From nobody Mon Nov 3 17:15:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700921A1AF4 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2014 17:15:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dra_4E2x7dXi for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2014 17:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f51.google.com (mail-wg0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4584E1A1B35 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2014 17:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id l18so12305059wgh.38 for ; Mon, 03 Nov 2014 17:15:08 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LH10QMfCy7+310V+HWpeDlUBUib/i2mnLTMVV+Z/nFk=; b=avqudq5W3+dWIFLVDk93nSwKjwrLCm5yFNleW7OPzVSIY6ebNBwR5EgR1fkWv8K2OB NBnovIuR47smt6DW2oMZduQZs2tI+siuyVrJI6bzJnUQP5/ABMp1x1T+QUwkOQZAcXcq rS6EclDMKnDXjsUzSKfVQt7QVauuFNY4OjuH2JCzYozHHEhTO8TfsQoJvUliAnRNuXm7 vjZzx+35TxfSrDNj6qeL2s8NzBv2QEd3NWZJBci1OpGkjLc0iSrwFJgKo/ZE5AdpUPK2 ZzK76jefzoGu6jUaVQmA220bcLeLLxDplJ95HF5YkcRgSZQiRE4LMqOGysMNtl33cEiU 32yw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkCcY43SwxaCSmUFY+ThqixAdoeHfLY1Tdz50cy3SkhLs+GCGJctI3mNF9Wz4ddb16wmNNY X-Received: by 10.194.76.202 with SMTP id m10mr29585085wjw.42.1415063708728; Mon, 03 Nov 2014 17:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.21] (9.6.69.91.rev.sfr.net. [91.69.6.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm10509607wiy.19.2014.11.03.17.15.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Nov 2014 17:15:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5458289A.2050903@jitsi.org> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 02:15:06 +0100 From: Emil Ivov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bo Burman , "avtext@ietf.org" References: <20141027234901.3692.59843.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/h_tjceZ_1gHGYpOKFu1tUN8HyW8 Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause-05.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:15:16 -0000 Hey Bo, On 28.10.14, 13:05, Bo Burman wrote: > This version contains changes related to what I believe to be our > common understanding so far on timing and reliability of unsolicited > PAUSED (TMMBN=0), as discussed on this list. I think it is already > pretty far progressed, but will need some more discussion until fully > concluded. There are a few Editor's notes in places where I expect > that more text may be needed. Thanks for making the changes. I think that's already much better. Two remaining comments: * It would be good to at least suggest a retransmission interval for unsolicited PAUSE (right now draft only talks about retransmission count). Given that the whole point of doing this is to get a timely notification, I'd suggest something like: ... delivered, unless the stream was already in paused state (Section 6.3). In order to achieve a higher level of usefulness than receiver timeouts, it is RECOMMENDED/suggested that the rate of these retransmissions roughly matches that of the RTP packets that were generated by the SSRC being PAUSEd. (or something along those lines). * Regarding the explicit ACKs: I think performance-wise, your idea of using existing loss stats, provides a reasonable solution that should suffice in most cases. So the main reason for considering explicit ACKs would be to simplify (at least some) implementations. Personally I don't have a strong preference on this, but if we do decide to define it, then echo-ing the TMMBN back to its sender sounds like a simple way to achieve this. Emil > Cheers, Bo > >> -----Original Message----- From: I-D-Announce >> [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: den 28 oktober 2014 00:49 To: >> i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause-05.txt >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport >> Extensions Working Group of the IETF. >> >> Title : RTP Stream Pause and Resume Authors : Bo >> Burman Azam Akram Roni Even Magnus Westerlund Filename : >> draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause-05.txt Pages : 49 Date >> : 2014-10-27 >> >> Abstract: With the increased popularity of real-time multimedia >> applications, it is desirable to provide good control of resource >> usage, and users also demand more control over communication >> sessions. This document describes how a receiver in a multimedia >> conversation can pause and resume incoming data from a sender by >> sending real-time feedback messages when using Real-time Transport >> Protocol (RTP) for real time data transport. This document extends >> the Codec Control Messages (CCM) RTCP feedback package by >> explicitly allowing and describing specific use of existing CCM >> messages and adding a group of new real- time feedback messages >> used to pause and resume RTP data streams. This document updates >> RFC 5104. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause/ >> >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause-05 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-stream-pause-05 >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are >> available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft >> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > _______________________________________________ avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > -- https://jitsi.org From nobody Wed Nov 5 07:28:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CE51A88EB for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2014 07:28:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=1, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id egMNu1eR5-QM for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2014 07:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C3E51A8947 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2014 07:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f791c6d00000617b-6e-545a41fe8182 Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5A.C4.24955.EF14A545; Wed, 5 Nov 2014 16:27:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB105.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.247]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 5 Nov 2014 16:27:57 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPqy8qMhC3H7taqUapdGaNZ63mxJxSmLjA Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2014 15:27:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140729131517.29461.34635.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140729131517.29461.34635.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje4/x6gQg7ZnshYf791gdWD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRtvU4oIl2hVHfk5lbmCcq9TFyMkhIWAisXFqIxOELSZx4d56 ti5GLg4hgSOMElOP/mSCcBYzSiyZCVHFJqAhMX/HXUYQW0RAXeLO9AtsILawQJDEmZdrWSHi wRLH3/1hhrCNJP6ceQVmswioSKx/ewashlfAV2LirLtgvUICjhLHlq1mAbE5BZwkWrr3gs1n FJCVuP/9HlicWUBc4taT+VCXCkgs2XOeGcIWlXj5+B8rhK0ocXX6ciaIeh2JBbs/sUHY2hLL Fr5mhtgrKHFy5hOWCYyis5CMnYWkZRaSlllIWhYwsqxiFC1OLU7KTTcy1kstykwuLs7P08tL LdnECIyJg1t+q+5gvPzG8RCjAAejEg/vxkmRIUKsiWXFlbmHGKU5WJTEeReemxcsJJCeWJKa nZpakFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgdF0z5mkr1eX5XUW8QeJMEdP+jPhwLY7jXJtfYz6CtVuvzpu r5u28ub+xi3nmVI/srUUP7NK1RC5Gf7JPaagSIXj7eT/ZUIr59nfq98iuVqmIC3fx/F2sULC n9cOb2Zta+5yuFzuf/DnGSOOpZs26noffp7wsdvjSOfDot9f70S6mV7gS1S+ZqnEUpyRaKjF XFScCABEU66ragIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/heVMoplmYLWwty-QTLyhB1O44RU Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:28:03 -0000 I've reviewed this draft and have the following comments: 1) I'm lacking a discussion on why this solution is chosen, with splicing p= eriod information in RTP Header Extension and RTCP. What are the pro's/con'= s with it compared to other possible signaling solutions, external to RTP? 2) In section 3.1, I think the current specification of the splicing out NT= P timestamp, seconds part, is broken, being just 24 bits. Assume that the s= plicing in point has an NTP timestamp seconds of (hex) 0xXXYYYYYY (XX being= an arbitrary 8-bit number, YYYYYY a 24-bit number). If the difference betw= een YYYYYY and 0x1000000 denotes a shorter time than the intended splicing = interval, it will cause an increment in XX in the splicing out point NTP ti= me. This invalidates the assumption that the upper 8 bits for the splicing = out point are the same as the splicing in point. YYYYYY can in general be a= rbitrarily close to 0xFFFFFF, definitely not allowing a splicing interval o= f up to 2^25 seconds. For example, YYYYYY can be 0xFFFFFA, which causes a w= rap in XX after only 6 seconds. It seems to me that the current text half-w= ay assumes that the splicing out point is a delta time, which would in fact= allow splicing times of up to 2^25 seconds. I suggest splicing out is inst= ead specified as a delta time to the splicing in point (effectively being t= he length of the splicing period), in which case the above problems can be = avoided. However, any carry digit from the sum of the splicing in and splic= ing period fractional parts must of course be used to adjust the seconds pa= rt of the resulting sum constituting the splicing out point. It could also = be considered if RTCP splicing notification (in section 3.2) should then, f= or consistency, use the same splicing period instead of splicing out timest= amp, but I have no specific preference there. 3) For section 3.2, is the best semantic and functional match a new RTCP re= port packet (see RFC 5968)? Was, for example, a new RTCP source description= (SDES) type, describing a time period in the source RTP stream that can be= replaced by a middle-node, considered? If it was considered and rejected, = why? 4) In section 5, third and fourth paragraphs: it is somewhat opaque to me h= ow RR from downstream receivers can help the main RTP sender and substituti= ve RTP sender learn that splicing did not occur? Downstream receivers will = only see and report on the mixer's SSRC in either case, right? I think some= clarification may be beneficial. 5) Are there any multicast/broadcast considerations that should be describe= d, or will the scenario only work strictly point-to-point between (each of)= the main RTP sender and the mixer, and the substitutive RTP sender and the= mixer? Editorial nits: I) Section 2, second paragraph: "... more than once to against the possible= packet loss" --> "... more than once to mitigate the possible packet loss = " II) Section 3.1, second paragraph: consumption --> assumption (if that text= is kept after needed changes from 2 above) III) Section 3.1, next-to-last paragraph: "could not include" --> "must not= include" IV) Section 4, title: Reduing --> Reducing V) Section 6, second video m-line is lacking a=3Drtpmap Cheers, Bo > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-draft= s@ietf.org > Sent: den 29 juli 2014 15:15 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.= txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Workin= g Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : RTP/RTCP Extension for RTP Splicing Notificatio= n > Authors : Jinwei Xia > Roni Even > Rachel Huang > Lingli Deng > Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.txt > Pages : 12 > Date : 2014-07-28 >=20 > Abstract: > Content splicing is a process that replaces the content of a main > multimedia stream with other multimedia content, and delivers the > substitutive multimedia content to the receivers for a period of > time. The RTP mixer is designed to handle RTP splicing in [RFC6828], > but how the RTP mixer knows when to start and end the splicing is > still unspecified. >=20 > This memo defines two RTP/RTCP extensions to indicate the splicing > related information to the RTP mixer: an RTP header extension that > conveys the information in-band and an RTCP packet that conveys the > information out-of-band. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are > available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Fri Nov 7 17:50:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CFA1A00F9 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2014 17:50:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.094 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, GB_SUMOF=1, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.594, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCZ1C8-L3XFy for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2014 17:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B19D1A00E1 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2014 17:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLJ93947; Sat, 08 Nov 2014 01:50:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 8 Nov 2014 01:50:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 8 Nov 2014 09:50:20 +0800 From: Xiajinwei To: "'Bo Burman'" , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPqy85vqdXGhD5oEelS3g6tj41tpxSPauAgAHGU1A= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 01:50:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140729131517.29461.34635.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.46.144.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/iEhc2s9kiCDGmO5Ymo8fphzvY6s Subject: [avtext] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEktRCBBY3Rpb246IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtYXZ0?= =?gb2312?b?ZXh0LXNwbGljaW5nLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbi0wMC50eHQ=?