From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:03:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBE5120077; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 23:11:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hipsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hipsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <158131871488.13534.8940599425928554380@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:11:54 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:11:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF. Title : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) Authors : Robert Moskowitz Rene Hummen Miika Komu Filename : draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt Pages : 57 Date : 2020-02-09 Abstract: This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2). The HIP DEX protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and hash functions. The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory- constrained sensor/actuator devices. Like HIPv2, it is expected to be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer protocol data. Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS), and MUST only be used on devices where PFS is prohibitively expensive. In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for IEEE 802.15.4 networks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:07:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842821200FB for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 05:31:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTpzbxuW67Gk for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 05:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 807A21200A4 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 05:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0498162133 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:31:05 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id fK-tsPS5nFfN for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71E1960029 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:30:57 -0500 (EST) References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: HIP From: Robert Moskowitz X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:30:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FF525251594710F64BEA8E79" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:31:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FF525251594710F64BEA8E79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe this version answers all the IESG issues. Please review, there are some important additions. EKR had a number of security concerns.  Some I feel don't apply to HIP, like use an AEAD for HIP packet security. But there are a number of added sections, particularly in Security Considerations that are worth the group's review that I have things stated properly. Also there is a new parameter, I_NONCE to add Initiator randomness into the Master Key generation.  There is some cleanup in the KEYMAT section to reflect this. So please take a read through. Thank you -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:11:55 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Robert Moskowitz , Rene Hummen , Miika Komu A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt has been successfully submitted by Miika Komu and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-hip-dex Revision: 12 Title: HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) Document date: 2020-02-09 Group: hip Pages: 57 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-12 Abstract: This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2). The HIP DEX protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and hash functions. The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory- constrained sensor/actuator devices. Like HIPv2, it is expected to be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer protocol data. Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS), and MUST only be used on devices where PFS is prohibitively expensive. In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for IEEE 802.15.4 networks. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------FF525251594710F64BEA8E79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe this version answers all the IESG issues.

Please review, there are some important additions.

EKR had a number of security concerns.  Some I feel don't apply to HIP, like use an AEAD for HIP packet security.

But there are a number of added sections, particularly in Security Considerations that are worth the group's review that I have things stated properly.

Also there is a new parameter, I_NONCE to add Initiator randomness into the Master Key generation.  There is some cleanup in the KEYMAT section to reflect this.

So please take a read through.

Thank you


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:11:55 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>, Rene Hummen <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt
has been successfully submitted by Miika Komu and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-ietf-hip-dex
Revision: 12
Title: HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)
Document date: 2020-02-09
Group: hip
Pages: 57
URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12
Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-12

Abstract:
This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2). The
HIP DEX protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and hash
functions.

