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From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] IETF Review of rfc2446bis-07
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Am Montag, 8. September 2008 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer:
> Here is my review, where I mention all issues / questions sequentially,
> ordered as they appear in the draft (thus mixing errors with open questions
> and suggestings).

I just noticed one more minor issue:
In section "4.4.7 Add A New Series of Instances To A Recurring Event" we use 
>>(they are both "VEVENTS")<<. As I didn't find any other instance where 
VEVENT is pluralized (Actually, in rfc 2447bis, there is a splot where VEVENT 
is explictly used where a plural is expected, see the bottom of p.7 of 
rfc2447bis-07), I don't think we should do it here, either. I think it's best 
to always stay with VEVENT in its singular form. Thus, I would change this to 
>>(they are both a "VEVENT")<<

Cheers,
Reinhold

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dear Calsify group, dear apps-review team, dear Alexey,

I've now also taken a look at the RFC2447bis-05 draft and found some issues 
(like invalid iCalendar syntax, etc.) and have some questions and 
suggestions. 
This time, of course, the review is much shorter than the review of 
rfc2446bis.

As the calsify list has quite a tight message size limit, I uploaded the 
review to my homepage:
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2447bis_2008-10.html
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2447bis_2008-10.pdf
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2447bis_2008-10.tex

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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s/"VEVENTS"/"VEVENT" calendar components/

Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> Am Montag, 8. September 2008 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer:
>> Here is my review, where I mention all issues / questions sequentially,
>> ordered as they appear in the draft (thus mixing errors with open questions
>> and suggestings).
> 
> I just noticed one more minor issue:
> In section "4.4.7 Add A New Series of Instances To A Recurring Event" we use 
>>> (they are both "VEVENTS")<<. As I didn't find any other instance where 
> VEVENT is pluralized (Actually, in rfc 2447bis, there is a splot where VEVENT 
> is explictly used where a plural is expected, see the bottom of p.7 of 
> rfc2447bis-07), I don't think we should do it here, either. I think it's best 
> to always stay with VEVENT in its singular form. Thus, I would change this to 
>>> (they are both a "VEVENT")<<
> 
> Cheers,
> Reinhold
> 

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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Cc: "ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org" <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>,
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Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #2: DIR parameter
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Eliot Lear wrote:

> AD Issue 2:
> 
> There needs to be a statement as to what URIs are allowed and how they 
> are to be resolved (in the case of HTTP and HTTPs).

I propose to change:

   The parameter value is a URI.

to:

   The parameter value SHOULD be a CID [RFC2392], DATA [RFC2397],
   FILE [RFC1738], FTP [RFC1738], HTTP [RFC2616], HTTPS [RFC2818],
   LDAP [RFC4516], or MID [RFC2392] URI.

in section 3.2.6. Directory Entry Reference.

Cheers,
Bernard
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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #4: Supporting
 both VTODO and VEVENT in the same iCalendar stream
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Eliot Lear wrote:
> AD Issue 4:
> 
> Bernard has requested text, but there is consensus that text is needed 
> and we are currently blocking on that.

I propose to add the following sentence, proposed by Lisa, at the end of 
section 3.6. Calendar Components:

  Applications that support importing iCalendar objects SHOULD
  support all of the component types defined in this document,
  and SHOULD NOT silently drop any components as that can lead
  to user data loss.

Cheers,
Bernard
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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
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--==========A704DCF1F713B73E2524==========
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Hi folks,
I have started to work through all of Reinhold's points from his review 
(those that pertain to iTIP). To that end I have created a spreadsheet 
checklist to track all the changes/responses to the 123 points raised. 
Attached is a PDF of the current state of this.

I would like to request that the chair's ask the IETF tools team to enable 
the wiki feature for the Calsify WG on the tools website. I would like to 
keep an up to date posting of my spreadsheet, Reinhold's original review 
and an HTML diff of -07 to -08 there so that people can review the progress 
being made (without me having to send out all the attachments via email 
each time I make more progress).

Ultimately, rather than listing all the changes made to address Reinhold's 
review in the Changes section of the draft itself, I would like to simply 
provide a pointer to the PDF on the wiki. Would that be acceptable (for a 
section of the draft that will be removed before being published as an RFC)?

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37)
 [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>
> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
> REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
> it MUST NOT be present for these methods).

In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:

   Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
   defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
   REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.

In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).

Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time.  The 
problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a 
VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message 
that contains all or some information about an event. As such different 
restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.

I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of 
Section 1 Introduction:

Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add 
or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are 
required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its 
iCalendar object method value.

Thanks,
Bernard
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-2 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 79)
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

 > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
 >
 > 2. Sec. "3.6.5. Time Zone Component" (p.71): The text above the
 > example says that this is an example of a time zone using the
 > RDATE property. The example, however, does not contain any RDATE.

The RDATE properties were removed from the example when issue 79
was addressed in the document.

OLD TEXT:

This is an example showing time zone information for New York City
using "RDATE" property.

NEW TEXT:

This is an example showing time zone information for New York City
using only the "DTSTART" property.

Thanks,
Bernard
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Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
> Hi Reinhold,
>
> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>
> > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
> >
> > 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
> > optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
> > REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
> > it MUST NOT be present for these methods).
>
> In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:
>
>    Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
>    defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
>    REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.
>
> In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).
>
> Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time. The
> problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a
> VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message
> that contains all or some information about an event. As such different
> restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.
>
> I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of
> Section 1 Introduction:

Actually, several applications/libraries refuse to load a VEVENT if it does 
not adhere to the restrictions of RFC2445. So parsing schedulling messages 
with these libraries would no longer be possible.


> Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add
> or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are
> required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its
> iCalendar object method value.

So, basically, this is like saying: "Here we define a format with several 
property restrictions. But, if you are writing a parser/validator, you can't 
rely on these restrictions being fulfilled, because in some circumstances and 
for some uses of the format these restrictions are not really restrictions." 
I don't like such an implicit statement in a standard document...

Also, by this move, we are basically forking rfc2446bis off of the iCalendar 
format, which I also don't like.

The question is: Do we want rfc2445bis to be a general format, which can also 
be used for schedulling, or do we want two different (although 
similar-looking) formats for calendar information and for schedulling?

I would prefer a solution, which allows DTSTART to be absent from a VEVENT 
syntactically, but semantically require it for VEVENTs that really describe 
an event to have DTSTART present.
This would make implementation much easier. With the current spec, one cannot 
simply reuse an RFC2445bis validator and check the additional restrictions in 
rfc 2446bis, but has to do the validation from scratch (because valid 
rfc2446bis objects are not necessarily rfc2445bis objects...)
It's much easier to check for additional restrictions than to waive some 
restrictions.

Cheers,
Reinhold
- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
> Hi Reinhold,
>
> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>
> > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
[...]

BTW, would it still make sense if I went through rfc2445bis-08 like I did with 
rfc2446bis-07, or is it too late already for that ?

Cheers,
Reinhold
- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD
 Issue #2: DIR parameter
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 6, 2008 11:20:33 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

>> There needs to be a statement as to what URIs are allowed and how they
>> are to be resolved (in the case of HTTP and HTTPs).
>
> I propose to change:
>
>    The parameter value is a URI.
>
> to:
>
>    The parameter value SHOULD be a CID [RFC2392], DATA [RFC2397],
>    FILE [RFC1738], FTP [RFC1738], HTTP [RFC2616], HTTPS [RFC2818],
>    LDAP [RFC4516], or MID [RFC2392] URI.
>
> in section 3.2.6. Directory Entry Reference.

OK, but I would drop the file: URL as that has been used as a vector for 
attack (e.g. send me file:/etc/passwd) - and it really only makes sense to 
one person anyway.

I also think we should add a sentence to security considerations to 
re-emphasize the fact that use of URLs is subject to additional issues:

"This specification includes several places where URLs are used to 
represent data that is expected to be accessed via the URL. In each case 
the security considerations pertaining to the URL scheme MUST be adhered 
to."

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD
 Issue #4: Supporting both VTODO and VEVENT in the same iCalendar stream
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 6, 2008 11:51:49 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

>   Applications that support importing iCalendar objects SHOULD
>   support all of the component types defined in this document,
>   and SHOULD NOT silently drop any components as that can lead
>   to user data loss.

Looks OK.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue
 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Reinhold,

On 10/16/08 9:12 AM, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
>    
>> Hi Reinhold,
>>
>> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>>
>>      
>>> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>>>        
> [...]
>
> BTW, would it still make sense if I went through rfc2445bis-08 like I did with
> rfc2446bis-07, or is it too late already for that ?
>    

We have already been through last call on rfc2445bis-08 and I would 
rather not go through that process again.  We need to bring the process 
to a close.

Eliot
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue
 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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On 10/16/08 8:39 AM, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
>    
>> Hi Reinhold,
>>
>> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>>
>>      
>>> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>>>
>>> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
>>> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
>>> REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
>>> it MUST NOT be present for these methods).
>>>        
>> In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:
>>
>>     Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
>>     defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
>>     REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.
>>
>> In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).
>>
>> Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time. The
>> problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a
>> VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message
>> that contains all or some information about an event. As such different
>> restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.
>>
>> I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of
>> Section 1 Introduction:
>>      
>
> Actually, several applications/libraries refuse to load a VEVENT if it does
> not adhere to the restrictions of RFC2445. So parsing schedulling messages
> with these libraries would no longer be possible.
>
>
>    
>> Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add
>> or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are
>> required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its
>> iCalendar object method value.
>>      
>
> So, basically, this is like saying: "Here we define a format with several
> property restrictions. But, if you are writing a parser/validator, you can't
> rely on these restrictions being fulfilled, because in some circumstances and
> for some uses of the format these restrictions are not really restrictions."
> I don't like such an implicit statement in a standard document...
>
> Also, by this move, we are basically forking rfc2446bis off of the iCalendar
> format, which I also don't like.
>    

I would agree with this concern.

> The question is: Do we want rfc2445bis to be a general format, which can also
> be used for schedulling, or do we want two different (although
> similar-looking) formats for calendar information and for schedulling?
>
> I would prefer a solution, which allows DTSTART to be absent from a VEVENT
> syntactically, but semantically require it for VEVENTs that really describe
> an event to have DTSTART present.
> This would make implementation much easier. With the current spec, one cannot
> simply reuse an RFC2445bis validator and check the additional restrictions in
> rfc 2446bis, but has to do the validation from scratch (because valid
> rfc2446bis objects are not necessarily rfc2445bis objects...)
> It's much easier to check for additional restrictions than to waive some
> restrictions.
>    

Can you provide a textual change to match this statement?

