From nobody Fri Apr 1 01:49:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26BA12D1C2 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 01:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLACK=1.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sLdumZkwjg5N for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 01:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xenon21.um.es (xenon21.um.es [155.54.212.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC9012D1C0 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 01:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xenon21.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8590E3FD29; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:49:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by antispam in UMU at xenon21.um.es Received: from xenon21.um.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (xenon21.um.es [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id FvLKoAXT1OvH; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:49:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.3.0.52] (unknown [104.152.46.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: dan.garcia@um.es) by xenon21.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5BCD3FD28; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:49:06 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dan_Garc=C3=ADa_Carrillo?= In-Reply-To: <17BCDCE1-9CB7-4182-9730-7635DE24FCC5@ackl.io> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:48:57 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1F7AF099-AEF0-4775-A5FA-EC7504DD258F@um.es> References: <908F3B66-1537-458E-8196-0617BB7000DE@ackl.io> <05EEA684-3CF2-42CA-AA40-08D4EEE11924@um.es> <17BCDCE1-9CB7-4182-9730-7635DE24FCC5@ackl.io> To: Alexander Pelov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dan_Garc=C3=ADa_Carrillo?= , diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl, lp-wan@ietf.org, Alexandre Petrescu , Thomas Watteyne , Donald Eastlake Subject: Re: [lp-wan] gap analysis (Security and LP-WAN section) X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 08:49:24 -0000 Hi Alexander,=20 =46rom what I have been reading about 802.11ah, there are certain = modifications with respect to 802.11ai (fast initial link setup) in the = scheduling of the authentications, for they are expected to be massive. = But I have not read that there is any modification for the = authentications methods used with respect to the 802.11, and I assume = they are the same as the ones that are used in 802.11.=20 For know 802.11ah and 802.11ai are not finished. According to the = timelines they should be finished this year.=20 In any case, it would be interesting to know if there is an intention = to incorporate some modification to the authentication methods used. Maybe someone can shed some light on this area? Best Regards, Dan.=20 > El 22 mar 2016, a las 17:49, Alexander Pelov escribi=C3=B3: >=20 > Thanks, Dan! Great reading! >=20 > Do you have an idea how is approached the question of "long validity = of the secure session" in 802.11ah? Any read you could recommend? >=20 > Best, > Alexander >=20 >=20 >> Le 22 mars 2016 =C3=A0 15:34, Dan Garc=C3=ADa Carrillo = a =C3=A9crit : >>=20 >> Hi Alexander,=20 >>=20 >> Thanks for the link about Sigfox, it was an interesting reading.=20 >>=20 >> Regarding the other technologies I would include the following: >>=20 >> 802.11 ah >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> Security Implications:=20 >> 1 - Efficient >> 2 - Long validity of the secure session >> 3 - Avoid involvement of on-line and remote network devices=20 >> 4 - Should not reduce flexibility of (re)deployment over lifetime >> 5 - Should be carried out in operational network (=E2=80=9Chot = swap=E2=80=9D) >>=20 >> Use Cases characteristics: >> - Devices from many vendors (Federation) * >> - Easy Configuration and maintenance (least human interaction = possible) >>=20 >> * Without further elaboration this might be in contraposition with = implication 3. >>=20 >> I do not see how they propose to address these points yet. Although = they are, I think, reasonable. >>=20 >>=20 >> 802.15.9 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> Defines: >> - Message exchange framework based on Information Elements to = transport (KMP) datagrams. >> - Guidelines for the use of some existing KMPs with the IEEE Std = 802.15 and IEEE Std 802.15.7.=20 >> - They do not create a new KMP. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Sigfox >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> - Provide integrity of the communications.=20 >> - Encryption at application level >> - Future integration of a secure element to store key material.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Best Regards, >> Dan.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> El 15 mar 2016, a las 16:18, Alexander Pelov escribi=C3=B3= : >>>=20 >>> Hi Dan, >>>=20 >>> Thanks a bunch for doing this great survey! We should definitely = include it in the gap analysis document.=20 >>>=20 >>> There is an ongoing discussion on SigFox security and I think there = will be more information that will be shortly made available: = http://j.mp/1nL4daj=20 >>>=20 >>> I have no information on the 802.15.4k nor 802.15.4g. The latter was = quite discussed on the mailing list. Also, I would be curious to add the = IEEE 802.15.4ah to the comparison list. Maybe something related to IEEE = 802.15.9?=20 >>>=20 >>> Best, >>> Alexander >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Le 14 mars 2016 =C3=A0 19:08, Dan Garc=C3=ADa Carrillo = a =C3=A9crit : >>>>=20 >>>> Hello all:=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I am a Ph.D. student working in the area of security, = authentication, authorization and key management in IoT, and I am = interested in the specific case of LP-WAN. I did an initial scouting of = the current state, and how the different technologies deal with these = issues. >>>>=20 >>>> Please, see my conclusions below: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> DASH7 >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>=20 >>>> o They define 2 keys for specific users (root, user)=20 >>>> o There is also a network key. >>>>=20 >>>>> Not specified how these keys are obtained. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> LoRaWAN >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>=20 >>>> o Device Activation >>>>=20 >>>> Over the Air Activation (when an end-device is deployed or reset):=20= >>>> - =46rom the Root-specific-app-key or AppKey to derive NwkSKey and = AppSKey with the information exchanged in the join procedure. >>>>=20 >>>> Personalization (join procedure is by-passed) >>>> - NwkSKey and AppSKey are directly stored into the end-device. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> 802.15.4k >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>=20 >>>> - MLME (Medium access control (MAC) sublayer management entity) = association is defined. >>>>=20 >>>> - A TRLE PAN relay association with optional security. >>>>=20 >>>> No mention of acquiring keys to secure any of these processes.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> 802.15.4g >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> No mention of a joining or association process. I assume that this = is not unexpected since this document deals with "Physical Layer (PHY) = Specifications"=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sigfox >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> I only found some presentation documents and in one of them they = say the provide: >>>> Identification and authentication. Each device contains a unique ID = and secure key. >>>>=20 >>>> There is no mention of how the keys are set in the devices.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> RPMA >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The same here, I did not found technical specifications, only = presentations.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> They say they use security algorithms and provides for mutual = device authentication, message authentication, message confidentiality, = and secure over the air firmware upgrades. >>>>=20 >>>> No mention about how the keys are set in the devices. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Qowisio >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The same here, I did not found technical specifications, only = presentations. (any pointer?) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Any comments? Do you think it would be worth to include it in the = gap analysis (security section) ? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Dan Garcia.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> lp-wan mailing list >>>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> lp-wan mailing list >>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 4 10:03:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B78712D7B7 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2IbDaStv8Z43 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B72A12D783 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id s79so76296146oie.1 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IZ8DWXHQSlK6ZG4+qk+kmRMs+9TSpRxJ9pe4tqnqm04=; b=tm3L9gObzJZwjuhXiCAO+F4qAAdiaOgSBWaoYbeZWQSZ1mwD9tmvAfIHgaRr3YRnS1 TH1aYz1lZ118fVLFv16Z88y9V0t5TWH13BGbkdkwWrUipoMvNhIy15eF3JtdOZHToIop WzSJGfDgLNwn+Ehoi+a7mvCiy9Bf91tcuBHZ67pp3wSHZQT3NbvVWF5Y2Sc2yytYfv2e NdVNaNdSILZF2VCb04xb8ChGN4ft3ZpuVDUMYikBMsbHQINRCn8gWVUNcG4zpIe9kq0G BE7sJErhreDpLomLTaHPlgJY49wCkAwPzcCHjcLFgThlmxq0bEE0YshV+MAUDEBZG9um 3d0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IZ8DWXHQSlK6ZG4+qk+kmRMs+9TSpRxJ9pe4tqnqm04=; b=ZA4LtluYjUxHxkCiWe4xaT6VK9jzyOq1vNN7qqjmJf5nyYre6ybct0Gwz5FrP7hQs0 HIjj7WiEtrDPe6IpkBlckm/IEJNWuxi+g5ewBUTZ+fC5DUSTlbtD8DIRxXgwGoflDmGJ TFr/9MCnYR9jYdhJaVDwqmIIfOiTUd+Wcg8doKV/ywpVwHW+Pas8hStMePFu8oOy3IGd 6QnCT/X0mIcjg6uaIynL/ApbTl9TQYeKR4N84DjtRZ0Q9hNgrN6NchG+NbXL3B1mmZHx 4b9J1ExCEe44DgOsdBUMdBNDWTkjVQ3xhPiDoOf7O5dfgQaQU8fGmTalu1QFj8vHwhH1 rMOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJAsptmEOm0fkeONT9Os4emY6qNmUYZlPoXh2+YKGq7nW0PFxmAnj6pYf7MlRD4w+v+bQK/KANCw3T9sg== X-Received: by 10.157.2.69 with SMTP id 63mr5648493otb.170.1459789425067; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 10:03:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.22.250 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 10:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:03:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: lp-wan@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Seeking a note taker and jabber scribe X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 17:03:49 -0000 Please consider volunteering to take notes or by the jabber scribe for the lpwan BoF this afternoon. Thanks, Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com From nobody Mon Apr 4 13:44:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3D212D89F for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.928 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.928 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7EGs-RF7Ywy for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 098F512D899 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,442,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="172585408" Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com ([209.85.217.179]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 04 Apr 2016 22:44:12 +0200 Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id qe11so178878700lbc.3 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLrIR9eL0tm8N6917hhHSTyipSDRStbJztd9dEURbO4KuIWU0S/uz5oVYAs1Ld5DujHrtpyq1t410IbEA== X-Received: by 10.112.151.207 with SMTP id us15mr3521594lbb.28.1459802651709; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:44:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.149.140 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 17:43:51 -0300 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: lp-wan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b8744da7f56a2052faeca9e Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Etherpad LPWAN BoF X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:44:18 -0000 --047d7b8744da7f56a2052faeca9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Etherpad at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-95-lpwan if you want to participate, please add your name in the upper right hand corner -- _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --047d7b8744da7f56a2052faeca9e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Etherpad at=C2=A0http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ie= tf-95-lpwan

if you want to participate, please add y= our name in the upper right hand corner


--
_____= __________________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD=
Re= search Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linea= r Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6T= iSCH

_______________________________________
--047d7b8744da7f56a2052faeca9e-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 15:12:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0126D12D8D6 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0nrIzhosIVUi for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 661B712D8DD for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id u34MC8rB005961 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 00:12:08 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E1A2F2072E0 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 00:13:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EBE207087 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 00:13:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.121] ([132.166.84.121]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id u34MC6QJ024925 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 00:12:07 +0200 To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <5702E6B5.1050901@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:12:05 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000302020903020102060303" Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] IP LP-WAN capable routers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 22:12:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000302020903020102060303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello LP-WANers, I am interested in the use of IP-over-LP-WAN because we need an IP router which has an LP-WAN interface on one side and a 6Lo interface on the other side. This is to be able to do remote software update to manage multiple 6Lo sensors via a single LP-WAN connection. The topology considered by LP-WAN seems to be star: O O O + O Legend: O is a LP-WAN device O O whereas what we need is: o O O oO + O Legend: o is a 6LO device connected to a LP-WAN device o O O Alex --------------000302020903020102060303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello LP-WANers,

I am interested in the use of IP-over-LP-WAN because we need an IP router which has an LP-WAN interface on one side and a 6Lo interface on the other side.

This is to be able to do remote software update to manage multiple 6Lo sensors via a single LP-WAN connection.

The topology considered by LP-WAN seems to be star:

          
        O   O
     O    +    O       Legend: O is a LP-WAN device
        O   O

whereas what we need is:


   o     O   O
     oO    +    O      Legend: o is a 6LO device connected to a LP-WAN device
   o     O   O

Alex
 --------------000302020903020102060303-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 16:14:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8947F12D878 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:14:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iXTe46dVPZIv for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x234.google.com (mail-ob0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61D6612D83D for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x234.google.com with SMTP id j9so62008133obd.3 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 16:14:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ejOOcpsjaeNaoRY/hVh5NL6EyN1NS7np6mD4HFttGKQ=; b=P+0qDkVVn1IdMEVJtMv2rHUxwfUz1F4TgKb6j7+EgxUvC9b+l1g4yxfuiVOMlEvuP1 qUVjGx7GTIZ4ItL9pEuvkMXfbcCvovsOZ3JzOzfgaKI380pddap0glPKmDAnXjLXmz50 zDwcS7izb2DHN2rEw/VkiyLQQKn0aMacwtakDbNxx6UsWep33l8PWK05itFqGAUzYS97 c2ElotEZPxhdPebro29uCY7xxmpp30wcx5+kjKIDzVxCxPQ+3Ax9eLIgCm8GDhREx4Od 5k3AinNxYcACwgYcDPjzoMgR2o8Y57latC8pvaB0ZDaNmkwtgL0FXFq+sePMsYYAQqmS DUzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ejOOcpsjaeNaoRY/hVh5NL6EyN1NS7np6mD4HFttGKQ=; b=K5h7M8XBCB5J2GN4+mCNjgbIQgN94bc2JUoVS4hg42kcY05kQvQim9BP7Oteth8C8A jnxtxYmrvPueqphNKLyMGsrPDYjlIuIrwb//r+0KcqvimDMsarqryf5hOr6jzPM42E7D avSxpTHcbTPjL2E0dY7VCFINQvEoGxAXlq6LRoVZv2c9bH+O9uXmSHTadKArbK96fgGV Jph9S89X8XYqZT/O3NLda7jkDyuvQI3JnjAX7QEI79+5nQMuD02V1Yatang64ogCxF9f 3UzJMfNw8gc5VtLaTu4R5ouytwLqBu+K7Rl9F+jswC+25EczQ2wyiKWZvwLmQM1N4279 HS9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLF0SPujjMlZuTrwdoVERxP0o8H1VjlQmfq3V8WM8LZkLMDEJ1/mqdfFPxZ/zk8Qntf7pFnt+kyQZymSA== X-Received: by 10.60.140.168 with SMTP id rh8mr12456494oeb.9.1459811693829; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 16:14:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.22.250 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:14:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:14:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Thomas Watteyne Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Etherpad LPWAN BoF X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 23:14:56 -0000 Thomas, Thanks for taking notes !! Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Thomas Watteyne wrote: > Etherpad at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-95-lpwan > > if you want to participate, please add your name in the upper right hand > corner > > > -- > _______________________________________ > > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH > > www.thomaswatteyne.com > _______________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Tue Apr 5 07:26:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B14D12D19E for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:26:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3P39agCs8Xp7 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.bupt.edu.cn (mx1.bupt.edu.cn [211.68.68.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD5F12D11B for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.bupt.edu.cn (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.bupt.edu.cn (AnyMacro(G7)) with SMTP id 0C44E19F374 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:25:57 +0800 (HKT) Received: from WeiGengyuPC (unknown [221.222.220.88]) by mx1.bupt.edu.cn (AnyMacro(G7)) with ESMTPA id 3326819F36F; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:25:56 +0800 (HKT) Message-ID: <7C82E053AEBD4F69B902698AF340008C@WeiGengyuPC> From: "weigengyu" To: , "Alexandre Petrescu" References: <5702E6B5.1050901@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5702E6B5.1050901@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:26:01 +0800 Organization: BUPT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E7_01D18F8A.228CB2C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] IP LP-WAN capable routers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 14:26:02 -0000 һ MIME ʽĶ෽ʼ ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01D18F8A.228CB2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, At the LP-WAN interface, one possible solution is =20 1 keep a mapping beween each IPv6 address and the node=E2=80=99s L2 = address plus one byte; 2 have dummy network layer (IPv6) and transport layer (UDP);=20 3 Put CoAP directly over L2frame. It is similar to application protocol over data link layer protocol. And such a means was used in communication over some low rate wired = links. The difference is each node of LP-WAN has an IPv6 address which is = tightly related to its L2address plus one-byte.=20 Regards,=20 Gengyu WEI Network Technology Center School of Computer=20 Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications From: Alexandre Petrescu=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:12 AM To: lp-wan@ietf.org=20 Subject: [lp-wan] IP LP-WAN capable routers Hello LP-WANers, I am interested in the use of IP-over-LP-WAN because we need an IP = router which has an LP-WAN interface on one side and a 6Lo interface on = the other side. This is to be able to do remote software update to manage multiple 6Lo = sensors via a single LP-WAN connection. The topology considered by LP-WAN seems to be star: =20 O O O + O Legend: O is a LP-WAN device O O whereas what we need is: o O O oO + O Legend: o is a 6LO device connected to a LP-WAN = device o O O Alex -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01D18F8A.228CB2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
At the LP-WAN interface, one possible solution is 
1 keep a mapping beween each IPv6 address and the node=E2=80=99s L2 = address plus=20 one byte;
2 have dummy network layer (IPv6) and transport layer (UDP);
3 Put CoAP directly over L2frame.
 
It is similar to application protocol over data link layer = protocol.
And such a means was used in communication over some low rate wired = links.
The difference is each node of LP-WAN has an IPv6 address which is = tightly=20 related to its L2address plus one-byte.
 
Regards,
 
Gengyu=20 WEI
Network Technology Center
School of Computer
Beijing = University of=20 Posts and Telecommunications
 
From: Alexandre Petrescu =
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:12 AM
Subject: [lp-wan] IP LP-WAN capable = routers
 
Hello LP-WANers,

I am interested in the use = of=20 IP-over-LP-WAN because we need an IP router which has an LP-WAN = interface on one=20 side and a 6Lo interface on the other side.

This is to be able to = do=20 remote software update to manage multiple 6Lo sensors via a single = LP-WAN=20 connection.

The topology considered by LP-WAN seems to be=20 star:

          = =20
        O  =20 O
     O    +   =20 O       Legend: O is a LP-WAN=20 device
        O  =20 O

whereas what we need is:


  =20 o     O   O
    =20 oO    +    O      = Legend:=20 o is a 6LO device connected to a LP-WAN device
  =20 o     O   O

Alex

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing=20 list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01D18F8A.228CB2C0-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 13:52:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E118412D846 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWD23cjvXciA for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4D8412D86F for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id u35Kqfb2030024 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:52:41 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 0EE38203DB7 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:53:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E73203CB3 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:53:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.80] ([132.166.84.80]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id u35Kqdw5011989 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:52:40 +0200 To: lp-wan@ietf.org References: <5702E6B5.1050901@gmail.com> <7C82E053AEBD4F69B902698AF340008C@WeiGengyuPC> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <57042596.2070203@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:52:38 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7C82E053AEBD4F69B902698AF340008C@WeiGengyuPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] IP LP-WAN capable routers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 20:52:45 -0000 Hi, Le 05/04/2016 11:26, weigengyu a crit : > Hi, > At the LP-WAN interface, one possible solution is > 1 keep a mapping beween each IPv6 address and the nodes L2 address plus > one byte; YEs, that is a Neighbor Cache. What is the one byte supplementary dedicated to? > 2 have dummy network layer (IPv6) and transport layer (UDP); I propose to have network layer IPv6. In the gateway UDP may not be needed, because the gateway may just forward packets. > 3 Put CoAP directly over L2frame. That is possible. Another possibility is to put CoAP on IP packets which sit on L2frame. > It is similar to application protocol over data link layer protocol. > And such a means was used in communication over some low rate wired links. > The difference is each node of LP-WAN has an IPv6 address which is > tightly related to its L2address plus one-byte. I think we should have all 40bytes of an IPv6 header, not just one byte. Alex > Regards, > Gengyu WEI > Network Technology Center > School of Computer > Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications > *From:* Alexandre Petrescu > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:12 AM > *To:* lp-wan@ietf.org > *Subject:* [lp-wan] IP LP-WAN capable routers > Hello LP-WANers, > > I am interested in the use of IP-over-LP-WAN because we need an IP > router which has an LP-WAN interface on one side and a 6Lo interface on > the other side. > > This is to be able to do remote software update to manage multiple 6Lo > sensors via a single LP-WAN connection. > > The topology considered by LP-WAN seems to be star: > > > O O > O + O Legend: O is a LP-WAN device > O O > > whereas what we need is: > > > o O O > oO + O Legend: o is a 6LO device connected to a LP-WAN device > o O O > > Alex > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com Thu Apr 7 08:55:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E381112D1ED for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:55:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sigfox.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NesxzNpHcf2N for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18C4212D1AF for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id l6so31588874wml.1 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sigfox.com; s=google; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=y8eP5qlt79nCo61j64HEoVh0xJ2uNrODBc4K9W3hzlw=; b=hvtY1MsTAjTs0frP0Hmju2UlsPGDkoyyxLcM1qznHkVSNPozg1NHN8iU2bPD5ovMpM hGnm4bKzkHDozBnqlSYk5k8ETrQlNuurmE5zhwgm/DVSqPSCyPhn5HGlVafyq7wHr+dd tMnF9SShY1cih0xZuEBmBjp+VbVxQmIj9uFZ0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=y8eP5qlt79nCo61j64HEoVh0xJ2uNrODBc4K9W3hzlw=; b=JP4W9v5lsy/TwH+kEPo6pGqVgk6dEC/ZY4igG3NcSMW0Y8josgAtCPn9JTQ6uv0KKv ThbDd16WwBy5yPYDEJlbMwtLm6fgK1BmvZN8od+ah//ZdHantOd6LLTxB0wFx0PeCIsR lwF2/OuXXinYH5Nu6yTFMjZJm1pQoYmkuVkvk4ItDsVH6HHXpbXhMqLx3t4cHLrNwzUc LaMjDF2WdFkxXSXE66U1TXfp2xCLChhuMWqmb7b2nqFOh1xYCa+Og3LEr2kKxOmyrdsw EPLTJWCaMTiAdW9WxAcH/556HMcva/7Lzt00TiScOwOXBOVJGnqVYAdgPirBjqApsHe1 JCcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKgL/LHSWf/nZSnE6cjaM8JIv60X1qNSmy4MEQ+xgRj5v2aCkjy7VtA2qFv/55PBaRieqHqRTbf/nF5zh9G MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.28.51.15 with SMTP id z15mr32028249wmz.32.1460044553602; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.167.196 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 08:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:55:53 +0200 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?QmVub8OudCBQT05TQVJEIChTSUdGT1gp?= To: lp-wan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114444b8f962cc052fe71c1a Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 16:14:31 -0000 --001a114444b8f962cc052fe71c1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA systems. I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to this group. In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently available on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology. As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send me some hints. Looking forward to meeting you all. BR B.PONSARD --=20 Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD Director of Standardization Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 www.sigfox.com --001a114444b8f962cc052fe71c1a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi a= ll,

<= /span>
I'm B= enoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX.
I've been told that IETF h= as started an unformal group dealing with LPWA systems.
I can tell you that my com= pany will be more than happy to contribute to this group.

In the mean time, I've rev= iewed the technology document, currently available on the docbox, and I'= ;ve made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology.

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don= 9;t know exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work = plan. So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send = me some hints.

Looking forward to meeting you all.

BR

B.PONSARD

--
Beno=C3=AEt = PONSARD
Director of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
= www.sigfox.com
<= br>
--001a114444b8f962cc052fe71c1a-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 10:19:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9E512D1A3 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:19:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PvsRKfLqqC0F for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AACB412D0BD for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter43-d.gandi.net (mfilter43-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.174]) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB33841C09D; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:19:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter43-d.gandi.net Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.197]) by mfilter43-d.gandi.net (mfilter43-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sKmAAa-rp2oL; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:19:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 31.133.161.186 Received: from dhcp-a1ba.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-a1ba.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.161.186]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CC6C541C096; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 19:19:25 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9CDC80AC-57CC-4EF6-8845-C5015FDE62EC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:19:23 -0300 Message-Id: <1411AF98-0DAD-49F2-B810-94F553BEDCDC@ackl.io> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?=22Beno=C3=AEt_PONSARD_=28SIGFOX=29=22?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:19:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9CDC80AC-57CC-4EF6-8845-C5015FDE62EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Beno=C3=AEt, Thanks for your interest in our work and for updating the table !=20 Your contribution is very welcome ! Indeed, during our meeting on Monday = (LP-WAN BOF), one of the main questions we were concerned with was if a = company of your size and importance in LP-WANs is interested on the = topics we=E2=80=99ll be addressing at the IETF. For the moment we are in the process of forming the group, so there is = no formal chairman. The question we were asking was - are there problems = we can solve at the IETF, can we solve them in reasonable time, and is = there interest from LP-WAN operators and technology providers. My personal feeling is that we answered positively to the first two = questions during the BOF, and your mail serves as a confirmation to the = third question. We=E2=80=99ll discuss the working plan on the mailing list in the = following weeks. I personally would expect for us to focus on several = well defined problems (IP/UDP/CoAP compression to 0 bytes, security, = management, scalable architecture) and have first drafts on the = solutions by the next IETF in July. Welcome on board! Best, Alexander > Le 7 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 12:55, Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) = a =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. > I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with = LPWA systems. > I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute = to this group. >=20 > In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently = available on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's = technology. >=20 > As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find = the next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very = grateful if the chairman of this group could send me some hints. >=20 > Looking forward to meeting you all. >=20 > BR >=20 > B.PONSARD >=20 > --=20 > Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD > Director of Standardization > Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 > www.sigfox.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --Apple-Mail=_9CDC80AC-57CC-4EF6-8845-C5015FDE62EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hello Beno=C3=AEt,

Thanks for your interest in our work = and for updating the table ! 

Your contribution is very welcome ! = Indeed, during our meeting on Monday (LP-WAN BOF), one of the main = questions we were concerned with was if a company of your size and = importance in LP-WANs is interested on the topics we=E2=80=99ll be = addressing at the IETF.

For the moment we are in the process of forming the group, so = there is no formal chairman. The question we were asking was - are there = problems we can solve at the IETF, can we solve them in reasonable time, = and is there interest from LP-WAN operators and technology = providers.

My = personal feeling is that we answered positively to the first two = questions during the BOF, and your mail serves as a confirmation to the = third question.

We=E2=80=99ll discuss the working plan on the mailing list in = the following weeks. I personally would expect for us to focus on = several well defined problems (IP/UDP/CoAP compression to 0 bytes, = security, management, scalable architecture) and have first drafts on = the solutions by the next IETF in July.

Welcome on board!

Best,
Alexander



Le 7 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 12:55, = Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Hi = all,

I'm = Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX.
I've = been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA = systems.
I can = tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to this = group.

In the = mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently available on = the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's = technology.

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know = exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work plan. = So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send me = some hints.

Looking forward to meeting you all.

BR

B.PONSARD

--
Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD
Director of = Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com

_______________________________________________
lp-wan = mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

= --Apple-Mail=_9CDC80AC-57CC-4EF6-8845-C5015FDE62EC-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 10:23:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C0B12D531 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:23:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JPWTzm9HODGL for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DDA312D537 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6743; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1460049787; x=1461259387; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=hl3ryYqiuryz/DVOPI49lyvtqPABfluTmhcJg1sxK2E=; b=XXXC3dtrMXFGBphqZZCIFnlZi69Nda6TPRQbzZLcQEgszH3CFp+uEo2H +gxqhCtmntdxzxu61POkekW2fnxS+dFZomeuNq/JvtOfLLWktIe/2AHeU ydx7dSSV2wGdxHfFZp375Eg2Xx4hsp/8qI4OeqY/k5HkhRO0B3QVzlGjT 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AcAgBRlgZX/4ENJK1cgmtMU321aoRzA?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BcxcBCYVsAoFFOBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQgEBBAEBAUYlCxACAQg/BycLFBECBA4?= =?us-ascii?q?FiCcOwVcBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVhiGBdYJWhGwRgm2CKwWOBoUTh?= =?us-ascii?q?GsBjguPDo8jAR4BAUKDZ2yIcwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,449,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="256872025" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Apr 2016 17:23:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u37HN5a0007995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:23:05 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:23:04 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:23:05 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Beno=EEt_PONSARD_=28SIGFOX=29_?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution Thread-Index: AQHRkOiUJB3ZixKdBUiJK2Zr5C34UZ9+wnn8 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:23:05 +0000 Message-ID: <98F63C56-30DD-40C4-8FA4-3CA85ADA2E4A@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_98F63C5630DD40C48FA43CA85ADA2E4Aciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:23:09 -0000 --_000_98F63C5630DD40C48FA43CA85ADA2E4Aciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Same here Benoit! One of the outcomes of the meeting Monday was the reckoning that the group = should focus on 1 to 3 representative technologies, such as SIGFOX, provid= ed that the entity in charge of defining that technology would be willing t= o collaborate with the IETF. Though work can and should start yesterday on this ML, the real standardiza= tion of protocols and/or definition of best practices will only happen with= a WG. We need to understand if the LPWAN work requires a separate group an= d, if so convince the IETF to let that happen. The almost necessary step is what we call a WG forming BoF, which would occ= ur in July in Berlin during IETF 96. Would you attend there and help us mak= e the case? Expressing your perception of the value for SIGFOX to integrate Internet te= chnology and showing your willingness to contribute and adopt would make a = difference. Regards, Pascal Le 7 avr. 2016 =E0 13:14, Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) > a =E9crit : Hi all, I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA sy= stems. I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to thi= s group. In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently availabl= e on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology. As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find the = next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very grateful i= f the chairman of this group could send me some hints. Looking forward to meeting you all. BR B.PONSARD -- Beno=EEt PONSARD Director of Standardization Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 www.sigfox.com _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --_000_98F63C5630DD40C48FA43CA85ADA2E4Aciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Same here Benoit!

One of the outcomes of the meeting Monday was the reckoning that the group = should focus on 1 to 3 representative  technologies, such as SIGFOX, p= rovided that the entity in charge of defining that technology would be will= ing to collaborate with the IETF.

Though work can and should start yesterday o= n this ML, the real standardization of protocols and/or definition of best = practices will only happen with a WG. We need to understand if the LPWAN wo= rk requires a separate group and, if so convince the IETF to let that happen.

The almost necessary step is what we call a = WG forming BoF, which would occur in July in Berlin during IETF 96. Would y= ou attend there and help us make the case? 

Expressing your perception of the value for = SIGFOX to integrate Internet technology and showing your willingness to con= tribute and adopt would make a difference.

Regards,

Pascal

Le 7 avr. 2016 =E0 13:14, Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com> a =E9crit = :

Hi all,

I'm Benoit PONSARD, d= irector fo standardization at SIGFOX.
I've been told that I= ETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA systems.
I can tell you that m= y company will be more than happy to contribute to this group.

In the mean time, I'v= e reviewed the technology document, currently available on the docbox, and = I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology.

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't kn= ow exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work plan. = So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send me som= e hints.

Looking forward to meeting you all.

BR

B.PONSARD

--
Beno=EEt PONSARD
Director of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
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Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4f6fbd13-0dfb-4150-85c3-d43260c04309 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR06MB1763 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:28:36 -0000 --_000_BLUPR06MB176307B4BE7E4987840B636CFE900BLUPR06MB1763namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQWxleA0KDQpJUC9VRFAgY2FuJ3QgYmUgY29tcHJlc3NlZCB0byAwIGJ5dGUgYnV0IGNlcnRh aW5seSB0byBvbmUgYml0IHdoaWNoIGNhbiBiZSBjb21iaW5lZCB0byBDb0FQIGNvbXByZXNzaW9u IHRvIGFyY2hpdmUgYSBzaW5nbGUgYnl0ZSBvdmVyaGVhZC4NClRoaXMgY29tcHJlc3Npb24gc2No ZW1lIHNoYWxsIHN0YXkgYSBjb21wcmVzc2lvbiwgYWxsIGVsZW1lbnRzIG9mIElQL1VEUC9Db0FQ 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xch-aln-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:33:40 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 12:33:41 -0500 From: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Beno=EEt_PONSARD_=28SIGFOX=29_?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution Thread-Index: AQHRkOiUa9zW0IIxMUKFQF9hRJOoFZ9/FkqA//+NpYA= Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:33:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <98F63C56-30DD-40C4-8FA4-3CA85ADA2E4A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <98F63C56-30DD-40C4-8FA4-3CA85ADA2E4A@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.180.199] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D32BE76520F4F0sgundaveciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:33:46 -0000 --_000_D32BE76520F4F0sgundaveciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit - I assumed the network architecture for SIGFOX is a closed system. = It fill be good if you can do a presentation at the next IETF on the curren= t backend network functions, security model and the interworking with the A= pplication functions. It will be good to understand the commonalities betwe= en these different LPWAN technologies and the potential steps to realizing = "IP" adoption. Sri From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > Date: Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 10:23 AM To: "Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)" > Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution Same here Benoit! One of the outcomes of the meeting Monday was the reckoning that the group = should focus on 1 to 3 representative technologies, such as SIGFOX, provid= ed that the entity in charge of defining that technology would be willing t= o collaborate with the IETF. Though work can and should start yesterday on this ML, the real standardiza= tion of protocols and/or definition of best practices will only happen with= a WG. We need to understand if the LPWAN work requires a separate group an= d, if so convince the IETF to let that happen. The almost necessary step is what we call a WG forming BoF, which would occ= ur in July in Berlin during IETF 96. Would you attend there and help us mak= e the case? Expressing your perception of the value for SIGFOX to integrate Internet te= chnology and showing your willingness to contribute and adopt would make a = difference. Regards, Pascal Le 7 avr. 2016 =E0 13:14, Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) > a =E9crit : Hi all, I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA sy= stems. I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to thi= s group. In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently availabl= e on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology. As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find the = next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very grateful i= f the chairman of this group could send me some hints. Looking forward to meeting you all. BR B.PONSARD -- Beno=EEt PONSARD Director of Standardization Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 www.sigfox.com _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --_000_D32BE76520F4F0sgundaveciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Benoit - I assumed the network architecture for SIGFOX is a closed sys= tem. It fill be good if you can do a presentation at the next IETF on the c= urrent backend network functions, security model and the interworking with = the Application functions. It will be good to understand the commonalities between these different LPWAN tech= nologies and the potential steps to realizing “IP” adoption.

Sri


From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "= ;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <= pthubert@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 10= :23 AM
To: "Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)= " <benoit.ponsard@sigf= ox.com>
Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" <= lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contri= bution

Same here Benoit!

One of the outcomes of the meeting Monday was the reckoning that the group = should focus on 1 to 3 representative  technologies, such as SIGFOX, p= rovided that the entity in charge of defining that technology would be will= ing to collaborate with the IETF.

Though work can and should start yesterday o= n this ML, the real standardization of protocols and/or definition of best = practices will only happen with a WG. We need to understand if the LPWAN wo= rk requires a separate group and, if so convince the IETF to let that happen.

The almost necessary step is what we call a = WG forming BoF, which would occur in July in Berlin during IETF 96. Would y= ou attend there and help us make the case? 

Expressing your perception of the value for = SIGFOX to integrate Internet technology and showing your willingness to con= tribute and adopt would make a difference.

Regards,

Pascal

Le 7 avr. 2016 =E0 13:14, Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com> a =E9crit = :

Hi all,

I'm Benoit PONSARD, d= irector fo standardization at SIGFOX.
I've been told that I= ETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA systems.
I can tell you that m= y company will be more than happy to contribute to this group.

In the mean time, I'v= e reviewed the technology document, currently available on the docbox, and = I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology.

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't kn= ow exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work plan. = So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send me som= e hints.

Looking forward to meeting you all.

BR

B.PONSARD

--
Beno=EEt PONSARD
Director of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
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It is very interesting your point about header compression, the idea we were discussing was the way to eliminate the learning part Ana On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Michel Veillette < Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote: > Hi Alex > > > > IP/UDP can't be compressed to 0 byte but certainly to one bit which can b= e > combined to CoAP compression to archive a single byte overhead. > > This compression scheme shall stay a compression, all elements of > IP/UDP/CoAP shall be supported if needed. > > > > Michel > > > > *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Alexander > Pelov > *Sent:* April-07-16 2:19 PM > *To:* "Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)" > *Cc:* lp-wan@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution > > > > Hello Beno=C3=AEt, > > > > Thanks for your interest in our work and for updating the table ! > > > > Your contribution is very welcome ! Indeed, during our meeting on Monday > (LP-WAN BOF), one of the main questions we were concerned with was if a > company of your size and importance in LP-WANs is interested on the topic= s > we=E2=80=99ll be addressing at the IETF. > > > > For the moment we are in the process of forming the group, so there is no > formal chairman. The question we were asking was - are there problems we > can solve at the IETF, can we solve them in reasonable time, and is there > interest from LP-WAN operators and technology providers. > > > > My personal feeling is that we answered positively to the first two > questions during the BOF, and your mail serves as a confirmation to the > third question. > > > > We=E2=80=99ll discuss the working plan on the mailing list in the followi= ng weeks. > I personally would expect for us to focus on several well defined problem= s > (IP/UDP/CoAP compression to 0 bytes, security, management, scalable > architecture) and have first drafts on the solutions by the next IETF in > July. > > > > Welcome on board! > > > > Best, > > Alexander > > > > > > > > Le 7 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 12:55, Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) > a =C3=A9crit : > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. > > I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA > systems. > > I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to > this group. > > > > In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently > available on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's > technology. > > > > As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find th= e > next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very grateful > if the chairman of this group could send me some hints. > > > > Looking forward to meeting you all. > > > > BR > > > > B.PONSARD > > > > -- > > Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD > Director of Standardization > Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 > www.sigfox.com > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --047d7bdc0ae8639562052fe87c24 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

I have separate this subject to = a new message, in order to follow the different discussions.

=
It is very interesting your point about header compression, the = idea we were discussing was the way to eliminate the learning part

Ana

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Michel Veillette &= lt;M= ichel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:

Hi Alex

=C2=A0

IP/UDP can't be compressed to 0 b= yte but certainly to one bit which can be combined to CoAP compression to a= rchive a single byte overhead.

This compression scheme shall stay a = compression, all elements of IP/UDP/CoAP shall be supported if needed.

=C2=A0

Michel

=C2=A0

From: = lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Pelov
Sent: April-07-16 2:19 PM
To: "Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)" <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com&g= t;
Cc: lp-wan@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution

=C2=A0

Hello Beno=C3=AEt,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your interest in our work and for updatin= g the table !=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Your contribution is very welcome ! Indeed, during o= ur meeting on Monday (LP-WAN BOF), one of the main questions we were concer= ned with was if a company of your size and importance in LP-WANs is interes= ted on the topics we=E2=80=99ll be addressing at the IETF.

=C2=A0

For the moment we are in the process of forming the = group, so there is no formal chairman. The question we were asking was - ar= e there problems we can solve at the IETF, can we solve them in reasonable = time, and is there interest from LP-WAN operators and technology providers.

=C2=A0

My personal feeling is that we answered positively t= o the first two questions during the BOF, and your mail serves as a confirm= ation to the third question.

=C2=A0

We=E2=80=99ll discuss the working plan on the mailin= g list in the following weeks. I personally would expect for us to focus on= several well defined problems (IP/UDP/CoAP compression to 0 bytes, securit= y, management, scalable architecture) and have first drafts on the solutions by the next IETF in July.=

=C2=A0

Welcome on board!

=C2=A0

Best,

Alexander

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Le 7 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 12:55, Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SI= GFOX) <be= noit.ponsard@sigfox.com> a =C3=A9crit :

=C2=A0

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization a= t SIGFOX.<= u>

I've been told that IETF has started an unformal = group dealing with LPWA systems.

I can tell you that my company will be more than happ= y to contribute to this group.

=C2=A0

In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology do= cument, currently available on the docbox, and I've made some changes r= egarding SIGFOX's technology.

=C2=A0

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't = know exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work plan= . So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send me s= ome hints.

=C2=A0

Looking forward to meeting you all.

=C2=A0

BR

=C2=A0

B.PONSARD

=C2=A0

--

Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD Director of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com<= /u>

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan


--047d7bdc0ae8639562052fe87c24-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:02:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601FD12D5E2 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXNaCA3X61hS for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x231.google.com (mail-oi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEDCB12D525 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x231.google.com with SMTP id p188so108410922oih.2 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=COffR3MqS2UEEMMn/QjZgphGq8SShfDygWsMWSWvOTw=; b=lNDIyPj4dThytW4ewldGegWAtvsT2fjiKexNetz8KXOj+DhZEcNfM54pKwM00E/9QH 1nLw0QNzhWFjgn/G2IcOAMHGp7Ugci2EiuOXv2p5u7S3FTNL1bToj8vJuOhjZnt7WxIW Me4IoAVwqlmbM9w1fhSJEU3tuQ7tUZguRgtp2hTAdeVomm/1mTOCKNIJAT7RCJZzEGl8 79xIA/+oFOpTM7bJjn+kxgBh7kv3J1KZ5OwRUaA+DY9aexkQTaY3uIiex8qjvBW/YOEd +PUGDHZYHD4qYrKExzO3JN1BeWYS7NJ49kZVcwnFif1bCg/ZRNTteS95Srao4nBDtinm B+qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=COffR3MqS2UEEMMn/QjZgphGq8SShfDygWsMWSWvOTw=; b=DlIRRnKeGbJAujqHCV6AiYNPq0xJXlGxWAL8c7oL75U1fsBlwjNWICaNDDsxjR+aDZ 7bk0Bp5A8kPPs8ULfywzLj1FsZzrFw2r8BjA4t7KBMG4W/HqeSPPzPggE2HTP6vNDbAq aPkRAPC387xDH70uaKKoVsyAXEGOygIGEe5YAS5cjld9NOBtn20EKhBSJCvqrvb2XXkI JjwMenxxrCmcjwKSIB2Czwf0Wjg0XxGTOIpklLnJALXboM+WHJdL3wXfu+FZu/KdPqXY FQeNOw42DUVEDfvMJV1THibuJYhTDex9Ze5DbE98ecGAtqMHs037PeQnAITqxLHy3Iyy qScQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLnxylecUUap4hZAk/nN+eEjFkkVZi13yUxk8YHNVVp3Zt+GxZBqAKm77gY8mIf/RxtGmcYgF5Us9K33Q== X-Received: by 10.157.2.69 with SMTP id 63mr2276034otb.170.1460052168755; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:02:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.22.250 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:02:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: lp-wan@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] presentations updated, draft minutes uploaded X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:02:52 -0000 Hi, The presentations in the meeting materials have, I believe, been updated to reflect the minor changes from the previous version to what was actually shown. Also, draft minutes have been uploaded. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/95/materials/#lpwan Thanks, Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com From nobody Thu Apr 7 16:31:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D089D12D535 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mKivPZoW0Zpl for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4702B12D11E for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 91AAB32446B; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:31:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme3.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.50.57]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 72A794C05D; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:31:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCNORM2E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::c505:acb8:89e0:c6d6]) by OPEXCNORM71.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::d559:a7fd:890d:dd99%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:31:07 +0200 From: To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Beno=EEt_PONSARD_=28SIGFOX=29?= , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution Thread-Index: AQHRkOiUiodM/+EKnkumRzLlad7bt59/KUYA Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:31:07 +0000 Message-ID: <11142_1460071867_5706EDBB_11142_10919_1_D32CBA2C.31B8E%dominique.barthel@orange.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-originating-ip: [10.114.50.248] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D32CBA2C31B8Edominiquebarthelorangecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2016.4.7.223615 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 23:31:12 -0000 --_000_D32CBA2C31B8Edominiquebarthelorangecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bonjour Benoit Je crois qu'on se conna=EEt Welcome on board! Dominique De : lp-wan > on be= half of "Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)" > Date : Thursday 7 April 2016 17:55 =C0 : "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Objet : [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution Hi all, I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA sy= stems. I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to thi= s group. In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently availabl= e on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology. As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find the = next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very grateful i= f the chairman of this group could send me some hints. Looking forward to meeting you all. BR B.PONSARD -- Beno=EEt PONSARD Director of Standardization Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 www.sigfox.com ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_D32CBA2C31B8Edominiquebarthelorangecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <78B88006A799254BA914A7D5BEC63D4E@adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bonjour Benoit

Je crois qu'on se conna=EEt
Welcome on board!

Dominique

De : lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Beno=EEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)" <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com>
Date : Thursday 7 April 2016 1= 7:55
=C0 : "lp-wan@ietf.org" <lp-wan@ietf.org>
Objet : [lp-wan] SIGFOX contri= bution

Hi all,

I'm Benoit PONSA= RD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX.
I've been told t= hat IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA systems.
I can tell you t= hat my company will be more than happy to contribute to this group.<= /div>

In the mean time= , I've reviewed the technology document, currently available on the docbox,= and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology.

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't kn= ow exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your work plan. = So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could send me som= e hints.

Looking forward to meeting you all.

BR

B.PONSARD

--
Beno=EEt PONSARD
Director of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_D32CBA2C31B8Edominiquebarthelorangecom_-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 01:55:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92F512D505 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sigfox.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8kgAAy6Rh6gS for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE04F12D0A4 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 191so11228635wmq.0 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 01:54:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sigfox.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=gK4awDnzULG+XEWvHlbWploHJ0l3cu0YAcH9D8mdZMg=; b=FtKPFITJpFkMMOsig/p7hc019y52i/+4ynKjE1JN6ugGlz2QqraZr8ixGFVlF/Dfee Gxte+RzSOt6Sf8xSJU13P/96+o6AVCFDCjUVbTGK1OtySM9v0gyAXL8IKiqHCRqrZ0S5 BqUJYIb8cxnhzXaye1ecYvKeihf7WUN0R2+4A= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=gK4awDnzULG+XEWvHlbWploHJ0l3cu0YAcH9D8mdZMg=; b=AZVOrUbtQrcBCIu5BvCPl8atO7xvpEl/2CHKqT08EdpK4Tjd4oxIcqVGcgX4wS4DhT 64SkRbH8Y06CN7sDlMf2zAAxxz86ZjnHcsMXzCwRKTgw/Z6/LiStbRwxdp2HRy/PSk0a 8WX+wE+N4NsoAGo1+szp2Qsycui5GkSryFyKLn31bn7X6COR/L1WP6iYB8ZjShqw1vCp fX/EuzeqBLP5srWJry+B5aeQZ83Q2r+zUmTynEVhnLh6rTfwZ2P1aIdBdj054txazxLt C/jWMBSC9zk18AeXScf7s5yrlGbTLo2/0eZHkqx5OzQqCjEjGmYyLPTeo91dNPxoWSJI Dl+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJxGaOkXkFLLEHHsSkEwzeZFZBmQMkxvmP3/aJyOXmgDPKHryR5I6WHTjjonMd4LC72EjapHxUViAWeXGvq MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.28.143.9 with SMTP id r9mr2327396wmd.37.1460105696131; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 01:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.167.196 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 01:54:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <98F63C56-30DD-40C4-8FA4-3CA85ADA2E4A@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:54:56 +0200 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?QmVub8OudCBQT05TQVJEIChTSUdGT1gp?= To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11469b145a5726052ff55910 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 08:55:01 -0000 --001a11469b145a5726052ff55910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, thanks for your welcome message. I should be able to be with you in Berlin. In the mean time, I'm gonna follow the discussion on this reflector and try to contribute. BR BPS 2016-04-07 19:33 GMT+02:00 Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) : > Benoit - I assumed the network architecture for SIGFOX is a closed system= . > It fill be good if you can do a presentation at the next IETF on the > current backend network functions, security model and the interworking wi= th > the Application functions. It will be good to understand the commonalitie= s > between these different LPWAN technologies and the potential steps to > realizing =E2=80=9CIP=E2=80=9D adoption. > > Sri > > > From: lp-wan on behalf of "Pascal Thubert > (pthubert)" > Date: Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 10:23 AM > To: "Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX)" > Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contribution > > Same here Benoit! > > One of the outcomes of the meeting Monday was the reckoning that the grou= p > should focus on 1 to 3 representative technologies, such as SIGFOX, > provided that the entity in charge of defining that technology would be > willing to collaborate with the IETF. > > Though work can and should start yesterday on this ML, the real > standardization of protocols and/or definition of best practices will onl= y > happen with a WG. We need to understand if the LPWAN work requires a > separate group and, if so convince the IETF to let that happen. > > The almost necessary step is what we call a WG forming BoF, which would > occur in July in Berlin during IETF 96. Would you attend there and help u= s > make the case? > > Expressing your perception of the value for SIGFOX to integrate Internet > technology and showing your willingness to contribute and adopt would mak= e > a difference. > > Regards, > > Pascal > > Le 7 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 13:14, Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) > a =C3=A9crit : > > Hi all, > > I'm Benoit PONSARD, director fo standardization at SIGFOX. > I've been told that IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA > systems. > I can tell you that my company will be more than happy to contribute to > this group. > > In the mean time, I've reviewed the technology document, currently > available on the docbox, and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's > technology. > > As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don't know exactly where to find th= e > next steps and next dates for your work plan. So I would be very grateful > if the chairman of this group could send me some hints. > > Looking forward to meeting you all. > > BR > > B.PONSARD > > -- > Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD > Director of Standardization > Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 > www.sigfox.com > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD Director of Standardization Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71 www.sigfox.com --001a11469b145a5726052ff55910 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

thanks for your welcome message.
I should be able to b= e with you in Berlin.
In the mean time, I'm gonna follow the discussion = on this reflector and try to contribute.

BR

BPS

2016-04-07 19:33 GMT+02:00 = Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>:
Benoit - I assumed the network architecture for SIGFOX is a closed sys= tem. It fill be good if you can do a presentation at the next IETF on the c= urrent backend network functions, security model and the interworking with = the Application functions. It will be good to understand the commonalities between these different LPWAN tech= nologies and the potential steps to realizing =E2=80=9CIP=E2=80=9D adoption= .

Sri


From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> = on behalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 10= :23 AM
To: "Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGF= OX)" <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com>
Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" <lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] SIGFOX contri= bution

Same here Benoit!

One of the outcomes of the meeting Monday was the reckoning that the group = should focus on 1 to 3 representative =C2=A0technologies, such as SIGFOX, p= rovided that the entity in charge of defining that technology would be will= ing to collaborate with the IETF.

Though work can and should start yesterday on this ML, the real standa= rdization of protocols and/or definition of best practices will only happen= with a WG. We need to understand if the LPWAN work requires a separate gro= up and, if so convince the IETF to let that happen.

The almost necessary step is what we call a WG forming BoF, which woul= d occur in July in Berlin during IETF 96. Would you attend there and help u= s make the case?=C2=A0

Expressing your perception of the value for SIGFOX to integrate Intern= et technology and showing your willingness to contribute and adopt would ma= ke a difference.

Regards,

Pascal

Le 7 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 13:14, Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD (SIGFOX) <benoit.ponsard@sigfox.com= > a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

Hi all,

I'm Benoit PONSAR= D, director fo standardization at SIGFOX.
I've been told th= at IETF has started an unformal group dealing with LPWA systems.
I can tell you that m= y company will be more than happy to contribute to this group.

In the mean time, I&#= 39;ve reviewed the technology document, currently available on the docbox, = and I've made some changes regarding SIGFOX's technology.

As I'm not very familiar with IETF, I don&= #39;t know exactly where to find the next steps and next dates for your wor= k plan. So I would be very grateful if the chairman of this group could sen= d me some hints.

Looking forward to meeting you all.

BR

B.PONSARD

--
Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD
Director of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org<= /a>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



--
Beno=C3=AEt PONSARD
Director = of Standardization
Mobile : +33 (0)6 84 74 70 71
www.sigfox.com

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VI1PR06MB1101; 5:pzr7Z4HQT1tvH6r3kaKPZbJVAK6Yqmu/Q1wdRBPtScg40CKXvspOA/4e32bgbQeG86vZtUsf4hS6v80+FdbKUIRplJLkazmdEt3JNKV6k2hwIMBJOMylnbZWdWCdjVXtT0sGeHNB8gkNAUptRcWcig==; 24:wsoX6BBoKdVfBO0LtVp4IclL+eacQMpusC46HngGQ9Jj6jiW0kP3jIQWCheKfLyjTQcZJ6xSmO4QnAc8PskV1XDeKk/5IYVpbcfblmkDe1U= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: gridbeecom.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2016 13:45:14.9248 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR06MB1101 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Gridbee Communications interest in LP-WAN group X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 14:31:09 -0000 --001a114034ec61847b052ff9670a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, I'm Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz, PhD student at Gridbee Communications. Gridbee Communications is provider of communication modules that use the OFDM modulation option of the IEEE 802.15.4g standard to guarantee robust link in constraint environments. We are interested in this LP-WAN group as we believe the 802.15.4g could be a technology of choice for the targeted applications and we would like to participate in it. We believe the standardisation process for these systems will benefits to all of us. Hopefully a Gridbee Communications member will take part in the next LP-WAN IETF meeting in Berlin. Kind regards, --=20 Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 --001a114034ec61847b052ff9670a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone,=C2=A0

I'm Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz, Ph= D student at Gridbee Communications. Gridbee Communications is provider of = communication modules that use the OFDM modulation option of the IEEE 802.1= 5.4g standard to guarantee robust link in constraint environments. We are i= nterested in this LP-WAN group as we believe the 802.15.4g could be a techn= ology of choice for the targeted applications and we would like to particip= ate in it. We believe the standardisation process for these systems will be= nefits to all of us.

= =C2=A0=

Hopefully a Gridbee Communica= tions member will take part in the next LP-WAN IETF meeting in Berlin.


Kind regards,
--
=
Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Gridbee Communications &= ; INRIA Paris

--001a114034ec61847b052ff9670a-- From nobody Sat Apr 9 03:32:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FECA12D5AC for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:32:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qYuOZFz35AD0 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from violet.upc.es (violet.upc.es [147.83.2.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0BC312D5AA for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 03:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entelserver.upc.edu (entelserver.upc.es [147.83.39.4]) by violet.upc.es (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id u39AWcrC021762; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:32:39 +0200 Received: from webmail.entel.upc.edu (webmail.entel.upc.edu [147.83.39.6]) by entelserver.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097921D53C1; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:32:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 89.240.19.30 by webmail.entel.upc.edu with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:32:27 +0200 Message-ID: <79d6a1c4f9f06d732aedb0e617c371d8.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:32:27 +0200 From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jonathan_Mu=F1oz=22?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.21-1.fc14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd X-Greylist: ACL matched, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (violet.upc.es [147.83.2.51]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 12:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Gridbee Communications interest in LP-WAN group X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 10:32:49 -0000 Hi Jonathan, It is great to know that the upcoming LPWAN developments may be beneficial for you, and your participation is very valuable. Thanks, Carles > Hello everyone, > > I'm Jonathan Muñoz, PhD student at Gridbee Communications. Gridbee > Communications is provider of communication modules that use the OFDM > modulation option of the IEEE 802.15.4g standard to guarantee robust link > in constraint environments. We are interested in this LP-WAN group as we > believe the 802.15.4g could be a technology of choice for the targeted > applications and we would like to participate in it. We believe the > standardisation process for these systems will benefits to all of us. > > > > Hopefully a Gridbee Communications member will take part in the next > LP-WAN > IETF meeting in Berlin. > > Kind regards, > -- > Jonathan Muñoz > PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris > +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Sat Apr 9 17:05:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A3F12D4FC for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5s9rgaGYfrB for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3997412D1D8 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter10-d.gandi.net (mfilter10-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.139]) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E0341C092 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 02:05:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter10-d.gandi.net Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.197]) by mfilter10-d.gandi.net (mfilter10-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uR4SE7Qb9Koa for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 02:05:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 190.194.170.67 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (unknown [190.194.170.67]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7823141C090 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 02:05:09 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7176F6EC-F3CB-4982-A373-90689E1A4389" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <79d6a1c4f9f06d732aedb0e617c371d8.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 21:05:06 -0300 Message-Id: References: <79d6a1c4f9f06d732aedb0e617c371d8.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> To: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Gridbee Communications interest in LP-WAN group X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 00:05:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7176F6EC-F3CB-4982-A373-90689E1A4389 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Jonathan, Welcome on board! We should focus on 2-3 base technologies on which to = work initially. IEEE 802.15.4g could be a great candidate together with = SIGFOX. In the mean time it would be nice if you can check that the specific = flavor of 802.15.4g your company is developing is on the list: = https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7cXN4_VuI8imy8MG3-fHjl9FNiNvYfdB4txN4= hDQ-w/edit = =20 Best, Alexander > Le 9 avr. 2016 =E0 07:32, Carles Gomez Montenegro = a =E9crit : >=20 > Hi Jonathan, >=20 > It is great to know that the upcoming LPWAN developments may be = beneficial > for you, and your participation is very valuable. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Carles >=20 >=20 >> Hello everyone, >>=20 >> I'm Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz, PhD student at Gridbee Communications. = Gridbee >> Communications is provider of communication modules that use the OFDM >> modulation option of the IEEE 802.15.4g standard to guarantee robust = link >> in constraint environments. We are interested in this LP-WAN group as = we >> believe the 802.15.4g could be a technology of choice for the = targeted >> applications and we would like to participate in it. We believe the >> standardisation process for these systems will benefits to all of us. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Hopefully a Gridbee Communications member will take part in the next >> LP-WAN >> IETF meeting in Berlin. >>=20 >> Kind regards, >> -- >> Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz >> PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris >> +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --Apple-Mail=_7176F6EC-F3CB-4982-A373-90689E1A4389 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Jonathan,

Welcome on board! We should focus on 2-3 base technologies on = which to work initially. IEEE 802.15.4g could be a great candidate = together with SIGFOX.

