From ole@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 00:01:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43A621F86BD for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:01:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v30gV+ysxLVY for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F9121F86C1 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:01:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=1364; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312182078; x=1313391678; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=iX9eXLIwgtDE9zGPDggXub1KPZ2JsqTPOsw4+E/3/VM=; b=U9MLOeS0k24Q0dfQr7smEibO20vxytlGvFwyymx6qlo+LoEV7YmRrePI US/AnWeYH4/ImJlb5hybqN3MBRHw5fEdLTCHPpuWFx4xPY64vcSwudKIC 80mlW9sFoebIiWvflmocqGF9nbqHfPiMEOkgg1rwfbu9uMJU5yhETNsIl I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmIOAGpONk6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbAA+A6dWDXeBQAEBAQEDAQEBDwECASQ0CxALRicwBhMih06iFQGDGg8BmkaDPoMEBIdalQ2HGA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,299,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8333398" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 07:01:17 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn2-931.cisco.com (sjc-vpn2-931.cisco.com [10.21.115.163]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7171GCo023163; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 07:01:17 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:01:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Randy Bush In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 07:01:13 -0000 And you know what: It was possible to get there by TRAIN (shudder) from Montreal. Admittedly, I made way too much noise about this option and the God of Railway responded with a 3+ hour delay and a complete replacement of the trainset, but those of us who took the trip (a few IETFers) very much enjoyed it. They even served decent food and wine, included in the ticket price. Regarding the lounge, I will suggest that we try to arrange for something similar at future venues. This is of course very much a "venue dependent feature", but we can try. Quebec City also has some amazing organs, I got to play on one from 1790 :=) Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Randy Bush wrote: > > +1. Very functional venue (the lounge was great!) > > i think the 'bump space', large lounge, large terminal room, were *very* > helpful and conducive to interaction. > > > no problems with wireless, great city > > good net, amazing town, and well done logistics. > > randy > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Mon Aug 1 00:14:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E3A21F8540 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:14:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.745 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.745 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.537, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTOJSMXRwuvn for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.knowthenet.org.uk (mx1.knowthenet.org.uk [213.248.199.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560DD21F8545 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:14:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:References: In-Reply-To:Accept-Language:Content-Language: X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:Content-Type: MIME-Version; b=rBFFhYKwZbs9eWXhQrwCovzgv2XxoSJwSlalpkwcEobc/AJcyKLRYkGb zmULnBlr/seljh8GhEXQuWiaV4ro7pS1Gznfu5FpOLy/zT8o/9eM3jFi3 gV1Mu3VWUnCpRwC; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1312182871; x=1343718871; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[81attendees]=20are=20we=20getting=20co mplacent?=20Good=20job!|Date:=20Mon,=201=20Aug=202011=200 7:14:26=20+0000|Message-ID:=20<9874B48E-1D92-4BAA-9BBD-F6 FB4EAB5374@nominet.org.uk>|To:=20"81attendees@ietf.org" =20<81attendees@ietf.org>|MIME-Version:=201.0 |In-Reply-To:=20|References:=20<4E34C3A9.20 20502@att.com>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A 6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20; bh=nBktaWD2JLFsF+4i3VoDc2h95N/qSOHX0fcqteTL+S0=; b=L9gmfBwcAkrnhVqUgSCt4dwoRjg8kYJdQZ0XfB1XLMCe4dTJ0v305e3I J//RUnnpSCnVYm+9SYKgoMYBqSN3vjULNoMM3bVPrSbcvIPvgSFTScwbf btwPNkgvwsVHjRd; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,299,1309734000"; d="scan'208,217";a="34466390" Received: from wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.145]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 08:14:27 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f]) by wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4%19]) with mapi; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:14:26 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AQHMTy0atj57J3tPW0G2CXFxSCDC/ZUG10zrgAAeQoCAAAcDgIAAcpyAgAAW/wA= Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 07:14:26 +0000 Message-ID: <9874B48E-1D92-4BAA-9BBD-F6FB4EAB5374@nominet.org.uk> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9874B48E1D924BAA9BBDF6FB4EAB5374nominetorguk_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 07:14:28 -0000 --_000_9874B48E1D924BAA9BBDF6FB4EAB5374nominetorguk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1 Aug 2011, at 01:52, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: Since Quebec City has direct flights to Montreal, Toronto, Newark and Chica= go, all of which are major intercontinental hubs, I'd say it has plenty of = international connections. However for many people two of those four require getting a transit VISA fo= r the US, in addition to any VISA required to enter Canada... Anyway, I find I'm easily able to forgive a little transit inconvenience su= ch as having to change planes in exchange for a highly productive meeting a= nd functional venue, and Quebec City certainly qualifies. +1 for the large meeting area in 2000ABC. Ray --_000_9874B48E1D924BAA9BBDF6FB4EAB5374nominetorguk_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <0ac5bb2b-ae3a-48d0-8534-8c788d55b488> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 1 Aug 2011, at 01:52= , Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:

Since Quebec City has d= irect flights to Montreal, Toronto, Newark and Chicago, all of which are ma= jor intercontinental hubs, I'd say it has plenty of international connectio= ns.

However for many people two of tho= se four require getting a transit VISA for the US, in addition to any VISA = required to enter Canada...

An= yway, I find I'm easily able to forgive a little transit inconvenience such= as having to change planes in exchange for a highly productive meeting and= functional venue, and Quebec City certainly qualifies.

+1 for the large meeting area in 2000ABC.  = ;

Ray


= --_000_9874B48E1D924BAA9BBDF6FB4EAB5374nominetorguk_-- From ole@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 05:30:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C330811E81D6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.991, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITcNGPVNZW1W for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A8811E81EC for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=1120; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312201846; x=1313411446; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=HfdjKd2osaNr3SMiI2hmSrQwgtGIrTXd46Y1NVLywNI=; b=hJe5T9sZ/obHLnCYnBiDGMP77Xr8sXgdt0CYsOuIlsMw1L0vsFraQn8m ZsZdB4LSyEniwcYqIYbHo9opkjoARZMgWdC741GZrMIEfkkAk8paJNxg5 inpZOYR/F4ygFVQDoQVm6D6BqDK/O9Voip8q0v+AcSJflP9zoaYKEHW1q E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0OALKbNk6rRDoI/2dsb2JhbAA+Aw6nRg13gUABAQEBAgESAQIBJD8FCwsYLlcGEyKHSqF7AYMaDwGbCIM+gwQEh1qVDYZBVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,300,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8410539" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 12:30:45 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn2-931.cisco.com (sjc-vpn2-931.cisco.com [10.21.115.163]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71CUik9029008; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:30:44 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:30:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Jim Rees In-Reply-To: <20110801121517.GB15299@merit.edu> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <20110801121517.GB15299@merit.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:30:39 -0000 ViaRail from Montreal to Quebec City. It also had power and WiFi. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Jim Rees wrote: > Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > And you know what: It was possible to get there by TRAIN (shudder) > from Montreal. Admittedly, I made way too much noise about this > option and the God of Railway responded with a 3+ hour delay and > a complete replacement of the trainset, but those of us who took > the trip (a few IETFers) very much enjoyed it. They even served decent > food and wine, included in the ticket price. > > What train were you on? I went by train from Windsor (next to Detroit). > Three separate trains, all comfortable and on time, less than half the cost > of flying. There was power at every seat and free high speed wireless > Internet service that worked most of the time. And no TSA goons. But no > free food or wine, just a snack cart. > From david.black@emc.com Mon Aug 1 06:07:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141EE21F9225 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eMKzjisPJbty for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20AD21F9213 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI01.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.54]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p71D7di2022071 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:07:39 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhub.lss.emc.com [10.254.222.226]) by hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:07:31 -0400 Received: from mxhub25.corp.emc.com (mxhub25.corp.emc.com [10.254.110.181]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p71D7U6U029868 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:07:30 -0400 Received: from mx14a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.245]) by mxhub25.corp.emc.com ([10.254.110.181]) with mapi; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:07:19 -0400 From: To: <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:07:18 -0400 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxPePPcfHCoahnfQgSOPmQOt0K52AA0ZpHg Message-ID: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> In-Reply-To: <4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:07:54 -0000 Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the venue,= the city, fireworks and Cirque! Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM > To: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >=20 > Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink and > fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical > problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and volunteers= . >=20 > Larissa >=20 > On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > > Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. > > > > Keith > > > > On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: > > > >> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at QC = this week? > >> > >> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. > >> > >> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos all = around. > >> > >> Tony Hansen > >> _______________________________________________ > >> 81attendees mailing list > >> 81attendees@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > _______________________________________________ > > 81attendees mailing list > > 81attendees@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >=20 >=20 > -- > Larissa Shapiro > Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager > Technology Leadership for the Common Good > +1 650 423 1335 > www.isc.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From spencer@wonderhamster.org Mon Aug 1 06:20:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8A211E8088 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:20:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5F03BozpDy9r for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21F511E8070 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from S73602b ([206.47.36.50]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M5uHB-1Rcgqv2rw9-00xfn3; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:20:03 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: , <81attendees@ietf.org> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com><4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:19:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:Xp8SOPlRinOwCtc2hR94pvY26LfX2w200Uc4gLgGZDe wv7K2LnlvzVrpkLaplE3PlPatG3TBXAbOCjWELFrsC57dZay5+ V/CG7x/52E3LL+h8Zl4BU26rq0W20VpSoT+3pKOKMfaZ9pvsmQ 57N77CR1KauaQNdHa+eLt31SKAYJEu8cuIs8D/p8t7TA5vC8TA Xf7LFY47y+9T1dtVNNVKmCM9QstAkSvrNVsvFymXQ0= Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:20:01 -0000 I suggested to Alexa and Ray that they update the host requirements to include fireworks and cirque de soleil ... Spencer > Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the > venue, the city, fireworks and Cirque! > > Thanks, > --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro >> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM >> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >> >> Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink and >> fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical >> problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and >> volunteers. >> >> Larissa >> >> On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >> > Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: >> > >> >> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at QC >> >> this week? >> >> >> >> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. >> >> >> >> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos all >> >> around. >> >> >> >> Tony Hansen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> 81attendees mailing list >> >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >> > _______________________________________________ >> > 81attendees mailing list >> > 81attendees@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >> >> >> -- >> Larissa Shapiro >> Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager >> Technology Leadership for the Common Good >> +1 650 423 1335 >> www.isc.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From damien.saucez@uclouvain.be Mon Aug 1 06:31:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617EC11E8089 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.718 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.718 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.509, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K4ZSFeiHujDY for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp5.sgsi.ucl.ac.be (smtp.sgsi.ucl.ac.be [130.104.5.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C0D11E8085 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sleipnier.dhcp.info.ucl.ac.be (sleipnier.dhcp.info.ucl.ac.be [130.104.228.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: dsaucez@smtp5.sgsi.ucl.ac.be) by smtp5.sgsi.ucl.ac.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9EA8811E34C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:31:05 +0200 (CEST) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 smtp5.sgsi.ucl.ac.be 9EA8811E34C DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=uclouvain.be; s=selucl; t=1312205465; bh=konu94HpWthcGTxYzi0Hsm3l69swaqF2sk4bvTqhmRg=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=EkMPdURdeeddvIjfOxupyDhgs2ZRNqI8c6YQLJ1SBvh2EVL6c26vMS1mDZIf8Naxp pY9zKRYmLKSAXTd50JMmyN8CCA/m+tRffR4qUXnK7KO/MCBITNtu4dLP/Vob//wVDX iQItbtLqC0LmBWQFGq+rhR5BYeVtyMQ4sjm27oTc= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Damien Saucez In-Reply-To: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:31:05 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> To: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97-exp at smtp-5.sipr-dc.ucl.ac.be X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Sgsi-Spamcheck: SASL authenticated, X-SGSI-MailScanner-ID: 9EA8811E34C.A0FE4 X-SGSI-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-SGSI-From: damien.saucez@uclouvain.be X-SGSI-Spam-Status: No Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:31:08 -0000 Gigantic kudos to the organizers! Damien Saucez On 01 Aug 2011, at 15:07, david.black@emc.com wrote: > Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the = venue, the city, fireworks and Cirque! >=20 > Thanks, > --David >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro >> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM >> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >>=20 >> Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink = and >> fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical >> problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and = volunteers. >>=20 >> Larissa >>=20 >> On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >>> Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. >>>=20 >>> Keith >>>=20 >>> On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at = QC this week? >>>>=20 >>>> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. >>>>=20 >>>> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos = all around. >>>>=20 >>>> Tony Hansen >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 81attendees mailing list >>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Larissa Shapiro >> Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager >> Technology Leadership for the Common Good >> +1 650 423 1335 >> www.isc.org >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >=20 > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de Mon Aug 1 06:33:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCB811E809B for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.681 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.681 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.822, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCH5eB7gR4wd for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de (mail.net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de [IPv6:2001:470:96b9:4:130:149:220:252]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2785411E8089 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyn100.net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de (dyn100.net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.220.100]) by mail.net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECA7701F36C; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:33:33 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Luigi Iannone In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:33:33 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <799BF0B8-9FA2-4E8C-B136-0E066A799553@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> To: Damien Saucez X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:33:31 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 15:31 , Damien Saucez wrote: > Gigantic kudos to the organizers! >=20 +1 L. > Damien Saucez >=20 > On 01 Aug 2011, at 15:07, david.black@emc.com wrote: >=20 >> Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the = venue, the city, fireworks and Cirque! >>=20 >> Thanks, >> --David >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro >>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM >>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >>>=20 >>> Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink = and >>> fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical >>> problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and = volunteers. >>>=20 >>> Larissa >>>=20 >>> On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >>>> Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. >>>>=20 >>>> Keith >>>>=20 >>>> On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at = QC this week? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos = all around. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Tony Hansen >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Larissa Shapiro >>> Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager >>> Technology Leadership for the Common Good >>> +1 650 423 1335 >>> www.isc.org >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 81attendees mailing list >>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >=20 > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From jonne.soininen@renesasmobile.com Mon Aug 1 06:56:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE4011E80A5 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:56:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bEOGGl5dLcWG for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail216.messagelabs.com (mail216.messagelabs.com [85.158.143.99]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F299121F8D25 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: jonne.soininen@renesasmobile.com X-Msg-Ref: server-7.tower-216.messagelabs.com!1312206995!13404482!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [213.174.82.11] Received: (qmail 18641 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2011 13:56:35 -0000 Received: from renexfe02.roe2.renesasmobile.com (HELO renexfe02.roe2.renesasmobile.com) (213.174.82.11) by server-7.tower-216.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 13:56:35 -0000 Received: from RENEXMB01.roe2.renesasmobile.com ([fe80::e58a:2b9f:54fe:ff5]) by renexfe02.roe2.renesasmobile.com ([fe80::e89f:c2cf:d14a:d1d7%17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:56:34 +0300 From: To: , Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxPePPcRx7Iv3PUgkiB0RlxXXaQ8gA0ZpHg///XH4CAAACxgIAAOLiA Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:56:34 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <799BF0B8-9FA2-4E8C-B136-0E066A799553@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> Accept-Language: en-US, da-DK Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.22.233] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6E35BC33DEFB3446A5374BD193D2DB4A@roe2.renesasmobile.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:56:33 -0000 +1 --=20 Jonne Soininen Renesas Mobile Tel: +358 40 527 4634 E-mail: jonne.soininen@renesasmobile.com On 8/1/11 4:33 PM, "Luigi Iannone" wrote: > >On Aug 1, 2011, at 15:31 , Damien Saucez wrote: > >> Gigantic kudos to the organizers! >>=20 > >+1 > >L. > > > >> Damien Saucez >>=20 >> On 01 Aug 2011, at 15:07, david.black@emc.com wrote: >>=20 >>> Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the >>>venue, the city, fireworks and Cirque! >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> --David >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org >>>>[mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM >>>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >>>>=20 >>>> Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink >>>>and >>>> fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical >>>> problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and >>>>volunteers. >>>>=20 >>>> Larissa >>>>=20 >>>> On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >>>>> Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Keith >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at >>>>>>QC this week? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos >>>>>>all around. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Tony Hansen >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Larissa Shapiro >>>> Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager >>>> Technology Leadership for the Common Good >>>> +1 650 423 1335 >>>> www.isc.org >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 81attendees mailing list >>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > >_______________________________________________ >81attendees mailing list >81attendees@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From rees@umich.edu Mon Aug 1 05:15:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969B021F8DD7 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.902, BAYES_40=-0.185, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UGnKiobSg9zc for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merit-proxy02.merit.edu (merit-proxy02.merit.edu [207.75.116.194]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735E521F8DDF for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 05:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by merit-proxy02.merit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6DE203987C; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:15:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at merit-proxy02.merit.edu Received: from merit-proxy02.merit.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (merit-proxy02.merit.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fXP4u1PO5VRE; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from merit.edu (74-126-0-171.static.123.net [74.126.0.171]) by merit-proxy02.merit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 86F66203987B; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:15:17 -0400 From: Jim Rees To: Ole Jacobsen Message-ID: <20110801121517.GB15299@merit.edu> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 07:20:41 -0700 Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:15:17 -0000 Ole Jacobsen wrote: And you know what: It was possible to get there by TRAIN (shudder) from Montreal. Admittedly, I made way too much noise about this option and the God of Railway responded with a 3+ hour delay and a complete replacement of the trainset, but those of us who took the trip (a few IETFers) very much enjoyed it. They even served decent food and wine, included in the ticket price. What train were you on? I went by train from Windsor (next to Detroit). Three separate trains, all comfortable and on time, less than half the cost of flying. There was power at every seat and free high speed wireless Internet service that worked most of the time. And no TSA goons. But no free food or wine, just a snack cart. From skh@ndzh.com Mon Aug 1 06:26:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A784721F8C96 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.408 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sjcIrfZ3XcAs for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (63-208-161-201.digitalrealm.net [63.208.161.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE0D21F8C94 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 06:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.196.22; Received: from SKHPERSONALLT (unverified [174.124.196.22]) by hickoryhill-consulting.com (SurgeMail 5.2a) with ESMTP id 2545651-1945496 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:26:46 -0400 From: "Susan Hares" To: <81attendees@ietf.org> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com><4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:26:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01e001cc504e$a806c970$f8145c50$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcxQTcG9QDKojsJOTTqKAWqyT0mFUAAALqhw Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 07:20:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:26:40 -0000 +1 fireworks, cirque de soleil. Lots of meeting and spare places for those "need to meet" times before/after wg. Good job! sue -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Spencer Dawkins Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:20 AM To: david.black@emc.com; 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! I suggested to Alexa and Ray that they update the host requirements to include fireworks and cirque de soleil ... Spencer > Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the > venue, the city, fireworks and Cirque! > > Thanks, > --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro >> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM >> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >> >> Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink and >> fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical >> problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and >> volunteers. >> >> Larissa >> >> On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >> > Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: >> > >> >> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at QC >> >> this week? >> >> >> >> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. >> >> >> >> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos all >> >> around. >> >> >> >> Tony Hansen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> 81attendees mailing list >> >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >> > _______________________________________________ >> > 81attendees mailing list >> > 81attendees@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >> >> >> -- >> Larissa Shapiro >> Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager >> Technology Leadership for the Common Good >> +1 650 423 1335 >> www.isc.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From johnl@iecc.com Mon Aug 1 08:06:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACFC21F8D06 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.665, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kCICOq-P3a4H for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A467F21F8D01 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22212 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2011 15:06:50 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=56c3.4e36c10a.k1108; bh=oQInnwh9G5GwXVy0EhGcVRb7qYZjxYCROQqfiDhDvEE=; b=KZKeC1QCXi/1ViusvvYwNNoTQn7N3UTes1XsAmRHtPzVB2zbnHn/hi4L+dbzQAdmpUWWVbtD0s4M6fylEoUknT21Wixo+bqDXn+yBbbHuX+gk4sycYTpk6vXcToiFVjU7o48EmdNhAMl6d8z5acanKjnFq2PYX5YBXg4oC460Vo= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 15:06:27 -0000 Date: 1 Aug 2011 11:06:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Joe Touch" In-Reply-To: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:06:45 -0000 > A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg Vancouver) Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in North America. Vancouver isn't. R's, John PS: The food's a lot better, too. From johnl@iecc.com Mon Aug 1 08:13:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7CA21F8D30 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:13:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.655, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83m0sS5bOInJ for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A4121F8B2C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22292 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2011 15:13:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=5713.4e36c296.k1108; bh=Q0AS6Nb5eGKGGwPwFn6wovyhg2KQAARY0y+8v+mtB4c=; b=Zfbsvaqa4IL8c9DlwQA1sOtzrj0UIk9w672kpXkjDeAH15vwRv5w3c6wPWRQ6lUMxaGOoux0bXNkupDSlvyqCOeFDhQ3O84ZFH/U4M1PqgbLNtCeddtosc7TCV9xEPZRN3eBO4x30c5dz6kgC11Bme6EwO0FG6ddPzs3/eyy48E= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 15:13:04 -0000 Date: 1 Aug 2011 11:13:24 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Spencer Dawkins" In-Reply-To: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com><4E3542AF.1090302@isc.org> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513B65@MX14A.corp.emc.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:13:21 -0000 > I suggested to Alexa and Ray that they update the host requirements to > include fireworks and cirque de soleil ... Good point. Also note that fireworks must be accessible by bicycle. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly From touch@isi.edu Mon Aug 1 08:14:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBA821F8D45 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.555, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xUg+NPWg4pKP for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.isi.edu (darkstar.isi.edu [128.9.128.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE75921F8D42 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.89] (pool-71-105-81-169.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.81.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by darkstar.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p71FDnOc017423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:13:52 -0700 (PDT) References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8J3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8J3) From: Joe Touch Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:13:57 -0700 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:14:03 -0000 On Jul 31, 2011, at 10:52 PM, "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrot= e: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Joe Touch >> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 4:02 PM >> To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) >> Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> >> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >>=20 >> -1 >>=20 >> A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg >> Vancouver) >=20 > Since Quebec City has direct flights to Montreal, Toronto, Newark and Chic= ago, all of which are major intercontinental hubs, I'd say it has plenty of i= nternational connections. An international hub would reach more than two other counties (the neighbori= ng one and France). Yes, there are connections to international hubs, but t= his isn't an international hub by any stretch. Traveling via train would hav= e required an overnight in Montreal - which I've never needed before for tra= vel to Europe or Japan. AFAICT this venue was preferred for its vacation qualities, not for business= reasons (see the early post on why this was selected over Vancouver). I hope future selections will focus on ease/speed of travel to the venue as w= ell as the meeting space and hotels. For me it was easier, cheaper, and near= ly as much time to get to Maastricht as would have been QC. If that persists= , I'll be glad to remind everyone that our primary forum is the email lists,= and take planes for true vacations instead. Joe= From touch@isi.edu Mon Aug 1 08:17:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3207611E807C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.296, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGHoBJ64ponR for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.isi.edu (darkstar.isi.edu [128.9.128.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EF321F8560 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.89] (pool-71-105-81-169.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.81.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by darkstar.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p71FHK4L018584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:17:24 -0700 (PDT) References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8J3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8J3) From: Joe Touch Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:17:29 -0700 To: "John R. Levine" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:17:55 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:06 AM, "John R. Levine" wrote: >> A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg Vancouv= er) >=20 > Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in North > America. Vancouver isn't. So is Trenton NJ - is at next? Do we optimize for drivers at the expense of f= liers? Joe= From david.black@emc.com Mon Aug 1 08:29:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EC021F8B6D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:29:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.877 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.668, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u2qQgv+7Vkz7 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE7B21F8B1E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si04.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI04.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.24]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p71FTYnK008968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:29:34 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhubhoprd03.lss.emc.com [10.254.221.145]) by hop04-l1d11-si04.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:26:19 -0400 Received: from mxhub01.corp.emc.com (mxhub01.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.103]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p71FQJGv027895; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:26:19 -0400 Received: from mx14a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.245]) by mxhub01.corp.emc.com ([10.254.141.103]) with mapi; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:26:18 -0400 From: To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:26:08 -0400 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxQXM9k6TeqDfWeSfelkt3O0oG1+AAAjK6w Message-ID: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589513C52@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:29:33 -0000 Yes, but ... unbeknownst to us, some significant fraction of Quebec left fo= r vacation on the Saturday after IETF. I hit a 90min wait at the Derby Lin= e border crossing (A-55/I-91) on the way south to Boston mid-day on Saturda= y, and the CBP officers there said that it was equally bad elsewhere. It w= as still a beautiful drive south through Vermont and NH. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of John R. Levine > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:07 AM > To: Joe Touch > Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >=20 > > A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg Vanco= uver) >=20 > Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in North > America. Vancouver isn't. >=20 > R's, > John >=20 > PS: The food's a lot better, too. > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From ole@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 08:39:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6557111E80D8 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.843 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.843 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.634, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iGz3e7kGN4b6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B4811E80C9 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:39:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=2448; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312213171; x=1313422771; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=VY6U0Qimc0vt9KqGEtldw0wfnUy0DRVdMbVbm5YPDNM=; b=Zpgr10NZnH2+JN8Lbe0+bUOvlTDrtkGEi3L8LWO6yN4Sy2+JfnmWlgs0 fNuR3ZVlsqr/dKiKWRUvnn7tkQdNjym8ArHqjfGxRUGMvADcK0LXWbAYD jeu1DKoTj4iR5znu+vL04VlS9J8utU505bkjc70sdaLPnP6MyVeV3F3wr Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AoUOANrHNk5Io8UQ/2dsb2JhbAA7AwMOmTKOFA13gUABAQEBAgEBAQEPAQIBAiIwBAsFCwtGJzAGEyKHSgShUgGDGg8BmxyDLw+DBASHWpAohGWGQVc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,301,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="45941131" Received: from bgl-core-1.cisco.com ([72.163.197.16]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 15:39:00 +0000 Received: from [10.27.1.132] (sjc-ole-8913.cisco.com [10.27.1.132]) by bgl-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71FcqTi023682; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:38:54 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:38:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:39:25 -0000 Joe, I don't think that saying this location "was preferred for its vacation qualities" is a fair characterization. The venue itself was certainly not selected for that reason. The survey basically said "we'd rather go to a new location than back to Vancouver." You could have flown from Chicago to QC, lots of folks did that. It is not particularly unusual for us to pick a venue in North America that will require a connecting flight for many people, gee Minneapolis comes to mind. The "international hub" argument would really severely limit our options for venues anywhere in the world. For starters many of these hubs are EXPENSIVE for all the expenses that we have to consider (venue rental, hotel etc). Hiroshima probably didn't seem that cheap, largely due to the poor performance of the dollar, but it was CONSIDERABLY cheaper than Tokyo or Yokohama would have been. That isn't why it was selected by the way, and, yes, it did indeed result in some additional "travel pain" (although I must say a number of people chose the worst option in spite of numerous recommendations). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Joe Touch wrote: > An international hub would reach more than two other counties (the > neighboring one and France). Yes, there are connections to > international hubs, but this isn't an international hub by any > stretch. Traveling via train would have required an overnight in > Montreal - which I've never needed before for travel to Europe or > Japan. > > AFAICT this venue was preferred for its vacation qualities, not for > business reasons (see the early post on why this was selected over > Vancouver). > > I hope future selections will focus on ease/speed of travel to the > venue as well as the meeting space and hotels. For me it was easier, > cheaper, and nearly as much time to get to Maastricht as would have > been QC. If that persists, I'll be glad to remind everyone that our > primary forum is the email lists, and take planes for true vacations > instead. > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > From johnl@iecc.com Mon Aug 1 08:41:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5BB11E80F1 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.645, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gA1y30WuupU8 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D29411E80C9 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22498 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2011 15:41:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=57e1.4e36c917.k1108; bh=EFjzY5cLR9u9CGdjRF+ZeLtT25zw/741ySz5OZDpCBY=; b=4edfq49bSiUBwXJZWRBKZBbUTDNNMPKSmmvD22mgJrjhtrDowRmzXz79c+YtzFc6TPpGjCKl4QKPxTaYlp1+SyfyVyM3uDHrNNyVTrl3bgWj6rEnLRGyQkQpMnFQkFU4c8RCPz3SZ0t7Ey6ZGEDxRs8L60dK2APkeBnRwA/fnSo= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 15:40:49 -0000 Date: 1 Aug 2011 11:41:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Joe Touch" In-Reply-To: <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="3825401791-722933961-1312213271=:3518" Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:41:07 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --3825401791-722933961-1312213271=:3518 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE >> Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in Nort= h >> America. Vancouver isn't. > > So is Trenton NJ - is at next? Do we optimize for drivers at the expense = of fliers? Well, gee. Trenton has excellent train service from three separate=20 carriers (Amtrak, NJ Transit, and SEPTA), and frequent reliable rail=20 connections to two major international airports, EWR, and PHL. Meeting=20 and hotel space are cheap, and there are some hoagie shops that wouldn't=20 kill you. Washington's Crossing, Princeton, New Hope PA, and the Jersey=20 Shore* are quick side trips. But perhaps ease of transportation for people from Los Angeles isn't the=20 only relevant criterion. I like Qu=C3=A9bec better. R's, John * - where I am now, and most of which is way nicer than you might think if= =20 you watch TV --3825401791-722933961-1312213271=:3518-- From acmorton@att.com Mon Aug 1 08:58:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E2911E8090 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.354, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7F0IunB+KTU for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail119.messagelabs.com (mail119.messagelabs.com [216.82.241.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6875211E8077 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 08:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-2.tower-119.messagelabs.com!1312214296!18323505!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.145] Received: (qmail 15272 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2011 15:58:17 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.145) by server-2.tower-119.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 15:58:17 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p71FwgxJ015164 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:58:42 -0400 Received: from alpd052.aldc.att.com (alpd052.aldc.att.com [130.8.42.31]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p71FwY3q015017 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:58:35 -0400 Received: from aldc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p71Fw8VK029439 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:58:08 -0400 Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p71Fw4kh029278 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:58:04 -0400 Message-Id: <201108011558.p71Fw4kh029278@alpd052.aldc.att.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (vpn-135-70-148-100.vpn.mwst.att.com[135.70.148.100](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20110801155803gw100e4lo3e>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:58:03 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.148.100] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 11:58:49 -0400 To: "John R. Levine" , "Joe Touch" From: Al Morton In-Reply-To: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:58:12 -0000 At 11:41 AM 8/1/2011, John R. Levine wrote:
...Princeton, New Hope PA, an= d the Jersey Shore* are quick side trips.
<snip>
* - where I am now, and most of which is way nicer than you might think if you watch TV

+1, and from what I can tell, the

Qu=E9b=E9cois

are headed our way...

From touch@isi.edu Mon Aug 1 09:40:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACA121F8C40 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.673 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.673 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.536, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LfV2PFM8yB6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E22D21F8C36 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.252] (pen.isi.edu [128.9.160.252]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p71GeY0B019589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:40:33 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Levine" References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:40:59 -0000 On 8/1/2011 8:41 AM, John R. Levine wrote: >>> Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in >>> North >>> America. Vancouver isn't. NA = 530M Canada - Quebec province = 26M Eastern US states within dist = (all in millions) CT = 3.5 ME = 1.3 MA = 6.4 NH = 1.3 NY = 19 RI = 1 VT = 0.6 Some major cities out of dist: NYC (8hrs) = 8 Boston (6 hrs) = 4 i.e., 21.1M possibly within dist That's a total of 47.1M out of 530M Not even 10%, and that includes a LOT of places nobody would ever drive from. Agreed that Vancouver is even less useful for driving (under 7M), but how many attendees drove (not just from nearby airports)? Joe From cvillamizar@infinera.com Mon Aug 1 09:54:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9841521F8F28 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4WhXEGRpz0Xh for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-CASHT-PROD3.infinera.com (sv-casht-prod3.infinera.com [8.4.225.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CEB21F8F26 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com ([fe80::dc68:4e20:6002:a8f9]) by SV-CASHT-PROD3.infinera.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0289.001; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:54:57 -0700 From: Curtis Villamizar To: Joe Touch , "John R. Levine" Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AQHMUGnRp5iCnzhmnUewGMVTmFXr4JUINAvA Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:54:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.100.99.21] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:54:51 -0000 Joe, A lot of people drove from more than 6 hours away. The plane flights with = the stop from Boston were 4.5-5.5 hours air time so driving was slightly fa= ster from Boston or for anyone that would have used Logan airport. The tim= e would be about the same for anyone that would have flown out of Providenc= e RI and maybe Hartford CT. I drove but did so partially for the scenic dr= ive through northern Maine (much better than VT and NH highways). Regardless of whether people drove from Boston or not, ability to drive to = the venue from New England should not be criteria for picking an IETF. Curtis > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:41 AM > To: John R. Levine > Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/1/2011 8:41 AM, John R. Levine wrote: > >>> Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in > >>> North > >>> America. Vancouver isn't. >=20 > NA =3D 530M >=20 > Canada - Quebec province =3D 26M > Eastern US states within dist =3D (all in millions) > CT =3D 3.5 > ME =3D 1.3 > MA =3D 6.4 > NH =3D 1.3 > NY =3D 19 > RI =3D 1 > VT =3D 0.6 >=20 > Some major cities out of dist: > NYC (8hrs) =3D 8 > Boston (6 hrs) =3D 4 >=20 > i.e., 21.1M possibly within dist >=20 > That's a total of 47.1M out of 530M >=20 > Not even 10%, and that includes a LOT of places nobody would ever drive > from. >=20 > Agreed that Vancouver is even less useful for driving (under 7M), but > how many attendees drove (not just from nearby airports)? >=20 > Joe >=20 > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From bschlies@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 09:57:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A155921F85EC for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.462, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bv5Z5adEkePD for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6E421F8F28 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=bschlies@cisco.com; l=1628; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312217860; x=1313427460; h=date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IsWKM6WNR+1WL1yEgYB3Vdk2jA1ve2Xkcbpr7IQRCGk=; b=BiHbyq7XhNKnoQGOF1rXW+2w8seJhA8DIoI4d85cWCp7qyk/5717dMU8 iyBn4QZEbCYfhP2ELETCfc5kS7wcVVkyp2KNAlVirH3vKYPXO+PiEEOOc co52K/nic7A7uSXb6PqdYLE8hZceYu6Nsp4YZAfVYnBZpjAKEcrzDaKhG 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai8OAM/ZNk6tJXHB/2dsb2JhbABBDqdGDXeBQAEBAQECAQEBAQkGASkBKQgLEgEIGFUwAQEEAQ0FIodKBKFIAZ5MhkIEhysviyGFEIsdVQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,301,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8495825" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 16:57:39 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com [72.163.62.139]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71GvdiB009810; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:57:39 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-206.cisco.com ([72.163.62.213]) by xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:57:39 -0500 Received: from 10.21.122.15 ([10.21.122.15]) by XMB-RCD-206.cisco.com ([72.163.62.213]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([128.107.191.32]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:57:39 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.30.0.110427 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:00:15 -0500 From: Benson Schliesser To: Joe Touch , "John R. Levine" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxQbHvDeUfRRGgMN0S/RvOBuGcd7A== In-Reply-To: <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2011 16:57:39.0423 (UTC) FILETIME=[1F084EF0:01CC506C] Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:57:33 -0000 If this is how we're going to think about it, then... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_center_of_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe Asia is a bit more complicated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Asia Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia - "There are several places that claim to be the geographic center of Asia, for example Kyzyl, the capital of Tuva in the Russian Federation, and a village 200 miles (320 km= ) north of =DCr=FCmqi, the capital of the Xinjiang region of China." :) Cheers, -Benson On 8/1/11 11:40 AM, "Joe Touch" wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 8/1/2011 8:41 AM, John R. Levine wrote: >>>> Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in >>>> North >>>> America. Vancouver isn't. >=20 > NA =3D 530M >=20 > Canada - Quebec province =3D 26M > Eastern US states within dist =3D (all in millions) > CT =3D 3.5 > ME =3D 1.3 > MA =3D 6.4 > NH =3D 1.3 > NY =3D 19 > RI =3D 1 > VT =3D 0.6 >=20 > Some major cities out of dist: > NYC (8hrs) =3D 8 > Boston (6 hrs) =3D 4 >=20 > i.e., 21.1M possibly within dist >=20 > That's a total of 47.1M out of 530M >=20 > Not even 10%, and that includes a LOT of places nobody would ever drive > from. >=20 > Agreed that Vancouver is even less useful for driving (under 7M), but > how many attendees drove (not just from nearby airports)? >=20 > Joe >=20 > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From touch@isi.edu Mon Aug 1 09:57:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7D911E8114 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.687 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.687 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.478, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3LCHrIVaty9 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.isi.edu (darkstar.isi.edu [128.9.128.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A437411E810D for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.252] (pen.isi.edu [128.9.160.252]) (authenticated bits=0) by darkstar.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p71GvZGb018155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E36DAFF.1050704@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:57:35 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Curtis Villamizar References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:57:50 -0000 On 8/1/2011 9:54 AM, Curtis Villamizar wrote: > Joe, > > A lot of people drove from more than 6 hours away. Even if they did, the numbers still don't add up, though. Joe From carlos@lacnic.net Mon Aug 1 10:08:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F9211E812A for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:08:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.791, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oxbxV47rDl-P for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FFD11E8127 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blancanieves.local (r190-64-198-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.64.198.108]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A18930845F; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:08:26 -0300 (UYT) Message-ID: <4E36DD6C.1070005@lacnic.net> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:07:56 -0300 From: "Carlos M. Martinez" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110715 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benson Schliesser References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010205050606010503050006" X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: carlos@lacnic.net Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:08:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010205050606010503050006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think the geographical discussion is kind of missing the point. - The venue was great - The city was awesome - Organization & logistics were also great - Flying to Quebec was reasonable. Maybe my perception is skewed, but I didn't find the connections to QC unnaceptable. There are flights every 1 hr or so from YUL, and YUL has connections to almost everywhere in the world. I don´t find flying three legs that bad as many people do. Again, I hardly ever travel less than two legs to get anywhere, so flying three is not bad. I have had to do much, much worse than that for other less friendly destinations. My kudoz to the local hosts as well as the organization in general. Carlos On 8/1/11 2:00 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote: > If this is how we're going to think about it, then... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_center_of_the_United_States > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe > > Asia is a bit more complicated. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Asia > > Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia - "There are several places > that claim to be the geographic center of Asia, for example Kyzyl, the > capital of Tuva in the Russian Federation, and a village 200 miles (320 km) > north of Ürümqi, the capital of the Xinjiang region of China." > > :) > > Cheers, > -Benson > > > > On 8/1/11 11:40 AM, "Joe Touch" wrote: > >> >> On 8/1/2011 8:41 AM, John R. Levine wrote: >>>>> Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in >>>>> North >>>>> America. Vancouver isn't. >> NA = 530M >> >> Canada - Quebec province = 26M >> Eastern US states within dist = (all in millions) >> CT = 3.5 >> ME = 1.3 >> MA = 6.4 >> NH = 1.3 >> NY = 19 >> RI = 1 >> VT = 0.6 >> >> Some major cities out of dist: >> NYC (8hrs) = 8 >> Boston (6 hrs) = 4 >> >> i.e., 21.1M possibly within dist >> >> That's a total of 47.1M out of 530M >> >> Not even 10%, and that includes a LOT of places nobody would ever drive >> from. >> >> Agreed that Vancouver is even less useful for driving (under 7M), but >> how many attendees drove (not just from nearby airports)? >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees -- Carlos M. Martinez LACNIC I+D PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2 Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419 --------------010205050606010503050006 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="carlos.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="carlos.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Carlos Martinez Cagnazzo n:Martinez Cagnazzo;Carlos email;internet:carlos@lacnic.net tel;work:+598-2604-2222 tel;cell:+598-9-9245009 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --------------010205050606010503050006-- From nurit.sprecher@nsn.com Mon Aug 1 10:13:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2325A11E810D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.732, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9GDIuIilq5EJ for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD9A11E80FD for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p71HDmpW030663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:13:48 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC048.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.32.94]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p71HDmNU011645; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:13:48 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.25]) by DEMUEXC048.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:13:17 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:13:14 +0200 Message-ID: <077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A53264043598A3@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxPePPcRx7Iv3PUgkiB0RlxXXaQ8gA0ZpHg///XH4CAAACxgIAAOLiA///S3eA= References: <799BF0B8-9FA2-4E8C-B136-0E066A799553@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2011 17:13:17.0969 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E731010:01CC506E] Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:13:53 -0000 +1 -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext jonne.soininen@renesasmobile.com Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 4:57 PM To: luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de; damien.saucez@uclouvain.be Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! +1 --=20 Jonne Soininen Renesas Mobile Tel: +358 40 527 4634 E-mail: jonne.soininen@renesasmobile.com On 8/1/11 4:33 PM, "Luigi Iannone" wrote: > >On Aug 1, 2011, at 15:31 , Damien Saucez wrote: > >> Gigantic kudos to the organizers! >>=20 > >+1 > >L. > > > >> Damien Saucez >>=20 >> On 01 Aug 2011, at 15:07, david.black@emc.com wrote: >>=20 >>> Big +1 - future organizers are going to have a hard time topping the >>>venue, the city, fireworks and Cirque! >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> --David >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org >>>>[mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larissa Shapiro >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:55 AM >>>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >>>>=20 >>>> Indeed. The location was really truly lovely - such good food drink >>>>and >>>> fun options so near the venue. Never had a network or logistical >>>> problem. You are all deeply appreciated, secretariat staff and >>>>volunteers. >>>>=20 >>>> Larissa >>>>=20 >>>> On 7/31/11 12:28 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >>>>> Agreed. Excellent job, folks. And I quite enjoyed the location. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Keith >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Tony Hansen wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Are we getting complacent about the excellent job that was done at >>>>>>QC this week? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Other than prices and cookies, everything else went very well. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Kudos on the great network. Kudos on the secretariat staff. Kudos >>>>>>all around. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Tony Hansen >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Larissa Shapiro >>>> Internet Systems Consortium Product Manager >>>> Technology Leadership for the Common Good >>>> +1 650 423 1335 >>>> www.isc.org >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> 81attendees mailing list >>>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 81attendees mailing list >>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > >_______________________________________________ >81attendees mailing list >81attendees@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From randy@psg.com Mon Aug 1 10:19:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E134811E8113 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.611, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylqoXGhGs60i for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356A611E80AB for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rair.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnw9Y-0003ze-UA; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:19:45 +0000 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 02:19:43 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Benson Schliesser In-Reply-To: References: <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:19:44 -0000 > If this is how we're going to think about it, then... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_center_of_the_United_States > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Asia http://www.fremontseattle.com/centeroftheuniverse.html From bschlies@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 10:21:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7333F11E8139 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:21:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntOkddu6CMzs for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E56911E812C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=bschlies@cisco.com; l=715; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312219316; x=1313428916; h=date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9pj18fs+sDkbyb0Lhe8qNjByvjx8EIJQZUhiJGvEt34=; b=JLf6PmeD9UBOkiWhlrugtdTEg8lLeEUk9XyE5ZEa5lKAh3bHPYr5yvhB vVgagRlG2309fWQ+wTKdF70hg8pY+CvQzAFLmCO7kITnlGLoyyOuWxD1P fFu1q04xLXO2izHCJZ5yHyu6PhWL2vgZQ+B2pcxjQ755PnKdgGPNPd1vv s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0OAGHgNk6tJXG+/2dsb2JhbABBp1QNd4FAAQEBAQIBEgEnAgEzCQUNAQiBHQEBBA4FIodKoUkBnlmGQgSHWoshhRCLcg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,301,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8506966" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 17:21:55 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com [72.163.62.200]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71HLtHE022438; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:21:55 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-206.cisco.com ([72.163.62.213]) by xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:21:55 -0500 Received: from 10.21.122.15 ([10.21.122.15]) by XMB-RCD-206.cisco.com ([72.163.62.213]) via Exchange Front-End Server email.cisco.com ([128.107.191.114]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:21:55 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.30.0.110427 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:24:32 -0500 From: Benson Schliesser To: "Carlos M. Martinez" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxQb+A0eXHXQ7V5206uQJ0gnfw+3Q== In-Reply-To: <4E36DD6C.1070005@lacnic.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2011 17:21:55.0255 (UTC) FILETIME=[82C6A470:01CC506F] Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:21:51 -0000 On 8/1/11 12:07 PM, "Carlos M. Martinez" wrote: > I think the geographical discussion is kind of missing the point. I agree - I was trying to joke. (email is a bad medium for sarcasm; sorry.) > - The venue was great > - The city was awesome > - Organization & logistics were also great Definitely, 100% on these comments. I look forward to visiting Quebec again. > - Flying to Quebec was reasonable. Maybe my perception is skewed, but I > didn't find the connections to QC unnaceptable. Quebec airport didn't have as many options as I would have liked. But it was adequate, and we all managed the trip ok - good tradeoff to visit a beautiful city. Cheers, -Benson From merike@doubleshotsecurity.com Mon Aug 1 10:27:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FC11E8139 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:27:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xs3Ei3sWbXgX for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213A311E811E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.106.104.211] ([108.60.46.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p71HRIfA003227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:27:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Merike Kaeo In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:27:31 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2553D193-4059-4AA1-9E2A-53CABF1FBCFF@doubleshotsecurity.com> References: <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:27:21 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Randy Bush wrote: >> If this is how we're going to think about it, then... >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_center_of_the_United_States >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Asia >=20 > http://www.fremontseattle.com/centeroftheuniverse.html LOL - since I lived there (and now only a mile away) I will attest to = Fremont in Seattle being the center of the universe :) And please = don't anyone shatter my illusion! And since I'm already typing...great job on venue and organization. I = think Quebec was a place that easily combined constructive work = collaboration and plenty of outside activities to de-compress for a few = hours when needed. - merike > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >=20 From lufang@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 10:29:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19AC21F8CBE for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.694, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AgdhV2B+fP4w for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F1421F8CBC for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:29:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=lufang@cisco.com; l=1177; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312219797; x=1313429397; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=Bax6WakN/42ZZY7GHyauF0/WvWFSInfnhOCbC2cKRxs=; b=P1GlyMwy6EohgQioOH/bMJC9N74ajUNUOyA4+c6X+ImqR2k/WqVA422F dp1/34z8XPLYSNLMTrwDI7MYK6z2PPs1vE+z1eUCfEbhM7Rh/vSrtMgVW rkLcQ1UauHc5AgCj92X1DJhpjETR69TQrugGKB9wxqq9YWtZLDmMwnOGQ k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AucCABPiNk6tJV2Z/2dsb2JhbABBmA2PRw13gUABAQEBAgEBAQEPAR0KNAIJBQcEAgEIEQQBAQsGFwEGASYfCQgBAQQBEggah0oEoUABnluFY18Eh1qQMYty X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,301,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8509702" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 17:29:57 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com [72.163.62.138]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71HTv9I009047; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:29:57 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:29:56 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:29:54 -0500 Message-ID: <238542D917511A45B6B8AA806E875E25068B9BD7@XMB-RCD-201.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxQb+A0eXHXQ7V5206uQJ0gnfw+3QAAKzaw References: <4E36DD6C.1070005@lacnic.net> From: "Luyuan Fang (lufang)" To: "Benson Schliesser (bschlies)" , "Carlos M. Martinez" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2011 17:29:56.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1B69B00:01CC5070] Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:29:50 -0000 +1 -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benson Schliesser (bschlies) Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 1:25 PM To: Carlos M. Martinez Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! On 8/1/11 12:07 PM, "Carlos M. Martinez" wrote: > I think the geographical discussion is kind of missing the point. I agree - I was trying to joke. (email is a bad medium for sarcasm; sorry.) > - The venue was great > - The city was awesome > - Organization & logistics were also great Definitely, 100% on these comments. I look forward to visiting Quebec again. > - Flying to Quebec was reasonable. Maybe my perception is skewed, but I > didn't find the connections to QC unnaceptable. Quebec airport didn't have as many options as I would have liked. But it was adequate, and we all managed the trip ok - good tradeoff to visit a beautiful city. Cheers, -Benson _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From charliep@computer.org Mon Aug 1 10:54:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD11611E8114 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9fkQ7oJIKx5T for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328AA11E8077 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [138.111.58.2] (helo=[172.17.96.56]) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnwh9-0005tw-PU for 81attendees@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:54:27 -0400 Message-ID: <4E36E851.2040103@computer.org> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:54:25 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Wichorus Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E36DD6C.1070005@lacnic.net> <238542D917511A45B6B8AA806E875E25068B9BD7@XMB-RCD-201.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <238542D917511A45B6B8AA806E875E25068B9BD7@XMB-RCD-201.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 137d7d78656ed6919973fd6a8f21c4f2d780f4a490ca6956d5d4673fe7faad86e02052a32fc7138c5ec36243937ae816350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 138.111.58.2 Subject: [81attendees] Simple feedback rating system?? X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: charliep@computer.org List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:54:26 -0000 Hello folks, Except for the issue I raised at the plenary, I also very much enjoyed the venue and had a successful week at the IETF. I wonder if it makes sense to have an online poll for all the "+1"s with columns for various aspects -- something like Doodle except not for scheduling. So, I could imagine: Venue Refreshments Travel Fireworks name1 +1 +1 0 +1 name2 +1 0 0 +1 anonymous 0 -1 -1 ... ... where blank == "Not applicable", and people are responsible for filling in their names. Anyway, just an idea. Could be extended to be much more complicated, but I think keeping it simple would be better, to get as many ratings as possible. There should probably at least also be an "overall" column, and the "fireworks" column was supposed to be :-). Regards, Charlie P. From coverdale@sympatico.ca Mon Aug 1 11:02:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE0E21F8B7B for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:02:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.406 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.406 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sawmJA8IIde5 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s18.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s18.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.157]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9084121F8B02 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU0-SMTP35 ([65.55.111.136]) by blu0-omc4-s18.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:02:38 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [67.70.129.154] X-Originating-Email: [coverdale@sympatico.ca] Message-ID: Received: from PaulNewPC ([67.70.129.154]) by BLU0-SMTP35.phx.gbl over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:02:36 -0700 From: Paul Coverdale To: <81attendees@ietf.org> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:02:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcxQadYPqmetxCN9Rua5Aove/8oZPgACtapw Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2011 18:02:36.0809 (UTC) FILETIME=[320E3790:01CC5075] Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:02:32 -0000 Don't know why everybody's complaining about the difficulty in getting to Quebec City. Samuel de Champlain managed it in 1608, and I bet there were even fewer direct flights than there are now, and not so many highways either. >-----Original Message----- >From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] >On Behalf Of Joe Touch >Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 12:41 PM >To: John R. Levine >Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> >Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! > > > >On 8/1/2011 8:41 AM, John R. Levine wrote: >>>> Quebec is within driving distance of about 1/4 of the population in >>>> North >>>> America. Vancouver isn't. > >NA = 530M > >Canada - Quebec province = 26M >Eastern US states within dist = (all in millions) > CT = 3.5 > ME = 1.3 > MA = 6.4 > NH = 1.3 > NY = 19 > RI = 1 > VT = 0.6 > > Some major cities out of dist: > NYC (8hrs) = 8 > Boston (6 hrs) = 4 > > i.e., 21.1M possibly within dist > >That's a total of 47.1M out of 530M > >Not even 10%, and that includes a LOT of places nobody would ever drive >from. > >Agreed that Vancouver is even less useful for driving (under 7M), but >how many attendees drove (not just from nearby airports)? > >Joe > >_______________________________________________ >81attendees mailing list >81attendees@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From ole@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 11:41:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F95B11E8150 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:41:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.955, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nkKUK90ofYOl for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984A611E8144 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:41:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=305; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312224082; x=1313433682; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=v3LQowTh4tNMRshXbX+Ej8THID6OvcGcmR8HAJC9LmE=; b=FpMvfhDZr+fvvMVpKq5uQHWFkM89VMtoW17VReFqL3nlyr2mK9slyyhp g4MJ+89akFdxipVwHf4Drr8OA5xDaN7kzuo7QENzOD38n5Mukwm0QLC97 ooDB8uMYwbaBOQ4rK/O7GGHp+T5hw/Jd+Xyvj5P4knKdIirxkeyl56hV2 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah8QAHDyNk6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA+A5k/jhMNd4FAAQEBAQMSAQIBJD8QC0ZXBhMiqTABgxoPAZswgz6DBASHWpAohGWHGA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,301,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8532733" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 18:41:22 +0000 Received: from [10.27.1.132] (sjc-ole-8913.cisco.com [10.27.1.132]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71IfLFa014122; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:41:21 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:41:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: "Carlos M. Martinez" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] ***SPAM*** 8.854 (5) Re: are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:41:16 -0000 And that's not spam! ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Carlos M. Martinez wrote: > :D +1 > From lberger@labn.net Mon Aug 1 12:43:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB54511E8147 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.469, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FsWQxsKVBAtw for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oproxy9.bluehost.com (oproxy9.bluehost.com [69.89.24.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DBE0B11E8132 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9881 invoked by uid 0); 1 Aug 2011 16:56:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box313.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.113) by oproxy9.bluehost.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 16:56:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=tCzbnuYjYqx31qFY3BfN9WapgdDKIGrlWo8uskO20Ro=; b=t0cyjPTzLjL0h0zjFB1UUBPouS42aHaW4ecQ7O3+lfKekr3cXUDN/WDFefUHusttU7lR8cavMdG8bnsuiiORVKNduKqWOEJby8KLFty/QGwjP92m304q6Y3+f83sStyf; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1QnvnB-0006Qg-A3; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:56:37 -0600 Message-ID: <4E36DAC9.2020702@labn.net> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:56:41 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 19:43:10 -0000 While I 100% agree with all the positive things said about the venue, city, sponsors, and staff, I have to agree with Joe on the following: > AFAICT this venue was preferred for its vacation qualities, not for > business reasons (see the early post on why this was selected over > Vancouver). Going to tourist locations during high season seems to becoming a more common habit for the IETF. While some families enjoy trips to Disney and interesting locations, this is not while many/most of us go to the IETF. It seems to me that something has gone wrong with the IETF location optimization algorithm. It would interesting to hear about upcoming locations that were mention last week to see if this suspicion is reinforced or discounted... Lou On 8/1/2011 11:13 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On Jul 31, 2011, at 10:52 PM, "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrote: > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch >>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 4:02 PM >>> To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) >>> Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> >>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >>> >>> -1 >>> >>> A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg >>> Vancouver) >> >> Since Quebec City has direct flights to Montreal, Toronto, Newark >> and Chicago, all of which are major intercontinental hubs, I'd say >> it has plenty of international connections. > > An international hub would reach more than two other counties (the > neighboring one and France). Yes, there are connections to > international hubs, but this isn't an international hub by any > stretch. Traveling via train would have required an overnight in > Montreal - which I've never needed before for travel to Europe or > Japan. > > AFAICT this venue was preferred for its vacation qualities, not for > business reasons (see the early post on why this was selected over > Vancouver). > > I hope future selections will focus on ease/speed of travel to the > venue as well as the meeting space and hotels. For me it was easier, > cheaper, and nearly as much time to get to Maastricht as would have > been QC. If that persists, I'll be glad to remind everyone that our > primary forum is the email lists, and take planes for true vacations > instead. > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > > > From richard@shockey.us Mon Aug 1 12:49:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A007811E8155 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.439, BAYES_40=-0.185, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnfXKcs-C5B6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oproxy8-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy8-pub.bluehost.com [69.89.22.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1341611E813A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16611 invoked by uid 0); 1 Aug 2011 19:49:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box462.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.62) by oproxy8.bluehost.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2011 19:49:25 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shockey.us; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From; bh=MJlaTcD66C22eGZRe6MeMqQzHX9+YqVt5IsRT+h7uQQ=; b=btBW0n2HJhfOey9p1dVodGV2BuGLrtJb48vBSMPqZT6+fhDxeN3gz+OsEvTLuyd5WQJSBblGx7bI2lPdfsJj39LMq1UPkS/yPQKMJe50ta/NsQIuahGRFcWw80R4ev6H; Received: from pool-71-178-24-118.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([71.178.24.118] helo=RSHOCKEYPC) by box462.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1QnyUO-00016b-OT; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:49:25 -0600 From: "Richard Shockey" To: "'Benson Schliesser'" , "'Carlos M. Martinez'" References: <4E36DD6C.1070005@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:49:21 -0400 Message-ID: <004401cc5084$1c5046f0$54f0d4d0$@us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcxQb+A0eXHXQ7V5206uQJ0gnfw+3QAE/amg Content-Language: en-us X-Identified-User: {3286:box462.bluehost.com:shockeyu:shockey.us} {sentby:smtp auth 71.178.24.118 authed with richard@shockey.us} Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 19:49:18 -0000 > I think the geographical discussion is kind of missing the point. I agree - I was trying to joke. (email is a bad medium for sarcasm; sorry.) > - The venue was great > - The city was awesome > - Organization & logistics were also great Definitely, 100% on these comments. I look forward to visiting Quebec again. +1 more Foie Gras From david.kessens@nsn.com Mon Aug 1 13:10:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF0721F8BF4 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qH+FUC0A6ypG for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E3D21F8BEE for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p71KAXvI032436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:10:33 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([10.138.51.235]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p71KAWjF002641; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:10:33 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (X1 [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p71KAVxX028836; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:10:31 -0700 Received: (from david@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p71KATOV028828; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:10:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: david set sender to david.kessens@nsn.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:10:29 -0700 From: David Kessens To: Paul Coverdale Message-ID: <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:10:29 -0000 Paul, On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 02:02:29PM -0400, Paul Coverdale wrote: > Don't know why everybody's complaining about the difficulty in getting to > Quebec City. Samuel de Champlain managed it in 1608, and I bet there were > even fewer direct flights than there are now, and not so many highways > either. It might have helped that he didn't fly aircanada and he didn't have to wait in the canadian immigration and us immigration line. David Kessens --- From moore@network-heretics.com Mon Aug 1 13:38:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090491F0C3D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.276 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.276 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IucftiDnIT5p for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962D51F0C40 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [65.16.145.177] (helo=host65-16-145-177.birch.net) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1QnzFh-0004gi-Kt; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:38:17 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:38:15 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> To: David Kessens X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 867ef52fd101ecb3d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940cd4d070f9d2ce4217493bf67fd221c70350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.16.145.177 Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:38:14 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 4:10 PM, David Kessens wrote: > It might have helped that he didn't fly aircanada and he didn't have = to wait > in the canadian immigration and us immigration line. I had no problem with Air Canada, but the security screening for the US = immigration line in Montreal seemed a bit understaffed. And the = Canadian screeners were thorough. =20 (I was impressed to see how much better a job they do at screening than = the US TSA does, using basically the same procedures and equipment. = Attention to detail makes all the difference. And the screeners were = polite, not surly.) But then I consider the problems that many attendees have traveling to = or transiting through the US, and by comparison, I don't think having to = wait in line in Montreal is worth complaining about. I made my = connecting flight, or maybe they held it for me, since I was the last = one to arrive at the gate and they were clearly expecting me... kudos to = Air Canada if that's what happened.=20 Seriously, given that we're committed to having meetings all over the = world, do these details really rise to the level of things that the = planning staff needs to think about? Keith From gettysjim@gmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:58:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1B01F0C47 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:58:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2uo7MIb3HwXU for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35931F0C39 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so5725239vws.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:58:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=duVAPInbO9wFyPr2U3qNOgl/u9EvKP0MDxa4n1NEIKI=; b=k46HX3sismRqBS5nWbFyD3EhFNlCfS1pcPwL3Sqe+4KZot3ajneBpWco5BRjnIEkjv xGIWXNRsBv6e/qF0IT1R3XTkb1gRD+11/ZvE5nR2ztysEkympSUYf7auG8KWEfXGpjwX vyAq24llwT8OmAOEMwOWu6vnIe9ZlNXWHkhoU= Received: by 10.52.93.201 with SMTP id cw9mr5138871vdb.250.1312232307309; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.3] (c-24-218-177-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.177.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n21sm1993574vcn.31.2011.08.01.13.58.24 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jim Gettys Message-ID: <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:58:24 -0400 From: Jim Gettys Organization: Bell Labs User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110627 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maciek Konstantynowicz References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090004030609040500070106" Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:58:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090004030609040500070106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hotels are probably the best (worst) place to see bufferbloat (and many other problems) in all their glory, particularly when a pile of IETF folks arrive. Fred Baker has been studying this slow motion disaster for many years; he has some very entertaining plots and data demonstrating various diseases he's found including bufferbloat. Might make a good transport plenary session sometime. Wireless drivers in the operating systems have lots of issues, such as trying to retransmit packets until the cows come home in the face of errors, compounding problems; not all of what you see in sick wireless networks is bufferbloat; lots of other diseases abound. If you want to see (and maybe help fix) such an example, look at: https://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/216 where we are fighting such a problem in the Linux stack, specifically the Ath9k driver. In the hotel case, you have many places to suffer from bufferbloat, depending on the bottleneck link: 1) in your host operating systems you'll get bufferbloat, if the transfer rate you are getting via wireless is below that of the broadband link, common due to both running through multiple walls and the sharing of the link with others. A common ring buffer size in drivers is 200-300 *packets* on modern hardware. 2) In many hotels, these access points are home routers rather than enterprise grade access points, so you get into all the trouble in those I've noted in my talk and blog. 3) then you get into the bloat in the back haul from the hotels. Many/most hotels are now (under) provisioned over broadband connections, so that hop, anytime there are a lot of users, saturates and stays saturated during busy hours, particularly if IETF is in town, so you get latency and bad packet loss there. Similar pheonomena occur in venues like libraries. 4) particular ISP's who specialised in connecting hotels to the Internet appear to have been (to be) particularly clueless and do not run any form of AQM on their networks, even though parts of those networks are often saturated. Those ISP's seem to have been merged into bigger ISP's, but the same clueless operators seem still in charge of the remains of those networks. I've seen bad problems 5 hops into such networks. This is classic http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2309.html mistake of the 1990's. I won't name any names, but you can figure out who on your own easily enough. If you run Windows, pingplotter is probably the best tool to observe problems; on Linux, mtr can be useful. I've done my own work mostly with vanilla ping and scp (to saturate the path). And anywhere I go, I *always* run netalyzr first, as it warns me of all sorts of illness (and tries to test for bufferbloat too). I recommend everyone do so. See: http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/ So hotels and conferences are particularly fruitful places to see Internet illnesses of all sorts. The one exception to the conference problems I've seen is NANOG/IETF, where cluefull people have done useful classification and AQM setup and where there is lots of traffic via enterprise access points that aren't over buffered, so that even RED93 algorithms can succeed at controlling the queues. Would that someone would write up that configuration and publish it as a BCP: it would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do much better, while we sort out the home router mess which needs other AQM algorithms, as yet untested. - Jim --------------090004030609040500070106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hotels are probably the best (worst) place to see bufferbloat (and many other problems) in all their glory, particularly when a pile of IETF folks arrive.  Fred Baker has been studying this slow motion disaster for many years; he has some very entertaining plots and data demonstrating various diseases he's found including bufferbloat.  Might make a good transport plenary session sometime.

