From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk  Fri Jun  1 00:52:28 2012
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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1338537141; x=1370073141; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20<Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk> |Subject:=20Re:=20[DNSOP]=20New=20Version=20Notification =20for=0D=0A=09draft-gersch-dnsop-revdns-cidr-00.txt |Date:=20Fri,=201=20Jun=202012=2007:52:16=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20<40AE67B8-8F39-48AD-9F96-C39B06ECC574@nomi net.org.uk>|To:=20Joseph=20Gersch=20<joe.gersch@secure64. com>|CC:=20=3D?iso-8859-2?Q?Ond=3DF8ej_Sur=3DFD?=3D=20<on drej.sury@nic.cz>,=20IETF=20DNSOP=20WG=0D=0A=09<dnsop@iet f.org>|MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20q uoted-printable|Content-ID:=20<3fc7b554-9596-409d-8579-d1 049adcf7de>|In-Reply-To:=20<C9112AAD-8487-4287-B7E3-94A02 E83F6FE@secure64.com>|References:=20<20120217000918.22307 .43753.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>=0D=0A=20<2D04DB88-9570-4 DE3-A796-F4F07AF5EF74@secure64.com>=0D=0A=20<017101ccefd5 $51790560$f46b1020$@lampo@eurid.eu>=0D=0A=20<C21F43CF-9CA 9-4A40-A7CC-463C5139F362@secure64.com>=0D=0A=20<E2FDD0E1- 9C08-43C4-967E-1AE9102D817E@nic.cz>=0D=0A=20<2C012FE1-A40 D-473F-89D8-52673182A581@nominet.org.uk>=0D=0A=20<C9112AA D-8487-4287-B7E3-94A02E83F6FE@secure64.com>; bh=1DW7aZJYw0cRw429uvZqaHnsBW+wLUXuOPsVCsQaVhw=; b=BXnraqsw22R3+6w2uAb6g8ldWI1vx/7f3K0jB/FQVuUpHNXS6p+/YwoK MDYvcg0SkVRikYvVlO9s2NA7amfMpjEONCypT6MSEnUJ+paSLBsBddLJ2 7hM+aQ0MJuB5omf;
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From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>
To: Joseph Gersch <joe.gersch@secure64.com>
Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-gersch-dnsop-revdns-cidr-00.txt
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Cc: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Ond=F8ej_Sur=FD?= <ondrej.sury@nic.cz>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for	draft-gersch-dnsop-revdns-cidr-00.txt
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On 31 May 2012, at 22:51, Joseph Gersch wrote:

> Ray and Ondrej,=20
>   Dan Massey and I have been busy putting together a presentation for NAN=
OG which is in Vancouver next week.  We plan on having many discussions wit=
h operators and designers there.  After we get enough feedback, we will get=
 back to you.  I know this is later than you wanted, but we want to get goo=
d discussion first.=20

Joe,

Firstly thanks for getting back to me.

I think there is still a serious design flaw which in practise will make th=
e scheme unusable for your BGP work.

You explicitly call out the need for the CIDR hierarchy and DNS hierarchy t=
o align ("Coverage Authority") in =A73 and =A74.2 of your draft and claim t=
hat your scheme provides this, but it's easy to construct examples where th=
at's not true.

Hence my concern is that the DNS scheme you have proposed _simply doesn't w=
ork_.

IMHO, it would be premature to enter into detailed discussion with the oper=
ational community until this hierarchy problem is resolved.

kind regards,

Ray







From olaf@NLnetLabs.nl  Fri Jun  1 02:00:52 2012
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Dear Chairs,


Some friendly reminders...


On May 21, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Olaf Kolkman wrote:

> Chairs, would you like us to incorporate (some of, see comments from =
Paul H.) the suggestions in the document _now_ or after you have done =
your review?

This question has been left unanswered.


>=20
> Can you please make sure this document is at the IESG before June?=20


This question has been left unanswered too.

Some highlights from =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis/history/


2011-06-27	06	Peter Koch	IETF state changed to In WG Last =
Call from WG Document

2011-12-05	08	Peter Koch	IETF state changed to WG =
Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up from In WG Last
Call

2011-12-05	08	Peter Koch	WGLC discussion on the list did =
not raise objections


That is almost 6 month now. Granted, we have had some comments coming in =
after the WGLC ended, all of the type that would make reasonable errata. =
Besides, that is a sign that people take the effort to find and read the =
draft, to me an indication that there is a need for this document to be =
published.

Please give us an indication when this document will be submitted to the =
IESG.


--Olaf



NLnet
Labs
Olaf M. Kolkman

www.NLnetLabs.nl
olaf@NLnetLabs.nl

Science Park 400, 1098 XH Amsterdam, The Netherlands




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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>Dear =
Chairs,</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Some friendly =
reminders...</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>On May 21, =
2012, at 11:40 AM, Olaf Kolkman wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Monaco; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>Chairs, =
would you like us to incorporate (some of, see comments from Paul H.) =
the suggestions in the document _now_ or after you have done your =
review?</div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This question has =
been left unanswered.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Monaco; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; =
"><div><br></div><div>Can you please make sure this document is at the =
IESG before =
June?&nbsp;</div></span></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>This =
question has been left unanswered too.</div><div><br></div><div>Some =
highlights from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis/histo=
ry/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis/history/=
</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
2px; "><table class=3D"ietf-table" style=3D"font-size: inherit; =
border-collapse: collapse; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: =
1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-style: =
solid; border-right-style: solid; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-left-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); =
border-right-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); border-bottom-color: rgb(127, =
127, 127); border-left-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); "><tbody><tr =
class=3D"oddrow" id=3D"history-221967" style=3D"background-color: white; =
"><td class=3D"comment_date" style=3D"white-space: nowrap; =
border-right-width: 1px; border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: =
rgb(203, 203, 203); padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; =
padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: 6px; vertical-align: top; =
">2011-06-27</td><td style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; =
border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); =
padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: =
6px; vertical-align: top; ">06</td><td style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; =
border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); =
padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: =
6px; vertical-align: top; ">Peter Koch</td><td =
style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; border-right-style: solid; =
border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); padding-top: 3px; padding-right: =
6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: 6px; vertical-align: top; ">IETF =
state changed to&nbsp;<b>In WG Last Call</b>&nbsp;from WG =
Document</td></tr></tbody></table></span><div><br></div></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
2px; "><table class=3D"ietf-table" style=3D"font-size: inherit; =
border-collapse: collapse; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: =
1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-style: =
solid; border-right-style: solid; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-left-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); =
border-right-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); border-bottom-color: rgb(127, =
127, 127); border-left-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); "><tbody><tr =
class=3D"oddrow" id=3D"history-221969" style=3D"background-color: white; =
"><td class=3D"comment_date" style=3D"white-space: nowrap; =
border-right-width: 1px; border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: =
rgb(203, 203, 203); padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; =
padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: 6px; vertical-align: top; =
">2011-12-05</td><td style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; =
border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); =
padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: =
6px; vertical-align: top; ">08</td><td style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; =
border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); =
padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: =
6px; vertical-align: top; ">Peter Koch</td><td =
style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; border-right-style: solid; =
border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); padding-top: 3px; padding-right: =
6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: 6px; vertical-align: top; ">IETF =
state changed to&nbsp;<b>WG Consensus: Waiting for =
Write-Up</b>&nbsp;from In WG =
Last<br>Call</td></tr></tbody></table></span><div><br></div></div><div><sp=
an class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
2px; "><table class=3D"ietf-table" style=3D"font-size: inherit; =
border-collapse: collapse; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: =
1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-style: =
solid; border-right-style: solid; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-left-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); =
border-right-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); border-bottom-color: rgb(127, =
127, 127); border-left-color: rgb(127, 127, 127); "><tbody><tr =
class=3D"evenrow" id=3D"history-221970" style=3D"background-color: =
rgb(237, 245, 255); "><td class=3D"comment_date" style=3D"white-space: =
nowrap; border-right-width: 1px; border-right-style: solid; =
border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); padding-top: 3px; padding-right: =
6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: 6px; vertical-align: top; =
">2011-12-05</td><td style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; =
border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); =
padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: =
6px; vertical-align: top; ">08</td><td style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; =
border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); =
padding-top: 3px; padding-right: 6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: =
6px; vertical-align: top; ">Peter Koch</td><td =
style=3D"border-right-width: 1px; border-right-style: solid; =
border-right-color: rgb(203, 203, 203); padding-top: 3px; padding-right: =
6px; padding-bottom: 3px; padding-left: 6px; vertical-align: top; ">WGLC =
discussion on the list did not raise =
objections</td></tr></tbody></table></span><div><br></div></div><div><br><=
/div><div>That is almost 6 month now. Granted, we have had some comments =
coming in after the WGLC ended, all of the type that would make =
reasonable errata. Besides, that is a sign that people take the effort =
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From sm@resistor.net  Fri Jun  1 14:05:29 2012
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Cc: dnsop@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt
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Dear Internet Engineering Steering Group,
At 02:00 01-06-2012, Olaf Kolkman wrote:
>That is almost 6 month now. Granted, we have had some comments 
>coming in after the WGLC ended, all of the type that would make 
>reasonable errata. Besides, that is a sign that people take the 
>effort to find and read the draft, to me an indication that there is 
>a need for this document to be published.

