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From: Jeff Ahrenholz <j.ahrenholz@tempered.io>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, "hip-chairs@ietf.org" <hip-chairs@ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)) to Proposed Standard
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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 18:42:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)) to Proposed Standard
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)) to Proposed Standard
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I reviewed the latest version and think it is ready for publication.

br Andrei

On 1/20/2021 4:09 PM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> There have been several of *significant* changes  since the IETF last call in November 2019 on the -11 revision, so, as the responsible AD, I am asking the IETF community for 3rd review on the latest revision -24.
>
> The changes include at least: applicability statement, use of the FOLD function, I_NONCE, input keying material for master/pair-wise key generation, security section, some deleted DH groups and ciphers.
>
> For your convenience the diff between the two versions: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-24%26url1%3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-11&amp;data=04%7C01%7Candrei.gurtov%40liu.se%7C370565e71f474343976108d8bd55aebf%7C913f18ec7f264c5fa816784fe9a58edd%7C0%7C0%7C637467522989981278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=lSa0YQ9%2BtdOFPnLhq5sHEAkFHlYDHQ6eRMv3lRGSFhg%3D&amp;reserved=0 
>
> Thank you in advance for your valuable comments before the 3rd of February 2021,
>
> -éric vyncke
>
> PS: thank you for the previous reviewers, your comments have helped the authors to improve the document. Thank you as well to the authors for listening to those comments.
>
> ﻿-----Original Message-----
> From: <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> on behalf of The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
> Reply-To: "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 20 January 2021 at 15:48
> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, "gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "hip-chairs@ietf.org" <hip-chairs@ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>
> Subject: Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)) to Proposed Standard
>
>
>     The IESG has received a request from the Host Identity Protocol WG (hip) to
>     consider the following document: - 'HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)'
>       <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> as Proposed Standard
>
>     The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
>     comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
>     last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2021-02-03. Exceptionally, comments may
>     be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
>     of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
>     Abstract
>
>
>        This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange (HIP
>        DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) and
>        specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
>        protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
>        cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
>        cryptographic hash functions.
>
>        The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or memory-
>        constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected to
>        be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
>        Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper layer
>        protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
>        Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
>        prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as a
>        keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., for
>        IEEE 802.15.4 networks.
>
>
>
>
>
>     The file can be obtained via
>     https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-hip-dex%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7Candrei.gurtov%40liu.se%7C370565e71f474343976108d8bd55aebf%7C913f18ec7f264c5fa816784fe9a58edd%7C0%7C0%7C637467522989981278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=gdpptEioiBmuD05oC43afzYEIbxF9DmntVdDFlM3coI%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>
>     No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>
>
>     The document contains these normative downward references.
>     See RFC 3967 for additional information: 
>         rfc6261: Encrypted Signaling Transport Modes for the Host Identity Protocol (Experimental - IETF stream)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hipsec mailing list
> Hipsec@ietf.org
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fhipsec&amp;data=04%7C01%7Candrei.gurtov%40liu.se%7C370565e71f474343976108d8bd55aebf%7C913f18ec7f264c5fa816784fe9a58edd%7C0%7C0%7C637467522989981278%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=jTLGcfXwfHhcrf0sSLvnqJW4avH5sNdYj0vhuVaJl%2Bo%3D&amp;reserved=0


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 10:52:11 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBN4jT-+cMW=bVQ8tkTLVQ-9vtHCtRfpKaShO67q2+UByQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, "hip-chairs@ietf.org" <hip-chairs@ietf.org>,  "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)) to Proposed Standard
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I do not believe this document should be published in the standards track.
We should be favoring FS where possible, and the evidence that it is
prohibitive in this case is scant at best.

To recap, the original rationale for this protocol was the one Bob made in
a recent message, namely that "the cost of FS is beyond what 8-bit CPUs are
reasonably able to handle." However, this claim was presented without any
actual requirements for what an acceptable cost was and the protocol as
sent by the WGLC to the IESG included a wide range of cryptographic
primitives (e.g., sec160k1  to P-384), some of which would be comparable if
not slower to a forward secure exchange with the best available algorithms
(i.e., X25519)  This implies one of three things:

1. The requirements are not known.
2. The requirements have quite a bit of headroom above a non-FS exchange
with the best available algorithms and potentially could accommodate FS.
3. The original protocol as submitted to the IESG did not in fact meet the
requirements.

