From lars@netapp.com Tue Apr 23 10:42:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630F021F9691 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.989, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, TVD_SPACE_RATIO=2.219] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xULix23M-u6d for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D68421F966B for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,536,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="44008290" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 23 Apr 2013 10:42:16 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com (exchsmtp.hq.netapp.com [10.106.77.35]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3NHgGjk001997 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.35]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:42:16 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "ericas@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: test Thread-Index: AQHOQEnlJPhcD4lk+0yaQuNQpY79FA== Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:42:16 +0000 Message-ID: <68EEE551-FA87-4D40-88D7-E0B448461699@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ericas] test X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:42:26 -0000 From sm@elandsys.com Sun Apr 28 11:58:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C47621F89FD for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.468 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.468 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MO8oXPmqlXQm for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7AC21F86EA for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.232.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3SIwMkQ018647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:58:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367175514; bh=uXwm8Jjqf58AWFCF73mkpM4oiQQyUOMZnU83NShbftY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=N9m72LgkFgU5/8F4HlkPY0R/nWY27qEKMW55uos5vZUDa5HumSJVKPCS3EtB8636F ja7K7gH06vmguBGVnAF9EPimixvYQy/302OrDwMJ13FW4TUwFC1obKAa1xDZVUcKqh hVUtsZQvtBzcHNChJWLN4sIqrQfQ/AI9Y+wUkwiQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367175514; i=@elandsys.com; bh=uXwm8Jjqf58AWFCF73mkpM4oiQQyUOMZnU83NShbftY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=Bdjea/paUGzlWck/NkO9Y5BAfuSgCURvog5pFGP30zBtr2R0v/z3f/4vrv1XReZh8 Hcm8R9cq07b0NolWx+/1xnJz7heZyw2lDeell42gifRUlaLxdGl0U4H6w2dgkWVIPD vCFmZ/u+QjvzDee8qMAmAZzxvevaYtYgWwWsvP/U= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:55:04 -0700 To: ericas@irtf.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:58:40 -0000 Hello, I would appreciate if anyone or any organization from non-emerging regions do not take any ideas proposed by people from emerging regions and take credit for it. There are some people from non-emerging regions on this mailing list who have been unselfish and have helped emerging regions. I have not seen them taking credit for that. There are currently only three persons from emerging regions on directorates (Fernando, Vinayak). What I would like to highlight is that it is difficult to find people from emerging regions who can and will contribute. There is the money barrier. It is very expensive to attend IETF meetings. It's nearly impossible to get funding probably because the local community does not see any value in the IETF. There are a few people who may have heard of the IETF. Some of them have very little understanding of how the IETF works. It is mentioned that individuals from Africa or South America are participating in the IETF when it is well-known that the number of individuals is so small that it is not even relevant. As someone mentioned in a report, it is a known fact that organizations will bring in people from these regions even though it is well-known that they cannot participate. There are people from emerging regions who make the matter worse. They understand the politics and use it for their own gain. Emerging regions end up having a bad reputation because of that. It would help if the IETF put in effort in reaching out to people from emerging regions. That is not happening at the moment. I understand that the IETF does not have the resources to do that. I would describe the main barrier as politics. Some people from non-emerging countries turn a blind eye to the problems or choose to tackle problems where the outcome might suit their interests. I would like to thank Lars Eggert for setting up this mailing list. I encourage people from emerging regions to use this opportunity to discuss about the challenges. It is up to you to speak up by posting you opinion to this mailing list. If you do not do that people from non-emerging regions will speak in your name and it is unlikely that it will be in your interest. Regards, S. Moonesamy From melinda.shore@nomountain.net Sun Apr 28 12:15:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B09F21F9D05 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id btscaTLUbOMv for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcaib.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B61821F9D04 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F138126C05E for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:15:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=nomountain.net; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=nomountain.net ; b=rybqIyRlSql+5v/yaGhf43AeNsa/SMw6SdTaj9lzd2I9Sb9RGND+WwHAcs3/ fCp7YOO0Xzexz8GmOSdzcQh1AO6zcgmJm8g8O22+f8y9NA0I4RgeEQbXdB237GVW Kq7q1DC67lkbR7+w4tOTJLC8r0AL4jkZvVBZglQ6nBXzidM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=nomountain.net; h= message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= nomountain.net; bh=/6POBndS3WZM6n0Z0w3p4xpJX00=; b=HKGXK4xxJXfRS bapVPyRavtbs02xIe5+rdWfZTpPdO4SRPTs+ioActar7X5Bu50rzqH0vcwHS5SfC L2xeTv9rbt45PeoHKgmwzjkCV8eL+lJYY1fYtwnDP2EP6bhbgWmgk26UV9I+onaN Zqq43iUsGpIC8emydV1bGgw+6+z6vw= Received: from spandex.local (66-230-87-94-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net [66.230.87.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: melinda.shore@nomountain.net) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8EB126C05B for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:15:41 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:15:46 -0000 On 4/28/13 10:55 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > There is the money barrier. It is very expensive to attend IETF > meetings. It's nearly impossible to get funding probably because the > local community does not see any value in the IETF. There are a few > people who may have heard of the IETF. Some of them have very little > understanding of how the IETF works. Do you feel that ISOC has a role to play in this? I should add that I'm not thrilled with the emphasis on meeting attendance as a marker of participation or non-participation. We may not be doing a very good job of communicating how to participate in the IETF process without traveling to meetings. Melinda -- Melinda Shore No Mountain Software melinda.shore@nomountain.net "Software longa, hardware brevis." From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Sun Apr 28 12:46:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E521F9A0A for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:46:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFlkdQIrSbVG for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46AD21F9A06 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598D5BE6F; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:46:03 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8LacSL63RBHt; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:46:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.10] (unknown [86.46.22.79]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 997F4BE5C; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:46:02 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <517D7C75.4090806@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:45:57 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130404 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Melinda Shore References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:46:29 -0000 On 04/28/2013 08:15 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 4/28/13 10:55 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: >> There is the money barrier. It is very expensive to attend IETF >> meetings. It's nearly impossible to get funding probably because the >> local community does not see any value in the IETF. There are a few >> people who may have heard of the IETF. Some of them have very little >> understanding of how the IETF works. > > Do you feel that ISOC has a role to play in this? > > I should add that I'm not thrilled with the emphasis on meeting > attendance as a marker of participation or non-participation. We > may not be doing a very good job of communicating how to participate > in the IETF process without traveling to meetings. Sort of agree. I'd be interested in learning more about how and why Internet protocols work well or badly in emerging regions and in suggestions as to what could be done about that. That doesn't need bodies in Berlin but would benefit from that. S. > > Melinda > From sm@elandsys.com Sun Apr 28 14:33:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F162D21F8314 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9zlMW6ynrdEl for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6AB21F983E for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.232.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3SLXXZo009133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:33:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367184825; bh=w+Xc4KFjdzg19veqKC8VGtV+ymI65oTrODIxWiUkxBU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=29qpLK0mp09IeHrTlyu97e9eIVtV66JWqZDperLW59sqpTyuP7Ob7FeJxNiotFTYW wJBy0RmgOwKnE2HKfKvydxFP/ECp6Uu37Ca2GqJhn8TpLW2G1jQt+EGwSnw5i9Eux8 Le5Es6uSHc66n5Hk4ptxoZ3fxZtxnWTPqMP6iLmE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367184825; i=@elandsys.com; bh=w+Xc4KFjdzg19veqKC8VGtV+ymI65oTrODIxWiUkxBU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=P5M93Fo/BpOAdj2+h25hpmVFf9wFJtwgKbQjj8c/qzNX/j20F1P8viS47pu7rppke QAOkEF2V0r6Qh1XlfF4ngtImQuKVWZiY1T8lqLY7C8RHhRTk3xOqcK5uZfSDFJTPsO jD65inMWltcZDrF9D9MPRrQPWxoI5glT1YJiE/qQ= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428125325.0cbaad98@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:00:43 -0700 To: Melinda Shore From: SM In-Reply-To: <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:33:50 -0000 Hi Melinda, At 12:15 28-04-2013, Melinda Shore wrote: >Do you feel that ISOC has a role to play in this? There was a meeting between some IETF people and the German Federal government ( http://www.isoc.de/wer-macht-das-internet/ ). My guess is that approach is more effective. It's not easy to identify the "right" people to talk to in emerging regions. Someone also has to identify what the people want. It is a huge challenge. >I should add that I'm not thrilled with the emphasis on meeting >attendance as a marker of participation or non-participation. We >may not be doing a very good job of communicating how to participate >in the IETF process without traveling to meetings. I am not thrilled either. I was chatting with a PhD student from Greece who was following an IETF plenary remotely even though it was very late for him. He has never attended an IETF meeting. He was participating in an IETF WG. He also writes code. That is the side of the IETF which might go unseen. I agree that we do not a good job of communicating how to participate. I don't know how to solve that. :-( There are language and cultural barriers for people from emerging regions. I guess it is like entering a strange place and trying to find your way. You are without any friends and you don't know who will help you. Regards, S. Moonesamy From sm@elandsys.com Sun Apr 28 15:37:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D802921F98C0 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:37:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fInqLCfFEdm7 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762B321F98B1 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.232.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3SMZbbC020574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:35:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367188549; bh=KJ6bHTWL62ShSlpWSrmerdlRHm3esS/Pg1EgIXiShqk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=vBz7/+0OZxD9rDGglINA4A4ffgW05GUqWcjUPiULlv57NwNug00c3GpEnYS/7fT3h JHVORbMOvMzgI42Hv4X7FaIWLNSmxDGikW7KTWUfYaEDhPRn/u7NhAx8z7660Eg1FZ 9r9cn6RSovs/u0OI/qnLBJIwdJfNvhnSbXng9Ibg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367188549; i=@elandsys.com; bh=KJ6bHTWL62ShSlpWSrmerdlRHm3esS/Pg1EgIXiShqk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=SkyGYUkwzxYzeghJUd72g6BxB5VxLQtRzB4Qa5bnbmyTWfnKYaRKdShlo+hOZcUy5 C5WhwF6+qsb2TeZ2NJcIQwkud28gp8RZLjHXVaLzDugG7c9cTu5HVbnbfFjtkztKdM jgBHGEF25UMlsAOnwggus2DCWgFAR+FOT3nkgdsg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428151412.0cbaa210@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:35:23 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <517D7C75.4090806@cs.tcd.ie> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> <517D7C75.4090806@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Melinda Shore , ericas@irtf.org Subject: [ericas] How and why Internet protocols work well or badly in emerging regions (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:37:14 -0000 Hi Stephen, At 12:45 28-04-2013, Stephen Farrell wrote: >Sort of agree. I'd be interested in learning more about how >and why Internet protocols work well or badly in emerging >regions and in suggestions as to what could be done about >that. That doesn't need bodies in Berlin but would benefit That's a general question. It may be easier for the person reading your message if the question is about a specific protocol. The question could also be framed in terms of a request for someone from an emerging region to test an Internet protocol. There is a community in Brazil which seems quite active (my guess). As a start you could get someone to translate your message in Portuguese and help reach out to them. There may be also be people involved in open source projects which might be able to help find answers. Regards, S. Moonesamy From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Sun Apr 28 15:58:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA9C21F8523 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:58:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.732 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.732 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.867, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SRl0fRDZmFxm for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E9521F8518 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798ABBE47; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:58:14 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WFJfSZ6uOK72; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:58:13 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.10] (unknown [86.46.22.79]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A51F6BE3E; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:58:13 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <517DA985.5050105@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:58:13 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130404 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S Moonesamy References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> <517D7C75.4090806@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20130428151412.0cbaa210@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428151412.0cbaa210@elandnews.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Melinda Shore , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] How and why Internet protocols work well or badly in emerging regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:58:37 -0000 Hiya, On 04/28/2013 11:35 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Stephen, > At 12:45 28-04-2013, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> Sort of agree. I'd be interested in learning more about how >> and why Internet protocols work well or badly in emerging >> regions and in suggestions as to what could be done about >> that. That doesn't need bodies in Berlin but would benefit > > That's a general question. It may be easier for the person reading your > message if the question is about a specific protocol. The question > could also be framed in terms of a request for someone from an emerging > region to test an Internet protocol. I'm not sure if a general or more specific question will be better to be honest. Probably the right people are more important than the right question at this stage. > There is a community in Brazil which seems quite active (my guess). As > a start you could get someone to translate your message in Portuguese > and help reach out to them. There may be also be people involved in > open source projects which might be able to help find answers. Well, I don't have a "message" but rather would like to hear from folks in emerging reasons about how well/badly Internet protocols work for them. I doubt trying to translate that query into any specific language is really the next step. I suspect that if there are folks on here that could talk about that, those folks have enough English to do that here. (If not, or uncertain, feel free to contact me off list, I'm happy to try help if there's a specific way in which I can do that.) S. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > From vinayakh@gmail.com Sun Apr 28 17:36:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847DE21F9902 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VIyHX2a95xXW for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f181.google.com (mail-pd0-f181.google.com [209.85.192.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926EB21F9901 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f181.google.com with SMTP id q10so963789pdj.40 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:36:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=WDFGp4S8rpzZE4mCpiuQOcJGAeEM60H689dNrUXDujA=; b=BMfv6XJWk+oCZtTMHa/ypCn0tx9Oc2Cnd3RxH1ZLvdUTB8NJC07mNYB2E3iAlvZywG hSx5j0q/UUttU8r+eKlsgxv8lQkdHcA37Tt9Cab/xw37EG4Es7mOjN6WPwksMxxnTEPJ xRcR6V5afLU9upVLcRAC3+a4BHj5xizNXXCBBeIW3YJLP2z7Xod1cH/M3n4XkUjcFIcZ uKJ6ZYNJvHqR1VXnGLE2h1PZCGZTXPnkAMVCltwvb3ZtJaI0J6UncpwyXPBFcSBuBXwh YzfhaeGiIMH4RweexwF7vDJGclIXIMn1LZ9u5zcm2odjRHsKGFYR/+xKIG/xDzxNESLZ mFdw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.13.194 with SMTP id j2mr37731359pac.205.1367195767226; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.156.234 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:36:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:06:07 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51dd28b0b4c6c04db7512e5 Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:36:11 -0000 --bcaec51dd28b0b4c6c04db7512e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:25 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hello, > > I would appreciate if anyone or any organization from non-emerging regions > do not take any ideas proposed by people from emerging regions and take > credit for it. There are some people from non-emerging regions on this > mailing list who have been unselfish and have helped emerging regions. I > have not seen them taking credit for that. > > There are currently only three persons from emerging regions on > directorates (Fernando, Vinayak). What I would like to highlight is that > it is difficult to find people from emerging regions who can and will > contribute. > > Partly I think these people are self-selecting. It is a chicken and egg problem. People do not participate and hence do not see value. There is some initial handholding required. The IETF culture is very different from most other conferences I have been to. The ISOC Fellowship to the IETF does help people to get to meetings. That is very useful as nothing can replace the meeting experience. I am saying this from the personal experience. I had been participating remotely and on the mailing lists before attending the meeting. The meeting was a very different experience. > There is the money barrier. It is very expensive to attend IETF meetings. > It's nearly impossible to get funding probably because the local community > does not see any value in the IETF. There are a few people who may have > heard of the IETF. Some of them have very little understanding of how the > IETF works. > > True. A chicken-and-egg problem. Thanks to ISOC, we have some participants from India. I am planning to get them together and create a small community in Bangalore (which has enough critical mass of techies related to Internet). Also I think people from emerging countries should help themselves and not wait for outside help. I think South America has some critical mass and has some good leaders in Alejandro / Eduardo / Hugo who attend meetings regularly and also participate in the regional conferences. I have met quite a few active participants from South America. I am pretty sure that atleast some of this success can be replicated in other regions. I attended SANOG and local ISOC meetings and talked about the IETF (and my experience at the meetings and the mailing lists). There was a good deal of interest and a few people joined the mailing lists and applied for the fellowships but again there was no initial handholding and some of these people dropped off. IF anyone has any suggestions on how to do this better, then they are welcome. It is mentioned that individuals from Africa or South America are > participating in the IETF when it is well-known that the number of > individuals is so small that it is not even relevant. As someone mentioned > in a report, it is a known fact that organizations will bring in people > from these regions even though it is well-known that they cannot > participate. There are people from emerging regions who make the matter > worse. They understand the politics and use it for their own gain. > Emerging regions end up having a bad reputation because of that. > > True. I have seen people from emerging regions who come to the meeting but do not contribute (at least continually) but it is a hard problem to solve. It would help if the IETF put in effort in reaching out to people from > emerging regions. That is not happening at the moment. I understand that > the IETF does not have the resources to do that. > I think having IETF meetings in places where you want to encourage participation is a good idea. I have raised these before but honestly the answers were unsatisfying. The worst I have heard is that most of the participants come from NA/Europe and for them traveling is hard / expensive. If we want to maintain the status quo then it will be maintained (if we accept reasons such as this). I see very few reasons why a IETF meeting cannot be held in India or in South America. I have brought this up with IAOC members (active/inactive) and not got convincing answers. The W3C meeting was held in Hyderabad a couple of years back and a SIGCOMM meeting was held in Delhi. SANOG has been held in India for several years. All were well attended and went off well. What will also help is that if we can have a pre/post meetings (I don't know how this can be done) so that there is continuous interest leading to the event so it is not a one-off thing. I think this happened in Beijing and there is some good participation from China. > > I would describe the main barrier as politics. Some people from > non-emerging countries turn a blind eye to the problems or choose to tackle > problems where the outcome might suit their interests. > See above > > I would like to thank Lars Eggert for setting up this mailing list. I > encourage people from emerging regions to use this opportunity to discuss > about the challenges. It is up to you to speak up by posting you opinion > to this mailing list. If you do not do that people from non-emerging > regions will speak in your name and it is unlikely that it will be in your > interest. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy --bcaec51dd28b0b4c6c04db7512e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:25 AM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Hello,