Is the DNSOP WG still active?  I am asking this question because:

  (a) The WG charter lists milestones dated Sep 2007.

  (b) It has been over five months since draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11
      is waiting for Write-Up.

Regards,
-sm 


From sa.morris7@googlemail.com  Fri Jun  1 17:06:50 2012
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On 01/06/2012 22:03, SM wrote:
> Dear Internet Engineering Steering Group, At 02:00 01-06-2012,
> Olaf Kolkman wrote:
>> That is almost 6 month now. Granted, we have had some comments 
>> coming in after the WGLC ended, all of the type that would make 
>> reasonable errata. Besides, that is a sign that people take the 
>> effort to find and read the draft, to me an indication that
>> there is a need for this document to be published.
> 
> Is the DNSOP WG still active?  I am asking this question because:

Yes, the WG is still active.


> (a) The WG charter lists milestones dated Sep 2007.

Guilty as charged I'm afraid.

On behalf of the chairs, I can only apologise to the WG for neglecting
to review and update the milestones.


> (b) It has been over five months since 
> draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11 is waiting for Write-Up.

As you rightly say, progress on this this is overdue.  However things
have started to move - I undertook a nits review of the -11 version of
the draft earlier this week and the results are now with the editors.
Peter (the document shepherd) also has a few comments and will be
sending them to the editors as well as summarising them on the list.

At the last WG meeting, we also said we would progress one other draft:

draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework:
This has passed the WGLC.  The final nits review has been done and the
draft is back with the editors for corrections.  A short summary of
the review was posted to the list last month.  Once a new version has
been submitted, it will be passed to the IESG along with the write-up
(which has already been prepared).

A question outstanding - and one for which I am seeking clarification
- concerns the correct copyright notice.  The draft is based heavily on
RFC 3647, but the copyright notice for that is more restrictive than the
one on this draft.  Presumably this means additional copyright text -
but I'm not certain of the implications (if any) of the fact that
earlier versions of this draft have been published with the less
restrictive copyright notice.


So in summary, I'm afraid that the chairs have been somewhat bad at
the housekeeping and apologise to the WG for that.  However, WG is
definitely alive and drafts are being progressed.

Stephen

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Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 18:01:22 -0700
To: Stephen Morris <sa.morris7@googlemail.com>
From: SM <sm@resistor.net>
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Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework@tools.ietf.org
Subject: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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Hi Stephen,
At 17:06 01-06-2012, Stephen Morris wrote:
>Yes, the WG is still active.

Thanks for the quick reply.

>On behalf of the chairs, I can only apologise to the WG for neglecting
>to review and update the milestones.

Would it be possible to update the milestones as it is easier to get 
a sense of what work items to track?

>A question outstanding - and one for which I am seeking clarification
>- concerns the correct copyright notice.  The draft is based heavily on
>RFC 3647, but the copyright notice for that is more restrictive than the
>one on this draft.  Presumably this means additional copyright text -
>but I'm not certain of the implications (if any) of the fact that
>earlier versions of this draft have been published with the less
>restrictive copyright notice.

What follows is an informal comment.

The authors of draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 have stated that:

   "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
    provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79."

It is simply a matter of asking them an appropriate question. :-)  I 
note that the listed affiliations are Kirei AB, .SE and ICANN.

Quoting Section 1.1:

    "Even though this document is heavily inspired by the Internet X.509
     Public Key Infrastructure Certificate Policy and Certification
     Practices Framework [RFC3647], with large parts being drawn from that
     document"

I don't see any mention of that in the Acknowledgements Section of the draft.

There is a pre5378 license clause which was used in an update of a 
RFC which predates RFC 3647.  This draft is a different and unusual 
case.  BTW, it is easier to let the previous versions of the draft to expire.

Regards,
-sm  


From fredrik@kirei.se  Sat Jun  2 06:05:25 2012
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From: Fredrik Ljunggren <fredrik@kirei.se>
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To: SM <sm@resistor.net>, dnsop@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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On 2012-06-02, at 03:01, SM wrote:

> Quoting Section 1.1:
>=20
>   "Even though this document is heavily inspired by the Internet X.509
>    Public Key Infrastructure Certificate Policy and Certification
>    Practices Framework [RFC3647], with large parts being drawn from =
that
>    document"
>=20
> I don't see any mention of that in the Acknowledgements Section of the =
draft.

Thanks for pointing that out. We should add acknowledgement to the work =
of the 3647 and its predecessor 2527 to the acknowledgements section.

-- Fredrik


From fredrik@kirei.se  Sat Jun  2 06:06:49 2012
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From: Fredrik Ljunggren <fredrik@kirei.se>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07
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I've implemented all of Stephens edits, along with the edits suggested =
by Alfred H=CEnes back in april, both of which where mainly editorial =
changes.

Apart from this, Stephen has suggested a minor rewording of the second =
paragraph of the background section due to his comment below:

  To provide a means for users who rely on signed responses from the
  DNS ("relying parties") to evaluate the strength and security of the
  DNSSEC chain of trust, an entity operating a DNSSEC enabled zone may
  choose to publish a DNSSEC Practice Statement (DPS), comprising
  statements of critical security controls and procedures relevant for
  scrutinizing the trustworthiness of the system.  The DPS may also
  identify any DNSSEC Policies it supports, explaining how it meets
  their requirements.

Last, but not least, the DNSOP chairs has suggested to change the title =
of the document from "DNSSEC Policy & Practice Statement Framework" to =
"A Framework for DNSSEC Policies and DNSSEC Practice Statements", to =
better underline that a "DNSSEC Policy" and a "DNSSEC Practice =
Statement" are two different documents. The authors have agreed to this =
change, as we share the opinion that this adds to the clarity of the =
concept.

Unless I hear any objections to the above, I will post and updated (-08) =
version shortly.

- Fredrik

On 2012-05-21, at 16:52, Stephen Morris wrote:

> I've been doing a final nits review of the DPS framework document =
while
> doing the proto write-up.
>=20
> There is nothing major - mainly typos/missing commas and minor
> change of wording: these I've passed to editors directly.
>=20
> The only significant issue is the definition of "relying parties" in =
1.1
> either "users of the DNS" (at the beginning of the section) or "all
> entities relying on signed responses from the DNS" (at the end, and in
> the glossary).  This needs clarification as "relying party" is used in
> the middle of that section.
>=20
> Stephen
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


From joe.abley@icann.org  Sat Jun  2 06:49:53 2012
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From: Joe Abley <joe.abley@icann.org>
To: SM <sm@resistor.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 06:51:31 -0700
Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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On 2012-06-01, at 21:04, "SM" <sm@resistor.net> wrote:

> The authors of draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 have stated that:
>=20
>   "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
>    provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79."
>=20
> It is simply a matter of asking them an appropriate question. :-)  I=20
> note that the listed affiliations are Kirei AB, .SE and ICANN.

If I can take the liberty of anticipating the nature of the appropriate que=
stion, the answer from ICANN would be whatever best facilitates the documen=
t's timely publication.


Joe=

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Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Stephen Morris <sa.morris7@googlemail.com>, iesg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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Hi Joe,
At 06:51 02-06-2012, Joe Abley wrote:
>If I can take the liberty of anticipating the nature of the 
>appropriate question, the answer from ICANN would be whatever best 
>facilitates the document's timely publication.

Someone could take a look at information available at 
http://trustee.ietf.org/ and choose the appropriate copyright license 
for the draft.  That would facilitate the timely publication.

