From lars@netapp.com Mon Jun 10 13:43:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC1921F9AB1 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:43:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.093 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.494, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gk26aNI8Ffua for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx11.netapp.com (mx11.netapp.com [216.240.18.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7758521F9AB0 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,840,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="24069239" Received: from vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) by mx11-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2013 13:43:04 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.208]) by vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:43:04 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "" Thread-Topic: Applications open for ISOC Fellowship to IETF 88 (Vancouver) Thread-Index: AQHOZhYCCReSAmN6XUe0eODyePIY0w== Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 20:43:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1465184ACFABB44AAEBC91F88DF5851B@hq.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ericas] Fwd: Applications open for ISOC Fellowship to IETF 88 (Vancouver) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 20:43:13 -0000 Begin forwarded message: > From: Steve Conte > Subject: Applications open for ISOC Fellowship to IETF 88 (Vancouver) > Date: June 10, 2013 16:06:34 EDT > To: "ietf@ietf.org" >=20 > Dear Colleagues, >=20 > The Internet Society has announced that it is inviting applications for i= ts latest Internet Society Fellowships to the IETF. The Fellowship program= me allows engineers from emerging and developing economies to attend an Int= ernet Engineering Task Force (IETF) meeting. >=20 > As you know, the IETF is the Internet's premier standards-making body, re= sponsible for the development of protocols used in IP-based networks. IETF = participants represent an international community of network designers, ope= rators, vendors, and researchers involved in the technical operation of the= Internet and the continuing evolution of Internet architecture. >=20 > Fellowships will be awarded through a competitive application process. Th= e Internet Society is currently accepting fellowship applications for the I= ETF 88 in Vancouver, Canada: >=20 > * IETF 88, November 03-08, 2013, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada >=20 > Information and links to apply can be found at: http://www.internetsociet= y.org/fellows-ietf >=20 > Fellowship applications are due by 05 July 2013. >=20 > I encourage you apply or pass this information about this program to indi= viduals involved in your network that have a keen interest in the Internet = protocol development activities of the IETF. >=20 > The Internet Society Fellowships to the IETF are sponsored by Afilias, SI= DN, Google, Microsoft, and Verisign. >=20 > If you have questions, please do not hesitate to contact Steve Conte . >=20 > Kind Regards, >=20 > Steve Conte >=20 > ----- > Steve Conte > Internet Leadership Programme > The Internet Society > conte@isoc.org >=20 From sm@elandsys.com Sun Jun 16 11:35:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59EBE21F9B10 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SsCuyxg6BVJt for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51B221F9B09 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.232.213]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5GIYqVR026227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371407704; bh=lCPdv1WHikLjW/DYje4jUqDDhwe9BM/q5++KXxTm81M=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=ZIl9JdU5tfPBuR1zYvFxxw8pK/Jkh8lrutgONVcGgNIM+q9RuUK8HC5qS6qkD7co6 Np8+8rpfag6Piq1G0+Y3hYQFlQqCM0DuPKVYsNgoyKJW5Q8PiyQDeT9LRGgVZziaZs Km2oYDKIAb6ZqJKdTF9PJ4MtuuQlN4fhTxGQg+h8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371407704; i=@elandsys.com; bh=lCPdv1WHikLjW/DYje4jUqDDhwe9BM/q5++KXxTm81M=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=jfyBK3YIMer/VBgfwIJdLJDLDbHEBvslV6SkItlPr6jy8zBUmUL/hF74pJePEn88g cj6K+aIFfJxVSOAgitxR4+BmI+MT6s8KbwGpZPde2aQgdDlJ0y6i/BAbjGojJJWEwD uNLshlk0W0rmbMGxUb6B8fuAz7Q6styfCHFaQkrA= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 11:22:41 -0700 To: Jari Arkko From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:35:07 -0000 Hi Jari, The Tao of the IETF is supposed to be a novice's guide to the IETF. I thought of this suggestion where the IESG can show that it is serious about welcoming new people into the IETF and helping them understand how the IETF works. The IESG chooses a team of four editors where: - one person speaks Mandarin - one person speaks Japanese - one person speaks Portuguese or Spanish - one person speaks one of the official European languages, excluding English, Portuguese or Spanish. - the persons selected should have posted a message which the IESG considers as relevant to the ietf@ietf.org during the current year. The task of the team would be to update the Tao before December 25, 2013. The changes to the Tao should gain the agreement of the IETF Community. Regards, S. Moonesamy From alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Sun Jun 16 13:09:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7813521F9D05; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:09:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qrzXjIG0pbGw; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5421F9D04; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id aq17so5311995iec.36 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:09:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-rim-org-msg-ref-id:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:reply-to :x-priority:references:in-reply-to:sensitivity:importance:subject:to :cc:from:date:content-type:mime-version; bh=Pm397c2N7caAV6UaR2uhLowRenWaVVzZwOWp4nXOm2s=; b=DFI2gbQkSgWJy0P5q3vAswN0h0OM+3F0nHjTT0laVjZEowa/z0nTF6cSivnlYT8e6W sGRt+UQJZgEDI2DxEIuPjl0o7aUE/HJdKd3ii8CdN8sBoft+J4IfmJdeSlazgckceW+x Ej9+eoQY1BjdnaDd7lGHFIceJ5rGlhJhxNzXlpTpQi/kFCjAsWRWVZ2s2TB9vqDhSqcj VrsG9sDC0qiXtD60Vc+GnkcfMs/YpbzKjEzUUSUPWeF52DtyjP36+TYVnIlpwJuxhorT RttOtp/NKM4qRdfLwhxBTNB5GVfSoVX4bPmmDZ/+nZHsh/winmJInZimvWM/pMxonIQo SRQA== X-Received: by 10.50.87.71 with SMTP id v7mr3450569igz.29.1371413340972; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.29.196.190 (bda-74-82-80-161.bis6.us.blackberry.com. [74.82.80.161]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id x10sm13570375igl.3.2013.06.16.13.08.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT) X-rim-org-msg-ref-id: 1580961553 Message-ID: <1580961553-1371413338-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-51081400-@b17.c3.bise6.blackberry> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: Normal References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> Sensitivity: Normal Importance: Normal To: "S Moonesamy" , ericas-bounces@irtf.org, "Jari Arkko" From: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:08:59 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:09:05 -0000 SGkgU00sIEphcmksDQogIE5pY2UgdG8gaGVhciBhYm91dCB0aGlzLCBJIHdhc24ndCBhd2FyZSBv ZiBpdC4NCiAgU29ycnkgZm9yIG15IGR1bW15IHF1ZXN0aW9uLCB3aGVyZSBzaG91bGQgd2Ugc2Vu ZCBjb21tZW50cy9zdWdnZXN0aW9uIGFib3V0IHRoaXM/LiANCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpBbGVqYW5k cm8sDQoNCg0KRXN0ZSBtZW5zYWplIGhhIHNpZG8gZW52aWFkbyBncmFjaWFzIGFsIHNlcnZpY2lv IEJsYWNrQmVycnkgZGUgTW92aWxuZXQNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZy b206IFMgTW9vbmVzYW15IDxzbStpZXRmQGVsYW5kc3lzLmNvbT4NClNlbmRlcjogZXJpY2FzLWJv dW5jZXNAaXJ0Zi5vcmcNCkRhdGU6IFN1biwgMTYgSnVuIDIwMTMgMTE6MjI6NDEgDQpUbzogSmFy aSBBcmtrbzxqYXJpLmFya2tvQHBpdWhhLm5ldD4NCkNjOiA8ZXJpY2FzQGlydGYub3JnPg0KU3Vi amVjdDogW2VyaWNhc10gQSBzdWdnZXN0aW9uIGZvciB0aGUgVGFvIG9mIHRoZSBJRVRGDQoNCkhp IEphcmksDQoNClRoZSBUYW8gb2YgdGhlIElFVEYgaXMgc3VwcG9zZWQgdG8gYmUgYSBub3ZpY2Un cyBndWlkZSB0byB0aGUgDQpJRVRGLiAgSSB0aG91Z2h0IG9mIHRoaXMgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiB3aGVy ZSB0aGUgSUVTRyBjYW4gc2hvdyB0aGF0IGl0IA0KaXMgc2VyaW91cyBhYm91dCB3ZWxjb21pbmcg bmV3IHBlb3BsZSBpbnRvIHRoZSBJRVRGIGFuZCBoZWxwaW5nIHRoZW0gDQp1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGhv dyB0aGUgSUVURiB3b3Jrcy4NCg0KVGhlIElFU0cgY2hvb3NlcyBhIHRlYW0gb2YgZm91ciBlZGl0 b3JzIHdoZXJlOg0KDQogICAtIG9uZSBwZXJzb24gc3BlYWtzIE1hbmRhcmluDQogICAtIG9uZSBw ZXJzb24gc3BlYWtzIEphcGFuZXNlDQogICAtIG9uZSBwZXJzb24gc3BlYWtzIFBvcnR1Z3Vlc2Ug b3IgU3BhbmlzaA0KICAgLSBvbmUgcGVyc29uIHNwZWFrcyBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIG9mZmljaWFsIEV1 cm9wZWFuIGxhbmd1YWdlcywNCiAgICAgZXhjbHVkaW5nIEVuZ2xpc2gsIFBvcnR1Z3Vlc2Ugb3Ig U3BhbmlzaC4NCiAgIC0gdGhlIHBlcnNvbnMgc2VsZWN0ZWQgc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgcG9zdGVkIGEg bWVzc2FnZSB3aGljaCB0aGUgSUVTRyBjb25zaWRlcnMNCiAgICAgYXMgcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8gdGhl IGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmcgZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHllYXIuDQoNClRoZSB0YXNrIG9mIHRo ZSB0ZWFtIHdvdWxkIGJlIHRvIHVwZGF0ZSB0aGUgVGFvIGJlZm9yZSBEZWNlbWJlciAyNSwgDQoy MDEzLiAgVGhlIGNoYW5nZXMgdG8gdGhlIFRhbyBzaG91bGQgZ2FpbiB0aGUgYWdyZWVtZW50IG9m IHRoZSBJRVRGIENvbW11bml0eS4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNClMuIE1vb25lc2FteQ0KDQo= From juliao@braga.eti.br Sun Jun 16 14:08:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5201321F9CAB for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jx-y8tTd30lh for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x230.google.com (mail-ve0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A846C21F9CA0 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f176.google.com with SMTP id c13so1603562vea.21 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:08:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-gm-message-state; bh=oCOjcttKHmrSJ85THnLgqGcrTzoKQL4JiH49qZchZK4=; b=FQh9LOuHhgvsaqAnSkn+HHAMz58r8NJomGoOCBFc5oOIewjsA1/KvJsK/sbrn9mNud Z3Kvjd3HLEh7ieKR4V1YOAqLRCum4DpnmEKzdgOpdrAK4tpMAYSwTfnCv/zzMSV+C2+6 zsribhPwsfS0zySc/+ZODShfOfA9XN26uxsverIkztWMKDUt+01OJbgOg5GvFOPhrNJO 5uZBZD00Ch37G7b4Htce2vob1cm+8mY7rGlJquI8LbiQBXOo9vxRIdh/EDDGo8FKPlGJ OIv3HSYqRcPArnfapwH1LEoLxDSoC9l73vo1bSq+3yAPMtn7MEttuGNiymh8gagPOIbY 1ACw== X-Received: by 10.52.97.3 with SMTP id dw3mr2844094vdb.91.1371416921383; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:1294:1295:1295::167? ([2001:1294:1295:1295::167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id x4sm509065vdg.11.2013.06.16.14.08.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51BE2954.9020005@braga.eti.br> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:36 -0300 From: Juliao Braga User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <1580961553-1371413338-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-51081400-@b17.c3.bise6.blackberry> In-Reply-To: <1580961553-1371413338-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-51081400-@b17.c3.bise6.blackberry> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkLGHGcinUSTD6beGkuHqOflEr6ZUSBXrzgy6maO7o394HF3JfMMHyC4nmb2tNrtphIwHqf Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 21:08:43 -0000 Hi SM, When you reply to Alejandro (which I am interested, too), please reply us on what the goals of the lists "ericas" and "diversity." I'm a bit confused about this and would like to invite people here from Brazil to attend both. Thank you, Julião Em 16/06/2013 17:08, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com escreveu: > Hi SM, Jari, > Nice to hear about this, I wasn't aware of it. > Sorry for my dummy question, where should we send comments/suggestion about this?. > > Thanks, > > Alejandro, From sm@elandsys.com Sun Jun 16 14:55:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A04421F9B00 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Fpic0QdQF4l for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B39821F9AD1 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.232.213]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5GLtWws002040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:55:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371419745; bh=TKLELON1AoyqjnFcfX2EhgMOLBE3Xa/YOtZ32sq+rbE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:References; b=NKCwC84IYOQvUOW5TcGeSKhUV+Jw3xNp2OFxDRGfFdJertRr4V7nEE3n+IiTk5fTW Ksp0ACl383Q73AvgtmSPiuCtgg/T+boIeEa0Wyu4M+9EKHxPzc0iAWRS0iG1AMhkvg IsQUH+w7cCkvZTtB71OJixFs24c35mEVNSF2J3T4= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371419745; i=@elandsys.com; bh=TKLELON1AoyqjnFcfX2EhgMOLBE3Xa/YOtZ32sq+rbE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:References; b=s5uRjFpk8hPemX3fMAxMqjZ0X3cauVmoJ9Q1bIP0/9H6wJLm3EmH5dmNQygPABB0o fYlBIkZz0zxeskoYByDmv3rl52xmEwCHBHticm3Rt+8KimnhzwapMwiLyP4C7rvivM psvl4yNtAg6Hq/E3XxRgL3V8pV55Thx1rdyvjroo= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:53:18 -0700 To: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com, Juliao Braga From: S Moonesamy References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 21:55:51 -0000 At 13:08 16-06-2013, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com wrote: > Nice to hear about this, I wasn't aware of it. > Sorry for my dummy question, where should we=20 > send comments/suggestion about this?. I don't think that it is a dummy question.=20 :-) If I understood correctly the=20 comment/suggestion would be about the suggestion I made about editing the= Tao. The comments/suggestions could be sent to=20 iesg@ietf.org which is the email address of the=20 IESG. The message could be copied to the ericas=20 mailing list if you would like people who not=20 members of the IESG to comment about your comments/suggestions. Juli=E3o asked about the goals of the "ericas" and=20 "diversity" mailing lists. The ericas mailing=20 list was set up to provide a discussion forum=20 about the various challenges the Internet is=20 facing in emerging regions, and share experiences=20 and proposals to successfully address some of=20 those challenges. The diversity mailing list was=20 set up to obtain feedback from the IETF community=20 about the work of the diversity design=20 team. That work is about identifying diversity=20 related issues that the IETF faces and making=20 practical recommendations that can help in that regard. What follows is my personal opinion. Please do=20 not assume that the IESG or the IETF agrees with=20 what I am wrote. The ericas mailing list is=20 specifically for emerging regions. A problem=20 that affects Brazil might be related to=20 diversity. If it does not affect Europe, for=20 example, I would say that it could be discussed on the ericas mailing list. Note that there isn't a good description of what=20 "diversity" means at the moment. One alternative=20 could be about identifying the problems where=20 there are possible solutions and then decide=20 whether they fit within the goals which I=20 mentioned above. What I would like to suggest is=20 not to have restrictions which might make it=20 difficult for people from emerging regions to have discussions. Regards, S. Moonesamy=20 From juliao@braga.eti.br Sun Jun 16 18:08:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A947621F9DA7 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lpUNR-hJHzrD for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ye0-f172.google.com (mail-ye0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F6221F9DBF for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ye0-f172.google.com with SMTP id l13so789456yen.31 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-gm-message-state; bh=OuglAzfzcwyY6bhYC9AwUrT6jHug2aENx2gfUWQOct8=; b=alKwuVt/FcswFaUMbVlU9qVOvvZMxWcoP+fdT3m04QAkseWnzwhmte7f6eUFLEvZmN mQRkjQREvjy7+PHmN5+RSu+qxZzHO4tF9dPuR/RD7KRe6LsQkSvvnUdfEmP8Hza5Xdjb vWCqylJtwwa0bkVD6Y2rV4sq51K6cfNlsRk8UME8Ou759NQwpJMxDNNWE5K0K92XGG+b 2IWla7imC8CaAvTHh+p7XprDFTOsLgCmjTbG6nLhXv8fJjsYDJSqtNzhlNbxsTWchH0p 1Sq/zez3i1HmdphOaGEw8i5w7m1Qkyibrlp5fxzNRCR134L/GNcT0pd+D+JPE1hSyK38 wQlA== X-Received: by 10.236.151.33 with SMTP id a21mr6893464yhk.0.1371431318711; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:1294:1295:1295::167? ([2001:1294:1295:1295::167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id t70sm21128045yhk.27.2013.06.16.18.08.36 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51BE6191.50507@braga.eti.br> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:08:33 -0300 From: Juliao Braga User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkI8qxWCOR+8L7F2fBv7KSTpVsBPgrlZV0sRVaDv4Jj3L4ZrbJBOFqwKkw7wIfLEDYOetyX Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:08:49 -0000 Thanks SM, it is now clear to me. :) Julião Em 16/06/2013 18:53, S Moonesamy escreveu: > The ericas mailing list was set up to provide a discussion forum about > the various challenges the Internet is facing in emerging regions, and > share experiences and proposals to successfully address some of those > challenges. The diversity mailing list was set up to obtain feedback > from the IETF community about the work of the diversity design team. > That work is about identifying diversity related issues that the IETF > faces and making practical recommendations that can help in that regard. > > What follows is my personal opinion. Please do not assume that the IESG > or the IETF agrees with what I am wrote. The ericas mailing list is > specifically for emerging regions. A problem that affects Brazil might > be related to diversity. If it does not affect Europe, for example, I > would say that it could be discussed on the ericas mailing list. > > Note that there isn't a good description of what "diversity" means at > the moment. One alternative could be about identifying the problems > where there are possible solutions and then decide whether they fit > within the goals which I mentioned above. What I would like to suggest > is not to have restrictions which might make it difficult for people > from emerging regions to have discussions. From rlb@ipv.sx Mon Jun 17 20:35:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F5121F8F29 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:35:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.425 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.425 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RuLxfUmLpfcG for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x233.google.com (mail-oa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E2721F8F7B for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id i4so4373910oah.24 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=UuZjHYUaWNCS8b2UdHp3LGVHlIePfhGqphhMo+leEnY=; b=YYZW1DlaN1yWdozgeXNl9T0f+wheeQFqiCykch3KyfkRKZbTJLvevCIy6lPYxz0qsv X1H6gzzteNbH8XVIG5/hExmroV4uNw99jONGliDaMtrAiWgnHO9BBfXCEfmTcJvYQKk6 KdsHinjwoK9xi8lb/MTS06nfqX/zovYSI6Uxn9iovrpwg3BB6ZXesFEcuz7msElKoklB aLUlCb8Vd+4TjVDjn9Gxwwu88kxAMJNREz3QWTLM4PFaLzICB0E6cabAB1dxTNIH0nwn eKPH/TPyEVJxwrmKOINaAejmePY1ZsTh589vIOfHUGAZqBtbdGiqBsRjk1tsNy8w6pMJ 1uYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.43.232 with SMTP id z8mr10675712oel.138.1371526538383; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.26.135 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [12.104.13.2] In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 23:35:38 -0400 Message-ID: From: Richard Barnes To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113311fc1ee36604df6568cf X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQncB5tZl4Ut7EJfWCvF2lNCq4lHfleqcd+lCIPa8Cow6s9Wdd314h/1jYZSQlfPFFYxvVS4 Cc: Jari Arkko , Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:35:43 -0000 --001a113311fc1ee36604df6568cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are at least a couple of IESG members on this list ;) SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these multilingual editors would be. Could you clarify? There's already a list of translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be made more prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phrase "list of translations", which means people have to recognize that phrase instead of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. Are you thinking that these editors would contribute to the list of translations, or edit the English version to be more readable to native speakers of other languages? Thanks, --Richard [1] On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:53 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > At 13:08 16-06-2013, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com wrote: > >> Nice to hear about this, I wasn't aware of it. >> Sorry for my dummy question, where should we send comments/suggestion >> about this?. >> > > I don't think that it is a dummy question. :-) If I understood correctly > the comment/suggestion would be about the suggestion I made about editing > the Tao. > > The comments/suggestions could be sent to iesg@ietf.org which is the > email address of the IESG. The message could be copied to the ericas > mailing list if you would like people who not members of the IESG to > comment about your comments/suggestions. > > Juli=E3o asked about the goals of the "ericas" and "diversity" mailing > lists. The ericas mailing list was set up to provide a discussion forum > about the various challenges the Internet is facing in emerging regions, > and share experiences and proposals to successfully address some of those > challenges. The diversity mailing list was set up to obtain feedback fro= m > the IETF community about the work of the diversity design team. That wor= k > is about identifying diversity related issues that the IETF faces and > making practical recommendations that can help in that regard. > > What follows is my personal opinion. Please do not assume that the IESG > or the IETF agrees with what I am wrote. The ericas mailing list is > specifically for emerging regions. A problem that affects Brazil might b= e > related to diversity. If it does not affect Europe, for example, I would > say that it could be discussed on the ericas mailing list. > > Note that there isn't a good description of what "diversity" means at the > moment. One alternative could be about identifying the problems where > there are possible solutions and then decide whether they fit within the > goals which I mentioned above. What I would like to suggest is not to ha= ve > restrictions which might make it difficult for people from emerging regio= ns > to have discussions. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > --001a113311fc1ee36604df6568cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are at least a couple of IESG members on this list ;= )

SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these= multilingual editors would be. =A0Could you clarify? =A0There's alread= y a list of translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be ma= de more prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phrase= "list of translations", which means people have to recognize tha= t phrase instead of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. =A0Are you thinking= that these editors would contribute to the list of translations, or edit t= he English version to be more readable to native speakers of other language= s?

Thanks,
--Richard




On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:53 PM, S Moone= samy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
At 13:08 16-06-2013, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com wrote:
=A0 Nice to hear about this, I wasn't aware of it.
=A0 Sorry for my dummy question, where should we send comments/suggestion a= bout this?.

I don't think that it is a dummy question. :-) =A0If I understood corre= ctly the comment/suggestion would be about the suggestion I made about edit= ing the Tao.

The comments/suggestions could be sent to iesg@ietf.org which is the email address of the IESG.= =A0The message could be copied to the ericas mailing list if you would lik= e people who not members of the IESG to comment about your comments/suggest= ions.

Juli=E3o asked about the goals of the "ericas" and "diversit= y" mailing lists. =A0The ericas mailing list was set up to provide a d= iscussion forum about the various challenges the Internet is facing in emer= ging regions, and share experiences and proposals to successfully address s= ome of those challenges. =A0The diversity mailing list was set up to obtain= feedback from the IETF community about the work of the diversity design te= am. =A0That work is about identifying diversity related issues that the IET= F faces and making practical recommendations that can help in that regard.<= br>
What follows is my personal opinion. =A0Please do not assume that the IESG = or the IETF agrees with what I am wrote. =A0The ericas mailing list is spec= ifically for emerging regions. =A0A problem that affects Brazil might be re= lated to diversity. =A0If it does not affect Europe, for example, I would s= ay that it could be discussed on the ericas mailing list.

Note that there isn't a good description of what "diversity" = means at the moment. =A0One alternative could be about identifying the prob= lems where there are possible solutions and then decide whether they fit wi= thin the goals which I mentioned above. =A0What I would like to suggest is = not to have restrictions which might make it difficult for people from emer= ging regions to have discussions.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

--001a113311fc1ee36604df6568cf-- From jari.arkko@piuha.net Tue Jun 18 01:08:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A16E21F9D21 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id waWMDSbVRvGS for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936F321F9D14 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C222CC53; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:08:14 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pHEDVRxC2qHJ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:08:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66212CC3C; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:08:12 +0300 (EEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:08:12 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E9AC16B-2017-48D2-9350-DA8824401B6B@piuha.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> To: Richard Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: Jari Arkko , Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:08:23 -0000 I had the same questions=85 Jari On Jun 18, 2013, at 6:35 AM, Richard Barnes wrote: > There are at least a couple of IESG members on this list ;) >=20 > SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these multilingual = editors would be. Could you clarify? There's already a list of = translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be made more = prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phrase "list of = translations", which means people have to recognize that phrase instead = of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. Are you thinking that these = editors would contribute to the list of translations, or edit the = English version to be more readable to native speakers of other = languages? >=20 > Thanks, > --Richard >=20 > [1] >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:53 PM, S Moonesamy = wrote: > At 13:08 16-06-2013, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com wrote: > Nice to hear about this, I wasn't aware of it. > Sorry for my dummy question, where should we send = comments/suggestion about this?. >=20 > I don't think that it is a dummy question. :-) If I understood = correctly the comment/suggestion would be about the suggestion I made = about editing the Tao. >=20 > The comments/suggestions could be sent to iesg@ietf.org which is the = email address of the IESG. The message could be copied to the ericas = mailing list if you would like people who not members of the IESG to = comment about your comments/suggestions. >=20 > Juli=E3o asked about the goals of the "ericas" and "diversity" mailing = lists. The ericas mailing list was set up to provide a discussion forum = about the various challenges the Internet is facing in emerging regions, = and share experiences and proposals to successfully address some of = those challenges. The diversity mailing list was set up to obtain = feedback from the IETF community about the work of the diversity design = team. That work is about identifying diversity related issues that the = IETF faces and making practical recommendations that can help in that = regard. >=20 > What follows is my personal opinion. Please do not assume that the = IESG or the IETF agrees with what I am wrote. The ericas mailing list = is specifically for emerging regions. A problem that affects Brazil = might be related to diversity. If it does not affect Europe, for = example, I would say that it could be discussed on the ericas mailing = list. >=20 > Note that there isn't a good description of what "diversity" means at = the moment. One alternative could be about identifying the problems = where there are possible solutions and then decide whether they fit = within the goals which I mentioned above. What I would like to suggest = is not to have restrictions which might make it difficult for people = from emerging regions to have discussions. >=20 > Regards, > S. Moonesamy=20 >=20 From sm@elandsys.com Tue Jun 18 02:49:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB5621F9B64 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 02:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xla3Mu3yOUqU for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 02:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B9321F9B58 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 02:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.159.140]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5I9mswN021888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 02:49:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371548949; bh=VGY4Eeuamu1kSnGyD8dd9gYbJwOsIhOJ7y85TQ0SsqY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=uHMCtGj1/s4X6wFdpjZWYO7FZjmkcl+MZkcGn0/J7/HxfJS0X+8GdtO1l6P7vMIRv zRuokXW5CnM46cwPKxwmVmNuGt0NBw8AKdDeQsg+DMYI+47ndBIlARZbfYXjhjWLQA VdIyjOVD+GCWu3b77joZ6nNBf0dcSXSd4XPNqXkY= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371548949; i=@elandsys.com; bh=VGY4Eeuamu1kSnGyD8dd9gYbJwOsIhOJ7y85TQ0SsqY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=3laki5lpGFMdWBQqQye8Q3jo3VX2X0tC/EdyNBHguuREe2zfTto58ILFhGZGBzXe1 +m+0OqIzc5eMiSdpFoQYqioJ13yey1chQzi2pF5dcSBJ7zZ4VToiG5824tWv3EwWdi q5ZkQ1fGMORUQv/6A5fjAFgipJB03BSzVKhJ2/W4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 02:40:46 -0700 To: Richard Barnes From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Jari Arkko , Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:49:22 -0000 Hi Richard, At 20:35 17-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: >SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these multilingual >editors would be. Could you clarify? There's already a list of >translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be made more >prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phrase >"list of translations", which means people have to recognize that >phrase instead of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. Are you >thinking that these editors would contribute to the list of >translations, or edit the English version to be more readable to >native speakers of other languages? My suggestion is about having the four editors (see my previous message about this) edit the English version of the Tao. I intentionally did not define any goals as I believe that the members of the IESG have enough experience to know that this is not about selecting four people who do not usually speak English to say that the IETF is an international organization. I expect these editors to suggest changes in a language which can be clearly understood by everyone in the IETF no matter which language the person speaks. I expect these editors to understand that there is a deadline and not delivering the work is a failure. I expect these editors to understand that changes cannot be done without the agreement of the IETF Community. What I suggested is not, in my opinion, an easy task for the IESG as the IETF Community might ask the same questions as you did. You could tell the IETF Community that: (a) The IETF is not an organization in true mess with endless arguments; (b) The IESG is listening to people from emerging regions instead of pretending to listen. I would tell the editors that, in my opinion, what they are volunteering to do is not an easy task. The editors would have to learn to work together. I would tell the editors that it is better not to write things which do not make sense to them. Regards, S. Moonesamy From arturo.servin@gmail.com Tue Jun 18 03:03:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A55021F9B01 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:03:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pYxNnQO5LhD8 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f182.google.com (mail-pd0-f182.google.com [209.85.192.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD0621F9AA8 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f182.google.com with SMTP id r10so3727429pdi.41 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E3MxXLCqzELEReK9flSTMYpqnvbMyjWDEtszNHDN4Q4=; b=xsT+wFN5mJ0YjTC1tWFWdxl6d+78WfJ1jBGW6QlASw21hiJVaT8QarKdeVmj5t6zaR olzxE3a5RI4vH1tyoKwHvzqV1GRwXMq1czldeTcbGZmGHKZnIE8lAsXi6te1kfolbpSi O4HE345qBsnbCx9WIWbN56FBeCVqitcrxtWytzBYeAQrWIolAdZ+NqRwJKZt/Q39EUvP evjP0dpOtzCvbmf4YKaleTxzB2RQiQnjcHzoVXgUVl9fkR3pjKRZ8yOTx+jJ5FBCD0K/ D3Ar5axq5TfCEgcmbO8qSH7mZdbvL4WfmCw7mBTsWF/ZMZG1bMtgLph8Drw48JzZTwj6 IBaw== X-Received: by 10.66.97.46 with SMTP id dx14mr1404530pab.190.1371549823354; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local (110-170-171-184.static.asianet.co.th. [110.170.171.184]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ve3sm3928630pbc.14.2013.06.18.03.03.40 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:03:38 +0700 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S Moonesamy References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Richard Barnes , alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com, Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:03:50 -0000 SM On 6/18/13 4:40 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Richard, > At 20:35 17-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: >> SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these multilingual >> editors would be. Could you clarify? There's already a list of >> translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be made more >> prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phrase "list >> of translations", which means people have to recognize that phrase >> instead of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. Are you thinking that >> these editors would contribute to the list of translations, or edit >> the English version to be more readable to native speakers of other >> languages? > > My suggestion is about having the four editors (see my previous message > about this) edit the English version of the Tao. I intentionally did > not define any goals as I believe that the members of the IESG have > enough experience to know that this is not about selecting four people > who do not usually speak English to say that the IETF is an > international organization. > Well, I think that then your goal then is like "document cleaning" of non-standard language in the Tao. Isn't it? Regards, /as From jabley@hopcount.ca Tue Jun 18 04:57:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312FF21F9CCA for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IFKE+uIu0AM1 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f174.google.com (mail-pd0-f174.google.com [209.85.192.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3251521F9BD1 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 10so3827320pdc.33 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:57:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopcount.ca; s=google; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=FOJPhtjommajSs7S6ECKDin7i8LHuoFvCSLeEuV2RzY=; b=OSEVH9tFZi6hC9qq0vNkN7bJ5Oo6UvC15bN4uA4uB7/rMRsLqSq9KvaR2e+r0tO4y8 Gqc6rhsxrPwocjLshkC7/Ri+zZ4DhmMPFxRyQtKfAA6O8ozQdhL+gg5jxnbOTM4m+Jv3 Ncrt6F512BeJLOpv3tGLTpv8hqU1EX8Dj/pP0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=FOJPhtjommajSs7S6ECKDin7i8LHuoFvCSLeEuV2RzY=; b=axxatPseSmQiGTHJuVLmWv+UamYUKAW6CoyLthc/YFQwrmEb5YdbEFLkEmaTziLb8/ eHSskZSMDfO19FSoOsyDBqJKUYbFYcar7i5UYTBAZynqy9kInlFXIaPFGTmnJWhqU2Xt DD4wJ6CYAukTCRwEmausgu8evSWpmJGoDE9tj0Vxk1fHGNk8F9SrLPOkgdeISI8I1STv 910wAQMDolNO0lNR5/zgv04l4P2Fse90NAhmdYYLlKkshBBIUJNg7FUfGt4qnoticG7T mwsiAX3tdBdZDlh7qRnHnFcL9Vh9SE+ql5az08Yq1e/NGFrnso4W679apVeftDc6GzU1 eFPg== X-Received: by 10.66.82.162 with SMTP id j2mr1841555pay.168.1371556669812; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dh30.r1.hopcount.ca (dh30.r1.hopcount.ca. [199.212.90.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id wi6sm17979549pbc.22.2013.06.18.04.57.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:57:45 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> To: S Moonesamy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm+v+QuX3z7rDTQaDDNClqysaS64SHoanvXEPh14euZUWmZZwJjEdGeu9CILbiqK92tKlcL Cc: Richard Barnes , alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com, Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:57:55 -0000 On 2013-06-18, at 05:40, S Moonesamy wrote: > My suggestion is about having the four editors (see my previous = message about this) edit the English version of the Tao. With respect, if there is concern about the clarity of the language used = in the Tao for international speakers, it makes more sense to recruit = reviewers whose first language is not English, not authors. There is a reason why interpreters working in environments where clarity = is important tend to interpret into their native language, rather into a = language they did not grow up with. Joe= From rlb@ipv.sx Tue Jun 18 07:28:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC5F21F9D36 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:28:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.425 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.425 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id seBxKGjGcvwl for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22a.google.com (mail-ob0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DDA21F9B94 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id ef5so4690244obb.15 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=oy9J6yynDyDHN764h/alD8fs6TypNvT8/jwJe0UxnRE=; b=mFZ1u5FdF0lAnm0cgdXQOLjtcs5BZQP2+XlqnrOf+wyxYVvJwQJs2UNnCa2wYAHpQU SvS5X3wRLLOhVcIAIHadDlR+94wdrB+LwEc7CitJZUEzhmrbcyx65zTxZwsN69mN68LE Zbe+PNBPq0+cFeaOW61c/sfQTXpgsRTuJ5Zh5QtnEqpVWWAacgp4GzSRgY8Wx6Bqw6mt WynLCojA65fQ6f0mU+fA2u89zpaRQyuxBdqYUWsnEOlasYPIC7jCFwI6trcvj3Z2Pjdz rMiV9QZ+AIT9e0HWAMIReKUyX0W1RESPTbXQfKhbq2e7sWyLNoIXMtjTeIBDlOBQ8ilB Z46w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.237.77 with SMTP id va13mr12352913obc.65.1371565680560; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.26.135 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [128.33.85.80] In-Reply-To: <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:28:00 -0400 Message-ID: From: Richard Barnes To: Arturo Servin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1cdcc2d1f8f04df6e853d X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmRF8jwz4i/Nbeir+rRkL/5ZOrilv3DZkdR8JB3gzsRvWH484jqV//gzc0eKvkFz0ufvHF8 Cc: Alejandro Acosta , Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, Jari Arkko , S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:28:06 -0000 --e89a8ff1cdcc2d1f8f04df6e853d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Arturo Servin wrote: > SM > > On 6/18/13 4:40 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > At 20:35 17-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: > >> SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these multilingual > >> editors would be. Could you clarify? There's already a list of > >> translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be made more > >> prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phrase "list > >> of translations", which means people have to recognize that phrase > >> instead of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. Are you thinking that > >> these editors would contribute to the list of translations, or edit > >> the English version to be more readable to native speakers of other > >> languages? > > > > My suggestion is about having the four editors (see my previous message > > about this) edit the English version of the Tao. I intentionally did > > not define any goals as I believe that the members of the IESG have > > enough experience to know that this is not about selecting four people > > who do not usually speak English to say that the IETF is an > > international organization. > > > > Well, I think that then your goal then is like "document cleaning" > of > non-standard language in the Tao. Isn't it? > > Regards, > /as > Without speaking to SM's motivations, I think this would be a worthwhile goal in itself. And as Joe points out, there's no appointment necessary. Some people could do reviews and post them to the IETF list. SM: Would you like to recruit some people that meet your criteria? Anyone else want to contribute reviews? --Richard --e89a8ff1cdcc2d1f8f04df6e853d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Arturo Servin <a= rturo.servin@gmail.com> wrote:
=
SM