I would appreciate if anyone or any organization from non-emerging regions = do not take any ideas proposed by people from emerging regions and take cre= dit for it. =A0There are some people from non-emerging regions on this mail= ing list who have been unselfish and have helped emerging regions. =A0I hav= e not seen them taking credit for that.

There are currently only three persons from emerging regions on directorate= s (Fernando, Vinayak). =A0What I would like to highlight is that it is diff= icult to find people from emerging regions who can and will contribute.


Partly I think these people are self-selecting. I= t is a chicken and egg problem. People do not participate and hence do not = see value. There is some initial handholding required. The IETF culture is = very different from most other conferences I have been to. The ISOC Fellows= hip to the IETF does help people to get to meetings. That is very useful as= nothing can replace the meeting experience. I am saying this from the pers= onal experience. I had been participating remotely and on the mailing lists= before attending the meeting. The meeting was a very different experience.=
=A0
There is the money barrier. =A0It is very expensive to attend IETF meetings= . =A0It's nearly impossible to get funding probably because the local c= ommunity does not see any value in the IETF. =A0There are a few people who = may have heard of the IETF. =A0Some of them have very little understanding = of how the IETF works.


True. A chicken-and-egg problem. Thanks to ISOC, = we have some participants from India. I am planning to get them together an= d create a small community in Bangalore (which has enough critical mass of = techies related to Internet). Also I think people from emerging countries s= hould help themselves and not wait for outside help. I think South America = has some critical mass and has some good leaders in Alejandro / Eduardo / H= ugo who attend meetings regularly and also participate in the regional conf= erences. I have met quite a few active participants from South America. I a= m pretty sure that atleast some of this success can be replicated in other = regions.

I attended SANOG and local ISOC meetings and talked about the IETF (and= my experience at the meetings and the mailing lists). There was a good dea= l of interest and a few people joined the mailing lists and applied for the= fellowships but again there was no initial handholding and some of these p= eople dropped off. IF anyone has any suggestions on how to do this better, = then they are welcome.

It is mentioned that individuals from Africa or South America are participa= ting in the IETF when it is well-known that the number of individuals is so= small that it is not even relevant. =A0As someone mentioned in a report, i= t is a known fact that organizations will bring in people from these region= s even though it is well-known that they cannot participate. =A0There are p= eople from emerging regions who make the matter worse. =A0They understand t= he politics and use it for their own gain. =A0Emerging regions end up havin= g a bad reputation because of that.