Eliot
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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>,
	Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue
 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Here are textual changes that I believe match Reinhold's statement.

In section 3.6.1 Event Component, change:

    ; the following are REQUIRED,
    ; but MUST NOT occur more than once

    dtstamp / dtstart / uid /

to:

    ; the following are REQUIRED,
    ; but MUST NOT occur more than once

    dtstamp / uid /

    ; the following is REQUIRED if the component
    ; appears in an iCalendar object that doesn't
    ; specify the "METHOD" property, otherwise it
    ; is OPTIONAL, in any case it MUST NOT occur
    ; more than once

    dtstart /


In section 3.8.2.4 Date/Time Start, change:

    This property is REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components
    and in all types of recurring calendar components.

to:

    This property is REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components
    and in all types of recurring calendar components contained
    in iCalendar objects that don't specify the "METHOD" property,
    otherwise it is OPTIONAL.

Cheers,
Bernard

Eliot Lear wrote:
> On 10/16/08 8:39 AM, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
>>   
>>> Hi Reinhold,
>>>
>>> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38 
>>>
>>>
>>>     
>>>> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
>>>> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
>>>> REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
>>>> it MUST NOT be present for these methods).
>>>>        
>>> In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:
>>>
>>>     Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
>>>     defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
>>>     REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.
>>>
>>> In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).
>>>
>>> Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time. The
>>> problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a
>>> VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message
>>> that contains all or some information about an event. As such different
>>> restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.
>>>
>>> I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of
>>> Section 1 Introduction:
>>>      
>>
>> Actually, several applications/libraries refuse to load a VEVENT if it 
>> does
>> not adhere to the restrictions of RFC2445. So parsing schedulling 
>> messages
>> with these libraries would no longer be possible.
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add
>>> or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are
>>> required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its
>>> iCalendar object method value.
>>>      
>>
>> So, basically, this is like saying: "Here we define a format with several
>> property restrictions. But, if you are writing a parser/validator, you 
>> can't
>> rely on these restrictions being fulfilled, because in some 
>> circumstances and
>> for some uses of the format these restrictions are not really 
>> restrictions."
>> I don't like such an implicit statement in a standard document...
>>
>> Also, by this move, we are basically forking rfc2446bis off of the 
>> iCalendar
>> format, which I also don't like.
>>    
> 
> I would agree with this concern.
> 
>> The question is: Do we want rfc2445bis to be a general format, which 
>> can also
>> be used for schedulling, or do we want two different (although
>> similar-looking) formats for calendar information and for schedulling?
>>
>> I would prefer a solution, which allows DTSTART to be absent from a 
>> VEVENT
>> syntactically, but semantically require it for VEVENTs that really 
>> describe
>> an event to have DTSTART present.
>> This would make implementation much easier. With the current spec, one 
>> cannot
>> simply reuse an RFC2445bis validator and check the additional 
>> restrictions in
>> rfc 2446bis, but has to do the validation from scratch (because valid
>> rfc2446bis objects are not necessarily rfc2445bis objects...)
>> It's much easier to check for additional restrictions than to waive some
>> restrictions.
>>    
> 
> Can you provide a textual change to match this statement?
> 
> Eliot
> 

_______________________________________________
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ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-3 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify]
	Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>
> 3. Sec. "3.8.7.4. Sequence Number" (p.142): It should be clarified
> whether the SEQUENCE number is supposed to be the same for all
> different components with the same UID (but differing in their use
> of RECURRENCE-ID to identify particular instances of a recurring
> sequence) or whether they can have different SEQUENCE numbers
> (see also issue * above).

My understanding is that they can have different sequence numbers.

If the Organizer was required to increment the "SEQUENCE" number of all 
recurrence instances, the Organizer would then end up discarding replies 
  with "SEQUENCE" value smaller than the current "SEQUENCE" for 
recurrence instances that were not impacted by the last change. Not ideal.

Shall I add the following text at the end of the Description field of 
section 3.8.7.4 Sequence Number?

   Recurrence instances of a recurring component MAY have different
   sequence numbers.

Cheers,
Bernard
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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify]
	Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

 > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
 >
 > 4. Sec. "3.3.10. Recurrence Rule" (p.40): As discussed in issue *
 > for Sec. 4.4 above, the description of INTERVAL can possibly be
 > misunderstood. The next sentence explains it better, but it also
 > only uses an interval of 1. Furthermore, anyone who misunderstood
 > the first, ambiguous sentence will not be corrected by that second
 > sentence. I propose to change the first sentence to:
 >
 >      The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer
 >      representing  at which intervals the recurrence rule
 >      repeats.
 >
 >   Furthermore, I would add one more sentence to that paragraph:
 >
 >      A value of "2" means for example every other day for a DAILY
 >      rule, etc.
 >
 >   This explains the use of INTERVAL much better than the default
 >   value of "1".

I propose to change:

   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
   how often the recurrence rule repeats.  The default value is "1",
   meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, or every minute for a
   MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
   DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
   MONTHLY rule and every year for a YEARLY rule.

to:

   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
   at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
   is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
   a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
   DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
   MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
   within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.

Thanks,
Bernard
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was:
 [Ietf-calsify]	Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 16, 2008 4:22:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

>    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
>    at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
>    is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
>    a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
>    DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
>    MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
>    within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.

Alternative first sentence:

    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing the
    interval from one recurrence instance to the next.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-5 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify]
	Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

 > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
 >
 > 5. Sec. "3.8.4.7. Unique Identifier" (p.120f): As detailled in issue
 > * above, it should be clarified how spaces in a UID property value
 > should be handled. In particular, are they allowed at all? Are
 > leading or trailing spaces to be ignored when looking for or
 > comparing UIDs?

BTW, the recommended syntax of the "UID" property was previously 
discussed on the list, though from a different angle:

http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2007-February/001549.html

If we are to discourage the use of specific characters perhaps '/', '?' 
and '&' should be added to the list since some CalDAV clients are using 
the UID value as the name of the calendar object resource. Limiting 
ourselves to US-ASCII would also help avoid issues.

Can you propose a textual change?

Cheers,
Bernard

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From: "Tim Hare" <TimHare@comcast.net>
To: "'Bernard Desruisseaux'" <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>,
	"'Reinhold Kainhofer'" <reinhold@kainhofer.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:04:49 -0400
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue
	37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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In what use case during scheduling is the start of the event being scheduled
not relevant and not necessary?

I am opposed to allowing "waivers" on the general principle that we will end
right back where we started with multiple incompatible implementations.

As an end user I'd be opposed, because I could never tell which of my
colleagues' many possible systems would waive some requirements.

Tim Hare
Interested Bystander, Non-Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org
[mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bernard
Desruisseaux
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:34 AM
To: Reinhold Kainhofer
Cc: Calsify WG
Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37)
[Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]

Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>
> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART 
> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY, REFRESH 
> and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently, it MUST NOT be 
> present for these methods).

In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:

   Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
   defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
   REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.

In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).

Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time.  The problem we
have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a VEVENT calendar
component is not an event. It is a scheduling message that contains all or
some information about an event. As such different restrictions may apply to
scheduling messages.

I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of Section
1 Introduction:

Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add or
waive restrictions on the components and properties that are required,
optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its iCalendar object
method value.

Thanks,
Bernard
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Am Freitag, 17. Oktober 2008 schrieb Tim Hare:
> In what use case during scheduling is the start of the event being
> scheduled not relevant and not necessary?

When sending a REFRESH or DECLINECOUNTER message, it contains a VEVENT with 
only the UID, but no specific further information (after all, you ask the 
organizer for the latest version, so you don't have to send any of your 
outdated information, including DTSTART).

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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	Issue #2: DIR parameter
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Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Cyrus Daboo:
> Hi Bernard,
>
> --On October 6, 2008 11:20:33 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux
>
> <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:
> >> There needs to be a statement as to what URIs are allowed and how they
> >> are to be resolved (in the case of HTTP and HTTPs).
> >
> > I propose to change:
> >
> >    The parameter value is a URI.
> >
> > to:
> >
> >    The parameter value SHOULD be a CID [RFC2392], DATA [RFC2397],
> >    FILE [RFC1738], FTP [RFC1738], HTTP [RFC2616], HTTPS [RFC2818],
> >    LDAP [RFC4516], or MID [RFC2392] URI.
> >
> > in section 3.2.6. Directory Entry Reference.
>
> OK, but I would drop the file: URL as that has been used as a vector for
> attack (e.g. send me file:/etc/passwd) - and it really only makes sense to
> one person anyway.

Or to a whole working group if it refers to a file on a share drive. In these 
circumstances, file:// makes a lot of sense.

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:11:11 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to
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Hi Reinhold,

--On October 17, 2008 1:43:52 AM +0200 Reinhold Kainhofer 
<reinhold@kainhofer.com> wrote:

>> In what use case during scheduling is the start of the event being
>> scheduled not relevant and not necessary?
>
> When sending a REFRESH or DECLINECOUNTER message, it contains a VEVENT
> with  only the UID, but no specific further information (after all, you
> ask the  organizer for the latest version, so you don't have to send any
> of your  outdated information, including DTSTART).

Also CANCEL - all that is needed to cancel a meeting is the 
UID/RECURRENCE-ID.


-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Hash: SHA1

BTW, I realized that i didn't mention the rfc2446bis issue #100 in my issues 
list for rfc2445bis: 

RFC2446bis Sec. 4.5.7.2 (p.105): This section talks about how recurrence works 
in general for to-dos, which would much better belong in rfc2445bis rather 
than rfc2446bis. So I think this whole section should be moved to rfc2445bis. 
Also, this section speaks of the due date specified in a "REQUEST", while of 
course the same holds true for PUBLISH, ADD, COUNTER, etc., too. It is not 
even specific to iTIP, but rather a general issue in iCalendar. 

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] RK-iTIP-100 (related to iCalendar issue 27) [Was:
 Re: Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of
 the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]]
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Hi Reinhold,

Section 4.5.7.2 Calculating due dates in recurring VTODOs should be 
removed from rfc2446bis (iTIP). The first sentence is actually wrong. 
The due date is NOT ``specified using the "RECURRENCE-ID" property''. 
You are correct in saying that this information belongs in rfc2445bis.