Regards,
-sm 


From anne-marie.eklund-lowinder@iis.se  Sat Jun  2 10:56:06 2012
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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Anne-Marie_Eklund-L=F6winder?= <anne-marie.eklund-lowinder@iis.se>
To: Joe Abley <joe.abley@icann.org>, SM <sm@resistor.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:55:57 +0200
Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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References: <20120413071133.3506.32267.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <808B7781-10EB-4CAA-8270-F643D397E745@tislabs.com> <AB71F303-3CF0-4F50-9A38-11A7CB2B3E6C@NLnetLabs.nl> <5483F4ED-8F0F-4E76-8FF2-38A4D67C3C8A@NLnetLabs.nl> <6.2.5.6.2.20120601134648.0b661a48@resistor.net> <4FC95915.1080906@googlemail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20120601172615.09aba8f8@resistor.net> <DFAD57CB-9766-456F-BD3C-FF3537C83CF4@icann.org>
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Cc: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, Stephen Morris <sa.morris7@googlemail.com>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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The same for .SE. The sooner, the better. :-) I am right now holding back p=
ublishing the revised version of the .SE DPS, since I don't want it to diff=
er in any important part from the draft, hopefully soon to be a RFC. :-)


All the best,


Anne-Marie Eklund L=F6winder
Quality & Security Manager, .SE (The Internet Infrastructure Foundation)
Direct: +46(8)-452 35 17 | Mobile: +46(73)-43 15 310 PO Box 7399,=20
SE-103 91 Stockholm, Sweden
Visitors: Ringv=E4gen 100
http://www.iis.se/en/



> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Fr=E5n: Joe Abley [mailto:joe.abley@icann.org]
> Skickat: den 2 juni 2012 15:52
> Till: SM
> Kopia: Stephen Morris; dnsop@ietf.org; iesg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-dnsop-
> dnssec-dps-framework@tools.ietf.org
> =C4mne: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D
> Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
>=20
> On 2012-06-01, at 21:04, "SM" <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
>=20
> > The authors of draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 have stated
> that:
> >
> >   "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
> >    provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79."
> >
> > It is simply a matter of asking them an appropriate question. :-)  I
> > note that the listed affiliations are Kirei AB, .SE and ICANN.
>=20
> If I can take the liberty of anticipating the nature of the appropriate
> question, the answer from ICANN would be whatever best facilitates the
> document's timely publication.
>=20
>=20
> Joe

From fredrik@kirei.se  Sun Jun  3 08:48:22 2012
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From: Fredrik Ljunggren <fredrik@kirei.se>
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To: SM <sm@resistor.net>
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Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Stephen Morris <sa.morris7@googlemail.com>, iesg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 (was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc4641bis-11.txt)
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On 2012-06-02, at 03:01, SM wrote:

> The authors of draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-07 have stated =
that:
>=20
>  "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
>   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79."
>=20
> It is simply a matter of asking them an appropriate question. :-)  I =
note that the listed affiliations are Kirei AB, .SE and ICANN.

To the best of my knowledge and as one of the authors of the document, =
the draft is submitted in full conformance with BCP 78 and BCP 79. Both =
current and previous versions of BCP 78 allows the creation of =
derivative work within the IETF standards process (which includes the =
Internet-Drafts function), unless explicitly disallowed in the notices =
contained in a contribution.

There are no such limitations in the IPR of 3647. In addition, is seems =
to me as the full copyright statement of 3647 states that some =
derivative works outside of the IETF standards process is allowed, =
provided that the same full copyright statement is included in that =
document. But since this is a work which falls within the scope of the =
IETF standards process, that clause does not seem to apply.

Everything above is my own laymans interpretation.

> Quoting Section 1.1:
>=20
>   "Even though this document is heavily inspired by the Internet X.509
>    Public Key Infrastructure Certificate Policy and Certification
>    Practices Framework [RFC3647], with large parts being drawn from =
that
>    document"
>=20
> I don't see any mention of that in the Acknowledgements Section of the =
draft.

Thanks for pointing that out, I will make sure to add the appropriate =
acknowledgements.

> There is a pre5378 license clause which was used in an update of a RFC =
which predates RFC 3647.  This draft is a different and unusual case.

Earlier licenses seems to me to have the same provisions on derivative =
work. Even if this is an unusual case, I have not yet found anything =
that contradicts the aforementioned conclusion on my part.

All the best,

-- Fredrik


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Jun  5 07:50:04 2012
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations Working=
 Group of the IETF.

	Title           : A Framework for DNSSEC Policies and DNSSEC Practice Stat=
ements
	Author(s)       : Fredrik Ljunggren
                          Anne-Marie Eklund Lowinder
                          Tomofumi Okubo
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-08.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2012-06-05

   This document presents a framework to assist writers of DNSSEC
   Policies and DNSSEC Practice Statements, such as Domain Managers and
   Zone Operators on both the top-level and secondary level, who are
   managing and operating a DNS zone with Security Extensions (DNSSEC)
   implemented.

   In particular, the framework provides a comprehensive list of topics
   that should be considered for inclusion into a DNSSEC Policy
   definition and Practice Statement.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-0=
8.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-08=
.txt

The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework/


From fredrik@kirei.se  Tue Jun  5 07:53:04 2012
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A new and hopefully final version of the dps framework draft has been =
submitted, incorporating the previously announced edits. Please review.

- Fredrik


On 2012-06-05, at 16:50, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:

>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories. This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System =
Operations Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
> 	Title           : A Framework for DNSSEC Policies and DNSSEC =
Practice Statements
> 	Author(s)       : Fredrik Ljunggren
>                          Anne-Marie Eklund Lowinder
>                          Tomofumi Okubo
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-08.txt
> 	Pages           : 28
> 	Date            : 2012-06-05
>=20
>   This document presents a framework to assist writers of DNSSEC
>   Policies and DNSSEC Practice Statements, such as Domain Managers and
>   Zone Operators on both the top-level and secondary level, who are
>   managing and operating a DNS zone with Security Extensions (DNSSEC)
>   implemented.
>=20
>   In particular, the framework provides a comprehensive list of topics
>   that should be considered for inclusion into a DNSSEC Policy
>   definition and Practice Statement.
>=20
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-=
08.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-0=
8.txt
>=20
> The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


From bortzmeyer@nic.fr  Tue Jun  5 08:03:19 2012
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To: SM <sm@resistor.net>
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On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 07:48:49AM -0700,
 SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote 
 a message of 10 lines which said:

> See RFC 4027 for application/dns and text/dns.

Thanks. They are also in the IANA registry, I don't know how I missed
them.

From gilles.massen@restena.lu  Tue Jun  5 08:28:20 2012
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-14.txt
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Coming back to this unanswered question: from my point of view the color
matching seems a bit harsh with regard to operational reality. I
certainly won't get any nightmares for non exhaustive additional
sections in response to extremely large queries.

This said, while looking at this I noticed something that leaves an
uneasy feeling: for an extremely large query, I get 2 types of responses
from the root servers.

One set of root servers fills the additional section with 2 names, and
their v4 and v6 addresses. But it's always the same two servers,
indepently of the server asked. The other set answers with a bit more
servers, but only v4 adresses, and here again, always the same list.

I was expecting (perhaps naively) that the additional section would be
filled randomly until no space is left. The current setup seems to
restrict some of the inherent redundancy of the DNS.

Any thoughts?

Gilles

On 22/5/12 17:00 , Edward Lewis wrote:
> I looked back at this and noticed I should have said "the right matrix"
> is more important.
> 
> Still, I'm a little surprised there's been no response from a comparison
> of a DNS Operations WG document to real-world measurements.
> 
> Are we okay with a document that issues criteria that only 70% of TLDs
> fall into "green?"  Are the grades overly harsh?  Should the TLDs be
> urged to work on getting to green?
> 
> At 13:55 -0400 5/10/12, Edward Lewis wrote:
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-14.txt
>>
>> For kicks I ran the included perl code against the 313 delegations
>> from the root zone (313 does not include "root" and does include the
>> 11 test TLDs).
>>
>> ...I'll leave it to the draft to explain the headings and rankings
>> below.  I did this just to measure the draft's assessments against the
>> TLD settings.  Not that the TLDs are the only audience of this draft,
>> but it's a convenient data set.
>>
>> Measured in %'ages of 313:
>>
>>            Max length domain name     ||    Average length domain name
>> Color     A-only  A+AAAA A-preferred  ||    A-only  A+AAAA A-preferred
>>                                       ||
>> Green       59%     19%    19%        ||       99%    69%    69%
>> Yellow      35%     41%    18%        ||        1%    31%    28%
>> Orange       4%     21%     9%        ||                      1%
>> Red          2%     11%    53%        ||                      2%
>>
>> The left matrix is more important (operationally).   That's about the
>> only commentary I'll add, just to head off the concern of "red"s in
>> the right matrix.
>>
>> To Paul and Akira, here's more or less what I did with the results of
>> the pl:
>>
>> looping through the names in the root zone:
>>    server_set=`dig @127.0.0.1 +short $name ns`
>>    size_estimate=`perl respsize.pl $server_set`
>>    results=`echo $size_estimate | sed "getting '()'s#$name \2 \3 \4 \6
>> \7 \8#"`
>>    echo "$results"
>> and then used a spreadsheet to do the percentages.  (Shown in case I
>> messed up something.)
>> -- 
>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>
>> Edward Lewis
>> NeuStar                    You can leave a voice message at
>> +1-571-434-5468
>>
>> 2012...time to reuse those 1984 calendars!
>> _______________________________________________
>> DNSOP mailing list
>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
> 