Wireless drivers in the operating systems have lots of issues, such as trying to retransmit packets until the cows come home in the face of errors, compounding problems; not all of what you see in sick wireless networks is bufferbloat; lots of other diseases abound.  If you want to see (and maybe help fix) such an example, look at: https://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/216 where we are fighting such a problem in the Linux stack, specifically the Ath9k driver.

In the hotel case, you have many places to suffer from bufferbloat, depending on the bottleneck link:

    1) in your host operating systems you'll get bufferbloat, if the transfer rate you are getting via wireless is below that of the broadband link, common due to both running through multiple walls and the sharing of the link with others.  A common ring buffer size in drivers is 200-300 *packets* on modern hardware.

    2) In many hotels, these access points are home routers rather than enterprise grade access points, so you get into all the trouble in those I've noted in my talk and blog.

    3) then you get into the bloat in the back haul from the hotels.  Many/most hotels are now (under) provisioned over broadband connections, so that hop, anytime there are a lot of users, saturates and stays saturated during busy hours, particularly if IETF is in town, so you get latency and bad packet loss there.  Similar pheonomena occur in venues like libraries.

    4) particular ISP's who specialised in connecting hotels to the Internet appear to have been (to be) particularly clueless and do not run any form of AQM on their networks, even though parts of those networks are often saturated.  Those ISP's seem to have been merged into bigger ISP's, but the same clueless operators seem still in charge of the remains of those networks. I've seen bad problems 5 hops into such networks.  This is classic http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2309.html mistake of the 1990's. I won't name any names, but you can figure out who on your own easily enough.

If you run Windows, pingplotter is probably the best tool to observe problems; on Linux, mtr can be useful.  I've done my own work mostly with vanilla ping and scp (to saturate the path).

And anywhere I go, I always run netalyzr first, as it warns me of all sorts of illness (and tries to test for bufferbloat too).
I recommend everyone do so.  See: http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/

So hotels and conferences are particularly fruitful places to see Internet illnesses of all sorts.  The one exception to the conference problems I've seen is NANOG/IETF, where cluefull people have done useful classification and AQM setup and where there is lots of traffic via enterprise access points that aren't over buffered, so that even RED93 algorithms can succeed at controlling the queues.  Would that someone would write up that configuration and publish it as a BCP: it would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do much better, while we sort out the home router mess which needs other AQM algorithms, as yet untested.
                        - Jim


--------------090004030609040500070106-- From alastair.johnson@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Aug 1 14:11:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A1721F8B73 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:11:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OlM6+Mi0D7EV for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B52921F8B6E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inbansmailrelay1.in.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-250-11-31.lucent.com [135.250.11.31]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id p71LBkNC027019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:11:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SGSINSXCHHUB02.sg.alcatel-lucent.com (sgsinsxchhub02.sg.alcatel-lucent.com [135.254.109.72]) by inbansmailrelay1.in.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id p71LBjOD029951 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 2 Aug 2011 02:41:45 +0530 Received: from SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.254.109.78]) by SGSINSXCHHUB02.sg.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.254.109.72]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:11:45 +0800 From: "JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR)" To: Jim Gettys , Maciek Konstantynowicz Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:11:42 +0800 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) Thread-Index: AcxQjcgmL3/zzKtJSNeDhhWHltfdFAAAUHMw Message-ID: <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> In-Reply-To: <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:11:45 -0000 Jim Gettys wrote: > So hotels and conferences are particularly fruitful places to see=20 > Internet illnesses of all sorts.=A0 The one exception to the conference=20 > problems I've seen is NANOG/IETF, where cluefull people have done=20 > useful classification and AQM setup and where there is lots of=20 > traffic via enterprise access points that aren't over buffered, so=20 > that even RED93 algorithms can succeed at controlling the queues.=A0=20 > Would that someone would write up that configuration and publish it as=20 > a BCP: it would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do=20 > much better, while we sort out the home router mess which needs other=20 > AQM algorithms, as yet untested. Anton Kapela gave a lightning talk at NANOG38 on improving the wireless=20 performance. Available at: http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog38/presentations/kapela.pdf regards, aj From maciek@juniper.net Mon Aug 1 14:19:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBB221F8D03 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.253, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XZ4buaOgmLpo for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og110.obsmtp.com (exprod7og110.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984DB21F8D04 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob110.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTjcYdlZ0RQdgiitMA90QJ/fWA++KmcOr@postini.com; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:19:55 PDT Received: from sa-nc-cs-190.static.jnpr.net (172.23.4.190) by smtp.juniper.net (172.24.192.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:18:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Maciek Konstantynowicz In-Reply-To: <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:18:31 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> To: "JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR)" , Jim Gettys X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:19:48 -0000 Thanks for the pointers, will digest. The hotel manager I spoke to, didn't even know what IETF is about, and = didn't expect any excessive WiFi demands breaking hotel's Internet = access service. Maybe as a community, going forward we could provide more candid = feedback re Internet/WiFi performance during IETF gatherings. Or better give hotel mgmt heads-up about coming tsunami of Internet = users... so that hotel could address it pro-actively.. The business incentive for the hotel would be to avoid giving 20% = discounts if things don't work out as per my case :) + customer satisfaction. Thanks, Maciek. On 1 Aug 2011, at 22:11, JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR) wrote: > Jim Gettys wrote: >=20 >> So hotels and conferences are particularly fruitful places to see=20 >> Internet illnesses of all sorts. The one exception to the conference=20= >> problems I've seen is NANOG/IETF, where cluefull people have done=20 >> useful classification and AQM setup and where there is lots of=20 >> traffic via enterprise access points that aren't over buffered, so=20 >> that even RED93 algorithms can succeed at controlling the queues. =20 >> Would that someone would write up that configuration and publish it = as=20 >> a BCP: it would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do=20= >> much better, while we sort out the home router mess which needs other=20= >> AQM algorithms, as yet untested. >=20 > Anton Kapela gave a lightning talk at NANOG38 on improving the = wireless=20 > performance. Available at: > http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog38/presentations/kapela.pdf >=20 > regards, > aj From john-ietf@jck.com Mon Aug 1 14:37:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51E1F0C4B for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvKk0SNyklwX for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8051F0C39 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Qo0BG-000JGn-C3; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:37:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:37:45 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Maciek Konstantynowicz , "JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR)" , Jim Gettys Message-ID: <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:37:47 -0000 --On Monday, August 01, 2011 22:18 +0100 Maciek Konstantynowicz wrote: > Thanks for the pointers, will digest. > > The hotel manager I spoke to, didn't even know what IETF is > about, and didn't expect any excessive WiFi demands breaking > hotel's Internet access service. Maybe as a community, going > forward we could provide more candid feedback re Internet/WiFi > performance during IETF gatherings. Or better give hotel mgmt > heads-up about coming tsunami of Internet users... so that > hotel could address it pro-actively.. > > The business incentive for the hotel would be to avoid giving > 20% discounts if things don't work out as per my case :) + > customer satisfaction. Sigh. I used the network in the Delta quite a lot and didn't experience much of a problem, but kept my expectations set for "hotel" rather than "IETF". I also mostly used the wired Ethernet -- it may be just anecdotal, but I've generally found that wired Ethernet is much less likely to be problematic than WiFi if neither is set up by experts. While warning hotels that we are a collection of heavy Internet users and that it is a good idea to make sure that their IP vendors know that they need to tune things up to avoid embarrassment, the bottom line is that the only times folks seem to have zero complaints about hotel networks are where the hotel infrastructure starts out above average and is then hooked into the IETF network. It simply isn't plausible to believe that interconnection will occur with other than the primary hotel. It would be good to know in advance how likely it is even with the primary hotel but those opting for other hotels should arrive with the assumption that they will be dealing with a generic hotel network and What You Get is What You Get quality (whether it is free and worth what one pays for it or not). john From john-ietf@jck.com Mon Aug 1 14:44:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD8221F8D8C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:44:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3UisndZ4MJOV for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699B921F8D8A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Qo0ID-000JKK-Lu; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:44:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:44:56 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Jim Gettys , Maciek Konstantynowicz Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:44:52 -0000 --On Monday, August 01, 2011 16:58 -0400 Jim Gettys wrote: >... > Would that someone > would write up that configuration and publish it as a BCP: it > would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do > much better, while we sort out the home router mess which > needs other AQM algorithms, as yet untested. Looking on the bright side, we have an important window of opportunity here. Most of those el-cheapo home routers/beacons are going to need forklift upgrades to run IPv6. If, as Jim suggests, we agree on what it takes to get things right and can get the word out soon, we might just see a generation of IPv6-capable devices with competent buffer and congestion management. john From moore@network-heretics.com Mon Aug 1 14:48:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F901F0C4F for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.352, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b+peJuwjkUkV for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0383D1F0C4E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [65.16.145.177] (helo=host65-16-145-177.birch.net) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Qo0Lm-0007Gp-42; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:48:38 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:48:36 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3DB5933F-4C22-42F9-A222-9CF02F199850@network-heretics.com> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 867ef52fd101ecb3d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940c653722afee4663018653bcbc9fe5544350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.16.145.177 Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:48:37 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 5:44 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > --On Monday, August 01, 2011 16:58 -0400 Jim Gettys > wrote: >=20 >> ... >> Would that someone >> would write up that configuration and publish it as a BCP: it >> would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do >> much better, while we sort out the home router mess which >> needs other AQM algorithms, as yet untested. >=20 > Looking on the bright side, we have an important window of > opportunity here. Most of those el-cheapo home routers/beacons > are going to need forklift upgrades to run IPv6. If, as Jim > suggests, we agree on what it takes to get things right and can > get the word out soon, we might just see a generation of > IPv6-capable devices with competent buffer and congestion > management. It might help even more if someone wanted to take on the task of writing = a document called "Recommendations for Buffer and Congestion Management = in Consumer-Grade Routers" (omit "Consumer-Grade" if appropriate) Keith From xiphmont@gmail.com Mon Aug 1 14:49:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5B31F0C4B for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:49:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMKvjWcxyqVX for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D666D1F0C49 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwe5 with SMTP id 5so4074319wwe.13 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:49:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4ax+MtU7sCrgQ2r48hvdb5UhlI1kfgPxsc2zMLSqp7w=; b=kp3fImgo/BO3aRVNXIuhjCO8X6y8kCMuP3uPuXWXW8InPM3H295eWZiapXBMbXYohk tZysXtVw5u7YrNh8kufdX6SS9UBsP75x466e39qjc7Xxux3+9PIp4iLWYIgZKYPXVBqH 94VxkzeG2smEwVlDa5Q0Tq4fnx4akwHkvRsCw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.3.4 with SMTP id 4mr6675091wbl.35.1312235385429; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: xiphmont@gmail.com Received: by 10.227.136.82 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:49:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:49:45 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9D0JsRjLei8NeyONJFy5FGpl9HE Message-ID: From: Monty Montgomery To: John C Klensin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:49:39 -0000 > Sigh. > I used the network in the Delta quite a lot and didn't > experience much of a problem, but kept my expectations set for > "hotel" rather than "IETF". =A0I also mostly used the wired > Ethernet -- it may be just anecdotal, but I've generally found > that wired Ethernet is much less likely to be problematic than > WiFi if neither is set up by experts. I will note that for four of the six nights I was there, the wired ethernet in all three of our groups' rooms at the Delta (on three different floors) was unusable, with ping indicating packet loss over 50% and latencies in the seconds range during the periods where there was any connectivity at all. Wireless obviously didn't work either. I camped at other hotels and various coffeeshops to read mail (we had a fourth at the Palace Royal; wireless there was fine). Several folks have repeated the 'just use the wired ethernet' advice, and I'm sure it ~worked for some. For the Xiph contingent at the Delta it was somewhere between badly impacted and nonfunctional for the entire stay. Monty From fred@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 14:57:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95C61F0C4C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zv2UEihc8vSm for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D981F0C49 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; l=1182; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312235857; x=1313445457; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v24bYqhywn9BNKvckxC+UF6y8vY7QV/eHhU7a6tIjcw=; b=MEVTUwSIkEYHi7VrAKY/05J01yMw8ZTw57kOfi679zuZyxqG15KnYhFl +gMbGEuxzNCuCZz09Azjv+FBN9CRFte//UcMCy9udyPWig0BWQYBwr1X/ FQwCAjGKbTRfWQP7r/OXByJwMeN0FuZy2C1/DL7FkUhqp3WC+ANtUgpku E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgkQAIwgN06rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCp1MNd4FAAQEBAQIBEgEUEz8QC0ZXBjWHSqITAZ5uhWNfBIdaiyGFB4t9 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,302,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8592227" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 21:57:37 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com [10.32.244.221]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71LvaMC002474; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 21:57:36 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:57:36 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:57:36 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:57:09 -0700 Message-Id: <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:57:31 -0000 On Jul 31, 2011, at 10:52 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg >> Vancouver) >=20 > Since Quebec City has direct flights to Montreal, Toronto, Newark and = Chicago, all of which are major intercontinental hubs, I'd say it has = plenty of international connections. Speaking strictly for myself...=20 Every trip I take, I wind up on a commuter flight SBA->{SFO,LAX,DEN}, a = hub->hub flight, and a final leg. That final leg is sometimes a train, = as it was for Hiroshima, sometimes a full-service flight as it was to = Prague, and sometimes a commuter flight. Where it gets crazy is if there = are not adequate flights to support meeting attendance (if we wanted to = have the IETF in Santa Barbara, I'd be happy, but the rest of you would = be whining up a storm), if routes or layovers are just plain silly (I = once flew Kampala->Cairo via Lilongwe and Johannesburg, and don't get me = started on San Francisco->Bangalore), or such. I don't think we have an appropriate emoticon for "I am so very OVER = people whining about not being able to get end to end on a single = airplane"...= From ole@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 15:01:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE5221F8DB5 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.817 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.817 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.218, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZSogPgPX4cqF for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222AF21F8DAE for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:01:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=602; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312236117; x=1313445717; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=Le6z0pPNAg/sw6OmqG1wkDlG+D4da1kHu0/5dglY6UQ=; b=A6Z1FpDRB0DiOwkrtxp1K9T3y93nMm5ns0Q/yfNdbToj1yJ1OyX/Dn5z kSVXlfeBeQ8axiPVMDMl5vh9ioiMn6RNU6WcbOuwXtICwPmXDmwWg11DN e0pd68HzBY0up5h8sWWfvPT7aCJmdkVjDzFtNGAGtOQ61CkAkb3C4aZ4E k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgUFAFAhN06rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA/A5k/jiF3gUABAQEBAxIBAgEkPxALRlcGEyKpYgGDGg8BijqRCoM+gwQEh1qQKIRlhxg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,302,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8588041" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 22:01:57 +0000 Received: from [10.27.1.132] (sjc-ole-8913.cisco.com [10.27.1.132]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71M1ume006811; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:01:56 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:01:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: John C Klensin In-Reply-To: <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> Message-ID: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:01:50 -0000 "Expectations" are indeed important. Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which implies a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I am not going to attempt to create that list here, but I can well imagine some things that I should NOT be doing while on the hotel network, in consideration of my fellow IETFers. (Large downloads, live video...) Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo From moore@network-heretics.com Mon Aug 1 15:03:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690BD21F8C17 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:03:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.252 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.252 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mxns-Dx3fHpM for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0457D21F8C16 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [65.16.145.177] (helo=host65-16-145-177.birch.net) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Qo0Zn-0006lM-Lw; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:03:07 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:03:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <61BF91E3-7873-4C32-8A4D-486F051007DA@network-heretics.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> To: Fred Baker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 867ef52fd101ecb3d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da9406588237864343367423eacf8faa4f6d9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.16.145.177 Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:03:01 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 5:57 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > I don't think we have an appropriate emoticon for "I am so very OVER = people whining about not being able to get end to end on a single = airplane"... +1 From thomas@thomasclausen.org Mon Aug 1 15:20:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707C91F0C4C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fetr3YuskdZ6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hgblob.out.tigertech.net (hgblob-ipv6.tigertech.net [IPv6:2604:4f00::1:0:0:22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7283E1F0C49 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hgblob.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575C9325C162; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hgblob.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.147.111] (AMontsouris-651-1-122-119.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.202.65.119]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hgblob.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74B71325C15D; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Thomas Heide Clausen In-Reply-To: <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:20:33 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> To: Fred Baker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:20:30 -0000 Seconding that this meeting in Quebec was excellent! IETFs are intense, = rarely with time to venture outside - but here one didn't need much to = see neat stuff - walking the 5 min to a variety of restaurants saved = suffering usual hotel-fare more than necessary. Also, the location left us with plenty of nearby watering holes for = holding bar BOF's in actual bars. As for flying in - like Fred, I end up with at least one connection = almost wherever I go (and I live in a major European hub-city), often = two - and I *really* just fail to see the big deal with that. This time, = my connection was in Canada, so I even had a smiling immigration officer = and polite security-personnel=85.. A big vote for coming back to Quebec - and soon.=20 And, a big thanks to the secretariat, volunteers, Ray and all the rest = of the gang who came through to ensure that this IETF was as close to = perfection, in terms of meeting conditions, as I can recall from the = last 10-15ish years. Other than getting myself lost in the hallways at = the convention center (but there were the always lovely center-staff to = help re-route me), I had not a single glitch with *anything*=20 Thomas ps: Having an IETF in Santa Barbara would actually be a splendid idea: = even though I likely would have two or three connections, I can quite = easily imagine quite enjoying a beach-BOF or two=85. On Aug 1, 2011, at 23:57 , Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > On Jul 31, 2011, at 10:52 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >=20 >>> A city with a real set of international connections is better (eg >>> Vancouver) >>=20 >> Since Quebec City has direct flights to Montreal, Toronto, Newark and = Chicago, all of which are major intercontinental hubs, I'd say it has = plenty of international connections. >=20 > Speaking strictly for myself...=20 >=20 > Every trip I take, I wind up on a commuter flight SBA->{SFO,LAX,DEN}, = a hub->hub flight, and a final leg. That final leg is sometimes a train, = as it was for Hiroshima, sometimes a full-service flight as it was to = Prague, and sometimes a commuter flight. Where it gets crazy is if there = are not adequate flights to support meeting attendance (if we wanted to = have the IETF in Santa Barbara, I'd be happy, but the rest of you would = be whining up a storm), if routes or layovers are just plain silly (I = once flew Kampala->Cairo via Lilongwe and Johannesburg, and don't get me = started on San Francisco->Bangalore), or such. >=20 > I don't think we have an appropriate emoticon for "I am so very OVER = people whining about not being able to get end to end on a single = airplane"... > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From fred@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 15:52:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53B421F8CA5 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SCcRs2RlWJT0 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E531221F8B6A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:52:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; l=273; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312239174; x=1313448774; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Lx6KQOkNbFb5lQoxs45LmM2sc4qGovWj01p8PQL+Yg8=; b=gJZ7Cz7HnJIg9q8T1NlehGCd1/z3HOOy5kUqTNtyE6AnIT3Rhj8fZK7O /j0jneBrkgMnZ1CLcltHaqV9mMk/XFcGDfZQCZ1mR/gTH914CdMcIRa1x VlOh17tszKWm249tWD5jG7daQ2/0g7mIkrwvWZsOB0zf27hYA9UmDRgs8 k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AggQAIUtN06rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCp1MNd4FAAQEBAQIBEgFmBQsLRlcGNYdKogEBnnaFY18Eh1qLIYUHi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,303,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8601585" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2011 22:52:54 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com [10.32.244.221]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p71Mqqwt018612; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:52:52 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:52:53 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:52:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:52:40 -0700 Message-Id: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> To: Thomas Heide Clausen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:52:52 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 3:20 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen wrote: > ps: Having an IETF in Santa Barbara would actually be a splendid = idea: even though I likely would have two or three connections, I can = quite easily imagine quite enjoying a beach-BOF or two=85. :-)= From david.kessens@nsn.com Mon Aug 1 16:30:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DB611E8150 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:30:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.805 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.805 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.596, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Nwn0WjAK7Ql for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1324F11E813E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p71NU6S9021684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 2 Aug 2011 01:30:06 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([10.138.49.170]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p71NU4Y0017154; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 01:30:05 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (X1 [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p71NU2rk031263; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:30:02 -0700 Received: (from david@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p71NU0eo031261; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:30:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: david set sender to david.kessens@nsn.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:30:00 -0700 From: David Kessens To: Keith Moore Message-ID: <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> References: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:30:02 -0000 Keith, On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 04:38:15PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > Seriously, given that we're committed to having meetings all over the > world, do these details really rise to the level of things that the planning > staff needs to think about? You might call them details, but if you end up spending pretty much the same amount of time and money traveling within north america, as compared to traveling to asia or europe, there is very little meaning left to trying to spread the pain of travel around by having a meeting schedule that schedules meetings in three different regions. David Kessens --- From dean.willis@softarmor.com Mon Aug 1 16:36:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC90B11E8178 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.645, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L9C0JlYxTf3t for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37ADA11E8163 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so4496420gxk.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.76.228 with SMTP id b64mr3772299yhe.2.1312241791515; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.143] (cpe-66-25-15-110.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.15.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w1sm4189817yhi.23.2011.08.01.16.36.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:36:30 -0700 (PDT) References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dean Willis Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:36:26 -0400 To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:36:25 -0000 On Jul 31, 2011, at 6:36 PM, Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: >=20 > May be IAOC should note Quebec as a preferred location in case we need > to do kind of location recycling some day. >=20 I enjoyed Quebec. But it's still awfully hard to get to!=20 13.5 hours traveling each way from Dallas, with planes, train, bus, and = automobiles involved, ant it's probably even harder from elsewhere. On the other hand, it's 92 degrees F in my office in Dallas right now = (and that's WITH the AC running), so I'm missing Quebec. -- Dean= From dean.willis@softarmor.com Mon Aug 1 16:43:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC8F21F8D79 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:43:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.553, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ujbic0lkj2sX for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2904621F8D78 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so4498841gxk.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.138.132 with SMTP id a4mr3840953yhj.173.1312242212394; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.143] (cpe-66-25-15-110.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.15.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w24sm227749yhl.62.2011.08.01.16.43.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:43:31 -0700 (PDT) References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <1DE234B2-CDF8-44F0-8994-EC328D5B7369@softarmor.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dean Willis Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:43:28 -0400 To: Paul Coverdale X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:43:26 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Paul Coverdale wrote: > Don't know why everybody's complaining about the difficulty in getting = to > Quebec City. Samuel de Champlain managed it in 1608, and I bet there = were > even fewer direct flights than there are now, and not so many highways > either. His wife and boss both let him off for more than 5 days to invade = Quebec. And he wasn't restricted to getting there on air miles from American = Airlines and $200, either. -- Dean From touch@isi.edu Mon Aug 1 16:52:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E0A5E8015 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.453, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ZlXGJN95rUN for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.isi.edu (darkstar.isi.edu [128.9.128.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11955E8010 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by darkstar.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p71Nq25M027940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E373C22.5090500@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:52:02 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kessens References: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> In-Reply-To: <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:52:12 -0000 On 8/1/2011 4:30 PM, David Kessens wrote: > > Keith, > > On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 04:38:15PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >> >> Seriously, given that we're committed to having meetings all over the >> world, do these details really rise to the level of things that the planning >> staff needs to think about? > > You might call them details, but if you end up spending pretty much the same > amount of time and money traveling within north america, as compared to > traveling to asia or europe, there is very little meaning left to trying to > spread the pain of travel around by having a meeting schedule that schedules > meetings in three different regions. That's my conclusion. FWIW, Santa Barbara was mentioned jokingly, but would have been infinitely easier to get to -- huge numbers of flights to LAX and an "airbus" that goes between the two in under two hours 16x a day. Joe From fred@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 17:01:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8383611E8150 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:01:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.254 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.254 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e4gJ4UqSxwLp for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EA911E8077 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; l=2022; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312243314; x=1313452914; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Obxyt6LrYIMMBwlgVUF2hvs/EY9WqhRWpUtcuw0K4mU=; b=VoqMdej/5WIX1fEI0TL4FfqsNMKdVQ9ewzxCioQ/58AOi7on0pNn+Pzi oQXsuXN+jy3bqrfez5ypdtc1qokPgs4QA1iN5lT7CfYZF0rcvpejWvn8W dw7k7AwzrER/ruTQ/J22349O/EqD0v6RBCl05guknyucUKWMlXLl2p7jK E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvMRAHc9N06rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABCp1MNd4FAAQEBAQMSAScvAQQLEAsYLlcGJw6pSwGfAoVjXwSHWoshhQeLfQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,303,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="8617117" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2011 00:01:53 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com [10.32.244.221]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p7201ri5022453; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:01:53 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:01:53 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:01:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:01:41 -0700 Message-Id: References: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> To: David Kessens X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:01:47 -0000 On Aug 1, 2011, at 4:30 PM, David Kessens wrote: >> Seriously, given that we're committed to having meetings all over the >> world, do these details really rise to the level of things that the = planning >> staff needs to think about? >=20 > You might call them details, but if you end up spending pretty much = the same > amount of time and money traveling within north america, as compared = to > traveling to asia or europe, there is very little meaning left to = trying to > spread the pain of travel around by having a meeting schedule that = schedules > meetings in three different regions. Speaking from the perspective of one one the IAOC's "meetings" = committee, they actually do. Right now, we are in discussions regarding meetings in Singapore, Kuala = Lumpur, Viet Nam, and various other places in Southeastern Asia. = Singapore: we have been quoted $368/night for hotels, and that's not the = highest price. Kuala Lumpur: the immigration officer can refuse entry to = any person deemed "scruffy" (yes, that's the actual word used). Viet = Nam: who, from the IETF, comes from there? IPv6 Operations, which I = co-chair, has been offered a f2f interim meeting in Argentina. Wonderful = offer; who would actually come? Does it serve the community? You may not think we do, but we actually think pretty hard about the = facilities available, the costs, and whether it serves the community. = And yes, we do think about how much time the average person spends in = transit, and the price of transit. That said, in an organization with O(1500) people attending and O(4000) = people posting on mailing lists or contributing to Internet Drafts, when = one person or another says "but (wah!) I want you to optimize for = me!"... we don't. We try to move the meetings so that from time to time, = if "I" am working in the IETF the meeting is somewhat "close" to "me", = and we try to make it not too bad for everyone else. But we don't go = nuts trying to over-optimize.= From gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com Mon Aug 1 17:15:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03ABC11E8156 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.984 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.984 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.775, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F3IDiGKOBJGF for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imr4.ericy.com (imr4.ericy.com [198.24.6.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141E421F86EC for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eusaamw0706.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.31]) by imr4.ericy.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id p720E02L010051; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:14:02 -0500 Received: from EUSAACMS0715.eamcs.ericsson.se ([169.254.1.121]) by eusaamw0706.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.31]) with mapi; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:13:58 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: Fred Baker , David Kessens Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:13:57 -0400 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxQp33hTOfDH6iAQpyGZt+aQQQ0TQAAGhsA Message-ID: References: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:15:59 -0000 Dear Fred and All, I recall that policy to shift IETF meeting outside of the USA was explained= by difficulties getting visas that too many attendees have experienced. I = wonder if anything has been done or can be done to ease the process (IETF i= s certainly not a World Cup but even Russia is committed to ease visa proce= ss to those travelling to watch games in 2018). Regards, Greg =20 -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Fred Baker Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 5:02 PM To: David Kessens Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! On Aug 1, 2011, at 4:30 PM, David Kessens wrote: >> Seriously, given that we're committed to having meetings all over the=20 >> world, do these details really rise to the level of things that the=20 >> planning staff needs to think about? >=20 > You might call them details, but if you end up spending pretty much=20 > the same amount of time and money traveling within north america, as=20 > compared to traveling to asia or europe, there is very little meaning=20 > left to trying to spread the pain of travel around by having a meeting=20 > schedule that schedules meetings in three different regions. Speaking from the perspective of one one the IAOC's "meetings" committee, t= hey actually do. Right now, we are in discussions regarding meetings in Singapore, Kuala Lum= pur, Viet Nam, and various other places in Southeastern Asia. Singapore: we= have been quoted $368/night for hotels, and that's not the highest price. = Kuala Lumpur: the immigration officer can refuse entry to any person deemed= "scruffy" (yes, that's the actual word used). Viet Nam: who, from the IETF= , comes from there? IPv6 Operations, which I co-chair, has been offered a f= 2f interim meeting in Argentina. Wonderful offer; who would actually come? = Does it serve the community? You may not think we do, but we actually think pretty hard about the facili= ties available, the costs, and whether it serves the community. And yes, we= do think about how much time the average person spends in transit, and the= price of transit. That said, in an organization with O(1500) people attending and O(4000) peo= ple posting on mailing lists or contributing to Internet Drafts, when one p= erson or another says "but (wah!) I want you to optimize for me!"... we don= 't. We try to move the meetings so that from time to time, if "I" am workin= g in the IETF the meeting is somewhat "close" to "me", and we try to make i= t not too bad for everyone else. But we don't go nuts trying to over-optimi= ze. _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From johnl@iecc.com Mon Aug 1 17:23:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5861F0C49 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.845 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.845 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.635, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JT+wQKJY0V1 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D9C1F0C3C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27571 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2011 00:23:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=6bb2.4e374399.k1108; bh=PfCd7D4+Tsh566lbYFKqQ08ES/vQd3O3g85HhqtIZLA=; b=IHZEah/NDFDkEbxqrzLB76+qCBV1/Smfr96x9exV4GI3DwBErJT+Uua7a5/JHRmDd3gK5+hnw8GPHBNnq4vBFViInVE1lDuf/Mh9Xva/kxVOORzLn87D+zejCMGMbD6hec1dDbK1o76v7P04K51vaCUWSc7fwC6jmn4vc/E38Jw= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 2 Aug 2011 00:23:31 -0000 Date: 1 Aug 2011 20:23:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Dean Willis" In-Reply-To: <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:23:53 -0000 > I enjoyed Quebec. But it's still awfully hard to get to! I think some of that could be mitigated by publishing better advice ahead of time, e.g., buy your tickets earlier than usual, and here's how to take the bus to or from Montreal. There's no question that YQB is a small airport with limited service, and a conference the size of the IETF will fill up all the seats. The Friday night YQB-PHL flight was three hours late due to weather, so everyone missed their connections, and it was amusing how many familiar faces I saw in the bar of the PHL airport Marriott that night. R's, John From ole@cisco.com Mon Aug 1 17:32:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EB91F0C49 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.817 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.817 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MWYhc6+62gLu for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD8C1F0C3E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=1259; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312245157; x=1313454757; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=nCR2sgYsHaMmDN4+jaHuHzwtH5QVW6SsOK3v+syaUIw=; b=Vwdewq4W5WIX1/vAmsNp32G6CamxmIDGqc8/Sbjs+C4Dmx7PFPCfQqC2 tSbj81cPdNlY2of/i+9JwUcd23t6XYiOtSuHZzsE+I+xXzImaEyJHBrby 9Xh5tsfRnw8L2QDgbTMS3aVum1pm758dQ28N3wJe5iZ1UkPqMQvsAqstq M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvQRAHBFN05Io8UR/2dsb2JhbAA8AwOnUg13gUABAQEBAgESAQIBJD8QCxguVwYTIodKoXwBgxoPAZtkgy8PgwQEh1qQKIRlhxg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,303,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="45981726" Received: from bgl-core-2.cisco.com ([72.163.197.17]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2011 00:32:34 +0000 Received: from [10.27.1.132] (sjc-ole-8913.cisco.com [10.27.1.132]) by bgl-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p720WNeD008532; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:32:24 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:32:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Dean Willis In-Reply-To: <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:32:31 -0000 Dean, I guess it all depends on where you start from. SFO-ORD = about 4 hours ORD-YQB = about 2 hours Totalt ime: about half of what you're citing. Granted that wasn't what I did, but I don't think it's a particularly unusual routing or outside of norm average. I went via Montreal which has a lot more flights in and out and then took the train, but I could have flown a short flight also. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Dean Willis wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2011, at 6:36 PM, Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > > > May be IAOC should note Quebec as a preferred location in case we need > > to do kind of location recycling some day. > > > > I enjoyed Quebec. But it's still awfully hard to get to! > > 13.5 hours traveling each way from Dallas, with planes, train, bus, > and automobiles involved, ant it's probably even harder from > elsewhere. > > On the other hand, it's 92 degrees F in my office in Dallas right > now (and that's WITH the AC running), so I'm missing Quebec. > > -- > Dean From gettysjim@gmail.com Mon Aug 1 17:33:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41BD91F0C3E for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPp08VOatzjI for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F18F1F0C3C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vxi40 with SMTP id 40so5873291vxi.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1Lh31ye/XvzkePBSh/pZ4TOIeRAM3Cm7foA5OzTiQ/8=; b=FOON+912AJlIQjhwv2J+84mmF29q2CQyHpI68pe21ai1L+o+DBdaLKaHzDiH5RtzIB pwzpQiF5p8So3m5KWM0pY0UBS772qYmYzewqkhoY8gyUcTd+s6VNpcWYYaC8DcfTfXLG 9TC711VsHE3GAXydV/a55XIG3fN7EqULKsIXs= Received: by 10.52.111.200 with SMTP id ik8mr5342522vdb.128.1312245231193; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.3] (c-24-218-177-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.177.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c13sm2046482vcp.20.2011.08.01.17.33.49 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jim Gettys Message-ID: <4E3745EC.2020805@freedesktop.org> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:33:48 -0400 From: Jim Gettys Organization: Bell Labs User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110627 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR)" References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:33:51 -0000 On 08/01/2011 05:11 PM, JOHNSON, ALASTAIR (ALASTAIR) wrote: > Jim Gettys wrote: > >> So hotels and conferences are particularly fruitful places to see >> Internet illnesses of all sorts. The one exception to the conference >> problems I've seen is NANOG/IETF, where cluefull people have done >> useful classification and AQM setup and where there is lots of >> traffic via enterprise access points that aren't over buffered, so >> that even RED93 algorithms can succeed at controlling the queues. >> Would that someone would write up that configuration and publish it as >> a BCP: it would at least help other conferences and enterprises to do >> much better, while we sort out the home router mess which needs other >> AQM algorithms, as yet untested. > Anton Kapela gave a lightning talk at NANOG38 on improving the wireless > performance. Available at: > http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog38/presentations/kapela.pdf Yes, this is exactly what I was referring to, though Anton's configuration has been further tweaked since that date given more experience. It's the first time I've seen a loaded wireless network able to deal with the latencies that VOIP requires when it's under serious load. I'm trying to get a hold of those configuration files so we can try to do the same thing in the home router work Dave Taht and I are up to. But capturing that information in a BCP, along with the rationale for the configuration would be a great step forward for the the world. - Jim From john-ietf@jck.com Mon Aug 1 17:36:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C42E1F0C3C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:36:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Ez5JGtNS3-f for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F5C1F0C40 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Qo2xo-000L08-48; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:36:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:36:03 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Ole Jacobsen Message-ID: <39CB2879C410DED04A615BEE@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:36:06 -0000 --On Monday, August 01, 2011 15:01 -0700 Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > "Expectations" are indeed important. > > Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which > implies a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I > am not going to attempt to create that list here, but I can > well imagine some things that I should NOT be doing while on > the hotel network, in consideration of my fellow IETFers. > (Large downloads, live video...) Indeed. Not just fellow IETFers but anyone unaffiliated with us who happens to be staying in the hotel at the same time. john From randy@psg.com Mon Aug 1 17:45:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E001F0C52 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.603, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18xbOxsPvdtk for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C45C1F0C3C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rair.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Qo36a-0004mK-KX; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:45:08 +0000 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:45:07 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: References: <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:45:07 -0000 > You may not think we do, but we actually think pretty hard about the > facilities available, the costs, and whether it serves the > community. And yes, we do think about how much time the average person > spends in transit, and the price of transit. >=20 > That said, in an organization with O(1500) people attending and > O(4000) people posting on mailing lists or contributing to Internet > Drafts, when one person or another says "but (wah!) I want you to > optimize for me!"... we don't. We try to move the meetings so that > from time to time, if "I" am working in the IETF the meeting is > somewhat "close" to "me", and we try to make it not too bad for > everyone else. But we don't go nuts trying to over-optimize. as an engineer, i judge by the results. maastricht, beining, praha, ville de qu=E9bec, ... all were reasonable to reach, well as reasonable to reach as things are for a global organization. all had fairly liberal visa policies, which make a *big* difference for our co-workers from many non-northam countries. prices were ok, though not great. otoh, go low and the spoiled and privileged will whine loudly. i look forward to tai pei. randy From gettysjim@gmail.com Mon Aug 1 17:48:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1631F0C49 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ho+lxoX1R8K5 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7EF421F851A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 17:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so5860011vws.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:47:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HYeGRlYNzhV/YIicjfBZFf02vBz99m7M3YTs+1HOd3o=; b=vvmKrr2wSPNvPK00yqCGuGoGbQUnT5qf8WdjuFdJEruU2bQM1B+UGLdvsL3lRtiMQe mobA0LRuGIpGEUouJiD7uX/NivUTPb66G+7gjTVxH4SIoK+SHX+6sWLh+HpeOL5EvwKb 0xvbSWsrOieIyxPfSMUihX9sH36AFZFMJHZf4= Received: by 10.52.117.99 with SMTP id kd3mr4912032vdb.388.1312246076497; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.3] (c-24-218-177-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.177.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dn12sm551811vcb.40.2011.08.01.17.47.53 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jim Gettys Message-ID: <4E374939.4090903@freedesktop.org> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:47:53 -0400 From: Jim Gettys Organization: Bell Labs User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110627 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:48:10 -0000 On 08/01/2011 05:37 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > > --On Monday, August 01, 2011 22:18 +0100 Maciek Konstantynowicz > wrote: > >> Thanks for the pointers, will digest. >> >> The hotel manager I spoke to, didn't even know what IETF is >> about, and didn't expect any excessive WiFi demands breaking >> hotel's Internet access service. Maybe as a community, going >> forward we could provide more candid feedback re Internet/WiFi >> performance during IETF gatherings. Or better give hotel mgmt >> heads-up about coming tsunami of Internet users... so that >> hotel could address it pro-actively.. >> >> The business incentive for the hotel would be to avoid giving >> 20% discounts if things don't work out as per my case :) + >> customer satisfaction. > Sigh. > I used the network in the Delta quite a lot and didn't > experience much of a problem, but kept my expectations set for > "hotel" rather than "IETF". I also mostly used the wired > Ethernet -- it may be just anecdotal, but I've generally found > that wired Ethernet is much less likely to be problematic than > WiFi if neither is set up by experts. > > While warning hotels that we are a collection of heavy Internet > users and that it is a good idea to make sure that their IP > vendors know that they need to tune things up to avoid > embarrassment, the bottom line is that the only times folks seem > to have zero complaints about hotel networks are where the hotel > infrastructure starts out above average and is then hooked into > the IETF network. It simply isn't plausible to believe that > interconnection will occur with other than the primary hotel. > It would be good to know in advance how likely it is even with > the primary hotel but those opting for other hotels should > arrive with the assumption that they will be dealing with a > generic hotel network and What You Get is What You Get quality > (whether it is free and worth what one pays for it or not). > > Yes, exactly. You suffer a lot less on ethernet, as you take one possible point of bloat out of the path. Windows, by default, won't saturate a 100Mbps connection (it's tuned to stay just below 90Mbps, as far as I can see). Mac and Linux will saturate anything to a gigabit without thinking with even a single TCP connection, given enough time for them to ramp up. Even if Mac and Linux saturate the ethernet link and fill those queues in the driver/router, at least the amount of time they represent at high bandwidth is much, much less. So your queues build in the hotel's router, rather than backing up in the wireless router and your laptop, at least when plugged in usually. Wireless, going through multiple walls and also being shared often guarantees your queues build in that wireless hop, where bloat is often much worse than the uplink, and shared among others to boot. So good practical advice until this is sorted out is to plug in to ethernet whenever possible, and/or carry a high speed router of your own to pug into that ethernet in your room, to try to guarantee the bottleneck link is at the hotel backhaul. Same thing goes at home: the home router/laptop link in your house is probably more bloated than your broadband connection (and you can bandwidth shape that to keep those queues small), so if you ensure your wireless bandwidth is always above your broadband bandwidth you can have reliable low latency. But in houses like mine with chimneys, this can be easier said than done. There is a lot you can do about bloat once you understand it by moving the bottleneck link to where it may be less problematic. - Jim From david.kessens@nsn.com Mon Aug 1 18:12:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA3B21F8C23 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.541, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6UkNycWydwk for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947BA21F8C1C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p721CSsg012994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 2 Aug 2011 03:12:28 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([10.138.49.170]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p721CRll024795; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 03:12:28 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (X1 [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p721CQwo032297; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:12:26 -0700 Received: (from david@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p721CPGA032295; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:12:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: david set sender to david.kessens@nsn.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:12:25 -0700 From: David Kessens To: Fred Baker Message-ID: <20110802011225.GM25922@nsn.com> References: <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 01:12:42 -0000 Fred, On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 05:01:41PM -0700, Fred Baker wrote: > > You may not think we do, but we actually think pretty hard about the > facilities available, the costs, and whether it serves the community. And > yes, we do think about how much time the average person spends in transit, > and the price of transit. I don't doubt this. However, I do think that maybe this time the actual travel time and cost was perhaps somewhat underestimated, including by myself. When the question of Quebec vs. Vancouver first came up, I did a quick search for how hard/easy it was to get there and it looked ok. When it actually came to booking the trip, it turned out that there weren't quite as many options as I liked and the price was extremely high. When I actually stepped in the airplane, the situation was even worse as the nearly monopoly airline in canada owns very nice and new airplanes but seems unable to run an airline operation. Compounded by the ridiculous queues that I encountered in Toronto at either side of the border, my travel experience became one of the worst that I encountered in a long time. The excellent meeting facilities and nice location certainly made up for a lot of that. However, it remains that travel times were much longer than I anticipated, even when the airplanes would have flown on time, good connections were hard to find, and the cost for travel was extremely high. That was certainly a bummer for a meeting that is supposed to be convenient and cost effective for north american participants. David Kessens --- From randy@psg.com Mon Aug 1 18:20:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952AE5E8010 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.595, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nTaiVkhQi48a for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BD75E8004 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 18:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rair.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Qo3eP-0005YZ-2B; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 01:20:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:20:03 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: David Kessens In-Reply-To: <20110802011225.GM25922@nsn.com> References: <67CD028F-3C38-4036-B130-EBD47B6F2AAE@isi.edu> <4E36D701.50704@isi.edu> <20110801201029.GC25922@nsn.com> <20110801233000.GK25922@nsn.com> <20110802011225.GM25922@nsn.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 01:20:32 -0000 we need a wg or at least a bof to see if we can take all the damed whining and use it to supply some of the power to the aircraft. randy From yutaka.miyano@tm.softbank.co.jp Tue Aug 2 00:28:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A283F21F853E for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.511 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ThvPlE8BlC0Y for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bb.softbank.co.jp (m1.bb.softbank.co.jp [210.146.18.150]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596BA21F8A7A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CI-EXHB-05.bb.local (10.241.1.6) by m1.bb.softbank.co.jp (210.146.18.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.247.2; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:28:04 +0900 Received: from CI-EXMB-11V.bb.local ([fe80::80d2:3c8b:cfeb:9273]) by CI-EXHB-05.bb.local ([::1]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:28:04 +0900 From: To: <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:28:02 +0900 Thread-Topic: Question about the Streamtext Thread-Index: AcxQ5bUz5oSVwourQCmlY5fC+wwu2w== Message-ID: <884318C54BF69F40BC00F2BE87363F3307DF55EF@CI-EXMB-11V.bb.local> Accept-Language: ja-JP Content-Language: ja-JP X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: ja-JP Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_884318C54BF69F40BC00F2BE87363F3307DF55EFCIEXMB11Vbbloca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [81attendees] Question about the Streamtext X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:28:11 -0000 --_000_884318C54BF69F40BC00F2BE87363F3307DF55EFCIEXMB11Vbbloca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello I attended IETF81th as newcomer. I would like to obtain Archives of streamtext of a Technical Plenary held o= n July 25. Please tell me how to obtain it. It was placed in the following URLs. =1B$B!T=1B(Bhttp://www.streamtext.net/text.aspx?event=3Dietf=1B$B!U=1B(B Best regards, Yutaka Miyano --_000_884318C54BF69F40BC00F2BE87363F3307DF55EFCIEXMB11Vbbloca_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello

&nb= sp;

I attend= ed IETF81th as newcomer.

&nb= sp;

I would = like to obtain Archives of streamtext of a Technical Plenary held on July 25.

Please t= ell me how to obtain it.

&nb= sp;

It was p= laced in the following URLs.

=1B$B!T=1B(Bhttp://www.stream= text.net/text.aspx?event=3Dietf= =1B$B!U=1B(B

&nb= sp;

Best regards,<= /p>

&nb= sp;

Yutaka M= iyano

--_000_884318C54BF69F40BC00F2BE87363F3307DF55EFCIEXMB11Vbbloca_-- From kpfleming@digium.com Tue Aug 2 04:47:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD2521F8EDF for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 04:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tVxDKjyVMvU4 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 04:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.digium.com (mail.digium.com [216.207.245.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8C521F8EE5 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 04:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.digium.internal ([10.24.55.203] helo=zimbra.hsv.digium.com) by mail.digium.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QoDRO-0003Rt-NN for 81attendees@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:47:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.hsv.digium.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE5B1A2006 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:47:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from zimbra.hsv.digium.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.hsv.digium.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfcEgMd6YBum for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:47:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [10.128.187.63] (adsl-76-230-189-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net [76.230.189.115]) by zimbra.hsv.digium.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCB0ED8024 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:47:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4E37E3C5.30606@digium.com> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:47:17 -0500 From: "Kevin P. Fleming" Organization: Digium, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> In-Reply-To: <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 11:47:12 -0000 On 08/01/2011 06:36 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2011, at 6:36 PM, Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: >> >> May be IAOC should note Quebec as a preferred location in case we need >> to do kind of location recycling some day. >> > > I enjoyed Quebec. But it's still awfully hard to get to! > > 13.5 hours traveling each way from Dallas, with planes, train, bus, and automobiles involved, ant it's probably even harder from elsewhere. You must have had some extenuating circumstances causing it to take that long. I just did a quick search on Orbitz and I see Air Canada/US Airways at just under 6 hours, Delta at 5:25, United at 6:02, WestJet at 6:12, American at 7:39 (these all include layover times). -- Kevin P. Fleming Digium, Inc. | Director of Software Technologies Jabber: kfleming@digium.com | SIP: kpfleming@digium.com | Skype: kpfleming 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA Check us out at www.digium.com & www.asterisk.org From ford@isoc.org Tue Aug 2 05:50:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60FF121F8DAC for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:50:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id klvznX9trFhJ for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp171.iad.emailsrvr.com (smtp171.iad.emailsrvr.com [207.97.245.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDC221F8DA5 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp27.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0F44F1185D3 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:51:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: by smtp27.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: ford-AT-isoc.org) with ESMTPSA id AC28D1185FB for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:51:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Ford Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 13:51:02 +0100 Message-Id: To: 81attendees@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Subject: [81attendees] Photos for IETF Journal X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:50:57 -0000 Hi, If you have uploaded your pictures from IETF 81 and are willing to share = them with IETF Journal, please send me a pointer. I'll contact you directly if we decide we'd like to go ahead and use any = of your work in the next issue. Thanks! Mat Mat Ford Managing Editor, IETF Journal http://ietfjournal.isoc.org/= From wjhns1@hardakers.net Tue Aug 2 06:49:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A0321F8770 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lNRPSFhE4Sam for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.236.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03F921F867A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (wjh.hardakers.net [10.0.0.2]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8DDC8A3; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 06:48:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Hardaker To: Matthew Ford References: Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:48:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Matthew Ford's message of "Tue, 2 Aug 2011 13:51:02 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] Photos for IETF Journal X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 13:49:15 -0000 >>>>> On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 13:51:02 +0100, Matthew Ford said: MF> If you have uploaded your pictures from IETF 81 and are willing to MF> share them with IETF Journal, please send me a pointer. It's worth noting that there is an IETF group in flickr as well, that is designed to document our journeys to the various places we hold meetings at. http://www.flickr.com/groups/ietf/ -- Wes Hardaker SPARTA, Inc. From Tina.Tsou.Zouting@huawei.com Mon Aug 1 16:00:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B571F0C4E for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:00:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.264 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.264 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98TDWGR7AMR2 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F971F0C49 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LP900EYVUKH2S@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for 81attendees@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:00:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LP9007YDUKHT4@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for 81attendees@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:00:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ACU91533; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:00:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.95) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:00:14 +0800 Received: from SZXEML526-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.148]) by szxeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.27.188]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:00:15 +0800 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:00:13 +0000 From: Tina TSOU In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.193.34.81] To: Fred Baker , Thomas Heide Clausen Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-index: AQHMTy0ZU2NE47IgUkuzObzSk/PybZUG10nR//+o7ICAAAcDgIAAcpyAgAENoICAAAaKgIAACPkAgACHgDA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:02:21 -0700 Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:00:12 -0000 Fully support. I'm sure the work will be progressed more smoothly in the beach. It is also convenient for people going from northern California where all these companies are located to southern California. Best Regards, Tina TSOU http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:53 PM To: Thomas Heide Clausen Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! On Aug 1, 2011, at 3:20 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen wrote: > ps: Having an IETF in Santa Barbara would actually be a splendid idea: even though I likely would have two or three connections, I can quite easily imagine quite enjoying a beach-BOF or two.... :-) _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From johnl@iecc.com Wed Aug 3 08:07:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E7F21F8BAA for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.627, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hVpOJ0Pjp95 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8313221F8BA9 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31232 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2011 15:07:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=79ff.4e39642e.k1108; bh=4FS0TIQ1fGt/wfEa5G/3vmjy9YPrBDRiTxXPaDQUyWY=; b=LChPlL8qIn0ULsxttAVAbJ3sHGmPcEzKTcblxJzwsDNvucLlvAzTi86g+32XP1MXCN0s207hHaNUXqwy3My46oyfGLjIU2fdM5alGrOZRFBbF3WNWcTVZXsRQeTIOAo/QiDnPK4sKlQUWPrGeAoGIoXC6KnlTzpX1aPSWuaubv4= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 3 Aug 2011 15:07:04 -0000 Date: 3 Aug 2011 11:07:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Tina TSOU" In-Reply-To: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:07:16 -0000 > Fully support. I'm sure the work will be progressed more smoothly in the beach. > It is also convenient for people going from northern California where all these companies are located to southern California. I dunno. There's only one train a day from San Jose to Santa Barbara. Also, all that mellowness makes me itch. R's, John From thomas@thomasclausen.org Wed Aug 3 08:40:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E029721F8BB8 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gN4pjrwMFi3n for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hgblob.out.tigertech.net (hgblob-ipv6.tigertech.net [IPv6:2604:4f00::1:0:0:22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542EB21F8BB7 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hgblob.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD97325C15E; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hgblob.tigertech.net Received: from [10.0.1.5] (sphinx.lix.polytechnique.fr [129.104.11.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hgblob.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60EB7325C15B; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Thomas Heide Clausen In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:40:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> To: "John R. Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org>, Tina TSOU Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:40:52 -0000 On Aug 3, 2011, at 17:07 , John R. Levine wrote: >> Fully support. I'm sure the work will be progressed more smoothly in = the beach. >> It is also convenient for people going from northern California where = all these companies are located to southern California. >=20 > I dunno. There's only one train a day from San Jose to Santa Barbara. > Also, all that mellowness makes me itch. >=20 You could always fly in over Chicago and LAX - tends to take the mellow = out of the best of us ;) > R's, > John > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Wed Aug 3 08:55:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B7C21F8BAA for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:55:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.357, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qlFHZmGiZkuF for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yi0-f44.google.com (mail-yi0-f44.google.com [209.85.218.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A6821F8BA7 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yie30 with SMTP id 30so623272yie.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=UUpmS0aSeznffLPP9eRWz2RgsUaMp9lXJ+V9I7GrLzw=; b=BL6EwkKMcMMpaqT6D37PvxUjeQjamT66YlDF44p6j+LoNkEoPHssQVRkCsjCRJp1u+ hW4hDRbFYjz228FtzFHSOXq260lvBEEn+DVDbZbSnRrJY6dritRulkPOFW0GPLIeBCpO hx+UoQlCNjWod6WrE6f1wegloH/DQXpneiG9Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.134.10 with SMTP id h10mr868395ybd.24.1312386958606; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.98.21 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:55:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:55:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: "John R. Levine" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd47e0e79c21104a99be6ca Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org>, Tina TSOU Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:55:47 -0000 --000e0cd47e0e79c21104a99be6ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:07 AM, John R. Levine wrote: > Fully support. I'm sure the work will be progressed more smoothly in the >> beach. >> It is also convenient for people going from northern California where all >> these companies are located to southern California. >> > > I dunno. There's only one train a day from San Jose to Santa Barbara. > Also, all that mellowness makes me itch. > We could always arrange for sharks. They tend to reduce the mellowness quotient. Regards Marshall > R's, > John > > ______________________________**_________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/81attendees > --000e0cd47e0e79c21104a99be6ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:07 AM, John R.= Levine <johnl@iecc.= com> wrote:
Fully support. I'm sure the work will be progressed more smoothly in th= e beach.
It is also convenient for people going from northern California where all t= hese companies are located to southern California.