That being said, I don't believe any text change is required in 
rfc2445bis (iCalendar). I think the modification that was done to the 
last paragraph of the Description field of the RRULE property in section 
3.8.5.3 Recurrence Rule (issue 27) is sufficient.  See:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#page-126

Thanks,
Bernard

Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> BTW, I realized that i didn't mention the rfc2446bis issue #100 in my issues 
> list for rfc2445bis: 
> 
> RFC2446bis Sec. 4.5.7.2 (p.105): This section talks about how recurrence works 
> in general for to-dos, which would much better belong in rfc2445bis rather 
> than rfc2446bis. So I think this whole section should be moved to rfc2445bis. 
> Also, this section speaks of the due date specified in a "REQUEST", while of 
> course the same holds true for PUBLISH, ADD, COUNTER, etc., too. It is not 
> even specific to iTIP, but rather a general issue in iCalendar. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Reinhold
> 
> - -- 
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
> email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
>  * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
>  * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
>  * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:21:46 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>,
	Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] RK-iTIP-100 (related to iCalendar issue 27)
 [Was: Re: Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF
 Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]]
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 17, 2008 10:04:55 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

> Section 4.5.7.2 Calculating due dates in recurring VTODOs should be
> removed from rfc2446bis (iTIP). The first sentence is actually wrong.
> The due date is NOT ``specified using the "RECURRENCE-ID" property''.
> You are correct in saying that this information belongs in rfc2445bis.
>
> That being said, I don't believe any text change is required in
> rfc2445bis (iCalendar). I think the modification that was done to the
> last paragraph of the Description field of the RRULE property in section
> 3.8.5.3 Recurrence Rule (issue 27) is sufficient.  See:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#page-126

I agree that 4.5.7.2 in 2446bis is redundant and I have removed it from my 
working copy of the draft.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify]
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Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
> 
> --On October 16, 2008 4:22:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
> <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
>>    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
>>    at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
>>    is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
>>    a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
>>    DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
>>    MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
>>    within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.
> 
> Alternative first sentence:
> 
>    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing the
>    interval from one recurrence instance to the next.
> 

Actually, we shouldn't talk about "recurrence instance" here. Depending 
on other rule parts there may not be a recurrence instance at the next 
interval.

I'll go with the exact phrasing proposed by Reinhold, that is:

   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
   at which intervals the recurrence rule repeats.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was:
 [Ietf-calsify]Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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I changed the example as suggested by Nigel.

Cheers,
Bernard

Nigel Swinson wrote:
>>   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
>>   at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
>>   is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
>>   a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
>>   DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
>>   MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
>>   within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.
> 
> I think I'd rather
> 
>   MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
> -   within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.
> +   within a DAILY rule, a value of "8" means every eight days.
> 
> The phrase "every other day" is pretty quirky English, I'd be worried 
> about it being misunderstood.
> 
> Nigel
> 

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Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:53:17 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
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Hi,
Rheinhold notes:

    Sec. 3.1.2 (p.14, VTIMEZONE table): This table states that RRULE and
    RDATE MUST NOT both be present at the same time. rfc2445bis does not
    have such a restriction, so that some VTIMEZONE ob jects, which are
    valid in rfc2445bis, cannot be used for group scheduling. I propose to
    remove that restriction.

Now in 2445bis the abnf for a VTIMEZONE says nothing about whether RRULE 
and RDATE are mutually exclusive. However, in the text that follows RRULE 
is described, then it says:

    Alternatively, the "RDATE" property can be used ...

That later sentence could be read to mean that RRULE can be used or RDATE 
can be used instead. i.e. RRULE and RDATE are mutually exclusive as 
indicated in 2446bis.

So what is the right behavior? Can RRULE and RDATE both appear in a 
STANDARD or DAYLIGHT component? If the ABNF is correct, then I suggest some 
re-wording should be done to the sentence I quoted above and 2446bis has to 
be corrected.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
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Hi folks,
The IETF tools site wiki has now been turned on (thanks to the chairs for 
doing that). I have created a page to track the 2446bis work:

<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/calsify/trac/wiki/RFC2446bis>

At present I am working through Reinhold Kainhofer's comprehensive review. 
107 of 123 issues have been addressed one way or another. In most cases 
changes were made as suggested by Reinhold. In a few cases changes were not 
made as I felt the spec was fine. Please review the checklist together with 
Reinhold's document to make sure you are on board with the changes or 
non-changes.

There are a few outstanding issues that I think warrant discussion on the 
list and I will be starting email threads on those.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo


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	ext Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: [ietf-calsify] Editorial issues + Issue 60 [Was: Re: [Ietf-calsify]
 Re: AD review on 2445bis]
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I'm following up on the issues raised by Lisa that were classified as 
Editorial by Aki.  See comments below.

Aki Niemi wrote:
> [CC'd the working group list]
> 
> Hi Lisa,
> 
> Overall, I think these comments fall into two categories; editorial and
> substantial. I've labeled the issues below, and will start a new thread
> on each substantial issue on the list.
> 
> AFAIK, none of the issues you mention have been brought up before. In
> other words, good catches. ;)
> 
> Cheers,
> Aki
> 
> to, 2008-05-29 kello 13:49 -0700, ext Lisa Dusseault kirjoitti:
>> Section references:  Can we break section 3 down for publication?  It  
>> would be so much easier to remember and refer to specific sections of  
>> this document if we had section "4.4." be the UID parameter section  
>> instead of 3.8.4.7.    My eyes just cross at the fourth level of  
>> section nesting.  I am probably abnormally insistent about avoiding  
>> that fourth hierarchy level, and you may all think I'm crazy to  
>> suggest the work and change.  Nevertheless, I'll go ahead and suggest,  
>> without any further pressure, a breakdown and ordering that I,  
>> speaking as an individual and not as an AD (is that enough  
>> disclaimers), would prefer:
>> 	Section 3:   iCalendar Syntax
>> 		Section 3.1: Content lines
>> 		Section 3.2: Value Data Types
>>
>> 	Section 4: ICalendar ojects and Components
>>   		Section 4.1: iCalendar object
>> 		Section 4.2: Components
>>
>> 	Section 5: Properties
>> 		Section 5.1: Property Parameters
>> 		Section 5.2: Calendar Properties
>> 		Section 5.3: Descriptive Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.4: Date and Time Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.5: Time Zone Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.6: Relationship Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.7: Recurrence Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.8: Alarm Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.9: Change Management Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.10: Miscellaneous Component Properties
>>
>> 	Section 6: iCalendar Object examples
>>
>> 	... all further sections ++2
> 
> [editorial]
> 
> I think this change makes sense.

I personally don't see much benefit in doing this change.
No change done.

> 
>> Section -by-section comments:
>>
>> Section 1: This sentence is really out of date/touch:
>> 					However, the longer term growth of
>>     calendaring and scheduling is currently limited by the lack of
>>     Internet standards for the message content types that are central to
>>     these knowledgeware applications.
>>
>> I think we can just drop it unless you think there's something  
>> important to preserve.
> 
> [editorial]

Done.

> 
> I agree.
> 
>> Section 3.2.1:
>> The ALTREP parameter can be used in a lot of places.  I bet it's not  
>> supported everywhere, and some usages of ALTREP could even be  
>> dangerous.  Some health warnings should be added here at least.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
> I think this is also related to another issue listed below on
> strengthening the security considerations section of the draft.
> 
>> Section 3.2.6, DIR parameter:  This should be limited to LDAP URLs  
>> only, if not by requirement then at least by noting that other types  
>> of URLs are likely to be harmful to interoperability.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.2.10: When a language tag can be used to distinguish between  
>> multiple values, we do need a little guidance about how this is  
>> intended to be used.  How is it used in practice?   Are clients  
>> expected to display only the one that is their most preferred language  
>> among the choices, or are clients expected to display all values and  
>> use the language tag to help display properly?
> 
> [editorial]

This issue has already been raised on the mailing list, see:

http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2006-November/001343.html
http://www.ofcourseimright.com/cgi-bin/roundup/calsify/issue60

but never actually addressed in the draft. At some point issue 60 and 35
got mixed up. Going back to the issue tracker I found the following
update from Eliot:

   > msg140 (view)  	Author: lear  	Date: 2006-11-16.14:49:39
   >
   > Consensus to NOT handle multiple LANGUAGE values.
   > Better done in MIME.

As such, I'm proposing the following changes:

--- In RFC2445 section 4.1.2 Multiple Values

Add:

    Multi-valued properties MUST NOT be used to specify multiple language
    variants of the same value. Calendar applications SHOULD display all
    values.

--- In RFC2445 section 4.6.5 Time Zone Component

Change:

    The optional "TZNAME" property is the customary name for the time
    zone. It may be specified multiple times, to allow for specifying
    multiple language variants of the time zone names. This could be used
    for displaying dates.

to:

    The optional "TZNAME" property is the customary name for the time
    zone.  This could be used for displaying dates.


--- In RFC2445 section 4.8.3.2 Time Zone Name

Change:

   Description: This property may be specified in multiple languages; in
   order to provide for different language requirements.

to:

   Description: This property specifies a customary name that can be used
   when displaying dates that occur during the observance defined by the
   time zone sub-component.

--- In RFC2445 section 4.8.3.2 Time Zone Name

Change:

    Example: The following are example of this property:

      TZNAME:EST

    The following is an example of this property when two different
    languages for the time zone name are specified:

      TZNAME;LANGUAGE=en:EST
      TZNAME;LANGUAGE=fr-CA:HNE

to:

    Example: The following are examples of this property:

      TZNAME:EST

      TZNAME;LANGUAGE=fr-CA:HNE

> 
> I suspect this simply needs an implementation note on the subject.
> 
>> Section 3.2.15: RELTYPE.  What does it mean that a calendar component  
>> referenced is the SIBLING of this one?  How is a user agent supposed  
>> to use this information?  Is this parameter ever used except on  
>> RELATED-TO?  Is it actually in use even there?  Health warnings at  
>> least.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.6.2: VTODO.  Is it now more common for VTODOs to appear in  
>> the same iCalendar document as VEVENTS?  A few years ago that was not  
>> the case.  Can we now state that user agents SHOULD be able to handle  
>> VTODOs as well as VEVENTS?
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.6.3: VJOURNAL: This needs a health warning even more than  
>> VTODO does; some discussion about what users actually do with VJOURNAL  
>> components, if ever, but nevertheless how preserving user data is  
>> important...
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.8.1.10:  Is there some colloquial meaning of "raton- 
>> laveur"?  A naive translation has this as "small rat washer"  and I'm  
>> intrigued by why this would be a required resource for an event...  :)
> 
> [editorial]
> 
> Bernard? 

