
From nobody Fri Jan 15 09:21:33 2021
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Subject: [Hipsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-dex-23.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF.

        Title           : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)
        Authors         : Robert Moskowitz
                          Rene Hummen
                          Miika Komu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-hip-dex-23.txt
	Pages           : 64
	Date            : 2021-01-15

Abstract:
   This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
   DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) and
   specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
   protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
   cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
   cryptographic hash functions.

   The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
   constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected to
   be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
   Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
   protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
   Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
   prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
   keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
   IEEE 802.15.4 networks.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-23.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Fri Jan 15 10:32:51 2021
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-dex-23.txt
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I added some more performance information thanks to some digging by 
Miika and Mohit.

Also some more on FOLD thanks to work by Adam Wiethuechter.

Please take a look.  I am in one conversation about DEX.  Don't know 
where it is going to go, but you never know...

On 1/15/21 12:21 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)
>          Authors         : Robert Moskowitz
>                            Rene Hummen
>                            Miika Komu
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-hip-dex-23.txt
> 	Pages           : 64
> 	Date            : 2021-01-15
>
> Abstract:
>     This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
>     DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) and
>     specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
>     protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
>     cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
>     cryptographic hash functions.
>
>     The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
>     constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected to
>     be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
>     Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
>     protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
>     Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
>     prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
>     keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
>     IEEE 802.15.4 networks.
>
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/
>
> There is also an HTML version available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-23.html
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hipsec mailing list
> Hipsec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec


From nobody Tue Jan 19 12:24:36 2021
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From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
CC: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Gonzalo Camarillo" <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
Thread-Index: AQHW6NTHTbdGMBvqzUu6+PzV6Jo22w==
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:19:23 +0000
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--_000_68AF03688CB84DF3A33E0AA28E61B5F5ciscocom_--


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To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
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I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff. I am 
now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers 
for DRIP work.

I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating them 
in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.

I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no 
duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.

I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:

For an Initiator, BEX is:

2 PK sig varifications.
1 PK sig generation.
1 DH keypair generation.
1 DH secret derivation.

DEX is:

1 DH secret derivation.

I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH keypair 
generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big. But I think 
that part belongs in an Appendix.

So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.






On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors 
> and WG.
>
> With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should 
> have been addressed.
>
> As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one about 
> why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable 
> time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set 
> of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than other 
> parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need 
> to dispense with FS.”
>
> While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the 
> responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. I 
> know that a -23 is in the work for weeks => let’s publish it in the 
> coming days.
>
> Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status to 
> experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy. The 
> latter does not have my preference obviously.
>
> Regards
>
> -éric
>
> *From: *Hipsec <hipsec-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Eric Vyncke 
> (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
> *To: *"hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, 
> "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Robert 
> Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> *Cc: *Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, 
> Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, 
> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk 
> <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Subject: *[Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending 
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
> Dear HIP, dear authors,
>
> This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 
> years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took 
> over this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went 
> again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still DISCUSS 
> points to be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...
>
> Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very fast.
>
> Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis 
> waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking 
> the HIP-NAT document [2].
>
> After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the 
> following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS 
> points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13^th of January 
> 2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal 
> of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in 
> the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will 
> allow the immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>
> The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status of 
> the document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may 
> reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>
> Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>
> Regards
>
> -éric
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/ 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/>
>
> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386 
> <https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386>
>
> [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the 
> datatracker
>

-- 
Standard Robert Moskowitz
Owner
HTT Consulting
C:248-219-2059
F:248-968-2824
E:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com

There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who 
gets the credit

--------------6B155D0C911F05C831FC9912
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    I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff. 
    I am now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple
    pointers for DRIP work.<br>
    <br>
    I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating
    them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.<br>
    <br>
    I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no
    duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.<br>
    <br>
    I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:<br>
    <br>
    For an Initiator, BEX is:<br>
    <br>
    2 PK sig varifications.<br>
    1 PK sig generation.<br>
    1 DH keypair generation.<br>
    1 DH secret derivation.<br>
    <br>
    DEX is:<br>
    <br>
    1 DH secret derivation.<br>
    <br>
    I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH
    keypair generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big. 
    But I think that part belongs in an Appendix.<br>
    <br>
    So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke
      (evyncke) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:68AF0368-8CB8-4DF3-A33E-0AA28E61B5F5@cisco.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
        medium)">
      <style>@font-face
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Two months after the
            email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors and WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">With the -22, a lot of
            (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should have been
            addressed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">As far as I can tell,
            the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one about why forfeiting
            FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In
            an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set
            of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than
            other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
            question the need to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">While 2 months ago I put
            a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the responsible AD) am
            flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. I know that
            a -23 is in the work for weeks =&gt; let’s publish it in the
            coming days.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Else, next week we will
            need to either change the intended status to experimental or
            declare the document dead by lack of energy. The latter does
            not have my preference obviously.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">-éric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
              </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Hipsec
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;hipsec-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf of "Eric Vyncke
              (evyncke)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org">&lt;evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32<br>
              <b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">"draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Robert Moskowitz
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a>, Miika Komu
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Cc: </b>Roman Danyliw <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>, Gonzalo Camarillo
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>, Erik Kline
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>[Hipsec] Need to close all
              draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Dear HIP, dear authors,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">This document was requested for publication [1]
            in February 2018 (2.5 years ago), then its IESG evaluation
            has been deferred, then I took over this document from Terry
            Manderson in March 2019, then it went again through IESG
            evaluation in July 2020 and there are still DISCUSS points
            to be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Difficult not to observe that this document
            does not progress very fast.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Moreover, this document is a normative
            reference for rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC editor queue
            since March 2019... So, also blocking the HIP-NAT document
            [2].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in
            cc, we have taken the following decision: if a revised I-D
            addressing remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones is not
            uploaded within 2 months (13<sup>th</sup> of January 2021),
            then I will request the HIP WG to accept the complete
            removal of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page
            about HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the reference to the
            HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow the immediate
            publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">The HIP DEX authors may also select to change
            the intended status of the document to ‘experimental’ (if
            the HIP WG agrees) as this may reduce the security
            requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised
            HIP-DEX shortly,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">-éric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">[1] <a
              href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">[2] <a
              href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">[3] and possibly I will set the state of
            HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the datatracker</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="content-type">
      <title>Standard</title>
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">Robert Moskowitz</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">
        Owner</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">
        HTT Consulting</span><br>
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">C:</span><x-tab
        style="font-family: Arial;">      </x-tab><span
        style="font-family: Arial;">248-219-2059</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">
        F:</span><x-tab style="font-family: Arial;">      </x-tab><span
        style="font-family: Arial;">248-968-2824</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">
        E:</span><x-tab style="font-family: Arial;">      </x-tab><span
        style="font-family: Arial;"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a></span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">
        There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't
        matter who gets the credit</span><br>
    </div>
  </body>
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From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
CC: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Gonzalo Camarillo" <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
Thread-Topic: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
Thread-Index: AQHW6ocQR6j818zXLUeYvsVAsj8W+6otg5gA
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 14:12:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
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--_000_41AFBFEA7119451BBC5446CBB41274CAciscocom_--


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To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
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On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> Standard
>
> TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)and I understand 
> that you are quite busy.
>
> Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23: 
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
> <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21> 
> (i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)
>
> After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a couple 
> of points to be addressed(with some comments of mine as EVY>):
>
>   * Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should these
>     two different derivations be used? "
>       o EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is
>         said which one to use in which case.
>

        IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
                  or
                  IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material

        IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
        IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
                      ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
                      the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))

Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the 
Pair-wise Key SA.

>   * Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
>     non-blocking) about "further implementation experience provides
>     better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>       o EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>

The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG 
Considerations

Perhaps I should delete it from there.

>      o
>
>
>   * Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>       o EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>

I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for tests, 
but this is a lot of code to put into the document.  Right now it is 
privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find some permanent 
home for it.

>      o
>
>
>   * Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>       o EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>

Sec 7.1 is referenced.

>      o
>
>
>   * Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs. BEX"
>       o EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be repeated
>         in the security section
>

I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):

9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX

    Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
    compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one of
    the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
    Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
    endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.


Will this work?

>      o
>
>
>   * Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
>     inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>

See sec 9.1

>  *
>
>
>   * Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session keys"
>

9.  Security Considerations

....

    *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key SAs
       is based on the quality of the random keying material generated by
       the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a sensor
       or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
       quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a CSPRNG
       SHOULD be used.


>  *
>
>
>
>   * Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>       o EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern
>

Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the 
concern.  I did not need to go further.

>      o
>
>
>   * Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it
>     in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R.
>     wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are
>     slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact
>     calls into question the need to dispense with FS.”
>       o EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a
>         paywall EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive
>         motivation for an IETF standards w/o FS.
>

Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this.  It may 
be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the wrong URL.

Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all else:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1

So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried it 
on another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...



>      o
>
>
>
>
> ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even 
> if big progress has been made)
>
> As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered for too 
> long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
>
> *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the 
> above (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’ – as there are 
> no deployed implementations – could probably fix all of them) before 
> Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to 
> agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the architecture document. ***
>

Does the above address the open items?

> All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, 
> some deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see 
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
> <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21> 
> ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a real 
> problem.
>
> -éric
>
> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
> Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>
> To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" 
> <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" 
> <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" 
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, 
> Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, 
> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk 
> <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending 
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
> I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.  I 
> am now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple 
> pointers for DRIP work.
>
> I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating 
> them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.
>
> I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no 
> duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>
> I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>
> For an Initiator, BEX is:
>
> 2 PK sig varifications.
>
> 1 PK sig generation.
>
> 1 DH keypair generation.
>
> 1 DH secret derivation.
>
> DEX is:
>
> 1 DH secret derivation.
>
> I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH keypair 
> generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big.  But I think 
> that part belongs in an Appendix.
>
> So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>
> On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors 
> and WG.
>
> With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should 
> have been addressed.
>
> As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one about 
> why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable 
> time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set 
> of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than other 
> parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need 
> to dispense with FS.”
>
> While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the 
> responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. I 
> know that a -23 is in the work for weeks => let’s publish it in the 
> coming days.
>
> Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status to 
> experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy. The 
> latter does not have my preference obviously.
>
> Regards
>
> -éric
>
> From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of "Eric Vyncke 
> (evyncke)" mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>
> Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>
> To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org mailto:hipsec@ietf.org, 
> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org, 
> Robert Moskowitz mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com, Miika Komu 
> mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com
>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org, Eric Rescorla 
> mailto:ekr@rtfm.com, Gonzalo Camarillo 
> mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com, mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com 
> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com, Benjamin Kaduk mailto:kaduk@mit.edu, 
> Erik Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com
>
> Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending 
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
> Dear HIP, dear authors,
>
> This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 
> years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took 
> over this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went 
> again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still DISCUSS 
> points to be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...
>
> Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very fast.
>
> Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis 
> waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking 
> the HIP-NAT document [2].
>
> After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the 
> following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS 
> points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January 
> 2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal 
> of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in 
> the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will 
> allow the immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>
> The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status of 
> the document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may 
> reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>
> Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>
> Regards
>
> -éric
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>
> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386
>
> [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the 
> datatracker
>
> -- 
>
> Robert Moskowitz
>
> Owner
>
> HTT Consulting
>
> C:      248-219-2059
>
> F:      248-968-2824
>
> E:      mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com
>
> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who 
> gets the credit
>


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    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke
      (evyncke) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">TD ;LR : more work to
            be done, deadline this Thursday 21st<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Bob, <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">T</span>hank you for
          the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)<span lang="EN-US"> and I
            understand that you are quite busy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Here is the link to the diff between -21
          and -23: <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
            moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
          <span lang="EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG
            evaluation and the latest one)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">After the July 2020 IESG evaluation <span
            lang="EN-US">based
          </span>on -<span lang="EN-US">21</span>, there were a couple
          of points to be addressed<span lang="EN-US"> (with some
            comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">Roman:
            “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should these
            two different derivations be used?
            <span lang="EN-US">" <o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both
                defined but nothing is said which one to use in which
                case.</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
           IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material<br>
                     or<br>
                     IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material<br>
    <br>
           IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE<br>
           IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the<br>
                         ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as<br>
                         the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))<br>
    <br>
    Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the
    Pair-wise Key SA.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request
              for reply and non-blocking) about "</span><span
              lang="EN-US">
            </span><span lang="EN-US">further implementation experience
              provides better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; this really pleads for experimental
                status</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG
    Considerations<br>
    <br>
    Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
          </ul>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Benjamin on FOLD collisions
              <o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; IMHO addressed in the new section
                3.2.1</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for
    tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document.  Right
    now it is privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find
    some permanent home for it.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
          </ul>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in
              section 3.2.1<o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; still light on the ACL but the
                above should clear it</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
          </ul>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Benjamin "how is it known that the peer
              should be using DEX vs. BEX"<o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; partially addressed in section 1.2
                but should be repeated in the security section</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
    <br>
    9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
    <br>
       Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX<br>
       compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one
    of<br>
       the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in<br>
       Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both<br>
       endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Will this work?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
          </ul>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Benjamin lack of discussion on the security
              consequences of inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR</span></li>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    See sec 9.1<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
          </li>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to
              obtain secure session keys"</span></li>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    9.  Security Considerations<br>
    <br>
    ....<br>
    <br>
       *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key
    SAs<br>
          is based on the quality of the random keying material
    generated by<br>
          the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a
    sensor<br>
          or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the<br>
          quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a
    CSPRNG<br>
          SHOULD be used.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
          </li>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC"
              about KEYMAT algorithm<o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; new reference to NIST papers seems
                to address this concern</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the
    concern.  I did not need to go further.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
          </ul>
          <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">Ekr’s
            one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it
            in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric
            R. wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves)
            which are slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are
            w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need to dispense
            with FS.”<o:p></o:p></li>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; the additional section 1.2.1 and
                the reference to a paywall EfficientECC reference do not
                offer a conclusive motivation for an IETF standards w/o
                FS.</span></li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this.  It
    may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the
    wrong URL.<br>
    <br>
    Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all
    else:<br>
    <br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1</a><br>
    <br>
    So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried
    it on another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><o:p></o:p><br>
            </li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">***Bottom line, the
            document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even if big
            progress has been made)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">As written in
            November (see below), the situation has lingered for too
            long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">*** Therefore, I
            request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the above
            (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’ – as there
            are no deployed implementations – could probably fix all of
            them) before Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I
            will ask the HIPSEC WG to agree removing the HIP-DEX section
            from the architecture document. ***</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Does the above address the open items?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">All in all, there
            have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, some
            deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see
            <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
            ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be
            a real problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">-éric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">From: Robert Moskowitz
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">To: Eric Vyncke
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:evyncke@cisco.com">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)"
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org">&lt;evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">"draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Miika Komu
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Cc: Roman Danyliw <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>,
          Eric Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>, Gonzalo Camarillo
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
          Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>, Erik Kline
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all
          draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">I had hoped to get -23 out end of last
          week, and missed my cutoff.  I am now in IACR's Real World
          Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers for DRIP work.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">I was waiting for two analyzes that I
          got Jan 4, and incorporating them in.  I believe these SHOULD
          address much of EKR's questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs
          to HITs generated with no duplicates that I add in an Appendix
          along with the Python code.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into
          1.2, probably 1.2.1:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">For an Initiator, BEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">2 PK sig varifications.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">1 PK sig generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH keypair generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH secret derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">DEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH secret derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">I have cycles for these and a paper to
          reference, except ECDH keypair generation, on an 8 bit process
          and the numbers are big.  But I think that part belongs in an
          Appendix.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">So unlikely Friday.  But early the
          following week.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke
          (evyncke) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Two months after the email below, I
          sending a kind reminder to authors and WG.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC
          ADs’ DISCUSS points should have been addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">As far as I can tell, the other
          remaining issue was Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when
          some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an email
          to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set of
          parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than
          other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
          question the need to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">While 2 months ago I put a deadline for
          tomorrow, I (as the responsible AD) am flexible of course but
          we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23 is in the work for
          weeks =&gt; let’s publish it in the coming days.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Else, next week we will need to either
          change the intended status to experimental or declare the
          document dead by lack of energy. The latter does not have my
          preference obviously.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">From: Hipsec
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of "Eric Vyncke
          (evyncke)" <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org">mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>, Robert Moskowitz
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>, Miika Komu
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com">mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Cc: Roman Danyliw <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org">mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>,
          Eric Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">mailto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>, Gonzalo Camarillo
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>,
          Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>, Erik Kline
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all
          draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Dear HIP, dear authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">This document was requested for
          publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 years ago), then its
          IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took over this
          document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went
          again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still
          DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple of revised
          I-D...<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Difficult not to observe that this
          document does not progress very fast.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Moreover, this document is a normative
          reference for rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC editor queue
          since March 2019... So, also blocking the HIP-NAT document
          [2].<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">After discussion with the HIP chair,
          Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the following decision: if a
          revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones
          is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January 2021), then I
          will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal of
          section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about
          HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX
          document [3]. This will allow the immediate publication of the
          rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">The HIP DEX authors may also select to
          change the intended status of the document to ‘experimental’
          (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may reduce the security
          requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a
          revised HIP-DEX shortly,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">[1]
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">[2]
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386">https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">[3] and possibly I will set the state of
          HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the datatracker<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Robert Moskowitz<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Owner<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">HTT Consulting<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">C:      248-219-2059<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">F:      248-968-2824<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">E:      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">There's no limit to what can be
          accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit<o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
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Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.  I responded with a different 
paper.  All else is still ok, but let me dig a big more on that paper 
for non-IACR members.