In the mean time it would be nice if you can check that the = specific flavor of 802.15.4g your company is developing is on the = list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7cXN4_VuI8imy8MG3-fHjl9FNi= NvYfdB4txN4hDQ-w/edit 

Best,
Alexander


Le 9 avr. 2016 =E0 07:32, Carles Gomez Montenegro <carlesgo@entel.upc.edu> a =E9crit :

Hi = Jonathan,

It is great to know that the = upcoming LPWAN developments may be beneficial
for you, and = your participation is very valuable.

Thanks,

Carles


Hello = everyone,

I'm Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz, PhD = student at Gridbee Communications. Gridbee
Communications = is provider of communication modules that use the OFDM
modulation option of the IEEE 802.15.4g standard to guarantee = robust link
in constraint environments. We are interested = in this LP-WAN group as we
believe the 802.15.4g could be = a technology of choice for the targeted
applications and = we would like to participate in it. We believe the
standardisation process for these systems will benefits to = all of us.



Hopefully a Gridbee Communications member will take part in = the next
LP-WAN
IETF meeting in Berlin.

Kind regards,
--
Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Gridbee = Communications & INRIA Paris
+33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

= --Apple-Mail=_7176F6EC-F3CB-4982-A373-90689E1A4389-- From nobody Mon Apr 18 12:34:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FE412E65E for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.b=hb3Auikv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=minaburo-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=uqk0MbMP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LvzwOpNDgQT3 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF77312E662 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id u185so205042867iod.3 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:34:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=UV3UUVWY9ZLFYgM8yCr5EGCOhIQaluzvwPq9dErS24A=; b=hb3AuikvfyMCTcfAVAC3tARVcDxpmw3z+3tLlsbIYmTabAhDUMom5zhafgsNkdmuk4 lh4LaCQOFIxsnuKwnfIZPNtknwL+QubJaR2EApfILGZTJnMIo+gaiIbJjg5Tcoig9dzu ybwzfcT77aH+rm3/WCDQbqYbJ2dGZhwSn8+jeb3UDq3A9wPbO0TfH46wK7Maad3A6LCa mq5aC0qQfv8ELWUu3L6OPWnDSJLNUL5Wg8ezmtQx81UB+L/1EUhK8G3rCQisYMM9iPn4 XCovfP/8S/ZUjKWs1INp+UdJCAsU4c1wzfAh/PMzK/uyipZTIDZ/N0eZL8EXrAebKPFT SgrQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=minaburo-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=UV3UUVWY9ZLFYgM8yCr5EGCOhIQaluzvwPq9dErS24A=; b=uqk0MbMPD5I3wdJSmyjulKHNPwME7zqZJ9ED5mY2mEYS6gbj84uO4MocxaU2mNyK6m Mgh1bZjW1tE5yfRloaWU8owM7rmX6bl9ajZuXKNwS9cNVmrh8NeR6otqiGH7tXSh8OUY GPlfuDsOIs8LAKdou/mcV3iBmQfIU44OFrg9usTOMRXtXe9uYcD1PE9iEU+clnCvMQnJ laAIfnz1heqpjdYSHbKNO7HXfbGijaecrW2xVESAwBb2Wrk51MUT60cawuoQv3tcTSIu y5Ge7C9d3MiZlhA9OZYDbI75rQBcXnfRn70CIkDTzDV3oRjyJvdVXgc88XEfHjMtS7vr NxRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=UV3UUVWY9ZLFYgM8yCr5EGCOhIQaluzvwPq9dErS24A=; b=Zgdb/WobCgJ1mz/qVT1ogCH0ajyc3nEsOz9IMvTQFA6rlID8EOqIf99dw9RbVIVVyZ 4WYotvRcyBRg5NpIdC7f3yFpurh0PUkkXby2pmmB4kefEWAQtDP7QPxw72BJnv8DANM7 t8C4PcJRtCMCuh9Q6vwGrRk48Ylwxzt97PhGOv+6avlbDjQW3k1dzcIUhgopI3I7EPDJ KVBPv2Ru96HpGsRCsv7f/K3jbpgKwhsAqQ6nACdGO6Rw6GbYSIHyYD1IrvZEE6o5jwv8 JxSUKdPoOYRTfdM78l3e++64AOkcuW9poR7qoPOXUu05mJUCgy5S8iC8luqQs4Bxrd0x ZgOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FU8SKsJ5USNJgF6Hnx4X4UQiNZSIBdHOdaeqcPegd2HHagZ1qHVSMcG2JJz+Mf9QE8K38ssoboRDFI/ng== X-Received: by 10.107.25.68 with SMTP id 65mr41539638ioz.98.1461008058242; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:34:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: anaminaburo@gmail.com Received: by 10.79.21.193 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:33:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Ana Minaburo Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:33:58 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DpuYmqwGD5hmDOOT7utR-I_wZtY Message-ID: To: lp-wan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fe548535b1d0530c7725e Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:34:32 -0000 --001a113fe548535b1d0530c7725e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello everybody! Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general consensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance we need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to create a new working group for this domain or not? I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highlight and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also need to study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual technologies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF WG where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work. Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be joined in its global and total concerns. Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the IETF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be defined. Regards, Ana --001a113fe548535b1d0530c7725e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everybody!

Well, I want to resume= to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires.

First thank= s to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it was a success a= nd there is an attracting interest, there were a general consensus about th= e role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance we need to focus= the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to create a new work= ing group for this domain or not?

I think we need = a new working group, first because we need to highlight and define the Best= current practices for the vertical stack,we also need to study the differe= nt problematics in each layer and how the actual technologies can be used o= r in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF WG where they can be= solved and if there is not WG then do this work.

= Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be join= ed in its global and total concerns.

Finally it is= important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the IETF protocols to th= ese new technologies where many things need to be defined.

Regards,
Ana


--001a113fe548535b1d0530c7725e-- From nobody Mon Apr 18 12:38:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400C12DE37 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ql2kFwxhW8fV for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E3B212E676 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1509; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461008284; x=1462217884; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=nSljz31vC7jO724JGItOmRVRc+n2bsNjtW8qqpjG/7M=; b=DrK6iif5SmaUkVGUzJF8m7xtHEPVxZS4MKT9EpaGBKkDx19ENDPH+J2Y AAGj6GxZTSiE50/Vf+GFkb5DQOOzFR/r6TYWF7QP89NXbilOoXp1m2EhY PZuiLd/7mTufDZHWb/9qs8PTcyGfX+dDbyi/10ToIOByo4TYJs5fGF34x 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A6AgC7NhVX/5pdJa1dgzhTfbopAQ2Bc?= =?us-ascii?q?RcLhWwCgTo4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RCAQEDAQEBAWsLBQsCAQhGJwslAgQOBYghCA6?= =?us-ascii?q?8QAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAREEhiGBdYFUgQKEPYMtgisFjguKAwGIJ?= =?us-ascii?q?oVnjxGPKgEeAQFCg2hsiToBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,503,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="261126307" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Apr 2016 19:38:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3IJc38O012730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:38:03 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:38:02 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:38:02 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Ana Minaburo Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires Thread-Index: AQHRmalYM6aP4DzzA0Sf/L1A4qCHg5+QIFEZ Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:38:02 +0000 Message-ID: <33620DA5-3D89-43BB-9E7A-372F423017EF@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:38:06 -0000 I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a WG for= ming BoF in Berlin! Take care, Pascal > Le 18 avr. 2016 =E0 21:34, Ana Minaburo a =E9crit : >=20 > Hello everybody! >=20 > Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. >=20 > First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it wa= s a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general conse= nsus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance we = need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to crea= te a new working group for this domain or not? >=20 > I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highlight a= nd define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also need to= study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual technolo= gies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF WG= where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work. >=20 > Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be jo= ined in its global and total concerns. >=20 > Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the IETF = protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be defined. >=20 > Regards, > Ana >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 18 12:58:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8902712E6A6 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:58:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kfd1edZ40YWq for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 167E012D164 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter47-d.gandi.net (mfilter47-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.178]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9CFA80CF for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:58:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter47-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter47-d.gandi.net (mfilter47-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1EgE2QfGuJO for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:58:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 109.8.208.86 Received: from [192.168.0.13] (86.208.8.109.rev.sfr.net [109.8.208.86]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B7C2A80D0 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:58:08 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: <33620DA5-3D89-43BB-9E7A-372F423017EF@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:58:09 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <33620DA5-3D89-43BB-9E7A-372F423017EF@cisco.com> To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:58:15 -0000 Dear all, Tanks Ana for the great summary! There was indeed a very lively = discussion, with some detailed remarks on some of the topics. On other = major points we=E2=80=99ve only just scratched the surface. In all cases = we have enough specific and well-defined problems, with initial = proposals for the solutions. I agree with you and Pascal. We need to have a place to do this work in = a focused way, which would allow for BCPs and cross-group documents to = be initiated. The industry is moving fast and the need is there. If we = repeat the work in 4-5 different groups in an independent way, we=E2=80=99= ll fail to live up to the expectations.=20 I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin. Best, Alexander > Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = a =C3=A9crit : >=20 > I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a = WG forming BoF in Berlin! >=20 > Take care, >=20 > Pascal >=20 >> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:34, Ana Minaburo a = =C3=A9crit : >>=20 >> Hello everybody! >>=20 >> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. >>=20 >> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think = it was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a = general consensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. = For instance we need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree = if we want to create a new working group for this domain or not? >>=20 >> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to = highlight and define the Best current practices for the vertical = stack,we also need to study the different problematics in each layer and = how the actual technologies can be used or in case of modifications = bring them to the best IETF WG where they can be solved and if there is = not WG then do this work. >>=20 >> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can = be joined in its global and total concerns. >>=20 >> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the = IETF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be = defined. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Ana >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 18 13:10:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B74812E6CA for ; 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Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:09:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: emmanuel.baccelli@gmail.com Received: by 10.159.35.21 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 13:09:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <33620DA5-3D89-43BB-9E7A-372F423017EF@cisco.com> From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:09:39 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ybI-tobDenAFt884FSLY65kmQnE Message-ID: To: Alexander Pelov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11478810e5a8ef0530c7f17e Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 20:10:02 -0000 --001a11478810e5a8ef0530c7f17e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alexander Pelov wrote: > > > I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin. > > +1 Emmanuel > > > > Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > a =C3=A9crit : > > > > I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a WG > forming BoF in Berlin! > > > > Take care, > > > > Pascal > > > >> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:34, Ana Minaburo a =C3=A9= crit : > >> > >> Hello everybody! > >> > >> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. > >> > >> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it > was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general > consensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For > instance we need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if w= e > want to create a new working group for this domain or not? > >> > >> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highligh= t > and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also need > to study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual > technologies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the be= st > IETF WG where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work= . > >> > >> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be > joined in its global and total concerns. > >> > >> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the > IETF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be > defined. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Ana > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> lp-wan mailing list > >> lp-wan@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > lp-wan mailing list > > lp-wan@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > --001a11478810e5a8ef0530c7f17e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alexander Pelov <= a@ackl.io> wro= te:


I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin.


+1
=C2=A0
Emmanuel=

=C2=A0


> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for= a WG forming BoF in Berlin!
>
> Take care,
>
> Pascal
>
>> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:34, Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> Hello everybody!
>>
>> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires.
>>
>> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I thin= k it was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a genera= l consensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For insta= nce we need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want = to create a new working group for this domain or not?
>>
>> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to high= light and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also = need to study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual t= echnologies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best = IETF WG where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work.<= br> >>
>> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN ca= n be joined in its global and total concerns.
>>
>> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring th= e IETF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be def= ined.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ana
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lp-wan mailing list
>> lp-wan@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> lp-wan mailing list
> lp-wan@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

--001a11478810e5a8ef0530c7f17e-- From nobody Mon Apr 18 14:03:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6037112E7DD for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZvjqk-8E8s7 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22c.google.com (mail-qg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2882012E7DC for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id f74so4379135qge.2 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=CbcjhNc+D4/Qdw/IcUbvTtVw8VjDtckvaKeWkccoVGk=; b=xay4Xq9PzqKpeL4A1NgjjX113JAaH8SsFdXPoEP3TFwcC+LCJKn4EEwNfr6TgpPKpZ /w1M4nl+/HviNr4Eud6Hr9JPltYv0YLVplubXo659tVi33YX6NzWag6HGpQ8707wOwHQ xrMOpUR5YWEN4jaUjBr45+73JswcpYsqVdtZyziCQ0qoQgM3p757xjh6QlICwZT+Yu+V 1ppff+DwGvfq4jFuebOR3/jaOhzroGiPKLAo5rT0DHL56wvQgx+4f8jutPOzfYuneIX2 LcfyYtgeRXzjrUK5AMfpbx3hs9Ma0N8sF4NqPAOwnXqUH0m0qahlUkjoQsu/Ue1dSRGh kxAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=CbcjhNc+D4/Qdw/IcUbvTtVw8VjDtckvaKeWkccoVGk=; b=TB+Wt582WNA0RtM8pAkG5p9Gek0TXMoDHHafSzluPD13AeSyf/Dj5dHLib1DpMdcF/ fLiDRmryKvgZoog/PCcfWUmr54WXh0W0eQnHbWMcvstHw753m7JZha4AO5azf6vKZ+pZ 473qPMo15a74IbgU+7ZZ5siGCBSRu/GcPRoSOvC1soXoL7flw3xwnOpew+71afRsqWxt GeVYVm13J8MKkq/C4RFSAQLIZ7M2y2EhkKS49eszyPgVXFvSR5tsB+MvzaeuBuZlynyj tv7pr01A8cmRQGNkah2h1HmjYJvdeFd8C8YcGkAtqFflhPi0Qkhb9YziBLOKhlL2Jdpb D7QQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUQwsIofFcYxTOrfdEyvTCr9t0nH4uoQVXMpES+CeIXldfIweLg9JVcTR0wMEI537NK X-Received: by 10.55.79.79 with SMTP id d76mr47136987qkb.76.1461013413048; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.26.148] ([65.222.231.2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a207sm27484638qkb.28.2016.04.18.14.03.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-DFF81902-B1A1-44FE-ACE8-00C83964C98A Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Juan Carlos Zuniga X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13E238) In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 17:03:28 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <33620DA5-3D89-43BB-9E7A-372F423017EF@cisco.com> To: Emmanuel Baccelli , Ana Minaburo Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Alexander Pelov Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:03:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail-DFF81902-B1A1-44FE-ACE8-00C83964C98A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ana, all, I agree that the BoF provided a very good overview of the specific problemat= ic of LPWAN systems. I also agree that, to provide a good solution to the specific LPWAN problems= , we need to take a holistic view of the system and protocol stack (potentia= lly beyond IETF).=20 Having said that, we need to identify specific areas where IETF can do meani= ngful work in a reasonable amount of time. Seems to me that a holistic descr= iption of the system, with a limited scope on specific protocol issues would= be a good way to base a potential charter upon. Best, Juan Carlos > On Apr 18, 2016, at 16:09, Emmanuel Baccelli w= rote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alexander Pelov wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin. >=20 > +1 > =20 > Emmanuel >=20 > =20 >>=20 >>=20 >> > Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) a =C3=A9crit : >> > >> > I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a WG= forming BoF in Berlin! >> > >> > Take care, >> > >> > Pascal >> > >> >> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:34, Ana Minaburo a =C3=A9= crit : >> >> >> >> Hello everybody! >> >> >> >> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. >> >> >> >> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it= was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general con= sensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance we= need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to crea= te a new working group for this domain or not? >> >> >> >> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highligh= t and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also need t= o study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual technolo= gies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF WG w= here they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work. >> >> >> >> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be= joined in its global and total concerns. >> >> >> >> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the IE= TF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be defined.= >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Ana >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> lp-wan mailing list >> >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > lp-wan mailing list >> > lp-wan@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --Apple-Mail-DFF81902-B1A1-44FE-ACE8-00C83964C98A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ana, all,

I agree that the BoF provided a very g= ood overview of the specific problematic of LPWAN systems.

I also agree that, to provide a good so= lution to the specific LPWAN problems, we need to take a holistic view of th= e system and protocol stack (potentially beyond IETF). 

Having said that, we need to identify= specific areas where IETF can do meaningful work in a reasonable amount of t= ime. Seems to me that a holistic description of the system, with a limited s= cope on specific protocol issues would be a good way to base a potential cha= rter upon.

Best,

Juan Carlos

On Apr 18, 2= 016, at 16:09, Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote:



On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io&= gt; wrote:


I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin.


+1
 
Emmanuel<= /div>

 


> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a WG= forming BoF in Berlin!
>
> Take care,
>
> Pascal
>
>> Le 18 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 21:34, Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> Hello everybody!
>>
>> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires.
>>
>> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think= it was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general c= onsensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance w= e need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to cre= ate a new working group for this domain or not?
>>
>> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highl= ight and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also ne= ed to study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual tech= nologies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF= WG where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work.
>>
>> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can= be joined in its global and total concerns.
>>
>> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the= IETF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be defin= ed.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ana
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lp-wan mailing list
>> lp-wan@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan<= br> >
> _______________________________________________
> lp-wan mailing list
> lp-wan@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

____________________= ___________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
<= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan">https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
= --Apple-Mail-DFF81902-B1A1-44FE-ACE8-00C83964C98A-- From nobody Mon Apr 18 14:03:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D3012E7DC for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.b=itCNGGrb; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=minaburo-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=PS28nBta Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SHci3myclHOT for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4574F12D501 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id o126so207371404iod.0 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RSYymnMV4kRu8IlnoqJo5pMwxFSl/87Xthh3YvjKXXs=; b=itCNGGrbdUdUErnAO5qef/uASkjzr+erBuZAXt+nNOfPGMvid16MlEuqSGNVYCAy2h +Si6pnu0RlHI3uOu/Z+cJd9Z4H65agDnLzHffUYLeuv1lCCQTbkmCVgM/BAsWS9hkctK CpVcqFv33kkB5aTHNb/TPkRSBhdbPg3hh9xQJgSfjMiXOesYF513qm7SMlDLj4+V+Kby YDpmndcea4zYSXeAZHL7UB7Ozb1EkTdJE6ZwisD+K0ogaAHkItGOb5a8taUZuXgUh2di xncQBnJ9x13YFgAuyXjH13jAo4qPs484JqR3TF3B30G9CQ+59wUvmBxAJ4gzeOysUeAz NKwA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=minaburo-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RSYymnMV4kRu8IlnoqJo5pMwxFSl/87Xthh3YvjKXXs=; b=PS28nBtaPzKvkY+vnjoTitKWLzp7YDKre/khZcZtkThyEPMR9FBFaxJn8za5qk22Lj j2twGr/c2KZGT+WLytLAlVGeKtovdTwJHG6Uc15lSMM1T3/HZ+3Jo5jWeSsk9wK8sGt8 INiXMtQGGX5bIpUI2hpdlafemPxtnD/SpALcxsc2paJM1F51sZpB8G8Ad6oW6pyJcoTS sqBijtaQzGH+vJt4CNpmFia6MJi/Mm1SRGCmZABXFyChqNQUuSYzryt3NZ2VYLspY7MW AnJ64YGJDbFce+oEy8EY70bViuQsVOd4O4353cgg9P52T242hFyO28tQDf+cruII4E52 mW0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=RSYymnMV4kRu8IlnoqJo5pMwxFSl/87Xthh3YvjKXXs=; b=PBFV95ZiL8er9/JTSYouWVIGOuT6EdVCMnGnaDVmWQlnX9RIWr1cy8kuuTbrOngkJx mTJBC7A3PLgxUPV8uUcFHkUN2bcGs75guri3AiP4mN9uzwhQcZBcCsGkSopnb5bOPJyr LinOtNn7hUOKryPs6qU7ExT587JQ/qt5GvQ3t/7QatJatpoWBNLpX+GeQIeIoTQ22CQV 6lnhJG7elvwFcZ5/jfKXzXZCKR//xdTmjMWeRbnqI3LVATaVGcAqExKA55ze5ZqT5D3X 93RdfqCp8kh5U1Qk0kF/COwwAUyad8NWxrv+vN4EN9CM3g23lhIlX1VKsNbGvMQMeRlO ClmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVFhr52VCGsLQ2EWsoKcaBnMlzPs/TbA4FQzv/Kw2t0D8n3xK/sb624h3BvQqJidNaXxy9dTubgMR1jRw== X-Received: by 10.107.170.152 with SMTP id g24mr42820349ioj.44.1461013414499; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: anaminaburo@gmail.com Received: by 10.79.21.193 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Ana Minaburo Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 23:03:15 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mxZhr-RDzuNzwHtPa3X--4MCku8 Message-ID: To: lp-wan@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114156149577700530c8b124 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 21:03:39 -0000 --001a114156149577700530c8b124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello again, Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which are the subjects we want to study, I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add. 1. IPv6 draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 IP End to End Communication IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation ND will be configured in advanced 2. Header Compression draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks 3. Security Personal information need to be secured, 4. Management draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 draft-veillette-core-cool-01 draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 Regards Ana --001a114156149577700530c8b124 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello again,

Well in this message I wou= ld like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps = we want to work in. Let's agree about which are the subjects we want to= study,=C2=A0

I think the following points are vey= important in order to create the WG, please tell me which other you think = we need to add.


1. IPv6=C2=A0
=
draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00
IP End to End Communi= cation
IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation=C2=A0
ND will be= configured in advanced

2. Header Compression= =C2=A0
draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00
New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks

3.= =C2=A0 Security
Personal information need to be secured,=C2=A0

4. Management=C2=A0
draft-pelov-core-cosol= -01
draft-veillette-core-cool-01
draft-somaraju= -core-sid-00

Regards
Ana
<= br>
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Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:54:01 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Juan Carlos Zuniga Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires Thread-Index: AQHRmalaNmGM6C+9r0+bjJND4L6hdJ+QIFEAgAAFnoCAAAM3gIAADwkAgAAe4AA= Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:54:00 +0000 Message-ID: <2F6BFC87-C393-4CD6-881E-D25707237AD0@jisc.ac.uk> References: <33620DA5-3D89-43BB-9E7A-372F423017EF@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [2001:a88:d510:1101:1840:52c:98a4:75e3] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 540e6ec1-4a2a-4e8e-59b9-08d367dc5549 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AMSPR07MB456; 5:TdpigfGfG5dShM1P1gL3u1XGZ/PHqAehCNhfbVcvAT836XJE5+0v4SGFwkwpxSOwQ83l57fdow2jGZilN4ISZ20i3vkmnUERKTAe9apjMLQHwCWkxKTnXAJKK3IWz/X3nrfMyfHx5bIFxG6p3F0BnA==; 24:3UJWJOy379okBkexVbPpQkjSKE9bzvY6lKFOatpYYXKiq0udxGx0Mcj4Q8d6cshV3qAXB3dDOJL6mmHF438Da00UvoRYTJ0B4yZ8n7TFa9Y=; 7:+G1qdg1YYDpaRdYJ/H8hX06V01qzNmFOgVhwGPT+GFSfCbcViOz8dzhrE+IykYScrI0VQYByIP0i1ufBLzi5d4vTFq4ZirkP08xNmjbBn9OHsfoKUdg5nM7cmU5rXhQ1Q4n4oDzmJNXvzuGn9Ka4+GnXxBfjpCB5oSFeJAb5LtfifwevEIzGbcBFBEXjHXk7; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AMSPR07MB456; H:AMSPR07MB455.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Apr 2016 22:54:00.8520 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AMSPR07MB456 X-MC-Unique: Xyc3hJCWTyyZcsrUggt2nw-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2F6BFC87C3934CD6881ED25707237AD0jiscacuk_" Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Emmanuel Baccelli , Alexander Pelov Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 22:54:12 -0000 --_000_2F6BFC87C3934CD6881ED25707237AD0jiscacuk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18 Apr 2016, at 22:03, Juan Carlos Zuniga > wrote: Ana, all, I agree that the BoF provided a very good overview of the specific problema= tic of LPWAN systems. I also agree that, to provide a good solution to the specific LPWAN problem= s, we need to take a holistic view of the system and protocol stack (potent= ially beyond IETF). Having said that, we need to identify specific areas where IETF can do mean= ingful work in a reasonable amount of time. Seems to me that a holistic des= cription of the system, with a limited scope on specific protocol issues wo= uld be a good way to base a potential charter upon. Successful WG-forming BoF guidance=85 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5434 Tim Best, Juan Carlos On Apr 18, 2016, at 16:09, Emmanuel Baccelli > wrote: On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alexander Pelov > wrote: I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin. +1 Emmanuel > Le 18 avr. 2016 =E0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > a =E9crit : > > I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a WG f= orming BoF in Berlin! > > Take care, > > Pascal > >> Le 18 avr. 2016 =E0 21:34, Ana Minaburo > a =E9crit : >> >> Hello everybody! >> >> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. >> >> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it w= as a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general cons= ensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance we= need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to cre= ate a new working group for this domain or not? >> >> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highlight = and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also need t= o study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual technol= ogies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF W= G where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work. >> >> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be j= oined in its global and total concerns. >> >> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the IETF= protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be defined. >> >> Regards, >> Ana >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --_000_2F6BFC87C3934CD6881ED25707237AD0jiscacuk_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-ID: <58E91F4CB594284D8A15C87E0917BE74@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 18 Apr 2016, at 22:03, Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org> wrote:<= /div>
Ana, all,

I agree that the BoF provided a very good overview of the specifi= c problematic of LPWAN systems.

I also agree that, to provide a good solution to the specific LPW= AN problems, we need to take a holistic view of the system and protocol sta= ck (potentially beyond IETF). 

Having said that, we need to identify specific areas where IETF c= an do meaningful work in a reasonable amount of time. Seems to me that a ho= listic description of the system, with a limited scope on specific protocol issues would be a good way to base a = potential charter upon.

Successful WG-forming BoF guidance=85 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5434

Tim


Best,

Juan Carlos

On Apr 18, 2016, at 16:09, Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote:


On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Alexander Pelov= <a@ackl.io= > wrote:


I am in favor for a WG forming BoF in Berlin.


+1
 
Emmanuel

 


> Le 18 avr. 2016 =E0 21:38, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> a =E9crit :<= br class=3D""> >
> I completely agree with all your great points, Ana. Let's head for a W= G forming BoF in Berlin!
>
> Take care,
>
> Pascal
>
>> Le 18 avr. 2016 =E0 21:34, Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com> a =E9crit :
>>
>> Hello everybody!
>>
>> Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires.
>>
>> First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I thin= k it was a success and there is an attracting interest, there were a genera= l consensus about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For insta= nce we need to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to create a new working group for thi= s domain or not?
>>
>> I think we need a new working group, first because we need to high= light and define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also = need to study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual t= echnologies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best IETF WG where they can be solved and = if there is not WG then do this work.
>>
>> Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN ca= n be joined in its global and total concerns.
>>
>> Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring th= e IETF protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be def= ined.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ana
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lp-wan mailing list
>> lp-wan@ietf.org<= br class=3D""> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
>
> _______________________________________________
> lp-wan mailing list
> lp-wan@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan<= /a>

__________________________________________= _____
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

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dGhlIGNvbnRlbnRzIHRvIGFueSBvdGhlciBwZXJzb24sIHVzZSBpdCBmb3IgYW55IHB1cnBvc2Us DQogb3Igc3RvcmUgb3IgY29weSB0aGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW4gYW55IG1lZGl1bS4gVGhhbmsg eW91Lg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_AM4PR08MB109061D14F845F3A43C8B58FFA6C0AM4PR08MB1090eurp_-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 00:19:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A617012D984 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:19:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H7it2A_H6MXB for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x241.google.com (mail-lf0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ACEE12D74C for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x241.google.com with SMTP id o124so1150174lfb.2 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:19:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc; bh=PYbwXLWa+7BTMB9uKTmzyY0AbZ3E92RUDoQ+5O2RP5c=; b=eBykYp1WZiZU1f5rRfv9gPMY24LZQ7crZIaWubuIQCAEBb/iZ0bbZ7vieXVaHGGX+Q ZymWAQzhpSGu00DBEJg8QAQJ3rd1oCiXHrrGl2IgesNOvFaG2z4NeFagtsU2mfe4FjbM 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q19mr693360lfe.24.1461050367771; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.252.135 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 02:19:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Ana Minaburo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Return from Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:19:31 -0000 Hi Ana, On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Ana Minaburo wrote: > Hello everybody! > > Well, I want to resume to everybody the BoF at Buenos Aires. > > First thanks to all the good job made for the presentation. I think it was a > success and there is an attracting interest, there were a general consensus > about the role the IETF can play in the LPWAN domain. For instance we need > to focus the scope of the Gap Analysis and to agree if we want to create a > new working group for this domain or not? > > I think we need a new working group, first because we need to highlight and > define the Best current practices for the vertical stack,we also need to > study the different problematics in each layer and how the actual > technologies can be used or in case of modifications bring them to the best > IETF WG where they can be solved and if there is not WG then do this work. > > Second I think that currently there is not a WG where the LPWAN can be > joined in its global and total concerns. > > Finally it is important to do this vertical adaptation to bring the IETF > protocols to these new technologies where many things need to be defined. > All of the above reminds me of 6tisch. Maybe 6tisch with a different technology, and what that technology was not clear during the BoF at IETF 95. My 2 cents. Behcet > Regards, > Ana > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Tue Apr 19 00:37:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F0B12E70B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:37:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OdbzFXTGqXOX for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75E8012E53E for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,505,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="214910981" Received: from mail-yw0-f173.google.com ([209.85.161.173]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 19 Apr 2016 09:37:29 +0200 Received: by mail-yw0-f173.google.com with SMTP id g133so7454793ywb.2 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:37:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW0gNO+mivzQDf5wDCQHth8jV5F/CdE4NpoPUc/JqxkNcEHtc76sGZB7+fMOAsZ6k2AT+hlO6qBmPnMVw== X-Received: by 10.13.212.74 with SMTP id w71mr780624ywd.217.1461051448734; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:37:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.208.133 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:37:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:37:08 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114fd44c99b6e80530d18cbe Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:37:34 -0000 --001a114fd44c99b6e80530d18cbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in the area of LPWAN at the IETF. Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that was going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial e-mail in this thread. There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks about whether this was the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether there was pull from the entities defining that technology. Since then, representatives of companies working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the solutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others speaking up. So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of LPWAN should be lifted. My 2c. Thomas On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig < Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: > Hi Ana, > > > > I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks. > > > > Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work > over these radio technologies. > > > > For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that som= e work is > needed. > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ana > Minaburo > *Sent:* 18 April 2016 23:03 > *To:* lp-wan@ietf.org > *Subject:* [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin > > > > Hello again, > > > > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need > to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which ar= e > the subjects we want to study, > > > > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG, > please tell me which other you think we need to add. > > > > > > 1. IPv6 > > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 > > IP End to End Communication > > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation > > ND will be configured in advanced > > > > 2. Header Compression > > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 > > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks > > > > 3. Security > > Personal information need to be secured, > > > > 4. Management > > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 > > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 > > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 > > > > Regards > > Ana > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --001a114fd44c99b6e80530d18cbe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work need= s to be done in the area of LPWAN at the IETF.

Most of = the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that was going to b= e addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial e-mail in this thr= ead.

There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow= the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks= about whether this was the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether = there was pull from the entities defining that technology. Since then, repr= esentatives of companies working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g technology spo= ke up, expressing clear interest for the solutions LPWAN could come up with= . There may be others speaking up.

So I believe we= have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the LPWAN group narrows = its scope to those as an initial set. Please note that a IEEE802.15.4g netw= ork is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of LPWAN should b= e lifted.

My 2c.

Thomas

On Tue, Apr 1= 9, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Ana,

=C2=A0

I would focus on the use = of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks.

=C2=A0

Device management approac= hes, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work over these radio technologi= es.

=C2=A0

For security I haven=E2= =80=99t seen a document that convinced me that some work is needed.

=C2=A0

Ciao=

Hannes

=C2=A0

From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo
Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03
To: lp-wan@ietf= .org
Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin=

=C2=A0

Hello again,

=C2=A0

Well in this message I would like to discuss the sco= pe of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let= 9;s agree about which are the subjects we want to study,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think the following points are vey important in or= der to create the WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. IPv6=C2=A0

draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00

IP End to End Communication

IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation=C2=A0<= /p>

ND will be configured in advanced

=C2=A0

2. Header Compression=C2=A0

draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00

New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks<= u>

=C2=A0

3.=C2=A0 Security

Personal information need to be secured,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

4. Management=C2=A0

draft-pelov-core-cosol-01

draft-veillette-core-cool-01

draft-somaraju-core-sid-00

=C2=A0

Regards

Ana

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
_______________________________________<= /div>
Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Founder & co-lead, UC Berke= ley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

=
________= _______________________________
--001a114fd44c99b6e80530d18cbe-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 02:45:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6FD12D996 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 02:45:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15pIXXbNhT3h for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 02:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dash.upc.es (dash.upc.es [147.83.2.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B425512D936 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 02:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entelserver.upc.edu (entelserver.upc.es [147.83.39.4]) by dash.upc.es (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id u3J9jjiF014044; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:45:45 +0200 Received: from webmail.entel.upc.edu (webmail.entel.upc.edu [147.83.39.6]) by entelserver.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6311D53C1; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:45:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 131.111.5.14 by webmail.entel.upc.edu with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:46:17 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:46:17 +0200 From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" To: "Ana Minaburo" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.21-1.fc14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd X-Greylist: ACL matched, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (dash.upc.es [147.83.2.50]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:45:45 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org, josep.paradells@entel.upc.edu, jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:45:52 -0000 Hi Ana, all, I am also in favor of creating a new IETF WG focusing on LPWAN issues. I think that support/optimization of IPv6 over LPWAN is the core functionality required to connect LPWAN devices to the Internet. In this area, LPWANs require a solution not as close to the RFC 4944/6282/6775 suite as the "IPv6 over foo" work done in the 6lo WG. In my opinion, the particular LWPAN challenges require going beyond 4944/6282/6775 (even if this suite may still be a basis in some aspects). In this regard, I think potential WG items could be: - Produce "IPv6 over LPWAN: Problem Statement" o Maybe including a description of upper layer issues as well (e.g. similar to RFC 4919). - Produce functionality to support IPv6 over LPWAN. We might define IPv6 over foo specifications for the target LPWAN technologies to consider, and/or we might specify rather generic blocks: o "Header Compression for IPv6 datagrams over LPWAN" (covering not only IPv6, but also headers of upper layer protocols such as UDP and CoAP) o "Fragmentation Mechanism for IPv6 over LPWAN" o "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Adaptation for LPWAN" There are also end-to-end reliability issues. For example, how should the CoAP RTO be configured? Should CoCoA be used in these scenarios? With regard to management, do the drafts listed below have a home already in the CoRE WG? (Just asking, with the aim to understand which would be the best home for this piece of work.) What do you think? Thanks! Carles > Hello again, > > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need > to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which are > the subjects we want to study, > > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG, > please tell me which other you think we need to add. > > > 1. IPv6 > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 > IP End to End Communication > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation > ND will be configured in advanced > > 2. Header Compression > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks > > 3. Security > Personal information need to be secured, > > 4. Management > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 > > Regards > Ana > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Tue Apr 19 03:00:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E892112DD49 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:00:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6uKvHjlDLWrD for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B09212DA8B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id e190so12690399lfe.0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:00:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=xcCHiVT8WFVPdsgkvJ/PEqZOfA8jjjll24sQGbLPzwM=; b=RLn5mtIr5N3TMqEESNHnjyb8lTNGBvGrVnQPOg1ex/QrKglP8Lov/5Oo/CQC7rXhdl 16n9Xs6JenpaIJATE/+qgl4mfjF/4Mg53NKaXG8cdJgR8PNNiQ7vL01kq8ljMF4NsfmI MSE/lbzILQaG3pz+oO9TJ1AEneWADgfNWMcbj9MRlFBCAxz0eNCfx5/UMzf5fsekw3c8 CfTk7dsJ4AjipZtmOPxP44Te/SpvMFhOzRr70qN/cfUWuHNKeeQ8sZMtbtnSv8dNYItp RzwbifUCTdVPvup7j9xMOdNsNkvVUhD6IwC+mNO6b0eg5GAe34iiniH3NqeIJqC1MaU8 QJ9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=xcCHiVT8WFVPdsgkvJ/PEqZOfA8jjjll24sQGbLPzwM=; b=IJ8O7joTFA6ZRwntthmbyGgtLMIgtVxUfTK345Tyzdu3gDhTynf0FTkbNxQ6sCwKsc j3/072+ai3Dkg2EG+AxG5qZ9+kBSgf9S9lrXxzJuqJWl9faMrEro8uxawfz5Tq1v6Gq7 jhTeF2ZUQtxawJCp+UVmy0c8dz4R25OnhmgqiH7EEss/p796x7RRb5Nk6OvsSbSTuzle 0bXPIZndPAmLC51dvF5VX4w7/O/EbDACJWijDoPxFvQwMYs/PMXMuTdsR2PLjLI7QbCE JUwLB+TI+U/RQWqmUAvAS7VAlClP1s3OqVp54flXPVjct3Ry9GQv3lAKjGsCAk5uxEZW 6VPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXj7dwKdPDU72fZXV/fdnVl1DyiTdrnKr0SYV7JvJH9tBZ7i5KY3dqeIhwigzFdkbm+AtqOLNrOEzMHNQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.163.135 with SMTP id yi7mr968561lbb.122.1461060025454; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: xvilajosana@gmail.com Received: by 10.25.83.193 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:00:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:00:25 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: M92uFdsWfNYvXuBnKILQ5ozZrog Message-ID: From: Xavier Vilajosana To: Carles Gomez Montenegro Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01183bc8d0212b0530d38b12 Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , lp-wan@ietf.org, josep.paradells@entel.upc.edu, jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:00:30 -0000 --089e01183bc8d0212b0530d38b12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, I add some points that may be of interest as well: 1)some LPWAN technologies support multihop and star of star topologies. We should see if RPL+6LoRH or other routing protocols fit into them, (e.g in 15.4g). 2)Inline with RFC6775 we need to explore efficient context distribution approaches. 3) support to roaming. (WIND?) regards, Xavi 2016-04-19 11:46 GMT+02:00 Carles Gomez Montenegro : > Hi Ana, all, > > I am also in favor of creating a new IETF WG focusing on LPWAN issues. > > I think that support/optimization of IPv6 over LPWAN is the core > functionality required to connect LPWAN devices to the Internet. In this > area, LPWANs require a solution not as close to the RFC 4944/6282/6775 > suite as the "IPv6 over foo" work done in the 6lo WG. In my opinion, the > particular LWPAN challenges require going beyond 4944/6282/6775 (even if > this suite may still be a basis in some aspects). In this regard, I think > potential WG items could be: > > - Produce "IPv6 over LPWAN: Problem Statement" > o Maybe including a description of upper layer issues as well > (e.g. similar to RFC 4919). > > - Produce functionality to support IPv6 over LPWAN. We might define IPv6 > over foo specifications for the target LPWAN technologies to consider, > and/or we might specify rather generic blocks: > > o "Header Compression for IPv6 datagrams over LPWAN" (covering not > only IPv6, but also headers of upper layer protocols such as UDP > and CoAP) > > o "Fragmentation Mechanism for IPv6 over LPWAN" > > o "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Adaptation for LPWAN" > > There are also end-to-end reliability issues. For example, how should the > CoAP RTO be configured? Should CoCoA be used in these scenarios? > > With regard to management, do the drafts listed below have a home already > in the CoRE WG? (Just asking, with the aim to understand which would be > the best home for this piece of work.) > > What do you think? > > Thanks! > > Carles > > > > Hello again, > > > > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need > > to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which > are > > the subjects we want to study, > > > > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG, > > please tell me which other you think we need to add. > > > > > > 1. IPv6 > > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 > > IP End to End Communication > > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation > > ND will be configured in advanced > > > > 2. Header Compression > > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 > > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks > > > > 3. Security > > Personal information need to be secured, > > > > 4. Management > > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 > > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 > > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 > > > > Regards > > Ana > > _______________________________________________ > > lp-wan mailing list > > lp-wan@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > --089e01183bc8d0212b0530d38b12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I add some points that may be of in= terest as well:

1)some LPWAN technologies support = multihop and star of star topologies. We should see if RPL+6LoRH or other r= outing protocols fit into them, (e.g in 15.4g).=C2=A0

<= div>2)Inline with RFC6775 we need to explore efficient context distribution= approaches.

3) support to roaming. (WIND?)
<= div>
regards,
Xavi

2016-04-19 11:46 GMT+02:00 Carles Gome= z Montenegro <carlesgo@entel.upc.edu>:
Hi Ana, all,

I am also in favor of creating a new IETF WG focusing on LPWAN issues.

I think that support/optimization of IPv6 over LPWAN is the core
functionality required to connect LPWAN devices to the Internet. In this area, LPWANs require a solution not as close to the RFC 4944/6282/6775
suite as the "IPv6 over foo" work done in the 6lo WG. In my opini= on, the
particular LWPAN challenges require going beyond 4944/6282/6775 (even if this suite may still be a basis in some aspects). In this regard, I think potential WG items could be:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Produce "IPv6 over LPWAN: Problem Statement"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Maybe including a description of upper l= ayer issues as well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (e.g. similar to RFC 4919).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Produce functionality to support IPv6 over LPWAN. We might d= efine IPv6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over foo specifications for the target LPWAN technologi= es to consider,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and/or we might specify rather generic blocks:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 "Header Compression for IPv6 datagr= ams over LPWAN" (covering not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only IPv6, but also headers of upp= er layer protocols such as UDP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and CoAP)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 "Fragmentation Mechanism for IPv6 o= ver LPWAN"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Adaptation= for LPWAN"

There are also end-to-end reliability issues. For example, how should the CoAP RTO be configured? Should CoCoA be used in these scenarios?

With regard to management, do the drafts listed below have a home already in the CoRE WG?=C2=A0 (Just asking, with the aim to understand which would = be
the best home for this piece of work.)

What do you think?

Thanks!

Carles


> Hello again,
>
> Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We n= eed
> to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about w= hich are
> the subjects we want to study,
>
> I think the following points are vey important in order to create the = WG,
> please tell me which other you think we need to add.
>
>
> 1. IPv6
> draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00
> IP End to End Communication
> IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation
> ND will be configured in advanced
>
> 2. Header Compression
> draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00
> New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks
>
> 3.=C2=A0 Security
> Personal information need to be secured,
>
> 4. Management
> draft-pelov-core-cosol-01
> draft-veillette-core-cool-01
> draft-somaraju-core-sid-00
>
> Regards
> Ana
> __________________= _____________________________
> lp-wan mailing list
> lp-wan@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

--089e01183bc8d0212b0530d38b12-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 03:17:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B5D12E164 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLc5Mo0fTXp9 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dash.upc.es (dash.upc.es [147.83.2.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0192C12E0F0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entelserver.upc.edu (entelserver.upc.es [147.83.39.4]) by dash.upc.es (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id u3JAH52O005090; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:17:06 +0200 Received: from webmail.entel.upc.edu (webmail.entel.upc.edu [147.83.39.6]) by entelserver.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087081D53C1; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:17:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 131.111.5.14 by webmail.entel.upc.edu with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:17:38 +0200 Message-ID: <149f09363151e25732f16348b6b3f791.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:17:38 +0200 From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" To: "Xavier Vilajosana" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.21-1.fc14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd X-Greylist: Delayed for 00:31:21 by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (dash.upc.es [147.83.2.50]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:17:06 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , lp-wan@ietf.org, josep.paradells@entel.upc.edu, jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:17:15 -0000 Hi Xavi, With regard to 15.4g, I think it would be helpful to understand which are the specific problems for this radio interface to support IPv6. In other words: is it possible (with reasonably acceptable performance) to run IPv6 over 15.4g by using existing functionality? If not, why not? Thanks! Carles > Hi, > > I add some points that may be of interest as well: > > 1)some LPWAN technologies support multihop and star of star topologies. We > should see if RPL+6LoRH or other routing protocols fit into them, (e.g in > 15.4g). > > 2)Inline with RFC6775 we need to explore efficient context distribution > approaches. > > 3) support to roaming. (WIND?) > > regards, > Xavi > > 2016-04-19 11:46 GMT+02:00 Carles Gomez Montenegro > : > >> Hi Ana, all, >> >> I am also in favor of creating a new IETF WG focusing on LPWAN issues. >> >> I think that support/optimization of IPv6 over LPWAN is the core >> functionality required to connect LPWAN devices to the Internet. In this >> area, LPWANs require a solution not as close to the RFC 4944/6282/6775 >> suite as the "IPv6 over foo" work done in the 6lo WG. In my opinion, the >> particular LWPAN challenges require going beyond 4944/6282/6775 (even if >> this suite may still be a basis in some aspects). In this regard, I >> think >> potential WG items could be: >> >> - Produce "IPv6 over LPWAN: Problem Statement" >> o Maybe including a description of upper layer issues as well >> (e.g. similar to RFC 4919). >> >> - Produce functionality to support IPv6 over LPWAN. We might define >> IPv6 >> over foo specifications for the target LPWAN technologies to >> consider, >> and/or we might specify rather generic blocks: >> >> o "Header Compression for IPv6 datagrams over LPWAN" (covering >> not >> only IPv6, but also headers of upper layer protocols such as >> UDP >> and CoAP) >> >> o "Fragmentation Mechanism for IPv6 over LPWAN" >> >> o "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Adaptation for LPWAN" >> >> There are also end-to-end reliability issues. For example, how should >> the >> CoAP RTO be configured? Should CoCoA be used in these scenarios? >> >> With regard to management, do the drafts listed below have a home >> already >> in the CoRE WG? (Just asking, with the aim to understand which would be >> the best home for this piece of work.) >> >> What do you think? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Carles >> >> >> > Hello again, >> > >> > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We >> need >> > to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which >> are >> > the subjects we want to study, >> > >> > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the >> WG, >> > please tell me which other you think we need to add. >> > >> > >> > 1. IPv6 >> > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 >> > IP End to End Communication >> > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation >> > ND will be configured in advanced >> > >> > 2. Header Compression >> > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 >> > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks >> > >> > 3. Security >> > Personal information need to be secured, >> > >> > 4. Management >> > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 >> > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 >> > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 >> > >> > Regards >> > Ana >> > _______________________________________________ >> > lp-wan mailing list >> > lp-wan@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:12:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B270C12EA6D for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wqtYsKJ0aeMl for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C5F212ED42 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247AB2002A; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57D46375A; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:12:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Thomas Watteyne In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:12:08 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Thomas Watteyne wrote: > So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the > LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note > that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that > "feature" of LPWAN should be lifted. okay, but is the goal to run IPv6 over LPWAN, or define a way to transport CoAP across the "last mile" without an IP layer? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBVxYuooCLcPvd0N1lAQL6kwf8D6DeNZq7e+BF9V55yac7Oz5cYYurpZbF sG+WFhHOivPCb+4DHqzosa0LLv1/a3bejQEwKSNZAAi/5Efbm0Qn6drnrzg+rjFg XypeHI0T8NmnIrNSAjd7meG7pGfW2HS32fvamzQrYG+gDAU1/NSqPB4IAjGZ8gY2 30SRWAt6na3VFn6O/9bdKpt5FjQpkPpD3vyrkT6L/UMW+sfYxboI8RmhpFdjG5cY n17KNEEG80ZIEi2HWlUzGnx2R1WlDe5JSgzOPQB18m6VJC8Mm8YAIfC1oG2Rsmd1 sLUCTMAyb25hsTPNPLHPkpamBntC+q1sBAOMaS04YNmQpZTO5grvJw== =ePWy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:17:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9013D12EC81 for ; 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Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:17:14 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:17:13 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:17:13 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Michael Richardson , Thomas Watteyne Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin Thread-Index: AQHRmj1ngpDwSz0dI0WE/Sf5RQw57Z+RRntA Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:17:00 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:16:39 +0000 Message-ID: <6578b4ff636c4952857b65747deca78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <25222.1461071525@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <25222.1461071525@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:17:17 -0000 Hopefully both, if the IP layer is implicit or encoded as a context :) Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Richardson > Sent: mardi 19 avril 2016 15:12 > To: Thomas Watteyne > Cc: Ana Minaburo ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Hannes > Tschofenig > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin >=20 >=20 > Thomas Watteyne wrote: > > So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest t= he > > LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please no= te > > that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that > > "feature" of LPWAN should be lifted. >=20 > okay, but is the goal to run IPv6 over LPWAN, or define a way to transpor= t > CoAP across the "last mile" without an IP layer? >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:57:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C3C12D1D0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDbTsji4WziV for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F98212D0B1 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8EE2002A; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1FA6375A; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:57:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" In-Reply-To: <6578b4ff636c4952857b65747deca78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <25222.1461071525@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6578b4ff636c4952857b65747deca78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig , Thomas Watteyne Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:57:33 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hopefully both, if the IP layer is implicit or encoded as a context :) Well, they are different problems, and my observation of much of LPWAN community is that they don't care that much about end-to-end IP at all, nor do they have an architecture that would work with even 6lo. But, one could have gateways that did all of the IPv6 layer work (responding/gatewaying/mapping EUIDs to LPWAN things) and simply transported CoAP. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBVxY5SICLcPvd0N1lAQKUnAf/brUeETxuThDbzYnV5QnnWg/wSXcyxR8p 1zp9gpwOR8uFWxCtfH3gcrp8lRlEjWjWsdEQiZsVEaMb8esqZnBtcIdGi+cFtCV9 jAQhKON+A+7oT6ywzzTkWwheRcu/31UKwzqJoZMywFIrCU8cqJ+bQJz4e3N9lA3T 7DF6H83BxIaIaT6wAJtWtgh+k1/8OQn7KxhMLcl7X0/m/3nxYMIwjc4Zhy0s0deh Mu64NeiCylIZChL4l0yDCWvJ8SSuJ9ei9PZc3JcDdv1o/A9r9DT7hhXDJQxRNA4r MsBog0DgWIvlKAGyPh935583AbXIuH7oNnIycyCzx1rBajR4cEQh5w== =+osU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:00:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6119912D8FC for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:00:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mail-udp-cl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MG0zLW6I6Aad for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E38CF12D937 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id e201so15074560wme.0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:00:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail-udp-cl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=mVytSPgaKv+HdV6/QWXWY36FhGHYAF5tj8KvOimI9qc=; b=1lCDrrCofwP4a2VSYhrOkBkAzqUkVEgNiGsonzzvb7kUMB4Hx7TYV8b1n06zZ0nKvc ey+tgDTOfqwouOZDt6tI47BNoCPPqhzroMRJcPDh1dJQXavQsaqi9YQzdVpNVKDAtp4c +wTMoaPslHTOxfgdgLYHRx2/poPc9DhyXiFUCpYrz+Ac4FhdLbGQKMuU1hjnBopqDY+z S9yrAtB6G5DtxfjjhdWD0cftmhBBE0tbmbfdqhMVEmf8ofKQMHlDgn9LIIGBp13v15bx RjyiucjnDpjcndNA3sS7qrscp703LccKX9oNjTKx03qSthJ8Qw/OE4C9+AVchxhKrQ6G Ihag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=mVytSPgaKv+HdV6/QWXWY36FhGHYAF5tj8KvOimI9qc=; b=TpLEPXDee6VdufSM20anI1kqcgKNgjaf49wFEvUqkAqbF0LmcycVmnxJeLkRj/Wfih +DJqdtSUHqpzS9PCYTsAURWwOW3dF7iBrpuoNEcHXeF9RwHQp81jS3aTNcfX6JQfsisk QjnGB3oAMai0mHFdPftnfltyJCTpxgLn74/dctPiETpy5DqMImSk0EYBbEzkuqKQLmzA oqvHNPMGZDsmg0smgcDsXtKVUUfGWjhcYCMN8UDq30AYu08jYq9GFG6Ct0mog2XeAnGN 2DNLzbU/Uoz5DV8JmQ941HY27P1lbGy2SWIvlpJbvG0VoRTlyo1sXR8nJ1k/4CZhODXL m6Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXFu0f/F7NNSMd7SE77HuSkJd3aDbcaKarJn+YhBqfm+X1PTAN5cSIqoRcm6HwJ/QpId8lcePHhh+q7Wg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.9.201 with SMTP id c9mr3361084wjb.7.1461074427183; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.146.207 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:00:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6578b4ff636c4952857b65747deca78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <25222.1461071525@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6578b4ff636c4952857b65747deca78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:00:27 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b45099839316b0530d6e642 Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , Michael Richardson , Hannes Tschofenig , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Thomas Watteyne Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:00:37 -0000 --047d7b45099839316b0530d6e642 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Every transmitted byte on an LPWAN becomes very expensive in terms of energy, and finally, network life. I agree that the standard IP layer does not directly fit on single-hop LPWANs, but the main idea here is to achieve interoperability with IP. I think IP should be present with different structures and mechanisms, which will be one of the main tasks for a LPWAN workgroup. Regards, Diego 2016-04-19 10:17 GMT-03:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) : > Hopefully both, if the IP layer is implicit or encoded as a context :) > > Pascal > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael > > Richardson > > Sent: mardi 19 avril 2016 15:12 > > To: Thomas Watteyne > > Cc: Ana Minaburo ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Hannes > > Tschofenig > > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin > > > > > > Thomas Watteyne wrote: > > > So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest > the > > > LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please > note > > > that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that > > > "feature" of LPWAN should be lifted. > > > > okay, but is the goal to run IPv6 over LPWAN, or define a way to > transport > > CoAP across the "last mile" without an IP layer? > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunic= aciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --047d7b45099839316b0530d6e642 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Every transmitted byte on an LPWAN becomes
very expensive= in terms of energy, and finally, network life. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
I agree that the standard IP layer= does not directly fit on single-hop
LPWANs, but the main idea here is = to achieve interoperability
with IP.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think IP should be present with different<= br>
structures and mechanisms, which will be one of the
main tasks for a LPWAN workgroup.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regards,

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Diego
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= br>

20= 16-04-19 10:17 GMT-03:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>:
Hopefully both, if the IP l= ayer is implicit or encoded as a context :)

Pascal


> -----Original Message-----
> From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Richardson
> Sent: mardi 19 avril 2016 15:12
> To: Thomas Watteyne <th= omas.watteyne@inria.fr>
> Cc: Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.= com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Hannes=
> Tschofenig <Hannes.Tsc= hofenig@arm.com>
> Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin
>
>
> Thomas Watteyne <thomas= .watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and= I strongly suggest the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an i= nitial set. Please note
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se sin= gle hop, so that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> "feature" of LPWAN should be lifted.=
>
> okay, but is the goal to run IPv6 over LPWAN, or define a way to trans= port
> CoAP across the "last mile" without an IP layer?
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+= IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>

_______________________= ________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



--
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3= =ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=AD= a UDP
www.ing= enieria.udp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125
--047d7b45099839316b0530d6e642-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:08:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6EF12D9EA for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:08:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=telecom-bretagne.eu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f3Dq5f5YqhOS for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr (zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr [192.108.117.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A49D12D1B8 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB58330225 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:08:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id DfxEGiyvagn3 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:08:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50AE3022A for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:08:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr B50AE3022A DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telecom-bretagne.eu; s=CFDC2CFA-4654-11E5-AACD-7BCC68B6580D; t=1461074897; bh=9tK8DX6ItB+keu6je3AYuVPGRTS2vv8lGc/nkHzHND8=; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To:Content-Type; b=wAEph4llR0KEhgnrw/BErUa0OxEWjCjtVOm1Fi9JSErjJc4+5i9vDcCbqYmBQIIxv hdp4HJTpmECCDItoiDAyiJUhJdLKpH0n+xGJ1kRph1uwZLf7gyvlTMLiPRkEU8CJ9R f7TgSJs5zbG+lvgHoFI5SF8YfpBUhb7HuRp8lxr4= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr Received: from zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id fo_wzzVk3d4u for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:08:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-yw0-f175.google.com (mail-yw0-f175.google.com [209.85.161.175]) by zproxy220.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D824301E7 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:08:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-yw0-f175.google.com with SMTP id g133so16019488ywb.2 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUv3ufpXTPLHlEDShdrObAin5K49XX3VHxkpnOT4LRcBhcDi6Isx1b2fopIAV3PSz6AKUN//mOuAHRuVA== X-Received: by 10.129.98.134 with SMTP id w128mr1894293ywb.198.1461074895941; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:08:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.32.136 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:07:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3280.1461074251@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <25222.1461071525@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6578b4ff636c4952857b65747deca78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3280.1461074251@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Laurent Toutain Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:07:35 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1146eeca29d61a0530d7020a Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Hannes Tschofenig , Thomas Watteyne Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:08:28 -0000 --001a1146eeca29d61a0530d7020a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, IPv6 connectivity is very important. If CoAP is used then the underlying protocol must be efficiently compressed, but when a node needs an IPv6 connectivity it must be possible and with the smaller cost. The architecture defined by the working group must cover all these cases. Laurent On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hopefully both, if the IP layer is implicit or encoded as a context > :) > > Well, they are different problems, and my observation of much of LPWAN > community is that they don't care that much about end-to-end IP at all, n= or > do they have an architecture that would work with even 6lo. > > But, one could have gateways that did all of the IPv6 layer work > (responding/gatewaying/mapping EUIDs to LPWAN things) and simply > transported > CoAP. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Laurent Toutain participez =C3=A0 l'enqu=C3=AAte / participate the survey Future of Internet? the survey | Futur d'Internet ? l'enqu=C3=AAte *https://goo.gl/JbWGcJ * +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne --------= ---+ | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 | Visit : | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 | http://class.touta.in | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ --001a1146eeca29d61a0530d7020a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

IPv6 connectivity is very important= . If CoAP is used then the underlying protocol must be efficiently compress= ed, but when a node needs an IPv6 connectivity it must be possible and with= the smaller cost. The architecture defined by the working group must cover= all these cases.