-- 
Fondation RESTENA
6, rue Coudenhove-Kalergi
L-1359 Luxembourg
tel: (+352) 424409
fax: (+352) 422473

From joe.abley@icann.org  Tue Jun  5 10:23:49 2012
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On 2012-06-05, at 08:28, Gilles Massen wrote:

> One set of root servers fills the additional section with 2 names, and
> their v4 and v6 addresses. But it's always the same two servers,
> indepently of the server asked. The other set answers with a bit more
> servers, but only v4 adresses, and here again, always the same list.

It might be instructive to spell out what query you tried, and what your =
results were (per letter).

Some root servers are not shy about telling the world what software they =
are running, but others prefer to obfuscate:

[krill:~]% for n in $(jot -c 13 a)    =20
for> do echo "${n}: $(dig @${n}.root-servers.net version.bind ch txt =
+short)"
for> done
a: "This space intentionally left blank"
b: "4.8.1"
c: "c-root"
d: "9.8.1-P1"
e:=20
f: "9.7.4"
g: ""
h: "NSD 3.2.10"
i: "contact info@netnod.se"
j: "This space intentionally left blank"
k: "NSD 3.2.8"
l: "NSD 3.2.8"
m: "9.7.3-P3"
[krill:~]%=20

I can confirm the version string for L is accurate. The versions shown =
above for D, F, H, K and M look plausible to me, although I can't speak =
authoritatively about what they are doing.

If you wanted to nail down the different behaviour to particular =
versions of software, the rootops are all here and will no doubt crawl =
out of the woodwork if there are questions to answer.


Joe=

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Subject: [DNSOP] Compromised-key Digest Signature(ckds) draft
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<DIV>Dear&nbsp;dnsop work group,</DIV>
<DIV>I wrote a draft for DNSSEC, and it is a new method to deal with the=20
emergency rollover for the compromised key.</DIV>
<DIV>the draft is followed:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haikuo-ckds/?include_text=
=3D1">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haikuo-ckds/?include_text=3D1=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I hope it is useful for DNSSEC.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Jun  5 21:51:53 2012
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From: Paul Wouters <paul@cypherpunks.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Compromised-key Digest Signature(ckds) draft
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On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, zhanghaikuo wrote:

> Dear dnsop work group,
> I wrote a draft for DNSSEC, and it is a new method to deal with the emergency rollover for the compromised key.
> the draft is followed:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haikuo-ckds/?include_text=1

First, I don't think a draft should grab an IANA DNS type code like
you did. Instead of writing "53" you should write "[TBD]" which means
"to be decided"

Now on to the proposal,

The issue I see is that a CKDS needs to be explicitely queried for. Do
I have to re-query this when the negative cache  ttl runs out? I cannot
only query it when I want to lookup DS records, or I would miss this
"revocation" of the key. If I hae a DS record that is cached for 1day
or 1week, when would I query for CKDS?

I understand you do not want to check the revoke bit in the DNSKEY,
because if compromised you could be given that key without the revoke
bit. But I'm still not sure when a resolver should look for a CKDS
record. And defining a null-CKDS would run into the exact same caching
problem as the actual DS record does.

Could you explain what would trigger a resolver to check for a CKDS
record?

Paul

From zhanghaikuo@cnnic.cn  Wed Jun  6 00:16:35 2012
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To: "Paul Wouters" <paul@cypherpunks.ca>
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From gilles.massen@restena.lu  Wed Jun  6 02:56:14 2012
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From: Gilles Massen <gilles.massen@restena.lu>
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Agreed, here are the queries:

q=`jot -s . -b 123456789 25`.lu
for n in $(jot -c 13 a); do dig @${n}.root-servers.net $q +norec
+noquestion +noanswer +noauth +nocomment +nostat; done

There are 2 groups of additional sections:
A, C, E, I, J: 2 names, with their v4+v6 addresses
B, D, E, G, H, K, L, M: 4 names, only v4 addresses

What stroke me was 2 things:
- both groups do not change the answers on subsequent queries. So for
the first group, if the 2 servers are down, your done.
- the second group doesn't provide any v6 addresses at all.

Now I don't want to pick on any implementation, rather get an idea of
the reasoning behind the behaviour... (I do agree that the query is a
bit extreme). And if operators think that this might lead to problems.

Gilles

On 5/6/12 19:23 , Joe Abley wrote:
> 
> On 2012-06-05, at 08:28, Gilles Massen wrote:
> 
>> One set of root servers fills the additional section with 2 names, and
>> their v4 and v6 addresses. But it's always the same two servers,
>> indepently of the server asked. The other set answers with a bit more
>> servers, but only v4 adresses, and here again, always the same list.
> 
> It might be instructive to spell out what query you tried, and what your results were (per letter).
> 
> Some root servers are not shy about telling the world what software they are running, but others prefer to obfuscate:
> 
> [krill:~]% for n in $(jot -c 13 a)     
> for> do echo "${n}: $(dig @${n}.root-servers.net version.bind ch txt +short)"
> for> done
> a: "This space intentionally left blank"
> b: "4.8.1"
> c: "c-root"
> d: "9.8.1-P1"
> e: 
> f: "9.7.4"
> g: ""
> h: "NSD 3.2.10"
> i: "contact info@netnod.se"
> j: "This space intentionally left blank"
> k: "NSD 3.2.8"
> l: "NSD 3.2.8"
> m: "9.7.3-P3"
> [krill:~]% 
> 
> I can confirm the version string for L is accurate. The versions shown above for D, F, H, K and M look plausible to me, although I can't speak authoritatively about what they are doing.
> 
> If you wanted to nail down the different behaviour to particular versions of software, the rootops are all here and will no doubt crawl out of the woodwork if there are questions to answer.
> 
> 
> Joe=


-- 
Fondation RESTENA
6, rue Coudenhove-Kalergi
L-1359 Luxembourg
tel: (+352) 424409
fax: (+352) 422473

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On 06/06/2012 11:56, Gilles Massen wrote:

> There are 2 groups of additional sections:
> A, C, E, I, J: 2 names, with their v4+v6 addresses
> B, D, E, G, H, K, L, M: 4 names, only v4 addresses
> 
> Now I don't want to pick on any implementation, rather get an idea of
> the reasoning behind the behaviour... (I do agree that the query is a
> bit extreme). And if operators think that this might lead to problems.

Hi Gilles,

We operate K-root with NSD, which prefers A glue over AAAA glue. If the
client is not ENDS0-capable, then NSD will first fill the additional
section with as much A glue as it can. This can sometimes result in the
client not getting any AAAA glue.

I believe the reasoning for this decision is that if a client isn't
ENDS0-capable, then it's a reasonable assumption that it is also not
IPv6-capable, so it's better to give it as much A glue as possible.

Regards,

Anand Buddhdev
RIPE NCC

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Dear Gilles,

I lost the point related to the draft, however, what I assumed was
the following:
    DNS clients (or client side of recursive servers) which are
    able to use IPv6 glue records effectively likely support EDNS0.
So in M-Root, I gave priority IPv4 glue records over IPv6 glue records.
Please add "+bufsize=1280" to your dig commend to get a different result.