Raton-laveur is the French name for "raccoon".  It's a pretty dumb
example if you ask me. I'll change the example to:

   RESOURCES;LANGUAGE=fr:Nettoyeur haute pression

Something Lisa has reported to enjoy ;-)

http://nih.blogspot.com/2006/05/i-borrowed-my-neighbours-pressure.html

> 
>> Section 3.8.4.3, 3.8.4.4:   CONTACT and ORGANIZER and RECURRENCE-ID  
>> are defined on VJOURNAL items.  I have no idea what they *mean* on  
>> VJOURNAL.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.8.8.2:  X- Properties:  We should recommend AGAINST using  
>> these with user-readable strings like
> 
> I think there's some text missing here. Can you clarify?
> 
>> Section 5:  List item 2 is blank. So is #7.
> 
> [editorial]

Fixed.

> 
>> Section 7:  This is probably incomplete.  For example, there are  
>> attacks with embedded HTML that are well-known, and could apply to any  
>> usage of iCalendar.   Have we done brainstorming about other issues?
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 8:  It would help to add that we are now *updating* IANA  
>> registries that were first established with RFC 2445.  (If we're not  
>> making any changes, it would be good to say that instead).  IANA reads  
>> this section mostly, and depends on this section to figure out what to  
>> do...  Since these registries already exist, we can now put URLs in to  
>> this document to be extra helpful to readers and to the IANA.
> 
> [editorial]
> 
> Good point.

Actually, these registries don't already exist.

> 
> Cheers,
> Aki
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-calsify mailing list
> Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
> http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify
> 
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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] RK iTIP Issue #15
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I propose to change the text in section 3.6.5. Time Zone Component of 
rfc2445bis, from:

   Alternatively, the "RDATE" property can be used to define the onset
   of the observance by giving the individual onset date and times.

to:

   The "RDATE" property can also be used to define the onset
   of the observance by giving the individual onset date and times.

Cheers,
Bernard


Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi,
> Rheinhold notes:
> 
>     Sec. 3.1.2 (p.14, VTIMEZONE table): This table states that RRULE and
>     RDATE MUST NOT both be present at the same time. rfc2445bis does not
>     have such a restriction, so that some VTIMEZONE ob jects, which are
>     valid in rfc2445bis, cannot be used for group scheduling. I propose to
>     remove that restriction.
> 
> Now in 2445bis the abnf for a VTIMEZONE says nothing about whether RRULE 
> and RDATE are mutually exclusive. However, in the text that follows RRULE 
> is described, then it says:
> 
>     Alternatively, the "RDATE" property can be used ...
> 
> That later sentence could be read to mean that RRULE can be used or RDATE 
> can be used instead. i.e. RRULE and RDATE are mutually exclusive as 
> indicated in 2446bis.
> 
> So what is the right behavior? Can RRULE and RDATE both appear in a 
> STANDARD or DAYLIGHT component? If the ABNF is correct, then I suggest some 
> re-wording should be done to the sentence I quoted above and 2446bis has to 
> be corrected.
> 

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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] \t disallowed in "text" value
 type but allowed in	root "value" type
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To be consistent with what's done with param-value, I propose to change:

    TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
                 %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII

to:

    TSAFE-CHAR = WSP / %x21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
                 %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII

That is, HTAB (US-ASCII decimal 9) would now be allowed and would NOT 
need to be escaped with a backslash.

Cheers,
Bernard

Nigel Swinson wrote:
> Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but I think the grammer says that 
> \t (0x09) isn't allowed in a text value:
>  
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#section-3.3.11
> 
>         text       = *(TSAFE-CHAR / ":" / DQUOTE / ESCAPED-CHAR)
>            ; Folded according to description above
> 
>         ESCAPED-CHAR = ("\\" / "\;" / "\," / "\N" / "\n")
>            ; \\ encodes \, \N or \n encodes newline
>            ; \; encodes ;, \, encodes ,
> 
>         TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>                      %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>            ; Any character except CTLs not needed by the current
>            ; character set, DQUOTE, ";", ":", "\", ","
> 
> Was this a mistake, or a deliberate choice?  It seem especially wierd 
> given that \t is allowed in a "value", and I thought the whole intention 
> of the "text" value type was to allow more characters to be in a value 
> than what "value" allowed.
>  
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#section-3.1
> 
>       contentline   = name *(";" param ) ":" value CRLF
> 
>  
> 
>       value         = *VALUE-CHAR
> 
>       VALUE-CHAR    = WSP / %x21-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>       ; Any textual character
> 
> I think it is a mistake, one that might be easy to rectify should there be a V09?
> 
> Nigel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] \t disallowed in "text" value
 type but allowed in	root "value" type
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 20, 2008 2:24:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

> To be consistent with what's done with param-value, I propose to change:
>
>     TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>                  %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>
> to:
>
>     TSAFE-CHAR = WSP / %x21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>                  %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>
> That is, HTAB (US-ASCII decimal 9) would now be allowed and would NOT
> need to be escaped with a backslash.

I think this is a reasonable change, though in theory it would break a 
very, very strict 2445 parser!

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From: Dave Thewlis <Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>
Organization: The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] An Invitation to Meet CalConnect in Europe in
	November
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Dear Folks,

CalConnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium - will be holding 
an introductory Meet CalConnect event in Europe in early November, and I 
would like to invite you to one of the two sessions to introduce 
CalConnect and give you a chance to learn more about who we are, what we 
do, and how we are working to further interoperable Calendaring and 
Scheduling. 

The event will be held the afternoons of Friday November 7th in Prague, 
Czech Republic, and Monday November 10th in London, England.  Each event 
is scheduled for 1300-1600 and will be preceded by a light lunch and 
followed by a reception.

There will be no charge but we do request that you register in advance 
so we know how many people to expect at each venue.

Complete details on the event, including locations, logistics, and a 
link to the registration form, is at 
http://www.calconnect.org/meetcalconnect.shtml. 

Best Regards,

Dave Thewlis

-- 
*Dave Thewlis, Executive Director
Calconnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium*
+1 707 840 9391 (voice) · +1 707 498 2238 (mobile)
http://www.calconnect.org · Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org 
<mailto:Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>

--------------000408070809000800090307
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear Folks,<br>
<br>
CalConnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium - will be
holding an introductory Meet CalConnect event in Europe in early
November, and I would like to invite you to one of the two sessions to
introduce CalConnect and give you a chance to learn more about who we
are, what we do, and how we are working to further interoperable
Calendaring and Scheduling.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
The event will be held the afternoons of Friday November 7th in Prague,
Czech Republic, and Monday November 10th in London, England.&nbsp; Each
event is scheduled for 1300-1600 and will be preceded by a light lunch
and followed by a reception.<br>
<br>
There will be no charge but we do request that you register in advance
so we know how many people to expect at each venue.<br>
<br>
Complete details on the event, including locations, logistics, and a
link to the registration form, is at <a
 href="http://www.calconnect.org/meetcalconnect.shtml">http://www.calconnect.org/meetcalconnect.shtml</a>.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave Thewlis<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font size="-1"><b>Dave Thewlis, Executive Director<br>
Calconnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium</b><br>
+1 707 840 9391 (voice) &middot; +1 707 498 2238 (mobile)<br>
<a href="http://www.calconnect.org">http://www.calconnect.org</a> &middot; <a
 href="mailto:Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org">Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org</a>
</font></div>
</body>
</html>

--------------000408070809000800090307--

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_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] \t disallowed in "text" value
 type but allowed in	root "value" type
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On 10/20/08 8:38 PM, Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
>
> --On October 20, 2008 2:24:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux
> <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>> To be consistent with what's done with param-value, I propose to change:
>>
>>      TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>>                   %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>>
>> to:
>>
>>      TSAFE-CHAR = WSP / %x21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>>                   %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>>
>> That is, HTAB (US-ASCII decimal 9) would now be allowed and would NOT
>> need to be escaped with a backslash.
>>      
>
> I think this is a reasonable change, though in theory it would break a
> very, very strict 2445 parser!
>
>    

Has anyone tested this against common parsers?

Eliot
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Calendaring and Scheduling Standards Simplification Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Internet Calendaring and Scheduling Core Object Specification (iCalendar)
	Author(s)       : B. Desruisseaux
	Filename        : draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-09.txt
	Pages           : 186
	Date            : 2008-10-31

This document defines the iCalendar data format for representing and
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RFC Editor prior to publication)

This document is a product of the Calendaring and Scheduling
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Calendaring and Scheduling Standards Simplification Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Internet Calendaring and Scheduling Core Object Specification (iCalendar)
	Author(s)       : B. Desruisseaux
	Filename        : draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-09.txt
	Pages           : 186
	Date            : 2008-10-31

This document defines the iCalendar data format for representing and
exchanging calendaring and scheduling information such as events, to-
dos, journal entries and free/busy information, independent of any
particular calendar service or protocol.Editorial Note (To be removed by
RFC Editor prior to publication)

This document is a product of the Calendaring and Scheduling
Standards Simplification (Calsify) working group of the Internet
Engineering Task Force.  Comments on this draft are welcomed, and
should be addressed to the ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org [1] mailing
list.

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http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-09.txt

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Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] \t disallowed in "text" value type but allowed in	root "value" type
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On 10/20/08 8:38 PM, Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
>
> --On October 20, 2008 2:24:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux
> <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>> To be consistent with what's done with param-value, I propose to change:
>>
>>      TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>>                   %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>>
>> to:
>>
>>      TSAFE-CHAR = WSP / %x21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>>                   %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>>
>> That is, HTAB (US-ASCII decimal 9) would now be allowed and would NOT
>> need to be escaped with a backslash.
>>      
>
> I think this is a reasonable change, though in theory it would break a
> very, very strict 2445 parser!
>
>    

Has anyone tested this against common parsers?