Laurent

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 3:57 P= M, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
=

Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthuber= t@cisco.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hopefully both, if the IP layer is implicit or encoded a= s a context :)

Well, they are different problems, and my observation of much of LPW= AN
community is that they don't care that much about end-to-end IP at all,= nor
do they have an architecture that would work with even 6lo.

But, one could have gateways that did all of the IPv6 layer work
(responding/gatewaying/mapping EUIDs to LPWAN things) and simply transporte= d
CoAP.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Laurent Toutain=C2=A0participez =C3=A0 l'enqu=C3=AAte / participate the survey
Future of Internet= ?=C2=A0the survey=C2=A0| Futur d'Internet ? =C2=A0l'enqu=C3=AAte=C2=A0= https://goo.gl/JbWGcJ
--001a1146eeca29d61a0530d7020a-- From nobody Thu Apr 21 05:44:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC7012DC65 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:44:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.b=XoNiyjXe; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=minaburo-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=B/jjA7bP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SehwKVIvauTz for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x244.google.com (mail-wm0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB18712DEED for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x244.google.com with SMTP id r12so9635327wme.0 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:44:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=Y2GOeBRDUizx62vzY24ZWDLM7P/+On3TMCN0dyNBalY=; b=XoNiyjXenUXEyXbZrr1OgwumFMnfaQY+GVbnxf14iGmJWjnsMzcIH9Xj6XePPSfJbu sz/OnpdyTOH+HGgKuFnORBGBLiMpLNnmFbpyj5He/DL6NBImeVyiqOpL2uEa5Oa2tB8V hFwks036+jjyo21F58I/PbiCZ0nsyi40OiXx6k7TCPwqYb9vbSFB/zNtlFtFB9sBBpxJ 7C+rT7u6tabZwNqGsRZmW1aXC7DGx5uXkXPRfbgpaW5jtt3jEyzlWdj12Hyz7SdapTuH 7zGkg+rtjBiUCQqK3uHg1Ojtw8Xn1XnumoP327aNV/VNmGLgiBrfTselDuT7t3alB9XL AmXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=minaburo-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=Y2GOeBRDUizx62vzY24ZWDLM7P/+On3TMCN0dyNBalY=; b=B/jjA7bPX2gNgDpVhjYDaOgwah2YjYUqvGX2lrWUztaYHQgs4t5Npwo1kOqqlEC2FV EEqD/trty8tNVWwTJDXlmB6zYErvDpSHaDT5cKaMzOPlcYQxNC1BBiBttDscWkzL8Ofk rJs0RLZ/C+NvM0sBjGnCJD50/f+VOcO2Jb601JCF0iMY4R0UP6Wtv2qauVfBnUejRDOA a0uyq+5eF+PC72iWG9JD+7sjGTG66J+HocVfRpvZ3czwEklXPP0OXuIanflCZ7qvsZ86 EJM9P+pKB/Xn/n8EN+WpPIICkTFJgk7ecWAhzep8I52zMb4VmdiPNZvqwZD8nayF/ekI mXaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y2GOeBRDUizx62vzY24ZWDLM7P/+On3TMCN0dyNBalY=; b=OlpCmJC9uk7yun9BlzZWSb1rr8ZrMP2D82nB2tYSMoBCMzhdtlwKLCa+TLB2Qjp3u6 Pa9lg/wkuEhCFc39r7cWHc/IK6vwLja+7GxDgbF/vzS/94XAjigg++QwovVJzU7Ak4uE jDR8koKna1h+zA1V+M5lNaL1wZ4q329VvPJbAHwaOPu0ZI9vpefjiIJcAW4H/l8OUnqc JGMBlADkF74Ou33sZazLvM08s2MOpTIcVkM9cnjsR7cGsiZiMLDo88j6KONyJsxwCSBN EP2ZS9HHOl78PyJVgKpw0k/rx36CnmXtlCL8DtZEyElF+KABpJ73uwVd+DksbawU7vbR Wr9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWuwgj+pgt9sI8R9xa/g0BNwta9B5pDp72qenSDpCHiJib3dMlTNRjD9FhUSE/Z5P/fxifcG1dkdymz6g== X-Received: by 10.28.144.20 with SMTP id s20mr15844106wmd.12.1461242641472; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:44:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: anaminaburo@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.107.8 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:43:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ana Minaburo Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:43:41 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 78BLO0mIgIUno7pROf69_uBvTtE Message-ID: To: Thomas Watteyne Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1146a95c93628f0530fe1002 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:44:07 -0000 --001a1146a95c93628f0530fe1002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Thomas, Thank you for your input, I think we can discuss of which are the good technologies to study, but there is not a doubt about SIGFOX, as they have shown its interested. Ofcourse we can discuss about 802.15.4g and the difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN relations and differences but there are a good collaboration between them and IETF and we can take advantage of it. There is missing one technology, we can wait and start with this two approaches and see if LoRAWAN get into the group, or see if anyone of have a contect with them? Thanks Ana On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Thomas Watteyne wrote: > I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in the > area of LPWAN at the IETF. > > Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that was > going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial e-mail > in this thread. > > There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to > 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks about whether this w= as > the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether there was pull from th= e > entities defining that technology. Since then, representatives of compani= es > working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear > interest for the solutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others > speaking up. > > So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the > LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note tha= t > a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of > LPWAN should be lifted. > > My 2c. > > Thomas > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig < > Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: > >> Hi Ana, >> >> >> >> I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks= . >> >> >> >> Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work >> over these radio technologies. >> >> >> >> For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that so= me work >> is needed. >> >> >> >> Ciao >> >> Hannes >> >> >> >> *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ana >> Minaburo >> *Sent:* 18 April 2016 23:03 >> *To:* lp-wan@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin >> >> >> >> Hello again, >> >> >> >> Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We nee= d >> to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which a= re >> the subjects we want to study, >> >> >> >> I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG= , >> please tell me which other you think we need to add. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. IPv6 >> >> draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 >> >> IP End to End Communication >> >> IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation >> >> ND will be configured in advanced >> >> >> >> 2. Header Compression >> >> draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 >> >> New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks >> >> >> >> 3. Security >> >> Personal information need to be secured, >> >> >> >> 4. Management >> >> draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 >> >> draft-veillette-core-cool-01 >> >> draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Ana >> >> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy t= he >> information in any medium. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> > > > -- > _______________________________________ > > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH > > www.thomaswatteyne.com > _______________________________________ > --001a1146a95c93628f0530fe1002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Thomas,

Thank you for your input,= I think we can discuss of which are the good technologies to study, but th= ere is not a doubt about SIGFOX, as they have shown its interested. Ofcours= e we can discuss about 802.15.4g and the difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoW= PAN and LP-WAN relations and differences but there are a good collaboration= between them and IETF and we can take advantage of it. There is missing on= e technology, we can wait and start with this two approaches and see if LoR= AWAN get into the group, or see if anyone of have a contect with them?

Thanks
Ana

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Thomas= Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
I believe the BoF at Buenos = Aires indicated work needs to be done in the area of LPWAN at the IETF.

Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the techn= ology that was going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the i= nitial e-mail in this thread.

There was a clear consensu= s from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range technologies= . There were some remarks about whether this was the LPWAN group pushing ne= w technology, or whether there was pull from the entities defining that tec= hnology. Since then, representatives of companies working on SIGFOX and IEE= E802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the solutions= LPWAN could come up with. There may be others speaking up.

<= /div>
So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest= the LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note = that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "featur= e" of LPWAN should be lifted.

My 2c.

Thomas

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes = Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Ana,

=C2=A0

I would focus on the use = of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks.

=C2=A0

Device management approac= hes, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work over these radio technologi= es.

=C2=A0

For security I haven=E2= =80=99t seen a document that convinced me that some work is needed.

=C2=A0

Ciao=

Hannes

=C2=A0

From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo
Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03
To: lp-wan@ietf= .org
Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin=

=C2=A0

Hello again,

=C2=A0

Well in this message I would like to discuss the sco= pe of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let= 9;s agree about which are the subjects we want to study,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think the following points are vey important in or= der to create the WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. IPv6=C2=A0

draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00

IP End to End Communication

IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation=C2=A0<= /p>

ND will be configured in advanced

=C2=A0

2. Header Compression=C2=A0

draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00

New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks<= u>

=C2=A0

3.=C2=A0 Security

Personal information need to be secured,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

4. Management=C2=A0

draft-pelov-core-cosol-01

draft-veillette-core-cool-01

draft-somaraju-core-sid-00

=C2=A0

Regards

Ana

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan


<= br clear=3D"all">

--
_______________________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD<= /font>
Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng,= Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, I= ETF 6TiSCH

________________________________= _______

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Except for those items where there is not WG like Header Compression or other. Thanks Ana On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Carles Gomez Montenegro < carlesgo@entel.upc.edu> wrote: > Hi Ana, all, > > I am also in favor of creating a new IETF WG focusing on LPWAN issues. > > I think that support/optimization of IPv6 over LPWAN is the core > functionality required to connect LPWAN devices to the Internet. In this > area, LPWANs require a solution not as close to the RFC 4944/6282/6775 > suite as the "IPv6 over foo" work done in the 6lo WG. In my opinion, the > particular LWPAN challenges require going beyond 4944/6282/6775 (even if > this suite may still be a basis in some aspects). In this regard, I think > potential WG items could be: > > - Produce "IPv6 over LPWAN: Problem Statement" > o Maybe including a description of upper layer issues as well > (e.g. similar to RFC 4919). > > - Produce functionality to support IPv6 over LPWAN. We might define IPv6 > over foo specifications for the target LPWAN technologies to consider, > and/or we might specify rather generic blocks: > > o "Header Compression for IPv6 datagrams over LPWAN" (covering not > only IPv6, but also headers of upper layer protocols such as UDP > and CoAP) > > o "Fragmentation Mechanism for IPv6 over LPWAN" > > o "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Adaptation for LPWAN" > > There are also end-to-end reliability issues. For example, how should the > CoAP RTO be configured? Should CoCoA be used in these scenarios? > > With regard to management, do the drafts listed below have a home already > in the CoRE WG? (Just asking, with the aim to understand which would be > the best home for this piece of work.) > > What do you think? > > Thanks! > > Carles > > > > Hello again, > > > > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need > > to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which > are > > the subjects we want to study, > > > > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG, > > please tell me which other you think we need to add. > > > > > > 1. IPv6 > > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 > > IP End to End Communication > > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation > > ND will be configured in advanced > > > > 2. Header Compression > > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 > > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks > > > > 3. Security > > Personal information need to be secured, > > > > 4. Management > > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 > > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 > > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 > > > > Regards > > Ana > > _______________________________________________ > > lp-wan mailing list > > lp-wan@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > > --001a1146a95ccc82e30530fe1342 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Thank you for your input, nevert= heless even if the LP-WAN group is created I believe that the work related = to CoRE needs to be done there as CooL/COMI, CoAP, etc and the work about I= Pv6 needs to be done in v6OPS but what we need to do here is to study these= problems for LP-WAN and bring them to the other WG and not to do them here= directly. Except for those items where there is not WG like Header Compres= sion or other.

Thanks
Ana

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016= at 11:46 AM, Carles Gomez Montenegro <carlesgo@entel.upc.edu>= wrote:
Hi Ana, all,

I am also in favor of creating a new IETF WG focusing on LPWAN issues.

I think that support/optimization of IPv6 over LPWAN is the core
functionality required to connect LPWAN devices to the Internet. In this area, LPWANs require a solution not as close to the RFC 4944/6282/6775
suite as the "IPv6 over foo" work done in the 6lo WG. In my opini= on, the
particular LWPAN challenges require going beyond 4944/6282/6775 (even if this suite may still be a basis in some aspects). In this regard, I think potential WG items could be:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Produce "IPv6 over LPWAN: Problem Statement"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Maybe including a description of upper l= ayer issues as well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (e.g. similar to RFC 4919).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Produce functionality to support IPv6 over LPWAN. We might d= efine IPv6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over foo specifications for the target LPWAN technologi= es to consider,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and/or we might specify rather generic blocks:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 "Header Compression for IPv6 datagr= ams over LPWAN" (covering not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only IPv6, but also headers of upp= er layer protocols such as UDP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and CoAP)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 "Fragmentation Mechanism for IPv6 o= ver LPWAN"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Adaptation= for LPWAN"

There are also end-to-end reliability issues. For example, how should the CoAP RTO be configured? Should CoCoA be used in these scenarios?

With regard to management, do the drafts listed below have a home already in the CoRE WG?=C2=A0 (Just asking, with the aim to understand which would = be
the best home for this piece of work.)

What do you think?

Thanks!

Carles


> Hello again,
>
> Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We n= eed
> to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about w= hich are
> the subjects we want to study,
>
> I think the following points are vey important in order to create the = WG,
> please tell me which other you think we need to add.
>
>
> 1. IPv6
> draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00
> IP End to End Communication
> IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation
> ND will be configured in advanced
>
> 2. Header Compression
> draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00
> New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks
>
> 3.=C2=A0 Security
> Personal information need to be secured,
>
> 4. Management
> draft-pelov-core-cosol-01
> draft-veillette-core-cool-01
> draft-somaraju-core-sid-00
>
> Regards
> Ana
> __________________= _____________________________
> lp-wan mailing list
> lp-wan@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >



--001a1146a95ccc82e30530fe1342-- From nobody Thu Apr 21 06:39:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C7212DA8A for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:39:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=actility.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQQwEAtp1GHj for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9070012D19B for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id t129so98351029vkg.2 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:39:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=actility.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=vuINsmiHtu974cHiqcevNx4PCobPFGho6sH2nvqIyV0=; b=HFqW0ikccn6b+ta5/77pvx0Fi2uJ8zSSiTFRPeY3z4EiyI/cTjZqLs1OuTjqBc53A+ NIBJmNWSR6/5+1KC10Uilubg22LXLN9jG3u148auEgcGvqZPc4XY5u45UE09x7KuYzoz Vzc4eRDF4JCBT6O7fYw3Lzys2VvrP5juZjhPM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=vuINsmiHtu974cHiqcevNx4PCobPFGho6sH2nvqIyV0=; b=LzZoBeb0kKk2khEgW1T3QKu2izA/y8wKU7SzqfBELK0vH2a3BxOlEEkPcnoHlXM6Hw p+CubTPFUVx4uVMCk+1Y5AvAYFyxl4x3YH+AlNCGEa8w522ZfkYLZJFSAzq84giCP12U o4AfGk01pc7kM3yFD1ZAQ8JvQ70pha/5WbknhjgTbKGuoVDj1+lEV1HzoSJgayv56NWa jH+j/x+1S/oN40jcRDIqTA0s8y82Ia4XekIwjtmnFpL9ZprErf0vYrvPg/iSffl5uSwt 8eWD/qPJLwgLgUPaFevjUfgmE+EbYbgHhxDGMsOTtETwn0loov9Ln9yue6MEtVyNxJGi e4+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUjKUSV3vVk576fUS6g6J3oXfitSWqtyVb52KPrtNFQNN+gITuyEey08szOrF62sgl/hxuIYvVZfEzxWeew MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.141.2 with SMTP id p2mr7997265vkd.37.1461245947644; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.40.6 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:39:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:39:07 +0300 Message-ID: From: Alper Yegin To: Ana Minaburo Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11426040a3c1e20530fed525 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig , Thomas Watteyne Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:39:12 -0000 --001a11426040a3c1e20530fed525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ana, folks, There is indeed interest on our side. Unfortunately, the last IETF meeting collided with a LoRa Alliance meeting, hence I couldn't attend the IETF LPWAN meeting, not even remotely. Cheers, Alper On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Ana Minaburo wrote: > Hello Thomas, > > Thank you for your input, I think we can discuss of which are the good > technologies to study, but there is not a doubt about SIGFOX, as they hav= e > shown its interested. Ofcourse we can discuss about 802.15.4g and the > difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN relations and difference= s > but there are a good collaboration between them and IETF and we can take > advantage of it. There is missing one technology, we can wait and start > with this two approaches and see if LoRAWAN get into the group, or see if > anyone of have a contect with them? > > Thanks > Ana > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Thomas Watteyne > wrote: > >> I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in the >> area of LPWAN at the IETF. >> >> Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that was >> going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial e-mai= l >> in this thread. >> >> There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN t= o >> 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks about whether this = was >> the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether there was pull from t= he >> entities defining that technology. Since then, representatives of compan= ies >> working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clea= r >> interest for the solutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others >> speaking up. >> >> So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the >> LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note th= at >> a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of >> LPWAN should be lifted. >> >> My 2c. >> >> Thomas >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig < >> Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Ana, >>> >>> >>> >>> I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area >>> networks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would wor= k >>> over these radio technologies. >>> >>> >>> >>> For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that s= ome work >>> is needed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ciao >>> >>> Hannes >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ana >>> Minaburo >>> *Sent:* 18 April 2016 23:03 >>> *To:* lp-wan@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello again, >>> >>> >>> >>> Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We >>> need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about w= hich >>> are the subjects we want to study, >>> >>> >>> >>> I think the following points are vey important in order to create the >>> WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. IPv6 >>> >>> draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 >>> >>> IP End to End Communication >>> >>> IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation >>> >>> ND will be configured in advanced >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. Header Compression >>> >>> draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 >>> >>> New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks >>> >>> >>> >>> 3. Security >>> >>> Personal information need to be secured, >>> >>> >>> >>> 4. Management >>> >>> draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 >>> >>> draft-veillette-core-cool-01 >>> >>> draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Ana >>> >>> >>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the >>> information in any medium. Thank you. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> lp-wan mailing list >>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________ >> >> Thomas Watteyne, PhD >> Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria >> Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech >> Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN >> Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH >> >> www.thomaswatteyne.com >> _______________________________________ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --001a11426040a3c1e20530fed525 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ana, folks,

There is indeed inter= est on our side. Unfortunately, the last IETF meeting collided with a LoRa = Alliance meeting, hence I couldn't attend the IETF LPWAN meeting, not e= ven remotely.=C2=A0

Cheers,

Alper

 --001a11426040a3c1e20530fed525-- From nobody Thu Apr 21 08:46:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF8712EC85 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:46:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juKS-yQ4eEQ1 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (relay4-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D86F12EC7F for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:660:7301:3728:a811:cc14:16eb:8eca] (unknown [IPv6:2001:660:7301:3728:a811:cc14:16eb:8eca]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32E1117209C; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:46:32 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_22F99D2F-11B0-4B68-90A6-CD3FC2993728" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:46:25 +0200 Message-Id: References: To: Alper Yegin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig , Thomas Watteyne Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:46:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_22F99D2F-11B0-4B68-90A6-CD3FC2993728 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Alper, It=E2=80=99s great that you are interested in our work! We=E2=80=99ll be = glad to have you on-board for the next IETF meeting in Berlin. Would you = be able to attend?=20 Best, Alexander > Le 21 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 15:39, Alper Yegin a = =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Hello Ana, folks, >=20 > There is indeed interest on our side. Unfortunately, the last IETF = meeting collided with a LoRa Alliance meeting, hence I couldn't attend = the IETF LPWAN meeting, not even remotely.=20 >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Alper >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Ana Minaburo > wrote: > Hello Thomas, >=20 > Thank you for your input, I think we can discuss of which are the good = technologies to study, but there is not a doubt about SIGFOX, as they = have shown its interested. Ofcourse we can discuss about 802.15.4g and = the difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN relations and = differences but there are a good collaboration between them and IETF and = we can take advantage of it. There is missing one technology, we can = wait and start with this two approaches and see if LoRAWAN get into the = group, or see if anyone of have a contect with them? >=20 > Thanks > Ana >=20 > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Thomas Watteyne = > wrote: > I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in = the area of LPWAN at the IETF. >=20 > Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that = was going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial = e-mail in this thread. >=20 > There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN = to 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks about whether = this was the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether there was = pull from the entities defining that technology. Since then, = representatives of companies working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g = technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the solutions LPWAN = could come up with. There may be others speaking up. >=20 > So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the = LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note = that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" = of LPWAN should be lifted. >=20 > My 2c. >=20 > Thomas >=20 > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = > wrote: > Hi Ana, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area = networks. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would = work over these radio technologies. >=20 > =20 >=20 > For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that = some work is needed. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Ciao >=20 > Hannes >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo > Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03 > To: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin >=20 > =20 >=20 > Hello again, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We = need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about = which are the subjects we want to study,=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the = WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > 1. IPv6=20 >=20 > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 >=20 > IP End to End Communication >=20 > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation=20 >=20 > ND will be configured in advanced >=20 > =20 >=20 > 2. Header Compression=20 >=20 > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 >=20 > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks >=20 > =20 >=20 > 3. Security >=20 > Personal information need to be secured,=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > 4. Management=20 >=20 > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 >=20 > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 >=20 > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards >=20 > Ana >=20 > =20 >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > _______________________________________ >=20 > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH >=20 > www.thomaswatteyne.com > _______________________________________ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --Apple-Mail=_22F99D2F-11B0-4B68-90A6-CD3FC2993728 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Alper,

It=E2=80=99s great that you are interested in our work! = We=E2=80=99ll be glad to have you on-board for the next IETF meeting in = Berlin. Would you be able to attend? 

Best,
Alexander




Le 21 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 15:39, Alper Yegin <alper.yegin@actility.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Hello Ana, folks,

There is indeed interest on our side. Unfortunately, the last = IETF meeting collided with a LoRa Alliance meeting, hence I couldn't = attend the IETF LPWAN meeting, not even remotely. 

Cheers,

Alper


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, = Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com> wrote:
Hello Thomas,

Thank you for your input, I think we can discuss of which are = the good technologies to study, but there is not a doubt about SIGFOX, = as they have shown its interested. Ofcourse we can discuss about = 802.15.4g and the difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN = relations and differences but there are a good collaboration between = them and IETF and we can take advantage of it. There is missing one = technology, we can wait and start with this two approaches and see if = LoRAWAN get into the group, or see if anyone of have a contect with = them?

Thanks
Ana

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, = Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated = work needs to be done in the area of LPWAN at the IETF.

Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires = was about the technology that was going to be addressed; that discussion = is missing from the initial e-mail in this thread.

There was a clear consensus from the = room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range technologies. There = were some remarks about whether this was the LPWAN group pushing new = technology, or whether there was pull from the entities defining that = technology. Since then, representatives of companies working on SIGFOX = and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the = solutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others speaking = up.

So I = believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the LPWAN = group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note that a = IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of = LPWAN should be lifted.

My 2c.

Thomas

On Tue, Apr 19, = 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Ana,

 

I would focus on the use of IPv6 over = these low power wide area networks.

 

Device management approaches, OMA = LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work over these radio technologies.

 

For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a = document that convinced me that some work is needed.

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo
Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03
To: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at = Berlin

 

Hello again,

 

Well in this message I would like = to discuss the scope of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we = want to work in. Let's agree about which are the subjects we want to = study, 

 

I think the following points are = vey important in order to create the WG, please tell me which other you = think we need to add.

 

 

1. IPv6 

draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00

IP End to End Communication

IPv6 MTU requires = fragmentation 

ND will be configured in = advanced

 

2. Header Compression 

draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00

New Mechanism adapted to = challenged networks

 

3.  Security

Personal information need to be = secured, 

 

4. Management 

draft-pelov-core-cosol-01

draft-veillette-core-cool-01

draft-somaraju-core-sid-00

 

Regards

Ana

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
=



--
_______________________________________

Thomas = Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist & = Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking = Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder & = co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF = 6TiSCH

www.thomaswatteyne.com
_______________________________________


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
=






_______________________________________________
lp-wan = mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

= --Apple-Mail=_22F99D2F-11B0-4B68-90A6-CD3FC2993728-- From nobody Thu Apr 21 14:12:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3912612E50B for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:12:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=actility.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OdaqzM0Gl2bF for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C23D12DC18 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id e185so113183362vkb.1 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=actility.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=dXAsX4w0infCexsDHJSpMnI3cgNqJ7QvHIkppkSg58A=; b=ZIZ17/WA3CQelMLxQpbwwQZRtxviDIHjZivj3nQPe2GuL6OwhU6LP7NA7blZjBEg// oxJZDX80PTJL8+qJhb3TFH5ImVv8qSue9Fm90FF8plCdnge1VmFew/yqE30DHc+l9CWE 8NuI0xZEWH/vzGd1a6/qOF5La71IzqtmtI1A0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=dXAsX4w0infCexsDHJSpMnI3cgNqJ7QvHIkppkSg58A=; b=Xyvf1MBiXXLmJpQVAZYi0iKT5FEa6AoURmS1KkaW2RuLC1I60/lz1PHNExlYfp49yw iOsLboM0dJAEOMlvY57mh3xHD4k/FBi7q/G7aQb0uQt//GtrGtEkdVzPrKcgOE4BWTA4 kIg3zWrrAjFeWSMiS7O0GFHvKz3V6oY030fXp1X6/x3rKGasY+/Hnq8PEKXR3/bxstSr dJVZbfv4w2KCYG7VMdara7L7ZbrkZk//+M5Yr7lGET1VFMQintAV7vGC51upx+pAfZEL KU0FWMpJVsSMz1+KWca3ERd+8n/UUnyilxZa6dzoDhJ4RUI4ZM5yEgDnWirQKTEUSVN/ 6PJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXQR5PkfcbhV9q/D0tyVK0cxfBdMn8a8tSW8NRsxaMHSmiJFZZRX1LeA4f/C1gjU6/XQIwU7TGgWPGtq85B MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.92.137 with SMTP id q131mr7716724vkb.35.1461272556895; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.40.6 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:02:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 00:02:36 +0300 Message-ID: From: Alper Yegin To: Alexander Pelov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114cf318ac997205310507dd Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig , Thomas Watteyne Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:12:31 -0000 --001a114cf318ac997205310507dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Alexander, > It=E2=80=99s great that you are interested in our work! We=E2=80=99ll be = glad to have you > on-board for the next IETF meeting in Berlin. > Thank you :-) > Would you be able to attend? > > I'm planning to. Alper > Best, > Alexander > > > > > Le 21 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 15:39, Alper Yegin a = =C3=A9crit : > > Hello Ana, folks, > > There is indeed interest on our side. Unfortunately, the last IETF meetin= g > collided with a LoRa Alliance meeting, hence I couldn't attend the IETF > LPWAN meeting, not even remotely. > > Cheers, > > Alper > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Ana Minaburo wrote: > >> Hello Thomas, >> >> Thank you for your input, I think we can discuss of which are the good >> technologies to study, but there is not a doubt about SIGFOX, as they ha= ve >> shown its interested. Ofcourse we can discuss about 802.15.4g and the >> difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN relations and differenc= es >> but there are a good collaboration between them and IETF and we can take >> advantage of it. There is missing one technology, we can wait and start >> with this two approaches and see if LoRAWAN get into the group, or see i= f >> anyone of have a contect with them? >> >> Thanks >> Ana >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Thomas Watteyne < >> thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in th= e >>> area of LPWAN at the IETF. >>> >>> Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that wa= s >>> going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial e-ma= il >>> in this thread. >>> >>> There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN >>> to 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks about whether t= his >>> was the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether there was pull f= rom >>> the entities defining that technology. Since then, representatives of >>> companies working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, >>> expressing clear interest for the solutions LPWAN could come up with. T= here >>> may be others speaking up. >>> >>> So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the >>> LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note t= hat >>> a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of >>> LPWAN should be lifted. >>> >>> My 2c. >>> >>> Thomas >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig < >>> Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ana, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area >>>> networks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would >>>> work over these radio technologies. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that = some work >>>> is needed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ciao >>>> >>>> Hannes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ana >>>> Minaburo >>>> *Sent:* 18 April 2016 23:03 >>>> *To:* lp-wan@ietf.org >>>> *Subject:* [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello again, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We >>>> need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about = which >>>> are the subjects we want to study, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think the following points are vey important in order to create the >>>> WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. IPv6 >>>> >>>> draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 >>>> >>>> IP End to End Communication >>>> >>>> IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation >>>> >>>> ND will be configured in advanced >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2. Header Compression >>>> >>>> draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 >>>> >>>> New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 3. Security >>>> >>>> Personal information need to be secured, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. Management >>>> >>>> draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 >>>> >>>> draft-veillette-core-cool-01 >>>> >>>> draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Ana >>>> >>>> >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose th= e >>>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy= the >>>> information in any medium. Thank you. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> lp-wan mailing list >>>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _______________________________________ >>> >>> Thomas Watteyne, PhD >>> Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria >>> Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech >>> Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN >>> Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH >>> >>> www.thomaswatteyne.com >>> _______________________________________ >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > --=20 *Alper E. Yegin* Head of Standards, Actility Chair of Security Task Force, LoRa Alliance Vice-Chair of Strategy Committee, LoRa Alliance +90 533 348 24 02 --001a114cf318ac997205310507dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Alexander,


It=E2=80=99s great that you a= re interested in our work! We=E2=80=99ll be glad to have you on-board for t= he next IETF meeting in Berlin.

Thank you :-)
=C2=A0
Would you be able to attend?=C2=A0
=


I'm planning to.<= /div>

Alper


=C2= =A0
Best,
Alexander




Le 21 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 15:39, Alper Yegin <alper.yegin@actility.com>= ; a =C3=A9crit :

Hello Ana, folks,

<= /div>
There is indeed interest on our side. Unfortunately, the last IET= F meeting collided with a LoRa Alliance meeting, hence I couldn't atten= d the IETF LPWAN meeting, not even remotely.=C2=A0

Cheers,

Alper


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM,= Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com> wrote:
Hello Thomas,

Thank you f= or your input, I think we can discuss of which are the good technologies to= study, but there is not a doubt about SIGFOX, as they have shown its inter= ested. Ofcourse we can discuss about 802.15.4g and the difference between 6= tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN relations and differences but there are a good= collaboration between them and IETF and we can take advantage of it. There= is missing one technology, we can wait and start with this two approaches = and see if LoRAWAN get into the group, or see if anyone of have a contect w= ith them?

Thanks
Ana
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Thomas Wattey= ne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires i= ndicated work needs to be done in the area of LPWAN at the IETF.
=
Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology t= hat was going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial = e-mail in this thread.

There was a clear consensus from = the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range technologies. There= were some remarks about whether this was the LPWAN group pushing new techn= ology, or whether there was pull from the entities defining that technology= . Since then, representatives of companies working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15= .4g technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the solutions LPWAN = could come up with. There may be others speaking up.

So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the LP= WAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note that a = IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature"= of LPWAN should be lifted.

My 2c.

<= /div>
Thomas

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Ana,

= =C2=A0

I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area netwo= rks.

= =C2=A0

Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would w= ork over these radio technologies.

= =C2=A0

For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that= some work is needed.

= =C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

=C2=A0

From: lp-wan= [mailto:lp-wa= n-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo
Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03
To: lp-wan@ietf= .org
Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin=

=C2=A0

Hello again,

=C2=A0

Well in this message I would like to discuss th= e scope of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. L= et's agree about which are the subjects we want to study,=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

I think the following points are vey important = in order to create the WG, please tell me which other you think we need to = add.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. IPv6=C2=A0

draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00

IP End to End Communication

IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation=C2=A0=

ND will be configured in advanced=

=C2=A0

2. Header Compression=C2=A0

draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00<= /u>

New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks=

=C2=A0

3.=C2=A0 Security

Personal information need to be secured,=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

4. Management=C2=A0

draft-pelov-core-cosol-01

draft-veillette-core-cool-01

draft-somaraju-core-sid-00

=C2=A0

Regards

Ana

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



=

--
_________________= ______________________

= Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scien= tist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
F= ounder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH<= /div>
_______________________________________
=


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan







_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
<= a href=3D"mailto:lp-wan@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lp-wan@ietf.org
= = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com= > wrote:
H= ello Thomas,

Thank you for your input, I think we can di= scuss of which are the good technologies to study, but there is not a doubt= about SIGFOX, as they have shown its interested. Ofcourse we can discuss a= bout 802.15.4g and the difference between 6tisch/6lo/6LoWPAN and LP-WAN rel= ations and differences but there are a good collaboration between them and = IETF and we can take advantage of it. There is missing one technology, we c= an wait and start with this two approaches and see if LoRAWAN get into the = group, or see if anyone of have a contect with them?

Thanks
Ana

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM= , Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
I believe the BoF at= Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in the area of LPWAN at the I= ETF.

Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about t= he technology that was going to be addressed; that discussion is missing fr= om the initial e-mail in this thread.

There was a clear = consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range tech= nologies. There were some remarks about whether this was the LPWAN group pu= shing new technology, or whether there was pull from the entities defining = that technology. Since then, representatives of companies working on SIGFOX= and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the s= olutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others speaking up.

So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly= suggest the LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Plea= se note that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that &quo= t;feature" of LPWAN should be lifted.

My 2c.<= /div>

Thomas

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tscho= fenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Ana,

=C2=A0

I would focus on the use = of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks.

=C2=A0

Device management approac= hes, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work over these radio technologi= es.

=C2=A0

For security I haven=E2= =80=99t seen a document that convinced me that some work is needed.

=C2=A0

Ciao=

Hannes

=C2=A0

From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo
Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03
To: lp-wan@ietf= .org
Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin=

=C2=A0

Hello again,

=C2=A0

Well in this message I would like to discuss the sco= pe of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let= 9;s agree about which are the subjects we want to study,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think the following points are vey important in or= der to create the WG, please tell me which other you think we need to add.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. IPv6=C2=A0

draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00

IP End to End Communication

IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation=C2=A0<= /p>

ND will be configured in advanced

=C2=A0

2. Header Compression=C2=A0

draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00

New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks<= u>

=C2=A0

3.=C2=A0 Security

Personal information need to be secured,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

4. Management=C2=A0

draft-pelov-core-cosol-01

draft-veillette-core-cool-01

draft-somaraju-core-sid-00

=C2=A0

Regards

Ana

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



=

--
_________________= ______________________

= Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scien= tist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
F= ounder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH<= /div>
_______________________________________
<= /div>


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan










--
Alper E.= Yegin
Head of Standards, Actility
Chair of Security Task Force, LoRa Alliance=
Vice-Chair of Strategy Committee, LoRa Alliance=
+90 533 348 24 02


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Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin Thread-Index: AQHRmbXNIDkVs0kYFEKulRmaEDoOIp+Q4xTwgABZ3wCABHLfMA== Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:11:31 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:10:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c65d8ef9c99e41c9b9408c9d06da2f2cXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:11:48 -0000 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XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:07:19 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AdGeEODxYfOKK4NnTVKT5kcUbWCEsQ== Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:07:05 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:06:51 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_cfbb1fd2478747c98c139036f1b51939XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:07:25 -0000 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DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DdG1J9OJSC96 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 03:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2ACC12D10C for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 03:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3299; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461492560; x=1462702160; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=m/XWKrIyHNFCgSu7jUZFuA28yxFKTrcWtl4DfSsBZl8=; b=YY8yxS92hFohNvpFQ20gTZ23gLiJqgDge7Uw1uUDJekZcADQBvxgJBFv HVfaHTEPDVk8LHkhWjvKx5HLW+rzEc2S+4FBkIHjTZhPq3d7cFI4gWB7e xSFgBnPlfE5jENorEz/RVfYCF3+x5BRtBeD4ktO5zmbhYEePTi0UXbiV/ E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AiAgDqmRxX/4cNJK1egziBVrluAQ2Bd?= =?us-ascii?q?YcnOBQBAQEBAQEBZRwLhEg6NxoBPkImAQQbE4gPn3WgHwELAR2GIYNJhQsahXI?= =?us-ascii?q?Fh3SFX4o8AY4NgW2ETYhdjy4BHgEBQoNriWh/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,526,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="99950469" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Apr 2016 10:09:19 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3OA9JeU009207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:09:19 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:09:19 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:09:19 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: proposed charter: comments please! Thread-Index: AdGeERPG4e4HDOr6TQ6Wn8oov6kjGQ== Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:09:03 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:08:17 +0000 Message-ID: <009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:09:22 -0000 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging under t= he generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety of technologies is already proposed on the market, a number of common characteristics can b= e gathered, which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireless = IOT applications. Those common family traits include ultra-low bitrate, frames = size, and very rare transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range and battery lifetime.=20 Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and ver= y specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the=20 application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deploym= ents, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access techn= ology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystem= s, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee th= e=20 interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manageme= nt and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribu= te by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technology to secure = the operations and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on select= ed 1 to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation with the related b= odies to ensure that real demands are being served and the proposed solutions are applicable.=20 The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA netwo= rks directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new standards work to optim= ize IPv6 operations to the device. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over = LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and related flows to install the related s= tate at the end compression points; the work will also include, for selected=20 technologies, specific Standard Track documents to carry the required encod= ing over the air. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document is that is deemed necessary. From nobody Sun Apr 24 03:30:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF11E12D17C for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 03:30:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id muHzVGQihTE4 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 03:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1on0704.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe00::704]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C09FB12B057 for ; 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HE1PR03MB1484; 5:KkG8aTtHKVcp4anY43VyW69WhKTIsEqkM2b7huuEqou1JzPdMcx/vk5yxEeiK26iYliTFo9SKNiFDoYffd8m5BbVC3c1+Jn549KgEHcBNjs0RtHYp8T7iCVWCu9P4bM7/bS6VGfNt3qKYdhHaeusQQ==; 24:TiZMmno7jnRcpjnBXakRpoZwE3Y3PUI3scI75xOKYjImY6ZDYPmYoP6ZMeI+DwG9k7C8DM8vf+89FVf7QMCLoWf7I3Hw5qWOftgf/A4M0Jw=; 7:oXtHus17d197LvP6Mky56+alcgUhjKXZH8r1DNjwtE3eeMqZQmOPhv6B9fu/iNtgB9XC8Q1/iwPurTh62m5ViVkxclURQv8aEWXZoKI2e7O22oGB3x521eLM/WWWeGTgmJgQKee82UqEtHIkf3LQvA4tDn3Olb7dR1vmaBZ6ma2vMLxnYrWv8pRNA12A2/BA SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: kcl.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2016 10:30:25.8296 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR03MB1484 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:30:56 -0000 Pascal, that has come a long way after our discussions right after my ETSI keynote on the death of Zigbee a few years back ... :) The charter reads well. A few minor comments: - replace "and propose technology" by "and propose technologies"or "and propose a technology" - remove "1 to 3" - replace "is that" by "if that" Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. ______________________________________ Prof Mischa Dohler Head, Centre for Telecom Research Chair Professor, King's College London Fellow & Distinguished Lecturer, IEEE Board of Directors, Worldsensing Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT www.mischadohler.com ______________________________________ On 24/04/2016 11:09, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging under the > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety of technologies > is already proposed on the market, a number of common characteristics can be > gathered, which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireless IOT > applications. Those common family traits include ultra-low bitrate, frames size, > and very rare transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range and > battery lifetime. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and very > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deployments, > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access technology > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystems, > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for management > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technology to secure the > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on selected 1 > to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation with the related bodies > to ensure that real demands are being served and the proposed solutions are > applicable. > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for IETF > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA networks > directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new standards work to optimize > IPv6 operations to the device. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > Work Items: > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but will > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG data > model to enable the compression, and related flows to install the related state > at the end compression points; the work will also include, for selected > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to carry the required encoding > over the air. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard > Track document is that is deemed necessary. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Sun Apr 24 04:16:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8DF12D13A for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 04:16:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3sS9a5SBg9y for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 04:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (relay6-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3076212D0B8 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 04:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter35-d.gandi.net (mfilter35-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.166]) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72804FB886; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:16:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter35-d.gandi.net Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.198]) by mfilter35-d.gandi.net (mfilter35-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iLwQRf-dxyzt; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:16:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 10.58.1.144 Received: from webmail.gandi.net (webmail4-d.mgt.gandi.net [10.58.1.144]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2D1C7FB883; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:16:48 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:16:48 +0200 From: Alexander Pelov To: Mischa Dohler In-Reply-To: <571CA031.3040209@kcl.ac.uk> References: <009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CA031.3040209@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <91dc8e9cd6fb55a8d8efd00b4dd946b3@ackl.io> X-Sender: a@ackl.io User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 11:16:58 -0000 Dear Mischa, Thanks for the fast feedback! It is highly appreciated! Hope to meet you in Berlin for the next IETF! One of the main comments of the BoF in BA was that we need to do focused work on no more than 3 LPWA technologies. I think we should reflect this in our DNA from the start. We don't want to boil the ocean. For me, there are two main questions here - Do we adopt the 6TiSCH way of addressing LPWAs? - Do we like 6LPWA as a name of the group? I vote yes for the two questions. The first was summarized by Ana and discussed in length during the past week. On the second one - 6LPWA provides visibility both to the IETF and to the outside world. It is different enough from 6LoWPAN so that we don't risk any confusions. Best, Alexander Le 2016-04-24 12:30, Mischa Dohler a écrit : > Pascal, that has come a long way after our discussions right after my > ETSI keynote on the death of Zigbee a few years back ... :) > > The charter reads well. A few minor comments: > - replace "and propose technology" by "and propose technologies"or > "and propose a technology" > - remove "1 to 3" > - replace "is that" by "if that" > > Thanks and with kind regards, > Mischa. > > ______________________________________ > > Prof Mischa Dohler > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > Chair Professor, King's College London > Fellow & Distinguished Lecturer, IEEE > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT > > www.mischadohler.com > ______________________________________ > > On 24/04/2016 11:09, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >> >> Background/Introduction: >> ------------------------ >> >> A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging >> under the >> generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety of >> technologies >> is already proposed on the market, a number of common characteristics >> can be >> gathered, which make these technologies unique and disruptive for >> wireless IOT >> applications. Those common family traits include ultra-low bitrate, >> frames size, >> and very rare transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range >> and >> battery lifetime. >> >> Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized >> and very >> specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and >> the >> application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed >> deployments, >> managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access >> technology >> to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. >> >> To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new >> ecosystems, >> there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will >> guarantee the >> interworking at the network layer and enable common components for >> management >> and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can >> contribute >> by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technology to >> secure the >> operations and manage the devices and their gateways. >> >> Description of Working Group: >> ----------------------------- >> >> The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on >> selected 1 >> to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation with the >> related bodies >> to ensure that real demands are being served and the proposed >> solutions are >> applicable. >> >> The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies >> for IETF >> consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA >> networks >> directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new standards work to >> optimize >> IPv6 operations to the device. >> >> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF >> Internet, >> Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >> >> Work Items: >> ----------- >> >> The group will: >> >> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing >> LPWA >> technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics >> but will >> not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> >> 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, >> highlighting >> potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these >> documents may >> eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >> >> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 >> over LPWA. >> Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic >> YANG data >> model to enable the compression, and related flows to install the >> related state >> at the end compression points; the work will also include, for >> selected >> technologies, specific Standard Track documents to carry the required >> encoding >> over the air. >> >> 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets >> over LPWA, >> either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new >> Standard >> Track document is that is deemed necessary. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Sun Apr 24 05:42:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBBA12D50F for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9X3JYRbI3cCV for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x236.google.com (mail-qg0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98F4312D507 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x236.google.com with SMTP id f92so22009982qgf.0 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=JziFQiHHJSZROuq/GTeobo0cL/wLhYA6O4wm6WMEJIA=; b=wbJcUPI3o3J1LVbK9AYv24YhvnBPVn5iVqw4PsBx7XibHDW6RfobhstLnf+yfUBlYo y+81S/bE1JkeLEaU2hjqzHmg2bXGT/rhE1xfdtKCoW7l/boIwaN9hK+DR1QxSpoCYp7P d9GB54Tcurw6zDu7v4ypJ6yIvAZBq2LhpOq56j1aUVtmTEHlWlc4711zpiTKhWN7BPE3 wEQKOPjfyyUhkeZDy+1iW9mWfuZfaO/UPJ3C1SmZ0tmh2q2YuXPP+vPg9Cl3U82jOvru FJkfhiMTOodlgARsFCEkkmZjeXsNul6RJxglilf0SjZOHGXlyGRR7dI+VTriCyWz79sZ CDYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=JziFQiHHJSZROuq/GTeobo0cL/wLhYA6O4wm6WMEJIA=; b=ZUh4DicOeET2hFhTttolENuTbapTuEPQ2MfZPJ9+BS55Hj/BkaX0a9HPgq7obiCMT1 1hSRyx429FPMWsy5qX4C9Bgfevveexc+vwxtzdGbplnPKsMX6y7N+kPXSIJAzAJ29ZlS Rv4HWs5q6rlx1hgiISm487lbwZOc9L44oMsFMzENYB4k4tkXE7S8ZTnKDCL5YERq335J b5gwAuzXvaqpDEgLC5l3asqFwOClaIFb2oArt69pGtYH30fPPqKouQpDy7EdxrEL+481 N+GRo3mQK5R7giAFAOlbeG10l/Q/Ds6NjPfrAjjco+eF+3FlOPKtePTTBugQcfQ35m+s Q2MA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWdv/6rDhsvVW6+FtIoaeLPSvRR7+3j4k2fl7br8PelpFFtTa32GWH9XmJ1Q8ON72DG X-Received: by 10.140.143.144 with SMTP id 138mr31495102qhp.25.1461501761526; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.14] (dsl.198.58.163.8.ebox.ca. [198.58.163.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g186sm5565225qke.49.2016.04.24.05.42.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 24 Apr 2016 05:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Juan Carlos Zuniga X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13E238) In-Reply-To: <91dc8e9cd6fb55a8d8efd00b4dd946b3@ackl.io> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:42:39 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CA031.3040209@kcl.ac.uk> <91dc8e9cd6fb55a8d8efd00b4dd946b3@ackl.io> To: Alexander Pelov Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org, Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 12:42:47 -0000 Hi all, On Mischa's point of "1 to 3", even though I agree that this was the feedbac= k from the group in BA, it reads a little strange. How about removing "1 to 3" as suggested, but listing the three technologies= that were identified as examples of the specific technologies we want to ad= dress? - "... focusing on a limited number of selected technologies (e.g., TechA, T= echB, TechC), and will leverage cross-participation..." Best, Juan Carlos > On Apr 24, 2016, at 07:16, Alexander Pelov wrote: >=20 > Dear Mischa, >=20 > Thanks for the fast feedback! It is highly appreciated! Hope to meet you i= n Berlin for the next IETF! >=20 > One of the main comments of the BoF in BA was that we need to do focused w= ork on no more than 3 LPWA technologies. I think we should reflect this in o= ur DNA from the start. We don't want to boil the ocean. >=20 > For me, there are two main questions here > - Do we adopt the 6TiSCH way of addressing LPWAs? > - Do we like 6LPWA as a name of the group? >=20 > I vote yes for the two questions. The first was summarized by Ana and disc= ussed in length during the past week. On the second one - 6LPWA provides vis= ibility both to the IETF and to the outside world. It is different enough fr= om 6LoWPAN so that we don't risk any confusions. >=20 > Best, > Alexander >=20 >=20 > Le 2016-04-24 12:30, Mischa Dohler a =C3=A9crit : >> Pascal, that has come a long way after our discussions right after my >> ETSI keynote on the death of Zigbee a few years back ... :) >> The charter reads well. A few minor comments: >> - replace "and propose technology" by "and propose technologies"or >> "and propose a technology" >> - remove "1 to 3" >> - replace "is that" by "if that" >> Thanks and with kind regards, >> Mischa. >> ______________________________________ >> Prof Mischa Dohler >> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >> Chair Professor, King's College London >> Fellow & Distinguished Lecturer, IEEE >> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >> www.mischadohler.com >> ______________________________________ >>> On 24/04/2016 11:09, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>> 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >>> Background/Introduction: >>> ------------------------ >>> A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging unde= r the >>> generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety of technologi= es >>> is already proposed on the market, a number of common characteristics ca= n be >>> gathered, which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wirele= ss IOT >>> applications. Those common family traits include ultra-low bitrate, fram= es size, >>> and very rare transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range an= d >>> battery lifetime. >>> Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and v= ery >>> specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and th= e >>> application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed depl= oyments, >>> managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access te= chnology >>> to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. >>> To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosys= tems, >>> there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee= the >>> interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manag= ement >>> and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contr= ibute >>> by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technology to secu= re the >>> operations and manage the devices and their gateways. >>> Description of Working Group: >>> ----------------------------- >>> The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on sel= ected 1 >>> to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation with the relate= d bodies >>> to ensure that real demands are being served and the proposed solutions a= re >>> applicable. >>> The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies f= or IETF >>> consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA ne= tworks >>> directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new standards work to op= timize >>> IPv6 operations to the device. >>> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet= , >>> Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >>> Work Items: >>> ----------- >>> The group will: >>> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LP= WA >>> technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics bu= t will >>> not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >>> 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, highlight= ing >>> potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these document= s may >>> eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >>> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 ov= er LPWA. >>> Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YA= NG data >>> model to enable the compression, and related flows to install the relate= d state >>> at the end compression points; the work will also include, for selected >>> technologies, specific Standard Track documents to carry the required en= coding >>> over the air. >>> 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over= LPWA, >>> either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Stan= dard >>> Track document is that is deemed necessary. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> lp-wan mailing list >>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Sun Apr 24 06:50:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9834B12D522 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 06:50:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DLwWDKLco7yl for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 06:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD0412D520 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 06:50:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5281; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461505823; x=1462715423; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=hp69kdGyhQ2dkNuU6OP+6i7it5wCGfN5/+9ydsOIhL4=; b=VJgXDZEjLGfUMKc4CfVm1yGNdQaYGXNRafx5Gu27YG9Sbolh87Wvahsf 7IzVKXHIZ+nvTQqlFyhsxQCxgkKVAeuucBze316YZnBV2mSl+RHNaSxaw fXcCRs6/3hJFkOMfcVwxMNeJC4r8ptzBnAFUiTJfScOuRbLzsUuEWjQQH 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CIBQCmzhxX/5pdJa1eDoMqU30GuXyBd?= =?us-ascii?q?RcLhWwCgRQ5EwEBAQEBAQFlJ4RBAQEBBAEBATcPJQMUBAIBCBEEAQEBHgkHJws?= =?us-ascii?q?UCQgBAQQBEggTiA8OwAYBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVhiGDSYEChAkUB?= =?us-ascii?q?oVyBYd0hV+KPAGODYFthE2IXY8uASEBQIMwO2yIfH8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,527,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="265329752" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Apr 2016 13:50:22 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3ODoMgb005387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:50:22 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:50:21 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:50:21 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Mischa Dohler , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! Thread-Index: AdGeERPG4e4HDOr6TQ6Wn8oov6kjGQALRuSAAAOuCgA= Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:50:08 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:49:58 +0000 Message-ID: <1326bb5fc6c0464bafa4a47fad2fcd64@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CA031.3040209@kcl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <571CA031.3040209@kcl.ac.uk> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:50:25 -0000 Hello Mischa : ) Yes, we went through a lot, and that includes your eye-opener talk on LPWA = years back in Lyon as well ; )=20 The major change is that we now figured that it would take more than scatte= red work in existing WGs (e.g. 6lo) to contribute efficiently to the rise o= f this technology. Will you join/help us, should we get this WG formed? Thanks a bunch for the suggestions, I'll incorporate and repost. Cheers, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mischa Dohler > Sent: dimanche 24 avril 2016 12:30 > To: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! >=20 > Pascal, that has come a long way after our discussions right after my ETS= I > keynote on the death of Zigbee a few years back ... :) >=20 > The charter reads well. A few minor comments: > - replace "and propose technology" by "and propose technologies"or "and > propose a technology" > - remove "1 to 3" > - replace "is that" by "if that" >=20 > Thanks and with kind regards, > Mischa. >=20 > ______________________________________ >=20 > Prof Mischa Dohler > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > Chair Professor, King's College London > Fellow & Distinguished Lecturer, IEEE > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >=20 > www.mischadohler.com > ______________________________________ >=20 > On 24/04/2016 11:09, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging > > under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety > > of technologies is already proposed on the market, a number of common > > characteristics can be gathered, which make these technologies unique > > and disruptive for wireless IOT applications. Those common family > > traits include ultra-low bitrate, frames size, and very rare > > transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range and battery > lifetime. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized > > and very specific to each individual technology. There is no network > > layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to > > very silo'ed deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. > > Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding the > whole chain. > > > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > > ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that > > will guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common > > components for management and security, as well as shared application > > profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the > > devices, and propose technology to secure the operations and manage the > devices and their gateways. > > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on > > selected 1 to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation > > with the related bodies to ensure that real demands are being served > > and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies > > for IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology > > in LPWA networks directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new > > standards work to optimize > > IPv6 operations to the device. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF > > Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing > > LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common > > characteristics but will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > > > 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, > > highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; > > these documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 > over LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic > > YANG data model to enable the compression, and related flows to > > install the related state at the end compression points; the work will > > also include, for selected technologies, specific Standard Track > > documents to carry the required encoding over the air. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets > > over LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, > > or as new Standard Track document is that is deemed necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > lp-wan mailing list > > lp-wan@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Sun Apr 24 07:50:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032B212D543 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (173.37.102.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:50:23 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:50:22 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "Paul Duffy (paduffy)" , Mischa Dohler Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjg== Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:50:18 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:49:55 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:50:28 -0000 NkxQV0E6ICJJUHY2IG92ZXIgTG93LVBvd2VyIFdpZGUtQXJlYSBuZXR3b3JrcyIuDQoNCkJhY2tn cm91bmQvSW50cm9kdWN0aW9uOg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoNCkEgbmV3IGdl bmVyYXRpb24gb2YgTG93LXBvd2VyIGFuZCBMb3NzeSBOZXR3b3JrcyAoTExOcykgaGFzIGVtZXJn ZWQgdW5kZXIgdGhlDQpnZW5lcmljIG5hbWUgb2YgTG93LVBvd2VyIFdpZGUtQXJlYSAoTFBXQSku IEZyb20gdGhlIHZhcmlldHkgb2YgTFBXQSB0ZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgDQp0aGF0IGlzIGFscmVhZHkg cHJvcG9zZWQgaW4gdGhpcyBtYXJrZXQsIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIGNvbW1vbiBjaGFyYWN0ZXJpc3Rp Y3MgY2FuDQpiZSBnYXRoZXJlZCB3aGljaCBtYWtlIHRoZXNlIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyB1bmlxdWUg YW5kIGRpc3J1cHRpdmUgZm9yIHdpcmVsZXNzDQpJbnRlcm5ldCBvZiBUaGluZ3MgKElPVCkgYXBw bGljYXRpb25zLiANCg0KVGhvc2UgY29tbW9uIGZhbWlseSB0cmFpdHMgaW5jbHVkZSB1bHRyYSBs 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E=Sophos;i="5.24,528,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="97315217" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Apr 2016 14:53:23 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3OErND7029478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:23 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:53:22 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:53:22 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "Paul Duffy (paduffy)" , Mischa Dohler Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQ Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:17 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:26 -0000 Dear all Please note that by berlin, techX X in 1..3 will be identified, so a placeh= older is fine for now. Cheers, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > (pthubert) > Sent: dimanche 24 avril 2016 16:50 > To: Juan Carlos Zuniga ; Alexander Pelov = ; > Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; Mischa Dohler > > Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >=20 > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >=20 > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ >=20 > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged > under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety > of LPWA technologies that is already proposed in this market, a number of > common characteristics can be gathered which make these technologies > unique and disruptive for wireless Internet of Things (IOT) applications. >=20 > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame siz= es, > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. Thi= s > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplif= ies > and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. >=20 > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > very specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer an= d the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from > one access technology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. >=20 > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that wil= l > guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common > components for management and security, as well as shared application > profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the device= s, > and propose technologies to secure the operations and manage the devices > and their gateways. >=20 > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- >=20 > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area technologies , and , and will collaborate > with that set of stakeholders to ensure that real demands are being serve= d > and the proposed solutions are applicable. >=20 > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies fo= r > IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in > LPWA networks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards > work to optimize IPv6 operations to the device. >=20 > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >=20 > Work Items: > ----------- >=20 > The group will: >=20 > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPW= A > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but > will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >=20 > 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, > highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; th= ese > documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >=20 > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 > over LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YAN= G > data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the relate= d > state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the > selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how > the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any= . >=20 > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard Track document if that is deemed necessary. > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Sun Apr 24 08:28:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BED812D1D5 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rnKqtMyaDPj0 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (relay4-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A613F12D0F2 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter38-d.gandi.net (mfilter38-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.169]) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC48172097; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:28:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter38-d.gandi.net Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.196]) by mfilter38-d.gandi.net (mfilter38-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PJxPt6IkKFgs; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:28:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 634FD1720A5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:28:18 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:28:28 -0000 As I said, I don't like a complicated, unpronouncable name. Doing an LPWA survey might be useful, but sounds like one of these efforts where it is always hard to summon enough energy to complete them. What's the point? A "requirements" document is a non-starter. Are we talking about an architecture here? That might indeed come with objectives, but we don't want the "requirements engineering" game. I'm not sure I understand the compression deliverables: You want a YANG model for installing compression state, and then technology-specific compression formats? Segmentation ("fragmentation") might indeed be technology-specific. Grüße, Carsten Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Dear all > > Please note that by berlin, techX X in 1..3 will be identified, so a placeholder is fine for now. > > Cheers, > > Pascal > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert >> (pthubert) >> Sent: dimanche 24 avril 2016 16:50 >> To: Juan Carlos Zuniga ; Alexander Pelov ; >> Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; Mischa Dohler >> >> Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org >> Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >> >> Background/Introduction: >> ------------------------ >> >> A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged >> under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety >> of LPWA technologies that is already proposed in this market, a number of >> common characteristics can be gathered which make these technologies >> unique and disruptive for wireless Internet of Things (IOT) applications. >> >> Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes, >> rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This >> provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies >> and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. >> >> Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and >> very specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the >> application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed >> deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from >> one access technology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. >> >> To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new >> ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will >> guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common >> components for management and security, as well as shared application >> profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, >> and propose technologies to secure the operations and manage the devices >> and their gateways. >> >> Description of Working Group: >> ----------------------------- >> >> The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power >> Wide-Area technologies , and , and will collaborate >> with that set of stakeholders to ensure that real demands are being served >> and the proposed solutions are applicable. >> >> The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for >> IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in >> LPWA networks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards >> work to optimize IPv6 operations to the device. >> >> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, >> Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >> >> Work Items: >> ----------- >> >> The group will: >> >> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA >> technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but >> will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> >> 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, >> highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these >> documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >> >> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 >> over LPWA. >> Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG >> data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related >> state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the >> selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how >> the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. >> >> 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over >> LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new >> Standard Track document if that is deemed necessary. >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Sun Apr 24 08:56:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8489812B028 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, 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cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:56:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (173.36.7.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:55:53 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:55:53 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Carsten Bormann Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4A== Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:55:31 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:54:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 15:56:08 -0000 SGVsbG8gQ2Fyc3RlbjoNCg0KTGV0J3MgYWdyZWUgb24gd2hhdCB3ZSB3YW50IGRvbmUsIGFuZCB0 aGVuIHdlJ2xsIGxvb2sgYXQgdGhlIGV4YWN0IHdvcmRpbmcgLSB3aGljaCBpcyBzdGlsbCBib3Vu ZCB0byBjaGFuZ2UgYmV0d2VlbiBub3cgYW5kIEJlcmxpbi4NCg0KPiANCj4gQXMgSSBzYWlkLCBJ IGRvbid0IGxpa2UgYSBjb21wbGljYXRlZCwgdW5wcm9ub3VuY2FibGUgbmFtZS4NCj4gDQpZZXMs IHdlIG5lZWQgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyB0aHJlYWQgb24gdGhlIG5hbWUuIFRoZXJlIHdlcmUgYSBudW1i ZXIgb2YgcHJvcG9zYWxzIHdpdGggcHJvcyBhbmQgY29ucy4NCg0KKiBMUFdBTjogZ3JlYXQgZm9y 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v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACVvWAA== Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:02:41 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:02:36 +0000 Message-ID: <44ab724a95204b0995e7c2327f3324f5@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:02:57 -0000 QWxsOg0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggQ2Fyc3RlbiB0aGF0IHRoZSB0ZXJtIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50IGlu IGl0ZW0gMiBpcyBpbmFkZXF1YXRlLiANCkknbGwgcmVwbGFjZSBpdCB3aXRoIGJlc3QgcHJhY3Rp Y2UgYW5kIHJlcG9zdC4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KDQpQYXNjYWwNCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwg TWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiBbbWFpbHRvOmNhYm9AdHppLm9y Z10NCj4gU2VudDogZGltYW5jaGUgMjQgYXZyaWwgMjAxNiAxNzoyOA0KPiBUbzogUGFzY2FsIFRo dWJlcnQgKHB0aHViZXJ0KSA8cHRodWJlcnRAY2lzY28uY29tPg0KPiBDYzogSnVhbiBDYXJsb3Mg WnVuaWdhIDxqLmMuenVuaWdhQGllZWUub3JnPjsgQWxleGFuZGVyIFBlbG92IDxhQGFja2wuaW8+ Ow0KPiBQYXVsIER1ZmZ5IChwYWR1ZmZ5KSA8cGFkdWZmeUBjaXNjby5jb20+OyBNaXNjaGEgRG9o bGVyDQo+IDxtaXNjaGEuZG9obGVyQGtjbC5hYy51az47IGxwLXdhbkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJq ZWN0OiBSZTogW2xwLXdhbl0gUHJvcG9zZWQgY2hhcnRlciB2Mg0KPiANCj4gQXMgSSBzYWlkLCBJ IGRvbid0IGxpa2UgYSBjb21wbGljYXRlZCwgdW5wcm9ub3VuY2FibGUgbmFtZS4NCj4gDQo+IERv aW5nIGFuIExQV0Egc3VydmV5IG1pZ2h0IGJlIHVzZWZ1bCwgYnV0IHNvdW5kcyBsaWtlIG9uZSBv 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"lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGeQmDwQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjg== Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:03:40 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:02:58 +0000 Message-ID: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:03:57 -0000 --_000_9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under t= he generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA techno= logies that is already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics= can be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireles= s Internet of Things (IOT) applications. Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and ver= y specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deploym= ents, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access techn= ology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystem= s, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee th= e interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manageme= nt and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribu= te by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secur= e the operations and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-= Area technologies , and , and will leverage cross-particip= ation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking plac= e corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA netwo= rks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize= IPv6 operations to the device. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over = LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. --_000_9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks&= quot;.