On 6/18/13 4:40 PM, S Moonesamy wrote:
> Hi Richard,
> At 20:35 17-06-= 2013, Richard Barnes wrote:
>> SM: I'm a little unclear on what the goal of these multilingua= l
>> editors would be. =A0Could you clarify? =A0There's already a l= ist of
>> translations linked from the Tao, which I've asked to be made = more
>> prominent -- right now, it's hidden behind a link on the phras= e "list
>> of translations", which means people have to recognize that p= hrase
>> instead of just searching for DE, KR, AR, etc. =A0Are you thinking= that
>> these editors would contribute to the list of translations, or edi= t
>> the English version to be more readable to native speakers of othe= r
>> languages?
>
> My suggestion is about having the four editors (see my previous messag= e
> about this) edit the English version of the Tao. =A0I intentionally di= d
> not define any goals as I believe that the members of the IESG have > enough experience to know that this is not about selecting four people=
> who do not usually speak English to say that the IETF is an
> international organization.
>

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Well, I think that then your goal then is like "= document cleaning" of
non-standard language in the Tao. Isn't it?

Regards,
/as

Without speaking to SM's motiva= tions, I think this would be a worthwhile goal in itself. =A0And as Joe poi= nts out, there's no appointment necessary. =A0Some people could do revi= ews and post them to the IETF list.

SM: Would you like to recruit some people that meet you= r criteria?

Anyone else want to contribute reviews= ?

--Richard=A0
--e89a8ff1cdcc2d1f8f04df6e853d-- From sm@elandsys.com Tue Jun 18 11:37:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73BB11E80F9 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:37:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 86i8EW0S8Qbm for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DA811E80F8 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.143.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5IIahaC028774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:36:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371580619; bh=qUuWIUGeaxkVCyCS+ISlmccLkt+j2FNeBM6pl9OqceQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=rrBmbRK3MxG7NgVfD11V80NQMEZg3tsj/SmKncLKO5uZ1TgGElYwEm8bPGJFMfLht EcT7h+e9RDm7RPEIQe3U+BgWDKDcvD8w0WZwiXhjIPTMQojf1l6wC7dNsBZc9bf478 5q46d1aVIFz/H5trj2aAUpNq2TZUuJhbQbR/kMiA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371580619; i=@elandsys.com; bh=qUuWIUGeaxkVCyCS+ISlmccLkt+j2FNeBM6pl9OqceQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=mRwH4sVNDOdxsdnKC+X7Qpi9b7ylLP2ty/dCl0fB96pPkqOeg88G6pKurFoxy5uaf ylNXXnIHzNb77AhenoEUHt3/MlMRKA9Xl0o6B82MtVMmXC1MGJHjN1zdZ3QclQdIxQ 4CJPXzrE2kfy5YV6nmh6QL8cDukh/498FHoCor1A= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618094753.0c4c2960@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:04:40 -0700 To: Arturo Servin , Joe Abley , Richard Barnes From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com, Juliao Braga , ericas@irtf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:37:12 -0000 At 03:03 18-06-2013, Arturo Servin wrote: > Well, I think that then your goal then is like "document cleaning" of >non-standard language in the Tao. Isn't it? My goal is to try and provide opportunities for people from emerging regions. I am okay if the editors decide that their goal should be what is mentioned above or they decide on having another goal. At 04:57 18-06-2013, Joe Abley wrote: >With respect, if there is concern about the clarity of the language >used in the Tao for international speakers, it makes more sense to >recruit reviewers whose first language is not English, not authors. My suggestion is about the editors. I leave it to the editors to recruit reviewers if they believe that it is needed. At 07:28 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: >Without speaking to SM's motivations, I think this would be a >worthwhile goal in itself. And as Joe points out, there's no >appointment necessary. Some people could do reviews and post them >to the IETF list. My reading of the above is that the IESG has not appointed an editor for the Tao as that was not necessary. Is that correct? :-) >SM: Would you like to recruit some people that meet your criteria? I don't have any criteria for reviewers. I don't consider asking a person to contribute for free when his or her contribution will not be meaningful as an opportunity. I can only try. It's up to the IESG to decide whether it is worthwhile to provide the opportunities. There is nothing I can do if the IESG decides that it is not worthwhile. Regards, S. Moonesamy From swb@internet2.edu Tue Jun 18 12:30:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0722F21E80B0 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:30:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0mmYq2BrA+nj for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tx2outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (tx2ehsobe003.messaging.microsoft.com [65.55.88.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D563B11E8105 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail84-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.234) by TX2EHSOBE006.bigfish.com (10.9.40.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:20 +0000 Received: from mail84-tx2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail84-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8A422008E; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.245.149; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:CH1PRD0810HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 3 X-BigFish: S3(zzda00hdc73hzz1f42h1d77h1ee6h1de0h1fdah1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1fc6h1082kzzz2dh2a8h668h839h93fhe5bhf0ah1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h18e1h1946h19b5h1ad9h1b0ah1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1dc1h1dfeh1dffh1e1dh1155h) Received: from mail84-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail84-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1371583817657302_10582; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS023.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.250]) by mail84-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93135200057; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0810HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.149) by TX2EHSMHS023.bigfish.com (10.9.99.123) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:17 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0810MB395.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.11.119]) by CH1PRD0810HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.145.168]) with mapi id 14.16.0324.000; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:16 +0000 From: Scott Brim To: S Moonesamy , Richard Barnes Thread-Topic: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF Thread-Index: AQHObAfoKI/af5GYEEyP9dCZ4DFuXpk7mV0A Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.255.145.132] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: internet2.edu Cc: "alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com" , Juliao Braga , "ericas@irtf.org" , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:28 -0000 SXQgc291bmRzIGxpa2UgeW91IGRvbid0IHdhbnQgZWRpdG9ycywgeW91IHdhbnQgcmV2aWV3ZXJz LiAgWW91IHdhbnQNCnBlb3BsZSBmb3Igd2hvbSBFbmdsaXNoIGlzIG5vdCBhIG5hdGl2ZSBsYW5n dWFnZSB0byByZXZpZXcgdGhlIHRleHQgYW5kDQpyZXBvcnQgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgZWRpdG9ycyBv biBwYXJ0cyB0aGV5IGNhbm5vdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHZlcnkgd2VsbCwgeWVzPw0KDQo= From rlb@ipv.sx Tue Jun 18 12:44:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F20111E80FE for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:44:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.278, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c+rHIx1ku+2t for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x233.google.com (mail-ob0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7662811E80F8 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id xk17so5026700obc.24 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=OeLSSYGbDHRYgJdTcfqu6O5W2Y8yE5i8qPJ6D75YL+8=; b=HMYCr9DIALAshkkeb9/jD320HbflFecMd9/SNlUyFjA1gqFGG1aQIviJs5f61gufSp 0ZR0mU8jHK+0JjxuITZwcGlHrmpG4SZYMTzlrJ4HiJYJHIBIv0X8pIqu78jtieHP9VLY e7p3Ph+P7THCqfI7JJM+vktiMXRy3RtDAuVQPjptZg9OWYxok1umyaZyo+IKUvn9Z0pb /Dv/Gqayk3ovyUfaBLsFjDVOdcJIQ/b23AuU6dRqzAoTWzqqIEK/gtlB+UFrB16yw+N2 rJ4NQ2aLNqaUzr29tToDuGqen9+89l4PLdINJbrPk68XQKQQolq6vVXGiGm2Uc2a2v8j 7sAg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.237.77 with SMTP id va13mr13238748obc.65.1371584668559; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.26.135 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [128.33.85.80] In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618094753.0c4c2960@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618094753.0c4c2960@elandnews.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:44:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: Richard Barnes To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1cdccf2ff6904df72f0de X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn+Guq7xMJrLOkBl8D211xBZdVWGqo6yRw26I45a4sa/AkPKQSstmkdvZHgu7I5WEMGlvRC Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Arturo Servin , Jari Arkko , Alejandro Acosta , Juliao Braga , Joe Abley Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:44:34 -0000 --e89a8ff1cdccf2ff6904df72f0de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:04 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > At 03:03 18-06-2013, Arturo Servin wrote: > >> Well, I think that then your goal then is like "document >> cleaning" of >> non-standard language in the Tao. Isn't it? >> > > My goal is to try and provide opportunities for people from emerging > regions. I am okay if the editors decide that their goal should be what is > mentioned above or they decide on having another goal. > > > At 04:57 18-06-2013, Joe Abley wrote: > >> With respect, if there is concern about the clarity of the language used >> in the Tao for international speakers, it makes more sense to recruit >> reviewers whose first language is not English, not authors. >> > > My suggestion is about the editors. I leave it to the editors to recruit > reviewers if they believe that it is needed. > > > At 07:28 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: > >> Without speaking to SM's motivations, I think this would be a worthwhile >> goal in itself. And as Joe points out, there's no appointment necessary. >> Some people could do reviews and post them to the IETF list. >> > > My reading of the above is that the IESG has not appointed an editor for > the Tao as that was not necessary. Is that correct? :-) According to the web page, Paul Hoffman is the current editor. Other people can of course submit reviews. > SM: Would you like to recruit some people that meet your criteria? >> > > I don't have any criteria for reviewers. > How about the five criteria in your original email? ;) > I don't consider asking a person to contribute for free when his or her > contribution will not be meaningful as an opportunity. I can only try. > It's up to the IESG to decide whether it is worthwhile to provide the > opportunities. There is nothing I can do if the IESG decides that it is > not worthwhile. > I think we have a difference in understanding here that's important to highlight: Only a small set of the opportunities at the IETF are "created" by the IESG (or anyone else). Most of them are things you can just do, like reviewing a document or submitting a draft with a new idea. In fact, I would argue that these "just do it" opportunities are more important in terms of getting involved in the IETF than the "official" opportunities. In my experience, reviewing a document is pretty much always a meaningful opportunity, regardless of whether it's offered (someone asks you to do a review) or you just do it. It shows that you're an engaged participant who cares about the IETF. It also usually leads to a technical discussion where you can demonstrate your technical competence to the community. That can do a lot more for one's reputation than being appointed WG chair! In other words, it's not up to the IESG to tell people what is and isn't worthwhile. (In this case in particular, nothing has been said either way, AFAICT). It's up to the community to decide what parts of the IETF are interesting and worth investing effort in. Just do it! Now, having finished that rant: I appreciate that the above is a pretty Western, individualist conception of things. I realize that for some other people, official request/recognition of one's activities is more important. Do you think it's important for the IETF leadership (IESG, chairs, etc.) to take a larger role in soliciting and/or recognizing things that people do? --Richard > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > --e89a8ff1cdccf2ff6904df72f0de Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:04 PM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@= elandsys.com> wrote:
At 03:03 18-06-2013, Artur= o Servin wrote:
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Well, I think that then your goal then is like "docume= nt cleaning" of
non-standard language in the Tao. Isn't it?

My goal is to try and provide opportunities for people from emerging region= s. =A0I am okay if the editors decide that their goal should be what is men= tioned above or they decide on having another goal.


At 04:57 18-06-2013, Joe Abley wrote:
With respect, if there is concern about the clarity of the language used in= the Tao for international speakers, it makes more sense to recruit reviewe= rs whose first language is not English, not authors.

My suggestion is about the editors. =A0I leave it to the editors to recruit= reviewers if they believe that it is needed.


At 07:28 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote:
Without speaking to SM's motivations, I think this would be a worthwhil= e goal in itself. =A0And as Joe points out, there's no appointment nece= ssary. =A0Some people could do reviews and post them to the IETF list.

My reading of the above is that the IESG has not appointed an editor for th= e Tao as that was not necessary. =A0Is that correct? :-)
<= br>
According to the web page, Paul Hoffman is the current editor= . =A0Other people can of course submit reviews.

=A0
SM: Would you like to recruit some people that meet your criteria?

I don't have any criteria for reviewers.

How about the five criteria in your original email? =A0;)
= =A0
I don't consider asking a person to contribute for free when his or her= contribution will not be meaningful as an opportunity. =A0I can only try. = =A0It's up to the IESG to decide whether it is worthwhile to provide th= e opportunities. =A0There is nothing I can do if the IESG decides that it i= s not worthwhile.