= X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 01:50:36 -0000 SGkgQm8sDQoNClNvcnJ5IGZvciBteSBsYXRlbmN5LCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VlIG15IGFuc3dlcnMgaW5s aW5lLg0KDQo+IC0tLS0t08q8/tStvP4tLS0tLQ0KPiC3orz+yMs6IGF2dGV4dCBbbWFpbHRvOmF2 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from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 96560F60BD0FC for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 21:30:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id sA9LUNmQ017545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 22:30:23 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.25]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 22:30:23 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Slides for AVTEXT session Thread-Index: Ac/8ZF2LSEH4ME/+TRKgXvRGc/0J3g== Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 21:30:22 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B274AD9@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/hErgnfX2AJmEM_mNEdEUlwvlAbg Subject: [avtext] Slides for AVTEXT session X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 21:30:28 -0000 (As WG cochair) Presenters, please can you ensure that the chairs receive your slides by lu= nchtime Monday so we can get them posted well in advance of the meeting. Regards Keith= From nobody Sun Nov 9 18:07:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008861A8850 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 18:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_INCRS=2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aV6al0e55L9U for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 18:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E513E1A8821 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 18:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id m15so7646702wgh.21 for ; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 18:07:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=aFQMK3sqwVM8p6MIDPTjAvQIztsLkANYyogmW7Jivj0=; b=I+24ZI1Wxtm1B1JvnMtaGtAJVLGHXuCuBy3jRYwFz47a+hVJWRFakpyFI/vuwk6Wrp qnVID8l9o8pGl0olxF6J1EeEZKKijvGw7LMTiQMNZBc2SpaZVMYfzeoOP7p7RgkOUJcm RQrakzjx1FnOkp6OXqU9jAMVpk4I3tXI6nHXGiePIXCzTIuhxmN92QWOZF1ood3qbRfm OK1CFzHDtIGYs6AZtKGs1VF4MZmjYDR11HZmx8YHLn6PkSmUWbzkbfYCEMenBaKbGU+x 834ge7Ti6T1sRq3eDxks0TBKxqSN7cKu2BA4FPXQ5SrvDWPyvjwd3KC+29kO6jdzHjpM FbVg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.52.3 with SMTP id p3mr38856306wjo.93.1415585231696; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 18:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.127.38 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 18:07:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 11:07:11 +0900 Message-ID: From: Stephen Botzko To: "avtext@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b8744d8e27a150507779e1d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/VAEzfLA80H3zwXDKy89d8XROzlU Subject: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 02:07:16 -0000 --047d7b8744d8e27a150507779e1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 In general there are a few spots where the English needs to be improved. One example is >>> But in RTP splicing scenario described in [RFC6828], the mixer has to decode the RTP packets, search and solve the Splicing Interval inside the payloads. >>> In addition to the missing "the" ("But in the RTP...", the meaning of "solve the Splicing Inverval" is not obvious. >>> The need for such processing enhances the workload of the mixer and limits the size of RTP sessions the mixer can support. >>> Presumably the processing i*ncreases* the workload, and limits the* number* of RTP sessions. >>> Most terminology defined in "Content Splicing for RTP Sessions" [RFC6828] applies to this document except the following one. Splicing Interval: A set of certain metadata that allows the mixer to know when to start and end the RTP splicing. The information consists of a couple of NTP-format timestamps on the splicing in point and on the splicing out point. >>> I think the intent is to say that the terminology in RFC 6828 applies, and in addition... The phrase "a couple of NTP-format timestamps" should not be used in a formal definition. I think the definition of slicing interval could be simplified somewhat - defining it as the NTP timestamps for the Splicing-In Point and Splicing-Out Point per RFC 6828. >>> To enable the mixer to get the substitutive content before the splicing starts, the main RTP sender MUST send the Splicing Interval far enough in advance. Alternatively, the main RTP sender can estimate when to send the Splicing Interval based on the round-trip time (RTT) following the mechanisms in section 6.4.1 of [RFC3550] when the mixer sends RTCP RR to the main sender. >>> The normative MUST in the first sentence is problematic, since the main RTP sender has no way of knowing how much lead time the mixer needs. So it is indefinite. The "alternatively" sentence seems wrong to me - a mixer might well need longer than the RTT to accomplish the splicing. Although the MUST is worded as applying, it also puts a constraint on the receiving mixer. In any event, you can't have an alternative to a MUST. One approach is to establish a definitive bound (e.g., "send the Splicing Interval at least N seconds before the Splice-In Time"). This is admittedly a bit arbitrary. Or perhaps a second message can be created to allow the mixer to tell the sender how much time it needs. The indefinite timing issue shows up in throughout this document. Simply pointing out in multiple places that the splice interval packets might be missed, and that they need to be received in time for the mixer and the substitutive sender to process them seems weak. It would be better to ensure that the sender knows how much lead time it needs to allow, and has some minimum guidance (SHOULDs) on how many times the splice intervals should be sent via RTP and RTCP. >>> The substitutive sender also needs to learn the Splicing Interval from the main RTP sender in advance, and thus estimates when to transfer the substitutive content to the mixer. The Splicing Interval could be transmitted from the main RTP sender to the substitutive content using some out-of-band mechanisms, the details how to achieve that are beyond the scope of this memo. >>> Why is this out-of-scope? The substitutive sender also has an RTP session established with the mixer. Why can't the splicing interval be sent to the substitutive sender by the mixer by using an RTP / RTCP payload extension defined in this document. It seems wrong not to provide the complete protocol. >>> When the substitutive RTP sender gets the Splicing Interval, it must prepare the substitutive stream. The RTP timestamp of the first substitutive RTP packet that would be presented on the receivers MUST correspond to the same time instant as the former NTP timestamp in the Splicing Interval... When the splicing will end, the RTP timestamp of the first main RTP packet that would be presented on the receivers MUST correspond to the same time instant as the latter NTP timestamp in the Splicing Interval. >>> There should be some recognition here that these RTP packets could be lost. Also, since the MUST statements are in the passive voice, it is not clear which device is responsible for the implementing the two MUSTs. Is it intended to be the substitutive sender or the mixer? Please use the active voice. I am wondering if there are missing MUSTs or SHOULDs in this section: -Are there any MUSTS that need to be imposed on the main sender and the substitutive sender that related to decodability? (e.g., that the start and end of the splice must be on frame boundaries?). -Are there any SHOULDS that relate to RTP payloads that use interleaved or overlapped payloads? -Are there any MUSTS or SHOULDS related to scalable codecs? >>> After the mixer intercepts the RTP header extension and derives the Splicing Interval, it will generate its own stream and could not include the RTP header extension in outgoing packets to reduce header overhead. >>> The meaning of "could not" is unclear. "SHOULD NOT"? However, since there is a goal to make splicing undetectable to downstream receiver, perhaps this should be a MUST NOT. BR Stephen Botzko --047d7b8744d8e27a150507779e1d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In general there are a few spot= s where the English needs to be improved.=C2=A0 One example is
>>>
But in RTP =
splicing
   scenario described in [RFC6828], the mixer has to decode the RTP
   packets, search and solve the Splicing Interval inside the payloads.
>>>
In addition to the missing "the" ("But i=
n the RTP...", the meaning of "solve the Splicing Inverval" =
is not obvious.
>>> <=
/span>
   The =
need for such processing enhances the workload of the mixer and
   limits the size of RTP sessions the mixer can support.
>>>
Presumably the processing increases the workload, an=
d limits the number of RTP sessions.

>>>
=

   Most terminolog=
y defined in "Content Splicing for RTP Sessions"
   [RFC6828] applies to this document except the following one.

   Splicing Interval:=20

      A set of certain metadata that allows the mixer to know when to
      start and end the RTP splicing. The information consists of a
      couple of NTP-format timestamps on the splicing in point and on
      the splicing out point. 
>>>
I think the i=
ntent is to say that the terminology in RFC 6828 applies, and in addition..=
.
The phrase "a couple of NTP-fo=
rmat timestamps" should not be used in a formal definition.
I think the definition of slicing interval coul=
d be simplified somewhat - defining it as the NTP timestamps for the Splici=
ng-In Point and Splicing-Out Point per RFC 6828. 

>>>=

 To enable
   the mixer to get the substitutive content before the splicing starts,
   the main RTP sender MUST send the Splicing Interval far enough in
   advance. Alternatively, the main RTP sender can estimate when to send
   the Splicing Interval based on the round-trip time (RTT) following
   the mechanisms in section 6.4.1 of [RFC3550] when the mixer sends
   RTCP RR to the main sender.
>>>
The normative=
 MUST in the first sentence is problematic, since the main RTP sender has n=
o way of knowing how much lead time the mixer needs.  So it is indefinite.<=
/font>
The "alternatively" sentenc=
e seems wrong to me - a mixer might well need longer than the RTT to accomp=
lish the splicing.  Although the MUST is worded as applying, it also puts a=
 constraint on the receiving mixer.  In any event, you can't have an al=
ternative to a MUST.
One approach is =
to establish a definitive bound (e.g., "send the Splicing Interval at =
least N seconds before the Splice-In Time").  This is admittedly a bit=
 arbitrary.  Or perhaps a second message can be created to allow the mixer =
to tell the sender how much time it needs.
The indefinite timing issue shows up in throughout this document. Sim=
ply pointing out in multiple places that the splice interval packets might =
be missed, and that they need to be received in time for the mixer and the =
substitutive sender to process them seems weak.  It would be better to ensu=
re that the sender knows how much lead time it needs to allow, and has some=
 minimum guidance (SHOULDs) on how many times the splice intervals should b=
e sent via RTP and RTCP.

>>>
   The substitutive sender also needs to learn the Splicing Inte=
rval
   from the main RTP sender in advance, and thus estimates when to
   transfer the substitutive content to the mixer. The Splicing Interval
   could be transmitted from the main RTP sender to the substitutive
   content using some out-of-band mechanisms, the details how to achieve
   that are beyond the scope of this memo.
>>>
W=
hy is this out-of-scope?  The substitutive sender also has an RTP session e=
stablished with the mixer.  Why can't the splicing interval be sent to =
the substitutive sender by the mixer by using an RTP / RTCP payload extensi=
on defined in this document.
It seems=
 wrong not to provide the complete protocol.
>>>
   When the substitutive RTP sender gets the Splicing Interv=
al, it must
   prepare the substitutive stream. The RTP timestamp of the first
   substitutive RTP packet that would be presented on the receivers MUST
   correspond to the same time instant as the former NTP timestamp in
   the Splicing Interval...

   When the splicing will end, the RTP timestamp of the first main RTP
   packet that would be presented on the receivers MUST correspond to
   the same time instant as the latter NTP timestamp in the Splicing
   Interval.
=
>>>
=
There should be some recognitio=
n here that these RTP packets could be lost.
Also, since the MUST statements are in the passive voice, it is not=
 clear which device is responsible for the implementing the two MUSTs.  Is =
it intended to be the substitutive sender or the mixer?  Please use the act=
ive voice.
I am wondering if there ar=
e missing MUSTs or SHOULDs in this section:
-Are there any MUSTS that need to be imposed on the main sender and =
the substitutive sender that related to decodability? (e.g., that the start=
 and end of the splice must be on frame boundaries?).
-Are there any SHOULDS that relate to RTP payloads that us=
e interleaved or overlapped payloads?
-Are there any MUSTS or SHOULDS related to scalable codecs?
>>>
   After the mixer intercepts the RTP header=
 extension and derives the
   Splicing Interval, it will generate its own stream and could not
   include the RTP header extension in outgoing packets to reduce header
   overhead.
=
>>>
=
The meaning of "could not&=
quot; is unclear.  "SHOULD NOT"?  However, since there is a goal =
to make splicing undetectable to downstream receiver, perhaps this should b=
e a MUST NOT.