The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
constrained sensor/actuator devices. Like HIPv2, it is expected to
be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
protocol data. Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Perfect
Forward Secrecy (PFS), and MUST only be used on devices where PFS is
prohibitively expensive. In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
IEEE 802.15.4 networks.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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Gonzalo From nobody Wed Feb 12 09:20:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B056120907 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:20:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4NTkeL5qkQGQ for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from out.west.exch081.serverdata.net (cas081-co-1.exch081.serverdata.net [199.193.204.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2044C1208FF for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX081-W5-CO-2.exch081.serverpod.net (10.224.129.85) by MBX081-W5-CO-2 (10.224.129.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:20:10 -0800 Received: from MBX081-W5-CO-2.exch081.serverpod.net ([10.224.129.85]) by MBX081-W5-CO-2.exch081.serverpod.net ([10.224.129.85]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.000; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:20:10 -0800 From: Jeff Ahrenholz To: Robert Moskowitz , HIP Thread-Topic: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHV4C5DLFeDBA4SN0GWJkS6qi8vwagX0P2A Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:20:10 +0000 Message-ID: <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [216.168.34.194] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <986FDDA36E409F4AB8A8F51E7AD6C7B7@exch081.serverpod.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:20:15 -0000 PiBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhpcyB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuc3dlcnMgYWxsIHRoZSBJRVNHIGlzc3Vlcy4NCj4N Cj4gUGxlYXNlIHJldmlldywgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHNvbWUgaW1wb3J0YW50IGFkZGl0aW9ucy4NCj4N Cj4gRUtSIGhhZCBhIG51bWJlciBvZiBzZWN1cml0eSBjb25jZXJucy4gIFNvbWUgSSBmZWVsIGRv bid0IGFwcGx5IHRvIEhJUCwgbGlrZSB1c2UgYW4gQUVBRCBmb3IgSElQIHBhY2tldCBzZWN1cml0 eS4NCj4NCj4gQnV0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBhIG51bWJlciBvZiBhZGRlZCBzZWN0aW9ucywgcGFydGlj dWxhcmx5IGluIFNlY3VyaXR5IENvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIHRoYXQgYXJlIHdvcnRoIHRoZSBncm91 cCdzIHJldmlldyB0aGF0IEkgaGF2ZSB0aGluZ3Mgc3RhdGVkIHByb3Blcmx5Lg0KPg0KPiBBbHNv IHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgbmV3IHBhcmFtZXRlciwgSV9OT05DRSB0byBhZGQgSW5pdGlhdG9yIHJhbmRv bW5lc3MgaW50byB0aGUgTWFzdGVyIEtleSBnZW5lcmF0aW9uLiAgVGhlcmUgaXMgc29tZSBjbGVh bnVwIGluIHRoZSBLRVlNQVQgc2VjdGlvbiB0byByZWZsZWN0IHRoaXMuDQo+DQo+IFNvIHBsZWFz ZSB0YWtlIGEgcmVhZCB0aHJvdWdoLg0KDQpJIHRvb2sgYSBsb29rIGF0IHRoZSBuZXcgSV9OT05D RSBwYXJhbWV0ZXIuLi4NCg0KUmVnYXJkaW5nIHRoaXMgc3RhdGVtZW50IChTZWN0aW9uIDUuMi42 KToNCiJUaGUgSV9OT05DRSBwYXJhbWV0ZXIgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGVzIGEgcmFuZG9tIHZhbHVlIHRo YXQgaXMgbGF0ZXIgdXNlZCBpbiB0aGUgTWFzdGVyIGtleSBjcmVhdGlvbiBwcm9jZXNzIChzZWUg U2VjdGlvbiA2LjMpLiINCg0KTG9va2luZyBhdCBTZWN0aW9uIDYuMyBISVAgREVYIEtFWU1BVCBH ZW5lcmF0aW9uLCBpdCBkaXNjdXNzZXMgdXNpbmcgRGlmZmllLUhlbGxtYW4gZGVyaXZlZCBrZXkg S2lqLCBidXQgSSBkb24ndCBzZWUgYW55dGhpbmcgYWJvdXQgdXNpbmcgSV9OT05DRS4gVGhlcmUg aXMgYSByYW5kb20gI0kgIHByb3ZpZGVkIGJ5IHRoZSBSZXNwb25kZXIgZnJvbSB0aGUgUFVaWkxF IHBhcmFtZXRlciwgYnV0IG5vdGhpbmcgYWJvdXQgYSByYW5kb20gSV9OT05DRSBzdXBwbGllZCBi eSB0aGUgSW5pdGlhdG9yLg0KDQptaW5vciBuaXRzOg0Kcy93aGVuIGtleSBpcyBzbWFsbGVyIG9y IGVxdWFsIHRvIDEyOCBiaXRzL3doZW4gdGhlIGtleSBpcyBzbWFsbGVyIG9yIGVxdWFsIHRvIDEy OCBiaXRzLw0KSW4gU2VjdGlvbiA0LjEuMSBISVAgUHV6emxlIE1lY2hhbmlzbSwgdGhlIGxpbmtz IChIVE1MIHZlcnNpb24pIHRvIFJGQyA3NDAxIHNlY3Rpb25zIDQuMS4xIGFuZCA0LjEuMiBkbyBu b3QgbGluayB0byBSRkMgNzQwMSBidXQgdG8gdGhlIGRleCBkcmFmdC4NCg0KLUplZmYNCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Feb 12 09:36:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B87E12098C for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:36:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q4-A_DCUXokC for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 746EA12094B for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384D562132; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:36:43 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 96yoPs89smMp; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2DF360029; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:36:37 -0500 (EST) To: Jeff Ahrenholz , HIP References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:36:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:36:52 -0000 On 2/12/20 12:20 PM, Jeff Ahrenholz wrote: >> I believe this version answers all the IESG issues. >> >> Please review, there are some important additions. >> >> EKR had a number of security concerns. Some I feel don't apply to HIP, like use an AEAD for HIP packet security. >> >> But there are a number of added sections, particularly in Security Considerations that are worth the group's review that I have things stated properly. >> >> Also there is a new parameter, I_NONCE to add Initiator randomness into the Master Key generation. There is some cleanup in the KEYMAT section to reflect this. >> >> So please take a read through. > I took a look at the new I_NONCE parameter... > > Regarding this statement (Section 5.2.6): > "The I_NONCE parameter encapsulates a random value that is later used in the Master key creation process (see Section 6.3)." > > Looking at Section 6.3 HIP DEX KEYMAT Generation, it discusses using Diffie-Hellman derived key Kij, but I don't see anything about using I_NONCE. There is a random #I provided by the Responder from the PUZZLE parameter, but nothing about a random I_NONCE supplied by the Initiator. In 6.3:        IKM       Input keying material                    the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the                      random I_NONCE value for the Master Key SA                    the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the                      random values of the ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in                      the same order as the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R)                      for the Pair-wise Key SA > minor nits: > s/when key is smaller or equal to 128 bits/when the key is smaller or equal to 128 bits/ > In Section 4.1.1 HIP Puzzle Mechanism, the links (HTML version) to RFC 7401 sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 do not link to RFC 7401 but to the dex draft. I will look at this one again. Back later on it. From nobody Wed Feb 12 09:50:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B4212094A for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:50:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MnZ4-xY0JKGu for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from out.west.exch081.serverdata.net (cas081-co-1.exch081.serverdata.net [199.193.204.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8231120805 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX081-W5-CO-2.exch081.serverpod.net (10.224.129.85) by MBX081-W5-CO-1 (10.224.129.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:50:28 -0800 Received: from MBX081-W5-CO-2.exch081.serverpod.net ([10.224.129.85]) by MBX081-W5-CO-2.exch081.serverpod.net ([10.224.129.85]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.000; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:50:29 -0800 From: Jeff Ahrenholz To: Robert Moskowitz , HIP Thread-Topic: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHV4C5DLFeDBA4SN0GWJkS6qi8vwagX0P2AgACKtID//33EAA== Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:50:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [216.168.34.194] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <168BA904A16F284194288CFC6F8FB62F@exch081.serverpod.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." 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Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:11:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id liu0BaRNgm2T for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BD7C12013D for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C5962132; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:11:28 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id UFDZ9DYzX4JK; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83E2660029; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:11:20 -0500 (EST) To: Jeff Ahrenholz , HIP , Miika Komu References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:11:13 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] Something wrong in -12 Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:11:33 -0000 On 2/12/20 12:50 PM, Jeff Ahrenholz wrote: >>> Looking at Section 6.3 HIP DEX KEYMAT Generation, it discusses >>> using Diffie-Hellman derived key Kij, but I don't see anything >>> about using I_NONCE. There is a random #I provided by the >>> Responder from the PUZZLE parameter, but nothing about a >>> random I_NONCE supplied by the Initiator. >> >> In 6.3: >> >> IKM Input keying material >> the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the >> random I_NONCE value for the Master Key SA >> the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the >> random values of the ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in >> the same order as the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) >> for the Pair-wise Key SA The key derivation for the Master Key SA employs always both the >> Extract and Expand phases. The Pair-wise Key SA needs only the >> Extract phase when key is smaller or equal to 128 bits, but otherwise >> requires also the Expand phase. >> >> The CKDF-Extract function is the following operation: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moskowitz, et al. Expires August 15, 2020 [Page 32] >> >> Internet-Draft HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) February 2020 >> >> >> CKDF-Extract(I, IKM, info) -> PRK >> >> Inputs: >> I Random #I, provided by the Responder, from the PUZZLE >> parameter >> >> IKM Input keying material >> the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the >> random I_NONCE value for the Master Key SA >> the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the >> random values of the ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in >> the same order as the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) >> for the Pair-wise Key SA >> >> info sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) | "CKDF-Extract" >> where "CKDF-Extract" is an octet string >> >> Output: >> PRK a pseudorandom key (of RHASH_len/8 octets) >> >> >> The pseudorandom key PRK is calculated as follows: >> >> PRK = CMAC(I, IKM | info) >> >> The CKDF-Expand function is the following operation: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moskowitz, et al. Expires August 15, 2020 [Page 33] >> >> Internet-Draft HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) February 2020 >> >> >> CKDF-Expand(PRK, info, L) -> OKM >> >> Inputs: >> PRK a pseudorandom key of at least RHASH_len/8 octets >> (either the output from the extract step or the >> concatenation of the random values of the >> ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as the >> HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) in case of no extract) >> info sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) | "CKDF-Expand" >> where "CKDF-Expand" is an octet string >> L length of output keying material in octets >> (<= 255*RHASH_len/8) >> >> Output: >> OKM output keying material (of L octets) >> >> The output keying material OKM is calculated as follows: >> >> N = ceil(L/(RHASH_len/8)) >> T = T(1) | T(2) | T(3) | ... | T(N) >> OKM = first L octets of T >> >> where >> >> T(0) = empty string (zero length) >> T(1) = CMAC(PRK, T(0) | info | 0x01) >> T(2) = CMAC(PRK, T(1) | info | 0x02) >> T(3) = CMAC(PRK, T(2) | info | 0x03) >> ... >> > > Is this a new table row, or maybe something happened to the output? Look at it in the draft, it does not format so well in a message. > It looks good. > > In the dex-12 html/text versions I'm seeing the following text, which does not list IKM or info inputs for CKDF-Extract: > > > The CKDF-Extract function is the following operation: > > CKDF-Extract(I, IKM, info) -> PRK > > Inputs: > I Random #I, provided by the Responder, from the PUZZLE > parameter > > The CKDF-Expand function is the following operation: > > > > > Moskowitz, et al. Expires August 12, 2020 [Page 32] > > > Internet-Draft HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) February 2020 > > > CKDF-Expand(PRK, info, L) -> OKM > > Inputs: > PRK a pseudorandom key of at least RHASH_len/8 octets > (either the output from the extract step or the > concatenation of the random values of the > ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as the > HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) in case of no extract) > info sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) | "CKDF-Expand" > where "CKDF-Expand" is an octet string > L length of output keying material in octets > (<= 255*RHASH_len/8) > Oh, oh.  I checked https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt and you are right and it is wrong. Miika?  Something went wrong from what I sent and what got posted. Here is what I have from running xml2rfc locally on the xml: =============================================    The key derivation for the Master Key SA employs always both the    Extract and Expand phases.  The Pair-wise Key SA needs only the    Extract phase when key is smaller or equal to 128 bits, but otherwise    requires also the Expand phase.    The CKDF-Extract function is the following operation: Moskowitz, et al.        Expires August 15, 2020               [Page 32] Internet-Draft           HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)           February 2020      CKDF-Extract(I, IKM, info) -> PRK      Inputs:        I         Random #I, provided by the Responder, from the PUZZLE                  parameter        IKM       Input keying material                    the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the                      random I_NONCE value for the Master Key SA                    the Diffie-Hellman derived key, concatenated with the                      random values of the ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in                      the same order as the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R)                      for the Pair-wise Key SA        info      sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) | "CKDF-Extract"                  where "CKDF-Extract" is an octet string      Output:        PRK       a pseudorandom key (of RHASH_len/8 octets)    The pseudorandom key PRK is calculated as follows:        PRK     = CMAC(I, IKM | info)    The CKDF-Expand function is the following operation: Moskowitz, et al.        Expires August 15, 2020               [Page 33] Internet-Draft           HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)           February 2020      CKDF-Expand(PRK, info, L) -> OKM      Inputs:        PRK       a pseudorandom key of at least RHASH_len/8 octets                  (either the output from the extract step or the                  concatenation of the random values of the                  ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as the                  HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) in case of no extract)        info      sort(HIT-I | HIT-R) | "CKDF-Expand"                  where "CKDF-Expand" is an octet string        L         length of output keying material in octets                  (<= 255*RHASH_len/8)      Output:        OKM        output keying material (of L octets)    The output keying material OKM is calculated as follows:        N       =  ceil(L/(RHASH_len/8))        T       =  T(1) | T(2) | T(3) | ... | T(N)        OKM     =  first L octets of T    where        T(0) = empty string (zero length)        T(1) = CMAC(PRK, T(0) | info | 0x01)        T(2) = CMAC(PRK, T(1) | info | 0x02)        T(3) = CMAC(PRK, T(2) | info | 0x03)        ... From nobody Thu Feb 13 06:45:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4411012011D for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:45:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 93S2db9uegGJ for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D803B1200E0 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2896213F; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:45:30 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id JryhOTOsf6Pt; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F89862133; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:45:25 -0500 (EST) To: Jeff Ahrenholz , HIP References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> <8DF43CD7-A082-4D17-A2D3-E560CA3833A7@tempered.io> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:45:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8DF43CD7-A082-4D17-A2D3-E560CA3833A7@tempered.io> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:45:33 -0000 On 2/12/20 11:48 AM, Jeff Ahrenholz wrote: >> I believe this version answers all the IESG issues. >> >> Please review, there are some important additions. >> >> EKR had a number of security concerns.  Some I feel don't apply to HIP, like use an AEAD for HIP packet security. >> >> But there are a number of added sections, particularly in Security Considerations that are worth the group's review that I have things stated properly. >> >> Also there is a new parameter, I_NONCE to add Initiator randomness into the Master Key generation.  There is some cleanup in the KEYMAT section to reflect this. >> >> So please take a read through. > I took a look at the new I_NONCE parameter... > > Regarding this statement (Section 5.2.6): > "The I_NONCE parameter encapsulates a random value that is later used in the Master key creation process (see Section 6.3)." > > Looking at Section 6.3 HIP DEX KEYMAT Generation, it discusses using Diffie-Hellman derived key Kij, but I don't see anything about using I_NONCE. There is a random #I provided by the Responder from the PUZZLE parameter, but nothing about a random I_NONCE supplied by the Initiator. The problem is the loss of text in sec 6.3, not sec 5.2.6.  We found the problem is a bug in the submission tool.  One way or another we will get the complete text in sec 6.3 in the next draft. > minor nits: > s/when key is smaller or equal to 128 bits/when the key is smaller or equal to 128 bits/ Fixed, thanks. > In Section 4.1.1 HIP Puzzle Mechanism, the links (HTML version) to RFC 7401 sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 do not link to RFC 7401 but to the dex draft. That is a submission tool bug.  I will work with the developers on it. From nobody Thu Feb 13 07:56:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18BA120121 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:56:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tj_wAiHRmYWj for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FE2C12012A for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BE16213F; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:56:29 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3UcN8ZpF9TF1; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E238D62133; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:56:19 -0500 (EST) To: Jeff Ahrenholz , HIP References: <158131871520.13534.9437394233256375155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <29372f3d-0a9e-949d-ce64-338be8561500@htt-consult.com> <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:56:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66046762-C4F2-47AD-BE69-7CAA1AEB6F2A@tempered.io> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-hip-dex-12.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:56:33 -0000 On 2/12/20 12:20 PM, Jeff Ahrenholz wrote: >> I believe this version answers all the IESG issues. >> >> Please review, there are some important additions. >> >> EKR had a number of security concerns. Some I feel don't apply to HIP, like use an AEAD for HIP packet security. >> >> But there are a number of added sections, particularly in Security Considerations that are worth the group's review that I have things stated properly. >> >> Also there is a new parameter, I_NONCE to add Initiator randomness into the Master Key generation. There is some cleanup in the KEYMAT section to reflect this. >> >> So please take a read through. > I took a look at the new I_NONCE parameter... > > Regarding this statement (Section 5.2.6): > "The I_NONCE parameter encapsulates a random value that is later used in the Master key creation process (see Section 6.3)." > > Looking at Section 6.3 HIP DEX KEYMAT Generation, it discusses using Diffie-Hellman derived key Kij, but I don't see anything about using I_NONCE. There is a random #I provided by the Responder from the PUZZLE parameter, but nothing about a random I_NONCE supplied by the Initiator. > > minor nits: > s/when key is smaller or equal to 128 bits/when the key is smaller or equal to 128 bits/ > In Section 4.1.1 HIP Puzzle Mechanism, the links (HTML version) to RFC 7401 sections 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 do not link to RFC 7401 but to the dex draft. This is the fault of the tool that takes the ID txt to generate the html.  Currently, this is NOT done from the xml, so changing the xml will not help.  Once approved for RFC, the RFC editor will make sure all html is right.  So we just have to live with this for now.  The problem is not ours and there are no reasonable changes we can make to the text to get the html right for the draft. Humph. From nobody Fri Feb 14 06:33:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEEF120041; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:33:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hipsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hipsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <158169080958.16293.4473868281358122424@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:33:29 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-dex-13.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:33:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF. Title : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) Authors : Robert Moskowitz Rene Hummen Miika Komu Filename : draft-ietf-hip-dex-13.txt Pages : 58 Date : 2020-02-14 Abstract: This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2). The HIP DEX protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and hash functions. The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory- constrained sensor/actuator devices. Like HIPv2, it is expected to be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer protocol data. Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS), and MUST only be used on devices where PFS is prohibitively expensive. In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for IEEE 802.15.4 networks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-13 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-13 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-13 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Feb 14 06:38:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DE1D1200E6 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:38:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dlTQ4whCFdRj for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10072.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 692DC120041 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:38:16 -0000 SGksDQoNCmtlLCAyMDIwLTAyLTEyIGtlbGxvIDE3OjIwICswMDAwLCBKZWZmIEFocmVuaG9seiBr aXJqb2l0dGk6DQo+ID4gSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoaXMgdmVyc2lvbiBhbnN3ZXJzIGFsbCB0aGUgSUVT RyBpc3N1ZXMuDQo+ID4gDQo+ID4gUGxlYXNlIHJldmlldywgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHNvbWUgaW1wb3J0 YW50IGFkZGl0aW9ucy4NCj4gPiANCj4gPiBFS1IgaGFkIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHNlY3VyaXR5IGNv bmNlcm5zLiAgU29tZSBJIGZlZWwgZG9uJ3QgYXBwbHkgdG8NCj4gPiBISVAsIGxpa2UgdXNlIGFu IEFFQUQgZm9yIEhJUCBwYWNrZXQgc2VjdXJpdHkuDQo+ID4gDQo+ID4gQnV0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBh IG51bWJlciBvZiBhZGRlZCBzZWN0aW9ucywgcGFydGljdWxhcmx5IGluIFNlY3VyaXR5DQo+ID4g Q29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgdGhhdCBhcmUgd29ydGggdGhlIGdyb3VwJ3MgcmV2aWV3IHRoYXQgSSBo YXZlIHRoaW5ncw0KPiA+IHN0YXRlZCBwcm9wZXJseS4NCj4gPiANCj4gPiBBbHNvIHRoZXJlIGlz IGEgbmV3IHBhcmFtZXRlciwgSV9OT05DRSB0byBhZGQgSW5pdGlhdG9yIHJhbmRvbW5lc3MNCj4g PiBpbnRvIHRoZSBNYXN0ZXIgS2V5IGdlbmVyYXRpb24uICBUaGVyZSBpcyBzb21lIGNsZWFudXAg aW4gdGhlDQo+ID4gS0VZTUFUIHNlY3Rpb24gdG8gcmVmbGVjdCB0aGlzLg0KPiA+IA0KPiA+IFNv IHBsZWFzZSB0YWtlIGEgcmVhZCB0aHJvdWdoLg0KPiANCj4gSSB0b29rIGEgbG9vayBhdCB0aGUg bmV3IElfTk9OQ0UgcGFyYW1ldGVyLi4uDQo+IA0KPiBSZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhpcyBzdGF0ZW1lbnQg KFNlY3Rpb24gNS4yLjYpOg0KPiAiVGhlIElfTk9OQ0UgcGFyYW1ldGVyIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRlcyBh IHJhbmRvbSB2YWx1ZSB0aGF0IGlzIGxhdGVyIHVzZWQNCj4gaW4gdGhlIE1hc3RlciBrZXkgY3Jl YXRpb24gcHJvY2VzcyAoc2VlIFNlY3Rpb24gNi4zKS4iDQo+IA0KPiBMb29raW5nIGF0IFNlY3Rp b24gNi4zIEhJUCBERVggS0VZTUFUIEdlbmVyYXRpb24sIGl0IGRpc2N1c3NlcyB1c2luZw0KPiBE aWZmaWUtSGVsbG1hbiBkZXJpdmVkIGtleSBLaWosIGJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IHNlZSBhbnl0aGluZyBh Ym91dCB1c2luZw0KPiBJX05PTkNFLiBUaGVyZSBpcyBhIHJhbmRvbSAjSSAgcHJvdmlkZWQgYnkg dGhlIFJlc3BvbmRlciBmcm9tIHRoZQ0KPiBQVVpaTEUgcGFyYW1ldGVyLCBidXQgbm90aGluZyBh Ym91dCBhIHJhbmRvbSBJX05PTkNFIHN1cHBsaWVkIGJ5IHRoZQ0KPiBJbml0aWF0b3IuDQoNCnRo YW5rcyBmb3IgY2F0Y2hpbmcgdGhpcyEgVGhpcyBvY2N1cnJlZCBkdWUgdG8gYSBodG1sIGNvbW1l bnQgaW5zaWRlIGENCmZpZ3VyZSAoeG1sMnJmYyB0ZWFtIGlzIHdvcmtpbmcgb24gYSBmaXgpLiBI ZXJlIGlzIHRoZSBmaXhlZCBkb2N1bWVudDoNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s L2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtaGlwLWRleC0xMyNzZWN0aW9uLTYuMw0KDQo+IG1pbm9yIG5pdHM6DQo+IHMv d2hlbiBrZXkgaXMgc21hbGxlciBvciBlcXVhbCB0byAxMjggYml0cy93aGVuIHRoZSBrZXkgaXMg c21hbGxlciBvcg0KPiBlcXVhbCB0byAxMjggYml0cy8NCj4gSW4gU2VjdGlvbiA0LjEuMSBISVAg UHV6emxlIE1lY2hhbmlzbSwgdGhlIGxpbmtzIChIVE1MIHZlcnNpb24pIHRvDQo+IFJGQyA3NDAx IHNlY3Rpb25zIDQuMS4xIGFuZCA0LjEuMiBkbyBub3QgbGluayB0byBSRkMgNzQwMSBidXQgdG8g dGhlDQo+IGRleCBkcmFmdC4NCg0KYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0aGlzIGhhcyB0byBiZSBmaXhlZCBtYW51 YWxseSBpbiBjb2xsYWJvcmF0aW9uIHdpdGggdGhlIFJGQw0KZWRpdG9yLg0K From nobody Fri Feb 14 07:07:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42BF1200B4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:07:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQK_-e9L55dv for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00802120041 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E7262134 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:07:31 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id L2yPyICkQFy4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 702396214B for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:07:10 -0500 (EST) To: hipsec@ietf.org References: <158169080958.16293.4473868281358122424@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:07:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <158169080958.16293.4473868281358122424@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] Please review - Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-dex-13.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:07:36 -0000 Miika and I believe we have answered all IESG comments. Please go through this so we can finalize it before IETF107. On 2/14/20 9:33 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF. > > Title : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX) > Authors : Robert Moskowitz > Rene Hummen > Miika Komu > Filename : draft-ietf-hip-dex-13.txt > Pages : 58 > Date : 2020-02-14 > > Abstract: > This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP > DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2). The > HIP DEX protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed > cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and hash > functions. > > The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory- > constrained sensor/actuator devices. Like HIPv2, it is expected to > be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the > Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer > protocol data. Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Perfect > Forward Secrecy (PFS), and MUST only be used on devices where PFS is > prohibitively expensive. In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a > keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for > IEEE 802.15.4 networks. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-13 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-dex-13 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-13 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Hipsec mailing list > Hipsec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec From nobody Tue Feb 18 09:23:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA559120823; 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b=l4tCfwz+FEVVonGPRuC2gFA+4BNzmvgxn5FLPt6xgji6Bj5qbEIpye4+Em4in2Yl0bXhwD6jhXwGtkDGo8TbqUpLhw6oEVHYD/iLg3vrsjelOCe3+cHRugwo3FF4bF5ZtyFn72lzQ80qnRD66Kzc6vXKcyhtETYNkUTqDccS5ho= Received: from AM0PR07MB3876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (52.134.81.144) by AM0PR07MB4610.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (52.135.146.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2750.8; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:00:00 +0000 Received: from AM0PR07MB3876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::790c:4b51:77d2:7767]) by AM0PR07MB3876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::790c:4b51:77d2:7767%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.016; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:00:00 +0000 From: Miika Komu To: "iesg@ietf.org" , "alissa@cooperw.in" CC: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHT56vrUK+Q+hsEyUGGmRJi8BluPaglOxwA Date: 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDC2120900; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:13:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hipsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hipsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <158214682738.17710.11035888221163939022@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:13:47 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-29.txt X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 21:13:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF. Title : Native NAT Traversal Mode for the Host Identity Protocol Authors : Ari Keranen Jan Melén Miika Komu Filename : draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-29.txt Pages : 63 Date : 2020-02-19 Abstract: This document specifies a new Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal mode for the Host Identity Protocol (HIP). The new mode is based on the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) methodology and UDP encapsulation of data and signaling traffic. The main difference from the previously specified modes is the use of HIP messages instead of ICE for all NAT traversal procedures due to its kernel-space dependencies. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-29 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-29 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-29 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Feb 19 13:21:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54691120837 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:21:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGK3_FeDZBV9 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82F4E120128 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id q8so1894039ljj.11 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KuX16sd1sDFbzoO9RPuHMoVmwHtTObjnOBH0f48sRFA=; b=SkpQYUa9105y46KFb8M25vjctffApefwmmvVNWUV5YIHiJfixM70cG51vMagOkqcQc 09fKQp1l6xCtYQNZyANa6/GQp96WgKPr4bEbFcYas1eRqpuzknnMzUBAF0s9WfmOsf37 ht8nlHj+vT/uOb2LE04CMo7NanMJjUM4PJe9u0n3eYJIhx0HBo6yl8/NLF/CayPkOuwq Xa5x0og3fA4p4NNF+0J5cqXv4CdngS5KO0Z7BwCu8i9pCxFwYsaK5Y/VznaYMBVf+q9u XHZauHDDziDxl+xC6khZfU7k1eh2VevHdklkgrn6bbcituMQZX1L1l9cQ+hSVSLWmJJu swKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KuX16sd1sDFbzoO9RPuHMoVmwHtTObjnOBH0f48sRFA=; b=G8Ug8myndMN+whS6qjtNONP85hBJUAttMLUSW7Pps9w9XxklDjwTch3Yn3Vfx8KXgu Eq+bSk1M6w2S5yqZC4qyZxfwGgF2UZ/zRlCyLBgP/EGzTX+ShLrPVHPWqjFPoIowRy9q gcvm3FROSE10OWy6neM53By9zcE6ooGWhgV/v1C0wklikpdZ5TR8KWIAGeEFvfXH1tOW wRbcVMmaNj/1vCc6rQyTfqrGoG9xlFjMtCpyREJNrjd4J9ZvmjqdcEfTMsLp/4gouVrF ZPWsPHrLmfk9CA4mqZb6IEcyvQEJkSNdO8MuG+5JfgvWYW4CCrdB3O4oRRK/j5C6JN5Y Hirg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU2+9Eknl8mgNYXDdVpXu/sEVt01xR0YsdI8+N0P2qLiHSaZ9OS Zc5agwuR16mdWImnKLHMgBHbqLZLhh0hi+8rM0eDZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxfjOf/i5GKTpKuT/NSLs4zkacY2Z22giy3a2GevxDicCR6hfpjjzniN8qUF5ZUBAAfvLBQULo0WYvTWoyFl04= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9b12:: with SMTP id u18mr17058201lji.274.1582147296668; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:21:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:20:59 -0800 Message-ID: To: Miika Komu Cc: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099ce82059ef45fdd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 21:21:43 -0000 --00000000000099ce82059ef45fdd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am no longer an area director, so generally I suggest you take up these comments with the current ADs. On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:08 PM Miika Komu wrote: > Hi Eric, > > thanks for your comments, my response below. > > ke, 2018-12-26 kello 17:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 1:37 PM Miika Komu > > wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > apologies for the belated response, I am not working on HIP > > > anymore, so > > > it has been rather difficult to find time for this. > > > > > > On 5/4/18 22:34, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for > > > > draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: Discuss > > > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > > all > > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to > > > cut this > > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found > > > here: > > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------- > > > > DISCUSS: > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------- > > > > > > > > Rich version of this review at: > > > > https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.net/D3099 > > > > > > > > > > > > I am very familiar with ICE and yet I found this document > > > extremely > > > > hard to follow. The problem is that it cherry-picks pieces of ICE > > > and > > > > I'm just not sure that it's a complete specification when put all > > > > together. I have noted a number of places where I actually am not > > > sure > > > > how to implement something, and fixing those will resolve this > > > > DISCUSS, but IMO you really should totally rewrite this document > > > > either (a) as a variant of ICE or (b) as an entirely new document > > > not > > > > with a pile of new text and then references out to ICE sections. > > > > > > the expected receivers of the work are the implementers of RFC5770, > > > so > > > the draft follows the sectioning of the RFC5770 (which has two > > > interoperable implementations). > > > > > > If I understood your comment right, the variant of ICE (a) would > > > follow > > > the ICE document structure but then the document would not serve > > > anymore > > > HIP implementers so well. What comes to option (b), I think it > > > would > > > make the the document quite long if we replicated everything in the > > > ICE > > > specification (and possibly from the HIP specifications) in the > > > draft. > > > > Yes, it would be long, because ICE is complicated. It would also be > > complete. > > As I said in my initial ballot, if you resolve the ambiguities I > > noted I will > > clear my DISCUSS, but I think that this document should really be > > rewritten > > and i would urge the AD to require it. > > > > > > > > > > S 4.6.2. > > > >> > > > >> A host may receive a connectivity check before it has > > > received the > > > >> candidates from its peer. In such a case, the host MUST > > > immediately > > > >> generate a response, and then continue waiting for the > > > candidates. A > > > >> host MUST NOT select a candidate pair until it has > > > verified the pair > > > >> using a connectivity check as defined in Section 4.6.1. > > > > > > > > Are you supposed to put this on a TODO check list as with ICE? > > > > > > I believe you refer to the triggered-check queue: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445#section-6.1.4.1 > > > > > > I changed the text as follows: > > > > > > A host may receive a connectivity check before it has > > > > > > received the candidates from its peer. In such a case, the > > > > > > host MUST immediately generate a response by placing it in the > > > triggered-check queue, and then continue > > > waiting for the candidates. > > > > Well, this isn't generating a response, it's queueing a response. > > reworded as follows: > > In such a case, the host MUST immediately queue a response by placing > it in the triggered-check queue, and then continue waiting for the > candidates. > > > > > S 5.8. > > > >> > > > >> 5.8. RELAY_HMAC Parameter > > > >> > > > >> As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the RELAY_HMAC > > > parameter > > > >> value has the TLV type 65520. It has the same semantics > > > as RVS_HMAC > > > >> [RFC8004]. > > > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC? > > > > > > clarified this as follows: > > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as specified in section > > > 4.2.1 > > > in [RFC8004]. Similarly as with RVS_HMAC, also RELAY_HMAC is is > > > keyed > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as specified in > > > section 6.5 > > > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay registration procedure > > > as > > > described in Section 4.1. > > > > This seems like it might have potential for cross-protocol attacks on > > the key. Why > > is this OK> > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The keying procedure is > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some attack > scenario, please describe it in detail? > > Or is there some editorial issue here? > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say that you should be using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that correct? -Ekr > > > S 4.2. > > > >> deployments in order to enable it by software > > > configuration update if > > > >> needed at some point. A host SHOULD employ only a single > > > server for > > > >> gathering the candidates for a single HIP association; > > > either one > > > >> server providing both Control and Data Relay Server > > > functionality, or > > > >> one Control Relay Server and also Data Relay Server if the > > > >> functionality is offered by another server. When the > > > relay service > > > > > > > > How does this interact with mult-layered NAT?> > > > > > > No different from ICE with separated STUN and TURN servers multi- > > > layer > > > NAT scenarios. Should we mention something about the issues related > > > to > > > some specific scenario? > > > > Well, with multi-layered NAT, you actually want a STUN server at each > > level > > so that you minimize hairpinning. But you recommend against that > > here. > > good point. This unnecessary constraint has been removed as it was also > requested by Benjamin Kaduk. > > > > > S 5.7. > > > >> | Reserved | 0 | Reserved for future extensions > > > | > > > >> | Preferred | 0 or 1 | Set to 1 for a Locator in R1 if > > > the | > > > >> | (P) bit | | Responder can use it for the rest > > > of the | > > > >> | | | base exchange, otherwise set to > > > zero | > > > >> | Locator | Variable | Locator lifetime in seconds > > > | > > > >> | Lifetime | | > > > | > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of this? It's not an ICE parameter. > > > > > > In HIP, locators have a maximum lifetime after which they become > > > deprecated (RFC8046). Should add something here? > > Yes > > Added a reference: > > "Locator lifetime in seconds, see Section 4 in [RFC8046]" > > > > --00000000000099ce82059ef45fdd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am no longer an area director, so gener= ally I=C2=A0 suggest you take up these comments with the current ADs.

On= Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:08 PM Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi Eric,

thanks for your comments, my response below.

ke, 2018-12-26 kello 17:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 1:37 PM Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > apologies for the belated response, I am not working on HIP
> > anymore, so
> > it has been rather difficult to find time for this.
> >
> > On 5/4/18 22:34, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for<= br> > > > draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: Discuss
> > >
> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and rep= ly to
> > all
> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to
> > cut this
> > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Please refer to
> > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stateme= nt/discuss-criteria.html
> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT position= s.
> > >
> > >
> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be foun= d
> > here:
> > >
> > https://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------= ---
> > -------
> > > DISCUSS:
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------= ---
> > -------
> > >
> > > Rich version of this review at:
> > > https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.= net/D3099
> > >
> > >
> > > I am very familiar with ICE and yet I found this document > > extremely
> > > hard to follow. The problem is that it cherry-picks pieces o= f ICE
> > and
> > > I'm just not sure that it's a complete specification= when put all
> > > together. I have noted a number of places where I actually a= m not
> > sure
> > > how to implement something, and fixing those will resolve th= is
> > > DISCUSS, but IMO you really should totally rewrite this docu= ment
> > > either (a) as a variant of ICE or (b) as an entirely new doc= ument
> > not
> > > with a pile of new text and then references out to ICE secti= ons.
> >
> > the expected receivers of the work are the implementers of RFC577= 0,
> > so
> > the draft follows the sectioning of the RFC5770 (which has two > > interoperable implementations).
> >
> > If I understood your comment right, the variant of ICE (a) would<= br> > > follow
> > the ICE document structure but then the document would not serve<= br> > > anymore
> > HIP implementers so well. What comes to option (b), I think it > > would
> > make the the document quite long if we replicated everything in t= he
> > ICE
> > specification (and possibly from the HIP specifications) in the > > draft.
>
> Yes, it would be long, because ICE is complicated. It would also be > complete.
> As I said in my initial ballot, if you resolve the ambiguities I
> noted I will
> clear my DISCUSS, but I think that this document should really be
> rewritten
> and i would urge the AD to require it.
>
>
>=C2=A0
> > > S 4.6.2.
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A host may receive a connectiv= ity check before it has
> > received the
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0candidates from its peer.=C2= =A0 In such a case, the host MUST
> > immediately
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generate a response, and then = continue waiting for the
> > candidates.=C2=A0 A
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0host MUST NOT select a candida= te pair until it has
> > verified the pair
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0using a connectivity check as = defined in Section 4.6.1.
> > >
> > > Are you supposed to put this on a TODO check list as with IC= E?
> >
> > I believe you refer to the triggered-check queue:
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445#sec= tion-6.1.4.1
> >
> > I changed the text as follows:
> >
> > A host may receive a connectivity check before it has
> >
> > received the candidates from its peer. In such a case, the
> >
> > host MUST immediately generate a response by placing it in the > > triggered-check queue, and then continue
> > waiting for the candidates.
>
> Well, this isn't generating a response, it's queueing a respon= se.

reworded as follows:

In such a case, the host MUST immediately queue a response by placing
it in the triggered-check queue, and=C2=A0 then continue waiting for the candidates.

> > > S 5.8.
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5.8.=C2=A0 RELAY_HMAC Parameter
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP= [RFC5770], the RELAY_HMAC
> > parameter
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value has the TLV type 65520.= =C2=A0 It has the same semantics
> > as RVS_HMAC
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8004].
> > >
> > > What key is used for the HMAC?
> >
> > clarified this as follows:
> >
> > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as specified in sectio= n
> > 4.2.1
> > in [RFC8004].=C2=A0 Similarly as with RVS_HMAC, also RELAY_HMAC i= s is
> > keyed
> > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as specified in
> > section 6.5
> > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay registration procedur= e
> > as
> > described in Section 4.1.
>
> This seems like it might have potential for cross-protocol attacks on<= br> > the key. Why
> is this OK>

this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The keying procedure is
the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some attack
scenario, please describe it in detail?

Or is there some editorial issue here?

= I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say that you should b= e using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that correct?
=
-Ekr

> > > S 4.2.
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployments in order to enable= it by software
> > configuration update if
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0needed at some point.=C2=A0 A = host SHOULD employ only a single
> > server for
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gathering the candidates for a= single HIP association;
> > either one
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server providing both Control = and Data Relay Server
> > functionality, or
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one Control Relay Server and a= lso Data Relay Server if the
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0functionality is offered by an= other server.=C2=A0 When the
> > relay service
> > >
> > > How does this interact with mult-layered NAT?>
> >
> > No different from ICE with separated STUN and TURN servers multi-=
> > layer
> > NAT scenarios. Should we mention something about the issues relat= ed
> > to
> > some specific scenario?
>
> Well, with multi-layered NAT, you actually want a STUN server at each<= br> > level
> so that you minimize hairpinning. But you recommend against that
> here.

good point. This unnecessary constraint has been removed as it was also
requested by Benjamin Kaduk.

> > > S 5.7.
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Reserved=C2=A0 | 0=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Reserved for future extensions=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Preferred | 0 or 1=C2=A0 =C2= =A0| Set to 1 for a Locator in R1 if
> > the=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| (P) bit=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Responder can use it for the rest
> > of the=C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | base exchange, otherwise= set to
> > zero=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Locator=C2=A0 =C2=A0| Variab= le | Locator lifetime in seconds=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Lifetime=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> > >
> > > What is the purpose of this? It's not an ICE parameter.<= br> > >
> > In HIP, locators have a maximum lifetime after which they become =
> > deprecated (RFC8046). Should add something here?
> Yes

Added a reference:

"Locator lifetime in seconds, see Section 4 in [RFC8046]"

>
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Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:44:55 +0000 From: Gonzalo Camarillo To: Eric Rescorla , "evyncke@cisco.com" CC: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "hipsec@ietf.org" , Miika Komu Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHT497tUmBXmn8MOU+Q++wdbIVom6VF/FUAgE08J4CCk9E3AIAAA4SAgAEBhIA= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:44:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [37.33.8.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b33accd2-0c73-4af5-ac73-08d7b602b021 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM4PR07MB3489:|AM4PR07MB3489: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BdG7IINohHbt for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9355120830 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id l16so3200836lfg.2 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:05:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xSCvtUpMWz2sMXgCjwIIBR1NfZiX3tuuLGBpzS6lUxU=; b=qZqIpmZDUVs1D2iwnNcbGOweh6XOqEvQmfew5z9n31bakDCSHrgSncyXj1lZv2cx3T 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxcmLVJlHuW34Gd0KF98JD4K+5qQA2PZjPe7KAUumfT4bXnuHjYNmX4N34MipzDF9CBumMbMH/UqpBeBwnHrxM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1086:: with SMTP id j6mr2769079lfg.14.1582207525960; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:05:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> <20b7460348acc2f3d958ab8ed66a70b49448289a.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <20b7460348acc2f3d958ab8ed66a70b49448289a.camel@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:04:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: Miika Komu Cc: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008bd530059f0265f3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:05:31 -0000 --0000000000008bd530059f0265f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu wrote: > Hi Eric, > > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > S 5.8. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> 5.8. RELAY_HMAC Parameter > > > > > >> > > > > > >> As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the > > > RELAY_HMAC > > > > > parameter > > > > > >> value has the TLV type 65520. It has the same > > > semantics > > > > > as RVS_HMAC > > > > > >> [RFC8004]. > > > > > > > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC? > > > > > > > > > > clarified this as follows: > > > > > > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as specified in > > > section > > > > > 4.2.1 > > > > > in [RFC8004]. Similarly as with RVS_HMAC, also RELAY_HMAC is > > > is > > > > > keyed > > > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as specified in > > > > > section 6.5 > > > > > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay registration > > > procedure > > > > > as > > > > > described in Section 4.1. > > > > > > > > This seems like it might have potential for cross-protocol > > > attacks on > > > > the key. Why > > > > is this OK> > > > > > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The keying procedure > > > is > > > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some attack > > > scenario, please describe it in detail? > > > Or is there some editorial issue here? > > > > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say that you should > > be using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that correct? > > the key is always specific to a Host Association, i.e., unique between > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if there is a Rendezvous server > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a different host and different Host > Association. If the same host provides both rendezvous and relay > service, it should be fine to reuse the same key. > Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. Do you have a proof that it is not possible to have one message mistaken for another? -Ekr --0000000000008bd530059f0265f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miik= a Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.c= om> wrote:
CC: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHT497tUmBXmn8MOU+Q++wdbIVom6VF/FUAgE08J4CCk9E3AIAAA4SAgACfMACAAHlIgIAAGiSA Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:38:24 +0000 Message-ID: <82ded3745fe403d24c3866845f5f202f182f9d1e.camel@ericsson.com> References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> <20b7460348acc2f3d958ab8ed66a70b49448289a.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fi-FI, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Evolution 3.28.5-0ubuntu0.18.04.1 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=miika.komu@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [89.166.49.243] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3bc59f88-ddbd-46b8-5d33-08d7b61aec05 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR07MB4499: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 031996B7EF x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(376002)(39860400002)(396003)(136003)(366004)(346002)(189003)(199004)(81166006)(316002)(4326008)(8676002)(5660300002)(8936002)(6486002)(66446008)(71200400001)(76116006)(54906003)(81156014)(2906002)(66946007)(44832011)(66476007)(64756008)(2616005)(66556008)(86362001)(186003)(36756003)(53546011)(6506007)(6512007)(478600001)(6916009)(26005)(99106002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM0PR07MB4499; H:AM0PR07MB3876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 7RjjBNy8YqqNAXEWPmN1XIKkqVfqTs01yJ4LlM4XfZSXsKW3Yvk8Tj46ErOrtrjO6zbVrMldCrOtawbfPBHbq8nRP7fBp60FjA9WYDdvOE2UwSshLVNNSFZ8Ne0N8wwwM5onl+DEfqoVqJyMn8YfFhAVOh3TAD1UaF8mc78HxkpFo/uoDUIchurnr3Fuv1yayO0puGixF2NR6LUqFy2dNyMGNKH1/dtwYEr8c87UIR5dbQ/MKIsRctoRlX6BMZZj9AFNBH0ijawPTEcG+PH4Ed3e46RlTeTbR7rCxj+XjXelw/SHhWjWCbRwVZApKgqjpTgpGJdJxgV6lW52Wbkdn7fwxXRYek4AdzI5Fmuxuf4hUptJA1Q0VpvllThxE4aILD3gLoNQnQY1cssbyLyybS24GquwvfJTmCHfAS/0g9M1nd776oOHubCRqrk4P9zL2YW23A6YcGChluLUzKQOZMMISbCGyME9ag2wLZ3XSczjGJpkUpT80xTC7C8wh8O2 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: QpShG/SNbMsuMmyPiEyUWaXKMuuBQlkN4j2VDQZAIuyhZ6PQ0RHjATuTYyVaXyfBsEv+oBiQNlel7nzPe9xjvb3BKnoEuZgx/6KvIbSTrY6vi+qVq7K+Q9zLYE2xBSRM9WznxsMLgJduKdcOsMUhrQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3bc59f88-ddbd-46b8-5d33-08d7b61aec05 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Feb 2020 15:38:24.0794 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: kHvAmhjRvE2D50eKLAhN2pdKsySS0s4Cs5tpY6MkrUA+ZdS1+gdv0G/Mh33DhS+JuBF3wcoEjamVjBpT93jMnw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB4499 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." 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Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:58:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> <20b7460348acc2f3d958ab8ed66a70b49448289a.camel@ericsson.com> <82ded3745fe403d24c3866845f5f202f182f9d1e.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <82ded3745fe403d24c3866845f5f202f182f9d1e.camel@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:58:22 -0800 Message-ID: To: Miika Komu Cc: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004203dd059f04d241" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:59:10 -0000 --0000000000004203dd059f04d241 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:38 AM Miika Komu wrote: > Hi Eric, > > to, 2020-02-20 kello 06:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu > > wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > > > S 5.8. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> 5.8. RELAY_HMAC Parameter > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the > > > > > RELAY_HMAC > > > > > > > parameter > > > > > > > >> value has the TLV type 65520. It has the same > > > > > semantics > > > > > > > as RVS_HMAC > > > > > > > >> [RFC8004]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clarified this as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as specified in > > > > > section > > > > > > > 4.2.1 > > > > > > > in [RFC8004]. Similarly as with RVS_HMAC, also RELAY_HMAC > > > is > > > > > is > > > > > > > keyed > > > > > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as specified > > > in > > > > > > > section 6.5 > > > > > > > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay registration > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > described in Section 4.1. > > > > > > > > > > > > This seems like it might have potential for cross-protocol > > > > > attacks on > > > > > > the key. Why > > > > > > is this OK> > > > > > > > > > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The keying > > > procedure > > > > > is > > > > > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some attack > > > > > scenario, please describe it in detail? > > > > > Or is there some editorial issue here? > > > > > > > > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say that you > > > should > > > > be using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that correct? > > > > > > the key is always specific to a Host Association, i.e., unique > > > between > > > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if there is a Rendezvous > > > server > > > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a different host and different > > > Host > > > Association. If the same host provides both rendezvous and relay > > > service, it should be fine to reuse the same key. > > > > Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. Do you have a proof > > that it is not possible to have one message mistaken for another? > > so I assume we are talking about the (artificial) case where a single > host provides both Relay and Rendezvous service, and is communicating > with a single registered Client? It's the same control channel, so I > don't see any need to have different HMAC keys for different messages > since it's still the same two hosts. Or maybe I misunderstood your > scenario, so please elaborate? > The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attack. Is there any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message types that are protected with the same key? -Ekr --0000000000004203dd059f04d241 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:38 AM Miika= Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.co= m> wrote:
Hi Eric,

to, 2020-02-20 kello 06:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
> > > > > > > S 5.8.
> > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5.8.=C2=A0 RELAY_HMAC P= arameter
> > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As specifi= ed in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the
> > > > RELAY_HMAC
> > > > > > parameter
> > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value has = the TLV type 65520.=C2=A0 It has the same
> > > > semantics
> > > > > > as RVS_HMAC
> > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8004].=
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > clarified this as follows:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as= specified in
> > > > section
> > > > > > 4.2.1
> > > > > > in [RFC8004].=C2=A0 Similarly as with RVS_HMA= C, also RELAY_HMAC
> > is
> > > > is
> > > > > > keyed
> > > > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl = as specified
> > in
> > > > > > section 6.5
> > > > > > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay r= egistration
> > > > procedure
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > described in Section 4.1.
> > > > >
> > > > > This seems like it might have potential for cross-= protocol
> > > > attacks on
> > > > > the key. Why
> > > > > is this OK>
> > > >
> > > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The keyin= g
> > procedure
> > > > is
> > > > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some= attack
> > > > scenario, please describe it in detail?
> > > > Or is there some editorial issue here?
> > >
> > > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say th= at you
> > should
> > > be using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that cor= rect?
> >
> > the key is always specific to a Host Association, i.e., unique > > between
> > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if there is a Rendezvous > > server
> > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a different host and differen= t
> > Host
> > Association. If the same host provides both rendezvous and relay<= br> > > service, it should be fine to reuse the same key.
>
> Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. Do you have a proof > that it is not possible to have one message mistaken for another?

so I assume we are talking about the (artificial) case where a single
host provides both Relay and Rendezvous service, and is communicating
with a single registered Client? It's the same control channel, so I don't see any need to have different HMAC keys for different messages since it's still the same two hosts. Or maybe I misunderstood your
scenario, so please elaborate?