I think we have a difference in understand= ing here that's important to highlight: Only a small set of the opportu= nities at the IETF are "created" by the IESG (or anyone else). = =A0Most of them are things you can just do, like reviewing a document or su= bmitting a draft with a new idea. =A0In fact, I would argue that these &quo= t;just do it" opportunities are more important in terms of getting inv= olved in the IETF than the "official" opportunities. =A0

In my experience, reviewing a document is pretty much a= lways a meaningful opportunity, regardless of whether it's offered (som= eone asks you to do a review) or you just do it. =A0It shows that you'r= e an engaged participant who cares about the IETF. =A0It also usually leads= to a technical discussion where you can demonstrate your technical compete= nce to the community. =A0That can do a lot more for one's reputation th= an being appointed WG chair!

In other words, it's not up to the IESG to tell peo= ple what is and isn't worthwhile. =A0(In this case in particular, nothi= ng has been said either way, AFAICT). =A0It's up to the community to de= cide what parts of the IETF are interesting and worth investing effort in. = =A0Just do it!

Now, having finished that rant: I appreciate that the a= bove is a pretty Western, individualist conception of things. =A0I realize = that for some other people, official request/recognition of one's activ= ities is more important. =A0Do you think it's important for the IETF le= adership (IESG, chairs, etc.) to take a larger role in soliciting and/or re= cognizing things that people do?

--Richard



Regards,
S. Moonesamy

--e89a8ff1cdccf2ff6904df72f0de-- From sm@elandsys.com Tue Jun 18 13:02:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D52821F9AE0 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:02:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6X+aQ+JNv5g1 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5163321F9B25 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.143.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5IK24ep007069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:02:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371585736; bh=itT0fzOcbSUXV1bqkhxynT1HHsX2jveLWP4BfkvjeyU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=Qy8T0o5jcF/ptNK+pUekCwD9woFQcg3RmZRHueeZMLaK0oHQwN55P9DxbgThnDQ6y C9RASt+FBzxpWtMUS/y5dv07E5LJsIq5DQjTZOhTvANeOI7b3skUuGP+AlxUN75nMz hIOyc3oPs/K+T9cb684IMLjyFZxKtYhsu+QjYlpc= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371585736; i=@elandsys.com; bh=itT0fzOcbSUXV1bqkhxynT1HHsX2jveLWP4BfkvjeyU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=KBYLQT6rhkK3tXzwSvQbUjiRaZPXc6bWZKfPBs5J7BRYz7PPBYJJtzysu1NrfBVu1 /0U3maOL5jG1J6lkhu7vXhXrUEU8wodIhSfF8ng5l8fcioQjg35ZB68DLMMpVx56Je 0d+XKy9TyovpbKGa/t+dMMRg6HiSeK0Kii8yz3Gs= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618123249.0ce28100@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:46:43 -0700 To: Scott Brim From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:02:27 -0000 Hi Scott, At 12:30 18-06-2013, Scott Brim wrote: >It sounds like you don't want editors, you want reviewers. You want >people for whom English is not a native language to review the text and >report back to the editors on parts they cannot understand very well, yes? No, I would leave it to the editors to go and find people for whom English is not a native language. It is difficult to find reviewers in the IETF. It is even more difficult to find reviewers from emerging regions to review IETF work. Regards, S. Moonesamy From sm@elandsys.com Tue Jun 18 14:02:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978CA21E809B for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:02:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sRoxapY0iTCk for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6DE11E80F9 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.143.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5IL28WX029143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:02:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371589344; bh=uGcu74GsTxK+Ncjqe0HOSR7sekL4luI+/gYNMUawxgU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=IzA7+bwvqfV9AZ+zI7YEC35RZxBwnrUK+HHtl8Js0u+aryPiORSd1oqKzXIcjpQkb rO2/J94o2+BewItP2wpXlOHBWMU3YlbNaiYaOkr9pfcyB0VFefK8E+rzI3eTMAOwT8 jtyaxkIylHO60S6tKX9Klh50yy9Q/Q5AMUPPl+NM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371589344; i=@elandsys.com; bh=uGcu74GsTxK+Ncjqe0HOSR7sekL4luI+/gYNMUawxgU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=wW+mqF5PFlWwOKW82ChK1ch34AIX40RmL9RCLtSQbLstam/wthcpRMoQihQrxs3jm vQWJtRPbldVsWpuIqtMnhnwV571yYNv6fbEWjeO8EUi7aukbnNjQsrxwX5kgkH4rr/ a5TLcJ+1y7FiGD/nCHu4LOHWvUiBmPAIMzKyDAhU= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618124824.0ce20370@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:01:02 -0700 To: Richard Barnes From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618094753.0c4c2960@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Arturo Servin , Jari Arkko , Alejandro Acosta , Juliao Braga , Joe Abley Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:02:47 -0000 Hi Richard, At 12:44 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: >How about the five criteria in your original email? ;) That was to make the suggestion challenging for the IESG. :-) >I think we have a difference in understanding here that's important >to highlight: Only a small set of the opportunities at the IETF are >"created" by the IESG (or anyone else). Most of them are things you >can just do, like reviewing a document or submitting a draft with a >new idea. In fact, I would argue that these "just do it" >opportunities are more important in terms of getting involved in the >IETF than the "official" opportunities. Ok. >In my experience, reviewing a document is pretty much always a >meaningful opportunity, regardless of whether it's offered (someone >asks you to do a review) or you just do it. It shows that you're an >engaged participant who cares about the IETF. It also usually leads >to a technical discussion where you can demonstrate your technical >competence to the community. That can do a lot more for one's >reputation than being appointed WG chair! Ok. >In other words, it's not up to the IESG to tell people what is and >isn't worthwhile. (In this case in particular, nothing has been >said either way, AFAICT). It's up to the community to decide what >parts of the IETF are interesting and worth investing effort in. Just do it! Ok. >Now, having finished that rant: I appreciate that the above is a >pretty Western, individualist conception of things. I realize that >for some other people, official request/recognition of one's >activities is more important. Do you think it's important for the >IETF leadership (IESG, chairs, etc.) to take a larger role in >soliciting and/or recognizing things that people do? Not really, as congratulatory notes do not have much value if they are sent out frequently. I think that it was important for the IAB Chair to perform a Gen-ART review. :-) Regards, S. Moonesamy From juliao@braga.eti.br Tue Jun 18 15:06:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF7611E8106 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:06:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGi57djW87YV for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ye0-f174.google.com (mail-ye0-f174.google.com [209.85.213.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1EE11E8113 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ye0-f174.google.com with SMTP id m9so1556888yen.5 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-gm-message-state; bh=gwf/91tnLSfjMxwAUpDfCb4nXRs+uGMv8OLBt8DzUbQ=; b=meVeoXMncdPVwOiAvnRrT7+/QTM936IvqTpia3AJwhCRzGYyaS7ttd7bdKhaCtfUWC /Y5msEMMdhqXt0EpDu8kRJqTOAZ1jJGzNffq2Pk9E2CFqmJv4Gtg7Ey8i1ubu+MUMN90 ld0pfXpUuvJ3FEZFcyBIwpvuK/3K2ge5d8bmShPWCHMQ+Pt7Fbjv2bICSvTp6BISRc0x DT5ATPfW4LFg03wIUc1qJfuwooKX9G2Nuu5+hYInXjxQMA3cDiIwQOHnl6iTP8Y6kpxd 6NNRGgoLgIewXGz6YnmzfTB18YhJyxEN44YOAoHbhGdOhyizmNeT+cLx3Mi2K9+AYfiw fFrA== X-Received: by 10.236.113.134 with SMTP id a6mr11696464yhh.150.1371593155779; Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.130] ([177.180.96.191]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f30sm33111903yhi.21.2013.06.18.15.05.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51C0D9BE.60905@braga.eti.br> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:05:50 -0300 From: Juliao Braga User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130616105146.0bcb6528@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130616141123.0d180060@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618004801.0caed070@elandnews.com> <51C0307A.6080305@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618094753.0c4c2960@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130618124824.0ce20370@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130618124824.0ce20370@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlNjjLq4WzOhVkhYHMy76DWx6zupOmY2r3t6ui/ULXzWt7SphXT1qW7bHRO/DGPWGmKpH46 Cc: Alejandro Acosta , ericas@irtf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [ericas] A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 22:06:02 -0000 SM, I think the Tao: 1. Needs to be widespread 2. Needs to be translated into the most languages ​​possible. Both require systematic and well coordinated movements. Regards, Julião From lars@netapp.com Wed Jun 19 00:08:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E8421F9F79 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:08:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.661, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dk91+39fYLlN for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3141021F9F76 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,895,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="66046307" Received: from vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.241]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 19 Jun 2013 00:07:56 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.35]) by vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.241]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:07:56 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "ericas@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: Berlin meeting Thread-Index: AQHObLu4pZ3wWNMbIkaNcMvCOfrwmw== Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:07:55 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:08:07 -0000 Hi, if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions during the Be= rlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. If so, someone should make a request at https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.= html for an "IRTF" meeting. Lars= From arturo.servin@gmail.com Wed Jun 19 00:11:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319F021F9F46 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:11:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MXJajyh16pt1 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x22f.google.com (mail-pb0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F212521F9EA7 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id rr13so4728559pbb.6 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:11:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Kb+mu9NSCbMZBe3zh4LlW6CK7AF/1tjjOzTG9s1d8V4=; b=QGutldFXAInZG4/bYzOqewbfCMPXVPNvpKjzFx5R2pWYpGw1b7wMwT2W6Cy/dLU25y W6e6V8fVwhlF3r2r84S8iZnjFG+BlR/lYq7R3htbLAiTQFSCFM/ok1mx5zgb0PECG4vi emG6nl1wfewRczoQUC9Y1wxa2cHc9le8+KrPMGAfdDDa1ybq7SwN6ZjxIwY/SoIHJFKm ytgGJk/tsIJNQPFskCqn4IF8fnKqxmUdMxIU828hpwTs0UjcRS8OqW1AqPKJy4bLgDdm BSFe3u51dlIG7t97fnEAGzbpuPwqu3ExDxzR4Mmw6t+uw89NV+1Nx8hk/VOuZbQEjxyD pcEQ== X-Received: by 10.66.158.9 with SMTP id wq9mr5413941pab.189.1371625908637; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local (110-170-171-184.static.asianet.co.th. [110.170.171.184]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vv6sm23488828pab.6.2013.06.19.00.11.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 14:11:44 +0700 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ericas@irtf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:11:52 -0000 I can do that. Any day that people prefer? Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? Regards, as On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Hi, > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > If so, someone should make a request at https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > Lars > From vinayakh@gmail.com Wed Jun 19 04:01:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D0921F9BF2 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:01:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5BpevC24cFn0 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f169.google.com (mail-pd0-f169.google.com [209.85.192.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C1021F9360 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id y10so4987885pdj.28 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:01:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=iHV1IMDrsTgqWLvaTibzRDxiQqCuKoM4k6LwTwuJzZk=; b=lEo4ZwBXJT3L7lgi5AzMqPyxsgyX9SjM9W0O25PW9KTIqjo9HIdv4xY/DYhkeqarDI k5ac9F5iuw4iH0p4/D7stjpnNuZgoxdsQuAjQVWfeGeqHws/63PFs1g7oCRAqnk0WAuC S0jmPuqVYy/dUV0ClzIyCvcSsSEeGuwCsNHOmA7tRKkDXqaJ10Hp9QcvUAb0kLlx2+bb 7+YXnhMinyrP8TfD+wyoejT3V6cj9oTTqFoU/9nI0RUAb4jLvik7uYysBMyzKrMJKVoD KSmCVLIHw8qcGJLiFwx77doqBT/nynGzZRP5utRXRwXJ7OGLKCZua1yEp43JU6r1DuFN JieQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.164.232 with SMTP id yt8mr6228628pab.21.1371639672227; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.232.233 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:01:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:31:12 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Arturo Servin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86f2486c518a04df7fbfec Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:01:27 -0000 --047d7b86f2486c518a04df7fbfec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. Regards Vinayak On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > > I can do that. > > Any day that people prefer? > > Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? > > Regards, > as > > > On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > > Hi, > > > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions during the > Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > > > If so, someone should make a request at > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > > > Lars > > > --047d7b86f2486c518a04df7fbfec Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting groups begi= n. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts.

Regards
Vinayak
<= br>
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Serv= in <arturo.servin@gmail.com> wrote:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I can do that.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Any day that people prefer?

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact?

Regards,
as


On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> Hi,
>
> if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions during t= he Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it.
>
> If so, someone should make a request at https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.= html for an "IRTF" meeting.
>
> Lars
>

--047d7b86f2486c518a04df7fbfec-- From dhruv.ietf@gmail.com Wed Jun 19 04:06:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF5621F9C12 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mGGy3ZE3pfPr for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x236.google.com (mail-ie0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746F021F8717 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id s9so12960208iec.13 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=MejDN8Ki91EOq4XoG8ogxBYpis6VNWQw9UujAHPopmQ=; b=TMFmcqdG2OZtBhh6/vet/4EwO6SSchCYOt9rM1zMd5oO2X4PeU08JD+3SzAUQcSsH5 xq2yxerSIcNvtr4ixDETvwwy3I0yTHhsWja5Xwuq+bGnMqAch5ySD6IectbPeuFEkMUW O/DIPUFiaAaHpKaj0lWkvNre8mgVsB48+9m3n96e2YHAkPMX4LmEqaPVhQllxzxG4qar h+Mtz4lZ+wY7hZNhe3Qp1w48NMJqBvavtHosrJ+hCEUN1s8Bv8sH6joefYT16ZVhUAlU zZ+PFOVMM0ry3JcKth3YHsaVwe6zo7sRGS1w53KsFEQG+Yn9PpCbkKX28ZNn58t2TMgq pL9g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.67.65 with SMTP id l1mr3293978igt.104.1371640014372; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.126.103 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.126.103 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:06:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:36:54 +0530 Message-ID: From: Dhruv Dhody To: Vinayak Hegde Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd75deed1078a04df7fd344 Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Arturo Servin Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:06:56 -0000 --047d7bd75deed1078a04df7fd344 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +1 Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day? Dhruv On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" wrote: > It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting groups > begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. > > Regards > Vinayak > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > >> >> I can do that. >> >> Any day that people prefer? >> >> Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? >> >> Regards, >> as >> >> >> On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions during >> the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. >> > >> > If so, someone should make a request at >> https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. >> > >> > Lars >> > >> > > --047d7bd75deed1078a04df7fd344 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1
Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day?

Dhruv

On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" = <vinayakh@gmail.com> wrote:=
It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting groups begi= n. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts.

Regards
Vinayak
<= br>
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Serv= in <arturo.servin@gmail.com> wrote:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I can do that.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Any day that people prefer?

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact?