BR
Stephen Botzko

=
--047d7b8744d8e27a150507779e1d-- From nobody Tue Nov 11 12:50:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7101ABD3B for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:50:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.594] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rwZDfHgoqRvl for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41BFF1ABD3D for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 978A0FAD6FCC9 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:50:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id sABKoIrk009832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 21:50:18 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.25]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 21:50:18 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Slides for AVTEXT meeting Thread-Index: Ac/98RkUSBUStzJ7S++0f/tE6H14DQ== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:50:17 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B2780AE@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/4849ZqgHC2zHGu9zXgruJqcb9js Subject: [avtext] Slides for AVTEXT meeting X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:50:23 -0000 (As WG cochair) Please note that all the slides for todays meeting are now all on the meeti= ng materials site, and indeed most have been there since yesterday. Regards Keith= From nobody Tue Nov 11 20:07:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3944D1AC42B for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:07:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VA3qp20sGLZe for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209i.appriver.com [8.31.233.124]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45DD31A88F1 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:07:27 -0800 (PST) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 11/11/2014 11:07:25 PM X-Policy: vidyo.com - vidyo.com X-Primary: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Note: SecureTide Build: 11/7/2014 8:53:38 PM UTC X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-204/SG:2 11/11/2014 11:07:20 PM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 67.231.149.202, Ugly c=0.792014 p=-0.947634 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-3019-c X-Note-419: 0 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1329 of 1329 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1329/SG:1 11/11/2014 11:07:18 PM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNITED STATES->LOCAL->UNITED STATES-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 67.231.149.202 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com X-Note-Return-Path: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G241 G242 G243 G244 G248 G249 G361 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [67.231.149.202] (HELO mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTP id 170638892 for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:25 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0073109.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with SMTP id sAC41vlY008562 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:25 -0500 Received: from mail.vidyo.com ([162.209.16.214]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 1qku1w81wc-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 23:07:25 -0500 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 22:07:23 -0600 From: Jonathan Lennox To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Confirmation of consensus: Milestone for, and adoption of, RTP header extension for SDES items Thread-Index: AQHP/i4pqp1Cp+MYeU+0cK06rHMjWA== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:07:22 +0000 Message-ID: <24A128F2-839C-4DF9-89DC-9DBA5BA6EA37@vidyo.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [31.133.151.161] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.13.68, 1.0.28, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-11-12_03:2014-11-11,2014-11-12,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1402240000 definitions=main-1411120035 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/T0hXKxMzOr-Gob8j7x2wsIfAAvc Subject: [avtext] Confirmation of consensus: Milestone for, and adoption of, RTP header extension for SDES items X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:07:30 -0000 Hello, all =97 In the working group session today, we had strong consensus to create a mil= estone for an RTP header extension for SDES items, and to adopt draft-weste= rlund-avtext-sdes-hdr-ext-03 as the starting point for the working group do= cument. This is a call for confirmation from the mailing list: for those not in the= meeting (either in the room or remotely), please indicate either your supp= ort or objection to this course of action. Thanks! Jonathan Lennox AVTEXT Co-chair From nobody Wed Nov 12 08:49:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE3A1A8AA5 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 08:49:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EYr5VCrNhLut for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 08:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED5671A895E for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 08:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=51739 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Xob6F-0000qZ-S2 for avtext@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:48:56 +0000 From: Colin Perkins Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:48:52 +0000 To: avtext@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/Jm3BjpTkOEpM9CnucT5rehk9cJg Subject: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:49:01 -0000 Hi, The chairs asked for review of the splicing-notification draft. I=92ve = read the earlier individual versions. Here are my comments on this = version: The draft defines a mechanism to convey splicing-in and splicing-out = times for a stream using the RFC 6828 RTP splicing technique. The = mechanism defined is a combination of a new RTP header extension and a = new RTCP packet type. RFC 6828 requires some mechanism to convey the = timing of the slicing interval, and this draft looks like a technically = reasonable way of doing so. This draft only considers how to convey the splicing interval from the = sender to the splicing point, and not how to convey it to source of the = substitutive content. I think this is acceptable. The substitutive = sender needs clock synchronisation with the main sender, and to = coordinate what content is to be spliced in, in addition to knowing when = the splicing should occur. This suggests some detailed out-of-band = signalling is needed, rather than a simple in-band time signal such as = this. I understand there is an MPEG-specific mechanism for conveying splicing = times in-band in the media. This can clearly be used for MPEG transport = sent in RTP, but the mechanism in the draft is more general since it can = work with any RTP payload format. It also doesn=92t require the splicer = to parse the RTP payload when using MPEG transport. Both these seem like = advantages. Bo Burman sent comments about the use of the 24-bit splicing-out = timestamp in the proposed RTP header extension. I agree that the text in = the draft about this timestamp is incorrect and needs to be corrected, = but think the timestamp is actually unambiguous given the specified = constraints on the duration of the splicing period. That said, Bo=92s = proposal to use a delta timestamp would also work. The draft says nothing about how often the header extension should be = sent. I think that=92s okay. It does have guidelines for how early to = send it, although these would be better in Section 3.1 than their = current place in Section 2. End of section 3.2 =93When the mixer intercepts the RTCP splicing = notification message, it MAY NOT forward the message=94 ought to be = =93=85SHOULD NOT forward=85=94? The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should perhaps = be reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. Is the mechanism = sufficient to handle splicing of bundled media? (e.g., if audio and = video are sent bundled, and you want to splice in a replacement for just = the audio) --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Wed Nov 12 16:56:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC301A0163 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.594] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8kUjVCd9P_k9 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B774A1A0089 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 0F9CCEA5A371E for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:55:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id sAD0u0m5028323 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 01:56:00 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.25]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 01:56:00 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 Thread-Index: AQHP/piTToFPn1cK8U+6QUEYwOys55xduylQ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:55:59 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B2796C5@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/T9QkjXLvVKAC0YZ6a_TGveo-Nic Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:56:06 -0000 (As WG cochair) So we now have three reviews of this document (from Colin, Bo and Steve). I would like the editors to respond to each of the reviews on list, and see= k consensus on major issues in updating the document. I assume Roni Even will provides some assistance in addressing the more edi= torial "use of english" aspects of the document. Regards Keith=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Colin Perkins > Sent: 12 November 2014 16:49 > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > The chairs asked for review of the splicing-notification=20 > draft. I've read the earlier individual versions. Here are my=20 > comments on this version: >=20 > The draft defines a mechanism to convey splicing-in and=20 > splicing-out times for a stream using the RFC 6828 RTP=20 > splicing technique. The mechanism defined is a combination of=20 > a new RTP header extension and a new RTCP packet type. RFC=20 > 6828 requires some mechanism to convey the timing of the=20 > slicing interval, and this draft looks like a technically=20 > reasonable way of doing so. >=20 > This draft only considers how to convey the splicing interval=20 > from the sender to the splicing point, and not how to convey=20 > it to source of the substitutive content. I think this is=20 > acceptable. The substitutive sender needs clock=20 > synchronisation with the main sender, and to coordinate what=20 > content is to be spliced in, in addition to knowing when the=20 > splicing should occur. This suggests some detailed=20 > out-of-band signalling is needed, rather than a simple=20 > in-band time signal such as this. >=20 > I understand there is an MPEG-specific mechanism for=20 > conveying splicing times in-band in the media. This can=20 > clearly be used for MPEG transport sent in RTP, but the=20 > mechanism in the draft is more general since it can work with=20 > any RTP payload format. It also doesn't require the splicer=20 > to parse the RTP payload when using MPEG transport. Both=20 > these seem like advantages. >=20 > Bo Burman sent comments about the use of the 24-bit=20 > splicing-out timestamp in the proposed RTP header extension.=20 > I agree that the text in the draft about this timestamp is=20 > incorrect and needs to be corrected, but think the timestamp=20 > is actually unambiguous given the specified constraints on=20 > the duration of the splicing period. That said, Bo's proposal=20 > to use a delta timestamp would also work. >=20 > The draft says nothing about how often the header extension=20 > should be sent. I think that's okay. It does have guidelines=20 > for how early to send it, although these would be better in=20 > Section 3.1 than their current place in Section 2. >=20 > End of section 3.2 "When the mixer intercepts the RTCP=20 > splicing notification message, it MAY NOT forward the=20 > message" ought to be "...SHOULD NOT forward..."? >=20 > The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but=20 > should perhaps be reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP.=20 > Is the mechanism sufficient to handle splicing of bundled=20 > media? (e.g., if audio and video are sent bundled, and you=20 > want to splice in a replacement for just the audio) >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > = From nobody Wed Nov 12 21:51:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676A41A1BBB for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 21:51:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.494 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.594, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RxUFBlWKIrbs for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 21:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0F4F1A1B7F for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2014 21:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLO62787; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 05:51:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 05:51:48 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 13:51:39 +0800 From: Xiajinwei To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 Thread-Index: AQHP/piULxVJRb6C7ECCkvPlvF8XtZxdNd+AgAC3XmA= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 05:51:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B2796C5@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B2796C5@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.152.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/Fvk11TfonwvEFnFPSfih2IaHFyA Subject: [avtext] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFJldmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWF2dGV4?= =?gb2312?b?dC1zcGxpY2luZy1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24tMDA=?