The conc= ern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attack. Is there an= y situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message types that = are protected with the same key?

-Ekr

--0000000000004203dd059f04d241-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 15:19:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EE21200FF; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.163 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.163 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, MAY_BE_FORGED=1.116, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obq6lbh65oOI; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 949C9120273; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01KNJ4Yq021176 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:19:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1582240747; bh=4rFleGdA9tc9N7yI3DDyQMa5Ox6fcWp3Cw7tiSIw2z8=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=ku8Q8N8UhI9P/RPl2oYsor3s5Gmpw7JXIjhT6d/gAZPtfV/Il46uoASnnvJyF6TKe nvwlWVv/keIvn3BHF8mpH2VoRxxWE7OJ0Ty+BTr6DcVD+OMM+NMcXuXuSUQ0y/UZTk Ni8YIv2QrLzs74Ka29taCQjLL9ONcPBpyo7FF5tM= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <68B28C7A-8CD9-44AC-8AC7-3B29C948D7B3@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C39E3FAF-2212-40BD-9DD5-3FBAEEBBCD62"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:18:58 -0600 In-Reply-To: <3ac040a545036ed86f5db5bcfd9e50a7de41ac61.camel@ericsson.com> Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" To: Miika Komu References: <152591791834.10400.6957331555512925079.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ac040a545036ed86f5db5bcfd9e50a7de41ac61.camel@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Ben Campbell's Abstain on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 23:19:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C39E3FAF-2212-40BD-9DD5-3FBAEEBBCD62 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02E1A54D-EAFA-43DE-A4DD-87C48F241893" --Apple-Mail=_02E1A54D-EAFA-43DE-A4DD-87C48F241893 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I am no longer an area director. I leave it to the current area = directors to decide how to proceed with the updated version. Thanks, Ben. > On Feb 19, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Miika Komu = wrote: >=20 > Hi Ben, >=20 > thanks for your comments! My response below. >=20 > ke, 2018-05-09 kello 19:05 -0700, Ben Campbell kirjoitti: >> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: Abstain >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut >> this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> COMMENT: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>=20 >> I support all points of Ekr's discuss and comment points. I think >> this either >> needs to use ICE mostly as is (maybe with some minor profiling) or it >> needs to >> be self-contained here. I understand the material in appendix B, but >> the >> current mix seems untenable for implementors. Therefore I am >> balloting >> "abstain". I will reconsider that position if there is a substantial >> reorganization. >=20 > the current document has been organized for implementors of RFC5770 in > mind. >=20 >> Substantive Comments: >>=20 >> I share Alissa's question about why this is standard track when the >> previous >> work has been experimental. >=20 > HIP WG decided to move all of its experimental work to standards = track. >=20 >> =C2=A71, second paragraph: The citation for the version of ICE used = by >> "legacy >> ICE-HIP" should be RFC5245, not the bis version. >=20 > thanks, corrected. >=20 >> =C2=A72: There are a number of lower-case keywords. Please use the = RFC >> 8174 >> boilerplate. >=20 > boilerplate added. Please comment some specific lower-case keyword is > incorrect in your opinion. >=20 >> =C2=A74.2: >> - paragraph 5: Is everything in this paragraph from the ICE >> specification? I >> suspect not, but it's hard to tease out what is from ICE and what is >> new >> specification. It would be helpful to reference the ICE bits by >> section number. >=20 > it is either adapted from ICE (by e.g. changing "agent" to "host" or > referencing the ICE spec (by sections). Based on the earlier reviews, > the text has evolved now into the following: >=20 > The rules in section 5.1.1 in [RFC8445] for candidate gathering > are followed here. A number of host candidates (loopback, anycast > and others) should be excluded as described in section 5.1.1.1 of = the > ICE specification [RFC8445]. Relayed candidates SHOULD be gathered > in order to guarantee successful NAT traversal, and > implementations SHOULD support this functionality even if it will = not > be used in deployments in order to enable it by software > configuration update if needed at some point. Similarly as = explained > in section 5.1.1.2 of the ICE specification [RFC8445], if an IPv6- > only host is in a network that utilizes NAT64 [RFC6146] and DNS64 > [RFC6147] technologies, it may also gather IPv4 server- reflexive > and/or relayed candidates from IPv4-only Control or Data Relay > Servers. IPv6-only hosts SHOULD also utilize IPv6 prefix discovery > [RFC7050] to discover the IPv6 prefix used by NAT64 (if any) and > generate server-reflexive candidates for each IPv6-only interface, > accordingly. The NAT64 server-reflexive candidates are prioritized > like IPv4 server-reflexive candidates. >=20 >> - paragraph 6: I'm confused in that I thought the previous text said >> that >> native ICE-HIP does not use STUN. >=20 > you mean paragraph 7? >=20 > Gathering of candidates MAY also be performed by other means than > described in this section. For example, the candidates could be > gathered as specified in Section 4.2 of [RFC5770] if STUN servers > are available, or if the host has just a single interface and no > STUN or Data Relay Server are available. >=20 > Nothing prevents an implementation from gathering candidates via STUN > but the recommended way is HIP control Relay as the "MAY" indicates > here. >=20 >> =C2=A76: I am skeptical of the assertion that the security = considerations >> for Native >> ICE-HIP are no different than those for Legacy ICE-HIP. >=20 > I have changed this now to a more precise statement: >=20 > Since the control plane protocol and Control Relay Server are > essentially the same (with some minor differences) in this document > as in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the same security considerations (in > Section 6.1, Section 6.2, Section 6.3 and Section 6.4,) are still > valid, but are repeated here for the sake of completeness. New > security considerations related to the new Data Relay Server are > discussed in Section 6.5, and considerations related to the new > connectivity check protocol are discussed in Section 6.6 and > Section 6.7 . >=20 >> Editorial Comments: >>=20 >> =C2=A71, 2nd paragraph: >> - "responsible of NAT traversal": s/of/to >> - "responsible of end-host": s/of/to >=20 > I changed to "for", I assume that would do the trick as well >=20 >> =C2=A74.3: "This section describes the usage of a new non-critical >> parameter type. >> ": Which is? >=20 > It says now: >=20 > This section describes the usage of a non-critical parameter type > called NAT_TRAVERSAL_MODE with a new mode called ICE-HIP-UDP. >=20 >> =C2=A74.6, first paragraph: 2nd sentence is hard to parse. >=20 > I reworded this as follows: >=20 > The address of the Control Relay Server MUST NOT be used as a > destination for data plane traffic unless the server supports also = Data > Relay Server functionality, and the Client has successfully registered > to use it. --Apple-Mail=_02E1A54D-EAFA-43DE-A4DD-87C48F241893 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

I am = no longer an area director. I leave it to the current area directors to = decide how to proceed with the updated version.

Thanks,

Ben.

On Feb = 19, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Ben,

thanks for your comments! My = response below.

ke, 2018-05-09 kello 19:05 -0700, Ben Campbell = kirjoitti:
Ben = Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line = intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To = and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htmlfor more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.


The document, = along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav= ersal/



---------------------------------------------------------------= ----
---
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------= ----
---

I support all points = of Ekr's discuss and comment points. I think
this = either
needs to use ICE mostly as is (maybe with some = minor profiling) or it
needs to
be = self-contained here. I understand the material in appendix B, but
the
current mix seems untenable for = implementors. Therefore I am
balloting
"abstain".  I will reconsider that position if there is = a substantial
reorganization.
the current document has been = organized for implementors of RFC5770 in
mind.

Substantive Comments:
I share Alissa's question about why this is standard track = when the
previous
work has been = experimental.

HIP WG decided to move all of its experimental work to = standards track.

=C2=A71, second paragraph: The = citation for the version of ICE used by
"legacy
ICE-HIP" should be RFC5245, not the bis version.

thanks, corrected.

=C2=A72: There are a number of = lower-case keywords. Please use the RFC
8174
boilerplate.

boilerplate added. Please = comment some specific lower-case keyword is
incorrect in your = opinion.

=C2=A74.2:
- paragraph 5: Is everything in this = paragraph from the ICE
specification? I
suspect not, but it's hard to tease out what is from ICE and = what is
new
specification. It would be = helpful to reference the ICE bits by
section number.

it is either adapted from ICE (by e.g. changing "agent" to = "host" or
referencing = the ICE spec (by sections). Based on the earlier reviews,
the text has evolved now into = the following:

 The rules in section 5.1.1 in [RFC8445] for candidate = gathering
are =   followed here.  A number of host candidates (loopback, = anycast
and =   others) should be excluded as described in section 5.1.1.1 = of the
ICE =   specification [RFC8445].  Relayed candidates SHOULD be = gathered
in =   order to guarantee successful NAT traversal, and
implementations =   SHOULD support this functionality even if it will = not
be used in =   deployments in order to enable it by software
configuration update if =   needed at some point.  Similarly as explained
in section 5.1.1.2 of =   the ICE specification [RFC8445], if an IPv6-
only host is in a network =   that utilizes NAT64 [RFC6146] and DNS64
[RFC6147] technologies, it =   may also gather IPv4 server- reflexive
and/or relayed candidates from =   IPv4-only Control or Data Relay
Servers.  IPv6-only hosts = SHOULD also   utilize IPv6 prefix discovery
[RFC7050] to discover the IPv6 = prefix   used by NAT64 (if any) and
generate server-reflexive = candidates for   each IPv6-only interface,
accordingly.  The NAT64 = server-reflexive   candidates are prioritized
like IPv4 server-reflexive = candidates.

- = paragraph 6: I'm confused in that I thought the previous text said
that
native ICE-HIP does not use STUN.

you mean paragraph 7?

  Gathering of candidates MAY also be performed by = other means than
  described in this section.  For example, the = candidates could be
  gathered as specified in Section 4.2 of [RFC5770] = if STUN servers 
  are available, or if = the host has just a single interface and no
  STUN or Data Relay = Server are available.

Nothing prevents an implementation from gathering candidates = via STUN
but the = recommended way is HIP control Relay as the "MAY" indicates
here.

=C2=A76= : I am skeptical of the assertion that the security considerations
for Native
ICE-HIP are no different than those = for Legacy ICE-HIP.

I have changed this now to a more precise = statement:

  Since the control plane protocol and Control = Relay Server are
  essentially the same (with some minor = differences) in this document
  as in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the same security = considerations (in
  Section 6.1, Section 6.2, Section 6.3 and Section = 6.4,) are still
  valid, but are repeated here for the sake of = completeness.  New
  security considerations related to the new Data = Relay Server are
  discussed in Section 6.5, and considerations = related to the new
  connectivity check protocol are discussed in = Section 6.6 and
  Section 6.7 .

Editorial Comments:

=C2=A71, 2nd paragraph:
- "responsible of NAT = traversal": s/of/to
- "responsible of end-host": = s/of/to

I changed to "for", I assume that would do the trick as = well

=C2=A74= .3: "This section describes the usage of a new non-critical
parameter type.
": Which is?

It says now:

 This section describes the usage of a non-critical = parameter type
  called NAT_TRAVERSAL_MODE with a new mode called = ICE-HIP-UDP. 

=C2=A74= .6, first paragraph: 2nd sentence is hard to parse.

I reworded this as follows:

The address of the Control Relay Server MUST NOT be used as = a
destination = for data plane traffic unless the server supports also Data
Relay Server functionality, and = the Client has successfully registered
to use it.

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Fri, 21 Feb 2020 09:35:59 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Ben Campbell , Miika Komu CC: "hipsec@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Ben Campbell's Abstain on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHT6ANZz4Lx+ERWNkqYmGlFCSDyRqgm+nEAgAG9yQCAAL0mgA== Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 09:35:58 +0000 Message-ID: <56958922-3C5C-44F3-A3F8-287CE05BB4B9@cisco.com> References: <152591791834.10400.6957331555512925079.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ac040a545036ed86f5db5bcfd9e50a7de41ac61.camel@ericsson.com> <68B28C7A-8CD9-44AC-8AC7-3B29C948D7B3@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <68B28C7A-8CD9-44AC-8AC7-3B29C948D7B3@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evyncke@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c1:36:40ba:933b:a7c0:5ae] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5b2c35cc-09c3-426b-cf14-08d7b6b17562 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1738: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 12:23:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF. Title : Native NAT Traversal Mode for the Host Identity Protocol Authors : Ari Keranen Jan Melén Miika Komu Filename : draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30.txt Pages : 63 Date : 2020-02-21 Abstract: This document specifies a new Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal mode for the Host Identity Protocol (HIP). The new mode is based on the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) methodology and UDP encapsulation of data and signaling traffic. The main difference from the previously specified modes is the use of HIP messages instead of ICE for all NAT traversal procedures due to its kernel-space dependencies. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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--_000_884374EF74884C00BDB7CE203414197Eciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Feb 21 04:39:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68DE120033; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 04:39:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org, Gonzalo Camarillo , hip-chairs@ietf.org, gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com, hipsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <158228875476.29037.10673115514898165188.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 04:39:14 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Yes_on_draft-ietf-hip-na?= =?utf-8?q?tive-nat-traversal-30=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 12:39:15 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The -30 version addresses all DISCUSSs and COMMENTs raised during the May 2018 first ballot on version -28. From nobody Fri Feb 21 05:35:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F0912085C for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:35:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AiKaJuNI6yrc for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60418120859 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id o15so2213358ljg.6 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:35:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=psmj4wcFkGZKvBWv/eLayYKvubvc1JM09BmLl6MgigE=; b=n6J9bNQuTEBGMp0t19l6EYCtU7OTaMX+CIs6G8Tfy/uupfGETDN1OkqAGYhxMgKrH4 1G5BQ/FI+/p16vEDWviSj7I/hFPlidORVE+4bl0UT3UyGd5zqrQ+qETNbi9/9UzQyfkB sBPk8mvkQrseYfeF5UEQ1bs0c+BwAmasaRPxYfo1Zgot6uHZyZU6Sz4O+CaUdQLON2WO oZ8ZcU/cER7IyOD1EtnpISJTH2AXE7dfPJhGJ/6/r3rIEllFzPN5k6EGSTBtBefY93Nu HZptuVjxmp0AglogTwRc8VPBw3d9Ilz2n8iMYMIZP1xmL24UZHuvB1YZB4iuXfvrNPb1 F3iA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=psmj4wcFkGZKvBWv/eLayYKvubvc1JM09BmLl6MgigE=; b=nxGpN7svxnjKUK1JTpCw3oiDySi8fMRCf1aFDghqNFbQ8lK0lE5hsKckmCFckDfnP3 6p2d92wuDvINifqdE53LkAs40TsQndPgrTNBcRQ+CglsNP+QPlZrfTY23mJRD24YcQlN S/fHQ4qikg4DVsMMp4vDgQz78k4Gp7T2Dk5qw21P+LL7gMA/AGMoY2RiWRFIpRAs6UJ4 h7nWX74gYG9hqIGQSSpDu6FfeEQYNHtdEqNddXeeGFzbWpycZL0ErNu7ctqzEl7mhqGy uZR8/musuBC/bWkeVukYd/o/4lZfb1teuDOjYxJiGVzi659UxeJnzxcVdT+4IBBfKplU fC9A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWL57jLIkwvrUQH+sHF4H7jP5rApD+6iQ3Jvfqx/y3eH5Lg9Ssq 4L7yDdqicj0YkENOLb0KQf9eSp0SbjUxbNAXNTK/Rg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqykhfDgDeOmkZ0NIA6kaW+L+j7EA0yCRMaW1/dLd7LMBPdz8AUw3FwFjN3WYaH03SbL/WiGQ0ZGz+Vcg+bwNoY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9b12:: with SMTP id u18mr22324875lji.274.1582292124446; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:35:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> <20b7460348acc2f3d958ab8ed66a70b49448289a.camel@ericsson.com> <82ded3745fe403d24c3866845f5f202f182f9d1e.camel@ericsson.com> <5df6df66bf1d1fdd28d94dfdbf85b17e0f9f4cb2.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <5df6df66bf1d1fdd28d94dfdbf85b17e0f9f4cb2.camel@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:34:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: Miika Komu Cc: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002c616059f1618bb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:35:32 -0000 --00000000000002c616059f1618bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Typically in security protocols we look for demonstrations of this. What is your argument for why it cannot? -Ekr On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:25 AM Miika Komu wrote: > Hi, > > to, 2020-02-20 kello 08:58 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:38 AM Miika Komu > > wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > to, 2020-02-20 kello 06:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu < > > > miika.komu@ericsson.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > > > > > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > > > > > S 5.8. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> 5.8. RELAY_HMAC Parameter > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the > > > > > > > RELAY_HMAC > > > > > > > > > parameter > > > > > > > > > >> value has the TLV type 65520. It has the same > > > > > > > semantics > > > > > > > > > as RVS_HMAC > > > > > > > > > >> [RFC8004]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clarified this as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as specified > > > in > > > > > > > section > > > > > > > > > 4.2.1 > > > > > > > > > in [RFC8004]. Similarly as with RVS_HMAC, also > > > RELAY_HMAC > > > > > is > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > keyed > > > > > > > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as > > > specified > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > section 6.5 > > > > > > > > > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay > > > registration > > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > described in Section 4.1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This seems like it might have potential for cross- > > > protocol > > > > > > > attacks on > > > > > > > > the key. Why > > > > > > > > is this OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The keying > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some > > > attack > > > > > > > scenario, please describe it in detail? > > > > > > > Or is there some editorial issue here? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say that > > > you > > > > > should > > > > > > be using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that > > > correct? > > > > > > > > > > the key is always specific to a Host Association, i.e., unique > > > > > between > > > > > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if there is a Rendezvous > > > > > server > > > > > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a different host and > > > different > > > > > Host > > > > > Association. If the same host provides both rendezvous and > > > relay > > > > > service, it should be fine to reuse the same key. > > > > > > > > Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. Do you have a > > > proof > > > > that it is not possible to have one message mistaken for another? > > > > > > so I assume we are talking about the (artificial) case where a > > > single > > > host provides both Relay and Rendezvous service, and is > > > communicating > > > with a single registered Client? It's the same control channel, so > > > I > > > don't see any need to have different HMAC keys for different > > > messages > > > since it's still the same two hosts. Or maybe I misunderstood your > > > scenario, so please elaborate? > > > > The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attack. Is there > > any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message > > types that are protected with the same key? > > I don't see any case where this could occur. > --00000000000002c616059f1618bb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Typically in security protocols we look for demonstra= tions of this. What is your argument for why it cannot?