True. I have seen people from emerging regions wh= o come to the meeting but do not contribute (at least continually) but it i= s a hard problem to solve.

It would help if the IETF put in effort in reaching out to people from emer= ging regions. =A0That is not happening at the moment. =A0I understand that = the IETF does not have the resources to do that.

I think having IETF meetings in places where you want to encourage particip= ation is a good idea. I have raised these before but honestly the answers w= ere unsatisfying. The worst I have heard is that most of the participants c= ome from NA/Europe and for them traveling is hard / expensive. If we want t= o maintain the status quo then it will be maintained (if we accept reasons = such as this). I see very few reasons why a IETF meeting cannot be held in = India or in South America. I have brought this up with IAOC members (active= /inactive) and not got convincing answers. The W3C meeting was held in Hyde= rabad a couple of years back and a SIGCOMM meeting was held in Delhi. SANOG= has been held in India for several years. All were well attended and went = off well. What will also help is that if we can have a pre/post meetings (I= don't know how this can be done) so that there is continuous interest = leading to the event so it is not a one-off thing. I think this happened in= Beijing and there is some good participation from China.
=A0

I would describe the main barrier as politics. =A0Some people from non-emer= ging countries turn a blind eye to the problems or choose to tackle problem= s where the outcome might suit their interests.

See above

I would like to thank Lars Eggert for setting up this mailing list. =A0I en= courage people from emerging regions to use this opportunity to discuss abo= ut the challenges. =A0It is up to you to speak up by posting you opinion to= this mailing list. =A0If you do not do that people from non-emerging regio= ns will speak in your name and it is unlikely that it will be in your inter= est.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
--bcaec51dd28b0b4c6c04db7512e5-- From vinayakh@gmail.com Sun Apr 28 17:52:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D962121F9903 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P6117UO+VYDw for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-da0-x229.google.com (mail-da0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335FE21F98FE for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-da0-f41.google.com with SMTP id p8so1135817dan.14 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=xdU44l+zZ+muOjqno1eZuV07Y7YZS5CJqKb3zn1Cmj4=; b=UcbUKDZXf53PYLgdfCZCkw6Pew/uNIqgspsIktBRlHyMxrYcUHv//85JC2DVnR7UlQ zTQrHZI0r5gQSmKNicanY6tATK76cyQ53hgAld0avyJPwNDl0IPtUY2lzENDhfTFZQPT MAxQLkl2inHdOuehZMhR2j8gzBcArElmkEZLUkryxciGHDIATH8FugP0Fr1ghQUW33TW qR8qBh/hIta54t9yoS9rLTcueThysOMrY641vpROEI8t0RL0pPslBNbzu37Sh4bMpRC8 tzRoxFwUHHxCO7e0/fl6+ZJy3HSQu37omnW1u8KhBlmhYyTJSSjga5aNWTTIylk9Ljr1 WjaA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.102.66 with SMTP id fm2mr10804030pbb.168.1367196742945; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.156.234 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:52:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> <517D755D.8050902@nomountain.net> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:22:22 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Melinda Shore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b675dea3398f304db754cc9 Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:52:24 -0000 --047d7b675dea3398f304db754cc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:45 AM, Melinda Shore < melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote: > On 4/28/13 10:55 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > > There is the money barrier. It is very expensive to attend IETF > > meetings. It's nearly impossible to get funding probably because the > > local community does not see any value in the IETF. There are a few > > people who may have heard of the IETF. Some of them have very little > > understanding of how the IETF works. > > Do you feel that ISOC has a role to play in this? > ISOC has been doing a decent job with the ISOC fellowship to the IETF and NGL (Next Generation Leaders) programme. What would help is some kind of workshops co-located with ISOC regional Chapters events which give an idea of what IETF meeting works and how to participate. Maybe a local co-ordinated effort when IETF meetings are in progress. > > I should add that I'm not thrilled with the emphasis on meeting > attendance as a marker of participation or non-participation. We > may not be doing a very good job of communicating how to participate > in the IETF process without traveling to meetings. > > Yes and No. First the Yes part. Agree on the part that IETF meetings should not be used as a marker. Why the reserved No ? Traveling to a meeting is a very different experience than attending remotely. A couple of examples to qualify my reservations. When participating remotely, it is not possible to have/eavesdrop on corridor conversations. Much of my IETF learning has been this way. I listen into conversations and ask "dumb" questions. Most people are helpful with pointers and context. People who attend IETF regularly underestimate the amount of knowledge trapped in the heads of regular IETF attendees. Another aspect is cultural. I have been lucky enough to get several good mentors at IETF who encouraged me. I have also been lucky to have attended a few meetings thanks to ISOC. The #1 piece of advice I give to people from Asia (especially South-east Asia) is to not take the comments on the draft / discussions personally. You will not believe the cultural shock that people get from direct feedback. People have thanked me for giving this advice. In Asia, we are every non-confrontational so it can be a little jarring to attend some of the WG meetings. I had worked with an American based MNC where this kind of interactions were quite frequent but even for me the initial IETF WG meetings were a little jarring. I will not bore people with the details though. I have come to appreciate deeply this aspect of IETF culture to "get stuff done" but it does take a while to get it. Regards Vinayak --047d7b675dea3398f304db754cc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:45 AM, Melinda Shore = <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:
On 4/28/13 10:55 AM, S Moonesamy wrote:
> There is the money barrier. =A0It is very expensive to attend IETF
> meetings. =A0It's nearly impossible to get funding probably becaus= e the
> local community does not see any value in the IETF. =A0There are a few=
> people who may have heard of the IETF. =A0Some of them have very littl= e
> understanding of how the IETF works.

Do you feel that ISOC has a role to play in this?

ISOC has been doing a decent job with the ISOC fellowship to the IETF= and NGL (Next Generation Leaders) programme. What would help is some kind = of workshops co-located with ISOC regional Chapters events which give an id= ea of what IETF meeting works and how to participate. Maybe a local co-ordi= nated effort when IETF meetings are in progress.
=A0

I should add that I'm not thrilled with the emphasis on meeting
attendance as a marker of participation or non-participation. =A0We
may not be doing a very good job of communicating how to participate
in the IETF process without traveling to meetings.

Yes and No.

First the Yes part. Agree on the part that IETF meet= ings should not be used as a marker.

Why the reserved No ? Travelin= g to a meeting is a very different experience than attending remotely. A co= uple of examples to qualify my reservations. When participating remotely, i= t is not possible to have/eavesdrop on corridor conversations. Much of my I= ETF learning has been this way. I listen into conversations and ask "d= umb" questions. Most people are helpful with pointers and context. Peo= ple who attend IETF regularly underestimate the amount of knowledge trapped= in the heads of regular IETF attendees.

Another aspect is cultural. I have been lucky enough to get several goo= d mentors at IETF who encouraged me. I have also been lucky to have attende= d a few meetings thanks to ISOC. The #1 piece of advice I give to people fr= om Asia (especially South-east Asia) is to not take the comments on the dra= ft / discussions personally. You will not believe the cultural shock that p= eople get from direct feedback. People have thanked me for giving this advi= ce. In Asia, we are every non-confrontational so it can be a little jarring= to attend some of the WG meetings. I had worked with an American based MNC= where this kind of interactions were quite frequent but even for me the in= itial IETF WG meetings were a little jarring. I will not bore people with t= he details though. I have come to appreciate deeply this aspect of IETF cul= ture to "get stuff done" but it does take a while to get it.