= X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 05:51:53 -0000 Q2hhaXJzLA0KDQpUaGFua3MsIHdlIHdpbGwgcmVzcG9uZCB0aGUgcmV2aWV3cyBhbmQgdXBkYXRl IGEgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gdG8gYWRkcmVzcyB0aGVtIHNvb24uDQoNClRoYW5rcw0KDQpKaW53ZWkN Cg0KLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQq3orz+yMs6IGF2dGV4dCBbbWFpbHRvOmF2dGV4dC1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSC0+rHtIERSQUdFLCBLZWl0aCAoS2VpdGgpDQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAxNMTq MTHUwjEzyNUgODo1Ng0KytW8/sjLOiBhdnRleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6IFJlOiBbYXZ0ZXh0 XSBSZXZpZXcgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1hdnRleHQtc3BsaWNpbmctbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uLTAwDQoN CihBcyBXRyBjb2NoYWlyKQ0KDQpTbyB3ZSBub3cgaGF2ZSB0aHJlZSByZXZpZXdzIG9mIHRoaXMg ZG9jdW1lbnQgKGZyb20gQ29saW4sIEJvIGFuZCBTdGV2ZSkuDQoNCkkgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0aGUg ZWRpdG9ycyB0byByZXNwb25kIHRvIGVhY2ggb2YgdGhlIHJldmlld3Mgb24gbGlzdCwgYW5kIHNl ZWsgY29uc2Vuc3VzIG9uIG1ham9yIGlzc3VlcyBpbiB1cGRhdGluZyB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoN 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ZW8gYXJlIHNlbnQgYnVuZGxlZCwgYW5kIHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIHNwbGljZSBpbiANCj4gYSByZXBs YWNlbWVudCBmb3IganVzdCB0aGUgYXVkaW8pDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IENvbGluIFBl cmtpbnMNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly9jc3BlcmtpbnMub3JnLw0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gYXZ0ZXh0IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdA0KPiBhdnRleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9hdnRleHQNCj4gDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KYXZ0ZXh0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KYXZ0ZXh0QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2F2dGV4dA0K From nobody Fri Nov 14 04:04:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14C01A0022; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:04:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FmyfN_GlLxeS; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A191E1A0013; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:04:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.7.4 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20141114120437.1314.39335.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:04:37 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/b4JscSZHHgUO3X5_otAob7FpBvg Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:04:40 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Taxonomy of Grouping Semantics and Mechanisms for Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Sources Authors : Jonathan Lennox Kevin Gross Suhas Nandakumar Gonzalo Salgueiro Bo Burman Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2014-11-14 Abstract: The terminology about, and associations among, Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) sources can be complex and somewhat opaque. This document describes a number of existing and proposed relationships among RTP sources, and attempts to define common terminology for discussing protocol entities and their relationships. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Nov 14 04:08:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD491A000A for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:08:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6J5CFMIN7_X for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:08:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E273A1A0032 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 04:08:39 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79e66d000000ff1-12-5465f0c5e554 Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3E.4A.04081.5C0F5645; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 13:08:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB105.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.247]) by ESESSHC011.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 13:08:37 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM1j3qUZq/0dEuretdLchgJxJxgBnng Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:08:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20141114120437.1314.39335.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20141114120437.1314.39335.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7RD6khBo0dxhYf791gdWD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxuHr99kKlohWnLg1k7mBcZlAFyMnh4SAicTxiRuZIGwxiQv3 1rN1MXJxCAkcYZTYuPQoC4SzhFFiZ8dvZpAqNgENifk77jKC2CIC6hJ3pl9gA7GFBYIkOn72 s0LEgyVObWplh7CNJI7cmQEU5+BgEVCV6H0LtphXwFfi9b1NjCBhIQEHiW2TWEDCnAKOEn0r JoFNYRSQlbj//R5YnFlAXOLWk/lQdwpILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4StKHF1+nImiHodiQW7P7FB 2NoSyxa+ZoZYKyhxcuYTlgmMorOQjJ2FpGUWkpZZSFoWMLKsYhQtTi1Oyk03MtJLLcpMLi7O z9PLSy3ZxAiMiINbfhvsYHz53PEQowAHoxIPr0FBaogQa2JZcWXuIUZpDhYlcd6F5+YFCwmk J5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamDsF/jDf/fefKmeXMHMaNPnfjFJqlm3uFpkJ2y+qZ3U I/tnasaSU7wuh20M3/qZRFRXtG29dqnuXZiKr3fMg/gNhskXf8y8e33LjEv3V8RcvZbHc3zi 9/7pVyJmx27uvFweeOTGp/YEKZel4SvvRXD7hnpYii61PLXGgud0j8/Ju2uYPm/bO9VJiaU4 I9FQi7moOBEAhzWEQ2kCAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/KseSeB4WQubhk1Ihcw8MLuBzLYk Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:08:43 -0000 As was requested at the AVTEXT meeting, here is a version that includes the= changes agreed there, and some additional editorial changes: o Changed section 3.5, removing SST-SS/MS and MST-SS/MS, replacing them with SRST, MRST, and MRMT. o Updated section 3.8 to align with terminology changes in section 3.5. o Added a new section 4.12, describing the term Multimedia Conference. o Changed reference from I-D to now published RFC 7273. o Editorial improvements and clarifications. Cheers, Bo > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-draft= s@ietf.org > Sent: den 14 november 2014 02:05 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.= txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Workin= g Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : A Taxonomy of Grouping Semantics and Mechanisms= for Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Sources > Authors : Jonathan Lennox > Kevin Gross > Suhas Nandakumar > Gonzalo Salgueiro > Bo Burman > Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > Pages : 42 > Date : 2014-11-14 >=20 > Abstract: > The terminology about, and associations among, Real-Time Transport > Protocol (RTP) sources can be complex and somewhat opaque. This > document describes a number of existing and proposed relationships > among RTP sources, and attempts to define common terminology for > discussing protocol entities and their relationships. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonom= y-03 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are > available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Fri Nov 14 09:32:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBDD1A1B51 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:32:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.594] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mRKnZ-4OeGRV for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 451241A1B5D for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D12C56144D8DB for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:31:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id sAEHVlXg025374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 18:31:48 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.25]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 14 Nov 2014 18:31:47 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM2TU9IvAskwUumiAHVoVNISJxgYKPw Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:31:47 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/eMA5aNEeMBUrcc3FMXJXBGCoLXI Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:32:19 -0000 (As WG cochair)=20 This is to start a working group last call on draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-groupin= g-taxonomy-03. To cater for the end of the IETF meeting, and for various national holidays= , this working group last call will last three weeks. Therefore please comment on this document by Friday 5th December 2014. Please send comments to the working group list. It is helpful to give some assessment of the nature of your comment, as to = whether you regard it as editorial, minor technical, or a rather more major= flaw. Regards Keith -----Original Message----- From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@= ietf.org Sent: 14 November 2014 12:05 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.tx= t A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working = Group of the IETF. Title : A Taxonomy of Grouping Semantics and Mechanisms f= or Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Sources Authors : Jonathan Lennox Kevin Gross Suhas Nandakumar Gonzalo Salgueiro Bo Burman Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2014-11-14 Abstract: The terminology about, and associations among, Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) sources can be complex and somewhat opaque. This document describes a number of existing and proposed relationships among RTP sources, and attempts to define common terminology for discussing protocol entities and their relationships. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-= 03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ avtext mailing list avtext@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Sat Nov 15 13:57:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F67F1A888F for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:57:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5XR17jMeOUX3 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0718.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:718]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C27EE1A8873 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from CY1PR0701MB1273.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.160.149.16) by CY1PR0701MB1257.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.160.149.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.16.15; Sat, 15 Nov 2014 21:56:32 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.160.149.19) by CY1PR0701MB1273.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.160.149.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.16.15; Sat, 15 Nov 2014 21:56:30 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.149.19]) by CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.149.19]) with mapi id 15.01.0016.006; Sat, 15 Nov 2014 21:56:30 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM2TU9IvAskwUumiAHVoVNISJxgYKPwgAFXOoA= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 21:56:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.174.124.226] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1273;UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1273; x-forefront-prvs: 03965EFC76 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(51704005)(377424004)(199003)(189002)(24454002)(479174003)(97736003)(120916001)(15975445006)(99396003)(122556002)(2501002)(110136001)(87936001)(19580405001)(19580395003)(21056001)(101416001)(92566001)(15202345003)(2656002)(92726001)(46102003)(86362001)(66066001)(230783001)(20776003)(64706001)(50986999)(76176999)(4396001)(54356999)(36756003)(99286002)(2351001)(107046002)(95666004)(106356001)(105586002)(40100003)(106116001)(77156002)(31966008)(77096003)(62966003)(42262002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1273; H:CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1257; X-OriginatorOrg: stewe.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/DhQOpZP12ezcXG939OxK31cYb9Y Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 21:57:00 -0000 Hi, I read through this draft once more, and have a few remaining comments (a few others were previously communicated to Bo in private and are adequately addressed). 1. Section 2.1.2, Characteristics. Suggest to add a characteristic: =B3The nature of the media capture may impose constraints on the clock handling in some of the future steps. For example, many audio Video Capture devices are not completely free in selecting the sample rate.=B2 2. Section 2.1.4, mixing I think the language at the top of page 9 is a bit misleading. In many (most? all?) video related cases, the =B3selection=B2 is dealt with in the coded or compressed domain; that is, what is being switched are Encoded Streams and not Raw Streams. In the remaining video cases, one certainly cannot disregard timing here (see below). I=B9m also not sure that in an audio mixer it would be =B3Raw Streams=B2 th= at are being mixed. Certainly, a useful audio mixer is timing-aware, and in that case it would mix multiple Source Streams into a resulting Source Stream, rather than multiple Raw Streams into a resulting Source Stream. 3. Section 2.1.10, use of =B3redundancy" Many media coding formats allow to include redundancy--be it in the form of in-media FEC like what is available in opus and ITU video codecs, or source-coding based error resilience redundancy (like intra macro blocks in any modern video video coding). Perhaps it could be made clearer that =B3without additional redundancy=B2 explicitly excludes these techniques--i= n other words, the term redundancy here refers exclusively to redundancy added through FEC, duplication, re-transmission and similar RTP-based tools. Perhaps best would be to make it clear that most suitable Media Encoders add some redundancy into Encoded Streams to make them cope better with inevitable losses of RTP, but that there are in addition ways (discussed later) to add further redundancy protecting the RTP stream itself (rather than the Encoded Stream). 4. Section 2.1.11, =B3Media Redundancy=B2 For anyone who worked on joint source-channel coding and optimization, the term =B3Media Redundancy=B2 is not intuitive here; in fact, many would consider it plainly inappropriate. The redundancy introduced in this section is added on the transport and generally protects transport units, namely sequences of RTP packets (that it also happens to protect the Encoded Stream carried in the RTP Stream=B2 is a wanted side effect.) I had a short discussion about that term with Bo. He said that a lot of mobile folks would find =B3Transport Redundancy=B2 also incomplete, as many folks would associate such term with radio layer stuff. Perhaps =B3RTP-based Redundancy=B2? 5. 2.1.18, result of a failed checksum test Bo and I had a discussion about that as well, and I=B9m happy to see that the harsh language of previous drafts is gone (in previous drafts, packets that fail checksum tests are dropped, period--ignoring things like UDP-lite). Perhaps it may be worth mentioning that sensible system designs either drop packets, or flag the questionable packets in the resulting Received RTP Stream somehow so to alarm a Media Decoder about the possible corrupt state. (That said, the media decoder needs to be error tolerant anyway, as in bit error prone networks the chance of a packet with passed UDP checksum still including bit errors is quite high. 6. 