The proper conclusion, in any case, is that we don't know whether we can
fit a FS exchange into the requirements and we won't until a proper
requirements analysis is done. Removing the NIST curves merely removes the
obvious inconsistency from the specification; it does not address the
question of whether we need to abandon FS. Until we have done so, this
protocol should not be standardized.

-Ekr

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 7:10 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke=3D
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> There have been several of *significant* changes  since the IETF last cal=
l
> in November 2019 on the -11 revision, so, as the responsible AD, I am
> asking the IETF community for 3rd review on the latest revision -24.
>
> The changes include at least: applicability statement, use of the FOLD
> function, I_NONCE, input keying material for master/pair-wise key
> generation, security section, some deleted DH groups and ciphers.
>
> For your convenience the diff between the two versions:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-24&url1=3Ddraft-ie=
tf-hip-dex-11
>
> Thank you in advance for your valuable comments before the 3rd of Februar=
y
> 2021,
>
> -=C3=A9ric vyncke
>
> PS: thank you for the previous reviewers, your comments have helped the
> authors to improve the document. Thank you as well to the authors for
> listening to those comments.
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> on behalf of The IESG <
> iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
> Reply-To: "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
> Date: Wednesday, 20 January 2021 at 15:48
> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "
> draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org>, Eric Vyncke <
> evyncke@cisco.com>, "gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" <
> gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, "hip-chairs@ietf.org" <
> hip-chairs@ietf.org>, "hipsec@ietf.org" <hipsec@ietf.org>
> Subject: Last Call: <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> (HIP Diet EXchange (DEX))
> to Proposed Standard
>
>
>     The IESG has received a request from the Host Identity Protocol WG
> (hip) to
>     consider the following document: - 'HIP Diet EXchange (DEX)'
>       <draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt> as Proposed Standard
>
>     The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final
>     comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
>     last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2021-02-03. Exceptionally,
> comments may
>     be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
> beginning
>     of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
>     Abstract
>
>
>        This document specifies the Host Identity Protocol Diet EXchange
> (HIP
>        DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Version 2 (HIPv2) an=
d
>        specifically developed for use on low end processors.  The HIP DEX
>        protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of the employed
>        cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key signatures and
>        cryptographic hash functions.
>
>        The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for computation or
> memory-
>        constrained sensor/actuator devices.  Like HIPv2, it is expected t=
o
>        be used together with a suitable security protocol such as the
>        Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the protection of upper
> layer
>        protocol data.  Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does not support Forward
>        Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices where FS is
>        prohibitively expensive.  In addition, HIP DEX can also be used as=
 a
>        keying mechanism for security primitives at the MAC layer, e.g., f=
or
>        IEEE 802.15.4 networks.
>
>
>
>
>
>     The file can be obtained via
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-dex/
>
>
>
>     No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>
>
>     The document contains these normative downward references.
>     See RFC 3967 for additional information:
>         rfc6261: Encrypted Signaling Transport Modes for the Host Identit=
y
> Protocol (Experimental - IETF stream)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> last-call mailing list
> last-call@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
>