On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>
>
> On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>> Standard
>>
>> TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)and I understand 
>> that you are quite busy.
>>
>> Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23: 
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21> 
>> (i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)
>>
>> After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a couple 
>> of points to be addressed(with some comments of mine as EVY>):
>>
>>   * Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should
>>     these two different derivations be used? "
>>       o EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is
>>         said which one to use in which case.
>>
>
>        IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
>                  or
>                  IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material
>
>        IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
>        IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
>                      ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
>                      the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))
>
> Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the 
> Pair-wise Key SA.
>
>>   * Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
>>     non-blocking) about "further implementation experience provides
>>     better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>>       o EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>>
>
> The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG 
> Considerations
>
> Perhaps I should delete it from there.
>
>>      o
>>
>>
>>   * Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>>       o EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>>
>
> I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for tests, 
> but this is a lot of code to put into the document.  Right now it is 
> privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find some 
> permanent home for it.
>
>>      o
>>
>>
>>   * Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>>       o EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>>
>
> Sec 7.1 is referenced.
>
>>      o
>>
>>
>>   * Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs. BEX"
>>       o EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be
>>         repeated in the security section
>>
>
> I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):
>
> 9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX
>
>    Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
>    compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one of
>    the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
>    Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
>    endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.
>
>
> Will this work?
>
>>      o
>>
>>
>>   * Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
>>     inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>>
>
> See sec 9.1
>
>>  *
>>
>>
>>   * Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
>>     keys"
>>
>
> 9.  Security Considerations
>
> ....
>
>    *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key SAs
>       is based on the quality of the random keying material generated by
>       the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a sensor
>       or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
>       quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a CSPRNG
>       SHOULD be used.
>
>
>>  *
>>
>>
>>
>>   * Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>>       o EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern
>>
>
> Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the 
> concern.  I did not need to go further.
>
>>      o
>>
>>
>>   * Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it
>>     in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R.
>>     wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are
>>     slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact
>>     calls into question the need to dispense with FS.”
>>       o EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a
>>         paywall EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive
>>         motivation for an IETF standards w/o FS.
>>
>
> Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this. It may 
> be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the wrong URL.
>
> Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all else:
>
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1
>
> So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried 
> it on another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...
>
>
>
>>      o
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** 
>> (even if big progress has been made)
>>
>> As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered for 
>> too long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
>>
>> *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the 
>> above (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’ – as there 
>> are no deployed implementations – could probably fix all of them) 
>> before Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask the 
>> HIPSEC WG to agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the architecture 
>> document. ***
>>
>
> Does the above address the open items?
>
>> All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, 
>> some deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see 
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21> 
>> ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a real 
>> problem.
>>
>> -éric
>>
>> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>>
>> Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>>
>> To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" 
>> <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" 
>> <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" 
>> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>>
>> Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, 
>> Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, 
>> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk 
>> <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending 
>> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>>
>> I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.  I 
>> am now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple 
>> pointers for DRIP work.
>>
>> I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating 
>> them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.
>>
>> I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no 
>> duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>>
>> I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>>
>> For an Initiator, BEX is:
>>
>> 2 PK sig varifications.
>>
>> 1 PK sig generation.
>>
>> 1 DH keypair generation.
>>
>> 1 DH secret derivation.
>>
>> DEX is:
>>
>> 1 DH secret derivation.
>>
>> I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH keypair 
>> generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big.  But I think 
>> that part belongs in an Appendix.
>>
>> So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>>
>> On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>
>> Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to 
>> authors and WG.
>>
>> With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should 
>> have been addressed.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one about 
>> why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable 
>> time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set 
>> of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than other 
>> parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need 
>> to dispense with FS.”
>>
>> While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the 
>> responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. I 
>> know that a -23 is in the work for weeks => let’s publish it in the 
>> coming days.
>>
>> Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status to 
>> experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy. The 
>> latter does not have my preference obviously.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> -éric
>>
>> From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of "Eric Vyncke 
>> (evyncke)" mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>>
>> Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>>
>> To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org mailto:hipsec@ietf.org, 
>> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org 
>> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org, Robert Moskowitz 
>> mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com, Miika Komu 
>> mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com
>>
>> Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org, Eric Rescorla 
>> mailto:ekr@rtfm.com, Gonzalo Camarillo 
>> mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com, mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com 
>> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com, Benjamin Kaduk mailto:kaduk@mit.edu, 
>> Erik Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com
>>
>> Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending 
>> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>>
>> Dear HIP, dear authors,
>>
>> This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 
>> years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took 
>> over this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went 
>> again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still 
>> DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...
>>
>> Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very fast.
>>
>> Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis 
>> waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking 
>> the HIP-NAT document [2].
>>
>> After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the 
>> following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS 
>> points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January 
>> 2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal 
>> of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in 
>> the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will 
>> allow the immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>>
>> The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status of 
>> the document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may 
>> reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>>
>> Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> -éric
>>
>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>>
>> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386
>>
>> [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the 
>> datatracker
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Robert Moskowitz
>>
>> Owner
>>
>> HTT Consulting
>>
>> C:      248-219-2059
>>
>> F:      248-968-2824
>>
>> E: mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com
>>
>> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who 
>> gets the credit
>>
>


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    Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.  I responded with a
    different paper.  All else is still ok, but let me dig a big more on
    that paper for non-IACR members.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:5f52aa64-48aa-87d3-5225-1741ca87b89d@htt-consult.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke
        (evyncke) wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=UTF-8">
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        <div class="WordSection1">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">TD ;LR : more work
              to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Bob, <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">T</span>hank you
            for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)<span lang="EN-US">
              and I understand that you are quite busy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Here is the link to the diff between
            -21 and -23: <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
            <span lang="EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG
              evaluation and the latest one)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">After the July 2020 IESG evaluation <span
              lang="EN-US">based </span>on -<span lang="EN-US">21</span>,
            there were a couple of points to be addressed<span
              lang="EN-US"> (with some comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">Roman:
              “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should
              these two different derivations be used? <span
                lang="EN-US">" <o:p></o:p></span></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both
                  defined but nothing is said which one to use in which
                  case.</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
             IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material<br>
                       or<br>
                       IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material<br>
      <br>
             IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE<br>
             IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of
      the<br>
                           ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as<br>
                           the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))<br>
      <br>
      Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the
      Pair-wise Key SA.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as
                request for reply and non-blocking) about "</span><span
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US">further
                implementation experience provides better guidance" in
                sections 6 and 9.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; this really pleads for
                  experimental status</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG
      Considerations<br>
      <br>
      Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
            </ul>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Benjamin on FOLD collisions <o:p></o:p></span></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; IMHO addressed in the new section
                  3.2.1</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for
      tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document.  Right
      now it is privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find
      some permanent home for it.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
            </ul>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions
                in section 3.2.1<o:p></o:p></span></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; still light on the ACL but the
                  above should clear it</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
            </ul>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Benjamin "how is it known that the peer
                should be using DEX vs. BEX"<o:p></o:p></span></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; partially addressed in section
                  1.2 but should be repeated in the security section</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
      <br>
      9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
      <br>
         Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX<br>
         compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least
      one of<br>
         the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined
      in<br>
         Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both<br>
         endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Will this work?<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
            </ul>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Benjamin lack of discussion on the security
                consequences of inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR</span></li>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      See sec 9.1<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to
                obtain secure session keys"</span></li>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      9.  Security Considerations<br>
      <br>
      ....<br>
      <br>
         *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise
      Key SAs<br>
            is based on the quality of the random keying material
      generated by<br>
            the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a
      sensor<br>
            or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the<br>
            quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a
      CSPRNG<br>
            SHOULD be used.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
            </li>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                lang="EN-US">Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC"
                about KEYMAT algorithm<o:p></o:p></span></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; new reference to NIST papers
                  seems to address this concern</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the
      concern.  I did not need to go further.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
            </ul>
            <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">Ekr’s
              one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do
              it in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs,
              Eric R. wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST
              curves) which are slower w/o FS than other parameters
              (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need
              to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></li>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; the additional section 1.2.1 and
                  the reference to a paywall EfficientECC reference do
                  not offer a conclusive motivation for an IETF
                  standards w/o FS.</span></li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this. 
      It may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has
      the wrong URL.<br>
      <br>
      Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all
      else:<br>
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
        href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1"
        moz-do-not-send="true">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1</a><br>
      <br>
      So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I
      tried it on another machine that should not have my IACR cookies,
      but...<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><o:p></o:p><br>
              </li>
            </ul>
          </ul>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">***Bottom line, the
              document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even if big
              progress has been made)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">As written in
              November (see below), the situation has lingered for too
              long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis
              documents. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">*** Therefore, I
              request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the above
              (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’ – as
              there are no deployed implementations – could probably fix
              all of them) before Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC
              else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to agree removing the
              HIP-DEX section from the architecture document. ***</span></p>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Does the above address the open items?<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">All in all, there
              have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, some
              deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
              ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not
              be a real problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">-éric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">From: Robert Moskowitz <a
              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at
            16:08<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">To: Eric Vyncke <a
              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
            "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>,
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">"draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a> <a
              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
            Miika Komu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Cc: Roman Danyliw <a
              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric
            Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>,
            Gonzalo Camarillo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a> <a
              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
            Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>,
            Erik Kline <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
              href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close
            all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
            2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">I had hoped to get -23 out end of last
            week, and missed my cutoff.  I am now in IACR's Real World
            Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers for DRIP work.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">I was waiting for two analyzes that I
            got Jan 4, and incorporating them in.  I believe these
            SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs
            to HITs generated with no duplicates that I add in an
            Appendix along with the Python code.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into
            1.2, probably 1.2.1:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">For an Initiator, BEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">2 PK sig varifications.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">1 PK sig generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH keypair generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH secret derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">DEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH secret derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">I have cycles for these and a paper to
            reference, except ECDH keypair generation, on an 8 bit
            process and the numbers are big.  But I think that part
            belongs in an Appendix.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">So unlikely Friday.  But early the
            following week.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke
            (evyncke) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Two months after the email below, I
            sending a kind reminder to authors and WG.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">With the -22, a lot of (if not all )
            SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should have been addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">As far as I can tell, the other
            remaining issue was Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when
            some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an email
            to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set of
            parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than
            other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
            question the need to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">While 2 months ago I put a deadline
            for tomorrow, I (as the responsible AD) am flexible of
            course but we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23 is in
            the work for weeks =&gt; let’s publish it in the coming
            days.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Else, next week we will need to either
            change the intended status to experimental or declare the
            document dead by lack of energy. The latter does not have my
            preference obviously.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">From: Hipsec <a
              class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
            on behalf of "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a
              class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at
            15:32<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>,
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>,
            Robert Moskowitz <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>,
            Miika Komu <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Cc: Roman Danyliw <a
              class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>, Eric
            Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>,
            Gonzalo Camarillo <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a> <a
              class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>,
            Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>,
            Erik Kline <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all
            draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
            2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Dear HIP, dear authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">This document was requested for
            publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 years ago), then its
            IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took over this
            document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went
            again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are
            still DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple of
            revised I-D...<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Difficult not to observe that this
            document does not progress very fast.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Moreover, this document is a normative
            reference for rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC editor queue
            since March 2019... So, also blocking the HIP-NAT document
            [2].<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">After discussion with the HIP chair,
            Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the following decision: if a
            revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones
            is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January 2021), then
            I will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal of
            section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about
            HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX
            document [3]. This will allow the immediate publication of
            the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">The HIP DEX authors may also select to
            change the intended status of the document to ‘experimental’
            (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may reduce the security
            requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get
            a revised HIP-DEX shortly,<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/"
              moz-do-not-send="true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386"
              moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">[3] and possibly I will set the state
            of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the datatracker<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Robert Moskowitz<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Owner<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">HTT Consulting<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">C:      248-219-2059<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">F:      248-968-2824<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">E:      <a
              class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
              href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">There's no limit to what can be
            accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
References: <68AF0368-8CB8-4DF3-A33E-0AA28E61B5F5@cisco.com> <45191baf-ee46-89b8-fe84-742c5c17aadc@labs.htt-consult.com> <41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com> <5f52aa64-48aa-87d3-5225-1741ca87b89d@htt-consult.com> <769d84b8-0e9f-dc8d-ee3e-62e724a830fc@htt-consult.com>
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Ah, found the paper 'free' from:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers

pg 13 is the table I am using.  Please check that you can access this URL.

On 1/18/21 11:13 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.  I responded with a different 
> paper.  All else is still ok, but let me dig a big more on that paper 
> for non-IACR members.
>
> On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>> Standard
>>>
>>> TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>>>
>>> Bob,
>>>
>>> Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)and I understand 
>>> that you are quite busy.
>>>
>>> Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23: 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21> 
>>> (i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)
>>>
>>> After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a 
>>> couple of points to be addressed(with some comments of mine as EVY>):
>>>
>>>   * Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should
>>>     these two different derivations be used? "
>>>       o EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is
>>>         said which one to use in which case.
>>>
>>
>>        IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
>>                  or
>>                  IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material
>>
>>        IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
>>        IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
>>                      ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
>>                      the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))
>>
>> Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the 
>> Pair-wise Key SA.
>>
>>>   * Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
>>>     non-blocking) about "further implementation experience provides
>>>     better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>>>       o EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>>>
>>
>> The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG 
>> Considerations
>>
>> Perhaps I should delete it from there.
>>
>>>      o
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>>>       o EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>>>
>>
>> I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for tests, 
>> but this is a lot of code to put into the document. Right now it is 
>> privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find some 
>> permanent home for it.
>>
>>>      o
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>>>       o EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>>>
>>
>> Sec 7.1 is referenced.
>>
>>>      o
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs. BEX"
>>>       o EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be
>>>         repeated in the security section
>>>
>>
>> I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):
>>
>> 9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX
>>
>>    Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
>>    compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one of
>>    the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
>>    Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
>>    endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.
>>
>>
>> Will this work?
>>
>>>      o
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
>>>     inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>>>
>>
>> See sec 9.1
>>
>>>  *
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
>>>     keys"
>>>
>>
>> 9.  Security Considerations
>>
>> ....
>>
>>    *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key SAs
>>       is based on the quality of the random keying material generated by
>>       the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a sensor
>>       or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
>>       quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a CSPRNG
>>       SHOULD be used.
>>
>>
>>>  *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>>>       o EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern
>>>
>>
>> Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the 
>> concern.  I did not need to go further.
>>
>>>      o
>>>
>>>
>>>   * Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do
>>>     it in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R.
>>>     wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which
>>>     are slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This
>>>     fact calls into question the need to dispense with FS.”
>>>       o EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a
>>>         paywall EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive
>>>         motivation for an IETF standards w/o FS.
>>>
>>
>> Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this. It 
>> may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the 
>> wrong URL.
>>
>> Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all else:
>>
>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1
>>
>> So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried 
>> it on another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...
>>
>>
>>
>>>      o
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** 
>>> (even if big progress has been made)
>>>
>>> As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered for 
>>> too long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
>>>
>>> *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D addressing 
>>> the above (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’ – as 
>>> there are no deployed implementations – could probably fix all of 
>>> them) before Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask 
>>> the HIPSEC WG to agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the 
>>> architecture document. ***
>>>
>>
>> Does the above address the open items?
>>
>>> All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes 
>>> (I_NONCE, some deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21> 
>>> ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a real 
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> -éric
>>>
>>> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>>>
>>> Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>>>
>>> To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" 
>>> <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" 
>>> <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" 
>>> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>>>
>>> Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, 
>>> Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, 
>>> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk 
>>> <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
>>> pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>>>
>>> I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.  
>>> I am now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple 
>>> pointers for DRIP work.
>>>
>>> I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating 
>>> them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.
>>>
>>> I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no 
>>> duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>>>
>>> I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>>>
>>> For an Initiator, BEX is:
>>>
>>> 2 PK sig varifications.
>>>
>>> 1 PK sig generation.
>>>
>>> 1 DH keypair generation.
>>>
>>> 1 DH secret derivation.
>>>
>>> DEX is:
>>>
>>> 1 DH secret derivation.
>>>
>>> I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH 
>>> keypair generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big.  
>>> But I think that part belongs in an Appendix.
>>>
>>> So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>>>
>>> On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>>
>>> Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to 
>>> authors and WG.
>>>
>>> With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should 
>>> have been addressed.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one about 
>>> why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable 
>>> time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a 
>>> set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than 
>>> other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question 
>>> the need to dispense with FS.”
>>>
>>> While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the 
>>> responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. 
>>> I know that a -23 is in the work for weeks => let’s publish it in 
>>> the coming days.
>>>
>>> Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status to 
>>> experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy. The 
>>> latter does not have my preference obviously.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> -éric
>>>
>>> From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of "Eric 
>>> Vyncke (evyncke)" mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>>>
>>> Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>>>
>>> To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org mailto:hipsec@ietf.org, 
>>> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org 
>>> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org, Robert Moskowitz 
>>> mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com, Miika Komu 
>>> mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com
>>>
>>> Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org, Eric Rescorla 
>>> mailto:ekr@rtfm.com, Gonzalo Camarillo 
>>> mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com, mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com 
>>> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com, Benjamin Kaduk mailto:kaduk@mit.edu, 
>>> Erik Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com
>>>
>>> Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending 
>>> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>>>
>>> Dear HIP, dear authors,
>>>
>>> This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018 
>>> (2.5 years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I 
>>> took over this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it 
>>> went again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still 
>>> DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...
>>>
>>> Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very fast.
>>>
>>> Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis 
>>> waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also 
>>> blocking the HIP-NAT document [2].
>>>
>>> After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken 
>>> the following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining 
>>> DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of 
>>> January 2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the complete 
>>> removal of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about 
>>> HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX document 
>>> [3]. This will allow the immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis 
>>> and HIP-NAT documents.
>>>
>>> The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status of 
>>> the document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may 
>>> reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>>>
>>> Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> -éric
>>>
>>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>>>
>>> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386
>>>
>>> [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the 
>>> datatracker
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Robert Moskowitz
>>>
>>> Owner
>>>
>>> HTT Consulting
>>>
>>> C:      248-219-2059
>>>
>>> F:      248-968-2824
>>>
>>> E: mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com
>>>
>>> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter 
>>> who gets the credit
>>>
>>
>