2.1.21 =B3Media Repair=B2 This section title has a similar problem as =B3Media Redundancy. Most join= t source-channel coding folks would associate with the term =B3media repair= =B2 things like error concealment, interpolation, ...) and not the application of FEC that is being sent outside of the Encoded Stream. So different terminology is needed, and it should be aligned with the outcome of the =B3Media Redundancy=B2 discussion. Further, what really is repaired here i= s the received RTP Stream itself and not the Received Source Stream; at least not directly. So I guess, the right way to express this would be as follows: RTP Stream Repair is the Transformation that takes as input one or more received Source RRP Streams and received Redundancy RTP Streams, and produces one or more Received RTP Streams that are as close to the sent Source RTP Streams as possible (utilizing FEC repair, retransmission, whatever).=B2 7. 2.2.1 End Point and editor=B9s note Remove the note, and pick one (soon). 8. Section 3, header change section title to =B3Concepts of Inter-Relations=B2 (add the =B3of=B2= ) Overall, I find this section (not its subsections) overly abstract and also hard to read, but have no suggestions to improve it. Regards, Stephan =20 On 11/14/14, 7:31, "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" wrote: >(As WG cochair)=20 > >This is to start a working group last call on >draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03. > >To cater for the end of the IETF meeting, and for various national >holidays, this working group last call will last three weeks. > >Therefore please comment on this document by Friday 5th December 2014. > >Please send comments to the working group list. > >It is helpful to give some assessment of the nature of your comment, as >to whether you regard it as editorial, minor technical, or a rather more >major flaw. > >Regards > >Keith > >-----Original Message----- >From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >internet-drafts@ietf.org >Sent: 14 November 2014 12:05 >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >Cc: avtext@ietf.org >Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: >draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions >Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : A Taxonomy of Grouping Semantics and Mechanisms >for Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Sources > Authors : Jonathan Lennox > Kevin Gross > Suhas Nandakumar > Gonzalo Salgueiro > Bo Burman > Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > Pages : 42 > Date : 2014-11-14 > >Abstract: > The terminology about, and associations among, Real-Time Transport > Protocol (RTP) sources can be complex and somewhat opaque. This > document describes a number of existing and proposed relationships > among RTP sources, and attempts to define common terminology for > discussing protocol entities and their relationships. > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy/ > >There's also a htmlized version available at: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 > >A diff from the previous version is available at: >http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy= -0 >3 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >tools.ietf.org. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >_______________________________________________ >avtext mailing list >avtext@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > >_______________________________________________ >avtext mailing list >avtext@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Tue Nov 18 09:07:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5583E1A1B14 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:07:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sseDt_Pj7VnN for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0116.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.116]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30E511A1A2A for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.160.149.19) by CY1PR0701MB1275.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.160.149.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.16.15; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:06:12 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.149.19]) by CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.149.19]) with mapi id 15.01.0016.006; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:06:12 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM2TU9IvAskwUumiAHVoVNISJxgYKPwgAFXOoCABGXegA== Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:06:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: stewe.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/k-BspKzYkozDRm1aXqBCs_He2oI Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:07:05 -0000 T25lIG1vcmWhpg0KOS4gU2VjdGlvbiAzLjUgZGVmaW5lcyB0aGUgdGhyZWUgbmV3IGNhdGVnb3Jp ZXMgZm9yIGxheWVyZWQgdHJhbnNtaXNzaW9uDQooTVJTVCwgTVJNVCwgYW5kIFNSU1QsIGFzIFsu Li4gT24gYSBbc2luZ2xlL211bHRpcGxlXSAiVHJhbnNwb3J0W3NdIi4NClRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIG1l IKGwTWVkaWEgVHJhbnNwb3J0W3NdobEuDQpUaGFua3MsDQpTdGVwaGFuDQoNCk9uIDExLzE1LzE0 LCAxMzo1NiwgIlN0ZXBoYW4gV2VuZ2VyIiA8c3Rld2VAc3Rld2Uub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkhp 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RlRQIGF0Og0KPj5mdHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzLw0KPj4NCj4+X19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+YXZ0ZXh0IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj5hdnRleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hdnRleHQNCj4+DQo+Pl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+PmF2dGV4dCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+YXZ0ZXh0QGlldGYu b3JnDQo+Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYXZ0ZXh0DQo+DQo+ X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5hdnRleHQg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+YXZ0ZXh0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hdnRleHQNCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 19 01:47:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAE21ACFD7 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 01:47:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.794 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.794 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.594, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZaF4lCIPcbWj for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 01:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44DB01A1A40 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 01:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOY79560; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:47:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:47:01 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 17:46:54 +0800 From: "Huangyihong (Rachel)" To: Stephen Botzko , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 Thread-Index: AQHP/IsSVsK5DOpdzkq+QmcgLzCJrpxkV49Q Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:46:53 +0000 Message-ID: <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252636@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.144] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252636nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/8xKTwrU3gWtFiU45DngFNtEEuj0 Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 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[194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D52401A8A16 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 16:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLV11770; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:39:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:39:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:39:21 +0800 From: "Huangyihong (Rachel)" To: Colin Perkins , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 Thread-Index: AQHP/piTsMXdbx6I9U+GXqyq9hnnlZxkjKUw Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:39:20 +0000 Message-ID: <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252771@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.144] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/6yu28mR6Ei97h1tu-cF-1hZNTyQ Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:39:37 -0000 Hi Colin, Thank you so much for you careful review. See some of my replies inline ple= ase. BR, Rachel > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Colin Perkins > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:49 AM > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > The chairs asked for review of the splicing-notification draft. I've read= the > earlier individual versions. Here are my comments on this version: >=20 > The draft defines a mechanism to convey splicing-in and splicing-out time= s for a > stream using the RFC 6828 RTP splicing technique. The mechanism defined i= s a > combination of a new RTP header extension and a new RTCP packet type. RFC > 6828 requires some mechanism to convey the timing of the slicing interval= , and > this draft looks like a technically reasonable way of doing so. [Rachel] Thank you. >=20 > This draft only considers how to convey the splicing interval from the se= nder to > the splicing point, and not how to convey it to source of the substitutiv= e > content. I think this is acceptable. The substitutive sender needs clock > synchronisation with the main sender, and to coordinate what content is t= o be > spliced in, in addition to knowing when the splicing should occur. This s= uggests > some detailed out-of-band signalling is needed, rather than a simple in-b= and > time signal such as this. >=20 > I understand there is an MPEG-specific mechanism for conveying splicing t= imes > in-band in the media. This can clearly be used for MPEG transport sent in= RTP, > but the mechanism in the draft is more general since it can work with any= RTP > payload format. It also doesn't require the splicer to parse the RTP payl= oad > when using MPEG transport. Both these seem like advantages. [Rachel]: Exactly. >=20 > Bo Burman sent comments about the use of the 24-bit splicing-out timestam= p > in the proposed RTP header extension. I agree that the text in the draft = about > this timestamp is incorrect and needs to be corrected, but think the time= stamp > is actually unambiguous given the specified constraints on the duration o= f the > splicing period. That said, Bo's proposal to use a delta timestamp would = also > work. [Rachel]: We'll add some clarifications on this. >=20 > The draft says nothing about how often the header extension should be sen= t. I > think that's okay. It does have guidelines for how early to send it, alth= ough > these would be better in Section 3.1 than their current place in Section = 2. [Rachel]: Okay, will do. >=20 > End of section 3.2 "When the mixer intercepts the RTCP splicing notificat= ion > message, it MAY NOT forward the message" ought to be "...SHOULD NOT > forward..."? [Rachel]: How about "MUST NOT"? >=20 > The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should perhaps = be > reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. Is the mechanism sufficient t= o > handle splicing of bundled media? (e.g., if audio and video are sent bund= led, > and you want to splice in a replacement for just the audio) [Rachel]: I'm not quite familiar with BUNDLE. But doesn't the BUNDLE only d= eal with the unicast streams? For splicing, it's a multicast solution, and = it's not using RFC3264 (offer/answer). So we think BUNDLE is not relevant. >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Thu Nov 20 00:44:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B9A1A010C for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:44:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q4YbeBSeuZBK for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 788BB1A0111 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 00:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=58532 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XrNM0-0004u7-Fi; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:44:40 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252771@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:44:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22D0FEA1-55F9-4A1C-8B12-D1A37AA245B2@csperkins.org> References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252771@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> To: "Huangyihong (Rachel)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/VO1J5US1XxkPPtswcqyyj2g-LBQ Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:44:52 -0000 Hi Rachel, On 20 Nov 2014, at 00:39, Huangyihong (Rachel) = wrote: > Hi Colin, >=20 > Thank you so much for you careful review. See some of my replies = inline please. >=20 > BR, > Rachel >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Colin = Perkins >> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:49 AM >> To: avtext@ietf.org >> Subject: [avtext] Review of = draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> The chairs asked for review of the splicing-notification draft. I've = read the >> earlier individual versions. Here are my comments on this version: >>=20 >> The draft defines a mechanism to convey splicing-in and splicing-out = times for a >> stream using the RFC 6828 RTP splicing technique. The mechanism = defined is a >> combination of a new RTP header extension and a new RTCP packet type. = RFC >> 6828 requires some mechanism to convey the timing of the slicing = interval, and >> this draft looks like a technically reasonable way of doing so. >=20 > [Rachel] Thank you. >>=20 >> This draft only considers how to convey the splicing interval from = the sender to >> the splicing point, and not how to convey it to source of the = substitutive >> content. I think this is acceptable. The substitutive sender needs = clock >> synchronisation with the main sender, and to coordinate what content = is to be >> spliced in, in addition to knowing when the splicing should occur. = This suggests >> some detailed out-of-band signalling is needed, rather than a simple = in-band >> time signal such as this. >>=20 >> I understand there is an MPEG-specific mechanism for conveying = splicing times >> in-band in the media. This can clearly be used for MPEG transport = sent in RTP, >> but the mechanism in the draft is more general since it can work with = any RTP >> payload format. It also doesn't require the splicer to parse the RTP = payload >> when using MPEG transport. Both these seem like advantages. >=20 > [Rachel]: Exactly. >=20 >>=20 >> Bo Burman sent comments about the use of the 24-bit splicing-out = timestamp >> in the proposed RTP header extension. I agree that the text in the = draft about >> this timestamp is incorrect and needs to be corrected, but think the = timestamp >> is actually unambiguous given the specified constraints on the = duration of the >> splicing period. That said, Bo's proposal to use a delta timestamp = would also >> work. >=20 > [Rachel]: We'll add some clarifications on this. >=20 >>=20 >> The draft says nothing about how often the header extension should be = sent. I >> think that's okay. It does have guidelines for how early to send it, = although >> these would be better in Section 3.1 than their current place in = Section 2. >=20 > [Rachel]: Okay, will do. >=20 >>=20 >> End of section 3.2 "When the mixer intercepts the RTCP splicing = notification >> message, it MAY NOT forward the message" ought to be "...SHOULD NOT >> forward..."