Regards,
as


On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> Hi,
>
> if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions during t= he Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it.
>
> If so, someone should make a request at https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.= html for an "IRTF" meeting.
>
> Lars
>

--047d7bd75deed1078a04df7fd344-- From arturo.servin@gmail.com Thu Jun 20 08:54:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD0021F9E24 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:54:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4SGjs6k1atb5 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f181.google.com (mail-pd0-f181.google.com [209.85.192.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A603921F9E29 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 14so6386732pdj.12 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:53:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UjDE+X+WXSaxjkRrF142kEFYIamqQ/gO2FSBaoBZuBU=; b=QgIG6v4idNMDS3RMGFNwi01uNj3JItMZGfr6uR28/CeEV3eD/O8b3dfYG9iO11sg3y QB0Q1NyjFj6pg5xdN3YeOHN6Mog/OcrBekdGN/9sQMyhoVgX9Bx0bijQ2XODZ7F0YZkc hnYJ/+9KdtS6Ru2hJHgCr2ULJHiDhYUEsCKCKNLjiPtwUu8TRcDuqGKNCTmqUqOrqu1G vllAGvsP2neVEQ9W/lGm26wZCFPTBlJpKge6uJvKFXVUZAZzfXA+Sw/siBjHb7aMXTbm bqB5yrRyBukc7w+LdVfxJDrXrNNVe5gN912X5HEarM2flEZgedIh3KSDZOBxKrDNH814 0cCA== X-Received: by 10.66.9.72 with SMTP id x8mr12179004paa.13.1371743628943; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([202.183.168.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ka16sm1313234pad.14.2013.06.20.08.53.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51C3257F.2010009@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 22:53:35 +0700 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dhruv Dhody References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:54:02 -0000 Doodle here: http://doodle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7 I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I didn't include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week. /as On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > +1 > Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day? > > Dhruv > > On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" > wrote: > > It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting > groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. > > Regards > Vinayak > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin > > wrote: > > > I can do that. > > Any day that people prefer? > > Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? > > Regards, > as > > > On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > > Hi, > > > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions > during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > > > If so, someone should make a request at > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > > > Lars > > > > From vinayakh@gmail.com Thu Jun 20 11:38:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB2121F9EBC for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MrwgvK-m6Mga for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66C621F9EAB for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id kq13so6607232pab.11 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:38:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=sYqacRQ1W3/xrJJUKckLPTX5yb2HIS1NkDuykm7QHg0=; b=VCE9yqyKgr3rfH7ufnbIzXyTe/r2mvDgGYd9IMkTM5s9frAWZqG1zeRRHW7tzKE3Ee Mk6BOECa5cVEv4vGfYvIToWtBHvwPn6YsOuU5gWESzguJrNu7mqj08yoFEZmcR9aIZfB HNeaA151E9TfNI91XC3pkZ7pFvQLb5oDnhUS8cYV6VbxnU/qH+Pt+l29e/JNbjBqTi2g 1szy/PT+DB+3jU0I3BTXVqUCaF95BhjEbNf0Id4XiQw8zLRnHsKSnlkg8+gesrmM8BIP fm4s9j/F8QRVYSXAeOT8gsF5vZ9k5r46yP0/YuR3RTSiUvampbaEbtMkIVpB/Rj/MB7F u4DQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.197.165 with SMTP id iv5mr8723694pbc.47.1371753482329; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.232.233 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:38:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51C3257F.2010009@gmail.com> References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> <51C3257F.2010009@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 00:08:02 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Arturo Servin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1cce608a6a404df9a3f37 Cc: Dhruv Dhody , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:38:12 -0000 --e89a8ff1cce608a6a404df9a3f37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The schedule for the WG meetings is not put up yet. I think it might be better to wait for it. Also 10.30pm will be really late for most people and 11.30am will likely clash with WG meeting timings since sessions start at 9am. We are better off having meetings at 8am / 6pm like a bar bof. My $0.02 Regards Vinayak On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > > Doodle here: > > http://doodle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7 > > I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I didn't > include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week. > > /as > > > On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > > +1 > > Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day? > > > > Dhruv > > > > On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" > > wrote: > > > > It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting > > groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. > > > > Regards > > Vinayak > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin > > > wrote: > > > > > > I can do that. > > > > Any day that people prefer? > > > > Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? > > > > Regards, > > as > > > > > > On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions > > during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > > > > > If so, someone should make a request at > > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > > > --e89a8ff1cce608a6a404df9a3f37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The schedule for the WG meetings is not put up yet. I think it might be bet= ter to wait for it.

Also 10.30pm will be really late for most people= and 11.30am will likely clash with WG meeting timings since sessions start= at 9am. We are better off having meetings at 8am / 6pm like a bar bof. My = $0.02

Regards
Vinayak

On Thu, Jun 20, 20= 13 at 9:23 PM, Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>= wrote:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Doodle here:

http://doo= dle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I d= idn't
include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week.

/as


On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote:
> +1
> Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day?
>
> Dhruv
>
> On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" <vinayakh@gmail.com
> <mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meetin= g
> =A0 =A0 groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts.
>
> =A0 =A0 Regards
> =A0 =A0 Vinayak
>
> =A0 =A0 On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin
> =A0 =A0 <arturo.servin@gmail.com <mailto:arturo.servin@gmail.com>> w= rote:
>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I can do that.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Any day that people prefer?
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Also, does anybody want to be the alte= rnative contact?
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Regards,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 as
>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > Hi,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face= discussions
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve= it.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > If so, someone should make a request at
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IR= TF" meeting.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > Lars
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
>
>

--e89a8ff1cce608a6a404df9a3f37-- From dhruv.ietf@gmail.com Thu Jun 20 20:58:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E66221E8050 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qf+eg+gYjwrA for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x235.google.com (mail-ie0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB3721F995B for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f181.google.com with SMTP id x12so18213506ief.40 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=8IyFYZPqH6BApezRjBBbl6gzhHE/zO4VRtgAvPuZD7g=; b=whG8CvVmYru3U+b7UCoOOYMwZ9QMPiLzdpUI7FwPp5rJJnBd194O9wamlnIBhkGEZD cZqvE+5l+WTPU1YLTt+87iepGF6c3K03VNaLWdHgVDGwJ5uEPxhSqr4TinFU0aCnPfto T9z1cIZh9KQDDsotocPh/fAlr58nMCSfu1CfM2lgouDfQKbABRfQRSKig7OV3/SRKx9e LhX2fIi18Dv6JZ18Acxpz0fscrlivWTEHJt928hkIRYDQfOV0aKMtELfs+E3HAKX3HkI zkdH9SGgh2GWWZycvwoS7UUGbeL7DNAw9NxNVm0fc0giP0imopDSX17XmpUnLkprru1f Q2iw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.32.70 with SMTP id g6mr1290974igi.2.1371787094831; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.152.176 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.152.176 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:58:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> <51C3257F.2010009@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:28:14 +0530 Message-ID: From: Dhruv Dhody To: Vinayak Hegde Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10ca557ebaf904dfa21203 Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Arturo Servin Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 03:58:16 -0000 --047d7b10ca557ebaf904dfa21203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Vinayak, You should change the timezone to berlin in the doodle. The proposed times are 8 am and 7 pm on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Dhruv The schedule for the WG meetings is not put up yet. I think it might be better to wait for it. Also 10.30pm will be really late for most people and 11.30am will likely clash with WG meeting timings since sessions start at 9am. We are better off having meetings at 8am / 6pm like a bar bof. My $0.02 Regards Vinayak On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > > Doodle here: > > http://doodle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7 > > I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I didn't > include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week. > > /as > > > On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > > +1 > > Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day? > > > > Dhruv > > > > On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" > > wrote: > > > > It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting > > groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. > > > > Regards > > Vinayak > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin > > > wrote: > > > > > > I can do that. > > > > Any day that people prefer? > > > > Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? > > > > Regards, > > as > > > > > > On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face discussions > > during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > > > > > If so, someone should make a request at > > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > > > --047d7b10ca557ebaf904dfa21203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Vinayak,

You should change the timezone to berlin in the doodle.

The proposed times are 8 am and 7 pm on Monday, Tuesday and = Wednesday.

Dhruv

The schedule for the WG meeti= ngs is not put up yet. I think it might be better to wait for it.

Al= so 10.30pm will be really late for most people and 11.30am will likely clas= h with WG meeting timings since sessions start at 9am. We are better off ha= ving meetings at 8am / 6pm like a bar bof. My $0.02

Regards
Vinayak

On Thu, Jun 20, 20= 13 at 9:23 PM, Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>= wrote:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Doodle here:

http://doo= dle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I d= idn't
include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week.

/as


On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote:
> +1
> Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day?
>
> Dhruv
>
> On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" <vinayakh@gmail.com
> <mailto:vinayakh@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meetin= g
> =A0 =A0 groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts.
>
> =A0 =A0 Regards
> =A0 =A0 Vinayak
>
> =A0 =A0 On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin
> =A0 =A0 <arturo.servin@gmail.com <mailto:arturo.servin@gmail.com>= > wrote:
>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I can do that.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Any day that people prefer?
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Also, does anybody want to be the alte= rnative contact?
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Regards,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 as
>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > Hi,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face= discussions
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve= it.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > If so, someone should make a request at
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IR= TF" meeting.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > Lars
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >
>
>

--047d7b10ca557ebaf904dfa21203-- From lars@netapp.com Fri Jun 21 00:07:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A1C11E8136 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 00:07:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.071 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.071 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.472, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WaVAzFkkubjY for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 00:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx11.netapp.com (mx11.netapp.com [216.240.18.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E419221F9EFF for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 00:07:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,911,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="28103539" Received: from vmwexceht06-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.104]) by mx11-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 21 Jun 2013 00:07:21 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.35]) by vmwexceht06-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.104]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 00:07:21 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "ericas@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: Conclusions on South American IETF Meeting Thread-Index: AQHObeA0owDAFm54CEGEcI9xQjLOvw== Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 07:07:19 +0000 Message-ID: <5C60E53E-9653-4F03-9A36-98DBEB9824CD@netapp.com> References: <20130620180046.12461.96111.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6524234F8F16C14FB7C0D8B5ED57D074@hq.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ericas] Fwd: Conclusions on South American IETF Meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 07:07:27 -0000 Begin forwarded message: > From: The IAOC > Subject: Conclusions on South American IETF Meeting > Date: June 20, 2013 20:00:46 GMT+02:00 > To: IETF Announcement List > Reply-To: >=20 > The IAOC would like to thank all the people who commented on the IETF > list and responded to the survey. It was very helpful to the IAOC in > identifying issues and interest. >=20 > As of 17 June 2013, the survey had 656 responses. This was more=20 > responses than for any other survey we have done, and is more than=20 > half of the number of people who usually attend an IETF meeting. >=20 > Of the unfiltered data, 72.3% said they would very likely or likely=20 > attend a meeting in Buenos Aires. 13.3% said unlikely or very=20 > unlikely. Of these 17.1% have not attended an IETF meeting and 38.7%=20 > are not on a committee, WG chair, I-D author, or full time student. In=20 > this group 169 people (25.7%) were from South America, Latin America,=20 > or the Caribbean. The unfiltered survey results can be found at: >=20 > http://iaoc.ietf.org/documents/SurveySummary_Unfiltered_06172013.pdf >=20 > Applying a filter of only looking at the most active participants=20 > (that is, IESG, IAB, IAOC, NomCom members, WG chairs, and I-D authors)=20 > the Likely and Very Likely is 71.8% indicated they will attend, and=20 > 13.8% said they were unlikely or very unlikely. In this group 26=20 > people (7.0%) were from South America, Latin America, or the=20 > Caribbean. Also, this group of the most active participants was Likely=20 > or Very Likely to attend London at 85.9% (higher than South America)=20 > and Yokohama at 68.4% (lower than South America). The filtered survey=20 > results can be found at: >=20 > http://iaoc.ietf.org/documents/SurveySummary_Active_06172013-1.pdf >=20 > Based on these survey results, we conclude there would be good=20 > attendance at a meeting in Buenos Aires overall, good attendance from=20 > people in the region, and that most active participants will attend.=20 > Active participants would attend at similar rates to their attendance=20 > at other IETF meetings. From this viewpoint, holding a meeting in=20 > Buenos Aires appears to be similar holding it in other locations=20 > around the world. >=20 > The results from the survey by itself do not mean we should have an=20 > IETF meeting in Buenos Aires, but it does eliminate several reasons=20 > why we should not have a meeting there. >=20 > The harder questions as discussed on the IETF list relate to if we=20 > should have a meeting in Buenos Aires. >=20 > The first part of this relates to whether having a single meeting in=20 > South America will increase IETF participation from that region and=20 > increase the diversity in the IETF. This was discussed a lot on the=20 > IETF list. We agree that a single meeting isn't sufficient. We have=20 > been talking with the Internet Society (ISOC) about programs and=20 > events that could be held in the region leading up to and following an=20 > IETF meeting in the region. They said that ISOC is planning to hold a=20 > series of events and programs in South America. This would include: >=20 > - Increasing the IETF Fellows and policy makers from the region > - Local meetings about IETF technologies > - Local meetings about Internet deployment approaches > - Local meetings with general information on how the IETF works and=20 > how to participate >=20 > The more detailed plan we received from ISOC can be found at: >=20 > http://iaoc.ietf.org/documents/ISOC%20Activities%20supporting%20IETF%20in= %20LAC.pdf >=20 > The IAOC thinks that scheduling an IETF meeting in Beunos Aires and=20 > announcing a series of events will increase the participation from=20 > this region and may improve the IETF's cultural diversity. >=20 > The other general questions raised on the list are why should we do=20 > this and will having a meeting in South America really help with the=20 > issues we see relating to advancing the IETF in political and=20 > international circles. Some people expressed skepticism that this=20 > would really help. We don't think we can prove this factually, it is a=20 > judgment call to a large extent, but we think the combination of the=20 > IETF meeting and the ISOC events in the region will help. >=20 > The IAOC will proceed with planning a single meeting in Buenos Aires=20 > based on what we have heard from the community, the survey, and our=20 > discussions with ISOC regarding organizing events in South America. We=20 > will also continue to track attendance from participants in all=20 > regions. >=20 > We thank you for providing feedback on the IETF list and for=20 > responding to the survey. >=20 > Bob Hinden > IAOC Chair From arturo.servin@gmail.com Fri Jun 21 01:06:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0271321F9F1A for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wA2jx2-h1NQO for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F20021F9A4A for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id um15so7338427pbc.24 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:06:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ydxs/wmaPQhdI33634gvOXvU9uZnKcuyVVl329rFeow=; b=A52M9frHtnflBMUUyAT7Lc+4JQaHsJblMUE5wUqEimpZzfCkWVhZ+q8q44olrrb5KS /7KeeXWUGPuxssEzF/W0Tk+6pg60zvUZn5fSiE2M4CgT+bp7BIQh74ET2QgVqszseLG1 s+jML0hGsCqegg6eRTkFsSUJ13Ba/Co0rxftb1xjH1Q4Uo6lMoAx5fZTAicc6YUBI1Ae wUASXOz2MK1eTrMP85TbaAvykp+6xbxFa+9qqwDtFtTDMTHsc4USfNgXoESJui+lPGw6 wJoHwPVgI9JnvY1CMdtLo74Ky+2pJox4BY9SIu0sk3C+Dm/TlP5jw9NxhnMHNF1irX1S IYgQ== X-Received: by 10.66.83.7 with SMTP id m7mr15336359pay.150.1371802011673; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([202.183.168.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id v7sm3854297pbq.32.2013.06.21.01.06.48 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51C40997.7050501@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 15:06:47 +0700 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vinayak Hegde References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> <51C3257F.2010009@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dhruv Dhody , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 08:06:53 -0000 Yes, that is the idea. To meet early in the morning or late in the afternoon. I put 7:00 p.m. but it could be 6 or 6:30. Regards as On 6/21/13 1:38 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > The schedule for the WG meetings is not put up yet. I think it might be > better to wait for it. > > Also 10.30pm will be really late for most people and 11.30am will likely > clash with WG meeting timings since sessions start at 9am. We are better > off having meetings at 8am / 6pm like a bar bof. My $0.02 > > Regards > Vinayak > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Arturo Servin > wrote: > > > Doodle here: > > http://doodle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7 > > I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I didn't > include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week. > > /as > > > On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > > +1 > > Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day? > > > > Dhruv > > > > On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" > > >> wrote: > > > > It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting > > groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. > > > > Regards > > Vinayak > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > I can do that. > > > > Any day that people prefer? > > > > Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? > > > > Regards, > > as > > > > > > On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face > discussions > > during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > > > > > If so, someone should make a request at > > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > > > > From arturo.servin@gmail.com Fri Jun 21 01:07:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFB311E8167 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nuMohav4QBAV for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9246421F9F1C for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id um15so7339582pbc.24 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QTr9M+j+QJmstMEk+nkJqp3VCzsNkedEPzpd6R1s6EI=; b=vtZRnxIOq8k8aUj5WjBz2rf1fdTfVJqEp/hhcng/d4mCtVivjMsQZI90EZHP97f7pD TXi2/M38Olmynp5EhQttEE68QxV7bIsBfMaWu5/13xPijp+Kso6Fn1gDdgHiT2qyB1vr GHNTl8J43JTmy4LAUk0PrTGUm8DRRuUJqCD8iP35Mg4fFmDq9zC2B4NMws6FJmHJWDHJ g2tiHCpVMg2R/zPE/S9YZUp08XxHTS7s9mnOJ7aHtPd2N5uc+M2txT6JWb12TUtkmjF9 PXg8QwwMPVX9fRC52MO/jOepotlhIgPvO2Q0WTzZOyi8XFIxzTmxDSNDnwzmMvsUVPyR 5N5w== X-Received: by 10.66.91.107 with SMTP id cd11mr15015817pab.74.1371802068355; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([202.183.168.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qi1sm4610783pac.21.2013.06.21.01.07.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51C409CF.5050308@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 15:07:43 +0700 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dhruv Dhody References: <51C159B0.5030606@gmail.com> <51C3257F.2010009@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [ericas] Berlin meeting X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 08:07:49 -0000 Yes, those are correct. Are you suggesting to meet in other times? I guess it would be a lot of clashes if we change to something different. as On 6/21/13 10:58 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > Hi Vinayak, > > You should change the timezone to berlin in the doodle. > > The proposed times are 8 am and 7 pm on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. > > Dhruv > > The schedule for the WG meetings is not put up yet. I think it might be > better to wait for it. > > Also 10.30pm will be really late for most people and 11.30am will likely > clash with WG meeting timings since sessions start at 9am. We are better > off having meetings at 8am / 6pm like a bar bof. My $0.02 > > Regards > Vinayak > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Arturo Servin > wrote: > > > Doodle here: > > http://doodle.com/a3qby4aryccei7b7 > > I only included early morning and late afternoon times. I didn't > include Thur and Friday because they are a bit late during the week. > > /as > > > On 6/19/13 6:06 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > > +1 > > Maybe a doodle poll can help to pick the best day? > > > > Dhruv > > > > On 19 Jun 2013 16:31, "Vinayak Hegde" > > >> wrote: > > > > It would be nice if it is a breakfast meeting before WG Meeting > > groups begin. That way it is easier to avoid conflicts. > > > > Regards > > Vinayak > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Arturo Servin > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > I can do that. > > > > Any day that people prefer? > > > > Also, does anybody want to be the alternative contact? > > > > Regards, > > as > > > > > > On 6/19/13 2:07 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > if folks would like a small room for face-to-face > discussions > > during the Berlin meeting, I'd be happy to approve it. > > > > > > If so, someone should make a request at > > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/amreq.html for an "IRTF" meeting. > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > > > > From sm@elandsys.com Fri Jun 21 05:39:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09CA21E8109 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9NhSa6o0QwR for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2350521E8106 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.154.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5LCdK8b007550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:39:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371818372; bh=LCgADV6VaxRyDkNr2LDiQawe8KchCWtxoawAx3idDmM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=BzBO0D90CZlRwJ0hkPztaQbop6DiMzgdcP4398R2HXVMyyHcC7Ta9gJQW2X7i356m g4JSrM48fSC3DinwyrMm8obX9egjQDY8CYNgzdvZc0G3EVV1nXG81X8k0wp/de6Vw3 BhhhVDQbeRrgmFt30sbSo60DPzMoFW7oBtJ2LFNE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371818372; i=@elandsys.com; bh=LCgADV6VaxRyDkNr2LDiQawe8KchCWtxoawAx3idDmM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=4GFqeLwnZhnoS0f8OFp06mbwX4+v94ErRXGAL5Lff7Vj6OYjrNeAI9fSZn5MXSNlV yQTF2E4SHwxMvthJFkkykkw060i076v+uCJQX6BYYoA1iCDYCgPEuGLpfG3N/tX+cy 93UtjUPlpEjJAnmnVOcYqTpRWzRrH3ONTkwwpfqM= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:39:13 -0700 To: Richard Barnes From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:39:35 -0000 Hi Richard, At 12:44 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: >Now, having finished that rant: I appreciate that the above is a >pretty Western, individualist conception of things. I realize that >for some other people, official I was thinking about the Western, individualist conception of things mentioned above. I was part of the Applications Area Review Team. When I took over the team was not performing any reviews. After about a year the team performed all the reviews it was assigned. The Security Directorate has an 80% rate. The team did 100%. I asked the Area Directors to create a directorate. They immediately said yes. I looked up the membership of a few other directorates today and noticed that there wasn't anyone from China or Japan. I went to one meeting and I was able to find people from Asia and emerging regions to volunteer for IETF work. I saw someone from an emerging region having a difficult time in a working group. Only one person stepped forward to help him. I had a chat with someone from an open source project. The person said to someone: "I would like you to come to our event, don't worry about money as we'll see about that". I have not heard people from the IETF saying that. There was a recent thread about "stuck getting visas". I didn't see people from the IETF saying "don't worry we can see about that". Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this mail list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please let me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging countries to get involved with IETF". There wasn't any reply. There was a similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. There wasn't any answer to it. Regards, S. Moonesamy From dhruv.ietf@gmail.com Fri Jun 21 06:54:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB2811E8189 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:54:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R+pU2egqBVjT for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x236.google.com (mail-ie0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7FE11E817D for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id s9so19693832iec.27 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:x-google-sender-delegation:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=YOq2JfmYZ8RxvtUQy9gKTm8ssmmjnGP6P/EIxGVaXDU=; b=VxcJmlafG9lDw5CqGGUtodsamBzvCwI/zMhwbRXCZbj7ZOz55keUKupNIoWt87//VI AG4ZJNmPO6rmX367wPtyLcuIeMp1J+c7HtMgNg+RnmIcSli7tFitI98Fm869UD4bsLJa 9/SYnCx0JPVBtvlwpGsXkuXM4gCV4MuqNjp3RnHbTEQtjjSxT0S8kZmYOz4E/kzw+P1N KL3Q1NmL6w+59DqC+lxCccBUxzkYaehJZUDQY4EzKJM7Lh63N8B4nRpitcxHOcNlR19Y VYaGVXYUZZ7onD777hvK5N5bGFCza28a0y10I9ly/1iNqWSd3TVjQn9+66Ut5/ya657d FGFA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.17.69 with SMTP id m5mr2512134igd.19.1371822851517; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dhruvdhody@gmail.com X-Google-Sender-Delegation: dhruvdhody@gmail.com Received: by 10.50.152.176 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:24:11 +0530 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _JEUkO9GAmXR8XO99VRDFIXQrpI Message-ID: From: Dhruv Dhody To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0102f400c278f904dfaa65f7 Cc: Richard Barnes , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:54:12 -0000 --089e0102f400c278f904dfaa65f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > > Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this mail > list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please let > me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging > countries to get involved with IETF". There wasn't any reply. There was a > similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. There wasn't any > answer to it. > I also consider this as an issue, huge number of engineers are working for vendors in the emerging region. Take Bangalore for an example all big vendors have big RnD centre out here but the number of regular IETF participation is still low. It is indeed harder to justify the travels to management sometimes, esp when dealing with project deadlines etc, The IETF regulars working for big vendors can take steps to change that mindset. There has been plans of mentoring in the IETF, vendors should do that internally and get some geographically dispersed, diverse participants to the IETF. Regards, Dhruv --089e0102f400c278f904dfaa65f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@= elandsys.com> wrote:

Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this ma= il list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please l= et me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging cou= ntries to get involved with IETF". =A0There wasn't any reply. =A0T= here was a similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. =A0There w= asn't any answer to it.

I also consider this as an issue, hu= ge number of engineers are working for vendors in the emerging region. =A0T= ake Bangalore for an example all big vendors have big RnD centre out here b= ut the number of regular IETF participation is still low.=A0

It is indeed harder to justify the travels = to management sometimes, esp when dealing with project deadlines etc, The I= ETF regulars working for big vendors can take steps to change that mindset.= =A0

There has been plans of=A0mentoring=A0in th= e IETF, vendors should do that internally and get some=A0geographically dis= persed, diverse participants to the IETF.=A0

Regards,
Dhruv
=A0=A0 =A0
=
--089e0102f400c278f904dfaa65f7-- From vinayakh@gmail.com Fri Jun 21 09:49:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27ECC21F9E94 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wj6a+nSgjq1m for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x236.google.com (mail-pb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6171821F9E7D for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ro2so8011223pbb.41 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6dmZGqGTicn18E4/FTw7w77g/oDkTvABbdjcaFxOPYY=; b=eQcAhwrSIEww6cKb7xXD5OdKizOV/g2PGDfyoQ2kXoZnO2rGeAlBsvUTiPYJBLqPEh XMmcoTzk6Kdb6ilmGo/3buIJVtoWswwU3zLHy90Kw5pThKlpZR5mPnjaab+0yCm41SRh 9JbRAO8u0xVIuFeB1r/NH/MC7wBaSR5REd3hnEc1eua4hfv8AGC7da1KRaUlHQ/z9OSC VtB18mcB+WPzAnkRwRN0NFng2TuSxf580UQJplLhG9GGUajnMe0GckLf05apveyQz56z lAiE8YcLprxQqW3eAOFfjwYcgcXOCxWQHPKscXHc7S4RMo8VXp3ao/i1nbOT2spEoBmX NY4w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.243.40 with SMTP id wv8mr13263193pbc.34.1371833396092; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.232.233 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:19:56 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Dhruv Dhody Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e14eb43e9d104dfacda2a Cc: Richard Barnes , ericas@irtf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 16:49:57 -0000 --047d7b2e14eb43e9d104dfacda2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > >> >> Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this mail >> list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please let >> me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging >> countries to get involved with IETF". There wasn't any reply. There was a >> similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. There wasn't any >> answer to it. >> > > I also consider this as an issue, huge number of engineers are working for > vendors in the emerging region. Take Bangalore for an example all big > vendors have big RnD centre out here but the number of regular IETF > participation is still low. > > It is indeed harder to justify the travels to management sometimes, esp > when dealing with project deadlines etc, The IETF regulars working for big > vendors can take steps to change that mindset. > > There has been plans of mentoring in the IETF, vendors should do that > internally and get some geographically dispersed, diverse participants to > the IETF. > I agree with Dhruv. There are quite a few networking companies that have offices in India. In my trips to the IETF, I have met with a few engineers from Bangalore who are authoring drafts. It is an encouraging trend though quite miniscule when compared with the headcount of these companies. The major problems with many companies to send engineers to the IETF is three-fold. 1. Many of the engineers are doing low-end work in the development life-cycle such as maintainence. Many of these engineers are also junior with less experience than some of the engineers from the US. So while they may co-author the draft with someone from the US/Europe, the other authors attend. 2. IETF meetings are expensive to travel to and attend. As many of the India R&D centers are seen as cost centers, it becomes hard for management to justify that expense. Doesn't help when you look at the overall expense of attending the meeting is a significant percentage of what engineers get paid in India. It doesn't help that out currency has lost > 10% of it's value in the last few weeks Vs the dollar. 3. There is a general lack of awareness of IETF and ISOC activities. We can't fix the 1st 2 easily but something can be done about the 3rd part. -- Vinayak --047d7b2e14eb43e9d104dfacda2a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, S Moone= samy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:

Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this ma= il list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please l= et me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging cou= ntries to get involved with IETF". =A0There wasn't any reply. =A0T= here was a similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. =A0There w= asn't any answer to it.

I also consider this as an issue, hu= ge number of engineers are working for vendors in the emerging region. =A0T= ake Bangalore for an example all big vendors have big RnD centre out here b= ut the number of regular IETF participation is still low.=A0

It is indeed harder to justify the travels to managemen= t sometimes, esp when dealing with project deadlines etc, The IETF regulars= working for big vendors can take steps to change that mindset.=A0

There has been plans of=A0mentoring=A0in the IETF, vend= ors should do that internally and get some=A0geographically dispersed, dive= rse participants to the IETF.

= I agree with Dhruv. There are quite a few networking companies that have of= fices in India. In my trips to the IETF, I have met with a few engineers fr= om Bangalore who are authoring drafts. It is an encouraging trend though qu= ite miniscule when compared with the headcount of these companies. The majo= r problems with many companies to send engineers to the IETF is three-fold.=

1. Many of the engineers are doing low-end work in the development life= -cycle such as maintainence. Many of these engineers are also junior with l= ess experience than some of the engineers from the US. So while they may co= -author the draft with someone from the US/Europe, the other authors attend= .

2. IETF meetings are expensive to travel to and attend. As many of the = India R&D centers are seen as cost centers, it becomes hard for managem= ent to justify that expense. Doesn't help when you look at the overall = expense of attending the meeting is a significant percentage of what engine= ers get paid in India. It doesn't help that out currency has lost > = 10% of it's value in the last few weeks Vs the dollar.

3. There is a general lack of awareness of IETF and ISOC activities.
We can't fix the 1st 2 easily but something can be done about the= 3rd part.

-- Vinayak
--047d7b2e14eb43e9d104dfacda2a-- From vinayakh@gmail.com Fri Jun 21 10:14:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE99E21F9FAB for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07Vvs-fws2jE for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E248521F9FA6 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id bi5so8129701pad.18 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6R9nmsGGwmPU25U9q5s4dHB3CZ8Mk6bE73fvRDA72UY=; b=BtT94ZqzMKYMVEm9Zag9TyHnFNJT7ZTHUQHMK/AnR9/VIJo4IwN8YQrzAMevuQrdd3 tQmnOQ2Wdb6e4l7kQaRnD/B3a0C/HEbCmXv3Yl3D/O6dMhkDbh1thIIRn0MKHvbTHKsu p4o9a8i4SA06/ziHZNci7gytibXiZ1HAXAEBJj2auPsGwkarISYOKPlGUKy9qgc1yV/F K5Cfj9G6a1CqfCR7NWWLsLoGQUFExvl7wKnRI9eqWMOtAGvOImMF1IXFENk3qO5aI/8L eE+CLNj4DnIpiPNIGMj0f/hK7cp0J5prRTfIVe78ZdA/7zAPCR7WFFIS64Oyxh/uCTqk vlFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.252.36 with SMTP id zp4mr13482360pbc.51.1371834881602; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.232.233 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:44:41 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e0b61ceff6004dfad3216 Cc: Richard Barnes , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:14:42 -0000 --047d7b2e0b61ceff6004dfad3216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Richard, > At 12:44 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote: > >> Now, having finished that rant: I appreciate that the above is a pretty >> Western, individualist conception of things. I realize that for some other >> people, official >> > > I was thinking about the Western, individualist conception of things > mentioned above. I was part of the Applications Area Review Team. When I > took over the team was not performing any reviews. After about a year the > team performed all the reviews it was assigned. The Security Directorate > has an 80% rate. The team did 100%. I asked the Area Directors to create > a directorate. They immediately said yes. > > I looked up the membership of a few other directorates today and noticed > that there wasn't anyone from China or Japan. I went to one meeting and I > was able to find people from Asia and emerging regions to volunteer for > IETF work. > Well I wouldn't blame anyone for this. It is hard to get volunteers for any directorate. I am part of the performance directorate. It has been really hard to recruit volunteers for this group (yes some of the work is niche - which doesn't help). We have a lot of pending reviews and the same faces have been raising hands for a couple of years when doing reviews. Let me know if there are any good strategies to overcome this. I saw someone from an emerging region having a difficult time in a working > group. Only one person stepped forward to help him. > > I had a chat with someone from an open source project. The person said to > someone: "I would like you to come to our event, don't worry about money as > we'll see about that". I have not heard people from the IETF saying that. > There was a recent thread about "stuck getting visas". I didn't see > people from the IETF saying "don't worry we can see about that". > Again, there is only so much that the IETF can do about this honestly. IMHO IETF does a decent job at this with letters of invitation and other stuff. I have never had any issues with the IETF for this. That said, I have done a bit of travelling myself. Many people from the western world do not have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go through for something they take for granted (or even bother). Just ask someone young from a developing country who has applied for a visa to the US / Europe (Schengen). Last year, my company submitted almost 250 pages of documentation to get a single entry visa. I just applied for the Schengen visa to Berlin, Germany. It took me 3 days to get all the documents necessary to get the visa. I will know soon if I am flying. And I have to do this every year for every meeting that I attend. The US visa is painful but atleast you get a longer duration easily not so with Europe. I spent around $120 overall (other than time) for the visa. Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this mail > list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please let > me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging > countries to get involved with IETF". There wasn't any reply. There was a > similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. There wasn't any > answer to it. > Honestly there are a lot of armchair revolutionaries on the main IETF mailing list, who like to pontificate from the pulpit. Sad but true. -- Vinayak --047d7b2e0b61ceff6004dfad3216 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:09 PM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Hi Richard,
At 12:44 18-06-2013, Richard Barnes wrote:
Now, having finished that rant: I appreciate that the above is a pretty Wes= tern, individualist conception of things. =A0I realize that for some other = people, official

I was thinking about the Western, individualist conception of things mentio= ned above. =A0I was part of the Applications Area Review Team. =A0When I to= ok over the team was not performing any reviews. =A0After about a year the = team performed all the reviews it was assigned. =A0The Security Directorate= has an 80% rate. =A0 The team did 100%. =A0I asked the Area Directors to c= reate a directorate. =A0They immediately said yes.

I looked up the membership of a few other directorates today and noticed th= at there wasn't anyone from China or Japan. =A0I went to one meeting an= d I was able to find people from Asia and emerging regions to volunteer for= IETF work.