-- Akira Kato

From: Gilles Massen <gilles.massen@restena.lu>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-14.txt
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:56:10 +0200

> Agreed, here are the queries:
> 
> q=`jot -s . -b 123456789 25`.lu
> for n in $(jot -c 13 a); do dig @${n}.root-servers.net $q +norec
> +noquestion +noanswer +noauth +nocomment +nostat; done
> 
> There are 2 groups of additional sections:
> A, C, E, I, J: 2 names, with their v4+v6 addresses
> B, D, E, G, H, K, L, M: 4 names, only v4 addresses
> 
> What stroke me was 2 things:
> - both groups do not change the answers on subsequent queries. So for
> the first group, if the 2 servers are down, your done.
> - the second group doesn't provide any v6 addresses at all.
> 
> Now I don't want to pick on any implementation, rather get an idea of
> the reasoning behind the behaviour... (I do agree that the query is a
> bit extreme). And if operators think that this might lead to problems.
> 
> Gilles
> 
> On 5/6/12 19:23 , Joe Abley wrote:
>> 
>> On 2012-06-05, at 08:28, Gilles Massen wrote:
>> 
>>> One set of root servers fills the additional section with 2 names, and
>>> their v4 and v6 addresses. But it's always the same two servers,
>>> indepently of the server asked. The other set answers with a bit more
>>> servers, but only v4 adresses, and here again, always the same list.
>> 
>> It might be instructive to spell out what query you tried, and what your results were (per letter).
>> 
>> Some root servers are not shy about telling the world what software they are running, but others prefer to obfuscate:
>> 
>> [krill:~]% for n in $(jot -c 13 a)     
>> for> do echo "${n}: $(dig @${n}.root-servers.net version.bind ch txt +short)"
>> for> done
>> a: "This space intentionally left blank"
>> b: "4.8.1"
>> c: "c-root"
>> d: "9.8.1-P1"
>> e: 
>> f: "9.7.4"
>> g: ""
>> h: "NSD 3.2.10"
>> i: "contact info@netnod.se"
>> j: "This space intentionally left blank"
>> k: "NSD 3.2.8"
>> l: "NSD 3.2.8"
>> m: "9.7.3-P3"
>> [krill:~]% 
>> 
>> I can confirm the version string for L is accurate. The versions shown above for D, F, H, K and M look plausible to me, although I can't speak authoritatively about what they are doing.
>> 
>> If you wanted to nail down the different behaviour to particular versions of software, the rootops are all here and will no doubt crawl out of the woodwork if there are questions to answer.
>> 
>> 
>> Joe=
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fondation RESTENA
> 6, rue Coudenhove-Kalergi
> L-1359 Luxembourg
> tel: (+352) 424409
> fax: (+352) 422473
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

From marka@isc.org  Wed Jun  6 05:49:10 2012
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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <20120509222503.12175.33951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <a06240804cbd1ad07aef9@[10.31.203.234]> <a06240800cbe159bfb6e8@[10.31.200.143]> <4FCE2590.10301@restena.lu> <681FD92D-1818-4FFE-9112-070C9520B65A@icann.org> <4FCF293A.7070208@restena.lu>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-14.txt
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In message <4FCF293A.7070208@restena.lu>, Gilles Massen writes:
> Agreed, here are the queries:
> 
> q=`jot -s . -b 123456789 25`.lu
> for n in $(jot -c 13 a); do dig @${n}.root-servers.net $q +norec
> +noquestion +noanswer +noauth +nocomment +nostat; done
> 
> There are 2 groups of additional sections:
> A, C, E, I, J: 2 names, with their v4+v6 addresses
> B, D, E, G, H, K, L, M: 4 names, only v4 addresses
> 
> What stroke me was 2 things:
> - both groups do not change the answers on subsequent queries. So for
> the first group, if the 2 servers are down, your done.
> - the second group doesn't provide any v6 addresses at all.
> 
> Now I don't want to pick on any implementation, rather get an idea of
> the reasoning behind the behaviour... (I do agree that the query is a
> bit extreme). And if operators think that this might lead to problems.
> 
> Gilles

A properly functioning resolver will request the missing glue from
the root servers and named at least will return it in the additional
section or set TC=1.  Glue isn't supposed to be truncated according
to RFC 103[45] as it is not additional data.  It is part of the
referral and should cause TC=1 to be set if it won't fit.

> On 5/6/12 19:23 , Joe Abley wrote:
> > 
> > On 2012-06-05, at 08:28, Gilles Massen wrote:
> > 
> >> One set of root servers fills the additional section with 2 names, and
> >> their v4 and v6 addresses. But it's always the same two servers,
> >> indepently of the server asked. The other set answers with a bit more
> >> servers, but only v4 adresses, and here again, always the same list.
> > 
> > It might be instructive to spell out what query you tried, and what your results were (per letter).
> > 
> > Some root servers are not shy about telling the world what software they are running, but others prefer to obfuscate:
> > 
> > [krill:~]% for n in $(jot -c 13 a)     
> > for> do echo "${n}: $(dig @${n}.root-servers.net version.bind ch txt +short)"
> > for> done
> > a: "This space intentionally left blank"
> > b: "4.8.1"
> > c: "c-root"
> > d: "9.8.1-P1"
> > e: 
> > f: "9.7.4"
> > g: ""
> > h: "NSD 3.2.10"
> > i: "contact info@netnod.se"
> > j: "This space intentionally left blank"
> > k: "NSD 3.2.8"
> > l: "NSD 3.2.8"
> > m: "9.7.3-P3"
> > [krill:~]% 
> > 
> > I can confirm the version string for L is accurate. The versions shown above for D, F, H, K and M look plausible to me, altho
> ugh I can't speak authoritatively about what they are doing.
> > 
> > If you wanted to nail down the different behaviour to particular versions of software, the rootops are all here and will no d
> oubt crawl out of the woodwork if there are questions to answer.
> > 
> > 
> > Joe=
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fondation RESTENA
> 6, rue Coudenhove-Kalergi
> L-1359 Luxembourg
> tel: (+352) 424409
> fax: (+352) 422473
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-14.txt
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On 6/6/2012 12:48 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
> ...
>
> A properly functioning resolver will request the missing glue from
> the root servers and named at least will return it in the additional
> section or set TC=1.  Glue isn't supposed to be truncated according
> to RFC 103[45] as it is not additional data.  It is part of the
> referral and should cause TC=1 to be set if it won't fit.

terminologically we've diluted the term "dns glue" so that at this point
in history that term could be used by some speakers to refer to the
A/AAAA RR's that are auto-added in the additional data section for
things like MX or SRV.

in respsize we try to distinguish this with phrases like "soft
truncation" and "hard truncation". so while i agree with marka's
characterization, his wording above requires that the word "glue" be
considered to refer only to the A/AAAA RR's added to the additional data
section when the response is a referral. since that use of this term is
now non-universal, i think it's necessary to describe it using less
ambiguous terminology.

paul

From warren@kumari.net  Tue Jun 12 07:40:16 2012
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Hi there all,

So, back in (AFAIR) Taipei I proposed making AS112 instances simply be =
authoritative for *everything*, and then simply delegating and =
undelegating things to it as appropriate (this would make things much =
simpler as there would be very little coordination needed). At the time =
I realized that this would require synthesizing answers (always a bit of =
a controversial topic), but it turns out that there are a number of =
other things that may be equally contentious, such as (thanks to Joe for =
this partial list):

- assignment of new address space to separate omniscient and existing =
AS112 nodes
- v6 transport for omniscient AS112 servers
- naming the omniscient servers under as112.net
- reduced focus on the reverse tree (we could delegate anything we liked =
to the omniscient servers)
- unusual NXDOMAIN responses (the included SOA will be for a fake root =
zone, not the enclosing zone)
There are probably a bunch of other "interesting" implications...

So, do any of these things sound like topics that might interest you? A =
good chance to get annoyed / irritated?

If so, here is the draft: =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
If not, well, feel free to say that too :-P

W

P.S: This is already being (slightly) discussed on the AS112 ops list, =
but having all of the discussions (hint hint) in one place would be =
good. Oh, I'll be asking for consideration as a WG doc soon...

--
Consider orang-utans.
In all the worlds graced by their presence, it is suspected that they =
can talk but choose not to do so in case humans put them to work, =
possibly in the television industry. In fact they can talk. It's just =
that they talk in Orang-utan. Humans are only capable of listening in =
Bewilderment.
-- Terry Practhett



From nweaver@icsi.berkeley.edu  Tue Jun 12 07:58:33 2012
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On Jun 12, 2012, at 7:40 AM, Warren Kumari wrote:

> Hi there all,
>=20
> So, back in (AFAIR) Taipei I proposed making AS112 instances simply be =
authoritative for *everything*, and then simply delegating and =
undelegating things to it as appropriate (this would make things much =
simpler as there would be very little coordination needed). At the time =
I realized that this would require synthesizing answers (always a bit of =
a controversial topic), but it turns out that there are a number of =
other things that may be equally contentious, such as (thanks to Joe for =
this partial list):

To be honest, it seems like almost a no-brainer good idea to me.  And =
whats wrong about synthesizing answers?