? >=20 > [Rachel]: How about =93MUST NOT"? I don=92t think the recommendation needs to be that strong, since = nothing breaks if the splicing notification is forwarded by a mixer = (it=92s just a minor information leakage). Using MUST NOT would work, = but I think SHOULD NOT is closer to the intended semantic. >> The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should = perhaps be >> reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. Is the mechanism = sufficient to >> handle splicing of bundled media? (e.g., if audio and video are sent = bundled, >> and you want to splice in a replacement for just the audio) >=20 > [Rachel]: I'm not quite familiar with BUNDLE. But doesn't the BUNDLE = only deal with the unicast streams? For splicing, it's a multicast = solution, and it's not using RFC3264 (offer/answer). So we think BUNDLE = is not relevant. There=92s nothing to stop you splicing unicast content=85=20 --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Thu Nov 20 08:58:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6C01A1B2A for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:58:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UnEKqv9WFvaM for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209i.appriver.com [8.31.233.124]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6F371A1A19 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 08:57:59 -0800 (PST) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 11/20/2014 11:57:52 AM X-Policy: vidyo.com - vidyo.com X-Policy: vidyo.com - vidyo.com X-Primary: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Note: SecureTide Build: 11/17/2014 7:36:22 PM UTC X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-244/SG:2 11/20/2014 11:57:24 AM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 67.231.149.202, Ugly c=0.765798 p=-0.972749 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-2687-c X-Note-419: 0 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1329 of 1329 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1329/SG:1 11/20/2014 11:57:43 AM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNITED STATES->LOCAL->UNITED STATES-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 67.231.149.202 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com X-Note-Return-Path: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G241 G242 G243 G244 G248 G249 G361 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [67.231.149.202] (HELO mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTP id 172963275; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:57:52 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0073109.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with SMTP id sAKGvptJ007404; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:57:52 -0500 Received: from mail.vidyo.com ([162.209.16.214]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 1qn2nm1mth-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:57:52 -0500 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:57:51 -0600 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Colin Perkins Thread-Topic: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 Thread-Index: AQHQBOKz6kvNWXPeukywU2isALpmQJxqIQyA Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:57:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <245AB2D0E504F647AC8E3CDB1BFE69C9@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.13.68, 1.0.28, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-11-20_07:2014-11-20,2014-11-20,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1402240000 definitions=main-1411200137 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/82bjk8VY-jwemGLKi2I8Y-kgBV4 Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:58:07 -0000 On Nov 12, 2014, at 11:48 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: > The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should perhaps = be reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. That=92s a good point =97 I=92ve requested an SDP directorate review of thi= s document. Jonathan (as AVTEXT co-chair)= From nobody Thu Nov 20 18:12:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85F21A8A62 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:12:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yD5wTCd28PeF for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E97501A8A6F for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f182.google.com with SMTP id hn15so3953409igb.3 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:12:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=hC3wWVXfAjXKi12YttyGqmObknt4ozFmtfJrWr0jhBQ=; b=agLN1mLyI7KBuWv82Twf8u3gYxgGNKEDeNQ95sSCkPbkYv/7xmNR6uHCvgMCTOQac+ vctptoC8Hl/MHQcYxOz1hIrJDy3vuMmCwE+HakhDjnXC1oxeGs03345G0j3TWR/cndW+ B4U/pwEBBoOayvNSoAEQzUFU5b+YHvj6pscbDGTTxh+Bv417WP2eNYhKCe+LmIDiTH0s du+1nMjw+RMRZ/gcbUC0vUGEpd5O5NZUWFj11NBmhUy/lpHBINza09ujcEbSFo4irqkj i/G4maPbtbetPk0RbwUutntqcvWdCZDJmf0ii1Gifl92AuHUXeP8VVkzTW1hau9K/gCD 3R9A== X-Received: by 10.50.3.67 with SMTP id a3mr1270608iga.42.1416535942975; Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniE (209-82-80-116.dedicated.allstream.net. [209.82.80.116]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k140sm2203431ioe.39.2014.11.20.18.12.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:12:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Colin Perkins'" , "'Huangyihong \(Rachel\)'" References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252771@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <22D0FEA1-55F9-4A1C-8B12-D1A37AA245B2@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <22D0FEA1-55F9-4A1C-8B12-D1A37AA245B2@csperkins.org> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 04:12:19 +0200 Message-ID: <00b401d00530$95b9b850$c12d28f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHdYnlDPsQ0kkwn3rDlyUiapS6lJQKALoWcAcW/Hh+cLWi/YA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/vHZXxLbc6h-ggtHb1tc_YcJ8S2M Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:12:26 -0000 Hi, > > >> The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should > >> perhaps be reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. Is the > >> mechanism sufficient to handle splicing of bundled media? (e.g., if > >> audio and video are sent bundled, and you want to splice in a > >> replacement for just the audio) > > > > [Rachel]: I'm not quite familiar with BUNDLE. But doesn't the BUNDLE only > deal with the unicast streams? For splicing, it's a multicast solution, and it's not > using RFC3264 (offer/answer). So we think BUNDLE is not relevant. > > There's nothing to stop you splicing unicast content. [Roni Even] Bundle deal with offer/answer and I think that splicing is only for declarative SDP. If the mixer is not negotiation with all parties using offer/answer he cannot bundle since will not know if supported. Maybe add text that bundle is not supported Anyhow for splicing only the video from a bundled audio and video, if want to us offer/answer, maybe add that when bundling extmap is only for the m-line that has it specified (according to draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-04) > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Fri Nov 21 02:54:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079D11AD362 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:54:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k-ZgkNB36vM3 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27BCC1A0127 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=52751 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Xrlqx-00054P-Ow; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:54:16 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <00b401d00530$95b9b850$c12d28f0$@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:54:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D7EEED7-FAED-45CE-A5CF-26BD19A73FDE@csperkins.org> References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252771@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <22D0FEA1-55F9-4A1C-8B12-D1A37AA245B2@csperkins.org> <00b401d00530$95b9b850$c12d28f0$@gmail.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/tHA0Jv-Zw4K_dg0vNG2eZG8ehnc Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:54:22 -0000 Hi Roni, On 21 Nov 2014, at 02:12, Roni Even wrote: >>>> The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should = perhaps be reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. Is the mechanism = sufficient to handle splicing of bundled media? (e.g., if audio and = video are sent bundled, and you want to splice in a replacement for just = the audio) >>>=20 >>> [Rachel]: I'm not quite familiar with BUNDLE. But doesn=92t the = BUNDLE only deal with the unicast streams? For splicing, it=92s a = multicast solution, and it=92s not using RFC3264 (offer/answer). So we = think BUNDLE is not relevant. >>=20 >> There's nothing to stop you splicing unicast content. > [Roni Even] Bundle deal with offer/answer and I think that splicing is = only for declarative SDP. If the mixer is not negotiation with all = parties using offer/answer he cannot bundle since will not know if = supported. Maybe add text that bundle is not supported >=20 > Anyhow for splicing only the video from a bundled audio and video, if = want to us offer/answer, maybe add that when bundling ext map is only = for the m-line that has it specified (according to = draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-04) I don=92t think it=92s sufficient to say that splicing only works with = declarative SDP. There=92s nothing in the mechanism that would limit it = to declarative or multicast sessions, so it ought to support OA and = unicast. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri Nov 21 22:27:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC771A0059 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:27:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id brQ31EfD5dCr for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C49561A0054 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:26:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id l15so1174401wiw.14 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:26:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=dBHC1n6gFlH5p/8A/pMHNbfp0AkYFlV+OPx/GmVZ+rA=; b=Js/6iMzfD5K6xy/UvyDWd/Atys8zaf5teb/YQA/rZzemiHBwwKTM59Xa6f0YJ2b0I8 ZZMLE1Wn10peMj/2wMEUzbwBX4ohYpwPILX1foDlGFn4Nj79H12T/sH8TE2nVL9okjV1 KGjwYsjRlrmZ06RKD8yfjsdN1a8VVkQ5RdwzlOyoDes5xBA4O+FLqz9XRRsQJQP2Mqm1 VrAEswETwr1LgmyHqNJb6QyoP6fVpx3fO86vrclH2X7lcc7SgviG40U8oCisiYqdpnwr zHQMdx4P0Z6mMusM8DUkuWXXNM/CW8SlvBCqEf9eRk0eVGVSStvBcyHQGdWswbEyexn1 kf/A== X-Received: by 10.180.107.198 with SMTP id he6mr3439653wib.44.1416637618653; Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniE ([2.54.190.229]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm2000096wiz.21.2014.11.21.22.26.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:26:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Colin Perkins'" References: <397AE3CB-7D71-49BB-B229-0343A4C05731@csperkins.org> <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB86252771@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <22D0FEA1-55F9-4A1C-8B12-D1A37AA245B2@csperkins.org> <00b401d00530$95b9b850$c12d28f0$@gmail.com> <8D7EEED7-FAED-45CE-A5CF-26BD19A73FDE@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <8D7EEED7-FAED-45CE-A5CF-26BD19A73FDE@csperkins.org> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 08:26:46 +0200 Message-ID: <006e01d0061d$4fbed8b0$ef3c8a10$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHdYnlDPsQ0kkwn3rDlyUiapS6lJQKALoWcAcW/Hh8C8qYyggEj2spknA6RwZA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/rbxhkPYDelbTOfvrhqt4VmvMxlA Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 06:27:02 -0000 Hi, In this case the document will need to say that the extmap for this header extension when bundle is used has relevance only to the m-line in which it is specified Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: Colin Perkins [mailto:csp@csperkins.org] > Sent: 21 November, 2014 12:54 PM > To: Roni Even > Cc: Huangyihong (Rachel); avtext@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [avtext] Review of draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00 > > Hi Roni, > > On 21 Nov 2014, at 02:12, Roni Even wrote: > >>>> The grouping mechanism in Section 6 looks okay to me, but should > perhaps be reviewed by someone more familiar with SDP. Is the mechanism > sufficient to handle splicing of bundled media? (e.g., if audio and video are sent > bundled, and you want to splice in a replacement for just the audio) > >>> > >>> [Rachel]: I'm not quite familiar with BUNDLE. But doesn't the BUNDLE only > deal with the unicast streams? For splicing, it's a multicast solution, and it's not > using RFC3264 (offer/answer). So we think BUNDLE is not relevant. > >> > >> There's nothing to stop you splicing unicast content. > > [Roni Even] Bundle deal with offer/answer and I think that splicing is only for > declarative SDP. If the mixer is not negotiation with all parties using > offer/answer he cannot bundle since will not know if supported. Maybe add > text that bundle is not supported > > > > Anyhow for splicing only the video from a bundled audio and video, if want to > us offer/answer, maybe add that when bundling ext map is only for the m-line > that has it specified (according to draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-04) > > I don't think it's sufficient to say that splicing only works with declarative SDP. > There's nothing in the mechanism that would limit it to declarative or multicast > sessions, so it ought to support OA and unicast. > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > From nobody Thu Nov 27 00:37:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31E91A6FE2 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 00:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, GB_SUMOF=1, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oAaz65OTx6Lo for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 00:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6713B1A1BD9 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f791c6d00000617b-e2-5476e2a73874 Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id BA.F4.24955.7A2E6745; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:36:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB105.