Regards
Vinayak
--047d7b675dea3398f304db754cc9-- From arturo.servin@gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:19:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E5321F9946 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QarXCo8IZ3JK for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22e.google.com (mail-qa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B49921F9947 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id p6so836280qad.19 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=frtLN+gEhiUQV07oE2Ms0Vs1/FI/UZG6KOfjAvBLodY=; b=xUFkb+80TcEV4VWy67rFMd5CfBZTSR4JK9kK2wwBCAbnU41BkWtNKUrRyz9SBAdqke 00dN7NCzEP8/fa1XpCNPgqPqDihvF2o9PvwCNgyPEiLqUrTOW2+l5tFqk1xo0rBG+0Ni mmViLp+mGHAMEBtWlHGuKmilL5PFnbMnHGVVcP2N8NttMATzkdTCo6JE5ZaE4Uy8zUkc rSgrBp8Cbwa9Y6Ckwo6teWR5P3YEFXbP8RjYhDJwbXuyCPbj5+Fi6CPu1RLdqm7fxdFk xYrYTxb56el/LwhRrDiOlUjW3fx0cRPlFX+4xmGhjSNBdYGS87lkHPBsAB1/+nixM4QK 9cyw== X-Received: by 10.49.5.39 with SMTP id p7mr8320104qep.48.1367198352742; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([2800:af:ba30:ddd9:6c76:35ce:cad:5ac9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bc5sm31039657qeb.3.2013.04.28.18.19.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:19:04 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 01:19:14 -0000 Some ideas of possible challenges for the IP suite in emergent regions: - Long delay networks - Low bandwidth networks - Satellite networks (which are low BW and have long delays) - Mesh wireless networks - Networks not connected all the time - Not reliable/slow backup networks (i.e. in many countries there is just one ISP, how can we provide multi-home for critical services using a not very reliable backup link, for example a satellite link, a 3/4G, dial-up, etc.) These are the problems that for instance, I suffer or I know people that do. Nevertheless I imagine there should be many more of these. I imagine that a first step would be to document a set of problems on which we could try to solve. Regards, as From melinda.shore@nomountain.net Sun Apr 28 18:49:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D9D21F8640 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:49:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FNhFLIoesuth for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcahe.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F98621F854E for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC93467C06D for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:49:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=nomountain.net; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=nomountain.net ; b=QdybWLfMLWJzki/Seb9pAv0H3ZoXybEd5A/ca6FtP291eIjxSINarIe1qj1Q voXDhN1uwmGcvv+eq8IY4nGFFVcW6yy8C1gijudc6CDohilStEWGFYF8GE40EScm 19w2GMCGhLAoz/DdluQQ2cTTm2P14liqpyMIv5fXUB3+OK8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=nomountain.net; h= message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= nomountain.net; bh=5eIlF0DRfsaaFLilojW0ju9KvVs=; b=Z0viMElACPNW4 jip3eUoAz1rnQB+V/AQ1ezVyTI2iwtuVp619VJv0DBUalP3xJn2vCp9oH3pgW1FB M7pCi39krE1+n5KRS1rdOkkqgkNf8HFvVLTPhj0RX05yaqfcbzgS5q+uYc26+Irm xrZ9ahMsAjW6aRucKN0V+QKU6oKDH0= Received: from spandex.local (66-230-87-94-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net [66.230.87.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: melinda.shore@nomountain.net) by homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A591367C069 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:49:25 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 01:49:28 -0000 On 4/28/13 5:19 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > Some ideas of possible challenges for the IP suite in emergent regions: > > - Long delay networks > - Low bandwidth networks > - Satellite networks (which are low BW and have long delays) > - Mesh wireless networks > - Networks not connected all the time > - Not reliable/slow backup networks (i.e. in many countries there is > just one ISP, how can we provide multi-home for critical services using > a not very reliable backup link, for example a satellite link, a 3/4G, > dial-up, etc.) If I can split hairs for a second, these problems are not peculiar to emergent regions but to remote places without a lot of local infrastructure. We have these same problems in Alaska (particularly in villages off the road system) and my understanding is that they're not uncommon in northern Canada and portions of some of the nordic countries. Melinda -- Melinda Shore No Mountain Software melinda.shore@nomountain.net "Software longa, hardware brevis." From arturo.servin@gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:52:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF78321F9904 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2sCdGB3AwueZ for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22b.google.com (mail-qa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC8921F98FF for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id bs12so842669qab.2 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:52:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pVflNxoGROkw7fenT6oFSFIl/ozmkrw7ocgaewc9De8=; b=Mnx1oZ+mYUx+7hh5vW1sIvOYQVUzEp7EqT/7lxjgDF1zecjHipA+B/jzVmqnLgisMc PDyfO++CCn1t/27ginJ1ZXsMsCVImCBJ30gWFAT8GXy8mwCDhIEGe3UyZXJIAkmgnZn9 PdVWhiyMNVR9kV4lJU6FwJfr3X//FE/HtSuFopBQ2ZP61cT8DHwvYAQJaW88SfzUFL8m Dzb06MDgaNNX+TjviXOb9EVYrkQcOLGJsfIS3XlekLwIEXTeycen3rK3Wrx3ATtt1we7 /pDSUMCzSikOt6z6tok0ZVtqq8mZijGDVAb8XhcpwQv9UuxLcThWvDB+dnjtGrzz5Dqh 2Liw== X-Received: by 10.229.16.6 with SMTP id m6mr2186151qca.35.1367200342597; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([2800:af:ba30:ddd9:6c76:35ce:cad:5ac9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s10sm10456221qam.7.2013.04.28.18.52.19 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <517DD24F.1070104@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:52:15 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 01:52:23 -0000 These are problems of emergent regions and remote places. /as On 4/28/13 10:49 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 4/28/13 5:19 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: >> Some ideas of possible challenges for the IP suite in emergent regions: >> >> - Long delay networks >> - Low bandwidth networks >> - Satellite networks (which are low BW and have long delays) >> - Mesh wireless networks >> - Networks not connected all the time >> - Not reliable/slow backup networks (i.e. in many countries there is >> just one ISP, how can we provide multi-home for critical services using >> a not very reliable backup link, for example a satellite link, a 3/4G, >> dial-up, etc.) > > If I can split hairs for a second, these problems are not peculiar > to emergent regions but to remote places without a lot of local > infrastructure. We have these same problems in Alaska (particularly > in villages off the road system) and my understanding is that they're > not uncommon in northern Canada and portions of some of the nordic > countries. > > Melinda > From alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Sun Apr 28 18:59:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208CD21F8F12 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09yG8R4ru7Gk for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F7A21F8E6E for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id ht10so1437695vcb.27 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:59:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=v0HyIvz93BoQ5tmQvSPh5s5wqo/76dbvJfQZqTaL8h4=; b=omUYZEpQorz3Q6pjIk9hItd8fitPX/W3w2ej/LZWRkjbK7g3i4GkN4eB/7F9HUzT4D 9d++EcfYQ1l5fb26euYrDulSjtDOWQZuNYxYaTz+s6TRpL9VyCJTAe/f6FzV4yeBeg91 TKFOpxtwF7/vOxNPkuZCBamcU9Hrx346hJtd7JZleVT4dZ0idTtjdwOkN7rQSHgb6C/O bHq3EqfUXhO+8EIuNtde5RATF5TWoCk385yurPOLkphjtlE0NF2uGwKH6Ax7dTXqPXA1 euQI3Ex2Rl9BVfN42jOMNhHBQtrikIuKZ8ne/o/NWhFDpqcAv5om2yurFKW9exe478t3 XgcA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.167.9 with SMTP id o9mr32243108vcy.25.1367200787616; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.76.161 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:29:47 -0430 Message-ID: From: Alejandro Acosta To: ericas@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "andres.arcia" Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 01:59:49 -0000 Hi Arturo, This is a copy/paste from the mailing list archive. I just subscribed. Regarding satellite networks I can mention few things. Some toughs: - TCP spoofing increases and improves a lot satellite links. I fully recommend it. Very, very few problems reported when using TCP spoofing, mainly some https connections. But one more time, almost none. The improvement is over >25 % - Andres Arcia (co-author of RFC 5690, on cc) has some recommendations in this respect since he has done several studies in this area. He recommends different handling of tcp acks, he has already some Linux-modified kernels to test. We've also gathered a lot of data and we can continue testing some things. - Delay looks (and it's) impossible to improve - VoIP runs ok using SIP with QoS and good tunning of g.729 (better than what most documents say). I don't recall the MOS but anyway it's very good. - SCPC links are extremely expensive (anywhere in the world), I think the trend is to move to eSCPC over some VSAT technologies - Transactional information (ATMs, Point of Sale) work just fine over regular VSAT (no eSCPC). Please be careful if VPNs+routing protocols run on this links, if so,, it's no any longer transactional. - Let's remember that most satellite link are asymmetric. - Regarding bandwidth I can only think in good compression technologies built in modems, more gzip in http. just my two cents, Alejandro Acosta, ----- From: Arturo Servin To: ericas at irtf.org Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:19:04 -0300 List-id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " Some ideas of possible challenges for the IP suite in emergent regions: - Long delay networks - Low bandwidth networks - Satellite networks (which are low BW and have long delays) - Mesh wireless networks - Networks not connected all the time - Not reliable/slow backup networks (i.e. in many countries there is just one ISP, how can we provide multi-home for critical services using a not very reliable backup link, for example a satellite link, a 3/4G, dial-up, etc.) These are the problems that for instance, I suffer or I know people that do. Nevertheless I imagine there should be many more of these. I imagine that a first step would be to document a set of problems on which we could try to solve. Regards, as From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Sun Apr 28 19:00:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D8621F9387 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DDInyFv7zUPh for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7BE321F8F12 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F84BE51; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 03:00:33 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Av4o6Dlc0srN; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 03:00:29 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.10] (unknown [86.46.22.79]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D6A1BE61; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 03:00:29 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 03:00:28 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130404 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Melinda Shore References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 02:00:58 -0000 On 04/29/2013 02:49 AM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 4/28/13 5:19 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: >> Some ideas of possible challenges for the IP suite in emergent regions: >> >> - Long delay networks >> - Low bandwidth networks >> - Satellite networks (which are low BW and have long delays) >> - Mesh wireless networks >> - Networks not connected all the time >> - Not reliable/slow backup networks (i.e. in many countries there is >> just one ISP, how can we provide multi-home for critical services using >> a not very reliable backup link, for example a satellite link, a 3/4G, >> dial-up, etc.) > > If I can split hairs for a second, these problems are not peculiar > to emergent regions but to remote places without a lot of local > infrastructure. We have these same problems in Alaska (particularly > in villages off the road system) and my understanding is that they're > not uncommon in northern Canada and portions of some of the nordic > countries. True, at least based my experience off-road Northern Sweden. However, in our case where we did DTN work, that was only true for about two hundred people for a few weeks of the year (summer in the mountains for the reindeer herders basically). If those conditions applied for many more people all year 'round then that would be an entirely different scenario. So I for one am very interested in the nitty-gritty details as they appear in different places. S. From melinda.shore@nomountain.net Sun Apr 28 19:24:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B02621F8519 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:24:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoESsdFSFQMs for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccac.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE1D21F845E for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE4E59405E; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:24:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=nomountain.net; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=nomountain.net ; b=c8xsCTu2LNPLIE3nCcU23fFEnZSzicAK2iPcaW8NNbQsWmVlvN2l06nFfish IuPps13l4hg1SysrFksjt44hhdQfLyv2JN56XZPG3/2cYURGCDrB19MMBiAVRYqR PcSGGuCLIt9F5Q/aTGaqpG1aBVbu0i9CraBHhxG3X9r0Hik= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=nomountain.net; h= message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= nomountain.net; bh=wvsPlQXemoPlkHFoZPv1tdZ4PfM=; b=ASx6a5/vrzD/z ilmPfA9hy9+YA16rsvnBqvOdJp6QFGCUY8d5bH6+FvW/l90gCSLq1XKXkYuEHv3G Z0KsB+ke8tVi/4ljjeG9OGpS70a2I4IuQpBARavhGF6qco8jw+yN3zNnH7qiNlZ3 dh5IrmuvsGwBHu8N//7rTzgBNy2RGE= Received: from spandex.local (66-230-87-94-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net [66.230.87.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: melinda.shore@nomountain.net) by homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E3AC594059; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:24:37 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 02:24:41 -0000 On 4/28/13 6:00 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > So I for one am very interested in the nitty-gritty details as they > appear in different places. Frankly the most pressing problems in the villages seem to be around remote device management, less of a protocol problem than a product problem. As far as delay it seems like people have found a way to negotiate that, but packet loss (particularly during weather events) can have considerable impact. Melinda -- Melinda Shore No Mountain Software melinda.shore@nomountain.net "Software longa, hardware brevis." From alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Sun Apr 28 19:31:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B9221F984E for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:31:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihgGfF+oIoNT for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x232.google.com (mail-ve0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F8D21F9839 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f178.google.com with SMTP id c13so2759752vea.9 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=nqGlZFQH5gRbNRT3KN09+bhUx7I754yjgMj625UXHSg=; b=J7Id5OR89zmOyDpSrQ7tmCKFGGCo+8ouiZx8wXwbfqafMkzrX+pF377iBQJXmqBF9Z Ag6MLFrWgFrgzUC67as2d6muRpL3wyJCtXtoMVsNmmI3AXvMO+7KMh4c2FYef9l3s0FG JBZsFgGUAYdwP4FppnBEbUW14kYWkRg4ti6Hch4s/vg1XWbSpYJqoTTUVdlALyASg3DZ Ts3zb7qXApKku2qG+X0pvxwCpC7V7HNoqlatQkLa9Mqw7D+OLLYqc05RNhmdVnbBeCMi Q5Br48fx1lXVY7M14Y6YEvaCCzrfsjM8rrKcuA/dntJAvRU314fz4Y7o8RxKbp0bFPFn cVHg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.67.67 with SMTP id q3mr1423862vci.38.1367202712265; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.76.161 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:01:52 -0430 Message-ID: From: Alejandro Acosta To: Melinda Shore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 02:31:54 -0000 Hi All, Do you know of any study/research which might say things like: a) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per population? b) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per size of the country? Of course there any many measures of speed, rtt, high speed access penetration and cost per Mbp.. Emerging region sare at the end of this list. Alejandro, On 4/28/13, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 4/28/13 6:00 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> So I for one am very interested in the nitty-gritty details as they >> appear in different places. > > Frankly the most pressing problems in the villages seem to be > around remote device management, less of a protocol problem > than a product problem. As far as delay it seems like people > have found a way to negotiate that, but packet loss (particularly > during weather events) can have considerable impact. > > Melinda > > -- > Melinda Shore > No Mountain Software > melinda.shore@nomountain.net > > "Software longa, hardware brevis." > -- ===== ^A.......o$ From sm@elandsys.com Sun Apr 28 22:51:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D8E21F8414 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:51:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzAdnheUDapI for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639AD21F8319 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3T5om7t015706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:50:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367214660; bh=f3RDKJOx0BsJKoQEbgv7DMZ3ua3kj2rBrtaOE8EMoCI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=ZPUNbxgIczEmdCRWVaB/nzSQZUoOVcweZ/un8WhyzT3brUyQgddqPHwGWypZf7/nU ZoVKFZQ4jZTH2TwOc8DQ5PsyXF/13nMTFwiq5dpovON9ER0HWIGK67mOU6c1uKLSgn 4Rm0gCv9m/1Qk2Vk009TXV8j7dM3VJw5I5Hw/gXs= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367214660; i=@elandsys.com; bh=f3RDKJOx0BsJKoQEbgv7DMZ3ua3kj2rBrtaOE8EMoCI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=satTWXp+tCCDyUhftUVaeIylvVnvAxJfR4Uph7hz3zkf4SSmQs/noIKJWBNOI+Ou8 tdPQ/MgJTwGl1QSPziT6S+ndHPLTQ+ZeVskmXuWa4w2geaf93BCgFigFNI3aJUtPtJ JIInewDSO4jMZkYVUJOJDbA9Uvm2qJXgHHjMEFjs= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428214904.0bf76b90@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:43:02 -0700 To: Vinayak Hegde From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428091705.0cbc0b60@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 05:51:13 -0000 Hi Vinayak, At 17:36 28-04-2013, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >Partly I think these people are self-selecting. It is a chicken and >egg problem. People do not participate and hence do not see value. >There is some initial handholding Thanks for participating. I agree that people do not participate and hence do not see value. >enough critical mass of techies related to Internet). Also I think >people from emerging countries should help themselves and not wait >for outside help. I think South America has some critical mass and >has some good leaders in Alejandro / Eduardo / Hugo who attend >meetings regularly and also participate in the regional conferences. >I have met quite a few active participants from South America. I am >pretty sure that atleast some of this success can be replicated in >other regions. I agree that people from emerging countries should help themselves and not wait for outside help. In my opinion there is critical mass in South America. I attended a few IETF meetings. I see people from South America emerging (you mentioned some of them above). >I attended SANOG and local ISOC meetings and talked about the IETF >(and my experience at the meetings and the mailing lists). There was >a good deal of interest and a few people joined the mailing lists >and applied for the fellowships but again there was no initial >handholding and some of these people dropped off. IF anyone has any >suggestions on how to do this better, then they are welcome. It might be good to identify people early and peer with them to overcome the barriers instead of letting people drop off. I once participated in a standardization forum. Someone complained that he applied for the ISOC fellowship several times and he never received any answer. I asked what he can do to contribute to the IETF. There was a heated discussion after that. One of the responses I heard was "we have to go to a meeting before we can contribute". I followed another standardization forum at a remote hub. There were a few IETF working group chairs doing presentations. At the end of the event I had a talk with a few participants (university people). I did not see any interest in participating. This brings us to the "do not see value" mentioned above. > India for several years. All were well attended and went off well. > What will also help is that if we can have a pre/post meetings (I > don't know how this can be done) so that there is continuous > interest leading to the event so it is not a one-off thing. I think > this happened in Beijing and there is some good participation from China. By the way China is better organized than India. There are some people from South America who have been arguing for meetings in South America. The is only person I know who argued for meetings in India. It can be seen as "not sufficient interest". You might be able to change that. :-) Regards, S. Moonesamy From sm@elandsys.com Sun Apr 28 23:19:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E6921F9A06 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqty3nC5KhSr for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E48D21F9A00 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3T6IuMR024455 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:19:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367216348; bh=i1aEOjKNd0NDpOW1k6IE63hQxDUQqDsR3nbQdhcpNgg=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=AZfzWPXxqGpNVYhft7FYFwmJYfcCocsQ4p3GLYmy/x5+w0ztB7+s6t+s36Hzx0kPh QSz2H7pmDpv0yqSXZ6NaU3kkDg081kqGrOTee4+FCDBeugRupdlare1i+9ACHE+/cT HcCujasy3NPcFxI+7q3Bx2hdU9hiozeHASEpjS2A= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367216348; i=@elandsys.com; bh=i1aEOjKNd0NDpOW1k6IE63hQxDUQqDsR3nbQdhcpNgg=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=ZqGSVIxaOgIIT4AK/cWCwQ4shGB758Lvh3INCxR3FmsetYCw5vdMwI4rf9rM1uE6d 4TfFbLSn4PqtXyh1LeT/ubtSX8uxLTZKNVAZocrs+NM9r3FLwezXTRZWTBUY36EoTf AfUAzWrBq+qmHSYk18/fJfUlCzpd4IS+lIOsycsg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428225212.0ca2bae8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:11:55 -0700 To: Alejandro Acosta From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Arturo Servin Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:19:11 -0000 Hi Alejandro, At 19:31 28-04-2013, Alejandro Acosta wrote: > Do you know of any study/research which might say things like: > >a) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per population? >b) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per size of the country? > > Of course there any many measures of speed, rtt, high speed access >penetration and cost per Mbp.. Emerging region sare at the end of this >list. Sorry, I do not have a good answer to your questions. There was a report which looked into the impact of the Web ( http://thewebindex.org/2012/10/2012-Web-Index-Key-Findings.pdf ). The questions (see above) are about infrastructure. There is very little open data from emerging regions. As a starting point people from emerging regions could collect data as part of a research project. I leave it to Arturo to comment about how to get funding if this is part of a regional project. Regards, S. Moonesamy From sm@elandsys.com Mon Apr 29 00:09:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC99F21F972C for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ATmGoHYGZ-gs for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D0D21F962C for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3T796GG015546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:09:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367219357; bh=+WToK7Ir2X0afvNe33gA6e3ZrXTeMdzTUYQ+LXG0n3s=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=xkPwW4mNEHLlRvkORoJrLGoLz+n2QSJeDOBRdWVJzmVLGwtZ2B69AmxQoFFvCxbH3 r9J6ejR+c/iuVbY8YKRwZwpYzLHwLWiWRGET3xkWnYt62doeJUC6Ml/QtNc2c8OcrF YvomeIZ2C4zSEfgg0VFYxoxABhk+YHGavCE7L8LM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367219357; i=@elandsys.com; bh=+WToK7Ir2X0afvNe33gA6e3ZrXTeMdzTUYQ+LXG0n3s=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=IGkmh2sIH3pMRNXGn//AB+j+CXpIWgXoXtiz2mtKP3MP3NmXkbXM5ntTu/5szZHms 3xnKlvwAY2MifW8yqShJe3Yk/6bsI48lAlRkdBUKQZmQQKbsVyss64/BDmWbzurEZv A675IpuGCofzsOlNyM46KehC63rjoJ/p6JlN4rdU= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:05:54 -0700 To: ericas@irtf.