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LL= Ns) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the= variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market, a number of= common characteristics can

be gathered which make these technologies unique and= disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.

 

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rat= e and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and = basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and batt= ery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.<= /o:p>

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology. There is no = network layer and the

application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading = to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individually. Migratin= g from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.<= /o:p>

 

To unleash the full power of these new technologies = and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems= that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management

and security, as well as shared application profiles= . The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propos= e technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and their gateways= .

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over s= elected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Te= ch3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure th= at the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutio= ns are applicable.

 

The group will produce informational work describing= LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF t= echnology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new sta= ndards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

 

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and Security Areas.<= /o:p>

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the commo= n characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.<= /o:p>

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will f= ocus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to in= stall the related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also in= clude, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to d= escribe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the a= ir, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.

--_000_9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Sun Apr 24 09:09:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8B912D1E9 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rho-0zHMIyJc for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3D6B12D1A0 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter16-d.gandi.net (mfilter16-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.144]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C77A80C7; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:09:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter16-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter16-d.gandi.net (mfilter16-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ooR5GucWqEgU; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:09:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AED28A80C6; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:09:31 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:09:39 -0000 >> As I said, I don't like a complicated, unpronouncable name. >> > Yes, we need a specific thread on the name. There were a number of proposals with pros and cons. > > * LPWAN: great for IETF consumption but wrong from the outside, seems like IETF claims it owns the technology > * 6LPWAN: too close to 6LoWPAN. > * 6WIDE: not specific enough to LPWA > > ... > > > At 6TiSCH, we ended up with a poll. 6Tisch is pronouncable. sixloppwa isn't. >> Doing an LPWA survey might be useful, but sounds like one of these efforts >> where it is always hard to summon enough energy to complete them. >> What's the point? > > An image of what is desired there is what RFC7554 is for 6TiSCH. > A place for the IETF community to find what LPWA is about in our terms. I don't object to this, I just have a grim prognosis on its success. >> A "requirements" document is a non-starter. Are we talking about an >> architecture here? That might indeed come with objectives, but we don't >> want the "requirements engineering" game. > > Yes, at 6TiSCH the architecture plays that role. But we are not building a full architecture here are we? I'm not sure I know what a "full architecture" is. We are talking about an architecture that combines a hard-state state management protocol with a compression scheme based on that state management. Enough of an architecture if you ask me. > As opposed to the previous document, this (or these) one is for people participating to the external communities to educate the IETF on their needs. > The idea would be to aggregate and organize the needs at this WG, and then use the documents to interface with other IETF WGs and ask for work there. That all sounds good. What we need to avoid is that proponents of a specific solution start to fight about the "requirements" in order to have their solution look better. (I see that you are getting rid of the word "requirement".) >> I'm not sure I understand the compression deliverables: You want a YANG >> model for installing compression state, and then technology-specific >> compression formats? > > Yes. Some technologies may want a plain encapsulation, put all the data inside a constant CoAP wrapper. > Some others may have existing fields that the compression may leverage in some fashion, like a port number maps in a URI. > This is certainly technology dependent and within one technology, there might be several things doable at the expense of different costs. Good, just wanted to make sure I read this right. >> Segmentation ("fragmentation") might indeed be technology-specific. >> > If it is fully technology-specific, then nothing for us to do. But the 6LoWPAN work indicates that there's a possibility, to be evaluated. Even if it is technology-specific, it still needs to be standardized. Grüße, Carsten From nobody Sun Apr 24 09:21:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C9B12B068 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:21:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2kI_JtRwssi1 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E024A12B02B for ; 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24 Apr 2016 16:21:24 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (xch-rcd-009.cisco.com [173.37.102.19]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3OGLOqC017308 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:21:24 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 11:21:23 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 11:21:24 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Carsten Bormann Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8A= Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:21:02 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:20:59 +0000 Message-ID: <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:21:26 -0000 PiA+IEF0IDZUaVNDSCwgd2UgZW5kZWQgdXAgd2l0aCBhIHBvbGwuDQo+IA0KPiA2VGlzY2ggaXMg cHJvbm91bmNhYmxlLiAgc2l4bG9wcHdhIGlzbid0Lg0KDQo6ICkNCiANCg0KDQo+ID4gQXMgb3Bw b3NlZCB0byB0aGUgcHJldmlvdXMgZG9jdW1lbnQsIHRoaXMgKG9yIHRoZXNlKSBvbmUgaXMgZm9y IHBlb3BsZQ0KPiBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIHRvIHRoZSBleHRlcm5hbCBjb21tdW5pdGllcyB0byBl ZHVjYXRlIHRoZSBJRVRGIG9uIHRoZWlyDQo+IG5lZWRzLg0KPiA+IFRoZSBpZGVhIHdvdWxkIGJl IHRvIGFnZ3JlZ2F0ZSBhbmQgb3JnYW5pemUgdGhlIG5lZWRzIGF0IHRoaXMgV0csIGFuZA0KPiB0 aGVuIHVzZSB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnRzIHRvIGludGVyZmFjZSB3aXRoIG90aGVyIElFVEYgV0dzIGFu ZCBhc2sgZm9yIHdvcmsNCj4gdGhlcmUuDQo+IA0KPiBUaGF0IGFsbCBzb3VuZHMgZ29vZC4gV2hh dCB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGF2b2lkIGlzIHRoYXQgcHJvcG9uZW50cyBvZiBhIHNwZWNpZmljDQo+IHNv bHV0aW9uIHN0YXJ0IHRvIGZpZ2h0IGFib3V0IHRoZSAicmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIiBpbiBvcmRlciB0 byBoYXZlIHRoZWlyDQo+IHNvbHV0aW9uIGxvb2sgYmV0dGVyLiAgKEkgc2VlIHRoYXQgeW91IGFy ZSBnZXR0aW5nIHJpZCBvZiB0aGUgd29yZA0KPiAicmVxdWlyZW1lbnQiLikNCj4gDQoNCldlbGwg aXRlbSAyIG5vdyBjb3ZlcnMgIiBiZXN0IHByYWN0aWNlIGRvY3VtZW50cyBvbiB1c2luZyBJRVRG IHRlY2hub2xvZ3kgaW4NCkxQV0EgbmV0d29ya3MgZGlyZWN0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIHNlbGVjdGVkIHBh cnRuZXIgYm9kaWVzICIgd2hpY2ggaXMgaW5kaWNhdGVkIGluDQp0aGUgcHJldmlvdXMgc2VjdGlv biBvZiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlci4gQnV0IEknbSBzdGlsbCBhZnRlciBhIHZlY3RvciB0byBmdW5uZWwg bmVlZHMNCmZyb20gZXh0ZXJuYWwgYm9kaWVzIHRvIG90aGVyIFdHIHZpYSB0aGlzIFdHLiBNYXli ZSBpdCdzIGl0ZW0gMT8NCg0KVGFrZSBjYXJlLCANCg0KUGFzY2FsDQo= From nobody Sun Apr 24 09:27:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B6E12B068 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:27:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id huCeOsp6Z7Ux for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C882A12B02B for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter21-d.gandi.net (mfilter21-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.149]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86C5A80D0; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:27:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter21-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter21-d.gandi.net (mfilter21-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vx_gc6JzfOPu; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:27:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 10.58.1.145 Received: from webmail.gandi.net (webmail5-d.mgt.gandi.net [10.58.1.145]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9E196A80D5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:27:44 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:27:44 +0200 From: Alexander Pelov To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" In-Reply-To: <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Message-ID: <1dbf1cc99c6439d99e256e8f5ec59474@ackl.io> X-Sender: a@ackl.io User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , lp-wan@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:27:50 -0000 I'd pronounce it "six El-P way" Best, Alexander Le 2016-04-24 18:21, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) a écrit : >> > At 6TiSCH, we ended up with a poll. >> >> 6Tisch is pronouncable. sixloppwa isn't. > > : ) > > > >> > As opposed to the previous document, this (or these) one is for people >> participating to the external communities to educate the IETF on their >> needs. >> > The idea would be to aggregate and organize the needs at this WG, and >> then use the documents to interface with other IETF WGs and ask for >> work >> there. >> >> That all sounds good. What we need to avoid is that proponents of a >> specific >> solution start to fight about the "requirements" in order to have >> their >> solution look better. (I see that you are getting rid of the word >> "requirement".) >> > > Well item 2 now covers " best practice documents on using IETF > technology in > LPWA networks directed to the selected partner bodies " which is > indicated in > the previous section of the charter. But I'm still after a vector to > funnel needs > from external bodies to other WG via this WG. Maybe it's item 1? > > Take care, > > Pascal > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Sun Apr 24 10:04:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF0312B035 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4olXsBrvTODA for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BC1D12B02B for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter30-d.gandi.net (mfilter30-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.161]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09CFA80D8; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:04:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter30-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter30-d.gandi.net (mfilter30-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id po16j9ICTI0V; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:04:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D5731A80C7; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:04:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 19:04:11 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:04:19 -0000 >> sixloppwa Let me update that to "sloppwa". Pronouncable, but maybe not the right connotation :-) Grüße, Carsten From nobody Sun Apr 24 14:18:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F354412D112 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:18:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u4voYb5V_vPg for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ED4712D0FD for ; 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Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yAVZD079F35J for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (relay2-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E9E912B04A for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 14:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter25-d.gandi.net (mfilter25-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.153]) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C24C5A3C; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:53:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter25-d.gandi.net Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.194]) by mfilter25-d.gandi.net (mfilter25-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTIL3rF_tKwQ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:53:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B83FCC5A53; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:53:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:53:34 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juan Carlos Zuniga References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Alexander Pelov , Mischa Dohler Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 21:53:44 -0000 LP-WAN is a fine term for the overall field of technology. It is not a good IETF WG name for two reasons: 1) 6LPWAN looks to much like 6LWPAN. Don't do that. 2) LP-WAN indeed is a fine generic term. But we need a *new* name, googleable, distinct, with some recognition that this is a *new*, *specific* initiative. Enough on this subject; to some extent this really is a matter of taste, but also a matter of different objectives in naming this activity. Grüße, Carsten PS.: While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are actually trying to do. Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > I personally never heard of any issues with LP-WAN (or 6LPWAN for that matter). > I found it fairly descriptive and pronounceable. > Yes, WAN is close to PAN and LAN, but I assume those interested can tell the difference ;) > > Juan Carlos > > On Apr 24, 2016, at 13:04, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >>>> sixloppwa >> Let me update that to "sloppwa". >> >> Pronouncable, but maybe not the right connotation :-) >> >> Grüße, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > From nobody Sun Apr 24 18:38:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6DA12D1D0 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:38:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yth9c89s0i6t for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob10.myregisteredsite.com (atl4mhob10.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D82C12B053 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.210]) by atl4mhob10.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u3P1cIt4019959 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 21:38:18 -0400 Received: (qmail 32554 invoked by uid 0); 25 Apr 2016 01:38:18 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 73.207.234.73 X-Authenticated-UID: rturner@amalfisystems.com Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.25?) (rturner@amalfisystems.com@73.207.234.73) by 0 with ESMTPA; 25 Apr 2016 01:38:18 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B8BAD772-48AD-474B-8826-A86ADCCCFEE6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Randy Turner In-Reply-To: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 21:38:18 -0400 Message-Id: References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:38:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B8BAD772-48AD-474B-8826-A86ADCCCFEE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Pascal, Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed charter > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame = sizes, > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. = This > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, = simplifies and > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. It seems like it would be of some value to future participants in this = work if this particular paragraph provided examples of =E2=80=9Csmall frame sizes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cradio= modulations=E2=80=9D so that some idea of the challenges of the working group could be understood. I say this because this same = paragraph could be used to talk about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (small frame sizes, = specific modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy issues)=20 but that exhibit none of the characteristics that I think LPWANs will be faced with. My $0.02 :) Randy >=20 > =20 > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > =20 > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > =20 > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged = under the > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). =46rom the variety of LPWA = technologies > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common = characteristics can > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for = wireless > Internet of Things (IOT) applications.=20 > =20 > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame = sizes, > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. = This > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, = simplifies and > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > =20 > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized = and very > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and = the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed = deployments, > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access = technology > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > =20 > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new = ecosystems, > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for = management > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can = contribute > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to = secure the > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > =20 > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > =20 > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power = Wide-Area > technologies , and , and will leverage = cross-participation > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking = place > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > =20 > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies = for IETF > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA = networks > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to = optimize IPv6 > operations to the device. > =20 > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF = Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > =20 > Work Items: > ----------- > =20 > The group will: > =20 > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing = LPWA > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics = but will > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > =20 > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, = highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these = documents may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > =20 > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 = over LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic = YANG data > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related = state > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the = selected > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the = fields > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > =20 > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets = over LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new = Standard > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = --Apple-Mail=_B8BAD772-48AD-474B-8826-A86ADCCCFEE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Pascal,

Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed charter

Those = common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame = sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic = topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and = battery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large = scale.

It seems like = it would be of some value to future participants in this work if this = particular paragraph
provided examples of =E2=80=9Csmall frame = sizes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cradio modulations=E2=80=9D so that some idea = of the challenges
of the working group could be understood. =  I say this because this same paragraph could be used to = talk
about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (small = frame sizes, specific modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy = issues) 
but that exhibit none of the characteristics = that I think
LPWANs will be faced with.

My $0.02 :)

Randy



 
6LPWA: = "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".
 
Background/Introduction:
------------------------
 
A new generation of Low-power and Lossy = Networks (LLNs) has emerged under the
generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area = (LPWA). =46rom the variety of LPWA technologies
that is = already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics = can
be = gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for = wireless
Internet of Things (IOT) applications. 
 
Those = common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame = sizes,
rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic = topologies. This
provides a significant improvement in range and battery = lifetime, simplifies and
lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.
 
Those = benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and = very
specific = to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the
application= is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed = deployments,
managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from = one access technology
to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.
 
To = unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new = ecosystems,
there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that = will guarantee the
interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management
and security, as well as shared application profiles. The = IETF can contribute
by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose = technologies to secure the
operations and manage the devices and = their gateways.
 
Description of Working Group:
-----------------------------
 
The = Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power = Wide-Area
technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech3>, = and will leverage cross-participation
with the associated set of stakeholders = to ensure that the work taking place
corresponds to real demands and the = proposed solutions are applicable.
 
The group will produce informational = work describing LPWA technologies for IETF
consumption, best practice documents on = using IETF technology in LPWA networks
directed to the selected partner = bodies, and new standards work to optimize IPv6
operations = to the device.
 
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the = IETF Internet,
Operations and Management, and Security Areas.
 
Work = Items:
-----------
 
The group will:
 
1. Produce an Informational document = describing and relating existing LPWA
technologies. This document will = highlight the common characteristics but will
not aim = at providing a competitive analysis.
 
2. Produce best practice documents for = security and management, highlighting
potential areas where IETF technologies = may be leveraged; these documents may
eventually be published as = Informational RFCs.
 
3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression = of IPv6 over LPWA.
Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a = generic YANG data
model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the = related state
at the compression end-points; the work will also include, = for the selected
technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe = how the fields
relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if = any.
 
4. = Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over = LPWA,
either as = a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard
Track = document if that is deemed necessary.
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing = list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

= --Apple-Mail=_B8BAD772-48AD-474B-8826-A86ADCCCFEE6-- From nobody Sun Apr 24 18:59:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C915812D186 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mail-udp-cl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J1ImRnhkjwr5 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 304EC12D0EB for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id u206so104628759wme.1 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:59:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail-udp-cl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=38eWLFCvL0pphNk/xBv9ii68xGsgbNBfcvZBGKN+jrw=; b=EHexQACZBSANkKHtbG6lWPlJ5rXxLEvsQIQlmfLK/wfpBNVwmUKJiSeqVC7wQcVOGj WvtZdHfsj2KfWZki1mzzj9dNEpQdy2aLt0TwndwwAdn+stHXPiL7o/Qg8/vYMCa1Wp7I JKTD0ZWJSOpmlusLLVccmS/2LGaxrWu5jMrylBB16XeXPy67Sfv5XPS9rbXiyvYZQuyO OsXK1FvPiBUdYf8Rm7PqW6/sspTz+3Ln0Firjzj+ivYntTqAjk23Piv57RN8kyti4nWg 0D9rijTtiOSWSh2iEu0d/P3rXHIwjxILdlIPGW8C1fk4i988jTPGerHcQAyV0wzm7E6k b/Eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=38eWLFCvL0pphNk/xBv9ii68xGsgbNBfcvZBGKN+jrw=; b=P6gu/QYy/9LqI3VGCeVJW4B3fXytBS62nt6IprV31c9m5bw2nzttELc0maQ+RzJZrK utbE4XynEGpLEjSFeC8vub48FgWvHs4s61sBWIckR+b9HoQap7LfyALihNFplbIYwCny 1F2x/jrD2XCMm+SPYYLS89yFXIbdUEan7ZP30spf38lHjhipMF6PJ/IYjTXO4r24b91n HI9fSP+YZxaTjRBD74u/L4l4olQSBlLS67uxhtJYTTB9gv64z4NYYss0ybqc9zZvIxNu IKXo+IrOTrD3Ip/LZOcllfwiLdjv08GcciqwwbqNRHWvXPe7eia5FJEIkHlVTgV7ZLok qqng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWvdbMhRDO9HJz49GB2JVDrg5MHYSYLBju0aSUycWadqSDGr/5kMAfuTww8t0+66xLe919+063eyELqOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.14.6 with SMTP id l6mr25330686wjc.48.1461549588503; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.54.5 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:59:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 22:59:48 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" To: Randy Turner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6040580b77960531458885 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:59:53 -0000 --047d7b6040580b77960531458885 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal, Randy just got to the point I was going to mention: We should clearly define our scope and differentiate from other technologies which are already covered by groups such as 6lo and 6tisch. I think the aim here is not to exclude candidate technologies per se, but to provide better insight on which are the target technologies we are going to work on, at least, on the first version of the charter. Regards, Diego 2016-04-24 22:38 GMT-03:00 Randy Turner : > Hi Pascal, > > Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed charter > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. Thi= s > > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > > It seems like it would be of some value to future participants in this > work if this particular paragraph > provided examples of =E2=80=9Csmall frame sizes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cradi= o modulations=E2=80=9D so that > some idea of the challenges > of the working group could be understood. I say this because this same > paragraph could be used to talk > about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (small frame sizes, > specific modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy issues) > but that exhibit none of the characteristics that I think > LPWANs will be faced with. > > My $0.02 :) > > Randy > > > > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under > the > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA > technologies > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common > characteristics can > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for > wireless > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. Thi= s > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > very > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access > technology > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee > the > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for > management > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can > contribute > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to > secure the > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area > technologies , and , and will leverage > cross-participation > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking > place > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies fo= r > IETF > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA > networks > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to > optimize IPv6 > operations to the device. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > Work Items: > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPW= A > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but > will > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 ove= r > LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YAN= G > data > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related sta= te > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the select= ed > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the field= s > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunic= aciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --047d7b6040580b77960531458885 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Randy just got to the point I= was going to mention:
We should clearly define our scope and diff= erentiate from
other technologies which are already covered by gro= ups
such as 6lo and 6tisch.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think the aim here is not t= o exclude candidate technologies
per se, but to provide bette= r insight on which are the target
technologies we are going t= o work on, at least, on the first
version of the charter.
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Regards,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Diego

2016-04-24 22:3= 8 GMT-03:00 Randy Turner <rturner@amalfisystems.com>= :
Hi = Pascal,

Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed char= ter

Those common family traits include ultra low = bit-rate and small frame sizes,

provides a significant impro= vement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and

= lowers the co= st of deployments at large scale.

<= /span>It seems like it would be of some value to future participants in thi= s work if this particular paragraph
provided examples of =E2=80= =9Csmall frame sizes=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cradio modulations=E2=80=9D so tha= t some idea of the challenges
of the working group could be under= stood.=C2=A0 I say this because this same paragraph could be used to talk
about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (small frame size= s, specific modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy issues)=C2=A0
but that exhibit none of the characteristics that I think
LPWAN= s will be faced with.

My $0.02 :)

Randy



=C2=A0
6LPWA: "IPv= 6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".
= =C2=A0
Background/Introduction:
------------------------
= =C2=A0
A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networ= ks (LLNs) has emerged under the
generic name o= f Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA technologies<= u>
that is already proposed in this market, a number of = common characteristics can
be gathered which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for wireless
Internet of Things (IOT) applications.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Those common fa= mily traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes,=
rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic t= opologies. This
provides a significant improve= ment in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and
lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.
=C2=A0
Those benefits come at a price: t= he MAC-layer formats are optimized and very
= specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the
application is often hard wired to the MAC, lea= ding to very silo'ed deployments,
managed,= secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access technology=
to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.
=C2=A0
To unleash = the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystems,
there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems t= hat will guarantee the
interworking at the net= work layer and enable common components for management
<= div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san= s-serif">and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can= contribute
by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the d= evices, and propose technologies to secure the
operations and manage the devices and their gateways.
<= div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san= s-serif">=C2=A0
Description of Working Group:<= u>
-----------------------------
=C2=A0
The Working Group will foc= us on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-Area
technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech3>, and wi= ll leverage cross-participation
with the assoc= iated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place
corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are= applicable.
=C2=A0
The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies f= or IETF
consumption, best practice documents o= n using IETF technology in LPWA networks
direc= ted to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize IPv6=
operations to the device.
=
=C2=A0
The WG will interface with ot= her appropriate groups in the IETF Internet,
= Operations and Management, and Security Areas.
=C2=A0
Work Items:
-----------
=C2=A0
The group will:
=C2=A0
1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating exi= sting LPWA
technologies. This document will hi= ghlight the common characteristics but will
= not aim at providing a competitive analysis.
= =C2=A0
2. Produce best practice documents for = security and management, highlighting
potentia= l areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents may
eventually be published as Informational RFCs.
=C2=A0
3. Produce Sta= ndard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA.
Considering the extreme constraints, the work will foc= us on a generic YANG data
model to enable the = compression, and protocols to install the related state
=
at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for th= e selected
technologies, specific Standard Tra= ck documents to describe how the fields
releva= nt to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any.
=C2=A0
4. Produce a document to en= able the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA,
either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new S= tandard
Track document if that is deemed neces= sary.
____________________= ___________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan=


______________________________= _________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en I= nform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP
= www.ingenieria.u= dp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125
--047d7b6040580b77960531458885-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 00:05:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7371D12D0D9 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VOCtTGFQ1qSc for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:05:07 -0700 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=?us-ascii?q?QSGIYNJgQKECRopIAmCSoJWBYd0hV+FS4RxAY4NjxePLgEeAQFCggIegUtsh2d?= =?us-ascii?q?/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,531,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="100185842" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Apr 2016 07:05:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3P756JB019110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:05:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:05:05 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:05:05 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Randy Turner Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGeQmDwQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjgAeqxgAAAAz+BA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:04:38 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:41:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c21347c8d30342fba7ff384db40a7bd1XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:05:10 -0000 --_000_c21347c8d30342fba7ff384db40a7bd1XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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AOPr4FVU6n+Yqf2cV++AwUR5uhfmg/Nw7U99oevw1vbZGE5NwzrAq3KzN5vownjUhspbGnkd3Stktt7ahc8lTSUU MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.176.0.239 with SMTP id 102mr19233925uaj.33.1461568140292; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.40.6 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:09:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:09:00 +0300 Message-ID: From: Alper Yegin To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113cceecd14b58053149d91b Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:09:03 -0000 --001a113cceecd14b58053149d91b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello Dear Pascal, Thank you for doing this, and please see below for my first round of comments/recommendations. > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under > the > > Not sure if we really want to frame these technologies as "lossy", as some of them do have reliability features. generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA > technologies > > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common > characteristics can > > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for > wireless > > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > > > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This > > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > very > > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, > > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access > technology > > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of the stack may not be using IP. If we were to get into the pros and cons of doing that in the charter, the discussion may expand unnecessarily. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, > > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee > the > > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for > management > > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can > contribute > > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to > secure the > > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area > > technologies , and , and will leverage > cross-participation > > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking > place > > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for > IETF > > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA > networks > > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to > optimize IPv6 > > operations to the device. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA > > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but > will > > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > > It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, before discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by the problem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product is used. > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over > LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG > data > > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state > > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the > selected > > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields > > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > We'd need to nail down which technologies need that. Alper > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --001a113cceecd14b58053149d91b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Dear Pascal,

Thank you for doing = this, and please see below for my first round of comments/recommendations.<= br>

=C2=A0

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks&= quot;.

=C2=A0

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

=C2=A0

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LL= Ns) has emerged under the


Not= sure if we really want to frame these technologies as "lossy", a= s some of them do have reliability features.

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). Fr= om the variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market, a number of= common characteristics can

be gathered which make these technologies unique and= disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rat= e and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and = basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and batt= ery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.

=C2=A0

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology. There is no = network layer and the

application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading = to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individually. Migratin= g from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.


<= div>It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of the stack = may not be using IP.
If we were to get into the pros and cons of = doing that in the charter, the discussion may expand unnecessarily.

=C2=A0

To unleash the full power of these new technologies = and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems= that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management

and security, as well as shared application profiles= . The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propos= e technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and their gateways= .=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

=C2=A0

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over s= elected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Te= ch3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure th= at the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutio= ns are applicable.

=C2=A0

The group will produce informational work describing= LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF t= echnology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new sta= ndards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

=C2=A0

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and Security Areas.

=C2=A0

Work Items:

-----------

=C2=A0

The group will:

=C2=A0

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the commo= n characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.<= u>

=C2=A0

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.

=C2=A0


<= /div>
It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, be= fore discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by the pr= oblem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product is used.

=C2=A0

=

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will f= ocus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to in= stall the related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also in= clude, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to d= escribe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the a= ir, if any.

=C2=A0

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.



We'd need to nail down which techn= ologies need that.

Alper

=


=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan






=
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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Apr 2016 07:14:32.4936 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR08MB1092 X-MC-Unique: k_po_bJpTQaxbLNNhJp2Cw-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR08MB1090AE3BFA02ADBE5D49C771FA620AM4PR08MB1090eurp_" Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:14:41 -0000 --_000_AM4PR08MB1090AE3BFA02ADBE5D49C771FA620AM4PR08MB1090eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id ZGMLjR-VshzY for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:36:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35346232056 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:36:56 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr 35346232056 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telecom-bretagne.eu; s=CFDC2CFA-4654-11E5-AACD-7BCC68B6580D; t=1461569816; bh=4SAbyvG9d0QDa/nudDy2utzDp7yK3IvMUEZD3AQBXDE=; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To:Content-Type; b=ppXCkHy1LIc6NXlDIQP2/BdoZWm3vM3d0s+qZRwviQYzDhKVbicXVb4PD19HNxTTI WUiiWUHxp0xPrvd0BleAhjl0kb3kEu9syp8kIOCpCqEugs/jQzLHbznK0qye3whRD+ GjK5wK1PJCuekJZCzHP6obBby4rZ0jYezJGfG+50= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr Received: from zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ocYeXT64LNVt for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:36:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-yw0-f181.google.com (mail-yw0-f181.google.com [209.85.161.181]) by zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A9FF123201F for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:36:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-yw0-f181.google.com with SMTP id o66so193398377ywc.3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:36:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUE3agOCywfx8sTb1d8JV7yKjR9QOBoDvjX6YN5uQnzKBo3PF4KAjUgj358sA5kwMocrg7724RSP7g/lg== X-Received: by 10.129.98.134 with SMTP id w128mr22072523ywb.198.1461569814431; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:36:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.32.136 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:36:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: Laurent Toutain Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:36:15 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1146eeca9a95b405314a3dc5 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:37:01 -0000 --001a1146eeca9a95b405314a3dc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pascal, Thank you for this charter. I've two remarks: 1) rare transmissions =3D> rare and sometime limited transmissions. Duty cycle may interfere with some protocols 2) In the introduction the scope is more specifically made on IPv6/UDP/CoAP and in work item 3: only IPv6 compression is discussed. We must also limit the solution scope otherwise it will be difficult to find optimal solutions. For instance, in a first approach the group may focus on star topologies and, in the future work, on star topologies. Laurent On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under > the > > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA > technologies > > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common > characteristics can > > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for > wireless > > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > > > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. Thi= s > > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > very > > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, > > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access > technology > > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, > > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee > the > > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for > management > > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can > contribute > > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to > secure the > > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area > > technologies , and , and will leverage > cross-participation > > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking > place > > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies fo= r > IETF > > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA > networks > > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to > optimize IPv6 > > operations to the device. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPW= A > > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but > will > > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 ove= r > LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YAN= G > data > > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related sta= te > > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the > selected > > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the field= s > > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Laurent Toutain +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne --------= ---+ | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 | Visit : | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 | http://class.touta.in | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ --001a1146eeca9a95b405314a3dc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pascal,

Thank you for this charter. = I've two remarks:

1) rare transmissions =3D>= ; rare and sometime limited transmissions.=C2=A0

D= uty cycle may interfere with some protocols

2) In = the introduction the scope is more specifically made on IPv6/UDP/CoAP =C2= =A0and in work item 3: only IPv6 compression is discussed.=C2=A0
=
We must also limit the solution scope otherwise it will be d= ifficult to find optimal solutions. For instance, in a first approach the g= roup may focus on star topologies and, in the future work, on star topologi= es.

Laurent
=
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Pascal Thub= ert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks&= quot;.

=C2=A0

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

=C2=A0

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LL= Ns) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the= variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market, a number of= common characteristics can

be gathered which make these technologies unique and= disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rat= e and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and = basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and batt= ery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.

=C2=A0

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology. There is no = network layer and the

application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading = to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individually. Migratin= g from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.

=C2=A0

To unleash the full power of these new technologies = and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems= that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management

and security, as well as shared application profiles= . The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propos= e technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and their gateways= .

=C2=A0

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

=C2=A0

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over s= elected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Te= ch3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure th= at the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutio= ns are applicable.

=C2=A0

The group will produce informational work describing= LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF t= echnology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new sta= ndards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

=C2=A0

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and Security Areas.

=C2=A0

Work Items:

-----------

=C2=A0

The group will:

=C2=A0

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the commo= n characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.<= u>

=C2=A0

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.

=C2=A0

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will f= ocus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to in= stall the related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also in= clude, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to d= escribe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the a= ir, if any.

=C2=A0

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Laurent Toutain=C2=A0
+--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com= Bretagne -----------+
| Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Tel: + 33 = 2 99 12 7026 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Visi= t :
| Mob: +33 6= 800 75 900 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
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|= Laurent@Touta.in =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bre= tagne.eu =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
+--------------------------+--------------------= --------------------+
--001a1146eeca9a95b405314a3dc5-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 00:39:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E2C12B054 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiYsxrmqZRpc for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24D20126D74 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:660:7301:3728:c893:952a:d41b:e1c7] (unknown [IPv6:2001:660:7301:3728:c893:952a:d41b:e1c7]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95927A810E; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:39:02 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EB87F699-E972-45FB-BF01-8FF231353FF3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:39:15 +0200 Message-Id: <35566B79-B367-4ACD-B213-279D7676A7AD@ackl.io> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> To: Alper Yegin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:39:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EB87F699-E972-45FB-BF01-8FF231353FF3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Alper, Thanks a lot for your comments! Please, see in-line. > Le 25 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 09:09, Alper Yegin a = =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Hello Dear Pascal, >=20 > Thank you for doing this, and please see below for my first round of = comments/recommendations. >=20 > =20 >=20 > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >=20 > =20 >=20 > Background/Introduction: >=20 > ------------------------ >=20 > =20 >=20 > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged = under the >=20 >=20 >=20 > Not sure if we really want to frame these technologies as "lossy", as = some of them do have reliability features. It is indeed an open question if we should keep the LLN designation to = LPWAs. For me they are LLNs, in the same sense IEEE 802.15.4 is - frames = are (could) be acknowledged, but this doesn=E2=80=99t make it a 99,9999% = reliable L2 link. >=20 > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). =46rom the variety of LPWA = technologies >=20 > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common = characteristics can >=20 > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for = wireless >=20 > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame = sizes, >=20 > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. = This >=20 > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, = simplifies and >=20 > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized = and very >=20 > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and = the >=20 > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed = deployments, >=20 > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access = technology >=20 > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. >=20 >=20 >=20 > It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of the stack = may not be using IP. > If we were to get into the pros and cons of doing that in the charter, = the discussion may expand unnecessarily. This is still in the technology overview part, e.g. the state of the = art. Currently, most of the LPWA technologies are not using natively the = IP stack (over-the-air or not), so I think the current text is accurate = and necessary. >=20 > =20 >=20 > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new = ecosystems, >=20 > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the >=20 > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for = management >=20 > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can = contribute >=20 > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to = secure the >=20 > operations and manage the devices and their gateways.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Description of Working Group: >=20 > ----------------------------- >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power = Wide-Area >=20 > technologies , and , and will leverage = cross-participation >=20 > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking = place >=20 > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies = for IETF >=20 > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA = networks >=20 > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to = optimize IPv6 >=20 > operations to the device. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF = Internet, >=20 > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Work Items: >=20 > ----------- >=20 > =20 >=20 > The group will: >=20 > =20 >=20 > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing = LPWA >=20 > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics = but will >=20 > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >=20 > =20 >=20 > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, = highlighting >=20 > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these = documents may >=20 > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, before = discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by the = problem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product is = used. I completely agree with you here! Did you look at = draft-minaburo-lp-wan-gap-analysis-01 and = draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00? I=E2=80=99d be happy to hear your = input on the subject. >=20 > =20 >=20 > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 = over LPWA. >=20 > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic = YANG data >=20 > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related = state >=20 > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the = selected >=20 > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the = fields >=20 > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. >=20 > =20 >=20 > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets = over LPWA, >=20 > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new = Standard >=20 > Track document if that is deemed necessary. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We'd need to nail down which technologies need that. Yes, indeed! This is one of the goals of selecting the 3 leading = technologies to be considered. For me, there are two major technologies = that do not currently support L2 fragmentation, one of which will surely = introduce it soon (LoRaWAN), while the other most probably would rely on = our work here (SIGFOX).=20 We already have a starting document = (draft-gomez-lpwan-fragmentation-header-01), so should one of the three = identified base LPWA technologies need fragmentation, we could do = specific work quite rapidly. Best, Alexander >=20 > Alper >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --Apple-Mail=_EB87F699-E972-45FB-BF01-8FF231353FF3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear Alper,

Thanks a lot for your comments! Please, see = in-line.


Le = 25 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 09:09, Alper Yegin <alper.yegin@actility.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Hello Dear Pascal,

Thank you for doing this, and please see below for my first = round of comments/recommendations.

 

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new = generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under = the



Not sure if we really = want to frame these technologies as "lossy", as some of them do have = reliability = features.

It is indeed an open question if we should keep = the LLN designation to LPWAs. For me they are LLNs, in the same sense = IEEE 802.15.4 is - frames are (could) be acknowledged, but this = doesn=E2=80=99t make it a 99,9999% reliable L2 link.


generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). =46rom = the variety of LPWA technologies

that is = already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics = can

be = gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for = wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.

 

Those = common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes,

rare = transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This

provides a = significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers = the cost of deployments at large scale.

 

Those benefits come at a = price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and very

specific to each individual = technology. There is no network layer and the

application= is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, = secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access = technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.


It may be better to simply say that the = over-the-air part of the stack may not be using IP.
If we were to get into the pros and cons of doing that in the = charter, the discussion may expand = unnecessarily.

This is still in the technology overview part, = e.g. the state of the art. Currently, most of the LPWA technologies are = not using natively the IP stack (over-the-air or not), so I think the = current text is accurate and necessary.


 

To = unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new = ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems = that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management

and security, as well as shared application = profiles. The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to = the devices, and propose technologies to secure the

operations and manage the = devices and their = gateways. 

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The = Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power = Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and = <Tech3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of = stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place

corresponds to real demands = and the proposed solutions are applicable.

 

The = group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF = technology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new = standards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

 

The WG will interface with = other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and = Security Areas.

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational = document describing and relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document = will highlight the common characteristics but will

not aim at providing a = competitive analysis.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be = leveraged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.

 


It'd be good to start from identifying = the problems first, before discussing the solutions here. Solution work = should be gated by the problem statement, if we really want to make sure = the IETF product is = used.

I completely agree with you here! Did you look = at draft-minaburo-lp-wan-gap-analysis-01 = and draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00? I=E2=80=99d be happy to = hear your input on the subject.


 

3. Produce Standard Track = documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme = constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG data

model to = enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state

at the = compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to = describe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the = air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of = larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing = technology, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.



We'd need to nail down which technologies need = that.

Yes, indeed! This is one of the goals of selecting = the 3 leading technologies to be considered. For me, there are two major = technologies that do not currently support L2 fragmentation, one of = which will surely introduce it soon (LoRaWAN), while the other most = probably would rely on our work here (SIGFOX). 

We already have a starting document = (draft-gomez-lpwan-fragmentation-header-01), so should one of the three = identified base LPWA technologies need fragmentation, we could do = specific work quite rapidly.

Best,
Alexander



Alper




 
_______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
=





_______________________________________________
lp-wan = mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

= --Apple-Mail=_EB87F699-E972-45FB-BF01-8FF231353FF3-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 00:48:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EBDA12D18E for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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Thubert (pthubert)" To: Alper Yegin Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGeQmDwQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjgAqN8gAAAp0REA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:47:38 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:46:41 +0000 Message-ID: <9ce01a3a666c413893ce9c42ee9644da@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9ce01a3a666c413893ce9c42ee9644daXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:48:09 -0000 --_000_9ce01a3a666c413893ce9c42ee9644daXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gQWxwZXI6DQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHlvdXIgcG9pbnRzLCBidXQgZG8g bm90IGhhdmUgYW4gZWFzeSBhbnN3ZXIuIExldCB1cyBnbyB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBpbnRlbnQgYW5k IHRoZW4gd2XigJlsbCBzZWUgaG93IHdlIGNhbiBhZGFwdCB0aGUgdGV4dC4NCg0KDQoNCsOYICBO b3Qgc3VyZSBpZiB3ZSByZWFsbHkgd2FudCB0byBmcmFtZSB0aGVzZSB0ZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgYXMg Imxvc3N5IiwgYXMgc29tZSBvZiB0aGVtIGRvIGhhdmUgcmVsaWFiaWxpdHkgZmVhdHVyZXMuDQoN Ck5vdCBkaXNwdXRpbmcgdGhpcy4gTW9zdCBMTE5zIGRvLiBUaGUgdGVybSBpcyB1c2VkIHRvIHBv c2l0aW9uIHRoZSB3b3JrIGluIHRoZSBJT1Qgc3BhY2UgYXQgdGhlIElFVEYsIGFzIG9wcG9zZWQg dG8sIHNheSwgRXRoZXJuZXQsIHdoaWNoIHdvdWxkIGJlIDZNQU4gdHlwZSBvZiBhY3Rpdml0eS4N Cg0KTExOIGlzIGEgd2lkZSBmYW1pbHkuIElFRUUgODAyLjE1LjQgVFNDSCB1c2VkIGluIDZUaVND SCBpcyBjb25zaWRlcmVkIGFuIExMTiB0aG91Z2ggc29tZSB2YXJpYXRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSB0ZWNo 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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR08MB1090 X-MC-Unique: -xvCalDoSWiBl_5UEutS2w-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR08MB1090762004B7551D3D8245A3FA620AM4PR08MB1090eurp_" Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:55:18 -0000 --_000_AM4PR08MB1090762004B7551D3D8245A3FA620AM4PR08MB1090eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGFzY2FsDQoNCg0KTG9zc3kgb3Igbm90Og0KDQoNCg0Kw5ggIFRoZSBwb2ludCBoZXJlIGlz IHRoYXQgdGhlc2UgV0FOIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyBhaW0gdG8gYmUgbG93IHBvd2VyLiBMb3NzIG9m IHBhY2tldHMgaXMgYWx3YXlzIGFuIGlzc3VlIHdpdGggd2lyZWxlc3MgdGVjaG5vbG9naWVzIGJ1 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kee16aqdRfdL for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (relay4-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8A1412D51F for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:660:7301:3728:c893:952a:d41b:e1c7] (unknown [IPv6:2001:660:7301:3728:c893:952a:d41b:e1c7]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9E1E1720A3; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:06:45 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E7338A18-5855-4810-BBC7-D51CD0E332C4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:06:59 +0200 Message-Id: <7D5828BE-158A-48F8-83E9-E43ED30374A1@ackl.io> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <9ce01a3a666c413893ce9c42ee9644da@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Alper Yegin Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:06:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E7338A18-5855-4810-BBC7-D51CD0E332C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Hannes, > Le 25 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 09:55, Hannes Tschofenig = a =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Hi Pascal > =20 > Lossy or not: > =20 > =C3=98 The point here is that these WAN technologies aim to be low = power. Loss of packets is always an issue with wireless technologies but = some of these radios offer functionality already at the link layer to = deal with those. The question is whether, from a marketing point of = view, some of these organizations recognize themselves and their work = when we talk about lossy and low power networks. I see your point here. This was one of the reasons for me supporting the = 6LPWA ("six el-p way") name of the proposed group - so that people can = readily identify our work. (I already can imagine the "Go the six el-p = way" advertisements;). Will mentioning LLNs scare some of them? This = remains to be seen.=20 Honestly, personally I won=E2=80=99t insist on LLN, and the use of LLN = seems justified. So, if the group feels that this should be removed, = then we=E2=80=99ll do it. > =20 > Requirements and problem statements: =20 > =20 > =C3=98 While I am not a huge fan of either document requirements work = nor publishing those as RFCs I believe there is a bit of work that needs = to be done to analyse which problems (related to specific low power WAN = technologies) to focus on. Whether the analysis is written on the WG = Wiki or put into a document I don=E2=80=99t really care but an honest = assessment of WHO needs WHAT functionality would be good. 100% with you on this! We already have solid base on which to build on = (draft-minaburo-lp-wan-gap-analysis-01 and = draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00). I=E2=80=99d say that we should keep = using the IETF way of doing this - drafts, which will (most probably) = not result in RFCs, but which will help guide the process.=20 Do you like this approach? Best, Alexander > =20 > Ciao > Hannes > =20 > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: 25 April 2016 09:48 > To: Alper Yegin > Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 > =20 > Hello Alper: > =20 > I think I agree with your points, but do not have an easy answer. Let = us go through the intent and then we=E2=80=99ll see how we can adapt the = text. > =20 > =20 > =C3=98 Not sure if we really want to frame these technologies as = "lossy", as some of them do have reliability features. > =20 > Not disputing this. Most LLNs do. The term is used to position the = work in the IOT space at the IETF, as opposed to, say, Ethernet, which = would be 6MAN type of activity. > =20 > LLN is a wide family. IEEE 802.15.4 TSCH used in 6TiSCH is considered = an LLN though some variations of the technology exhibit 5 nines of = reliability. > =20 > We can try to forge another term (getting LLN was a long hard road), = or attempt to avoid using one. Maybe just using IOT. Would you have a = suggestion? > =20 > =20 > Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding the = whole chain. > =20 > =C3=98 It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of = the stack may not be using IP. If we were to get into the pros and cons = of doing that in the charter, the discussion may expand unnecessarily > =20 > The fact that there is no IP is not a justification for placing IP in = there (at least outside the IETF). We need to explain what the value is = for taking that path. I=E2=80=99m open to different explanation, but we = need something that we can use at the BoF. Because a central question = will be why he IETF should even be involved? > =20 > Note that the first section is mostly a requirement section for use at = the BoF, as opposed to the second section that is descriptive of the = working group. As such, is not expected to make it to the final charter.=20= > =20 > Do you have suggestions for replacement? > =20 > o eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > o =20 > =C3=98 It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, = before discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by = the problem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product = is used. > It certainly is. Please note (and see Carsten=E2=80=99s comments) that = the IETF is changing, and at present, our A-Ds are not so keen on = spending a WG round on requirement drafts. Or accepting such a draft as = an Informational RFC at the end of the process. > =20 > This is why I=E2=80=99m attempting a work item 1 which would be the = support for what you=E2=80=99re asking here, in a form that will have = value beyond a list of requirements and hopefully will pass the IESG = (see RFC 7554). > =20 > Bottom line: we need to have at least one set of well-understood = requirements before the WG is formed, and then we can gather more as we = go using work Item 1. This charter will act as a first pass of = requirements/problem-statement, all wrapped in one. My bet is that work = item 3, when fully reviewed, is a well-understood requirement that TechX = will be willing to adopt at some point. This is why it is critical to = get feedback on that particular work item from the TechX stakeholders. > =20 > Which boils down to your last point: > =20 > =C3=98 We'd need to nail down which technologies need that. > =20 > Certainly, this is priority number one. > =20 > We need people from TechX stakeholders to present themselves on this = list, review the charter, and help us write the initial work items. > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Pascal > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Pascal > =20 > From: Alper Yegin [mailto:alper.yegin@actility.com = ]=20 > Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 09:09 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 > =20 > Hello Dear Pascal, > =20 > Thank you for doing this, and please see below for my first round of = comments/recommendations. > =20 > =20 > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > =20 > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > =20 > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged = under the > =20 > Not sure if we really want to frame these technologies as "lossy", as = some of them do have reliability features. > =20 > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). =46rom the variety of LPWA = technologies > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common = characteristics can > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for = wireless > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > =20 > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame = sizes, > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. = This > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, = simplifies and > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > =20 > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized = and very > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and = the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed = deployments, > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access = technology > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > =20 > It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of the stack = may not be using IP. > If we were to get into the pros and cons of doing that in the charter, = the discussion may expand unnecessarily. > =20 > =20 > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new = ecosystems, > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for = management > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can = contribute > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to = secure the > operations and manage the devices and their gateways.=20 > =20 > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > =20 > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power = Wide-Area > technologies , and , and will leverage = cross-participation > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking = place > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > =20 > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies = for IETF > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA = networks > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to = optimize IPv6 > operations to the device. > =20 > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF = Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > =20 > Work Items: > ----------- > =20 > The group will: > =20 > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing = LPWA > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics = but will > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > =20 > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, = highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these = documents may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > =20 > =20 > It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, before = discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by the = problem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product is = used. > =20 > =20 > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 = over LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic = YANG data > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related = state > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the = selected > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the = fields > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > =20 > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets = over LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new = Standard > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > =20 > =20 > We'd need to nail down which technologies need that. > =20 > Alper > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank = you._______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = --Apple-Mail=_E7338A18-5855-4810-BBC7-D51CD0E332C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Hannes,

Le 25 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 09:55, = Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Hi = Pascal
 
Lossy or = not:
 
=C3=98  The point here is that = these WAN technologies aim to be low power. Loss of packets is always an = issue with wireless technologies but some of these radios offer = functionality already at the link layer to deal with those. The question = is whether, from a marketing point of view, some of these organizations = recognize themselves and their work when we talk about lossy and low = power networks.