The only question I have is DNSSEC.  I take it since the model is this =
is all bogus traffic, just have an NSEC above it saying "No DNSSEC =
information", but I just want to be sure that doesn't change.



Stupid question on the SOA record however: why not dynamically generate =
an exact match SOA? =20


So if the query is, say

121.14.34.10.in-addr.arpa.     IN      PTR

Instead of returning


10.in-addr.arpa.        300     IN      SOA     prisoner.iana.org. =
hostmaster.root-servers.org. 2002040800 1800 900 604800 604800
(current)

or

.        		300     IN      SOA     a.root-servers.net. =
nstld.verisign-grs.com. 2012061200 1800 900 604800 86400
(omniscient)


Why not return

121.14.34.10.in-addr.arpa.	300     IN      SOA     =
prisoner.iana.org. hostmaster.root-servers.org. 2002040800 1800 900 =
604800 604800

as the SOA?=

From joe.abley@icann.org  Tue Jun 12 08:17:47 2012
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up -	draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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Hi Nicholas,

On 2012-06-12, at 10:58, Nicholas Weaver wrote:

> On Jun 12, 2012, at 7:40 AM, Warren Kumari wrote:
>=20
>> So, back in (AFAIR) Taipei I proposed making AS112 instances simply =
be authoritative for *everything*, and then simply delegating and =
undelegating things to it as appropriate (this would make things much =
simpler as there would be very little coordination needed). At the time =
I realized that this would require synthesizing answers (always a bit of =
a controversial topic), but it turns out that there are a number of =
other things that may be equally contentious, such as (thanks to Joe for =
this partial list):
>=20
> To be honest, it seems like almost a no-brainer good idea to me.  And =
whats wrong about synthesizing answers?

Actually, from the perspective of the omniscient AS112 server there's no =
real answer synthesis; the AS112 servers just serve an empty, unsigned =
namespace in which nothing exists apart from required zone scaffolding.

> The only question I have is DNSSEC.  I take it since the model is this =
is all bogus traffic, just have an NSEC above it saying "No DNSSEC =
information", but I just want to be sure that doesn't change.

The only reason a resolver would normally send a query to an AS112 =
server (current, or omniscient) is if they followed a delegation there.

Since these are all junk domains of no global significance, it's hard to =
see how they could be signed. The expectation is (as currently) that =
they would not be.

A resolver would hence be receiving an unsigned name error (no NSEC RRs =
in the response) for a name that is verifiably insecure (due to the lack =
of a corresponding RRSet in the parent zone). The only potential wrinkle =
is the SOA record returned with the name error.

I can't think of a reason why a resolver would be upset to receive a =
name error from an AS112 server where the included (enclosing, root) SOA =
record attached is unsigned, but perhaps there are corner cases.

> Stupid question on the SOA record however: why not dynamically =
generate an exact match SOA? =20
>=20
>=20
> So if the query is, say
>=20
> 121.14.34.10.in-addr.arpa.     IN      PTR
>=20
> Instead of returning
>=20
>=20
> 10.in-addr.arpa.        300     IN      SOA     prisoner.iana.org. =
hostmaster.root-servers.org. 2002040800 1800 900 604800 604800
> (current)
>=20
> or
>=20
> .        		300     IN      SOA     a.root-servers.net. =
nstld.verisign-grs.com. 2012061200 1800 900 604800 86400
> (omniscient)
>=20
>=20
> Why not return
>=20
> 121.14.34.10.in-addr.arpa.	300     IN      SOA     =
prisoner.iana.org. hostmaster.root-servers.org. 2002040800 1800 900 =
604800 604800
>=20
> as the SOA?

That would involve custom software. At present, anybody can run an AS112 =
server using whatever choice of platform and DNS code they feel like. =
Requiring custom code for an AS112 server and expecting it to be =
maintained on multiple platforms seems unlikely, but no doubt it could =
be done.


Joe=

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up -	draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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On Jun 12, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Joe Abley wrote:

>> 121.14.34.10.in-addr.arpa.	300     IN      SOA     =
prisoner.iana.org. hostmaster.root-servers.org. 2002040800 1800 900 =
604800 604800
>>=20
>> as the SOA?
>=20
> That would involve custom software. At present, anybody can run an =
AS112 server using whatever choice of platform and DNS code they feel =
like. Requiring custom code for an AS112 server and expecting it to be =
maintained on multiple platforms seems unlikely, but no doubt it could =
be done.

OTOH, it eliminates all worries about the SOA being misinterpreted, and =
really, this would be be remarkably small:

EG, I know I can code this up in prototype form in my (hackish) Python =
DNS library in about an hour, and the total codebase would be on the =
order of 600 total LOC, including the DNS library.

So synthesizing an exact-match SOA should at least be considered, since =
it addresses the only interoperability concern I see with that of an =
overly-broad SOA record.


From fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk  Tue Jun 12 09:11:01 2012
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From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up	- draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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Joe Abley <joe.abley@icann.org> wrote:
>
> Since these are all junk domains of no global significance, it's hard to
> see how they could be signed. The expectation is (as currently) that
> they would not be.

And rightly so.

Since it is normal (especially for the RFC1918 zones) for sites to have
local versions of the zones, it is much easier operationally if the zones
are not signed. If they are signed then any site that overrides them would
have to distribute trust anchors to all validators, so that they are able
to resolve the local names without rejecting them as bogus. If the AS112
zones are not signed then distributing trust anchors for local versions is
optional, depending on whether the site wants to bother validating them.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Forties: Northwest 5 or 6, occasionally 4 later. Moderate or rough. Showers.
Good.

From cet1@hermes.cam.ac.uk  Tue Jun 12 10:59:25 2012
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On Jun 12 2012, Tony Finch wrote:

>Joe Abley <joe.abley@icann.org> wrote:
>>
>> Since these are all junk domains of no global significance, it's hard to
>> see how they could be signed. The expectation is (as currently) that
>> they would not be.
>
>And rightly so.
>
>Since it is normal (especially for the RFC1918 zones) for sites to have
>local versions of the zones, it is much easier operationally if the zones
>are not signed. If they are signed then any site that overrides them would
>have to distribute trust anchors to all validators, so that they are able
>to resolve the local names without rejecting them as bogus. If the AS112
>zones are not signed then distributing trust anchors for local versions is
>optional, depending on whether the site wants to bother validating them.

See also RFC 6303, section 7, paragraph 2:

* As DNSSEC is deployed within the IN-ADDR.ARPA and IP6.ARPA
* namespaces, the zones listed above will need to be delegated as
* insecure delegations, or be within insecure zones.  This will allow
* DNSSEC validation to succeed for queries in these spaces despite not
* being answered from the delegated servers.

-- 
Chris Thompson               University of Cambridge Computing Service,
Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk    New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH,
Phone: +44 1223 334715       United Kingdom.

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Subject: [DNSOP] Vancouver WG Meeting - Request for Agenda Items
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Colleagues

The chairs have requested one-hour slot for a WG meeting at IETF-84 in
Vancouver next month and are now asking for agenda items.

Topics should ideally have been the subject of promising discussion on
the WG list, so if you have any drafts you are thinking of submitting
and would like discussed at the meeting, can you please get them in
and announce them to the list as soon as possible.

Although the draft WG agendas are not due until 18 July, the final
IETF agenda will be published on 6 July.  We would therefore like
suggestions for agenda items by end 4 July the latest: if there is no
interest in a meeting, we will cancel the meeting request.


Stephen & Peter

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Subject: [DNSOP] Publication request: draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-08
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Ron

This is a publication request for:

draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-08.txt

The completed standard write-up template is appended.

Regards,

Stephen

===============================================================
PROTO write-up for draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework-08.txt
===============================================================

> (1) What type of RFC is being requested (BCP, Proposed Standard, 
> Internet Standard, Informational, Experimental, or Historic)?  Why 
> is this the proper type of RFC?  Is this type of RFC indicated in 
> the title page header?

This document is being proposed as an Informational RFC as it provides
a list of suggestions that zone operators may choose into include in
their DNSSEC Policy and/or DNSSEC Practice statement.

The type of RFC is stated in the document header.


> (2) The IESG approval announcement includes a Document Announcement
> Write-Up. Please provide such a Document Announcement Write-Up.
> Recent examples can be found in the "Action" announcements for
> approved documents. The approval announcement contains the
> following sections:
> 
> Technical Summary
> 
> Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract and/or 
> introduction of the document. If not, this may be an indication 
> that there are deficiencies in the abstract or introduction.

