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From: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi>
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Re: Last Call: 'An IPv6 Prefix for Overlay Routable
	Cryptographic Hash Identifiers (ORCHID)' to Experimental RFC 
	(draft-laganier-ipv6-khi)
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Tailing down the Cc: a bit..

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Jari Arkko wrote:
> We are last calling this document for the second time, for
> two reasons. The first reason is to make sure that the
> last call has been circulated widely enough in the
> community.

I believe a document such as this is needed, though the allocation 
could be made from some other block; I don't have strong opinions on 
that.

At least Geoff asked whether these need to be drawn from the IPv6 
unicast block.  I'd like to better understand what would be the 
alternatives. Presumably this might refer to a different prefix such 
as ::/16. That might be better because that way it would be clearer 
that the prefixes are not meant to be routable as they would be more 
easily distinguished as special.  I'd suspect that at some point 
implementations or operators filter out most of ::/16 which might ease 
the leakage issues.

Others already commented about undefined 'temporary' allocation part.

A few comments,

In section 1.1:

 In practice, allocation of a separate
   prefix for ORCHIDs seems to suffice, making them compatible with IPv6
   addresses at the upper layers while simultaneously making it trivial
   to prevent their usage at the IP layer.

==> 'making it trivial' sounds too easy to be true.  How exactly do you
prevent their usage at the IP layer -- by filtering source/destination
addresses of the prefix coming in/going out of the wire?  But that was
exactly what you prohibited from doing (by default).  What you seem to be
saying that it might be trivial to prevent IP layer usage _at the consenting
hosts_, but the current statement is broader than that and causes potential
problems as Ted Hardie and maybe others pointed out.

In section 2,

   Encode_n( ): An extraction function which output is obtained by
                extracting the middle 100-bits long bitstring from the  
                argument bitstring.

==> I don't understand what you mean by "the middle 100-bits long
bitstring".  The sentence doesn't seem to parse very well.  I also don't
understand what "middle" might mean here -- it'd probably require a more
specific definition if it stays.

7.  IANA Considerations

==> draft-huston-ipv6-iana-specials includes a list of things IANA 
needs to know (updated slightly by RFC-editor note in the 
announcement) in Section 3.  I believe this is something that every 
requestor should fill in the document itself rather than leave it to 
be done during the IANA stage.  If that process is used here, it might 
be useful to include a filled template in this section.

   We propose sharing the name space introduced for CGA Type Tags.
   Hence, defining new values would follow the rules of Section 8 of  
   [RFC3972], i.e., on a First Come First Served basis.  The policy will
   require updating the policy for assignment in the CGA Message Type 
   name space.

==> I'm not sure if I understand the last sentence.  First of all, you refer
first to 'CGA Type Tags' and then 'CGA Message Type name space'.  Do 
you refer to the same thing or not?  I assume yes (please reword): if 
so, it's not clear why the assignment policy requires updating as it's 
already FCFS.  Further, even if it did, you use passive voice -- it 
isn't clear if this document is meant to update the policy (but 
doesn't adequately specify that), or whether that is done later.


editorial
---------

   As of today, SHA1 [RFC3174] is considered as satisfying the second-
   preimage resistance requirement Hash output of 100 bits is considered
   to have a low enough probability of collisions.

==> period missing before 'Hash'.

   [RFC3513]  Hinden, R. and S. Deering, "Internet Protocol Version 6   
              (IPv6) Addressing Architecture", RFC 3513, April 2003.

==> RFC4291 is a later version of this.

   [Hi3]      Nikander, P., Arkko, J., and B. Ohlman, "Host Identity
              Indirection Infrastructure (Hi3)", November 2004.

  [NodeID]   Ahlgren, B., Arkko, J., Eggert, L., and J. Rajahalme, "A
              Node Identity Internetworking Architecture (NodeID)",
              April 2006.