I see your point here. This was one of the reasons = for me supporting the 6LPWA ("six el-p way") name of the proposed group = - so that people can readily identify our work. (I already can imagine = the "Go the six el-p way" advertisements;). Will mentioning LLNs scare = some of them? This remains to be seen. 

Honestly, personally I won=E2=80=99t insist on = LLN, and the use of LLN seems justified. So, if the group feels that = this should be removed, then we=E2=80=99ll do it.

 
Requirements = and problem statements:  
 
=C3=98  While I am not a huge = fan of either document requirements work nor publishing those as RFCs I = believe there is a bit of work that needs to be done to analyse which = problems (related to specific low power WAN technologies) to focus on. = Whether the analysis is written on the WG Wiki or put into a document I = don=E2=80=99t really care but an honest assessment of WHO needs WHAT = functionality would be = good.

100% with you on this! We already have solid base = on which to build on (draft-minaburo-lp-wan-gap-analysis-01 = and draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00). I=E2=80=99d say that we = should keep using the IETF way of doing this - drafts, which will (most = probably) not result in RFCs, but which will help guide the = process. 

Do you like this = approach?

Best,
Alexander

 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Pascal Thubert = (pthubert)
Sent: 25 April 2016 09:48
To: Alper Yegin
Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed = charter v3
 
Hello Alper:
 
I = think I agree with your points, but do not have an easy answer. Let us = go through the intent and then we=E2=80=99ll see how we can adapt the = text.
 
 
=C3=98  Not sure if we really want to frame these technologies as = "lossy", as some of them do have reliability features.
 
Not disputing = this. Most LLNs do. The term is used to position the work in the IOT = space at the IETF, as opposed to, say, Ethernet, which would be 6MAN = type of activity.
 
LLN= is a wide family. IEEE 802.15.4 TSCH used in 6TiSCH is considered an = LLN though some variations of the technology exhibit 5 nines of = reliability.
 
We can try to = forge another term (getting LLN was a long hard road), or attempt to = avoid using one. Maybe just using IOT. Would you have a suggestion?
 
 
Migrating from one access = technology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.
 
=C3=98  It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of = the stack may not be using IP. If we were to get into the pros and cons = of doing that in the charter, the discussion may expand = unnecessarily
 
The fact that = there is no IP is not a justification for placing IP in there (at least = outside the IETF). We need to explain what the value is for taking that = path. I=E2=80=99m open to different explanation, but we need something = that we can use at the BoF. Because a central question will be why he = IETF should even be involved?
 
Note that the first section is mostly a requirement section = for use at the BoF, as opposed to the second section that is descriptive = of the working group. As such, is not expected to make it to the final = charter. 
 
Do you have = suggestions for replacement?
 
o   eventually be published as Informational RFCs.
o    
=C3=98  It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, = before discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by = the problem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product = is used.
It certainly = is. Please note (and see Carsten=E2=80=99s comments) that the IETF is = changing, and at present, our A-Ds are not so keen on spending a WG = round on requirement drafts. Or accepting such a draft as an = Informational RFC at the end of the process.
 
This is why = I=E2=80=99m attempting a work item 1 which would be the support for what = you=E2=80=99re asking here, in a form that will have value beyond a list = of requirements and hopefully will pass the IESG (see RFC 7554).
 
Bottom line: = we need to have at least one set of well-understood requirements before = the WG is formed, and then we can gather more as we go using work Item = 1. This charter will act as a first pass of = requirements/problem-statement, all wrapped in one. My bet is that work = item 3, when fully reviewed, is a well-understood requirement that TechX = will be willing to adopt at some point. This is why it is critical to = get feedback on that particular work item from the TechX = stakeholders.
 
Which boils down to your last point:
 
=C3=98  We'd need to nail down which technologies need = that.
 
Certainly, = this is priority number one.
 
We = need  people from TechX stakeholders to present themselves on this = list, review the charter, and help us write the initial work items.
 
Cheers,
 
Pascal
 
 
 
 
 
Cheers,
 
Pascal
 
From: Alper Yegin [mailto:alper.yegin@actility.com] 
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 = 09:09
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed = charter v3
 
Hello Dear = Pascal,
 
Thank you = for doing this, and please see below for my first round of = comments/recommendations.
 
 
6LPWA: = "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".
 
Background/Introduction:
------------------------
 
A new generation of Low-power and Lossy = Networks (LLNs) has emerged under the
 
Not sure if we really want to frame these technologies as = "lossy", as some of them do have reliability features.
 
generic = name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). =46rom the variety of LPWA = technologies
that is already proposed in = this market, a number of common characteristics can
be gathered which make these technologies = unique and disruptive for wireless
Internet = of Things (IOT) applications.
 
Those common family traits include ultra low = bit-rate and small frame sizes,
rare = transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. = This
provides a significant = improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and
lowers the cost of deployments at large = scale.
 
Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer = formats are optimized and very
specific = to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the
application is often hard wired to the MAC, = leading to very silo'ed deployments,
managed, secured and operated individually. = Migrating from one access technology
to another implies rebuilding the whole = chain.
 
It may be better to simply say that the over-the-air part of = the stack may not be using IP.
If we were to get = into the pros and cons of doing that in the charter, the discussion may = expand unnecessarily.
 
 
To unleash the full power of these new = technologies and their new ecosystems,
there is a need to couple them with other = ecosystems that will guarantee the
interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management
and = security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can = contribute
by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to = the devices, and propose technologies to secure the
operations and manage the devices and their = gateways. 
 
Description of Working Group:
-----------------------------
 
The = Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power = Wide-Area
technologies <tech1>, = <Tech2> and <Tech3>, and will leverage = cross-participation
with the = associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place
corresponds to real demands and the proposed = solutions are applicable.
 
The group will produce informational work = describing LPWA technologies for IETF
consumption, best practice documents on using = IETF technology in LPWA networks
directed = to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize = IPv6
operations to the device.
 
The WG = will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet,
Operations and Management, and Security = Areas.
 
Work Items:
-----------
 
The group = will:
 
1. Produce an Informational document = describing and relating existing LPWA
technologies. This document will highlight the = common characteristics but will
not aim = at providing a competitive analysis.
 
2. = Produce best practice documents for security and management, = highlighting
potential areas where IETF = technologies may be leveraged; these documents may
eventually be published as Informational = RFCs.
 
 
It'd be good to start from identifying the problems first, = before discussing the solutions here. Solution work should be gated by = the problem statement, if we really want to make sure the IETF product = is used.
 
 
3. Produce Standard = Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA.
Considering the extreme constraints, the work = will focus on a generic YANG data
model to = enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state
at the compression end-points; the work will = also include, for the selected
technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe = how the fields
relevant to the = decompression are encoded over the air, if any.
 
4. = Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over = LPWA,
either as a Best Practice = leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard
Track document if that is deemed = necessary.
 
 
We'd need = to nail down which technologies need that.
 
Alper
 
 
 
 
 

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



 
 
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and = any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are = not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do = not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, = or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you._______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
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IHVzZSBpdCBmb3IgYW55IHB1cnBvc2UsDQogb3Igc3RvcmUgb3IgY29weSB0aGUgaW5mb3JtYXRp b24gaW4gYW55IG1lZGl1bS4gVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_AM4PR08MB1090E3BD5E1622016A29A16CFA620AM4PR08MB1090eurp_-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 02:21:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7382812D572 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:21:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jyl9T0EbZPNn for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from violet.upc.es (violet.upc.es [147.83.2.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 111D612D570 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 02:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entelserver.upc.edu (entelserver.upc.es [147.83.39.4]) by violet.upc.es (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id u3P9LPqX021941; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:21:25 +0200 Received: from webmail.entel.upc.edu (webmail.entel.upc.edu [147.83.39.6]) by entelserver.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012751D53C1; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 131.111.5.15 by webmail.entel.upc.edu with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:21:57 +0200 Message-ID: <7f5ea8f59e0bf7165148ddfbd7c2b52c.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:21:57 +0200 From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.21-1.fc14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd X-Greylist: IP, sender and recipient auto-whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (violet.upc.es [147.83.2.51]); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:21:26 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , josep.paradells@entel.upc.edu, jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:21:37 -0000 Hi Pascal, all, First of all, thanks a lot for the proposed charter. Please find a few comments below: A.- Work item 1. As you mention, this work item would be similar to what RFC 7554 was for 6TiSCH (and I assume, to some extent, also similar to what RFC 4919 was for 6LoWPAN), wouldn't it add value and clarification to explicitly add "problem statement" in its description? B.- WG name. I have the impression (totally subjective) that "6LPWA" is still somewhat similar to a "6LoWPAN" typo, although it is better than "6LPWAN". In this regard, I liked Alexander's earlier proposal "6WiDe", even if it did not explicitly contain the "low-power" component. Building on top of that, what about "6LPWide"? C.- I second Carsten's comment about not using the LLN term. I would suggest the following in the proposed charter: s/Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs)/low-power wireless networks D.- I would suggest the following: OLD: Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes, rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. NEW: Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate (as low as ~10-100 bit/s) and small frame sizes (with maximum payload size between ~10 and ~100 bytes), rare transmissions (e.g. ~0.1 messages/minute), specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range (up to ~10 km) and battery lifetime (~10 years), simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. E.- In the charter, shouldn't we talk about LPWAN instead of LPWA? In the first sentence, the charter mentions low power and lossy "networks", so for consistency, we should talk about LPWA "networks". Also this would be similar to talking about "WLAN" instead of "WLA". However, if "LPWA" is required for better compatibility with the candidate WG name of "6LPWA", I would accept it. Cheers, Carles > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under > the > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA > technologies > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common > characteristics can > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for > wireless > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > very > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access > technology > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee > the > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for > management > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can > contribute > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to > secure the > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area > technologies , and , and will leverage > cross-participation > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking > place > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for > IETF > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA > networks > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to > optimize IPv6 > operations to the device. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > Work Items: > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but > will > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over > LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG > data > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related > state > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the > selected > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Mon Apr 25 04:53:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC25C12D15B for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 04:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 673MjWeRr0e4 for ; 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charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 ______________________________________ Prof Mischa Dohler Head, Centre for Telecom Research Chair Professor, King's College London Board of Directors, Worldsensing Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT Fellow, IEEE www.mischadohler.com ______________________________________ On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: > While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is > neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are > actually trying to do. --------------952E1E93CDC4C42D0490648C Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

+1

______________________________________

Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE

www.mischadohler.com
______________________________________
On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote:
While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are
actually trying to do.

--------------952E1E93CDC4C42D0490648C-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 05:02:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7649D12D1C9 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lLf6rtoW-b0h 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Carsten Bormann , Juan Carlos Zuniga Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:02:10 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:01:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_eeaac81c495143bc91e1330627f6cb90XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Alexander Pelov Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Pascal, Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute. (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Mischa: > > I’m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? > You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the > IETF for IOT links. > > I can see WSN, “low power radio” … any suggestion? > > Pascal > > *From:*Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 > *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga > > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Alexander Pelov > > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > +1 > > ______________________________________ > Prof Mischa Dohler > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > Chair Professor, King's College London > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT > Fellow, IEEE > www.mischadohler.com > ______________________________________ > > On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is > > neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are > > actually trying to do. > --------------CE5F593C2F01EE3AD3F42C07 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Pascal,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

 

I’m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, “low power radio” … any suggestion?

 

Pascal

 

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

 

+1

______________________________________
 
Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE
 
www.mischadohler.com
______________________________________

On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote:

While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are
actually trying to do.

 


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, Carsten Bormann , Juan Carlos Zuniga Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w//+0mgCAAE9RsA== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:42:11 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:41:37 +0000 Message-ID: <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523cXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Alexander Pelov Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:42:44 -0000 --_000_2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523cXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VHJ5aW5nOyB3aGF0IGFib3V0Og0KDQrigJwNCkEgbmV3IGdlbmVyYXRpb24gb2Ygd2lyZWxlc3Mg dGVjaG5vbG9naWVzIGhhcyBlbWVyZ2VkIHVuZGVyIHRoZSBnZW5lcmljIG5hbWUgb2YNCkxvdy1Q b3dlciBXaWRlLUFyZWEgKExQV0EpLCB3aXRoIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIGNvbW1vbiBjaGFyYWN0ZXJp c3RpY3Mgd2hpY2ggbWFrZQ0KdGhlc2UgdGVjaG5vbG9naWVzIHVuaXF1ZSBhbmQgZGlzcnVwdGl2 ZSBmb3IgSW50ZXJuZXQgb2YgVGhpbmdzIGRhdGEgY29sbGVjdGlvbg0KYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLg0K 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text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Very good! Thanks, Pascal. PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove "data collection". #justsaying Mischa. On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Trying; what about: > > “ > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the > generic name of > > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics > which make > > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data > collection > > applications. > > Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and > the order of > > a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern > over a basic > > star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery > lifetime, with 10 > > years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the > deployment at > > a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and > operations. > > <…> > > “ > > Cheers, > > Pascal > > *From:*Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Carsten Bormann > ; Juan Carlos Zuniga > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; > Alexander Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > Dear Pascal, > > Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping > the term instead of using a substitute. > > (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) > > Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. > > On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Mischa: > > I’m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use > instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated > term at the IETF for IOT links. > > I can see WSN, “low power radio” … any suggestion? > > Pascal > > *From:*Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 > *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan > Carlos Zuniga > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) > ; lp-wan@ietf.org > ; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > ; Alexander Pelov > > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > +1 > > ______________________________________ > > > > Prof Mischa Dohler > > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > > Chair Professor, King's College London > > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT > > Fellow, IEEE > > > > www.mischadohler.com > > ______________________________________ > > On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is > > neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are > > actually trying to do. > --------------28BE336C98F5E27B0B99FF2E Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying

Mischa.


On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Trying; what about:

 

“

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

 

Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio modulation.

 

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operations.

 

<…>

“

 

 

Cheers,

 

Pascal

 

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

 

Dear Pascal,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

 

I’m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, “low power radio” … any suggestion?

 

Pascal

 

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

 

+1

______________________________________
 
Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE
 
www.mischadohler.com
______________________________________

On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote:

While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are
actually trying to do.

 

 


--------------28BE336C98F5E27B0B99FF2E-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 05:49:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 057B912D5AE for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4MPAVpyiJng for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22d.google.com (mail-lb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AABF12D1E5 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id os9so77214715lbb.2 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:49:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=p+niqAFZNLBc8qX9ry8QmrBW+8qOb+b9T9Bt1jnp3R8=; b=exa28OONIjD75CIlLytG+r6sF0QxLMBCJmqg0sX2UHLOkYskhyswmct8LtmhCtKDvF auOWGtobmZfD8Y7Y6japiO5zJvzmkJWQIurFB34pAoHYFftMPRulLcL6WN1feVllyDQr sEAhYdOAiPcN3Cus7hi3ZaAkL0it5seJOH75W2iZW9GYTVXH5UXrREnWnGmxFpmlOqSx T4gKTK69EBOyrnBmYplm5PwBYK+XSb/Yqhuk5FZd8t3QJCTWy5N9KD1NIZO/BqBXmsV5 zveX2myyNuuJeVG3BJ2lBSWWtkiwSAr9lqv6rLkN/EIeFT5566BBoOddQiAWjhYBbL/v t+5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=p+niqAFZNLBc8qX9ry8QmrBW+8qOb+b9T9Bt1jnp3R8=; b=LPX7+x9D6RUM/TxfBks42XRwoCFPyhS3EVOLnMPiUlu/SrwhAuq2jZ8uSQm9d6OsTx UUI9kghtvyLuBvISLn5miSI8Pqk5mrecQdfJRrn0NnnDVPTp4Nph2aDMK4PIc9lY5AOQ xk1EI6ohTC+bk5WNHNduFHAF1CmZZiGl0Z6PbnqfVkkHG8LGTMjNe5ed/0e/K1r6Y8Hs UBmOCAm073AXndZZP7qmedqh2XNOR6JOBCEeBZtHZR/hZBCqDh/N67q6wohB4WeyBsE7 gKHuy4DX+ttczSPVxxLCd4EHQAzGm4GG6AI4e4ikFRa1SgniRhxOUFHdTza/eX56ax3l JY8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVMs1AGzbdKqg7YYtXagy9fKMhcAYW9Ra33PYgwiUZGbi8Sbgwoou5AcmLgGAyzyOeOyWNSBTE7lJmyOw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.167.161 with SMTP id zp1mr2871875lbb.17.1461588585334; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: xvilajosana@gmail.com Received: by 10.25.83.193 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:49:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:49:45 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: P3dyPlwrxwPOfPx1hyj8BrGgKBg Message-ID: From: Xavier Vilajosana To: Mischa Dohler Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c344866fced805314e9c65 Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:49:50 -0000 --001a11c344866fced805314e9c65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 for downstream as well. I would say "ten years" instead of 10 years. Xavi 2016-04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa Dohler : > Very good! Thanks, Pascal. > > PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, > drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity > which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here = (I > have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may > have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". > #justsaying > > Mischa. > > > On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Trying; what about: > > > > =E2=80=9C > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data > collection > > applications. > > > > Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the > order of > > a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over = a > basic > > star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. > > > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, > with 10 > > years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the > deployment at > > a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and > operations. > > > > <=E2=80=A6> > > =E2=80=9C > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk > ] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = ; > Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga > > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; > lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > > > Dear Pascal, > > Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the > term instead of using a substitute. > > (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) > > Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. > > On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Mischa: > > > > I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use inst= ead? You > know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for > IOT links. > > I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestion= ? > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk > ] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 > *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan > Carlos Zuniga > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) > ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > ; Alexander > Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > > > +1 > > ______________________________________ > > > > Prof Mischa Dohler > > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > > Chair Professor, King's College London > > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT > > Fellow, IEEE > > > > www.mischadohler.com > > ______________________________________ > > On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is > > neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are > > actually trying to do. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --001a11c344866fced805314e9c65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 for downstream as well.

I= would say=C2=A0
"ten years" instead of 10 years.

Xavi


<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2016-04-25 14:46 G= MT+02:00 Mischa Dohler <mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> =20 =20 =20
Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying

Mischa.


On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Trying; what about:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= u>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:windowtext"> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &= lt;pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cab= o@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga = <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) &l= t;paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <= a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal= ,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 an= y suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; = lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@= ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
              
=C2=A0

              
Prof Mischa Dohler

              
Head, Centre for Telecom Research

              
Chair Professor, King's College London=


              
Board of Directors, Worldsensing

              
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT

              
Fellow, IEEE

              
=C2=A0

              
www.mischadohler.com

              
______________________________________
              

                
On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten
                  Bormann wrote:

              

              

                
While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "L=
LN"? This is

                
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-W=
AN people are

                
actually trying to do.

              

              
=C2=A0

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan


--001a11c344866fced805314e9c65-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 06:12:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5978912D5C3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=telecom-bretagne.eu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mi9bZmFhUrba for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr (zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr [192.108.117.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7814E12D4FC for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739AF232059 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:12:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id IUozUqvlJliy for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:12:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3F3232062 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:12:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr 1F3F3232062 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telecom-bretagne.eu; s=CFDC2CFA-4654-11E5-AACD-7BCC68B6580D; t=1461589937; bh=2+fhyWg1uYYr+2COid8Aj5wMsKP0aWaoo33uBYut4Fo=; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To:Content-Type; b=bA8THleNB8Jjs29lFW1Xjq7Mbu3WlGSoW5Gq4VuhgBeXq8xbHPqvbLV9jd/Ksnfti XnxQ+QMvZIMo7EyPVD4fobdXjraVzIzXQLGjbLBfKbudAnYcOql6QYweLwTBQs9/2M I1u+yAaCMKerBSCxapL54DAKQdzty98TtcWYeuGo= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr Received: from zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id p64YzFcNlFpS for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:12:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-yw0-f169.google.com (mail-yw0-f169.google.com [209.85.161.169]) by zproxy210.enst-bretagne.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 713B7232055 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:12:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-yw0-f169.google.com with SMTP id o66so208847405ywc.3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:12:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUb2NPS47HsVJ+jx1dMcZZs+Hm92laH/bkHvCBeU4XMjfISJ9jMuONGirCfxEk0NVoL7ZqUh128R5Tzzg== X-Received: by 10.13.228.2 with SMTP id n2mr22867547ywe.23.1461589935123; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:12:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.32.136 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:11:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> From: Laurent Toutain Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:11:35 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c035518e4124805314eecf8 Archived-At: Cc: Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:12:22 -0000 --94eb2c035518e4124805314eecf8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pascal, Very nice, I've two comments: I also agree that upstream is a little bit restrictive, but we have to insist on that because it has an impact on protocols and we will cover that case. I propose something like: Those common family traits include, over a basic star topology and an optimized radio modulation, frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly upstream transmission pattern. The other concern is the lasts word "operations". One goal of the wg will be to simplify operation and management. If we say that it is already low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not that high. I will just write This also simplifies the deployment at a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices and infrastructure. Laurent On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler wrote: > Very good! Thanks, Pascal. > > PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, > drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity > which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here = (I > have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may > have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". > #justsaying > > Mischa. > > > On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Trying; what about: > > > > =E2=80=9C > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data > collection > > applications. > > > > Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the > order of > > a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over = a > basic > > star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. > > > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, > with 10 > > years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the > deployment at > > a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and > operations. > > > > <=E2=80=A6> > > =E2=80=9C > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk > ] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = ; > Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga > > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; > lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > > > Dear Pascal, > > Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the > term instead of using a substitute. > > (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) > > Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. > > On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Mischa: > > > > I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use inst= ead? You > know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for > IOT links. > > I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestion= ? > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk > ] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 > *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan > Carlos Zuniga > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) > ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > ; Alexander > Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > > > +1 > > ______________________________________ > > > > Prof Mischa Dohler > > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > > Chair Professor, King's College London > > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT > > Fellow, IEEE > > > > www.mischadohler.com > > ______________________________________ > > On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is > > neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are > > actually trying to do. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Laurent Toutain +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne --------= ---+ | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 | Visit : | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 | http://class.touta.in | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ --94eb2c035518e4124805314eecf8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pascal,=C2=A0

Very nice, I've tw= o comments:

I also agree that upstream is a little= bit restrictive, but we have to insist on that because it has an impact on= protocols and we will cover that case. I propose something like:

Those common family traits include,=C2=A0over a basic= =C2=A0star topology and an optimized radio modulation,= =C2=A0=C2=A0frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few = transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly upstream=C2=A0transmission pattern.


The other concer= n is the lasts word "operations". One goal of the wg will be to s= implify operation and management. If we say that it is already low cost, th= e benefit of IETF will be not that high. I will just write=C2=A0

This also simplifies the deplo= yment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices and infr= astructure.


Laurent

 --94eb2c035518e4124805314eecf8-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 06:25:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3500D12D595 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:25:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXBB0iRm02q3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 468D112D1AB for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 06:25:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8377; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461590742; x=1462800342; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=qTdsMWbNpPWYmKwPsAYjjlDplnyWrwk3JSsHDe3pK8M=; b=jBxSc28ugHrfst3gXaLg1kHOWwN/Pu7vH9hoHJSW5XauekBcNpDVAsdR oaQ587EVuMCloeCXbj6Ol/RedW0VVtS3OqJTqMkL7TDbFsfue590wU8DJ itJvjkK8+eEJejj+3mLqmP7oatmdtRbZTxvtZ+3RpTPMA8G90kv6O8fJT k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AlBQB4GR5X/5pdJa1eDoMqU30GuX6Bd?= =?us-ascii?q?RcLhWwCgSk5EwEBAQEBAQFlJ4RBAQEBAwEBAQE3NAMIBQsCAQg2ECcLJQEBBA4?= =?us-ascii?q?FCBOIBwgOwQkBAQEBAQEBAwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSGIYNJgQKECRpUhR4Fh3SFX?= =?us-ascii?q?4o8AY4NgW2ETYhdjy4BIQFAggIDG4EQO2yHZ38BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,532,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="95326412" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Apr 2016 13:25:41 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3PDPeRU007403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:25:41 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:25:40 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:25:40 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Carles Gomez Montenegro Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGeQmDwQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjgAu3HOAAApB0iA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:24:34 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:13:34 +0000 Message-ID: <38d5ca42858f40e1b796733c1dc3d270@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <7f5ea8f59e0bf7165148ddfbd7c2b52c.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: <7f5ea8f59e0bf7165148ddfbd7c2b52c.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "josep.paradells@entel.upc.edu" , "jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:25:44 -0000 Hello Carles: Thanks bunch for your comments! Please see below: >=20 > A.- Work item 1. As you mention, this work item would be similar to what > RFC 7554 was for 6TiSCH (and I assume, to some extent, also similar to wh= at > RFC 4919 was for 6LoWPAN), wouldn't it add value and clarification to > explicitly add "problem statement" in its description? I agree on the need. What I'd like to describe in that WI is a doc that tells 1) what the LPWA t= echnology is (not digging into the specifics of one particular techX) and 2= ) what are the actual needs the IETF could contribute to serve. This should come from the selected LPWA stakeholders, the WG being the gear= box to redistributed that into the IETF. And yes, PS&R used to be the way we did it. Trouble is that 'problem state= ment' and 'requirements' are loaded at the IETF and not too much in the pos= itive way... Proposal for the WI 1: " 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ghts actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. " > B.- WG name. I have the impression (totally subjective) that "6LPWA" is s= till > somewhat similar to a "6LoWPAN" typo, although it is better than > "6LPWAN". In this regard, I liked Alexander's earlier proposal "6WiDe", e= ven > if it did not explicitly contain the "low-power" component. Building on t= op of > that, what about "6LPWide"? Added to the list of candidates : ) Let's keep that in a separate thread. > C.- I second Carsten's comment about not using the LLN term. I would > suggest the following in the proposed charter: >=20 > s/Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs)/low-power wireless networks To avoid saying low power twice, I mixed that proposal with others to get: " A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s. " Looks good? Point taken, but it's not like we have an alternate handy.=20 Please consider my response to Alper. I'm waiting on Alper's answer. > D.- I would suggest the following: >=20 > OLD: > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic > topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and batte= ry > lifetime, simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale= . >=20 > NEW: > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate (as low as > ~10-100 bit/s) and small frame sizes (with maximum payload size > between ~10 and ~100 bytes), rare transmissions (e.g. ~0.1 > messages/minute), specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. Th= is > provides a significant improvement in range (up to ~10 km) and battery > lifetime (~10 years), simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at > large scale. >=20 I see that is a real improvement, though maybe too far on the other side of= precision. Could we convey this information in a more literate way? =20 Also there's redundancy if we express frame/day, bit/s and frame size. What about=20 " This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, wi= th 10 years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployme= nt at a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operat= ion " > E.- In the charter, shouldn't we talk about LPWAN instead of LPWA? In the > first sentence, the charter mentions low power and lossy "networks", so f= or > consistency, we should talk about LPWA "networks". Also this would be > similar to talking about "WLAN" instead of "WLA". However, if "LPWA" is > required for better compatibility with the candidate WG name of "6LPWA", = I > would accept it. I think that outside the IETF, LPWA is the consecrated term... Back to the = WG name, let's make that a thread.=20 Cheers, Pascal >=20 >=20 > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged > > under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety > > of LPWA technologies that is already proposed in this market, a number > > of common characteristics can be gathered which make these > > technologies unique and disruptive for wireless Internet of Things > > (IOT) applications. > > > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > > sizes, rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic > > topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and > > battery lifetime, simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at > > large scale. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized > > and very specific to each individual technology. There is no network > > layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to > > very silo'ed deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. > > Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding the > > whole chain. > > > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > > ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that > > will guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common > > components for management and security, as well as shared application > > profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the > > devices, and propose technologies to secure the operations and manage > > the devices and their gateways. > > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > > Wide-Area technologies , and , and will leverage > > cross-participation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure > > that the work taking place corresponds to real demands and the > > proposed solutions are applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies > > for IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology > > in LPWA networks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new > > standards work to optimize IPv6 operations to the device. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF > > Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing > > LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common > > characteristics but will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > > highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; > > these documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 > > over LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic > > YANG data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install > > the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also > > include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track > > documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are > > encoded over the air, if any. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets > > over LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, > > or as new Standard Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > _______________________________________________ > > lp-wan mailing list > > lp-wan@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > >=20 From nobody Mon Apr 25 07:16:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4D012D0AE for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:16:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GzNoh9c5VKA for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from violet.upc.es (violet.upc.es [147.83.2.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15E9B12B014 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entelserver.upc.edu (entelserver.upc.es [147.83.39.4]) by violet.upc.es (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id u3PEGK3t006396; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:16:20 +0200 Received: from webmail.entel.upc.edu (webmail.entel.upc.edu [147.83.39.6]) by entelserver.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD3D1D53C1; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:16:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 131.111.5.15 by webmail.entel.upc.edu with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:16:51 +0200 Message-ID: <1d8b6b0a4b62cc855488d5bb5ab247b7.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: <38d5ca42858f40e1b796733c1dc3d270@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <7f5ea8f59e0bf7165148ddfbd7c2b52c.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> <38d5ca42858f40e1b796733c1dc3d270@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:16:51 +0200 From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.21-1.fc14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd X-Greylist: Delayed for 04:54:55 by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (violet.upc.es [147.83.2.51]); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:16:20 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "josep.paradells@entel.upc.edu" , "jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:16:38 -0000 Hello Pascal, Thanks for your feedback and updates! Please find below some more inline responses: > Hello Carles: > > Thanks bunch for your comments! Please see below: > >> >> A.- Work item 1. As you mention, this work item would be similar to what >> RFC 7554 was for 6TiSCH (and I assume, to some extent, also similar to >> what >> RFC 4919 was for 6LoWPAN), wouldn't it add value and clarification to >> explicitly add "problem statement" in its description? > > > I agree on the need. > What I'd like to describe in that WI is a doc that tells 1) what the LPWA > technology is (not digging into the specifics of one particular techX) and > 2) what are the actual needs the IETF could contribute to serve. I agree with this scope. > This should come from the selected LPWA stakeholders, the WG being the > gear box to redistributed that into the IETF. > And yes, PS&R used to be the way we did it. Trouble is that 'problem > statement' and 'requirements' are loaded at the IETF and not too much in > the positive way... I see... > Proposal for the WI 1: > > " > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some > LPWA > technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and > highlights > actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to > provide a > competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained > therein > originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may > leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. > " One minor comment here: can the last sentence be read as totally excluding the new lp-wan WG ? >> B.- WG name. I have the impression (totally subjective) that "6LPWA" is >> still >> somewhat similar to a "6LoWPAN" typo, although it is better than >> "6LPWAN". In this regard, I liked Alexander's earlier proposal "6WiDe", >> even >> if it did not explicitly contain the "low-power" component. Building on >> top of >> that, what about "6LPWide"? > > Added to the list of candidates : ) Let's keep that in a separate thread. Yep :) >> C.- I second Carsten's comment about not using the LLN term. I would >> suggest the following in the proposed charter: >> >> s/Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs)/low-power wireless networks > > To avoid saying low power twice, I mixed that proposal with others to get: > " > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things > applications. > " > Looks good? Looks good to me! > Point taken, but it's not like we have an alternate handy. > Please consider my response to Alper. I'm waiting on Alper's answer. > >> D.- I would suggest the following: >> >> OLD: >> Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame >> sizes, rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic >> topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and >> battery >> lifetime, simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at large >> scale. >> >> NEW: >> Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate (as low as >> ~10-100 bit/s) and small frame sizes (with maximum payload size >> between ~10 and ~100 bytes), rare transmissions (e.g. ~0.1 >> messages/minute), specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. >> This >> provides a significant improvement in range (up to ~10 km) and >> battery >> lifetime (~10 years), simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments >> at >> large scale. >> > > I see that is a real improvement, though maybe too far on the other side > of precision. Yes, I agree it is good to avoid being too precise, as it may result in somewhat limiting ourselves. Something less "accurate" but still showing the difference with the set of 6Lo(WPAN) L1/L2 technologies should work. > Could we convey this information in a more literate way? > Also there's redundancy if we express frame/day, bit/s and frame size. > > What about > > " > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, > with 10 > years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the > deployment at > a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and > operation > " Looks good to me! > >> E.- In the charter, shouldn't we talk about LPWAN instead of LPWA? In >> the >> first sentence, the charter mentions low power and lossy "networks", so >> for >> consistency, we should talk about LPWA "networks". Also this would be >> similar to talking about "WLAN" instead of "WLA". However, if "LPWA" is >> required for better compatibility with the candidate WG name of "6LPWA", >> I >> would accept it. > > I think that outside the IETF, LPWA is the consecrated term... Back to the > WG name, let's make that a thread. OK! Cheers, Carles > > Cheers, > > Pascal > >> >> >> > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >> > >> > Background/Introduction: >> > ------------------------ >> > >> > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged >> > under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety >> > of LPWA technologies that is already proposed in this market, a number >> > of common characteristics can be gathered which make these >> > technologies unique and disruptive for wireless Internet of Things >> > (IOT) applications. >> > >> > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame >> > sizes, rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic >> > topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and >> > battery lifetime, simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at >> > large scale. >> > >> > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized >> > and very specific to each individual technology. There is no network >> > layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to >> > very silo'ed deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. >> > Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding the >> > whole chain. >> > >> > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new >> > ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that >> > will guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common >> > components for management and security, as well as shared application >> > profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the >> > devices, and propose technologies to secure the operations and manage >> > the devices and their gateways. >> > >> > Description of Working Group: >> > ----------------------------- >> > >> > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power >> > Wide-Area technologies , and , and will leverage >> > cross-participation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure >> > that the work taking place corresponds to real demands and the >> > proposed solutions are applicable. >> > >> > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies >> > for IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology >> > in LPWA networks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new >> > standards work to optimize IPv6 operations to the device. >> > >> > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF >> > Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >> > >> > Work Items: >> > ----------- >> > >> > The group will: >> > >> > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing >> > LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common >> > characteristics but will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> > >> > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, >> > highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; >> > these documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >> > >> > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 >> > over LPWA. >> > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic >> > YANG data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install >> > the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also >> > include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track >> > documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are >> > encoded over the air, if any. >> > >> > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets >> > over LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, >> > or as new Standard Track document if that is deemed necessary. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > lp-wan mailing list >> > lp-wan@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Mon Apr 25 08:25:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8854812D543 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:25:43 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:25:42 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:25:42 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Laurent Toutain Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w//+0mgCAAE9RsP//uHCAAADgwIAABkdVUA== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:25:13 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:25:07 +0000 Message-ID: <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 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mail-lb0-x243.google.com (mail-lb0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 127E212B03B for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-x243.google.com with SMTP id b1so5720223lbi.3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:28:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc; bh=xpaEw1zn35JOctj8A/dJ6tGuNgMuW1mPAVr31m/fqjE=; b=tkgvWPlNx3s4KNRzt+dVsIGOL2jGbuna6PxCqnsRki8JAiHof6Ch7OgkhEXDcM73TZ gLb7oW2j4j+eJ9TJEGMao2Pr9Xw8IJwsPYzQLIoaWs4jqka+vByEPsIy3Mw5O0j3aGnX VE0ydNghoxFxxkyWwbKuoGDH5S/B/tnaB4BYcO/mQDfTz2SDpplU8SD9C4n2RTNYm9S9 3T+BCNZ4aG6kQbNwuYyF0GDb9/nEwVqD+ppB/o1egPBQbYrTR9pJQ9c5QeAL79kn2uOd 2LvMEYO2xePHSqGsPthZSISZvPJUHKPwjwAVrWF2cu9R3yPXH5IGsPeiyEpB79mbYHTu tObQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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<009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:28:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:28:34 -0000 Hi Pascal, Thanks for posting the charter. Reading it, I could not see the analogy with 6tisch.6tisch was based on a synchronous MAC layer which needed special work in IP layer. While in lpwan, the technologies to be considered do not seem to have similar requirements. Regards, Behcet On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging under the > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety of technologies > is already proposed on the market, a number of common characteristics can be > gathered, which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireless IOT > applications. Those common family traits include ultra-low bitrate, frames size, > and very rare transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range and > battery lifetime. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and very > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deployments, > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access technology > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystems, > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for management > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technology to secure the > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on selected 1 > to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation with the related bodies > to ensure that real demands are being served and the proposed solutions are > applicable. > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for IETF > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA networks > directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new standards work to optimize > IPv6 operations to the device. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > Work Items: > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but will > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA. > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG data > model to enable the compression, and related flows to install the related state > at the end compression points; the work will also include, for selected > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to carry the required encoding > over the air. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard > Track document is that is deemed necessary. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 25 08:39:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7B812D1B9 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:39:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZehuJv7VSwlA for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67B4D12D1B0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14771; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461598784; x=1462808384; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=Ev/jfDeLHjcSTUxZAAFUKxSA6JRuV+MCvxrgMWwS5VI=; b=DC6V5Bz9rzDtjBmwntUTDwoyJRXdwI1Mf8QMXGkzQU4QkzqkSO2br4NC dtcJk+UJVITh3v6bVx8EjZ3jHJ+8tjDWBU1y0NBPwHVSgvMgLfJa5RJPB l9RpJKDxxC34S56sE0xh18o1153EOgluWr0jUqsq5GL9FlXN38+gj8bt8 Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BZBQA2OR5X/5tdJa1egmxMU4EDtH2Gd?= =?us-ascii?q?oYOgTk8EAEBAQEBAQFlHAuESC1eAYEAJgEEGxOID6EzoDgBAQgBAQEBAQEahiG?= =?us-ascii?q?DSYULGikrhR4Fh3SFX4VLhHEBgS2HQ4UdjxePLgE3K4ICHoFLiFN/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,533,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="97511447" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Apr 2016 15:39:43 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3PFdhEZ023753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:39:43 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:39:42 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:39:42 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGfBtPVY4JerGsZSeqDoiyMZmGrzA== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:39:15 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:38:42 +0000 Message-ID: <9e084e4c19e84756a6465524ef72a724@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9e084e4c19e84756a6465524ef72a724XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:39:46 -0000 --_000_9e084e4c19e84756a6465524ef72a724XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s. Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple sta= r topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportuni= ty, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to = stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, wi= th up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple a= nd scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and spe= cific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the applicatio= n is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be man= aged, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to an= other implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there = is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-wor= king at the network layer and enable common components for management and securi= ty, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling= IPv6 connectivity to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the operati= ons and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection= of Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbal= anced over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame forma= ts to accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cann= ot be trivially applied. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set= of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real deman= ds and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing= LPWA technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technol= ogies in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, and new standard track = work to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end device, down to the remote= -I/O model where the device itself is not fully aware of the whole stack. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Ar= ea, Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ghts actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that th= e resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakehold= ers and lead to additional work in the future. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP= /IPv6 packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus = on a generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to insta= ll the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include= , for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe ho= w the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. --_000_9e084e4c19e84756a6465524ef72a724XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks&= quot;.

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerge= d under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common = characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Interne= t of Things applications.

 

Those common traits include an optimized radio modul= ation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes = transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an eq= ually massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally upstream and= allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.

 

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a lo= ng battery lifetime, with up

to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. Thi= s also enables simple and

scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin = infrastructures.

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and specific

to each individual technology. There is no network l= ayer and the application is

often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deplo= yments that must be managed,

secured and operated individually. Migrating from on= e LPWA technology to another

implies rebuilding the whole chain.

 

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and t= heir ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the inter-working

at the network layer and enable common components fo= r management and security,

as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can= contribute by enabling IPv6

connectivity to the devices, and propose technologie= s to secure the operations

and manage the devices and their gateways.

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connec= tivity over a selection of

Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <= ;Tech2> and <Tech3>.

 

These technologies present similar characteristics o= f rare and widely unbalanced

over-the-air transmissions, with little capability t= o alter the frame formats to

accommodate this work, which makes it so that existi= ng IETF work (6lo) cannot be

trivially applied.

 

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation = with the associated set of

stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place co= rresponds to real demands

and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicabl= e.

 

The group will produce informational work, for IETF = consumption, describing LPWA

technologies and their needs, best practice document= s on using IETF technologies

in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, = and new standard track work

to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end dev= ice, down to the remote-I/O

model where the device itself is not fully aware of = the whole stack.

 

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet Area,

Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing some LPWA

technologies. This work will document the common cha= racteristics and highlights

actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is no= t an intention to provide a

competitive analysis. It is expected that the inform= ation contained therein

originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders= , and that this WG may

leverage the resulting document to suggest new activ= ity in other WGs.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is= an expectation that the

resulting document(s) may contribute to the interact= ion with LPWA stakeholders

and lead to additional work in the future.

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6

packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraint= s, the work will focus on a

generic YANG data model to describe the compression,= and protocols to install

the related state at the compression end-points; the= work will also include, for

the selected technologies, specific Standard Track d= ocuments to describe how the

fields relevant to the decompression are encoded ove= r the air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.

--_000_9e084e4c19e84756a6465524ef72a724XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 08:52:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D9612D150 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:52:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id afJ3nBUBN57p for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A33AB12D137 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:52:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5119; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461599534; x=1462809134; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=bYXor0PL46Xm4ZWb++lbt+4yGZ3t/JZyFbCEPYniu8s=; b=dnYMr7/OrSXyk/ZHS9QK8vKzBtrzZpPIJQb6jurQ8lYDHiLYYvXfFZfr ZXuEDLte+QKK5dG8xTjyBy0FHN/5gUaQHwpdB/zpfRCAh1Lri/OYM9iRX MV/DKQXbiyTOGlJRehDjRjkTksz+PcZGIonBxGg7oq+jLQ4dtulmyfEYq w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D/AQB9PB5X/4kNJK1egzhTfQa5cAENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XUXC4VsAoE2OBQBAQEBAQEBZRwLhEEBAQEDAQEBATc0AwgFBwQCAQgRBAEBAR4?= =?us-ascii?q?JBycLFAkIAQEEDgUIE4gHCA7BZQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAREEhiGDS?= =?us-ascii?q?YEChAkahXIFh3SFX4o8AY4NgW2ETYhdjy4BHgEBQoNrbIdnfwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,533,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="264361749" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Apr 2016 15:52:13 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3PFqDNX029838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:52:13 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:52:12 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:52:12 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! Thread-Index: AdGeERPG4e4HDOr6TQ6Wn8oov6kjGQBH/PQAAAondxA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:50:46 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:50:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.17.137] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:52:17 -0000 Hello Behcet: Certainly LPWA is radically different from what we have today in groups lik= e 6lo and 6TiSCH, and the proposed charter indicates ample room for a separ= ate WG. If an analogy is to be found with 6TiSCH, that would be on the prin= ciples to: > introduce new technologies to the IETF=20 > work with external bodies leveraging cross-participation > form a nexus where the problem space coming from outside of the IETF mee= ts a solution space distributed over multiple IETF WGs, > seek for best practice work at least as much as new std track work. Cheers, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Behcet Sarikay= a > Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 17:29 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! >=20 > Hi Pascal, >=20 > Thanks for posting the charter. > Reading it, I could not see the analogy with 6tisch.6tisch was based on a > synchronous MAC layer which needed special work in IP layer. > While in lpwan, the technologies to be considered do not seem to have > similar requirements. >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Behcet >=20 > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging > > under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety > > of technologies is already proposed on the market, a number of common > > characteristics can be gathered, which make these technologies unique > > and disruptive for wireless IOT applications. Those common family > > traits include ultra-low bitrate, frames size, and very rare > > transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range and battery > lifetime. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized > > and very specific to each individual technology. There is no network > > layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to > > very silo'ed deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. > > Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding the > whole chain. > > > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > > ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that > > will guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common > > components for management and security, as well as shared application > > profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the > > devices, and propose technology to secure the operations and manage the > devices and their gateways. > > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on > > selected 1 to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation > > with the related bodies to ensure that real demands are being served > > and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies > > for IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology > > in LPWA networks directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new > > standards work to optimize > > IPv6 operations to the device. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF > > Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing > > LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common > > characteristics but will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > > > 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, > > highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; > > these documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 > over LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic > > YANG data model to enable the compression, and related flows to > > install the related state at the end compression points; the work will > > also include, for selected technologies, specific Standard Track > > documents to carry the required encoding over the air. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets > > over LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, > > or as new Standard Track document is that is deemed necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > lp-wan mailing list > > lp-wan@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 25 09:04:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B46F12D630 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U7kYkZi-yh1r for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x242.google.com (mail-lf0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B864112D633 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x242.google.com with SMTP id u64so8263244lff.2 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc; bh=UXDNTP23A2sI9aD0cSSm5jMrPfLCEHhXvEqSB1WulsE=; b=HFQKRoZJwaqM9R5COHPEtenLkzoC8pVli4Eh232OjsYLMvMjMlaDxOGpDYEql78/EF r0pVfWH0904bggRnRCD46250Sg3J+RqohZmtaJ13BobI+3o7yl8Kd2GSfU+z5McQ9Rpz ELBgPzlVxPAg/ns3HeX/eGw80Lca6kuU1ZuZlaSFvTmJzexc97tx47TORGibClb2ktLR t1cNBa74zfDw5VQ3uAeWc7FOYNisGNZuZuLvijmrXiUjvO98j9aYoinO06gSO+pnsLcV x0904lIf2CmRxuJKM3edobAY7gd+ctopN04LpiqLz/NVLmn1pnCRtXGbxCJ3PBqNw67O 6B3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=UXDNTP23A2sI9aD0cSSm5jMrPfLCEHhXvEqSB1WulsE=; b=hvx/4WLzdvZRYZCrUH5tGzTp+WyjR4OByT6PnKbxBXoKtwxUXVrwQ3JP6togcJXelR b0eHnAgaemwlEWaG2vLFwThDlEmrs+468XmmSqUvvNxT36KrtEg7lwXs2LEZCKR05Gj+ X03KVu8N927Jm/9PohlUwp8wkq39htzt4l1Zp/rctyDxndfv7Q+y2z4hoqAZav4gbUxS b5Un1IMhBM7hYurgfsGj7wh8QNZHR4kz6zLXvrZjHZe/dNhiGksbFPx0M93kF/5dw6a+ ena3W4HxFa5FIWV5ne2XJA+CbRmrr31K5bwHeQc4vkkBg9Fzu8tyUxcU+sSBIL/bj7py a6yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUaSCJAuP/XXpc6eNW4+e5IQ1rxudcAIAEW7qGiJnE+7OBqgDQUQBHroS5Ls3yHuPn3H6h4mYUm8QHIdA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.19.66 with SMTP id j63mr2944578lfi.24.1461600231921; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.252.135 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <009b20d330af45e9aee8b7a8e5bd39bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:03:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:03:59 -0000 Hello Pascal, On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hello Behcet: > > Certainly LPWA is radically different from what we have today in groups like 6lo and 6TiSCH, and the proposed charter indicates ample room for a separate WG. If an analogy is to be found with 6TiSCH, that would be on the principles to: > >> introduce new technologies to the IETF >> work with external bodies leveraging cross-participation >> form a nexus where the problem space coming from outside of the IETF meets a solution space distributed over multiple IETF WGs, >> seek for best practice work at least as much as new std track work. > Hope these are convincing to IETF. Regards, Behcet > Cheers, > > Pascal > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Behcet Sarikaya >> Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 17:29 >> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [lp-wan] proposed charter: comments please! >> >> Hi Pascal, >> >> Thanks for posting the charter. >> Reading it, I could not see the analogy with 6tisch.6tisch was based on a >> synchronous MAC layer which needed special work in IP layer. >> While in lpwan, the technologies to be considered do not seem to have >> similar requirements. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Behcet >> >> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> wrote: >> > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >> > >> > Background/Introduction: >> > ------------------------ >> > >> > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) is emerging >> > under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area. Though a wide variety >> > of technologies is already proposed on the market, a number of common >> > characteristics can be gathered, which make these technologies unique >> > and disruptive for wireless IOT applications. Those common family >> > traits include ultra-low bitrate, frames size, and very rare >> > transmissions to reach orders of magnitude longer range and battery >> lifetime. >> > >> > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized >> > and very specific to each individual technology. There is no network >> > layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to >> > very silo'ed deployments, managed, secured and operated individually. >> > Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding the >> whole chain. >> > >> > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new >> > ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that >> > will guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable common >> > components for management and security, as well as shared application >> > profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the >> > devices, and propose technology to secure the operations and manage the >> devices and their gateways. >> > >> > Description of Working Group: >> > ----------------------------- >> > >> > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over LPWA, focusing on >> > selected 1 to 3 technologies, and will leverage cross-participation >> > with the related bodies to ensure that real demands are being served >> > and the proposed solutions are applicable. >> > >> > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies >> > for IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology >> > in LPWA networks directed to the selected partnering bodies, and new >> > standards work to optimize >> > IPv6 operations to the device. >> > >> > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF >> > Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >> > >> > Work Items: >> > ----------- >> > >> > The group will: >> > >> > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing >> > LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common >> > characteristics but will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> > >> > 2. Produce requirements documents for security and management, >> > highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; >> > these documents may eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >> > >> > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 >> over LPWA. >> > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic >> > YANG data model to enable the compression, and related flows to >> > install the related state at the end compression points; the work will >> > also include, for selected technologies, specific Standard Track >> > documents to carry the required encoding over the air. >> > >> > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets >> > over LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, >> > or as new Standard Track document is that is deemed necessary. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > lp-wan mailing list >> > lp-wan@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 25 09:29:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5A412D61C for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:29:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=gridbeecom.com; Received: from mail-lf0-f46.google.com (209.85.215.46) by AM3PR06MB1089.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:5872::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.466.19; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:29:48 +0000 Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id u64so19566451lff.3 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXWI4Kntu+MDFGjTOrGGf3u3vZpStspIzQmyAcRNsdxFU90EpOcgSz+wuqR+XB1w4ZsfHiJNbLwD/neXg== X-Received: by 10.25.137.130 with SMTP id l124mr1808216lfd.122.1461601783847; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.12.137 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Mu=C3=B1oz?= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:29:04 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Pascal, Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this aspect: "Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation over either a star* or mesh* topology..." Thanks, Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz 2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) : > Dear all: > > > > Thanks a huge bunch for this great activity. We=E2=80=99re progressing in= credibly > fast. > > > > Laurent, please see below > > > > =C3=98 I also agree that upstream is a little bit restrictive, but we ha= ve to > insist on that because it has an impact on protocols and we will cover th= at > case. I propose something like: > > > > =C3=98 Those common family traits include, over a basic star topology an= d an > optimized radio modulation, frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order o= f > a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly > upstream transmission pattern. > > > > Agreed, that=E2=80=99s exactly the point I wanted to make. > > > > The extraordinary longevity has a lot to do with the avoidance of idle > listening, which derives from a vast majority of unacknowledged upstream > transmissions. > > > > Proposal is to follow Mischa=E2=80=99s advice and remove data collection,= and then > mix his text with your proposal above as follows: > > > > =E2=80=9C > > Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation over a > basic > > star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a fe= w > times > > per day, and, though downstream may be emerge as an equally massive > opportunity, > > a mostly upstream transmission pattern which allows the device to stay > longer in > > deep sleep mode. > > =E2=80=9C > > > > > > > > =C3=98 The other concern is the lasts word "operations". One goal of the= wg > will be to simplify operation and management. If we say that it is alread= y > low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not that high. I will just write > > > > =C3=98 This also simplifies the deployment at a huge scale, and enables = low > costs for devices and infrastructure. > > > > > > OK to avoid entering that discussion=E2=80=A6. > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > Laurent > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler > wrote: > > Very good! Thanks, Pascal. > > PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, > drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity > which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here = (I > have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may > have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". > #justsaying > > Mischa. > > > > On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Trying; what about: > > > > =E2=80=9C > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data > collection > > applications. > > > > Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the > order of > > a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over = a > basic > > star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. > > > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, > with 10 > > years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the > deployment at > > a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and > operations. > > > > <=E2=80=A6> > > =E2=80=9C > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk > ] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = ; > Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga > > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; > lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > > > Dear Pascal, > > Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the > term instead of using a substitute. > > (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) > > Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. > > On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Mischa: > > > > I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use inst= ead? You > know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for > IOT links. > > I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestion= ? > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk > ] > *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 > *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga > > *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; > lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > ; Alexander Pelov > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 > > > > +1 > > ______________________________________ > > > > Prof Mischa Dohler > > Head, Centre for Telecom Research > > Chair Professor, King's College London > > Board of Directors, Worldsensing > > Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT > > Fellow, IEEE > > > > www.mischadohler.com > > ______________________________________ > > On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is > > neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are > > actually trying to do. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > > > -- > > Laurent Toutain > > +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne ------= -----+ > | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 | > Visit : > > | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | > > | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 | > http://class.touta.in > | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | > +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 --001a113fa5bc21273a053151afe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Pascal,

Thank you for putting all= this together. I propose to modify this aspect: "Those common= family traits include an optimized radio modulation over either a=C2=A0star or mesh topology..."=C2=A0

Thanks,

Jonathan M= u=C3=B1oz

2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = <pthubert@cisco.= com>:

Dear all:

=C2=A0

Thanks a huge bunch for this great ac= tivity. We=E2=80=99re progressing incredibly fast.