Eliot


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From: Dave Thewlis <Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] An Invitation to Meet CalConnect in Europe in November
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Dear Folks,

CalConnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium - will be holding 
an introductory Meet CalConnect event in Europe in early November, and I 
would like to invite you to one of the two sessions to introduce 
CalConnect and give you a chance to learn more about who we are, what we 
do, and how we are working to further interoperable Calendaring and 
Scheduling. 

The event will be held the afternoons of Friday November 7th in Prague, 
Czech Republic, and Monday November 10th in London, England.  Each event 
is scheduled for 1300-1600 and will be preceded by a light lunch and 
followed by a reception.

There will be no charge but we do request that you register in advance 
so we know how many people to expect at each venue.

Complete details on the event, including locations, logistics, and a 
link to the registration form, is at 
http://www.calconnect.org/meetcalconnect.shtml. 

Best Regards,

Dave Thewlis

-- 
*Dave Thewlis, Executive Director
Calconnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium*
+1 707 840 9391 (voice) · +1 707 498 2238 (mobile)
http://www.calconnect.org · Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org 
<mailto:Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>

--------------000408070809000800090307
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear Folks,<br>
<br>
CalConnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium - will be
holding an introductory Meet CalConnect event in Europe in early
November, and I would like to invite you to one of the two sessions to
introduce CalConnect and give you a chance to learn more about who we
are, what we do, and how we are working to further interoperable
Calendaring and Scheduling.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
The event will be held the afternoons of Friday November 7th in Prague,
Czech Republic, and Monday November 10th in London, England.&nbsp; Each
event is scheduled for 1300-1600 and will be preceded by a light lunch
and followed by a reception.<br>
<br>
There will be no charge but we do request that you register in advance
so we know how many people to expect at each venue.<br>
<br>
Complete details on the event, including locations, logistics, and a
link to the registration form, is at <a
 href="http://www.calconnect.org/meetcalconnect.shtml">http://www.calconnect.org/meetcalconnect.shtml</a>.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave Thewlis<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font size="-1"><b>Dave Thewlis, Executive Director<br>
Calconnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium</b><br>
+1 707 840 9391 (voice) &middot; +1 707 498 2238 (mobile)<br>
<a href="http://www.calconnect.org">http://www.calconnect.org</a> &middot; <a
 href="mailto:Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org">Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org</a>
</font></div>
</body>
</html>

--------------000408070809000800090307--


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:38:09 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>, Nigel Swinson <Nigel.Swinson@mailsite.com>
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Cc: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] \t disallowed in "text" value type but allowed in	root "value" type
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 20, 2008 2:24:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

> To be consistent with what's done with param-value, I propose to change:
>
>     TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>                  %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>
> to:
>
>     TSAFE-CHAR = WSP / %x21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>                  %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>
> That is, HTAB (US-ASCII decimal 9) would now be allowed and would NOT
> need to be escaped with a backslash.

I think this is a reasonable change, though in theory it would break a 
very, very strict 2445 parser!

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] \t disallowed in "text" value type but allowed in	root "value" type
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To be consistent with what's done with param-value, I propose to change:

    TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
                 %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII

to:

    TSAFE-CHAR = WSP / %x21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
                 %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII

That is, HTAB (US-ASCII decimal 9) would now be allowed and would NOT 
need to be escaped with a backslash.

Cheers,
Bernard

Nigel Swinson wrote:
> Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but I think the grammer says that 
> \t (0x09) isn't allowed in a text value:
>  
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#section-3.3.11
> 
>         text       = *(TSAFE-CHAR / ":" / DQUOTE / ESCAPED-CHAR)
>            ; Folded according to description above
> 
>         ESCAPED-CHAR = ("\\" / "\;" / "\," / "\N" / "\n")
>            ; \\ encodes \, \N or \n encodes newline
>            ; \; encodes ;, \, encodes ,
> 
>         TSAFE-CHAR = %x20-21 / %x23-2B / %x2D-39 / %x3C-5B /
>                      %x5D-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>            ; Any character except CTLs not needed by the current
>            ; character set, DQUOTE, ";", ":", "\", ","
> 
> Was this a mistake, or a deliberate choice?  It seem especially wierd 
> given that \t is allowed in a "value", and I thought the whole intention 
> of the "text" value type was to allow more characters to be in a value 
> than what "value" allowed.
>  
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#section-3.1
> 
>       contentline   = name *(";" param ) ":" value CRLF
> 
>  
> 
>       value         = *VALUE-CHAR
> 
>       VALUE-CHAR    = WSP / %x21-7E / NON-US-ASCII
>       ; Any textual character
> 
> I think it is a mistake, one that might be easy to rectify should there be a V09?
> 
> Nigel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-calsify mailing list
> Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
> http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify



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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] RK iTIP Issue #15
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I propose to change the text in section 3.6.5. Time Zone Component of 
rfc2445bis, from:

   Alternatively, the "RDATE" property can be used to define the onset
   of the observance by giving the individual onset date and times.

to:

   The "RDATE" property can also be used to define the onset
   of the observance by giving the individual onset date and times.

Cheers,
Bernard


Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi,
> Rheinhold notes:
> 
>     Sec. 3.1.2 (p.14, VTIMEZONE table): This table states that RRULE and
>     RDATE MUST NOT both be present at the same time. rfc2445bis does not
>     have such a restriction, so that some VTIMEZONE ob jects, which are
>     valid in rfc2445bis, cannot be used for group scheduling. I propose to
>     remove that restriction.
> 
> Now in 2445bis the abnf for a VTIMEZONE says nothing about whether RRULE 
> and RDATE are mutually exclusive. However, in the text that follows RRULE 
> is described, then it says:
> 
>     Alternatively, the "RDATE" property can be used ...
> 
> That later sentence could be read to mean that RRULE can be used or RDATE 
> can be used instead. i.e. RRULE and RDATE are mutually exclusive as 
> indicated in 2446bis.
> 
> So what is the right behavior? Can RRULE and RDATE both appear in a 
> STANDARD or DAYLIGHT component? If the ABNF is correct, then I suggest some 
> re-wording should be done to the sentence I quoted above and 2446bis has to 
> be corrected.
> 



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Cc: "ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org" <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, ext Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: [ietf-calsify] Editorial issues + Issue 60 [Was: Re: [Ietf-calsify] Re: AD review on 2445bis]
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I'm following up on the issues raised by Lisa that were classified as 
Editorial by Aki.  See comments below.

Aki Niemi wrote:
> [CC'd the working group list]
> 
> Hi Lisa,
> 
> Overall, I think these comments fall into two categories; editorial and
> substantial. I've labeled the issues below, and will start a new thread
> on each substantial issue on the list.
> 
> AFAIK, none of the issues you mention have been brought up before. In
> other words, good catches. ;)
> 
> Cheers,
> Aki
> 
> to, 2008-05-29 kello 13:49 -0700, ext Lisa Dusseault kirjoitti:
>> Section references:  Can we break section 3 down for publication?  It  
>> would be so much easier to remember and refer to specific sections of  
>> this document if we had section "4.4." be the UID parameter section  
>> instead of 3.8.4.7.    My eyes just cross at the fourth level of  
>> section nesting.  I am probably abnormally insistent about avoiding  
>> that fourth hierarchy level, and you may all think I'm crazy to  
>> suggest the work and change.  Nevertheless, I'll go ahead and suggest,  
>> without any further pressure, a breakdown and ordering that I,  
>> speaking as an individual and not as an AD (is that enough  
>> disclaimers), would prefer:
>> 	Section 3:   iCalendar Syntax
>> 		Section 3.1: Content lines
>> 		Section 3.2: Value Data Types
>>
>> 	Section 4: ICalendar ojects and Components
>>   		Section 4.1: iCalendar object
>> 		Section 4.2: Components
>>
>> 	Section 5: Properties
>> 		Section 5.1: Property Parameters
>> 		Section 5.2: Calendar Properties
>> 		Section 5.3: Descriptive Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.4: Date and Time Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.5: Time Zone Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.6: Relationship Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.7: Recurrence Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.8: Alarm Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.9: Change Management Component Properties
>> 		Section 5.10: Miscellaneous Component Properties
>>
>> 	Section 6: iCalendar Object examples
>>
>> 	... all further sections ++2
> 
> [editorial]
> 
> I think this change makes sense.

I personally don't see much benefit in doing this change.
No change done.

> 
>> Section -by-section comments:
>>
>> Section 1: This sentence is really out of date/touch:
>> 					However, the longer term growth of
>>     calendaring and scheduling is currently limited by the lack of
>>     Internet standards for the message content types that are central to
>>     these knowledgeware applications.
>>
>> I think we can just drop it unless you think there's something  
>> important to preserve.
> 
> [editorial]

Done.

> 
> I agree.
> 
>> Section 3.2.1:
>> The ALTREP parameter can be used in a lot of places.  I bet it's not  
>> supported everywhere, and some usages of ALTREP could even be  
>> dangerous.  Some health warnings should be added here at least.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
> I think this is also related to another issue listed below on
> strengthening the security considerations section of the draft.
> 
>> Section 3.2.6, DIR parameter:  This should be limited to LDAP URLs  
>> only, if not by requirement then at least by noting that other types  
>> of URLs are likely to be harmful to interoperability.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.2.10: When a language tag can be used to distinguish between  
>> multiple values, we do need a little guidance about how this is  
>> intended to be used.  How is it used in practice?   Are clients  
>> expected to display only the one that is their most preferred language  
>> among the choices, or are clients expected to display all values and  
>> use the language tag to help display properly?
> 
> [editorial]

This issue has already been raised on the mailing list, see:

http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2006-November/001343.html
http://www.ofcourseimright.com/cgi-bin/roundup/calsify/issue60

but never actually addressed in the draft. At some point issue 60 and 35
got mixed up. Going back to the issue tracker I found the following
update from Eliot:

   > msg140 (view)  	Author: lear  	Date: 2006-11-16.14:49:39
   >
   > Consensus to NOT handle multiple LANGUAGE values.
   > Better done in MIME.

As such, I'm proposing the following changes:

--- In RFC2445 section 4.1.2 Multiple Values

Add:

    Multi-valued properties MUST NOT be used to specify multiple language
    variants of the same value. Calendar applications SHOULD display all
    values.

--- In RFC2445 section 4.6.5 Time Zone Component

Change:

    The optional "TZNAME" property is the customary name for the time
    zone. It may be specified multiple times, to allow for specifying
    multiple language variants of the time zone names. This could be used
    for displaying dates.

to:

    The optional "TZNAME" property is the customary name for the time
    zone.  This could be used for displaying dates.