<= /div>
-Ekr


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:25 AM Miika Ko= mu <miika.komu@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi= ,

to, 2020-02-20 kello 08:58 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:38 AM Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > to, 2020-02-20 kello 06:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu <
> > miik= a.komu@ericsson.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi Eric,
> > > >
> > > > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoit= ti:
> > > > > > > > > S 5.8.
> > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5.8.=C2=A0 RE= LAY_HMAC Parameter
> > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], the
> > > > > > RELAY_HMAC
> > > > > > > > parameter
> > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= value has the TLV type 65520.=C2=A0 It has the same
> > > > > > semantics
> > > > > > > > as RVS_HMAC
> > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= [RFC8004].
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC?=
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > clarified this as follows:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as R= VS_HMAC as specified
> > in
> > > > > > section
> > > > > > > > 4.2.1
> > > > > > > > in [RFC8004].=C2=A0 Similarly as wi= th RVS_HMAC, also
> > RELAY_HMAC
> > > > is
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > keyed
> > > > > > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg = or HIP-gl as
> > specified
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > section 6.5
> > > > > > > > in [RFC7401]), established during t= he relay
> > registration
> > > > > > procedure
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > described in Section 4.1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This seems like it might have potential = for cross-
> > protocol
> > > > > > attacks on
> > > > > > > the key. Why
> > > > > > > is this OK>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP.= The keying
> > > > procedure
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If the= re is some
> > attack
> > > > > > scenario, please describe it in detail?
> > > > > > Or is there some editorial issue here?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears= to say that
> > you
> > > > should
> > > > > be using the same key for two kinds of messages. I= s that
> > correct?
> > > >
> > > > the key is always specific to a Host Association, i.e.,= unique
> > > > between
> > > > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if there is a Ren= dezvous
> > > > server
> > > > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a different host an= d
> > different
> > > > Host
> > > > Association. If the same host provides both rendezvous = and
> > relay
> > > > service, it should be fine to reuse the same key.
> > >
> > > Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. Do you have= a
> > proof
> > > that it is not possible to have one message mistaken for ano= ther?
> >
> > so I assume we are talking about the (artificial) case where a > > single
> > host provides both Relay and Rendezvous service, and is
> > communicating
> > with a single registered Client? It's the same control channe= l, so
> > I
> > don't see any need to have different HMAC keys for different<= br> > > messages
> > since it's still the same two hosts. Or maybe I misunderstood= your
> > scenario, so please elaborate?
>
> The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attack= . Is there
> any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message
> types that are protected with the same key?

I don't see any case where this could occur.
--00000000000002c616059f1618bb-- From nobody Fri Feb 21 05:39:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C9C12081A for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:39:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E6qWrRKWYkYV for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32215120819 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id n18so2211174ljo.7 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:39:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Gl5ISj8+JIE/+oNpiHplFdtPP46IOkkXfZNqkuQoyuM=; b=vlEQEqioEKrJbebGZZtHssZ8AQ1mAUxlCyX2tAtXdT/CtweCM++Eik+BuGSIkylqYs tQOjWuKhutI3AVkIwFUw9/POXIENxIn6edA8io+aL/PHuvwS638Jfw/LQJbgUZ2bNxhN 3f42FMl8sIw9G/lqG18pQRy08+B6EoYgHx5hDR8JqK7dXwzKo/5k5COW5YfQMT4UxgXm PJ8gJZ7pecnn4tZV2hDEmrQhwHj9BGsjvCa3haPGkCtDIKLn81bVxigjyOx6VqNQmjt1 W+LI2aX9xfe+HSSBOegiRVANRe8FPbaPeKFOXmJabYJ+trU4ylZzoR27eB76VdpEWUu/ avxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Gl5ISj8+JIE/+oNpiHplFdtPP46IOkkXfZNqkuQoyuM=; b=B+HkD2LTLURXiszFJCPgKdTE5D370QL1FCmOC3+2CBp/InjKDJ217R/bLlg//AJwd9 UyJ6GZ30zLdwJy98U/BHdw9Useln8q4/aYiUn3nwbe5UsvZDtDliwE8mxn+JDyM/9H8G hfnYu4Wo/ASLiCifZ7LrY9d4ERTpux8AZ5smZnj4sVM+8U/1cPr5tb8XojyeBgOwYRZL rVWk9KGSBsDcrct9cH1waqsGFTQ2ys+E9cEEgjzNy17BqhRnHzDpF7/KBnI+Af461Pyf 1lw8B19eAn7ltE2ewgW6h9fgfkypJrTN7D1ALg1AXvPLBE1ITYsxjZc7eOumPJN+kmD2 1wiA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWqyyMFvxNMuCo4rtbj+HqqPxUEif5fUEAHcKTszDJvmPHCuJHA 7ha6op2A0n6zzmZmECkwucFvY4Umk91ZJrFgRs3DAg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzwoV2bWz5oc28V1pi813NvQ4tdrTdR6ewxtXXE/hjSJQ+uEYrUSMbV9jPWFgjrDfKHdQ6RbWv/J2/Jr0KDZ/U= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b5a5:: with SMTP id f5mr21911061ljn.162.1582292363222; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:39:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <884374EF-7488-4C00-BDB7-CE203414197E@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <884374EF-7488-4C00-BDB7-CE203414197E@cisco.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:38:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , "hipsec@ietf.org" , Ben Campbell , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Terry Manderson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003de442059f162694" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Re-doing the IESG ballot for draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:39:28 -0000 --0000000000003de442059f162694 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to note for the record that I do not find the arguments in the applicability statement at all persuasive. They are principally about performance but ICE occurs at setup time (so CPU performance is not much of an issue) and is inherently so, with pacing and RTT the dominant factors (and so the system architecture issues are unpersuasive). As I am no longer an AD, this is just opinion, but were I the AD, I would insist on a strong rationale. -Ekr On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:35 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Hi, > > > > The first IESG ballot for the draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal was don= e > in May 2018 and was blocked by a couple of DISCUSS by the 2018 IESG. The > main issue IMHO was around =E2=80=9Cwhy not reusing plain ICE?=E2=80=9D; = the authors in > discussion with Adam Roach have provided an applicability statement and a > justification on why =E2=80=9Cplain ICE=E2=80=9D does not work efficientl= y when combined > with HIP + additional text or replies for the remaining DISCUSS & COMMENT= . > > > > The diff are > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-3= 0&url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28 > > > > I have reviewed all COMMENT and DISCUSS from 2 years ago and it appears t= o > me that they are all addressed (including those from 2018 AD who are no > more AD in 2020 =E2=80=93 they are in cc). The changes in the document ar= e minor > and I am confident that neither a WG Last Call not an IETF Last Call is > required. I am therefore placing the document in the next IESG telechat a= nd > opening a new IESG ballot. > > > > Thank you for the authors on their energy to keep the document useful, > > > > Regards, > > > > -=C3=A9ric > > > --0000000000003de442059f162694 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would like to note for the record that I do not fin= d the arguments in the applicability statement at all persuasive. They are = principally about performance but ICE occurs at setup time (so CPU performa= nce is not much of an issue) and is inherently so, with pacing and RTT the = dominant factors (and so the system architecture issues are unpersuasive). = As I am no longer an AD, this is just opinion, but were I the AD,=C2=A0 I w= ould insist on a strong rationale.

-Ekr
<= div>

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:35 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <<= a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com">evyncke@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi,

= =C2=A0

The fi= rst IESG ballot for the draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal was done in May= 2018 and was blocked by a couple of DISCUSS by the 2018 IESG. The main iss= ue IMHO was around =E2=80=9Cwhy not reusing plain ICE?=E2=80=9D; the authors in discussion with Adam Roach have provid= ed an applicability statement and a justification on why =E2=80=9Cplain ICE= =E2=80=9D does not work efficiently when combined with HIP + additional tex= t or replies for the remaining DISCUSS & COMMENT.<= /p>

=C2=A0

The di= ff are https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversa= l-30&url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28

=C2=A0<= /span>

I have= reviewed all COMMENT and DISCUSS from 2 years ago and it appears to me tha= t they are all addressed (including those from 2018 AD who are no more AD i= n 2020 =E2=80=93 they are in cc). The changes in the document are minor and I am confident that neither a WG Last Call n= ot an IETF Last Call is required. I am therefore placing the document in th= e next IESG telechat and opening a new IESG ballot.

=C2=A0

Thank = you for the authors on their energy to keep the document useful,<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regard= s,

=C2=A0

-=C3= =A9ric

=C2=A0

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Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:56:31 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Eric Rescorla CC: "iesg@ietf.org" , "hipsec@ietf.org" , "Ben Campbell" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Terry Manderson Thread-Topic: Re-doing the IESG ballot for draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal Thread-Index: AQHV6LNXTPJ5sPPEeki3PMuG1vvLV6glpxWAgAAVtwA= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:56:31 +0000 Message-ID: <7ACA1B2A-41D0-46C7-AA70-FE56C477328F@cisco.com> References: <884374EF-7488-4C00-BDB7-CE203414197E@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evyncke@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c1:36:40ba:933b:a7c0:5ae] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 467361b9-94cc-4645-c907-08d7b6d5dade x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1449: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 0320B28BE1 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=40SBCAGUSReCqvvb7x7R+JjOJFSBjydHAyuLSRj5z+w=; b=uJQavpAv9anWtLt2MWHvfI8kfF7kUf0oDSOz3Ks5s/fs8tRZN7+O3ClGtbJZOUJZA+ AtQlZGReuVj80L9bYTacThpQ0XRzY9TioS32M8I80jZF1kl582TBAq2af1Vj7XBDTBrD GEwzA4MluyDJo26+ejZ2jdMqaA1LgpoTK14gDx3qv3OP7pAm2Q8Y5w+bQHGHYOHK68Ty 0iYB9iAT2hzSEFbCWJYnI/WPDde6BsbED9IItJWzrAtDnEfAZp/XqKAG+v9Ywh7tBAeH HPNE4g/MxTnGfDDegBTcxGTyhLySZXUyAav1y+BrumDklPcq+yEHm3Q/PTX/A4Xxalj+ dkmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=40SBCAGUSReCqvvb7x7R+JjOJFSBjydHAyuLSRj5z+w=; b=aB+MTH7bBdfLJZPcnlFXz4Twpu+B33GeXganBg6aEIhAB4icLzo/B2J+LYcyxhV8xU RW/jccb1CVFW83G06RL1su10Zh7osIgvnUApvy8+EX5sLuCkDvycxvXbLcIgMC35hJTo CBCweUvvtQUSW9X5LzgRuzpRI270w18ah2IMF78yhvavQxZ5NJOFKfEdbXCRkMU3I+6x 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Re-doing the IESG ballot for draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 14:53:24 -0000 --000000000000d9cb74059f172d3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:21 AM Miika Komu wrote: > Hi Eric, > > I disagree about the overhead occuring only during set up time because > STUN message format is incompatible with ESP formatting, so an > implementation needs to constantly monitor and intercept STUN packets > from the data-plane traffic. This causes a continuous overhead to the > data plane, so it is not only about set up time. Please check the draft > or hipsec mailing for more detailed discussion on this. > Assuming you're talking about Appendix B, this is just a bare assertion that is no more convincing than the one you make here. I would make several points here: 1. STUN packets are trivial to detect and that detection is *far* cheaper than doing any kind of cryptographic processing. Moreover, you only need to invoke it once you have determined that you don't have an ESP packet on your hands, which you have to do *anyway*, because you need to demux ESP packets from HIP setup packets. Failing that, you could just do STUN demuxing for packets which are unprocessable as ESP (which you would need to have some code for anyway). 2. Once the ICE handshake has completed, the only reason to send STUN packets is for keepalives, which ICE explicitly permits to be able to sent by non-STUN mechanisms, so you could simply profile ICE to use a non-STUN keepalive. Beyond that, you can simply ignore STUN as long as there aren't any connections being set up. To the extent to which your argument relies one endpoint performance, I really think that some measurements and a demonstration that you attempted to optimize the code in the obvious ways are in order. More generally, this sort of non-specific performance argument is often adduced in favor of designing something new, but ICE is a very complicated piece of machinery that has taken the IETF quite a lot of time to build and refine. This protocol is subtly different in ways that don't seem entirely obvious and so I think we should be quite cautious about issuing it as a Proposed Standard when we have a pre-existing protocol at hand, given that the arguments for doing so seem to rest on a rather thin set of arguments about performance. -Ekr > pe, 2020-02-21 kello 05:38 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > I would like to note for the record that I do not find the arguments > > in the applicability statement at all persuasive. They are > > principally about performance but ICE occurs at setup time (so CPU > > performance is not much of an issue) and is inherently so, with > > pacing and RTT the dominant factors (and so the system architecture > > issues are unpersuasive). As I am no longer an AD, this is just > > opinion, but were I the AD, I would insist on a strong rationale. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:35 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) < > > evyncke@cisco.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > The first IESG ballot for the draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal > > > was done in May 2018 and was blocked by a couple of DISCUSS by the > > > 2018 IESG. The main issue IMHO was around =E2=80=9Cwhy not reusing pl= ain > > > ICE?=E2=80=9D; the authors in discussion with Adam Roach have provide= d an > > > applicability statement and a justification on why =E2=80=9Cplain ICE= =E2=80=9D does > > > not work efficiently when combined with HIP + additional text or > > > replies for the remaining DISCUSS & COMMENT. > > > > > > The diff are > > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-3= 0&url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28 > > > > > > I have reviewed all COMMENT and DISCUSS from 2 years ago and it > > > appears to me that they are all addressed (including those from > > > 2018 AD who are no more AD in 2020 =E2=80=93 they are in cc). The cha= nges > > > in the document are minor and I am confident that neither a WG Last > > > Call not an IETF Last Call is required. I am therefore placing the > > > document in the next IESG telechat and opening a new IESG ballot. > > > > > > Thank you for the authors on their energy to keep the document > > > useful, > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Hipsec mailing list > > Hipsec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec > --000000000000d9cb74059f172d3c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:21 AM Miika= Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.co= m> wrote:
Hi Eric,

I disagree about the overhead occuring only during set up time because
STUN message format is incompatible with ESP formatting, so an
implementation needs to constantly monitor and intercept STUN packets
from the data-plane traffic. This causes a continuous overhead to the
data plane, so it is not only about set up time. Please check the draft
or hipsec mailing for more detailed discussion on this.