==> it wouldn't hurt if the reference was a bit more specific.  I guess
these are scientific publications.  The journal/conference should at 
least be mentioned.  URL is optional.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Petri Jokela wrote:

(apologies for the rather long delay, but I believe there was no comment 
on the two last open issues)

> List of issues that I do not necessarily require immediate actions or
> that I haven't modified:
> 
> 
> 16. Risk with using the same D-H value and random puzzle
> 
> "The security consideration section indicates there is a risk in using
> the same D-H value and random puzzle, but it does not describe what the
> risk is.  This makes it difficult to balance with the tradeoff
> described. "
> 
> - I haven't made any modifications related to this. Any input for this?

With fixed puzzles, an initiating attacker does not have to calculate 
cookies after the first R1. Combined with reused D-H key, the initiating 
attacker can use prebuilt I2 messages and thus avoid also signature 
calculation. This way, the attacker exchanges I1 and R1, and then 
infinitely send I2 messages, forcing the responder to verify the I2 
signatures and calculate new R2 messages.

The responder has state at this point (R2-SENT) and can implement caching 
of sent R2 messages. However, the caching is only valid until the prebuilt 
R1 message pool is refreshed and the received I2 remains the same. Also, 
the responder can go to ESTABLISHED after timeouting in R2-SENT, but it 
still has to accept the I2 packets in this state. As an alternative 
implementation strategy, the responder may also implement "fair" rate 
control for incoming R1 packets that guarantees valid initiators to be 
served eventually.

> 17. Sigma
> 
> "The draft claims to be based on the SIGMA exchange.  While it is similar
> there are some differences.  In particular the signature on the
> responder's exponential is not required to be validated.
> I think it looks OK since the last MAC is signed by the responder, but it 
> would probably be good to have another set of eyes look at it. "

The R1 signature covers the responder's exponential. The MAC in R2 is derived 
using the exponential and the signature covers the MAC, so I don't see a 
problem.

The original discussion is here:

http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hipsec/current/msg00922.html

I could stop here, but I analyzed the SIGMA compliancy slightly further. I 
would actually claim that the base exchange is a hybrid of "basic ISO KE" 
and "basic SIGMA" of the SIGMA paper, which are both secure according to 
the SIGMA paper.

Both the basic ISO and basic SIGMA have three messages, but HIP has four. 
The difference is the extra I1 "trigger" packet in the beginning of base 
exchange that allows responder to be stateless. The trigger packet can be 
added also to the beginning of the ISO and SIGMA protocols, which just 
"reverts" the roles of the peers. Below, I am assuming that both ISO and 
SIGMA are modified to have the extra trigger packet in the beginning, just 
to match the base exchange packet numbers.

>From ISO, base exchange inherits the "intended recipient property" which 
means that the public keys are exposed earlier than in SIGMA (i.e. in the 
first messages). This, and the derivation of HITs from public keys 
especially for the otherwise unprotected trigger packet, protects the 
initiator from attacks where middleman is able to modify the packet. With 
the use of opportunistic HIP, the "intented recipient property" (which 
"degrades" base exchange to level of SIGMA), but this is not in primary 
scope of the base draft anymore.

Optional public key protection against active attacks is provided as 
described in "identity protection variant of the ISO protocol" in the 
SIGMA paper. In short, the initiator encrypts the public key and makes use 
of hashes (HITs). I believe this might be subject to crypto analysis and 
may not provide as strong identity protection as SIGMA-I and SIGMA-R, 
because those encrypt also the signatures and MACs.

>From SIGMA, the base exchange borrows the use of MACs. The main use of 
MACs in SIGMA is to "decouple the authentication of the DH exponentials 
from the binding of key and identities". However, since public keys are 
sent in plaintext (with the exception that initiator *can* encrypt it), 
the decoupling possibility introduced by MACs is not really used in HIP. 
IMHO, the MAC of I2 acts mainly as light-weight signature that provides 
some guarantee for the responder that the time-consuming DSA/RSA signature 
is worth of verifying. This increases the DoS protection for the 
responder. Despite the current limited use of the MAC, it allows extending 
the base exchange v2 towards SIGMA-I and SIGMA-R in my view.