--- In RFC2445 section 4.8.3.2 Time Zone Name

Change:

   Description: This property may be specified in multiple languages; in
   order to provide for different language requirements.

to:

   Description: This property specifies a customary name that can be used
   when displaying dates that occur during the observance defined by the
   time zone sub-component.

--- In RFC2445 section 4.8.3.2 Time Zone Name

Change:

    Example: The following are example of this property:

      TZNAME:EST

    The following is an example of this property when two different
    languages for the time zone name are specified:

      TZNAME;LANGUAGE=en:EST
      TZNAME;LANGUAGE=fr-CA:HNE

to:

    Example: The following are examples of this property:

      TZNAME:EST

      TZNAME;LANGUAGE=fr-CA:HNE

> 
> I suspect this simply needs an implementation note on the subject.
> 
>> Section 3.2.15: RELTYPE.  What does it mean that a calendar component  
>> referenced is the SIBLING of this one?  How is a user agent supposed  
>> to use this information?  Is this parameter ever used except on  
>> RELATED-TO?  Is it actually in use even there?  Health warnings at  
>> least.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.6.2: VTODO.  Is it now more common for VTODOs to appear in  
>> the same iCalendar document as VEVENTS?  A few years ago that was not  
>> the case.  Can we now state that user agents SHOULD be able to handle  
>> VTODOs as well as VEVENTS?
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.6.3: VJOURNAL: This needs a health warning even more than  
>> VTODO does; some discussion about what users actually do with VJOURNAL  
>> components, if ever, but nevertheless how preserving user data is  
>> important...
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.8.1.10:  Is there some colloquial meaning of "raton- 
>> laveur"?  A naive translation has this as "small rat washer"  and I'm  
>> intrigued by why this would be a required resource for an event...  :)
> 
> [editorial]
> 
> Bernard? 

Raton-laveur is the French name for "raccoon".  It's a pretty dumb
example if you ask me. I'll change the example to:

   RESOURCES;LANGUAGE=fr:Nettoyeur haute pression

Something Lisa has reported to enjoy ;-)

http://nih.blogspot.com/2006/05/i-borrowed-my-neighbours-pressure.html

> 
>> Section 3.8.4.3, 3.8.4.4:   CONTACT and ORGANIZER and RECURRENCE-ID  
>> are defined on VJOURNAL items.  I have no idea what they *mean* on  
>> VJOURNAL.
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 3.8.8.2:  X- Properties:  We should recommend AGAINST using  
>> these with user-readable strings like
> 
> I think there's some text missing here. Can you clarify?
> 
>> Section 5:  List item 2 is blank. So is #7.
> 
> [editorial]

Fixed.

> 
>> Section 7:  This is probably incomplete.  For example, there are  
>> attacks with embedded HTML that are well-known, and could apply to any  
>> usage of iCalendar.   Have we done brainstorming about other issues?
> 
> [substantial]
> 
>> Section 8:  It would help to add that we are now *updating* IANA  
>> registries that were first established with RFC 2445.  (If we're not  
>> making any changes, it would be good to say that instead).  IANA reads  
>> this section mostly, and depends on this section to figure out what to  
>> do...  Since these registries already exist, we can now put URLs in to  
>> this document to be extra helpful to readers and to the IANA.
> 
> [editorial]
> 
> Good point.

Actually, these registries don't already exist.

> 
> Cheers,
> Aki
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-calsify mailing list
> Ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
> http://lists.osafoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-calsify
> 


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:44:10 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Calsify <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Progress on 2446bis review
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Hi folks,
The IETF tools site wiki has now been turned on (thanks to the chairs for 
doing that). I have created a page to track the 2446bis work:

<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/calsify/trac/wiki/RFC2446bis>

At present I am working through Reinhold Kainhofer's comprehensive review. 
107 of 123 issues have been addressed one way or another. In most cases 
changes were made as suggested by Reinhold. In a few cases changes were not 
made as I felt the spec was fine. Please review the checklist together with 
Reinhold's document to make sure you are on board with the changes or 
non-changes.

There are a few outstanding issues that I think warrant discussion on the 
list and I will be starting email threads on those.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo




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Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:53:17 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] RK iTIP Issue #15
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Hi,
Rheinhold notes:

    Sec. 3.1.2 (p.14, VTIMEZONE table): This table states that RRULE and
    RDATE MUST NOT both be present at the same time. rfc2445bis does not
    have such a restriction, so that some VTIMEZONE ob jects, which are
    valid in rfc2445bis, cannot be used for group scheduling. I propose to
    remove that restriction.

Now in 2445bis the abnf for a VTIMEZONE says nothing about whether RRULE 
and RDATE are mutually exclusive. However, in the text that follows RRULE 
is described, then it says:

    Alternatively, the "RDATE" property can be used ...

That later sentence could be read to mean that RRULE can be used or RDATE 
can be used instead. i.e. RRULE and RDATE are mutually exclusive as 
indicated in 2446bis.

So what is the right behavior? Can RRULE and RDATE both appear in a 
STANDARD or DAYLIGHT component? If the ABNF is correct, then I suggest some 
re-wording should be done to the sentence I quoted above and 2446bis has to 
be corrected.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify]Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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I changed the example as suggested by Nigel.

Cheers,
Bernard

Nigel Swinson wrote:
>>   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
>>   at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
>>   is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
>>   a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
>>   DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
>>   MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
>>   within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.
> 
> I think I'd rather
> 
>   MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
> -   within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.
> +   within a DAILY rule, a value of "8" means every eight days.
> 
> The phrase "every other day" is pretty quirky English, I'd be worried 
> about it being misunderstood.
> 
> Nigel
> 



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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
> 
> --On October 16, 2008 4:22:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
> <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
>>    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
>>    at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
>>    is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
>>    a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
>>    DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
>>    MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
>>    within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.
> 
> Alternative first sentence:
> 
>    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing the
>    interval from one recurrence instance to the next.
> 

Actually, we shouldn't talk about "recurrence instance" here. Depending 
on other rule parts there may not be a recurrence instance at the next 
interval.

I'll go with the exact phrasing proposed by Reinhold, that is:

   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
   at which intervals the recurrence rule repeats.

Cheers,
Bernard


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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>, Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] RK-iTIP-100 (related to iCalendar issue 27) [Was: Re: Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]]
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 17, 2008 10:04:55 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

> Section 4.5.7.2 Calculating due dates in recurring VTODOs should be
> removed from rfc2446bis (iTIP). The first sentence is actually wrong.
> The due date is NOT ``specified using the "RECURRENCE-ID" property''.
> You are correct in saying that this information belongs in rfc2445bis.
>
> That being said, I don't believe any text change is required in
> rfc2445bis (iCalendar). I think the modification that was done to the
> last paragraph of the Description field of the RRULE property in section
> 3.8.5.3 Recurrence Rule (issue 27) is sufficient.  See:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#page-126

I agree that 4.5.7.2 in 2446bis is redundant and I have removed it from my 
working copy of the draft.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Subject: [ietf-calsify] RK-iTIP-100 (related to iCalendar issue 27) [Was: Re: Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]]
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Hi Reinhold,

Section 4.5.7.2 Calculating due dates in recurring VTODOs should be 
removed from rfc2446bis (iTIP). The first sentence is actually wrong. 
The due date is NOT ``specified using the "RECURRENCE-ID" property''. 
You are correct in saying that this information belongs in rfc2445bis.

That being said, I don't believe any text change is required in 
rfc2445bis (iCalendar). I think the modification that was done to the 
last paragraph of the Description field of the RRULE property in section 
3.8.5.3 Recurrence Rule (issue 27) is sufficient.  See:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-08#page-126

Thanks,
Bernard

Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> BTW, I realized that i didn't mention the rfc2446bis issue #100 in my issues 
> list for rfc2445bis: 
> 
> RFC2446bis Sec. 4.5.7.2 (p.105): This section talks about how recurrence works 
> in general for to-dos, which would much better belong in rfc2445bis rather 
> than rfc2446bis. So I think this whole section should be moved to rfc2445bis. 
> Also, this section speaks of the due date specified in a "REQUEST", while of 
> course the same holds true for PUBLISH, ADD, COUNTER, etc., too. It is not 
> even specific to iTIP, but rather a general issue in iCalendar. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Reinhold
> 
> - -- 
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
> email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
>  * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
>  * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
>  * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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BTW, I realized that i didn't mention the rfc2446bis issue #100 in my issues 
list for rfc2445bis: 

RFC2446bis Sec. 4.5.7.2 (p.105): This section talks about how recurrence works 
in general for to-dos, which would much better belong in rfc2445bis rather 
than rfc2446bis. So I think this whole section should be moved to rfc2445bis. 
Also, this section speaks of the due date specified in a "REQUEST", while of 
course the same holds true for PUBLISH, ADD, COUNTER, etc., too. It is not 
even specific to iTIP, but rather a general issue in iCalendar. 

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>, Tim Hare <TimHare@comcast.net>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue	37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Hi Reinhold,

--On October 17, 2008 1:43:52 AM +0200 Reinhold Kainhofer 
<reinhold@kainhofer.com> wrote:

>> In what use case during scheduling is the start of the event being
>> scheduled not relevant and not necessary?
>
> When sending a REFRESH or DECLINECOUNTER message, it contains a VEVENT
> with  only the UID, but no specific further information (after all, you
> ask the  organizer for the latest version, so you don't have to send any
> of your  outdated information, including DTSTART).

Also CANCEL - all that is needed to cancel a meeting is the 
UID/RECURRENCE-ID.


-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #2: DIR parameter
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Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Cyrus Daboo:
> Hi Bernard,
>
> --On October 6, 2008 11:20:33 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux
>
> <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:
> >> There needs to be a statement as to what URIs are allowed and how they
> >> are to be resolved (in the case of HTTP and HTTPs).
> >
> > I propose to change:
> >
> >    The parameter value is a URI.
> >
> > to:
> >
> >    The parameter value SHOULD be a CID [RFC2392], DATA [RFC2397],
> >    FILE [RFC1738], FTP [RFC1738], HTTP [RFC2616], HTTPS [RFC2818],
> >    LDAP [RFC4516], or MID [RFC2392] URI.
> >
> > in section 3.2.6. Directory Entry Reference.
>
> OK, but I would drop the file: URL as that has been used as a vector for
> attack (e.g. send me file:/etc/passwd) - and it really only makes sense to
> one person anyway.