Well I wouldn't blame anyone for this. It is hard= to get volunteers for any directorate. I am part of the performance direct= orate. It has been really hard to recruit volunteers for this group (yes so= me of the work is niche - which doesn't help). We have a lot of pending= reviews and the same faces have been raising hands for a couple of years w= hen doing reviews. Let me know if there are any good strategies to overcome= this.

I saw someone from an emerging region having a difficult time in a working = group. =A0Only one person stepped forward to help him.

I had a chat with someone from an open source project. =A0The person said t= o someone: "I would like you to come to our event, don't worry abo= ut money as we'll see about that". =A0I have not heard people from= the IETF saying that. =A0There was a recent thread about "stuck getti= ng visas". =A0I didn't see people from the IETF saying "don&#= 39;t worry we can see about that".
=A0
Again, there is only so much that the IETF can do = about this honestly. IMHO IETF does a decent job at this with letters of in= vitation and other stuff. I have never had any issues with the IETF for thi= s.

That said, I have done a bit of travelling myself. Many people from the= western world do not have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go = through for something they take for granted (or even bother). Just ask some= one young from a developing country who has applied for a visa to the US / = Europe (Schengen). Last year, my company submitted almost 250 pages of docu= mentation to get a single entry visa. I just applied for the Schengen visa = to Berlin, Germany. It took me 3 days to get all the documents necessary to= get the visa. I will know soon if I am flying. And I have to do this every= year for every meeting that I attend. The US visa is painful but atleast y= ou get a longer duration easily not so with Europe. I spent around $120 ove= rall (other than time) for the visa.

Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this ma= il list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please l= et me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging cou= ntries to get involved with IETF". =A0There wasn't any reply. =A0T= here was a similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. =A0There w= asn't any answer to it.

Honestly there are a lot of armchair revolutionaries = on the main IETF mailing list, who like to pontificate from the pulpit. Sad= but true.

-- Vinayak
--047d7b2e0b61ceff6004dfad3216-- From fred@cisco.com Fri Jun 21 11:25:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619D021E8130 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.441 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.441 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.159, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fugtNO49xf8 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F53D21E812D for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:25:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2427; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1371839108; x=1373048708; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=JATNWA/wO/0SmiaP8KKPmgnmvbXZuvQoq/Agwlvrvhs=; b=H5tlO3Syn6x3zh1LvkoXbgZXhx5jHCjRBWsLv8qxTcylkD1IERtIYz8N 6t2bILQsRvxD0e/0NmkaP+/66S73GMdDPcPq18FxKbaBS0Qr69cB3WpZL pDxFmrHmqTa2I2JY/KDF5yMp9M7gBTkUZ16xA6N2UdOzbJAPWv3IUciCZ k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgcFAKKZxFGtJV2Z/2dsb2JhbABbgwl6viuBCoEFFnSCIwEBAQMBOjQLBQsCAQgiFAULMiUCBA4FCIgABrxbjhd/AjEHgwBhA6kHgViBN4FxNw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,914,1363132800"; d="scan'208";a="225932904" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jun 2013 18:25:07 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com [173.36.12.78]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5LIP7DN002804 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:25:07 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([169.254.9.220]) by xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com ([173.36.12.78]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:25:07 -0500 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: S Moonesamy Thread-Topic: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) Thread-Index: AQHObnxkZWWDbsEr/0+/LDirjjScl5lA0CUA Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:25:06 +0000 Message-ID: <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B921CDF@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.125] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Richard Barnes , "" Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:25:25 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:25:25 -0000 On Jun 21, 2013, at 5:39 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this mail = list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please let = me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging countr= ies to get involved with IETF". There wasn't any reply. There was a simil= ar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. There wasn't any answer t= o it. I can discuss this from a Cisco perspective, although of course not to be t= aken as a formal statement from the company. I will wonder what a general I= ETF question has to do with an IRTF RG, but I'll let that go. Cisco has about 450 buildings worldwide; a large cluster are in San Jose Ca= lifornia, but we have engineering offices in Massachusetts, North Carolina,= Texas, Ireland, Scotland, England, Holland, France, Switzerland, Israel, I= ndia, China, and Japan (and probably some other places I haven't thought of= ; this is off the top of my head). We don't think of them as being in, or n= ot in, developing countries; we think of them as being the locations of eng= ineering groups. If a given engineering group has need for standards work, = that engineering group is on the hook to do it. If that means someone from = Bangalore needs to attend an IETF meeting, someone from Bangalore needs to = attend an IETF meeting. I'll give you one specific instance. I was asked to consider being a mentor= for an ISOC Fellow that worked for Cisco in India. I contacted the guy, hi= s manager, and Steve Conte, who manages Fellows for ISOC. I thought it was = great that the guy wanted to attend, and I told him I would mentor him. But= we get into an interesting problem with the fact that we send money to ISO= C as a 501(c)3; we can't be seen as deriving benefit from that, and I could= imagine an interesting audit outcome. I told the guy's manager that he nee= ded to belly up to the travel expense. The guy came. We have had other engi= neers from Cisco in India attend as well. I think the question got no answer because it was malformed. The better que= stion would be "do companies X, Y, and Z have engineering offices in develo= ping countries and expect engineers there to be involved in standards work = when appropriate?" The answer, from Cisco and I imagine from our competitor= s, would be "yes".= From vinayakh@gmail.com Fri Jun 21 11:31:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD5D21F9F36 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:31:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SwxbrJiwrNRb for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B2021F9F1D for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id bj3so8217824pad.0 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:31:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=07voDtnH8fiExe4tfurTx5TRPK9Lg7JwZV/Hbu8ochM=; b=GuhV+I5Zrs10s6iSIe+XgGWfY9RI2KstMjx9UjKZI/cE9a8P3Hj1Vs6LhCOvQolLRC rhUc9z/dwIK4WY14y1AZGD9V4u3qVv5ZwJUrcClywz9v2INhQvjoQ7bP1css+nWhEeDw TeJnom70DLWWGZkkDJgEwAeXtJodrho12aEfm595W8bHS1z2WHXJ2Pt35wX6pR9c03Td ZHVMeOfmgiL7fOVOjiccmID1Hed/LlxkW7xo/tdbG1F2WVrt9gpm23OuBgAyxjyWJoVV qQOQdqFqGlDnJygroZVzs/W/ScUPNZY9Sa5ElwVG0Ld8g3AEbuT8Ms9aM2v9uCY1tV17 4LPA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.220.197 with SMTP id py5mr17589000pac.86.1371839507944; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.232.233 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:31:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B921CDF@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B921CDF@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 00:01:47 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5dba928f5e8b04dfae46be Cc: Richard Barnes , "" , S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:31:53 -0000 --047d7b5dba928f5e8b04dfae46be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2013, at 5:39 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > > > Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in this mail > list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, please let > me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emerging > countries to get involved with IETF". There wasn't any reply. There was a > similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. There wasn't any > answer to it. > > I can discuss this from a Cisco perspective, although of course not to be > taken as a formal statement from the company. I will wonder what a general > IETF question has to do with an IRTF RG, but I'll let that go. > > Cisco has about 450 buildings worldwide; a large cluster are in San Jose > California, but we have engineering offices in Massachusetts, North > Carolina, Texas, Ireland, Scotland, England, Holland, France, Switzerland, > Israel, India, China, and Japan (and probably some other places I haven't > thought of; this is off the top of my head). We don't think of them as > being in, or not in, developing countries; we think of them as being the > locations of engineering groups. If a given engineering group has need for > standards work, that engineering group is on the hook to do it. If that > means someone from Bangalore needs to attend an IETF meeting, someone from > Bangalore needs to attend an IETF meeting. > > I'll give you one specific instance. I was asked to consider being a > mentor for an ISOC Fellow that worked for Cisco in India. I contacted the > guy, his manager, and Steve Conte, who manages Fellows for ISOC. I thought > it was great that the guy wanted to attend, and I told him I would mentor > him. But we get into an interesting problem with the fact that we send > money to ISOC as a 501(c)3; we can't be seen as deriving benefit from that, > and I could imagine an interesting audit outcome. I told the guy's manager > that he needed to belly up to the travel expense. The guy came. We have had > other engineers from Cisco in India attend as well. > > I think the question got no answer because it was malformed. The better > question would be "do companies X, Y, and Z have engineering offices in > developing countries and expect engineers there to be involved in standards > work when appropriate?" The answer, from Cisco and I imagine from our > competitors, would be "yes". Interestingly of the two/three other Indians I met at Maastricht one was mentored by Fred (Raj Singh / Cisco) and another by Lars (Varun Singh). Thanks guys. The only other guy was a researcher from S. Korea whose mentor was also a IETF contributor. Maybe some of you should chime in on the mentorship thread on IETF mailing list. -- Vinayak --047d7b5dba928f5e8b04dfae46be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Fred Baker (fr= ed) <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

On Jun 21, 2013, at 5:39 AM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:

> Humberto asked the following question: "If there is anybody in th= is mail list from big vendors like Juniper, Cisco, Extreme, and others, ple= ase let me know what you have done to stimulate your engineers from emergin= g countries to get involved with IETF". =A0There wasn't any reply.= =A0There was a similar question on the IETF discussion mailing list. =A0Th= ere wasn't any answer to it.

I can discuss this from a Cisco perspective, although of course not t= o be taken as a formal statement from the company. I will wonder what a gen= eral IETF question has to do with an IRTF RG, but I'll let that go.

Cisco has about 450 buildings worldwide; a large cluster are in San Jose Ca= lifornia, but we have engineering offices in Massachusetts, North Carolina,= Texas, Ireland, Scotland, England, Holland, France, Switzerland, Israel, I= ndia, China, and Japan (and probably some other places I haven't though= t of; this is off the top of my head). We don't think of them as being = in, or not in, developing countries; we think of them as being the location= s of engineering groups. If a given engineering group has need for standard= s work, that engineering group is on the hook to do it. If that means someo= ne from Bangalore needs to attend an IETF meeting, someone from Bangalore n= eeds to attend an IETF meeting.

I'll give you one specific instance. I was asked to consider being a me= ntor for an ISOC Fellow that worked for Cisco in India. I contacted the guy= , his manager, and Steve Conte, who manages Fellows for ISOC. I thought it = was great that the guy wanted to attend, and I told him I would mentor him.= But we get into an interesting problem with the fact that we send money to= ISOC as a 501(c)3; we can't be seen as deriving benefit from that, and= I could imagine an interesting audit outcome. I told the guy's manager= that he needed to belly up to the travel expense. The guy came. We have ha= d other engineers from Cisco in India attend as well.

I think the question got no answer because it was malformed. The better que= stion would be "do companies X, Y, and Z have engineering offices in d= eveloping countries and expect engineers there to be involved in standards = work when appropriate?" The answer, from Cisco and I imagine from our = competitors, would be "yes".

Interestingly of the two/three other Indians I met at Maastricht = one was mentored by Fred (Raj Singh / Cisco) and another by Lars (Varun Sin= gh). Thanks guys. The only other guy was a researcher from S. Korea whose m= entor was also a IETF contributor. Maybe some of you should chime in on the= mentorship thread on IETF mailing list.