HIP differs from SIGMA and ISO in the way the signatures and exponentials 
are used. In SIGMA and ISO, a signature covers both initiator and 
responder exponentials within the same signature. In both ISO and SIGMA, a 
signature covers explicitly both two exponentials. In HIP, a signature 
covers only a single exponential explicitly. However, we must remember 
that (1) the HITs affect the MAC key derivation and (2) HITs are covered 
by the signatures. Putting (1) and (2) together assures an "implicit" 
binding between the exponentials.

-- 
Miika Komu                                       http://www.iki.fi/miika/

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Authors of the drafts below,



Gonzalo Camarillo wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> our new charter has been approved and will be posted soon. The new
> charter has three new milestones:
> 
> 1) Legacy NAT Traversal
> 2) Legacy Application Interworking
> 3) Native API
> 
> We intend to use the following drafts as starting points for their
> respective milestones:
> 
> 1) draft-schmitt-hip-nat-traversal-02.txt
> 2) draft-henderson-hip-applications-03.txt
> 3) draft-komu-shim-native-api-00.txt
> 
> If somebody disagrees with making these drafts WG items, please let us 
> know.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gonzalo
> HIP co-chair
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hipsec mailing list
> Hipsec@lists.ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec
> 


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Authors of the drafts below,

draft-schmitt-hip-nat-traversal-02.txt
draft-henderson-hip-applications-03.txt
draft-komu-shim-native-api-00.txt

given that nobody has objected, could you please submit a new revision 
of these drafts as HIP WG items? Please, copy the chairs in your 
submission so that we can approve them.

We would also like to encourage mailing list discussions on these new WG 
items, which relate to the three new milestones in our charter.

http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/hip-charter.html

Thanks,

Gonzalo
HIP co-chair

Gonzalo Camarillo wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> our new charter has been approved and will be posted soon. The new
> charter has three new milestones:
> 
> 1) Legacy NAT Traversal
> 2) Legacy Application Interworking
> 3) Native API
> 
> We intend to use the following drafts as starting points for their
> respective milestones:
> 
> 1) draft-schmitt-hip-nat-traversal-02.txt
> 2) draft-henderson-hip-applications-03.txt
> 3) draft-komu-shim-native-api-00.txt
> 
> If somebody disagrees with making these drafts WG items, please let us 
> know.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gonzalo
> HIP co-chair
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hipsec mailing list
> Hipsec@lists.ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec
> 


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: HIP Extensions for the Traversal of Network Address Translators
	Author(s)	: V. Schmitt, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-hip-nat-traversal-00.txt
	Pages		: 33
	Date		: 2006-11-22
	
   This document specifies extensions to Host Identity Protocol (HIP) to
   support traversal of Network Address Translator (NAT) middleboxes.
   The traversal mechanism tunnels HIP control and data traffic over UDP
   and enables HIP initiators which MAY be behind NATs to contact HIP
   responders which MAY be behind another NAT.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Native Application Programming Interfaces for SHIM Layer Prococols
	Author(s)	: M. Komu
	Filename	: draft-ietf-hip-native-api-00.txt
	Pages		: 21
	Date		: 2006-11-22
	
   This document proposes extensions to the current networking APIs for
   protocols based on identifier/locator split.  Currently, the document
   focuses on HIP, but the extensions can be used also by other
   protocols similar "shim" layer protocols.  Using the API extensions,
   new SHIM aware applications can gain a better control of the SHIM
   layer and endpoint identifiers.  For example, the applications can
   query and set SHIM related attributes, or specify their own endpoint
   identifiers for a host.  In addition, a new indirection element
   called endpoint descriptor is defined for SHIM aware applications.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Using HIP with Legacy Applications
	Author(s)	: T. Henderson, P. Nikander
	Filename	: draft-ietf-hip-applications-00.txt
	Pages		: 12
	Date		: 2006-11-26
	
   The Host Identity Protocol and architecture (HIP) proposes to add a
   cryptographic name space for network stack names.  From an
   application viewpoint, HIP-enabled systems support a new address
   family (e.g., AF_HOST), but it may be a long time until such HIP-
   aware applications are widely deployed even if host systems are
   upgraded.  This informational document discusses implementation and
   API issues relating to using HIP in situations in which the system is 
   HIP-aware but the applications are not.



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