Or to a whole working group if it refers to a file on a share drive. In these 
circumstances, file:// makes a lot of sense.

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Am Freitag, 17. Oktober 2008 schrieb Tim Hare:
> In what use case during scheduling is the start of the event being
> scheduled not relevant and not necessary?

When sending a REFRESH or DECLINECOUNTER message, it contains a VEVENT with 
only the UID, but no specific further information (after all, you ask the 
organizer for the latest version, so you don't have to send any of your 
outdated information, including DTSTART).

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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From: "Tim Hare" <TimHare@comcast.net>
To: "'Bernard Desruisseaux'" <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>, "'Reinhold Kainhofer'" <reinhold@kainhofer.com>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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In what use case during scheduling is the start of the event being scheduled
not relevant and not necessary?

I am opposed to allowing "waivers" on the general principle that we will end
right back where we started with multiple incompatible implementations.

As an end user I'd be opposed, because I could never tell which of my
colleagues' many possible systems would waive some requirements.

Tim Hare
Interested Bystander, Non-Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org
[mailto:ietf-calsify-bounces@osafoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bernard
Desruisseaux
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:34 AM
To: Reinhold Kainhofer
Cc: Calsify WG
Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37)
[Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]

Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>
> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART 
> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY, REFRESH 
> and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently, it MUST NOT be 
> present for these methods).

In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:

   Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
   defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
   REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.

In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).

Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time.  The problem we
have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a VEVENT calendar
component is not an event. It is a scheduling message that contains all or
some information about an event. As such different restrictions may apply to
scheduling messages.

I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of Section
1 Introduction:

Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add or
waive restrictions on the components and properties that are required,
optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its iCalendar object
method value.

Thanks,
Bernard
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-5 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

 > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
 >
 > 5. Sec. "3.8.4.7. Unique Identifier" (p.120f): As detailled in issue
 > * above, it should be clarified how spaces in a UID property value
 > should be handled. In particular, are they allowed at all? Are
 > leading or trailing spaces to be ignored when looking for or
 > comparing UIDs?

BTW, the recommended syntax of the "UID" property was previously 
discussed on the list, though from a different angle:

http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2007-February/001549.html

If we are to discourage the use of specific characters perhaps '/', '?' 
and '&' should be added to the list since some CalDAV clients are using 
the UID value as the name of the calendar object resource. Limiting 
ourselves to US-ASCII would also help avoid issues.

Can you propose a textual change?

Cheers,
Bernard



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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:44:36 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>, Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify]	Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 16, 2008 4:22:51 PM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

>    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
>    at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
>    is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
>    a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
>    DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
>    MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
>    within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.

Alternative first sentence:

    The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing the
    interval from one recurrence instance to the next.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-4 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

 > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
 >
 > 4. Sec. "3.3.10. Recurrence Rule" (p.40): As discussed in issue *
 > for Sec. 4.4 above, the description of INTERVAL can possibly be
 > misunderstood. The next sentence explains it better, but it also
 > only uses an interval of 1. Furthermore, anyone who misunderstood
 > the first, ambiguous sentence will not be corrected by that second
 > sentence. I propose to change the first sentence to:
 >
 >      The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer
 >      representing  at which intervals the recurrence rule
 >      repeats.
 >
 >   Furthermore, I would add one more sentence to that paragraph:
 >
 >      A value of "2" means for example every other day for a DAILY
 >      rule, etc.
 >
 >   This explains the use of INTERVAL much better than the default
 >   value of "1".

I propose to change:

   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
   how often the recurrence rule repeats.  The default value is "1",
   meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, or every minute for a
   MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
   DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
   MONTHLY rule and every year for a YEARLY rule.

to:

   The INTERVAL rule part contains a positive integer representing
   at which intervals the recurrence instances occur.  The default value
   is "1", meaning every second for a SECONDLY rule, every minute for
   a MINUTELY rule, every hour for an HOURLY rule, every day for a
   DAILY rule, every week for a WEEKLY rule, every month for a
   MONTHLY rule, and every year for a YEARLY rule.  For example,
   within a DAILY rule, a value of "2" means every other day.

Thanks,
Bernard


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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-3 in rfc2445bis-08 [Was: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>
> 3. Sec. "3.8.7.4. Sequence Number" (p.142): It should be clarified
> whether the SEQUENCE number is supposed to be the same for all
> different components with the same UID (but differing in their use
> of RECURRENCE-ID to identify particular instances of a recurring
> sequence) or whether they can have different SEQUENCE numbers
> (see also issue * above).

My understanding is that they can have different sequence numbers.

If the Organizer was required to increment the "SEQUENCE" number of all 
recurrence instances, the Organizer would then end up discarding replies 
  with "SEQUENCE" value smaller than the current "SEQUENCE" for 
recurrence instances that were not impacted by the last change. Not ideal.

Shall I add the following text at the end of the Description field of 
section 3.8.7.4 Sequence Number?

   Recurrence instances of a recurring component MAY have different
   sequence numbers.

Cheers,
Bernard


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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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Cc: Calsify WG <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@fam.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Here are textual changes that I believe match Reinhold's statement.

In section 3.6.1 Event Component, change:

    ; the following are REQUIRED,
    ; but MUST NOT occur more than once

    dtstamp / dtstart / uid /

to:

    ; the following are REQUIRED,
    ; but MUST NOT occur more than once

    dtstamp / uid /

    ; the following is REQUIRED if the component
    ; appears in an iCalendar object that doesn't
    ; specify the "METHOD" property, otherwise it
    ; is OPTIONAL, in any case it MUST NOT occur
    ; more than once

    dtstart /


In section 3.8.2.4 Date/Time Start, change:

    This property is REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components
    and in all types of recurring calendar components.

to:

    This property is REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components
    and in all types of recurring calendar components contained
    in iCalendar objects that don't specify the "METHOD" property,
    otherwise it is OPTIONAL.

Cheers,
Bernard

Eliot Lear wrote:
> On 10/16/08 8:39 AM, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
>>   
>>> Hi Reinhold,
>>>
>>> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38 
>>>
>>>
>>>     
>>>> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
>>>> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
>>>> REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
>>>> it MUST NOT be present for these methods).
>>>>        
>>> In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:
>>>
>>>     Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
>>>     defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
>>>     REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.
>>>
>>> In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).
>>>
>>> Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time. The
>>> problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a
>>> VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message
>>> that contains all or some information about an event. As such different
>>> restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.
>>>
>>> I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of
>>> Section 1 Introduction:
>>>      
>>
>> Actually, several applications/libraries refuse to load a VEVENT if it 
>> does
>> not adhere to the restrictions of RFC2445. So parsing schedulling 
>> messages
>> with these libraries would no longer be possible.
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add
>>> or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are
>>> required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its
>>> iCalendar object method value.
>>>      
>>
>> So, basically, this is like saying: "Here we define a format with several
>> property restrictions. But, if you are writing a parser/validator, you 
>> can't
>> rely on these restrictions being fulfilled, because in some 
>> circumstances and
>> for some uses of the format these restrictions are not really 
>> restrictions."
>> I don't like such an implicit statement in a standard document...
>>
>> Also, by this move, we are basically forking rfc2446bis off of the 
>> iCalendar
>> format, which I also don't like.
>>    
> 
> I would agree with this concern.
> 
>> The question is: Do we want rfc2445bis to be a general format, which 
>> can also
>> be used for schedulling, or do we want two different (although
>> similar-looking) formats for calendar information and for schedulling?
>>
>> I would prefer a solution, which allows DTSTART to be absent from a 
>> VEVENT
>> syntactically, but semantically require it for VEVENTs that really 
>> describe
>> an event to have DTSTART present.
>> This would make implementation much easier. With the current spec, one 
>> cannot
>> simply reuse an RFC2445bis validator and check the additional 
>> restrictions in
>> rfc 2446bis, but has to do the validation from scratch (because valid
>> rfc2446bis objects are not necessarily rfc2445bis objects...)
>> It's much easier to check for additional restrictions than to waive some
>> restrictions.
>>    
> 
> Can you provide a textual change to match this statement?
> 
> Eliot
> 



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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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On 10/16/08 8:39 AM, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
>    
>> Hi Reinhold,
>>
>> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>>
>>      
>>> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>>>
>>> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
>>> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
>>> REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
>>> it MUST NOT be present for these methods).
>>>        
>> In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:
>>
>>     Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
>>     defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
>>     REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.
>>
>> In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).
>>
>> Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time. The
>> problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a
>> VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message
>> that contains all or some information about an event. As such different
>> restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.
>>
>> I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of
>> Section 1 Introduction:
>>      
>
> Actually, several applications/libraries refuse to load a VEVENT if it does
> not adhere to the restrictions of RFC2445. So parsing schedulling messages
> with these libraries would no longer be possible.
>
>
>    
>> Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add
>> or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are
>> required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its
>> iCalendar object method value.
>>      
>
> So, basically, this is like saying: "Here we define a format with several
> property restrictions. But, if you are writing a parser/validator, you can't
> rely on these restrictions being fulfilled, because in some circumstances and
> for some uses of the format these restrictions are not really restrictions."
> I don't like such an implicit statement in a standard document...
>
> Also, by this move, we are basically forking rfc2446bis off of the iCalendar
> format, which I also don't like.
>    

I would agree with this concern.

> The question is: Do we want rfc2445bis to be a general format, which can also
> be used for schedulling, or do we want two different (although
> similar-looking) formats for calendar information and for schedulling?
>
> I would prefer a solution, which allows DTSTART to be absent from a VEVENT
> syntactically, but semantically require it for VEVENTs that really describe
> an event to have DTSTART present.
> This would make implementation much easier. With the current spec, one cannot
> simply reuse an RFC2445bis validator and check the additional restrictions in
> rfc 2446bis, but has to do the validation from scratch (because valid
> rfc2446bis objects are not necessarily rfc2445bis objects...)
> It's much easier to check for additional restrictions than to waive some
> restrictions.
>    

Can you provide a textual change to match this statement?

Eliot


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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Reinhold,

On 10/16/08 9:12 AM, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
>    
>> Hi Reinhold,
>>
>> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>>
>>      
>>> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>>>        
> [...]
>
> BTW, would it still make sense if I went through rfc2445bis-08 like I did with
> rfc2446bis-07, or is it too late already for that ?
>    

We have already been through last call on rfc2445bis-08 and I would 
rather not go through that process again.  We need to bring the process 
to a close.