I dunno. There's only one train a day from San Jose to Santa Barbara. Also, all that mellowness makes me itch.

We could always arrange for sharks. They tend to reduce the mellowness qu= otient.=A0

Regards
Marshall
=A0
=A0
R's,
John

_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

--000e0cd47e0e79c21104a99be6ca-- From dhc@dcrocker.net Wed Aug 3 09:43:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BFA621F8ACC for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:43:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l-8pzd0Q5vEq for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E364B21F88A1 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.156] (adsl-67-124-149-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.124.149.98]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p73GhoHY028136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:43:55 -0700 Message-ID: <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 09:43:46 -0700 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:43:44 -0000 On 8/1/2011 3:01 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > "Expectations" are indeed important. > > Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which implies > a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I am not going to > attempt to create that list here, but I can well imagine some things > that I should NOT be doing while on the hotel network, in > consideration of my fellow IETFers. (Large downloads, live video...) Ole, At various times, such examples have been cited, effectively placing the responsibility for poor hotel network performance onto IETF guests at the hotel. Is this merely a matter of being thorough in listing theoretical possibilities? Or do we have any hard data to support the theory that IETF guests are, in fact, abusing the hotel networks? Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have adequate resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of guests? What should the site qualifying teams do to assess a hotel's network capabilities? I know what some of that is already being done but it's worth making sure that this issue is sufficiently covered by the site qualifying teams. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From johnl@iecc.com Wed Aug 3 10:15:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A33821F88A0 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uL0nrU4LbgN2 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5596E21F87C3 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32268 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2011 17:15:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=7e0b.4e39823e.k1108; bh=UqHzdMOE7tZOI67IgY1+YUA6wbwxD/XVRzpVKeYuuDc=; b=WH9eTZ4fIMb56LKtYwZcKXwuMj5yVIZ2OybpFyXl3ozlG/Y3DbobLPE7F/TIqZ0Q5J4gWrQ8UK6NpA6WEJY9ommKodTpGXjJ+XHgO2ljIaSNQ3j/HCQ8tHTH7jfllxkRpEHGnYbQxQQNNdKHkKe9ETeVC191Xykw80i7VzaLNWw= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 3 Aug 2011 17:15:20 -0000 Date: 3 Aug 2011 13:15:42 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:15:32 -0000 > Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have adequate > resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of guests? Maybe your experience is different from mine, but that would always be my starting assumption unless I had specific reasons to think otherwise. The most plausible specific reason would be that the IETF was able to feed the hotel network from the conference network, as they did at the Quebec Hilton. That was certainly nice, but I suspect the IAOC would have a lot of trouble finding a sufficient set of venues and hotels that could all do that. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly From ole@cisco.com Wed Aug 3 10:20:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603A821F89CC for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.187, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nw2KUyJOPgNi for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752A621F88A6 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:20:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=3101; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312392024; x=1313601624; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=7+na1lRMDHZvetsGUJ7q9LfEghWWDAZlQbNuXh1PExQ=; b=JYKlgggBX+SREkXEUYaurl2ew1YWdINyDuqVmIXDdswwAi+1aL/bXdRV ffxlUpWjuj3zyaolirFR9O03GBA8tPFlZysyYyaCQcvxozvf5q2CGeeRW bv0OlfjPKeN2oY9TdqOtZtZ3bJ3ZpUQapQ7Xqk2cf9Y6ueJs9Pk2e+/z2 c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EAFeCOU6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA/A6dgd4FAAQEBAQIBAQEBDwECASQ0CxALGC4nMBkih0oEomEBgxwPAYo6kQGDPoMEBIdalQ2HGA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,311,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9324989" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2011 17:20:23 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73HKNtG028707; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:20:23 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:20:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:20:12 -0000 Dave, It may be possible to do an estimate as follows: * If/when the IETF network is directly connected to the hotel network the NOC has good measurements on usage. Using these measurements we can probably approximate what the average bandwith requirement per IETF (hotel) user is. Call that Bx. * A certain number of overflow hotels are visited prior to venue selection. Bandwidth is discussed (if not measured). Let's call that Bh for the total. * If Bx * (N IETF guest) >> Bh we know there will be problems and we could certainly make some statement about such limits in advance of the meeting. None of the above is very scientific (except perhaps for the NOC measurement part), and sucky networks suffer from more problems than just bandwith issues (recall all the port-blocking at a certain hotel in Maastricht). While it may be theoretically possible to gather all this information for all (some) overflow hotels in advance of the meeting, at some point this becomes an excercise in diminishing returns. Let's not forget that the site visits are done a couple of years (initially) prior to the actual meeting, even if there are later follow-up visits in some cases. The NOC people can tell us much more about the (depressing) reality here (if they're still on the list). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, Dave CROCKER wrote: > > > On 8/1/2011 3:01 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > > > "Expectations" are indeed important. > > > > Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which implies > > a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I am not going to > > attempt to create that list here, but I can well imagine some things > > that I should NOT be doing while on the hotel network, in > > consideration of my fellow IETFers. (Large downloads, live video...) > > > Ole, > > At various times, such examples have been cited, effectively placing the > responsibility for poor hotel network performance onto IETF guests at the > hotel. > > Is this merely a matter of being thorough in listing theoretical > possibilities? Or do we have any hard data to support the theory that IETF > guests are, in fact, abusing the hotel networks? > > Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have adequate > resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of guests? > > What should the site qualifying teams do to assess a hotel's network > capabilities? I know what some of that is already being done but it's worth > making sure that this issue is sufficiently covered by the site qualifying > teams. > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > From ben@estacado.net Wed Aug 3 10:22:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD87721F8564 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M89JvxNFhTa3 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from estacado.net (estacado-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:266::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779C121F854C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dn3-227.estacado.net (dn3-227.estacado.net [172.16.3.227]) (authenticated bits=0) by estacado.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73HMrmH084605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:22:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@estacado.net) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:22:48 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> To: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:22:45 -0000 On Aug 3, 2011, at 12:15 PM, John R. Levine wrote: >> Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have = adequate resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of = guests? >=20 > Maybe your experience is different from mine, but that would always be = my starting assumption unless I had specific reasons to think otherwise. >=20 More often than not, I find hotels have inadequate resources even when = I'm _not_ attending an event that would attract an unusually high = proportion of internet-centric guests.=20 > The most plausible specific reason would be that the IETF was able to = feed the hotel network from the conference network, as they did at the = Quebec Hilton. That was certainly nice, but I suspect the IAOC would = have a lot of trouble finding a sufficient set of venues and hotels that = could all do that. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for = Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. = http://jl.ly > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From dhc@dcrocker.net Wed Aug 3 11:10:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E05521F89C2 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:10:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.710, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LxKJZxwzTpqb for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5937521F8538 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.156] (adsl-67-124-149-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.124.149.98]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p73IAFrh030157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:10:20 -0700 Message-ID: <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:10:11 -0700 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 18:10:12 -0000 Preface: Perhaps it is not unprecedented, but I do not recall seeing such a strongly positive post-meeting set of postings before this, especially in the face of a noticeably thin set of complaints. Whatever Quebec City's magic, it worked impressively well and that definitely should count for quite a lot. In particular, since real attendees at recent meetings must be treated as the sizable core population for future meetings, that reaction overrides most other concerns. (Just to be thorough -- the concerns that I saw raised that seemed to have a base of agreement were: Delta's network, a tendency for very cold meeting rooms, and high food prices. I also heard some complaints about food at the Hilton, but not on the list. Were there others?) Regularly-scheduled programming: As for some of the long-standing points about meeting at non-hub venues: On 8/1/2011 5:32 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > SFO-ORD = about 4 hours > > ORD-YQB = about 2 hours plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least 2-3 hours to the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in-airport transfer. In addition, non-hub venues have much more fragile and limited connectivity. Quebec city is serviced by a couple of regional carriers, to only a few cities, codeshares with major airlines notwithstanding. Transitions always make a process more fragile and carry additional cost. (This includes opportunities for luggage or the passenger to miss the connection. I enjoyed both of these excellent experiences on this trip -- one going and one returning -- by way of demonstrating that these are not matters of theoretical concern.) On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs 4-8 hours round-trip, often also costing more money. That's 500-1000 extra person days spent in transit. I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated cost. > On 8/1/2011 2:57 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >> Where it gets crazy is if there are not adequate >> flights to support meeting attendance (if we wanted to have the IETF in Santa >> Barbara, I'd be happy, but the rest of you would be whining up a storm), if >> routes or layovers are just plain silly (I once flew Kampala->Cairo via >> Lilongwe and Johannesburg, and don't get me started on San >> Francisco->Bangalore), or such. >> >> I don't think we have an appropriate emoticon for "I am so very OVER people >> whining about not being able to get end to end on a single airplane"... Presumably there is an important distinction between whining and serious criticism. I say this with some doubt, since postings like this are quite common and appear to confuse the two. For example, I challenge folks to find anyone having asserted the requirement to get "end to end on a single airplane". However it does evoke a convenient basis for dismissing serious discussion. One might even say that most of the whining about venue choice is by the people attaching the label whining to efforts at serious. IETF lists do get silly postings and one would think, by now, that we would all know how to distinguish between them and serious postings. Instead we often use the silly postings as an excuse to dismiss the serious ones. Tsk. Tsk. Discussion about travel to IETF meetings tends to be dominated by highly experienced travelers who already spend a great deal of their lives on planes and in foreign countries and for whom an extra connection really is in the noise. As such, it means that we ignore or denigrate those who do not travel as much but who want to come to a meeting to do work. For these latter folk, extra hassles (and costs) are significant, whether we respect that or not. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From ole@cisco.com Wed Aug 3 11:26:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38DF21F8584 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mn6wgBecBSg6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEBA21F8571 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=1156; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312396011; x=1313605611; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=+fso0XLCvH87oyckvFuEff1hx42rn2MAsr88DeglSSs=; b=g6K1yEbA3K9nONIKWruk4R/lgB83P3QXIcxhpO6+kjc2GE8K7AuOvV+4 TJ/t24GHg8I0e9d3zbv6ZvwQ/wHNuu4hY2/lYo5KSpNCx/A+73a5Jgu6J iZ/3M/7imODzDtn4focxfXCgvIrhOH5BCjeaq/hci2wmYm4l/eTmeKWnI 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al4YAGSSOU6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbAA7BQOYSo8JDXeBQAEBAQEDEgECASQtEhALRlcZIqoMAYMcDwGbPYMnF4MEBIdalQ2HGA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,311,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9357447" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2011 18:26:37 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73IQawl028540; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:26:36 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:26:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 18:26:39 -0000 I've said it before and I will say it again: * Limiting ourselves to "hubs" will further limit our ability to find suitable meeting venues, something which is already challenging because our dates are locked (for good reasons). * While it may be easy to define a hub on paper, reality tends to make things a lot more complicated. A fair number of our attendees are "locked in" with certain air carriers and are thus forced to travel through THEIR hubs rather than what we might define as hubs. * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive locations, and while we should not dismiss what you call "aggregated costs" (and pain), the additional travel expenses could easily be offset by lower (average) hotel and living costs, such as in Hiroshima. This isn't meant to be an argument for only choosing non-hubs, just an illustration that there are tradeoffs involved. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo From adam@nostrum.com Wed Aug 3 11:30:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D5721F86D8 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:30:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.591, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, PLING_QUERY=1.39, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rJqpnkcmnvTc for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D34C21F8906 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dn3-110.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73IU6lG044478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:30:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <4E3993AE.7000508@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:30:06 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Jacobsen References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 18:30:03 -0000 On 8/3/11 1:26 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive > locations I'm not so certain about that generalization. Major US hubs include Dallas, Houston and Atlanta -- which are, generally speaking, rather inexpensive compared to most off-the-beaten-path places we've gone resently. /a From ole@cisco.com Wed Aug 3 11:45:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A9211E8090 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.123, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJPqQGF3XNs6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5526D11E80B0 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:45:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=2978; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312397128; x=1313606728; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=KUwqJZjNyPcp1Zt/xr/5Zkz/Psmx+KlA4oSkgGcfUMA=; b=eFe4Ai1C/iLfi8KQLIX/2/4+t3yOSUBtH0bz0Zkv2kBIeKIBQwTkzSMd H40Wk33FIO4F6aHTPneOgPmxqSR6nibj+bEdEbDKHiryg4mKX0tz+lHgo NJc+uT5S2AHpm8MOAalO01fUh7C/J1YmUctGPTarnzHaaPF+mGfUhE45c E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EAJGWOU6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbAA8Bqdgd4FAAQEBAQIBEgECASQ/BQsLGC5XBjWHSqI2AYMcDwGKOpEDgy+DEwSHWpwl X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,311,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9360842" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2011 18:45:27 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73IjQEp017408; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:45:27 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:45:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: John C Klensin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 18:45:16 -0000 On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, John C Klensin wrote: > > Ole, > > Sure, but... > > First of all, while I think it is sensible and prudent for > IETF-related guests to avoid, e.g., extensive movie downloads on > already-overloaded hotel networks, I don't think we should be > spending energy worrying about or casting blame on IETF participants > as network abusers. If, e.g., some movie downloaders are going to > cause poor network performance, almost any guest with a laptop can > induce the same problem. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. All I am saying is that we have some actual data on typical useage of IETF guests (whether reasonable or not) and we could maybe use this data to judge if an overflow hotel is likely or not going to be able to deal with such a load. Again, nothing scientific and, yes, other "abusers" may exist -- not that I am calling them that. > > In my experience, many, if not most, hotel networks are woefully > underprovisioned. Sometimes that is just cutting costs, > sometimes it it having installed network arrangements when one > guest in 20 (or one in 50) used them, only to see that number > rise to one in five (or, with an IETF group, 49 of 50). > Sometimes it is just ignorance and/or stupidity. But the effect > is the same. I agree. > > In addition, while the problems are often with the available > bandwidth on the hotel's connections to the outside world, > underprovisioned or congested hotel LANs aren't unusual either. > I don't think any estimate or report of total available > bandwidth is going to help. Well, it may be a starting point, that's all. And since the underlying thread here is "you should have known/told us that the Delta network was going to suck" we can either try give some indication of this or we can simply say "you're on your own". > > That brings me back to three things as being potentially useful: > > -- When a block of rooms is negotiated with a particular hotel, > especially if "free Internet" is part of the negotiation, we > should exert reasonable efforts to be sure that the hotel > understands that we tend to all arrive with computers, than we > tend to be heavy and demanding network users, and that poor or > sucky Internet service is likely to result in a lot of irritated > (and probably irritating) customers. That is already being done. > > -- Independent of how well or poorly a hotel responds to advice > of that type, we should all understand --with reminder warnings > as appropriate-- that random-hotel Internet service is often > going to suck when a much larger-than-usual percentage of the > guests are intense Internet users, or Internet users at all. I agree. > > -- And all of us should be courteous enough to each other, and > adult enough, to cut back on any bandwidth-hogging activities at > the first sign of hotel network problems. Absolutely. > john > > Ole From ole@cisco.com Wed Aug 3 11:53:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1ABB11E808D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:53:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.965, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WrDkCRqz3Sua for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094FA11E808C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:53:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=1169; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312397606; x=1313607206; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=gDzu3qBokASy7hHhvT95ZDG/FsIR4l9pSoxDLKpOe/o=; b=Puhzo1a4xWakub9lQZpydGkgu+iRUbUk9kiKfoERmEL8drQHDkYC/gZU Qi7RCPQIEMRV7nutIUev2lNXv77No+7m1a9k2RvDYkI3V98Plbi/lSAiH idgprZpLG4IrrcifmhklRJ0pkGSSRB82FHMzbzsrSUZJG48OKmaTxm4ic g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgcQAE+YOU6rRDoI/2dsb2JhbAA/A6dTDXeBQAEBAQECARIBAgEkPwULCxguVwYTIodKokABgxwPAZs+gz6DBASHWpUNhxg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,311,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9363374" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2011 18:53:26 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73IrIbY012388; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:53:20 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Adam Roach In-Reply-To: <4E3993AE.7000508@nostrum.com> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <4E3993AE.7000508@nostrum.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 18:53:15 -0000 I was actually referring to the really MAJOR hubs: Chicago, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Paris, London, New York, Oslo [:-)] and so on. Generalizations aside, another tradeoff is the range of hotels in a given location. Cities like Paris, Tokyo and London have good transportation options and everything from luxury hotels to "stay with a family". It's not really possible to optimize for all the desirable features of our locations, but our starting point is a suitable meeting venue which everyone seems to agree QC had. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, Adam Roach wrote: > On 8/3/11 1:26 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive > > locations > > I'm not so certain about that generalization. Major US hubs include Dallas, > Houston and Atlanta -- which are, generally speaking, rather inexpensive > compared to most off-the-beaten-path places we've gone resently. > > /a > From fred@cisco.com Wed Aug 3 12:09:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A4821F8568 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:09:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.223 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.223 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqD5-3ctHOHN for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047B921F8560 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; l=524; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312398574; x=1313608174; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F53xMM10yd55Nd6/cK0TVT3r5oMFJ8Bmtc+Sr0TdVl4=; b=CSeSirfr3rjSZUHzhI0pOJECcV4wK+V9aBy+VydgikZ4XHSNFAR86RfU lNgb1zAgO6dawp3tdVMji016Fuzfvo8bA7+Ys4hA4lBhrrE0itMyclQjW YjmI3ZQY3RW3zij3YLoJeG09UlE9XRczdIVTITDm869aNVsvmSP9O0pnk 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlwYAMebOU6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCmEuPCQ13gUABAQEBAgESASc/BQsLRlc7h0qiQAGeboVjXwSHWoshhQeLfQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,311,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9375818" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2011 19:09:33 +0000 Received: from wl-dy-169-228-177-245.ucsd.edu ([10.21.72.200]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p73J9Q5L011876; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:09:32 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by wl-dy-169-228-177-245.ucsd.edu (PGP Universal service); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:09:32 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by wl-dy-169-228-177-245.ucsd.edu on Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:09:32 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:09:14 -0700 Message-Id: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> To: dcrocker@bbiw.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:09:21 -0000 On Aug 3, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote: > Preface: >=20 > Perhaps it is not unprecedented, but I do not recall seeing such a = strongly positive post-meeting set of postings before this, especially = in the face of a noticeably thin set of complaints. Whatever Quebec = City's magic, it worked impressively well and that definitely should = count for quite a lot. Hiroshima had a similar record, both in the "but darn it there was a = final leg to the trip" and "everything else was wonderful". From carlos@lacnic.net Wed Aug 3 12:11:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE15721F8669 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.09 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 802yMcZHxDlk for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C442C21F8568 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 85-7-200.lacnic.net.uy (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:6233:4bff:fe20:8385]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0781F308432; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:10:53 -0300 (UYT) Message-ID: <4E399D3C.5000300@lacnic.net> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:10:52 -0300 From: "Carlos M. Martinez" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Jacobsen References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <4E3993AE.7000508@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080809080406050009070009" X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: carlos@lacnic.net Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:11:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080809080406050009070009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quebec was great for the event itself (venue, hotels, food, sightseeing) and flights were definitely good enough. I'd be happy to attend another conference in Quebec City. As someone mentioned some emails ago, if the greatest complaints are an extra (30 minutes long) plane ride and air a bit cold on some rooms, then I believe the local hosts can be very proud of having held a great event. Carlos On 8/3/11 3:53 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > I was actually referring to the really MAJOR hubs: > > Chicago, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Paris, London, New York, Oslo [:-)] and so > on. > > Generalizations aside, another tradeoff is the range of hotels in a > given location. Cities like Paris, Tokyo and London have good > transportation options and everything from luxury hotels to "stay > with a family". It's not really possible to optimize for all the > desirable features of our locations, but our starting point is a > suitable meeting venue which everyone seems to agree QC had. > > Ole > > > Ole J. Jacobsen > Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal > Cisco Systems > Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 > E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj > Skype: organdemo > > > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011, Adam Roach wrote: > >> On 8/3/11 1:26 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >>> * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive >>> locations >> I'm not so certain about that generalization. Major US hubs include Dallas, >> Houston and Atlanta -- which are, generally speaking, rather inexpensive >> compared to most off-the-beaten-path places we've gone resently. >> >> /a >> > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees -- Carlos M. Martinez LACNIC I+D PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2 Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419 --------------080809080406050009070009 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="carlos.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="carlos.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Carlos Martinez Cagnazzo n:Martinez Cagnazzo;Carlos email;internet:carlos@lacnic.net tel;work:+598-2604-2222 tel;cell:+598-9-9245009 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --------------080809080406050009070009-- From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Wed Aug 3 12:15:58 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC95B21F8879 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qKZy-QA5VTu7 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0536021F885A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A63941ECB41C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:16:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:16:08 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: 81attendees@ietf.org Message-ID: <20110803191608.GJ31442@shinkuro.com> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <3DB5933F-4C22-42F9-A222-9CF02F199850@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DB5933F-4C22-42F9-A222-9CF02F199850@network-heretics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:15:59 -0000 On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 05:48:36PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > It might help even more if someone wanted to take on the task of writing a document called "Recommendations for Buffer and Congestion Management in Consumer-Grade Routers" > There's a whole working group with exactly that problem on its plate, unless I misread the charter of homenet quite incorrectly. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From moore@network-heretics.com Wed Aug 3 12:34:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810A421F8B7E for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:34:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.170, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AgSln8Nhy+UX for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3.smtp.messagingengine.com (out3.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF9C21F8B74 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B12B20375; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:35:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id :references:to; s=smtpout; bh=UjOZaSThZcr3MqOm6ojTfugFeFo=; b=W+ mfYnxb8z7kh+GDVmjSmqSR+fDgxsAT/OAtvwjwqzhQsQSuGpSN/Y9HMEZv7VMV5Y FMscdKuE0Es/CGt0dqDXu9090SRbc9g/cJJaz6Slq2mxu3ae3lPF0ACcuqiu9w6w IZWiUZpRij8UhilmHbtsiZRT5fB6kUt5VT1cd/A8c= X-Sasl-enc: 4jwZWdJshLmwwZQVzpFRGVG4frQf0StgskGnYQdtTJl8 1312400100 Received: from host65-16-145-177.birch.net (host65-16-145-177.birch.net [65.16.145.177]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DD3CF457C79; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: <20110803191608.GJ31442@shinkuro.com> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:34:58 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <3DB5933F-4C22-42F9-A222-9CF02F199850@network-heretics.com> <20110803191608.GJ31442@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:34:51 -0000 On Aug 3, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 at 05:48:36PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >> It might help even more if someone wanted to take on the task of = writing a document called "Recommendations for Buffer and Congestion = Management in Consumer-Grade Routers" >=20 > There's a whole working group with exactly that problem on its plate, > unless I misread the charter of homenet quite incorrectly. =20 Though this might fit within its charter, homenet's problems are a lot = bigger than that. Keith From david.black@emc.com Wed Aug 3 12:43:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52AC21F8B0E for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:43:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.574, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2dz+pbGsIgG for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AB521F88A0 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI02.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.55]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p73JhZf8014040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:43:35 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhubhoprd04.lss.emc.com [10.254.222.226]) by hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:43:22 -0400 Received: from mxhub03.corp.emc.com (mxhub03.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.105]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p73JhMtJ008947; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:43:22 -0400 Received: from mx14a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.245]) by mxhub03.corp.emc.com ([10.254.141.105]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:43:22 -0400 From: To: , <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:42:51 -0400 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxSCMP6/e73/rYqTxGhEIDFoX6+6QAC6sqw Message-ID: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E0589514380@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:43:36 -0000 +1 - speaking for myself as a long-time IETF participant (10+ years), Quebec City was easily one of the 3 best venues. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 2:10 PM > To: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >=20 > Preface: >=20 > Perhaps it is not unprecedented, but I do not recall seeing such a s= trongly > positive post-meeting set of postings before this, especially in the face= of a > noticeably thin set of complaints. Whatever Quebec City's magic, it work= ed > impressively well and that definitely should count for quite a lot. >=20 > In particular, since real attendees at recent meetings must be treate= d as > the sizable core population for future meetings, that reaction overrides = most > other concerns. >=20 > (Just to be thorough -- the concerns that I saw raised that seemed to hav= e a > base of agreement were: Delta's network, a tendency for very cold meetin= g > rooms, and high food prices. I also heard some complaints about food at = the > Hilton, but not on the list. Were there others?) >=20 >=20 > Regularly-scheduled programming: >=20 > As for some of the long-standing points about meeting at non-hub venues: >=20 >=20 > On 8/1/2011 5:32 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > SFO-ORD =3D about 4 hours > > > > ORD-YQB =3D about 2 hours >=20 > plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least 2-3 h= ours to > the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in-airport transfer= . >=20 > In addition, non-hub venues have much more fragile and limited connectivi= ty. > Quebec city is serviced by a couple of regional carriers, to only a few c= ities, > codeshares with major airlines notwithstanding. >=20 > Transitions always make a process more fragile and carry additional cost. >=20 > (This includes opportunities for luggage or the passenger to miss the > connection. I enjoyed both of these excellent experiences on this trip -= - one > going and one returning -- by way of demonstrating that these are not mat= ters of > theoretical concern.) >=20 > On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs 4-8 h= ours > round-trip, often also costing more money. >=20 > That's 500-1000 extra person days spent in transit. >=20 > I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated cost. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On 8/1/2011 2:57 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > >> Where it gets crazy is if there are not adequate > >> flights to support meeting attendance (if we wanted to have the IETF i= n Santa > >> Barbara, I'd be happy, but the rest of you would be whining up a storm= ), if > >> routes or layovers are just plain silly (I once flew Kampala->Cairo vi= a > >> Lilongwe and Johannesburg, and don't get me started on San > >> Francisco->Bangalore), or such. > >> > >> I don't think we have an appropriate emoticon for "I am so very OVER p= eople > >> whining about not being able to get end to end on a single airplane"..= . >=20 > Presumably there is an important distinction between whining and serious > criticism. I say this with some doubt, since postings like this are quit= e > common and appear to confuse the two. >=20 > For example, I challenge folks to find anyone having asserted the require= ment to > get "end to end on a single airplane". However it does evoke a convenien= t basis > for dismissing serious discussion. >=20 > One might even say that most of the whining about venue choice is by the = people > attaching the label whining to efforts at serious. >=20 > IETF lists do get silly postings and one would think, by now, that we wou= ld all > know how to distinguish between them and serious postings. Instead we oft= en use > the silly postings as an excuse to dismiss the serious ones. >=20 > Tsk. Tsk. >=20 > Discussion about travel to IETF meetings tends to be dominated by highly > experienced travelers who already spend a great deal of their lives on pl= anes > and in foreign countries and for whom an extra connection really is in th= e noise. >=20 > As such, it means that we ignore or denigrate those who do not travel as = much > but who want to come to a meeting to do work. For these latter folk, ext= ra > hassles (and costs) are significant, whether we respect that or not. >=20 > d/ >=20 > -- >=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 3 12:44:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8704311E808D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YcH6XgOaF-fA for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA86911E8086 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so992064vws.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:45:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gzyBX+zY+JJIDIjh3b3YoVktqQB03nuhayGDqWAdvyA=; b=QG3SQiDvvZ3bIfT0yGXTRhg70l+xvhvEe4b4wsibDpVWe1XeJuAIV8oV1X5iD8E4CP 54eEwJLHKdJRPwli7oyljdoE4Pg3WKEudGJqQKKANmR4ziViotukEUlhkrABsq1hgRY/ aaL41/HlFXtuLnFXtEYJbq2Kj6aleVhLWRQ2U= Received: by 10.52.23.40 with SMTP id j8mr6982597vdf.510.1312400709192; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.108] (c-24-218-177-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.177.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c13sm441521vcp.20.2011.08.03.12.45.07 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jim Gettys Message-ID: <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:45:06 -0400 From: Jim Gettys Organization: Bell Labs User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110627 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dcrocker@bbiw.net References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:44:57 -0000 On 08/03/2011 12:43 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: > On 8/1/2011 3:01 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >> >> "Expectations" are indeed important. >> >> Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which implies >> a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I am not going to >> attempt to create that list here, but I can well imagine some things >> that I should NOT be doing while on the hotel network, in >> consideration of my fellow IETFers. (Large downloads, live video...) > > Ole, > > At various times, such examples have been cited, effectively placing > the responsibility for poor hotel network performance onto IETF guests > at the hotel. > > Is this merely a matter of being thorough in listing theoretical > possibilities? Or do we have any hard data to support the theory that > IETF guests are, in fact, abusing the hotel networks? > > Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have > adequate resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of > guests? > > What should the site qualifying teams do to assess a hotel's network > capabilities? I know what some of that is already being done but it's > worth making sure that this issue is sufficiently covered by the site > qualifying teams. > > d/ > Hotel networks tend to be under provisioned in the first place; that just makes network problems (such as bufferbloat, which only is an issue when saturation occurs) worse. In my wanderings over the last year, I've had very bad experiences at most other hotels at peak hours, even those not occupied by computer geeks, but by typical "users". I think there is a lot of video streaming that has changed the workload considerably. The retirement of Windows XP is increasing the fraction of connections that will saturate any link even with a single TCP connection; so an increasing fraction of many other activies such as backup or large file copy will induce saturation. We may be polite to each other, but try explaining this to the unwashed masses, who want to watch tonight's episode of "House" or other show as they do at home. People aren't just reading email any more. We can test for whether the hotel's network and back haul network has problems using existing tools (e.g. netalyzr, the mlabs tools, or even iperf/netperf + ping) in advance. I suspect that most of the major hotels the IETF uses are less likely than most to use broadband connections for their backhaul as commonly found in smaller hotels/motels recently connected to the Internet. Resolving problems in advance may be more of a problem. On a couple occasions, I've tried to track down clue full people to talk to them, but as an individual patron of the hotel, had no traction in doing so, and the hotel networks seemed to be remotely managed by others. And once checked out, I had no incentive to continue trying. Wireless at a conference hotel is probably completely infeasible in the short term: the first wireless networks I've seen working well under load are those set up at NANOG and IETF, where both commercial grade AP's and really clue full configuration have managed to succeed. That's not even been carefully written down anywhere, though the principles of it is covered very quickly in Anton Kapela's lightning talk at NANOG 38. As soon as your wireless bandwidth is below that of the backhaul, your problems with bufferbloat will be in your host OS and the hotel's wireless gear; while we have some test bits for controlling buffering for Linux (the debloat-testing tree), I have no clue as to when you might see anything Mac or Windows; in the short term, you really want the bottleneck some place other than your wireless hop. Which hop is the bottleneck link easily varies depending on the ratio of the hotel's back haul is available to you and how much wireless bandwidth you can get. In the short term, I'd focus on seeing if the wired hotel network is provisioned properly under load, it's ISP runs with suitable AQM. At least then, if you plug into the wired ethernet, it should behave properly and degrade reasonably under load rather than falling off a cliff. - Jim From carlos@lacnic.net Wed Aug 3 12:52:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF8D21F8610 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.135 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.135 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KHia6iCD1yCX for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F5B21F861A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 85-7-200.lacnic.net.uy (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:6233:4bff:fe20:8385]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D5430845F; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:52:41 -0300 (UYT) Message-ID: <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:52:41 -0300 From: "Carlos M. Martinez" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Gettys References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> In-Reply-To: <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000209060204020000020503" X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: carlos@lacnic.net Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:52:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000209060204020000020503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe we need to solve the pesky quality-of-service-on-the-internet thing once and for all :-) Seriously, giving the fact that we are inventing this PCP thing for remote-controlling port forwarding, maybe we could do something similar for traffic class queues on WAN links, so the hotel (or other similarly under provisioned network) can set up its traffic queues on the remote side of the WAN link. The ISP could assign a "pipe" of, say, 5 mbps to Delta Hotel, and a (hopefully clueful) sys/net admin could set some traffic queues for video/browsing/email/bit torrent (yes, there are people who do torrents on hotels, i've seen it with Wireshark) within the 5 mbps pipe. Can we set the BoF date ?? :) cheers! Carlos On 8/3/11 4:45 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: > On 08/03/2011 12:43 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: >> On 8/1/2011 3:01 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >>> "Expectations" are indeed important. >>> >>> Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which implies >>> a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I am not going to >>> attempt to create that list here, but I can well imagine some things >>> that I should NOT be doing while on the hotel network, in >>> consideration of my fellow IETFers. (Large downloads, live video...) >> Ole, >> >> At various times, such examples have been cited, effectively placing >> the responsibility for poor hotel network performance onto IETF guests >> at the hotel. >> >> Is this merely a matter of being thorough in listing theoretical >> possibilities? Or do we have any hard data to support the theory that >> IETF guests are, in fact, abusing the hotel networks? >> >> Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have >> adequate resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of >> guests? >> >> What should the site qualifying teams do to assess a hotel's network >> capabilities? I know what some of that is already being done but it's >> worth making sure that this issue is sufficiently covered by the site >> qualifying teams. >> >> d/ >> > Hotel networks tend to be under provisioned in the first place; that > just makes network problems (such as bufferbloat, which only is an issue > when saturation occurs) worse. In my wanderings over the last year, > I've had very bad experiences at most other hotels at peak hours, even > those not occupied by computer geeks, but by typical "users". I think > there is a lot of video streaming that has changed the workload > considerably. The retirement of Windows XP is increasing the fraction > of connections that will saturate any link even with a single TCP > connection; so an increasing fraction of many other activies such as > backup or large file copy will induce saturation. > > We may be polite to each other, but try explaining this to the unwashed > masses, who want to watch tonight's episode of "House" or other show as > they do at home. People aren't just reading email any more. > > We can test for whether the hotel's network and back haul network has > problems using existing tools (e.g. netalyzr, the mlabs tools, or even > iperf/netperf + ping) in advance. I suspect that most of the major > hotels the IETF uses are less likely than most to use broadband > connections for their backhaul as commonly found in smaller > hotels/motels recently connected to the Internet. Resolving problems in > advance may be more of a problem. On a couple occasions, I've tried to > track down clue full people to talk to them, but as an individual patron > of the hotel, had no traction in doing so, and the hotel networks seemed > to be remotely managed by others. And once checked out, I had no > incentive to continue trying. > > Wireless at a conference hotel is probably completely infeasible in the > short term: the first wireless networks I've seen working well under > load are those set up at NANOG and IETF, where both commercial grade > AP's and really clue full configuration have managed to succeed. That's > not even been carefully written down anywhere, though the principles of > it is covered very quickly in Anton Kapela's lightning talk at NANOG 38. > > As soon as your wireless bandwidth is below that of the backhaul, your > problems with bufferbloat will be in your host OS and the hotel's > wireless gear; while we have some test bits for controlling buffering > for Linux (the debloat-testing tree), I have no clue as to when you > might see anything Mac or Windows; in the short term, you really want > the bottleneck some place other than your wireless hop. Which hop is > the bottleneck link easily varies depending on the ratio of the hotel's > back haul is available to you and how much wireless bandwidth you can get. > > In the short term, I'd focus on seeing if the wired hotel network is > provisioned properly under load, it's ISP runs with suitable AQM. At > least then, if you plug into the wired ethernet, it should behave > properly and degrade reasonably under load rather than falling off a cliff. > - Jim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees -- Carlos M. Martinez LACNIC I+D PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2 Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419 --------------000209060204020000020503 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="carlos.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="carlos.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Carlos Martinez Cagnazzo n:Martinez Cagnazzo;Carlos email;internet:carlos@lacnic.net tel;work:+598-2604-2222 tel;cell:+598-9-9245009 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --------------000209060204020000020503-- From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Wed Aug 3 12:53:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7834711E8088 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:53:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FPdrOoKTA4-r for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074FA11E807E for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BAEC51ECB41C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:53:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:53:31 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: 81attendees@ietf.org Message-ID: <20110803195331.GM31442@shinkuro.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <4E3993AE.7000508@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4E3993AE.7000508@nostrum.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:53:25 -0000 On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 01:30:06PM -0500, Adam Roach wrote: > I'm not so certain about that generalization. Major US hubs include > Dallas, Houston and Atlanta -- which are, generally speaking, rather > inexpensive compared to most off-the-beaten-path places we've gone > resently. Dallas is not a hub except maybe for Southwest. Dallas-Ft Worth is. But we have also heard endless complaints when there is not something within walking distance of the venue, and in my limited experience of Dallas-Ft Worth, even the other terminals aren't in walking distance. We did have a meeting not too far from that hub that I recall being unusually unproductive for me, partly because a large number of things I wanted to do on the Monday were cancelled because the hotel was built on the flood plane of a river, and it rained hard. I note that there is a meeting planned for Atlanta in the near future. I can't speak to Houston. Other obvious hubs, of course, are Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Tokyo, Hong Kong. Or, if we want to keep going to Canada, Toronto. Several of those are outstanding partly because of their expense, particularly if we also hang on to the criterion that people at the HQ hotel never have to venture into the big room with the blue ceiling in order to go to meetings. (When we met in Chicago, everyone seemed to complain about the noise. I had a good meeting there. I'd be happy to go back, except I bet the rates went up because they're not renovating the hotel any more.) I think the central problem here is a classic Arrow transitivity case. The set of preferences of the collective is not transitive (and under some definitions, therefore, not rational). Whether individuals' preferences are transitive I can't say. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Wed Aug 3 13:00:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C15921F861E for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:00:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Clg0w3XnsjkR for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D1E21F8564 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B05B91ECB41C; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:00:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:00:37 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: Keith Moore Message-ID: <20110803200037.GA36147@shinkuro.com> References: <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <3DB5933F-4C22-42F9-A222-9CF02F199850@network-heretics.com> <20110803191608.GJ31442@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 20:00:36 -0000 On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 03:34:58PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > Though this might fit within its charter, homenet's problems are a lot bigger than that. > Among others, interested participants can't get in the room :) But yes, I agree. -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 3 13:07:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A97221F855F for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:07:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.824 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.824 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MfMMtaWO3b-w for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88C221F8540 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vxi40 with SMTP id 40so1131060vxi.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Je+OLmBrBTegn+oFBPpb641SBkFqgQKxQRFGN/A7sFI=; b=sInMyfo0MNvIlC7C2xMEzcV2q6rl3c35lEAL/gaGG9ceOj25XIX/wppIC1lUaM6yI3 cRmP4G0VvLI/54dhfUAjEui7LZVcbpPTPj7zeFQKjIRSj7XyLVPhsVB9+1+ur7kpkAHa Eu+bBAcbRXT3cYZJ4jgqow+0eLv/EuvDdYmYA= Received: by 10.221.13.2 with SMTP id pk2mr1899665vcb.165.1312402072446; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.108] (c-24-218-177-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.177.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a10sm447929vcw.22.2011.08.03.13.07.50 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jim Gettys Message-ID: <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:07:49 -0400 From: Jim Gettys Organization: Bell Labs User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110627 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carlos M. Martinez" References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 20:07:46 -0000 On 08/03/2011 03:52 PM, Carlos M. Martinez wrote: > Maybe we need to solve the pesky quality-of-service-on-the-internet > thing once and for all :-) > > Seriously, giving the fact that we are inventing this PCP thing for > remote-controlling port forwarding, maybe we could do something similar > for traffic class queues on WAN links, so the hotel (or other similarly > under provisioned network) can set up its traffic queues on the remote > side of the WAN link. > > The ISP could assign a "pipe" of, say, 5 mbps to Delta Hotel, and a > (hopefully clueful) sys/net admin could set some traffic queues for > video/browsing/email/bit torrent (yes, there are people who do torrents > on hotels, i've seen it with Wireshark) within the 5 mbps pipe. > > Can we set the BoF date ?? :) > > cheers! > > Carlos Note that QOS, useful as it is, just moves what category of service suffers. The ultimate solution that our networks don't fall off of cliffs under load is timely notification of congestion (e.g. packet loss or ECN), and AQM to do so. Lying to TCP's servo system gets us into a world of hurt. You thought there was TCP congestion avoidance? Well, there was once (and I hope will be again...). Having said that, QOS is very, very useful at preventing out and out failures and to enforce policies; right now, lots of what we're calling "ants", those worker packets of DNS, DHCP, RA, etc, are getting lost in the current mess, with the resulting complete failures of applications. So I don't see solving bufferbloat as a AQM versus QOS question at all: both are useful (though if I have to only pick one, I'd pick working AQM)... - Jim > > On 8/3/11 4:45 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: >> On 08/03/2011 12:43 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: >>> On 8/1/2011 3:01 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >>>> "Expectations" are indeed important. >>>> >>>> Equally important is "common sense and common courtesy" which implies >>>> a number of do's and don'ts on the hotel network. I am not going to >>>> attempt to create that list here, but I can well imagine some things >>>> that I should NOT be doing while on the hotel network, in >>>> consideration of my fellow IETFers. (Large downloads, live video...) >>> Ole, >>> >>> At various times, such examples have been cited, effectively placing >>> the responsibility for poor hotel network performance onto IETF guests >>> at the hotel. >>> >>> Is this merely a matter of being thorough in listing theoretical >>> possibilities? Or do we have any hard data to support the theory that >>> IETF guests are, in fact, abusing the hotel networks? >>> >>> Is it equally plausible that problem hotels merely do not have >>> adequate resources for reasonable use by an Internet-centric block of >>> guests? >>> >>> What should the site qualifying teams do to assess a hotel's network >>> capabilities? I know what some of that is already being done but it's >>> worth making sure that this issue is sufficiently covered by the site >>> qualifying teams. >>> >>> d/ >>> >> Hotel networks tend to be under provisioned in the first place; that >> just makes network problems (such as bufferbloat, which only is an issue >> when saturation occurs) worse. In my wanderings over the last year, >> I've had very bad experiences at most other hotels at peak hours, even >> those not occupied by computer geeks, but by typical "users". I think >> there is a lot of video streaming that has changed the workload >> considerably. The retirement of Windows XP is increasing the fraction >> of connections that will saturate any link even with a single TCP >> connection; so an increasing fraction of many other activies such as >> backup or large file copy will induce saturation. >> >> We may be polite to each other, but try explaining this to the unwashed >> masses, who want to watch tonight's episode of "House" or other show as >> they do at home. People aren't just reading email any more. >> >> We can test for whether the hotel's network and back haul network has >> problems using existing tools (e.g. netalyzr, the mlabs tools, or even >> iperf/netperf + ping) in advance. I suspect that most of the major >> hotels the IETF uses are less likely than most to use broadband >> connections for their backhaul as commonly found in smaller >> hotels/motels recently connected to the Internet. Resolving problems in >> advance may be more of a problem. On a couple occasions, I've tried to >> track down clue full people to talk to them, but as an individual patron >> of the hotel, had no traction in doing so, and the hotel networks seemed >> to be remotely managed by others. And once checked out, I had no >> incentive to continue trying. >> >> Wireless at a conference hotel is probably completely infeasible in the >> short term: the first wireless networks I've seen working well under >> load are those set up at NANOG and IETF, where both commercial grade >> AP's and really clue full configuration have managed to succeed. That's >> not even been carefully written down anywhere, though the principles of >> it is covered very quickly in Anton Kapela's lightning talk at NANOG 38. >> >> As soon as your wireless bandwidth is below that of the backhaul, your >> problems with bufferbloat will be in your host OS and the hotel's >> wireless gear; while we have some test bits for controlling buffering >> for Linux (the debloat-testing tree), I have no clue as to when you >> might see anything Mac or Windows; in the short term, you really want >> the bottleneck some place other than your wireless hop. Which hop is >> the bottleneck link easily varies depending on the ratio of the hotel's >> back haul is available to you and how much wireless bandwidth you can get. >> >> In the short term, I'd focus on seeing if the wired hotel network is >> provisioned properly under load, it's ISP runs with suitable AQM. At >> least then, if you plug into the wired ethernet, it should behave >> properly and degrade reasonably under load rather than falling off a cliff. >> - Jim >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From john-ietf@jck.com Wed Aug 3 13:09:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083C121F874C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:09:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.644 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.644 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLcrlP7ZrRI2 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33A421F8745 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Qohku-00083C-D9; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:09:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:09:27 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Andrew Sullivan , Keith Moore Message-ID: <3CE2B5A82FD936D78D8F2534@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <20110803200037.GA36147@shinkuro.com> References: <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <3DB5933F-4C22-42F9-A222-9CF02F199850@network-heretics.com> <20110803191608.GJ31442@shinkuro.com> <20110803200037.GA36147@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 20:09:35 -0000 --On Wednesday, August 03, 2011 16:00 -0400 Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 03:34:58PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >> >> Though this might fit within its charter, homenet's problems >> are a lot bigger than that. >> > > Among others, interested participants can't get in the room :) I assumed that was just testing a congestion-reduction mechanism based on a restricted entry model. New people could get in only when older ones left. Not quite token-passing, but close. Pretty successful experiment, too. john From mellon@fugue.com Wed Aug 3 14:41:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CB511E8097 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.409 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.409 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42q-y6WXY+z4 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (173-162-214-217-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.162.214.217]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7C711E807C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (unknown [64.215.212.152]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8C5523802EA for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:41:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E70DBE18-A799-4B7F-8181-3FE510D67920" Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:41:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:41:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E70DBE18-A799-4B7F-8181-3FE510D67920 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Aug 3, 2011, at 2:10 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: > (Just to be thorough -- the concerns that I saw raised that seemed to = have a base of agreement were: Delta's network, a tendency for very = cold meeting rooms, and high food prices. I also heard some complaints = about food at the Hilton, but not on the list. Were there others?) Of course, very cold meeting rooms seem to be a pretty common theme. = This is not the first IETF where my teeth have been chattering as I = tried to speak into the mic. --Apple-Mail=_E70DBE18-A799-4B7F-8181-3FE510D67920 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii (Just to be = thorough -- the concerns that I saw raised that seemed to have a base of = agreement were:  Delta's network, a tendency for very cold meeting = rooms, and high food prices. I also heard some complaints about food at = the Hilton, but not on the list.  Were there = others?)

Of course, very cold = meeting rooms seem to be a pretty common theme.   This is not the = first IETF where my teeth have been chattering as I tried to speak into = the mic.

= --Apple-Mail=_E70DBE18-A799-4B7F-8181-3FE510D67920-- From mellon@fugue.com Wed Aug 3 14:47:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169E11E80AD for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:47:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.409 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.409 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h57vvJJBq+vp for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (173-162-214-217-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.162.214.217]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFE911E8097 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (unknown [64.215.212.152]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A8CB23802EA for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:47:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BEEDA2C4-20AD-420C-B01A-DCED60A534A0" Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:47:44 -0400 In-Reply-To: To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Message-Id: <744D8CA9-9C01-41A5-A22C-CDF2F4E904EF@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:47:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BEEDA2C4-20AD-420C-B01A-DCED60A534A0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Aug 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > Hiroshima had a similar record, both in the "but darn it there was a = final leg to the trip" and "everything else was wonderful". I don't mean to criticize excessively, but the complaints about how hard = Hiroshima was to get to pretty much blew my mind. It was not only = easy, but pleasant. The people who had trouble were the ones who = refused to use ground transportation, even though ground transportation = in Japan is much better than air transport. Traveling to IETF requires = a bit of advance planning. If you do the homework, which mostly = involves asking people who know the area what to do, you get there, and = it's not a problem. If you don't, you have a difficult time. This is a small problem, and few people complain about it. I would = complain pretty loudly if I had to go to Dallas for every IETF=97there's = no food, and you have to rent a car, because there is no public = transport, and the hotels are all out in the middle of nowhere. You'd = be trading an extra hour or three of travel on either end for daily = hassles. In QC, there was a vegetarian cafeteria two blocks from the = hotel, and tons of good restaurants, so you could just stay in the hotel = and be done with it. --Apple-Mail=_BEEDA2C4-20AD-420C-B01A-DCED60A534A0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Hiroshima had = a similar record, both in the "but darn it there was a final leg to the = trip" and "everything else was = wonderful".

I don't mean to = criticize excessively, but the complaints about how hard Hiroshima was = to get to pretty much blew my mind.   It was not only easy, but = pleasant.   The people who had trouble were the ones who refused to = use ground transportation, even though ground transportation in Japan is = much better than air transport.   Traveling to IETF requires a bit = of advance planning.   If you do the homework, which mostly = involves asking people who know the area what to do, you get there, and = it's not a problem.   If you don't, you have a difficult = time.

This is a small problem, and few people = complain about it.   I would complain pretty loudly if I had to go = to Dallas for every IETF=97there's no food, and you have to rent a car, = because there is no public transport, and the hotels are all out in the = middle of nowhere.   You'd be trading an extra hour or three of = travel on either end for daily hassles.   In QC, there was a = vegetarian cafeteria two blocks from the hotel, and tons of good = restaurants, so you could just stay in the hotel and be done with = it.

= --Apple-Mail=_BEEDA2C4-20AD-420C-B01A-DCED60A534A0-- From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Wed Aug 3 15:14:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984E921F8574 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.793 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.793 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.585, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8BReJb2yQ-w for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9029021F856A for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so13408vws.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:15:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=n3kPAPvTFxlXubGYuGyvEzxUV45RoQZ/sJbpcj0dUz4=; b=kmk4zgcliCiwEdhOkLNN/ZfJ/+pLYLsDDkr2Arc/SOKG9djXx0uXgjteAAlp3WD0Mo UU57foQAh1RUmyvL5XoQ+vUdVxPqrIxw2gJOWMBKork6xXzFtFw2c8fPlcivSXZ9By61 Xpa4JHHtXgwOgz9VWrsWTdmb4BACsqmS1kc7I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.28.48 with SMTP id y16mr67548vdg.384.1312409705178; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.167.34 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <744D8CA9-9C01-41A5-A22C-CDF2F4E904EF@fugue.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <744D8CA9-9C01-41A5-A22C-CDF2F4E904EF@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:15:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Ted Lemon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307c9e7046e64b04a9a1325a Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 22:14:53 -0000 --20cf307c9e7046e64b04a9a1325a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, there has been alot of development in downtown Dallas in recent years since the last IETF. The Anatole, of course, was a poor choice in general. Dallas does have public transport - Dart light rail actually come= s all the way out to where I live now and I'm 25 miles away from downtown. However, I would absolutely recommend that IETF *never* consider having a meeting in Dallas in the summer. It would actually be unhealthy for folks that aren't accustomed to the heat. I certainly agree that as far as restaurant choices, QC was superior to any other venue that I've been too in the past 13 years. The vegetarian restuarant was certainly top notch and it was allergy friendly to boot. Mary. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > > Hiroshima had a similar record, both in the "but darn it there was a fina= l > leg to the trip" and "everything else was wonderful". > > > I don't mean to criticize excessively, but the complaints about how hard > Hiroshima was to get to pretty much blew my mind. It was not only easy, > but pleasant. The people who had trouble were the ones who refused to u= se > ground transportation, even though ground transportation in Japan is much > better than air transport. Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance > planning. If you do the homework, which mostly involves asking people w= ho > know the area what to do, you get there, and it's not a problem. If you > don't, you have a difficult time. > > This is a small problem, and few people complain about it. I would > complain pretty loudly if I had to go to Dallas for every IETF=97there's = no > food, and you have to rent a car, because there is no public transport, a= nd > the hotels are all out in the middle of nowhere. You'd be trading an ex= tra > hour or three of travel on either end for daily hassles. In QC, there w= as > a vegetarian cafeteria two blocks from the hotel, and tons of good > restaurants, so you could just stay in the hotel and be done with it. > > > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > --20cf307c9e7046e64b04a9a1325a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, there has been alot of development in downtown Dallas in recent y= ears since the last IETF. =A0The Anatole, of course, was a poor choice in g= eneral. =A0Dallas does have public transport - Dart light rail actually com= es all the way out to where I live now and I'm 25 miles away from downt= own. =A0However, I would absolutely recommend that IETF *never* consider ha= ving a meeting in Dallas in the summer. =A0It would actually be unhealthy f= or folks that aren't accustomed to the heat.=A0

I certainly agree that as far as restaurant choices, QC was = superior to any other venue that I've been too in the past 13 years. = =A0The vegetarian restuarant was certainly top notch and it was allergy fri= endly to boot. =A0

Mary.=A0


O= n Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
On Aug 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, F= red Baker wrote:
Hiroshima had a similar record, both in the "but= darn it there was a final leg to the trip" and "everything else = was wonderful".

I don't mean to criticize excessivel= y, but the complaints about how hard Hiroshima was to get to pretty much bl= ew my mind. =A0 It was not only easy, but pleasant. =A0 The people who had = trouble were the ones who refused to use ground transportation, even though= ground transportation in Japan is much better than air transport. =A0 Trav= eling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning. =A0 If you do the homewor= k, which mostly involves asking people who know the area what to do, you ge= t there, and it's not a problem. =A0 If you don't, you have a diffi= cult time.

This is a small problem, and few people complain about = it. =A0 I would complain pretty loudly if I had to go to Dallas for every I= ETF=97there's no food, and you have to rent a car, because there is no = public transport, and the hotels are all out in the middle of nowhere. =A0 = You'd be trading an extra hour or three of travel on either end for dai= ly hassles. =A0 In QC, there was a vegetarian cafeteria two blocks from the= hotel, and tons of good restaurants, so you could just stay in the hotel a= nd be done with it.