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    Ah, found the paper 'free' from:<br>
    <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers</a><br>
    <br>
    pg 13 is the table I am using.  Please check that you can access
    this URL.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/21 11:13 AM, Robert Moskowitz
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:769d84b8-0e9f-dc8d-ee3e-62e724a830fc@htt-consult.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.  I responded with a
      different paper.  All else is still ok, but let me dig a big more
      on that paper for non-IACR members.<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:5f52aa64-48aa-87d3-5225-1741ca87b89d@htt-consult.com">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=UTF-8">
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke
          (evyncke) wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
            charset=UTF-8">
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          <div class="WordSection1">
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">TD ;LR : more
                work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Bob, <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">T</span>hank you
              for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)<span
                lang="EN-US"> and I understand that you are quite busy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Here is the link to the diff between
              -21 and -23: <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
              <span lang="EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG
                evaluation and the latest one)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">After the July 2020 IESG evaluation
              <span lang="EN-US">based </span>on -<span lang="EN-US">21</span>,
              there were a couple of points to be addressed<span
                lang="EN-US"> (with some comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:<o:p></o:p></p>
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">Roman:
                “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should
                these two different derivations be used? <span
                  lang="EN-US">" <o:p></o:p></span></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both
                    defined but nothing is said which one to use in
                    which case.</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
               IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material<br>
                         or<br>
                         IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material<br>
        <br>
               IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE<br>
               IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of
        the<br>
                             ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order
        as<br>
                             the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))<br>
        <br>
        Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for
        the Pair-wise Key SA.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as
                  request for reply and non-blocking) about "</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US">further
                  implementation experience provides better guidance" in
                  sections 6 and 9.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; this really pleads for
                    experimental status</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG
        Considerations<br>
        <br>
        Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Benjamin on FOLD collisions <o:p></o:p></span></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; IMHO addressed in the new
                    section 3.2.1</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for
        tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document. 
        Right now it is privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we
        can find some permanent home for it.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD
                  collisions in section 3.2.1<o:p></o:p></span></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; still light on the ACL but the
                    above should clear it</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Benjamin "how is it known that the peer
                  should be using DEX vs. BEX"<o:p></o:p></span></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; partially addressed in section
                    1.2 but should be repeated in the security section</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
        <br>
        9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
        <br>
           Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP
        DEX<br>
           compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least
        one of<br>
           the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device
        defined in<br>
           Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both<br>
           endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        Will this work?<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Benjamin lack of discussion on the
                  security consequences of inadvertent counter reuse in
                  AES-CTR</span></li>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        See sec 9.1<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order
                  to obtain secure session keys"</span></li>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        9.  Security Considerations<br>
        <br>
        ....<br>
        <br>
           *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise
        Key SAs<br>
              is based on the quality of the random keying material
        generated by<br>
              the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a
        sensor<br>
              or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about
        the<br>
              quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a
        CSPRNG<br>
              SHOULD be used.<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
              </li>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC"
                  about KEYMAT algorithm<o:p></o:p></span></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; new reference to NIST papers
                    seems to address this concern</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed
        the concern.  I did not need to go further.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">Ekr’s
                one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do
                it in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs,
                Eric R. wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST
                curves) which are slower w/o FS than other parameters
                (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the
                need to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></li>
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><span
                    lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; the additional section 1.2.1
                    and the reference to a paywall EfficientECC
                    reference do not offer a conclusive motivation for
                    an IETF standards w/o FS.</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this. 
        It may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has
        the wrong URL.<br>
        <br>
        Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all
        else:<br>
        <br>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
          href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1"
          moz-do-not-send="true">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1</a><br>
        <br>
        So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I
        tried it on another machine that should not have my IACR
        cookies, but...<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
              <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                <li class="MsoPlainText" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2"><o:p></o:p><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">***Bottom line,
                the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even
                if big progress has been made)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">As written in
                November (see below), the situation has lingered for too
                long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis
                documents. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">*** Therefore, I
                request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the
                above (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’
                – as there are no deployed implementations – could
                probably fix all of them) before Thursday 21st of
                January midnight UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to
                agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the architecture
                document. ***</span></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Does the above address the open items?<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com">
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">All in all, there
                have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, some
                deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
                ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not
                be a real problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">-éric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">From: Robert Moskowitz <a
                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at
              16:08<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">To: Eric Vyncke <a
                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
              "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">"draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              Miika Komu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Cc: Roman Danyliw <a
                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>,
              Gonzalo Camarillo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a> <a
                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>,
              Erik Kline <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close
              all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">I had hoped to get -23 out end of
              last week, and missed my cutoff.  I am now in IACR's Real
              World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers for
              DRIP work.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">I was waiting for two analyzes that
              I got Jan 4, and incorporating them in.  I believe these
              SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">I will have a run of 1M DEX random
              HIs to HITs generated with no duplicates that I add in an
              Appendix along with the Python code.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost
              into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">For an Initiator, BEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">2 PK sig varifications.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">1 PK sig generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH keypair generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH secret derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">DEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">1 DH secret derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">I have cycles for these and a paper
              to reference, except ECDH keypair generation, on an 8 bit
              process and the numbers are big.  But I think that part
              belongs in an Appendix.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">So unlikely Friday.  But early the
              following week.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke
              (evyncke) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Two months after the email below, I
              sending a kind reminder to authors and WG.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">With the -22, a lot of (if not all )
              SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should have been addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">As far as I can tell, the other
              remaining issue was Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when
              some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an
              email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set
              of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS
              than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls
              into question the need to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">While 2 months ago I put a deadline
              for tomorrow, I (as the responsible AD) am flexible of
              course but we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23 is
              in the work for weeks =&gt; let’s publish it in the coming
              days.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Else, next week we will need to
              either change the intended status to experimental or
              declare the document dead by lack of energy. The latter
              does not have my preference obviously.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">From: Hipsec <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
              on behalf of "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at
              15:32<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>,
              Robert Moskowitz <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>,
              Miika Komu <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Cc: Roman Danyliw <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>,
              Gonzalo Camarillo <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>,
              Erik Kline <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all
              draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Dear HIP, dear authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">This document was requested for
              publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 years ago), then its
              IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took over this
              document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went
              again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are
              still DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple
              of revised I-D...<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Difficult not to observe that this
              document does not progress very fast.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Moreover, this document is a
              normative reference for rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC
              editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking the
              HIP-NAT document [2].<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">After discussion with the HIP chair,
              Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the following decision: if a
              revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr’s
              ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January
              2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the
              complete removal of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis
              document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the
              reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow the
              immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT
              documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">The HIP DEX authors may also select
              to change the intended status of the document to
              ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may reduce
              the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Gonzalo and I are still hoping to
              get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">[1] <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/"
                moz-do-not-send="true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">[2] <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386"
                moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">[3] and possibly I will set the
              state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the datatracker<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Robert Moskowitz<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">Owner<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">HTT Consulting<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">C:      248-219-2059<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">F:      248-968-2824<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">E:      <a
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText">There's no limit to what can be
              accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 05:51:49 -0800
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To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>,  "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,  "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>,  Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
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Thanks for the link. However, this paper appears only to cover X25519. We'd
need a comparison of this to P384, etc. in order to assess the relative
performance of SIGMA-style protocols with NIST curves with HIP-DEX with
X25519

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 8:35 AM Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
wrote:

> Ah, found the paper 'free' from:
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_E=
lliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers
>
> pg 13 is the table I am using.  Please check that you can access this URL=
.
>
> On 1/18/21 11:13 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>
> Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.  I responded with a different
> paper.  All else is still ok, but let me dig a big more on that paper for
> non-IACR members.
>
> On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>
>
>
> Bob,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork) and I understand that
> you are quite busy.
>
>
>
> Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=3Ddraft-ie=
tf-hip-dex-21 (i.e.,
> the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)
>
>
>
> After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a couple of
> points to be addressed (with some comments of mine as EVY>):
>
>    - Roman: =E2=80=9CSection 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should=
 these
>    two different derivations be used? "
>       - EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is said
>       which one to use in which case.
>
>
>        IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
>                  or
>                  IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material
>
>        IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
>        IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
>                      ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
>                      the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))
>
> Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the
> Pair-wise Key SA.
>
>
>    - Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
>    non-blocking) about " further implementation experience provides
>    better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>       - EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>
>
> The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG
> Considerations
>
> Perhaps I should delete it from there.
>
>
>    -
>       - Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>       - EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>
>
> I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for tests, but
> this is a lot of code to put into the document.  Right now it is privatel=
y
> held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find some permanent home for it=
.
>
>
>    -
>       - Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>       - EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>
>
> Sec 7.1 is referenced.
>
>
>    -
>       - Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs.
>    BEX"
>       - EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be repeated in
>       the security section
>
>
> I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):
>
> 9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX
>
>    Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
>    compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one of
>    the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
>    Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
>    endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.
>
>
> Will this work?
>
>
>    -
>       - Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
>    inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>
>
> See sec 9.1
>
>
>    -
>    - Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
>    keys"
>
>
> 9.  Security Considerations
>
> ....
>
>    *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key SAs
>       is based on the quality of the random keying material generated by
>       the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a sensor
>       or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
>       quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a CSPRNG
>       SHOULD be used.
>
>
>
>    -
>    - Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>       - EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern
>
>
> Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the
> concern.  I did not need to go further.
>
>
>    -
>       - Ekr=E2=80=99s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm cou=
ld do it
>    in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote =
=E2=80=9Cit
>    defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS =
than
>    other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the=
 need
>    to dispense with FS.=E2=80=9D
>       - EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a paywall
>       EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive motivation for an =
IETF
>       standards w/o FS.
>
>
> Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this.  It may b=
e
> to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the wrong URL.
>
> Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all else:
>
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1
>
> So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried it o=
n
> another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even if
> big progress has been made)
>
>
>
> As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered for too
> long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
>
>
>
> *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the
> above (and noting again that a change to =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 =
=E2=80=93 as there are no
> deployed implementations =E2=80=93 could probably fix all of them) before=
 Thursday
> 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to agree
> removing the HIP-DEX section from the architecture document. ***
>
>
> Does the above address the open items?
>
>
>
> All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, som=
e
> deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=3Ddraft-ie=
tf-hip-dex-21
> ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a real proble=
m.
>
>
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
> <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
> Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>
> To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com> <evyncke@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke
> (evyncke)" <evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> <evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.or=
g>
> <hipsec@ietf.org> <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla
> <ekr@rtfm.com> <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo
> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com> <rene.hummen@belden.com=
>
> <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> <kaduk@mit.edu>,
> Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com> <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>
>
> I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.  I am
> now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers fo=
r
> DRIP work.
>
>
>
> I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating them
> in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.
>
>
>
> I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no
> duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>
>
>
> I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>
>
>
> For an Initiator, BEX is:
>
>
>
> 2 PK sig varifications.
>
> 1 PK sig generation.
>
> 1 DH keypair generation.
>
> 1 DH secret derivation.
>
>
>
> DEX is:
>
>
>
> 1 DH secret derivation.
>
>
>
> I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH keypair
> generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big.  But I think tha=
t
> part belongs in an Appendix.
>
>
>
> So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors an=
d
> WG.
>
>
>
> With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs=E2=80=99 DISCUSS points shou=
ld have
> been addressed.
>
>
>
> As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr=E2=80=99s one abo=
ut why
> forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an
> email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote =E2=80=9Cit defines a set of para=
meters
> (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519)
> are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need to dispense with FS.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the responsible
> AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23
> is in the work for weeks =3D> let=E2=80=99s publish it in the coming days=
.
>
>
>
> Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status to
> experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy. The latter
> does not have my preference obviously.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org <hipsec-bounces@ietf.org> on
> behalf of "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)"
> mailto:evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> <evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>
> Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>
> To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org <hipsec@ietf.org> mailto:hipsec@ietf.org
> <hipsec@ietf.org>, mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz
> mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Miika Komu
> mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla
> mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo
> mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <rene.hummen@belden.com>
> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk
> mailto:kaduk@mit.edu <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com
> <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>
>
> Dear HIP, dear authors,
>
>
>
> This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5
> years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took over
> this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went again
> through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still DISCUSS points t=
o
> be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...
>
>
>
> Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very fast.
>
>
>
> Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis waiting
> in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking the HIP-NAT
> document [2].
>
>
>
> After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the
> following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points =
+
> Ekr=E2=80=99s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January 2021)=
, then I
> will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal of section A.3.3 o=
f
> the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the
> reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow the immediate
> publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>
>
>
> The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status of the
> document to =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 (if the HIP WG agrees) as this=
 may reduce the
> security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>
>
>
> Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>
> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=3DC386
>
> [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as =E2=80=98dead=E2=80=
=99 on the
> datatracker
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Robert Moskowitz
>
> Owner
>
> HTT Consulting
>
> C:      248-219-2059
>
> F:      248-968-2824
>
> E:      mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
>
>
> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who get=
s
> the credit
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the link. However, this paper appears only to c=
over X25519. We&#39;d need a comparison of this to P384, etc. in order to a=
ssess the relative performance of SIGMA-style protocols with NIST curves wi=
th HIP-DEX with X25519<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 8:35 AM Robert Moskowitz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgm@htt-consult.com" target=3D"_blank">rgm@htt-consul=
t.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    Ah, found the paper &#39;free&#39; from:<br>
    <br>
<a href=3D"https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and=
_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_an=
d_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers</a><br>
    <br>
    pg 13 is the table I am using.=C2=A0 Please check that you can access
    this URL.<br>
    <br>
    <div>On 1/18/21 11:13 AM, Robert Moskowitz
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.=C2=A0 I responded with a
      different paper.=C2=A0 All else is still ok, but let me dig a big mor=
e
      on that paper for non-IACR members.<br>
      <br>
      <div>On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
       =20
        <br>
        <br>
        <div>On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke
          (evyncke) wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
         =20
         =20
         =20
         =20
          <div>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">TD=C2=A0;LR=C2=A0: more
                work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p>Bob, <u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">T</span>hank you
              for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)<span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> and I understand that you are quite busy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>Here is the link to the diff between
              -21 and -23: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Dd=
raft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-21" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-=
ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
              <span lang=3D"EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG
                evaluation and the latest one)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>After the July 2020 IESG evaluation
              <span lang=3D"EN-US">based </span>on -<span lang=3D"EN-US">21=
</span>,
              there were a couple of points to be addressed<span lang=3D"EN=
-US"> (with some comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:<u></u><u></u></p>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <li>Roman:
                =E2=80=9CSection 6.3.=C2=A0 Per the definition of IKM, when=
 should
                these two different derivations be used? <span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&quot; <u></u><u></u></span></li>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; indeed, IKMm and IKMp are =
both
                    defined but nothing is said which one to use in
                    which case.</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying mater=
ial<br>
        <br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMm=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Kij | I_NONCE<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMp=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of
        the<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ENCRYPTED_KEY parame=
ters in the same order
        as<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the HITs with sort(H=
IT-I | HIT-R))<br>
        <br>
        Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for
        the Pair-wise Key SA.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Roman &quot;discuss-discuss&quot; (r=
ead this as
                  request for reply and non-blocking) about &quot;</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US">further
                  implementation experience provides better guidance&quot; =
in
                  sections 6 and 9.<u></u><u></u></span></li>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; this really pleads for
                    experimental status</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:=C2=A0 iES=
G
        Considerations<br>
        <br>
        Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin on FOLD collisions <u></u><=
u></u></span></li>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; IMHO addressed in the new
                    section 3.2.1</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        I believe I have this covered.=C2=A0 We have the Python scripts for
        tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document.=C2=A0
        Right now it is privately held by Adam and I.=C2=A0 If called on, w=
e
        can find some permanent home for it.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD
                  collisions in section 3.2.1<u></u><u></u></span></li>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; still light on the ACL but=
 the
                    above should clear it</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin &quot;how is it known that =
the peer
                  should be using DEX vs. BEX&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></l=
i>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; partially addressed in sec=
tion
                    1.2 but should be repeated in the security section</spa=
n></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
        <br>
        9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
        <br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0 Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees o=
f HIP
        DEX<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0 compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at=
 least
        one of<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0 the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device
        defined in<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0 Section 3 of [RFC7228]).=C2=A0 HIP DEX MUST NOT be use=
d when both<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0 endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        Will this work?<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin lack of discussion on the
                  security consequences of inadvertent counter reuse in
                  AES-CTR</span></li>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        See sec 9.1<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
              </li>
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin &quot;presence of a CSPRNG =
in order
                  to obtain secure session keys&quot;</span></li>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        9.=C2=A0 Security Considerations<br>
        <br>
        ....<br>
        <br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 The strength of the keys for both the Master a=
nd Pair-wise
        Key SAs<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is based on the quality of the rando=
m keying material
        generated by<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the Initiator and the Responder.=C2=
=A0 As either peer may be a
        sensor<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or an actuator device, there is a na=
tural concern about
        the<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 quality of its random number generat=
or.=C2=A0 Thus at least a
        CSPRNG<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SHOULD be used.<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
              </li>
              <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin &quot;usage of CMAC instead=
 of HMAC&quot;
                  about KEYMAT algorithm<u></u><u></u></span></li>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; new reference to NIST pape=
rs
                    seems to address this concern</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed
        the concern.=C2=A0 I did not need to go further.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
              <li>Ekr=E2=80=99s
                one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do
                it in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs,
                Eric R. wrote =E2=80=9Cit defines a set of parameters (the =
NIST
                curves) which are slower w/o FS than other parameters
                (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the
                need to dispense with FS.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></li>
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; the additional section 1.2=
.1
                    and the reference to a paywall EfficientECC
                    reference do not offer a conclusive motivation for
                    an IETF standards w/o FS.</span></li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Paywall?=C2=A0 Hmm.=C2=A0 I got it free.=C2=A0 I will have to check=
 into this.=C2=A0
        It may be to some cookie I have on this system.=C2=A0 Or the DOI ha=
s
        the wrong URL.<br>
        <br>
        Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.=C2=A0 For al=
l
        else:<br>
        <br>
        <a href=3D"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-008=
7-1" target=3D"_blank">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015=
-0087-1</a><br>
        <br>
        So I will change the reference.=C2=A0 But please check this out.=C2=
=A0 I
        tried it on another machine that should not have my IACR
        cookies, but...<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
              <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"circle">
                <li><u></u><u></u><br>
                </li>
              </ul>
            </ul>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">***Bottom line,
                the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even
                if big progress has been made)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">As written in
                November (see below), the situation has lingered for too
                long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis
                documents. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">*** Therefore, I
                request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the
                above (and noting again that a change to =E2=80=98experimen=
tal=E2=80=99
                =E2=80=93 as there are no deployed implementations =E2=80=
=93 could
                probably fix all of them) before Thursday 21st of
                January midnight UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to
                agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the architecture
                document. ***</span></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Does the above address the open items?<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <div>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">All in all, there
                have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, some
                deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see <a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-i=
etf-hip-dex-21" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-=
ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
                ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not
                be a real problem.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=C3=A9ric<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>From: Robert Moskowitz <a href=3D"mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consul=
t.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
            <p>Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at
              16:08<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>To: Eric Vyncke <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
              &quot;Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke=
=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;evyncke=3D40cisco.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&quot;hi=
psec@ietf.org&quot;</a>
              <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;hips=
ec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">&quot;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&quot;</a>
              <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              Miika Komu <a href=3D"mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com" target=
=3D"_blank">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Cc: Roman Danyliw <a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"=
_blank">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">&l=
t;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>,
              Gonzalo Camarillo <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsso=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" target=3D"_blank">&=
quot;rene.hummen@belden.com&quot;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.=
com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>,
              Erik Kline <a href=3D"mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close
              all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>I had hoped to get -23 out end of
              last week, and missed my cutoff.=C2=A0 I am now in IACR&#39;s=
 Real
              World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers for
              DRIP work.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>I was waiting for two analyzes that
              I got Jan 4, and incorporating them in.=C2=A0 I believe these
              SHOULD address much of EKR&#39;s questions.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>I will have a run of 1M DEX random
              HIs to HITs generated with no duplicates that I add in an
              Appendix along with the Python code.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost
              into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>For an Initiator, BEX is:<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>2 PK sig varifications.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>1 PK sig generation.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>1 DH keypair generation.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>1 DH secret derivation.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>DEX is:<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>1 DH secret derivation.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>I have cycles for these and a paper
              to reference, except ECDH keypair generation, on an 8 bit
              process and the numbers are big.=C2=A0 But I think that part
              belongs in an Appendix.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>So unlikely Friday.=C2=A0 But early the
              following week.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke
              (evyncke) wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Two months after the email below, I
              sending a kind reminder to authors and WG.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>With the -22, a lot of (if not all )
              SEC ADs=E2=80=99 DISCUSS points should have been addressed.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>As far as I can tell, the other
              remaining issue was Ekr=E2=80=99s one about why forfeiting FS=
 when
              some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an
              email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote =E2=80=9Cit defines a=
 set
              of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS
              than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls
              into question the need to dispense with FS.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u=
></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>While 2 months ago I put a deadline
              for tomorrow, I (as the responsible AD) am flexible of
              course but we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23 is
              in the work for weeks =3D&gt; let=E2=80=99s publish it in the=
 coming
              days.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Else, next week we will need to
              either change the intended status to experimental or
              declare the document dead by lack of energy. The latter
              does not have my preference obviously.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>-=C3=A9ric<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>From: Hipsec <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
              on behalf of &quot;Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&quot; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:evyncke=
=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at
              15:32<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>To: <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mai=
lto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>
              <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:h=
ipsec@ietf.org</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
              <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>,
              Robert Moskowitz <a href=3D"mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>,
              Miika Komu <a href=3D"mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Cc: Roman Danyliw <a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
ilto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>,
              Gonzalo Camarillo <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsso=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
ailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>
              <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
ailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>,
              Erik Kline <a href=3D"mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all
              draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Dear HIP, dear authors,<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>This document was requested for
              publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5 years ago), then its
              IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took over this
              document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went
              again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are
              still DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple
              of revised I-D...<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Difficult not to observe that this
              document does not progress very fast.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Moreover, this document is a
              normative reference for rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC
              editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking the
              HIP-NAT document [2].<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>After discussion with the HIP chair,
              Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the following decision: if a
              revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr=E2=80=
=99s
              ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January
              2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the
              complete removal of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis
              document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the
              reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow the
              immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT
              documents.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>The HIP DEX authors may also select
              to change the intended status of the document to
              =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 (if the HIP WG agrees) as this=
 may reduce
              the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Gonzalo and I are still hoping to
              get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>-=C3=A9ric<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>[1] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-h=
ip-dex/history/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-i=
etf-hip-dex/history/</a>
              <u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>[2] <a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?c=
id=3DC386" target=3D"_blank">https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?ci=
d=3DC386</a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>[3] and possibly I will set the
              state of HIP-DEX as =E2=80=98dead=E2=80=99 on the datatracker=
<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>-- <u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Robert Moskowitz<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>Owner<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>HTT Consulting<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p>C:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0248-219-2059<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
            <p>F:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0248-968-2824<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
            <p>E:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:rgm@=
labs.htt-consult.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
            <p>There&#39;s no limit to what can be
              accomplished if it doesn&#39;t matter who gets the credit<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000000c4a5305b9412625--


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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
References: <68AF0368-8CB8-4DF3-A33E-0AA28E61B5F5@cisco.com> <45191baf-ee46-89b8-fe84-742c5c17aadc@labs.htt-consult.com> <41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com> <5f52aa64-48aa-87d3-5225-1741ca87b89d@htt-consult.com> <769d84b8-0e9f-dc8d-ee3e-62e724a830fc@htt-consult.com> <eb82ead5-9f73-0be0-acdd-a3c52f216d32@htt-consult.com> <CABcZeBO6+GWeL5-9KppLiAgszgqABVLqzBMJZ6ywqSgBsDDxsw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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X25519 (and x448) is the only curve remaining in HIP DEX.

In checking on this, I see I do need to remove text from 9.3 which is 
the only remaining reference.

Of course there is the valid question of why x448 is still there. 
Probably should remove it as well.

So looking into p384:

If you follow this link:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi0_P_ZlKjuAhVGHc0KHSyyDdgQFjAEegQIBRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcryptobook.nakov.com%2Fasymmetric-key-ciphers%2Felliptic-curve-cryptography-ecc&usg=AOvVaw3i71pEYmIH0HT9pwbTca4j

you get a very recent paper on P-256 and it is slower than X25519.

Then there is this:

https://cockrum.net/Implementation_of_ECC_on_an_8-bit_microcontroller.pdf

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.10313.pdf

If you want to roll your own test:

https://github.com/kmackay/micro-ecc

But again, on your recommendation (and a good one!), I removed the NIST 
curves due to their poorer performance over x25519.



On 1/19/21 8:51 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Thanks for the link. However, this paper appears only to cover X25519. 
> We'd need a comparison of this to P384, etc. in order to assess the 
> relative performance of SIGMA-style protocols with NIST curves with 
> HIP-DEX with X25519
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 8:35 AM Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com 
> <mailto:rgm@htt-consult.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ah, found the paper 'free' from:
>
>     https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers
>     <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers>
>
>     pg 13 is the table I am using.  Please check that you can access
>     this URL.
>
>     On 1/18/21 11:13 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>     Oops hold it on that paywall URL issue.  I responded with a
>>     different paper.  All else is still ok, but let me dig a big more
>>     on that paper for non-IACR members.
>>
>>     On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>>>>
>>>>     Bob,
>>>>
>>>>     Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)and I
>>>>     understand that you are quite busy.
>>>>
>>>>     Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23:
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>>>>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21>
>>>>     (i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest
>>>>     one)
>>>>
>>>>     After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a
>>>>     couple of points to be addressed(with some comments of mine as
>>>>     EVY>):
>>>>
>>>>       * Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when
>>>>         should these two different derivations be used? "
>>>>           o EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing
>>>>             is said which one to use in which case.
>>>>
>>>
>>>            IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
>>>                      or
>>>                      IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material
>>>
>>>            IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
>>>            IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
>>>                          ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
>>>                          the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))
>>>
>>>     Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for
>>>     the Pair-wise Key SA.
>>>
>>>>       * Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
>>>>         non-blocking) about "further implementation experience
>>>>         provides better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>>>>           o EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>>>>
>>>
>>>     The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG
>>>     Considerations
>>>
>>>     Perhaps I should delete it from there.
>>>
>>>>          o
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>>>>           o EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>>>>
>>>
>>>     I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for
>>>     tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document. 
>>>     Right now it is privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we
>>>     can find some permanent home for it.
>>>
>>>>          o
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>>>>           o EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>>>>
>>>
>>>     Sec 7.1 is referenced.
>>>
>>>>          o
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX
>>>>         vs. BEX"
>>>>           o EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be
>>>>             repeated in the security section
>>>>
>>>
>>>     I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):
>>>
>>>     9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX
>>>
>>>        Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
>>>        compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least
>>>     one of
>>>        the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
>>>        Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
>>>        endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Will this work?
>>>
>>>>          o
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
>>>>         inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>>>>
>>>
>>>     See sec 9.1
>>>
>>>>      *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure
>>>>         session keys"
>>>>
>>>
>>>     9.  Security Considerations
>>>
>>>     ....
>>>
>>>        *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise
>>>     Key SAs
>>>           is based on the quality of the random keying material
>>>     generated by
>>>           the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a
>>>     sensor
>>>           or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
>>>           quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a
>>>     CSPRNG
>>>           SHOULD be used.
>>>
>>>
>>>>      *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>>>>           o EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this
>>>>             concern
>>>>
>>>
>>>     Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed
>>>     the concern.  I did not need to go further.
>>>
>>>>          o
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could
>>>>         do it in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs,
>>>>         Eric R. wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST
>>>>         curves) which are slower w/o FS than other parameters
>>>>         (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need
>>>>         to dispense with FS.”
>>>>           o EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to
>>>>             a paywall EfficientECC reference do not offer a
>>>>             conclusive motivation for an IETF standards w/o FS.
>>>>
>>>
>>>     Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this. 
>>>     It may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has
>>>     the wrong URL.
>>>
>>>     Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member. For all else:
>>>
>>>     https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1
>>>     <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1>
>>>
>>>     So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I
>>>     tried it on another machine that should not have my IACR
>>>     cookies, but...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>          o
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be
>>>>     approved.*** (even if big progress has been made)
>>>>
>>>>     As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered
>>>>     for too long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis
>>>>     documents.
>>>>
>>>>     *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D
>>>>     addressing the above (and noting again that a change to
>>>>     ‘experimental’ – as there are no deployed implementations –
>>>>     could probably fix all of them) before Thursday 21st of January
>>>>     midnight UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to agree removing
>>>>     the HIP-DEX section from the architecture document. ***
>>>>
>>>
>>>     Does the above address the open items?
>>>
>>>>     All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes
>>>>     (I_NONCE, some deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>>>>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21>
>>>>     ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a
>>>>     real problem.
>>>>
>>>>     -éric
>>>>
>>>>     From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>>>>     <mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>>>>
>>>>     Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>>>>
>>>>     To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com> <mailto:evyncke@cisco.com>,
>>>>     "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>>>>     <mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org"
>>>>     <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org> <hipsec@ietf.org>
>>>>     <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
>>>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
>>>>     <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
>>>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu
>>>>     <miika.komu@ericsson.com> <mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>>>>
>>>>     Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> <mailto:rdd@cert.org>, Eric
>>>>     Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo
>>>>     Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
>>>>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
>>>>     "rene.hummen@belden.com" <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>
>>>>     <rene.hummen@belden.com> <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>,
>>>>     Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik
>>>>     Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>     Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>>>>     pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>>>>
>>>>     I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my
>>>>     cutoff.  I am now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have
>>>>     gotten a couple pointers for DRIP work.
>>>>
>>>>     I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and
>>>>     incorporating them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of
>>>>     EKR's questions.
>>>>
>>>>     I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with
>>>>     no duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>>>>
>>>>     I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>>>>
>>>>     For an Initiator, BEX is:
>>>>
>>>>     2 PK sig varifications.
>>>>
>>>>     1 PK sig generation.
>>>>
>>>>     1 DH keypair generation.
>>>>
>>>>     1 DH secret derivation.
>>>>
>>>>     DEX is:
>>>>
>>>>     1 DH secret derivation.
>>>>
>>>>     I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH
>>>>     keypair generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are
>>>>     big.  But I think that part belongs in an Appendix.
>>>>
>>>>     So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>>>>
>>>>     On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to
>>>>     authors and WG.
>>>>
>>>>     With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points
>>>>     should have been addressed.
>>>>
>>>>     As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one
>>>>     about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a
>>>>     reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote
>>>>     “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are
>>>>     slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This
>>>>     fact calls into question the need to dispense with FS.”
>>>>
>>>>     While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the
>>>>     responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger
>>>>     anymore. I know that a -23 is in the work for weeks => let’s
>>>>     publish it in the coming days.
>>>>
>>>>     Else, next week we will need to either change the intended
>>>>     status to experimental or declare the document dead by lack of
>>>>     energy. The latter does not have my preference obviously.
>>>>
>>>>     Regards
>>>>
>>>>     -éric
>>>>
>>>>     From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>     <mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Eric Vyncke
>>>>     (evyncke)" mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>>>>     <mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>     Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>>>>
>>>>     To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org>
>>>>     mailto:hipsec@ietf.org <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org>,
>>>>     mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
>>>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
>>>>     mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
>>>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz
>>>>     mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com
>>>>     <mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Miika Komu
>>>>     mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com <mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>>>>
>>>>     Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org <mailto:rdd@cert.org>,
>>>>     Eric Rescorla mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>,
>>>>     Gonzalo Camarillo mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
>>>>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
>>>>     mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>
>>>>     mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>,
>>>>     Benjamin Kaduk mailto:kaduk@mit.edu <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>,
>>>>     Erik Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>     Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>>>>     pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>>>>
>>>>     Dear HIP, dear authors,
>>>>
>>>>     This document was requested for publication [1] in February
>>>>     2018 (2.5 years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been
>>>>     deferred, then I took over this document from Terry Manderson
>>>>     in March 2019, then it went again through IESG evaluation in
>>>>     July 2020 and there are still DISCUSS points to be addressed
>>>>     even after a couple of revised I-D...
>>>>
>>>>     Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress
>>>>     very fast.
>>>>
>>>>     Moreover, this document is a normative reference for
>>>>     rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019...
>>>>     So, also blocking the HIP-NAT document [2].
>>>>
>>>>     After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have
>>>>     taken the following decision: if a revised I-D addressing
>>>>     remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2
>>>>     months (13th of January 2021), then I will request the HIP WG
>>>>     to accept the complete removal of section A.3.3 of the
>>>>     rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix) +
>>>>     the reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow the
>>>>     immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>>>>
>>>>     The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended
>>>>     status of the document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees)
>>>>     as this may reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>>>>
>>>>     Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>>>>
>>>>     Regards
>>>>
>>>>     -éric
>>>>
>>>>     [1]
>>>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>>>>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/>
>>>>
>>>>     [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386
>>>>     <https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386>
>>>>
>>>>     [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on
>>>>     the datatracker
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>
>>>>     Robert Moskowitz
>>>>
>>>>     Owner
>>>>
>>>>     HTT Consulting
>>>>
>>>>     C:      248-219-2059
>>>>
>>>>     F:      248-968-2824
>>>>
>>>>     E: mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com
>>>>     <mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>>>>
>>>>     There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't
>>>>     matter who gets the credit
>>>>
>>>
>>
>