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:09:27 -0000 Hello, A nice person mentioned the following in a message: One of the issues some of the people from emerging region attending university in a non-emerging region see is that they don't feel they can be IETF regulars because they'll get stuck getting visas for IETF meetings. Regards, S. Moonesamy From arturo.servin@gmail.com Mon Apr 29 06:23:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2F821F9977 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nco0gYaiEOry for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gg0-x233.google.com (mail-gg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB3321F9872 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-gg0-f179.google.com with SMTP id k25so48334ggl.38 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:23:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kUXeXLzYW7OIjgo2SrPruua70DKAZG4XKU2gydiS4LM=; b=q+U5Je3r0v4AMHgjvaH+zssHZe2xpG4mkW4eNt559JNi7wCW6FxqP11vP/L54TEC/f gbZIEvhHfZq17oTiMd8lgyLKFgqXF01RWH/q5yuzPc7Dk3pqbFtjJSa4yQ6drMcOx+ej lF40hYU5dvWk04ezq7cBmSd4ZhLFS82ZGYzc/X4e5av6stdzK2hF/ye1svOItw1l2JiN z2HRnJdX1cLaesq+2eUJPsKZx25psM4eqJ6R2Cu0loMZolfGzLl9usgFm5gTmrjLL7Nm /zVcTzr0MtkeOxmWKXKw/48Pafrwm4/lXGmTtKDB8orfTWbvjGYzRRPTMa/rFpe8RUi5 wrvw== X-Received: by 10.236.131.110 with SMTP id l74mr14241291yhi.87.1367241835657; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([2001:13c7:7001:7000:c1bc:c073:400d:1421]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i44sm31741474yhk.17.2013.04.29.06.23.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <517E7464.3040500@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 10:23:48 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S Moonesamy References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20130428225212.0ca2bae8@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428225212.0ca2bae8@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Alejandro Acosta Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:23:57 -0000 On 4/29/13 3:11 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Alejandro, > At 19:31 28-04-2013, Alejandro Acosta wrote: >> Do you know of any study/research which might say things like: >> >> a) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per population? >> b) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per size of the country? >> >> Of course there any many measures of speed, rtt, high speed access >> penetration and cost per Mbp.. Emerging region sare at the end of this >> list. > > Sorry, I do not have a good answer to your questions. There was a > report which looked into the impact of the Web ( > http://thewebindex.org/2012/10/2012-Web-Index-Key-Findings.pdf ). The > questions (see above) are about infrastructure. There is very little > open data from emerging regions. As a starting point people from > emerging regions could collect data as part of a research project. I > leave it to Arturo to comment about how to get funding if this is part > of a regional project. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy There are some RIPE Atlas probes in Latin America, possibly some others in Africa and Asia where we could get some data to compare with North America and Europe. This data is not 100% public AFAIK, however it may be possible get some results involving research people at RIPE NCC. Anyone here? Also, we collect some data using our project (lacnic labs) SIMON but we haven't too much spare time to mining it. If someone wants to use the dataset or to host a probe please let me know. http://simon.labs.lacnic.net/simon http://simon.labs.lacnic.net/simon/reports/ Example of one of our reports: http://simon.labs.lacnic.net/simon/throughputresults/MX/4/2012/12/JavaScript/1 Regards, as From alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Mon Apr 29 06:56:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF9321F9A01 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U56oz7mW1kxP for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x235.google.com (mail-ve0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B1721F99E8 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f181.google.com with SMTP id d10so3069108vea.12 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:56:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=oex6TnkVwFI0NIQOsOuNj/kGvDyntxb1slpXbwmcIrI=; b=bpCcRmO75Gs7Ro8UHr/H80d+aYlDJ4Y1mPk2sGEIV4zWOVOWyUWhMnhJ1Dpynyf/rb epepziIVlkeD+Pgw87CuegkdvjxowXpy7qWJT/OqPQwc9q3k4xpI/3V45sdNibFG5v9g IPEsbUraMIlppJ6EunaiUeGI0Ly4yz1FsJwmoLaWPO/o8Uw/Cq6UQBf7ihqPgpgYJc4O nNGOg5scd63n0sE4IbvNOolSj8MQZ6soZbfR06KOB9Ml8aYSkuvOgF/hfscaIRu+1Ha4 9XoMNdX3LOQ3He2uV9MkURE8T5dfjWyi2ohwp/wMFz881nsK6dQI8NXCmuZnV0cSJ5vJ MqXA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.67.67 with SMTP id q3mr2186022vci.38.1367243798444; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.76.161 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:56:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <517E7464.3040500@gmail.com> References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20130428225212.0ca2bae8@elandnews.com> <517E7464.3040500@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 09:26:38 -0430 Message-ID: From: Alejandro Acosta To: Arturo Servin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: ericas@irtf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:56:40 -0000 Hi SM, Arturo, Thanks both. However, if was thinking in comparing infrastructure, not exactly rtt, bandwidth, and this kind of thing (I'm not saying they are less important) For example things like how many kilometers/miles of fiber are person/per square feet of the country. I know the examples given by Arturo are worldwide issues, but I think in emerging region are more common. Talking about the country I live (Venezuela) it's not common to find fiber link to many cities. It's also difficult to find fibre to many parts of the city in fact. Recently I was involved in the following situation: in a mid-size city a customer quit a Frame Relay link thinking they could replace it by a G3 connection -this order came from headquater in Germany-. Surprise: the G3 connection was pathetic, more than 1 second RTT and a lot of packet loss. Solution: The customer had to use a satellite link. Another issue (to be confirm) that I find worse in developing countries are installation times. I've participated in some project in other countries and links can be installed in few weeks. For LATAM it might take months. What about Africa?. Best regards, Alejandro, On 4/29/13, Arturo Servin wrote: > On 4/29/13 3:11 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: >> Hi Alejandro, >> At 19:31 28-04-2013, Alejandro Acosta wrote: >>> Do you know of any study/research which might say things like: >>> >>> a) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per population? >>> b) Some kind of ratio of Km of fiber per size of the country? >>> >>> Of course there any many measures of speed, rtt, high speed access >>> penetration and cost per Mbp.. Emerging region sare at the end of this >>> list. >> >> Sorry, I do not have a good answer to your questions. There was a >> report which looked into the impact of the Web ( >> http://thewebindex.org/2012/10/2012-Web-Index-Key-Findings.pdf ). The >> questions (see above) are about infrastructure. There is very little >> open data from emerging regions. As a starting point people from >> emerging regions could collect data as part of a research project. I >> leave it to Arturo to comment about how to get funding if this is part >> of a regional project. >> >> Regards, >> S. Moonesamy > > There are some RIPE Atlas probes in Latin America, possibly some others > in Africa and Asia where we could get some data to compare with North > America and Europe. > > This data is not 100% public AFAIK, however it may be possible get some > results involving research people at RIPE NCC. Anyone here? > > Also, we collect some data using our project (lacnic labs) SIMON but we > haven't too much spare time to mining it. If someone wants to use the > dataset or to host a probe please let me know. > > http://simon.labs.lacnic.net/simon > http://simon.labs.lacnic.net/simon/reports/ > > Example of one of our reports: > http://simon.labs.lacnic.net/simon/throughputresults/MX/4/2012/12/JavaScript/1 > > > Regards, > as > > -- ===== ^A.......o$ From vinayakh@gmail.com Mon Apr 29 17:37:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A16B21F9B3C for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:37:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.299, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7TZZRPrw9Mr for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f171.google.com (mail-pd0-f171.google.com [209.85.192.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 523F221F9B29 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f171.google.com with SMTP id t10so1127380pdi.16 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:37:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=lVNIZiA4Nu+uVUbWoBTbFDw6XiNv4CQloHskduJ3RJA=; b=S6Sl+FBZeQxwmjd9A03OM4M5ikO6gzaRSjiZ4IpGCG2QBCWESb8wtHNuSjCy7qYo8/ KgLexZfxmpJdxkJ74GwNjnH6MFWf7Bws/loZs+u0fIe3Vgk+wV7YEtZIw+NOo1Bqnzi7 QvjoGK4LeDS4UTxHL2/ON0mu8jtiIbcEKZ/2PzEX1X4NLzEypJIybBA8EXhb0t51V+eF V/GXx22PgLm1Uwg+QbogpxDT18wfmKLUOP2Df8c7WuyIURJU1L5OJRm3zx9wZRU9TQ4V SMpsrxIIWcTtBEYkFCmst6iNRjMzGDXlz5B2Do1SwdpvtaoX3fwSZzkRDFLYUW0wP2G8 pYiQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.229.106 with SMTP id sp10mr33111993pbc.135.1367282261972; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.156.234 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:37:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:07:41 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b162c0988614504db8935e2 Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 00:37:48 -0000 --047d7b162c0988614504db8935e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:35 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hello, > > A nice person mentioned the following in a message: > > One of the issues some of the people from emerging region attending > university > in a non-emerging region see is that they don't feel they can be IETF > regulars > because they'll get stuck getting visas for IETF meetings. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > That is true whether you are from university or not. The "emerging nations" is also 3rd world and the first world doesn't want us. Unfortunately Most IETF meetings are held in 1st world countries. Sad but true. Nothing that the IETF can do about it. Everytime I have to come to the IETF I have to spend about > $300 from my pocket to apply for Visa and almost 200 pages of documentation (I need to show that I am fiscally solvent so is the company where I work. I have a job/property/married and will not try to emigrate). I need my hotel reservations and airline tickets several months in advance. Got to live with it - no point complaining. So many people make it to the meeting despite it. Regards Vinayak --047d7b162c0988614504db8935e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:35 PM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Hello,