This document presents a framework to assist writers of DNSSEC
Policies and DNSSEC Practice Statements, such as Domain Managers and
Zone Operators on both the top-level and secondary level, who are
managing and operating a DNS zone with Security Extensions (DNSSEC)
implemented.

In particular, the framework provides a comprehensive list of topics
that should be considered for inclusion into a DNSSEC Policy
definition and Practice Statement.

> Working Group Summary
> 
> Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting? For
> example, was there controversy about particular points or were
> there decisions where the consensus was particularly rough?

No.  The discussions were relatively low-key.

> Document Quality
> 
> Are there existing implementations of the protocol? Have a 
> significant number of vendors indicated their plan to implement
> the specification? Are there any reviewers that merit special
> mention as having done a thorough review, e.g., one that resulted
> in important changes or a conclusion that the document had no 
> substantive issues? If there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other 
> expert review, what was its course (briefly)? In the case of a 
> Media Type review, on what date was the request posted?

To assess the applicability and usefulness of the document, a survey
about DNSSEC policy and practice statements was conducted by the authors
amongst members of CENTR (Council of European National  Top Level Domain
Registries). Among the questions were some asking whether they had heard
about draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-dps-framework (then at version -03).

Of the 19 respondents, 17 had heard about the draft and 13 had used it
as a check list of DNSSEC readiness and/or an outline to create such a
document.

> Personnel
> 
> Who is the Document Shepherd? Who is the Responsible Area 
> Director?

Stephen Morris is the document shepherd.
Ron Bonica is the responsible Area Director.


> (3) Briefly describe the review of this document that was
> performed by the Document Shepherd.  If this version of the
> document is not ready for publication, please explain why the
> document is being forwarded to the IESG.

The content of the document has been reviewed a number of times by the
document shepherd during its development.


> (4) Does the document Shepherd have any concerns about the depth or
> breadth of the reviews that have been performed?

No.

> (5) Do portions of the document need review from a particular or 
> from broader perspective, e.g., security, operational complexity, 
> AAA, DNS, DHCP, XML, or internationalization? If so, describe the 
> review that took place.

No


> (6) Describe any specific concerns or issues that the Document 
> Shepherd has with this document that the Responsible Area Director 
> and/or the IESG should be aware of? For example, perhaps he or she 
> is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or has 
> concerns whether there really is a need for it. In any event, if 
> the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated that it still 
> wishes to advance the document, detail those concerns here.

There was a concern about a possible copyright issue, but only in
respect to a pre-RFC5378 RFC.  Parts of RFC 3647 have been used in the
draft, so the authors have contacted the authors of RFC 3647 requesting
permission to use text from it.  All who have replied (four out of five)
have given that permission.


> (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR 
> disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of 
> BCP 78 and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why.

All authors have confirmed that there are no IPR issues.


> (8) Has an IPR disclosure been filed that references this document?
> If so, summarize any WG discussion and conclusion regarding the IPR
> disclosures.

N/A


> (9) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it 
> represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others 
> being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with 
> it?

The discussions took place between a limited number of individuals, with
seven people at WGLC formally supporting the document and believing it
should proceed.


> (10) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
> discontent? If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in
> separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director. (It 
> should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is 
> publicly available.)

No.


> (11) Identify any ID nits the Document Shepherd has found in this 
> document. (See http://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ and the 
> Internet-Drafts Checklist). Boilerplate checks are not enough;
> this check needs to be thorough.

No nits have been found in the document.


> (12) Describe how the document meets any required formal review 
> criteria, such as the MIB Doctor, media type, and URI type 
> reviews.

N/A


> (13) Have all references within this document been identified as 
> either normative or informative?

Yes.


> (14) Are there normative references to documents that are not
> ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? If
> such normative references exist, what is the plan for their
> completion?

No.


> (15) Are there downward normative references references (see RFC 
> 3967)? If so, list these downward references to support the Area 
> Director in the Last Call procedure.

No.


> (16) Will publication of this document change the status of any 
> existing RFCs? Are those RFCs listed on the title page header, 
> listed in the abstract, and discussed in the introduction? If the 
> RFCs are not listed in the Abstract and Introduction, explain why, 
> and point to the part of the document where the relationship of 
> this document to the other RFCs is discussed. If this information 
> is not in the document, explain why the WG considers it 
> unnecessary.

No.


> (17) Describe the Document Shepherd's review of the IANA 
> considerations section, especially with regard to its consistency 
> with the body of the document. Confirm that all protocol
> extensions that the document makes are associated with the
> appropriate reservations in IANA registries. Confirm that any
> referenced IANA registries have been clearly identified. Confirm
> that newly created IANA registries include a detailed specification
> of the initial contents for the registry, that allocations
> procedures for future registrations are defined, and a reasonable
> name for the new registry has been suggested (see RFC 5226).

N/A - no IANA actions are required.


> (18) List any new IANA registries that require Expert Review for 
> future allocations. Provide any public guidance that the IESG
> would find useful in selecting the IANA Experts for these new 
> registries.

N/A


> (19) Describe reviews and automated checks performed by the 
> Document Shepherd to validate sections of the document written in
> a formal language, such as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, 
> etc.

N/A

From jabley@hopcount.ca  Wed Jun 27 11:15:39 2012
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up - draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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Hi all,

The only suggestion I have heard relating to this draft is that if we =
supplied custom software to synthesise answers we could avoid the =
overly-broad SOA RR returned with the NXDOMAIN.

(My personal opinion is that this leads us down a path of needing to =
develop, publish and support particular software for AS112 servers, =
presumably on every platform that anybody might imagine using to run an =
AS112 server, and that this is a non-starter if for no better reason =
that there is no clear "we", here.)

Apart from that nothing much, which means one or more of (a) I missed =
some comments, (b) nobody cares, or (c) the draft is perfect as-is, in =
decreasing order of probability.

Another specific question, then: should the working group adopt this =
document? Possible fodder for answers, PROVIDED AS-IS WITHOUT ANY =
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES:

 - everybody should just follow RFC 6303, if they did the AS112 project =
would be superfluous
 - apparently not everybody follows RFC 6303, e.g. =
<http://dns.icann.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?plot=3Dbynode&server=3Das112>=

 - we do need some mechanism to delegate (e.g.) zones under IP6.ARPA =
corresponding to the various v6 analogues of 1918
 - AS112 servers were previously specified in a document which was a =
product of this wg, so subsequent guidance should properly do likewise
 - this idea should properly be reviewed by this working group if it is =
to proceed at all
 - it would be just as good for this document to proceed as an =
individual submission, since it will see dns directorate review anyway =
and hence all bases will be covered
 - this wg already has enough trouble processing the documents it has, =
we don't need more
 - this is a bad idea, we should just let it die

Adopt this doc?


Joe

On 2012-06-12, at 10:40, Warren Kumari wrote:

> Hi there all,
>=20
> So, back in (AFAIR) Taipei I proposed making AS112 instances simply be =
authoritative for *everything*, and then simply delegating and =
undelegating things to it as appropriate (this would make things much =
simpler as there would be very little coordination needed). At the time =
I realized that this would require synthesizing answers (always a bit of =
a controversial topic), but it turns out that there are a number of =
other things that may be equally contentious, such as (thanks to Joe for =
this partial list):
>=20
> - assignment of new address space to separate omniscient and existing =
AS112 nodes
> - v6 transport for omniscient AS112 servers
> - naming the omniscient servers under as112.net
> - reduced focus on the reverse tree (we could delegate anything we =
liked to the omniscient servers)
> - unusual NXDOMAIN responses (the included SOA will be for a fake root =
zone, not the enclosing zone)
> There are probably a bunch of other "interesting" implications...
>=20
> So, do any of these things sound like topics that might interest you? =
A good chance to get annoyed / irritated?
>=20
> If so, here is the draft: =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
> If not, well, feel free to say that too :-P
>=20
> W
>=20
> P.S: This is already being (slightly) discussed on the AS112 ops list, =
but having all of the discussions (hint hint) in one place would be =
good. Oh, I'll be asking for consideration as a WG doc soon...
>=20
> --
> Consider orang-utans.
> In all the worlds graced by their presence, it is suspected that they =
can talk but choose not to do so in case humans put them to work, =
possibly in the television industry. In fact they can talk. It's just =
that they talk in Orang-utan. Humans are only capable of listening in =
Bewilderment.
> -- Terry Practhett
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>=20


From paul@redbarn.org  Wed Jun 27 11:25:03 2012
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On 6/27/2012 6:15 PM, Joe Abley wrote:
> ...
> Adopt this doc?

yes please.