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    X25519 (and x448) is the only curve remaining in HIP DEX.<br>
    <br>
    In checking on this, I see I do need to remove text from 9.3 which
    is the only remaining reference.<br>
    <br>
    Of course there is the valid question of why x448 is still there. 
    Probably should remove it as well.<br>
    <br>
    So looking into p384:<br>
    <br>
    If you follow this link:<br>
    <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=2ahUKEwi0_P_ZlKjuAhVGHc0KHSyyDdgQFjAEegQIBRAC&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fcryptobook.nakov.com%2Fasymmetric-key-ciphers%2Felliptic-curve-cryptography-ecc&amp;usg=AOvVaw3i71pEYmIH0HT9pwbTca4j">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=2ahUKEwi0_P_ZlKjuAhVGHc0KHSyyDdgQFjAEegQIBRAC&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fcryptobook.nakov.com%2Fasymmetric-key-ciphers%2Felliptic-curve-cryptography-ecc&amp;usg=AOvVaw3i71pEYmIH0HT9pwbTca4j</a><br>
    <br>
    you get a very recent paper on P-256 and it is slower than X25519.<br>
    <br>
    Then there is this:<br>
    <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cockrum.net/Implementation_of_ECC_on_an_8-bit_microcontroller.pdf">https://cockrum.net/Implementation_of_ECC_on_an_8-bit_microcontroller.pdf</a><br>
    <br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.10313.pdf">https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.10313.pdf</a><br>
    <br>
    If you want to roll your own test:<br>
    <br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/kmackay/micro-ecc">https://github.com/kmackay/micro-ecc</a><br>
    <br>
    But again, on your recommendation (and a good one!), I removed the
    NIST curves due to their poorer performance over x25519.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/19/21 8:51 AM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABcZeBO6+GWeL5-9KppLiAgszgqABVLqzBMJZ6ywqSgBsDDxsw@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Thanks for the link. However, this paper appears
        only to cover X25519. We'd need a comparison of this to P384,
        etc. in order to assess the relative performance of SIGMA-style
        protocols with NIST curves with HIP-DEX with X25519<br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 8:35
          AM Robert Moskowitz &lt;<a href="mailto:rgm@htt-consult.com"
            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rgm@htt-consult.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div> Ah, found the paper 'free' from:<br>
            <br>
            <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers"
              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300253314_Efficient_and_Secure_Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_for_8-bit_AVR_Microcontrollers</a><br>
            <br>
            pg 13 is the table I am using.  Please check that you can
            access this URL.<br>
            <br>
            <div>On 1/18/21 11:13 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite"> Oops hold it on that paywall URL
              issue.  I responded with a different paper.  All else is
              still ok, but let me dig a big more on that paper for
              non-IACR members.<br>
              <br>
              <div>On 1/18/21 11:06 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                <br>
                <div>On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">TD ;LR : more work to be done,
                        deadline this Thursday 21st</span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p>Bob, </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">T</span>hank you for the -23
                      (and Adam W for the footwork)<span lang="EN-US">
                        and I understand that you are quite busy.</span></p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23:
                      <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
                      <span lang="EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July
                        2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)</span></p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>After the July 2020 IESG evaluation <span
                        lang="EN-US">based </span>on -<span
                        lang="EN-US">21</span>, there were a couple of
                      points to be addressed<span lang="EN-US"> (with
                        some comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:</p>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <li>Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of
                        IKM, when should these two different derivations
                        be used? <span lang="EN-US">" </span></li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; indeed, IKMm and
                            IKMp are both defined but nothing is said
                            which one to use in which case.</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                       IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying
                material<br>
                                 or<br>
                                 IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying
                material<br>
                <br>
                       IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE<br>
                       IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random
                values of the<br>
                                     ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the
                same order as<br>
                                     the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))<br>
                <br>
                Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp
                is for the Pair-wise Key SA.<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Roman "discuss-discuss"
                          (read this as request for reply and
                          non-blocking) about "</span><span lang="EN-US">
                        </span><span lang="EN-US">further implementation
                          experience provides better guidance" in
                          sections 6 and 9.</span></li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; this really
                            pleads for experimental status</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix
                C:  iESG Considerations<br>
                <br>
                Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin on FOLD collisions
                        </span></li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; IMHO addressed in
                            the new section 3.2.1</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python
                scripts for tests, but this is a lot of code to put into
                the document.  Right now it is privately held by Adam
                and I.  If called on, we can find some permanent home
                for it.<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin on ACL to counter
                          FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1</span></li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; still light on
                            the ACL but the above should clear it</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin "how is it known
                          that the peer should be using DEX vs. BEX"</span></li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; partially
                            addressed in section 1.2 but should be
                            repeated in the security section</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
                <br>
                9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
                <br>
                   Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees
                of HIP DEX<br>
                   compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when
                at least one of<br>
                   the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained
                device defined in<br>
                   Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used
                when both<br>
                   endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                Will this work?<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin lack of discussion
                          on the security consequences of inadvertent
                          counter reuse in AES-CTR</span></li>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                See sec 9.1<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                      </li>
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin "presence of a
                          CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session keys"</span></li>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                9.  Security Considerations<br>
                <br>
                ....<br>
                <br>
                   *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and
                Pair-wise Key SAs<br>
                      is based on the quality of the random keying
                material generated by<br>
                      the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer
                may be a sensor<br>
                      or an actuator device, there is a natural concern
                about the<br>
                      quality of its random number generator.  Thus at
                least a CSPRNG<br>
                      SHOULD be used.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                      </li>
                      <li><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin "usage of CMAC
                          instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm</span></li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; new reference to
                            NIST papers seems to address this concern</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108
                addressed the concern.  I did not need to go further.<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US"></span><br>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                      <li>Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some
                        algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In
                        an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it
                        defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves)
                        which are slower w/o FS than other parameters
                        (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
                        question the need to dispense with FS.”</li>
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; the additional
                            section 1.2.1 and the reference to a paywall
                            EfficientECC reference do not offer a
                            conclusive motivation for an IETF standards
                            w/o FS.</span></li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check
                into this.  It may be to some cookie I have on this
                system.  Or the DOI has the wrong URL.<br>
                <br>
                Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member. 
                For all else:<br>
                <br>
                <a
                  href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1</a><br>
                <br>
                So I will change the reference.  But please check this
                out.  I tried it on another machine that should not have
                my IACR cookies, but...<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                      <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
                        <li><br>
                        </li>
                      </ul>
                    </ul>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">***Bottom line, the document
                        is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even if big
                        progress has been made)</span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">As written in November (see
                        below), the situation has lingered for too long
                        and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis
                        documents. </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">*** Therefore, I request the
                        authors for a revised I-D addressing the above
                        (and noting again that a change to
                        ‘experimental’ – as there are no deployed
                        implementations – could probably fix all of
                        them) before Thursday 21st of January midnight
                        UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to agree
                        removing the HIP-DEX section from the
                        architecture document. ***</span></p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                Does the above address the open items?<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">All in all, there have been a
                        couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, some
                        deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
                        ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but
                        should not be a real problem.</span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US">-éric</span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>From: Robert Moskowitz <a
                        href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a></p>
                    <p>Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08</p>
                    <p>To: Eric Vyncke <a
                        href="mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
                      "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a
                        href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                      <a href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a> <a
                        href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                      <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">"draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a>
                      <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                      Miika Komu <a
                        href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a></p>
                    <p>Cc: Roman Danyliw <a href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>,
                      Eric Rescorla <a href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>,
                      Gonzalo Camarillo <a
                        href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
                      <a href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a>
                      <a href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
                      Benjamin Kaduk <a href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>,
                      Erik Kline <a href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a></p>
                    <p>Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all
                      draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
                      2021-Jan-13...</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and
                      missed my cutoff.  I am now in IACR's Real World
                      Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers for
                      DRIP work.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4,
                      and incorporating them in.  I believe these SHOULD
                      address much of EKR's questions.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs
                      generated with no duplicates that I add in an
                      Appendix along with the Python code.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2,
                      probably 1.2.1:</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>For an Initiator, BEX is:</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>2 PK sig varifications.</p>
                    <p>1 PK sig generation.</p>
                    <p>1 DH keypair generation.</p>
                    <p>1 DH secret derivation.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>DEX is:</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>1 DH secret derivation.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>I have cycles for these and a paper to reference,
                      except ECDH keypair generation, on an 8 bit
                      process and the numbers are big.  But I think that
                      part belongs in an Appendix.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>So unlikely Friday.  But early the following
                      week.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:</p>
                    <p>Two months after the email below, I sending a
                      kind reminder to authors and WG.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’
                      DISCUSS points should have been addressed.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue
                      was Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some
                      algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an
                      email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it
                      defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves)
                      which are slower w/o FS than other parameters
                      (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question
                      the need to dispense with FS.”</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow,
                      I (as the responsible AD) am flexible of course
                      but we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23 is
                      in the work for weeks =&gt; let’s publish it in
                      the coming days.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Else, next week we will need to either change the
                      intended status to experimental or declare the
                      document dead by lack of energy. The latter does
                      not have my preference obviously.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Regards</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>-éric</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>From: Hipsec <a
                        href="mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                      on behalf of "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a
                        href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a></p>
                    <p>Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32</p>
                    <p>To: <a href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>
                      <a href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>,
                      <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
                      <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>,
                      Robert Moskowitz <a
                        href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>,
                      Miika Komu <a
                        href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a></p>
                    <p>Cc: Roman Danyliw <a href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>,
                      Eric Rescorla <a href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>,
                      Gonzalo Camarillo <a
                        href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
                      <a href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>
                      <a href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>,
                      Benjamin Kaduk <a href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>,
                      Erik Kline <a href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a></p>
                    <p>Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all
                      draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
                      2021-Jan-13...</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Dear HIP, dear authors,</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>This document was requested for publication [1]
                      in February 2018 (2.5 years ago), then its IESG
                      evaluation has been deferred, then I took over
                      this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019,
                      then it went again through IESG evaluation in July
                      2020 and there are still DISCUSS points to be
                      addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Difficult not to observe that this document does
                      not progress very fast.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Moreover, this document is a normative reference
                      for rfc4423-bis waiting in the RFC editor queue
                      since March 2019... So, also blocking the HIP-NAT
                      document [2].</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in
                      cc, we have taken the following decision: if a
                      revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points +
                      Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th
                      of January 2021), then I will request the HIP WG
                      to accept the complete removal of section A.3.3 of
                      the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in
                      the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX
                      document [3]. This will allow the immediate
                      publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT
                      documents.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the
                      intended status of the document to ‘experimental’
                      (if the HIP WG agrees) as this may reduce the
                      security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised
                      HIP-DEX shortly,</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>Regards</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>-éric</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>[1] <a
                        href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a>
                    </p>
                    <p>[2] <a
                        href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386</a></p>
                    <p>[3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX
                      as ‘dead’ on the datatracker</p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>-- </p>
                    <p>Robert Moskowitz</p>
                    <p>Owner</p>
                    <p>HTT Consulting</p>
                    <p>C:      248-219-2059</p>
                    <p>F:      248-968-2824</p>
                    <p>E:      <a href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a></p>
                    <p> </p>
                    <p>There's no limit to what can be accomplished if
                      it doesn't matter who gets the credit</p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
CC: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Gonzalo Camarillo" <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
Thread-Topic: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
Thread-Index: AQHW6ocQR6j818zXLUeYvsVAsj8W+6otktXYgAGMDoA=
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 14:44:29 +0000
Message-ID: <0651C536-61F4-4B95-A187-EC8F7BFD058D@cisco.com>
References: <68AF0368-8CB8-4DF3-A33E-0AA28E61B5F5@cisco.com> <45191baf-ee46-89b8-fe84-742c5c17aadc@labs.htt-consult.com> <41AFBFEA-7119-451B-BC54-46CBB41274CA@cisco.com> <5f52aa64-48aa-87d3-5225-1741ca87b89d@htt-consult.com>
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Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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On 1/19/21 9:44 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> Standard
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your reply. I took some time to review the points. Look 
> for EVY2> below but at first sight, this looks really good to me now. 
> Of course, Roman and Ben will have a final say.
>
> About Ekr’s comment, I am reading your latest email sent minutes ago, 
> and I am still unclear where, in the text, it is shown that FS is not 
> achievable.
>

1.2 (and 1.2.1) cover it.  the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPUs are 
reasonably able to handle.

If some vendor is willing to pay the cost of BEX, it is always an 
option.  Time and battery (and code) are against vendors going that 
route (choosing BEX for FS over DEX).


> Action plan: please apply the changes you have proposed below, post a 
> revised I-D, then on my side:
>
>   * Launching an IETF Last Call for 2 weeks (as written below some
>     important changes have been made but I expect the LC eventless)
>   * Probing Ben & Roman to review whether their DISCUSS still hold
>

I am ready with the changes.  I have an ICAO call I really need to get 
ready for, then a DR appt.  After that I will submit what I have if no 
new comments.