=C2=A0

Laurent, please see below

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 I also agree that upstream is a little bit rest= rictive, but we have to insist on that because it has an impact on protocol= s and we will cover that case. I propose something like:

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 Those common family traits inclu= de,=C2=A0over a basic=C2=A0star topology and an optimized radio modu= lation,=C2=A0=C2=A0frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly upstrea= m=C2=A0transmission pattern.

=C2=A0

Agreed, that=E2=80=99s exactly the po= int I wanted to make.

=C2=A0

The extraordinary longevity has a lot= to do with the avoidance of idle listening, which derives from a vast majo= rity of unacknowledged upstream transmissions.

=C2=A0

Proposal is to follow Mischa=E2=80=99= s advice and remove data collection, and then mix his text with your propos= al above as follows:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

Those common family traits include an= optimized radio modulation over a basic

star topology, frame sizes in the ord= er of tens of bytes transmitted a few times

per day, and, though downstream may b= e emerge as an equally massive opportunity,

a mostly upstream transmission patter= n which allows the device to stay longer in

deep sleep mode.=

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 The other concern is the lasts word "opera= tions". One goal of the wg will be to simplify operation and managemen= t. If we say that it is already low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not t= hat high. I will just write=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 This also simplifies the deploym= ent at a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices and infrastructure.<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

OK to avoid entering that discussion= =E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0

Thanks again!<= font color=3D"#888888">

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Laurent

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler <<= a href=3D"mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">mischa.dohler@k= cl.ac.uk> wrote:

Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators,= drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity whi= ch is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I ha= ve skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could ma= ybe remove " data collection". #justsaying<= br>
Mischa.

=C2=A0<= /p>

On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote= :

Trying; what about:<= /u>

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technolo= gies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a nu= mber of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disrupt= ive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include fr= ame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly= upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio= modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilom= eters, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-c= ell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs f= or devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= /u>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.u= k]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the te= rm instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote= :

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense he= re, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.=

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power rad= io=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.u= k]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@iee= e.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.= com>; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
=C2=A0
Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE
=C2=A0
www.mischado=
hler.com
______________________________________

On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote:

While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This i=
s
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are=

actually trying to do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



=C2=A0

--

Laurent Toutain=C2=A0

= +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne --------= ---+
| Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Tel: + 33 2= 99 12 7026 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | V= isit :

= | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|

= | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Fax: +33 2 99 = 12 7030 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|= =C2=A0http://class.tou= ta.in
| Laurent@Touta.in =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
+--------------------------+----------------------------------------+


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Jo= nathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Grid= bee Communications & INRIA Paris
+= 33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83
--001a113fa5bc21273a053151afe5-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 09:35:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DA312D5D7 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZTZJU4JnRVmM for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 281C912B066 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:35:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=31719; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461602156; x=1462811756; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=WbBD9T0WmihaQIDV9kbWtUFXvQgNdpVTo10jH0H5DVA=; b=eA4y5fjbeQjmOweHp1RjSZuOXRXMrjyX/zAXkJc+FIpyzH7c8x/kAxJF EQt3IzkGiXsJOLW3vvCyNOs4tNhOC6au5qLAi2t1EhpU5QsUC0yBgxTGN swuOyZU2pIZz88QIirOz/VzAHxGuSf5GRXMSpSpsOjSeEKhXWRQAHzJtw 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AoBQDDRh5X/5pdJa1egmxMU326BIFxB?= =?us-ascii?q?BcBCoVsAoE3OhIBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBAQEBCWILBQsCAQgRBAEBIQEGByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQOBYgiCA7CCgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARWGIYF1glaEBAUGD?= =?us-ascii?q?gMBAkkJCIJtgisFh3SFX4VLhHEBhXuCdYUkgWZOgimBVohdjy4BDxgLMIICAxu?= =?us-ascii?q?BS2wBhzCBNQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,533,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="95761021" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Apr 2016 16:35:54 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (xch-rcd-010.cisco.com [173.37.102.20]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3PGZsS3030934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:35:54 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (173.37.102.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:35:54 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:35:54 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Jonathan_Mu=F1oz?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w//+0mgCAAE9RsP//uHCAAADgwIAABkdVUAAAnk8AAAo9INs= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:35:53 +0000 Message-ID: <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E91F22DAFB542D3BB046D6448B5CAF8ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Laurent Toutain , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann , Juan Carlos Zuniga Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:35:59 -0000 --_000_2E91F22DAFB542D3BB046D6448B5CAF8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jonathan We can debate that one but I think not. What makes these technologies so simple to deploy is that they trade range = for bandwidth with a single hop... Regards, Pascal Le 25 avr. 2016 =E0 18:29, Jonathan Mu=F1oz > a =E9crit : Hello Pascal, Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this aspect: "= Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation over eithe= r a star or mesh topology..." Thanks, Jonathan Mu=F1oz 2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >: Dear all: Thanks a huge bunch for this great activity. We=92re progressing incredibly= fast. Laurent, please see below > I also agree that upstream is a little bit restrictive, but we have to i= nsist on that because it has an impact on protocols and we will cover that = case. I propose something like: > Those common family traits include, over a basic star topology and an op= timized radio modulation, frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of a = few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly upstream tran= smission pattern. Agreed, that=92s exactly the point I wanted to make. The extraordinary longevity has a lot to do with the avoidance of idle list= ening, which derives from a vast majority of unacknowledged upstream transm= issions. Proposal is to follow Mischa=92s advice and remove data collection, and the= n mix his text with your proposal above as follows: =93 Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation over a bas= ic star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few = times per day, and, though downstream may be emerge as an equally massive opportu= nity, a mostly upstream transmission pattern which allows the device to stay long= er in deep sleep mode. =93 > The other concern is the lasts word "operations". One goal of the wg wil= l be to simplify operation and management. If we say that it is already low= cost, the benefit of IETF will be not that high. I will just write > This also simplifies the deployment at a huge scale, and enables low cos= ts for devices and infrastructure. OK to avoid entering that discussion=85. Thanks again! Pascal Laurent On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler > wrote: Very good! Thanks, Pascal. PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, dro= nes, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which i= s slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have s= kipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have mis= sed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying Mischa. On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: Trying; what about: =93 A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collec= tion applications. Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the ord= er of a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a = basic star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, wi= th 10 years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployme= nt at a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operat= ions. <=85> =93 Cheers, Pascal From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga= Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-= wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Dear Pascal, Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the te= rm instead of using a substitute. (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: Hello Mischa: I=92m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You= know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for I= OT links. I can see WSN, =93low power radio=94 =85 any suggestion? Pascal From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 To: Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga= Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-= wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Alexander Pelov Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 +1 ______________________________________ Prof Mischa Dohler Head, Centre for Telecom Research Chair Professor, King's College London Board of Directors, Worldsensing Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT Fellow, IEEE www.mischadohler.com ______________________________________ On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are actually trying to do. _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan -- Laurent Toutain +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=E9l=E9com Bretagne -----------+ | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99= 12 7026 | Visit : | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 = 12 7030 | http://class.to= uta.in | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telec= om-Bretagne.eu | +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan -- Jonathan Mu=F1oz PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 --_000_2E91F22DAFB542D3BB046D6448B5CAF8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Jonathan 

We can debate that one but I think not.
What makes these technologies so simple to d= eploy is that they trade range for bandwidth with a single hop...


Regards,

Pascal

Le 25 avr. 2016 =E0 18:29, Jonathan Mu=F1oz <jonathan.munoz@gridbeecom.com> a =E9crit = :

Hello Pascal,

Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this aspe= ct: "Those common family traits include an optimized radio mod= ulation over either a star or mesh topology..." 

Thanks,

Jonathan Mu=F1oz

2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (p= thubert) <pthubert@cisco.= com>:

Dear all:

 

Thanks a huge bunch for this great ac= tivity. We=92re progressing incredibly fast.

 

Laurent, please see below

 

=D8  I also agree that upstream is a little bit rest= rictive, but we have to insist on that because it has an impact on protocol= s and we will cover that case. I propose something like:

 

=D8  Those common family traits inclu= de, over a basic star topology and an optimized radio modu= lation,  frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly upstream&n= bsp;transmission pattern.

 

Agreed, that=92s exactly the point I = wanted to make.

 

The extraordinary longevity has a lot= to do with the avoidance of idle listening, which derives from a vast majo= rity of unacknowledged upstream transmissions.

 

Proposal is to follow Mischa=92s advi= ce and remove data collection, and then mix his text with your proposal abo= ve as follows:

 

=93

Those common family traits include an= optimized radio modulation over a basic

star topology, frame sizes in the ord= er of tens of bytes transmitted a few times

per day, and, though downstream may b= e emerge as an equally massive opportunity,

a mostly upstream transmission patter= n which allows the device to stay longer in

deep sleep mode.=

=93

 

 

 

=D8  The other concern is the lasts word "opera= tions". One goal of the wg will be to simplify operation and managemen= t. If we say that it is already low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not t= hat high. I will just write 

 

=D8  This also simplifies the deploym= ent at a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices and infrastructure.<= /span>

 

 

OK to avoid entering that discussion= =85.

 

Thanks again!<= font color=3D"#888888">

 

Pascal

 

 

 

Laurent

 

 

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler <<= a href=3D"mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">mischa.dohler@k= cl.ac.uk> wrote:

Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, dro= nes, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which i= s slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have s= kipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could ma= ybe remove " data collection". #justsaying<= br>
Mischa.

 <= /p>

On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote= :

Trying; what about:<= /u>

 

=93

A new generation of wireless technolo= gies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a nu= mber of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disrupt= ive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

 

Those common family traits include fr= ame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly= upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio= modulation.

 

This enables a range in tens of kilom= eters, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-c= ell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs f= or devices, infrastructure, and operations.

 

<=85>

=93

 

 

Cheers,<= /u>

 

Pascal

 

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.u= k]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

 

Dear Pascal,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the te= rm instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote= :

Hello Mischa:

 

I=92m getting a strong sense here, bu= t then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN i= s a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, =93low power radio=94 = =85 any suggestion?

 

Pascal

 

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.u= k]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@iee= e.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.= com>; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

 

+1

______________________________________
 
Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE
 
www.mischado=
hler.com
______________________________________

On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote:

While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This i=
s
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are=

actually trying to do.

 

 

 


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



 

--

Laurent Toutain 

= +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=E9l=E9com Bretagne ------= -----+
| Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156    | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026               =   | Visit :

= | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900    |         &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;        |

= | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445    | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030               &= nbsp;  |  htt= p://class.touta.in
| Laurent@Touta.in         | La= urent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu    |
+--------------------------+---------------------------------------= -+


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Jonathan Mu=F1oz
PhD student at Gridbee Communications &= INRIA Paris
+33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83
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Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:53:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.12.137 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Mu=C3=B1oz?= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:52:43 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140346cc0b059053152033d" X-Originating-IP: [209.85.215.41] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM3PR08CA0025.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.160.207.163) To DB5PR06MB1096.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.162.159.14) X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: dbe22f81-7eea-4c39-9027-08d36d2a1ec4 X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok I understand but how do we provide connectivity to a node which is out of range from the gateway? That aspect of the topology could be loosen to provide wider range and yet keeping it simple. Cheers, Jonathan 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) : > Hello Jonathan > > We can debate that one but I think not. > What makes these technologies so simple to deploy is that they trade rang= e > for bandwidth with a single hop... > > > Regards, > > Pascal > > Le 25 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 18:29, Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz a > =C3=A9crit : > > Hello Pascal, > > Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this aspect:= "Those > common family traits include an optimized radio modulation over either a > star* or mesh* topology..." > > Thanks, > > Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz > > 2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = : > >> Dear all: >> >> >> >> Thanks a huge bunch for this great activity. We=E2=80=99re progressing i= ncredibly >> fast. >> >> >> >> Laurent, please see below >> >> >> >> =C3=98 I also agree that upstream is a little bit restrictive, but we h= ave >> to insist on that because it has an impact on protocols and we will cove= r >> that case. I propose something like: >> >> >> >> =C3=98 Those common family traits include, over a basic star topology a= nd an >> optimized radio modulation, frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order = of >> a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly >> upstream transmission pattern. >> >> >> >> Agreed, that=E2=80=99s exactly the point I wanted to make. >> >> >> >> The extraordinary longevity has a lot to do with the avoidance of idle >> listening, which derives from a vast majority of unacknowledged upstream >> transmissions. >> >> >> >> Proposal is to follow Mischa=E2=80=99s advice and remove data collection= , and >> then mix his text with your proposal above as follows: >> >> >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation over a >> basic >> >> star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a >> few times >> >> per day, and, though downstream may be emerge as an equally massive >> opportunity, >> >> a mostly upstream transmission pattern which allows the device to stay >> longer in >> >> deep sleep mode. >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =C3=98 The other concern is the lasts word "operations". One goal of th= e wg >> will be to simplify operation and management. If we say that it is alrea= dy >> low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not that high. I will just write >> >> >> >> =C3=98 This also simplifies the deployment at a huge scale, and enables= low >> costs for devices and infrastructure. >> >> >> >> >> >> OK to avoid entering that discussion=E2=80=A6. >> >> >> >> Thanks again! >> >> >> >> Pascal >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Laurent >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler >> wrote: >> >> Very good! Thanks, Pascal. >> >> PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, >> drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity >> which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here= (I >> have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may >> have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". >> #justsaying >> >> Mischa. >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Trying; what about: >> >> >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic >> name of >> >> Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics whic= h >> make >> >> these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data >> collection >> >> applications. >> >> >> >> Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the >> order of >> >> a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over >> a basic >> >> star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. >> >> >> >> This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, >> with 10 >> >> years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the >> deployment at >> >> a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and >> operations. >> >> >> >> <=E2=80=A6> >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> Pascal >> >> >> >> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >> ] >> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 >> *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; >> Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >> >> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; >> lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov >> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> >> >> Dear Pascal, >> >> Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the >> term instead of using a substitute. >> >> (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) >> >> Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. >> >> On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Hello Mischa: >> >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use ins= tead? You >> know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for >> IOT links. >> >> I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestio= n? >> >> >> >> Pascal >> >> >> >> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >> ] >> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 >> *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >> >> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; >> lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> ; Alexander Pelov >> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> >> >> +1 >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> >> >> Prof Mischa Dohler >> >> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >> >> Chair Professor, King's College London >> >> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >> >> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >> >> Fellow, IEEE >> >> >> >> www.mischadohler.com >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is >> >> neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are >> >> actually trying to do. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Laurent Toutain >> >> +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne -----= ------+ >> | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 | >> Visit : >> >> | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | >> >> | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 | >> http://class.touta.in >> | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | >> +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> > > > -- > Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz > PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris > +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 --001a1140346cc0b059053152033d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok I understand but how do we provide connectivity to a no= de which is out of range from the gateway?=C2=A0

That as= pect of the topology could be loosen to provide wider range and yet keeping= it simple.

Cheers,

Jonat= han

20= 16-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>:
Hello Jonathan=C2=A0

We can debate that one but I think not.
What makes these technologies so simple to deploy is that they trade r= ange for bandwidth with a single hop...


Regards,

Pascal

Le 25 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 18:29, Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz <jonathan.munoz@gridbeecom.com= > a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

Hello Pascal,

Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this aspe= ct: "Those common family traits include an optimized radio mod= ulation over either a=C2=A0star or mesh topology..."=C2=A0

Thanks,

Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz

2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthub= ert) <pthubert@cisco.= com>:

Dear all:

=C2=A0

Thanks a huge bunch for this great ac= tivity. We=E2=80=99re progressing incredibly fast.

=C2=A0

Laurent, please see below

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 I also agree that upstream is a little bit rest= rictive, but we have to insist on that because it has an impact on protocol= s and we will cover that case. I propose something like:

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 Those common family traits inclu= de,=C2=A0over a basic=C2=A0star topology and an optimized radio modu= lation,=C2=A0=C2=A0frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are using mostly upstream= =C2=A0transmission pattern.

=C2=A0

Agreed, that=E2=80=99s exactly the po= int I wanted to make.

=C2=A0

The extraordinary longevity has a lot= to do with the avoidance of idle listening, which derives from a vast majo= rity of unacknowledged upstream transmissions.

=C2=A0

Proposal is to follow Mischa=E2=80=99= s advice and remove data collection, and then mix his text with your propos= al above as follows:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

Those common family traits include an= optimized radio modulation over a basic

star topology, frame sizes in the ord= er of tens of bytes transmitted a few times

per day, and, though downstream may b= e emerge as an equally massive opportunity,

a mostly upstream transmission patter= n which allows the device to stay longer in

deep sleep mode.=

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 The other concern is the lasts word "opera= tions". One goal of the wg will be to simplify operation and managemen= t. If we say that it is already low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not t= hat high. I will just write=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C3=98=C2= =A0 This also simplifies the deploym= ent at a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices and infrastructure.<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

OK to avoid entering that discussion= =E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0

Thanks again!

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Laurent

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler <<= a href=3D"mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">mischa.dohler@k= cl.ac.uk> wrote:

Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators,= drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity whi= ch is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I ha= ve skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could ma= ybe remove " data collection". #justsaying<= br>
Mischa.

=C2=A0<= /p>

On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote= :

Trying; what about:<= /u>

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technolo= gies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a nu= mber of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disrupt= ive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include fr= ame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly= upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio= modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilom= eters, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-c= ell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs f= or devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= /u>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.u= k]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the te= rm instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote= :

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense he= re, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that= LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.<= /p>

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power rad= io=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.u= k]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@iee= e.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.= com>; Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
=C2=A0
Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE
=C2=A0
www.mischado=
hler.com
______________________________________

On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote:

While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This i=
s
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are=

actually trying to do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



=C2=A0

--

Laurent Toutain=C2=A0

= +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne --------= ---+
| Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 | Visit :

= | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|

= | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0http:= //class.touta.in
| Laurent@Touta.in =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | La= urent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
+--------------------------+----------------------------------------+


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Gridbee Communications &= INRIA Paris

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Jo= nathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Grid= bee Communications & INRIA Paris
+= 33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83
--001a1140346cc0b059053152033d-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 10:14:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABE112D631 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:14:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bFCeDf0mNWEH for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE68512B018 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:13:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14781; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461604425; x=1462814025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=8UYTuulLOChEHaag28Snf0vo0+FibFpX+mlTm5GC01k=; b=KHX4eiXPs1rxn02GMkmXU+F2DwIYUod7g6myHjtP12LzIQxg2fdEmZg3 VqqTD1Ib766/zNGN+42z7e/S5sdgrK3Uq2VfAFfkxl3SpfMhxIIDvXmfw 1pbdaeV/Ul6eVvxRZYR8Iz4QRxN1arwGVQbvQzrIxVF5a+WrVVqbSMK6u U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CSBQB5Tx5X/4ENJK1egmxMU4EDtH6Gd?= =?us-ascii?q?oYOgTo8EAEBAQEBAQFlHAuESC1eAYEAJgEEGxOID6FSoFQBAQgBAQEBAQEahiG?= =?us-ascii?q?DSYULGikrhR4Fh3SFX4VLhHEBgS2HQ4UdjxePLgE3K4ICHoFLiG1/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,533,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="265200572" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Apr 2016 17:13:44 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3PHDiXm011065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:13:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:13:44 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:13:43 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v4 Thread-Index: AdGfFXYSO+weNvD8Qv+3YtgjsxW+iQ== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:13:41 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:13:24 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.251.70] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a20861e8ef3b439abeae425bd2fe6ad4XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:14:00 -0000 --_000_a20861e8ef3b439abeae425bd2fe6ad4XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s. Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple sta= r topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportuni= ty, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to = stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, wi= th up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple a= nd scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and spe= cific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the applicatio= n is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be man= aged, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to an= other implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there = is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-wor= king at the network layer and enable common components for management and securi= ty, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling= IPv6 connectivity to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the operati= ons and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection= of Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbal= anced over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame forma= ts to accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cann= ot be trivially applied. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set= of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real deman= ds and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing= LPWA technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technol= ogies in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, and new standard track = work to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end device, down to the remote= -I/O model where the device itself is not fully aware of the whole stack. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Ar= ea, Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ghts actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that th= e resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakehold= ers and lead to additional work in the future. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP= /IPv6 packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus = on a generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to insta= ll the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include= , for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe ho= w the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. --_000_a20861e8ef3b439abeae425bd2fe6ad4XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area n= etworks".

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerge= d under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common = characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Interne= t of Things applications.

 

Those common traits include an optimized radio modul= ation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes = transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an eq= ually massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally upstream and= allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.

 

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a lo= ng battery lifetime, with up

to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. Thi= s also enables simple and

scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin = infrastructures.

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and specific

to each individual technology. There is no network l= ayer and the application is

often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deplo= yments that must be managed,

secured and operated individually. Migrating from on= e LPWA technology to another

implies rebuilding the whole chain.

 

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and t= heir ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the inter-working

at the network layer and enable common components fo= r management and security,

as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can= contribute by enabling IPv6

connectivity to the devices, and propose technologie= s to secure the operations

and manage the devices and their gateways.

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connec= tivity over a selection of

Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <= ;Tech2> and <Tech3>.

 

These technologies present similar characteristics o= f rare and widely unbalanced

over-the-air transmissions, with little capability t= o alter the frame formats to

accommodate this work, which makes it so that existi= ng IETF work (6lo) cannot be

trivially applied.

 

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation = with the associated set of

stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place co= rresponds to real demands

and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicabl= e.

 

The group will produce informational work, for IETF = consumption, describing LPWA

technologies and their needs, best practice document= s on using IETF technologies

in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, = and new standard track work

to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end dev= ice, down to the remote-I/O

model where the device itself is not fully aware of = the whole stack.

 

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet Area,

Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing some LPWA

technologies. This work will document the common cha= racteristics and highlights

actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is no= t an intention to provide a

competitive analysis. It is expected that the inform= ation contained therein

originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders= , and that this WG may

leverage the resulting document to suggest new activ= ity in other WGs.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is= an expectation that the

resulting document(s) may contribute to the interact= ion with LPWA stakeholders

and lead to additional work in the future.

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6

packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraint= s, the work will focus on a

generic YANG data model to describe the compression,= and protocols to install

the related state at the compression end-points; the= work will also include, for

the selected technologies, specific Standard Track d= ocuments to describe how the

fields relevant to the decompression are encoded ove= r the air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.

--_000_a20861e8ef3b439abeae425bd2fe6ad4XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 10:25:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9902812B02B for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0whYlhnEjQtt for ; Mon, 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-0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?utf-8?B?Sm9uYXRoYW4gTXXDsW96?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w//+0mgCAAE9RsP//uHCAAADgwIAABkdVUAAAnk8AAAo9INsACWmtgAAcm3DA Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:25:42 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:24:58 +0000 Message-ID: <830617ff353b4da1bde2745c9e179679@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US 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client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B859312B023 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter44-d.gandi.net (mfilter44-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.175]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30167A80CD; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:33:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter44-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter44-d.gandi.net (mfilter44-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JTFUyHEraiMZ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:33:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 10.58.1.150 Received: from webmail.gandi.net (webmail10-d.mgt.gandi.net [10.58.1.150]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0DE6AA80C8; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:33:08 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:33:08 +0200 From: Alexander Pelov To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonathan_Mu=C3=B1oz?= In-Reply-To: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> Message-ID: X-Sender: a@ackl.io User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Laurent Toutain , lp-wan@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann , Juan Carlos Zuniga Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:33:17 -0000 Dear Jonathan, The key point here is that it costs so little to deploy an additional Access Point, and the penalty in terms of Duty Cycling and wasted bandwidth is so great, that Mesh topology should be considered lower priority for the moment. I'd go even further than that - before considering mesh, we should consider multi-star topology, where an end-device is covered by several Access Points. Both of these remarks are based on a simple principle - don't try to address every problem. Find a subset that is tangible and where there are specific demands, shared by the broader community. I'll be happy to work with you towards a "generic topology" solution once we have the major questions addressed. And if we mix this with mostly asymmetric traffic patterns, then you have my full curiosity as a researcher. Until then, from business perspective, I don't see the case for it. Best, Alexander Le 2016-04-25 18:52, Jonathan Muñoz a écrit : > Ok I understand but how do we provide connectivity to a node which is > out of range from the gateway? > > That aspect of the topology could be loosen to provide wider range and > yet keeping it simple. > > Cheers, > > Jonathan > > 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > : > >> Hello Jonathan >> >> We can debate that one but I think not. >> What makes these technologies so simple to deploy is that they trade >> range for bandwidth with a single hop... >> >> Regards, >> >> Pascal >> >> Le 25 avr. 2016 à 18:29, Jonathan Muñoz >> a écrit : >> >> Hello Pascal, >> >> Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this >> aspect: "Those common family traits include an optimized radio >> modulation over either a star_ or mesh_ topology..." >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jonathan Muñoz >> >> 2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> : >> >> Dear all: >> >> Thanks a huge bunch for this great activity. We’re progressing >> incredibly fast. >> >> Laurent, please see below >> >> Ø I also agree that upstream is a little bit restrictive, but we >> have to insist on that because it has an impact on protocols and we >> will cover that case. I propose something like: >> >> Ø Those common family traits include, over a basic star topology >> and an optimized radio modulation, frame sizes in tens of bytes and >> the order of a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are >> using mostly upstream transmission pattern. >> >> Agreed, that’s exactly the point I wanted to make. >> >> The extraordinary longevity has a lot to do with the avoidance of >> idle listening, which derives from a vast majority of unacknowledged >> upstream transmissions. >> >> Proposal is to follow Mischa’s advice and remove data collection, >> and then mix his text with your proposal above as follows: >> >> “ >> >> Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation >> over a basic >> >> star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted >> a few times >> >> per day, and, though downstream may be emerge as an equally massive >> opportunity, >> >> a mostly upstream transmission pattern which allows the device to >> stay longer in >> >> deep sleep mode. >> >> “ >> >> Ø The other concern is the lasts word "operations". One goal of >> the wg will be to simplify operation and management. If we say that >> it is already low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not that high. I >> will just write >> >> Ø This also simplifies the deployment at a huge scale, and enables >> low costs for devices and infrastructure. >> >> OK to avoid entering that discussion…. >> >> Thanks again! >> >> Pascal >> >> Laurent >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler >> wrote: >> >> Very good! Thanks, Pascal. >> >> PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream >> (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally >> massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis >> has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges >> over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), >> we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying >> >> Mischa. >> >> On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Trying; what about: >> >> “ >> >> A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the >> generic name of >> >> Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics >> which make >> >> these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data >> collection >> >> applications. >> >> Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and >> the order of >> >> a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern >> over a basic >> >> star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. >> >> This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery >> lifetime, with 10 >> >> years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the >> deployment at >> >> a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and >> operations. >> >> <…> >> >> “ >> >> Cheers, >> >> Pascal >> >> FROM: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] >> SENT: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 >> TO: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Carsten Bormann >> ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >> CC: Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; >> Alexander Pelov >> SUBJECT: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> Dear Pascal, >> >> Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping >> the term instead of using a substitute. >> >> (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) >> >> Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. >> >> On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Hello Mischa: >> >> I’m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use >> instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated >> term at the IETF for IOT links. >> >> I can see WSN, “low power radio” … any suggestion? >> >> Pascal >> >> FROM: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] >> SENT: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 >> TO: Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >> >> CC: Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; >> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Alexander Pelov >> >> SUBJECT: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> +1 >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> Prof Mischa Dohler >> >> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >> >> Chair Professor, King's College London >> >> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >> >> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >> >> Fellow, IEEE >> >> www.mischadohler.com [1] >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is >> >> neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are >> >> actually trying to do. > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan [2] > > -- > > Laurent Toutain > > +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- Télécom Bretagne > -----------+ > | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 [3] | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 [4] > | Visit : > > | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | > > | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 [5] | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 [6] > | http://class.touta.in [7] > | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | > +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan [2] > > -- > > Jonathan Muñoz > PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris > +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 [8] > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan [2] > > -- > > Jonathan Muñoz > PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris > +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.mischadohler.com > [2] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > [3] tel:%2B33%202%2022%2006%208156 > [4] tel:%2B%2033%202%2099%2012%207026 > [5] tel:%2B33%202%2022%2006%208445 > [6] tel:%2B33%202%2099%2012%207030 > [7] http://class.touta.in > [8] tel:%2B33%20%280%29%206%2059%2005%2093%2083 > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 25 10:49:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730EB12B041 for ; 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Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:49:45 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:49:45 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:49:44 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: call for techX Thread-Index: AdGfGIPQYX+g21L4RwmiIgwX4txHKw== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:49:43 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:49:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.251.70] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c20a4ae9fc20436abbaa2d0580ba3c87XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] call for techX X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:49:47 -0000 --_000_c20a4ae9fc20436abbaa2d0580ba3c87XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all: Thanks to the intense activity over the last few days, I have just posted a= v4 of the LP-WAN draft charter, incorporating many comments on the way; I = expect we're getting quite stable by now, though obviously comments are sti= ll welcome. As you know, a charter is a contract between a WG and the IESG; but before = we get there, this draft is also and mostly a proposal of work for the futu= re group and an invitation to the LPWA stakeholders, as represented by cros= s-participating members in this ML. Based on this proposal of work - and understanding that it is still time to= amend it - I'd like to invite folks to suggest LPWA technologies that coul= d become the techX in the charter. Ideally, this should come from officials= representing the stakeholders, but suggestions / hints are welcome. Fire at will! Pascal --_000_c20a4ae9fc20436abbaa2d0580ba3c87XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all:

 

Thanks to the intense activity over the last few day= s, I have just posted a v4 of the LP-WAN draft charter, incorporating many = comments on the way; I expect we’re getting quite stable by now, thou= gh obviously comments are still welcome.

 

As you know, a charter is a contract between a WG an= d the IESG; but before we get there, this draft is also and mostly a propos= al of work for the future group and an invitation to the LPWA stakeholders,= as represented by cross-participating members in this ML.

 

Based on this proposal of work – and understan= ding that it is still time to amend it – I’d like to invite fol= ks to suggest LPWA technologies that could become the techX in the charter.= Ideally, this should come from officials representing the stakeholders, but suggestions / hints are welcome.

 

Fire at will!

 

Pascal

 

 

 

 

--_000_c20a4ae9fc20436abbaa2d0580ba3c87XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 11:00:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027C112D660 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:00:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sDiMa0HZOL2s for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D504512D65A for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10040; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461607222; x=1462816822; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=PkaVbMaoXnal0WsrwH+oDejsswcOcczYH93mt+VjiUg=; b=X3nFlIQ2kvYneEa+P/TrgWBFnZoyG2ps+2C305cfzyUVs1X9wQRX1blh nwJDooyDZdnT8RJzhDEgNAAEyNADlXlKomIq+q5ossGtWj8aO1mTEJ4Ky 0Owltz0BdnLkJ4z3dwOqmfoC6WR29+JxyTjmmqUgN7rmm7bwaujGwZoyf U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ATBQAtWh5X/49dJa1egzhTfQa6AIF1F?= =?us-ascii?q?wuFbAKBODkTAQEBAQEBAWUnhEEBAQEDAQEBAQk9DBkLBQsCAQgOCicHJwsUEQI?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQ0FFAeIBwgOwjABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVhiGDSYEChAQFBg4DA?= =?us-ascii?q?QKFcgWHdIVfijwBhXuCdYUkgWZOgimBVohdjy4BIgM9ggIDG4FLbAGHSjZ/AQE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,533,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="97552563" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Apr 2016 18:00:21 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (xch-rcd-006.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3PI0L6W029020 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:00:21 GMT Received: from xch-aln-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:00:20 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:00:20 -0500 From: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" To: Alexander Pelov , =?Windows-1252?Q?Jonathan_Mu=F1oz?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w//+0mgCAAE9RsP//uHCAAADgwIAABkdVUAAAnk8AAAo9INsACWmtgAARaf8AADCMMwA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:00:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.246.219] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:00:36 -0000 > that Mesh topology should be considered lower priority for the moment. I tend to agree with this. To start with a single gateway path to the network is a good starting point. Mesh models can be inserted later. Sri On 4/25/16, 10:33 AM, "lp-wan on behalf of Alexander Pelov" wrote: >Dear Jonathan, > >The key point here is that it costs so little to deploy an additional >Access Point, and the penalty in terms of Duty Cycling and wasted >bandwidth is so great, that Mesh topology should be considered lower >priority for the moment. > >I'd go even further than that - before considering mesh, we should >consider multi-star topology, where an end-device is covered by several >Access Points. > >Both of these remarks are based on a simple principle - don't try to >address every problem. Find a subset that is tangible and where there >are specific demands, shared by the broader community. > >I'll be happy to work with you towards a "generic topology" solution >once we have the major questions addressed. And if we mix this with >mostly asymmetric traffic patterns, then you have my full curiosity as a >researcher. Until then, from business perspective, I don't see the case >for it. > >Best, >Alexander > > > >Le 2016-04-25 18:52, Jonathan Mu=F1oz a =E9crit : >> Ok I understand but how do we provide connectivity to a node which is >> out of range from the gateway? >>=20 >> That aspect of the topology could be loosen to provide wider range and >> yet keeping it simple. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Jonathan >>=20 >> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> : >>=20 >>> Hello Jonathan >>>=20 >>> We can debate that one but I think not. >>> What makes these technologies so simple to deploy is that they trade >>> range for bandwidth with a single hop... >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> Pascal >>>=20 >>> Le 25 avr. 2016 =E0 18:29, Jonathan Mu=F1oz >>> a =E9crit : >>>=20 >>> Hello Pascal, >>>=20 >>> Thank you for putting all this together. I propose to modify this >>> aspect: "Those common family traits include an optimized radio >>> modulation over either a star_ or mesh_ topology..." >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>>=20 >>> Jonathan Mu=F1oz >>>=20 >>> 2016-04-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> : >>>=20 >>> Dear all: >>>=20 >>> Thanks a huge bunch for this great activity. We=B9re progressing >>> incredibly fast. >>>=20 >>> Laurent, please see below >>>=20 >>> =D8 I also agree that upstream is a little bit restrictive, but we >>> have to insist on that because it has an impact on protocols and we >>> will cover that case. I propose something like: >>>=20 >>> =D8 Those common family traits include, over a basic star topology >>> and an optimized radio modulation, frame sizes in tens of bytes and >>> the order of a few transmissions per day. Some technologies are >>> using mostly upstream transmission pattern. >>>=20 >>> Agreed, that=B9s exactly the point I wanted to make. >>>=20 >>> The extraordinary longevity has a lot to do with the avoidance of >>> idle listening, which derives from a vast majority of unacknowledged >>> upstream transmissions. >>>=20 >>> Proposal is to follow Mischa=B9s advice and remove data collection, >>> and then mix his text with your proposal above as follows: >>>=20 >>> =B3 >>>=20 >>> Those common family traits include an optimized radio modulation >>> over a basic >>>=20 >>> star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted >>> a few times >>>=20 >>> per day, and, though downstream may be emerge as an equally massive >>> opportunity, >>>=20 >>> a mostly upstream transmission pattern which allows the device to >>> stay longer in >>>=20 >>> deep sleep mode. >>>=20 >>> =B3 >>>=20 >>> =D8 The other concern is the lasts word "operations". One goal of >>> the wg will be to simplify operation and management. If we say that >>> it is already low cost, the benefit of IETF will be not that high. I >>> will just write >>>=20 >>> =D8 This also simplifies the deployment at a huge scale, and enables >>> low costs for devices and infrastructure. >>>=20 >>> OK to avoid entering that discussion=8A. >>>=20 >>> Thanks again! >>>=20 >>> Pascal >>>=20 >>> Laurent >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Mischa Dohler >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Very good! Thanks, Pascal. >>>=20 >>> PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream >>> (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally >>> massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis >>> has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges >>> over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), >>> we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying >>>=20 >>> Mischa. >>>=20 >>> On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>>=20 >>> Trying; what about: >>>=20 >>> =B3 >>>=20 >>> A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the >>> generic name of >>>=20 >>> Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics >>> which make >>>=20 >>> these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data >>> collection >>>=20 >>> applications. >>>=20 >>> Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and >>> the order of >>>=20 >>> a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern >>> over a basic >>>=20 >>> star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. >>>=20 >>> This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery >>> lifetime, with 10 >>>=20 >>> years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the >>> deployment at >>>=20 >>> a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and >>> operations. >>>=20 >>> <=8A> >>>=20 >>> =B3 >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> Pascal >>>=20 >>> FROM: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] >>> SENT: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 >>> TO: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Carsten Bormann >>> ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >>> CC: Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; >>> Alexander Pelov >>> SUBJECT: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >>>=20 >>> Dear Pascal, >>>=20 >>> Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping >>> the term instead of using a substitute. >>>=20 >>> (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) >>>=20 >>> Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. >>>=20 >>> On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hello Mischa: >>>=20 >>> I=B9m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use >>> instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated >>> term at the IETF for IOT links. >>>=20 >>> I can see WSN, =B3low power radio=B2 =8A any suggestion? >>>=20 >>> Pascal >>>=20 >>> FROM: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk] >>> SENT: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 >>> TO: Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >>> >>> CC: Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; >>> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Alexander Pelov >>> >>> SUBJECT: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >>>=20 >>> +1 >>>=20 >>> ______________________________________ >>>=20 >>> Prof Mischa Dohler >>>=20 >>> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >>>=20 >>> Chair Professor, King's College London >>>=20 >>> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >>>=20 >>> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >>>=20 >>> Fellow, IEEE >>>=20 >>> www.mischadohler.com [1] >>>=20 >>> ______________________________________ >>>=20 >>> On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>=20 >>> While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is >>>=20 >>> neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are >>>=20 >>> actually trying to do. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan [2] >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Laurent Toutain >>=20 >> +--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=E9l=E9com Bretagne >> -----------+ >> | Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 [3] | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 [4] >> | Visit : >>=20 >> | Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 | | >>=20 >> | Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 [5] | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 [6] >> | http://class.touta.in [7] >> | Laurent@Touta.in | Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu | >> +--------------------------+----------------------------------------+ >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan [2] >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Jonathan Mu=F1oz >> PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris >> +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 [8] >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan [2] >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Jonathan Mu=F1oz >> PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris >> +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 >>=20 >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.mischadohler.com >> [2] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> [3] tel:%2B33%202%2022%2006%208156 >> [4] tel:%2B%2033%202%2099%2012%207026 >> [5] tel:%2B33%202%2022%2006%208445 >> [6] tel:%2B33%202%2099%2012%207030 >> [7] http://class.touta.in >> [8] tel:%2B33%20%280%29%206%2059%2005%2093%2083 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > >_______________________________________________ >lp-wan mailing list >lp-wan@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 25 12:10:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0126912D687 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:10:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FMzZea56TQaA for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 560D712D679 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:10:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f796f6d000000e1e-01-571e6b6bee95 Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A9.1D.03614.B6B6E175; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:09:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:10:14 -0400 From: Samita Chakrabarti To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , =?utf-8?B?Sm9uYXRoYW4gTXXDsW96?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAmvOwAAAPNWgAAAfSyAAABm9wAAAYHLgAAI4oOAAAE4xwAAHVPzgAAATyAAAACT0gAAANH1gAAAJiaAAADgtYAABKrHgAACOt0AAAA88oAAAJaAgAABJuUAAAZCfDA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:10:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> 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XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:55:09 -0500 From: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Randy Turner Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGeQmDwQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjgAeqxgAAAAz+BAAKD5ngA== Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:55:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.20.23] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D34430C72169B7sgundaveciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:55:15 -0000 --_000_D34430C72169B7sgundaveciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal, Couple of comments. > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlight= ing potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. I=92m wondering why the management/security related documents will be publi= shed only as informational specs. I think it may be bit premature to state = that. I think one of the key objectives of this effort should be about ena= bling LPWAN deployments. Compression and other optimization are great and c= an be the enabler for IPv6 adoption, but I think it makes sense to take a s= ystem architecture and address various protocol gaps. Those extensions may = indeed come out as standards specs, or BCP/Informational specs and we do no= t know at this point. > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 ove= r LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. YANG is a perfectly reasonable option. But, I=92d state this bit more gener= ically. =93the work will focus on defining interfaces (Ex: YANG/CAPWAP, ..e= tc) for installing the needed states for realizing compression or other cap= abilities at the endpoints=94 Sri From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > Date: Monday, April 25, 2016 at 12:04 AM To: Randy Turner > Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Sure Randy: I=92m getting numbers like 100 bytes per day, 10 km range, 10 years on a co= in cell as typical expectations. I think that the mostly upstream is also a= key differentiator, a show stopper for balanced protocols. I=92m getting the same feedback from Paul and Diego. We need to differentia= te from the domain were 6lo applies. Note that all the text in the first section is really to justify that work = is needed at the IETF. It is a helper for the BoF but may not make it to th= e final charter. The text that sets the boundaries of the LPWAN WG should b= e in the second section. Let me chew this and come back with a proposal. Cheers, Pascal From: Randy Turner [mailto:rturner@amalfisystems.com] Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 03:38 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Hi Pascal, Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed charter Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. It seems like it would be of some value to future participants in this work= if this particular paragraph provided examples of =93small frame sizes=94 or =93radio modulations=94 so = that some idea of the challenges of the working group could be understood. I say this because this same par= agraph could be used to talk about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (small frame sizes, specif= ic modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy issues) but that exhibit none of the characteristics that I think LPWANs will be faced with. My $0.02 :) Randy 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under t= he generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA techno= logies that is already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics= can be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireles= s Internet of Things (IOT) applications. Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and ver= y specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deploym= ents, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access techn= ology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystem= s, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee th= e interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manageme= nt and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribu= te by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secur= e the operations and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-= Area technologies , and , and will leverage cross-particip= ation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking plac= e corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA netwo= rks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize= IPv6 operations to the device. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over = LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --_000_D34430C72169B7sgundaveciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <52111AE77DFC2549A4BB99EF3485DA14@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal,

Couple of comments.

> 2. Produce best practice documents for security and man= agement, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; th= ese documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.


I=92m wondering why the management/security related documents will be = published only as informational specs. I think it may be bit premature to s= tate that.  I think one of the key objectives of this effort should be= about enabling LPWAN deployments. Compression and other optimization are great and can be the enabler for IPv6 adoption,= but I think it makes sense to take a system architecture and address vario= us protocol gaps. Those extensions may indeed come out as standards specs, = or BCP/Informational specs and we do not know at this point. 

> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compr= ession of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on = a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to install th= e related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also include, f= or the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe = how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if a= ny.


YANG is a perfectly reasonable option. But, I=92d state this bit more = generically. =93the work will focus on defining interfaces (Ex: YANG/CAPWAP= , ..etc) for installing the needed states for realizing compression or othe= r capabilities at the endpoints=94


Sri





From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "= ;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <= pthubert@cisco.com>
Date: Monday, April 25, 2016 at 12:= 04 AM
To: Randy Turner <rturner@amalfisystems.com>
Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" <= lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed char= ter v3

Sure Randy:

 

I=92m getting numbers like 100 bytes = per day, 10 km range, 10 years on a coin cell as typical expectations. I th= ink that the mostly upstream is also a key differentiator, a show stopper for balanced protocols.

 

I=92m getting the same feedback from = Paul and Diego. We need to differentiate from the domain were 6lo applies.<= o:p>

 

Note that all the text in the first s= ection is really to justify that work is needed at the IETF. It is a helper= for the BoF but may not make it to the final charter. The text that sets the boundaries of the LPWAN WG should be in th= e second section. Let me chew this and come back with  a proposal.

 

Cheers,

 

Pascal

 

From: Randy Turner [mailto:rturner@amalfisystems.com]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 03:38
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

 

Hi Pascal,

 

Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed charter<= o:p>

 

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-ra= te and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and= basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and bat= tery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.

 

It seems like it would be of some value to future pa= rticipants in this work if this particular paragraph

provided examples of =93small frame sizes=94 or =93r= adio modulations=94 so that some idea of the challenges

of the working group could be understood.  I sa= y this because this same paragraph could be used to talk

about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (sm= all frame sizes, specific modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy issues)&= nbsp;

but that exhibit none of the characteristics that I = think

LPWANs will be faced with.

 

My $0.02 :)

 

Randy

 

 

 

 

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks= ".

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (L= LNs) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From th= e variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market, a number o= f common characteristics can

be gathered which make these technologies unique an= d disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications. 

 

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-ra= te and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and= basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and bat= tery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.=

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer forma= ts are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology. There is no= network layer and the

application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading= to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individually. Migrati= ng from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.=

 

To unleash the full power of these new technologies= and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystem= s that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common= components for management

and security, as well as shared application profile= s. The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propo= se technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and their gateway= s.

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over = selected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <T= ech3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure t= hat the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the proposed soluti= ons are applicable.

 

The group will produce informational work describin= g LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF = technology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new st= andards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

 

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups= in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and Security Areas.=

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document describing and= relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the comm= on characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and= management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be leve= raged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.=

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the c= ompression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will = focus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to i= nstall the related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also i= nclude, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to = describe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the = air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation o= f larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techn= ology, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.

_______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

 

 --_000_D34430C72169B7sgundaveciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 21:11:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4463312D0BF for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:11:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dfzd3AILw8Uu for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7E5512B067 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=16008; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461643879; x=1462853479; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=RtQuHbhYat14gDLg1tZ/Bbe/8yxKW4JkAj/jEp/+OzI=; b=gRXuZcMmKSKG3p+Xgw22Gr87MAx12GVfSJLoMbIpTxQIb6crimRn8yGM BX+iXWnKPwwQp/wAJSajt9Fz8Ywr6zhE0Uu/JFhSe9Zz8grr5wOsI8KJ+ qRafJcT7ygmPij8XtcZHZfBDWsMsP5L10LCozTJF1/5xkJPYJvp2YP7ZO g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AIAgA76R5X/4UNJK1egmxMU30GtQKEc?= =?us-ascii?q?wENgXSGDoE7OBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBLUQNDQEIEQMBAig5FAkKBAESFAe?= =?us-ascii?q?IBwjDKgEBAQEGAQEBAQEBGoYhg0mBAoQJGikThTYFh3SFYDiFE4RxAYguhWiPE?= =?us-ascii?q?Y8vAR4BAUKDa2yIAX8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,535,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="265393384" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Apr 2016 04:11:18 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3Q4BIVF000700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:11:18 GMT Received: from xch-aln-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:11:17 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com ([173.36.7.17]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:11:17 -0500 From: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AQHRn3GuQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjg== Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:11:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.20.23] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D34435762169E2sgundaveciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:11:22 -0000 --_000_D34435762169E2sgundaveciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal / All, > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPW= A technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific acces= s technology, but it is important to characterize a given access technology= . In that sense, there should be room for publishing measurement data on sy= stem/radio performance as informational specs. At some points coexistence o= f various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed bands will be the major issue an= d the problem will only get worse as the noise in the channels goes up with= the technology adoption. This measurement data/reports from IETF communit= y will be useful to drive/recommend approaches to SDO's such LBT, or other = modes of peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1. Comments ? Sri From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under t= he generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA techno= logies that is already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics= can be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireles= s Internet of Things (IOT) applications. Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and ver= y specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deploym= ents, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access techn= ology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystem= s, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee th= e interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manageme= nt and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribu= te by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secur= e the operations and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-= Area technologies , and , and will leverage cross-particip= ation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking plac= e corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA netwo= rks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize= IPv6 operations to the device. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over = LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. --_000_D34435762169E2sgundaveciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <5B0D69F8F241344A87100DC87417C45C@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal / All,


> 1. Produce an Informational= document describing and relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the commo= n characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.


I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific = access technology, but it is important to characterize a given access techn= ology. In that sense, there should be room for publishing measurement data = on system/radio performance as informational specs. At some points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in unlicen= sed bands will be the major issue and the problem will only get worse as th= e noise in the channels goes up with the technology adoption.  This me= asurement data/reports from IETF community will be useful to drive/recommend approaches to SDO’s such LBT, or o= ther modes of peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. 

My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1.
 
Comments ?


Sri







From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "= ;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <= pthubert@cisco.com>
Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:0= 3 AM
To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" <= lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter = v3

 

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks&= quot;.

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LL= Ns) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the= variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market, a number of= common characteristics can

be gathered which make these technologies unique and= disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.

 

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rat= e and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and = basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and batt= ery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.<= /o:p>

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology. There is no = network layer and the

application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading = to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individually. Migratin= g from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.<= /o:p>

 

To unleash the full power of these new technologies = and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems= that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common = components for management

and security, as well as shared application profiles= . The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propos= e technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and their gateways= .

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over s= elected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Te= ch3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure th= at the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutio= ns are applicable.

 

The group will produce informational work describing= LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF t= echnology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new sta= ndards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

 

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and Security Areas.<= /o:p>

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the commo= n characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.<= /o:p>

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will f= ocus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to in= stall the related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also in= clude, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to d= escribe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the a= ir, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.