Assuming you're talking about Appendix B, this is just= a bare assertion that is no more convincing than the one you make here.

I would make several points here:

=
1. STUN packets are trivial to detect and that detection is *far= * cheaper than doing any kind of cryptographic processing. Moreover, you on= ly need to invoke it once you have determined that you don't have an ES= P packet on your hands, which you have to do *anyway*, because you need to = demux ESP packets from HIP setup packets.
Failing that, you = could just do STUN demuxing for packets which are unprocessable as ESP (whi= ch you would need to have some code for anyway).
2. Once the= ICE handshake has completed, the only reason to send STUN packets is for k= eepalives, which ICE explicitly permits to be able to sent by non-STUN mech= anisms, so you could simply profile ICE to use a non-STUN keepalive. Beyond= that, you can simply ignore STUN as long as there aren't any connectio= ns being set up.

To the extent to which your argum= ent relies one endpoint performance, I really think that some measurements = and a demonstration that you attempted to optimize the code in the obvious = ways are in order. More generally, this sort of non-specific performance ar= gument is often adduced in favor of designing something new, but ICE is a v= ery complicated piece of machinery that has taken the IETF quite a lot of t= ime to build and refine. This protocol is subtly different in ways that don= 't seem entirely obvious and so I think we should be quite cautious abo= ut issuing it as a Proposed Standard when we have a pre-existing protocol a= t hand, given that the arguments for doing so seem to rest on a rather thin= set of arguments about performance.

-Ekr



pe, 2020-02-21 kello 05:38 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
> I would like to note for the record that I do not find the arguments > in the applicability statement at all persuasive. They are
> principally about performance but ICE occurs at setup time (so CPU
> performance is not much of an issue) and is inherently so, with
> pacing and RTT the dominant factors (and so the system architecture > issues are unpersuasive). As I am no longer an AD, this is just
> opinion, but were I the AD,=C2=A0 I would insist on a strong rationale= .
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:35 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <
> evyncke@cisco.c= om> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >=C2=A0
> > The first IESG ballot for the draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal=
> > was done in May 2018 and was blocked by a couple of DISCUSS by th= e
> > 2018 IESG. The main issue IMHO was around =E2=80=9Cwhy not reusin= g plain
> > ICE?=E2=80=9D; the authors in discussion with Adam Roach have pro= vided an
> > applicability statement and a justification on why =E2=80=9Cplain= ICE=E2=80=9D does
> > not work efficiently when combined with HIP + additional text or<= br> > > replies for the remaining DISCUSS & COMMENT.
> >=C2=A0
> > The diff are
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft= -ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30&url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav= ersal-28
> >=C2=A0
> > I have reviewed all COMMENT and DISCUSS from 2 years ago and it > > appears to me that they are all addressed (including those from > > 2018 AD who are no more AD in 2020 =E2=80=93 they are in cc). The= changes
> > in the document are minor and I am confident that neither a WG La= st
> > Call not an IETF Last Call is required. I am therefore placing th= e
> > document in the next IESG telechat and opening a new IESG ballot.=
> >=C2=A0
> > Thank you for the authors on their energy to keep the document > > useful,
> >=C2=A0
> > Regards,
> >=C2=A0
> > -=C3=A9ric
> >=C2=A0
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hipsec mailing list
> Hipsec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec
--000000000000d9cb74059f172d3c-- From nobody Fri Feb 21 06:54:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D0C120898 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:53:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eIfvJT9PlRyt for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC967120880 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id 83so1684050lfh.9 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:53:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TUT5x4l0n7yijh1yU+VFJscCtxilGv5RJgTyMdzzdQk=; b=UqzjBE34xemnoueFyoWctTNkTtcFjYcilWQPA7laQZ5FjFCz/Lna1fu0u2/pmMFtmk u81qCMA1PkjPa+adud+fyzjC2uxRVaky5GGV56p50FxecVkbZ7MdIXOrOJjM5H2MKj+R mRvL50oS9AU05zGteZNLIRoHN1QEvt1h9pdOGlvRxW28CfquDKq8bQEJvRIfVj/ZHS4M l4TGDTErpScYijJuyNiIATzRL/R09+JAmubFCC+RR3mFeur6/sbZ2ji25T+ut+lsKQ15 nZ27gRo6DqNbFD5KmGXjcts/b8WeUwq7DPY2ePS5PsXf/NgJuPqAwVKy4pgXwru1CkD+ Cd2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TUT5x4l0n7yijh1yU+VFJscCtxilGv5RJgTyMdzzdQk=; b=AY1BEXLjcDFiHajMeMOtWA72/VP6AzZBVYwwzgmsprgB4gW/rDN2wdCVLQkWtvAedp b/+44JhN8pam6WxL4/A0xd8phh7BV9CIzNvo5ln+TvdnQBD8fzlUnYLCowNdkeE3+ttn FLKu12hEaWaxYmCmuCErlXuESEd5iPietvbP1jZgWz+ABkBQdIs4YBrhAJ6+J1ZyOuaY kfJyaYmt40WCCr07uGmYnvucRqyeTUMzWw4hkLz2llKeHBSUYwNoeIF5A6z5cW5lwx6J Ql2DU+G2sVpYg5z1UrfLYy7DzWAqeAvDhj1kDaYj2wi3cMpUoh41qeEEe2xy+2B24xwh MzEg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXb5eCY/tpI6Gsjo8QObQUYqF/irK097Qrpu4djKrq47IDdYEWW OOK8dsOoHcNF3IjigsjZhlTxYxKUv11k8Mlyj5ZqRw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxyWrxmO5PTDFf8j87Iy4KDZuAkU7Ys7QHAF01Y+KuSh+nXCctz/mtWM6+vwb0/R17u36niWPDqs4CJVY7bceU= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:53b9:: with SMTP id j25mr19669197lfh.140.1582296827119; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:53:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152546246777.11589.13288594519409569524.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <47c0cdb7980fa6b9d85d71de926d24ea50a90930.camel@ericsson.com> <20b7460348acc2f3d958ab8ed66a70b49448289a.camel@ericsson.com> <82ded3745fe403d24c3866845f5f202f182f9d1e.camel@ericsson.com> <5df6df66bf1d1fdd28d94dfdbf85b17e0f9f4cb2.camel@ericsson.com> <163d9a999e5eac1130377dd104f602cfea789506.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <163d9a999e5eac1130377dd104f602cfea789506.camel@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:53:10 -0800 Message-ID: To: Miika Komu Cc: "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f60c4059f1730e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 14:54:02 -0000 --0000000000004f60c4059f1730e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I do not have time to assess this claim. I would encourage the security ADs to do so. On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:36 AM Miika Komu wrote: > Hi Eric, > > so your original question was: > > "The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attack. Is there > any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message > types that are protected with the same key?" > > No ambiguity about the message types, because the messages between > relay client and relay server carry always either a RELAY_FROM or > RELAY_TO parameter (depending on direction) and this is covered by the > HMAC. > > In the rendezvous case, you have different FROM and VIA_RVS parameters, > also covered by HMACs. > > pe, 2020-02-21 kello 05:34 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > Typically in security protocols we look for demonstrations of this. > > What is your argument for why it cannot? > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:25 AM Miika Komu > > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > to, 2020-02-20 kello 08:58 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:38 AM Miika Komu < > > > miika.komu@ericsson.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > > > > > to, 2020-02-20 kello 06:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu < > > > > > miika.komu@ericsson.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti: > > > > > > > > > > > > S 5.8. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> 5.8. RELAY_HMAC Parameter > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770], > > > the > > > > > > > > > RELAY_HMAC > > > > > > > > > > > parameter > > > > > > > > > > > >> value has the TLV type 65520. It has the > > > same > > > > > > > > > semantics > > > > > > > > > > > as RVS_HMAC > > > > > > > > > > > >> [RFC8004]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What key is used for the HMAC? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clarified this as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [..] It has the same semantics as RVS_HMAC as > > > specified > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > section > > > > > > > > > > > 4.2.1 > > > > > > > > > > > in [RFC8004]. Similarly as with RVS_HMAC, also > > > > > RELAY_HMAC > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > keyed > > > > > > > > > > > with the HIP integrity key (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as > > > > > specified > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > section 6.5 > > > > > > > > > > > in [RFC7401]), established during the relay > > > > > registration > > > > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > described in Section 4.1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This seems like it might have potential for cross- > > > > > protocol > > > > > > > > > attacks on > > > > > > > > > > the key. Why > > > > > > > > > > is this OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is standard way of deriving keys in HIP. The > > > keying > > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the same as with specified in RFC8004. If there is some > > > > > attack > > > > > > > > > scenario, please describe it in detail? > > > > > > > > > Or is there some editorial issue here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure. When I read this text it appears to say > > > that > > > > > you > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > be using the same key for two kinds of messages. Is that > > > > > correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the key is always specific to a Host Association, i.e., > > > unique > > > > > > > between > > > > > > > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if there is a > > > Rendezvous > > > > > > > server > > > > > > > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a different host and > > > > > different > > > > > > > Host > > > > > > > Association. If the same host provides both rendezvous and > > > > > relay > > > > > > > service, it should be fine to reuse the same key. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. Do you have > > > a > > > > > proof > > > > > > that it is not possible to have one message mistaken for > > > another? > > > > > > > > > > so I assume we are talking about the (artificial) case where a > > > > > single > > > > > host provides both Relay and Rendezvous service, and is > > > > > communicating > > > > > with a single registered Client? It's the same control channel, > > > so > > > > > I > > > > > don't see any need to have different HMAC keys for different > > > > > messages > > > > > since it's still the same two hosts. Or maybe I misunderstood > > > your > > > > > scenario, so please elaborate? > > > > > > > > The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attack. Is > > > there > > > > any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message > > > > types that are protected with the same key? > > > > > > I don't see any case where this could occur. > --0000000000004f60c4059f1730e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do not have time to assess this claim. I would encourage= the security ADs to do so.

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:36 AM Miika Komu &= lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&g= t; wrote:
Hi Eri= c,

so your original question was:

"The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol" attac= k. Is there
any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two message
types that are protected with the same key?"

No ambiguity about the message types, because the messages between
relay client and relay server carry always either a RELAY_FROM or
RELAY_TO parameter (depending on direction) and this is covered by the
HMAC.

In the rendezvous case, you have different FROM and VIA_RVS parameters,
also covered by HMACs.