>  *
>
> Regards, it seems that the conclusion is near ;-)
>
> -éric
>
> *From: *Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 18 January 2021 at 17:06
> *To: *Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz 
> <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>, 
> "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika 
> Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> *Cc: *Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, 
> Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, 
> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk 
> <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter 
> <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 
> pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
> On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
>     TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>
>     Bob,
>
>     Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork)and I
>     understand that you are quite busy.
>
>     Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23:
>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21>
>     (i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)
>
>     After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a
>     couple of points to be addressed(with some comments of mine as EVY>):
>
>     1.Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when should
>     these two different derivations be used? "
>
>     1.EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is said
>     which one to use in which case.
>
>
>        IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
>                  or
>                  IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material
>
>        IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
>        IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
>                      ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
>                      the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))
>
> Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the 
> Pair-wise Key SA.
>
> EVY2> Suggest to add a pointer to section 2.3 (definitions) and 
> possibly create entries for the master key SA and pair-wise key SA 
> (perhaps a little extreme though)
>
>
>
>
>     2.Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
>     non-blocking) about " further implementation experience provides
>     better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>
>     1.EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>
>
> The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C: iESG 
> Considerations
>
> Perhaps I should delete it from there.
>
> EVY2> you can keep it the appendix, I guess this fixes Roman’s 
> “discuss-discuss”
>
>     2.
>
>     3.Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>
>     1.EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>
>
> I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for tests, 
> but this is a lot of code to put into the document. Right now it is 
> privately held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find some 
> permanent home for it.
>
>
>     2.
>
>     4.Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>
>     1.EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>
>
> Sec 7.1 is referenced.
>
>
>     2.
>
>     5.Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs. BEX"
>
>     1.EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be repeated
>     in the security section
>
>
> I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):
>
> 9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX
>
>    Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
>    compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one of
>    the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
>    Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
>    endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.
>
>
> Will this work?
>
> EVY2>  it works for me and hopefully for Ben as well
>
>     2.
>
>     6.Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
>     inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>
>
> See sec 9.1
>
> EVY2> Indeed, Ben’s ballot is dated March 2020 on the revision -13. It 
> seems to be fixed to me in the latest revisions.
>
>     7.
>
>     8.Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
>     keys"
>
>
> 9.  Security Considerations
>
> ....
>
>    *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key SAs
>       is based on the quality of the random keying material generated by
>       the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a sensor
>       or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
>       quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a CSPRNG
>       SHOULD be used.
>
> EVY2> indeed, I should have detected that Ben was not using the -21 
> but the -13 😉Now, please expand CSPRNG at first use.
>
>     9.
>
>     10.Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>
>     1.EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern
>
>
> Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the 
> concern.  I did not need to go further.
>
> EVY2> if Ben was happy, then I am happy. Thank you for the information.
>
>     2.
>
>     11.Ekr’s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do
>     it in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R.
>     wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are
>     slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact
>     calls into question the need to dispense with FS.”
>
>     1.EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a paywall
>     EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive motivation for an
>     IETF standards w/o FS.
>
>
> Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this.  It 
> may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the wrong 
> URL.
>
> Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all else:
>
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1 
> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1>
>
> So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried 
> it on another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...
>
>
>
>
>     2.
>
>     ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be approved.***
>     (even if big progress has been made)
>
>     As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered for
>     too long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
>
>     *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D addressing
>     the above (and noting again that a change to ‘experimental’ – as
>     there are no deployed implementations – could probably fix all of
>     them) before Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask
>     the HIPSEC WG to agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the
>     architecture document. ***
>
>
> Does the above address the open items?
>
>
>     All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes
>     (I_NONCE, some deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see
>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21>
>     ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a real
>     problem.
>
>     -éric
>
>     From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>     <mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
>     Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>
>     To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com> <mailto:evyncke@cisco.com>,
>     "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>     <mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org"
>     <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org> <hipsec@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu
>     <miika.komu@ericsson.com> <mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
>     Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> <mailto:rdd@cert.org>, Eric
>     Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo
>     <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "rene.hummen@belden.com"
>     <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com> <rene.hummen@belden.com>
>     <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
>     <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21
>     pending issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>     I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my
>     cutoff.  I am now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten
>     a couple pointers for DRIP work.
>
>     I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating
>     them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.
>
>     I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no
>     duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>
>     I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>
>     For an Initiator, BEX is:
>
>     2 PK sig varifications.
>
>     1 PK sig generation.
>
>     1 DH keypair generation.
>
>     1 DH secret derivation.
>
>     DEX is:
>
>     1 DH secret derivation.
>
>     I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH
>     keypair generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big. 
>     But I think that part belongs in an Appendix.
>
>     So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>
>     On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
>     Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to
>     authors and WG.
>
>     With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points
>     should have been addressed.
>
>     As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one
>     about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a
>     reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it
>     defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o
>     FS than other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
>     question the need to dispense with FS.”
>
>     While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the
>     responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger
>     anymore. I know that a -23 is in the work for weeks => let’s
>     publish it in the coming days.
>
>     Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status
>     to experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy.
>     The latter does not have my preference obviously.
>
>     Regards
>
>     -éric
>
>     From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Eric Vyncke
>     (evyncke)" mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>
>     Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>
>     To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org>
>     mailto:hipsec@ietf.org <mailto:hipsec@ietf.org>,
>     mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
>     mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz
>     mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com <mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>,
>     Miika Komu mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
>     Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org <mailto:rdd@cert.org>, Eric
>     Rescorla mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo
>     Camarillo mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
>     mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>
>     mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com>,
>     Benjamin Kaduk mailto:kaduk@mit.edu <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik
>     Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
>     Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
>     issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>     Dear HIP, dear authors,
>
>     This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018
>     (2.5 years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then
>     I took over this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then
>     it went again through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are
>     still DISCUSS points to be addressed even after a couple of
>     revised I-D...
>
>     Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very
>     fast.
>
>     Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis
>     waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also
>     blocking the HIP-NAT document [2].
>
>     After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken
>     the following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining
>     DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th
>     of January 2021), then I will request the HIP WG to accept the
>     complete removal of section A.3.3 of the rfc4423-bis document (1
>     page about HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the reference to the HIP-DEX
>     document [3]. This will allow the immediate publication of the
>     rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>
>     The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status
>     of the document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this
>     may reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>
>     Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>
>     Regards
>
>     -éric
>
>     [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/>
>
>     [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386
>     <https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386>
>
>     [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the
>     datatracker
>
>     -- 
>
>     Robert Moskowitz
>
>     Owner
>
>     HTT Consulting
>
>     C:      248-219-2059
>
>     F:      248-968-2824
>
>     E: mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com <mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
>     There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter
>     who gets the credit
>
>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/19/21 9:44 AM, Eric Vyncke
      (evyncke) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:0651C536-61F4-4B95-A187-EC8F7BFD058D@cisco.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Bob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thank you for your
            reply. I took some time to review the points. Look for
            EVY2&gt; below but at first sight, this looks really good to
            me now. Of course, Roman and Ben will have a final say.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">About Ekr’s comment, I
            am reading your latest email sent minutes ago, and I am
            still unclear where, in the text, it is shown that FS is not
            achievable.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    1.2 (and 1.2.1) cover it.  the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPUs
    are reasonably able to handle.<br>
    <br>
    If some vendor is willing to pay the cost of BEX, it is always an
    option.  Time and battery (and code) are against vendors going that
    route (choosing BEX for FS over DEX).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:0651C536-61F4-4B95-A187-EC8F7BFD058D@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Action plan: please
            apply the changes you have proposed below, post a revised
            I-D, then on my side:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <li class="MsoListParagraph"
            style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Launching an IETF Last Call for 2 weeks (as
              written below some important changes have been made but I
              expect the LC eventless)<o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <li class="MsoListParagraph"
            style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US">Probing Ben &amp; Roman to review whether
              their DISCUSS still hold</span></li>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I am ready with the changes.  I have an ICAO call I really need to
    get ready for, then a DR appt.  After that I will submit what I have
    if no new comments.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:0651C536-61F4-4B95-A187-EC8F7BFD058D@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
          <li class="MsoListParagraph"
            style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
        </ul>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards, it seems that
            the conclusion is near ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">-éric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
              </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert
              Moskowitz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgm@htt-consult.com">&lt;rgm@htt-consult.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Monday, 18 January 2021 at 17:06<br>
              <b>To: </b>Eric Vyncke <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:evyncke@cisco.com">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>, Robert
              Moskowitz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">"draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Miika Komu
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Cc: </b>Roman Danyliw <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rdd@cert.org">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>, Gonzalo Camarillo
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>, Erik Kline
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a>, Adam Wiethuechter
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com">&lt;adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all
              draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">On 1/18/21
            9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this
              Thursday 21st</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Bob, <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">T</span>hank you for the -23 (and Adam W for
            the footwork)<span lang="EN-US"> and I understand that you
              are quite busy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Here is the
            link to the diff between -21 and -23:
            <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
            <span lang="EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG
              evaluation and the latest one)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">After the
            July 2020 IESG evaluation
            <span lang="EN-US">based </span>on -<span lang="EN-US">21</span>,
            there were a couple of points to be addressed<span
              lang="EN-US"> (with some comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]-->Roman: “Section 6.3.  Per the
            definition of IKM, when should these two different
            derivations be used?
            <span lang="EN-US">" </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt;
              indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is said
              which one to use in which case.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
                 IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material<br>
                           or<br>
                           IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying
          material<br>
          <br>
                 IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE<br>
                 IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values
          of the<br>
                               ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same
          order as<br>
                               the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))<br>
          <br>
          Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for
          the Pair-wise Key SA.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">EVY2&gt; Suggest to add
            a pointer to section 2.3 (definitions) and possibly create
            entries for the master key SA and pair-wise key SA (perhaps
            a little extreme though)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Roman
              "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
              non-blocking) about " further implementation experience
              provides better guidance" in sections 6 and 9.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt;
              this really pleads for experimental status</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C: 
          iESG Considerations<br>
          <br>
          Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">EVY2&gt; you can keep it
            the appendix, I guess this fixes Roman’s “discuss-discuss”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin on
              FOLD collisions </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt;
              IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for
          tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document. 
          Right now it is privately held by Adam and I.  If called on,
          we can find some permanent home for it.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin on
              ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt;
              still light on the ACL but the above should clear it</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">5.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin
              "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs.
              BEX"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt;
              partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be repeated
              in the security section</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
          <br>
          9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
          <br>
             Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP
          DEX<br>
             compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at
          least one of<br>
             the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device
          defined in<br>
             Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when
          both<br>
             endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Will this work?<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">EVY2&gt;  it works for
            me and hopefully for Ben as well<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">6.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin
              lack of discussion on the security consequences of
              inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          See sec 9.1<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">EVY2&gt; Indeed, Ben’s
            ballot is dated March 2020 on the revision -13. It seems to
            be fixed to me in the latest revisions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">7.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">8.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin
              "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
              keys"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          9.  Security Considerations<br>
          <br>
          ....<br>
          <br>
             *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and
          Pair-wise Key SAs<br>
                is based on the quality of the random keying material
          generated by<br>
                the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be
          a sensor<br>
                or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about
          the<br>
                quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a
          CSPRNG<br>
                SHOULD be used.<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">EVY2&gt; indeed, I
            should have detected that Ben was not using the -21 but the
            -13
          </span><span style="font-family:&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;"
            lang="EN-US">😉</span><span lang="EN-US"> Now, please expand
            CSPRNG at first use.</span><br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">9.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">10.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">  
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">Benjamin
              "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; new
              reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed
          the concern.  I did not need to go further.<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">EVY2&gt; if Ben was
            happy, then I am happy. Thank you for the information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">11.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">  
              </span></span><!--[endif]-->Ekr’s one about why forfeiting
            FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In
            an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote “it defines a set
            of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than
            other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
            question the need to dispense with FS.”<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><span lang="EN-US">EVY&gt; the
              additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a paywall
              EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive
              motivation for an IETF standards w/o FS.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into
          this.  It may be to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the
          DOI has the wrong URL.<br>
          <br>
          Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For
          all else:<br>
          <br>
          <a
            href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1</a><br>
          <br>
          So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I
          tried it on another machine that should not have my IACR
          cookies, but...<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText"
            style="margin-left:108.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
            level2 lfo1">
            <!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">      
              </span></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready
              to be approved.*** (even if big progress has been made)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">As written in November (see below), the
              situation has lingered for too long and is blocking the
              HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">*** Therefore, I request the authors for a
              revised I-D addressing the above (and noting again that a
              change to ‘experimental’ – as there are no deployed
              implementations – could probably fix all of them) before
              Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask the
              HIPSEC WG to agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the
              architecture document. ***</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          Does the above address the open items?<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">All in all, there have been a couple of
              significant changes (I_NONCE, some deleted ciphers) since
              the IETF last call (see
              <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=draft-ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
              ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not
              be a real problem.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">-éric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">From:
            Robert Moskowitz <a href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              &lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Date:
            Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">To: Eric
            Vyncke <a href="mailto:evyncke@cisco.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              &lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <a
              href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              &lt;evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>, <a
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">"hipsec@ietf.org"</a>
            <a href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
            <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"</a> <a
              href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
            Miika Komu
            <a href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Cc: Roman
            Danyliw <a href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              &lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric Rescorla <a
              href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>,
            Gonzalo Camarillo
            <a href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
            <a href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">"rene.hummen@belden.com"</a> <a
              href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              &lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>, Benjamin Kaduk <a
              href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>,
            Erik Kline
            <a href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;ek.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Subject:
            Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
            issues... before 2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I had hoped
            to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.  I am
            now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a
            couple pointers for DRIP work.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I was
            waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating
            them in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's
            questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I will have
            a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no
            duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python
            code.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I am adding
            a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">For an
            Initiator, BEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">2 PK sig
            varifications.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">1 PK sig
            generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">1 DH
            keypair generation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">1 DH secret
            derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">DEX is:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">1 DH secret
            derivation.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I have
            cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH
            keypair generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are
            big.  But I think that part belongs in an Appendix.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">So unlikely
            Friday.  But early the following week.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">On 1/12/21
            6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Two months
            after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors
            and WG.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">With the
            -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs’ DISCUSS points should
            have been addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">As far as I
            can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr’s one about why
            forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a
            reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R.
            wrote “it defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves)
            which are slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are
            w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need to dispense
            with FS.”<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">While 2
            months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the
            responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger
            anymore. I know that a -23 is in the work for weeks =&gt;
            let’s publish it in the coming days.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Else, next
            week we will need to either change the intended status to
            experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy.
            The latter does not have my preference obviously.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">From:
            Hipsec <a href="mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of "Eric
            Vyncke (evyncke)" <a
              href="mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              mailto:evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Date:
            Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">To: <a
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
              mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a> <a
              href="mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>,
            <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
            <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>,
            Robert Moskowitz
            <a href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>,
            Miika Komu
            <a href="mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Cc: Roman
            Danyliw <a href="mailto:rdd@cert.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>, Eric Rescorla <a
              href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>,
            Gonzalo Camarillo
            <a href="mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
            <a href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a> <a
              href="mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>, Benjamin Kaduk <a
              href="mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">
              mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>, Erik Kline <a
              href="mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Subject:
            [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
            issues... before 2021-Jan-13...<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Dear HIP,
            dear authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">This
            document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018
            (2.5 years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred,
            then I took over this document from Terry Manderson in March
            2019, then it went again through IESG evaluation in July
            2020 and there are still DISCUSS points to be addressed even
            after a couple of revised I-D...<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Difficult
            not to observe that this document does not progress very
            fast.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Moreover,
            this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis
            waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also
            blocking the HIP-NAT document [2].<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">After
            discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken
            the following decision: if a revised I-D addressing
            remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr’s ones is not uploaded within
            2 months (13th of January 2021), then I will request the HIP
            WG to accept the complete removal of section A.3.3 of the
            rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix)
            + the reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow
            the immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT
            documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">The HIP DEX
            authors may also select to change the intended status of the
            document to ‘experimental’ (if the HIP WG agrees) as this
            may reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Gonzalo and
            I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">-éric<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">[1] <a
              href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">[2] <a
              href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C386</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">[3] and
            possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as ‘dead’ on the
            datatracker<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Robert
            Moskowitz<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Owner<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">HTT
            Consulting<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">C:      248-219-2059<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">F:      248-968-2824<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">E:      <a
              href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:36.0pt">There's no
            limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who
            gets the credit<o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 09:33:29 -0800
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Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>,  "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,  "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>,  Adam Wiethuechter <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
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On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:29 AM Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On 1/19/21 9:44 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your reply. I took some time to review the points. Look for
> EVY2> below but at first sight, this looks really good to me now. Of
> course, Roman and Ben will have a final say.
>
>
>
> About Ekr=E2=80=99s comment, I am reading your latest email sent minutes =
ago, and
> I am still unclear where, in the text, it is shown that FS is not
> achievable.
>
>
> 1.2 (and 1.2.1) cover it.  the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPUs are
> reasonably able to handle.
>
> If some vendor is willing to pay the cost of BEX, it is always an option.
> Time and battery (and code) are against vendors going that route (choosin=
g
> BEX for FS over DEX).
>

I must say, I find this whole discussion baffling.

To recap, the original rationale for this protocol was the one Bob makes
above, namely that "the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPUs are reasonably
able to handle." However, this claim was presented without any actual
requirements for what an acceptable cost was and the protocol as sent by
the WGLC to the IESG included a wide range of cryptographic primitives,
some of which would be comparable if not slower to a forward secure
exchange with the best available algorithms (i.e., X25519)  This implies
one of three things:

1. The requirements are not known.
2. The requirements have quite a bit of headroom above a non-FS exchange
with the best available algorithms and potentially could accommodate FS.
3. The original protocol did not in fact meet the requirements.

The proper conclusion, in any case, is that we don't know whether we can
fit a FS exchange into the requirements and we won't until a proper
requirements analysis is done. Removing the NIST curves, as Bob proposes to
do, merely removes the obvious inconsistency from the specification; it
does not address the question of whether we need to abandon FS.