-- Vinayak
--047d7b5dba928f5e8b04dfae46be-- From sm@elandsys.com Fri Jun 21 14:31:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F120521F9B41 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9TiZlsNgrUVw for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D756321F9AF8 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.158.131]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5LLVHfd026475 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:31:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371850290; bh=wtjXiDFmbDdfLSNe7CU1F3r/SXNGrIm4rdAV8MM9My0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=l05AAHhD1Gq5dNrqUn6NxcRM7A/6Z9h241ZJ1v5Ec/5bwha8SE9aLW/lVdOTw96D2 DEZUdaBS1RJ2OxATveBM6sQbCVFHO3u58rY2ebETazXzyPRHnTxvs2+VbOz7d6/Ohk Sh6OlW1nG+MoQfdqbJ7Ll9Jp2XKhUbquEFJgfSb4= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371850290; i=@elandsys.com; bh=wtjXiDFmbDdfLSNe7CU1F3r/SXNGrIm4rdAV8MM9My0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=S3dwJxCvMIlWLuL5ff9L+Fsw0c/HH6uWiD8PlMb2uSV+FGzrGn+VNzh6KrJn/Lq1h NtMD2N0uc+Kxatmiqs1wZZRwRGkDlLmx9rk/NytyXPLy7noUVxUKRcRnxS1AxwxZe+ Q0OiRhnCtKbJMXwUmXVsxmNfbj4MBmquhSHWI8jU= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:21:07 -0700 To: Vinayak Hegde From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Adrian Farrel , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 21:31:38 -0000 Hi Vinayak, I am posting this message from an email address so that it is easy for you to find out who pays me. You can determine whether my employer will derive any benefit from what I say or do. At 10:14 21-06-2013, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >Well I wouldn't blame anyone for this. It is hard to get volunteers >for any directorate. I am part of the performance directorate. It >has been really hard to recruit volunteers for this group (yes some >of the work is niche - which doesn't help). We have a lot of pending >reviews and the same faces have been raising hands for a couple of >years when doing reviews. Let me know if there are any good >strategies to overcome this. I agree that it is hard to find people who will volunteer. I too encountered the problem where the same people were raising their hands to do reviews. There are a lot of situations which are designed in such a way that nobody can be blamed. This is where I would look at who gets credit when things work fine as it is a good way to find out who is to blame. >Again, there is only so much that the IETF can do about this >honestly. IMHO IETF does a decent job at this with letters of >invitation and other stuff. I have never had any issues with the IETF for this. I and several other persons had to complain for years. The IAOC finally took that decision. There are several other things affecting people from emerging regions which I had to complain about several times as the suggestions were ignored. >That said, I have done a bit of travelling myself. Many people from >the western world do not have any idea about the amount of pain one >has to go through for something they take for granted (or even >bother). Just ask someone young from a developing country who has I think that one of the problems is what you said above. People do not have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go to and they take a lot of things for granted. >Honestly there are a lot of armchair revolutionaries on the main >IETF mailing list, who like to pontificate from the pulpit. Sad but true. Yes. Some people make pompous speeches at the microphone. Some people from emerging regions are impressed by the speeches or the title of the person and believe that what is being said is true. I don't know whether Adrian Farrel is subscribed to this mailing list. I would like to thank Mr Farrel for doing something instead of asking me a lot of questions to avoid doing something I asked. :-) Regards, S. Moonesamy From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Jun 21 22:16:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9FA21F9458 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:16:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MzUn24TT+kIx for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF89921F9330 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r5M5G3Vs014033; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 06:16:03 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (customer11297.110.kt.cust.t-mobile.co.uk [178.110.44.32] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r5M5Fu45014004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 22 Jun 2013 06:16:00 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'S Moonesamy'" , "'Vinayak Hegde'" References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 06:15:54 +0100 Message-ID: <0a7901ce6f07$95cf7b60$c16e7220$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFnfc01DwPuudtuue+XAzFhd/9YPQLj06/sAjitRP6Z5iQEIA== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:16:33 -0000 Hello SM, No, I'm not subscribed to ericas (I probably should be, please send extra hours for me to include in my day). And, yes, it is wonderful to thanked for something. While we are patting each other on the back, thanks to SM for introducing me to Ines Robles who is now doing a fine job as working group secretary for the ROLL working group in the IETF even while still learning about the IETF. The "pain in travel" issue is amusing to me. It is completely true that folk in many places do not fully grok the difficulties of travel. It took a number of years of shouting and screaming to get the wider IETF to understand that having IETF meetings in the US imposed a bar to participation from China because a percentage of visa applications were always refused, and because the visa application period (which is sometimes greater than four months) is prohibitive because the IETF meeting venues (i.e. hotels) were not announced with sufficient warning, and it is anyway unreasonable to expect someone to be without their passport for four months. This accounts for why we have so many meetings in Canada (it is North America without being the US). At the same time, if you ask one of the old-time US participants about where to hold IETF meetings, they will pretty much always whine about the pain and cost of travel to locations outside of North America (but will put up with Europe if it is a good tourist location at a nice time of year). So, they *do* understand some (not all) of the pain of travel, but have a problem with projection and empathy :-) Not surprising as a large percentage of the IETF are on the autistic spectrum!! But, while thanking me is great, I also think you should be telling me I don't do enough. Yes, I have tried to push this issue hard in the four years I have been an AD. But, it is clear to me that this is not enough. The rise in Chinese participation is a great success story. But is it clear to me that this was driven just as much by industry in China being determined to become a world player, than it was in any way driven by the IETF becoming a more welcoming place. Maybe the *effectiveness* of Chinese participation was improved by a number of people working hard in the IETF to provide education. Yet where is the participation from Africa and South America? Why don't we see that? Actually, ISOC reports to me that a run-on from the ISOC policy fellows program. Apparently there are some moves from African nations who sent policy fellows a few meetings ago (Paris, I think) to send engineers to the next few meetings. I don't kid myself this is more than a trickle, but one does have to start somewhere. The things that I am unable to help with are the things where I don't know what the problems are, and where I don't know what would help. I am going to guess that holding an IETF in Cape Town would not be significantly easier for participants from Morocco than an IETF in Paris. I am also going to guess that an IETF in Israel would not be a great help for participants from Libya. But I am also going to make the bold statement that physical participation should not be our primary goal on day one (of course it would be wonderful and remains a long-term aim). I want to work out how we raise awareness of the IETF, and how we get people to start to participate via the mailing lists. A real dream would be to have an IETF working group formed entirely out of remote participation (which would completely facilitate people in *any* country). People post Internet-Drafts; there is a mailing list for discussions; a good consensus is built; the AD forms a working group; RFCs are published. There is zero reason why this should not happen. So what are we missing for this? Answer: we lack active remote participants, and in particular, we lack remote participants with pressing requirements that need to be solved and a willingness/ability to articulate those problems. Tell me please: what would it take? why doesn't this happen? Is it lack of awareness/education about the IETF? Is it lack of technical skills? Is it because all the problems are actually being solved anyway? Are there barriers of language? And please tell me what else is needed? Perhaps the way to look at this is to draw up a wish-list and to try to order it by things that would make most difference. Given that each new thing or process change costs (in terms of time, effort, and reduction in lifespan) it is worth us taking the time to pick off the most valuable things first (although it may also be worth the time to pick off low-hanging fruit as well). Time to stop rambling and get back to work. Cheers, Adrian PS. And if the transparency is needed, Juniper Networks funds me to be an IETF Area Director. > -----Original Message----- > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com] > Sent: 21 June 2013 22:21 > To: Vinayak Hegde > Cc: ericas@irtf.org; Adrian Farrel > Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A > suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) > > Hi Vinayak, > > I am posting this message from an email address so that it is easy > for you to find out who pays me. You can determine whether my > employer will derive any benefit from what I say or do. > > At 10:14 21-06-2013, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > >Well I wouldn't blame anyone for this. It is hard to get volunteers > >for any directorate. I am part of the performance directorate. It > >has been really hard to recruit volunteers for this group (yes some > >of the work is niche - which doesn't help). We have a lot of pending > >reviews and the same faces have been raising hands for a couple of > >years when doing reviews. Let me know if there are any good > >strategies to overcome this. > > I agree that it is hard to find people who will volunteer. I too > encountered the problem where the same people were raising their > hands to do reviews. There are a lot of situations which are > designed in such a way that nobody can be blamed. This is where I > would look at who gets credit when things work fine as it is a good > way to find out who is to blame. > > >Again, there is only so much that the IETF can do about this > >honestly. IMHO IETF does a decent job at this with letters of > >invitation and other stuff. I have never had any issues with the IETF for this. > > I and several other persons had to complain for years. The IAOC > finally took that decision. There are several other things affecting > people from emerging regions which I had to complain about several > times as the suggestions were ignored. > > >That said, I have done a bit of travelling myself. Many people from > >the western world do not have any idea about the amount of pain one > >has to go through for something they take for granted (or even > >bother). Just ask someone young from a developing country who has > > I think that one of the problems is what you said above. People do > not have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go to and they > take a lot of things for granted. > > >Honestly there are a lot of armchair revolutionaries on the main > >IETF mailing list, who like to pontificate from the pulpit. Sad but true. > > Yes. Some people make pompous speeches at the microphone. Some > people from emerging regions are impressed by the speeches or the > title of the person and believe that what is being said is true. > > I don't know whether Adrian Farrel is subscribed to this mailing > list. I would like to thank Mr Farrel for doing something instead of > asking me a lot of questions to avoid doing something I asked. :-) > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy From sm@elandsys.com Sat Jun 22 10:46:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC8021F920B for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:46:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.286, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2VWPyTHnXZm for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7800E21F92C2 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.138.109]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r5MHkKoW019625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:46:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1371923195; bh=K7C8leWnVXmwZm7EonAsFk+Gy/qfo1/1t4PuDXXjWdQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=xOY7VN/jJ3FqdtKU2xUcrnH75DzyunUWvFM8VrfNMo6TEU5+pFBITdSv0Wfgd19d7 vWx9MmljMHsM8hMS6MMzAinUzQ9nDC3HxQt6aUegPuYH1/2+bVPp17lTflip+2UsZJ CXRWFS4CqInlzx6+Z6pyYb56VnS3P0ep/8D6T6RU= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1371923195; i=@elandsys.com; bh=K7C8leWnVXmwZm7EonAsFk+Gy/qfo1/1t4PuDXXjWdQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=yGLC3uGt8z5EuQo4Fs1p2azLIArtxC1KeaWjPL21NT0fqcaI0jVrZjA0JukxvLPDu TSrKjq1vtHx7YLaDlBF+YPnn3Pgn+QpKfYvXEu+Rz/bQzZa4fzA1UdE6HlKUpLy6tz Yg/Khew8oMVrcKLavxQwBLk6kdJ3mW5+3WfE/LvM= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130622005050.0c49a998@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:04:46 -0700 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <0a7901ce6f07$95cf7b60$c16e7220$@olddog.co.uk> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> <0a7901ce6f07$95cf7b60$c16e7220$@olddog.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: ericas@irtf.org, Vinayak Hegde , Ines Robles Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:46:45 -0000 Hi Adrian, At 22:15 21-06-2013, Adrian Farrel wrote: >While we are patting each other on the back, thanks to SM for >introducing me to >Ines Robles who is now doing a fine job as working group secretary >for the ROLL >working group in the IETF even while still learning about the IETF. I'll copy this message to Ines. :-) >At the same time, if you ask one of the old-time US participants >about where to >hold IETF meetings, they will pretty much always whine about the pain and cost >of travel to locations outside of North America (but will put up >with Europe if >it is a good tourist location at a nice time of year). So, they *do* >understand >some (not all) of the pain of travel, but have a problem with projection and >empathy :-) Not surprising as a large percentage of the IETF are on >the autistic >spectrum!! Yes. >But, while thanking me is great, I also think you should be telling me I don't >do enough. Yes, I have tried to push this issue hard in the four years I have >been an AD. But, it is clear to me that this is not enough. I only ask for the impossible. As you have been able to do that I cannot say that you don't do enough. :-) >The rise in Chinese participation is a great success story. But is it clear to >me that this was driven just as much by industry in China being determined to >become a world player, than it was in any way driven by the IETF >becoming a more >welcoming place. Maybe the *effectiveness* of Chinese participation >was improved Yes. >by a number of people working hard in the IETF to provide education. Yet where >is the participation from Africa and South America? Why don't we see that? There are a number of people in the IETF who have worked hard to bring in participants from China. However, participation from China is not as effective as it could be. This is a guess. I would not consider all the countries of South America as similar. I expected more participation from South America. Most of the people from emerging regions I spent time with were from South America. I think that they can do a lot more within the IETF. My rough guess is that the IETF might have been trying to solve the problem the wrong way. I don't know the right way. Participation from Africa is depressing. If the IETF keep getting the wrong people it is not possible to do anything. >Actually, ISOC reports to me that a run-on from the ISOC policy >fellows program. >Apparently there are some moves from African nations who sent policy fellows a >few meetings ago (Paris, I think) to send engineers to the next few >meetings. I >don't kid myself this is more than a trickle, but one does have to start >somewhere. It's not going to work. :-) >The things that I am unable to help with are the things where I >don't know what >the problems are, and where I don't know what would help. I am going to guess >that holding an IETF in Cape Town would not be significantly easier for >participants from Morocco than an IETF in Paris. I am also going to guess that Yes. >an IETF in Israel would not be a great help for participants from Libya. But I Yes. :-) >am also going to make the bold statement that physical participation >should not >be our primary goal on day one (of course it would be wonderful and remains a >long-term aim). I want to work out how we raise awareness of the IETF, and how >we get people to start to participate via the mailing lists. There was a message from Thomas Narten to the diversity mailing list. I read it again yesterday and realized that I missed what he was saying. I think that there is part of what you would like to see in that message. I do not have a plan. The rough idea itself is very risky and has a very low probability of success. >A real dream would be to have an IETF working group formed entirely out of >remote participation (which would completely facilitate people in *any* >country). People post Internet-Drafts; there is a mailing list for >discussions; >a good consensus is built; the AD forms a working group; RFCs are published. The working group I am involved in did a variation of the above. We avoided physical participation as far as possible. It's an unusual case though. >There is zero reason why this should not happen. So what are we missing for >this? Answer: we lack active remote participants, and in particular, we lack >remote participants with pressing requirements that need to be solved and a >willingness/ability to articulate those problems. Yes. >Tell me please: what would it take? why doesn't this happen? Is it lack of >awareness/education about the IETF? Is it lack of technical skills? Is it >because all the problems are actually being solved anyway? Are there barriers >of language? There would have to be people who are committed to do the work. There would have to be working group chairs who you can blame when the work is not being done. There would have to be Area Directors who I can fire when their working groups do not deliver the work they are supposed to do. It is a lack of accountability. It is because the technical skills are not fully utilized. There is a language barrier even though we are both writing in English. All the problems are not being solved. We don't admit failure; we call it a success. If you have to spend four years trying hard to push an issue something is not right. >And please tell me what else is needed? Perhaps the way to look at this is to >draw up a wish-list and to try to order it by things that would make most >difference. Given that each new thing or process change costs (in >terms of time, >effort, and reduction in lifespan) it is worth us taking the time to pick off >the most valuable things first (although it may also be worth the time to pick >off low-hanging fruit as well). I like the idea of writing a list of things we would like to have and ordering the list by what would make the most difference. Somebody would have to pick the low-hanging fruit as his/her priority. Somebody would have to pick off the most valuable things first. I would not list getting more participation from emerging regions as the most valuable thing. After thinking about it for a minute I would order the pick off the most interesting thing first. I cannot think of anything interesting at the moment. Maybe I could pick the real dream (see above). Your message is interesting. I will read it again. Regards, S. Moonesamy From vinayakh@gmail.com Sun Jun 23 09:32:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C08521F8D90 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TeGO22SpSHnP for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F1821F9B32 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id um15so9908812pbc.38 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Df6J4JDMsUK54RM1hkOb81sYreM8p8sk6aZZnSnkE+Y=; b=ppVZ4llWeEulaZDMib394uNZ4NVoRONkZwHcx53s7vAOb3tC9c6ow1WF+JO6SJnF3v j9zcVpDBVnwPE/zlx+gtI9EaQ3ikDf+ctsF2z99EaZjKzuUoE0ML8VPqekby8rCWoSM6 wVNrYAa3QqVb5g91hIipZPrOOzPoxJrcOa+9UYohCKXv/xkcpIUrugIHXKIgJ6TJS3sX Fw5Eq9XuxeoJgcLlRMJfFs0SKfl7J80DiMwpHwkzh2cMgQNjvzVXj3ZRG7IfghW2uIoH Q1idAFv2J3z7BJJ7B2VpvpkzjAAZWG4vn7Ll7vUOq1dhQV9HTLTbeaPDGmOyj24lrsov p0ig== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.175.33 with SMTP id bx1mr20297299pbc.21.1372005114023; Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.232.233 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:31:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 22:01:53 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b2ae739a4204dfd4d539 Cc: Adrian Farrel , ericas@irtf.org Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 16:32:01 -0000 --047d7bd6b2ae739a4204dfd4d539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 2:51 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Vinayak, > > I am posting this message from an email address so that it is easy for you > to find out who pays me. You can determine whether my employer will derive > any benefit from what I say or do. Not sure why this is necessary. I am not doubting your intentions. > > That said, I have done a bit of travelling myself. Many people from the >> western world do not have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go >> through for something they take for granted (or even bother). Just ask >> someone young from a developing country who has >> > > I think that one of the problems is what you said above. People do not > have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go to and they take a lot > of things for granted. > This just came in the news - Indians visiting the UK will not have to deposit a 3000 British Pound bond to visit the UK. http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/indians-to-pay-3000-cash-bond-deposit-for-uk-visa/article4843455.ece Just to give an idea, this is 3 months (or more) salary for a mid-level engineer. Luckily it does not seem to apply for short visits like IETF meetings. -- Vinayak --047d7bd6b2ae739a4204dfd4d539 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 2:51 AM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Hi Vinayak,

I am posting this message from an email address so that it is easy for you = to find out who pays me. =A0You can determine whether my employer will deri= ve any benefit from what I say or do.

Not sure why thi= s is necessary. I am not doubting your intentions.
=A0

That said, I have done a bit of travelling myself. Many people from the wes= tern world do not have any idea about the amount of pain one has to go thro= ugh for something they take for granted (or even bother). Just ask someone = young from a developing country who has

I think that one of the problems is what you said above. =A0People do not h= ave any idea about the amount of pain one has to go to and they take a lot = of things for granted.

This just came in the news = - Indians visiting the UK will not have to deposit a 3000 British Pound bon= d to visit the UK.
http://www.thehindu.com/ne= ws/international/indians-to-pay-3000-cash-bond-deposit-for-uk-visa/article4= 843455.ece

Just to give an idea, this is 3 months (or more) salary for a mid-level= engineer. Luckily it does not seem to apply for short visits like IETF mee= tings.

-- Vinayak
--047d7bd6b2ae739a4204dfd4d539-- From jabley@hopcount.ca Mon Jun 24 10:38:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ericas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F5721E811C for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SxFq8sVBiUX8 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22a.google.com (mail-ie0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A602621E8148 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id e11so25754488iej.1 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopcount.ca; s=google; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=WxxQfWb1wvbBYy7CySKyBEh/HCA0fCITyUnm8gS/Y6A=; b=NGEZ4byPaIX9GCS083urCdDh+2ZFz0GMTlLqRFKYHlC/BJONv6Ejhi9EKYam9LWvDm FnbjFcf4IVe1YUeqiJT/xv47XLchBC6Xm5ULl7bth+91Kqndw1KkHUiQG505YFX6+hnD ahkUHsYBUFTdorHyLmbEckoxBo4s6nQ4aJnzg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=WxxQfWb1wvbBYy7CySKyBEh/HCA0fCITyUnm8gS/Y6A=; b=jCIOoxpS3nU2+LZa1m3wGNJuKo+46N44VIdQbuQZtTEB4Y4kvOxH3waCEQou+bR/0W 57VemlwlSKmALrRl4Utdtk9qqIqauxvM+Pt3AcQFU9BUKQZcVHuNkcvwG6wmUzwM9RVI TT29pAHuqoTFjms/Ljn3hS+ye7jdb0cblW3VnT/GRVR3NKyVD8iKBRLrX0n9us392y0D ndG9M3BGhk4GSHPnu5DR49Y+t/KrAF4DUhwNI/9taI7yxNu6cFplgpdH0dpgtPgCaq22 /DMEdVj+ZDnXf5tXqwapUJg5lO1DVbp5CFI0r7shE5sYPSvSoFZCW9FenRk+mfLxGgb/ Ghrg== X-Received: by 10.43.144.82 with SMTP id jp18mr8768540icc.100.1372095498220; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.254.50.227] ([64.235.96.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b6sm1041561igm.9.2013.06.24.10.38.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 13:38:10 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43630284-484C-440C-A638-E41E5FD8E337@hopcount.ca> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130621053830.07841938@elandsys.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20130621130457.06ea9e48@elandnews.com> To: Vinayak Hegde X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkYseRiNBlVZ84tb2+O4oPNg8kRgJFUMl0VViieSXbsyUI+ZBAEwAlYb9n2rUQNPm3NfF7D Cc: Adrian Farrel , ericas@irtf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [ericas] Western, individualist conception of things (was: A suggestion for the Tao of the IETF) X-BeenThere: ericas@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for \"Emerging Regions Internet Challenges And Solutions\" \(ERICAS\) " List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 17:38:23 -0000 On 2013-06-23, at 12:31, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > This just came in the news - Indians visiting the UK will not have to = deposit a 3000 British Pound bond to visit the UK. > = http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/indians-to-pay-3000-cash-bond-d= eposit-for-uk-visa/article4843455.ece Actually, the article suggests that Indians visiting the UK *will* have = to deposit a GBP 3000 bond. Joe