Eliot


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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #4: Supporting both VTODO and VEVENT in the same iCalendar stream
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 6, 2008 11:51:49 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

>   Applications that support importing iCalendar objects SHOULD
>   support all of the component types defined in this document,
>   and SHOULD NOT silently drop any components as that can lead
>   to user data loss.

Looks OK.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #2: DIR parameter
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Hi Bernard,

--On October 6, 2008 11:20:33 AM -0400 Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> wrote:

>> There needs to be a statement as to what URIs are allowed and how they
>> are to be resolved (in the case of HTTP and HTTPs).
>
> I propose to change:
>
>    The parameter value is a URI.
>
> to:
>
>    The parameter value SHOULD be a CID [RFC2392], DATA [RFC2397],
>    FILE [RFC1738], FTP [RFC1738], HTTP [RFC2616], HTTPS [RFC2818],
>    LDAP [RFC4516], or MID [RFC2392] URI.
>
> in section 3.2.6. Directory Entry Reference.

OK, but I would drop the file: URL as that has been used as a vector for 
attack (e.g. send me file:/etc/passwd) - and it really only makes sense to 
one person anyway.

I also think we should add a sentence to security considerations to 
re-emphasize the fact that use of URLs is subject to additional issues:

"This specification includes several places where URLs are used to 
represent data that is expected to be accessed via the URL. In each case 
the security considerations pertaining to the URL scheme MUST be adhered 
to."

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
> Hi Reinhold,
>
> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>
> > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
[...]

BTW, would it still make sense if I went through rfc2445bis-08 like I did with 
rfc2446bis-07, or is it too late already for that ?

Cheers,
Reinhold
- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 schrieb Bernard Desruisseaux:
> Hi Reinhold,
>
> http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38
>
> > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
> >
> > 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
> > optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
> > REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
> > it MUST NOT be present for these methods).
>
> In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:
>
>    Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
>    defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
>    REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.
>
> In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).
>
> Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time. The
> problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a
> VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message
> that contains all or some information about an event. As such different
> restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.
>
> I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of
> Section 1 Introduction:

Actually, several applications/libraries refuse to load a VEVENT if it does 
not adhere to the restrictions of RFC2445. So parsing schedulling messages 
with these libraries would no longer be possible.


> Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add
> or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are
> required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its
> iCalendar object method value.

So, basically, this is like saying: "Here we define a format with several 
property restrictions. But, if you are writing a parser/validator, you can't 
rely on these restrictions being fulfilled, because in some circumstances and 
for some uses of the format these restrictions are not really restrictions." 
I don't like such an implicit statement in a standard document...

Also, by this move, we are basically forking rfc2446bis off of the iCalendar 
format, which I also don't like.

The question is: Do we want rfc2445bis to be a general format, which can also 
be used for schedulling, or do we want two different (although 
similar-looking) formats for calendar information and for schedulling?

I would prefer a solution, which allows DTSTART to be absent from a VEVENT 
syntactically, but semantically require it for VEVENTs that really describe 
an event to have DTSTART present.
This would make implementation much easier. With the current spec, one cannot 
simply reuse an RFC2445bis validator and check the additional restrictions in 
rfc 2446bis, but has to do the validation from scratch (because valid 
rfc2446bis objects are not necessarily rfc2445bis objects...)
It's much easier to check for additional restrictions than to waive some 
restrictions.

Cheers,
Reinhold
- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-2 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 79) [Was: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

 > Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
 >
 > 2. Sec. "3.6.5. Time Zone Component" (p.71): The text above the
 > example says that this is an example of a time zone using the
 > RDATE property. The example, however, does not contain any RDATE.

The RDATE properties were removed from the example when issue 79
was addressed in the document.

OLD TEXT:

This is an example showing time zone information for New York City
using "RDATE" property.

NEW TEXT:

This is an example showing time zone information for New York City
using only the "DTSTART" property.

Thanks,
Bernard


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Subject: [ietf-calsify] Issue RK-1 in rfc2445bis-08 (related to issue 37) [Was: IETF Review of the RFC 2446bis-07 (iTIP) draft]
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Hi Reinhold,

http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2446bis_2008-09.html#id38

> Issues in rfc2445bis-08:
>
> 1. Sec. "3.6.1. Event Component" (p.54): Either make the DTSTART
> optional in rfc2445bis again or make it REQUIRED in the REPLY,
> REFRESH and DECLINECOUNTER methods in rfc2446bis (currently,
> it MUST NOT be present for these methods).

In section 4.8.2.4 Date/Time Start of RFC2445 it already specified:

   Description: Within the "VEVENT" calendar component, this property
   defines the start date and time for the event. The property is
   REQUIRED in "VEVENT" calendar components.

In rfc2445bis we changed the ABNF to match this statement (issue 37).

Clearly, we want to require all events to have a start time.  The 
problem we have here, is that a scheduling message that contains a 
VEVENT calendar component is not an event. It is a scheduling message 
that contains all or some information about an event. As such different 
restrictions may apply to scheduling messages.

I propose to clarify this by adding the following text at the end of 
Section 1 Introduction:

Scheduling protocols, such as iTIP [I-D.ietf-calsify-2446bis], MAY add 
or waive restrictions on the components and properties that are 
required, optional or excluded from an iCalendar object based on its 
iCalendar object method value.

Thanks,
Bernard


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Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #4: Supporting both VTODO and VEVENT in the same iCalendar stream
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Eliot Lear wrote:
> AD Issue 4:
> 
> Bernard has requested text, but there is consensus that text is needed 
> and we are currently blocking on that.

I propose to add the following sentence, proposed by Lisa, at the end of 
section 3.6. Calendar Components:

  Applications that support importing iCalendar objects SHOULD
  support all of the component types defined in this document,
  and SHOULD NOT silently drop any components as that can lead
  to user data loss.

Cheers,
Bernard


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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:20:33 -0400
From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Cc: "ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org" <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>, Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Re: status of RFC 2445bis: AD Issue #2: DIR parameter
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Eliot Lear wrote:

> AD Issue 2:
> 
> There needs to be a statement as to what URIs are allowed and how they 
> are to be resolved (in the case of HTTP and HTTPs).

I propose to change:

   The parameter value is a URI.

to:

   The parameter value SHOULD be a CID [RFC2392], DATA [RFC2397],
   FILE [RFC1738], FTP [RFC1738], HTTP [RFC2616], HTTPS [RFC2818],
   LDAP [RFC4516], or MID [RFC2392] URI.

in section 3.2.6. Directory Entry Reference.

Cheers,
Bernard


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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:13:03 -0700
From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: ietf-calsify list <ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org>
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Cc: APPS-REVIEW@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [ietf-calsify] [APPS-REVIEW] IETF Review of rfc2446bis-07
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--==========A704DCF1F713B73E2524==========
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Hi folks,
I have started to work through all of Reinhold's points from his review 
(those that pertain to iTIP). To that end I have created a spreadsheet 
checklist to track all the changes/responses to the 123 points raised. 
Attached is a PDF of the current state of this.

I would like to request that the chair's ask the IETF tools team to enable 
the wiki feature for the Calsify WG on the tools website. I would like to 
keep an up to date posting of my spreadsheet, Reinhold's original review 
and an HTML diff of -07 to -08 there so that people can review the progress 
being made (without me having to send out all the attachments via email 
each time I make more progress).

Ultimately, rather than listing all the changes made to address Reinhold's 
review in the Changes section of the draft itself, I would like to simply 
provide a pointer to the PDF on the wiki. Would that be acceptable (for a 
section of the draft that will be removed before being published as an RFC)?

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

--==========A704DCF1F713B73E2524==========
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From: Bernard Desruisseaux <bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com>
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To: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>
Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] IETF Review of rfc2446bis-07
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s/"VEVENTS"/"VEVENT" calendar components/

Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
> Am Montag, 8. September 2008 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer:
>> Here is my review, where I mention all issues / questions sequentially,
>> ordered as they appear in the draft (thus mixing errors with open questions
>> and suggestings).
> 
> I just noticed one more minor issue:
> In section "4.4.7 Add A New Series of Instances To A Recurring Event" we use 
>>> (they are both "VEVENTS")<<. As I didn't find any other instance where 
> VEVENT is pluralized (Actually, in rfc 2447bis, there is a splot where VEVENT 
> is explictly used where a plural is expected, see the bottom of p.7 of 
> rfc2447bis-07), I don't think we should do it here, either. I think it's best 
> to always stay with VEVENT in its singular form. Thus, I would change this to 
>>> (they are both a "VEVENT")<<
> 
> Cheers,
> Reinhold
> 



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From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>
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Cc: Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>, APPS-REVIEW@ietf.org
Subject: [Ietf-calsify] Review of rfc2447bis-05
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dear Calsify group, dear apps-review team, dear Alexey,

I've now also taken a look at the RFC2447bis-05 draft and found some issues 
(like invalid iCalendar syntax, etc.) and have some questions and 
suggestions. 
This time, of course, the review is much shorter than the review of 
rfc2446bis.

As the calsify list has quite a tight message size limit, I uploaded the 
review to my homepage:
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2447bis_2008-10.html
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2447bis_2008-10.pdf
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/Computing/Review_RFC2447bis_2008-10.tex

Cheers,
Reinhold

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/
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From: Reinhold Kainhofer <reinhold@kainhofer.com>
Organization: FAM, Vienna University of Technology
To: ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
Subject: Re: [Ietf-calsify] IETF Review of rfc2446bis-07
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:59:13 +0200
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Am Montag, 8. September 2008 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer:
> Here is my review, where I mention all issues / questions sequentially,
> ordered as they appear in the draft (thus mixing errors with open questions
> and suggestings).

I just noticed one more minor issue:
In section "4.4.7 Add A New Series of Instances To A Recurring Event" we use 
>>(they are both "VEVENTS")<<. As I didn't find any other instance where 
VEVENT is pluralized (Actually, in rfc 2447bis, there is a splot where VEVENT 
is explictly used where a plural is expected, see the bottom of p.7 of 
rfc2447bis-07), I don't think we should do it here, either. I think it's best 
to always stay with VEVENT in its singular form. Thus, I would change this to 
>>(they are both a "VEVENT")<<

Cheers,
Reinhold

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
 * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
 * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/