-Ekr




>
>
>
> Action plan: please apply the changes you have proposed below, post a
> revised I-D, then on my side:
>
>    - Launching an IETF Last Call for 2 weeks (as written below some
>    important changes have been made but I expect the LC eventless)
>    - Probing Ben & Roman to review whether their DISCUSS still hold
>
>
> I am ready with the changes.  I have an ICAO call I really need to get
> ready for, then a DR appt.  After that I will submit what I have if no ne=
w
> comments.
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> Regards, it seems that the conclusion is near ;-)
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com> <rgm@htt-consult.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 18 January 2021 at 17:06
> *To: *Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com> <evyncke@cisco.com>, Robert
> Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com> <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>,
> "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org> <hipsec@ietf.org> <hipsec@ietf.org>,
> "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu
> <miika.komu@ericsson.com> <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> *Cc: *Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla
> <ekr@rtfm.com> <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo
> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com> <rene.hummen@belden.com=
>
> <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> <kaduk@mit.edu>,
> Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com> <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Wiethuechter
> <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com> <adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/18/21 9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> TD ;LR : more work to be done, deadline this Thursday 21st
>
>
>
> Bob,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the -23 (and Adam W for the footwork) and I understand that
> you are quite busy.
>
>
>
> Here is the link to the diff between -21 and -23:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=3Ddraft-ie=
tf-hip-dex-21 (i.e.,
> the one used by July 2020 IESG evaluation and the latest one)
>
>
>
> After the July 2020 IESG evaluation based on -21, there were a couple of
> points to be addressed (with some comments of mine as EVY>):
>
> 1.       Roman: =E2=80=9CSection 6.3.  Per the definition of IKM, when sh=
ould
> these two different derivations be used? "
>
> 1.       EVY> indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is said
> which one to use in which case.
>
>
>        IKM       IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material
>                  or
>                  IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying material
>
>        IKMm      Kij | I_NONCE
>        IKMp      Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values of the
>                      ENCRYPTED_KEY parameters in the same order as
>                      the HITs with sort(HIT-I | HIT-R))
>
> Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for the
> Pair-wise Key SA.
>
>
>
> EVY2> Suggest to add a pointer to section 2.3 (definitions) and possibly
> create entries for the master key SA and pair-wise key SA (perhaps a litt=
le
> extreme though)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2.       Roman "discuss-discuss" (read this as request for reply and
> non-blocking) about " further implementation experience provides better
> guidance" in sections 6 and 9.
>
> 1.       EVY> this really pleads for experimental status
>
>
> The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:  iESG
> Considerations
>
> Perhaps I should delete it from there.
>
> EVY2> you can keep it the appendix, I guess this fixes Roman=E2=80=99s
> =E2=80=9Cdiscuss-discuss=E2=80=9D
>
> 2.
>
> 3.       Benjamin on FOLD collisions
>
> 1.       EVY> IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1
>
>
> I believe I have this covered.  We have the Python scripts for tests, but
> this is a lot of code to put into the document.  Right now it is privatel=
y
> held by Adam and I.  If called on, we can find some permanent home for it=
.
>
>
> 2.
>
> 4.       Benjamin on ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1
>
> 1.       EVY> still light on the ACL but the above should clear it
>
>
> Sec 7.1 is referenced.
>
>
> 2.
>
> 5.       Benjamin "how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs.
> BEX"
>
> 1.       EVY> partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be repeated
> in the security section
>
>
> I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):
>
> 9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX
>
>    Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees of HIP DEX
>    compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when at least one of
>    the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained device defined in
>    Section 3 of [RFC7228]).  HIP DEX MUST NOT be used when both
>    endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.
>
>
> Will this work?
>
>
>
> EVY2>  it works for me and hopefully for Ben as well
>
> 2.
>
> 6.       Benjamin lack of discussion on the security consequences of
> inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR
>
>
> See sec 9.1
>
> EVY2> Indeed, Ben=E2=80=99s ballot is dated March 2020 on the revision -1=
3. It
> seems to be fixed to me in the latest revisions.
>
>
>
> 7.
>
> 8.       Benjamin "presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
> keys"
>
>
> 9.  Security Considerations
>
> ....
>
>    *  The strength of the keys for both the Master and Pair-wise Key SAs
>       is based on the quality of the random keying material generated by
>       the Initiator and the Responder.  As either peer may be a sensor
>       or an actuator device, there is a natural concern about the
>       quality of its random number generator.  Thus at least a CSPRNG
>       SHOULD be used.
>
>
>
> EVY2> indeed, I should have detected that Ben was not using the -21 but
> the -13 =F0=9F=98=89 Now, please expand CSPRNG at first use.
>
> 9.
>
> 10.   Benjamin "usage of CMAC instead of HMAC" about KEYMAT algorithm
>
> 1.       EVY> new reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern
>
>
> Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed the
> concern.  I did not need to go further.
>
>
>
> EVY2> if Ben was happy, then I am happy. Thank you for the information.
>
>
>
> 2.
>
> 11.   Ekr=E2=80=99s one about why forfeiting FS when some algorithm could=
 do it
> in a reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote =E2=
=80=9Cit
> defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS tha=
n
> other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the ne=
ed
> to dispense with FS.=E2=80=9D
>
> 1.       EVY> the additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a paywall
> EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive motivation for an IETF
> standards w/o FS.
>
>
> Paywall?  Hmm.  I got it free.  I will have to check into this.  It may b=
e
> to some cookie I have on this system.  Or the DOI has the wrong URL.
>
> Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.  For all else:
>
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0087-1
>
> So I will change the reference.  But please check this out.  I tried it o=
n
> another machine that should not have my IACR cookies, but...
>
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> ***Bottom line, the document is not yet ready to be approved.*** (even if
> big progress has been made)
>
>
>
> As written in November (see below), the situation has lingered for too
> long and is blocking the HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
>
>
>
> *** Therefore, I request the authors for a revised I-D addressing the
> above (and noting again that a change to =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 =
=E2=80=93 as there are no
> deployed implementations =E2=80=93 could probably fix all of them) before=
 Thursday
> 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask the HIPSEC WG to agree
> removing the HIP-DEX section from the architecture document. ***
>
>
> Does the above address the open items?
>
>
>
>
> All in all, there have been a couple of significant changes (I_NONCE, som=
e
> deleted ciphers) since the IETF last call (see
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&url1=3Ddraft-ie=
tf-hip-dex-21
> ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not be a real proble=
m.
>
>
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
> <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
> Date: Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08
>
> To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com> <evyncke@cisco.com>, "Eric Vyncke
> (evyncke)" <evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> <evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.or=
g>
> <hipsec@ietf.org> <hipsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org"
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
> <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla
> <ekr@rtfm.com> <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo
> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
> "rene.hummen@belden.com" <rene.hummen@belden.com> <rene.hummen@belden.com=
>
> <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> <kaduk@mit.edu>,
> Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com> <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>
>
> I had hoped to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.  I am
> now in IACR's Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a couple pointers fo=
r
> DRIP work.
>
>
>
> I was waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating them
> in.  I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR's questions.
>
>
>
> I will have a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no
> duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python code.
>
>
>
> I am adding a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:
>
>
>
> For an Initiator, BEX is:
>
>
>
> 2 PK sig varifications.
>
> 1 PK sig generation.
>
> 1 DH keypair generation.
>
> 1 DH secret derivation.
>
>
>
> DEX is:
>
>
>
> 1 DH secret derivation.
>
>
>
> I have cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH keypair
> generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are big.  But I think tha=
t
> part belongs in an Appendix.
>
>
>
> So unlikely Friday.  But early the following week.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/12/21 6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
>
> Two months after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors an=
d
> WG.
>
>
>
> With the -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs=E2=80=99 DISCUSS points shou=
ld have
> been addressed.
>
>
>
> As far as I can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr=E2=80=99s one abo=
ut why
> forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In an
> email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote =E2=80=9Cit defines a set of para=
meters
> (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519)
> are w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need to dispense with FS.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> While 2 months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the responsible
> AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger anymore. I know that a -23
> is in the work for weeks =3D> let=E2=80=99s publish it in the coming days=
.
>
>
>
> Else, next week we will need to either change the intended status to
> experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy. The latter
> does not have my preference obviously.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Hipsec mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org <hipsec-bounces@ietf.org> on
> behalf of "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)"
> mailto:evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> <evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>
> Date: Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32
>
> To: mailto:hipsec@ietf.org <hipsec@ietf.org> mailto:hipsec@ietf.org
> <hipsec@ietf.org>, mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org> mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org
> <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz
> mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Miika Komu
> mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw mailto:rdd@cert.org <rdd@cert.org>, Eric Rescorla
> mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo
> mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,
> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <rene.hummen@belden.com>
> mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com <rene.hummen@belden.com>, Benjamin Kaduk
> mailto:kaduk@mit.edu <kaduk@mit.edu>, Erik Kline mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com
> <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
> issues... before 2021-Jan-13...
>
>
>
> Dear HIP, dear authors,
>
>
>
> This document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018 (2.5
> years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred, then I took over
> this document from Terry Manderson in March 2019, then it went again
> through IESG evaluation in July 2020 and there are still DISCUSS points t=
o
> be addressed even after a couple of revised I-D...
>
>
>
> Difficult not to observe that this document does not progress very fast.
>
>
>
> Moreover, this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis waiting
> in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also blocking the HIP-NAT
> document [2].
>
>
>
> After discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken the
> following decision: if a revised I-D addressing remaining DISCUSS points =
+
> Ekr=E2=80=99s ones is not uploaded within 2 months (13th of January 2021)=
, then I
> will request the HIP WG to accept the complete removal of section A.3.3 o=
f
> the rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix) + the
> reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow the immediate
> publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT documents.
>
>
>
> The HIP DEX authors may also select to change the intended status of the
> document to =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 (if the HIP WG agrees) as this=
 may reduce the
> security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.
>
>
>
> Gonzalo and I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/
>
> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=3DC386
>
> [3] and possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as =E2=80=98dead=E2=80=
=99 on the
> datatracker
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Robert Moskowitz
>
> Owner
>
> HTT Consulting
>
> C:      248-219-2059
>
> F:      248-968-2824
>
> E:      mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>
>
>
>
> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who get=
s
> the credit
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000c8df0d05b9443eed
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 7:29 AM Rober=
t Moskowitz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgm@htt-consult.com">rgm@htt-consult.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 1/19/21 9:44 AM, Eric Vyncke
      (evyncke) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
     =20
     =20
     =20
      <div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Bob,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thank you for your
            reply. I took some time to review the points. Look for
            EVY2&gt; below but at first sight, this looks really good to
            me now. Of course, Roman and Ben will have a final say.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">About Ekr=E2=80=99s com=
ment, I
            am reading your latest email sent minutes ago, and I am
            still unclear where, in the text, it is shown that FS is not
            achievable.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    1.2 (and 1.2.1) cover it.=C2=A0 the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPU=
s
    are reasonably able to handle.<br>
    <br>
    If some vendor is willing to pay the cost of BEX, it is always an
    option.=C2=A0 Time and battery (and code) are against vendors going tha=
t
    route (choosing BEX for FS over DEX).<br></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>I must say, I find this whole discussion baffling.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>To recap, the original rationale for this protocol was the one Bo=
b makes above, namely that &quot;the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPUs
    are reasonably able to handle.&quot; However, this claim was presented =
without any actual requirements for what an acceptable cost was and the pro=
tocol as sent by the WGLC to the IESG included a wide range of cryptographi=
c primitives, some of which would be comparable if not slower to a forward =
secure exchange with the best available algorithms (i.e., X25519)=C2=A0 Thi=
s implies one of three things:</div><div><br></div><div>1. The requirements=
 are not known.</div><div>2. The requirements have quite a bit of headroom =
above a non-FS exchange with the best available algorithms and potentially =
could accommodate FS.<br></div><div>3. The original protocol did not in fac=
t meet the requirements.</div><div><br></div><div>The proper conclusion, in=
 any case, is that we don&#39;t know whether we can fit a FS exchange into =
the requirements and we won&#39;t until a proper requirements analysis is d=
one. Removing the NIST curves, as Bob proposes to do, merely removes the ob=
vious inconsistency from the specification; it does not address the questio=
n of whether we need to abandon FS.<br></div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Action plan: please
            apply the changes you have proposed below, post a revised
            I-D, then on my side:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
          <li style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Launching an I=
ETF Last Call for 2 weeks (as
              written below some important changes have been made but I
              expect the LC eventless)<u></u><u></u></span></li>
          <li style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Probing Ben &a=
mp; Roman to review whether
              their DISCUSS still hold</span></li>
        </ul>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I am ready with the changes.=C2=A0 I have an ICAO call I really need to
    get ready for, then a DR appt.=C2=A0 After that I will submit what I ha=
ve
    if no new comments.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div>
        <ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
          <li style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></li>
        </ul>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards, it seems that
            the conclusion is near ;-)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=C3=A9ric<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
        <div style=3D"border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcol=
or;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt =
0cm 0cm">
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
              </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Robert
              Moskowitz <a href=3D"mailto:rgm@htt-consult.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">&lt;rgm@htt-consult.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Monday, 18 January 2021 at 17:06<br>
              <b>To: </b>Eric Vyncke <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>, Robert
              Moskowitz <a href=3D"mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com" target=
=3D"_blank">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&quot;hi=
psec@ietf.org&quot;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">&lt;hipsec@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">&quot;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&quot;</a>
              <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Miika Komu
              <a href=3D"mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">=
&lt;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Cc: </b>Roman Danyliw <a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">&lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric
              Rescorla <a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">&l=
t;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>, Gonzalo Camarillo
              <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_=
blank">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
              <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" target=3D"_blank">&=
quot;rene.hummen@belden.com&quot;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.=
com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>,
              Benjamin Kaduk <a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>, Erik Kline
              <a href=3D"mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;ek=
.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a>, Adam Wiethuechter
              <a href=3D"mailto:adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com" target=
=3D"_blank">&lt;adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all
              draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending issues... before
              2021-Jan-13...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></p>
        </div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt=
;margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 1/18/21
            9:12 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">TD=C2=A0;LR=C2=
=A0: more work to be done, deadline this
              Thursday 21st</span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Bob, <u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">T</span>hank y=
ou for the -23 (and Adam W for
            the footwork)<span lang=3D"EN-US"> and I understand that you
              are quite busy.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Here is the
            link to the diff between -21 and -23:
            <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-d=
ex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-21" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-=
ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
            <span lang=3D"EN-US">(i.e., the one used by July 2020 IESG
              evaluation and the latest one)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">After the
            July 2020 IESG evaluation
            <span lang=3D"EN-US">based </span>on -<span lang=3D"EN-US">21</=
span>,
            there were a couple of points to be addressed<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"> (with some comments of mine as EVY&gt;)</span>:<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span>Roman: =E2=80=9CSection 6.3.=C2=A0 Per the
            definition of IKM, when should these two different
            derivations be used?
            <span lang=3D"EN-US">&quot; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt;
              indeed, IKMm and IKMp are both defined but nothing is said
              which one to use in which case.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMm for Master Key SA Input keying material<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMp for Pair-wise Key SA Input keying
          material<br>
          <br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMm=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Kij | I_NONCE<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IKMp=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Kij | I_NONCE | (concatenated random values
          of the<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ENCRYPTED_KEY par=
ameters in the same
          order as<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the HITs with sor=
t(HIT-I | HIT-R))<br>
          <br>
          Seems clear that IKMm is for the Master Key SA and IKMp is for
          the Pair-wise Key SA.<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY2&gt; Suggest to add
            a pointer to section 2.3 (definitions) and possibly create
            entries for the master key SA and pair-wise key SA (perhaps
            a little extreme though)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Roman
              &quot;discuss-discuss&quot; (read this as request for reply a=
nd
              non-blocking) about &quot; further implementation experience
              provides better guidance&quot; in sections 6 and 9.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt;
              this really pleads for experimental status</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          The only place this text exists anymore is in Appendix C:=C2=A0
          iESG Considerations<br>
          <br>
          Perhaps I should delete it from there.<br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY2&gt; you can keep i=
t
            the appendix, I guess this fixes Roman=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cdiscu=
ss-discuss=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>3.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin on
              FOLD collisions </span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt;
              IMHO addressed in the new section 3.2.1</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          I believe I have this covered.=C2=A0 We have the Python scripts f=
or
          tests, but this is a lot of code to put into the document.=C2=A0
          Right now it is privately held by Adam and I.=C2=A0 If called on,
          we can find some permanent home for it.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>4.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin on
              ACL to counter FOLD collisions in section 3.2.1</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt;
              still light on the ACL but the above should clear it</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          Sec 7.1 is referenced.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>5.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin
              &quot;how is it known that the peer should be using DEX vs.
              BEX&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt;
              partially addressed in section 1.2 but should be repeated
              in the security section</span><u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          I can create a sec 9.1 (pushing down the current 9.1):<br>
          <br>
          9.1 Caution on using HIP DEX rather than HIP BEX<br>
          <br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0 Due to the substantially reduced security guarantees=
 of HIP
          DEX<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0 compared to HIP BEX, HIP DEX MUST only be used when =
at
          least one of<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0 the two endpoints is a class 0 or 1 constrained devi=
ce
          defined in<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0 Section 3 of [RFC7228]).=C2=A0 HIP DEX MUST NOT be u=
sed when
          both<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0 endpoints are class 2 devices or unconstrained.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Will this work?<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY2&gt; =C2=A0it works=
 for
            me and hopefully for Ben as well<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>6.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin
              lack of discussion on the security consequences of
              inadvertent counter reuse in AES-CTR</span><u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          See sec 9.1<br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY2&gt; Indeed, Ben=E2=
=80=99s
            ballot is dated March 2020 on the revision -13. It seems to
            be fixed to me in the latest revisions.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>7.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>8.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin
              &quot;presence of a CSPRNG in order to obtain secure session
              keys&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          9.=C2=A0 Security Considerations<br>
          <br>
          ....<br>
          <br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 The strength of the keys for both the Master=
 and
          Pair-wise Key SAs<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is based on the quality of the ran=
dom keying material
          generated by<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the Initiator and the Responder.=
=C2=A0 As either peer may be
          a sensor<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or an actuator device, there is a =
natural concern about
          the<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 quality of its random number gener=
ator.=C2=A0 Thus at least a
          CSPRNG<br>
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SHOULD be used.<br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY2&gt; indeed, I
            should have detected that Ben was not using the -21 but the
            -13
          </span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;" =
lang=3D"EN-US">=F0=9F=98=89</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Now, please expand
            CSPRNG at first use.</span><br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>9.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>10.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Benjamin
              &quot;usage of CMAC instead of HMAC&quot; about KEYMAT algori=
thm</span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; new
              reference to NIST papers seems to address this concern</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          Ben did agree in an email that the SP800-56C and 108 addressed
          the concern.=C2=A0 I did not need to go further.<br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY2&gt; if Ben was
            happy, then I am happy. Thank you for the information.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
            <span>11.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span>Ekr=E2=80=99s one about why forfeiting
            FS when some algorithm could do it in a reasonable time. In
            an email to authors and ADs, Eric R. wrote =E2=80=9Cit defines =
a set
            of parameters (the NIST curves) which are slower w/o FS than
            other parameters (X25519) are w/ FS. This fact calls into
            question the need to dispense with FS.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></=
p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>1.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">EVY&gt; the
              additional section 1.2.1 and the reference to a paywall
              EfficientECC reference do not offer a conclusive
              motivation for an IETF standards w/o FS.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          Paywall?=C2=A0 Hmm.=C2=A0 I got it free.=C2=A0 I will have to che=
ck into
          this.=C2=A0 It may be to some cookie I have on this system.=C2=A0=
 Or the
          DOI has the wrong URL.<br>
          <br>
          Ah, that URL works for me because I am an IACR member.=C2=A0 For
          all else:<br>
          <br>
          <a href=3D"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-015-0=
087-1" target=3D"_blank">https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10623-0=
15-0087-1</a><br>
          <br>
          So I will change the reference.=C2=A0 But please check this out.=
=C2=A0 I
          tried it on another machine that should not have my IACR
          cookies, but...<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:108pt">
            <span>2.<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
              </span></span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">***Bottom line=
, the document is not yet ready
              to be approved.*** (even if big progress has been made)</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As written in =
November (see below), the
              situation has lingered for too long and is blocking the
              HIP-NAT and rfc4423-bis documents.
            </span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">*** Therefore,=
 I request the authors for a
              revised I-D addressing the above (and noting again that a
              change to =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 as there a=
re no deployed
              implementations =E2=80=93 could probably fix all of them) bef=
ore
              Thursday 21st of January midnight UTC else I will ask the
              HIPSEC WG to agree removing the HIP-DEX section from the
              architecture document. ***</span><u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          Does the above address the open items?<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">All in all, th=
ere have been a couple of
              significant changes (I_NONCE, some deleted ciphers) since
              the IETF last call (see
              <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip=
-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-21" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-23&amp;url1=3Ddraft-=
ietf-hip-dex-21</a>
              ), so, another IETF Last Call is required but should not
              be a real problem.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=C3=A9ric</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">From:
            Robert Moskowitz <a href=3D"mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
              &lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Date:
            Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 16:08<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">To: Eric
            Vyncke <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">
              &lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt;</a>, &quot;Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&qu=
ot; <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">
              &lt;evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;</a>, <a href=3D"=
mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&quot;hipsec@ietf.org&quot;</a>
            <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;hipsec=
@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
            <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">
              &quot;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org&quot;</a> <a href=3D"mailto=
:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf=
.org&gt;</a>,
            Miika Komu
            <a href=3D"mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">&l=
t;miika.komu@ericsson.com&gt;</a><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Cc: Roman
            Danyliw <a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_blank">
              &lt;rdd@cert.org&gt;</a>, Eric Rescorla <a href=3D"mailto:ekr=
@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a>,
            Gonzalo Camarillo
            <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">&lt;gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,
            <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" target=3D"_blank">&qu=
ot;rene.hummen@belden.com&quot;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">
              &lt;rene.hummen@belden.com&gt;</a>, Benjamin Kaduk <a href=3D=
"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">&lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;</a>,
            Erik Kline
            <a href=3D"mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;ek.i=
etf@gmail.com&gt;</a><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Subject:
            Re: [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
            issues... before 2021-Jan-13...<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I had hoped
            to get -23 out end of last week, and missed my cutoff.=C2=A0 I =
am
            now in IACR&#39;s Real World Crypto, where I have gotten a
            couple pointers for DRIP work.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I was
            waiting for two analyzes that I got Jan 4, and incorporating
            them in.=C2=A0 I believe these SHOULD address much of EKR&#39;s
            questions.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I will have
            a run of 1M DEX random HIs to HITs generated with no
            duplicates that I add in an Appendix along with the Python
            code.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I am adding
            a BEX/DEX crypto cost into 1.2, probably 1.2.1:<u></u><u></u></=
p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">For an
            Initiator, BEX is:<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">2 PK sig
            varifications.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">1 PK sig
            generation.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">1 DH
            keypair generation.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">1 DH secret
            derivation.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">DEX is:<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">1 DH secret
            derivation.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I have
            cycles for these and a paper to reference, except ECDH
            keypair generation, on an 8 bit process and the numbers are
            big.=C2=A0 But I think that part belongs in an Appendix.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">So unlikely
            Friday.=C2=A0 But early the following week.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 1/12/21
            6:19 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Two months
            after the email below, I sending a kind reminder to authors
            and WG.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">With the
            -22, a lot of (if not all ) SEC ADs=E2=80=99 DISCUSS points sho=
uld
            have been addressed.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">As far as I
            can tell, the other remaining issue was Ekr=E2=80=99s one about=
 why
            forfeiting FS when some algorithm could do it in a
            reasonable time. In an email to authors and ADs, Eric R.
            wrote =E2=80=9Cit defines a set of parameters (the NIST curves)
            which are slower w/o FS than other parameters (X25519) are
            w/ FS. This fact calls into question the need to dispense
            with FS.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">While 2
            months ago I put a deadline for tomorrow, I (as the
            responsible AD) am flexible of course but we cannot linger
            anymore. I know that a -23 is in the work for weeks =3D&gt;
            let=E2=80=99s publish it in the coming days.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Else, next
            week we will need to either change the intended status to
            experimental or declare the document dead by lack of energy.
            The latter does not have my preference obviously.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">-=C3=A9ric<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">From:
            Hipsec <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">
              mailto:hipsec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of &quot;Eric
            Vyncke (evyncke)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke=3D40cisco.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
              mailto:evyncke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Date:
            Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:32<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">To: <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">
              mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">mailto:hipsec@ietf.org</a>,
            <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>
            <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>,
            Robert Moskowitz
            <a href=3D"mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
ailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com</a>,
            Miika Komu
            <a href=3D"mailto:miika.komu@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
ilto:miika.komu@ericsson.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Cc: Roman
            Danyliw <a href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" target=3D"_blank">
              mailto:rdd@cert.org</a>, Eric Rescorla <a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:ekr@rtfm.com</a>,
            Gonzalo Camarillo
            <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>,
            <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" target=3D"_blank">mai=
lto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
              mailto:rene.hummen@belden.com</a>, Benjamin Kaduk <a href=3D"=
mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">
              mailto:kaduk@mit.edu</a>, Erik Kline <a href=3D"mailto:ek.iet=
f@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></=
p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Subject:
            [Hipsec] Need to close all draft-ietf-hip-dex-21 pending
            issues... before 2021-Jan-13...<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Dear HIP,
            dear authors,<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">This
            document was requested for publication [1] in February 2018
            (2.5 years ago), then its IESG evaluation has been deferred,
            then I took over this document from Terry Manderson in March
            2019, then it went again through IESG evaluation in July
            2020 and there are still DISCUSS points to be addressed even
            after a couple of revised I-D...<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Difficult
            not to observe that this document does not progress very
            fast.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Moreover,
            this document is a normative reference for rfc4423-bis
            waiting in the RFC editor queue since March 2019... So, also
            blocking the HIP-NAT document [2].<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">After
            discussion with the HIP chair, Gonzalo in cc, we have taken
            the following decision: if a revised I-D addressing
            remaining DISCUSS points + Ekr=E2=80=99s ones is not uploaded w=
ithin
            2 months (13th of January 2021), then I will request the HIP
            WG to accept the complete removal of section A.3.3 of the
            rfc4423-bis document (1 page about HIP-DEX in the appendix)
            + the reference to the HIP-DEX document [3]. This will allow
            the immediate publication of the rfc4423-bis and HIP-NAT
            documents.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">The HIP DEX
            authors may also select to change the intended status of the
            document to =E2=80=98experimental=E2=80=99 (if the HIP WG agree=
s) as this
            may reduce the security requirements by the SEC AD and Ekr.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Gonzalo and
            I are still hoping to get a revised HIP-DEX shortly,<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">-=C3=A9ric<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">[1] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/history/</a> <u></u><u>=
</u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">[2] <a href=3D"https://www.rfc-edit=
or.org/cluster_info.php?cid=3DC386" target=3D"_blank">
              https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=3DC386</a><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">[3] and
            possibly I will set the state of HIP-DEX as =E2=80=98dead=E2=80=
=99 on the
            datatracker<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Robert
            Moskowitz<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Owner<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">HTT
            Consulting<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">C:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0248-219-2059<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">F:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0248-968-2824<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">E:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:rgm=
@labs.htt-consult.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p style=3D"margin-left:36pt">There&#39;s no
            limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn&#39;t matter who
            gets the credit<u></u><u></u></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><br>
          <br>
          <u></u><u></u></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000c8df0d05b9443eed--