--000000000000dd5d1105ba731737
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I do not believe this document should be published in=
 the standards track. We should be favoring FS where possible, and the evid=
ence that it is prohibitive in this case is scant at best.<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>To recap, the original rationale for this protocol was the one=
 Bob=20
made in a recent message, namely that &quot;the cost of FS is beyond what 8=
-bit CPUs
    are reasonably able to handle.&quot; However, this claim was presented=
=20
without any actual requirements for what an acceptable cost was and the=20
protocol as sent by the WGLC to the IESG included a wide range of=20
cryptographic primitives (e.g., sec160k1=C2=A0 to P-384), some of which wou=
ld be comparable if not=20
slower to a forward secure exchange with the best available algorithms=20
(i.e., X25519)=C2=A0 This implies one of three things:</div><div><br></div>=
<div>1. The requirements are not known.</div><div>2.
 The requirements have quite a bit of headroom above a non-FS exchange=20
with the best available algorithms and potentially could accommodate FS.<br=
></div><div>3. The original protocol as submitted to the IESG did not in fa=
ct meet the requirements.</div><div><br></div><div>The
 proper conclusion, in any case, is that we don&#39;t know whether we can=
=20
fit a FS exchange into the requirements and we won&#39;t until a proper=20
requirements analysis is done. Removing the NIST curves merely removes the =
obvious inconsistency from the specification;
 it does not address the question of whether we need to abandon FS. Until w=
e have done so, this protocol should not be standardized.<br></div><div><br=
></div><div>-Ekr</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 7:10 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke)=
 &lt;evyncke=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There have been several of *significant* chan=
ges=C2=A0 since the IETF last call in November 2019 on the -11 revision, so=
, as the responsible AD, I am asking the IETF community for 3rd review on t=
he latest revision -24.<br>
<br>
The changes include at least: applicability statement, use of the FOLD func=
tion, I_NONCE, input keying material for master/pair-wise key generation, s=
ecurity section, some deleted DH groups and ciphers.<br>
<br>
For your convenience the diff between the two versions: <a href=3D"https://=
www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-24&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip=
-dex-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?=
url2=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-24&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-hip-dex-11</a> <br>
<br>
Thank you in advance for your valuable comments before the 3rd of February =
2021,<br>
<br>
-=C3=A9ric vyncke<br>
<br>
PS: thank you for the previous reviewers, your comments have helped the aut=
hors to improve the document. Thank you as well to the authors for listenin=
g to those comments.<br>
<br>
=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----<br>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg-secretary@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">iesg=
-secretary@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ies=
g-secretary@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">iesg-secretary@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Reply-To: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:last-call@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">las=
t-call@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:last-call@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">last-call@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Wednesday, 20 January 2021 at 15:48<br>
To: IETF-Announce &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">ietf-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-hip-dex@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-hip-dex@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Eric Vyncke &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">evyncke@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonz=
alo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:hip-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">hip-chairs@ie=
tf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hip-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">hip-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">hipsec@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hipsec@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">hipsec@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Last Call: &lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt&gt; (HIP Diet EXchange (D=
EX)) to Proposed Standard<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IESG has received a request from the Host Identity Protoc=
ol WG (hip) to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 consider the following document: - &#39;HIP Diet EXchange (DE=
X)&#39;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;draft-ietf-hip-dex-24.txt&gt; as Proposed Standard=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and =
solicits final<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to =
the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:last-call@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">last-=
call@ietf.org</a> mailing lists by 2021-02-03. Exceptionally, comments may<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be sent to <a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>iesg@ietf.org</a> instead. In either case, please retain the beginning<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Abstract<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the Host Identity Protoc=
ol Diet EXchange (HIP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DEX), a variant of the Host Identity Protocol Ve=
rsion 2 (HIPv2) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specifically developed for use on low end proces=
sors.=C2=A0 The HIP DEX<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol design aims at reducing the overhead of=
 the employed<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cryptographic primitives by omitting public-key =
signatures and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cryptographic hash functions.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The HIP DEX protocol is primarily designed for c=
omputation or memory-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0constrained sensor/actuator devices.=C2=A0 Like =
HIPv2, it is expected to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be used together with a suitable security protoc=
ol such as the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Encapsulated Security Payload (ESP) for the prot=
ection of upper layer<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol data.=C2=A0 Unlike HIPv2, HIP DEX does =
not support Forward<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Secrecy (FS), and MUST only be used on devices w=
here FS is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prohibitively expensive.=C2=A0 In addition, HIP =
DEX can also be used as a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keying mechanism for security primitives at the =
MAC layer, e.g., for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 802.15.4 networks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The file can be obtained via<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hip-de=
x/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-ietf-hip-dex/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.=
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document contains these normative downward references.<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 See RFC 3967 for additional information: <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rfc6261: Encrypted Signaling Transport Modes fo=
r the Host Identity Protocol (Experimental - IETF stream)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
last-call mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:last-call@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">last-call@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call</a><b=
r>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000dd5d1105ba731737--


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Subject: [Hipsec] implementation update on draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto etc
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Hej

Final reports from students from fall 2020 on HIPv2 code update

• draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake

• draft-moskowitz-hip-new-crypto

• draft-moskowitz-hip-hierarchical-hit

and DRIP usecase implementation (using OpenHIP) are available here

https://www.ida.liu.se/~TDDE21/info/TDDE21_HIPv2_finalreport_2020.pdf

https://www.ida.liu.se/~TDDE21/info/TDDE21_DRIP_finalreport_2020.pdf

There are a few theses ongoing in Spring 2021 term as well.

br Andrei