_______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


--20cf307c9e7046e64b04a9a1325a-- From mehmet@icann.org Wed Aug 3 15:47:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC99E21F8781 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4z+4N3xpZYoB for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org (expfe100-1.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7631521F85C4 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.236]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:48:06 -0700 From: Mehmet Akcin To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:48:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: OC crew Thread-Index: AcxSL2jRcTQQSYfwQ7KE8yBxdM13hQ== Message-ID: <594C89F0-CAB3-4C4E-BA48-28B095547D2E@icann.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [81attendees] OC crew X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 22:47:54 -0000 Hi, I noticed I was in the same plane on the way going to QC and back from SNA = / Orange County , CA airport. it would be nice to know other regular attendees of IETF who lives in town = to perhaps do some regular beer'n geek sorta events. contact me off-list if you are one of those :) mehmet= From rpelletier@isoc.org Wed Aug 3 16:21:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB6F321F8777 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.444, BAYES_50=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRGpj4efYom3 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp111.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp111.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.111]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDF421F876F for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp11.relay.dfw1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8ECAED036B for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:22:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: by smtp11.relay.dfw1a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: rpelletier-AT-isoc.org) with ESMTPSA id 093C2D0365 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:22:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Pelletier Ray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8K2) Message-Id: <93976014-50E4-4B59-88BA-99B5672B2B17@isoc.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:21:58 -0400 To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8K2) Subject: [81attendees] DC crew X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 23:21:53 -0000 Hoping to identify DC-area IETFers for interim good times Please respond directly Thanks Ray From randy@psg.com Wed Aug 3 17:46:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C8E11E80B7 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.104, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H9rxUoOKb+gF for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A2811E80B0 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rair.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Qom4u-000GZc-01; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:46:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:46:22 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jim Gettys In-Reply-To: <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:46:17 -0000 > Note that QOS, useful as it is, just moves what category of service > suffers. bingo! qos is about whose/which packets to drop. i am not paid to drop packets, i am paid to deliver them. randy From eburger@cs.georgetown.edu Wed Aug 3 17:52:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B619221F8797 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1V-+dtv8z65J for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from karma.cs.georgetown.edu (karma.cs.georgetown.edu [141.161.20.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB5A21F8794 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by karma.cs.georgetown.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3430D35012; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at cs.georgetown.edu Received: from karma.cs.georgetown.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (karma.cs.georgetown.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jsi53-vw+LcU; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (cpe-72-226-11-112.nycap.res.rr.com [72.226.11.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by karma.cs.georgetown.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D45D34EE1; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-38--895483029; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Burger Eric In-Reply-To: <93976014-50E4-4B59-88BA-99B5672B2B17@isoc.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:45 -0400 Message-Id: <0711229C-0409-495C-9708-44823BE8ECC6@cs.georgetown.edu> References: <93976014-50E4-4B59-88BA-99B5672B2B17@isoc.org> To: Pelletier Ray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] DC crew X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:52:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail-38--895483029 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's not DC Crew, that's Columbus. We're DC United :-) [Soccer BOF folks know what I'm talking about] On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:21 PM, Pelletier Ray wrote: > Hoping to identify DC-area IETFers for interim good times > Please respond directly > Thanks > Ray > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees --Apple-Mail-38--895483029 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIPNzCCBN0w ggPFoAMCAQICEHGS++YZX6xNEoV0cTSiGKcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwezELMAkGA1UEBhMCR0Ix GzAZBgNVBAgMEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBwwHU2FsZm9yZDEaMBgGA1UECgwR Q29tb2RvIENBIExpbWl0ZWQxITAfBgNVBAMMGEFBQSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTZXJ2aWNlczAeFw0w NDAxMDEwMDAwMDBaFw0yODEyMzEyMzU5NTlaMIGuMQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzELMAkGA1UECBMCVVQx 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mKFXl+7yL1Hmt/Gc6h6x/GlR0hKYaR5lDTW7kLtZSi2JaIyyQjc6pr4LXFWVpybWsnktRdr2cKzK CEBAOJOjlrIWYsWdm4164yidT1T8O+Uz1DBIxXmUMMAhmsfpVLDPJNv7NVvls/haY4/vumbpi8c+ RKADFmK8RA7LDBqxySddCZ+HJzUvZwnt1R8OR3yuzOmwGwOVWkeNvHVmslgam1UAAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-38--895483029-- From jhw@apple.com Wed Aug 3 17:53:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C1321F8801 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.655 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.655 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VYxSvgWJKNUQ for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (honeycrisp.apple.com [17.151.62.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC14E21F87C7 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:53:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Received: from relay14.apple.com ([17.128.113.52]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u4-20.01 64bit (built Nov 21 2010)) with ESMTPS id <0LPD003I7P5AMLN1@mail-out.apple.com> for 81attendees@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807134-b7c71ae0000014d0-68-4e39ec6f9b01 Received: from kencur (kencur.apple.com [17.151.62.38]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (RC4-MD5/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay14.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 37.35.05328.07CE93E4; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kallisti.apple.com (kallisti.apple.com [17.193.13.64]) by kencur.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u4-20.01 64bit (built Nov 21 2010)) with ESMTPSA id <0LPD00BYCP5HWH90@kencur.apple.com> for 81attendees@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT) From: james woodyatt In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:53:40 -0700 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <79C3116E-B17B-4B69-947A-CD3E1B4D8F57@apple.com> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> To: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OTbfgjaWfwak3nBabdr9hdWD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxp32p0wFf5kr1rWdY2xgbGPuYuTkkBAwkfj/7woLhC0mceHe ejYQW0ignUni1jJnEJtXQFDix+R7YDXMAjoSvd+/AfVyAdWsZpJYvmYj2CBhATeJ0xd3M4LY bAIqEt8u32UCsTkFtCQuTpkM1MzBwSKgKnFkIi/EHG2JJ+8usELMt5Fonb2RCWJmI5vEh4cr wWaKCEhIzLn0Beo4eYnFLZ8ZJzDyz0Jy0ywkN81CMncBI/MqRsGi1JzESkMTvcSCgpxUveT8 3E2MoBBrKDTZwXjwJ/8hRgEORiUeXskESz8h1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIrzzKoFCvCmJlVWpRfnx RaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEeW+/N/MTEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2CyTJxcEo1MCawHjz3YErTNK3D5wsl1gWz x7MGdaZrXG349T5Cf2vkt/d6Fp/WqAi9av7a78tV/+JkbbC/ydW2B8sW79yvOEvziolUUoGE oNPKX1/P6swKDc5K0NpwcHE/2x71TVfzrLgfVtgtvON2bN46lVXVNRXuC5WyE79byvgWybs8 ao02y2GLfxDzQomlOCPRUIu5qDgRAOwWJ2stAgAA Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:53:31 -0000 On Aug 3, 2011, at 17:46 , Randy Bush wrote: >=20 > i am not paid to drop packets, i am paid to deliver them. Air Canada seems to have taken a similar view with my baggage on the = flight home from Qu=E9bec. Apparently, I'm to be thankful my baggage = was delivered to my home at all. It's not like a tardy delivery could = cost me any money or anything... At least all the fragments arrived in order. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, core os networking From cuiyang@huawei.com Wed Aug 3 17:59:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F2211E80B0 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:59:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.305, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NX4ML9mlS1V4 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0238621F8588 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPD002Z5PF2SL@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for 81attendees@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:59:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPD00HNRPF2XP@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for 81attendees@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:59:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ACW76297; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:59:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.93) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:59:20 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.93]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:59:23 +0800 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:59:21 +0000 From: Cui Yang In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.108.64.159] To: Tina TSOU , Fred Baker , Thomas Heide Clausen Message-id: <8CC0CB0BCAE52F46882E17828A9AE21606C5E09E@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-index: AQHMTy0ag6ib+lDUoEOA6K9vzZQujpUG10qs//+o64CAAAcDgIAAcpyAgAENoICAAAaKgIAACPkAgAACHICAA8o5kA== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <35029755-4F66-4ACD-A76B-3EE47D5ABFD7@cisco.com> Cc: "<81attendees@ietf.org>" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:59:14 -0000 Support! I was once in a crypto conference with a Beach-Barbecue in Santa Barbara. That is a splendid experience. But be sure to take your coat, it's cold at night even in August :-) -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tina TSOU Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:00 AM To: Fred Baker; Thomas Heide Clausen Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Fully support. I'm sure the work will be progressed more smoothly in the beach. It is also convenient for people going from northern California where all these companies are located to southern California. Best Regards, Tina TSOU http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html -----Original Message----- From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:53 PM To: Thomas Heide Clausen Cc: <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! On Aug 1, 2011, at 3:20 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen wrote: > ps: Having an IETF in Santa Barbara would actually be a splendid idea: even though I likely would have two or three connections, I can quite easily imagine quite enjoying a beach-BOF or two.... :-) _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing list 81attendees@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From msk@cloudmark.com Wed Aug 3 20:23:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3717321F86CA for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.749, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bfWLzgVKzPjM for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE8A21F86C7 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by malice.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.71]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:24:10 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Ray Bellis , "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:24:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AQHMTy0atj57J3tPW0G2CXFxSCDC/ZUG10zrgAAeQoCAAAcDgIAAcpyAgAAW/wCABIZDQA== Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <9874B48E-1D92-4BAA-9BBD-F6FB4EAB5374@nominet.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <9874B48E-1D92-4BAA-9BBD-F6FB4EAB5374@nominet.org.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56DEXCHC2corpclo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 03:23:57 -0000 --_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56DEXCHC2corpclo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hubs that feed the major Canadian airports that are not in the US might als= o have such restrictions. How about we just gradually disqualify all possible venues and hold future = meetings via jabber only just so everyone can avoid all possible inconvenie= nces and restrictions? Oh crap, I forgot time zones! Sheesh. From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Ray Bellis Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 12:14 AM To: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! However for many people two of those four require getting a transit VISA fo= r the US, in addition to any VISA required to enter Canada... Ray --_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56DEXCHC2corpclo_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hubs that feed the major Canadian airports that are not in the U= S might also have such restrictions.


How about we just gradually disqualify all possible venues a= nd hold future meetings via jabber only just so everyone can avoid all poss= ible inconveniences and restrictions?  Oh crap, I forgot time zones!

 

Sheesh.

 

From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Ray Bellis
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 12= :14 AM
To: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attende= es] are we getting complacent? Good job!

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

 

However for many people two of those four= require getting a transit VISA for the US, in addition to any VISA require= d to enter Canada...

&nb= sp;

Ray

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

&nb= sp;

= --_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56DEXCHC2corpclo_-- From msk@cloudmark.com Wed Aug 3 20:49:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C403C21F8834 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.742, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4mCuJ6J2hZHU for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A46721F880C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by malice.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.71]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:49:26 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:49:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxSCLTSzxom9pvhSB+lD8/bihmxLAATwauw Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 03:49:12 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 11:10 AM > To: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >=20 > On 8/1/2011 5:32 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > SFO-ORD =3D about 4 hours > > > > ORD-YQB =3D about 2 hours >=20 > plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least 2-3 h= ours to > the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in-airport > transfer. I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the last time I was = given a layover anywhere close to that long. Mine are typically anywhere f= rom 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no delays or missed connections. Sometimes = I actually wish they were longer. > On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs 4-8 h= ours > round-trip, often also costing more money. Conversely, a flight to a hub rather than through one is itself often more = expensive. I remember noting that flying from SF to Toronto through Denver= or Chicago one year cost $280, while flying from SF to either of them was = well over $300. I realize that's not a huge dollar difference but it's an = interesting data point. > I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated cost. When I weigh the potential costs of a layover against the idea of only ever= going to a handful of major transit cities, I'll take the former. I reali= ze the main question is "Is the main purpose of the trip to work, or to be = a tourist?" and I also realize there's a non-trivial sector of the IETF tha= t is self-funded. But, speaking only for myself, I'd be less likely to go = regularly if it consisted of a rotation among a limited number of major tra= nsit hubs, whether I'm sponsored or self-funded. The entire experience wou= ld begin to get dull; to me, then, the layover risk you've described is ult= imately worth it. From msk@cloudmark.com Wed Aug 3 20:52:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE65C21F880C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.737, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KtCb8A4R9xjS for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FA121F84F7 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by malice.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.71]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:47 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:52:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AcxSJhd1RByrw1j7Qrabh0bMd784bwAM9QMA Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56FEXCHC2corpclo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 03:52:34 -0000 --_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56FEXCHC2corpclo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Every working group will be issued a set of hoodies in the future. Sorted. From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Ted Lemon Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 2:41 PM To: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! On Aug 3, 2011, at 2:10 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: (Just to be thorough -- the concerns that I saw raised that seemed to have = a base of agreement were: Delta's network, a tendency for very cold meetin= g rooms, and high food prices. I also heard some complaints about food at t= he Hilton, but not on the list. Were there others?) Of course, very cold meeting rooms seem to be a pretty common theme. This= is not the first IETF where my teeth have been chattering as I tried to sp= eak into the mic. --_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56FEXCHC2corpclo_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Every working group will be issued a set of hoodies in the futur= e.  Sorted.

&nbs= p;

From: 81attendee= s-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 2:41 PM
To: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting = complacent? Good job!

 

On Aug 3, 2011, at 2:1= 0 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote:

(Just to be thorough -- the concerns that I saw raised that seemed to hav= e a base of agreement were:  Delta's network, a tendency for very cold= meeting rooms, and high food prices. I also heard some complaints about fo= od at the Hilton, but not on the list.  Were there others?)

&n= bsp;

Of course, very cold meeting rooms = seem to be a pretty common theme.   This is not the first IETF where m= y teeth have been chattering as I tried to speak into the mic.

 

= --_000_F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F13512DF56FEXCHC2corpclo_-- From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Thu Aug 4 05:48:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFD621F8B1A for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.805 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.805 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.595, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2yxH3QttyhVo for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000:226:55ff:fe57:14db]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2FFD21F8B11 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 05:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ringo.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:c000:21d:60ff:fed7:e732]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DFB6E20E64 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4E3A952D.8000005@viagenie.ca> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:48:45 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110428 Fedora/3.1.10-1.fc15 Lightning/1.0b3pre Thunderbird/3.1.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:48:32 -0000 On 2011-08-03 17:41, Ted Lemon wrote: > Of course, very cold meeting rooms seem to be a pretty common theme. > This is not the first IETF where my teeth have been chattering as I > tried to speak into the mic. Even Maastricht, for which we had people complaining on the mailing list weeks in advance about the lack of air conditioning, was freezing. I guess us chilly people just have to deal with it by wearing more so that the sweaty people don't have to walk around naked. ;) Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From johnl@iecc.com Thu Aug 4 06:16:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3202521F8B2C for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.83 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.83 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L0PC-ICVxEgm for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BBE21F8545 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 40918 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2011 13:16:22 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=9fd5.4e3a9ba6.k1108; bh=YBpzxRDY3L9H5KiITQaYIVt1hkKO+GFEooYedKWPwsw=; b=OxFkJkWnM3CyxKHPIlHeF0LCwRCMq84JFLho/6dvQzqbsjv7bljqOKLEKdJwlwKclBh9GnapgX5IBe7ABK/kJMyxyUGSTvt7EfiMvM7kgRAKVIaO1hPag0RK9GyoWbml7Airj/m3KM0AHWyYboXncHKWryHx+o8aj2JKVXXTogU= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 4 Aug 2011 13:16:00 -0000 Date: 4 Aug 2011 09:16:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Simon Perreault" In-Reply-To: <4E3A952D.8000005@viagenie.ca> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <4E3A952D.8000005@viagenie.ca> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:16:13 -0000 > I guess us chilly people just have to deal with it by wearing more so > that the sweaty people don't have to walk around naked. ;) Speaking as a big sweaty guy, it's probably a good tradeoff. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly From dhc@dcrocker.net Thu Aug 4 06:24:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A60D21F8A1A for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kkm21FKXEyfV for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E75F21F89C2 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.156] (adsl-68-122-69-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.122.69.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p74DOjAZ019259 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:24:50 -0700 Message-ID: <4E3A9D97.1040509@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 06:24:39 -0700 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Thu, 04 Aug 2011 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:24:37 -0000 On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > qos is about whose/which packets to drop. i am not paid to drop > packets, i am paid to deliver them. Excellent. Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely. The knee of the curve is a waste of our efforts. Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to downsides. Armies would never give thought to retreat. Armies are there to advance, not retreat. Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers getting injured. Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt. The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing. Investors would never have to worry about the market going down. Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the need to worry about unpleasant realities? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From john-ietf@jck.com Thu Aug 4 06:36:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B988321F8AA8 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.738, BAYES_00=-2.599, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fAkBrwWZk4CJ for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A4721F8A95 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Qoy62-0003Uu-1C; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:36:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:36:21 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , 81attendees@ietf.org Message-ID: <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion (was: Re: are we getting complacent? Good job!) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 13:36:08 -0000 --On Wednesday, August 03, 2011 20:49 -0700 "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrote: >... >> plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at >> least 2-3 hours to the total trip time, counting landing and >> takeoff and in-airport transfer. > > I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the > last time I was given a layover anywhere close to that long. > Mine are typically anywhere from 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no > delays or missed connections. Sometimes I actually wish they > were longer. Yes. With the understanding that I share what I understand to be Ole's and Fred's position that the particular focus on plane changes has become a bit silly, I've found that "normal" intra-line airline schedules for transfers at ORD are often made at a dead run -- sometimes much less than 50-90 minutes. I've often had to insist on earlier flights out to provide what I consider a reasonable margin of safety against missing a connection if the inbound flight is delayed but, at that point, I'm to blame for the longer layover, not the airline or airport. The situation changes if I'm inbound on an international flight and have to go through customs and immigration at ORD (or anywhere else) and then have to pro forma recheck luggage, but that is a rather different problem. All things being equal, I prefer to not have to check in for another flight and get back on a plane after a long international flight and dealing with bureaucrats, but, given considerations others have discussed, I accept the periodic inevitability of that. I think it is reasonable to be _much_ more concerned about intermodal changes. Not only are, e.g., plane-> train changes often time-consuming but, because there is rarely any schedule coordination between carriers, it is hard to sort tickets out remotely for some countries (but not others), and the change often involves dragging luggage around (not merely collecting it and redepositing it some meters away). Note that is an objection to the transfer process (especially when exhausted after a long trip), not to trains (which are usually great in countries in which they actually work -- opinions about which countries those are differ somewhat). john From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Aug 4 07:37:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF6E21F8B15 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 07:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.365, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, PLING_QUERY=1.39, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wz0wt4uvLZbG for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 07:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail6.alcatel.fr (smail6.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2818121F8B11 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 07:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.62]) by smail6.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p74Ebikq001754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:37:45 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.45]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.62]) with mapi; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:37:44 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:37:42 +0200 Thread-Topic: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion (was: Re: are we getting complacent? Good job!) Thread-Index: AcxSq4cRSkK6w/PLRRKX0C6SMrItEAAB3v+w Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.84 Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion (was: Re: are we getting complacent? Good job!) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 14:37:32 -0000 > I think it is reasonable to be _much_ more concerned about > intermodal changes. Not only are, e.g., plane-> train changes > often time-consuming but, because there is rarely any schedule > coordination between carriers, it is hard to sort tickets out > remotely for some countries (but not others), and the change > often involves dragging luggage around (not merely collecting it > and redepositing it some meters away). Note that is an > objection to the transfer process (especially when exhausted > after a long trip), not to trains (which are usually great in > countries in which they actually work -- opinions about which > countries those are differ somewhat). I could apply many of the arguments above to inter airline transfer at ORD = for incoming international travelers. In that respect, I'd much rather do a= change from plane to train at Brussels that a transit between terminals at= ORD. At the end of the day, there are no absolute answers to this. All one can d= o for any candidate location is take a sample of visitors and see what thei= r candidate travel plans might be, and as a result, identify any downsides = in terms of time, cost, lost baggage, etc. And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this location before = and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When can we have anothe= r meeting in Australia? Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of John C Klensin > Sent: 04 August 2011 14:36 > To: Murray S. Kucherawy; 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport > discussion (was: Re: are we getting complacent? Good job!) >=20 >=20 >=20 > --On Wednesday, August 03, 2011 20:49 -0700 "Murray S. > Kucherawy" wrote: >=20 > >... > >> plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at > >> least 2-3 hours to the total trip time, counting landing and > >> takeoff and in-airport transfer. > > > > I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the > > last time I was given a layover anywhere close to that long. > > Mine are typically anywhere from 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no > > delays or missed connections. Sometimes I actually wish they > > were longer. >=20 > Yes. >=20 > With the understanding that I share what I understand to be > Ole's and Fred's position that the particular focus on plane > changes has become a bit silly, I've found that "normal" > intra-line airline schedules for transfers at ORD are often made > at a dead run -- sometimes much less than 50-90 minutes. I've > often had to insist on earlier flights out to provide what I > consider a reasonable margin of safety against missing a > connection if the inbound flight is delayed but, at that point, > I'm to blame for the longer layover, not the airline or airport. >=20 > The situation changes if I'm inbound on an international flight > and have to go through customs and immigration at ORD (or > anywhere else) and then have to pro forma recheck luggage, but > that is a rather different problem. All things being equal, I > prefer to not have to check in for another flight and get back > on a plane after a long international flight and dealing with > bureaucrats, but, given considerations others have discussed, I > accept the periodic inevitability of that. >=20 > I think it is reasonable to be _much_ more concerned about > intermodal changes. Not only are, e.g., plane-> train changes > often time-consuming but, because there is rarely any schedule > coordination between carriers, it is hard to sort tickets out > remotely for some countries (but not others), and the change > often involves dragging luggage around (not merely collecting it > and redepositing it some meters away). Note that is an > objection to the transfer process (especially when exhausted > after a long trip), not to trains (which are usually great in > countries in which they actually work -- opinions about which > countries those are differ somewhat). >=20 > john >=20 > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From touch@isi.edu Thu Aug 4 08:00:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFA721F8B21 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.282, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r-D9pR3fW834 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0275121F8B1D for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.91] (pool-71-105-81-169.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.81.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p74F0EVA028281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:00:14 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:00:41 -0000 On 8/4/2011 7:37 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: ... > And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this location > before and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When can we > have another meeting in Australia? Keith, That's the logic that led us to QC over Vancouver (the latter actually having real international connections). Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans. This ought to be about picking a location that enables attendees most conveniently and economically to participate in an IETF meeting. Consider OFC. There are two meetings a year, and they *never* move. Somehow we've replaced 'distributing the pain' with 'increasing everyone's pain so a few can use the IETF as a vacation spot'. And - as noted in other posts - we seem to avoid obvious locations with very economical costs, even if we want to 'mix it up'. Joe From ole@cisco.com Thu Aug 4 08:05:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4525821F8B47 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:05:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.664 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iLvWjBiUkoM7 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B1D21F8B25 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:05:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=644; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312470363; x=1313679963; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=5ytEjTOeE4s9x9vZCa77XRgaP0RQQr5sJPtiDfaEmp0=; b=b8/aJUtjnNwYk2BiGkmTwlmwoYK7anW5DSTehDSEKkHqQRD4RVd4cDRO lZMTCQLLMXaOjXig5dSUPkaOeUUihkYERZzfoZA8RTB8YYIhDoorokiPG 0KVNRLXx8yzU3LvUEcKyxsv/X9k/edamRo41EWKozG/J6i+B5GJg8dl2p 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EALy0Ok6rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABAAw6nWHeBQAEBAQEDEgECAQIiPxALRlcGExQOqioBgxwPAZtQgz6DBASHWpUNhkFX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,317,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9673511" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2011 15:05:55 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p74F5qcv015541; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:05:54 GMT Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:05:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:05:49 -0000 You said: "Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans." Please define "your" in the above statement. The selection was made (partially) based on an IETF community survey. Your statement reminds me a bit of the arguments heard prior to IETF in China. "We don't believe in their Internet policies, we shouldn't go there!" Nice slap in the face to the several hundred IETF participants from China. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo From dhc@dcrocker.net Thu Aug 4 08:12:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3547921F8B95 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:12:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.995, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, MANGLED_SAVELE=2.3, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TvV1-sFtM3QP for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE3F21F8B94 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.156] (adsl-68-122-69-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.122.69.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p74FCInC021825 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:12:23 -0700 Message-ID: <4E3AB6CC.2030606@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:12:12 -0700 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 81attendees@ietf.org References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:12:16 -0000 Disclaimer: I have not noticed a groundswell (or, even, /any/) support from others about the concerns I've raised with venues in secondary cities. That appears to make this thread entirely academic. I'm pursuing it because of the degree of mythology about hubs-vs-secondaries and about the risks of new venues.) On 8/3/2011 8:49 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least 2-3 >> hours to the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in-airport >> transfer. > > I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the last time I was > given a layover anywhere close to that long. Mine are typically anywhere > from 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no delays or missed connections. Sometimes I > actually wish they were longer. Sorry I wasn't clear. I am citing the aggregate cost, not just the time on the ground. Over the years, my sense of of the incremental flight cost, in having to land and take off for a connection, is that it seems to add about an hour. Then there is the time on the ground. Also, the less planned time on the ground, the less robustness against delays in the first leg of the flight. Planning only for best-case scenarios is typically not terribly good project management. However, given the suggestion on another thread that we shouldn't worry about dropped packets, perhaps the IETF's new mission is only to consider best-case scenarios... (Special additional circumstance: a transition that includes Immigration/Customs, such as QC -> ORD -> home, needs quite a bit of additional time. United allocated 1.5 hours and it wasn't enough.) >> On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs 4-8 >> hours round-trip, often also costing more money. > > Conversely, a flight to a hub rather than through one is itself often more > expensive. often? I don't think so. Orbitz shows a flight from SFO to Quebec City, one month from now, costing US$550 and having no non-stops (of course.) From SFO to Toronto is $514 with a non-stop. (To Montreal, there is a non-stop, at a massive premium. A 1-stop costs $524.) That's not a huge difference, of course. My recollection for Hiroshima vs. Tokyo was that the difference was around US$300. Hubs have more servicing airlines which means more competition. There's a theory that competition among providers is better for the consumer. But it's only a theory. >> I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated cost. > > When I weigh the potential costs of a layover against the idea of only ever > going to a handful of major transit cities, I'll take the former. That's a tourism argument. I recently heard someone comment that we officially do not count tourism in our planning model, but when there is a choice, it is always a strong (dominant?) factor. My point was not that new cities aren't interesting, but that constantly going to new cities carries quite a bit of risk and cost and that going to secondary cities costs more time and money. Not just transit time or airline dollars, but site visits to inspect new locations, site planning for wifi, and then all the fun of discovering unknowns, such as the secondary hotel in Maastricht only allowing Internet through port 80... All of that required, additional research and planning increases the meeting fee, as well as increasing the likelihood of a serious, unanticipated problem. Over the recent three-year period, we seemed to experience a significant problem at least one site per year. These were unanticipated problems inherent to the place. That's a 1/3 rate of significant problems. > The entire experience > would begin to get dull; to me, then, the layover risk you've described is > ultimately worth it. As I said, we tailor our planning for experienced, frequent travelers. On 8/3/2011 11:26 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > * Limiting ourselves to "hubs" will further limit our ability to find > suitable meeting venues, That's why we are moving to lining up sites earlier. (Roughly 15 years ago, we were told that we should plan international sites roughly 3 years ahead, specifically to ensure choice.) > * While it may be easy to define a hub on paper, reality tends to make > things a lot more complicated. A fair number of our attendees are > "locked in" with certain air carriers and are thus forced to travel You are suggesting this as a rationale for requiring /everyone/ to make plane changes? > * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive > locations, You are suggesting that Quebec was inexpensive? d/ ps. There was a question about the definition of a hub. A simple one is multiple carriers with non-stop flights to another content, although I seem to recall a stricter one requiring multiple carriers with non-stop flights to /two/ continents. I suspect the latter is more useful. pps. Just in case the disclaimer, at the start of the message, has been forgotten after wading the fog of the message content, I'll repeat that I'm not seeing any base of support for my concerns but /am/ seeing strong support for secondary cities. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From touch@isi.edu Thu Aug 4 08:21:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054DB21F8B1D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:21:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.38 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.38 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.219, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CKe+SaBhnNXo for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A2321F8AED for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.91] (pool-71-105-81-169.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.81.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p74FKj06002252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:20:45 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Jacobsen References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:21:42 -0000 On 8/4/2011 8:05 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > You said: > > "Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans." > > Please define "your" in the above statement. The selection was made > (partially) based on an IETF community survey. Any response that indicates a preference based on vacation plans is from someone in the "YOUR" bin. "US" are the rest of us who come to get work done, who appreciate a reasonable threshold of services, but who don't vote based on side-trips, canoeing, biking, soccer, etc. > Your statement reminds me a bit of the arguments heard prior to IETF > in China. "We don't believe in their Internet policies, we shouldn't > go there!" Nice slap in the face to the several hundred IETF > participants from China. Hmmm. And "we don't like US immigration policies, we shouldn't go there" (or should go to Canada in preference) hasn't been a multi-year slap on several hundred IETF participants from the US? There are many factors that determine whether people attend. IMO, it's reasonable to consider issues that affect those who earnestly want to come to do work - including visa issues, legal constraints on attendees (as with the first attempt at China). But there's little we can or should do about issues of personal preference (not liking China's Internet policies, not liking many countries fingerprinting, etc.). Issues of pure personal preference - e.g., vacations, local entertainment, etc. - have no business (literally) in affecting the site selection of a business meeting. Joe From cvillamizar@infinera.com Thu Aug 4 08:22:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F67521F8ABE for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.896, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, MANGLED_SAVELE=2.3, PLING_QUERY=1.39] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJQv1Uz701n2 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sv-casht-prod1.infinera.com (sv-casht-prod1.infinera.com [8.4.225.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194AB21F8ABD for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com ([fe80::dc68:4e20:6002:a8f9]) by sv-casht-prod1.infinera.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0289.001; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:23:11 -0700 From: Curtis Villamizar To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! Thread-Index: AQHMUrjyljb0CrZxKESXabFcaCZYq5UMzT8A Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:23:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <4E3AB6CC.2030606@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <4E3AB6CC.2030606@dcrocker.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.100.99.21] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:22:59 -0000 Dave, Comments from me about sorry state of trains in US + Cananda > /dev/null. It was intended as a comment on the trains and airlines, not choice of venu= e. I support continuing to seek venues in secondary cities. I happen to like = Maastricht, Prague, and Quebec City. Hotel wired and wireless will probably be problematic for years. A decade = ago Internet access in the hotels barely existed unless IETF installed it f= or the hotel. I can remember hearing reports of running cat5 cable up elev= ator shafts in preparation for IETF Chicago in the 1990s, one of the first = IETF to have any wireless at all in the rooms. I prefer to look at the pro= gress, not the problems. Things look very good from that perspective. Wireless at the venue was flawless as far as I could tell. This is real pr= ogress particularly from Anaheim for example (not intending to open an old = wound, so follow up on Anaheim to /dev/null please). Thanks to the volunte= ers that set this up. Curtis > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 8:12 AM > To: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! >=20 > Disclaimer: >=20 > I have not noticed a groundswell (or, even, /any/) support from > others > about the concerns I've raised with venues in secondary cities. That > appears to > make this thread entirely academic. I'm pursuing it because of the > degree of > mythology about hubs-vs-secondaries and about the risks of new venues.) >=20 >=20 > On 8/3/2011 8:49 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > >> plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least > 2-3 > >> hours to the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in- > airport > >> transfer. > > > > I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the last time > I was > > given a layover anywhere close to that long. Mine are typically > anywhere > > from 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no delays or missed connections. > Sometimes I > > actually wish they were longer. >=20 > Sorry I wasn't clear. >=20 > I am citing the aggregate cost, not just the time on the ground. Over > the > years, my sense of of the incremental flight cost, in having to land > and take > off for a connection, is that it seems to add about an hour. Then > there is the > time on the ground. >=20 > Also, the less planned time on the ground, the less robustness against > delays in > the first leg of the flight. Planning only for best-case scenarios is > typically > not terribly good project management. However, given the suggestion on > another > thread that we shouldn't worry about dropped packets, perhaps the > IETF's new > mission is only to consider best-case scenarios... >=20 > (Special additional circumstance: a transition that includes > Immigration/Customs, such as QC -> ORD -> home, needs quite a bit of > additional > time. United allocated 1.5 hours and it wasn't enough.) >=20 >=20 > >> On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs > 4-8 > >> hours round-trip, often also costing more money. > > > > Conversely, a flight to a hub rather than through one is itself often > more > > expensive. >=20 > often? I don't think so. >=20 > Orbitz shows a flight from SFO to Quebec City, one month from now, > costing > US$550 and having no non-stops (of course.) From SFO to Toronto is > $514 with a > non-stop. (To Montreal, there is a non-stop, at a massive premium. A > 1-stop > costs $524.) >=20 > That's not a huge difference, of course. My recollection for Hiroshima > vs. > Tokyo was that the difference was around US$300. >=20 > Hubs have more servicing airlines which means more competition. There's > a theory > that competition among providers is better for the consumer. But it's > only a > theory. >=20 >=20 > >> I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated > cost. > > > > When I weigh the potential costs of a layover against the idea of > only ever > > going to a handful of major transit cities, I'll take the former. >=20 > That's a tourism argument. I recently heard someone comment that we > officially > do not count tourism in our planning model, but when there is a choice, > it is > always a strong (dominant?) factor. >=20 > My point was not that new cities aren't interesting, but that > constantly going > to new cities carries quite a bit of risk and cost and that going to > secondary > cities costs more time and money. Not just transit time or airline > dollars, but > site visits to inspect new locations, site planning for wifi, and then > all the > fun of discovering unknowns, such as the secondary hotel in Maastricht > only > allowing Internet through port 80... All of that required, additional > research > and planning increases the meeting fee, as well as increasing the > likelihood of > a serious, unanticipated problem. >=20 > Over the recent three-year period, we seemed to experience a > significant problem > at least one site per year. These were unanticipated problems inherent > to the > place. That's a 1/3 rate of significant problems. >=20 >=20 > > The entire experience > > would begin to get dull; to me, then, the layover risk you've > described is > > ultimately worth it. >=20 > As I said, we tailor our planning for experienced, frequent travelers. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/3/2011 11:26 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > * Limiting ourselves to "hubs" will further limit our ability to > find > > suitable meeting venues, >=20 > That's why we are moving to lining up sites earlier. (Roughly 15 years > ago, we > were told that we should plan international sites roughly 3 years > ahead, > specifically to ensure choice.) >=20 >=20 > > * While it may be easy to define a hub on paper, reality tends to > make > > things a lot more complicated. A fair number of our attendees are > > "locked in" with certain air carriers and are thus forced to > travel >=20 > You are suggesting this as a rationale for requiring /everyone/ to make > plane > changes? >=20 >=20 > > * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive > > locations, >=20 > You are suggesting that Quebec was inexpensive? >=20 >=20 > d/ >=20 > ps. There was a question about the definition of a hub. A simple one > is > multiple carriers with non-stop flights to another content, although I > seem to > recall a stricter one requiring multiple carriers with non-stop flights > to /two/ > continents. I suspect the latter is more useful. >=20 > pps. Just in case the disclaimer, at the start of the message, has > been > forgotten after wading the fog of the message content, I'll repeat that > I'm not > seeing any base of support for my concerns but /am/ seeing strong > support for > secondary cities. >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From ole@cisco.com Thu Aug 4 08:25:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D6C21F8AC3 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:25:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N0M5Ai9cGubP for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581C921F8ABE for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:25:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=2170; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312471573; x=1313681173; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=o0lawGD8LIpSvvX/dh6QRA11hVVtQgT6eHvQwy5oCbk=; b=PiMQWWikkd6PXioDCLzVpeDWWeNbi8JF5QWKzro8Oo13ViupWAqCvE0P O08mLTfDJkXg/5sfDQpT3U5z9VtgMwoUhIVno2H7FLh9o+SV9XuD6Qw6a 6+7lcEprGXpAoXJc0Gm7p5fCEYAe49zlgmnnE4DICqhvamEpoh6Z0jDxN I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EAFi5Ok6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABAAw6nWHeBQAEBAQECARIBAgECIiwPBBALGC5XBhMUDodKolgBgxwPAZtPgz6DBASHWpUNhkFX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,317,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9679363" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2011 15:26:12 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p74FQC2m032307; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:26:12 GMT Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:26:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:25:59 -0000 So there is obviously no point in doing surveys since Joe Touch knows exactly why people might prefer one location over another. Sheesh. For the record, I do not believe we asked any questions about "tourism" in the survey, but you know best, Joe! Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 8/4/2011 8:05 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > > > You said: > > > > "Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans." > > > > Please define "your" in the above statement. The selection was made > > (partially) based on an IETF community survey. > > Any response that indicates a preference based on vacation plans is from > someone in the "YOUR" bin. > > "US" are the rest of us who come to get work done, who appreciate a reasonable > threshold of services, but who don't vote based on side-trips, canoeing, > biking, soccer, etc. > > > Your statement reminds me a bit of the arguments heard prior to IETF > > in China. "We don't believe in their Internet policies, we shouldn't > > go there!" Nice slap in the face to the several hundred IETF > > participants from China. > > Hmmm. And "we don't like US immigration policies, we shouldn't go there" (or > should go to Canada in preference) hasn't been a multi-year slap on several > hundred IETF participants from the US? > > There are many factors that determine whether people attend. IMO, it's > reasonable to consider issues that affect those who earnestly want to come to > do work - including visa issues, legal constraints on attendees (as with the > first attempt at China). But there's little we can or should do about issues > of personal preference (not liking China's Internet policies, not liking many > countries fingerprinting, etc.). > > Issues of pure personal preference - e.g., vacations, local entertainment, > etc. - have no business (literally) in affecting the site selection of a > business meeting. > > Joe > From cvillamizar@infinera.com Thu Aug 4 08:30:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A7B21F87FA for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.461, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8GEx9ar7YxyB for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-CASHT-PROD3.infinera.com (sv-casht-prod3.infinera.com [8.4.225.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7330B21F8880 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com ([fe80::dc68:4e20:6002:a8f9]) by SV-CASHT-PROD3.infinera.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0289.001; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:30:39 -0700 From: Curtis Villamizar To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) Thread-Index: AQHMUqnnZK1NPPbwhUet+Pb+QBESrZUMz8cA Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:30:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> <4E3A9D97.1040509@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <4E3A9D97.1040509@dcrocker.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.100.99.21] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:30:25 -0000 Dave, I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point. QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people paying a lo= t more than others for such things as VPN services. The rest get usually e= xtremely good "best effort" service as has been the case for most providers= who have survived over the last decade or two (survived in some form or an= other, generous buyouts in the mid to late 1990s not withstanding). There can be improvement. Good to hear that there is interest again. The = bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area activity = is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things better in the = host, CPE, and access/edge devices. Curtis > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM > To: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > > qos is about whose/which packets to drop. i am not paid to drop > > packets, i am paid to deliver them. >=20 >=20 > Excellent. >=20 > Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely. The knee of > the curve > is a waste of our efforts. >=20 > Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to > downsides. >=20 > Armies would never give thought to retreat. Armies are there to > advance, not > retreat. >=20 > Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers > getting > injured. Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt. >=20 > The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing. >=20 > Investors would never have to worry about the market going down. >=20 > Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the > need to > worry about unpleasant realities? >=20 > d/ >=20 > -- >=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees From carlos@lacnic.net Thu Aug 4 08:50:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520A321F8B20 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hlfxE4dfBDHs for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1FC21F8B25 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 85-7-200.lacnic.net.uy (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:6233:4bff:fe20:8385]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DCB308436 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0300 (UYT) Message-ID: <4E3ABFBF.5040101@lacnic.net> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:50:23 -0300 From: "Carlos M. Martinez" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> <4E3A9D97.1040509@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040408040600070704060206" X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: carlos@lacnic.net Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:50:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040408040600070704060206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized by network operators and used only for extracting a premium for things that should work anyway. Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even there Delta Hotels showed us that it can also happen), but it's definitely the case in other regions where BW costs are still quite high. Pretending that congestion does not exist will not make it disappear, and arguing that the cure for congestion is overprovisioning creates a situation where networks will always experience periods of poor perceived quality, as congestion and provisioning happen on different time scales. Granted there can be "good" players who always invest ahead of the curve, but, let's be honest here, they are the minority. Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse. I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue. Warm regards, Carlos On 8/4/11 12:30 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote: > Dave, > > I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point. > > QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people paying a lot more than others for such things as VPN services. The rest get usually extremely good "best effort" service as has been the case for most providers who have survived over the last decade or two (survived in some form or another, generous buyouts in the mid to late 1990s not withstanding). > > There can be improvement. Good to hear that there is interest again. The bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area activity is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things better in the host, CPE, and access/edge devices. > > Curtis > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- >> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM >> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) >> >> >> >> On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >>> qos is about whose/which packets to drop. i am not paid to drop >>> packets, i am paid to deliver them. >> >> Excellent. >> >> Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely. The knee of >> the curve >> is a waste of our efforts. >> >> Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to >> downsides. >> >> Armies would never give thought to retreat. Armies are there to >> advance, not >> retreat. >> >> Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers >> getting >> injured. Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt. >> >> The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing. >> >> Investors would never have to worry about the market going down. >> >> Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the >> need to >> worry about unpleasant realities? >> >> d/ >> >> -- >> >> Dave Crocker >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> bbiw.net >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees -- Carlos M. Martinez LACNIC I+D PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2 Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419 --------------040408040600070704060206 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="carlos.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="carlos.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Carlos Martinez Cagnazzo n:Martinez Cagnazzo;Carlos email;internet:carlos@lacnic.net tel;work:+598-2604-2222 tel;cell:+598-9-9245009 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --------------040408040600070704060206-- From mellon@fugue.com Thu Aug 4 08:59:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A0F21F8B52 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:59:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.356, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MiHvDa58gwZe for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (173-162-214-217-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.162.214.217]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE7A21F8B0C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kali.fugue.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1486:226:bbff:fe0c:e5bf]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7719A23802EA; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_64A64627-6A7F-41C0-B65E-AF30927CE273" From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:59:52 -0400 Message-Id: <09BC4E31-AAFC-4443-9F85-B4E1B69F8A6D@fugue.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:59:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_64A64627-6A7F-41C0-B65E-AF30927CE273 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Aug 4, 2011, at 11:20 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > "US" are the rest of us who come to get work done, who appreciate a = reasonable threshold of services, but who don't vote based on = side-trips, canoeing, biking, soccer, etc. For the record, I didn't get to go on my bike trip, and it's not why I = think QC was a good venue. I much prefer biking at home=97there's more = shade, and less traffic. I brought my bike because I wanted to get = exercise while I was at IETF, not because I was looking forward to a = special treat. I think QC was a good venue because I could get good food, the = conference center was convenient, and it was easy for me to get to. I = tend to agree that it would be better if IETF chose a few places and = stuck with them, but I'd rather they were places with easy access to = restaurants, and of course there's the issue of fairness, which I think = is the real driver for what you are perceiving as the "tourist" = imperative. How we wound up back in Disney world is, however, a complete mystery to = me, although I'm sure there's a logical explanation. --Apple-Mail=_64A64627-6A7F-41C0-B65E-AF30927CE273 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 "US" are the = rest of us who come to get work done, who appreciate a reasonable = threshold of services, but who don't vote based on side-trips, canoeing, = biking, soccer, etc.

For the = record, I didn't get to go on my bike trip, and it's not why I think QC = was a good venue.   I much prefer biking at home=97there's more = shade, and less traffic.   I brought my bike because I wanted to = get exercise while I was at IETF, not because I was looking forward to a = special treat.

I think QC was a good venue = because I could get good food, the conference center was convenient, and = it was easy for me to get to. I tend to agree that it would be better if = IETF chose a few places and stuck with them, but I'd rather they were = places with easy access to restaurants, and of course there's the issue = of fairness, which I think is the real driver for what you are = perceiving as the "tourist" imperative.

How we = wound up back in Disney world is, however, a complete mystery to me, = although I'm sure there's a logical = explanation.

= --Apple-Mail=_64A64627-6A7F-41C0-B65E-AF30927CE273-- From cvillamizar@infinera.com Thu Aug 4 09:01:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2DE21F8BCB for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.410, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5mmc0GOPqj4 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-CASHT-PROD3.infinera.com (sv-casht-prod3.infinera.com [8.4.225.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B69021F8B6C for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com ([fe80::dc68:4e20:6002:a8f9]) by SV-CASHT-PROD3.infinera.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0289.001; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:02:05 -0700 From: Curtis Villamizar To: "Carlos M. Martinez" , "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) Thread-Index: AQHMUr5JeTHl0FIKyEy7b5KXYwG5qJUM2IVA Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:02:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> <4E3A9D97.1040509@dcrocker.net> <4E3ABFBF.5040101@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: <4E3ABFBF.5040101@lacnic.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.100.99.21] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:01:51 -0000 Even in the most overprovisioned network, congestion occurs with each natur= al disaster. The last extremely widespread and dire reminder in the US hap= pened in 2005 as a result of Hurricane Katrina. However smaller incidents = where capacity is temporarily lost (for hours or days) occur almost continu= ously. There is an issue with voluntarily marking traffic as real time and cheatin= g that I'd rather not go into on *this* list. [btw - though interesting, we're drifting off on a tangent.] Curtis > -----Original Message----- > From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos M. Martinez > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 8:50 AM > To: 81attendees@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) >=20 > I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened > to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat > bastardized by network operators and used only for extracting a premium > for things that should work anyway. >=20 > Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages > wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible > position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even > there Delta Hotels showed us that it can also happen), but it's > definitely the case in other regions where BW costs are still quite > high. >=20 > Pretending that congestion does not exist will not make it disappear, > and arguing that the cure for congestion is overprovisioning creates a > situation where networks will always experience periods of poor > perceived quality, as congestion and provisioning happen on different > time scales. >=20 > Granted there can be "good" players who always invest ahead of the > curve, but, let's be honest here, they are the minority. >=20 > Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as > in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network > should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then > it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse. >=20 > I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there > is with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of > PCP. It is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer- > provider interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could > do something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a > port is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS > queue. >=20 > Warm regards, >=20 > Carlos >=20 > On 8/4/11 12:30 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote: > > Dave, > > > > I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point. > > > > QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people > paying a lot more than others for such things as VPN services. The > rest get usually extremely good "best effort" service as has been the > case for most providers who have survived over the last decade or two > (survived in some form or another, generous buyouts in the mid to late > 1990s not withstanding). > > > > There can be improvement. Good to hear that there is interest again. > The bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area > activity is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things > better in the host, CPE, and access/edge devices. > > > > Curtis > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- > >> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER > >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM > >> To: 81attendees@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and > >> bufferbloat) > >> > >> > >> > >> On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > >>> qos is about whose/which packets to drop. i am not paid to drop > >>> packets, i am paid to deliver them. > >> > >> Excellent. > >> > >> Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely. The knee of > >> the curve is a waste of our efforts. > >> > >> Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to > >> downsides. > >> > >> Armies would never give thought to retreat. Armies are there to > >> advance, not retreat. > >> > >> Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers > >> getting injured. Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting > >> hurt. > >> > >> The medical profession would never have to worry about patients > dieing. > >> > >> Investors would never have to worry about the market going down. > >> > >> Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the > >> need to worry about unpleasant realities? > >> > >> d/ > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Dave Crocker > >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >> bbiw.net > >> _______________________________________________ > >> 81attendees mailing list > >> 81attendees@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > _______________________________________________ > > 81attendees mailing list > > 81attendees@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >=20 > -- > Carlos M. Martinez > LACNIC I+D > PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2 > Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419 From ole@cisco.com Thu Aug 4 09:02:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F48021F8BE8 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:02:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.661 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IcKZdN-D7arr for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA50821F8BA2 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:01:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=ole@cisco.com; l=241; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1312473735; x=1313683335; h=date:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=SQI+O44i57Lso2Do05+Ciklow11+mGffD2EfEa/Vdog=; b=e4+DkKr9Y1yvuxLwsIVRcMUWQJnO3rgxu9U2VkZ//sGPcH/k0FeA6qjg xQGxa5FmOAQBlA+wVPieaniRmRUHjsl181iWIcH47MgeTY0XejzEKp3TU hlid9qVOF+aFbb5ueO8hryM6cATbChcGxUx+NyacXJ8LV3/1q3trDRfQo 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAPXBOk6rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABDp2h3gUABAQEBAgESAQIBJD8QCw44VwY1h0qiagGDHA8Bm0yGQgSHWpwl X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,317,1309737600"; d="scan'208";a="9697453" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2011 16:02:14 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com (sjc-vpn7-506.cisco.com [10.21.145.250]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p74G2D3u003275; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:02:13 GMT Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:02:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Ole Jacobsen To: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <09BC4E31-AAFC-4443-9F85-B4E1B69F8A6D@fugue.com> Message-ID: References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> <09BC4E31-AAFC-4443-9F85-B4E1B69F8A6D@fugue.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (OSX 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:02:00 -0000 On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Ted Lemon wrote: > > How we wound up back in Disney world is, however, a complete mystery > to me, although I'm sure there's a logical explanation. > Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same venue. Ole > From mellon@fugue.com Thu Aug 4 09:03:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3122721F8BF6 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.324 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.324 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.305, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BDDDDJ6ZT17w for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (173-162-214-217-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.162.214.217]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2AF121F8BF4 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kali.fugue.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1486:226:bbff:fe0c:e5bf]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA25F23802EA; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_725B4BA3-08CC-4F2B-A761-728C7E6DA035" From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:03:45 -0400 Message-Id: <493E32DB-2A28-4189-9CD0-116F54B2C297@fugue.com> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <1833618D9DF8CFFC27A79918@PST.JCK.COM> <4E3AB3FE.9060401@isi.edu> <4E3AB8CD.3060906@isi.edu> <09BC4E31-AAFC-4443-9F85-B4E1B69F8A6D@fugue.com> To: Ole Jacobsen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:03:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_725B4BA3-08CC-4F2B-A761-728C7E6DA035 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same venue. Oy. Well, I guess I can tough it out. Maybe there will be manatees=85 :) --Apple-Mail=_725B4BA3-08CC-4F2B-A761-728C7E6DA035 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Yes, = back-to-back with IEEE, same = venue.

Oy.   Well, I guess I = can tough it out.   Maybe there will be = manatees=85

:)

= --Apple-Mail=_725B4BA3-08CC-4F2B-A761-728C7E6DA035-- From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com Thu Aug 4 09:04:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF18921F8B9D for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:04:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.706, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_INXPNS=2.3, MANGLED_SAVELE=2.3, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4ITYLd9KyNK for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F53821F8B94 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws12 with SMTP id 12so750566vws.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:04:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=nkS7dMTl3MLt+/mh7bAo3rqgjt01rzovdb3k7TZqIjA=; b=sNLOtLl+UruBlgq5cwQHe05ZkSXRkmJ1pSydNs7Nc+p7JIOSFyh8CiZTUb3ATAvjv6 R1WktdztvjxDn7OpYmVtbJNJZ91nz6+g+stfVYq344kvrFoi+Z7HIN/c4ElK1xyu0rtI 8i+DQ5FqTHso2Y8wfl2cp/SHyL/hZYGnSxgWs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.64.201 with SMTP id q9mr1056437vds.116.1312473867847; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.167.34 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E3AB6CC.2030606@dcrocker.net> References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com> <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net> <4E3AB6CC.2030606@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:04:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3078106cab87c504a9b02267 Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job! X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:04:15 -0000 --20cf3078106cab87c504a9b02267 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Personally, I prefer not to have meetings in secondary cities. I was in the 30% that voted for Vancouver over Quebec City for this meeting as I knew what a hassle it would be to get to Quebec based on a previous trip. However, I'm not fussing because my travel there went very well - I flew direct to Montreal and rented a car and drove to Quebec (a 3 hour drive). While I think we should give preference to cities with large international airports, if a secondary city is reachable in one additional hop from a large airport via plane, train, bus, or automobile then it shouldn't necessarily not be considered *if* the other criteria are met. The other criteria in my mind are a variety of hotels near the venue, accessiblity to food for everyone (i.e., including those of us with restricted diets) near the venue and adequate meeting space. The first two usually require that the venue be located near a city center. I think since QC met all the other criteria, the additional hop to get there wasn't unreasonable. On the other hand, Maastricht did not meet any of the criteria and it was more than two hops for the majority of attendees - it was 5 hops (2 air and 3 train) for me and I live 15 minutes from one of the largest international airports in the U.S. I think that's why there was significantly more concerns raised about secondary cities last year. In hindsight, of course, I should have just rented a car in Brussels and drove to Maastricht, which is why I made that choice for Quebec city (based on a bad experience flying out of Quebec city when I was there previously). That all said, I am very much of the mindset that we should find 6 locations that work well and just rotate amongst those for x years and then re-evaluate. I'd be perfectly happy if we met in Minneapolis once every two years. And, I think the other 5 could easily be determined based on past meetings. Of course, I am biased in that I don't have time to sight see during the meeting week, so I don't consider the tourism appeal of a city as an important factor in choosing a venue for a business meeting. Mary. On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote: > Disclaimer: > > I have not noticed a groundswell (or, even, /any/) support from others > about the concerns I've raised with venues in secondary cities. That > appears to make this thread entirely academic. I'm pursuing it because of > the degree of mythology about hubs-vs-secondaries and about the risks of new > venues.) > > > On 8/3/2011 8:49 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > >> plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least 2-3 >>> hours to the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in-airport >>> transfer. >>> >> >> I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the last time I was >> given a layover anywhere close to that long. Mine are typically anywhere >> from 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no delays or missed connections. >> Sometimes I >> actually wish they were longer. >> > > Sorry I wasn't clear. > > I am citing the aggregate cost, not just the time on the ground. Over the > years, my sense of of the incremental flight cost, in having to land and > take off for a connection, is that it seems to add about an hour. Then > there is the time on the ground. > > Also, the less planned time on the ground, the less robustness against > delays in the first leg of the flight. Planning only for best-case > scenarios is typically not terribly good project management. However, given > the suggestion on another thread that we shouldn't worry about dropped > packets, perhaps the IETF's new mission is only to consider best-case > scenarios... > > (Special additional circumstance: a transition that includes > Immigration/Customs, such as QC -> ORD -> home, needs quite a bit of > additional time. United allocated 1.5 hours and it wasn't enough.) > > > On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs 4-8 >>> hours round-trip, often also costing more money. >>> >> >> Conversely, a flight to a hub rather than through one is itself often more >> expensive. >> > > often? I don't think so. > > Orbitz shows a flight from SFO to Quebec City, one month from now, costing > US$550 and having no non-stops (of course.) From SFO to Toronto is $514 > with a non-stop. (To Montreal, there is a non-stop, at a massive premium. > A 1-stop costs $524.) > > That's not a huge difference, of course. My recollection for Hiroshima vs. > Tokyo was that the difference was around US$300. > > Hubs have more servicing airlines which means more competition. There's a > theory that competition among providers is better for the consumer. But > it's only a theory. > > > I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated cost. >>> >> >> When I weigh the potential costs of a layover against the idea of only >> ever >> going to a handful of major transit cities, I'll take the former. >> > > That's a tourism argument. I recently heard someone comment that we > officially do not count tourism in our planning model, but when there is a > choice, it is always a strong (dominant?) factor. > > My point was not that new cities aren't interesting, but that constantly > going to new cities carries quite a bit of risk and cost and that going to > secondary cities costs more time and money. Not just transit time or > airline dollars, but site visits to inspect new locations, site planning for > wifi, and then all the fun of discovering unknowns, such as the secondary > hotel in Maastricht only allowing Internet through port 80... All of that > required, additional research and planning increases the meeting fee, as > well as increasing the likelihood of a serious, unanticipated problem. > > Over the recent three-year period, we seemed to experience a significant > problem at least one site per year. These were unanticipated problems > inherent to the place. That's a 1/3 rate of significant problems. > > > The entire experience >> would begin to get dull; to me, then, the layover risk you've described is >> ultimately worth it. >> > > As I said, we tailor our planning for experienced, frequent travelers. > > > > On 8/3/2011 11:26 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > * Limiting ourselves to "hubs" will further limit our ability to find > > suitable meeting venues, > > That's why we are moving to lining up sites earlier. (Roughly 15 years > ago, we were told that we should plan international sites roughly 3 years > ahead, specifically to ensure choice.) > > > > * While it may be easy to define a hub on paper, reality tends to make > > things a lot more complicated. A fair number of our attendees are > > "locked in" with certain air carriers and are thus forced to travel > > You are suggesting this as a rationale for requiring /everyone/ to make > plane changes? > > > > * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive > > locations, > > You are suggesting that Quebec was inexpensive? > > > d/ > > ps. There was a question about the definition of a hub. A simple one is > multiple carriers with non-stop flights to another content, although I seem > to recall a stricter one requiring multiple carriers with non-stop flights > to /two/ continents. I suspect the latter is more useful. > > pps. Just in case the disclaimer, at the start of the message, has been > forgotten after wading the fog of the message content, I'll repeat that I'm > not seeing any base of support for my concerns but /am/ seeing strong > support for secondary cities. > > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > ______________________________**_________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/81attendees > --20cf3078106cab87c504a9b02267 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personally, I prefer not to have meetings in secondary cities.=A0=A0I was i= n the 30% that voted for Vancouver over Quebec City for this meeting as I k= new what a hassle it would be to get to Quebec based on a previous trip.=A0= =A0However, I'm not fussing because my travel there went very well - I = flew direct to Montreal and rented a car and drove to Quebec (a 3 hour driv= e). =A0 While I think we should give preference to cities with large intern= ational airports, if a secondary city is reachable in one additional hop fr= om a large airport via plane, train, bus, or automobile then it shouldn'= ;t necessarily not be considered *if* the other criteria are met. =A0The ot= her criteria in my mind are a variety of hotels near the venue, accessiblit= y to food for everyone (i.e., including those of us with restricted diets) = near the venue and adequate meeting space. =A0The first two usually require= that the venue be located near a city center. =A0 I think since QC met all= the other criteria, the additional hop to get there wasn't unreasonabl= e. =A0On the other hand, Maastricht did not meet any of the criteria and it= was more than two hops for the majority of attendees - it was 5 hops (2 ai= r and 3 train) for me and I live 15 minutes from one of the largest interna= tional airports in the U.S. =A0 I think that's why there was significan= tly more concerns raised about secondary cities last year. =A0In hindsight,= of course, I should have just rented a car in Brussels and drove to Maastr= icht, which is why I made that choice for Quebec city (based on a bad exper= ience flying out of Quebec city when I was there previously). =A0=A0

That all said, I am very much of the mindset that we should = find 6 locations that work well and just rotate amongst those for x years a= nd then re-evaluate. =A0I'd be perfectly happy if we met in Minneapolis= once every two years. =A0And, I think the other 5 could easily be determin= ed based on past meetings. =A0Of course, I am biased in that I don't ha= ve time to sight see during the meeting week, so I don't consider the t= ourism appeal of a city as an important factor in choosing a venue for a bu= siness meeting. =A0

Mary.=A0

On Thu, Aug = 4, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Dave CROCKER <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
Disclaimer:

=A0 =A0 I have not noticed a groundswell (or, even, /any/) support from ot= hers about the concerns I've raised with venues in secondary cities. = =A0That appears to make this thread entirely academic. =A0I'm pursuing = it because of the degree of mythology about hubs-vs-secondaries and about t= he risks of new venues.)