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.4]) by ESESSHC003.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:36:55 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: Xiajinwei , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPqy8qMhC3H7taqUapdGaNZ63mxJxSmLjAgAPs2YCAHltkoA== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 08:36:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140729131517.29461.34635.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7yR2UhBlNvKVh8vHeD1eLi+lYm ByaPliNvWT2WLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx7+969oKu2IpFe7ezNTDeiOpi5OCQEDCR +H9FqouRE8gUk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAEUaJdY/fMEI4ixglHi/dywJSxSagITF/x11GEFtEwFNi 359tYLawQJDEmZdrWSHiwRLH3/1hhrCdJM6cPwhmswioSqy9egmsnlfAV+LXoRNMEAsuAi1o 6QRbwCkQJrHk0yKwQYwCshL3v98DizMLiEvcejKfCeJUAYkle84zQ9iiEi8f/2OFsBUlrk5f zgRRryUxr+E3lK0oMaX7ITvEYkGJkzOfsExgFJ2FZOwsJC2zkLTMQtKygJFlFaNocWpxUm66 kbFealFmcnFxfp5eXmrJJkZgpBzc8lt1B+PlN46HGAU4GJV4eD+cLgsRYk0sK67MPcQozcGi JM678Ny8YCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2Mhd52k2V3dq46dKoi0sZA+oBMkkP5 h+VRwiq+OWws6hWqCyYerLxUtFBnFrfnUv5QFzc/hWz7av7Mv9ur/z55FrXRQPzrJRnpC6F1 U2dv2RVla9CRPTVz7T8niTcLuptmS2ywu/T8o80/ds6PXqUOG9pa0/UKFzZXXErbZye0Pflf xabq9iwlluKMREMt5qLiRAAtSnNGdQIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/yTcLocjQsHqiFQbF8N6uixMKwHw Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-splicing-notification-00.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 08:37:01 -0000 SGkgSmlud2VpLA0KDQpJdCBpcyBub3cgbXkgdHVybiB0byBhcG9sb2dpemUgZm9yIHRoZSBkZWxh eS4gSSBoYXZlIG5vIGZ1cnRoZXIgY29uY2VybnMuIE15IHJlc3BvbnNlcyB0byB5b3VyIGFuc3dl 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SjuzhaoQi2g0 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 996041A8920 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79fc6d000001087-62-547734e41454 Received: from ESESSHC020.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DC.40.04231.4E437745; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:27:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB105.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.4]) by ESESSHC020.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:27:48 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: Stephan Wenger , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM2TU9IvAskwUumiAHVoVNISJxgYKPwgAFXOoCAD15dkA== Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:27:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.146] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje4Tk/IQgy0X9Sw+3rvBanG9cRO7 A5PHkiU/mTwWr3/PGMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx99MBpoIXwRV/2tvYGhibnbsYOTkkBEwk nly8ww5hi0lcuLeeDcQWEjjCKLFpfk4XIxeQvYhRonX/PLAEm4CGxPwddxlBbBEBT4n179eC xYUFgiQ6fvazQsSDJU5tamWHsJ0k9jesA4pzcLAIqEo87UkBCfMK+Er8PraIBWJXrcTBb2+Z QGxOAV2JzW+mgI1hFJCVuP/9HlgNs4C4xK0n85kg7hSQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/VghbSeLHhktQ 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Please find my a= nswers inline below. Cheers, Bo > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger > Sent: den 15 november 2014 22:57 > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy= -03.txt >=20 > Hi, > I read through this draft once more, and have a few remaining comments (a= few others were previously communicated > to Bo in private and are adequately addressed). >=20 > 1. Section 2.1.2, Characteristics. > Suggest to add a characteristic: =B3The nature of the media capture may i= mpose constraints on the clock handling in some > of the future steps. For example, many audio Video Capture devices are n= ot completely free in selecting the sample > rate.=B2 [BoB] Makes a lot of sense. Will add that in next version. >=20 > 2. Section 2.1.4, mixing > I think the language at the top of page 9 is a bit misleading. In many (= most? all?) video related cases, the =B3selection=B2 is > dealt with in the coded or compressed domain; that is, what is being swit= ched are Encoded Streams and not Raw > Streams. In the remaining video cases, one certainly cannot disregard ti= ming here (see below). [BoB] I agree that any type of mixing typically cannot disregard timing, me= aning that the input streams to be mixed have to be Source Streams rather t= han Raw Streams. Regarding "selection", I agree that such "selection" opera= tion can very well act on Encoded Streams and is probably misleading and ev= en out of scope in this section. What about avoiding "selection" altogether= by describing the Figure in 2.1.4 as a simple mix of three Source Streams? I think the latter part of that "selection" sentence, trying to describe an= example of a conceptual Video Source Stream, would benefit from firstly mo= ve after the (audio-related) figure, and secondly need a better example tha= t truly operates on Source Streams (not Encoded Streams) and adds some reas= onable scenario. What about describing a video surveillance switch that wor= ks on Source Streams (input and output), where the output is selected based= on some criteria, like a round-robin of the inputs or some (not further sp= ecified) "video activity"? > I=B9m also not sure that in an audio mixer it would be =B3Raw Streams=B2 = that are being mixed. Certainly, a useful audio mixer is > timing-aware, and in that case it would mix multiple Source Streams into = a resulting Source Stream, rather than multiple > Raw Streams into a resulting Source Stream. [BoB] I agree. Will change and add some clarifying text around it. =20 >=20 > 3. Section 2.1.10, use of =B3redundancy" > Many media coding formats allow to include redundancy--be it in the form = of in-media FEC like what is available in opus > and ITU video codecs, or source-coding based error resilience redundancy = (like intra macro blocks in any modern video > video coding). Perhaps it could be made clearer that =B3without addition= al redundancy=B2 explicitly excludes these > techniques--in other words, the term redundancy here refers exclusively t= o redundancy added through FEC, duplication, > re-transmission and similar RTP-based tools. Perhaps best would be to ma= ke it clear that most suitable Media Encoders > add some redundancy into Encoded Streams to make them cope better with in= evitable losses of RTP, but that there are > in addition ways (discussed later) to add further redundancy protecting t= he RTP stream itself (rather than the Encoded > Stream). [BoB] Agree that the intent of "redundancy" in this context is RTP-level an= d does not include any redundancy that may be in the Encoded Stream itself.= I will try to make this more clear in the next version. >=20 > 4. Section 2.1.11, =B3Media Redundancy=B2 > For anyone who worked on joint source-channel coding and optimization, th= e term =B3Media Redundancy=B2 is not intuitive > here; in fact, many would consider it plainly inappropriate. =20 [BoB] Then we should change it. > The redundancy introduced in this section is added on the > transport and generally protects transport units, namely sequences of RTP= packets (that it also happens to protect the > Encoded Stream carried in the RTP Stream=B2 is a wanted side effect.) I h= ad a short discussion about that term with Bo. He > said that a lot of mobile folks would find =B3Transport Redundancy=B2 als= o incomplete, as many folks would associate such > term with radio layer stuff. Perhaps =B3RTP-based Redundancy=B2? [BoB] That is probably a good-enough term, and I have no better proposal. W= ill change. >=20 > 5. 2.1.18, result of a failed checksum test Bo and I had a discussion abo= ut that as well, and I=B9m happy to see that the harsh > language of previous drafts is gone (in previous drafts, packets that fai= l checksum tests are dropped, period--ignoring > things like UDP-lite). Perhaps it may be worth mentioning that sensible = system designs either drop packets, or flag the > questionable packets in the resulting Received RTP Stream somehow so to a= larm a Media Decoder about the possible > corrupt state. (That said, the media decoder needs to be error tolerant = anyway, as in bit error prone networks the > chance of a packet with passed UDP checksum still including bit errors is= quite high. [BoB] Sounds very reasonable. I will change text accordingly. >=20 > 6. 2.1.21 =B3Media Repair=B2 > This section title has a similar problem as =B3Media Redundancy. Most jo= int source-channel coding folks would associate > with the term =B3media repair=B2 things like error concealment, interpola= tion, ...) and not the application of FEC that is being > sent outside of the Encoded Stream. So different terminology is needed, = and it should be aligned with the outcome of > the =B3Media Redundancy=B2 discussion. Further, what really is repaired = here is the received RTP Stream itself and not the > Received Source Stream; at least not directly. So I guess, the right way= to express this would be as > follows: RTP Stream Repair is the Transformation that takes as input one= or more received Source RRP Streams and > received Redundancy RTP Streams, and produces one or more Received RTP St= reams that are as close to the sent Source > RTP Streams as possible (utilizing FEC repair, retransmission, whatever).= =B2 [BoB] OK. Will consequently change the title to "RTP-based Repair". Would l= ike to keep "Repaired RTP Streams" as transformation output (there is a sep= arate section on that and their relation to Received RTP Streams), but the = rest of the text suggested above seems OK. >=20 > 7. 2.2.1 End Point and editor=B9s note > Remove the note, and pick one (soon). [BoB] Will do. I really prefer the one-word "Endpoint" and will send a sepa= rate mail to the list on this topic. >=20 > 8. Section 3, header > change section title to =B3Concepts of Inter-Relations=B2 (add the =B3of= =B2) Overall, I find this section (not its subsections) overly > abstract and also hard to read, but have no suggestions to improve it. [BoB] Will change the title. I will try to improve and simplify the text - = I'd actually expect that most of it is anyway covered elsewhere and can be = removed. >=20 > Regards, > Stephan >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 11/14/14, 7:31, "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" > wrote: >=20 > >(As WG cochair) > > > >This is to start a working group last call on > >draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03. > > > >To cater for the end of the IETF meeting, and for various national > >holidays, this working group last call will last three weeks. > > > >Therefore please comment on this document by Friday 5th December 2014. > > > >Please send comments to the working group list. > > > >It is helpful to give some assessment of the nature of your comment, as > >to whether you regard it as editorial, minor technical, or a rather > >more major flaw. > > > >Regards > > > >Keith > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >internet-drafts@ietf.org > >Sent: 14 November 2014 12:05 > >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >Cc: avtext@ietf.org > >Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: > >draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > > > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions > >Working Group of the IETF. > > > > Title : A Taxonomy of Grouping Semantics and Mechanism= s > >for Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Sources > > Authors : Jonathan Lennox > > Kevin Gross > > Suhas Nandakumar > > Gonzalo Salgueiro > > Bo Burman > > Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > > Pages : 42 > > Date : 2014-11-14 > > > >Abstract: > > The terminology about, and associations among, Real-Time Transport > > Protocol (RTP) sources can be complex and somewhat opaque. This > > document describes a number of existing and proposed relationships > > among RTP sources, and attempts to define common terminology for > > discussing protocol entities and their relationships. > > > > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonom > >y/ > > > >There's also a htmlized version available at: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 > > > >A diff from the previous version is available at: > >http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxono= m > >y-0 > >3 > > > > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >tools.ietf.org. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >avtext mailing list > >avtext@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > > > >_______________________________________________ > >avtext mailing list > >avtext@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Thu Nov 27 06:44:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1071A000D for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:44:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 354MV2TB14I9 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 403CB1A000B for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:44:27 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79116d000000fec-ee-547738c9ad35 Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 21.13.04076.9C837745; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:44:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB105.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.4]) by ESESSHC016.