 --_000_D34435762169E2sgundaveciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 23:10:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545FB12D097 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcPnHVxl1uJV for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (relay6-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13CEE12B042 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter23-d.gandi.net (mfilter23-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.151]) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C800EFB8CB; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:10:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter23-d.gandi.net Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.198]) by mfilter23-d.gandi.net (mfilter23-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hyIA70brqGL2; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:10:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 10.58.1.150 Received: from webmail.gandi.net (webmail10-d.mgt.gandi.net [10.58.1.150]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6C641FB8A4; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:10:26 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:10:26 +0200 From: Alexander Pelov To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c6577e71957a9f5d31d6f86c7e23905@ackl.io> X-Sender: a@ackl.io User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] call for techX X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:10:33 -0000 Dear all, Ideally, what we'd like to have with Pascal is - confirmed participation by SDO organizations and technology providers by the end of May. This means that we will have at least one representative per technology actively contributing to the mailing list starting from June. We will have at least one presentation per technology during the BoF in Berlin, as well as synchronization with SDO meetings, possibly cross-participation, .... - by one of more representatives for each technology. With Pascal, we are well aware that this type of decisions is not light to take, and expressing an official commitment on the mailing list requires lots of preparation and internal agreement between all companies within a given LPWA technology. This takes time. This is not what this call is about. It is a call for "which technologies ARE looking at the future group" + "which technologies SHOULD be looking at the future group". If you are a company, using an LPWA technology or developing one, then please, step forward and say so. We have a short list already and it would be a pity to miss this opportunity to open the discussion while we're still in the early stages of the work. Working towards official commitment is one thing, but we also need to understand the technology before we can accept it as one of the main techX. And the end of May is very soon ;) Best, Alexander Le 2016-04-25 19:49, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) a écrit : > Dear all: > > Thanks to the intense activity over the last few days, I have just > posted a v4 of the LP-WAN draft charter, incorporating many comments > on the way; I expect we're getting quite stable by now, though > obviously comments are still welcome. > > As you know, a charter is a contract between a WG and the IESG; but > before we get there, this draft is also and mostly a proposal of work > for the future group and an invitation to the LPWA stakeholders, as > represented by cross-participating members in this ML. > > Based on this proposal of work - and understanding that it is still > time to amend it - I'd like to invite folks to suggest LPWA > technologies that could become the techX in the charter. Ideally, this > should come from officials representing the stakeholders, but > suggestions / hints are welcome. > > Fire at will! > > Pascal > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Mon Apr 25 23:31:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CB612D09A for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1KsX6Iib2uD for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6C051200A0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter20-d.gandi.net (mfilter20-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.148]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8ABBA80D1; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:31:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter20-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.195]) by mfilter20-d.gandi.net (mfilter20-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gqjqQH8DsUbu; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:31:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 10.58.1.150 Received: from webmail.gandi.net (webmail10-d.mgt.gandi.net [10.58.1.150]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C7703A80E3; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:31:39 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:31:39 +0200 From: Alexander Pelov To: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18373d9ab68448174fbe70b7c595faf9@ackl.io> X-Sender: a@ackl.io User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:31:47 -0000 Dear Sri, Thanks a lot for your input! I am fully aligned with you when you say that coexistence of various LPWA technologies is something that if not handled properly, could lead to troubles in the future. This is especially true if we consider the densities of devices predicted today (e.g. 100 000 devices per Access Point). We will definitely need some base characteristics for the chosen three main technologies. I'd like to see Plugfests happening quite rapidly - which will be one way of seeing how different technologies work together. And I definitely would be interested in having open discussions on what we've seen on the field. One question I am asking myself is if the IETF is the right place to publish documents, which present this type of data? This would be a perfect topic for IEEE conferences and workshops. I think that for the moment we should keep this out of the Charter, keeping a special place for this type of information in our meetings. Best, Alexander Le 2016-04-26 06:11, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) a écrit : > Pascal / All, > >> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating > existing LPWA > > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics > but will > > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific > access technology, but it is important to characterize a given access > technology. In that sense, there should be room for publishing > measurement data on system/radio performance as informational specs. > At some points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed > bands will be the major issue and the problem will only get worse as > the noise in the channels goes up with the technology adoption. This > measurement data/reports from IETF community will be useful to > drive/recommend approaches to SDO's such LBT, or other modes of > peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. > > My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1. > > Comments ? > > Sri > > From: lp-wan on behalf of "Pascal Thubert > (pthubert)" > Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM > To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged > under the > > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA > technologies > > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common > characteristics can > > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for > wireless > > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. > This > > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized > and very > > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and > the > > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, > > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access > technology > > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, > > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will > guarantee the > > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for > management > > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can > contribute > > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to > secure the > > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area > > technologies , and , and will leverage > cross-participation > > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking > place > > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies > for IETF > > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA > networks > > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to > optimize IPv6 > > operations to the device. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF > Internet, > > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing > LPWA > > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics > but will > > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these > documents may > > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 > over LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic > YANG data > > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related > state > > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the > selected > > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the > fields > > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets > over LPWA, > > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Tue Apr 26 00:27:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203E912B044 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FNzkT4dmn3lX for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22e.google.com (mail-lf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B7FE1200A0 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j11so7214411lfb.1 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:27:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2C1GSVtLOjpDrAFNcwrevGfBUONr5emY1R+KXILh/NU=; b=n6rpyNLBwdSFDfTKVv0MgwKezztNGsQRuLE4piA5BpowncM8vA1VN65TdUUN7CQA8z 6TA9m1puYnGVyoXh0cOie1iA5Z5OP/Wr/vYwviJwewqhCKNpewyjLA411jA50x/7kw0y EogfcrB7i52odahv4DYxV0u094ZKjA2NguZik/E60Y0AyaIiN81BUjARLlr8EjLlw+MV hufVsYAjnxYAghM3GugWGz+seKu3bqkQzPqg6fYYtaZWMNJljQhShnU15xQWQ393TPCs 33mk+yoff5kvCDDH5E2r2KB5JKXzVZa7rSVPAZN0psTdjfz9HFQqtGW2EW5zZWkZ9wpH yfbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2C1GSVtLOjpDrAFNcwrevGfBUONr5emY1R+KXILh/NU=; b=I5xLZXDm7+/UzjjrL2yaXRU0DC5uhDlKY6PnQso2vFI9UWqkCVGpI/a2FymPlJt3RB 0yaGuc+ymhoIC8kZc5olFN/MHiWvjm0180RK95wPlVCH99iYLE0XtZ+170BzQ1R3bqN7 yYXiHipHCTmJvFsk6mDNcoJqg0DC3y0mMsLwfUl4/hRFUYLz2SqU+OCmUgvg7nFLt3mq MA3msd/jQiJwgk1RJaPtRitPFgJButTLq1YPp0xRSloS22VI44MIDEyLVGx0s+HlXV1Q TBxvazeWu+lVxC/n1NB59gSea7ERrSu+6kdMuH6zAMrCdBUGwhaatX48JUdToY7AcN8H MIUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVqZVeRyMkD4wuV374ObK0prMzDmOCpbG1Q+zoT6rm7yKqy3YXld56gZe04Az1jRoGT X-Received: by 10.112.209.73 with SMTP id mk9mr585080lbc.121.1461655634497; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.2.60] (162.38.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com. [62.92.38.162]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id tg1sm5010895lbb.7.2016.04.26.00.27.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Juan Carlos Zuniga X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13E238) In-Reply-To: <18373d9ab68448174fbe70b7c595faf9@ackl.io> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 09:27:12 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <18373d9ab68448174fbe70b7c595faf9@ackl.io> To: Alexander Pelov Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , "Sri Gundavelli \(sgundave\)" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 07:27:19 -0000 I agree with Alexander. Even though this is very relevant to the group, and i= nformation will be useful, I don't think IETF is the right place to discuss o= r decide anything about radio coexistence and spectrum issues.=20 I would welcome informational presentations on this topic, but I would rathe= r not have it in the Charter of the group. Juan Carlos > On Apr 26, 2016, at 08:31, Alexander Pelov wrote: >=20 > Dear Sri, >=20 > Thanks a lot for your input! I am fully aligned with you when you say that= coexistence of various LPWA technologies is something that if not handled p= roperly, could lead to troubles in the future. This is especially true if we= consider the densities of devices predicted today (e.g. 100 000 devices per= Access Point). >=20 > We will definitely need some base characteristics for the chosen three mai= n technologies. I'd like to see Plugfests happening quite rapidly - which wi= ll be one way of seeing how different technologies work together. And I defi= nitely would be interested in having open discussions on what we've seen on t= he field. >=20 > One question I am asking myself is if the IETF is the right place to publi= sh documents, which present this type of data? This would be a perfect topic= for IEEE conferences and workshops. I think that for the moment we should k= eep this out of the Charter, keeping a special place for this type of inform= ation in our meetings. >=20 > Best, > Alexander >=20 >=20 > Le 2016-04-26 06:11, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) a =C3=A9crit : >> Pascal / All, >>> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating >> existing LPWA >> technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics >> but will >> not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific >> access technology, but it is important to characterize a given access >> technology. In that sense, there should be room for publishing >> measurement data on system/radio performance as informational specs. >> At some points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed >> bands will be the major issue and the problem will only get worse as >> the noise in the channels goes up with the technology adoption. This >> measurement data/reports from IETF community will be useful to >> drive/recommend approaches to SDO's such LBT, or other modes of >> peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. >> My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1. >> Comments ? >> Sri >> From: lp-wan on behalf of "Pascal Thubert >> (pthubert)" >> Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM >> To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" >> Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 >> 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >> Background/Introduction: >> ------------------------ >> A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged >> under the >> generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). =46rom the variety of LPWA >> technologies >> that is already proposed in this market, a number of common >> characteristics can >> be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for >> wireless >> Internet of Things (IOT) applications. >> Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame >> sizes, >> rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. >> This >> provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, >> simplifies and >> lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. >> Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized >> and very >> specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and >> the >> application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed >> deployments, >> managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access >> technology >> to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. >> To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new >> ecosystems, >> there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will >> guarantee the >> interworking at the network layer and enable common components for >> management >> and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can >> contribute >> by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to >> secure the >> operations and manage the devices and their gateways. >> Description of Working Group: >> ----------------------------- >> The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power >> Wide-Area >> technologies , and , and will leverage >> cross-participation >> with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking >> place >> corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. >> The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies >> for IETF >> consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA >> networks >> directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to >> optimize IPv6 >> operations to the device. >> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF >> Internet, >> Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >> Work Items: >> ----------- >> The group will: >> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing >> LPWA >> technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics >> but will >> not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, >> highlighting >> potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these >> documents may >> eventually be published as Informational RFCs. >> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 >> over LPWA. >> Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic >> YANG data >> model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related >> state >> at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the >> selected >> technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the >> fields >> relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. >> 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets >> over LPWA, >> either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new >> Standard >> Track document if that is deemed necessary. >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan From nobody Tue Apr 26 01:02:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C21512D0BD for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5agEvTC8M9Of for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF17B12D0B2 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:01:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=44534; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461657718; x=1462867318; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=k0divJeY2gHys4s/rjDhzUVe61NVm4zEorrCjxha/0c=; b=cxHXiscBtiLnAT2dZQdLOYYTlI9C3dK+CZW0FlngJzkJTZajuO9UjHdY c05NUMR4JKgfr0020Dnnd7ZlrJ51MU2XUbXusf/OoTxkVx029CneB1djv N5Vw/+AV0hfM0zgYrnvc6TZt4CxHBL868HCFdfFipT0r6NvJHjGaeq0eE E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQBbHx9X/4UNJK1egmxMU30GuXUBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFwBBcBCoVsAoE5OBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBAQEBKjgJAwgFCwIBCBEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BASEBBgcnCxQDBggBAQQBDQUIE4gHCA7DSgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?REEhiGDSYEChAkaKRMNCYUgBYd0hWCFS4RxAY4PjxiPLwEeAQFCggIegUtsiAF?= =?us-ascii?q?/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,536,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="101493336" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Apr 2016 08:01:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (xch-aln-009.cisco.com [173.36.7.19]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3Q81usZ022692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:01:56 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:01:55 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:01:55 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" , Randy Turner Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AdGeQmDwQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjgAeqxgAAAAz+BAAKD5ngAAMealA Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:01:29 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:01:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_daaa04193cbc4608b2883f9045e2cc1fXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:02:06 -0000 --_000_daaa04193cbc4608b2883f9045e2cc1fXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Sri > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlight= ing potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. I'm wondering why the management/security related documents will be publish= ed only as informational specs. I think it may be bit premature to state th= at. I think one of the key objectives of this effort should be about enabl= ing LPWAN deployments. Compression and other optimization are great and can= be the enabler for IPv6 adoption, but I think it makes sense to take a sys= tem architecture and address various protocol gaps. Those extensions may in= deed come out as standards specs, or BCP/Informational specs and we do not = know at this point. Agreed, we have to continue the gap analysis effort. That's critic= al for the BoF. For the extensions, we'll have to define on a case by case = where they happen, but if there is an existing WG that can be identified fo= r a particular piece, then we'll propose the work there. In that case, the = LPWAN Wg would produce the 'architecture' BCP that position things and ties= them together, while the protocol elements would be done in the proper WG/= Area. > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 ove= r LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. YANG is a perfectly reasonable option. But, I'd state this bit more generic= ally. "the work will focus on defining interfaces (Ex: YANG/CAPWAP, ..etc) = for installing the needed states for realizing compression or other capabil= ities at the endpoints" YANG is the IETF way to describe configuration data models and int= eraction model. I may be wrongs but it seems to me that CAPWAP could be use= d to implement that abstraction. And so could CoAP/CBOR. I think your point= is already included in "and protocols to install the related state at the = compression end-points;". Take care, Pascal From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > Date: Monday, April 25, 2016 at 12:04 AM To: Randy Turner > Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Sure Randy: I'm getting numbers like 100 bytes per day, 10 km range, 10 years on a coin= cell as typical expectations. I think that the mostly upstream is also a k= ey differentiator, a show stopper for balanced protocols. I'm getting the same feedback from Paul and Diego. We need to differentiate= from the domain were 6lo applies. Note that all the text in the first section is really to justify that work = is needed at the IETF. It is a helper for the BoF but may not make it to th= e final charter. The text that sets the boundaries of the LPWAN WG should b= e in the second section. Let me chew this and come back with a proposal. Cheers, Pascal From: Randy Turner [mailto:rturner@amalfisystems.com] Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 03:38 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Hi Pascal, Regarding the 2nd paragraph of the proposed charter Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. It seems like it would be of some value to future participants in this work= if this particular paragraph provided examples of "small frame sizes" or "radio modulations" so that som= e idea of the challenges of the working group could be understood. I say this because this same par= agraph could be used to talk about 802.15.4 networks that we currently deploy (small frame sizes, specif= ic modulations, low bitrate, battery/energy issues) but that exhibit none of the characteristics that I think LPWANs will be faced with. My $0.02 :) Randy 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under t= he generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA techno= logies that is already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics= can be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireles= s Internet of Things (IOT) applications. Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and ver= y specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deploym= ents, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access techn= ology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystem= s, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee th= e interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manageme= nt and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribu= te by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secur= e the operations and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-= Area technologies , and , and will leverage cross-particip= ation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking plac= e corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA netwo= rks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize= IPv6 operations to the device. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over = LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --_000_daaa04193cbc4608b2883f9045e2cc1fXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Sri

> 2. Produce best practice documents for security = and management, highlighting<= /span>

potential areas where IETF technologies may be levera= ged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.=

I’m wondering why the management/= security related documents will be published only as informational specs. I= think it may be bit premature to state that.  I think one of the key objectives of this effort should be about enabling LPWAN de= ployments. Compression and other optimization are great and can be the enab= ler for IPv6 adoption, but I think it makes sense to take a system architec= ture and address various protocol gaps. Those extensions may indeed come out as standards specs, or BCP/Info= rmational specs and we do not know at this point. 

 

 

<Pascal> Agreed, we have to con= tinue the gap analysis effort. That’s critical for the BoF. For the e= xtensions, we’ll have to define on a case by case where they happen, but if there is an existing WG that can be identified for a partic= ular piece, then we’ll propose the work there. In that case, the LPWA= N Wg would produce the ‘architecture’ BCP that position things = and ties them together, while the protocol elements would be done in the proper WG/Area.

> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable th= e compression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will fo= cus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to ins= tall the related state=

at the compression end-points; the work will also inc= lude, for the selected=

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to de= scribe how the fields<= /p>

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the ai= r, if any.

 

YANG is a perfectly reasonable option. = But, I’d state this bit more generically. “the work will focus = on defining interfaces (Ex: YANG/CAPWAP, ..etc) for installing the needed states for realizing compression or other capabilities at the e= ndpoints”

 

 

<Pascal> YANG is = the IETF way to describe configuration data models and interaction model. I= may be wrongs but it seems to me that CAPWAP could be used to implement that abstraction. And so could CoAP/CBOR. I think your p= oint is already included in “and protocols to install the related sta= te at the compression end-points;”.

 

Take care,

 

Pascal

 

 

 

 

From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthub= ert)" <pthubert@cisco.com= >
Date: Monday, April 25, 2016 at 12:04 AM
To: Randy Turner <rt= urner@amalfisystems.com>
Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org&quo= t; <lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

 

Sure Randy:

 

I’m getting numbers like 100 by= tes per day, 10 km range, 10 years on a coin cell as typical expectations. = I think that the mostly upstream is also a key differentiator, a show stopper for balanced protocols.<= o:p>

 

I’m getting the same feedback f= rom Paul and Diego. We need to differentiate from the domain were 6lo appli= es.

 

Note that all the text in the first s= ection is really to justify that work is needed at the IETF. It is a helper= for the BoF but may not make it to the final charter. The text that sets the boundaries of the LPWAN WG should be in th= e second section. Let me chew this and come back with  a proposal.

 

Cheers,

 

Pascal

 

From: Randy = Turner [mailto:rturner@amalfis= ystems.com]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 03:38
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

 =

Hi Pascal,

 =

Regarding the 2nd paragr= aph of the proposed charter

 =

Those common family traits include ultr= a low bit-rate and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modu= lations, and basic topologies. This=

provides a significant improvement in r= ange and battery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large= scale.

 =

It seems like it would b= e of some value to future participants in this work if this particular para= graph

provided examples of = 220;small frame sizes” or “radio modulations” so that som= e idea of the challenges

of the working group cou= ld be understood.  I say this because this same paragraph could be use= d to talk

about 802.15.4 networks = that we currently deploy (small frame sizes, specific modulations, low bitr= ate, battery/energy issues) 

but that exhibit none of= the characteristics that I think

LPWANs will be faced wit= h.

 =

My $0.02 :)

 =

Randy<= /p>

 =

 =

 =

 

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-A= rea networks".

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy= Networks (LLNs) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LP= WA). From the variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market= , a number of common characteristics can=

be gathered which make these technologi= es unique and disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.<= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> 

 

Those common family traits include ultr= a low bit-rate and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modu= lations, and basic topologies. This=

provides a significant improvement in r= ange and battery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large= scale.

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC= -layer formats are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology.= There is no network layer and the<= /o:p>

application is often hard wired to the = MAC, leading to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individua= lly. Migrating from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole= chain.

 

To unleash the full power of these new = technologies and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with oth= er ecosystems that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and e= nable common components for management

and security, as well as shared applica= tion profiles. The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the device= s, and propose technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and t= heir gateways.

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enablin= g IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-Area=

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2&g= t; and <Tech3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders= to ensure that the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the pro= posed solutions are applicable.

 

The group will produce informational wo= rk describing LPWA technologies for IETF=

consumption, best practice documents on= using IETF technology in LPWA networks<= o:p>

directed to the selected partner bodies= , and new standards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

 

The WG will interface with other approp= riate groups in the IETF Internet,<= /o:p>

Operations and Management, and Security= Areas.

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document de= scribing and relating existing LPWA=

technologies. This document will highli= ght the common characteristics but will<= o:p>

not aim at providing a competitive anal= ysis.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for = security and management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies= may be leveraged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informationa= l RFCs.

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to = enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, th= e work will focus on a generic YANG data=

model to enable the compression, and pr= otocols to install the related state

at the compression end-points; the work= will also include, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track d= ocuments to describe how the fields=

relevant to the decompression are encod= ed over the air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fra= gmentation of larger packets over LPWA,<= o:p>

either as a Best Practice leveraging ex= isting technology, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necess= ary.

______________________________________= _________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-w= an

 =

--_000_daaa04193cbc4608b2883f9045e2cc1fXCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 01:04:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DA812D0CC for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:04:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MM08Eo1TPiKL for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62FF912D0C5 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:03:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=22154; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461657838; x=1462867438; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=chflYwDWqQoLKtrOlqTOSWImpUK44fDEn5PHM/5qx2Y=; b=UhJHM322mW/F4YerUDVjzoOSXNOaeQ/mym+4OeHI/WByCmOC3OFOxIT/ jzPwNusq7l/bUKBbafeVr3HQUsbUVdDADkgjzhbVgpoYVOFGvCT6y+HGE D7oVqIiIRnmRBrEtbzEuqIoy+8MMDqt4P4DNTxIlwcenzmZCo5iOeQLlM o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D5AQBEIB9X/5FdJa1egmxMU30GuXUBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YF0hg4CgTk4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RBAQEBAwEtRA0LAgEIEQMBAQEhBwcyFAkIAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BEggMB4gHCMNJAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFYYhg0mBAoQJGikTFoUgB?= =?us-ascii?q?Yd0hWCKPAGILoVhjxiPLwEeAQFCg2tsiAF/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,536,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="95640265" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Apr 2016 08:03:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3Q83uNL013336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:03:56 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:03:55 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:03:55 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AQHRn3GuQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjp+b5KJA Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:03:29 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:02:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_fc99433c85d1487d904a6c290bfca213XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:04:01 -0000 --_000_fc99433c85d1487d904a6c290bfca213XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do others think? This is slippery grounds for IETF. I'd like to see papers coming from Acade= mia. Cheers, Pascal From: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) Sent: mardi 26 avril 2016 06:11 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Pascal / All, > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPW= A technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific acces= s technology, but it is important to characterize a given access technology= . In that sense, there should be room for publishing measurement data on sy= stem/radio performance as informational specs. At some points coexistence o= f various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed bands will be the major issue an= d the problem will only get worse as the noise in the channels goes up with= the technology adoption. This measurement data/reports from IETF communit= y will be useful to drive/recommend approaches to SDO's such LBT, or other = modes of peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1. Comments ? Sri From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under t= he generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA techno= logies that is already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics= can be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireles= s Internet of Things (IOT) applications. Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes= , rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifie= s and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and ver= y specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deploym= ents, managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access techn= ology to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystem= s, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee th= e interworking at the network layer and enable common components for manageme= nt and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribu= te by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secur= e the operations and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-= Area technologies , and , and will leverage cross-particip= ation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking plac= e corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for = IETF consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA netwo= rks directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize= IPv6 operations to the device. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but w= ill not aim at providing a competitive analysis. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over = LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG = data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. --_000_fc99433c85d1487d904a6c290bfca213XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What do others think? =

 

This is slippery groun= ds for IETF. I’d like to see papers coming from Academia.<= /span>

 

Cheers,

 

Pascal

 

From: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
Sent: mardi 26 avril 2016 06:11
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; lp-wan@iet= f.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

 

Pascal = / All,

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

>&nb= sp;1. Produce an Informational document = describing and relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highl= ight the common characteristics but will<= /span>

not aim at providing a competitive ana= lysis.

&n= bsp;

I reali= ze IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific access techn= ology, but it is important to characterize a given access technology. In th= at sense, there should be room for publishing measurement data on system/radio performance as informational specs. At so= me points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed bands wil= l be the major issue and the problem will only get worse as the noise in th= e channels goes up with the technology adoption.  This measurement data/reports from IETF community will be = useful to drive/recommend approaches to SDO’s such LBT, or other mode= s of peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. 

&n= bsp;

My sugg= estion is to allow such work under work item#1.

 <= o:p>

Comment= s ?

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

Sri

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthub= ert)" <pthubert@cisco.com= >
Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM
To: "lp-wan@ietf.org&quo= t; <lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

&n= bsp;

 =

6LPWA: "IPv6 over L= ow-Power Wide-Area networks".

 =

Background/Introduction:=

------------------------=

 =

A new generation of Low-= power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Powe= r Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed= in this market, a number of common characteristics can

be gathered which make t= hese technologies unique and disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT)= applications.

 =

Those common family trai= ts include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, spec= ific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This

provides a significant i= mprovement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deplo= yments at large scale.

 =

Those benefits come at a= price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and very

specific to each individ= ual technology. There is no network layer and the

application is often har= d wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deployments,<= /p>

managed, secured and ope= rated individually. Migrating from one access technology<= /p>

to another implies rebui= lding the whole chain.

 =

To unleash the full powe= r of these new technologies and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to coupl= e them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the

interworking at the netw= ork layer and enable common components for management

and security, as well as= shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COA= P to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the<= /p>

operations and manage th= e devices and their gateways.

 =

Description of Working G= roup:

------------------------= -----

 =

The Working Group will f= ocus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1&g= t;, <Tech2> and <Tech3>, and will leverage cross-participation<= o:p>

with the associated set = of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place

corresponds to real dema= nds and the proposed solutions are applicable.

 =

The group will produce i= nformational work describing LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practi= ce documents on using IETF technology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected= partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize IPv6<= /p>

operations to the device= .

 =

The WG will interface wi= th other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Managemen= t, and Security Areas.

 =

Work Items:

-----------

 =

The group will:

 =

1. Produce an Informatio= nal document describing and relating existing LPWA

technologies. This docum= ent will highlight the common characteristics but will

not aim at providing a c= ompetitive analysis.

 =

2. Produce best practice= documents for security and management, highlighting

potential areas where IE= TF technologies may be leveraged; these documents may

eventually be published = as Informational RFCs.

 =

3. Produce Standard Trac= k documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA.<= /p>

Considering the extreme = constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the comp= ression, and protocols to install the related state

at the compression end-p= oints; the work will also include, for the selected

technologies, specific S= tandard Track documents to describe how the fields

relevant to the decompre= ssion are encoded over the air, if any.

 =

4. Produce a document to= enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practic= e leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard

Track document if that i= s deemed necessary.

--_000_fc99433c85d1487d904a6c290bfca213XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 01:12:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9F912D0FB for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jVvwc_2RR1xv for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 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Thubert (pthubert)" To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 Thread-Index: AQHRn3GuQk7EFD0uRbGgAiYFzf1zjp+cH4KAgAAPhQD//7bgkA== Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:11:13 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:06:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <18373d9ab68448174fbe70b7c595faf9@ackl.io> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "Sri Gundavelli \(sgundave\)" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 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off-track but referencing it in our documentation seems a good idea! The topic itself is of course super-important ... and the main reason LPWAN won't make it beyond 2025 (no panic, Pascal, we have time for impact). Mischa. ______________________________________ Prof Mischa Dohler Head, Centre for Telecom Research Chair Professor, King's College London Board of Directors, Worldsensing Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT Fellow, IEEE www.mischadohler.com ______________________________________ On 26/04/2016 09:03, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > What do others think? > > This is slippery grounds for IETF. Id like to see papers coming from > Academia. > > Cheers, > > Pascal > > *From:* Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) > *Sent:* mardi 26 avril 2016 06:11 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; lp-wan@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 > > Pascal / All, > > >1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA > > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics > but will > > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific > access technology, but it is important to characterize a given access > technology. In that sense, there should be room for publishing > measurement data on system/radio performance as informational specs. > At some points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed > bands will be the major issue and the problem will only get worse as > the noise in the channels goes up with the technology adoption. This > measurement data/reports from IETF community will be useful to > drive/recommend approaches to SDOs such LBT, or other modes of > peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. > > My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1. > > Comments ? > > Sri > > *From: *lp-wan > on behalf of "Pascal Thubert > (pthubert)" > > *Date: *Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM > *To: *"lp-wan@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *[lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 > > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged > under the > > generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA > technologies > > that is already proposed in this market, a number of common > characteristics can > > be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for > wireless > > Internet of Things (IOT) applications. > > Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame > sizes, > > rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This > > provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, > simplifies and > > lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized > and very > > specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > > application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed > deployments, > > managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access > technology > > to another implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new > ecosystems, > > there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will > guarantee the > > interworking at the network layer and enable common components for > management > > and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can > contribute > > by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to > secure the > > operations and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power > Wide-Area > > technologies , and , and will leverage > cross-participation > > with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking > place > > corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable. > > The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies > for IETF > > consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA > networks > > directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to > optimize IPv6 > > operations to the device. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet, > > Operations and Management, and Security Areas. > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA > > technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics > but will > > not aim at providing a competitive analysis. > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these > documents may > > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 > over LPWA. > > Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic > YANG data > > model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related > state > > at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the > selected > > technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields > > relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets > over LPWA, > > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --------------7AC4AB7EAC68D33EA0EBC6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I personally think this is a little off-track but referencing it in our documentation seems a good idea! The topic itself is of course super-important ... and the main reason LPWAN won't make it beyond 2025 (no panic, Pascal, we have time for impact). Mischa. 

______________________________________

Prof Mischa Dohler
Head, Centre for Telecom Research
Chair Professor, King's College London
Board of Directors, Worldsensing
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT
Fellow, IEEE

www.mischadohler.com
______________________________________
On 26/04/2016 09:03, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

What do others think?

This is slippery grounds for IETF. Id like to see papers coming from Academia.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
Sent: mardi 26 avril 2016 06:11
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

Pascal / All,

>1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.

I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a specific access technology, but it is important to characterize a given access technology. In that sense, there should be room for publishing measurement data on system/radio performance as informational specs. At some points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in unlicensed bands will be the major issue and the problem will only get worse as the noise in the channels goes up with the technology adoption. This measurement data/reports from IETF community will be useful to drive/recommend approaches to SDOs such LBT, or other modes of peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies.

My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1.

Comments ?

Sri

From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM
To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" <lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged under the

generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the variety of LPWA technologies

that is already proposed in this market, a number of common characteristics can

be gathered which make these technologies unique and disruptive for wireless

Internet of Things (IOT) applications.

Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small frame sizes,

rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic topologies. This

provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, simplifies and

lowers the cost of deployments at large scale.

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and very

specific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the

application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to very silo'ed deployments,

managed, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one access technology

to another implies rebuilding the whole chain.

To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new ecosystems,

there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the

interworking at the network layer and enable common components for management

and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute

by enabling IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the

operations and manage the devices and their gateways.

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected Low-Power Wide-Area

technologies <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech3>, and will leverage cross-participation

with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place

corresponds to real demands and the proposed solutions are applicable.

The group will produce informational work describing LPWA technologies for IETF

consumption, best practice documents on using IETF technology in LPWA networks

directed to the selected partner bodies, and new standards work to optimize IPv6

operations to the device.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet,

Operations and Management, and Security Areas.

Work Items:

-----------

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA

technologies. This document will highlight the common characteristics but will

not aim at providing a competitive analysis.

2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs.

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of IPv6 over LPWA.

Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a generic YANG data

model to enable the compression, and protocols to install the related state

at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for the selected

technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the fields

relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any.

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.



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lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

--------------7AC4AB7EAC68D33EA0EBC6C0-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 01:21:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA1B12B054 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:21:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UV8995wLy4dq for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dash.upc.es (dash.upc.es [147.83.2.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71ED812D111 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 01:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entelserver.upc.edu (entelserver.upc.es [147.83.39.4]) by dash.upc.es (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id u3Q8KxQl007173; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:20:59 +0200 Received: from webmail.entel.upc.edu (webmail.entel.upc.edu [147.83.39.6]) by entelserver.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BF31D53C1; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:20:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 131.111.5.14 by webmail.entel.upc.edu with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:21:30 +0200 Message-ID: <71dc2d66e89389a2ab678130fc384b76.squirrel@webmail.entel.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <18373d9ab68448174fbe70b7c595faf9@ackl.io> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:21:30 +0200 From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.21-1.fc14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd X-Greylist: Delayed for 22:59:34 by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (dash.upc.es [147.83.2.50]); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:20:59 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "Sri Gundavelli \(sgundave\)" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:21:13 -0000 +1 Carles > Same here... > > if there's a mutual benefit for the LPWA technologies that IETF or IEEE > produces work to improve coexistence then we're certainly interested. > But we cannot serve as playground for marketing or competitive work. > > Cheers, > > Pascal > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Juan Carlos Zuniga [mailto:j.c.zuniga@ieee.org] >> Sent: mardi 26 avril 2016 09:27 >> To: Alexander Pelov >> Cc: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) ; lp-wan@ietf.org; >> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 >> >> I agree with Alexander. Even though this is very relevant to the group, >> and >> information will be useful, I don't think IETF is the right place to >> discuss or >> decide anything about radio coexistence and spectrum issues. >> >> I would welcome informational presentations on this topic, but I would >> rather not have it in the Charter of the group. >> >> Juan Carlos >> >> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 08:31, Alexander Pelov wrote: >> > >> > Dear Sri, >> > >> > Thanks a lot for your input! I am fully aligned with you when you say >> that >> coexistence of various LPWA technologies is something that if not >> handled >> properly, could lead to troubles in the future. This is especially true >> if we >> consider the densities of devices predicted today (e.g. 100 000 devices >> per >> Access Point). >> > >> > We will definitely need some base characteristics for the chosen >> three >> main technologies. I'd like to see Plugfests happening quite rapidly - >> which >> will be one way of seeing how different technologies work together. And >> I >> definitely would be interested in having open discussions on what we've >> seen on the field. >> > >> > One question I am asking myself is if the IETF is the right place to >> publish >> documents, which present this type of data? This would be a perfect >> topic >> for IEEE conferences and workshops. I think that for the moment we >> should >> keep this out of the Charter, keeping a special place for this type of >> information in our meetings. >> > >> > Best, >> > Alexander >> > >> > >> > Le 2016-04-26 06:11, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) a écrit : >> >> Pascal / All, >> >>> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating >> >> existing LPWA >> >> technologies. This document will highlight the common >> characteristics >> >> but will not aim at providing a competitive analysis. >> >> I realize IETF is in no position to compare and/or promote a >> specific >> >> access technology, but it is important to characterize a given >> access >> >> technology. In that sense, there should be room for publishing >> >> measurement data on system/radio performance as informational specs. >> >> At some points coexistence of various LPWAN technologies in >> >> unlicensed bands will be the major issue and the problem will only >> >> get worse as the noise in the channels goes up with the technology >> >> adoption. This measurement data/reports from IETF community will be >> >> useful to drive/recommend approaches to SDO's such LBT, or other >> >> modes of peaceful coexistence of various LPWAN technologies. >> >> My suggestion is to allow such work under work item#1. >> >> Comments ? >> >> Sri >> >> From: lp-wan on behalf of "Pascal Thubert >> >> (pthubert)" >> >> Date: Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM >> >> To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" >> >> Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v3 >> >> 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". >> >> Background/Introduction: >> >> ------------------------ >> >> A new generation of Low-power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) has emerged >> >> under the generic name of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA). From the >> >> variety of LPWA technologies that is already proposed in this >> market, >> >> a number of common characteristics can be gathered which make these >> >> technologies unique and disruptive for wireless Internet of Things >> >> (IOT) applications. >> >> Those common family traits include ultra low bit-rate and small >> frame >> >> sizes, rare transmissions, specific radio modulations, and basic >> >> topologies. >> >> This >> >> provides a significant improvement in range and battery lifetime, >> >> simplifies and lowers the cost of deployments at large scale. >> >> Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized >> >> and very specific to each individual technology. There is no network >> >> layer and the application is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to >> >> very silo'ed deployments, managed, secured and operated >> individually. >> >> Migrating from one access technology to another implies rebuilding >> >> the whole chain. >> >> To unleash the full power of these new technologies and their new >> >> ecosystems, there is a need to couple them with other ecosystems >> that >> >> will guarantee the interworking at the network layer and enable >> >> common components for management and security, as well as shared >> >> application profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling >> >> IPv6/UDP/COAP to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the >> >> operations and manage the devices and their gateways. >> >> Description of Working Group: >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 over selected >> Low-Power >> >> Wide-Area technologies , and , and will >> >> leverage cross-participation with the associated set of stakeholders >> >> to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real demands and >> >> the proposed solutions are applicable. >> >> The group will produce informational work describing LPWA >> >> technologies for IETF consumption, best practice documents on using >> >> IETF technology in LPWA networks directed to the selected partner >> >> bodies, and new standards work to optimize IPv6 operations to the >> >> device. >> >> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF >> >> Internet, Operations and Management, and Security Areas. >> >> Work Items: >> >> ----------- >> >> The group will: >> >> 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating >> existing >> >> LPWA technologies. This document will highlight the common >> >> characteristics but will not aim at providing a competitive >> analysis. >> >> 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, >> >> highlighting potential areas where IETF technologies may be >> >> leveraged; these documents may eventually be published as >> >> Informational RFCs. >> >> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of >> IPv6 >> >> over LPWA. >> >> Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a >> generic >> >> YANG data model to enable the compression, and protocols to install >> >> the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also >> >> include, for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track >> >> documents to describe how the fields relevant to the decompression >> >> are encoded over the air, if any. >> >> 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets >> >> over LPWA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, >> >> or as new Standard Track document if that is deemed necessary. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> lp-wan mailing list >> >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > lp-wan mailing list >> > lp-wan@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > From nobody Tue Apr 26 04:47:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D034B12D0E3 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I8RMh5iB7FBY for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 715D412D0F3 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,536,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="215861117" Received: from mail-lf0-f48.google.com ([209.85.215.48]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 26 Apr 2016 13:47:30 +0200 Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id c126so14546448lfb.2 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUGcZQ8r1Lby36f291Wz4rKaDCY1idmhFVYdPofLw328rCpK8DR8KNLWjQ4SIOjRwDEKs0+qdl8z4KcwA== X-Received: by 10.112.147.225 with SMTP id tn1mr1114823lbb.98.1461671249961; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.143.12 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:47:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:47:09 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a8cf4a1edc2053161db5f Archived-At: Cc: Ana Minaburo , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:47:38 -0000 --047d7b3a8cf4a1edc2053161db5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal, all, [I'm catching up on e-mail, and I see there is a lot of traffic going already, so please bare with me as I process e-mails in chronological order.] I agree with your analysis of how the LPWAN BoF went in B-A. The 3 technologies you list are IMO, the right ones to start with. My 2c, Thomas On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > Hello Thomas: > > > > The sense of the room and the talks in the corridors made very clear (to > me) that there were elephants (and maybe one mammoth) in the room. At the > top of the rumor, we found LoRa, SigFox and 802.15.4g. To progress, we ne= ed > contacts (cross participation, intent messaging from responsible entities= ), > we must identify deliverables that make sense for the IETF (feasibility i= n > due time), and critical mass of people (we seem to have it for identified > candidate items). > > > > My perception so far: > > > > - LoRa: we have an organization to talk to, LoRaWAN; we have not > determined yet if and on which topic there is a shared desire to get work > done at the IETF > > - 802.15.4g: we also have a clear partner organization, and we are > used to work together. What is less clear is the issues that this > technology has in common with other LPWA networks, and which PHYs would b= e > considered > > - SigFox: we found a common interest, but the exact topics need to > be refined before Berlin. It is unclear (to me) if we have a peer > organization to talk to and how the adoption of IETF work will happen. > > > > There is also the question of whether the work we do would be of interest > for NB-IOT: there was little hope that a consistent sense would emerge > between now and Berlin that NB-IOT is willing to consider adopting, say, = a > new compression technique as an update/replacement to ROHC. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Pascal > > > > *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Thomas > Watteyne > *Sent:* mardi 19 avril 2016 09:37 > *To:* Hannes Tschofenig > *Cc:* Ana Minaburo ; lp-wan@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin > > > > I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work needs to be done in the > area of LPWAN at the IETF. > > > > Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the technology that was > going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from the initial e-mail > in this thread. > > > > There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow the scope of LPWAN to > 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks about whether this w= as > the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether there was pull from th= e > entities defining that technology. Since then, representatives of compani= es > working on SIGFOX and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear > interest for the solutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others > speaking up. > > > > So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I strongly suggest the > LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set. Please note tha= t > a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that "feature" of > LPWAN should be lifted. > > > > My 2c. > > > > Thomas > > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig < > Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: > > Hi Ana, > > > > I would focus on the use of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks. > > > > Device management approaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work > over these radio technologies. > > > > For security I haven=E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that som= e work is > needed. > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > *From:* lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ana > Minaburo > *Sent:* 18 April 2016 23:03 > *To:* lp-wan@ietf.org > *Subject:* [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin > > > > Hello again, > > > > Well in this message I would like to discuss the scope of the WG. We need > to define the focused gaps we want to work in. Let's agree about which ar= e > the subjects we want to study, > > > > I think the following points are vey important in order to create the WG, > please tell me which other you think we need to add. > > > > > > 1. IPv6 > > draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis-00 > > IP End to End Communication > > IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation > > ND will be configured in advanced > > > > 2. Header Compression > > draft-toutain-lp-wan-compression-context-00 > > New Mechanism adapted to challenged networks > > > > 3. Security > > Personal information need to be secured, > > > > 4. Management > > draft-pelov-core-cosol-01 > > draft-veillette-core-cool-01 > > draft-somaraju-core-sid-00 > > > > Regards > > Ana > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________ > > > > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH > > > > www.thomaswatteyne.com > > _______________________________________ > --=20 _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --047d7b3a8cf4a1edc2053161db5f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal, all,

[I'm catching up on e-= mail, and I see there is a lot of traffic going already, so please bare wit= h me as I process e-mails in chronological order.]

I agree with your analysis of how the LPWAN BoF went in B-A. The 3 technol= ogies you list are IMO, the right ones to start with.

<= div>My 2c,

Thomas

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Pasca= l Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

Hello Thomas:

=C2=A0

The sense of the room and the talks i= n the corridors made very clear (to me) that there were elephants (and mayb= e one mammoth) in the room. At the top of the rumor, we found LoRa, SigFox and 802.15.4g. To progress, we need contacts = (cross participation, intent messaging from responsible entities), we must = identify deliverables that make sense for the IETF (feasibility in due time= ), and critical mass of people (we seem to have it for identified candidate items).

=C2=A0

My perception so far:

=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 LoRa: we have an organization to= talk to, LoRaWAN; we have not determined yet if and on which topic there i= s a shared desire to get work done at the IETF

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 802.15.4g: we also have a clear = partner organization, and we are used to work together. What is less clear = is the issues that this technology has in common with other LPWA networks, and which PHYs would be considered=

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SigFox: we found a common intere= st, but the exact topics need to be refined before Berlin. It is unclear (t= o me) if we have a peer organization to talk to and how the adoption of IETF work will happen.

=C2=A0

There is also the question of whether= the work we do would be of interest for NB-IOT: there was little hope that= a consistent sense would emerge between now and Berlin that NB-IOT is willing to consider adopting, say, a new compression= technique as an update/replacement to ROHC.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watteyne
Sent: mardi 19 avril 2016 09:37
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: Ana Minaburo <ana@minaburo.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin=

=C2=A0

I believe the BoF at Buenos Aires indicated work nee= ds to be done in the area of LPWAN at the IETF.

=C2=A0

Most of the discussion in Buenos Aires was about the= technology that was going to be addressed; that discussion is missing from= the initial e-mail in this thread.

=C2=A0

There was a clear consensus from the room to narrow = the scope of LPWAN to 2-3 long-range technologies. There were some remarks = about whether this was the LPWAN group pushing new technology, or whether t= here was pull from the entities defining that technology. Since then, representatives of companies working on SIGFO= X and IEEE802.15.4g technology spoke up, expressing clear interest for the = solutions LPWAN could come up with. There may be others speaking up.=

=C2=A0

So I believe we have our 2-3 technologies, and I str= ongly suggest the LPWAN group narrows its scope to those as an initial set.= Please note that a IEEE802.15.4g network is not per-se single hop, so that= "feature" of LPWAN should be lifted.

=C2=A0

My 2c.

=C2=A0

Thomas

=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Hannes Tschofenig &= lt;Hannes.Ts= chofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Ana,

=C2=A0

I would focus on the u= se of IPv6 over these low power wide area networks.

=C2=A0

Device management appr= oaches, OMA LWM2M, COMI/COOL or others, would work over these radio technologies.

=C2=A0

For security I haven= =E2=80=99t seen a document that convinced me that some work is needed.

=C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

=C2=A0

From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>] On Behalf Of Ana Minaburo
Sent: 18 April 2016 23:03
To: lp-w= an@ietf.org
Subject: [lp-wan] Focused Scope for LPWAN WG at Berlin

=C2=A0

Hello again,

=C2=A0

Well in this message I would li= ke to discuss the scope of the WG. We need to define the focused gaps we wa= nt to work in. Let's agree about which are the subjects we want to study,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think the following points ar= e vey important in order to create the WG, please tell me which other you t= hink we need to add.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. IPv6=C2=A0

draft-gomez-lpwan-ipv6-analysis= -00

IP End to End Communication<= /u>

IPv6 MTU requires fragmentation= =C2=A0

ND will be configured in advanc= ed

=C2=A0

2. Header Compression=C2=A0<= /u>

draft-toutain-lp-wan-compressio= n-context-00

New Mechanism adapted to challe= nged networks

=C2=A0

3.=C2=A0 Security=

Personal information need to be= secured,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

4. Management=C2=A0

draft-pelov-core-cosol-01

draft-veillette-core-cool-01=

draft-somaraju-core-sid-00

=C2=A0

Regards

Ana

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents = of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileg= ed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immedia= tely and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the informat= ion in any medium. Thank you.


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



=C2=A0

--

= _______________________________________

=C2=A0

= Thomas Watteyne, PhD

= Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria

= Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech

= Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN

= Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

=C2=A0

= _______________________________________




--
_______________________= ________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist= & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Found= er & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

www.thomaswat= teyne.com
_______________________________________
--047d7b3a8cf4a1edc2053161db5f-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 04:55:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00C912D0FB for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:55:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO3veqclkPtc for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E58E12D148 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:55:09 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,536,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="215862352" Received: from mail-lf0-f51.google.com ([209.85.215.51]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 26 Apr 2016 13:55:07 +0200 Received: by mail-lf0-f51.google.com with SMTP id j11so14784112lfb.1 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXVZvOHy58jGNCQU0PU7Fx5AAougS8nOH6i7rjrHZuVB+PU6/cd5tK4wYfvDBtR3Rpw0VrMgi7gIo77xg== X-Received: by 10.25.150.147 with SMTP id y141mr1004271lfd.95.1461671707204; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:55:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.143.12 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:54:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:54:47 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Xavier Vilajosana Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11402544e2ec97053161f69e Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:55:12 -0000 --001a11402544e2ec97053161f69e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 for the downstream comment. On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Xavier Vilajosana < xvilajosana@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote: > +1 for downstream as well. > > I would say > "ten years" instead of 10 years. > > Xavi > > > > 2016-04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa Dohler : > >> Very good! Thanks, Pascal. >> >> PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, >> drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity >> which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here= (I >> have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may >> have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". >> #justsaying >> >> Mischa. >> >> >> On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Trying; what about: >> >> >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic >> name of >> >> Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics whic= h >> make >> >> these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data >> collection >> >> applications. >> >> >> >> Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the >> order of >> >> a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over >> a basic >> >> star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. >> >> >> >> This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, >> with 10 >> >> years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the >> deployment at >> >> a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and >> operations. >> >> >> >> <=E2=80=A6> >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> Pascal >> >> >> >> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >> ] >> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 >> *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; >> Carsten Bormann ; Juan Carlos Zuniga >> >> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; >> lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov >> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> >> >> Dear Pascal, >> >> Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the >> term instead of using a substitute. >> >> (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) >> >> Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. >> >> On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Hello Mischa: >> >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use ins= tead? You >> know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for >> IOT links. >> >> I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggestio= n? >> >> >> >> Pascal >> >> >> >> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >> ] >> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 >> *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan >> Carlos Zuniga >> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) >> ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> ; Alexander >> Pelov >> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >> >> >> >> +1 >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> >> >> Prof Mischa Dohler >> >> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >> >> Chair Professor, King's College London >> >> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >> >> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >> >> Fellow, IEEE >> >> >> >> www.mischadohler.com >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is >> >> neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are >> >> actually trying to do. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --001a11402544e2ec97053161f69e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 for the downstream comment.
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan


On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Xavier= Vilajosana <xvilajosana@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrot= e:
+1 for downstrea= m as well.

I would say=C2=A0
"t= en years" instead of 10 years.

Xavi
=



2016-04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa= Dohler <mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk>:
=20 =20 =20
Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying

Mischa.


On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Trying; what about:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= u>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:windowtext"> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &= lt;pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cab= o@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga = <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) &l= t;paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <= a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal= ,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 an= y suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; = lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@= ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
              
=C2=A0

              
Prof Mischa Dohler

              
Head, Centre for Telecom Research

              
Chair Professor, King's College London=


              
Board of Directors, Worldsensing

              
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT

              
Fellow, IEEE

              
=C2=A0

              
www.mischadohler.com

              
______________________________________
              

                
On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten
                  Bormann wrote:

              

              

                
While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "L=
LN"? This is

                
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-W=
AN people are

                
actually trying to do.

              

              
=C2=A0

=C2=A0



__________________________________________= _____
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan





--
_______________= ________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Sci= entist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH
<= br>
_______________________________________
--001a11402544e2ec97053161f69e-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 05:02:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E5912D162 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.905 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c-2nzyrKCAkd for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A45C12D164 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,536,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="175805403" Received: from mail-lf0-f54.google.com ([209.85.215.54]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 26 Apr 2016 14:01:53 +0200 Received: by mail-lf0-f54.google.com with SMTP id c126so14984092lfb.2 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVoihM+YdjPGR5dbFNZcPbe/73kbNtFmqW1H+ViRQpdICFLCA4rLdEv+qBy41iR7EPNSiH8iq2I3VZ7vg== X-Received: by 10.25.206.207 with SMTP id e198mr1140050lfg.97.1461672112681; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.143.12 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:01:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:01:32 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Xavier Vilajosana Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11412f560e00370531620fa6 Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:02:05 -0000 --001a11412f560e00370531620fa6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About mesh vs. star, let's not get confused about what we are addressing. IMO, LPWAN introduces a new set of PHY layers which introduce new opportunities and new challenges. Let's use LPWAN to make sure IETF protocols can run on top of these. Once that is done, if people want to mesh, let'm mesh! I suggest we don't have a "star vs mesh" fight in the charter, it's not LPWAN's focus. On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Thomas Watteyne wrote: > +1 for the downstream comment. > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Xavier Vilajosana < > xvilajosana@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote: > >> +1 for downstream as well. >> >> I would say >> "ten years" instead of 10 years. >> >> Xavi >> >> >> >> 2016-04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa Dohler : >> >>> Very good! Thanks, Pascal. >>> >>> PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, >>> drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity >>> which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream her= e (I >>> have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I ma= y >>> have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". >>> #justsaying >>> >>> Mischa. >>> >>> >>> On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>> >>> Trying; what about: >>> >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=9C >>> >>> A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic >>> name of >>> >>> Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics >>> which make >>> >>> these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data >>> collection >>> >>> applications. >>> >>> >>> >>> Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the >>> order of >>> >>> a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern ove= r >>> a basic >>> >>> star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. >>> >>> >>> >>> This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime= , >>> with 10 >>> >>> years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the >>> deployment at >>> >>> a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and >>> operations. >>> >>> >>> >>> <=E2=80=A6> >>> >>> =E2=80=9C >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> >>> Pascal >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >>> ] >>> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 >>> *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> ; Carsten Bormann ; >>> Juan Carlos Zuniga >>> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; >>> lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov >>> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Pascal, >>> >>> Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping th= e >>> term instead of using a substitute. >>> >>> (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) >>> >>> Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. >>> >>> On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>> >>> Hello Mischa: >>> >>> >>> >>> I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use in= stead? >>> You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IET= F >>> for IOT links. >>> >>> I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggesti= on? >>> >>> >>> >>> Pascal >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >>> ] >>> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 >>> *To:* Carsten Bormann ; Juan >>> Carlos Zuniga >>> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) >>> ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> ; >>> Alexander Pelov >>> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >>> >>> >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> ______________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> Prof Mischa Dohler >>> >>> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >>> >>> Chair Professor, King's College London >>> >>> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >>> >>> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >>> >>> Fellow, IEEE >>> >>> >>> >>> www.mischadohler.com >>> >>> ______________________________________ >>> >>> On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >>> While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is >>> >>> neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are >>> >>> actually trying to do. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> lp-wan mailing list >>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lp-wan mailing list >> lp-wan@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >> >> > > > -- > _______________________________________ > > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH > > www.thomaswatteyne.com > _______________________________________ > --=20 _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --001a11412f560e00370531620fa6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
About mesh vs. star, let's not get confused about what= we are addressing.

IMO, LPWAN introduces a new set of PHY lay= ers which introduce new opportunities and new challenges.
Let'= ;s use LPWAN to make sure IETF protocols can run on top of these.
Once that is done, if people want to mesh, let'm mesh!

<= /div>
I suggest we don't have a "star vs mesh" fight in t= he charter, it's not LPWAN's focus.


--
_______________________________________

Thom= as Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
=
Sr Netwo= rking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWS= N
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

__________________= _____________________



--
___________= ____________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
=
Research= Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech=
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

_______________________________________<= /div>
--001a11412f560e00370531620fa6-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 05:23:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A16712D178 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LwJQLb9e8rVm for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2100512B011 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:29 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,536,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="215868069" Received: from mail-lf0-f42.google.com ([209.85.215.42]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 26 Apr 2016 14:23:27 +0200 Received: by mail-lf0-f42.google.com with SMTP id y84so13914271lfc.0 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUdLIgjFoL9kxCjWbHtJPcUuREv57f7P9hQ1rbkngTOdNbVHGypE0nQsrnoa/e+9DPvZScL3+7cRgQJ9w== X-Received: by 10.112.147.225 with SMTP id tn1mr1186831lbb.98.1461673407129; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.143.12 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:23:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:23:07 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a8cf435b0e20531625c08 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:23:33 -0000 --047d7b3a8cf435b0e20531625c08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Pascal, Thanks for putting together this. Some suggestions. GENERAL COMMENT should the beginning of the charter discuss about capacity issues when lots of these long range devices are used in the same area, if no coordination is done? ABOUT Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportunity, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. COMMENTS - we might want to remove "over a simple star topology", or just say "generally over a simple star topology" - is "tens of bytes" true? aren't we dealing with <10 bytes in some of the technologies considered? ABOUT This enables a range in tens of kilometers COMMENTS Tens of km means at least 20, which might be a stretch, especially in non-LOS environments. Why not "This enables a range of several kilometers"? ABOUT up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell COMMENTS "up to" suggests there is a hard stop at 10 years. Why not "possibly ten years of" ABOUT the inter-working at the network COMMENTS a paragraph earlier the charter says there is no network layer. I understand what you mean, I would just make sure this doesn't confuse people OLD new standard track NEW new standards track OLD highlights actual needs NEW highlight actual needs ABOUT the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to describe the compression COMMENT I agree that the work item is important, but I don't see how the YANG formalism is useful for describing compression Thomas On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > <6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things > applications. > > > > Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple > star > > topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few > times per > > day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive > opportunity, a > > transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to > stay > > longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. > > > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, > with up > > to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple > and > > scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > specific > > to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is > > often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be > managed, > > secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to > another > > implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > > > To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there > is a > > need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the > inter-working > > at the network layer and enable common components for management and > security, > > as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by > enabling IPv6 > > connectivity to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the > operations > > and manage the devices and their gateways. > > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a > selection of > > Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . > > > > These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely > unbalanced > > over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame > formats to > > accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) > cannot be > > trivially applied. > > > > The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated > set of > > stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real > demands > > and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, > describing LPWA > > technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF > technologies > > in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, and new standard track > work > > to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end device, down to the > remote-I/O > > model where the device itself is not fully aware of the whole stack. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet > Area, > > Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some > LPWA > > technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and > highlights > > actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to > provide a > > competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein > > originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may > > leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. > > > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that > the > > resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA > stakeholders > > and lead to additional work in the future. > > > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a > CoAP/UDP/IPv6 > > packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus > on a > > generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to > install > > the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also > include, for > > the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe > how the > > fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > -- _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --047d7b3a8cf435b0e20531625c08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal,

Thanks for putting together thi= s. Some suggestions.

GENERAL COMMENT
should the beginning of the charter discuss about capacity issues when lo= ts of these long range devices are used in the same area, if no coordinatio= n is done?

ABOUT
Those common= traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple star
= topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per
day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally ma= ssive opportunity, a
transmission pattern which is generally upst= ream and allows the devices to stay
longer in low-energy deep-sle= ep mode.
COMMENTS
- we might want to remove "= ;over a simple star topology", or just say "generally over a simp= le star topology"


--
_______________= ________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Sci= entist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH
<= br>
_______________________________________
--047d7b3a8cf435b0e20531625c08-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 05:47:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B24E12D1AA for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08bRm88ECLNx for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6C1F12D0A5 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:47:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=25699; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461674824; x=1462884424; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=7IVbhmGW14WW0y4kbmMmoTSjii/2sg8VO2MSdaf/wUw=; b=OM9/J5H0Vzwqv9UnYj9/uLnPcUcYb5DY2hqzd+6eovK8d45qy3QdeaSp XrQHXYjjniuShBISQ9ernvYNHjtr1uEP3qzxWYiOmMx/JNOWmJgrkg24c 9Ndbh/nMHVukFFp7ErZEoNo5Y/erTZcmQVWkzO/l2WuoZ9EW/sSnYzJwe w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AcBQDxYR9X/4gNJK1egmxMU30Gu3gXA?= =?us-ascii?q?QqFbAKBOjsRAQEBAQEBAWUnhEEBAQEEAQEBawsQAgEIEQMBAiEHBycLFAkIAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BDQUbiA8Ow3IBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVhiGDSYEChAkaPA0JAgaFG?= =?us-ascii?q?AWHdIVghUuEcQGIcoUkjxGPLwE2LIICHoFLbIgBfwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,536,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="265553919" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Apr 2016 12:47:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-003.cisco.com (xch-rtp-003.cisco.com [64.101.220.143]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3QCl3kR016137 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:47:03 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) by XCH-RTP-003.cisco.com (64.101.220.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:47:02 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-014.cisco.com ([64.101.220.154]) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com ([64.101.220.154]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:47:02 -0400 From: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" To: Thomas Watteyne , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 Thread-Index: AQHRn7m6MXXSOgxg40OTnyMUhruMQA== Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:47:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.49.80.27] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3452D6B6A3D0pwetterwciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:47:07 -0000 --_000_D3452D6B6A3D0pwetterwciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Some remarks, comments: ---------------------- Old text: The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. New text: The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies and architectures. ---------------------- Then the order of the deliverables are not adequate. I suggest that we do t= he following: 1. description of technologies and architectures 2. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/= UDP/IPv6 packet over LPWA 3. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over= LPWA 4. Produce best practice documents for security and management 4 could be complete after 1, 2 and 3 only. Also I do not like the term =93best practice=94. It could be off track for = the IETF. I rather say informational document on bla bla. Last point, each Standard documents will include a security section, right?= Do we want to mention this as well? Many thanks for putting this proposal together. Patrick From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of Thomas Watteyne > Date: Tuesday 26 April 2016 at 14:23 To: Pascal THUBERT > Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 Pascal, Thanks for putting together this. Some suggestions. GENERAL COMMENT should the beginning of the charter discuss about capacity issues when lots= of these long range devices are used in the same area, if no coordination = is done? ABOUT Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple sta= r topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportuni= ty, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to = stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. COMMENTS - we might want to remove "over a simple star topology", or just say "gener= ally over a simple star topology" - is "tens of bytes" true? aren't we dealing with <10 bytes in some of the = technologies considered? ABOUT This enables a range in tens of kilometers COMMENTS Tens of km means at least 20, which might be a stretch, especially in non-L= OS environments. Why not "This enables a range of several kilometers"? ABOUT up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell COMMENTS "up to" suggests there is a hard stop at 10 years. Why not "possibly ten ye= ars of" ABOUT the inter-working at the network COMMENTS a paragraph earlier the charter says there is no network layer. I understan= d what you mean, I would just make sure this doesn't confuse people OLD new standard track NEW new standards track OLD highlights actual needs NEW highlight actual needs ABOUT the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to describe the compressio= n COMMENT I agree that the work item is important, but I don't see how the YANG forma= lism is useful for describing compression Thomas On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: <6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s. Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple sta= r topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportuni= ty, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to = stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, wi= th up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple a= nd scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and spe= cific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the applicatio= n is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be man= aged, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to an= other implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there = is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-wor= king at the network layer and enable common components for management and securi= ty, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling= IPv6 connectivity to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the operati= ons and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection= of Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbal= anced over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame forma= ts to accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cann= ot be trivially applied. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set= of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real deman= ds and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing= LPWA technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technol= ogies in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, and new standard track = work to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end device, down to the remote= -I/O model where the device itself is not fully aware of the whole stack. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Ar= ea, Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ghts actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that th= e resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakehold= ers and lead to additional work in the future. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP= /IPv6 packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus = on a generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to insta= ll the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include= , for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe ho= w the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan -- _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --_000_D3452D6B6A3D0pwetterwciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

Some remarks, comments:
----------------------
Old text:

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing some LPWA

technologies. 