pe, 2020-02-21 kello 05:34 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
> Typically in security protocols we look for demonstrations of this. > What is your argument for why it cannot?
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:25 AM Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > to, 2020-02-20 kello 08:58 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoitti:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:38 AM Miika Komu <
> > miik= a.komu@ericsson.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi Eric,
> > > >
> > > > to, 2020-02-20 kello 06:04 -0800, Eric Rescorla kirjoit= ti:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:50 PM Miika Komu < > > > > miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Eric,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ke, 2020-02-19 kello 13:20 -0800, Eric Rescor= la kirjoitti:
> > > > > > > > > > > S 5.8.
> > > > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5.8= .=C2=A0 RELAY_HMAC Parameter
> > > > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0As specified in Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770],
> > the
> > > > > > > > RELAY_HMAC
> > > > > > > > > > parameter
> > > > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0value has the TLV type 65520.=C2=A0 It has the
> > same
> > > > > > > > semantics
> > > > > > > > > > as RVS_HMAC
> > > > > > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0[RFC8004].
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What key is used for= the HMAC?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > clarified this as follows= :
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [..] It has the same sema= ntics as RVS_HMAC as
> > specified
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > section
> > > > > > > > > > 4.2.1
> > > > > > > > > > in [RFC8004].=C2=A0 Simil= arly as with RVS_HMAC, also
> > > > RELAY_HMAC
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > keyed
> > > > > > > > > > with the HIP integrity ke= y (HIP-lg or HIP-gl as
> > > > specified
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > section 6.5
> > > > > > > > > > in [RFC7401]), establishe= d during the relay
> > > > registration
> > > > > > > > procedure
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > described in Section 4.1.=
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This seems like it might have = potential for cross-
> > > > protocol
> > > > > > > > attacks on
> > > > > > > > > the key. Why
> > > > > > > > > is this OK>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this is standard way of deriving ke= ys in HIP. The
> > keying
> > > > > > procedure
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > the same as with specified in RFC80= 04. If there is some
> > > > attack
> > > > > > > > scenario, please describe it in det= ail?
> > > > > > > > Or is there some editorial issue he= re?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not sure. When I read this text = it appears to say
> > that
> > > > you
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be using the same key for two kinds of m= essages. Is that
> > > > correct?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the key is always specific to a Host Associat= ion, i.e.,
> > unique
> > > > > > between
> > > > > > a Relay Client and a Relay Server. So if ther= e is a
> > Rendezvous
> > > > > > server
> > > > > > (used with RVS_HMAC), this would be a differe= nt host and
> > > > different
> > > > > > Host
> > > > > > Association. If the same host provides both r= endezvous and
> > > > relay
> > > > > > service, it should be fine to reuse the same = key.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why is that OK? Generally we try not to do this. D= o you have
> > a
> > > > proof
> > > > > that it is not possible to have one message mistak= en for
> > another?
> > > >
> > > > so I assume we are talking about the (artificial) case = where a
> > > > single
> > > > host provides both Relay and Rendezvous service, and is=
> > > > communicating
> > > > with a single registered Client? It's the same cont= rol channel,
> > so
> > > > I
> > > > don't see any need to have different HMAC keys for = different
> > > > messages
> > > > since it's still the same two hosts. Or maybe I mis= understood
> > your
> > > > scenario, so please elaborate?
> > >
> > > The concern is what's known as a "cross-protocol&qu= ot; attack. Is
> > there
> > > any situation in which there might be ambiguity about two me= ssage
> > > types that are protected with the same key?
> >
> > I don't see any case where this could occur.
--0000000000004f60c4059f1730e6-- From nobody Sat Feb 22 02:41:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54239120074; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 02:41:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org, Gonzalo Camarillo , hip-chairs@ietf.org, gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com, hipsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <158236811525.7699.3739934202188614846.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 02:41:55 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Yes_on_draft-ietf-hip-de?= =?utf-8?q?x-13=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 10:41:55 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-hip-dex-13: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This document was deferred by Terry Manderson in May 2018. The authors have taken into account all COMMENTs from the 2018 ballot, changing several parts of the document based on those COMMENTs. The document went successfully through a new IETF last call and the authors have addressed all points raised during this Last Call. So I am balloting the approval again in front of the 2019 IESG members. -éric From nobody Mon Feb 24 09:15:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2802A3A0EDB; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:15:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Roach via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org, hip-chairs@ietf.org, hipsec@ietf.org, Gonzalo Camarillo , gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Adam Roach Message-ID: <158256455409.5317.3970484745957517223.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:15:54 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:15:54 -0000 Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to the authors for taking some of the concerns I laid out in my original ballot into account. I still do not believe this approach is good for HIP's benefit, but am no longer worried about collateral damage from other protocols imitating this approach. Accordingly, I am balloting "No Objection." There is one remaining comment from my initial review that I think can and should be addressed prior to publication: Appendix B: > o Unlike in ICE, the addresses are not XOR-ed in Native ICE-HIP > protocol in order to avoid middlebox tampering. This bullet should explain why such obfuscation is unnecessary. From nobody Tue Feb 25 11:00:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9543A12E0; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 11:00:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0WLv2s4xlq9R; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 11:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FFE33A1103; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 11:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 01PJ0AXB015289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 25 Feb 2020 14:00:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 11:00:10 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Miika Komu Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "hipsec@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200225190010.GB56312@kduck.mit.edu> References: <152587816145.3957.17385929656409014655.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <83fe234a038ca40ab181523bbbe3e4eb253c9e06.camel@ericsson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83fe234a038ca40ab181523bbbe3e4eb253c9e06.camel@ericsson.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 19:00:25 -0000 On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 05:22:35PM +0000, Miika Komu wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > thanks for the very detailed comments and apologies for my extremely > slow reaction! My corrections are below. If you think I haven't > addressed your concerns, please let me know. > > ke, 2018-05-09 kello 08:02 -0700, Benjamin Kaduk kirjoitti: > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > > this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > COMMENT: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > > > This document does a poor job at convincing me that there > > is a need to re-specify ICE for use in HIP contexts as opposed to > > just using ICE directly, up until Appendix B. I'd suggest moving > > some of the key points into at least the Introduction and arguably > > the Abstract as well, to make it clear that this is not just > > needless duplication for ideological purity. > > as discussed in earlier reviews, I have already added some text to the > introduction: > > HIP poses a unique challenge to using standard ICE, due not > only to its kernel-space implementation, but also due to its > close integration with kernel-space IPSec; and, that while RFC5770" > provides a technically workable path, it incurs > unacceptable performance drawbacks for kernel-space > implementations. Also, implementing and integrating a full > ICE/STUN/TURN protocol stack as specified > in Legacy ICE-HIP results in a considerable amount of effort and > code which could be avoided by re-using and extending HIP > messages and state machines for the same purpose. [...] > The differences to the Legacy ICE-HIP are further elaborated in Section > [...] > > As requested by your, I updated the last sentence of the abstract as > follows: > > The main difference from the previously specified modes is the use of > HIP messages instead of ICE for all NAT traversal procedures due to its > kernel-space dependencies. > > > I think there's some lingering terminology confusion (as a result of > > needing to align the new bits in Native HIP-ICE with those retained > > from RFC 5077, along with the move from 5245 to 5245bis. > > Specifically, while it's fine for this document to refer to "ICE > > offer" and "ICE answer", 5245bis itself does not talk of "offer" and > > "answer", which are now concepts only in SDP, IIUC. > > RFC8445 mentions "offer/answer" as an example but I agree it is more of > an SDP terminology. The offer/answer + nat traversal procedures are > coupled into a single control plane (=HIP), hence we are combining > terminology from both the specifications. I updated the terminology a > bit to reflect your comments better: > > HIP offer: > Before two end-hosts can establish a communication channel using > the NAT traversal procedures defined in this document, they need > exchange their locators (i.e. candidates) with each other. In > ICE, this procedure is called Candidate Exchange and it does > specify how the candidates are exchanged but Session Description > Protocol (SDP) "offer/answer" is mentioned as an example. In > contrast, the Candidate Exchange in HIP is the base exchange > itself or a subsequent UPDATE prodecure occurring after a > handover. Following [RFC5770] and Session Description Protocol > (SDP) [RFC3264] naming conventions, "HIP offer" is the the > Initiator's LOCATOR_SET parameter in a HIP I2 or in an UPDATE > control packet. > > HIP answer: > The Responder's LOCATOR_SET parameter in a HIP R2 control packet. > Corresponds to the SDP answer parameter [RFC3264], but is HIP > specific. Please refer also to the longer description of the > "HIP offer" term above. > > > Things also > > seem a bit hazy about server reflexive vs. server relay candidates > > (though maybe here the confusion is just on my end) -- in regular > > ICE, a server reflexive candidate is obtained by a STUN client > > making a one-shot request of a STUN server to find out what address > > is being used on the other side of a NAT, and doesn't require any > > state on the STUN server. But in this document we have a > > SERVER_REFLEXIVE_CANDIDATE_ALLOCATION_FAILED Notify/error packet > > that implies that state is needed on the Data Relay Server for a > > reflexive candidate, text about "when the relay service is split > > between hosts, the server reflexive candidate [from Control SHOULD > > be used over the one from Data]", and also other discussion about > > needing to register new reflexive candidates to avoid collisions or > > in potential multihoming future work. > > you have a valid point, I have added the following text to Appendix B > to the STUN discussion: > > It is worth noting that a drawback of not employing STUN is that > discovery of the address candidates requires creating (using HIP base > exchange) and maintaining (using HIP UPDATE procedures) state at the > Control Relay Client and Control Relay Server. Future extensions to > this document may define a stateless, HIP-specific mechanism for a end- > host to discover its address candidates. > > > Some section-by-section comments follow. > > > > Section 2 > > > > Responder: > > The Responder is the host that receives the I1 packet from the > > Initiator. > > > > Does this still hold if the message is misdelivered or an attacker > > is in the network? > > If misdelivered, the HITs don't match and the receiver host drops the > packet as documented in the base exchange specification in RFC7401 A well-behaved receiver host drops the packet; what if the host is under the control of an attacker? > (which is the basis for the NAT traversal extensions). Also the case > when both ends initiate with each other at the same time is documented > in RFC7401. The attacker scenarios are also addressed in RFC7401. > > Some potential new threats arising from the extensions are addressed in > section 6.3, 6.5, 6.6. and 6.7. > > > Section 3 > > > > [...] At this point, also the HIP signaling can be sent over the > > same address/port pair, and is demultiplexed from IPsec as > > described > > in the UDP encapsulation standard for IPsec [RFC3948]. > > > > "demultiplex" does not appear anywhere in RFC 3948; it might be > > worth using a few more words here to clarify what is going on. > > demultiplexed has been used, e.g., here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5761 > > But you're correct, RFC3948 does not use this word, so I changed the > text as follows: > > ...demultiplexed (or, in other words, separated) from IPsec as > described.. > > > Section 4.1 > > > > A Control Relay Server MUST silently drop packets to a Control > > Relay > > Client that has not previously registered with the HIP relay. > > > > How does the relay know where they are targetted without the > > registration information? > > you right, this is a bit of a no-op. I removed the sentence. > > > This applies both renewals of service registration but also to > > host > > movement, where especially the latter requires the Control Relay > > Client to learn its new server reflexive address candidate. > > > > This is kind of awkward wording; maybe: > > > > This applies to both renewals of service registration and to host > > movement. It is especially important for the case of host > > movement, as this is the mechanism that allows the Control Relay > > Client to learn its new server reflexive address candidate. > > thanks, changed as you suggested. > > > Section 4.2 > > > > [...] A host SHOULD employ only a single server for > > gathering the candidates for a single HIP association; either one > > server providing both Control and Data Relay Server functionality, > > or > > one Control Relay Server and also Data Relay Server if the > > functionality is offered by another server. > > > > The second half of this sentence seems to contradict the SHOULD, so > > probably some rewording is in order. > > good catch. Also Eric Rescolarla commented this: > > "Well, with multi-layered NAT, you actually want a STUN server at each > level so that you minimize hairpinning. But you recommend against that > here." > > So I took the unnecessary constraint out and removed the following two > sentences: > > A host SHOULD employ only a single server for gathering the candidates > for a single HIP association; either one server providing both Control > and Data Relay Server functionality, or one Control Relay Server and > also Data Relay Server if the functionality is offered by > another server. When the relay service is split between two hosts, the > server reflexive candidate from the Control Relay Server SHOULD > be used instead of the one provided by the Data Relay Server. > > > [...] If a relayed candidate is identical to a host > > candidate, the relayed candidate must be discarded. NAT64 > > considerations in [I-D.ietf-ice-rfc5245bis] apply as well. > > > > I don't think this has enough detail of reference to ICE -- a > > relayed candidate being identical to a host candidate is, IIUC, > > quite unexpected. This is even noted in 5245bis, at the bottom of > > page 20 (of the -20). > > thanks, I adapted the text from the ICE specification to fit here, and > changed the text as follows: > > Similarly as explained in section 5.1.1.2 of the ICE specification > [RFC8445], if an IPv6-only host is in a network that utilizes NAT64 > [RFC6146] and DNS64 [RFC6147] technologies, it may also gather IPv4 > server- reflexive and/or relayed candidates from IPv4-only Control or > Data Relay Servers. IPv6-only hosts SHOULD also utilize IPv6 prefix > discovery [RFC7050] to discover the IPv6 prefix used by NAT64 (if any) > and generate server-reflexive candidates for each IPv6-only interface, > accordingly. The NAT64 server-reflexive candidates are prioritized > like IPv4 server-reflexive candidates. > > > Unlike ICE, this protocol only creates a single UDP flow between > > the > > two communicating hosts, so only a single component > > exists. Hence, > > the component ID value MUST always be set to 1. > > > > ICE or SDP? > > I changed as follows: > > Unlike with SDP used in conjunction with ICE... > > > Section 4.5 > > > > In step 2, the Control Relay Server receives the I1 packet. If > > the > > destination HIT belongs to a registered Responder, the Control > > Relay > > Server processes the packet. > > > > Do HIP participants register specifically as Responder/Initiator, or > > is this just that the entity that is Responder in this exchange, has > > registered at the Control Relay Server? > > I think this is common confusion stemming from RFC8003 and RFC8004 :) > > Initiator just means the participant sending the I1 of the base > exchange, and responder is the participant receiving the I1 and > responding with an R1. And there are two base exchanges involved: one > during registration and the other one where the actual NAT traversal > procedures take place. Perhaps this clarifies the situation: > > Base exchange 1: the registration (=base exchange with some extra > parameters) you have the following roles: > * Control Relay Client = Initiator1 > * Control Relay Server = Responder1 > > Base exchange 2: during a base exchange via a HIP relay, the roles are > as follows: > * Initiator2 = (for example a web browser connecting to a HIT of > Responder2) > * Control Relay Server = same as above (i.e. HIP message forwarder) > * Responder2 = (for example a web server) > > (Note that the numbers 1-1 and 2-2 are coupled with each other) > > After the second base echange, Initiator2 and Responder2 initiate the > NAT traversal procedures with each other. > > We have chosen to name the end-hosts just as "Initiator" and > "Responder" in this section because the registration is documented in a > separate section. The terminology is aligned with RFC7401 but I can > understand your confusion :) I don't think I'm actually confused, but I'm saying that if we talk about a "registered Responder", a reasonable reader might infer that there is some entity that has registered to be a Responder, which is not exactly what's going on -- there's an entity that has registered, and registration is needed in order to be a responder when behind a NAT, and it happens to be the responder this time. But it is free to be an initiator for other exchanges without additional registration. > > [...] The > > RELAY_TO parameter is not integrity protected by the signature of > > the > > R1 to allow pre-created R1 packets at the Responder. > > > > This seems to allow an attacker to replay R1 packets and have the > > Relay transmit them to the Initiator. Are there cases where this > > presents an increase in attacker capabilities (e.g., when the Relay > > is allowed to send to the Initiator but the attacker is not)? > > (When would such pre-created R1 packets be useful?) > > this feature is inherited from RFC7401 and benefits are documented > there: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7401#section-4.1.1 > > the replay protection is also documented there: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7401#section-4.1.4 > > > Should step 7 explicitly duplicate the "validate REPLAY_HMAC" part > > of step 3? > > yes, good catch. I added to step 7: > > The Responder validates the RELAY_HMAC > according to [RFC8004] and silently drops the packet if the > validation fails. > > > Section 4.6 > > > > The situation with the (non-)existence of aggressive nomination > > between > > 5245bis and MMUSIC-ICE probably merits further investigation. > > (That is, it may not be necessary to mention explicitly that regular > > nomination is used.) > > this was a remainder from an earlier ICE draft version. Also noted by > other reviewers, and this statement has been removed. > > > The Initiator MUST take the role of controlling host and the > > Responder acts as the controlled host. The roles MUST persist > > throughout the HIP associate lifetime (to be reused in the > > possibly > > mobility UPDATE procedures). In the case both communicating nodes > > are initiating the communications to each other using an I1 > > packet, > > the conflict is resolved as defined in section 6.7 in [RFC7401]: > > the > > host with the "larger" HIT changes to its Role to Responder. In > > such > > a case, the host changing its role to Responder MUST also switch > > to > > controlling role. > > > > The last clause seems to not match the earlier text about the > > Initiator being the controlling role. > > thanks, good catch. Changed to: > > In such a case, the host changing its role to Responder MUST also > switch to controlled > role. > > > Section 4.6.1 > > > > In step 2, the Initiator sends a connectivity check, using the > > same > > address pair candidate as in the previous step, and the message > > traverses successfully the NAT boxes. The message includes the > > same > > parameters as in the previous step. It should be noted that the > > sequence identifier is locally assigned by the Responder, so it > > can > > be different than in the previous step. > > > > Step 2 is from Initiator to Responder, and the message in step 1 got > > dropped, so I'm quite confused at how the sequence identifier in > > step 2 could be assigned by the Responder as opposed to the > > Initiator. > > > > Step 4 could say whether the sequence number from step 1 is reused > > or a new one is allocated for the retransmission (even though it is > > clarified later as "SHOULD be sent with the same sequence > > identifier"). > > thanks good catch, I corrected step 2 as follows: > > It should be noted that the sequence identifier is locally > assigned by the *Initiator*, so it can be different than in > the previous step. > > > Section 4.7.2 > > > > [...] However, the > > Responder SHOULD NOT send any ESP to the Initiator's address > > before > > it has received data from the Initiator, as specified in Sections > > 4.4.3. and 6.9 of [RFC7401] and in Sections 3.2.9 and 5.4 of > > [RFC8046]. > > > > I don't see a Section 3.2.9 in RFC 8046. > > the sentence was coming from earlier iterations of the RFCs and was > actually somewhat accurate. Looking at the specs in detail again, the > SHOULD NOT statement is not in the final RFCs, so I have removed the > sentence, and instead modified the previous sentence: > > Instead, if R2 and I2 are received and processed successfully, a > security association can be created and UDP-encapsulated ESP can be > exchanged between the hosts after the base exchange completes > *according to the rules in Section 4.4 in [RFC7401]*. > > > Since an I2 packet with UDP-ENCAPSULATION NAT traversal mode > > selected > > MUST NOT be sent via a Control Relay Server, the Responder SHOULD > > reject such I2 packets and reply with a > > NO_VALID_NAT_TRAVERSAL_MODE_PARAMETER NOTIFY packet (see > > Section 5.10). > > > > How does this mesh with a few paragraphs back, when the Responder > > MUST include the address it got by registering at a Control Relay > > Server in its R1 (only when it is including UDP-ENCAPSULATION NAT as > > one of its supported modes)? > > Some connecting dots missing... a Control Relay Server can be used only > with the ICE-HIP-UDP mode but with UDP-ENCAPSULATION mode is can still > be used for discovery of address candidates (i.e. registration only). > > So clarified this "few paragraphs back" as follows: > > If the Responder has registered to a Control Relay Server *in order to > discover its address candidates*, it MUST also include a LOCATOR_SET > parameter in R1 that contains a preferred address where the Responder > is able to receive UDP-encapsulated ESP and HIP packets. > > And I clarified the other sentence as follows (added the first extra > sentence): > > The Control Relay Server can be used for discovering address candidates > but it is not intended to be used for relaying end-host packets using > the UDP-ENCAPSULATION NAT mode. Since an I2 packet with UDP- > ENCAPSULATION NAT traversal mode selected MUST NOT be [...] > > > Section 4.7.3 > > > > [...] The Initiator may receive multiple R1 packets, with > > and without UDP encapsulation, from the Responder. However, after > > receiving a valid R1 and answering it with an I2, further R1 > > packets > > that are not retransmissions of the original R1 message MUST be > > ignored. > > > > We just said there may be multiple, so which one is "the" original > > R1 message? > > reworded this as follows: > > However, after receiving a valid R1 and answering it with an I2, > further R1 packets that are not retransmissions of the R1 message > received first MUST be ignored. > > > Should Section 4.8 repeat the earlier admonitions against a Relay > > Server forwarding traffic that does not involve a Client that has > > egistered with that Relay Server? > > as I noted earlier, IMHO this is a no-op since the it would know where > to relay them anyways. > > > Section 4.9 > > > > The relay still has to apply RELAY_HMAC; that's just not currently > > shown in the diagram, right? > > yes, omitted in the figure but described in the text. It was also > omitted from the earlier figure number 4 in order to keep the figure > size more compact. > > > Section 5.6 > > > > The format of the REG_FROM, RELAY_FROM, and RELAY_TO parameters is > > shown in Figure 10. All parameters are identical except for the > > type. REG_FROM is the only parameter covered with the signature. > > > > I suggest "Of the three, only REG_FROM is covered by the signature." > > thanks, fixed as you suggested. > > > Section 6.1 > > > > The RFC 5770 text talks about TURN servers, but that's no longer > > applicable in this document (instead, Data Relay Servers are used to > > relay data in a similar usage). > > fixed: > > With such a legacy NAT, the only option left would be to use a relayed > transport address from an *Control Relay Server* server. The "fixed" version says "Control Relay" but I thought it was going to be "Data Relay"; you didn't explicitly tell me I was wrong about it, so please confirm one way or the other... Thanks for the updates! -Ben > > Also, the protection against DoS described in the last paragraph > > seems to only be partial protection, since incoming connections can > > still be affected by DoS, but outgoing ones are still possible. > > true, changed as follows: > > This *partially* protects the Responder against Denial-of-Service... > > > Section 6.2 > > > > This is the first mention of Opportunistic Mode at all in the > > document; it might be nice to refer to the section of 7401 where > > it's documented. > > added: > > In opportunistic HIP mode (cf. Section 4.1.8 in [RFC7401]), [...] > > > Section 6.6 > > > > Is the invalid list of candidates sent *for* its peer or *to* its > > peer? > > should be "to", this is corrected now. > > > Appendix B > > > > o Unlike in ICE, the addresses are not XOR-ed in Native ICE-HIP > > protocol in order to avoid middlebox tampering. > > > > This reads a bit oddly. Just to check: we don't need to do the > > XORing in Native ICE-HIP because the addresses are covered by an > > HMAC and the "tampering" wouldn't work? > > If so I'd suggest: > > > > o In ICE, addresses being conveyed across a NAT are XOR-ed to > > prevent middlebox tampering. Native ICE-HIP does not need to > > use XOR because such tampering is prevented at the HIP layer. > > based on feedback from Eric Rescorla, we changed this text earlier as > follows: > > Unlike in ICE, the addresses are not XOR-ed in Native ICE-HIP > protocol but rather encrypted to avoid middlebox tampering. From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:12:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC3D3A0CE9; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:11:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org, hip-chairs@ietf.org, hipsec@ietf.org, Gonzalo Camarillo , gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <158273711588.22544.290698498351853887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:11:55 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draf?= =?utf-8?q?t-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:11:56 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-30: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my discuss points and most of my other comments. I believe the following comments from my previous ballot are still valid: I agree with other ADs that it is not clear to me why this mechanism is needed in addition RFC5770. This is a use case for ICE and I would think that re-using existing code and library would make implementation easier, faster and less error-prone. I especially agree to the comments from Adam! Other comments: 4) sec 4.8: "When a host does not receive acknowledgments, e.g., to an UPDATE or CLOSE packet after a timeout based on local policies, a host SHOULD resend the packet through the associated Data Relay Server of the peer (if the peer listed it in its LOCATOR_SET parameter in the base exchange." I did not really find anything about this in section 5.10 of RFC5770. In think the timeout needs to be further specified. From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:18:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7453A0D27; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:18:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org, hip-chairs@ietf.org, hipsec@ietf.org, Gonzalo Camarillo , gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <158273750631.22434.4131000248395502391.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:18:26 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Hipsec] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draf?= =?utf-8?q?t-ietf-hip-dex-13=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:18:28 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-hip-dex-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I only re-reviewed the changes, however, I don't see any transport issues there. From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:23:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DFB3A0D7A; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:23:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id waSJu9VheCLW; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 693223A0D79; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee7239a0050446727618d4332.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e723:9a00:5044:6727:618d:4332]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1j70PE-0001ux-3A; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:23:32 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:23:31 +0100 Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , "spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" , "hipsec@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B29268D-B0FC-4CBD-9933-195A4020951D@kuehlewind.net> References: <152591513689.10311.5138557900418735242.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Miika Komu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1582737815;aa7d8aa8; X-HE-SMSGID: 1j70PE-0001ux-3A Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:23:38 -0000 Hi Miika, Maybe you already go a reply from Spencer anyway, however, he is not = serving in the AD position anymore, so he might not reply. Thanks for replying to his comments anyway. I think a way to encrypt = candidate address was what Spencer was looking for. So I think his = comment is addressed as well. I also just enter my ballot with =E2=80=9CNo objection=E2=80=9D and I = think Magnus Westerlund, Spencer=E2=80=99s successor, will also enter a = ballot position in the next week. Mirja > On 19. Feb 2020, at 21:52, Miika Komu = wrote: >=20 > Hi Spencer, >=20 > thanks for your comments, please see my response below. >=20 > ke, 2018-05-09 kello 18:18 -0700, Spencer Dawkins kirjoitti: >> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: No Objection >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut >> this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> COMMENT: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>=20 >> I'm balloting No Objection, but I'm watching the discussion in Eric's >> ballot >> thread about reusing pieces of ICE, and I look forward to some >> discussion about >> the provisions being made for middleboxes in this draft - I'm not >> denying that >> such things exist, only that it would be best if we understood why >> middleboxes >> are needed for this usage. >=20 > I am not sure exactly what you mean by middlebox provisioning, but at > least a couple of things have been clarified in the draft related to > middleboxes: >=20 > * STUN may be used for discovering address candidates; HIP Control > Servers are recommended=20 > * The address candidates are encrypted to protect against middlebox > tampering=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:27:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337303A0DA7; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6X_Ylt-6cA_o; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64FE43A0DB5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee7239a0050446727618d4332.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e723:9a00:5044:6727:618d:4332]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1j70TJ-0005Cg-Im; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:27:45 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <1d27170060587d173d26e66e11896f7ee2d643e3.camel@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:27:44 +0100 Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , "hipsec@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <152594644511.10319.6725951114596483825.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1d27170060587d173d26e66e11896f7ee2d643e3.camel@ericsson.com> To: Miika Komu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1582738068;7c9078d3; X-HE-SMSGID: 1j70TJ-0005Cg-Im Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-hip-native-nat-traversal-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:27:50 -0000 Hi Miika, Thanks for addressing my discuss points and comments. I just enter =E2=80=9C= No Objection=E2=80=9D as my new ballot position. Reading point 4 below: Yes I was referencing the wrong section. However, = I still think it would be good to provide more guidance about who long a = timeout should be. Mirja > On 19. Feb 2020, at 19:39, Miika Komu = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > thanks for your comments! My response is below, let me know if you = have > further concerns. >=20 > to, 2018-05-10 kello 03:00 -0700, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind kirjoitti: >> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: Discuss >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut >> this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> DISCUSS: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>=20 >> 1) This document should also update the IANA port registry to add a >> reference >> to this RFC-to-be to the existing entry for port 10500 (eventually >> even with >> note that this RFC-to-be discusses how to distinguish the services >> using >> NAT_TRAVERSAL_MODE). >=20 > IANA section should describe this: >=20 > This document reuses the same default UDP port number 10500 as > specified by Legacy ICE-HIP [RFC5770] for tunneling both HIP control > plane and data plane traffic. The selection between Legacy ICE-HIP > and Native ICE-HIP mode is negotiated using NAT_TRAVERSAL_MODE > parameter during the base exchange. >=20 > Let me know if something needs to be added. >=20 >> 2) Sec 4.4: "Hosts SHOULD NOT use values smaller than 5 ms for the >> minimum >> Ta,..." In rfc5245bis this is a MUST. Why is this a SHOULD here? >=20 > Because it used to be like that in an earlier version of ICE. Good > catch, I have now changed SHOULD to MUST now. >=20 >> Also in sec 4.6.2.: >> "If neither one of the hosts announced a minimum pacing value, a >> value of 50 ms >> SHOULD be used." This must be a MUST to be inline with sec 4.4. >=20 > thanks, both are now "MUST"s. >=20 >> 3) Appendix A: "Ta value so that only two connectivity check messages >> are sent >> on every RTT." Why two? RFC8085 recommends (SHOULD) at may one packet >> per RTT >> for non-congestion control transmissions >=20 > aligned with RFC8085 as you requested: >=20 > In this case, it is recommended that the hosts > estimate the round-trip time (RTT) between them and SHOULD set the > minimum Ta value so that at most a single connectivity check message > is sent on every RTT. >=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> COMMENT: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >>=20 >> I agree with other ADs that it is not clear to me why this mechanism >> is needed >> in addition RFC5770. This is a use case for ICE and I would think >> that re-using >> existing code and library would make implementation easier, fast and >> less-error-prone. I especially agree to the comments from Adam! >=20 > ICE was not designed with IPsec in mind, so the performance overhead = is > unacceptable. I have also some additional reasoning for Adam Roach > here: >=20 >=20 > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hipsec/Lx3SLQVaHI2ZKsMP8xxT27RMEn8 >=20 > and here: >=20 >=20 > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hipsec/tJ4evwlPEWOEHsRXLjFVlQS-ykE >=20 >> Other comments/nits: >>=20 >> 1) sec 4.6.2: "Upon successful nomination an address pair, a host MAY >> immediately stop sending such retransmissions." Not sure I understand >> this >> sentence; why MAY? >=20 > It should read "nomination *of* an address". I changed the MAY to > SHOULD: >=20 > Upon successful nomination of an > address pair, a host MUST immediately stop sending such > retransmissions. >=20 >> 2) sec 4.1: The registration to the Control Relay Server can be >> achieved using >> RELAY_UDP_ESP parameter as explained later in this section." >> I guess that should be RELAY_UDP_HIP? >=20 > good catch, corrected this. >=20 >> 3) sec 4.1: "It is RECOMMENDED that the Relay Client select a random >> port >> number..." Please say source port -> s/random port number/random >> source port >> number/ >=20 > done! >=20 >> 4) sec 4.8: "When a host does not receive >> acknowledgments, e.g., to an UPDATE or CLOSE packet after a >> timeout >> based on local policies, a host SHOULD resend the packet through >> the >> associated Data Relay Server of the peer (if the peer listed it in >> its LOCATOR_SET parameter in the base exchange." >> I did not really find anything about this in section 5.10 of RFC5770. >> In think >> the timeout needs to be further specified. >=20 > section 4.8 is "Sending Control Packets after the Base Exchange". Do > you mean section 4.10 in RFC57700: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5770#section-4.10 >=20 > ...which is also suggests "timeout based on local policies". >=20 >> 5) sec 5.3: "It is worth noting that sending of such a HIP NOTIFY >> message MAY be omitted if the host is actively (or passively) >> sending >> some other traffic (HIP or ESP) " >> This should really be a SHOULD (at least). >=20 > agreed, changed to SHOULD. >=20 >> 6) Appendix A: "One way to estimate the RTT is to use the time that >> it takes >> for the Control Relay Server registration exchange to complete;" That >> does >> estimate the RTT between the endhost... I not aware of a good way to >> estimate >> that, so I'm actually not convinced that the recommendation in >> appendix A is >> that useful at all. >=20 > I reflected your concerns by adding a disclaimer: >=20 > In general, estimating RTT can be difficult and error prone; further > experimentation is required for reliable RTT estimation. >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 26 10:20:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA283A10A0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:20:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lBDdODGJhdOJ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A70903A1067; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id q8so115198ljj.11; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:20:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=I/7Q1DtAEVn/8odtv0FS+cZDOlcOVNX81/XF0S05cmY=; b=uRwP30f1rdp79p+XFdfAdlyY5dzXUaoOJNrDF6lvDbTcNhz5Njb3NEmtvHEewOFSZk 9D20EZ4oj1SyOVRNbwZpR7Nw2d/BtG4BJTGTnW/+Wn0PBBLCXtu/zbi+G7d2dsJgdMaN FW5G7OEdIoqArxOF6R4RBXvFru3EeLK+9AkIBKKQLHv2C5bKyaxbwnKbuvl2lGtzqhs6 O/KmMk7p7yR+pSxdMC39gj5Dk1sjmZhvllThrOldlF4gve/v6U2zu3GYF+xIex46XuQQ cxSKmoQKPVzs5K+QY1G8y/S7Fs/tk+WVyuGp+uMS99RI1rC/ebsG8sBfgfa04+1vW/RP UdoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=I/7Q1DtAEVn/8odtv0FS+cZDOlcOVNX81/XF0S05cmY=; b=NVGGCgkWjZhYrEGRw0oNBt9N9vZigw+ptgwrWVQ9oQWSUb2wtlrTFwt129YGzBo/rL 3Ge+evNJp4e3ds3Ols7cPfIJhqtv1PIQO0ICG1zl/Vk8oYw9ER3vKj8Oh38ZZm70PTla V57YVmQgh9wrz1sbAtCCVHW2/xuXrPo9p34HwPoTDSeONvi7fGKehqjrBjgSd93rdsr+ K8Dok4CQhdDlhO2E5YVOrA3JwsBaMW2VaVQOOno2OUAiyUWdhqJh5AlmmcU3CX8HbGSc mkfKK79g9vx0tZrE79xTZKE0d8EclXydhRglmQas88e/5TbN9j1OAQ7tKiMFsaY1hyXy 13qw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1blPelMR62iRKMXnTEQOJ7q6YdwHxitsZbls/Uv3fZa1a/E/Oj oebAsfG9AmTnPIqUuQ+fLOYnGjJ6GSk8O9EunnQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vua37ygE4jESBhlluQHALfHe/7MgjG+wRoQ0nX3HYMJrLs+cKTJUfhjnnkPYWAqqx1YlL4RgIXnyLE2Z4R5fvs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9c85:: with SMTP id x5mr173608lji.50.1582741243824; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:20:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152591513689.10311.5138557900418735242.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2B29268D-B0FC-4CBD-9933-195A4020951D@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <2B29268D-B0FC-4CBD-9933-195A4020951D@kuehlewind.net> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:20:16 -0600 Message-ID: To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Miika Komu , "iesg@ietf.org" , "hipsec@ietf.org" , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c0f66059f7ea900" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:20:49 -0000 --0000000000009c0f66059f7ea900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mirja, and Magnus, On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:23 AM Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi Miika, > > Maybe you already go a reply from Spencer anyway, however, he is not > serving in the AD position anymore, so he might not reply. > Right, and for extra credit, now that a new ballot has been issued, I'm not seeing the ballot threads from any of the ADs, so didn't want to cause confusion and further delay this document. > Thanks for replying to his comments anyway. I think a way to encrypt > candidate address was what Spencer was looking for. So I think his commen= t > is addressed as well. > I now apologize for using the word "provision" in my ballot - I wasn't talking about "provisioning" in the configuration sense, but about "making accommodations because middleboxes exist". > I also just enter my ballot with =E2=80=9CNo objection=E2=80=9D and I thi= nk Magnus > Westerlund, Spencer=E2=80=99s successor, will also enter a ballot positio= n in the > next week. > I see that Adam has asked the question about why XOR is not required, which is close enough to my question that I should DEFINITELY continue to defer to the current ADs! Make good choices. Best to you all, and thanks for finishing this up. Spencer > > Mirja > > > > > On 19. Feb 2020, at 21:52, Miika Komu 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Spencer, > > > > thanks for your comments, please see my response below. > > > > ke, 2018-05-09 kello 18:18 -0700, Spencer Dawkins kirjoitti: > >> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > >> draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: No Objection > >> > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > >> this > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > >> > >> > >> Please refer to > >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >> > >> > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/ > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> --- > >> COMMENT: > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> --- > >> > >> I'm balloting No Objection, but I'm watching the discussion in Eric's > >> ballot > >> thread about reusing pieces of ICE, and I look forward to some > >> discussion about > >> the provisions being made for middleboxes in this draft - I'm not > >> denying that > >> such things exist, only that it would be best if we understood why > >> middleboxes > >> are needed for this usage. > > > > I am not sure exactly what you mean by middlebox provisioning, but at > > least a couple of things have been clarified in the draft related to > > middleboxes: > > > > * STUN may be used for discovering address candidates; HIP Control > > Servers are recommended > > * The address candidates are encrypted to protect against middlebox > > tampering > > > > --0000000000009c0f66059f7ea900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Mirja, and Magnus,=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 2= 6, 2020 at 11:23 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
Hi Miika,