On 8/3/2011 8:49 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
plus transit time /in/ ORD. Changing planes typically adds at least 2-3
hours to the total trip time, counting landing and takeoff and in-airport transfer.

I do about six conferences a year and I can't remember the last time I = was
given a layover anywhere close to that long. =A0Mine are typically anywhere=
from 50 to 90 minutes, assuming no delays or missed connections. =A0Sometim= es I
actually wish they were longer.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

I am citing the aggregate cost, not just the time on the ground. =A0Over th= e years, my sense of of the incremental flight cost, in having to land and = take off for a connection, is that it seems to add about an hour. =A0Then t= here is the time on the ground.

Also, the less planned time on the ground, the less robustness against dela= ys in the first leg of the flight. =A0Planning only for best-case scenarios= is typically not terribly good project management. =A0However, given the s= uggestion on another thread that we shouldn't worry about dropped packe= ts, perhaps the IETF's new mission is only to consider best-case scenar= ios...

(Special additional circumstance: =A0a transition that includes Immigration= /Customs, such as QC -> ORD -> home, needs quite a bit of additional = time. =A0United allocated 1.5 hours and it wasn't enough.)


On a good trip, the extra hop to a non-hub location typically costs 4-8
hours round-trip, often also costing more money.

Conversely, a flight to a hub rather than through one is itself often more<= br> expensive.

often? =A0I don't think so.

Orbitz shows a flight from SFO to Quebec City, one month from now, costing = US$550 and having no non-stops (of course.) =A0From SFO to Toronto is $514 = with a non-stop. =A0(To Montreal, there is a non-stop, at a massive premium= . =A0A 1-stop costs $524.)

That's not a huge difference, of course. =A0My recollection for Hiroshi= ma vs. Tokyo was that the difference was around US$300.

Hubs have more servicing airlines which means more competition. There's= a theory that competition among providers is better for the consumer. =A0B= ut it's only a theory.


I have never understood why we are so cavalier about the aggregated cost.

When I weigh the potential costs of a layover against the idea of only ever=
going to a handful of major transit cities, I'll take the former.

That's a tourism argument. =A0I recently heard someone comment that we = officially do not count tourism in our planning model, but when there is a = choice, it is always a strong (dominant?) factor.

My point was not that new cities aren't interesting, but that constantl= y going to new cities carries quite a bit of risk and cost and that going t= o secondary cities costs more time and money. =A0Not just transit time or a= irline dollars, but site visits to inspect new locations, site planning for= wifi, and then all the fun of discovering unknowns, such as the secondary = hotel in Maastricht only allowing Internet through port 80... =A0All of tha= t required, additional research and planning increases the meeting fee, as = well as increasing the likelihood of a serious, unanticipated problem.

Over the recent three-year period, we seemed to experience a significant pr= oblem at least one site per year. =A0These were unanticipated problems inhe= rent to the place. =A0That's a 1/3 rate of significant problems.


=A0The entire experience
would begin to get dull; to me, then, the layover risk you've described= is
ultimately worth it.

As I said, we tailor our planning for experienced, frequent travelers.



On 8/3/2011 11:26 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> * Limiting ourselves to "hubs" will further limit our abilit= y to find
> =A0 =A0suitable meeting venues,

That's why we are moving to lining up sites earlier. =A0(Roughly 15 yea= rs ago, we were told that we should plan international sites roughly 3 year= s ahead, specifically to ensure choice.)


> * While it may be easy to define a hub on paper, reality tends to make=
> =A0 =A0things a lot more complicated. A fair number of our attendees a= re
> =A0 =A0"locked in" with certain air carriers and are thus fo= rced to travel

You are suggesting this as a rationale for requiring /everyone/ to make pla= ne changes?


> * Hubs (assuming we agree on the definition) tend to be in expensive > =A0 =A0locations,

You are suggesting that Quebec was inexpensive?


d/

ps. There was a question about the definition of a hub. =A0A simple one is = multiple carriers with non-stop flights to another content, although I seem= to recall a stricter one requiring multiple carriers with non-stop flights= to /two/ continents. =A0I suspect the latter is more useful.

pps. =A0Just in case the disclaimer, at the start of the message, has been = forgotten after wading the fog of the message content, I'll repeat that= I'm not seeing any base of support for my concerns but /am/ seeing str= ong support for secondary cities.


--

=A0Dave Crocker
=A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
=A0bbiw.net
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

--20cf3078106cab87c504a9b02267-- From gettysjim@gmail.com Thu Aug 4 09:05:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4519D21F8B94 for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.35 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.35 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HS0J5HYtIeyk for <81attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f172.google.com (mail-vx0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB64C21F859F for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vxi40 with SMTP id 40so1938303vxi.31 for <81attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=qGQ9p42wMojUgtj0DgYjcF5x1z3GGg1S+Uu1F6dqtGQ=; b=EmVuTLRlypJtQPXeA+aaTLGdGxStqX7nABsBrKOdHnV4K5UkzRIUm4RX83vVAyWJaR 6Gmp8GDpFCe6RKrCRAOad2erhQNDR2F+6Iz9Uj8P566lRyp+/PesFCo1n3MYdiy5w4NM 8NDT++bCYBNT0os0alDCFPR5YCcBhZ7EaeLAQ= Received: by 10.52.65.17 with SMTP id t17mr1088094vds.83.1312473938533; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.3] (c-24-218-177-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.177.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d20sm775909vcp.34.2011.08.04.09.05.35 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jim Gettys Message-ID: <4E3AC34E.3010705@freedesktop.org> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:05:34 -0400 From: Jim Gettys Organization: Bell Labs User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110627 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carlos M. Martinez" References: <4E2CC532.3090209@sunet.se> <4E2CCE72.3010500@sunet.se> <4E2E2236.2060808@sunet.se> <87EC2139-C7C2-4113-97E2-9EB9DA2406EA@juniper.net> <9D00CDB7-2C04-446E-8D53-0552BAEE22EE@juniper.net> <633EAF31-607E-4FEF-B502-5FFAD89BF01A@juniper.net> <4E371370.40804@freedesktop.org> <00E8AAF99E25FF49A1F55E9A0CD19EBCB93DF4E65B@SGSINSXCHMBSA2.sg.alcatel-lucent.com> <98F2DACCFC679BFB8A8E3592@PST.JCK.COM> <4E397AC2.1010906@dcrocker.net> <4E39A542.7040801@freedesktop.org> <4E39A709.4030001@lacnic.net> <4E39AA95.7060601@freedesktop.org> <4E3A9D97.1040509@dcrocker.net> <4E3ABFBF.5040101@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: <4E3ABFBF.5040101@lacnic.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070109060105030204060500" Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) X-BeenThere: 81attendees@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 81 Attendee List <81attendees.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:05:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070109060105030204060500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 08/04/2011 11:50 AM, Carlos M. Martinez wrote: > I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened > to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized > by network operators and used only for extracting a premium for things > that should work anyway. > > Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages > wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible > position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even > there Delta Hotels showed us that it can also happen), but it's > definitely the case in other regions where BW costs are still quite high. > > Pretending that congestion does not exist will not make it disappear, > and arguing that the cure for congestion is overprovisioning creates a > situation where networks will always experience periods of poor > perceived quality, as congestion and provisioning happen on different > time scales. I don't think that was what Randy was saying though.... I believe he was agreeing with my comment that while QOS is useful, it won't solve the bufferbloat problem. QOS just moves who suffers most, and having buffers perennially full makes them malfunction in general. It's why if I have to choose between QOS and working AQM, I'll pick working AQM all the time. Modern operating systems hardware and applications will congest any edge link; congestion in the edge (and a hotel is clearly the edge) is going to be with us forever. Handling congestion properly in this environment is now absolutely essential. Basically, over CONUS delays, a single TCP connection on WinXP won't do over 6 MBps (no TCP window scaling). Later versions of Windows rate limit to below that of a 100Mbps ethernet switch (saturating most wireless and broadband links). Everything else will saturate to gigabit or more without blinking twice. Saturation of the edge is the *normal* situation; we just didn't notice when BitTorrent saturated links using many TCP connections on XP years ago, so we lost years recognising what was happening. To solve congestion requires *timely* notification of the end points to slow down rather than tail drop off grossly bloated buffers, and right now, we only have packet loss to do that signalling. It's often/usually so bad that TCP congestion avoidance is no longer functioning. Getting ECN enabled would give us congestion signalling without necessarily having packet loss. > > Granted there can be "good" players who always invest ahead of the > curve, but, let's be honest here, they are the minority. > > Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as > in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network > should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then > it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse. > > I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is > with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It > is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider > interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do > something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port > is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue. > > Warm regards, > > Carlos > > On 8/4/11 12:30 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote: >> Dave, >> >> I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point. >> >> QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people paying a lot more than others for such things as VPN services. The rest get usually extremely good "best effort" service as has been the case for most providers who have survived over the last decade or two (survived in some form or another, generous buyouts in the mid to late 1990s not withstanding). >> >> There can be improvement. Good to hear that there is interest again. The bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area activity is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things better in the host, CPE, and access/edge devices. >> >> Curtis >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees- >>> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER >>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM >>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat) >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >>>> qos is about whose/which packets to drop. i am not paid to drop >>>> packets, i am paid to deliver them. >>> Excellent. >>> >>> Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely. The knee of >>> the curve >>> is a waste of our efforts. >>> >>> Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to >>> downsides. >>> >>> Armies would never give thought to retreat. Armies are there to >>> advance, not >>> retreat. >>> >>> Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers >>> getting >>> injured. Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt. >>> >>> The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing. >>> >>> Investors would never have to worry about the market going down. >>> >>> Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the >>> need to >>> worry about unpleasant realities? >>> >>> d/ >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dave Crocker >>> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> bbiw.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 81attendees mailing list >>> 81attendees@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees >> _______________________________________________ >> 81attendees mailing list >> 81attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees > > > _______________________________________________ > 81attendees mailing list > 81attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees --------------070109060105030204060500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 08/04/2011 11:50 AM, Carlos M. Martinez wrote: 
I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened
to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized
by network operators and used only for extracting a premium for things
that should work anyway.

Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages
wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible
position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even
there Delta Hotels showed us that it can also happen), but it's
definitely the case in other regions where BW costs are still quite high.

Pretending that congestion does not exist will not make it disappear,
and arguing that the cure for congestion is overprovisioning creates a
situation where networks will always experience periods of poor
perceived quality, as congestion and provisioning happen on different
time scales.
I don't think that was what Randy was saying though....

I believe he was agreeing with my comment that while QOS is useful, it won't solve the bufferbloat problem.  QOS just moves who suffers most, and having buffers perennially full makes them malfunction in general.  It's why if I have to choose between QOS and working AQM, I'll pick working AQM all the time.

Modern operating systems hardware and applications will congest any edge link; congestion in the edge (and a hotel is clearly the edge) is going to be with us forever.  Handling congestion properly in this environment is now absolutely essential.

Basically, over CONUS delays, a single TCP connection on WinXP won't do over 6 MBps (no TCP window scaling).
Later versions of Windows rate limit to below that of a 100Mbps ethernet switch (saturating most wireless and broadband links). Everything else will saturate to gigabit or more without blinking twice.

Saturation of the edge is the *normal* situation; we just didn't notice when BitTorrent  saturated links using many TCP connections on XP years ago, so we lost years recognising what was happening.

To solve congestion requires *timely* notification of the end points to slow down rather than tail drop off grossly bloated buffers, and right now, we only have packet loss to do that signalling.  It's often/usually so bad that TCP congestion avoidance is no longer functioning. Getting ECN enabled would give us congestion signalling without necessarily having packet loss.



Granted there can be "good" players who always invest ahead of the
curve, but, let's be honest here, they are the minority.

Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as
in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network
should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then
it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse.

I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is
with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It
is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider
interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do
something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port
is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue.

Warm regards,

Carlos

On 8/4/11 12:30 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:

Dave,

I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point.

QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people paying a lot more than others for such things as VPN services.  The rest get usually extremely good "best effort" service as has been the case for most providers who have survived over the last decade or two (survived in some form or another, generous buyouts in the mid to late 1990s not withstanding).

There can be improvement.  Good to hear that there is interest again.  The bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area activity is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things better in the host, CPE, and access/edge devices.

Curtis


-----Original Message-----
From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-
bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM
To: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat)



On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote:

qos is about whose/which packets to drop.  i am not paid to drop
packets, i am paid to deliver them.

Excellent.

Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely.  The knee of
the curve
is a waste of our efforts.

Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to
downsides.

Armies would never give thought to retreat.  Armies are there to
advance, not
retreat.

Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers
getting
injured.  Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt.

The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing.

Investors would never have to worry about the market going down.

Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the
need to
worry about unpleasant realities?

d/

--

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


    

    

  


--------------070109060105030204060500--

From jakob.heitz@ericsson.com  Thu Aug  4 09:20:56 2011
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From: Jakob Heitz 
To: Joe Touch 
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:21:23 -0400
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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Perth has real international connections: Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Aukl=
and, Kuala Lumpur. And a conference venue on the beach:
http://www.rendezvoushotels.com/media/library/pdfs/Factsheets/Rendezvous_Pe=
rth%206pg%20fact%20sheet.pdf

--
Jakob Heitz.


On Aug 4, 2011, at 8:01 AM, "Joe Touch"  wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On 8/4/2011 7:37 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
> ...
>> And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this location
>> before and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When can we
>> have another meeting in Australia?
>=20
> Keith,
>=20
> That's the logic that led us to QC over Vancouver (the latter actually=20
> having real international connections).

From touch@isi.edu  Thu Aug  4 09:31:21 2011
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On 8/4/2011 8:26 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>
> So there is obviously no point in doing surveys since Joe Touch knows
> exactly why people might prefer one location over another. Sheesh.

Surveys for preferences are part of the problem.

> For the record, I do not believe we asked any questions about
> "tourism" in the survey, but you know best, Joe!

Please read the post about the decision, and read between the lines.

Joe

From carlos@lacnic.net  Thu Aug  4 09:33:24 2011
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat)
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For the record, I wasn't trying to argue with Randy :-)))

I just wanted to state my opinion on what I believe is a real problem we
might have to work on.

On 8/4/11 1:05 PM, Jim Gettys wrote:
> On 08/04/2011 11:50 AM, Carlos M. Martinez wrote:
>> I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened
>> to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized
>> by network operators and used only for extracting a premium for things
>> that should work anyway.
>>
>> Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages
>> wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible
>> position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even
>> there Delta Hotels showed us that it can also happen), but it's
>> definitely the case in other regions where BW costs are still quite high.
>>
>> Pretending that congestion does not exist will not make it disappear,
>> and arguing that the cure for congestion is overprovisioning creates a
>> situation where networks will always experience periods of poor
>> perceived quality, as congestion and provisioning happen on different
>> time scales.
> I don't think that was what Randy was saying though....
>
> I believe he was agreeing with my comment that while QOS is useful, it
> won't solve the bufferbloat problem.  QOS just moves who suffers most,
> and having buffers perennially full makes them malfunction in
> general.  It's why if I have to choose between QOS and working AQM,
> I'll pick working AQM all the time.
>
> Modern operating systems hardware and applications will congest any
> edge link; congestion in the edge (and a hotel is clearly the edge) is
> going to be with us forever.  Handling congestion properly in this
> environment is now absolutely essential.
>
> Basically, over CONUS delays, a single TCP connection on WinXP won't
> do over 6 MBps (no TCP window scaling).
> Later versions of Windows rate limit to below that of a 100Mbps
> ethernet switch (saturating most wireless and broadband links).
> Everything else will saturate to gigabit or more without blinking twice.
>
> Saturation of the edge is the *normal* situation; we just didn't
> notice when BitTorrent  saturated links using many TCP connections on
> XP years ago, so we lost years recognising what was happening.
>
> To solve congestion requires *timely* notification of the end points
> to slow down rather than tail drop off grossly bloated buffers, and
> right now, we only have packet loss to do that signalling.  It's
> often/usually so bad that TCP congestion avoidance is no longer
> functioning. Getting ECN enabled would give us congestion signalling
> without necessarily having packet loss.
>
>
>> Granted there can be "good" players who always invest ahead of the
>> curve, but, let's be honest here, they are the minority.
>>
>> Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as
>> in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network
>> should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then
>> it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse.
>>
>> I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is
>> with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It
>> is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider
>> interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do
>> something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port
>> is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> On 8/4/11 12:30 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point.
>>>
>>> QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people paying a lot more than others for such things as VPN services.  The rest get usually extremely good "best effort" service as has been the case for most providers who have survived over the last decade or two (survived in some form or another, generous buyouts in the mid to late 1990s not withstanding).
>>>
>>> There can be improvement.  Good to hear that there is interest again.  The bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area activity is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things better in the host, CPE, and access/edge devices.
>>>
>>> Curtis
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-
>>>> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM
>>>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
>>>>> qos is about whose/which packets to drop.  i am not paid to drop
>>>>> packets, i am paid to deliver them.
>>>> Excellent.
>>>>
>>>> Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely.  The knee of
>>>> the curve
>>>> is a waste of our efforts.
>>>>
>>>> Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to
>>>> downsides.
>>>>
>>>> Armies would never give thought to retreat.  Armies are there to
>>>> advance, not
>>>> retreat.
>>>>
>>>> Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers
>>>> getting
>>>> injured.  Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt.
>>>>
>>>> The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing.
>>>>
>>>> Investors would never have to worry about the market going down.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the
>>>> need to
>>>> worry about unpleasant realities?
>>>>
>>>> d/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>    Dave Crocker
>>>>    Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>>    bbiw.net
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 81attendees mailing list
>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 81attendees mailing list
>>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>

-- 
Carlos M. Martinez
LACNIC I+D
PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2
Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419


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    For the record, I wasn't trying to argue with Randy :-))) 

    

    I just wanted to state my opinion on what I believe is a real
    problem we might have to work on.

    

    On 8/4/11 1:05 PM, Jim Gettys wrote:
    

      
      On 08/04/2011 11:50 AM, Carlos M. Martinez wrote:
      

        
I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened
to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized
by network operators and used only for extracting a premium for things
that should work anyway.

Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages
wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible
position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even
there Delta Hotels showed us that it can also happen), but it's
definitely the case in other regions where BW costs are still quite high.

Pretending that congestion does not exist will not make it disappear,
and arguing that the cure for congestion is overprovisioning creates a
situation where networks will always experience periods of poor
perceived quality, as congestion and provisioning happen on different
time scales.

      

      I don't think that was what Randy was saying though....

      

      I believe he was agreeing with my comment that while QOS is
      useful, it won't solve the bufferbloat problem.  QOS just moves
      who suffers most, and having buffers perennially full makes them
      malfunction in general.  It's why if I have to choose between QOS
      and working AQM, I'll pick working AQM all the time.

      

      Modern operating systems hardware and applications will congest
      any edge link; congestion in the edge (and a hotel is clearly the
      edge) is going to be with us forever.  Handling congestion
      properly in this environment is now absolutely essential.

      

      Basically, over CONUS delays, a single TCP connection on WinXP
      won't do over 6 MBps (no TCP window scaling).

      Later versions of Windows rate limit to below that of a 100Mbps
      ethernet switch (saturating most wireless and broadband links).
      Everything else will saturate to gigabit or more without blinking
      twice.

      

      Saturation of the edge is the *normal* situation; we just didn't
      notice when BitTorrent  saturated links using many TCP connections
      on XP years ago, so we lost years recognising what was happening.

      

      To solve congestion requires *timely* notification of the end
      points to slow down rather than tail drop off grossly bloated
      buffers, and right now, we only have packet loss to do that
      signalling.  It's often/usually so bad that TCP congestion
      avoidance is no longer functioning. Getting ECN enabled would give
      us congestion signalling without necessarily having packet loss.

      

      

      

        
Granted there can be "good" players who always invest ahead of the
curve, but, let's be honest here, they are the minority.

Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as
in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network
should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then
it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse.

I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is
with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It
is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider
interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do
something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port
is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue.

Warm regards,

Carlos

On 8/4/11 12:30 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:


        

          
Dave,

I didn't want to jump on this but I agree with your point.

QoS in providers today is used to prioritize packets for people paying a lot more than others for such things as VPN services.  The rest get usually extremely good "best effort" service as has been the case for most providers who have survived over the last decade or two (survived in some form or another, generous buyouts in the mid to late 1990s not withstanding).

There can be improvement.  Good to hear that there is interest again.  The bufferbloat discussion and work and the mention of transport area activity is a symptom of interest and activity regarding doing things better in the host, CPE, and access/edge devices.

Curtis



          

            
-----Original Message-----
From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-
bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 6:25 AM
To: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat)



On 8/3/2011 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote:


            

              
qos is about whose/which packets to drop.  i am not paid to drop
packets, i am paid to deliver them.


            

            
Excellent.

Let's ignore capacity limits and congestion completely.  The knee of
the curve
is a waste of our efforts.

Think of how much simpler life would be if we paid no attention to
downsides.

Armies would never give thought to retreat.  Armies are there to
advance, not
retreat.

Carry this further and they would not have to worry about soldiers
getting
injured.  Armies are for hurting the other guys, not getting hurt.

The medical profession would never have to worry about patients dieing.

Investors would never have to worry about the market going down.

Wouldn't it be great if a clever sound bit really did eliminate the
need to
worry about unpleasant realities?

d/

--

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


          

          
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


        

        

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


      

      

    

    

    
-- 
Carlos M. Martinez
LACNIC I+D
PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2
Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419


  


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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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I vote for a social where we go scuba diving and/or snorkeling with the 
manatees. Divers/swimmers only need to apply.

     Tony

On 8/4/2011 12:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>> Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same venue.
>
> Oy.   Well, I guess I can tough it out.   Maybe there will be manatees...
>
> :)

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    I vote for a social where we go scuba diving and/or snorkeling with
    the manatees. Divers/swimmers only need to apply.

    

        Tony

    

    On 8/4/2011 12:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
    

      

        
On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

        
Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same
            venue.

          

      

      

      
Oy.   Well, I guess I can tough it out.   Maybe there will be
        manatees…

      


      

      
:)

    

  


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+1

On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:35 PM, Tony Hansen wrote:

I vote for a social where we go scuba diving and/or snorkeling with the man=
atees. Divers/swimmers only need to apply.

    Tony

On 8/4/2011 12:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same venue.

Oy.   Well, I guess I can tough it out.   Maybe there will be manatees=85

:)
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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+1

On Au=
g 4, 2011, at 1:35 PM, Tony Hansen wrote:



 =20
  

    I vote for a social where we go scuba diving and/or snorkeling with
    the manatees. Divers/swimmers only need to apply.

    

        Tony

    

    On 8/4/2011 12:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
    

      

        
On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

        
Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same
            venue.

          

      

      

      
Oy.   Well, I guess I can tough it out.   Maybe there =
will be
        manatees=85

      


      

      
:)

    

  


_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list=

81attendees@ietf.org
htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

=

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From ben@estacado.net  Thu Aug  4 10:48:40 2011
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Add sailors to the list and I'm in.

On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote:

> +1
>=20
> On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:35 PM, Tony Hansen wrote:
>=20
>> I vote for a social where we go scuba diving and/or snorkeling with =
the manatees. Divers/swimmers only need to apply.
>>=20
>>     Tony
>>=20
>> On 8/4/2011 12:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>>>> Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same venue.
>>>=20
>>> Oy.   Well, I guess I can tough it out.   Maybe there will be =
manatees=85
>>>=20
>>> :)
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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+1

On Aug 4, =
2011, at 1:35 PM, Tony Hansen wrote:



 =20
  

    I vote for a social where we go scuba diving and/or snorkeling with
    the manatees. Divers/swimmers only need to apply.

    

        Tony

    

    On 8/4/2011 12:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
    
=

      

        
On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

        
Yes, back-to-back with IEEE, same
            venue.

          

      

      

      
Oy.   Well, I guess I can tough it out.   Maybe =
there will be
        manatees=85

      


      

      
:)

    

  


_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing =
list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

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mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
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ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

=
=

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From mellon@fugue.com  Thu Aug  4 10:54:44 2011
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On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> Add sailors to the list and I'm in.

The main cause of death among manatees is watercraft strikes.   So it's =
probably better to go with a kayak than a sailboat=97the shallower keel =
and lower speeds are less likely to wreck your manatee-visiting =
experience.=

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Add sailors =
to the list and I'm in.

The main =
cause of death among manatees is watercraft strikes.   So it's =
probably better to go with a kayak than a sailboat=97the shallower keel =
and lower speeds are less likely to wreck your manatee-visiting =
experience.
=

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To: , 
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:03:44 -0400
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub	airport discussion
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I thought most people wanted locations and air temperatures such that IETFs=
 were not tempted to reduce layers?

From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On=
 Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:55 PM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discus=
sion

On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
Add sailors to the list and I'm in.

The main cause of death among manatees is watercraft strikes.   So it's pro=
bably better to go with a kayak than a sailboat-the shallower keel and lowe=
r speeds are less likely to wreck your manatee-visiting experience.

--_000_AE31510960917D478171C79369B660FA0E054859D0MX06Acorpemcc_
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I thought most people wanted locations and air temperatures such=
 that IETFs were not tempted to reduce layers?
 
From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.=
org] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 201=
1 1:55 PM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
=
Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport=
 discussion
&nbs=
p;
On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Ben =
Campbell wrote:
Add sail=
ors to the list and I'm in.
=

 
The mai=
n cause of death among manatees is watercraft strikes.   So it's proba=
bly better to go with a kayak than a sailboat—the shallower keel and =
lower speeds are less likely to wreck your manatee-visiting experience.
=

--_000_AE31510960917D478171C79369B660FA0E054859D0MX06Acorpemcc_--

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From: Ross Callon 
To: Mary Barnes 
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:21:15 -0400
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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> That all said, I am very much of the mindset that we should find 6 locati=
ons that work well and
> just rotate amongst those for x years and then re-evaluate.  I'd be perfe=
ctly happy if we met in
> Minneapolis once every two years.  And, I think the other 5 could easily =
be determined based on
> past meetings.  Of course, I am biased in that I don't have time to sight=
 see during the meeting
> week, so I don't consider the tourism appeal of a city as an important fa=
ctor in choosing a venue
> for a business meeting.
>
> Mary.
My recollection is that rotating through a small number of cities is bad in=
 terms of attracting sponsors - most sponsors want to host a meeting which =
is in a city which is somewhat close to their main location or central to t=
heir main country. If we did pick a few locations to rotate between, I am s=
uspecting that we might want more than six - for example while I also am fi=
ne with Minnesota, I also think that Vancouver has worked out well more tha=
n once and I suspect that we might want one or two east coast North America=
 locations (perhaps one in Canada and one in the US). Similarly in both Eur=
ope and Asia we have had some IETF's in good locations, but I can't think o=
f one or two places per continent that stand out as being particularly appr=
opriate to return to.

Ross

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 =

>=
; That all said, I am very much of the mindset that we should find 6=
 locations that work well and
> just rotate amongst those for=
 x years and then re-evaluate.  I'd be perfectly happy if we met in
> Minneapolis once every two years.  And, I think the othe=
r 5 could easily be determined based on<=
/o:p>
> past meetings. &nbs=
p;Of course, I am biased in that I don't have time to sight see during the =
meeting
> week, so I don't consider the tourism appeal of a c=
ity as an important factor in choosing a venue
> for a busine=
ss meeting.  
> 
> Mary. 
My recollection is that rotating through a small num=
ber of cities is bad in terms of attracting sponsors – most sponsors =
want to host a meeting which is in a city which is somewhat close to their =
main location or central to their main country. If we did pick a few locati=
ons to rotate between, I am suspecting that we might want more than six =
211; for example while I also am fine with Minnesota, I also think that Van=
couver has worked out well more than once and I suspect that we might want =
one or two east coast North America locations (perhaps one in Canada and on=
e in the US). Similarly in both Europe and Asia we have had some IETF’=
;s in good locations, but I can’t think of one or two places per cont=
inent that stand out as being particularly appropriate to return to. <=
/o:p>
 
Ross
=

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Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 04:51:42 +1000
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From: Narelle 
To: Joe Touch 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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Well, I for one would be happy to assist in organising any IETF held
in Sydney. I am sure there is a mathematical function (participants,
geography, frequency) we can come up with that we can multiply by
dollars, take the determinant and share this equitably around.

Sydney has trains from all over Australia, and a major international
airport, excellent restaurants and many sideline activities... I
frequently get ferries into the city which is delightful.

Oh, and it would save me spending 24hrs+ in transit getting to
meetings... and probably encourage another generation of participants
from around the region.

Our dollar is very strong right now, which would muck US and other
participants around (less so for EU and Cd). Yes, our customs,
immigration and visa rules are tough, though visa waivers exist for
US, Cd, EU, NZ, UK, Jp and more, and ietf procedures are streamlined.


Best regards


Narelle


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Joe Touch  wrote:
>
>
> On 8/4/2011 7:37 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
> ...
>>
>> And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this location
>> before and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When can we
>> have another meeting in Australia?
>
> Keith,
>
> That's the logic that led us to QC over Vancouver (the latter actually
> having real international connections).
>
> Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans.
>
> This ought to be about picking a location that enables attendees most
> conveniently and economically to participate in an IETF meeting.
>
> Consider OFC. There are two meetings a year, and they *never* move.
>
> Somehow we've replaced 'distributing the pain' with 'increasing everyone's
> pain so a few can use the IETF as a vacation spot'. And - as noted in other
> posts - we seem to avoid obvious locations with very economical costs, even
> if we want to 'mix it up'.
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>



-- 


Narelle
narellec@gmail.com

From andrewmcgr@gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 11:56:47 2011
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To: Narelle 
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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It's past time the South Pacific got another=85 Adelaide was a long time =
ago, and Auckland seems to have missed its chance.

On 4/08/2011, at 11:51 AM, Narelle wrote:

> Well, I for one would be happy to assist in organising any IETF held
> in Sydney. I am sure there is a mathematical function (participants,
> geography, frequency) we can come up with that we can multiply by
> dollars, take the determinant and share this equitably around.
>=20
> Sydney has trains from all over Australia, and a major international
> airport, excellent restaurants and many sideline activities... I
> frequently get ferries into the city which is delightful.
>=20
> Oh, and it would save me spending 24hrs+ in transit getting to
> meetings... and probably encourage another generation of participants
> from around the region.
>=20
> Our dollar is very strong right now, which would muck US and other
> participants around (less so for EU and Cd). Yes, our customs,
> immigration and visa rules are tough, though visa waivers exist for
> US, Cd, EU, NZ, UK, Jp and more, and ietf procedures are streamlined.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
>=20
>=20
> Narelle
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Joe Touch  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 8/4/2011 7:37 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
>> ...
>>>=20
>>> And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this location
>>> before and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When can =
we
>>> have another meeting in Australia?
>>=20
>> Keith,
>>=20
>> That's the logic that led us to QC over Vancouver (the latter =
actually
>> having real international connections).
>>=20
>> Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans.
>>=20
>> This ought to be about picking a location that enables attendees most
>> conveniently and economically to participate in an IETF meeting.
>>=20
>> Consider OFC. There are two meetings a year, and they *never* move.
>>=20
>> Somehow we've replaced 'distributing the pain' with 'increasing =
everyone's
>> pain so a few can use the IETF as a vacation spot'. And - as noted in =
other
>> posts - we seem to avoid obvious locations with very economical =
costs, even
>> if we want to 'mix it up'.
>>=20
>> Joe
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
>=20
> Narelle
> narellec@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com  Thu Aug  4 11:59:28 2011
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On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 12:21:15PM -0400, Ross Callon wrote:

> think that Vancouver has worked out well more than once and I
> suspect that we might want one or two east coast North America
> locations (perhaps one in Canada and one in the US).

I think this is an excellent idea.  Both Halifax, NS and St John's, NL
would be interesting places to go, are large enough to have the
facilities, and would ensure that we had a lot of discussion about how
hard it is to get to places in Canada.  In St John's case, however,
we'd have the advantage that it would be equally difficult for almost
everyone.

(ObSmiley redacted)

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com


From carlosm3011@gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 12:03:10 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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I'd love to see one in South America. For the hub pickers, GRU, EZE, SCL
and LIM have more than adequeate connections to North America and
Europe, and SCL is quite convenient for Australians as well as SCL and
EZE are reachable in a single leg from Sydney and Auckland.

All four cities have adequate venues and, with the possible exception of
GRU, all should be relatively cheap.

regards

Carlos

On 8/4/11 3:56 PM, Andrew McGregor wrote:
> It's past time the South Pacific got another… Adelaide was a long time ago, and Auckland seems to have missed its chance.
>
> On 4/08/2011, at 11:51 AM, Narelle wrote:
>
>> Well, I for one would be happy to assist in organising any IETF held
>> in Sydney. I am sure there is a mathematical function (participants,
>> geography, frequency) we can come up with that we can multiply by
>> dollars, take the determinant and share this equitably around.
>>
>> Sydney has trains from all over Australia, and a major international
>> airport, excellent restaurants and many sideline activities... I
>> frequently get ferries into the city which is delightful.
>>
>> Oh, and it would save me spending 24hrs+ in transit getting to
>> meetings... and probably encourage another generation of participants
>> from around the region.
>>
>> Our dollar is very strong right now, which would muck US and other
>> participants around (less so for EU and Cd). Yes, our customs,
>> immigration and visa rules are tough, though visa waivers exist for
>> US, Cd, EU, NZ, UK, Jp and more, and ietf procedures are streamlined.
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>>
>> Narelle
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Joe Touch  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8/4/2011 7:37 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this location
>>>> before and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When can we
>>>> have another meeting in Australia?
>>> Keith,
>>>
>>> That's the logic that led us to QC over Vancouver (the latter actually
>>> having real international connections).
>>>
>>> Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans.
>>>
>>> This ought to be about picking a location that enables attendees most
>>> conveniently and economically to participate in an IETF meeting.
>>>
>>> Consider OFC. There are two meetings a year, and they *never* move.
>>>
>>> Somehow we've replaced 'distributing the pain' with 'increasing everyone's
>>> pain so a few can use the IETF as a vacation spot'. And - as noted in other
>>> posts - we seem to avoid obvious locations with very economical costs, even
>>> if we want to 'mix it up'.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 81attendees mailing list
>>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>
>> Narelle
>> narellec@gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

From carlos@lacnic.net  Thu Aug  4 12:10:15 2011
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I have a distant cousin in Red Deer, Alberta (really, no kidding), and
he tells me they have the largest country dance hall in North America. 
Something to consider I guess :-)

We could also go hunting there.


On 8/4/11 3:59 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 12:21:15PM -0400, Ross Callon wrote:
>
>> think that Vancouver has worked out well more than once and I
>> suspect that we might want one or two east coast North America
>> locations (perhaps one in Canada and one in the US).
> I think this is an excellent idea.  Both Halifax, NS and St John's, NL
> would be interesting places to go, are large enough to have the
> facilities, and would ensure that we had a lot of discussion about how
> hard it is to get to places in Canada.  In St John's case, however,
> we'd have the advantage that it would be equally difficult for almost
> everyone.
>
> (ObSmiley redacted)
>
> A
>

-- 
Carlos M. Martinez
LACNIC I+D
PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2
Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419


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From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Thu Aug  4 12:17:24 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Ted Lemon , Ben Campbell 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] hijacked thread (was: connection/ hub airport discussion)
Thread-Index: AQHMUs+jZAzA29HhB0quBUuCXplUmJUNDdTA
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:17:37 +0000
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Small sailboats (USCG defines small as under 65 ft) typically only do about=
 5-7 knots and keel strikes don't generally kill anything that big.  Being =
pushed through the water by a blunt keel is no worse than being pulled at t=
he same speed.  It is planing hulls and prop strikes from motor boats which=
 are going very fast in shallow water that leave the manatee no place to go=
 and kill them.

BTW- an interesting statistic is that way more people die each year falling=
 off the dock (usually drunk) than sailing.  There are typically only about=
 a dozen fatalities due to sailing in the US per year including offshore sa=
ilors, vs hundreds total (mostly 700-900 per year range).  USCG reports are=
 on the web.

But at this point we are way off topic and have by now thoroughly hijacked =
the thread.

Curtis

From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On=
 Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:55 AM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discus=
sion

On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
Add sailors to the list and I'm in.

The main cause of death among manatees is watercraft strikes.   So it's pro=
bably better to go with a kayak than a sailboat-the shallower keel and lowe=
r speeds are less likely to wreck your manatee-visiting experience.

--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07611310SVEXDBPROD1infi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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Small sailboats (USCG defines small as under 65 ft) typicall=
y only do about 5-7 knots and keel strikes don’t generally kill anyth=
ing that big.  Being pushed
 through the water by a blunt keel is no worse than being pulled at the sam=
e speed.  It is planing hulls and prop strikes from motor boats which =
are going very fast in shallow water that leave the manatee no place to go =
and kill them.


 


BTW- an interesting statistic is that way more people die ea=
ch year falling off the dock (usually drunk) than sailing.  There are =
typically only about a dozen
 fatalities due to sailing in the US per year including offshore sailors, v=
s hundreds total (mostly 700-900 per year range).  USCG reports are on=
 the web.


 


But at this point we are way off topic and have by now thoro=
ughly hijacked the thread.


 


Curtis


 








From: 81attend=
ees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Ted Lemon

Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:55 AM

To: Ben Campbell

Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport=
 discussion






 






On Aug 4, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:=







Add sailors to th=
e list and I'm in.






 




The main cause of death among manatees is watercraft=
 strikes.   So it's probably better to go with a kayak than a sailboat=
—the shallower keel and lower speeds are less likely to wreck your ma=
natee-visiting experience.










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From jbradley@mac.com  Thu Aug  4 13:07:09 2011
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Having moved from Canada to Chile, I feel compelled to point out the =
wonderful facilities and direct flights from Europe and North America =
and Aukland.

We do however have a reciprocity fee for Americans, but the American Gov =
could fix that if they wanted:)

John Bradley


On 2011-08-04, at 2:59 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 12:21:15PM -0400, Ross Callon wrote:
>=20
>> think that Vancouver has worked out well more than once and I
>> suspect that we might want one or two east coast North America
>> locations (perhaps one in Canada and one in the US).
>=20
> I think this is an excellent idea.  Both Halifax, NS and St John's, NL
> would be interesting places to go, are large enough to have the
> facilities, and would ensure that we had a lot of discussion about how
> hard it is to get to places in Canada.  In St John's case, however,
> we'd have the advantage that it would be equally difficult for almost
> everyone.
>=20
> (ObSmiley redacted)
>=20
> A
>=20
> --=20
> Andrew Sullivan
> ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport	discussion
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+1
On 2011-08-04, at 3:03 PM, Carlos M. Martinez wrote:

> I'd love to see one in South America. For the hub pickers, GRU, EZE, =
SCL
> and LIM have more than adequeate connections to North America and
> Europe, and SCL is quite convenient for Australians as well as SCL and
> EZE are reachable in a single leg from Sydney and Auckland.
>=20
> All four cities have adequate venues and, with the possible exception =
of
> GRU, all should be relatively cheap.
>=20
> regards
>=20
> Carlos
>=20
> On 8/4/11 3:56 PM, Andrew McGregor wrote:
>> It's past time the South Pacific got another=85 Adelaide was a long =
time ago, and Auckland seems to have missed its chance.
>>=20
>> On 4/08/2011, at 11:51 AM, Narelle wrote:
>>=20
>>> Well, I for one would be happy to assist in organising any IETF held
>>> in Sydney. I am sure there is a mathematical function (participants,
>>> geography, frequency) we can come up with that we can multiply by
>>> dollars, take the determinant and share this equitably around.
>>>=20
>>> Sydney has trains from all over Australia, and a major international
>>> airport, excellent restaurants and many sideline activities... I
>>> frequently get ferries into the city which is delightful.
>>>=20
>>> Oh, and it would save me spending 24hrs+ in transit getting to
>>> meetings... and probably encourage another generation of =
participants
>>> from around the region.
>>>=20
>>> Our dollar is very strong right now, which would muck US and other
>>> participants around (less so for EU and Cd). Yes, our customs,
>>> immigration and visa rules are tough, though visa waivers exist for
>>> US, Cd, EU, NZ, UK, Jp and more, and ietf procedures are =
streamlined.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Best regards
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Narelle
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Joe Touch  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On 8/4/2011 7:37 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> And overriding these is always the "I haven't been to this =
location
>>>>> before and it seems like a nice part of the world" factor! When =
can we
>>>>> have another meeting in Australia?
>>>> Keith,
>>>>=20
>>>> That's the logic that led us to QC over Vancouver (the latter =
actually
>>>> having real international connections).
>>>>=20
>>>> Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans.
>>>>=20
>>>> This ought to be about picking a location that enables attendees =
most
>>>> conveniently and economically to participate in an IETF meeting.
>>>>=20
>>>> Consider OFC. There are two meetings a year, and they *never* move.
>>>>=20
>>>> Somehow we've replaced 'distributing the pain' with 'increasing =
everyone's
>>>> pain so a few can use the IETF as a vacation spot'. And - as noted =
in other
>>>> posts - we seem to avoid obvious locations with very economical =
costs, even
>>>> if we want to 'mix it up'.
>>>>=20
>>>> Joe
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 81attendees mailing list
>>>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Narelle
>>> narellec@gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 81attendees mailing list
>>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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From randy@psg.com  Thu Aug  4 13:34:05 2011
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Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 05:34:16 +0900
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From: Randy Bush 
To: Ole Jacobsen 
In-Reply-To: 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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> Your statement reminds me a bit of the arguments heard prior to IETF
> in China. "We don't believe in their Internet policies, we shouldn't
> go there!"

on that criterion there are few countries with clean hands, certainly
not the states.  so we will soon be in reykjav=EDk.  i was just at a
nordunet meeting there.  lovely place.

randy

From roland.bless@kit.edu  Thu Aug  4 13:35:25 2011
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From: Roland Bless 
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat)
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Hi Carlos,

On 04.08.2011 17:50, Carlos M. Martinez wrote:
> I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened
> to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized

QoS is there for differentiation of packet/flow treatment,
i.e., managed unfairness, while congestion management tries
to provide fairness between users/flows in a best-effort class.
QoS still doesn't solve the problem of trying to share the capacity
between users in the same QoS class.

> Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages
> wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible
> position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even

Yes, indeed, DDoS flooding, misbehaving flows and unbalanced traffic
matrices may still cause problems for overprovisioned networks.

> Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as
> in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network
> should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then
> it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse.

Yes, but this is also true for more clever congestion management schemes.

> I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is
> with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It
> is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider
> interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do
> something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port
> is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue.

There are signaling solutions out there for this, e.g., NSIS
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/nsis/ provided solutions for both
Port management for NAT/Firewalls as well as for QoS signaling.
Giving a tool into the users' hand so that they can actually
decide what is more important and should be treated with better
QoS would be a good thing also from the perspective of net neutrality.
But the complexity of providing everything (control plane + DiffServ
etc.) for QoS support is obviously still a too high effort.

Regards,
 Roland

From carlos@lacnic.net  Thu Aug  4 13:40:49 2011
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [81attendees] sucky Delta hotel network (and bufferbloat)
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Thanks Roland. My main point is that I do believe that we have an
interesting problem at hand, one that goes beyond bashing Delta Hotels
(however fun it can be :-) ).

Funny fact: some of the most interesting IETF-related discussions that
I've had have been on the lists *after* the event itself :-)

cheers!

Carlos

On 8/4/11 5:35 PM, Roland Bless wrote:
> Hi Carlos,
>
> On 04.08.2011 17:50, Carlos M. Martinez wrote:
>> I fail to see a better argument for implementing QoS than what happened
>> to the Delta Hotel in QC. I agree that QoS has been somewhat bastardized
> QoS is there for differentiation of packet/flow treatment,
> i.e., managed unfairness, while congestion management tries
> to provide fairness between users/flows in a best-effort class.
> QoS still doesn't solve the problem of trying to share the capacity
> between users in the same QoS class.
>
>> Arguing that every network should always be overprovisioned encourages
>> wasteful behaviour on all parts and puts many players in an impossible
>> position. It might be not so impossible in the US/Canada (although even
> Yes, indeed, DDoS flooding, misbehaving flows and unbalanced traffic
> matrices may still cause problems for overprovisioned networks.
>
>> Dropping packets is a bad thing. However, dropping packets blindly (as
>> in pretending congestion does not exist) is much worse. The network
>> should avoid dropping packets at all costs, but if it has to drop, then
>> it should do it smartly and avoid making the situation worse.
> Yes, but this is also true for more clever congestion management schemes.
>
>> I do believe there is a management problem in the same sense as there is
>> with CGNs and port forwarding, which has lead to the creation of PCP. It
>> is basically a remote management protocol allowing customer-provider
>> interaction (ATM UNI anyone ??? :-)))) ). Well, maybe we could do
>> something for QoS. Phoning your ISP each time you need to forward a port
>> is every bit as impracticable as phoning the ISP to create a QoS queue.
> There are signaling solutions out there for this, e.g., NSIS
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/nsis/ provided solutions for both
> Port management for NAT/Firewalls as well as for QoS signaling.
> Giving a tool into the users' hand so that they can actually
> decide what is more important and should be treated with better
> QoS would be a good thing also from the perspective of net neutrality.
> But the complexity of providing everything (control plane + DiffServ
> etc.) for QoS support is obviously still a too high effort.
>
> Regards,
>  Roland

-- 
Carlos M. Martinez
LACNIC I+D
PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2
Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419


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From sebastian@nzrs.net.nz  Thu Aug  4 14:04:47 2011
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On 05/08/11 08:07, John Bradley wrote:
> Having moved from Canada to Chile, I feel compelled to point out the
> wonderful facilities and direct flights from Europe and North America
> and Aukland.
> 

I wouldn't mind shortening my trip in time and number of hops by holding
an IETF meeting in SCL. WLG -> AKL -> SCL would be ~16 hours compared to
the 36 hours from WLG to Maastricht (WLG -> AKL -> HKG -> LHR -> BRU ->
Maastricht).

Jokes aside, one of the things I've observed with the venue diversity
it's attracting local  attendants that later keep coming to the
meetings. So it's serving a purpose of "democratising" the IETF process
at some extent by bringing new people.



> We do however have a reciprocity fee for Americans, but the American
> Gov could fix that if they wanted:)
> 
> John Bradley
> 
> 
> On 2011-08-04, at 2:59 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 12:21:15PM -0400, Ross Callon wrote:
>> 
>>> think that Vancouver has worked out well more than once and I 
>>> suspect that we might want one or two east coast North America 
>>> locations (perhaps one in Canada and one in the US).
>> 
>> I think this is an excellent idea.  Both Halifax, NS and St John's,
>> NL would be interesting places to go, are large enough to have the 
>> facilities, and would ensure that we had a lot of discussion about
>> how hard it is to get to places in Canada.  In St John's case,
>> however, we'd have the advantage that it would be equally difficult
>> for almost everyone.
>> 
>> (ObSmiley redacted)
>> 
>> A
>> 
>> -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing
>> list 81attendees@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 81attendees mailing
> list 81attendees@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


-- 
Sebastian Castro
DNS Specialist
.nz Registry Services (New Zealand Domain Name Registry Limited)
desk: +64 4 495 2337
mobile: +64 21 400535

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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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On 8/4/11 3:04 PM, Sebastian Castro wrote:
> On 05/08/11 08:07, John Bradley wrote:
>> Having moved from Canada to Chile, I feel compelled to point out the
>> wonderful facilities and direct flights from Europe and North America
>> and Aukland.
> 
> I wouldn't mind shortening my trip in time and number of hops by holding
> an IETF meeting in SCL. WLG -> AKL -> SCL would be ~16 hours compared to
> the 36 hours from WLG to Maastricht (WLG -> AKL -> HKG -> LHR -> BRU ->
> Maastricht).
> 
> Jokes aside, one of the things I've observed with the venue diversity
> it's attracting local  attendants that later keep coming to the
> meetings. So it's serving a purpose of "democratising" the IETF process
> at some extent by bringing new people.

We could rotate between Iceland and Hawaii (each is between two major
continents), or add Mauritius for a third location. :)

/psa


From ynir@checkpoint.com  Thu Aug  4 14:29:24 2011
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From: Yoav Nir 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 00:29:36 +0300
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:09 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 8/4/11 3:04 PM, Sebastian Castro wrote:
>> On 05/08/11 08:07, John Bradley wrote:
>>> Having moved from Canada to Chile, I feel compelled to point out the
>>> wonderful facilities and direct flights from Europe and North America
>>> and Aukland.
>>=20
>> I wouldn't mind shortening my trip in time and number of hops by holding
>> an IETF meeting in SCL. WLG -> AKL -> SCL would be ~16 hours compared to
>> the 36 hours from WLG to Maastricht (WLG -> AKL -> HKG -> LHR -> BRU ->
>> Maastricht).
>>=20
>> Jokes aside, one of the things I've observed with the venue diversity
>> it's attracting local  attendants that later keep coming to the
>> meetings. So it's serving a purpose of "democratising" the IETF process
>> at some extent by bringing new people.
>=20
> We could rotate between Iceland and Hawaii (each is between two major
> continents), or add Mauritius for a third location. :)

Add Larnaca to the list. I could sail there in just over a day (or fly for =
25 minutes)=

From wjhns1@hardakers.net  Thu Aug  4 14:29:39 2011
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From: Wes Hardaker 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 14:29:23 -0700
In-Reply-To: <4E3B0A84.4030609@stpeter.im> (Peter Saint-Andre's message of "Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:09:24 -0600")
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>>>>> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:09:24 -0600, Peter Saint-Andre  said:

PS> We could rotate between Iceland and Hawaii (each is between two major
PS> continents), or add Mauritius for a third location. :)

Lets do Antarctica.  We could alternate it with Mineappolis in March.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
SPARTA, Inc.

From dougm@nist.gov  Thu Aug  4 14:34:20 2011
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From: "Montgomery, Douglas" 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Sebastian Castro 
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 17:34:26 -0400
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On 8/4/11 5:09 PM, "Peter Saint-Andre"  wrote:
>
>We could rotate between Iceland and Hawaii (each is between two major
>continents), or add Mauritius for a third location. :)

Can we get volcano insurance as part of the standard hotel/air
arrangements?
Dougm


From ole@cisco.com  Thu Aug  4 23:45:14 2011
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From: Ole Jacobsen 
To: Yoav Nir 
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>, Drew Dvorshak 
Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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General reply to this and the hub thread:

The IAOC is actively looking at possible venues for future IETF 
meetings in many parts of the world. We are constrained by many 
factors including availability during our (fixed) dates, cost of 
meeting facilities, and many other factors.

How can you help?  Find hosts and sponsors!  It is always MUCH easier
to have a meeting in a place where there are "folks on the ground" who
can provide assistance, funding, circuits, etc, etc.

For more info contact Drew Dvorshak 


Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: ole@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo



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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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On 4 Aug 2011, at 22:29, Wes Hardaker wrote:
>=20
> Lets do Antarctica.  We could alternate it with Mineappolis in March.

I actually love Minneapolis as a venue.  The main hotel is large, and =
the facilities for meetings very good.   Lots of nearby bars, cafes etc. =
=20

While secondary (non hub) cities make the travel on average that bit =
longer or more fraught with problems, I would far rather have a =
secondary venue where the meeting experience is excellent than have =
easier travel to a (relatively) poor venue.

Quebec had two large hotels right by the meeting rooms.  Those rooms =
were more than ample for our purpose, all on-site facilities and support =
were excellent, and within 5-10 minutes walk you had a wide range of =
bars, restaurants and shops.  As a bonus, there was some lovely scenery =
too.  I had serious problems with my connecting flight from Montreal, =
but the meeting itself was great.

Tim=

From rg+ietf@qualcomm.com  Sun Aug  7 15:26:49 2011
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To: John C Klensin , "Murray S. Kucherawy" , <81attendees@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion (was: Re: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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At 9:36 AM -0400 8/4/11, John C Klensin wrote:

>  I've
>  often had to insist on earlier flights out to provide what I
>  consider a reasonable margin of safety against missing a
>  connection if the inbound flight is delayed but, at that point,
>  I'm to blame for the longer layover, not the airline or airport.

I wouldn't say you were to blame, even though the longer layover may 
be by your choice, since your choice is driven by the risks of late 
inbound flights and the costs of running through airports.  I usually 
select flights with longer layovers because the risk is too great 
otherwise (and of course, I prefer different safety margins depending 
on the airport).

>  I think it is reasonable to be _much_ more concerned about
>  intermodal changes.   Not only are, e.g., plane-> train changes
>  often time-consuming but, because there is rarely any schedule
>  coordination between carriers, it is hard to sort tickets out
>  remotely for some countries (but not others), and the change
>  often involves dragging luggage around (not merely collecting it
>  and redepositing it some meters away).  Note that is an
>  objection to the transfer process (especially when exhausted
>  after a long trip), not to trains (which are usually great in
>  countries in which they actually work -- opinions about which
>  countries those are differ somewhat).

Absolutely agree.  I love taking trains in general (and found the 
Quebec-Montreal trip very pleasant), but connecting from an 
international flight to a train is a different matter (especially 
when one has to lug suitcases up or down stairs).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
I hold that the very purpose of existence is to reconcile the
glowing opinion we have of ourselves with the terrible things
that other people say about us.               --Quentin Crisp

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To: Ole Jacobsen , Joe Touch 
From: Randall Gellens 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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At 8:05 AM -0700 8/4/11, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

>  "Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans."
>
>  Please define "your" in the above statement. The selection was made
>  (partially) based on an IETF community survey.
>
>  Your statement reminds me a bit of the arguments heard prior to IETF
>  in China. "We don't believe in their Internet policies, we shouldn't
>  go there!" Nice slap in the face to the several hundred IETF
>  participants from China.

To me, it seems far more reasonable to consider a country's Internet 
policy, given the purpose and goals of the IETF, as well as how we 
work, than the desirability of a city as a vacation spot.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral?  It is
because we are not the person involved.                 --Mark Twain

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At 4:37 PM +0200 8/4/11, Keith (Keith) DRAGE wrote:

>  I'd much rather do a change from plane to train at Brussels that a 
> transit between terminals at ORD.

In my experience, the problem wasn't changing from plane to train at 
BRU (which was, in my opinion, about the same as changing terminals 
at ORD).  The problem was that to get from BRU to Maastricht required 
two subsequent trains changes, without benefit of escalators or 
elevators.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and
causes me to tremble for the safety of my country...corporations have
been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow,
and the money of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by
working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is
aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.  I feel at
this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever
before, even in the midst of war.
                                                    --Abraham Lincoln

From randy@qualcomm.com  Sun Aug  7 16:05:24 2011
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At 3:53 PM -0400 8/3/11, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

>  Other obvious hubs, of course, are Chicago, New York, Los Angeles,
>  London, Paris, Amsterdam, Tokyo, Hong Kong.  Or, if we want to keep
>  going to Canada, Toronto.

Well, Vancouver has non-stop flights to/from Europe and Asia.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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relation.                                      --Oscar Wilde

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At 8:12 AM -0700 8/4/11, Dave CROCKER wrote:

>  Hubs have more servicing airlines which means more competition. 
> There's a theory that competition among providers is better for the 
> consumer.  But it's only a theory.

It also makes it easier for attendees whose companies have preferred carriers.

>   > * While it may be easy to define a hub on paper, reality tends to make
>>     things a lot more complicated. A fair number of our attendees are
>>     "locked in" with certain air carriers and are thus forced to travel
>
>  You are suggesting this as a rationale for requiring /everyone/ to 
> make plane changes?

I'm coming into this thread late, but this is another reason to 
prefer cities with multiple carriers (whether or not they meet the 
definition of a hub).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase
of inflation was decreasing.  This was the first time a sitting
president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection.
    --Hugo Rossi, Mathmetician, Notices of the AMS, 43 (10) (Oct. 1996).

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At 11:53 AM -0700 8/3/11, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

>  It's not really possible to optimize for all the
>  desirable features of our locations, but our starting point is a
>  suitable meeting venue which everyone seems to agree QC had.