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.66]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:44:25 +0100 From: Bo Burman To: Stephan Wenger , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM2TU9IvAskwUumiAHVoVNISJxgYKPwgAFXOoCABGXegIAOg3lg Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:44:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5Ji/IQg9UP5S0+3rvBanG9cRO7 A5PHkiU/mTwWr3/PGMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx7Kd6wU23iq0rlRsYH1l0MXJySAiYSJzf c5YZwhaTuHBvPRuILSRwhFFi7j3dLkYuIHsRo0TzwsVMIAk2AQ2J+TvuMoLYIgKeEuvfrwVr EBYIkuj42c8KEQ+WOLWplR3CdpOY07AVrJ5FQFViz/f5LCA2r4CvxPaNe1ggFsxjlFh+4iTY IE4BXYl973rBbEYBWYn73++BNTALiEvcejKfCeJSAYkle85DXS0q8fLxP1YIW1Hi6vTlTBD1 ehI3pk5hg7C1JZYtfM0MsVhQ4uTMJywTGEVnIRk7C0nLLCQts5C0LGBkWcUoWpxaXJybbmSk l1qUmVxcnJ+nl5dasokRGCUHt/y22sF48LnjIUYBDkYlHt4Pp8tChFgTy4orcw8xSnOwKInz Ljw3L1hIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QDo0MLs8dXrhjZiz5dzbNan+1Mi/n20MPn Bv/mmX87C96zyD1jLk1qXvj2SsAmK6Mpb245rzWKuObsfXxqg4im9yzdPSf91Vu0qwo+PtxS /mld4LmUe5Fn3t15tnOn0Gql0NXRd/7MXiBZ3c3kv848X5Oxeibjfu2l/j2ZyRohU+5vPH7q BAPjKSWW4oxEQy3mouJEAB3dLiZzAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/eJ3tV_qoLgEIpe3I03efmDFi_YM Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:44:30 -0000 OK! > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger > Sent: den 18 november 2014 18:06 > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy= -03.txt >=20 > One more. > 9. Section 3.5 defines the three new categories for layered transmission = (MRST, MRMT, and SRST, as [... On a > [single/multiple] "Transport[s]". > That should me "Media Transport[s]". > Thanks, > Stephan >=20 > On 11/15/14, 13:56, "Stephan Wenger" wrote: >=20 > >Hi, > >I read through this draft once more, and have a few remaining comments > >(a few others were previously communicated to Bo in private and are > >adequately addressed). > > > >1. Section 2.1.2, Characteristics. > >Suggest to add a characteristic: =B3The nature of the media capture may > >impose constraints on the clock handling in some of the future steps. > >For example, many audio Video Capture devices are not completely free > >in selecting the sample rate.=B2 > > > >2. Section 2.1.4, mixing > >I think the language at the top of page 9 is a bit misleading. In many > >(most? all?) video related cases, the =B3selection=B2 is dealt with in t= he > >coded or compressed domain; that is, what is being switched are Encoded > >Streams and not Raw Streams. In the remaining video cases, one > >certainly cannot disregard timing here (see below). > >I=B9m also not sure that in an audio mixer it would be =B3Raw Streams=B2= that > >are being mixed. Certainly, a useful audio mixer is timing-aware, and > >in that case it would mix multiple Source Streams into a resulting > >Source Stream, rather than multiple Raw Streams into a resulting Source = Stream. > > > >3. Section 2.1.10, use of =B3redundancy" > >Many media coding formats allow to include redundancy--be it in the > >form of in-media FEC like what is available in opus and ITU video > >codecs, or source-coding based error resilience redundancy (like intra > >macro blocks in any modern video video coding). Perhaps it could be > >made clearer that =B3without additional redundancy=B2 explicitly exclude= s > >these techniques--in other words, the term redundancy here refers > >exclusively to redundancy added through FEC, duplication, > >re-transmission and similar RTP-based tools. Perhaps best would be to > >make it clear that most suitable Media Encoders add some redundancy > >into Encoded Streams to make them cope better with inevitable losses of > >RTP, but that there are in addition ways (discussed later) to add > >further redundancy protecting the RTP stream itself (rather than the Enc= oded Stream). > > > >4. Section 2.1.11, =B3Media Redundancy=B2 > >For anyone who worked on joint source-channel coding and optimization, > >the term =B3Media Redundancy=B2 is not intuitive here; in fact, many wou= ld > >consider it plainly inappropriate. The redundancy introduced in this > >section is added on the transport and generally protects transport > >units, namely sequences of RTP packets (that it also happens to protect > >the Encoded Stream carried in the RTP Stream=B2 is a wanted side effect.= ) > >I had a short discussion about that term with Bo. He said that a lot > >of mobile folks would find =B3Transport Redundancy=B2 also incomplete, a= s > >many folks would associate such term with radio layer stuff. Perhaps > >=B3RTP-based Redundancy=B2? > > > >5. 2.1.18, result of a failed checksum test Bo and I had a discussion > >about that as well, and I=B9m happy to see that the harsh language of > >previous drafts is gone (in previous drafts, packets that fail checksum > >tests are dropped, period--ignoring things like UDP-lite). Perhaps it > >may be worth mentioning that sensible system designs either drop > >packets, or flag the questionable packets in the resulting Received RTP > >Stream somehow so to alarm a Media Decoder about the possible corrupt > >state. (That said, the media decoder needs to be error tolerant > >anyway, as in bit error prone networks the chance of a packet with > >passed UDP checksum still including bit errors is quite high. > > > >6. 2.1.21 =B3Media Repair=B2 > >This section title has a similar problem as =B3Media Redundancy. Most > >joint source-channel coding folks would associate with the term =B3media > >repair=B2 things like error concealment, interpolation, ...) and not the > >application of FEC that is being sent outside of the Encoded Stream. > >So different terminology is needed, and it should be aligned with the > >outcome of the =B3Media Redundancy=B2 discussion. Further, what really = is > >repaired here is the received RTP Stream itself and not the Received > >Source Stream; at least not directly. So I guess, the right way to > >express this would be as > >follows: RTP Stream Repair is the Transformation that takes as input > >one or more received Source RRP Streams and received Redundancy RTP > >Streams, and produces one or more Received RTP Streams that are as > >close to the sent Source RTP Streams as possible (utilizing FEC repair, > >retransmission, whatever).=B2 > > > >7. 2.2.1 End Point and editor=B9s note > >Remove the note, and pick one (soon). > > > >8. Section 3, header > >change section title to =B3Concepts of Inter-Relations=B2 (add the =B3of= =B2) > >Overall, I find this section (not its subsections) overly abstract and > >also hard to read, but have no suggestions to improve it. > > > >Regards, > >Stephan > > > > > > > >On 11/14/14, 7:31, "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" > > > >wrote: > > > >>(As WG cochair) > >> > >>This is to start a working group last call on > >>draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03. > >> > >>To cater for the end of the IETF meeting, and for various national > >>holidays, this working group last call will last three weeks. > >> > >>Therefore please comment on this document by Friday 5th December 2014. > >> > >>Please send comments to the working group list. > >> > >>It is helpful to give some assessment of the nature of your comment, > >>as to whether you regard it as editorial, minor technical, or a rather > >>more major flaw. > >> > >>Regards > >> > >>Keith > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: avtext [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >>internet-drafts@ietf.org > >>Sent: 14 November 2014 12:05 > >>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >>Cc: avtext@ietf.org > >>Subject: [avtext] I-D Action: > >>draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > >> > >> > >>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >>directories. > >> This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions > >>Working Group of the IETF. > >> > >> Title : A Taxonomy of Grouping Semantics and Mechanis= ms > >>for Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Sources > >> Authors : Jonathan Lennox > >> Kevin Gross > >> Suhas Nandakumar > >> Gonzalo Salgueiro > >> Bo Burman > >> Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt > >> Pages : 42 > >> Date : 2014-11-14 > >> > >>Abstract: > >> The terminology about, and associations among, Real-Time Transport > >> Protocol (RTP) sources can be complex and somewhat opaque. This > >> document describes a number of existing and proposed relationships > >> among RTP sources, and attempts to define common terminology for > >> discussing protocol entities and their relationships. > >> > >> > >>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxono > >>my/ > >> > >>There's also a htmlized version available at: > >>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03 > >> > >>A diff from the previous version is available at: > >>http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxon= o > >>my- > >>0 > >>3 > >> > >> > >>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >>submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >>tools.ietf.org. > >> > >>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>avtext mailing list > >>avtext@ietf.org > >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>avtext mailing list > >>avtext@ietf.org > >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext > > > >_______________________________________________ > >avtext mailing list > >avtext@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext >=20 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From nobody Thu Nov 27 13:59:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF251A006E for ; 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Thu, 27 Nov 2014 21:59:03 +0000 From: Stephan Wenger To: Bo Burman , "avtext@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHQAAM2TU9IvAskwUumiAHVoVNISJxgYKPwgAFXOoCAD15dkIADflEA Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 21:59:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B27B422@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [50.174.124.226] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1274; x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1274; x-forefront-prvs: 040866B734 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(51704005)(52604005)(199003)(13464003)(24454002)(189002)(479174003)(46102003)(4396001)(54356999)(106356001)(76176999)(50986999)(107886001)(107046002)(106116001)(105586002)(66066001)(36756003)(2501002)(97736003)(64706001)(230783001)(20776003)(40100003)(122556002)(120916001)(86362001)(92726001)(92566001)(31966008)(2656002)(87936001)(19580395003)(19580405001)(21056001)(62966003)(77096003)(77156002)(101416001)(99286002)(95666004)(99396003)(42262002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0701MB1274; H:CY1PR0701MB1276.namprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: <05F0253C5F45194396A5ED7C45C6C284@namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: stewe.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avtext/QUqs511v4Un3rYGn0-PNZbnTe18 Subject: Re: [avtext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtext-rtp-grouping-taxonomy-03.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 21:59:08 -0000 SGkgQm8sDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIGFkZHJlc3NpbmcgdGhlc2UgcG9pbnRzLiAgT25lIHNtYWxsIGlu cHV0IGZvciBwb2ludCAyIGJlbG93DQppbmxpbmUuDQpTdGVwaGFuDQoNCk9uIDExLzI3LzE0LCA2 OjI3LCAiQm8gQnVybWFuIiA8Ym8uYnVybWFuQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5TdGVw aGFuLCANCj4NCj5UaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHlvdXIgcmV2aWV3IGFuZCBhIHNldCBvZiB2ZXJ5IGdv b2QgY29tbWVudHMhIFBsZWFzZSBmaW5kIG15DQo+YW5zd2VycyBpbmxpbmUgYmVsb3cuDQo+DQo+ Q2hlZXJzLA0KPkJvDQo+DQo+PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPj4gRnJvbTog YXZ0ZXh0IFttYWlsdG86YXZ0ZXh0LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBTdGVw aGFuDQo+Pldlbmdlcg0KPj4gU2VudDogZGVuIDE1IG5vdmVtYmVyIDIwMTQgMjI6NTcNCj4+IFRv OiBhdnRleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbYXZ0ZXh0XSBJLUQgQWN0aW9uOg0K Pj5kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWF2dGV4dC1ydHAtZ3JvdXBpbmctdGF4b25vbXktMDMudHh0DQo+PiANCj4+ IEhpLA0KPj4gSSByZWFkIHRocm91Z2ggdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBvbmNlIG1vcmUsIGFuZCBoYXZlIGEg ZmV3IHJlbWFpbmluZyBjb21tZW50cw0KPj4oYSBmZXcgb3RoZXJzIHdlcmUgcHJldmlvdXNseSBj b21tdW5pY2F0ZWQNCj4+IHRvIEJvIGluIHByaXZhdGUgYW5kIGFyZSBhZGVxdWF0ZWx5IGFkZHJl c3NlZCkuDQo+PiANCj4+Wy4uLl0NCj4NCj4+IA0KPj4gMi4gU2VjdGlvbiAyLjEuNCwgbWl4aW5n DQo+PiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBhdCB0aGUgdG9wIG9mIHBhZ2UgOSBpcyBhIGJpdCBt aXNsZWFkaW5nLiAgSW4gbWFueQ0KPj4obW9zdD8gYWxsPykgdmlkZW8gcmVsYXRlZCBjYXNlcywg dGhlIKn4c2VsZWN0aW9uqfcgaXMNCj4+IGRlYWx0IHdpdGggaW4gdGhlIGNvZGVkIG9yIGNvbXBy ZXNzZWQgZG9tYWluOyB0aGF0IGlzLCB3aGF0IGlzIGJlaW5nDQo+PnN3aXRjaGVkIGFyZSBFbmNv ZGVkIFN0cmVhbXMgYW5kIG5vdCBSYXcNCj4+IFN0cmVhbXMuICBJbiB0aGUgcmVtYWluaW5nIHZp ZGVvIGNhc2VzLCBvbmUgY2VydGFpbmx5IGNhbm5vdCBkaXNyZWdhcmQNCj4+dGltaW5nIGhlcmUg KHNlZSBiZWxvdykuDQo+W0JvQl0gSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IGFueSB0eXBlIG9mIG1peGluZyB0eXBp Y2FsbHkgY2Fubm90IGRpc3JlZ2FyZCB0aW1pbmcsDQo+bWVhbmluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBpbnB1dCBz dHJlYW1zIHRvIGJlIG1peGVkIGhhdmUgdG8gYmUgU291cmNlIFN0cmVhbXMNCj5yYXRoZXIgdGhh biBSYXcgU3RyZWFtcy4gUmVnYXJkaW5nICJzZWxlY3Rpb24iLCBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgc3VjaA0K PiJzZWxlY3Rpb24iIG9wZXJhdGlvbiBjYW4gdmVyeSB3ZWxsIGFjdCBvbiBFbmNvZGVkIFN0cmVh bXMgYW5kIGlzDQo+cHJvYmFibHkgbWlzbGVhZGluZyBhbmQgZXZlbiBvdXQgb2Ygc2NvcGUgaW4g dGhpcyBzZWN0aW9uLiBXaGF0IGFib3V0DQo+YXZvaWRpbmcgInNlbGVjdGlvbiIgYWx0b2dldGhl ciBieSBkZXNjcmliaW5nIHRoZSBGaWd1cmUgaW4gMi4xLjQgYXMgYQ0KPnNpbXBsZSBtaXggb2Yg dGhyZWUgU291cmNlIFN0cmVhbXM/DQo+DQo+SSB0aGluayB0aGUgbGF0dGVyIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhh dCAic2VsZWN0aW9uIiBzZW50ZW5jZSwgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGRlc2NyaWJlDQo+YW4gZXhhbXBsZSBv ZiBhIGNvbmNlcHR1YWwgVmlkZW8gU291cmNlIFN0cmVhbSwgd291bGQgYmVuZWZpdCBmcm9tDQo+ Zmlyc3RseSBtb3ZlIGFmdGVyIHRoZSAoYXVkaW8tcmVsYXRlZCkgZmlndXJlLCBhbmQgc2Vjb25k bHkgbmVlZCBhIGJldHRlcg0KPmV4YW1wbGUgdGhhdCB0cnVseSBvcGVyYXRlcyBvbiBTb3VyY2Ug U3RyZWFtcyAobm90IEVuY29kZWQgU3RyZWFtcykgYW5kDQo+YWRkcyBzb21lIHJlYXNvbmFibGUg c2NlbmFyaW8uIFdoYXQgYWJvdXQgZGVzY3JpYmluZyBhIHZpZGVvIHN1cnZlaWxsYW5jZQ0KPnN3 aXRjaCB0aGF0IHdvcmtzIG9uIFNvdXJjZSBTdHJlYW1zIChpbnB1dCBhbmQgb3V0cHV0KSwgd2hl cmUgdGhlIG91dHB1dA0KPmlzIHNlbGVjdGVkIGJhc2VkIG9uIHNvbWUgY3JpdGVyaWEsIGxpa2Ug YSByb3VuZC1yb2JpbiBvZiB0aGUgaW5wdXRzIG9yDQo+c29tZSAobm90IGZ1cnRoZXIgc3BlY2lm aWVkKSAidmlkZW8gYWN0aXZpdHkiPw0KDQpJIGRpZCBub3QgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIHN3aXRjaGlu Zy9zZWxlY3Rpb24gYWN0aXZpdHkgeW91IGhhZCBpbiBtaW5kLiAgWWVzLA0KdGhlIHR5cGUgb2Yg dmlkZW8gc2VsZWN0aW9uIHlvdSBkZXNjcmliZSBzdGlsbCBleGlzdHMgaW4gcHJhY3RpY2UuICBT byBJDQpndWVzcyBJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gd2l0aGRyYXcgbXkgY29tbWVudCAjMiBpbiBpdHMg ZW50aXJldHkuICBQZXJoYXBzIGFkZA0KdGhlIHN1cnZlaWxsYW5jZSBzd2l0Y2ggYXMgYW4gZXhh bXBsZSwgdGhvdWdoLg0KDQo+Wy4uLl0NCj4+DQoNCg==