From nweaver@icsi.berkeley.edu  Wed Jun 27 11:37:33 2012
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up - draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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On Jun 27, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Joe Abley wrote:

> Hi all,
>=20
> The only suggestion I have heard relating to this draft is that if we =
supplied custom software to synthesise answers we could avoid the =
overly-broad SOA RR returned with the NXDOMAIN.

> (My personal opinion is that this leads us down a path of needing to =
develop, publish and support particular software for AS112 servers, =
presumably on every platform that anybody might imagine using to run an =
AS112 server, and that this is a non-starter if for no better reason =
that there is no clear "we", here.)

Especially since the indication is that the overly broad SOA isn't =
likely to be a problem.  So as thats the only suggestion I had....

> Adopt this doc?

Yes.



From wmaton@ryouko.imsb.nrc.ca  Wed Jun 27 11:46:09 2012
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From: "William F. Maton Sotomayor" <wmaton@ryouko.imsb.nrc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up - draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2012, Joe Abley wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The only suggestion I have heard relating to this draft is that if we supplied custom software to synthesise answers we could avoid the overly-broad SOA RR returned with the NXDOMAIN.
>
> (My personal opinion is that this leads us down a path of needing to develop, publish and support particular software for AS112 servers, presumably on every platform that anybody might imagine using to run an AS112 server, and that this is a non-starter if for no better reason that there is no clear "we", here.)

Nor do I want to comteplate custom-built software if it can be helped.

[]
> Adopt this doc?

Yes, but biased yes.

Or, I can resubmit the IPv6 counterpart to my draft as a prelude to a 
stream of such docs to fill-up DNSOP's agenda (or IETF's in general) for 
the forseeable future (years) and enumerate countless junk.

Maybe our draft is better after all.

wfms

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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:41:27 -0700
To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up - draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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Hi Joe,
At 11:15 27-06-2012, Joe Abley wrote:
>  - it would be just as good for this document to proceed as an 
> individual submission, since it will see dns directorate review 
> anyway and hence all bases will be covered

That's not a good idea.

>  - this wg already has enough trouble processing the documents it 
> has, we don't need more

Adopt the draft if people commit to review it.

There is nothing the WG chairs can do if a working group is 
lazy.  The authors can always encourage non-regular participants to 
review the draft.  I don't see any reason why you cannot turn this 
draft into a RFC number.

Regards,
-sm 


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] A good chance to get all riled up - draft-wkumari-dnsop-omniscient-as112-00
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In message <6FE949C2-18F3-432D-AB75-F66E71570CDF@hopcount.ca>, Joe Abley writes
:
> Hi all,
> 
> The only suggestion I have heard relating to this draft is that if we supplie
> d custom software to synthesise answers we could avoid the overly-broad SOA R
> R returned with the NXDOMAIN.
> 
> (My personal opinion is that this leads us down a path of needing to develop,
>  publish and support particular software for AS112 servers, presumably on eve
> ry platform that anybody might imagine using to run an AS112 server, and that
>  this is a non-starter if for no better reason that there is no clear "we", h
> ere.)
> 
> Apart from that nothing much, which means one or more of (a) I missed some co
> mments, (b) nobody cares, or (c) the draft is perfect as-is, in decreasing or
> der of probability.
> 
> Another specific question, then: should the working group adopt this document
> ? Possible fodder for answers, PROVIDED AS-IS WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED 
> WARRANTIES:
> 
>  - everybody should just follow RFC 6303, if they did the AS112 project would
>  be superfluous
>  - apparently not everybody follows RFC 6303, e.g. <http://dns.icann.org/cgi-
> bin/dsc-grapher.pl?plot=bynode&server=as112>

RFC 6303 was published less than a year ago.  There really hasn't
been time to see much RFC 6303 deployment yet to measure its impact.
Now if we had data going back several years available to look at
we might even see if the load is going up, down or staying steady.

If you look at the classification graph[1] just talking to a single
organisation will kill a lot of the traffic.  8.0.0.0 is a single
organisation yet it is the third largest /8.

[1] http://dns.icann.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?binsize=60&window=2592000&plot=client_subnet2_accum&server=as112

I personally think a vendor education campain would be more productive.
We can't do much about already deployed servers but we can make
sure the next major release supports RFC 6303 by default.

>  - we do need some mechanism to delegate (e.g.) zones under IP6.ARPA correspo
> nding to the various v6 analogues of 1918

Do we have data that says we need to?  Remember RFC 6303 style
support for ULA was permitted a long time ago.  ISC added it to
named in 9.4.0.  Full RFC 6303 support, to cover the RFC 1918
reverses, was only added in 9.9.0 the first major release after RFC
6303 was published.

>  - AS112 servers were previously specified in a document which was a product 
> of this wg, so subsequent guidance should properly do likewise
>  - this idea should properly be reviewed by this working group if it is to pr
> oceed at all
>  - it would be just as good for this document to proceed as an individual sub
> mission, since it will see dns directorate review anyway and hence all bases 
> will be covered
>  - this wg already has enough trouble processing the documents it has, we don
> 't need more
>  - this is a bad idea, we should just let it die
> 
> Adopt this doc?
> 
> 
> Joe
> 
> On 2012-06-12, at 10:40, Warren Kumari wrote:
> 
> > Hi there all,
> > 
> > So, back in (AFAIR) Taipei I proposed making AS112 instances simply be auth
> oritative for *everything*, and then simply delegating and undelegating thing
> s to it as appropriate (this would make things much simpler as there would be
>  very little coordination needed). At the time I realized that this would req
> uire synthesizing answers (always a bit of a controversial topic), but it tur
> ns out that there are a number of other things that may be equally contentiou
> s, such as (thanks to Joe for this partial list):
> > 
> > - assignment of new address space to separate omniscient and existing AS112
>  nodes
> > - v6 transport for omniscient AS112 servers
> > - naming the omniscient servers under as112.net
> > - reduced focus on the reverse tree (we could delegate anything we liked to
>  the omniscient servers)
> > - unusual NXDOMAIN responses (the included SOA will be for a fake root zone
> , not the enclosing zone)
> > There are probably a bunch of other "interesting" implications...
> > 
> > So, do any of these things sound like topics that might interest you? A goo
> d chance to get annoyed / irritated?
> > 
> > If so, here is the draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-om
> niscient-as112-00
> > If not, well, feel free to say that too :-P
> > 
> > W
> > 
> > P.S: This is already being (slightly) discussed on the AS112 ops list, but 
> having all of the discussions (hint hint) in one place would be good. Oh, I'l
> l be asking for consideration as a WG doc soon...
> > 
> > --
> > Consider orang-utans.
> > In all the worlds graced by their presence, it is suspected that they can t
> alk but choose not to do so in case humans put them to work, possibly in the 
> television industry. In fact they can talk. It's just that they talk in Orang
> -utan. Humans are only capable of listening in Bewilderment.
> > -- Terry Practhett
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > DNSOP mailing list
> > DNSOP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

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Hi Mark,

On 2012-06-27, at 20:01, Mark Andrews wrote:

> I personally think a vendor education campain would be more =
productive.
> We can't do much about already deployed servers but we can make
> sure the next major release supports RFC 6303 by default.

I'm not sure we can influence the next major release of anything with =
any certainty. I would put money on (a) AS112 traffic not dropping to =
zero any time soon, and (b) if there is v4-related AS112 traffic, that =
there will also be v6-related AS112 traffic once we have an opportunity =
to sink it.

>> - we do need some mechanism to delegate (e.g.) zones under IP6.ARPA =
correspo
>> nding to the various v6 analogues of 1918
>=20
> Do we have data that says we need to?

I don't think we get that data until we look for it, and I think we look =
for it by delegating some zones and counting queries. We just need =
somewhere to delegate the zones to. This document is a proposal which =
would facilitate such a query sink.

> Remember RFC 6303 style
> support for ULA was permitted a long time ago.  ISC added it to
> named in 9.4.0.  Full RFC 6303 support, to cover the RFC 1918
> reverses, was only added in 9.9.0 the first major release after RFC
> 6303 was published.

I think I interpret your note as "ISC is taking steps to reduce traffic =
on the AS112 servers through the knobs and switches available in BIND" =
which I think is commendable and great, but not entirely an answer to =
the question.

>> Adopt this doc?


Joe