One nice thing about QC is that, even though we were in a conference 
center and not within a hotel, there was an attached hotel that was 
just as convenient.  Often, conference centers mean a lack of 
close-by hotels (e.g., Vienna, Montreal last time; Maastricht had a 
next-door hotel, but it was not large enough for everyone).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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Dullness is the coming of age of seriousness.     --Oscar Wilde

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>>  I think it is reasonable to be _much_ more concerned about
>>  intermodal changes.

I dunno.  I've found that train <-> plane changes at Philadelphia are a 
lot less hassle than plane <-> plane.  Because of where I live, about half 
of the flights to anywhere go via PHL, and despite trying to leave a whole 
lot of time between flights, e.g. three hours on the way back from Quebec, 
I've been stuck overnight two out of the last four times I've gone through 
there.  The trains to and from PHL run on time, and if your plane is late, 
you just take a later one.  Ditto EWR.

It seems to me that what is most needed is good local advice about 
connections.  For example, it clearly would have been useful for people to 
learn earlier that the rail connections from BRU to Maastricht are lousy, 
while the bus connections from YUL to Quebec are good, and (despite some 
uninformed assertions by people who've never been there) the area around 
the Quebec train and bus station is safe even late at night.

R's,
John

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At 11:10 AM -0700 8/3/11, Dave CROCKER wrote:

>  In addition, non-hub venues have much more fragile and limited 
> connectivity. Quebec city is serviced by a couple of regional 
> carriers, to only a few cities, codeshares with major airlines 
> notwithstanding.

Plenty of non-hub cities have much better air service.  (Multiple 
carriers, mainline jets, etc.)  If we were to include ease of access 
in the criteria, we wouldn't need to be so strict as only 
hub/non-hub, but could have a ranking that went from something like 
hub, hublet, multiple carriers with some intercontinental, multiple 
carriers with mainline jets, regional carriers only.

>  Transitions always make a process more fragile and carry additional cost.
>
>  (This includes opportunities for luggage or the passenger to miss 
> the connection.  I enjoyed both of these excellent experiences on 
> this trip -- one going and one returning -- by way of demonstrating 
> that these are not matters of theoretical concern.)

Sorry to hear you had problems both ways!

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Admiration: Our polite recognition of another's resemblance to ourselves

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At 5:41 PM -0400 8/3/11, Ted Lemon wrote:

>  Of course, very cold meeting rooms seem to be a pretty common 
> theme.   This is not the first IETF where my teeth have been 
> chattering as I tried to speak into the mic.

Yeah, the problem, I think, is that most conference facilities are 
set up for hordes of suit-wearers.  Another reason to consider 
open-air facilities in tropical venues (Hawaii was discussed not too 
long ago).  Plus, we can pack lighter, lessening our carbon footprint.

-- 
Randall Gellens
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-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Power corrupts; Powerpoint corrupts absolutely.
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At 5:47 PM -0400 8/3/11, Ted Lemon wrote:

>  I don't mean to criticize excessively, but the complaints about how 
> hard Hiroshima was to get to pretty much blew my mind.   It was not 
> only easy, but pleasant.   The people who had trouble were the ones 
> who refused to use ground transportation, even though ground 
> transportation in Japan is much better than air transport.

I think this statement minimizes the problems some people had, and 
unfairly makes it all their own fault.  Personally, I did a lot of 
research, but to avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to take a 
once-a-day domestic connection, then a taxi, then a train, then 
another taxi.  It wasn't easy or pleasant, and relied heavily on 
ground transport.  Relying entirely on ground transport would have 
added another day.  (I admit I could also have taken a different 
carrier which had different destinations, but that meant forgoing an 
upgrade plus other problems.)

>     Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning.   If you 
> do the homework, which mostly involves asking people who know the 
> area what to do, you get there, and it's not a problem.   If you 
> don't, you have a difficult time.

I disagree and find the statement patronizing.  Doing research can 
allow one to attempt to select the best option, but that may still 
involve problems.

>  I would complain pretty loudly if I had to go to Dallas for every 
> IETF-there's no food, and you have to rent a car, because there is 
> no public transport, and the hotels are all out in the middle of 
> nowhere.

I agree.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
To travel is to discover that everyone is wrong about other countries.
    --Aldous Huxley

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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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On Aug 7, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> I think this statement minimizes the problems some people had, and=20
> unfairly makes it all their own fault.  Personally, I did a lot of=20
> research, but to avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to take a=20
> once-a-day domestic connection, then a taxi, then a train, then=20
> another taxi.=20

Sure, but why did you have to avoid the overnight?   You just flew to =
Japan from the U.S. (I assume).   That's a heck of a long flight.   Why =
not sleep in Tokyo and continue on to Hiroshima the next day?  You're =
just going to have to sleep in Hiroshima anyway, and the train to =
Hiroshima is _fast_.

> I disagree and find the statement patronizing.  Doing research can=20
> allow one to attempt to select the best option, but that may still=20
> involve problems.

Sure.   If you don't want to have travel problems, don't travel.   =
Travel problems are a natural part of travel, even if you are traveling =
to a hub.   Certainly the more quick changes in your itinerary, the more =
chances there are for there to be problems, but even a nonstop flight =
can turn into a fiasco=97last time I flew from SFO to JFK, a =
thunderstorm closed the airport for six hours, and we had to land in =
Allentown to refuel.   And then when I got to JFK, the line for taxis =
was easily several hours long, so I had to take the subway.   My easy =
flight home turned into a royal hassle.   That's the risk you run when =
you venture out into the world=85 :)


--Apple-Mail=_0DD048AC-CB6C-47F3-81C5-852189007194
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I think this =
statement minimizes the problems some people had, and 
unfairly makes it all =
their own fault.  Personally, I did a lot of 
research, but to avoid =
an overnight in NRT/TKO had to take a 
once-a-day domestic =
connection, then a taxi, then a train, then 
another taxi. 
Sure, but why did you have to avoid the overnight?   You just =
flew to Japan from the U.S. (I assume).   That's a heck of a long =
flight.   Why not sleep in Tokyo and continue on to Hiroshima the =
next day?  You're just going to have to sleep in Hiroshima anyway, =
and the train to Hiroshima is =
_fast_.

I disagree =
and find the statement patronizing.  Doing research =
can 
allow one to attempt to select the best option, but that =
may still 
involve problems.

Sure. =
  If you don't want to have travel problems, don't travel.   =
Travel problems are a natural part of travel, even if you are traveling =
to a hub.   Certainly the more quick changes in your itinerary, the =
more chances there are for there to be problems, but even a nonstop =
flight can turn into a fiasco=97last time I flew from SFO to JFK, a =
thunderstorm closed the airport for six hours, and we had to land in =
Allentown to refuel.   And then when I got to JFK, the line for =
taxis was easily several hours long, so I had to take the subway.   =
My easy flight home turned into a royal hassle.   That's the risk =
you run when you venture out into the world=85 =
:)

=

--Apple-Mail=_0DD048AC-CB6C-47F3-81C5-852189007194--

From randy@psg.com  Sun Aug  7 18:21:01 2011
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> I did a lot of research, but to avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to
> take a once-a-day domestic connection, then a taxi, then a train, then
> another taxi.

the way to avoid an overnight in nrt is to not fly there.  same for
about 1,000 other airports enroute hiroshima.  you did the equivalent of
flying to jfk to get to chicago.

kansei is the major international airport that serves hiroshima.
despite living in tokyo, i flew from doing biz in the states to kansei
and then the easy train and then the free streetcar to the venue.  was
easy.

as ted said:

>> Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning.  If you do the
>> homework, which mostly involves asking people who know the area what
>> to do, you get there, and it's not a problem.  If you don't, you have
>> a difficult time.

randy

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Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:43:01 -0700
To: Ted Lemon 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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At 8:35 PM -0400 8/7/11, Ted Lemon wrote:

>  Sure, but why did you have to avoid the overnight?   You just flew 
> to Japan from the U.S. (I assume).   That's a heck of a long 
> flight.   Why not sleep in Tokyo and continue on to Hiroshima the 
> next day?  You're just going to have to sleep in Hiroshima anyway, 
> and the train to Hiroshima is _fast_.

Fast as it may be, it's still a lot of time.  I'd rather have that 
time in the destination.

>>  I disagree and find the statement patronizing.  Doing research can 
>>  allow one to attempt to select the best option, but that may still
>>  involve problems.
>
>  Sure.   If you don't want to have travel problems, don't travel.

I was objecting to your statement that only those people who 
neglected to do any research experienced problems.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Cats aren't clean, they're just covered with cat spit.
                                    --John S. Nichols

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At 10:21 AM +0900 8/8/11, Randy Bush wrote:

>   > I did a lot of research, but to avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to
>>  take a once-a-day domestic connection, then a taxi, then a train, then
>>  another taxi.
>
>  the way to avoid an overnight in nrt is to not fly there.

I said that I could have done that, but it would have forced a 
different carrier and hence a downgrade.

>  as ted said:
>
>>>  Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning.  If you do the
>>>  homework, which mostly involves asking people who know the area what
>>>  to do, you get there, and it's not a problem.  If you don't, you have
>>>  a difficult time.

As I said, I did oodles of research.  One could argue about the 
merits of such research versus, say, reading or writing drafts, but 
that's a different point.  The assertion that only people who failed 
to do research experienced problems is silly.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
But, something that only exists in thought is even better, as
you can read for yourself in my favorite book of (English)
verse and drawings, "The Space-Child's Mother Goose" (Verses
by Frederick Winsor, Illustrations by Marian Parry, Simon and
Schuster, 1958, unfortunately out of print):
    I have a pet hen whose name is Probable. She lays eggs in
    concept, being a sophist bird.  But not in reality at all;
    those would be inferior eggs; for thought is superior to
    reality.
--unknown

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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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At 7:16 PM -0400 8/7/11, John R. Levine wrote:

>  For example, it clearly would have been useful for people to learn 
> earlier that the rail connections from BRU to Maastricht are lousy

Yes, it would have been helpful to know this far enough in advance to 
have chosen a different airport.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
    Life is ... a shopping mall ... where items such as worldly success,
love of music, a strong backhand, close relationships with your family,
a few good friends and countless other things are on sale.
    The commodity with which they are purchased is not money, but time.
                                                   --William Rehnquist

From john-ietf@jck.com  Sun Aug  7 19:38:05 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion (was: Re: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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--On Sunday, August 07, 2011 15:29 -0700 Randall Gellens
 wrote:

>>  I'd much rather do a change from plane to train at Brussels
>>  that a  transit between terminals at ORD.
> 
> In my experience, the problem wasn't changing from plane to
> train at BRU (which was, in my opinion, about the same as
> changing terminals at ORD).  The problem was that to get from
> BRU to Maastricht required two subsequent trains changes,
> without benefit of escalators or elevators.

And, since people are comparing Maastricht to Hiroshima, therein
lies the difference.   In the latter case, people who looked at
advice on the relevant mailing lists and the web site were told
to fly to Kansai.  Those who did had relatively convenient train
connections (even though some of us had a time-consuming
"experience" in the airport train station when following those
same directions).  Those who did not often got to experience
Narita in all of its convenient glory, including the opportunity
for overnight stays.  Maastricht was a little different.  The
advice was to fly to BRU because it was closer and because there
were direct trains from BRU to Maastricht.  Available train
schedules also showed direct trains.   There actually were no
such trains, at least at the time of our meetings, there were
multiple train changes and, at least in my case, there was
little information on the trains and instructions from a train
conductor in what I believe was Flemish... a conductor who
discovered that he spoke English only long enough to berate
folks for not understanding his language.  Avoiding that
situation doesn't require research -- which several of us tried
to do-- it requires omniscience.

    john



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Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ole Jacobsen 
To: Randall Gellens 
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Having worked extensively on the planning for Hiroshima I can say with 
some amount of certainty that when it came to travel options, way too
many folks ignored the advise found at http://hiroshima-info.info (my
webpage) or http://www.ietf76.jp/ (host webpage) which was:


* Fly to Osaka (KIX). Take the airport train to Shin Osaka and the 
  Shinkasen from there to Hiroshima.

Lots of complaints resulted from long layovers at Narita for the one 
daily flight from there, transfers to Haneda for domestic flights, or 
even required overnight hotel stays, when all of that could have been 
(mostly) avoided.

The inter-modal change seems to be a huge obstacle for Americans, it's 
a fact of life for Europe and Asia. Not sure what we can do about that
beyond taking more places off our potential venue list.

Ole


Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: ole@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo


On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 5:47 PM -0400 8/3/11, Ted Lemon wrote:
> 
> > I don't mean to criticize excessively, but the complaints about how hard
> > Hiroshima was to get to pretty much blew my mind.   It was not only easy,
> > but pleasant.   The people who had trouble were the ones who refused to use
> > ground transportation, even though ground transportation in Japan is much
> > better than air transport.
> 
> I think this statement minimizes the problems some people had, and unfairly
> makes it all their own fault.  Personally, I did a lot of research, but to
> avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to take a once-a-day domestic connection,
> then a taxi, then a train, then another taxi.  It wasn't easy or pleasant, and
> relied heavily on ground transport.  Relying entirely on ground transport
> would have added another day.  (I admit I could also have taken a different
> carrier which had different destinations, but that meant forgoing an upgrade
> plus other problems.)
> 
> >     Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning.   If you do the
> > homework, which mostly involves asking people who know the area what to do,
> > you get there, and it's not a problem.   If you don't, you have a difficult
> > time.
> 
> I disagree and find the statement patronizing.  Doing research can allow one
> to attempt to select the best option, but that may still involve problems.
> 
> > I would complain pretty loudly if I had to go to Dallas for every
> > IETF-there's no food, and you have to rent a car, because there is no public
> > transport, and the hotels are all out in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> -- 
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> To travel is to discover that everyone is wrong about other countries.
>    --Aldous Huxley
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> 
> 

From ole@cisco.com  Sun Aug  7 21:30:36 2011
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From: Ole Jacobsen 
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+1 execpt for the fact that it's called Kansai, not Kansei :-)
and outlined with lots of detail at http://hiroshima-info.info

(I should have signed up for Google ads, it got lots of hits :-)

ole


Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: ole@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo


On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Randy Bush wrote:

> > I did a lot of research, but to avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to
> > take a once-a-day domestic connection, then a taxi, then a train, then
> > another taxi.
> 
> the way to avoid an overnight in nrt is to not fly there.  same for
> about 1,000 other airports enroute hiroshima.  you did the equivalent of
> flying to jfk to get to chicago.
> 
> kansei is the major international airport that serves hiroshima.
> despite living in tokyo, i flew from doing biz in the states to kansei
> and then the easy train and then the free streetcar to the venue.  was
> easy.
> 
> as ted said:
> 
> >> Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning.  If you do the
> >> homework, which mostly involves asking people who know the area what
> >> to do, you get there, and it's not a problem.  If you don't, you have
> >> a difficult time.
> 
> randy
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> 

From mellon@fugue.com  Sun Aug  7 21:42:17 2011
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On Aug 8, 2011, at 12:24 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> Lots of complaints resulted from long layovers at Narita for the one=20=

> daily flight from there, transfers to Haneda for domestic flights, or=20=

> even required overnight hotel stays, when all of that could have been=20=

> (mostly) avoided.

I needed the day for jet lag, so eliminating the overnight in Tokyo =
seemed like an unnecessary optimization.   But I'm probably not at the =
center of the bell curve: I simply can't imagine why anybody would pass =
up the chance to stay a night in Tokyo.


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Lots of =
complaints resulted from long layovers at Narita for the one 
daily flight from =
there, transfers to Haneda for domestic flights, or 
even required overnight =
hotel stays, when all of that could have been 
(mostly) =
avoided.
I needed the day for jet lag, =
so eliminating the overnight in Tokyo seemed like an unnecessary =
optimization.   But I'm probably not at the center of the bell =
curve: I simply can't imagine why anybody would pass up the chance to =
stay a night in Tokyo.

=

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From randy@psg.com  Sun Aug  7 22:10:15 2011
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> +1 execpt for the fact that it's called Kansai, not Kansei :-)

sorry, coffee deficit

randy

From kpfleming@digium.com  Mon Aug  8 04:56:43 2011
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On 08/07/2011 11:42 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Aug 8, 2011, at 12:24 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>> Lots of complaints resulted from long layovers at Narita for the one
>> daily flight from there, transfers to Haneda for domestic flights, or
>> even required overnight hotel stays, when all of that could have been
>> (mostly) avoided.
>
> I needed the day for jet lag, so eliminating the overnight in Tokyo
> seemed like an unnecessary optimization. But I'm probably not at the
> center of the bell curve: I simply can't imagine why anybody would pass
> up the chance to stay a night in Tokyo.

IETF 76 was my first IETF meeting, and also my first trip to Asia, so I 
enjoyed having an overnight in Tokyo and some time to spend in the city 
before taking the Shinkansen to Hiroshima. It did help with the jet lag 
as well.

-- 
Kevin P. Fleming
Digium, Inc. | Director of Software Technologies
Jabber: kfleming@digium.com | SIP: kpfleming@digium.com | Skype: kpfleming
445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA
Check us out at www.digium.com & www.asterisk.org

From rg+ietf@qualcomm.com  Mon Aug  8 08:28:57 2011
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Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 08:24:15 -0700
To: Ole Jacobsen 
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At 9:24 PM -0700 8/7/11, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

>  way too many folks ignored the advise found at http://hiroshima-info.info (my
>  webpage) or http://www.ietf76.jp/ (host webpage) which was:
>
>  * Fly to Osaka (KIX). Take the airport train to Shin Osaka and the
>    Shinkasen from there to Hiroshima.
>
>  Lots of complaints resulted from long layovers at Narita for the one
>  daily flight from there, transfers to Haneda for domestic flights, or
>  even required overnight hotel stays, when all of that could have been
>  (mostly) avoided.

Flying to Osaka required switching carriers and giving up an upgrade.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Seriousness is the only refuge for the shallow.  --Oscar Wilde

From ole@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 08:31:42 2011
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From: Ole Jacobsen 
To: Randall Gellens 
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All of which proves once again that a hub to you is not a hub to me 
and route for you is not a route for me and it's not possible for
the IAOC to optimize for ALL of these variables.

Ole

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Randall Gellens wrote:


> Flying to Osaka required switching carriers and giving up an upgrade.
> 


From joel.halpern@ericsson.com  Mon Aug  8 09:57:02 2011
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From: Joel Halpern 
To: Randy Bush , Randall Gellens 
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For the Hiroshima meeting, I understood that Kansai was the better airport.=
  However, when I went to make the reservations, I could not get those flig=
hts.  (Yes, I was late making reservations.  My office often adds meetings =
late, so I tend to have to book late.)   As such, I ended up with a pretty =
unpleasant outbound routing, and due to flight delays I ended up spending t=
he night in a hotel near Narita, and then taking a bus to get my plane to t=
he Osaka local airport, to take a taxi to the train, ...)

Hiroshima was a lovely city, and an effective venue.  But please, do not cl=
aim it was easy to get to.=20

Yorus,
Joel

PS: For those interested in unusual flight delays, the delay was caused by =
the flight from IAD needign to stop in Chicago to pick up an extra pilot, a=
s one had called in sick.

-----Original Message-----
From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On=
 Behalf Of Randy Bush
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 9:21 PM
To: Randall Gellens
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!

> I did a lot of research, but to avoid an overnight in NRT/TKO had to=20
> take a once-a-day domestic connection, then a taxi, then a train, then=20
> another taxi.

the way to avoid an overnight in nrt is to not fly there.  same for about 1=
,000 other airports enroute hiroshima.  you did the equivalent of flying to=
 jfk to get to chicago.

kansei is the major international airport that serves hiroshima.
despite living in tokyo, i flew from doing biz in the states to kansei and =
then the easy train and then the free streetcar to the venue.  was easy.

as ted said:

>> Traveling to IETF requires a bit of advance planning.  If you do the=20
>> homework, which mostly involves asking people who know the area what=20
>> to do, you get there, and it's not a problem.  If you don't, you have=20
>> a difficult time.

randy
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
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--000e0cd379a65c18c804aa0221f8
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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz wrote:

> The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.
>
> The IETF is a global organization. It is important to
> have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure
> that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.
>

+1.

This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of non-North-American(NA)
participants, especially those from the unprevileged corner of Far East
Asia, had to go through for so many meetings until now, and that with
considerably lower budgets than elsewhere.

Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric
criteria, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt
whether IETF can continue to claim it's a global international community,
not any more NA-centric one.

-- 
DY

--000e0cd379a65c18c804aa0221f8
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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz <jakob.heitz@ericsson.com> wrote:


The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.



The IETF is a global organization. It is important to

have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure

that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.

+1.

This thread reminds me of the strugg=
les that a lot of non-North-American(NA) participants, especially those fro=
m the unprevileged corner of Far East Asia, had to go through for so many m=
eetings until now, and that with considerably lower budgets than elsewhere.=




Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric cr=
iteria, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt =
whether IETF can continue to claim it's a global international communit=
y, not any more NA-centric one.




-- 
DY


--000e0cd379a65c18c804aa0221f8--

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At 8:32 AM -0700 8/8/11, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

>  All of which proves once again that a hub to you is not a hub to me
>  and route for you is not a route for me and it's not possible for
>  the IAOC to optimize for ALL of these variables.

Of course.  No one could expect the IAOC to optimize for everything 
or everyone.

But, two points:

- In general, locations with greater air service diversity will be 
better for more people than those without.

- It's not fair to say "Anyone who found it problematic or 
inconvenient to get to x was just too lazy or stupid to follow the 
advice/instructions."  (Especially when the advice dictates which 
airline to choose.)

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Only in a police state is the job of a policeman easy.
                                       --Orson Welles

From adam@nostrum.com  Mon Aug  8 11:20:27 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz  > wrote:
>
>     The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.
>
>     The IETF is a global organization. It is important to
>     have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure
>     that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.
>
>
> +1.
>
> This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of 
> non-North-American(NA) participants, especially those from the 
> unprevileged corner of Far East Asia, had to go through for so many 
> meetings until now, and that with considerably lower budgets than 
> elsewhere.
>
> Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric 
> criteria, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I 
> doubt whether IETF can continue to claim it's a global international 
> community, not any more NA-centric one.
>

Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a convenient 
strawman that is very easy to rip apart. However, if you read the thread 
carefully, you would find scant evidence that anyone agitating for 
"major hubs" actually means "major North American hubs." (In fact, you 
would notice that the venue actually under discussion is... umm... in 
North America).

Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of 
travel to non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection of 
continents. They aren't even marginally related, and it's insulting to 
insinuate otherwise.

/a

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    On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
    
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz <jakob.heitz@ericsson.com>
      wrote:

      

        

          The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.

          

          The IETF is a global organization. It is important to

          have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure

          that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the
          time.

        

        


          +1.

          

          This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of
          non-North-American(NA) participants, especially those from the
          unprevileged corner of Far East Asia, had to go through for so
          many meetings until now, and that with considerably lower
          budgets than elsewhere.

          

          Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing
          NA-centric criteria, and especially in this era of emerging
          new market regions, I doubt whether IETF can continue to claim
          it's a global international community, not any more NA-centric
          one.

        

      

      

    

    

    Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a convenient
    strawman that is very easy to rip apart. However, if you read the
    thread carefully, you would find scant evidence that anyone
    agitating for "major hubs" actually means "major North American
    hubs." (In fact, you would notice that the venue actually under
    discussion is... umm... in North America).

    

    Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of
    travel to non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection of
    continents. They aren't even marginally related, and it's insulting
    to insinuate otherwise.

    

    /a

  


--------------030705000104020307030308--

From shtsuchi@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 11:28:23 2011
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Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 03:28:41 +0900
From: Shishio Tsuchiya 
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All of materials does not available now.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html

Who knows new url?

Regards,
-Shishio

From jmpolk@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 11:30:04 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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At 10:26 AM 8/4/2011, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

>So there is obviously no point in doing surveys since Joe Touch knows
>exactly why people might prefer one location over another. Sheesh.
>
>For the record, I do not believe we asked any questions about
>"tourism" in the survey, but you know best, Joe!

no, but to be fair, since QC is the capital of Quebec, most of us 
(likely) assumed it wouldn't be a small regional airport (such as it 
is). Maybe it was just me, but I didn't research this aspect before 
choosing a site, nor do I remember anyone offering the stark 
differences in travel between Van and QC in the survey. Had this 
airport facility/access aspect been told to us *when* we were asked 
to "vote", I predict the vote would have turned out differently. At a 
minimum, no one could have said "we weren't warned about this in 
choosing QC" at this stage of the game.

In the end, Van is a major international airport, and QC was at 
minimum a secondary city. That part should have been front and center 
when given the choice in the first place.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

James



>Ole
>
>
>Ole J. Jacobsen
>Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
>Cisco Systems
>Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
>E-mail: ole@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
>Skype: organdemo
>
>
>On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Joe Touch wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 8/4/2011 8:05 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> > >
> > > You said:
> > >
> > > "Put simply, please leave us out of your vacation plans."
> > >
> > > Please define "your" in the above statement. The selection was made
> > > (partially) based on an IETF community survey.
> >
> > Any response that indicates a preference based on vacation plans is from
> > someone in the "YOUR" bin.
> >
> > "US" are the rest of us who come to get work done, who appreciate 
> a reasonable
> > threshold of services, but who don't vote based on side-trips, canoeing,
> > biking, soccer, etc.
> >
> > > Your statement reminds me a bit of the arguments heard prior to IETF
> > > in China. "We don't believe in their Internet policies, we shouldn't
> > > go there!" Nice slap in the face to the several hundred IETF
> > > participants from China.
> >
> > Hmmm. And "we don't like US immigration policies, we shouldn't go 
> there" (or
> > should go to Canada in preference) hasn't been a multi-year slap on several
> > hundred IETF participants from the US?
> >
> > There are many factors that determine whether people attend. IMO, it's
> > reasonable to consider issues that affect those who earnestly 
> want to come to
> > do work - including visa issues, legal constraints on attendees 
> (as with the
> > first attempt at China). But there's little we can or should do 
> about issues
> > of personal preference (not liking China's Internet policies, not 
> liking many
> > countries fingerprinting, etc.).
> >
> > Issues of pure personal preference - e.g., vacations, local entertainment,
> > etc. - have no business (literally) in affecting the site selection of a
> > business meeting.
> >
> > Joe
> >
>_______________________________________________
>81attendees mailing list
>81attendees@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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From: Donald Eastlake 
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:30:46 -0400
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That URL still works for me.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street
=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com



On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Shishio Tsuchiya  wrote=
:
> All of materials does not available now.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
>
> Who knows new url?
>
> Regards,
> -Shishio
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>

From dykim6@gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 11:32:20 2011
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Who said 'ethno'?

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Adam Roach  wrote:

>  On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz wrote:
>
>> The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.
>>
>> The IETF is a global organization. It is important to
>> have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure
>> that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.
>>
>
> +1.
>
> This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of
> non-North-American(NA) participants, especially those from the unprevileged
> corner of Far East Asia, had to go through for so many meetings until now,
> and that with considerably lower budgets than elsewhere.
>
> Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric
> criteria, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt
> whether IETF can continue to claim it's a global international community,
> not any more NA-centric one.
>
>
> Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a convenient strawman
> that is very easy to rip apart. However, if you read the thread carefully,
> you would find scant evidence that anyone agitating for "major hubs"
> actually means "major North American hubs." (In fact, you would notice that
> the venue actually under discussion is... umm... in North America).
>
> Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of travel
> to non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection of continents.
> They aren't even marginally related, and it's insulting to insinuate
> otherwise.
>
> /a
>



-- 
DY

--000e0cd379aa69332204aa02acc5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Who said 'ethno'?

On Tue, Aug 9, =
2011 at 3:20 AM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:



 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
    
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz <=
span dir=3D"ltr"><jakob.heitz@ericsson.com>
      wrote:

      

        

          The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.

          

          The IETF is a global organization. It is important to

          have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure

          that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the
          time.

        

        


          +1.

          

          This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of
          non-North-American(NA) participants, especially those from the
          unprevileged corner of Far East Asia, had to go through for so
          many meetings until now, and that with considerably lower
          budgets than elsewhere.

          

          Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing
          NA-centric criteria, and especially in this era of emerging
          new market regions, I doubt whether IETF can continue to claim
          it's a global international community, not any more NA-centri=
c
          one.

        

      

      

    

    

    Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a conven=
ient
    strawman that is very easy to rip apart. However, if you read the
    thread carefully, you would find scant evidence that anyone
    agitating for "major hubs" actually means "major North A=
merican
    hubs." (In fact, you would notice that the venue actually under
    discussion is... umm... in North America).

    

    Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of
    travel to non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection of
    continents. They aren't even marginally related, and it's insul=
ting
    to insinuate otherwise.

    

    /a

  






-- 
DY


--000e0cd379aa69332204aa02acc5--

From shtsuchi@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 11:37:18 2011
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Donald
Can you get material also?

Regards,
-Shishio

Donald Eastlake wrote:
> That URL still works for me.
> 
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =============================
>   Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>   155 Beaver Street
>   Milford, MA 01757 USA
>   d3e3e3@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Shishio Tsuchiya  wrote:
>> All of materials does not available now.
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
>>
>> Who knows new url?
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Shishio
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>
> 



From mellon@fugue.com  Mon Aug  8 11:39:21 2011
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On Aug 8, 2011, at 2:32 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
> Who said 'ethno'?

Indeed.   If I lived in Korea, I would probably feel the same way.   =
It's a very long journey, and it's _always_ going to be a very long =
journey for somebody=97Seoul was really hard for me, but I'm happy we =
went.   The only way to make this problem go away would be to stop =
having in-person meetings, which doesn't seem to be a popular option.


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Who said =
'ethno'?

Indeed.   If I lived =
in Korea, I would probably feel the same way.   It's a very long =
journey, and it's _always_ going to be a very long journey for =
somebody=97Seoul was really hard for me, but I'm happy we went.   =
The only way to make this problem go away would be to stop having =
in-person meetings, which doesn't seem to be a popular =
option.

=

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From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Mon Aug  8 11:39:41 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Dae Young KIM , Jakob Heitz 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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This thread wasn't really about meeting location so I changed the subject.

Just FYI - I've attended IETF on and off since 1992.  Attendance then had j=
ust broken 200.

\begin{aside}  % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notation =
(only confuses readers)

Up until the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded by =
the US NSF (National Science Foundation), including much of the (small amou=
nt of) research and education networking in Europe and the Far East Asia.  =
Not surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, mostly US.

Meetings began to be held in Europe as well as North America in the early 1=
990s when there was significant activity in Europe that was funded by Europ=
eans, a strong growth in European participation in IETF, and willing sponso=
rs.

The Internet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global t=
hing and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.  We really cou=
ld consider where the majority of participants come from, which is not from=
 Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a signifi=
cant number of participants.

\end{aside}

I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, but =
with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa since they a=
re more underprivileged than any other part of the world that we could expe=
ct participation from.  So far that has not happened probably because we wo=
uld expect very few local participants and we may not be able to find a spo=
nsor.

There have been suggestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but A=
FAIK no sponsors.  Travel logistics would likely be even more challenging, =
but as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reasonably accessible, an=
d was safe to travel to, I'm sure IAOC would strongly consider it.

I don't think IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.  There are many f=
actors for them to consider.

Curtis

From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On=
 Behalf Of Dae Young KIM
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:54 AM
To: Jakob Heitz
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz > wrote:
The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.

The IETF is a global organization. It is important to
have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure
that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.

+1.

This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of non-North-American(NA=
) participants, especially those from the unprevileged corner of Far East A=
sia, had to go through for so many meetings until now, and that with consid=
erably lower budgets than elsewhere.

Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric criter=
ia, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt whet=
her IETF can continue to claim it's a global international community, not a=
ny more NA-centric one.

--
DY

--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB076127BFSVEXDBPROD1infi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











This thread wasn’t really about meeting location so I =
changed the subject.


 


Just FYI - I’ve attended IETF on and off since 1992.&n=
bsp; Attendance then had just broken 200.


 


\begin{aside}  % xml notation can confuse software so u=
sing latex notation (only confuses readers)


 


Up until the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure=
 was funded by the US NSF (National Science Foundation), including much of =
the (small amount of)
 research and education networking in Europe and the Far East Asia.  N=
ot surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, mostly US.<=
/span>


 


Meetings began to be held in Europe as well as North America=
 in the early 1990s when there was significant activity in Europe that was =
funded by Europeans,
 a strong growth in European participation in IETF, and willing sponsors.


 


The Internet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very =
much a global thing and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.=
  We really could consider
 where the majority of participants come from, which is not from Far East A=
sia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a significant number=
 of participants.


 


\end{aside}


 


I’m not arguing that we should not hold meetings in di=
verse locations, but with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings i=
n Africa since they are more
 underprivileged than any other part of the world that we could expect part=
icipation from.  So far that has not happened probably because we woul=
d expect very few local participants and we may not be able to find a spons=
or.


 


There have been suggestions that we meet in South America an=
d Africa, but AFAIK no sponsors.  Travel logistics would likely be eve=
n more challenging, but
 as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reasonably accessible, and w=
as safe to travel to, I’m sure IAOC would strongly consider it.<=
/o:p>


 


I don’t think IAOC has been unfair in its site selecti=
on.  There are many factors for them to consider.

 


Curtis


 








From: 81attend=
ees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:54 AM

To: Jakob Heitz

Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!=







 


On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz <jakob.heitz@ericsson.com> wr=
ote:






The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, gu=
ys.



The IETF is a global organization. It is important to

have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure

that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.










+1.



This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of non-North-American(NA=
) participants, especially those from the unprevileged corner of Far East A=
sia, had to go through for so many meetings until now, and that with consid=
erably lower budgets than elsewhere.



Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric criter=
ia, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt whet=
her IETF can continue to claim it's a global international community, not a=
ny more NA-centric one.








-- 

DY








--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB076127BFSVEXDBPROD1infi_--

From petithug@acm.org  Mon Aug  8 11:40:05 2011
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/08/2011 11:37 AM, Shishio Tsuchiya wrote:
> Donald
> Can you get material also?
> 
> Regards,
> -Shishio
> 
> Donald Eastlake wrote:
>> That URL still works for me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =============================
>>   Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>   155 Beaver Street
>>   Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>   d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Shishio Tsuchiya  wrote:
>>> All of materials does not available now.
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
>>>
>>> Who knows new url?
>>>

All the links I tried in this page returns a 404 for me.

- -- 
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Professional email: petithug@acm.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
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From amorris@amsl.com  Mon Aug  8 11:41:40 2011
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From: Alexa Morris 
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I just experienced the same 404 error, and we are looking into this  
right now.

Alexa

On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:40 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 08/08/2011 11:37 AM, Shishio Tsuchiya wrote:
>> Donald
>> Can you get material also?
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Shishio
>>
>> Donald Eastlake wrote:
>>> That URL still works for me.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Donald
>>> =============================
>>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>>  155 Beaver Street
>>>  Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Shishio  
>>> Tsuchiya  wrote:
>>>> All of materials does not available now.
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
>>>>
>>>> Who knows new url?
>>>>
>
> All the links I tried in this page returns a 404 for me.
>
> - --
> Marc Petit-Huguenin
> Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
> Professional email: petithug@acm.org
> Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
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> _______________________________________________
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> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>

-----------
Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF
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Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001
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From johnl@iecc.com  Mon Aug  8 11:43:14 2011
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>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html

That page is fine, but all the links on it are dead.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

From lnovikov@mitre.org  Mon Aug  8 11:46:35 2011
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To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:46:59 -0400
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Looks like http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/ only has a handful of=
 slides left.

Lev

From randy@qualcomm.com  Mon Aug  8 11:46:41 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] The perennial air connection/ hub airport discussion
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At 1:30 PM -0500 8/8/11, James M. Polk wrote:

>  In the end, Van is a major international airport, and QC was at 
> minimum a secondary city. That part should have been front and 
> center when given the choice in the first place.
>
>  But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

A number of people agree, and made this point at the time (if I 
recall correctly).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way.
    --Bertrand Russell

From dykim6@gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 12:13:16 2011
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From: Dae Young KIM 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 04:13:13 +0900
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To: Ted Lemon 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:39 AM, Ted Lemon  wrote:

> On Aug 8, 2011, at 2:32 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
>
> Who said 'ethno'?
>
>
> Indeed.   If I lived in Korea, I would probably feel the same way.   It's=
 a
> very long journey, and it's _always_ going to be a very long journey for
> somebody=97Seoul was really hard for me, but I'm happy we went.   The onl=
y way
> to make this problem go away would be to stop having in-person meetings,
> which doesn't seem to be a popular option.
>
>
Not to mean to offend anybody, but let's do some exercise.

Hotels in Asian Hub cities, like Beijing, Tokyo, and Seoul are expensive, a=
s
was noted as a reason making it difficult to come there. Say, US or EU (wit=
h
high average income level or rich company) pay $300 per night.

Would this pain be more unbearable than that CN or KR people (with much
lower company budget or income level) having to pay $200 per night in NA or
EU?

(BTW, since when has this been? In the past, the reverse was true...)

What's so wrong about some US friends sometimes having to expend more than
they can afford when the other parties have had to do the same for most of
the times?

Or what's so wrong about US friends sometimes having to make extra hop loca=
l
flights in Asian countries for cheaper venues when multiple hops to many US
and EU cities from NEA cities are a norm?

If it's wrong.. then, perhaps the only remaining logic is that the IETF
meeting is simply such a prestigious meeting that whoever has to suffer has
to suffer.

Hope more people start thinking the continent they're living is not the end
of the world. The globe is much larger out there and diverse.

--=20
DY

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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:39 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:



On Aug 8, 2011, at 2:32 PM, D=
ae Young KIM wrote:
Who said 'ethno'?




Indeed. =A0 If I lived in Korea, I would=
 probably feel the same way. =A0 It's a very long journey, and it's=
 _always_ going to be a very long journey for somebody=97Seoul was really h=
ard for me, but I'm happy we went. =A0 The only way to make this proble=
m go away would be to stop having in-person meetings, which doesn't see=
m to be a popular option.





Not to mean to offend anybody, =
but let's do some exercise.

Hotels in Asian Hub cities, like Bei=
jing, Tokyo, and Seoul are expensive, as was noted as a reason making it di=
fficult to come there. Say, US or EU (with high average income level or ric=
h company) pay $300 per night.



Would this pain be more unbearable than that CN or KR people (with much=
 lower company budget or income level) having to pay $200 per night in NA o=
r EU?

(BTW, since when has this been? In the past, the reverse was t=
rue...)



What's so wrong about some US friends sometimes having to expend mo=
re than they can afford when the other parties have had to do the same for =
most of the times?

Or what's so wrong about US friends sometimes=
 having to make extra hop local flights in Asian countries for cheaper venu=
es when multiple hops to many US and EU cities from NEA cities are a norm?<=
br>


If it's wrong.. then, perhaps the only remaining logic is that the =
IETF meeting is simply such a prestigious meeting that whoever has to suffe=
r has to suffer.

Hope more people start thinking the continent they&=
#39;re living is not the end of the world. The globe is much larger out the=
re and diverse.



-- 
DY


--000e0cd379aa448a3e04aa033e0f--

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From: Dae Young KIM 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Hi, Curtis,

I've been attending many, of course not all, IETF meeting since mid 90s, so
I do know the history you've described.

You said:

   "We really could consider where the majority of participants come from,
which is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to
regions with a significant number of participants."

A good point, for minimization of the total cost/pain.

But, you went to far when you picked Africa as an example, although I start
recognizing more about South American activities.

Take Far East Asia, more specifically. If you don't disagree too far, China=
,
and India are growing both in terms of markets and technical contributions.
(I'd reserve Japan, for it has already been far ahead.) And Corea is
struggling to catch up with opportunities in the Internet, although it has
had partial success in different business sectors.

Talking about the number of participants, if the meeting would be held
nearer to these countries, for example(just for an example for developing m=
y
logic, if there's any logic), their participants would be much higher than
otherwise.

I'm not sure if some people remember that for several years and meetings,
Corea would rank within five top countries as IETF participants, and that
mostly in NA and sometimes EU countries. (There haven only two JP meetings,
one CN, and one KR meeting out of so many IETF meetings, you know).
Sometimes, nearly 100 from Corea alone, from so small a country.

Now, it's China sending almost 150 people to every meeting, if I'm not
wrong.

If the enthusiasm is such high from this region, their participation would
grow much higher if they'd be given chance to host meetings near their
region.

OK, the number is not all, you have to do technical contribution. This agai=
n
would grow if there are exposed to more opportunities.

I mean.. the dominance of participation partly is affected by the continent=
s
where venues are placed.

It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA or EU,
that there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a smaller portion.
On the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this region.

Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to be
more exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or potential
market grow or even technical contribution.

If one would say, we're larger, so we'll stick here around.... then, we're
not maximizing our potential product.

Well, by now, I'm losing my emotion to continue my non-logic.

Since when has the human history been of such mutual respect and
consideration? It's almost futile to talk about this non-secular argument.

So, be it. Sufferers would suffer, goers would go. No problem.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Curtis Villamizar
wrote:

>  This thread wasn=92t really about meeting location so I changed the
> subject.****
>
> ** **
>
> Just FYI - I=92ve attended IETF on and off since 1992.  Attendance then h=
ad
> just broken 200.****
>
> ** **
>
> \begin{aside}  % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notatio=
n
> (only confuses readers)****
>
> ** **
>
> Up until the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded b=
y
> the US NSF (National Science Foundation), including much of the (small
> amount of) research and education networking in Europe and the Far East
> Asia.  Not surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, mostly US.**=
*
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Meetings began to be held in Europe as well as North America in the early
> 1990s when there was significant activity in Europe that was funded by
> Europeans, a strong growth in European participation in IETF, and willing
> sponsors.****
>
> ** **
>
> The Internet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global
> thing and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.  We really
> could consider where the majority of participants come from, which is not
> from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a
> significant number of participants.****
>
> ** **
>
> \end{aside}****
>
> ** **
>
> I=92m not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, =
but
> with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa since they
> are more underprivileged than any other part of the world that we could
> expect participation from.  So far that has not happened probably because=
 we
> would expect very few local participants and we may not be able to find a
> sponsor.****
>
> ** **
>
> There have been suggestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but
> AFAIK no sponsors.  Travel logistics would likely be even more challengin=
g,
> but as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reasonably accessible, =
and
> was safe to travel to, I=92m sure IAOC would strongly consider it.****
>
> ** **
>
> I don=92t think IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.  There are ma=
ny
> factors for them to consider.****
>
> ** **
>
> Curtis
>

--=20
DY

--000e0cd6cf84c5de5e04aa03be1c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Curtis,

I've been attending many, of course not all, IETF me=
eting since mid 90s, so I do know the history you've described.

=
You said:



=A0=A0 "We really could consider
 where the majority of participants come from, which is not from Far=20
East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a=20
significant number of participants."

A good point, for minimiza=
tion of the total cost/pain.

But, you went to far when you picked Af=
rica as an example, although I start recognizing more about South American =
activities.



Take Far East Asia, more specifically. If you don't disagree too fa=
r, China, and India are growing both in terms of markets and technical cont=
ributions. (I'd reserve Japan, for it has already been far ahead.) And =
Corea is struggling to catch up with opportunities in the Internet, althoug=
h it has had partial success in different business sectors.



Talking about the number of participants, if the meeting would be held =
nearer to these countries, for example(just for an example for developing m=
y logic, if there's any logic), their participants would be much higher=
 than otherwise.



I'm not sure if some people remember that for several years and mee=
tings, Corea would rank within five top countries as IETF participants, and=
 that mostly in NA and sometimes EU countries. (There haven only two JP mee=
tings, one CN, and one KR meeting out of so many IETF meetings, you know). =
Sometimes, nearly 100 from Corea alone, from so small a country.



Now, it's China sending almost 150 people to every meeting, if I=
9;m not wrong. 

If the enthusiasm is such high from this region, the=
ir participation would grow much higher if they'd be given chance to ho=
st meetings near their region. 



OK, the number is not all, you have to do technical contribution. This =
again would grow if there are exposed to more opportunities.

I mean.=
. the dominance of participation partly is affected by the continents where=
 venues are placed.



It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA o=
r EU, that there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a sma=
ller portion. On the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this re=
gion.



Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to =
be more exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or potenti=
al market grow or even technical contribution.

If one would say, we&=
#39;re larger, so we'll stick here around.... then, we're not maxim=
izing our potential product.



Well, by now, I'm losing my emotion to continue my non-logic.
Since when has the human history been of such mutual respect and consider=
ation? It's almost futile to talk about this non-secular argument.



So, be it. Sufferers would suffer, goers would go. No problem.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:40 =
AM, Curtis Villamizar <cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:














This =
thread wasn=92t really about meeting location so I changed the subject.<=
/u>


=A0


Just =
FYI - I=92ve attended IETF on and off since 1992.=A0 Attendance then had ju=
st broken 200.


=A0


\begi=
n{aside}=A0 % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notation (on=
ly confuses readers)


=A0


Up un=
til the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded by the U=
S NSF (National Science Foundation), including much of the (small amount of=
)
 research and education networking in Europe and the Far East Asia.=A0 Not =
surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, mostly US.<=
/span>


=A0


Meeti=
ngs began to be held in Europe as well as North America in the early 1990s =
when there was significant activity in Europe that was funded by Europeans,
 a strong growth in European participation in IETF, and willing sponsors.


=A0


The I=
nternet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global thing =
and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.=A0 We really could =
consider
 where the majority of participants come from, which is not from Far East A=
sia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a significant number=
 of participants.


=A0


\end{=
aside}


=A0


I=92m=
 not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, but wit=
h your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa since they are =
more
 underprivileged than any other part of the world that we could expect part=
icipation from.=A0 So far that has not happened probably because we would e=
xpect very few local participants and we may not be able to find a sponsor.=





=A0


There=
 have been suggestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but AFAIK =
no sponsors.=A0 Travel logistics would likely be even more challenging, but
 as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reasonably accessible, and w=
as safe to travel to, I=92m sure IAOC would strongly consider it.=



=A0


I don=
=92t think IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.=A0 There are many fa=
ctors for them to consider.


=A0


Curti=
s

-- 
DY<=
br>

--000e0cd6cf84c5de5e04aa03be1c--

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 12:56:01 2011
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Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:56:06 -0400
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To: Shishio Tsuchiya 
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No, as with others, I can get the meeting material page but not the
materials themselves...

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street
=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com



2011/8/8 Shishio Tsuchiya :
> Donald
> Can you get material also?
>
> Regards,
> -Shishio
>
> Donald Eastlake wrote:
>> That URL still works for me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =A0 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>> =A0 155 Beaver Street
>> =A0 Milford, MA 01757 USA
>> =A0 d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Shishio Tsuchiya =A0=
wrote:
>>> All of materials does not available now.
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
>>>
>>> Who knows new url?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> -Shishio
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 81attendees mailing list
>>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>>>
>>
>
>
>

From randy@psg.com  Mon Aug  8 12:59:04 2011
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> For the Hiroshima meeting, I understood that Kansai was the better
> airport.  However, when I went to make the reservations, I could not
> get those flights.
> ..
> Hiroshima was a lovely city, and an effective venue.  But please, do
> not claim it was easy to get to.

few things are easy to get to when you are late

randy

From shtsuchi@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 13:04:14 2011
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Umm..
I found most of materials is below.
http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/81/slides/

-Shishio

Novikov, Lev wrote:
> Looks like http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/ only has a handful of slides left.
> 
> Lev
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> 



From adam@nostrum.com  Mon Aug  8 13:13:51 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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Perhaps you meant something different than that by "diversity," but it 
doesn't change the fact that you're bringing the red herring of 
geography into a conversation about reachability.

/a

On 8/8/11 1:32 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
> Who said 'ethno'?
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Adam Roach  > wrote:
>
>     On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
>>     On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz
>>     > wrote:
>>
>>         The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.
>>
>>         The IETF is a global organization. It is important to
>>         have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure
>>         that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.
>>
>>
>>     +1.
>>
>>     This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of
>>     non-North-American(NA) participants, especially those from the
>>     unprevileged corner of Far East Asia, had to go through for so
>>     many meetings until now, and that with considerably lower budgets
>>     than elsewhere.
>>
>>     Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing
>>     NA-centric criteria, and especially in this era of emerging new
>>     market regions, I doubt whether IETF can continue to claim it's a
>>     global international community, not any more NA-centric one.
>>
>
>     Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a convenient
>     strawman that is very easy to rip apart. However, if you read the
>     thread carefully, you would find scant evidence that anyone
>     agitating for "major hubs" actually means "major North American
>     hubs." (In fact, you would notice that the venue actually under
>     discussion is... umm... in North America).
>
>     Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of
>     travel to non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection
>     of continents. They aren't even marginally related, and it's
>     insulting to insinuate otherwise.
>
>     /a
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> DY


--------------090201050008060708090203
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    Perhaps you meant something different than that by "diversity," but
    it doesn't change the fact that you're bringing the red herring of
    geography into a conversation about reachability.

    

    /a

    

    On 8/8/11 1:32 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
    
Who said 'ethno'?

      

      
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Adam
        Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
        wrote:

        

          

            

              
 On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
                
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM,
                  Jakob Heitz <jakob.heitz@ericsson.com>
                  wrote:

                  

                    

                      The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing,
                      guys.

                      

                      The IETF is a global organization. It is important
                      to

                      have meetings in diverse parts of the world to
                      make sure

                      that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some
                      of the time.

                    

                    


                      +1.

                      

                      This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot
                      of non-North-American(NA) participants, especially
                      those from the unprevileged corner of Far East
                      Asia, had to go through for so many meetings until
                      now, and that with considerably lower budgets than
                      elsewhere.

                      

                      Without considerations for diversity, and with
                      continuing NA-centric criteria, and especially in
                      this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt
                      whether IETF can continue to claim it's a global
                      international community, not any more NA-centric
                      one.

                    

                  

                  

                

                

              

            

            Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a
            convenient strawman that is very easy to rip apart. However,
            if you read the thread carefully, you would find scant
            evidence that anyone agitating for "major hubs" actually
            means "major North American hubs." (In fact, you would
            notice that the venue actually under discussion is... umm...
            in North America).

            

            Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the
            ease of travel to non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on
            the selection of continents. They aren't even marginally
            related, and it's insulting to insinuate otherwise.

             

              /a

            

        

      

      

      

      

      -- 

      DY

    

    

  


--------------090201050008060708090203--

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I interpreted it as geographic diversity.

From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On=
 Behalf Of Adam Roach
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:14 PM
To: Dae Young KIM
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!

Perhaps you meant something different than that by "diversity," but it does=
n't change the fact that you're bringing the red herring of geography into =
a conversation about reachability.

/a

On 8/8/11 1:32 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
Who said 'ethno'?
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Adam Roach > wrote:
On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz > wrote:
The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, guys.

The IETF is a global organization. It is important to
have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure
that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.

+1.

This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of non-North-American(NA=
) participants, especially those from the unprevileged corner of Far East A=
sia, had to go through for so many meetings until now, and that with consid=
erably lower budgets than elsewhere.

Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric criter=
ia, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt whet=
her IETF can continue to claim it's a global international community, not a=
ny more NA-centric one.


Throwing "North America" into this mix does make for a convenient strawman =
that is very easy to rip apart. However, if you read the thread carefully, =
you would find scant evidence that anyone agitating for "major hubs" actual=
ly means "major North American hubs." (In fact, you would notice that the v=
enue actually under discussion is... umm... in North America).

Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of travel t=
o non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection of continents. Th=
ey aren't even marginally related, and it's insulting to insinuate otherwis=
e.

/a



--
DY


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I interpreted it as geographic diversity.<=
/p>

 








From: 81attendees-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Adam Roach

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:14 PM

To: Dae Young KIM

Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!=







 


Perhaps you meant something different than that by &=
quot;diversity," but it doesn't change the fact that you're bringing t=
he red herring of geography into a conversation about reachability.



/a



On 8/8/11 1:32 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote: 


Who said 'ethno'?




On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:







On 8/8/11 12:53 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote: =



On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Jakob Heitz <jakob.heitz@erics=
son.com> wrote:






The IAOC doing a great job. Don't change a thing, gu=
ys.



The IETF is a global organization. It is important to

have meetings in diverse parts of the world to make sure

that anyone from anywhere can attend at least some of the time.










+1.



This thread reminds me of the struggles that a lot of non-North-American(NA=
) participants, especially those from the unprevileged corner of Far East A=
sia, had to go through for so many meetings until now, and that with consid=
erably lower budgets than elsewhere.



Without considerations for diversity, and with continuing NA-centric criter=
ia, and especially in this era of emerging new market regions, I doubt whet=
her IETF can continue to claim it's a global international community, not a=
ny more NA-centric one.






 


 






Throwing "North America" into this mix doe=
s make for a convenient strawman that is very easy to rip apart. However, i=
f you read the thread carefully, you would find scant evidence that anyone =
agitating for "major hubs" actually means "major
 North American hubs." (In fact, you would notice that the venue actua=
lly under discussion is... umm... in North America).



Try not to paint potentially legitimate feedback about the ease of travel t=
o non-hub cities as ethnocentric attacks on the selection of continents. Th=
ey aren't even marginally related, and it's insulting to insinuate otherwis=
e.



/a












-- 

DY


 








--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB0761284FSVEXDBPROD1infi_--

From adam@nostrum.com  Mon Aug  8 13:17:52 2011
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On 8/8/11 2:49 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
> It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA or 
> EU, that there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a smaller 
> portion. On the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this 
> region.
>
> Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to 
> be more exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or 
> potential market grow or even technical contribution.

So, for 2009, we went to San Francisco, Stockholm, and *Hiroshima*.
For 2010, we went to Anaheim, Maastricht, and *Beijing*.
For 2011, we're going to Quebec, *Taipei*, and Paris.

What is it you're asking for?

/a

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    On 8/8/11 2:49 PM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
    
It's
            not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA
            or EU, that there's little reason to go to FEA because
            they're a smaller portion. On the contrary, perhaps, the
            enthusiasm is higher in this region.

            

            Here comes the word of consideration for geographical
            diversity. Or to be more exact. chasing after the center of
            gravity of enthusiasm or potential market grow or even
            technical contribution.

          

    

    So, for 2009, we went to San Francisco, Stockholm, and *Hiroshima*.

    For 2010, we went to Anaheim, Maastricht, and *Beijing*.

    For 2011, we're going to Quebec, *Taipei*, and Paris.

    

    What is it you're asking for?

    

    /a

  


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From ole@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 13:21:57 2011
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From: Ole Jacobsen 
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Joel,

Spending the night at a hotel was one of the options listed on my 
website. The next steps would have been the airport express train
to Tokyo and the bullet train from there to Hiroshima. Not a whole
lot harder to get to than Yokohama or central Tokyo actually, but
yes, it takes more time.


Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: ole@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo


On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Joel Halpern wrote:

> For the Hiroshima meeting, I understood that Kansai was the better 
> airport.  However, when I went to make the reservations, I could not 
> get those flights.  (Yes, I was late making reservations.  My office 
> often adds meetings late, so I tend to have to book late.)  As such, 
> I ended up with a pretty unpleasant outbound routing, and due to 
> flight delays I ended up spending the night in a hotel near Narita, 
> and then taking a bus to get my plane to the Osaka local airport, to 
> take a taxi to the train, ...)
> 
> Hiroshima was a lovely city, and an effective venue.  But please, do 
> not claim it was easy to get to.
> 
> Yorus,
> Joel
> 
> PS: For those interested in unusual flight delays, the delay was 
> caused by the flight from IAD needign to stop in Chicago to pick up 
> an extra pilot, as one had called in sick.
> 
> 

From randy@psg.com  Mon Aug  8 13:22:02 2011
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>, Dae Young KIM 
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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> I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations,
> but with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa

one might be a good idea

randy

From ole@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 13:31:44 2011
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Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 13:32:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ole Jacobsen 
To: Randall Gellens 
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On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 8:32 AM -0700 8/8/11, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> 
> Of course.  No one could expect the IAOC to optimize for everything or
> everyone.
> 
> But, two points:
> 
> - In general, locations with greater air service diversity will be better for
> more people than those without.

And Kansai has plenty of service diversity last I checked, even if it 
may not be as great as Narita. The recommended option was to use 
Kansai, but it was certainly possible to take the train from Tokyo 
too (and those details were carefully outlined). The whole point here 
is that FLYING from Narita to Hiroshima is sub-optimal in many ways,
yet a bunch of people chose to do so.

> 
> - It's not fair to say "Anyone who found it problematic or inconvenient to get
> to x was just too lazy or stupid to follow the advice/instructions."
> (Especially when the advice dictates which airline to choose.)

I hope I didn't say that, but I dealt with plenty of people who had 
strong travel preferences that made things more painful. I am 
certainly NOT talking about choice of airline here, I wouldn't give
up an upgrade either in your situation.