A nice person mentioned the following in a message:

=A0 One of the issues some of the people from emerging region attending uni= versity
=A0 in a non-emerging region see is that they don't feel they can be IE= TF regulars
=A0 because they'll get stuck getting visas for IETF meetings.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

That is true whether you are from uni= versity or not. The "emerging nations" is also 3rd world and the = first world doesn't want us. Unfortunately Most IETF meetings are held = in 1st world countries. Sad but true. Nothing that the IETF can do about it= . Everytime I have to come to the IETF I have to spend about > $300 from= my pocket to apply for Visa and almost 200 pages of documentation (I need = to show that I am fiscally solvent so is the company where I work. I have a= job/property/married and will not try to emigrate). I need my hotel reserv= ations and airline tickets several months in advance. Got to live with it -= no point complaining. So many people make it to the meeting despite it.
Regards
Vinayak
--047d7b162c0988614504db8935e2-- From sm@elandsys.com Tue Apr 30 02:03:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B27221F9A44 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAREsySawSh9 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766F021F9BAD for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3U93LNx005685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:03:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367312620; bh=4AiyvRQuN1yIsdrhUq28rALBNUlggehn85jQRQMMJJc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=UCGyiQpd93Z/Fmi8UebHVyAWvk2kxak4VST+b0I33F54NFSXoBKW9i9VCBd8eWZ5N OPu+49XvNr0q+Z4/9ucvB8zDdy0V4zMXexdkrmq7rq17SuVFiTsuDL79vDanf1Xhx0 YDUE2toIUVPGaTDP30MX2g4qtANZbnv/pggC7+L8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367312620; i=@elandsys.com; bh=4AiyvRQuN1yIsdrhUq28rALBNUlggehn85jQRQMMJJc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=EAogHfQp9J/Zp83fn0jyI8xfnMHXp5cL8WfP02YCuNHy+MJOWLzhPWJRTJaLZNWu5 pMavTfceYcil/ZzCZK4v+hbWusKvMoJMbbsucHgSrl9dC4MdIwXjr2mLvRyeInjCMb /Z5jLEXTr+T1J8DYi4dx9nxu/bejuKgZwWo7+3ts= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130430013918.0c5368e8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:02:45 -0700 To: Vinayak Hegde From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:03:44 -0000 Hi Vinayak, At 17:37 29-04-2013, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >That is true whether you are from university or not. The "emerging >nations" is also 3rd world and the first world doesn't want us. >Unfortunately Most IETF meetings are held in > 1st world countries. Sad but true. Nothing that the IETF can do > about it. Everytime I > have to come to the IETF I have to spend about > $300 from my > pocket to apply for Visa and almost 200 pages of documentation (I > need to show that I am fiscally solvent so is the company where I > work. I have a job/property/married and will not try to emigrate). > I need my hotel reservations and airline tickets several months in > advance. Got to live with it - no point complaining. So many people > make it to the meeting despite it. I have been through that too. It's less of a hassle now. This is likely due to complaints outside an IETF context. I don't think that it is less of a problem though. The first world might be reconsidering its approach due to some recent events. By the way, if anyone from emerging regions receives any comments you consider as unpleasant please send me a message off-list. Regards, S. Moonesamy From cabo@tzi.org Tue Apr 30 02:34:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5E421F9A15 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:34:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9n-KjIAG-jsA for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4601621F9B35 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 02:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3U9S2pc023400; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:28:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54893A4B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.58.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21DBE3B96; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:28:02 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:28:00 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> To: Vinayak Hegde X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: ericas@irtf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:34:09 -0000 On Apr 30, 2013, at 02:37, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > Got to live with it There is not much we can do about the visa complexity at the IETF level. But we can do two things: -- collect information about relative levels of complexities exhibited by different venues. Right now I would guess (but don't know) that it is easier for many to go to Canada than to the US. But I have no basis for that guess. The IETF could ask its registrants (I know, biased selection) to rate the visa complexity for each meeting. We would need to find some objective scale, e.g., total number of hours of work needed to obtain visa. We would also be interested in the number people who fail to obtain visa (there is some sensitive data here, of course, and some interaction with potential abuse). -- find better ways to include people who can't travel to a venue. This is, of course, useful beyond the visa issue. The visa issue might be a reason to do something specific for a region, say, when we have a meeting in the US, do something specific for people from Pakistan. I have limited fantasy what that could be. For people working in my region, I have sometimes wondered whether there is a point convening regional mirror events. E.g., I could try to assemble people "from" my region (work "from" here) that can't travel abroad, in Bremen and run a parallel event with optimized remote participation, local discussion etc. Hard to do for me because I'm likely at the main IETF. But worth a thought. Something that ISOC chapters could do, too. Just brainstorming, but maybe there is something useful here. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From vinayakh@gmail.com Tue Apr 30 08:20:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C362421F9BAD for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cGAcgnJxj5oU for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com (mail-pa0-f43.google.com [209.85.220.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9968F21F9B7C for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id hz10so410934pad.16 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:20:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N/747lUqnZOfh2fu8YVg5yt+e24m4Dkgravi1OXkKPA=; b=0gsjfALhUztkzHnpwAupgNk56DmEsNNLa3CRcoZd4ky4VQnh3inmoq/hegJQsn3w8i IrU9kHFEkMfdozvF1GMPEGYOAfhFUE312IFLZ6XsWMnCoO7Z5WdeZ5MRXIr/WqMd1OGe DQfgcB9A4yNQK77CdJm+WrxwyBR5qqdI2VL5KvNs+fArW1EF9bRRDD9HHABco80Mzk7u jbgrYsy2hcY7LzP10MjHcNAr+FEFZ9wAk9DCbmeEwyYewj1MGllY61wSNf/+Y8kco3+l lsZ5PVwvc63nNLwwOHbiD17gN627VZaY3bBDZDCVE2qYzO4+eLeuFehXrMAgG6RXFXjd b40Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.164.3 with SMTP id ym3mr76103737pbb.205.1367335250244; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.156.234 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:20:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:50:50 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b676442e13d0404db958b33 Cc: ericas@irtf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:20:57 -0000 --047d7b676442e13d0404db958b33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Apr 30, 2013, at 02:37, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > > > Got to live with it > > There is not much we can do about the visa complexity at the IETF level. > > But we can do two things: > > -- collect information about relative levels of complexities exhibited > by different venues. Right now I would guess (but don't know) that > it is easier for many to go to Canada than to the US. But I have > no basis for that guess. The IETF could ask its registrants (I > know, biased selection) to rate the visa complexity for each > meeting. We would need to find some objective scale, e.g., total > number of hours of work needed to obtain visa. We would also be > interested in the number people who fail to obtain visa (there is > some sensitive data here, of course, and some interaction with > potential abuse). > > That could possibly help. But I have found that it depends on individuals as well as whims and fancies of the consulate officers. This is true everywhere. What could possibly help is the list of docs needed + approximate time for processing. But that is a lot of work as these things keep on changing frequently (every couple of years). > -- find better ways to include people who can't travel to a venue. > This is, of course, useful beyond the visa issue. The visa issue > might be a reason to do something specific for a region, say, when > we have a meeting in the US, do something specific for people from > Pakistan. I have limited fantasy what that could be. For people > working in my region, I have sometimes wondered whether there is a > point convening regional mirror events. E.g., I could try to > assemble people "from" my region (work "from" here) that can't > travel abroad, in Bremen and run a parallel event with optimized > remote participation, local discussion etc. Hard to do for me > because I'm likely at the main IETF. But worth a thought. > Something that ISOC chapters could do, too. > > I think this is a good idea worth trying. I was thinking on similar lines to do this in the upcoming IETFs which I will attend remotely. > Just brainstorming, but maybe there is something useful here. > > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten > > --047d7b676442e13d0404db958b33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Carsten Bormann= <ca= bo@tzi.org> wrote:
On Apr 30, 2013, at 02:37, Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail.com> wrote:

> Got to live with it

There is not much we can do about the visa complexity at the IETF lev= el.

But we can do two things:

-- collect information about relative levels of complexities exhibited
=A0 =A0by different venues. =A0Right now I would guess (but don't know)= that
=A0 =A0it is easier for many to go to Canada than to the US. =A0But I have<= br> =A0 =A0no basis for that guess. =A0The IETF could ask its registrants (I =A0 =A0know, biased selection) to rate the visa complexity for each
=A0 =A0meeting. =A0We would need to find some objective scale, e.g., total<= br> =A0 =A0number of hours of work needed to obtain visa. =A0We would also be =A0 =A0interested in the number people who fail to obtain visa (there is =A0 =A0some sensitive data here, of course, and some interaction with
=A0 =A0potential abuse).


That could possibly help. But I have found that i= t depends on individuals as well as whims and fancies of the consulate offi= cers. This is true everywhere. What could possibly help is the list of docs= needed + approximate time for processing. But that is a lot of work as the= se things keep on changing frequently (every couple of years).
=A0
-- find better ways to include people who can't travel to a venue.
=A0 =A0This is, of course, useful beyond the visa issue. =A0The visa issue<= br> =A0 =A0might be a reason to do something specific for a region, say, when =A0 =A0we have a meeting in the US, do something specific for people from =A0 =A0Pakistan. =A0I have limited fantasy what that could be. =A0For peopl= e
=A0 =A0working in my region, I have sometimes wondered whether there is a =A0 =A0point convening regional mirror events. =A0E.g., I could try to
=A0 =A0assemble people "from" my region (work "from" he= re) that can't
=A0 =A0travel abroad, in Bremen and run a parallel event with optimized
=A0 =A0remote participation, local discussion etc. =A0Hard to do for me
=A0 =A0because I'm likely at the main IETF. =A0But worth a thought.
=A0 =A0Something that ISOC chapters could do, too.


I think this is a good idea worth trying. I was t= hinking on similar lines to do this in the upcoming IETFs which I will atte= nd remotely.
=A0
Just brainstorming, but maybe there is something useful here.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