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Subject: [Hipsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF.

        Title           : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)
        Authors         : Robert Moskowitz
                          Rene Hummen
                          Miika Komu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt
	Pages           : 64
	Date            : 2021-01-19

Abstract:
   This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
   DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) and
   specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
   protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
   cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
   cryptographic hash functions.

   The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
   constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected to
   be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
   Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
   protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
   Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
   prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
   keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
   IEEE 802.15.4 networks.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-24


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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More fine-tuning.

Please look at the diffs.

Please note, that I have not been able to find any energy consumption 
numbers to go along with the cycles for the EdDSA signing and 
verifying.  I do not believe it is trivial; not from conversations I 
have had.  Also I am not sure you can simply convert cycles to wall 
time.  This was my experience when working on ZWave. For whatever 
reason, wall time was higher than simple cycle counting predicted.

Happy reading!  Or at least diffs.  Maybe diff -21 with -24...

On 1/19/21 6:37 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Host Identity Protocol WG of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)
>          Authors         : Robert Moskowitz
>                            Rene Hummen
>                            Miika Komu
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt
> 	Pages           : 64
> 	Date            : 2021-01-19
>
> Abstract:
>     This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
>     DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) and
>     specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
>     protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
>     cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
>     cryptographic hash functions.
>
>     The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
>     constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected to
>     be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
>     Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
>     protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
>     Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
>     prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
>     keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
>     IEEE 802.15.4 networks.
>
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/
>
> There is also an HTML version available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.html
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-hip-dex-24
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hipsec mailing list
> Hipsec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec


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Subject: [Hipsec] Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Host Identity Protocol WG (hip) to
consider the following document: - 'HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)'
  <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2021-02-03. Exceptionally, comments may
be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
   DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) and
   specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
   protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
   cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
   cryptographic hash functions.

   The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
   constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected to
   be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
   Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
   protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
   Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
   prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
   keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
   IEEE 802.15.4 networks.





The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/



No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.


The document contains these normative downward references.
See RFC 3967 for additional information: 
    rfc6261: Encrypted Signaling Transport Modes for the Host Identity Protocol (Experimental - IETF stream)





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From nobody Wed Jan 20 16:05:41 2021
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Much improved with use of Xoodyak for a lightweight crypto.

NIST's LWC has another year to run.  I would like it if Xoodyak is the 
selection, but...

So this is in part to generally specify use of SHA-3 derived functions, 
EdDSA/x25519, and how a LWC really shakes things up!

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for 
draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt
Date: 	Wed, 20 Jan 2021 15:47:11 -0800
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Stuart W. Card <stu.card@axenterprize.com>, Adam Wiethuechter 
<adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>, Robert Moskowitz 
<rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Stuart Card <stu.card@axenterprize.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt
has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto
Revision: 08
Title: New Cryptographic Algorithms for HIP
Document date: 2021-01-20
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 16
URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto/
Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.html
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08

Abstract:
This document provides new cryptographic algorithms to be used with
HIP. The Edwards Elliptic Curve and the Keccak sponge functions are
the main focus. The HIP parameters and processing instructions
impacted by these algorithms are defined.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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    Much improved with use of Xoodyak for a lightweight crypto.<br>
    <br>
    NIST's LWC has another year to run.  I would like it if Xoodyak is
    the selection, but...<br>
    <br>
    So this is in part to generally specify use of SHA-3 derived
    functions, EdDSA/x25519, and how a LWC really shakes things up!<br>
    <br>
    -------- Forwarded Message --------
    <table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
      cellpadding="0" border="0">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Subject: </th>
          <td>New Version Notification for
            draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
          <td>Wed, 20 Jan 2021 15:47:11 -0800</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
          <td>Stuart W. Card <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stu.card@axenterprize.com">&lt;stu.card@axenterprize.com&gt;</a>, Adam
            Wiethuechter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com">&lt;adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com&gt;</a>,
            Robert Moskowitz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a>, Stuart
            Card <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stu.card@axenterprize.com">&lt;stu.card@axenterprize.com&gt;</a></td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt<br>
    has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to
    the<br>
    IETF repository.<br>
    <br>
    Name: draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto<br>
    Revision: 08<br>
    Title: New Cryptographic Algorithms for HIP<br>
    Document date: 2021-01-20<br>
    Group: Individual Submission<br>
    Pages: 16<br>
    URL:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.txt</a><br>
    Status:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto/</a><br>
    Html:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.html">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08.html</a><br>
    Htmlized:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08</a><br>
    Diff:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-08</a><br>
    <br>
    Abstract:<br>
    This document provides new cryptographic algorithms to be used with<br>
    HIP. The Edwards Elliptic Curve and the Keccak sponge functions are<br>
    the main focus. The HIP parameters and processing instructions<br>
    impacted by these algorithms are defined.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
    submission<br>
    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br>
    <br>
    The IETF Secretariat<br>
    <br>
    <br>
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Some fine tuning of use of Xoodyak based on comments from the Keccak team.



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for 
draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt
Date: 	Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:34:48 -0800
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Stuart W. Card <stu.card@axenterprize.com>, Adam Wiethuechter 
<adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com>, Robert Moskowitz 
<rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Stuart Card <stu.card@axenterprize.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt
has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto
Revision: 09
Title: New Cryptographic Algorithms for HIP
Document date: 2021-01-28
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 16
URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto/
Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.html
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09

Abstract:
This document provides new cryptographic algorithms to be used with
HIP. The Edwards Elliptic Curve and the Keccak sponge functions are
the main focus. The HIP parameters and processing instructions
impacted by these algorithms are defined.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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    Some fine tuning of use of Xoodyak based on comments from the Keccak
    team.<br>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      <br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
        cellpadding="0" border="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:34:48 -0800</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>Stuart W. Card <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stu.card@axenterprize.com">&lt;stu.card@axenterprize.com&gt;</a>, Adam
              Wiethuechter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com">&lt;adam.wiethuechter@axenterprize.com&gt;</a>,
              Robert Moskowitz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com">&lt;rgm@labs.htt-consult.com&gt;</a>, Stuart
              Card <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stu.card@axenterprize.com">&lt;stu.card@axenterprize.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt<br>
      has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to
      the<br>
      IETF repository.<br>
      <br>
      Name: draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto<br>
      Revision: 09<br>
      Title: New Cryptographic Algorithms for HIP<br>
      Document date: 2021-01-28<br>
      Group: Individual Submission<br>
      Pages: 16<br>
      URL:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.txt</a><br>
      Status:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto/</a><br>
      Html:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.html">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09.html</a><br>
      Htmlized:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09</a><br>
      Diff:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto-09</a><br>
      <br>
      Abstract:<br>
      This document provides new cryptographic algorithms to be used
      with<br>
      HIP. The Edwards Elliptic Curve and the Keccak sponge functions
      are<br>
      the main focus. The HIP parameters and processing instructions<br>
      impacted by these algorithms are defined.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
      submission<br>
      until the htmlized version and diff are available at
      tools.ietf.org.<br>
      <br>
      The IETF Secretariat<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

--------------3A32B9CABB3FC0AF716FC0CE--