Ole

> 
> -- 
> Randall Gellens

From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Mon Aug  8 13:34:17 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Randy Bush 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:34:41 +0000
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Cc: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>, Dae Young KIM 
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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> one might be a good idea

Which I mentioned in the next paragraph that you chopped off.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:22 PM
> To: Curtis Villamizar
> Cc: Dae Young KIM; Jakob Heitz; 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
> getting complacent? Good job!)
>=20
> > I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse
> locations,
> > but with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa
>=20
> one might be a good idea
>=20
> randy

From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Mon Aug  8 13:41:08 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Dae Young KIM 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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There are many things for IAOC to consider.  It is worth noting that attend=
ance does not seem to be affected by location:  Quebec 1127, Prague 1229, B=
eijing 1207, Maastricht 1192, Anaheim 1248, Hiroshima 1152, Stockholm 1124,=
 San Francisco 1186, Minneapolis 962, Dublin 1183, Philadelphia 1174, Vanco=
uver 1128, Chicago 1175, Prague 1193, San Diego 1245, Montreal 1257, ...

Due to the country's restrictive policy regarding filtering the CN meeting =
was problematic, though in the end it was worked out.  I heard from one of =
the volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was uncooperative with =
regard to configuring the network, requiring the staff to discover the topo=
logy due to failure to communicate as equipment was deployed and having to =
configure unfamiliar equipment with the host providing equipment but little=
 or no assistance in the equipment configuration.

My understanding is that the IAOC is having trouble getting sponsors for so=
me locations in addition to noting that hotel rates are quite high in any p=
lace in the Far East that they have considered.

I prefer to stop second guessing IAOC and let them negotiate with potential=
 sponsors and venues.

Curtis

From: dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:49 PM
To: Curtis Villamizar
Cc: Jakob Heitz; 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting c=
omplacent? Good job!)

Hi, Curtis,

I've been attending many, of course not all, IETF meeting since mid 90s, so=
 I do know the history you've described.

You said:

   "We really could consider where the majority of participants come from, =
which is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regio=
ns with a significant number of participants."

A good point, for minimization of the total cost/pain.

But, you went to far when you picked Africa as an example, although I start=
 recognizing more about South American activities.

Take Far East Asia, more specifically. If you don't disagree too far, China=
, and India are growing both in terms of markets and technical contribution=
s. (I'd reserve Japan, for it has already been far ahead.) And Corea is str=
uggling to catch up with opportunities in the Internet, although it has had=
 partial success in different business sectors.

Talking about the number of participants, if the meeting would be held near=
er to these countries, for example(just for an example for developing my lo=
gic, if there's any logic), their participants would be much higher than ot=
herwise.

I'm not sure if some people remember that for several years and meetings, C=
orea would rank within five top countries as IETF participants, and that mo=
stly in NA and sometimes EU countries. (There haven only two JP meetings, o=
ne CN, and one KR meeting out of so many IETF meetings, you know). Sometime=
s, nearly 100 from Corea alone, from so small a country.

Now, it's China sending almost 150 people to every meeting, if I'm not wron=
g.

If the enthusiasm is such high from this region, their participation would =
grow much higher if they'd be given chance to host meetings near their regi=
on.

OK, the number is not all, you have to do technical contribution. This agai=
n would grow if there are exposed to more opportunities.

I mean.. the dominance of participation partly is affected by the continent=
s where venues are placed.

It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA or EU, th=
at there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a smaller portion. On=
 the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this region.

Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to be m=
ore exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or potential m=
arket grow or even technical contribution.

If one would say, we're larger, so we'll stick here around.... then, we're =
not maximizing our potential product.

Well, by now, I'm losing my emotion to continue my non-logic.

Since when has the human history been of such mutual respect and considerat=
ion? It's almost futile to talk about this non-secular argument.

So, be it. Sufferers would suffer, goers would go. No problem.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Curtis Villamizar > wrote:
This thread wasn't really about meeting location so I changed the subject.

Just FYI - I've attended IETF on and off since 1992.  Attendance then had j=
ust broken 200.

\begin{aside}  % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notation =
(only confuses readers)

Up until the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded by =
the US NSF (National Science Foundation), including much of the (small amou=
nt of) research and education networking in Europe and the Far East Asia.  =
Not surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, mostly US.

Meetings began to be held in Europe as well as North America in the early 1=
990s when there was significant activity in Europe that was funded by Europ=
eans, a strong growth in European participation in IETF, and willing sponso=
rs.

The Internet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global t=
hing and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.  We really cou=
ld consider where the majority of participants come from, which is not from=
 Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a signifi=
cant number of participants.

\end{aside}

I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, but =
with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa since they a=
re more underprivileged than any other part of the world that we could expe=
ct participation from.  So far that has not happened probably because we wo=
uld expect very few local participants and we may not be able to find a spo=
nsor.

There have been suggestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but A=
FAIK no sponsors.  Travel logistics would likely be even more challenging, =
but as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reasonably accessible, an=
d was safe to travel to, I'm sure IAOC would strongly consider it.

I don't think IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.  There are many f=
actors for them to consider.

Curtis

--
DY

--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07612885SVEXDBPROD1infi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











There are many things for IAOC to consider.  It is wort=
h noting that attendance does not seem to be affected by location:  Qu=
ebec 1127, Prague 1229, Beijing
 1207, Maastricht 1192, Anaheim 1248, Hiroshima 1152, Stockholm 1124, San F=
rancisco 1186, Minneapolis 962, Dublin 1183, Philadelphia 1174, Vancouver 1=
128, Chicago 1175, Prague 1193, San Diego 1245, Montreal 1257, …=



 


Due to the country’s restrictive policy regarding filt=
ering the CN meeting was problematic, though in the end it was worked out.&=
nbsp; I heard from one of the
 volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was uncooperative with reg=
ard to configuring the network, requiring the staff to discover the topolog=
y due to failure to communicate as equipment was deployed and having to con=
figure unfamiliar equipment with
 the host providing equipment but little or no assistance in the equipment =
configuration.


 


My understanding is that the IAOC is having trouble getting =
sponsors for some locations in addition to noting that hotel rates are quit=
e high in any place
 in the Far East that they have considered.


 


I prefer to stop second guessing IAOC and let them negotiate=
 with potential sponsors and venues.


 


Curtis


 








From: dykim6@g=
mail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:49 PM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Jakob Heitz; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we ge=
tting complacent? Good job!)






 


Hi, Curtis,



I've been attending many, of course not all, IETF meeting since mid 90s, so=
 I do know the history you've described.



You said:



   "We really could consider where the majority of participa=
nts come from, which is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be acce=
ssible to regions with a significant number of participants."



A good point, for minimization of the total cost/pain.



But, you went to far when you picked Africa as an example, although I start=
 recognizing more about South American activities.



Take Far East Asia, more specifically. If you don't disagree too far, China=
, and India are growing both in terms of markets and technical contribution=
s. (I'd reserve Japan, for it has already been far ahead.) And Corea is str=
uggling to catch up with opportunities
 in the Internet, although it has had partial success in different business=
 sectors.



Talking about the number of participants, if the meeting would be held near=
er to these countries, for example(just for an example for developing my lo=
gic, if there's any logic), their participants would be much higher than ot=
herwise.



I'm not sure if some people remember that for several years and meetings, C=
orea would rank within five top countries as IETF participants, and that mo=
stly in NA and sometimes EU countries. (There haven only two JP meetings, o=
ne CN, and one KR meeting out of
 so many IETF meetings, you know). Sometimes, nearly 100 from Corea alone, =
from so small a country.



Now, it's China sending almost 150 people to every meeting, if I'm not wron=
g. 



If the enthusiasm is such high from this region, their participation would =
grow much higher if they'd be given chance to host meetings near their regi=
on.




OK, the number is not all, you have to do technical contribution. This agai=
n would grow if there are exposed to more opportunities.



I mean.. the dominance of participation partly is affected by the continent=
s where venues are placed.



It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA or EU, th=
at there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a smaller portion. On=
 the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this region.



Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to be m=
ore exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or potential m=
arket grow or even technical contribution.



If one would say, we're larger, so we'll stick here around.... then, we're =
not maximizing our potential product.



Well, by now, I'm losing my emotion to continue my non-logic.



Since when has the human history been of such mutual respect and considerat=
ion? It's almost futile to talk about this non-secular argument.



So, be it. Sufferers would suffer, goers would go. No problem.<=
/o:p>




On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Curtis Villamizar &l=
t;cvillamizar@infinera.com&=
gt; wrote:






This thread wasn=
217;t really about meeting location so I changed the subject.


 <=
/o:p>


Just FYI - I’=
ve attended IETF on and off since 1992.  Attendance then had just brok=
en 200.


 <=
/o:p>


\begin{aside} =
 % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notation (only confuses=
 readers)


 <=
/o:p>


Up until the early =
1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded by the US NSF (Nationa=
l Science Foundation), including much
 of the (small amount of) research and education networking in Europe and t=
he Far East Asia.  Not surprising that meetings at that time were in N=
A, mostly US.


 <=
/o:p>


Meetings began to b=
e held in Europe as well as North America in the early 1990s when there was=
 significant activity in Europe that was
 funded by Europeans, a strong growth in European participation in IETF, an=
d willing sponsors.


 <=
/o:p>


The Internet origin=
ated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global thing and we are now=
 having IETF meetings all over the world. 
 We really could consider where the majority of participants come from, whi=
ch is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions =
with a significant number of participants.


 <=
/o:p>


\end{aside}<=
o:p>


 <=
/o:p>


I’m not argui=
ng that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, but with your log=
ic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa
 since they are more underprivileged than any other part of the world that =
we could expect participation from.  So far that has not happened prob=
ably because we would expect very few local participants and we may not be =
able to find a sponsor.


 <=
/o:p>


There have been sug=
gestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but AFAIK no sponsors.&n=
bsp; Travel logistics would likely be even
 more challenging, but as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reason=
ably accessible, and was safe to travel to, I’m sure IAOC would stron=
gly consider it.


 <=
/o:p>


I don’t think=
 IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.  There are many factors f=
or them to consider.


 <=
/o:p>


Curtis












-- 

DY








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References: <4E34C3A9.2020502@att.com>  <80A0822C5E9A4440A5117C2F4CD36A6402713C27@DEMUEXC006.nsn-intra.net> <3DA9637F-1C72-43CB-B040-49F2A6FF26D9@softarmor.com> <4E398F03.1000806@dcrocker.net>  <744D8CA9-9C01-41A5-A22C-CDF2F4E904EF@fugue.com>     <7309FCBCAE981B43ABBE69B31C8D213914A1EBA927@EUSAACMS0701.eamcs.ericsson.se>    
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 8, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:

> I heard from one of the volunteers that sets up the venue that the =
host was uncooperative with regard to configuring the network, requiring =
the staff to discover the topology due to failure to communicate as =
equipment was deployed and having to configure unfamiliar equipment with =
the host providing equipment but little or no assistance in the =
equipment configuration.
>=20

	This was not the case. We worked closely with the folks from =
Tsinghua, both in the configuration and the deployment.  Ultimately, it =
was their network, and it came off quite well. They deserve kudos, not =
darts, for their efforts.=20

	- Jim


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I heard from one of the =
volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was uncooperative with =
regard to configuring the network, requiring the staff to discover the =
topology due to failure to communicate as equipment was deployed and =
having to configure unfamiliar equipment with the host providing =
equipment but little or no assistance in the equipment =
configuration.


	This was =
not the case. We worked closely with the folks from Tsinghua, both in =
the configuration and the deployment.  Ultimately, it was their =
network, and it came off quite well. They deserve kudos, not darts, for =
their efforts. 

	- =
Jim

=

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From randy@qualcomm.com  Mon Aug  8 14:05:02 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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At 4:13 AM +0900 8/9/11, Dae Young KIM wrote:

>  Hope more people start thinking the continent they're living is not 
> the end of the world.

I may be biased or blind to it, but I haven't see this within the IETF.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
A bather whose clothing was strewed
By breezes that left her quite nude,
        Saw a man come along
        And, unless I'm quite wrong,
You expected this line to be lewd.

From glen@amsl.com  Mon Aug  8 14:11:07 2011
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From: Glen 
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On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 02:46:59PM -0400, Novikov, Lev wrote:
> Looks like http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/ only has a
> handful of slides left.
> Lev

We had a brief issue with the directory, but that should all be resolved
at this point.   We are doing a hand check just to be sure we didn't miss
anything, but everything should be in place.

Sorry for the inconvenience,
Glen

Glen Barney
IT Director
AMS (IETF Secretariat)


From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Mon Aug  8 14:22:30 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Jim Martin 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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OK.  I stand corrected.

From: Jim Martin [mailto:jim@daedelus.com]
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:58 PM
To: Curtis Villamizar
Cc: Dae Young KIM; 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting c=
omplacent? Good job!)


On Aug 8, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:


I heard from one of the volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was=
 uncooperative with regard to configuring the network, requiring the staff =
to discover the topology due to failure to communicate as equipment was dep=
loyed and having to configure unfamiliar equipment with the host providing =
equipment but little or no assistance in the equipment configuration.


          This was not the case. We worked closely with the folks from Tsin=
ghua, both in the configuration and the deployment.  Ultimately, it was the=
ir network, and it came off quite well. They deserve kudos, not darts, for =
their efforts.

          - Jim


--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB076128B0SVEXDBPROD1infi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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OK.  I stand corrected.


 








From: Jim Mart=
in [mailto:jim@daedelus.com]


Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:58 PM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Dae Young KIM; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we ge=
tting complacent? Good job!)






 


 






On Aug 8, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:=














I heard from one of the volunteers that sets up the venue th=
at the host was uncooperative with regard to configuring the network, requi=
ring the staff to discover
 the topology due to failure to communicate as equipment was deployed and h=
aving to configure unfamiliar equipment with the host providing equipment b=
ut little or no assistance in the equipment configuration.




 




 




   &nb=
sp;      This was not the case. We worked c=
losely with the folks from Tsinghua, both in the configuration and the depl=
oyment.  Ultimately, it was their network, and it came off quite well.=
 They deserve
 kudos, not darts, for their efforts. 






 






   &nb=
sp;      - Jim






 










--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB076128B0SVEXDBPROD1infi_--

From john-ietf@jck.com  Mon Aug  8 16:43:24 2011
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From: John C Klensin 
To: Curtis Villamizar , Dae Young KIM 
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--On Monday, August 08, 2011 20:41 +0000 Curtis Villamizar
 wrote:

> There are many things for IAOC to consider.  It is worth
> noting that attendance does not seem to be affected by
> location:  Quebec 1127, Prague 1229, Beijing 1207, Maastricht
> 1192, Anaheim 1248, Hiroshima 1152, Stockholm 1124, San
> Francisco 1186, Minneapolis 962, Dublin 1183, Philadelphia
> 1174, Vancouver 1128, Chicago 1175, Prague 1193, San Diego
> 1245, Montreal 1257, ...

Curtis,

Just in the interest of good statistical practice, the only
thing total attendance figures are good for is the P/L
statement.  That is legitimate and important to the IAOC, but
has little to do with effective IETF functioning (and that
assumes that there are not significant number of day passes or
other cheap admissions in those totals).    Otherwise, one needs
to look at attendance from outside a particular area, the
long-term average attendance of people who happen to be from
that area, and the "attending because it is close or a
curiosity" numbers separately and think about the effects on
IETF effectiveness.  I am not, for the record, claiming that any
of those groups are unimportant... they are, however, different.

To illustrate how that works, suppose Anaheim included 250
locals who hadn't been at an IETF meeting before or since and
Beijing including mostly hard-core repeat attendees, whether
from China or not.  That would make Beijing a relatively high
attendance meeting and Anaheim a relatively low attendance one
as far as getting IETF work done is concerned, despite the
apparent relationships of the figures above.  It would also make
Minneapolis look close to the others in attendance if there
wasn't a large local contingent who don't otherwise attend
there. Note that I'm not claiming those thing happened with any
of the three meetings -- I haven't seen, much less thought
about, the numbers and have no reason to believe any of those
hypotheses are true.   But it is the sort of thing we need to
consider if we are trying to evaluate numbers.

It is also difficult to calibrate the meaning of all of the
usual whining when long-term projections are concerned.  There
are at least some number of people who are sufficiently
committed to their work in the IETF that, if a very unattractive
(to them or their organizations) location is picked, they will
complain and attend (not necessarily in that order), so we count
them in the attendance figures and decide the meeting was an
attendance-success.  But, if we provide them with several
unattractive locations in a row, maybe they (or their
organizations) reconsider participation in the IETF.  The odds
of figuring out that situation is occurring from either
attendance figures or quickly-assembled surveys is very low; by
the time the effects are actually felt, it is too late.

Unless your point is that almost nothing we do is likely to make
more than about 300 or 400 difference in total attendees no
matter what we do and where we go.  If so, I'd tend to agree
with that, at least within very broad limits, but note that a
drop of a few hundred attendees for several meetings in a row
could have really nasty effects on the budget.

    john


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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 5:41 AM, Curtis Villamizar
wrote:

>  There are many things for IAOC to consider.  It is worth noting that
> attendance does not seem to be affected by location:  Quebec 1127, Prague
> 1229, Beijing 1207, Maastricht 1192, Anaheim 1248, Hiroshima 1152, Stockh=
olm
> 1124, San Francisco 1186, Minneapolis 962, Dublin 1183, Philadelphia 1174=
,
> Vancouver 1128, Chicago 1175, Prague 1193, San Diego 1245, Montreal 1257,=
 =85
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Due to the country=92s restrictive policy regarding filtering the CN meet=
ing
> was problematic, though in the end it was worked out.  I heard from one o=
f
> the volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was uncooperative wit=
h
> regard to configuring the network, requiring the staff to discover the
> topology due to failure to communicate as equipment was deployed and havi=
ng
> to configure unfamiliar equipment with the host providing equipment but
> little or no assistance in the equipment configuration.****
>
> ** **
>
> My understanding is that the IAOC is having trouble getting sponsors for
> some locations in addition to noting that hotel rates are quite high in a=
ny
> place in the Far East that they have considered.****
>
> ** **
>
> I prefer to stop second guessing IAOC and let them negotiate with potenti=
al
> sponsors and venues.
>

I'm afraid I was not going to challenge IAOC. On the contrary, I'm all for
leaving this tough task to IAOC, appreciating their efforts, and stopping
this thread.


> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Curtis****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Dae
> Young KIM
> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2011 12:49 PM
> *To:* Curtis Villamizar
> *Cc:* Jakob Heitz; 81attendees@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
> getting complacent? Good job!)****
>
> ** **
>
> Hi, Curtis,
>
> I've been attending many, of course not all, IETF meeting since mid 90s, =
so
> I do know the history you've described.
>
> You said:
>
>    "We really could consider where the majority of participants come from=
,
> which is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to
> regions with a significant number of participants."
>
> A good point, for minimization of the total cost/pain.
>
> But, you went to far when you picked Africa as an example, although I sta=
rt
> recognizing more about South American activities.
>
> Take Far East Asia, more specifically. If you don't disagree too far,
> China, and India are growing both in terms of markets and technical
> contributions. (I'd reserve Japan, for it has already been far ahead.) An=
d
> Corea is struggling to catch up with opportunities in the Internet, altho=
ugh
> it has had partial success in different business sectors.
>
> Talking about the number of participants, if the meeting would be held
> nearer to these countries, for example(just for an example for developing=
 my
> logic, if there's any logic), their participants would be much higher tha=
n
> otherwise.
>
> I'm not sure if some people remember that for several years and meetings,
> Corea would rank within five top countries as IETF participants, and that
> mostly in NA and sometimes EU countries. (There haven only two JP meeting=
s,
> one CN, and one KR meeting out of so many IETF meetings, you know).
> Sometimes, nearly 100 from Corea alone, from so small a country.
>
> Now, it's China sending almost 150 people to every meeting, if I'm not
> wrong.
>
> If the enthusiasm is such high from this region, their participation woul=
d
> grow much higher if they'd be given chance to host meetings near their
> region.
>
> OK, the number is not all, you have to do technical contribution. This
> again would grow if there are exposed to more opportunities.
>
> I mean.. the dominance of participation partly is affected by the
> continents where venues are placed.
>
> It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA or EU,
> that there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a smaller portion=
.
> On the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this region.
>
> Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to be
> more exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or potentia=
l
> market grow or even technical contribution.
>
> If one would say, we're larger, so we'll stick here around.... then, we'r=
e
> not maximizing our potential product.
>
> Well, by now, I'm losing my emotion to continue my non-logic.
>
> Since when has the human history been of such mutual respect and
> consideration? It's almost futile to talk about this non-secular argument=
.
>
> So, be it. Sufferers would suffer, goers would go. No problem.****
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Curtis Villamizar <
> cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:****
>
> This thread wasn=92t really about meeting location so I changed the subje=
ct.
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> Just FYI - I=92ve attended IETF on and off since 1992.  Attendance then h=
ad
> just broken 200.****
>
>  ****
>
> \begin{aside}  % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notatio=
n
> (only confuses readers)****
>
>  ****
>
> Up until the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded b=
y
> the US NSF (National Science Foundation), including much of the (small
> amount of) research and education networking in Europe and the Far East
> Asia.  Not surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, mostly US.**=
*
> *
>
>  ****
>
> Meetings began to be held in Europe as well as North America in the early
> 1990s when there was significant activity in Europe that was funded by
> Europeans, a strong growth in European participation in IETF, and willing
> sponsors.****
>
>  ****
>
> The Internet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global
> thing and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.  We really
> could consider where the majority of participants come from, which is not
> from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions with a
> significant number of participants.****
>
>  ****
>
> \end{aside}****
>
>  ****
>
> I=92m not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, =
but
> with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa since they
> are more underprivileged than any other part of the world that we could
> expect participation from.  So far that has not happened probably because=
 we
> would expect very few local participants and we may not be able to find a
> sponsor.****
>
>  ****
>
> There have been suggestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but
> AFAIK no sponsors.  Travel logistics would likely be even more challengin=
g,
> but as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reasonably accessible, =
and
> was safe to travel to, I=92m sure IAOC would strongly consider it.****
>
>  ****
>
> I don=92t think IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.  There are ma=
ny
> factors for them to consider.****
>
>  ****
>
> Curtis
> ****
>
>
> --
> DY****
>



--=20
DY

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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 5:41 AM, Curtis Villamizar <cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:













There=
 are many things for IAOC to consider.=A0 It is worth noting that attendanc=
e does not seem to be affected by location:=A0 Quebec 1127, Prague 1229, Be=
ijing
 1207, Maastricht 1192, Anaheim 1248, Hiroshima 1152, Stockholm 1124, San F=
rancisco 1186, Minneapolis 962, Dublin 1183, Philadelphia 1174, Vancouver 1=
128, Chicago 1175, Prague 1193, San Diego 1245, Montreal 1257, =85




=A0


Due t=
o the country=92s restrictive policy regarding filtering the CN meeting was=
 problematic, though in the end it was worked out.=A0 I heard from one of t=
he
 volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was uncooperative with reg=
ard to configuring the network, requiring the staff to discover the topolog=
y due to failure to communicate as equipment was deployed and having to con=
figure unfamiliar equipment with
 the host providing equipment but little or no assistance in the equipment =
configuration.


=A0


My un=
derstanding is that the IAOC is having trouble getting sponsors for some lo=
cations in addition to noting that hotel rates are quite high in any place
 in the Far East that they have considered.


=A0


I pre=
fer to stop second guessing IAOC and let them negotiate with potential spon=
sors and venues.

I'm afraid=
 I was not going to challenge IAOC. On the contrary, I'm all for leavin=
g this tough task to IAOC, appreciating their efforts, and stopping this th=
read.


=A0
=





=A0


Curti=
s


=A0








From:=
 dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:49 PM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Jakob Heitz; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we ge=
tting complacent? Good job!)






=A0


Hi, Curtis,



I've been attending many, of course not all, IETF meeting since mid 90s=
, so I do know the history you've described.



You said:



=A0=A0 "We really could consider where the majority of participants co=
me from, which is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible=
 to regions with a significant number of participants."



A good point, for minimization of the total cost/pain.



But, you went to far when you picked Africa as an example, although I start=
 recognizing more about South American activities.



Take Far East Asia, more specifically. If you don't disagree too far, C=
hina, and India are growing both in terms of markets and technical contribu=
tions. (I'd reserve Japan, for it has already been far ahead.) And Core=
a is struggling to catch up with opportunities
 in the Internet, although it has had partial success in different business=
 sectors.



Talking about the number of participants, if the meeting would be held near=
er to these countries, for example(just for an example for developing my lo=
gic, if there's any logic), their participants would be much higher tha=
n otherwise.





I'm not sure if some people remember that for several years and meeting=
s, Corea would rank within five top countries as IETF participants, and tha=
t mostly in NA and sometimes EU countries. (There haven only two JP meeting=
s, one CN, and one KR meeting out of
 so many IETF meetings, you know). Sometimes, nearly 100 from Corea alone, =
from so small a country.



Now, it's China sending almost 150 people to every meeting, if I'm =
not wrong. 



If the enthusiasm is such high from this region, their participation would =
grow much higher if they'd be given chance to host meetings near their =
region.




OK, the number is not all, you have to do technical contribution. This agai=
n would grow if there are exposed to more opportunities.



I mean.. the dominance of participation partly is affected by the continent=
s where venues are placed.



It's not fair to say, after having dominantly more meetings in NA or EU=
, that there's little reason to go to FEA because they're a smaller=
 portion. On the contrary, perhaps, the enthusiasm is higher in this region=
.





Here comes the word of consideration for geographical diversity. Or to be m=
ore exact. chasing after the center of gravity of enthusiasm or potential m=
arket grow or even technical contribution.



If one would say, we're larger, so we'll stick here around.... then=
, we're not maximizing our potential product.



Well, by now, I'm losing my emotion to continue my non-logic.



Since when has the human history been of such mutual respect and considerat=
ion? It's almost futile to talk about this non-secular argument.



So, be it. Sufferers would suffer, goers would go. No problem.




On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Curtis Villamizar &l=
t;cvillamizar=
@infinera.com> wrote:






This =
thread wasn=92t really about meeting location so I changed the subject.


=A0


Just =
FYI - I=92ve attended IETF on and off since 1992.=A0 Attendance then had ju=
st broken 200.


=A0


\begi=
n{aside}=A0 % xml notation can confuse software so using latex notation (on=
ly confuses readers)


=A0


Up un=
til the early 1990s most of the Internet infrastructure was funded by the U=
S NSF (National Science Foundation), including much
 of the (small amount of) research and education networking in Europe and t=
he Far East Asia.=A0 Not surprising that meetings at that time were in NA, =
mostly US.


=A0


Meeti=
ngs began to be held in Europe as well as North America in the early 1990s =
when there was significant activity in Europe that was
 funded by Europeans, a strong growth in European participation in IETF, an=
d willing sponsors.


=A0


The I=
nternet originated in NA, then Europe, but is now very much a global thing =
and we are now having IETF meetings all over the world.=A0
 We really could consider where the majority of participants come from, whi=
ch is not from Far East Asia, but we want IETF to be accessible to regions =
with a significant number of participants.


=A0


\end{=
aside}


=A0


I=92m=
 not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations, but wit=
h your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa
 since they are more underprivileged than any other part of the world that =
we could expect participation from.=A0 So far that has not happened probabl=
y because we would expect very few local participants and we may not be abl=
e to find a sponsor.




=A0


There=
 have been suggestions that we meet in South America and Africa, but AFAIK =
no sponsors.=A0 Travel logistics would likely be even
 more challenging, but as long as the destination had a sponsor, was reason=
ably accessible, and was safe to travel to, I=92m sure IAOC would strongly =
consider it.


=A0


I don=
=92t think IAOC has been unfair in its site selection.=A0 There are many fa=
ctors for them to consider.


=A0


Curti=
s












-- 

DY











-- 
DY


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From touch@isi.edu  Mon Aug  8 17:54:04 2011
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From: Joe Touch 
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Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org, Dae Young KIM 
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations
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On 8/8/2011 4:43 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
> But, if we provide them with several
> unattractive locations in a row, maybe they (or their
> organizations) reconsider participation in the IETF.

For my part, the pain/time of logistics has impacted my participating in 
person to *2 of the last 3* meetings.

I figure that's high, given I otherwise haven't missed a meeting since 
1996 when I first started attending.

> The odds
> of figuring out that situation is occurring from either
> attendance figures or quickly-assembled surveys is very low; by
> the time the effects are actually felt, it is too late.

Why not just ask?

I will attend only when the benefit to me isn't outweighed by the 
logistics, and the recent track record on that has been poor.

Joe


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Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 17:56:28 -0700
To: John C Klensin , Curtis Villamizar 
From: Randall Gellens 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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At 7:43 PM -0400 8/8/11, John C Klensin wrote:

>  the only
>  thing total attendance figures are good for is the P/L
>  statement.  That is legitimate and important to the IAOC, but
>  has little to do with effective IETF functioning
>
>  Unless your point is that almost nothing we do is likely to make
>  more than about 300 or 400 difference in total attendees no
>  matter what we do and where we go.  If so, I'd tend to agree
>  with that, at least within very broad limits, but note that a
>  drop of a few hundred attendees for several meetings in a row
>  could have really nasty effects on the budget.

So, we need a way to encourage the core of people who are interested 
in doing work, plus maybe also enough casual attendees that we prop 
up the revenue side of the budget, and for companies to pay for 
people to go, and while we're at it, maybe we can also mitigate the 
problem of rooms too crowded with "IETF tourists" for people 
interested in doing work to get in?  Something along the lines of:

	- Meetings in Hawaii and other desirable locales
	- A lower "basic entry" registration fee which gets one in to the 
reception, social, and plenary
	- A higher "hard core" registration fee allowing unlimited entry 
to all WGs and BOFs
	- A "premier facilitator" discount for companies registering 10, 
20, 30 attendees
	- A "valiant contributor" discount on an individual registration 
fees based on number of RFCs published as author, editor, 
contributor, or acknowledgement
	- Press releases for each meeting with names of companies paying 
for people to attend, (in order of how much they paid total) 
congratulating them for helping progress the future of the Internet

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Hippogriff:  An animal (now extinct) which was half horse and half
griffin.  The griffin was itself a compound creature, half lion and
half eagle.  The hippogriff was actually, therefore, only one quarter
eagle, which is two dollars and fifty cents in gold.  The study of
zoology is full of surprises.

From dykim6@gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 18:12:38 2011
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> So, for 2009, we went to San Francisco, Stockholm, and *Hiroshima*.
> For 2010, we went to Anaheim, Maastricht, and *Beijing*.
> For 2011, we're going to Quebec, *Taipei*, and Paris.
>

That was not the point.

>
> What is it you're asking for?
>

The point is that hotel price or an extra hop flight/ground may not be the
compelling reason to accept or reject a candidate venues.

More consideration would be like

   - can we have a good network infrastructure to the venue?

   - are cheaper alternative accommodations are available nearby?

   - if possible, is there a local host?

   - etc.

-- 
DY

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    So, for 2009, we went to San Francisco, Stockholm, and *Hiroshima*.

    For 2010, we went to Anaheim, Maastricht, and *Beijing*.

    For 2011, we're going to Quebec, *Taipei*, and Paris.

That was not the point. 




    

    What is it you're asking for?

The po=
int is that hotel price or an extra hop flight/ground may not be the compel=
ling reason to accept or reject a candidate venues.

More considerati=
on would be like



=A0=A0 - can we have a good network infrastructure to the venue?
=A0=A0 - are cheaper alternative accommodations are available nearby?
<=
br>=A0=A0 - if possible, is there a local host?

=A0=A0 - etc.


-- 
DY


--000e0cdf3f6ee0f5dd04aa0843c4--

From randy@psg.com  Mon Aug  8 18:31:58 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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> Due to the country's restrictive policy regarding filtering the CN
> meeting was problematic, though in the end it was worked out.  I heard
> from one of the volunteers that sets up the venue that the host was
> uncooperative with regard to configuring the network, requiring the
> staff to discover the topology due to failure to communicate as
> equipment was deployed and having to configure unfamiliar equipment
> with the host providing equipment but little or no assistance in the
> equipment configuration.

completely untrue, period

From jmpolk@cisco.com  Mon Aug  8 18:32:16 2011
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At 08:12 PM 8/8/2011, Dae Young KIM wrote:

>So, for 2009, we went to San Francisco, Stockholm, and *Hiroshima*.
>For 2010, we went to Anaheim, Maastricht, and *Beijing*.
>For 2011, we're going to Quebec, *Taipei*, and Paris.
>
>
>That was not the point.
>
>What is it you're asking for?
>
>
>The point is that hotel price or an extra hop flight/ground may not 
>be the compelling reason to accept or reject a candidate venues.
>
>More consideration would be like
>
>    - can we have a good network infrastructure to the venue?
>
>    - are cheaper alternative accommodations are available nearby?
>
>    - if possible, is there a local host?

and...

     - Diet Coke served all day

and... the all important

     - good, moist cookies each afternoon.

;-)

James


>    - etc.
>
>--
>DY
>_______________________________________________
>81attendees mailing list
>81attendees@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


From dykim6@gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 18:37:03 2011
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  >>maybe we can also mitigate the problem of rooms too crowded
  >> with "IETF tourists" for people interested in doing work to get in?

What's wrong for a room to be crowded because a lot of people, perhaps most
of them watchers(?), are interested in the topic for whatever reasons they
may have?

-- 
DY

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=A0 >>maybe we can also mitigate the problem of rooms too crowded
=
=A0 >> with "IETF tourists" for people interested in doing =
work to get in?

What's wrong for a room to be crowded because a =
lot of people, perhaps most of them watchers(?), are interested in the topi=
c for whatever reasons they may have?



-- 
DY


--000e0cd6a9ce62055e04aa089b98--

From randy@psg.com  Mon Aug  8 18:37:41 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] are we getting complacent? Good job!
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>> Hope more people start thinking the continent they're living is not
>> the end of the world.
> I may be biased or blind to it, but I haven't see this within the
> IETF.

before i dumped the ibm lameframe world and went to the minis in the
second half of the '60s, i did not realize how blindered i had been.

those of us who live outside the united states and read this mailing
list are far from shocked by the we-are-the-world attitude, as we watch
it demonstrated with drones and bombs.

randy, on nagasaki day (jst)

From rg+ietf@qualcomm.com  Mon Aug  8 19:35:20 2011
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At 10:37 AM +0900 8/9/11, Dae Young KIM wrote:

>    >>maybe we can also mitigate the problem of rooms too crowded
>    >> with "IETF tourists" for people interested in doing work to get in?
>
>  What's wrong for a room to be crowded because a lot of people, 
> perhaps most of them watchers(?), are interested in the topic for 
> whatever reasons they may have?

This was discussed during the IETF, when several BOFs (including 
homenet and repute) were so crowded that people could not get in. 
The usual good points were made about BOFs attracting interest from 
newcomers, etc.

By the way, the rough consensus that I detected from that discussion 
was "get bigger rooms for BOFs".

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
... Any resemblance between the above views and those of my
employer, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely
coincidental.  Any resemblance between the above and my own
views is non-deterministic.  The question of the existence of
views in the absence of anyone to hold them is left as an
exercise for the reader.  The question of the existence of the
reader is left as an exercise for the second god coefficient.
(A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism
is beyond the scope of this article.)

From ggm@apnic.net  Mon Aug  8 19:39:07 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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an awful lot of stuff about IETF 'now' can be covered off by 'its not =
your grand-dads IETF'

A Comrade (he might not thank me for it so he shall remain nameless) =
spoke up in a meeting I was in about succession planning. IETF needs =
succession planning.=20

Part of succession planning is bringing new, younger blood in, and if =
that means BoFs with more tire kickers and more people, and more =
questions which old timers think are silly, then thats the price you pay =
for HAVING a succession plan.

so, I am a big +1 on this.

We need more blood. IETF vampires vant your young blood...

-G



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From: Yoav Nir 
To: Dae Young KIM 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 08:30:05 +0300
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Dae Young KIM wrote:

>   >>maybe we can also mitigate the problem of rooms too crowded
>   >> with "IETF tourists" for people interested in doing work to get in?
>=20
> What's wrong for a room to be crowded because a lot of people, perhaps mo=
st of them watchers(?), are interested in the topic for whatever reasons th=
ey may have?

This is true for BoFs. But working groups should, you know, work.

There are working group sessions with about 8-10 people sitting in the fron=
t rows and actually listening, plus 30-40 more sitting in the back reading =
email and charging their laptops. This creates a false impression of the le=
vel of interest in the working group, and it also skews the feel of the roo=
m when trying to assess consensus. "Who thinks we should take on this item?=
" 8 people out of 50 raise their hand. How is the chair or AD to know that =
40 of those 50 are just tourists?  It looks like the group has said "meh".



From mellon@fugue.com  Mon Aug  8 22:35:44 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:30 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
> 8 people out of 50 raise their hand. How is the chair or AD to know =
that 40 of those 50 are just tourists?  It looks like the group has said =
"meh".

"Who has read the draft?"

four hands go up

"Out of those, who thinks this is useful work?"

four hands go up

"Who thinks this is a bad idea?"

no hands go up

That, unfortunately, is what consensus sometimes looks like.   You have =
to gauge who's actually participating before you start looking for =
consensus.


--Apple-Mail=_6F0ADC3B-F667-42A9-8540-7E222FD221C3
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8 people out =
of 50 raise their hand. How is the chair or AD to know that 40 of those =
50 are just tourists?  It looks like the group has said =
"meh".
"Who has read the =
draft?"

four hands go =
up

"Out of those, who thinks this is useful =
work?"

four hands go =
up

"Who thinks this is a bad =
idea?"

no hands go =
up

That, unfortunately, is what consensus =
sometimes looks like.   You have to gauge who's actually =
participating before you start looking for =
consensus.

=

--Apple-Mail=_6F0ADC3B-F667-42A9-8540-7E222FD221C3--

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From: Yoav Nir 
To: Randall Gellens 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 08:39:31 +0300
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:56 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:

>=20
> 	- Meetings in Hawaii and other desirable locales
> 	- A lower "basic entry" registration fee which gets one in to the=20
> reception, social, and plenary
> 	- A higher "hard core" registration fee allowing unlimited entry=20
> to all WGs and BOFs
> 	- A "premier facilitator" discount for companies registering 10,=20
> 20, 30 attendees
> 	- A "valiant contributor" discount on an individual registration=20
> fees based on number of RFCs published as author, editor,=20
> contributor, or acknowledgement

I think a $50 discount per RFC is reasonable. Although we'd end up paying p=
eople like Hannes and Bernard Aboba $2000 to attend.

> 	- Press releases for each meeting with names of companies paying=20
> for people to attend, (in order of how much they paid total)=20
> congratulating them for helping progress the future of the Internet


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From: Yoav Nir 
To: Ted Lemon 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 08:41:58 +0300
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:

On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:30 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
8 people out of 50 raise their hand. How is the chair or AD to know that 40=
 of those 50 are just tourists?  It looks like the group has said "meh".

"Who has read the draft?"

four hands go up

"Out of those, who thinks this is useful work?"

four hands go up

"Who thinks this is a bad idea?"

no hands go up

That, unfortunately, is what consensus sometimes looks like.   You have to =
gauge who's actually participating before you start looking for consensus.

Or from a session in QC:

"Who has read the draft?"

Four hands go up

"Who has read the draft, and is NOT a co-author or WG chair?"

No hands go up

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On Aug 9, 20=
11, at 8:36 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:

On Aug =
9, 2011, at 1:30 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:

"Who has read the draft?"

four hands go up

"Out of those, wh=
o thinks this is useful work?"

four hands go up

"Who thinks this is a bad idea?"

no hands go up

That, unfortunately, is what =
consensus sometimes looks like.   You have to gauge who's actually par=
ticipating before you start looking for consensus.
=


Or from a session in QC:

"Who has r=
ead the draft?"

Four hands go up

"Who has read the draft, and is NOT a co-author or WG chair?"
=


No hands go up
=

--_000_11365A30937F4984BDE52C761BF2EBBDcheckpointcom_--

From ynir@checkpoint.com  Mon Aug  8 23:07:21 2011
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From: Yoav Nir 
To: Dae Young KIM 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 09:07:43 +0300
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On 8/9/11 8:39 AM, "Dae Young KIM"  wrote:

>One brutal practice taken in some other conferences are to shut off
>wireless in meeting rooms. As long as there's networks available in the
>room, you cannot contol the situation.

Which would have worked four years ago, but not so much today. Besides,
Internet engineering without the Internet?

>And as I observed, there were more often than not also a whole bunch of
>'renowned' IETFers imnersed into their screens, even sometimes
>programming.
>
>Are they also IETF Tourists according to your classification?

Definitely

>
>DY from my iPhone

Your iPhone (and iPads, and many laptops today) would have an Internet
connection even if the IETF shut down the wifi.


From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Aug  9 03:51:03 2011
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From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" 
To: Yoav Nir , Randall Gellens 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:51:13 +0200
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Unfortunately, the success of the IETF is not measured by the number of RFC=
s published, and therefore this entire charging model doesn't work.

Regards

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf Of Yoav Nir
> Sent: 09 August 2011 06:40
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting
> complacent? Good job!)
>=20
>=20
> On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:56 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
> >
> > 	- Meetings in Hawaii and other desirable locales
> > 	- A lower "basic entry" registration fee which gets one in to the
> > reception, social, and plenary
> > 	- A higher "hard core" registration fee allowing unlimited entry
> > to all WGs and BOFs
> > 	- A "premier facilitator" discount for companies registering 10,
> > 20, 30 attendees
> > 	- A "valiant contributor" discount on an individual registration
> > fees based on number of RFCs published as author, editor,
> > contributor, or acknowledgement
>=20
> I think a $50 discount per RFC is reasonable. Although we'd end up paying
> people like Hannes and Bernard Aboba $2000 to attend.
>=20
> > 	- Press releases for each meeting with names of companies paying
> > for people to attend, (in order of how much they paid total)
> > congratulating them for helping progress the future of the Internet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

From eburger@cs.georgetown.edu  Tue Aug  9 04:00:31 2011
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Maybe not regular meetings in Africa, but it would be great to have at =
least a meeting in Africa.

On Aug 8, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Randy Bush wrote:

>> I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse =
locations,
>> but with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa
>=20
> one might be a good idea
>=20
> randy
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Agreed.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Burger Eric wrote:

> Maybe not regular meetings in Africa, but it would be great to have at
> least a meeting in Africa.
>
> On Aug 8, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
>
> >> I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse locations,
> >> but with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa
> >
> > one might be a good idea
> >
> > randy
> > _______________________________________________
> > 81attendees mailing list
> > 81attendees@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>
>


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Agreed.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:00 PM, B=
urger Eric <eburger@cs.georgetown.edu> wrote:


Maybe not regular meetings in Africa, but it would be great to have at leas=
t a meeting in Africa.




On Aug 8, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Randy Bush wrote:



>> I'm not arguing that we should not hold meetings in diverse lo=
cations,

>> but with your logic we should hold regular IETF meetings in Africa=


>

> one might be a good idea

>

> randy


> ________________________=
_______________________

> 81attendees mailing list

> 81attendees@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees





_______________________________________________

81attendees mailing list

81attendees@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees





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On 9 Aug 2011, at 12:00, Burger Eric wrote:

> Maybe not regular meetings in Africa, but it would be great to have at le=
ast a meeting in Africa.

Which parts of Africa can be visited without requiring an armful of vaccina=
tions?

Ray


From randy@psg.com  Tue Aug  9 06:10:38 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting	complacent? Good job!)
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> Which parts of Africa can be visited without requiring an armful of
> vaccinations?

we're not phobic are we?  what does one need in london today?  baggy
trousers and a mask?

it is wise to have yellow fever innoculation if you travel in equatorial
countries anywhere in the globe.  other than that, i have traveled a bit
in africa, alyc, equatorial asia, strange islands, ... and have no other
immunizations, meds, ...

randy

From ynir@checkpoint.com  Tue Aug  9 06:13:17 2011
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From: Yoav Nir 
To: Ray Bellis , Burger Eric 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:13:13 +0300
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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Morocco, South Africa. Just two examples.

On 8/9/11 4:02 PM, "Ray Bellis"  wrote:

>
>On 9 Aug 2011, at 12:00, Burger Eric wrote:
>
>> Maybe not regular meetings in Africa, but it would be great to have at
>>least a meeting in Africa.
>
>Which parts of Africa can be visited without requiring an armful of
>vaccinations?
>
>Ray


From randy@psg.com  Tue Aug  9 06:15:57 2011
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> it is wise to have yellow fever innoculation if you travel in
> equatorial countries anywhere in the globe.  other than that, i have
> traveled a bit in africa, alyc, equatorial asia, strange islands, ...
> and have no other immunizations, meds, ...

oops!  i lied.  as in the states, uk, and other places with poor food
sanitation, hepatitis vaccination is well-advised.  and i guess i had
the normal childhood vaccines.  though not chickenpox, so i caught it at
age 39, no fun.

randy

From nishal@afrinic.net  Tue Aug  9 06:45:55 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting	complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 5:02 PM, Ray Bellis wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2011, at 12:00, Burger Eric wrote:
>=20
>> Maybe not regular meetings in Africa, but it would be great to have =
at least a meeting in Africa.
>=20
> Which parts of Africa can be visited without requiring an armful of =
vaccinations?

/delurk

all of ZA, unless you -plan- on going to a malaria area, and that's only =
certain parts of the Kruger National Park, or Lake St. Lucia[1].    same =
for EG and MA, iirc.  i've never needed vaccinations for Nairobi (in KE) =
either, though, i think, you're advised to have yellow fever.  it was =
about us$7 for a 10yr innoculation, when i got mine earlier this year.

oh, and MU.  small island, middle of indian ocean.  very popular with =
tourists, and people seeking tax havens.
*that* would be a stretch to travel to though...

JNB, CAI and NBO are also accessible from most major airports, or have a =
direct connection, which beat 14hr flights anyway, imho. [2]

--n.

[1] of course, no-one can control your individual intenary...
[2] this is by no means an exhaustive list.=

From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Tue Aug  9 07:48:33 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: John C Klensin , Dae Young KIM 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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John,

I agree with you but there is no easy statistic to get at such as how many =
active WGs didn't meet because the chairs did not attend and how many WG dr=
aft authors didn't attend.  All I was saying is that there was nothing obvi=
ous in the attendance statistics that we can easily obtain.

Curtis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 4:44 PM
> To: Curtis Villamizar; Dae Young KIM
> Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
> getting complacent? Good job!)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --On Monday, August 08, 2011 20:41 +0000 Curtis Villamizar
>  wrote:
>=20
> > There are many things for IAOC to consider.  It is worth
> > noting that attendance does not seem to be affected by
> > location:  Quebec 1127, Prague 1229, Beijing 1207, Maastricht
> > 1192, Anaheim 1248, Hiroshima 1152, Stockholm 1124, San
> > Francisco 1186, Minneapolis 962, Dublin 1183, Philadelphia
> > 1174, Vancouver 1128, Chicago 1175, Prague 1193, San Diego
> > 1245, Montreal 1257, ...
>=20
> Curtis,
>=20
> Just in the interest of good statistical practice, the only
> thing total attendance figures are good for is the P/L
> statement.  That is legitimate and important to the IAOC, but
> has little to do with effective IETF functioning (and that
> assumes that there are not significant number of day passes or
> other cheap admissions in those totals).    Otherwise, one needs
> to look at attendance from outside a particular area, the
> long-term average attendance of people who happen to be from
> that area, and the "attending because it is close or a
> curiosity" numbers separately and think about the effects on
> IETF effectiveness.  I am not, for the record, claiming that any
> of those groups are unimportant... they are, however, different.
>=20
> To illustrate how that works, suppose Anaheim included 250
> locals who hadn't been at an IETF meeting before or since and
> Beijing including mostly hard-core repeat attendees, whether
> from China or not.  That would make Beijing a relatively high
> attendance meeting and Anaheim a relatively low attendance one
> as far as getting IETF work done is concerned, despite the
> apparent relationships of the figures above.  It would also make
> Minneapolis look close to the others in attendance if there
> wasn't a large local contingent who don't otherwise attend
> there. Note that I'm not claiming those thing happened with any
> of the three meetings -- I haven't seen, much less thought
> about, the numbers and have no reason to believe any of those
> hypotheses are true.   But it is the sort of thing we need to
> consider if we are trying to evaluate numbers.
>=20
> It is also difficult to calibrate the meaning of all of the
> usual whining when long-term projections are concerned.  There
> are at least some number of people who are sufficiently
> committed to their work in the IETF that, if a very unattractive
> (to them or their organizations) location is picked, they will
> complain and attend (not necessarily in that order), so we count
> them in the attendance figures and decide the meeting was an
> attendance-success.  But, if we provide them with several
> unattractive locations in a row, maybe they (or their
> organizations) reconsider participation in the IETF.  The odds
> of figuring out that situation is occurring from either
> attendance figures or quickly-assembled surveys is very low; by
> the time the effects are actually felt, it is too late.
>=20
> Unless your point is that almost nothing we do is likely to make
> more than about 300 or 400 difference in total attendees no
> matter what we do and where we go.  If so, I'd tend to agree
> with that, at least within very broad limits, but note that a
> drop of a few hundred attendees for several meetings in a row
> could have really nasty effects on the budget.
>=20
>     john


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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Yoav Nir , Dae Young KIM 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read o=
r at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting su=
ch that they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed" pol=
ling.

One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It seems=
 like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RFC =
so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case an employer=
 was rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it presented and=
 the result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  This was counterpr=
oductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.

The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people wou=
ld commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provide=
r network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG wo=
uld provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there are auth=
ors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor interest or =
negative expressions of interest.

We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and run=
ning code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part eithe=
r.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods used by=
 other SDO along with including every half thought out feature anyone imagi=
ned during the process and no implementations.  This leads to protocols tha=
t don't work with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one=
 has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.

Curtis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Yoav Nir
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:30 PM
> To: Dae Young KIM
> Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
> getting complacent? Good job!)
>=20
>=20
> On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
>=20
> >   >>maybe we can also mitigate the problem of rooms too crowded
> >   >> with "IETF tourists" for people interested in doing work to get
> in?
> >
> > What's wrong for a room to be crowded because a lot of people,
> perhaps most of them watchers(?), are interested in the topic for
> whatever reasons they may have?
>=20
> This is true for BoFs. But working groups should, you know, work.
>=20
> There are working group sessions with about 8-10 people sitting in the
> front rows and actually listening, plus 30-40 more sitting in the back
> reading email and charging their laptops. This creates a false
> impression of the level of interest in the working group, and it also
> skews the feel of the room when trying to assess consensus. "Who thinks
> we should take on this item?" 8 people out of 50 raise their hand. How
> is the chair or AD to know that 40 of those 50 are just tourists?  It
> looks like the group has said "meh".
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

From carlos@lacnic.net  Tue Aug  9 08:14:34 2011
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+1, totally agree.

On 8/9/11 11:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:
> Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read or at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting such that they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed" polling.
>
> One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It seems like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RFC so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case an employer was rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it presented and the result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  This was counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.
>
> The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people would commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provider network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG would provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there are authors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor interest or negative expressions of interest.
>
> We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part either.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process and no implementations.  This leads to protocols that don't work with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.
>
> Curtis
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-
>> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Yoav Nir
>> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:30 PM
>> To: Dae Young KIM
>> Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
>> getting complacent? Good job!)
>>
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Dae Young KIM wrote:
>>
>>>   >>maybe we can also mitigate the problem of rooms too crowded
>>>   >> with "IETF tourists" for people interested in doing work to get
>> in?
>>> What's wrong for a room to be crowded because a lot of people,
>> perhaps most of them watchers(?), are interested in the topic for
>> whatever reasons they may have?
>>
>> This is true for BoFs. But working groups should, you know, work.
>>
>> There are working group sessions with about 8-10 people sitting in the
>> front rows and actually listening, plus 30-40 more sitting in the back
>> reading email and charging their laptops. This creates a false
>> impression of the level of interest in the working group, and it also
>> skews the feel of the room when trying to assess consensus. "Who thinks
>> we should take on this item?" 8 people out of 50 raise their hand. How
>> is the chair or AD to know that 40 of those 50 are just tourists?  It
>> looks like the group has said "meh".
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

-- 
Carlos M. Martinez
LACNIC I+D
PGP KeyID 0xD51507A2
Phone: +598-2604-2222 ext. 4419


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From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Tue Aug  9 08:18:33 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Ted Lemon , Yoav Nir 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
Thread-Index: AQHMVlZDOsCh9tT61kWoy4NWU6zIypUUoQ4g
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:19:00 +0000
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Cc: Dae Young KIM , "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting	complacent? Good job!)
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It would help in two hour meetings with a series of 5-10 minute presentatio=
ns if the WG chairs would leave up a slide with the draft name and title, t=
hen ask.

The four hands are the intersection of the two sets of "who read the draft"=
 and "who is still awake".

In many cases, if you read the draft you don't need to pay attention during=
 the presentation but it is easy to lose track of which 5 minute slot is be=
ing presented.

Curtis

From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On=
 Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:36 PM
To: Yoav Nir
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org; Dae Young KIM
Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting c=
omplacent? Good job!)

On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:30 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
8 people out of 50 raise their hand. How is the chair or AD to know that 40=
 of those 50 are just tourists?  It looks like the group has said "meh".

"Who has read the draft?"

four hands go up

"Out of those, who thinks this is useful work?"

four hands go up

"Who thinks this is a bad idea?"

no hands go up

That, unfortunately, is what consensus sometimes looks like.   You have to =
gauge who's actually participating before you start looking for consensus.


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It would help in two hour meetings with a series of 5-10 min=
ute presentations if the WG chairs would leave up a slide with the draft na=
me and title, then
 ask.


 


The four hands are the intersection of the two sets of ̶=
0;who read the draft” and “who is still awake”.


 


In many cases, if you read the draft you don’t need to=
 pay attention during the presentation but it is easy to lose track of whic=
h 5 minute slot is being
 presented.


 


Curtis


 








From: 81attend=
ees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Ted Lemon

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:36 PM

To: Yoav Nir

Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org; Dae Young KIM

Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we ge=
tting complacent? Good job!)






 






On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:30 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:






8 people out of 5=
0 raise their hand. How is the chair or AD to know that 40 of those 50 are =
just tourists?  It looks like the group has
 said "meh".






 




"Who has read the draft?"






 






four hands go up






 






"Out of those, who thinks this is useful work?&=
quot;






 






four hands go up






 






"Who thinks this is a bad idea?"






 






no hands go up






 






That, unfortunately, is what consensus sometimes loo=
ks like.   You have to gauge who's actually participating before you s=
tart looking for consensus.






 










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Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar <
cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:

> Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read
> or at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting
> such that they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed"
> polling.
>
> One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It seems
> like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RFC so
> that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case an employer was
> rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it presented and the
> result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  This was
> counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.
>
> The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people
> would commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant
> provider network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the
> WG would provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there are
> authors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor interest
> or negative expressions of interest.
>
> We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and
> running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part
> either.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods
> used by other SDO along with including every half thought out feature anyone
> imagined during the process and no implementations.  This leads to protocols
> that don't work with features that no one has ever implemented or where no
> one has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.
>
> Curtis
>

You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the
thread on how to select venues and that with diversity.

I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the
governance/operational structure of IETF.

If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'd
better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to each
meeting to filter out non-core members.

Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to change
the IETF to?

-- 
DY

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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar <<=
a href=3D"mailto:cvillamizar@infinera.com">cvillamizar@infinera.com>=
 wrote:

Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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I think this would be counterproductive.  It would increase the incentive t=
o send people just for the sake of sending more bodies.

One of the reasons IETF used to work so well is that no one cared about it =
except the people doing real work on something.

Curtis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randall Gellens [mailto:rg+ietf@qualcomm.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 5:56 PM
> To: John C Klensin; Curtis Villamizar
> Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
> getting complacent? Good job!)
>=20
> At 7:43 PM -0400 8/8/11, John C Klensin wrote:
>=20
> >  the only
> >  thing total attendance figures are good for is the P/L
> >  statement.  That is legitimate and important to the IAOC, but
> >  has little to do with effective IETF functioning
> >
> >  Unless your point is that almost nothing we do is likely to make
> >  more than about 300 or 400 difference in total attendees no
> >  matter what we do and where we go.  If so, I'd tend to agree
> >  with that, at least within very broad limits, but note that a
> >  drop of a few hundred attendees for several meetings in a row
> >  could have really nasty effects on the budget.
>=20
> So, we need a way to encourage the core of people who are interested
> in doing work, plus maybe also enough casual attendees that we prop
> up the revenue side of the budget, and for companies to pay for
> people to go, and while we're at it, maybe we can also mitigate the
> problem of rooms too crowded with "IETF tourists" for people
> interested in doing work to get in?  Something along the lines of:
>=20
> 	- Meetings in Hawaii and other desirable locales
> 	- A lower "basic entry" registration fee which gets one in to the
> reception, social, and plenary
> 	- A higher "hard core" registration fee allowing unlimited entry
> to all WGs and BOFs
> 	- A "premier facilitator" discount for companies registering 10,
> 20, 30 attendees
> 	- A "valiant contributor" discount on an individual registration
> fees based on number of RFCs published as author, editor,
> contributor, or acknowledgement
> 	- Press releases for each meeting with names of companies paying
> for people to attend, (in order of how much they paid total)
> congratulating them for helping progress the future of the Internet
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Hippogriff:  An animal (now extinct) which was half horse and half
> griffin.  The griffin was itself a compound creature, half lion and
> half eagle.  The hippogriff was actually, therefore, only one quarter
> eagle, which is two dollars and fifty cents in gold.  The study of
> zoology is full of surprises.