--047d7b676442e13d0404db958b33-- From cabo@tzi.org Tue Apr 30 08:40:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C4521F9947 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04MhMMbj4afB for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96DB21F9B5E for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:40:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3UFe6YJ017085; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:40:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54893D76.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.61.118]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42D083F89; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:40:06 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:40:05 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9DBFF457-5A19-4A87-BF27-4F6BF1AFEA45@tzi.org> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> To: Vinayak Hegde X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: ericas@irtf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:40:26 -0000 On Apr 30, 2013, at 17:20, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > I think this is a good idea worth trying. I was thinking on similar = lines to do this in the upcoming IETFs which I will attend remotely. Managing the timezone issue will be fun. Making use of the = non-overlapping parts of the day for some local work may be one = approach. Remote participation via mirror meetings should not be limited to the = meeting slots. It might benefit from some "half-room walls": pairs of = cameras/projectors with some audio link. These should not be too hard to set up, and you would have hallway space = where main meeting attendees could "go to S=E3o Paulo" in the breaks. I'm sure the hosts of future meetings will be particularly interested to = have some walls, so this could be used to debug the technology. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From sm@elandsys.com Tue Apr 30 11:24:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0791121F9C02 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DOj6o1pnhL+K for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6288D21F9BC5 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3UIOUNR017698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367346282; bh=8Jpj1qsMf0aeg9ubChVDMNyrstEBpACfB/u6kSeroAM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=XhL2l3ykGQ7Hd+4fSNeC06LFhBMupqDaMpCX+B+HtjumlyT6SebFOVTrOKWN1omNO Ls4AykAywcDC253UaNLLhGB++L7nhHWllg1hFxENlKF5FAEzyOpFqPP/L5dQshlqaM dgNN0jBDRoDHpY07pcQjjzMyqrKgVzyyPidCcDDo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367346282; i=@elandsys.com; bh=8Jpj1qsMf0aeg9ubChVDMNyrstEBpACfB/u6kSeroAM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=04Rq45urwOCN90Xdzaj58K47Zs86lOv3EH6IMUwVLgmuCOz2loaCrDPFgbVEegTqq PLwhdr8FVksN5FaPOzrOVYMr9YQnZUd1kuJdzBJuLf9QzTGkN4paddLu2Ft/lD8O/O r09m3ah29h0yFG1LT218jd8RAo2c8K+ET4uYhW6U= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130430105641.0a7ec008@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:01:37 -0700 To: Carsten Bormann From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:24:48 -0000 Hi Carsten, At 02:28 30-04-2013, Carsten Bormann wrote: >There is not much we can do about the visa complexity at the IETF level. > >But we can do two things: I guess that you may have interacted with students from emerging regions on a daily basis and you are probably well-placed to understand their problems. Could you comment about that? Thanks, S. Moonesamy From sm@elandsys.com Tue Apr 30 11:24:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9270621F9C02 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3pEJOzr922eT for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1120621F9BC5 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3UIOUNT017698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:24:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367346286; bh=FcwK111juAoTDDTqfUUemLMtixisyby4+XazxSj65QQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=4LlEUERCbVnxgGLrU3qArpAQ1Ah4qbIMy+eOLQUP+8zgjq6gnUqq/M3ZJBE8t1etR a5VIGE974At0x368RQIZyX4ghAKXDw53qoHLSbCtFbZeju2eZ1zbc9PhtT7f3hgDCS Y+LZmmhUiD+yFgPBB0KOnjaSgJOCysb1EYEoDT+A= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367346286; i=@elandsys.com; bh=FcwK111juAoTDDTqfUUemLMtixisyby4+XazxSj65QQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=qNbxC/fxPWUHoLoVVJj4TMBgkQSXAPlUeFWzOi9MNbfvdb+LaVTGLK3w3pzk3B2Nm ndH0J5BFSBgUyOy0yUb7BaBGtRFq+c1+UZrrd8D2/pJySn8SJAsOO5d0KXH25QlWVO j9uShMECejSJtFNxY189D/8XWH4YZnamg4frlW0c= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130430110232.0a7ebec0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:10:35 -0700 To: Arturo Servin From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <517E7464.3040500@gmail.com> References: <517DCA88.6030603@gmail.com> <517DD1A5.30102@nomountain.net> <517DD43C.7070600@cs.tcd.ie> <517DD9E5.6090900@nomountain.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20130428225212.0ca2bae8@elandnews.com> <517E7464.3040500@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Alejandro Acosta Subject: Re: [ericas] Examples of Internet protocols not working well in emergent regions X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:24:48 -0000 Hi Arturo, At 06:23 29-04-2013, Arturo Servin wrote: > There are some RIPE Atlas probes in Latin America, possibly > some others >in Africa and Asia where we could get some data to compare with North >America and Europe. There are some RIPE Atlas probes in Africa. Alejandro has mentioned some of the challenges. It would be helpful if more people from emerging regions commented by posting a message to this mailing list. Regards, S. Moonesamy From alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Tue Apr 30 15:27:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE5421F9A69; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.073 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.073 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.227, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zCoX997bRQqs; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x236.google.com (mail-ie0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F3521F854E; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id bn7so1306665ieb.41 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-rim-org-msg-ref-id:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:reply-to:x-priority:references :in-reply-to:sensitivity:importance:subject:to:cc:from:date :content-type:mime-version; bh=dxo/1CFgZMsilNBS00DFLpRsdUoWIYBUE2k10erOhZg=; b=jfcYhp8OVuL4+6+ztT28QBtMqfXTuPffxAYFP5/iBCVZbx8DP2SNQZatTYGGCzL9+T ztSgJYv3LcxphtiurgnGdRRpcc2IJJGEE7L9gXFthWVKgHM3byVbteKO2GwiNekiVaDu GCVv/okwUtB7Omx3B4Sm4ojTFPX80MhckjCwXUqmuP2byIZccbXYkJUo96TLO/XK3egD 8KK0yoZyFzH6iMkg7INKRPPESbJLDWDjSgBXtZFlocnJ7Q3HxSY2npQO2aW6zXnre4cM DQ+z6u3uORdIIeYO9oETrItchKrqwY7vMIw9CYmr/7KsCZzZfB69o78UMM0hlk3QiKS3 6qRg== X-Received: by 10.50.110.104 with SMTP id hz8mr11284449igb.41.1367360871382; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.29.196.188 (bda-74-82-80-128.bis6.us.blackberry.com. [74.82.80.128]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f16sm463073igt.8.2013.04.30.15.27.50 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:27:50 -0700 (PDT) X-rim-org-msg-ref-id: 2126288892 Message-ID: <2126288892-1367360868-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-710645610-@b25.c3.bise6.blackberry> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: Normal References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130430105641.0a7ec008@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130430105641.0a7ec008@elandnews.com> Sensitivity: Normal Importance: Normal To: "S Moonesamy" , ericas-bounces@irtf.org, "Carsten Bormann" From: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 22:27:47 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 22:27:55 -0000 SGksDQogICBJIG1pZ2h0IGJlIHdyb25nIGJ1dCBlbWVyZ2luZyBjb3VudHJpZXMgdHJhZGl0aW9u YWxseSBoYXZlIGxlc3MgbGltaXRhdGlvbnMgZm9yIG1vc3QgcGFzc3BvcnQgaG9sZGVyLiANCiAg SSB3aXNoIHdlIGNvdWxkIHNlZSBzb21lIElFVEYgbWVldGluZyBpbiBMYXRhbSwgSSB0aGluayBT YW8gUGFvbG8gYW5kIENhbmN1biBhcmUgZ3JlYXQgb3B0aW9ucywgYm90aCBoYXZlIGdyZWF0IGhv dGVscyBhbmQgZ29vZCBJbnRlcm5ldCBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkgKGFtb25nIG90aGVycyBnb29kIHRo aW5ncykuIE9mIGNvdXJzZSBpbiBvdGhlciByZWdpb25zIHlvdSBjYW4gZmluZCBnb29kIHBsYWNl cyB0b28uDQogIEknbSBub3Qgc2F5aW5nIHRoYXQgYWxsIG1lZXRpbmdzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBpbiBz dWNoIGNpdGllcywgYnV0IGF0IGxlYXN0IG9uY2UgZXZlcnkgdGhyZWUgeWVhcnMgdG8gc3RhcnQg OikNCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpBbGVqYW5kcm8sDQoNCg0KDQoNCkVzdGUgbWVuc2FqZSBoYSBzaWRv IGVudmlhZG8gZ3JhY2lhcyBhbCBzZXJ2aWNpbyBCbGFja0JlcnJ5IGRlIE1vdmlsbmV0DQoNCi0t LS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBTIE1vb25lc2FteSA8c20raWV0ZkBlbGFu ZHN5cy5jb20+DQpTZW5kZXI6IGVyaWNhcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlydGYub3JnDQpEYXRlOiBUdWUsIDMw IEFwciAyMDEzIDExOjAxOjM3IA0KVG86IENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubjxjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+DQpD YzogPGVyaWNhc0BpcnRmLm9yZz47IFZpbmF5YWsgSGVnZGU8dmluYXlha2hAZ21haWwuY29tPg0K U3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtlcmljYXNdIFN0dWNrIGdldHRpbmcgdmlzYXMgZm9yIElFVEYgbWVldGlu Z3MNCg0KSGkgQ2Fyc3RlbiwNCkF0IDAyOjI4IDMwLTA0LTIwMTMsIENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiB3 cm90ZToNCj5UaGVyZSBpcyBub3QgbXVjaCB3ZSBjYW4gZG8gYWJvdXQgdGhlIHZpc2EgY29tcGxl eGl0eSBhdCB0aGUgSUVURiBsZXZlbC4NCj4NCj5CdXQgd2UgY2FuIGRvIHR3byB0aGluZ3M6DQoN CkkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhhdCB5b3UgbWF5IGhhdmUgaW50ZXJhY3RlZCB3aXRoIHN0dWRlbnRzIGZyb20g ZW1lcmdpbmcgDQpyZWdpb25zIG9uIGEgZGFpbHkgYmFzaXMgYW5kIHlvdSBhcmUgcHJvYmFibHkg d2VsbC1wbGFjZWQgdG8gDQp1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZWlyIHByb2JsZW1zLiAgQ291bGQgeW91IGNv bW1lbnQgYWJvdXQgdGhhdD8NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KUy4gTW9vbmVzYW15IA0KDQo= From sm@elandsys.com Tue Apr 30 16:48:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F5221F86FA for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uk7eILyxi36B for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E1C21F86F4 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3UNm2tX017585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:48:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1367365694; bh=7PfK2tsthvvFIw5zPoyxBnBmXFvPm51ZdDj5fAhlt7o=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:References; b=zaqB0RSXcEOzVTCwKxfrFwgpBIcgaoWK8WoRiQpyY6bZWv6N0yfYYd22EBwmyHnTd vqEJaghX0Jm9ZG6X3Mwfe9JgzPyT9QFzlQTTUoRASsmhc3Zse7BY4/oIlWReoGMzgr yUtqLJkv5a8ipckURkLp6P8IXKRBrFlt27jtvULE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1367365694; i=@elandsys.com; bh=7PfK2tsthvvFIw5zPoyxBnBmXFvPm51ZdDj5fAhlt7o=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:References; b=o2AlhnW65VVdW9UNu+hDwIguC0AqwqipSfxVUCf/CgJHwr+dDqMhkFKnLhFrbwErD TPFb99oeUf+LrPjz/iCyL7jM4RFYp/6a9swwlOplUzZttsdJSanTpyCaRr7NqIba2S 8VYuOpgY2Ta8LwFFzdg5jEDKLnjfvd4FT6RQPWPI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130430154123.0d6be5c0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:04:51 -0700 To: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com From: S Moonesamy References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130428234454.06a3c160@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130430105641.0a7ec008@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [ericas] Stuck getting visas for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 23:48:22 -0000 Hi Alejandro, At 15:27 30-04-2013, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com wrote: > I might be wrong but emerging countries traditionally have less > limitations for most passport holder. I don't think that you are wrong. > I wish we could see some IETF meeting in Latam, I think Sao Paolo > and Cancun are great options, both have great hotels and good > Internet connectivity (among others good things). Of course in > other regions you can find good places too. > I'm not saying that all meetings should be in such cities, but at > least once every three years to start :) I would like to see a meeting in South America (and India :-)). I understand why it was not possible previously. It might help if there were a little more comments from South America. Regards, S> Moonesamy