Maybe you already go a reply from Spencer anyway, however, he is not servin= g in the AD position anymore, so he might not reply.
<= br>
Right, and for extra credit, now that a new ballot has been i= ssued, I'm not seeing the ballot threads from any of the ADs, so didn&#= 39;t want to cause confusion and further delay this document.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thanks for= replying to his comments anyway. I think a way to encrypt candidate addres= s was what Spencer was looking for. So I think his comment is addressed as = well.

I now apologize for using the wor= d "provision" in my ballot - I wasn't talking about "pro= visioning" in the configuration sense, but about "making accommod= ations because middleboxes exist".=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I also just enter my ballot with= =E2=80=9CNo objection=E2=80=9D and I think Magnus Westerlund, Spencer=E2= =80=99s successor, will also enter a ballot position in the next week.
<= /blockquote>

I see that Adam has asked the question abou= t why XOR is not required, which is close enough to my question that I shou= ld DEFINITELY continue to defer to the current ADs!

Make good choices.=C2=A0

Best to you all, and th= anks for finishing this up.

Spencer
=C2= =A0

Mirja



> On 19. Feb 2020, at 21:52, Miika Komu <miika.komu=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ie= tf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Spencer,
>
> thanks for your comments, please see my response below.
>
> ke, 2018-05-09 kello 18:18 -0700, Spencer Dawkins kirjoitti:
>> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=
>> this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to
>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statemen= t/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here= :
>> https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal/
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -
>> ---
>> COMMENT:
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -
>> ---
>>
>> I'm balloting No Objection, but I'm watching the discussio= n in Eric's
>> ballot
>> thread about reusing pieces of ICE, and I look forward to some
>> discussion about
>> the provisions being made for middleboxes in this draft - I'm = not
>> denying that
>> such things exist, only that it would be best if we understood why=
>> middleboxes
>> are needed for this usage.
>
> I am not sure exactly what you mean by middlebox provisioning, but at<= br> > least a couple of things have been clarified in the draft related to > middleboxes:
>
> * STUN may be used for discovering address candidates; HIP Control
> Servers are recommended
> * The address candidates are encrypted to protect against middlebox > tampering
>

--0000000000009c0f66059f7ea900-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 03:48:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hipsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDAF3A09FB; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:48:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sazA08g51azA; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FCD63A09F9; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix, from userid 1736) id 6A6884E11B68; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:48:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:48:21 +0000 From: Derek Fawcus To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , "hipsec@ietf.org" , Gonzalo Camarillo , "iesg@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal@ietf.org" , Miika Komu , "hip-chairs@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200227114821.GB64102@clarinet.employees.org> References: <152591513689.10311.5138557900418735242.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2B29268D-B0FC-4CBD-9933-195A4020951D@kuehlewind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal-28: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: hipsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:48:24 -0000 On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:20:16PM -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > I see that Adam has asked the question about why XOR is not required, which > is close enough to my question that I should DEFINITELY continue to defer > to the current ADs! I believe that was already answered somewhere in the thread of messages. XOR is not used as it is superfluous, since the messages in question are encrypted. Hence middleboxes still can't see the addresses. DF