From warren@kumari.net  Tue Aug  9 08:34:02 2011
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To: Randy Bush 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting	complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 6:10 AM, Randy Bush wrote:

>> Which parts of Africa can be visited without requiring an armful of
>> vaccinations?


Why is this relevant?=20

For much of the equatorial world having yellow fever inoculations makes =
sense, but I have travelled extensively and no-one has ever asked to see =
my vaccination card.

>=20
> we're not phobic are we?  what does one need in london today?  baggy
> trousers and a mask?
>=20
> it is wise to have yellow fever innoculation if you travel in =
equatorial
> countries anywhere in the globe.  other than that, i have traveled a =
bit
> in africa, alyc, equatorial asia, strange islands, ... and have no =
other
> immunizations, meds, =85

And a while ago I went to a travel doctor and asked to be vaccinated for =
*everything* that he could. Took all of 20 minutes (and I got poked with =
a bunch of needles) but I personally think that that is a small price to =
pay for (even infinitesimally) upping the herd immunity level.

I had traveled for many years without vaccinations (with no ill =
effects), now I travel with some, because *I choose to*, not because it =
is required=85.

Basically, if you want to get vaccinated, go ahead, if you don't, don't=85=
 but using this as a reason to avoid traveling to a huge swath of the =
world is silly=85.

W

P.S: My views on vaccinations have been influenced by long discussions =
with Larry Brilliant -- if you ever get a chance to hear him speak on =
the eradication of smallox I highly recommend taking it.=20

>=20
> randy
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>=20


From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Tue Aug  9 08:42:43 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Dae Young KIM 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
Thread-Index: AQHMVqltM/uUN2fZi0GDO+UIexkmQpUUpa1A
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:43:09 +0000
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It is a different topic.  That is why I changed the subject line.

I don't think this is an IETF governance issue.  In some WGs there needs to=
 either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time allocated.  MPLS for e=
xample had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of total meeting.  =
With 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 minutes on average.  A=
lso if there was no interest at a prior meeting and not much has changed, t=
hen no time slot or a very short one or a Friday slot.  This would be up to=
 the MPLS chairs.

The routing area could also make use of Friday.  We had some overlap proble=
m trying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday.  Only roll was on =
Friday and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.

BTW - there didn't seem to be a general comment session in the routing area=
 open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on power optimization.  Other=
wise this could have been brought up (again).

Curtis

From: dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM
To: Curtis Villamizar
Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process

On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar > wrote:
Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read o=
r at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting su=
ch that they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed" pol=
ling.

One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It seems=
 like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RFC =
so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case an employer=
 was rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it presented and=
 the result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  This was counterpr=
oductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.

The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people wou=
ld commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provide=
r network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG wo=
uld provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there are auth=
ors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor interest or =
negative expressions of interest.

We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and run=
ning code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part eithe=
r.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods used by=
 other SDO along with including every half thought out feature anyone imagi=
ned during the process and no implementations.  This leads to protocols tha=
t don't work with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one=
 has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.

Curtis

You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the th=
read on how to select venues and that with diversity.

I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the governance/operation=
al structure of IETF.

If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'd =
better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to eac=
h meeting to filter out non-core members.

Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to change =
the IETF to?

--
DY

--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07612BC4SVEXDBPROD1infi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











It is a different topic.  That is why I changed the sub=
ject line.


 


I don’t think this is an IETF governance issue.  =
In some WGs there needs to either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more t=
ime allocated.  MPLS for example
 had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of total meeting.  W=
ith 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 minutes on average.&nbs=
p; Also if there was no interest at a prior meeting and not much has change=
d, then no time slot or a very short one or
 a Friday slot.  This would be up to the MPLS chairs.


 


The routing area could also make use of Friday.  We had=
 some overlap problem trying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday=
.  Only roll was on Friday
 and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.


 


BTW – there didn’t seem to be a general comment =
session in the routing area open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on=
 power optimization.  Otherwise
 this could have been brought up (again).


 


Curtis


 








From: dykim6@g=
mail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process






 


On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar =
<cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:






Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask =
"how many people read or at least thoroughly skimmed through this docu=
ment prior to the meeting such that they understand what it contains".=
  Then do the "favor/opposed" polling.



One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It =
seems like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or=
 RFC so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case a=
n employer was rewarding employees for submitting
 a draft and having it presented and the result was a lot of junk drafts fr=
om that company.  This was counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which =
this was occurring.



The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people wou=
ld commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provide=
r network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG wo=
uld provide a venue for open discussion.
  In a number of WGs there are authors who persistently promote drafts=
 with no provider or vendor interest or negative expressions of interest.


We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough co=
nsensus and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "ro=
ugh consensus" part either.  We are headed toward the design by c=
ommittee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including
 every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process and no i=
mplementations.  This leads to protocols that don't work with features=
 that no one has ever implemented or where no one has ever succeeded in get=
ting to interoperate among vendors.



Curtis








You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the th=
read on how to select venues and that with diversity.



I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the governance/operation=
al structure of IETF.



If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'd =
better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to eac=
h meeting to filter out non-core members.



Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to change =
the IETF to?

 






-- 

DY








--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07612BC4SVEXDBPROD1infi_--

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From: Ray Bellis 
To: Warren Kumari 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting complacent? Good job!)
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting	complacent? Good job!)
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On 9 Aug 2011, at 16:34, Warren Kumari wrote:

> Why is this relevant?=20
>=20
> For much of the equatorial world having yellow fever inoculations makes s=
ense, but I have travelled extensively and no-one has ever asked to see my =
vaccination card.

I meant "required for my health", not "required by local policy".

> Basically, if you want to get vaccinated, go ahead, if you don't, don't=
=85 but using this as a reason to avoid traveling to a huge swath of the wo=
rld is silly=85.

If I'm travelling to somewhere with endemic infectious diseases I'd like to=
 know about it.

Ray
 =

From randy@psg.com  Tue Aug  9 08:59:32 2011
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From: Randy Bush 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are	we	getting	complacent? Good job!)
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> If I'm travelling to somewhere with endemic infectious diseases I'd
> like to know about it.

earth

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Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process -- openness and continuity
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I have been lurking with appreciation and occasional amusement.  After =
helping create the process and participating in multiple ways for over =
40 years, I am truly empathic with all of the points of view.  Numbers =
do matter, and bigger groups are unwieldy.  Unprepared attendees are a =
drag.  I think these factors have been part of the reason for the =
emergence of design teams.  While all of these things matter, I want to =
focus and emphasize on the IETF's truly unique and outstanding heritage =
of openness.

First, the Internet architecture is open, and we've all seen enormous =
benefits.  Second, the IETF's processes are open, and we've all seen the =
power of free distribution of the documents and open attendance and =
introduction of new ideas.

In addition to these two key dimensions of openness, the fact that new =
people can enter right into the middle of the activity, both on the =
mailing lists and in the meetings, means that we are continually =
welcoming the next generation.  (And in this context, a "generation" =
might be measured in months or a couple of years, not decades.)  Many =
years ago there were some stats circulated that showed 37% were =
attending the IETF for the first time, and this statistic was =
essentially stable for several meetings.  That's a large number of new =
people.  Their average contribution may not be as high as the regular =
attendees -- though I have never seen any attempt to measure =
"contribution" -- but I have always thought this represented a very wise =
investment in our future.

Steve





On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:43 AM, Curtis Villamizar wrote:

> It is a different topic.  That is why I changed the subject line.
> =20
> I don=92t think this is an IETF governance issue.  In some WGs there =
needs to either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time allocated.  =
MPLS for example had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of =
total meeting.  With 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 =
minutes on average.  Also if there was no interest at a prior meeting =
and not much has changed, then no time slot or a very short one or a =
Friday slot.  This would be up to the MPLS chairs.
> =20
> The routing area could also make use of Friday.  We had some overlap =
problem trying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday.  Only =
roll was on Friday and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.
> =20
> BTW =96 there didn=92t seem to be a general comment session in the =
routing area open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on power =
optimization.  Otherwise this could have been brought up (again).
> =20
> Curtis
> =20
> From: dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Dae =
Young KIM
> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM
> To: Curtis Villamizar
> Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
> =20
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar =
 wrote:
> Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people =
read or at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the =
meeting such that they understand what it contains".  Then do the =
"favor/opposed" polling.
>=20
> One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It =
seems like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft =
or RFC so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case =
an employer was rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it =
presented and the result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  =
This was counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.
>=20
> The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of =
people would commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a =
significant provider network, a small set of people would agree to =
implement it, and the WG would provide a venue for open discussion.  In =
a number of WGs there are authors who persistently promote drafts with =
no provider or vendor interest or negative expressions of interest.
>=20
> We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus =
and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" =
part either.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting =
methods used by other SDO along with including every half thought out =
feature anyone imagined during the process and no implementations.  This =
leads to protocols that don't work with features that no one has ever =
implemented or where no one has ever succeeded in getting to =
interoperate among vendors.
>=20
> Curtis
>=20
> You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of =
the thread on how to select venues and that with diversity.
>=20
> I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the =
governance/operational structure of IETF.
>=20
> If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, =
you'd better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the =
applicants to each meeting to filter out non-core members.
>=20
> Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to =
change the IETF to?
> =20
> --=20
> DY
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


--Apple-Mail-95--408939282
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252


I have been lurking with appreciation and =
occasional amusement.  After helping create the process and =
participating in multiple ways for over 40 years, I am truly empathic =
with all of the points of view.  Numbers do matter, and bigger =
groups are unwieldy.  Unprepared attendees are a drag.  I =
think these factors have been part of the reason for the emergence of =
design teams.  While all of these things matter, I want to focus =
and emphasize on the IETF's truly unique and outstanding heritage of =
openness.

First, the Internet architecture is =
open, and we've all seen enormous benefits.  Second, the IETF's =
processes are open, and we've all seen the power of free distribution of =
the documents and open attendance and introduction of new =
ideas.

In addition to these two key dimensions =
of openness, the fact that new people can enter right into the middle of =
the activity, both on the mailing lists and in the meetings, means that =
we are continually welcoming the next generation.  (And in this =
context, a "generation" might be measured in months or a couple of =
years, not decades.)  Many years ago there were some stats =
circulated that showed 37% were attending the IETF for the first time, =
and this statistic was essentially stable for several meetings. =
 That's a large number of new people.  Their average =
contribution may not be as high as the regular attendees -- though I =
have never seen any attempt to measure "contribution" -- but I have =
always thought this represented a very wise investment in our =
future.

Steve


=




On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:43 AM, =
Curtis Villamizar wrote:

It is =
a different topic.  That is why I changed the subject =
line.
I =
don=92t think this is an IETF governance issue.  In some WGs there =
needs to either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time =
allocated.  MPLS for example had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours =
(I think) of total meeting.  With 6 hours, at least the =
presentations would be 15 minutes on average.  Also if there was no =
interest at a prior meeting and not much has changed, then no time slot =
or a very short one or a Friday slot.  This would be up to the MPLS =
chairs.
The =
routing area could also make use of Friday.  We had some overlap =
problem trying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday.  =
Only roll was on Friday and it seemed like that WG might be shutting =
down.
BTW =96=
 there didn=92t seem to be a general comment session in the routing area =
open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on power =
optimization.  Otherwise this could have been brought up =
(again).
Before asking =
any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read or at least =
thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting such that =
they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed" =
polling.

One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many =
junk drafts.  It seems like a number of authors just want to get =
their name on a WG draft or RFC so that they can cite it on their =
resume.  In at least one case an employer was rewarding employees =
for submitting a draft and having it presented and the result was a lot =
of junk drafts from that company.  This was counterproductive to =
the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.

The process used to be =
more streamlined because a small group of people would commit to deploy =
a simple protocol or extension on a significant provider network, a =
small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG would =
provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there are =
authors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor =
interest or negative expressions of interest.

We have lost touch =
with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and running code" and =
we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part either.  We =
are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods used by =
other SDO along with including every half thought out feature anyone =
imagined during the process and no implementations.  This leads to =
protocols that don't work with features that no one has ever implemented =
or where no one has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among =
vendors.

Curtis

You do have a point here, but this is far stretched =
off the topic of the thread on how to select venues and that with =
diversity.

I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the =
governance/operational structure of IETF.

If your elite core =
group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'd better redefine =
the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to each meeting to =
filter out non-core members.

Is this what people want? Or is this =
what you ask the leadership to change the IETF =
to?
 
-- 
DY
=

_______________________________________________
81attendees =
mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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--000e0cd379a655d8f204aa14b13a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Maybe, you're more talking about the management skill of WG chairs. Open an=
d
loose decision-making process has long or once been regarded as the winning
side of IETF.

If consensus is high enough that it may not be anymore, then perhaps it's
time someone raise a high flag to change IETF.

Other SDOs have their own operational methods which work on their own way;
IEEE, ISO, and ITU-T, etc. I'm not sure whether people or you're thinking o=
f
a change towards the line of one of these.... perhaps, not.

With the way of IETF is running, the unfortunate situation might not be
helped.

Or you might want to propose to process only drafts sanctioned by the chair=
s
and let only those names on such drafts enter the room.

But without changing the rule in that way or the other, you cannot blame
those entering the room and sitting their for hours and, to your eyes,
wasting/killing their time and only disrupting the real work.

If they are not as dumb and silly as you might think, they might have their
own reason to sit there for hours in usually uncomfortable chairs.

Pity that you have to live with so many non-sense tourists.


On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Curtis Villamizar <
cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:

>  It is a different topic.  That is why I changed the subject line.****
>
> ** **
>
> I don=92t think this is an IETF governance issue.  In some WGs there need=
s to
> either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time allocated.  MPLS for
> example had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of total meeting=
.
> With 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 minutes on average.
> Also if there was no interest at a prior meeting and not much has changed=
,
> then no time slot or a very short one or a Friday slot.  This would be up=
 to
> the MPLS chairs.****
>
> ** **
>
> The routing area could also make use of Friday.  We had some overlap
> problem trying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday.  Only roll
> was on Friday and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.****
>
> ** **
>
> BTW =96 there didn=92t seem to be a general comment session in the routin=
g area
> open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on power optimization.
> Otherwise this could have been brought up (again).****
>
> ** **
>
> Curtis****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Dae
> Young KIM
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM
> *To:* Curtis Villamizar
> *Cc:* Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process****
>
> ** **
>
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar <
> cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:****
>
> Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read
> or at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting
> such that they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed"
> polling.
>
> One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It see=
ms
> like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RFC=
 so
> that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case an employer =
was
> rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it presented and th=
e
> result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  This was
> counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.
>
> The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people
> would commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant
> provider network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and =
the
> WG would provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there a=
re
> authors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor intere=
st
> or negative expressions of interest.
>
> We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and
> running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part
> either.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods
> used by other SDO along with including every half thought out feature any=
one
> imagined during the process and no implementations.  This leads to protoc=
ols
> that don't work with features that no one has ever implemented or where n=
o
> one has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.
>
> Curtis****
>
>
> You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the
> thread on how to select venues and that with diversity.
>
> I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the
> governance/operational structure of IETF.
>
> If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'=
d
> better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to e=
ach
> meeting to filter out non-core members.
>
> Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to chang=
e
> the IETF to?
>  ****
>
> --
> DY****
>



--=20
DY

--000e0cd379a655d8f204aa14b13a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Maybe, you're more talking about the management skill of WG chairs. Ope=
n and loose decision-making process has long or once been regarded as the w=
inning side of IETF.

If consensus is high enough that it may not be =
anymore, then perhaps it's time someone raise a high flag to change IET=
F.



Other SDOs have their own operational methods which work on their own w=
ay; IEEE, ISO, and ITU-T, etc. I'm not sure whether people or you'r=
e thinking of a change towards the line of one of these.... perhaps, not.


With the way of IETF is running, the unfortunate situation might not be=
 helped.

Or you might want to propose to process only drafts sanctio=
ned by the chairs and let only those names on such drafts enter the room.


But without changing the rule in that way or the other, you cannot blam=
e those entering the room and sitting their for hours and, to your eyes, wa=
sting/killing their time and only disrupting the real work.

If they =
are not as dumb and silly as you might think, they might have their own rea=
son to sit there for hours in usually uncomfortable chairs.



Pity that you have to live with so many non-sense tourists.


=
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Curtis Villamizar <<=
a href=3D"mailto:cvillamizar@infinera.com">cvillamizar@infinera.com>=
 wrote:














It is=
 a different topic.=A0 That is why I changed the subject line.


=A0


I don=
=92t think this is an IETF governance issue.=A0 In some WGs there needs to =
either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time allocated.=A0 MPLS for =
example
 had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of total meeting.=A0 With=
 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 minutes on average.=A0 Als=
o if there was no interest at a prior meeting and not much has changed, the=
n no time slot or a very short one or
 a Friday slot.=A0 This would be up to the MPLS chairs.


=A0


The r=
outing area could also make use of Friday.=A0 We had some overlap problem t=
rying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday.=A0 Only roll was on F=
riday
 and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.

=A0


BTW =
=96 there didn=92t seem to be a general comment session in the routing area=
 open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on power optimization.=A0 Oth=
erwise
 this could have been brought up (again).


=A0


Curti=
s


=A0








From:=
 dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process<=
u>






=A0


On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar =
<cvillamiz=
ar@infinera.com> wrote:






Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask =
"how many people read or at least thoroughly skimmed through this docu=
ment prior to the meeting such that they understand what it contains".=
 =A0Then do the "favor/opposed" polling.





One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts. =A0It see=
ms like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RF=
C so that they can cite it on their resume. =A0In at least one case an empl=
oyer was rewarding employees for submitting
 a draft and having it presented and the result was a lot of junk drafts fr=
om that company. =A0This was counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which thi=
s was occurring.



The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people wou=
ld commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provide=
r network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG wo=
uld provide a venue for open discussion.
 =A0In a number of WGs there are authors who persistently promote drafts wi=
th no provider or vendor interest or negative expressions of interest.



We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough co=
nsensus and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "ro=
ugh consensus" part either. =A0We are headed toward the design by comm=
ittee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including
 every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process and no i=
mplementations. =A0This leads to protocols that don't work with feature=
s that no one has ever implemented or where no one has ever succeeded in ge=
tting to interoperate among vendors.





Curtis








You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the th=
read on how to select venues and that with diversity.



I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the governance/opera=
tional structure of IETF.



If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you=
9;d better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to=
 each meeting to filter out non-core members.



Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to change =
the IETF to?

=A0






-- 

DY












-- 
DY


--000e0cd379a655d8f204aa14b13a--

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To: Curtis Villamizar , Yoav Nir , Dae Young KIM 
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At 3:11 PM +0000 8/9/11, Curtis Villamizar wrote:

>  We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus 
> and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough 
> consensus" part either.  We are headed toward the design by 
> committee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including 
> every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process 
> and no implementations.  This leads to protocols that don't work 
> with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one has 
> ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.

And of course, weeding this out was part of the three-stage maturity 
process which we've pretty much abandoned: When it seems pretty 
stable and has reached consensus and *looks* like a good idea, 
publish as Proposed Standard.  After a while, see who has actually 
implemented it and which parts were implemented and interoperate. 
Delete everything else, publish what's left as Draft Standard.  After 
a while, repeat but with a higher test (widespread implementation and 
deployment) and publish as Standard.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
    --Groucho Marx

From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Tue Aug  9 09:59:18 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Dae Young KIM 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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I made a few points.

Maybe we can filter presentations on some criteria.

Maybe some of the WGs need more time at the meeting.

Maybe the routing area should make use of Friday.

In the prior email I suggested that some participants may be trying to adva=
nce their own career, rather than advance work which is likely to be widely=
 implemented, highly interoperable, and widely deployed.  Advancing one's o=
wn career is not necessarily dumb, but it is a different goal than that of =
IETF.

Therefore I missed the part about dumb participants.

Other SDOs are much worse in their process and the outcome of their process=
.

Curtis

From: dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:02 AM
To: Curtis Villamizar
Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process

Maybe, you're more talking about the management skill of WG chairs. Open an=
d loose decision-making process has long or once been regarded as the winni=
ng side of IETF.

If consensus is high enough that it may not be anymore, then perhaps it's t=
ime someone raise a high flag to change IETF.

Other SDOs have their own operational methods which work on their own way; =
IEEE, ISO, and ITU-T, etc. I'm not sure whether people or you're thinking o=
f a change towards the line of one of these.... perhaps, not.

With the way of IETF is running, the unfortunate situation might not be hel=
ped.

Or you might want to propose to process only drafts sanctioned by the chair=
s and let only those names on such drafts enter the room.

But without changing the rule in that way or the other, you cannot blame th=
ose entering the room and sitting their for hours and, to your eyes, wastin=
g/killing their time and only disrupting the real work.

If they are not as dumb and silly as you might think, they might have their=
 own reason to sit there for hours in usually uncomfortable chairs.

Pity that you have to live with so many non-sense tourists.


On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Curtis Villamizar > wrote:
It is a different topic.  That is why I changed the subject line.

I don't think this is an IETF governance issue.  In some WGs there needs to=
 either be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time allocated.  MPLS for e=
xample had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of total meeting.  =
With 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 minutes on average.  A=
lso if there was no interest at a prior meeting and not much has changed, t=
hen no time slot or a very short one or a Friday slot.  This would be up to=
 the MPLS chairs.

The routing area could also make use of Friday.  We had some overlap proble=
m trying to squeeze into Monday first thing to Thursday.  Only roll was on =
Friday and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.

BTW - there didn't seem to be a general comment session in the routing area=
 open meeting, only a discussion of the paper on power optimization.  Other=
wise this could have been brought up (again).

Curtis

From: dykim6@gmail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM
To: Curtis Villamizar
Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process

On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar > wrote:
Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many people read o=
r at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to the meeting su=
ch that they understand what it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed" pol=
ling.

One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It seems=
 like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or RFC =
so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case an employer=
 was rewarding employees for submitting a draft and having it presented and=
 the result was a lot of junk drafts from that company.  This was counterpr=
oductive to the IETF WGs in which this was occurring.

The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people wou=
ld commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provide=
r network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG wo=
uld provide a venue for open discussion.  In a number of WGs there are auth=
ors who persistently promote drafts with no provider or vendor interest or =
negative expressions of interest.

We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus and run=
ning code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough consensus" part eithe=
r.  We are headed toward the design by committee and voting methods used by=
 other SDO along with including every half thought out feature anyone imagi=
ned during the process and no implementations.  This leads to protocols tha=
t don't work with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one=
 has ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.

Curtis

You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the th=
read on how to select venues and that with diversity.

I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the governance/operation=
al structure of IETF.

If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'd =
better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to eac=
h meeting to filter out non-core members.

Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to change =
the IETF to?

--
DY



--
DY

--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07612C50SVEXDBPROD1infi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











I made a few points.


 


Maybe we can filter presentations on some criteria.


 


Maybe some of the WGs need more time at the meeting.


 


Maybe the routing area should make use of Friday.=



 


In the prior email I suggested that some participants may be=
 trying to advance their own career, rather than advance work which is like=
ly to be widely implemented,
 highly interoperable, and widely deployed.  Advancing one’s own=
 career is not necessarily dumb, but it is a different goal than that of IE=
TF.


 


Therefore I missed the part about dumb participants.


 


Other SDOs are much worse in their process and the outcome o=
f their process.


 


Curtis


 








From: dykim6@g=
mail.com [mailto:dykim6@gmail.com]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:02 AM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process






 


Maybe, you're more talking about the management skil=
l of WG chairs. Open and loose decision-making process has long or once bee=
n regarded as the winning side of IETF.



If consensus is high enough that it may not be anymore, then perhaps it's t=
ime someone raise a high flag to change IETF.



Other SDOs have their own operational methods which work on their own way; =
IEEE, ISO, and ITU-T, etc. I'm not sure whether people or you're thinking o=
f a change towards the line of one of these.... perhaps, not.



With the way of IETF is running, the unfortunate situation might not be hel=
ped.



Or you might want to propose to process only drafts sanctioned by the chair=
s and let only those names on such drafts enter the room.



But without changing the rule in that way or the other, you cannot blame th=
ose entering the room and sitting their for hours and, to your eyes, wastin=
g/killing their time and only disrupting the real work.



If they are not as dumb and silly as you might think, they might have their=
 own reason to sit there for hours in usually uncomfortable chairs.



Pity that you have to live with so many non-sense tourists.





On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Curtis Villamizar <cvillamizar@infinera.com> wrote:=











It is a different t=
opic.  That is why I changed the subject line.


 <=
/o:p>


I don’t think=
 this is an IETF governance issue.  In some WGs there needs to either =
be a filter (WG interest) or a lot more time allocated. 
 MPLS for example had mostly 10 minute slots and 4 hours (I think) of total=
 meeting.  With 6 hours, at least the presentations would be 15 minute=
s on average.  Also if there was no interest at a prior meeting and no=
t much has changed, then no time slot or a
 very short one or a Friday slot.  This would be up to the MPLS chairs=
.


 <=
/o:p>


The routing area co=
uld also make use of Friday.  We had some overlap problem trying to sq=
ueeze into Monday first thing to Thursday. 
 Only roll was on Friday and it seemed like that WG might be shutting down.=



 <=
/o:p>


BTW – there d=
idn’t seem to be a general comment session in the routing area open m=
eeting, only a discussion of the paper on power optimization. 
 Otherwise this could have been brought up (again).


 <=
/o:p>


Curtis<=
/o:p>


 <=
/o:p>








From:
dykim6@gmail.com =
[mailto:dykim6@gmail.=
com]
On Behalf Of Dae Young KIM

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 8:31 AM

To: Curtis Villamizar

Cc: Yoav Nir; 81attendees@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process<=
o:p>










 


On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Curtis Villamizar <cvillamizar@infinera.co=
m> wrote:






Before asking any question the WG chairs should ask "how many=
 people read or at least thoroughly skimmed through this document prior to =
the meeting such that they understand what
 it contains".  Then do the "favor/opposed" polling.


One of the problems with some of the WGs is too many junk drafts.  It =
seems like a number of authors just want to get their name on a WG draft or=
 RFC so that they can cite it on their resume.  In at least one case a=
n employer was rewarding employees for submitting
 a draft and having it presented and the result was a lot of junk drafts fr=
om that company.  This was counterproductive to the IETF WGs in which =
this was occurring.



The process used to be more streamlined because a small group of people wou=
ld commit to deploy a simple protocol or extension on a significant provide=
r network, a small set of people would agree to implement it, and the WG wo=
uld provide a venue for open discussion.
  In a number of WGs there are authors who persistently promote drafts=
 with no provider or vendor interest or negative expressions of interest.


We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough co=
nsensus and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "ro=
ugh consensus" part either.  We are headed toward the design by c=
ommittee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including
 every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process and no i=
mplementations.  This leads to protocols that don't work with features=
 that no one has ever implemented or where no one has ever succeeded in get=
ting to interoperate among vendors.



Curtis








You do have a point here, but this is far stretched off the topic of the th=
read on how to select venues and that with diversity.



I think you're raising a more fundamental issue of the governance/operation=
al structure of IETF.



If your elite core group want to do work in a more cozy environment, you'd =
better redefine the membership of IETF and scrutinize the applicants to eac=
h meeting to filter out non-core members.



Is this what people want? Or is this what you ask the leadership to change =
the IETF to?

 






--


DY






















-- 

DY








--_000_B819AC736B2D3745ADEA0C285E020CEB07612C50SVEXDBPROD1infi_--

From cvillamizar@infinera.com  Tue Aug  9 10:01:59 2011
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From: Curtis Villamizar 
To: Randall Gellens , Yoav Nir , Dae Young KIM 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
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Yes.

PS -> DS -> FS was a good process.

Interoperable implementations and deployment experience are key.

The routing area had in the past insisted on a higher criteria than the IET=
F in general which served it well.

This process rigor has been diluted.

Curtis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randall Gellens [mailto:rg+ietf@qualcomm.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:53 AM
> To: Curtis Villamizar; Yoav Nir; Dae Young KIM
> Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] casual attendees & WG process
>=20
> At 3:11 PM +0000 8/9/11, Curtis Villamizar wrote:
>=20
> >  We have lost touch with the "running code" part of "rough consensus
> > and running code" and we may not be doing well on the "rough
> > consensus" part either.  We are headed toward the design by
> > committee and voting methods used by other SDO along with including
> > every half thought out feature anyone imagined during the process
> > and no implementations.  This leads to protocols that don't work
> > with features that no one has ever implemented or where no one has
> > ever succeeded in getting to interoperate among vendors.
>=20
> And of course, weeding this out was part of the three-stage maturity
> process which we've pretty much abandoned: When it seems pretty
> stable and has reached consensus and *looks* like a good idea,
> publish as Proposed Standard.  After a while, see who has actually
> implemented it and which parts were implemented and interoperate.
> Delete everything else, publish what's left as Draft Standard.  After
> a while, repeat but with a higher test (widespread implementation and
> deployment) and publish as Standard.
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
>     --Groucho Marx

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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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At 3:31 PM +0000 8/9/11, Curtis Villamizar wrote:

>  I think this would be counterproductive.  It would increase the 
> incentive to send people just for the sake of sending more bodies.

Yes, that part is there is drive the revenue side.  But, the vast 
majority of them would be sent to "network" and have the company 
listed early in the congratulatory press release, and they'd have 
"basic entry" registration, so no WG or BOF sessions.  This reduces 
"tourists" in sessions.

>  One of the reasons IETF used to work so well is that no one cared 
> about it except the people doing real work on something.

Very true, but we can't de-commercialize the Internet, can we?


>   > -----Original Message-----
>>  From: Randall Gellens [mailto:rg+ietf@qualcomm.com]
>>  Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 5:56 PM
>>  To: John C Klensin; Curtis Villamizar
>>  Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
>>  Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we
>>  getting complacent? Good job!)
>>
>>  At 7:43 PM -0400 8/8/11, John C Klensin wrote:
>>
>>  >  the only
>>  >  thing total attendance figures are good for is the P/L
>>  >  statement.  That is legitimate and important to the IAOC, but
>>  >  has little to do with effective IETF functioning
>>  >
>>  >  Unless your point is that almost nothing we do is likely to make
>>  >  more than about 300 or 400 difference in total attendees no
>>  >  matter what we do and where we go.  If so, I'd tend to agree
>>  >  with that, at least within very broad limits, but note that a
>>  >  drop of a few hundred attendees for several meetings in a row
>>  >  could have really nasty effects on the budget.
>>
>>  So, we need a way to encourage the core of people who are interested
>>  in doing work, plus maybe also enough casual attendees that we prop
>>  up the revenue side of the budget, and for companies to pay for
>>  people to go, and while we're at it, maybe we can also mitigate the
>>  problem of rooms too crowded with "IETF tourists" for people
>>  interested in doing work to get in?  Something along the lines of:
>>
>>	- Meetings in Hawaii and other desirable locales
>>	- A lower "basic entry" registration fee which gets one in to the
>>  reception, social, and plenary
>>	- A higher "hard core" registration fee allowing unlimited entry
>>  to all WGs and BOFs
>>	- A "premier facilitator" discount for companies registering 10,
>>  20, 30 attendees
>>	- A "valiant contributor" discount on an individual registration
>>  fees based on number of RFCs published as author, editor,
>>  contributor, or acknowledgement
>>	- Press releases for each meeting with names of companies paying
>>  for people to attend, (in order of how much they paid total)
>>  congratulating them for helping progress the future of the Internet
>>
>>  --
>>  Randall Gellens
>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>  Hippogriff:  An animal (now extinct) which was half horse and half
>>  griffin.  The griffin was itself a compound creature, half lion and
>>  half eagle.  The hippogriff was actually, therefore, only one quarter
>>  eagle, which is two dollars and fifty cents in gold.  The study of
>>  zoology is full of surprises.


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.    --Dorothea

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At 8:30 AM +0300 8/9/11, Yoav Nir wrote:

>  There are working group sessions with about 8-10 people sitting in 
> the front rows and actually listening, plus 30-40 more sitting in 
> the back reading email and charging their laptops. This creates a 
> false impression of the level of interest in the working group, and 
> it also skews the feel of the room when trying to assess consensus. 
> "Who thinks we should take on this item?" 8 people out of 50 raise 
> their hand. How is the chair or AD to know that 40 of those 50 are 
> just tourists?  It looks like the group has said "meh".

At a minimum, always ask the converse question: "Who feels this is 
work is not ready, not appropriate, or not within the charter?"

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Sex is not the answer.  Sex is the question.  "Yes" is the answer.

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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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At 8:39 AM +0300 8/9/11, Yoav Nir wrote:

>  On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:56 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>>
>>	- Meetings in Hawaii and other desirable locales
>>	- A lower "basic entry" registration fee which gets one in to the
>>  reception, social, and plenary
>>	- A higher "hard core" registration fee allowing unlimited entry
>>  to all WGs and BOFs
>>	- A "premier facilitator" discount for companies registering 10,
>>  20, 30 attendees
>>	- A "valiant contributor" discount on an individual registration
>>  fees based on number of RFCs published as author, editor,
>>  contributor, or acknowledgement
>
>  I think a $50 discount per RFC is reasonable. Although we'd end up 
> paying people like Hannes and Bernard Aboba $2000 to attend.

I'm sure they'd put it to good use hosting a bar session.

>   >	- Press releases for each meeting with names of companies paying
>>  for people to attend, (in order of how much they paid total)
>>  congratulating them for helping progress the future of the Internet


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

From dworley@avaya.com  Tue Aug  9 10:19:47 2011
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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" 
To: "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:20:08 -0400
Thread-Topic: What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Comparing a few receipts, I've so far discovered:

There are always 12 dingbats in the row.

There are never duplicates on a single receipt.  This suggests that the din=
gbats are not a direct transcription of information, but rather statistical=
ly random.

One can easily stack 5 receipts (60 dingbats) and see no duplicates.  This =
suggests (via the birthday paradox) that there are more than 60^2 =3D 3600 =
dingbats that are commonly used.

My current guess is that there are 4096 dingbats representing 12 bits each,=
 and the line represents 12 * 12 =3D 144 bits that are either a hash or a d=
igital signature of the data in the hash.  The dingbats are probably to be =
visually compared by a human with a similar display that is computed by a g=
overnment device from the data on the receipt.

Curiously, on one receipt I have, the dingbat row consists of a sequence of=
 6 dingbats repeated twice, which seems to me to be very unlikely.

Dale

From ben@estacado.net  Tue Aug  9 10:31:05 2011
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To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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I asked a couple of waiters about them, and they had no idea what the =
dingbats were for. That tells me that they don't use them for anything. =
They use the barcodes for everything. That makes me wonder if the =
dingbats were put there for restaurants that didn't invest in the =
bar-code system, as some sort of alternative verification. Or maybe =
they're only used by auditors. Or in expense reimbursement.=20

On Aug 9, 2011, at 12:20 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:

> Comparing a few receipts, I've so far discovered:
>=20
> There are always 12 dingbats in the row.
>=20
> There are never duplicates on a single receipt.  This suggests that =
the dingbats are not a direct transcription of information, but rather =
statistically random.
>=20
> One can easily stack 5 receipts (60 dingbats) and see no duplicates.  =
This suggests (via the birthday paradox) that there are more than 60^2 =3D=
 3600 dingbats that are commonly used.
>=20
> My current guess is that there are 4096 dingbats representing 12 bits =
each, and the line represents 12 * 12 =3D 144 bits that are either a =
hash or a digital signature of the data in the hash.  The dingbats are =
probably to be visually compared by a human with a similar display that =
is computed by a government device from the data on the receipt.
>=20
> Curiously, on one receipt I have, the dingbat row consists of a =
sequence of 6 dingbats repeated twice, which seems to me to be very =
unlikely.
>=20
> Dale
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


From johnl@iecc.com  Tue Aug  9 10:34:38 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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> I asked a couple of waiters about them, and they had no idea what the dingbats were for. That tells me that they don't use them for anything. They use the barcodes for everything. That makes me wonder if the dingbats were put there for restaurants that didn't invest in the bar-code system, as some sort of alternative verification. Or maybe they're only used by auditors. Or in expense reimbursement.

I like the hash for audit theory.  It makes it harder to fake a receipt, 
which otherwise would be pretty easy if you're sending in scans of 
receipts, just load up gimp and cut and paste a few digits to adjust the 
amount.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

From aalain@afrinic.net  Tue Aug  9 10:45:22 2011
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To: Ray Bellis 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting	complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Ray Bellis wrote:

>=20
> On 9 Aug 2011, at 16:34, Warren Kumari wrote:
>=20
>> Why is this relevant?=20
>>=20
>> For much of the equatorial world having yellow fever inoculations =
makes sense, but I have travelled extensively and no-one has ever asked =
to see my vaccination card.
>=20
> I meant "required for my health", not "required by local policy".
>=20
>> Basically, if you want to get vaccinated, go ahead, if you don't, =
don't=85 but using this as a reason to avoid traveling to a huge swath =
of the world is silly=85.
>=20
> If I'm travelling to somewhere with endemic infectious diseases I'd =
like to know about it.


You meant Africa is a place of endemic infectious  diseases. Go tell =
people attending IGF in NAIROBI  and ICANN  in Dakar this year.

I have seen good people who attended meetings and travel to various =
places of the continent without  problem.

If you were looking for info, it is wise to  just ask. We can draft an =
I-D about  this if you prefer.

--Alain


>=20
> Ray
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>=20


From coverdale@sympatico.ca  Tue Aug  9 10:58:07 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Just to add a bit more to the mystery, I had exactly the same lunch on 3
days. On each of the 3 receipts the row of 12 dingbats is completely
different, not even a repeat of any character.

Google doesn't help much. I did a search for "Quebec City" and "dingbats",
but it just came back with a listing of all the members of the National
Assembly... (that's a Canadian joke, by the way).

...Paul

>-----Original Message-----
>From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
>On Behalf Of Worley, Dale R (Dale)
>Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:20 PM
>To: 81attendees@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant
>receipts?
>
>Comparing a few receipts, I've so far discovered:
>
>There are always 12 dingbats in the row.
>
>There are never duplicates on a single receipt.  This suggests that the
>dingbats are not a direct transcription of information, but rather
>statistically random.
>
>One can easily stack 5 receipts (60 dingbats) and see no duplicates.
>This suggests (via the birthday paradox) that there are more than 60^2 =
>3600 dingbats that are commonly used.
>
>My current guess is that there are 4096 dingbats representing 12 bits
>each, and the line represents 12 * 12 = 144 bits that are either a hash
>or a digital signature of the data in the hash.  The dingbats are
>probably to be visually compared by a human with a similar display that
>is computed by a government device from the data on the receipt.
>
>Curiously, on one receipt I have, the dingbat row consists of a sequence
>of 6 dingbats repeated twice, which seems to me to be very unlikely.
>
>Dale
>_______________________________________________
>81attendees mailing list
>81attendees@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


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To: Yoav Nir 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] divine meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:41 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
> "Who has read the draft, and is NOT a co-author or WG chair?"
> No hands go up

Yeah, this is definitely a problem.   Not sure what to do about it, =
other than blackmail.   There are so many drafts to read=85


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"Who has =
read the draft, and is NOT a co-author or WG chair?"
No hands =
go up

Yeah, this is definitely a =
problem.   Not sure what to do about it, other than blackmail. =
  There are so many drafts to =
read=85

=

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From: Ray Bellis 
To: ALAIN AINA 
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting complacent? Good job!)
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we	getting	complacent? Good job!)
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> If you were looking for info, it is wise to just ask=0A=
=0A=
which is exactly what I did ;-)=0A=
=0A=
Ray=0A=

From tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org  Tue Aug  9 11:14:05 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Ok guys, let's shed some light on this:
Found this out when I was in Quebec. It's to prevent tax evasion.
See info here: http://ladditionsvp.com/
and here in English:
http://www.revenuquebec.ca/en/centre-information/actualite/2011/2011-06-23.aspx

Kind regards and all the best, Tobias


On 09/08/11 18:58, Paul Coverdale wrote:
> Just to add a bit more to the mystery, I had exactly the same lunch on 3
> days. On each of the 3 receipts the row of 12 dingbats is completely
> different, not even a repeat of any character.
>
> Google doesn't help much. I did a search for "Quebec City" and "dingbats",
> but it just came back with a listing of all the members of the National
> Assembly... (that's a Canadian joke, by the way).
>
> ...Paul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
>> On Behalf Of Worley, Dale R (Dale)
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:20 PM
>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant
>> receipts?
>>
>> Comparing a few receipts, I've so far discovered:
>>
>> There are always 12 dingbats in the row.
>>
>> There are never duplicates on a single receipt.  This suggests that the
>> dingbats are not a direct transcription of information, but rather
>> statistically random.
>>
>> One can easily stack 5 receipts (60 dingbats) and see no duplicates.
>> This suggests (via the birthday paradox) that there are more than 60^2 =
>> 3600 dingbats that are commonly used.
>>
>> My current guess is that there are 4096 dingbats representing 12 bits
>> each, and the line represents 12 * 12 = 144 bits that are either a hash
>> or a digital signature of the data in the hash.  The dingbats are
>> probably to be visually compared by a human with a similar display that
>> is computed by a government device from the data on the receipt.
>>
>> Curiously, on one receipt I have, the dingbat row consists of a sequence
>> of 6 dingbats repeated twice, which seems to me to be very unlikely.
>>
>> Dale
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


From anthurbe@cisco.com  Tue Aug  9 11:14:43 2011
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To: Paul Coverdale 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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This appears to be mandated by the new Revenu Quebec SRM system required =
at all restaurants to eliminate "Zapper" style tax fraud, with the =
receipts encoding a digital signature and fingerprint using the bar code =
and character string.

The SRM literature I found specifically does NOT describe the =
generation, encoding or purpose of the fields in the footer, though it =
carefully describes all other aspects of the receipts.

I don't know the algorithm or how Revenu Quebec would use the data.

Andrew

On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:58 PM, Paul Coverdale wrote:

Just to add a bit more to the mystery, I had exactly the same lunch on 3
days. On each of the 3 receipts the row of 12 dingbats is completely
different, not even a repeat of any character.

Google doesn't help much. I did a search for "Quebec City" and =
"dingbats",
but it just came back with a listing of all the members of the National
Assembly... (that's a Canadian joke, by the way).

...Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
> On Behalf Of Worley, Dale R (Dale)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:20 PM
> To: 81attendees@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant
> receipts?
>=20
> Comparing a few receipts, I've so far discovered:
>=20
> There are always 12 dingbats in the row.
>=20
> There are never duplicates on a single receipt.  This suggests that =
the
> dingbats are not a direct transcription of information, but rather
> statistically random.
>=20
> One can easily stack 5 receipts (60 dingbats) and see no duplicates.
> This suggests (via the birthday paradox) that there are more than 60^2 =
=3D
> 3600 dingbats that are commonly used.
>=20
> My current guess is that there are 4096 dingbats representing 12 bits
> each, and the line represents 12 * 12 =3D 144 bits that are either a =
hash
> or a digital signature of the data in the hash.  The dingbats are
> probably to be visually compared by a human with a similar display =
that
> is computed by a government device from the data on the receipt.
>=20
> Curiously, on one receipt I have, the dingbat row consists of a =
sequence
> of 6 dingbats repeated twice, which seems to me to be very unlikely.
>=20
> Dale
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


From tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org  Tue Aug  9 11:16:05 2011
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From: Tobias Gondrom 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Ok guys. To shed some light on this: Found this out when I was in 
Quebec. It is to prevent tax evasion.

See the information here http://ladditionsvp.com/
and here in English: 
http://www.revenuquebec.ca/en/centre-information/actualite/2011/2011-06-23.aspx

Kind regards, Tobias




On 09/08/11 18:58, Paul Coverdale wrote:
> Just to add a bit more to the mystery, I had exactly the same lunch on 3
> days. On each of the 3 receipts the row of 12 dingbats is completely
> different, not even a repeat of any character.
>
> Google doesn't help much. I did a search for "Quebec City" and "dingbats",
> but it just came back with a listing of all the members of the National
> Assembly... (that's a Canadian joke, by the way).
>
> ...Paul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org]
>> On Behalf Of Worley, Dale R (Dale)
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:20 PM
>> To: 81attendees@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant
>> receipts?
>>
>> Comparing a few receipts, I've so far discovered:
>>
>> There are always 12 dingbats in the row.
>>
>> There are never duplicates on a single receipt.  This suggests that the
>> dingbats are not a direct transcription of information, but rather
>> statistically random.
>>
>> One can easily stack 5 receipts (60 dingbats) and see no duplicates.
>> This suggests (via the birthday paradox) that there are more than 60^2 =
>> 3600 dingbats that are commonly used.
>>
>> My current guess is that there are 4096 dingbats representing 12 bits
>> each, and the line represents 12 * 12 = 144 bits that are either a hash
>> or a digital signature of the data in the hash.  The dingbats are
>> probably to be visually compared by a human with a similar display that
>> is computed by a government device from the data on the receipt.
>>
>> Curiously, on one receipt I have, the dingbat row consists of a sequence
>> of 6 dingbats repeated twice, which seems to me to be very unlikely.
>>
>> Dale
>> _______________________________________________
>> 81attendees mailing list
>> 81attendees@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees


From touch@isi.edu  Tue Aug  9 11:35:31 2011
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From: Joe Touch 
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On 8/9/2011 11:00 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:41 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
>> "Who has read the draft, and is NOT a co-author or WG chair?"
>> No hands go up
>
> Yeah, this is definitely a problem. Not sure what to do about it, other
> than blackmail. There are so many drafts to read…

Well, if there's no interest in a draft in a WG, then it can (and 
should) be able to proceed as individual.

Perhaps that's the disincentive. Or just a workable alternative.

Joe

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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" 
To: Tobias Gondrom , "81attendees@ietf.org" <81attendees@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:46:57 -0400
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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> From: Tobias Gondrom [tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org]
>=20
> Ok guys, let's shed some light on this:
> Found this out when I was in Quebec. It's to prevent tax evasion.
> See info here: http://ladditionsvp.com/
> and here in English:
> http://www.revenuquebec.ca/en/centre-information/actualite/2011/2011-06-2=
3.aspx

And somewhere on Revenue Quebec's web site I found an image with
annotations about the various parts of the receipt that are generated
by the SRM.  But nothing explaining the dingbats.

(I notice that Revenue Quebec isn't bothered by publishing tax
information in English!)

Dale

From mellon@fugue.com  Tue Aug  9 11:51:54 2011
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On Aug 9, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
> And somewhere on Revenue Quebec's web site I found an image with
> annotations about the various parts of the receipt that are generated
> by the SRM.  But nothing explaining the dingbats.

Quite possibly it is just a binary buffer dump, possibly due to a bug in =
the cash register software, or was put in for debugging.


--Apple-Mail=_0BC9AB3D-5099-4C6D-A714-A7C286A70578
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And somewhere =
on Revenue Quebec's web site I found an image with
annotations about =
the various parts of the receipt that are generated
by the SRM. =
 But nothing explaining the =
dingbats.

Quite possibly it is just a =
binary buffer dump, possibly due to a bug in the cash register software, =
or was put in for debugging.

=

--Apple-Mail=_0BC9AB3D-5099-4C6D-A714-A7C286A70578--

From johnl@iecc.com  Tue Aug  9 12:09:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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> Quite possibly it is just a binary buffer dump, possibly due to a bug in the cash register software, or was put in for debugging.

Considering that it appears in exactly the same place on every resto 
receipt I got in Quebec, from many different restos, that would be a heck 
of a bug.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

From richard.barnes@gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 12:11:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Not addressing the dingbats, but as far as the barcodes:

The barcodes are apparently in the ISO-standard PDF417 format:


It appears you get meaningful data if you do the following:
1. Decode PDF417 as text
2. Base64-decode

Using that technique, I was able to match several fields from
different receipts:
-- MEV ID number (binary)
-- Transaction number ("FACTURE#"/"ADDITION#") (ASCII)
-- Table number (ASCII)
-- Server name (ASCII)
-- TPS amount (binary)
-- TVQ amount (binary)
-- Total amount (binary)

In all of the three cases I looked at, the first intelligible field
(the MEV ID) appears at position 0x40 in the binary.  This would be
consistent with the overall code having the form (digest, data), if
the digest were 512 bits long, say SHA512.  Chopping of the first 0x40
octets and hashing the remainder with SHA-512 did not give the right
hash values.   But then again, you wouldn't expect that if the hash
were an HMAC instead of just a digest; it would make a lot of sense
for the machine to compute the HMAC with a secret key that the tax
department knows.

FWIW,
--Richard



On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:35 PM, John R. Levine  wrote:
>> I asked a couple of waiters about them, and they had no idea what the
>> dingbats were for. That tells me that they don't use them for anything. =
They
>> use the barcodes for everything. That makes me wonder if the dingbats we=
re
>> put there for restaurants that didn't invest in the bar-code system, as =
some
>> sort of alternative verification. Or maybe they're only used by auditors=
. Or
>> in expense reimbursement.
>
> I like the hash for audit theory. =A0It makes it harder to fake a receipt=
,
> which otherwise would be pretty easy if you're sending in scans of receip=
ts,
> just load up gimp and cut and paste a few digits to adjust the amount.
>
> Regards,
> John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for
> Dummies",
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>

From versteb@cisco.com  Tue Aug  9 12:28:14 2011
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Thread-Topic: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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References: <9B3D0397-56CB-4270-9787-DCB67544D857@estacado.net> 
From: "Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)" 
To: "Richard Barnes" , "John R. Levine" 
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2011 19:28:42.0940 (UTC) FILETIME=[8C9D3FC0:01CC56CA]
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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The tax guy's worst nightmare - a bunch of techies in town for a =
conference trying to reverse engineer his enforcement tools.=20

bvs


-----Original Message-----
From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] =
On Behalf Of Richard Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 3:12 PM
To: John R. Levine
Cc: 81attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant =
receipts?

Not addressing the dingbats, but as far as the barcodes:

The barcodes are apparently in the ISO-standard PDF417 format:


It appears you get meaningful data if you do the following:
1. Decode PDF417 as text
2. Base64-decode

Using that technique, I was able to match several fields from
different receipts:
-- MEV ID number (binary)
-- Transaction number ("FACTURE#"/"ADDITION#") (ASCII)
-- Table number (ASCII)
-- Server name (ASCII)
-- TPS amount (binary)
-- TVQ amount (binary)
-- Total amount (binary)

In all of the three cases I looked at, the first intelligible field
(the MEV ID) appears at position 0x40 in the binary.  This would be
consistent with the overall code having the form (digest, data), if
the digest were 512 bits long, say SHA512.  Chopping of the first 0x40
octets and hashing the remainder with SHA-512 did not give the right
hash values.   But then again, you wouldn't expect that if the hash
were an HMAC instead of just a digest; it would make a lot of sense
for the machine to compute the HMAC with a secret key that the tax
department knows.

FWIW,
--Richard



On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:35 PM, John R. Levine  wrote:
>> I asked a couple of waiters about them, and they had no idea what the
>> dingbats were for. That tells me that they don't use them for =
anything. They
>> use the barcodes for everything. That makes me wonder if the dingbats =
were
>> put there for restaurants that didn't invest in the bar-code system, =
as some
>> sort of alternative verification. Or maybe they're only used by =
auditors. Or
>> in expense reimbursement.
>
> I like the hash for audit theory. =A0It makes it harder to fake a =
receipt,
> which otherwise would be pretty easy if you're sending in scans of =
receipts,
> just load up gimp and cut and paste a few digits to adjust the amount.
>
> Regards,
> John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for
> Dummies",
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. =
http://jl.ly
> _______________________________________________
> 81attendees mailing list
> 81attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees
>
_______________________________________________
81attendees mailing list
81attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/81attendees

From dworley@avaya.com  Tue Aug  9 12:49:23 2011
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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" 
To: Richard Barnes , "John R. Levine" 
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:47:37 -0400
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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________________________________________
From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=
 Of Richard Barnes [richard.barnes@gmail.com]

But then again, you wouldn't expect that if the hash
were an HMAC instead of just a digest; it would make a lot of sense
for the machine to compute the HMAC with a secret key that the tax
department knows.
_______________________________________________

I believe I read on some explanatory page that the SRM-generated
data was "digitally signed", which would suggest an HMAC generated
with a secret key.

Dale

From richard.barnes@gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 12:53:21 2011
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Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:53:49 -0400
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From: Richard Barnes 
To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Anyone got one of these machines that we could take apart to try to
get at the key?  Just to verify our findings, of course. 



On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale)  wrote:
> ________________________________________
> From: 81attendees-bounces@ietf.org [81attendees-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard Barnes [richard.barnes@gmail.com]
>
> But then again, you wouldn't expect that if the hash
> were an HMAC instead of just a digest; it would make a lot of sense
> for the machine to compute the HMAC with a secret key that the tax
> department knows.
> _______________________________________________
>
> I believe I read on some explanatory page that the SRM-generated
> data was "digitally signed", which would suggest an HMAC generated
> with a secret key.
>
> Dale
>

From john-ietf@jck.com  Wed Aug 10 06:50:58 2011
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From: John C Klensin 
To: Curtis Villamizar , Dae Young KIM 
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] diverse meeting locations (was: are we getting complacent? Good job!)
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--On Tuesday, August 09, 2011 14:49 +0000 Curtis Villamizar
 wrote:

> John,
> 
> I agree with you but there is no easy statistic to get at such
> as how many active WGs didn't meet because the chairs did not
> attend and how many WG draft authors didn't attend.  All I was
> saying is that there was nothing obvious in the attendance
> statistics that we can easily obtain.

I certainly agree with that.

   john




From petithug@acm.org  Wed Aug 10 11:11:32 2011
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It seems that some minutes still have this problem (e.g. samrg and p2prg)

On 08/08/2011 02:11 PM, Glen wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 02:46:59PM -0400, Novikov, Lev wrote:
>> Looks like http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/ only has a
>> handful of slides left.
>> Lev
> 
> We had a brief issue with the directory, but that should all be resolved
> at this point.   We are doing a hand check just to be sure we didn't miss
> anything, but everything should be in place.
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience,
> Glen

- -- 
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Professional email: petithug@acm.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
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From dworley@avaya.com  Fri Aug 19 20:47:49 2011
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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" 
To: Richard Barnes , "John R. Levine" 
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 23:48:41 -0400
Thread-Topic: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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Subject: Re: [81attendees] What is it at the bottom of restaurant receipts?
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I went through the math, and it looks like there are 256 symbols in
the set of dingbats.

I did a maximum-likelihood calculation, or rather, a Bayesian analysis
assuming that all alphabet sizes that are powers of 2 are a-priori
equally likely, then looking at a "large" set of dingbats, seeing
the pattern of duplications among them, and computing a-posteriori
probabilities of the alphabet size.  (This assumes that the dingbats
are statistically random.)

I had to reconstruct the formula for "If you have N symbols, and draw
from them randomly n times, allowing duplicates, the resulting
multiset will be a partition of n.  Given that partition, what is the
probability of that partition resulting, as a function of N?"

Throwing away some factors which are independent of N, which don't
affect the Bayes Rule calculation, the resulting probability is a
function only of N, n, and the number of parts in the partition, k:
P =3D descendingfactorial(N, k)/N**n.

Taking 5 slips that were perfectly readable, there were 60 symbols,
which included 3 triplets, one duplicate, and 49 unique symbols:

60 =3D 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + (49)*1

Plugging this into the formula gives:

         n         ln(p)
        64   -61.867
       128   -46.607
       256   -44.610
       512   -46.457
      1024   -49.890
      2048   -54.051
      4096   -58.562
      8192   -63.245
     16384   -68.013

So it looks like there are 256 symbols, and they carry 8 bits of
information each, which isn't surprising.

Checking the Unicode charts, almost all of the symbols are on the page
U+22xx, "Mathematical symbols".  I haven't tracked down the rest, some
of which are seriously obscure, but some seem to be sans-serif Hebrew.
I am guessing that the symbols not in U+22xx are to replace some
symbols on that page that are too much like others.

So the dingbats contain 96 bits.

I still favor the idea that they are some sort of keyed hash of the
data in the barcode, but I can't figure out how it would be used
operationally, since a Revenue Quebec bar-code reader could easily
read a keyed hash and verify the signature.  It has to be compared by
eye with another display in the same format.

And then there's a receipt whose 12 symbols are two repetitions of a
sequence of 6 symbols.  This is so incredibly unlikely that there must
be something wrong with it.

Dale