New text:

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing LPWA

technologies and architectures. 

----------------------

Then the order of the deliverables are not adequate. I suggest that we= do the following:
  1. description of technologies and architectures

  2. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compr= ession of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6 packet over LPWA

  3. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets= over LPWA
  4. Produce best practice documents for security an= d management
4 could be complete after 1, 2 and 3 only.

Also I do not like the term =93best practice=94. It could be off track= for the IETF. I rather say informational document on bla bla.

Last point, each Standard documents will include a security section, r= ight? Do we want to mention this as well?

Many thanks for putting this proposal together.

Patrick


From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Thoma= s Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@= inria.fr>
Date: Tuesday 26 April 2016 at 14:2= 3
To: Pascal THUBERT <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" <= lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed char= ter v4

Pascal,

Thanks for putting together this. Some suggestions.

GENERAL COMMENT
should the beginning of the charter discuss about capacity issues when= lots of these long range devices are used in the same area, if no coordina= tion is done?

ABOUT
Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simpl= e star
topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few = times per
day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive oppo= rtunity, a
transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the device= s to stay
longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.
COMMENTS
- we might want to remove "over a simple star topology", or = just say "generally over a simple star topology"
- is "tens of bytes" true? aren't we dealing with <10 byt= es in some of the technologies considered?

ABOUT
This enables a range in tens of kilometers
COMMENTS
Tens of km means at least 20, which might be a stretch, especially in = non-LOS environments. Why not "This enables a range of several kilomet= ers"?

ABOUT
up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell
COMMENTS
"up to" suggests there is a hard stop at 10 years. Why not &= quot;possibly ten years of"

ABOUT
the inter-working at the network
COMMENTS
a paragraph earlier the charter says there is no network layer. I unde= rstand what you mean, I would just make sure this doesn't confuse people

OLD
new standard track
NEW
new standards track

OLD
highlights actual needs
NEW
highlight actual needs

ABOUT
the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to describe the compr= ession
COMMENT
I agree that the work item is important, but I don't see how the YANG = formalism is useful for describing compression

Thomas







On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert = (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

<6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area n= etworks".

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerge= d under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common = characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Interne= t of Things applications.

 

Those common traits include an optimized radio modul= ation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes = transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an eq= ually massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally upstream and= allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.<= /p>

 

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a lo= ng battery lifetime, with up

to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. Thi= s also enables simple and

scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin = infrastructures.

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and specific

to each individual technology. There is no network l= ayer and the application is

often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deplo= yments that must be managed,

secured and operated individually. Migrating from on= e LPWA technology to another

implies rebuilding the whole chain.

 

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and t= heir ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the inter-working

at the network layer and enable common components fo= r management and security,

as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can= contribute by enabling IPv6

connectivity to the devices, and propose technologie= s to secure the operations

and manage the devices and their gateways.=

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connec= tivity over a selection of

Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <= ;Tech2> and <Tech3>.

 

These technologies present similar characteristics o= f rare and widely unbalanced

over-the-air transmissions, with little capability t= o alter the frame formats to

accommodate this work, which makes it so that existi= ng IETF work (6lo) cannot be

trivially applied.

 

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation = with the associated set of

stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place co= rresponds to real demands

and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicabl= e.

 

The group will produce informational work, for IETF = consumption, describing LPWA

technologies and their needs, best practice document= s on using IETF technologies

in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, = and new standard track work

to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end dev= ice, down to the remote-I/O

model where the device itself is not fully aware of = the whole stack.

 

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet Area,

Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing some LPWA

technologies. This work will document the common cha= racteristics and highlights

actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is no= t an intention to provide a

competitive analysis. It is expected that the inform= ation contained therein

originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders= , and that this WG may

leverage the resulting document to suggest new activ= ity in other WGs.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is= an expectation that the

resulting document(s) may contribute to the interact= ion with LPWA stakeholders

and lead to additional work in the future.=

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6

packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraint= s, the work will focus on a

generic YANG data model to describe the compression,= and protocols to install

the related state at the compression end-points; the= work will also include, for

the selected technologies, specific Standard Track d= ocuments to describe how the

fields relevant to the decompression are encoded ove= r the air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
_________= ______________________________

Thomas Wa= tteyne, PhD
Research = Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networ= king Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder &= amp; co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair,= IETF 6TiSCH

_________= ______________________________
 --_000_D3452D6B6A3D0pwetterwciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 07:14:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62D512D1C9 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 07:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oKeLiWhUyMGr for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 07:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D0C312B065 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 07:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B58203AF for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB1463755 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:14:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: lp-wan@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5ac260f3ca48454185f3073d1ff8c0e7@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <17321.1461613690@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5ac260f3ca48454185f3073d1ff8c0e7@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:14:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of names. I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants. It's appropriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced IETF people about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems like that's all we are hearing. I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN makers. I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF "side" of IoT and that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources to spend on this. Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing the LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are storming the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable. In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to interoperate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not engage very well without side entities. And that's when we have, in theory, an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets. With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 through 5 with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the market push interoperation here at all. Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware. I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is really participating? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBVx93p4CLcPvd0N1lAQIoZggAgORKSFxNYqia7GE0VLAQnfi65t8xag7w XDa6LeOJoVKrDywaiYo8C5dhR7aI5H7zovI10jivwL3NxWtCmqm40cnw49729CNM f6hEO/pqrSLrmsQszQjpLOBL1lQw0QuC2W7mKLyRkwKbccftkarakLOt/GXiIzum 0hIpQ4RCXN/DjrQtyKy4jVE76t1aZCnzl9Wca14xUw3U5aITep996mqfu3EITNhY FuRdOM0caS9iSnNplQk+H2zowmzSF/8rdA4Ti5HiW8WSzxcwYrYpHS5AiQkoHxXY MNuaR/WDbR8KOYSdqpjc/PgSr6qMAyoFZz9G82xsFMltJIgNuHRJJw== =2D8Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 07:44:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8706A12D1D4 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 07:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Michael, I understand your concern. We, Gridbee Communications, are looking to the IETF for a technical solution. If that solution meets our requirements, it will be considered for our future product. We are building hardware based on IEEE 802.15.4-SUN for our products. Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz 2016-04-26 16:14 GMT+02:00 Michael Richardson : > > Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of > names. > I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants. It's > appropriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced > IETF people about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems like > that's all we are hearing. > > I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN > makers. I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF "side" of > IoT > and that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources > to > spend on this. > > Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing th= e > LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are > storming the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable. > > In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to > interoperate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not > engage very well without side entities. And that's when we have, in > theory, > an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets. > > With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 > through 5 > with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the market push > interoperation here at all. > > Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware. > I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is > really participating? > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 --001a11c3fd2a1b850b0531645356 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Michael,=C2=A0

I understand your = concern. We, Gridbee Communications, are looking to the IETF for a technica= l solution. If that solution meets our requirements, it will be considered = for our future product. We are building hardware based on IEEE 802.15.4-SUN= for our products.=C2=A0

Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz
=

2016-04-26 = 16:14 GMT+02:00 Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>:

Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of name= s.
I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants.=C2=A0 It&#= 39;s
appropriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced
IETF people about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems lik= e
that's all we are hearing.

I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN<= br> makers.=C2=A0 I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF &qu= ot;side" of IoT
and that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources t= o
spend on this.

Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing the<= br> LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are
storming the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable.

In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to
interoperate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not engage very well without side entities.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And that's when we = have, in theory,
an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets.
With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 through= 5
with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the market push=
interoperation here at all.

Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware.
I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is
really participating?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Jo= nathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Grid= bee Communications & INRIA Paris
+= 33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83
--001a11c3fd2a1b850b0531645356-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 08:32:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C3B12D1EB for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:32:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74nvN0uFKn3a for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 208E412D1E7 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=52446; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461684755; x=1462894355; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=t7Jmvf7LRYQJpBjrHbxANBOfCQm15AMBVmR9Kyf1hhM=; b=diTu2ctDg7ssPJG5BMBnSL4MND5Ab5Udbt0iP9qYPo1JiWbrenSN251k ALI2Ul0CN9pQEAjcLCHHCdkVwMtVSh6yO5umNDE/y1/LSiAizdK9zREI/ MBQ/MKrX12jAQyDzHJdG1X1OBkvRS58UyP8Mr/aL1M/TO1i4sn08nlQhz o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BNBQCNiR9X/4kNJK1egmxMU30GugaBc?= =?us-ascii?q?AQXAQqFbAKBOzoSAQEBAQEBAWUnhEEBAQEEAQEBKkELEAIBCBEDAQEBIQEGByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAQEEAQ0FCBOIDw7EKwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARWGIYNJgQKEC?= =?us-ascii?q?RopEw0JAgaFGAWHdIVghUuEcQGIcoUdgW6ETYhdjy8BJgE7ggIegUtsiAF/AQE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,537,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="265514762" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Apr 2016 15:32:33 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3QFWXIJ006366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:32:33 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:32:32 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:32:32 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" , Thomas Watteyne Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 Thread-Index: AdGfFXYSO+weNvD8Qv+3YtgjsxW+iQAytYaAAADV1QAABO6YQA== Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:32:16 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:31:45 +0000 Message-ID: <37310d83620448c2bec9ac33558ca5a3@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_37310d83620448c2bec9ac33558ca5a3XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 15:32:37 -0000 --_000_37310d83620448c2bec9ac33558ca5a3XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Patrick: Ack for the typos. About item 4: Please note that producing BCP is perfectly fine at the IETF,= just like STD track and informational (Intended status: Best Current Pract= ice). Now I can buy that we may do informational work there as opposed to B= CP. Let's start with BCP, and we may decide otherwise depending on the cont= ent that is produced. Thanks for all! Pascal From: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) Sent: mardi 26 avril 2016 14:47 To: Thomas Watteyne ; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <= pthubert@cisco.com> Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 Dear all, Some remarks, comments: ---------------------- Old text: The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. New text: The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing LPWA technologies and architectures. ---------------------- Then the order of the deliverables are not adequate. I suggest that we do t= he following: 1. description of technologies and architectures 2. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/= UDP/IPv6 packet over LPWA 3. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over= LPWA 4. Produce best practice documents for security and management 4 could be complete after 1, 2 and 3 only. Also I do not like the term "best practice". It could be off track for the = IETF. I rather say informational document on bla bla. Last point, each Standard documents will include a security section, right?= Do we want to mention this as well? Many thanks for putting this proposal together. Patrick From: lp-wan > on b= ehalf of Thomas Watteyne > Date: Tuesday 26 April 2016 at 14:23 To: Pascal THUBERT > Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 Pascal, Thanks for putting together this. Some suggestions. GENERAL COMMENT should the beginning of the charter discuss about capacity issues when lots= of these long range devices are used in the same area, if no coordination = is done? ABOUT Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple sta= r topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportuni= ty, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to = stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. COMMENTS - we might want to remove "over a simple star topology", or just say "gener= ally over a simple star topology" - is "tens of bytes" true? aren't we dealing with <10 bytes in some of the = technologies considered? ABOUT This enables a range in tens of kilometers COMMENTS Tens of km means at least 20, which might be a stretch, especially in non-L= OS environments. Why not "This enables a range of several kilometers"? ABOUT up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell COMMENTS "up to" suggests there is a hard stop at 10 years. Why not "possibly ten ye= ars of" ABOUT the inter-working at the network COMMENTS a paragraph earlier the charter says there is no network layer. I understan= d what you mean, I would just make sure this doesn't confuse people OLD new standard track NEW new standards track OLD highlights actual needs NEW highlight actual needs ABOUT the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to describe the compressio= n COMMENT I agree that the work item is important, but I don't see how the YANG forma= lism is useful for describing compression Thomas On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: <6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s. Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple sta= r topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few times= per day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive opportuni= ty, a transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices to = stay longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, wi= th up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple a= nd scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and spe= cific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the applicatio= n is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be man= aged, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to an= other implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there = is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-wor= king at the network layer and enable common components for management and securi= ty, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by enabling= IPv6 connectivity to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the operati= ons and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection= of Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbal= anced over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame forma= ts to accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cann= ot be trivially applied. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set= of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real deman= ds and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing= LPWA technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technol= ogies in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, and new standard track = work to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end device, down to the remote= -I/O model where the device itself is not fully aware of the whole stack. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Ar= ea, Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing some = LPWA technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ghts actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that th= e resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakehold= ers and lead to additional work in the future. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP= /IPv6 packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus = on a generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to insta= ll the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include= , for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe ho= w the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan -- _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --_000_37310d83620448c2bec9ac33558ca5a3XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Patrick:

 

Ack for the typos.
 
About item 4: Please note that producing BCP is perfect=
ly fine at the IETF, just like STD track and informational (Intended=
 status: Best Current Practice). Now I=
 can buy that we may do informational work there as opposed to BCP. LetR=
17;s start with BCP, and we may decide otherwise depending on the content t=
hat is produced.

 

Thanks for all!

 

Pascal

 

From: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)
Sent: mardi 26 avril 2016 14:47
To: Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr>; Pascal Thubert= (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4

 

Dear all,

 

Some remarks, comments:

----------------------

Old text:

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document d= escribing and relating existing some LPWA

technologies. <= /p>

New text:

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document d= escribing and relating existing LPWA

technologies and architectures. <= o:p>

----------------------

Then the order of the deliverables are = not adequate. I suggest that we do the following:

  1. description of technologies and architectures
  2. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP/IP= v6 packet over LPWA
  3. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA=
  4. Produce best practice documents for security and management

4 could be complete after 1, 2 and 3 on= ly.

 

Also I do not like the term “best= practice”. It could be off track for the IETF. I rather say informat= ional document on bla bla.

 

Last point, each Standard documents wil= l include a security section, right? Do we want to mention this as well?

 

Many thanks for putting this proposal t= ogether.

 

Patrick

 

 

From: lp-wan <lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr>
Date: Tuesday 26 April 2016 at 14:23
To: Pascal THUBERT <pthuber= t@cisco.com>
Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org&quo= t; <lp-wan@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4

 

Pascal,

 

Thanks for putting together this. Some = suggestions.

 

GENERAL COMMENT

should the beginning of the charter dis= cuss about capacity issues when lots of these long range devices are used i= n the same area, if no coordination is done?

 

ABOUT

Those common traits include an optimize= d radio modulation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of t= ens of bytes transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emer= ging as an equally massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally= upstream and allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.

COMMENTS

- we might want to remove "over a = simple star topology", or just say "generally over a simple star = topology"

- is "tens of bytes" true? ar= en't we dealing with <10 bytes in some of the technologies considered?

 

ABOUT

This enables a range in tens of kilomet= ers

COMMENTS

Tens of km means at least 20, which mig= ht be a stretch, especially in non-LOS environments. Why not "This ena= bles a range of several kilometers"?

 

ABOUT

up to ten years of operation on a singl= e coin-cell

COMMENTS

"up to" suggests there is a h= ard stop at 10 years. Why not "possibly ten years of"<= /span>

 

ABOUT

the inter-working at the network

COMMENTS

a paragraph earlier the charter says th= ere is no network layer. I understand what you mean, I would just make sure= this doesn't confuse people

 

OLD

new standard track

NEW

new standards track

 

OLD

highlights actual needs

NEW

highlight actual needs

 

ABOUT

the work will focus on a generic YANG d= ata model to describe the compression

COMMENT

I agree that the work item is important= , but I don't see how the YANG formalism is useful for describing compressi= on

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal= Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

<6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Pow= er Wide-Area networks".

 

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

 

A new generation of wireless technolog= ies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a num= ber of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disrupti= ve for Internet of Things applications.

 

Those common traits include an optimiz= ed radio modulation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of = tens of bytes transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be eme= rging as an equally massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generall= y upstream and allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.<= o:p>

 

This enables a range in tens of kilome= ters, and a long battery lifetime, with up

to ten years of operation on a single = coin-cell. This also enables simple and

scalable deployments with low-cost dev= ices and thin infrastructures.

 

Those benefits come at a price: the MA= C-layer formats are optimized and specific

to each individual technology. There i= s no network layer and the application is

often hard wired to the MAC, leading t= o siloed deployments that must be managed,

secured and operated individually. Mig= rating from one LPWA technology to another

implies rebuilding the whole chain.

 

To unleash the full power of LPWA tech= nologies and their ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them with other ecosyst= ems that will guarantee the inter-working

at the network layer and enable common= components for management and security,

as well as shared application profiles= . The IETF can contribute by enabling IPv6

connectivity to the devices, and propo= se technologies to secure the operations

and manage the devices and their gatew= ays.

 

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

 

The Working Group will focus on enabli= ng IPv6 connectivity over a selection of

Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <= tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech3>.

 

These technologies present similar cha= racteristics of rare and widely unbalanced

over-the-air transmissions, with littl= e capability to alter the frame formats to

accommodate this work, which makes it = so that existing IETF work (6lo) cannot be

trivially applied.

 

The Working Group will leverage cross-= participation with the associated set of

stakeholders to ensure that the work t= aking place corresponds to real demands

and that the proposed solutions are in= deed applicable.

 

The group will produce informational w= ork, for IETF consumption, describing LPWA

technologies and their needs, best pra= ctice documents on using IETF technologies

in LPWA networks directed to the selec= ted entities, and new standard track work

to optimize IPv6-based communications = to the end device, down to the remote-I/O

model where the device itself is not f= ully aware of the whole stack.

 

The WG will interface with other appro= priate groups in the IETF Internet Area,

Operations and Management Area, and Se= curity Area.

 

Work Items:

-----------

 

The group will:

 

1. Produce an Informational document d= escribing and relating existing some LPWA

technologies. This work will document = the common characteristics and highlights

actual needs that the IETF could serve= ; but it is not an intention to provide a

competitive analysis. It is expected t= hat the information contained therein

originates from and is reviewed by LPW= A stakeholders, and that this WG may

leverage the resulting document to sug= gest new activity in other WGs.

 

2. Produce best practice documents for= security and management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologie= s may be leveraged; these documents may

eventually be published as Information= al RFCs. It is an expectation that the

resulting document(s) may contribute t= o the interaction with LPWA stakeholders

and lead to additional work in the fut= ure.

 

3. Produce Standard Track documents to= enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6

packet over LPWA. Considering the extr= eme constraints, the work will focus on a

generic YANG data model to describe th= e compression, and protocols to install

the related state at the compression e= nd-points; the work will also include, for

the selected technologies, specific St= andard Track documents to describe how the

fields relevant to the decompression a= re encoded over the air, if any.

 

4. Produce a document to enable the fr= agmentation of larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging e= xisting technology, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed neces= sary.


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

 


 

--

_______________________________________

 

Thomas Watteyne, PhD

Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria<= /p>

Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech

Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN=

Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

 

_______________________________________

--_000_37310d83620448c2bec9ac33558ca5a3XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 10:48:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ECD12D52E for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmH5IfzE1Zit for ; Tue, 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Watteyne Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 Thread-Index: AdGfFXYSO+weNvD8Qv+3YtgjsxW+iQAytYaAAAIgeeA= Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:48:08 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:48:05 +0000 Message-ID: <4d98e54e39884a40a5054991ebd372df@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4d98e54e39884a40a5054991ebd372dfXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:48:39 -0000 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rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3QIVZ1H002258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:31:35 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:31:35 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:31:35 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v5 Thread-Index: AdGf54DReXbUx2XAT+qtNpB6fokGCw== Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:31:18 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:30:48 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:31:44 -0000 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". Background/Introduction: ------------------------ A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s.=20 Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical deploy= ment as a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transm= itted a few times per day, and, though downstream may be supported, a mostly upst= ream transmission pattern that allows the devices to spend most of their time in low-energy deep-sleep mode. This enables a range of several kilometers and a long battery lifetime, pos= sibly ten years operating on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple and sca= lable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and spe= cific to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the applicatio= n is often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be man= aged, secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to an= other implies rebuilding the whole chain. To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there = is a need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-wor= king by introducing a network layer, and enable common components for management= and security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute b= y providing IPv6 connectivity, and propose technologies to secure the operati= ons and manage the devices and their gateways. Description of Working Group: ----------------------------- The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection= of Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbal= anced over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame forma= ts to accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cann= ot be trivially applied. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set= of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real deman= ds and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable.=20 The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing= LPWA technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technol= ogies in LPWA networks, and new standard work to optimize IPv6-based communicatio= ns to the end device, down to the remote-I/O model where the device is not fully = aware of the whole stack. The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Ar= ea, Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. Work Items: ----------- The group will: 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating some selected = LPWA technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ght actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that th= e resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakehold= ers and lead to additional work in the future. 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP= /IPv6 packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus = on a generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to insta= ll the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include= , for the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe ho= w the fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA, either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d Track document if that is deemed necessary. From nobody Wed Apr 27 00:10:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3456312D5E9 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8iyITgIYdJu for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp13.cnnic.cn [218.241.118.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA0412D5DF for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CNNIC-PC (unknown [218.241.103.43]) by ocmail02.zx.nicx.cn (Coremail) with SMTP id AQAAf0AJEEz9ZSBXwSRfCQ--.57784S2; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:10:53 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:10:38 +0800 From: "qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn" To: lp-wan X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7, 2, 5, 136[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <201604271510383983408@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart260804406842_=----" X-CM-TRANSID: AQAAf0AJEEz9ZSBXwSRfCQ--.57784S2 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1UD129KBjDUn29KB7ZKAUJUUUUU529EdanIXcx71UUUUU7v73 VFW2AGmfu7bjvjm3AaLaJ3UjIYCTnIWjp_UUUO67k0a2IF6w1UM7kC6x804xWl14x267AK xVWUJVW8JwAFc2x0x2IEx4CE42xK8VAvwI8IcIk0rVWrJVCq3wAFIxvE14AKwVWUJVWUGw A2ocxC64kIII0Yj41l84x0c7CEw4AK67xGY2AK021l84ACjcxK6xIIjxv20xvE14v26ryj 6F1UM28EF7xvwVC0I7IYx2IY6xkF7I0E14v26F4j6r4UJwA2z4x0Y4vEx4A2jsIE14v26r xl6s0DM28EF7xvwVC2z280aVCY1x0267AKxVW0oVCq3wAS0I0E0xvYzxvE52x082IY62kv 0487Mc02F40En4AKxVAvwIkv4cxYr24l5I8CrVC20s02628v4x8GjsIEw4AK0wAv7VC0I7 IYx2IY67AKxVWUGVWUXwAv7VC2z280aVAFwI0_Jr0_Gr1lOx8S6xCaFVCjc4AY6r1j6r4U M4x0Y48IcxkI7VAKI48JM4xvF2IEb7IF0Fy264kE64k0F24lFcxC0VAYjxAxZF0Ex2Iqxw Cjr7xvwVCIw2I0I7xG6c02F41lc2xSY4AK67AK6r4xMxAIw28IcxkI7VAKI48JMxC20s02 6xCaFVCjc4AY6r1j6r4UMI8I3I0E5I8CrVAFwI0_JrI_JrWlx2IqxVCjr7xvwVAFwI0_Jr I_JrWlx4CE17CEb7AF67AKxVWUJVWUXwCIc40Y0x0EwIxGrwCI42IY6xIIjxv20xvE14v2 6r1j6r1xMIIF0xvE2Ix0cI8IcVCY1x0267AKxVWUJVW8JwCI42IY6xAIw20EY4v20xvaj4 0_Wr1j6rW3Jr1lIxAIcVC2z280aVAFwI0_Jr0_Gr1lIxAIcVC2z280aVCY1x0267AKxVWU JVW8JwCE64xvF2IEb7IF0Fy7YxBIdaVFxhVjvjDU0xZFpf9x07jF1v3UUUUU= X-CM-SenderInfo: xtlq5x5drzvxw6fq0xffof0/ Archived-At: Subject: [lp-wan] data aggregation in lpwan X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:10:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart260804406842_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksZm9sa3MNCg0KQ29uc2lkZXJpbmcgdGhlIGxhcmdlLXNjYWxlIGJ1dCBzbWFsbC1zaXplZCBp bmZvcm1hdGlvbiBleGNoYW5nZSBpbiB0aGUgSU9ULCBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSBkYXRh IGdlbmVyYXRlZCBieSBJT1QgZGV2aWNlcyB0cmFuc21pc3Npb24gbW9yZSBlZmZpY2llbnQsIHdl IG1heSBuZWVkIGEgZGF0YSBhZ2dyZWdhdGlvbiBzY2hlbWUgaW4gSU9ULiANCkNvbnNpZGVyIHRo aXMgc2NlbmFyaW86IGEgaG9tZSBuZXR3b3JrIG1heSBjb25zaXN0IG9mIG1hbnkgc2Vuc29ycywg c3VjaCBhcyBsaWdodCBzZW5zb3IsIG1ldGVyLCBhbmQgZmlyZSBkZXRlY3RvciwgZXRjLCBlYWNo IGZyYW1lIGhhcyB2ZXJ5IHNtYWxsIHBheWxvYWQoMTUgqEMgMTAwIGJ5dGUpIGFuZCBsaW1pdCBu dW1iZXIgb2YgZnJhbWVzIHBlciBkYXkoMTApLiBJT1QgdXNlcnMgbmVlZCByZW1vdGUgYWNjZXNz IHRoZXNlIHNlbnNvcnMgZm9yIHRoZSBlYXN5IG1hbmFnZW1lbnQgYW5kIHNhZmV0eSBvZiBob3Vz ZS4gSWYgaW5pdGlhdGUgYW4gaW50ZXJuZXQgdHJhbnNtaXNzaW9uIGZvciBldmVyeSBmcmFtZSBv ZiBlYWNoIHNlbnNvciwgdGhlIHBheWxvYWQgbXVzdCBhY2NvdW50IHZlcnkgbG93IHBlcmNlbnQg b2YgdGhlIHdob2xlIGZyYW1lKGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIElQIGhlYWRlciwgTUFDIGhlYWRlciBh bmQgUEhZIGhlYWRlcikuIA0KU28sSU1PLCBzZXZlcmFsIHRoZXNlIHNtYWxsIGZyYW1lIHNob3Vs ZCBiZSBhZ2dyZWdhdGVkIGF0IHRoZSB0cmFuc21pdHRlciBhbmQgZGUtYWdncmVnYXRlZCBieSB0 aGUgcmVjZWl2ZXIgZm9yIG1vcmUgZWZmaWNpZW50Lg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzDQpYaWFvd2VpIFFpbg0K DQoNCg== ------=_001_NextPart260804406842_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A
Hi,folks=

Consid= ering the large-scale but small-sized information exchange in the IOT, in = order to make the data generated by IOT devices transmission more efficien= t, we may need a data aggregation scheme in IOT. 
Consider this scenario: = a home network may consist of many sensors, such as light sensor, meter, a= nd fire detector, etc, each frame has very small payload(15 =A8C 100 byte)= and limit number of frames per day(10). IOT users need remote access thes= e sensors for the easy management and safety of house. If initiate an inte= rnet transmission for every frame of each sensor, the payload must account= very low percent of the whole frame(because of the IP header, MAC header = and PHY header). 
So,IMO, several these small frame should be aggregated at the transmitter and de-aggregated by the = receiver for more efficient.

Regards
Xiaowei Qi= n
=0A
=0A ------=_001_NextPart260804406842_=------ From nobody Wed Apr 27 00:19:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4FB12D5DF for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:19:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wWSJ7ARufMPI for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D86CC12D5A8 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 00:19:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5194; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461741596; x=1462951196; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=yyeY8K0W+uMTA0SiUBP4STbSmKR76Y21fPXA3Blr2bQ=; b=E8WIzSiq77rxCqRPtqbUE54oHJqKTNuqFXaC/jZJt9ExENHnuPzXv//+ MA0F3nL5VD0LaLTOXeCJCUC+hH1tCUi3L3jZnK12dSGnHqewifKBmFi3F qJGHmgRMjYUmMAYmUyLkfzW4brmODDuiUSE+95Qj554+gTVETx1fhdmVk k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DTBQDAZyBX/5xdJa1egmxMU320eIZ1F?= =?us-ascii?q?wEKhW0CgTM8EAEBAQEBAQFlHAuEQgEBBAEBAWsLEAIBCC0SBycLFBECBA4FiCo?= =?us-ascii?q?OxFsBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQERBIYhgXWCVoQaYoJsgisFmBABiHKFJ?= =?us-ascii?q?I8Rjy8BNyuDa2yHcYE9AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,540,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="96394941" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Apr 2016 07:19:55 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3R7JtAY011235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:19:55 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 02:19:55 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 02:19:55 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] data aggregation in lpwan Thread-Index: AQHRoFP7Wr6TrYDKqkCqsH++6ZT3zp+dabyx Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:19:55 +0000 Message-ID: <0172DEA4-FB81-4F8E-B6AE-5DED134F33BB@cisco.com> References: <201604271510383983408@cnnic.cn> In-Reply-To: <201604271510383983408@cnnic.cn> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0172DEA4FB814F8EB6AE5DED134F33BBciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan Subject: Re: [lp-wan] data aggregation in lpwan X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:19:58 -0000 --_000_0172DEA4FB814F8EB6AE5DED134F33BBciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I completely buy the concept, Xiaowei. For now, the app is hardwired in the LPWA device, even when it really acts = as an app layer bridge. Being able to plug and play would be fantastic but certainly quite complex = to generalize. Not a low hanging fruit for us. Are there papers/experiments going on? Pascal Le 27 avr. 2016 ? 09:11, "qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn" = > a ?crit : Hi,folks Considering the large-scale but small-sized information exchange in the IOT= , in order to make the data generated by IOT devices transmission more effi= cient, we may need a data aggregation scheme in IOT. Consider this scenario: a home network may consist of many sensors, such as= light sensor, meter, and fire detector, etc, each frame has very small pay= load(15 - 100 byte) and limit number of frames per day(10). IOT users need = remote access these sensors for the easy management and safety of house. If= initiate an internet transmission for every frame of each sensor, the payl= oad must account very low percent of the whole frame(because of the IP head= er, MAC header and PHY header). So,IMO, several these small frame should be aggregated at the transmitter a= nd de-aggregated by the receiver for more efficient. Regards Xiaowei Qin ________________________________ _______________________________________________ lp-wan mailing list lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan --_000_0172DEA4FB814F8EB6AE5DED134F33BBciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I completely buy the concept, Xiaowei.

For now, the app is hardwired in the LPWA de= vice, even when it really acts as an app layer bridge.

Being able to plug and play would be fantast= ic but certainly quite complex to generalize. Not a low hanging fruit for u= s.

Are there papers/experiments going on?

Pascal

Le 27 avr. 2016 à 09:11, "qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn" <= qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn> a écrit :

=0A
=
Hi=EF=BC=8CPascal and folks=
The follows are main two use case=EF=BC=9A
One use case is that several frames generated by one IOT = device are aggregated into one IP packet. 
This use = case suits none-real-time requirements scenario. Data generated by each IO= T device can be stored temporarily at local cache, and then send with fram= e aggregation chain. 
The second use case is that se= veral frames generated by some different IOT devices are aggregated into o= ne IP packet. This use case suits real-time requirements scenario. Da= ta generated by different IOT devices will be transmitted immediately with= frame aggregation chain. 

I have been doing the work of fra= me aggregation for several years. In 2007, I did A-MPDU (Aggregation MAC P= rotocol Data Units) of WI-FI access point in HUAWEI(Based on 802.11n proto= col). From 2012, I try to use frame aggregation to send IOT data. I have d= one several practical tests based on Crossbow sensors, and have some paper= s and experimental data. I will collect them and present them to you as so= on as possible. 

Regards<= /div>
Xiaowei Qin
=0A

=0A
=0A
 
Date: 2016-04-27 15:19
CC: lp-wan
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] data aggregation i= n lpwan
= =0A
I completely buy the concept, Xiaowei.
=0A

=0A
=0A
For now, the ap= p is hardwired in the LPWA device, even when it really acts as an app laye= r bridge.
=0A

=0A
=0A
Being able to plug and play would be fantastic but= certainly quite complex to generalize. Not a low hanging fruit for us.=0A

=0A
=0A
Are there papers/experiments going on?
=0A

=0A
= =0A
Pascal
=0A
=0A

=0ALe 27 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 09:11, = "qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn" <qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn> a =C3=A9crit=  :
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Hi,folks
= =0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
= Considering the large-scale but small-sized information exchange in the IO= T, in order to make the data generated by IOT devices transmission more ef= ficient, we may need=0A a data aggregation scheme in IOT. =0A
Consider thi= s scenario: a home network may consist of many sensors, such as light sens= or, meter, and fire detector, etc, each frame has very small payload(15 = =E2=80=93 100 byte) and limit number of frames per day(10).=0A IOT users n= eed remote access these sensors for the easy management and safety of hous= e. If initiate an internet transmission for every frame of each sensor, th= e payload must account very low percent of the whole frame(because of the = IP header, MAC header and=0A PHY header). 
=0A
=0ASo,IMO, several these= small frame should be aggregated at the transm= itter and de-aggregated by the receiver=0A for more efficient.=0A

=0A
=0A
Regards
=0A
Xiaowei Qin
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=0A
_________= ______________________________________
=0Alp-wan mailing l= ist
=0Alp-wan@ietf.org<= /a>
=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan
=0A
= =0A
=0A
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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 01:22:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: anaminaburo@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.155.131 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 01:22:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ana Minaburo Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 10:22:19 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: NX-mZ_R2rMCrhGdjAh3qkWQxaSU Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3b528da05c80531731cb2 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:22:43 -0000 --001a11c3b528da05c80531731cb2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello Pascal, I have some inputs or questions On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > 6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > Background/Introduction: > ------------------------ > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things > applications. > > Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical > deployment > as a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes > transmitted > a few times per day, and, though downstream may be supported, a mostly > upstream > transmission pattern that allows the devices to spend most of their time in > low-energy deep-sleep mode. > Ana: Is it a good idea to mention that there is a variable MTU ? this will affect the way you make compression and fragmentation. > This enables a range of several kilometers and a long battery lifetime, > possibly > ten years operating on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple and > scalable > deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > specific > to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is > often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be > managed, > secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to > another > implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there > is a > need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the > inter-working > by introducing a network layer, and enable common components for > management and > security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute > by > providing IPv6 connectivity, and propose technologies to secure the > operations > and manage the devices and their gateways. > > Description of Working Group: > ----------------------------- > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a > selection of > Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . > > These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely > unbalanced > over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame > formats to > accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) > cannot be > trivially applied. > > The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated > set of > stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real > demands > and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. > > The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, > describing LPWA > technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF > technologies > in LPWA networks, and new standard work to optimize IPv6-based > communications to > the end device, down to the remote-I/O model where the device is not fully > aware > of the whole stack. > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet > Area, > Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. > > Work Items: > ----------- > > The group will: > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating some selected > LPWA > technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and > highlight > actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to > provide a > competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein > originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may > leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that > the > resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA > stakeholders > and lead to additional work in the future. > > Ana: In this first time we are going to work only in security and management? or we plan also to do BCP for other layers? How about the idea of working in a crosslayer approach and global solutions? do we need to mention it know or for later? > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a > CoAP/UDP/IPv6 > packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus > on a > generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to > install > the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also > include, for > the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe > how the > fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > Thanks for all your work! Ana --001a11c3b528da05c80531731cb2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Pascal,

I have some inputs or que= stions

On Tu= e, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <= ;pthubert@cisco.com= > wrote:
6LPWA: "IPv6 = over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic nam= e of
Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which m= ake
these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things application= s.

Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical deploy= ment
as a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transm= itted
a few times per day, and, though downstream may be supported, a mostly upst= ream
transmission pattern that allows the devices to spend most of their time in=
low-energy deep-sleep mode.

Ana: Is it = a good idea to mention that there is a variable MTU ? this will affect the = way you make compression and fragmentation.


This enables a range of several kilometers and a long battery lifetime, pos= sibly
ten years operating on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple and sca= lable
deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures.

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and spe= cific
to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the applicatio= n is
often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be man= aged,
secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to an= other
implies rebuilding the whole chain.

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there = is a
need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-wor= king
by introducing a network layer, and enable common components for management= and
security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute b= y
providing IPv6 connectivity, and propose technologies to secure the operati= ons
and manage the devices and their gateways.

Description of Working Group:
-----------------------------

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection= of
Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech= 3>.

These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbal= anced
over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame forma= ts to
accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cann= ot be
trivially applied.

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set= of
stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real deman= ds
and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable.

The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing= LPWA
technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technol= ogies
in LPWA networks, and new standard work to optimize IPv6-based communicatio= ns to
the end device, down to the remote-I/O model where the device is not fully = aware
of the whole stack.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Ar= ea,
Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating some selected = LPWA
technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highli= ght
actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provi= de a
competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein=
originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may<= br> leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs.

2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlightin= g
potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents m= ay
eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that th= e
resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakehold= ers
and lead to additional work in the future.

=C2=A0
Ana: In this first time we are going= to work only in security and management? or we plan also to do BCP for oth= er layers? How about the idea of working in a crosslayer approach and globa= l solutions? do we need to mention it know or for later?=C2=A0
= =C2=A0
3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP= /IPv6
packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus = on a
generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to insta= ll
the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include= , for
the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe ho= w the
fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any.

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LP= WA,
either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standar= d
Track document if that is deemed necessary.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

Thanks for all your= work!

Ana
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal, Alexander, Thomas, all, I agree on your comments about the first stage of this WG concerning the topology. Regards, 2016-04-26 14:01 GMT+02:00 Thomas Watteyne : > About mesh vs. star, let's not get confused about what we are addressing. > > IMO, LPWAN introduces a new set of PHY layers which introduce new > opportunities and new challenges. > Let's use LPWAN to make sure IETF protocols can run on top of these. > Once that is done, if people want to mesh, let'm mesh! > > I suggest we don't have a "star vs mesh" fight in the charter, it's not > LPWAN's focus. > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Thomas Watteyne > wrote: > >> +1 for the downstream comment. >> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Xavier Vilajosana < >> xvilajosana@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote: >> >>> +1 for downstream as well. >>> >>> I would say >>> "ten years" instead of 10 years. >>> >>> Xavi >>> >>> >>> >>> 2016-04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa Dohler : >>> >>>> Very good! Thanks, Pascal. >>>> >>>> PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators= , >>>> drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity >>>> which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream he= re (I >>>> have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I m= ay >>>> have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection"= . >>>> #justsaying >>>> >>>> Mischa. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>>> >>>> Trying; what about: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> =E2=80=9C >>>> >>>> A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generi= c >>>> name of >>>> >>>> Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics >>>> which make >>>> >>>> these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data >>>> collection >>>> >>>> applications. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and th= e >>>> order of >>>> >>>> a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern >>>> over a basic >>>> >>>> star topology, and an optimized radio modulation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery >>>> lifetime, with 10 >>>> >>>> years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the >>>> deployment at >>>> >>>> a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and >>>> operations. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <=E2=80=A6> >>>> >>>> =E2=80=9C >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pascal >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >>>> ] >>>> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19 >>>> *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>> ; Carsten Bormann ; >>>> Juan Carlos Zuniga >>>> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) ; >>>> lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov >>>> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Pascal, >>>> >>>> Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping >>>> the term instead of using a substitute. >>>> >>>> (If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...) >>>> >>>> Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa. >>>> >>>> On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Mischa: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use i= nstead? >>>> You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IE= TF >>>> for IOT links. >>>> >>>> I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 any suggest= ion? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pascal >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk >>>> ] >>>> *Sent:* lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53 >>>> *To:* Carsten Bormann ; >>>> Juan Carlos Zuniga >>>> *Cc:* Paul Duffy (paduffy) >>>> ; lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>> ; >>>> Alexander Pelov >>>> *Subject:* Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> ______________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof Mischa Dohler >>>> >>>> Head, Centre for Telecom Research >>>> >>>> Chair Professor, King's College London >>>> >>>> Board of Directors, Worldsensing >>>> >>>> Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT >>>> >>>> Fellow, IEEE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.mischadohler.com >>>> >>>> ______________________________________ >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> >>>> While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "LLN"? This is >>>> >>>> neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-WAN people are >>>> >>>> actually trying to do. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> lp-wan mailing list >>>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> lp-wan mailing list >>> lp-wan@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________ >> >> Thomas Watteyne, PhD >> Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria >> Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech >> Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN >> Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH >> >> www.thomaswatteyne.com >> _______________________________________ >> > > > > -- > _______________________________________ > > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH > > www.thomaswatteyne.com > _______________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > --=20 Jonathan Mu=C3=B1oz PhD student at Gridbee Communications & INRIA Paris +33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83 --001a114014fada1f1105317376c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal, Alexander, Thomas, all,

I agree= on your comments about the first stage of this WG concerning the topology.= =C2=A0

Regards,=C2=A0


2016-04-26 14:01 GM= T+02:00 Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr>:
About mesh vs. star, let&= #39;s not get confused about what we are addressing.

IMO, LPWA= N introduces a new set of PHY layers which introduce new opportunities and = new challenges.
Let's use LPWAN to make sure IETF protocols c= an run on top of these.
Once that is done, if people want to mesh= , let'm mesh!

I suggest we don't have a &q= uot;star vs mesh" fight in the charter, it's not LPWAN's focus= .

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:54 PM, = Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
=
+1 for the downstream comme= nt.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Xavier Vilajosana <= xvilajos= ana@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
+1 for downstream as well.

I would say=C2=A0
"ten years" instead of 10 years= .

Xavi



2016-= 04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa Dohler <mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk>= :
=20 =20 =20
Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying

Mischa.


On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Trying; what about:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= u>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:windowtext"> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &= lt;pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cab= o@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga = <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) &l= t;paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <= a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal= ,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 an= y suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; = lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@= ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
              
=C2=A0

              
Prof Mischa Dohler

              
Head, Centre for Telecom Research

              
Chair Professor, King's College London=


              
Board of Directors, Worldsensing

              
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT

              
Fellow, IEEE

              
=C2=A0

              
www.mischadohler.com

              
______________________________________
              

                
On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten
                  Bormann wrote:

              

              

                
While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "L=
LN"? This is

                
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-W=
AN people are

                
actually trying to do.

              

              
=C2=A0

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
_______________________________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD<= /font>
Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng,= Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, I= ETF 6TiSCH

________________________________= _______



--
_____________________________________= __

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist & Innovator= , Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Founder & co-lead= , UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH




--
Jo= nathan Mu=C3=B1oz
PhD student at Grid= bee Communications & INRIA Paris
+= 33 (0) 6 59 05 93 83
--001a114014fada1f1105317376c1-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 09:09:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF6C12D8A7 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.915 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.915 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sycPwCparBcY for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14B3412D8AC for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,542,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="175979314" Received: from mail-lf0-f46.google.com ([209.85.215.46]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-GCM-SHA256; 27 Apr 2016 18:09:26 +0200 Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id c126so62629391lfb.2 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVVCaXV1Fyq7XWl3Yrsj5PaVNjYj/HuzOpz/WHUljfRUeqwTXRg+Roe0O4uCmsk0D/NRB+CDKeKixkq8w== X-Received: by 10.25.134.138 with SMTP id i132mr4030702lfd.70.1461773366035; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:09:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.143.12 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:09:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4d98e54e39884a40a5054991ebd372df@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <4d98e54e39884a40a5054991ebd372df@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: Thomas Watteyne Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:09:06 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fb7fc398fbf053179a277 Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v4 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:09:36 -0000 --001a113fb7fc398fbf053179a277 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable inline On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > Hello Thomas: > > > > GENERAL COMMENT > > should the beginning of the charter discuss about capacity issues when > lots of these long range devices are used in the same area, if no > coordination is done? > > > > There are things around to address capacity, like power > management, and more can be brought in, like scheduling. There is some > coordination, and again more could be brought in. Adding those topics may > work but may create lengthy discussions which will better fit an installe= d > structure. > ok > ABOUT > > Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple > star > > topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few > times per > > day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive > opportunity, a > > transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices t= o > stay > > longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. > > COMMENTS > > - we might want to remove "over a simple star topology", or just say > "generally over a simple star topology" > > - is "tens of bytes" true? aren't we dealing with <10 bytes in some of th= e > technologies considered? > > > > We are just giving an order. WISA can be down to 1 byte but then > that=E2=80=99s hardly Long Range : ) > > What about: > > =E2=80=9C > > Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical > deployment > > as a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes > transmitted > > a few times per day, and, though downstream may be supported, a mostly > upstream > > transmission pattern that allows the devices to spend most of their time = in > > low-energy deep-sleep mode. > > =E2=80=9C > looks good! > > > > > ABOUT > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers > > COMMENTS > > Tens of km means at least 20, which might be a stretch, especially in > non-LOS environments. Why not "This enables a range of several kilometers= "? > > > > Depends on the PHY, and the environment. I can go with that > proposal but let=E2=80=99s see how others react when I publish. > eager to see the reaction > ABOUT > > up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell > > COMMENTS > > "up to" suggests there is a hard stop at 10 years. Why not "possibly ten > years of" > > > > OK > thanks > > > ABOUT > > the inter-working at the network > > COMMENTS > > a paragraph earlier the charter says there is no network layer. I > understand what you mean, I would just make sure this doesn't confuse peo= ple > > > > What about > > > > =E2=80=9C > > To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, ther= e > is a > > need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the > inter-working > > by introducing a network layer, and enable common components for > management and > > security, as well as shared application profiles. > > =E2=80=9C > perfect > OLD > > new standard track > > NEW > > new standards track > > > > What about > > =E2=80=9C > > and new standard work to optimize IPv6-based communications to > > the end device, down to the remote-I/O model where the device is not full= y > aware > > of the whole stack. > > =E2=80=9C > perfect > OLD > > highlights actual needs > > NEW > > highlight actual needs > > > > Yes > thanks > > > ABOUT > > the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to describe the > compression > > COMMENT > > I agree that the work item is important, but I don't see how the YANG > formalism is useful for describing compression > > > > > > > > Because we need to publish a compression state into the =E2=80= =9CGW=E2=80=9D as > opposed to learn it like RoHC does=E2=80=A6 > OK > > > > > Thanks for all Thomas! > thanks!! > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < > pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > > <6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks". > > > > Background/Introduction: > > ------------------------ > > > > A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic > name of > > Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which > make > > these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things > applications. > > > > Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation over a simple > star > > topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted a few > times per > > day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an equally massive > opportunity, a > > transmission pattern which is generally upstream and allows the devices t= o > stay > > longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode. > > > > This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, > with up > > to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple > and > > scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures. > > > > Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and > specific > > to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the > application is > > often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be > managed, > > secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to > another > > implies rebuilding the whole chain. > > > > To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, ther= e > is a > > need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the > inter-working > > at the network layer and enable common components for management and > security, > > as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by > enabling IPv6 > > connectivity to the devices, and propose technologies to secure the > operations > > and manage the devices and their gateways. > > > > Description of Working Group: > > ----------------------------- > > > > The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a > selection of > > Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, , and . > > > > These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely > unbalanced > > over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame > formats to > > accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) > cannot be > > trivially applied. > > > > The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated > set of > > stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real > demands > > and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. > > > > The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, > describing LPWA > > technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF > technologies > > in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, and new standard trac= k > work > > to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end device, down to the > remote-I/O > > model where the device itself is not fully aware of the whole stack. > > > > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet > Area, > > Operations and Management Area, and Security Area. > > > > Work Items: > > ----------- > > > > The group will: > > > > 1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating existing som= e > LPWA > > technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and > highlights > > actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to > provide a > > competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained there= in > > originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG ma= y > > leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs. > > > > 2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, > highlighting > > potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents > may > > eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that > the > > resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA > stakeholders > > and lead to additional work in the future. > > > > 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a > CoAP/UDP/IPv6 > > packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focu= s > on a > > generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to > install > > the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also > include, for > > the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe > how the > > fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any. > > > > 4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over > LPWA, > > either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new > Standard > > Track document if that is deemed necessary. > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________ > > > > Thomas Watteyne, PhD > > Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria > > Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech > > Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN > > Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH > > > > www.thomaswatteyne.com > > _______________________________________ > --=20 _______________________________________ Thomas Watteyne, PhD Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH www.thomaswatteyne.com _______________________________________ --001a113fb7fc398fbf053179a277 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
inline

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthube= rt@cisco.com> wrote:

Hello Thomas:

=C2=A0

GENERAL COMMENT

should the beginning of the charter discuss about c= apacity issues when lots of these long range devices are used in the same a= rea, if no coordination is done?

=C2=A0

<Pascal> There = are things around to address capacity, like power management, and more can = be brought in, like scheduling. There is some coordination, and again more could be brought in. Adding those topics may work but may c= reate lengthy discussions which will better fit an installed structure.


ok
=C2=A0

ABOUT

Those common traits include an optimized radio modu= lation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes= transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an e= qually massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally upstream an= d allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.=

COMMENTS

- we might want to remove "over a simple star = topology", or just say "generally over a simple star topology&quo= t;

- is "tens of bytes" true? aren't we = dealing with <10 bytes in some of the technologies considered?=

=C2=A0

<Pascal>= We are just giving an order. WISA can be down to 1 byte but then that=E2= =80=99s hardly Long Range : )

What about:

=E2=80=9C

Those com= mon traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical deployment

as a simp= le star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted<= /u>

a few tim= es per day, and, though downstream may be supported, a mostly upstream

transmiss= ion pattern that allows the devices to spend most of their time in

low-energy deep-sleep mode.=

=E2=80=9C


looks good!
=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

ABOUT

This enables a range in tens of kilometers

COMMENTS

Tens of km means at least 20, which might be a stre= tch, especially in non-LOS environments. Why not "This enables a range= of several kilometers"?

=C2=A0

<Pascal> Depend= s on the PHY, and the environment. I can go with that proposal but let=E2= =80=99s see how others react when I publish.

<= /div>

eager to see the reaction=
=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0ABOUT

up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell<= u>

COMMENTS

"up to" suggests there is a hard stop at = 10 years. Why not "possibly ten years of"

=C2=A0

<Pascal> OK


thanks
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

ABOUT

the inter-working at the network

COMMENTS

a paragraph earlier the charter says there is no ne= twork layer. I understand what you mean, I would just make sure this doesn&= #39;t confuse people

=C2=A0

<Pascal> What a= bout

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

To unleash the full pow= er of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them wit= h other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-working

by introducing a= network layer, and enable common components for management and

security, as well as shared application profiles.

=E2=80=9C

=

perfect
=C2=A0

OLD

new standard track

NEW

new standards track

=C2=A0

<Pascal> What a= bout

=E2=80=9C

and new standard work t= o optimize IPv6-based communications to

the end device, down to= the remote-I/O model where the device is not fully aware

of the whole stack.

=E2=80=9C

<= /blockquote>

perfect
=C2=A0
<= div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4= .0pt">

OLD

highlights actual needs

NEW

highlight actual needs

=C2=A0

<Pascal> Yes


thanks
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

ABOUT

the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to= describe the compression

COMMENT

I agree that the work item is important, but I don&= #39;t see how the YANG formalism is useful for describing compression

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Pascal> Becaus= e we=C2=A0 need to publish a compression state into the =E2=80=9CGW=E2=80= =9D as opposed to learn it like RoHC does=E2=80=A6

<= /div>

OK
=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks for all Thomas!

=


thanks!!
<= div>=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert (pt= hubert) <pthuber= t@cisco.com> wrote:

<6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area = networks".

=C2=A0

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

=C2=A0

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerg= ed under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common= characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Intern= et of Things applications.

=C2=A0

Those common traits include an optimized radio modu= lation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes= transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an e= qually massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally upstream an= d allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.=

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a l= ong battery lifetime, with up

to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. Th= is also enables simple and

scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin= infrastructures.

=C2=A0

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer forma= ts are optimized and specific

to each individual technology. There is no network = layer and the application is

often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed depl= oyments that must be managed,

secured and operated individually. Migrating from o= ne LPWA technology to another

implies rebuilding the whole chain.

=C2=A0

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and = their ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them with other ecosystems that will= guarantee the inter-working

at the network layer and enable common components f= or management and security,

as well as shared application profiles. The IETF ca= n contribute by enabling IPv6

connectivity to the devices, and propose technologi= es to secure the operations

and manage the devices and their gateways.

=C2=A0

Description of Working Group:<= /p>

-----------------------------<= /p>

=C2=A0

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 conne= ctivity over a selection of

Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, &l= t;Tech2> and <Tech3>.

=C2=A0

These technologies present similar characteristics = of rare and widely unbalanced

over-the-air transmissions, with little capability = to alter the frame formats to

accommodate this work, which makes it so that exist= ing IETF work (6lo) cannot be

trivially applied.

=C2=A0

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation= with the associated set of

stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place c= orresponds to real demands

and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicab= le.

=C2=A0

The group will produce informational work, for IETF= consumption, describing LPWA

technologies and their needs, best practice documen= ts on using IETF technologies

in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities,= and new standard track work

to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end de= vice, down to the remote-I/O

model where the device itself is not fully aware of= the whole stack.

=C2=A0

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups= in the IETF Internet Area,

Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.<= u>

=C2=A0

Work Items:

-----------

=C2=A0

The group will:

=C2=A0

1. Produce an Informational document describing and= relating existing some LPWA

technologies. This work will document the common ch= aracteristics and highlights

actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is n= ot an intention to provide a

competitive analysis. It is expected that the infor= mation contained therein

originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholder= s, and that this WG may

leverage the resulting document to suggest new acti= vity in other WGs.

=C2=A0

2. Produce best practice documents for security and= management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be leve= raged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It i= s an expectation that the

resulting document(s) may contribute to the interac= tion with LPWA stakeholders

and lead to additional work in the future.

=C2=A0

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the c= ompression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6

packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constrain= ts, the work will focus on a

generic YANG data model to describe the compression= , and protocols to install

the related state at the compression end-points; th= e work will also include, for

the selected technologies, specific Standard Track = documents to describe how the

fields relevant to the decompression are encoded ov= er the air, if any.

=C2=A0

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation o= f larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techn= ology, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.<= u>


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

=C2=A0


=C2=A0

--

_______________________________________<= /u>

=C2=A0

Thomas Watteyne, PhD

Research Scientist & Innovator, Inria

Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech

Founder & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN<= u>

Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH<= /p>

=C2=A0

_______________________________________<= /u>




--
_______________________= ________________

Thomas Watteyne, PhD
Research Scientist= & Innovator, Inria
Sr Networking Design Eng, Linear Tech
Found= er & co-lead, UC Berkeley OpenWSN
Co-chair, IETF 6TiSCH

www.thomaswat= teyne.com
_______________________________________
--001a113fb7fc398fbf053179a277-- From nobody Thu Apr 28 01:27:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF9412B021 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 01:27:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u3m-Cd4FTxS1 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 01:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-143.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-143.mimecast.com [207.82.80.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B7F412D097 for ; 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Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:27:39 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: Michael Richardson , "lp-wan@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers Thread-Index: AQHRn8XpUA09v0/8oE+tq5KDL2bG4J+fDzkA Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:27:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <17321.1461613690@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5ac260f3ca48454185f3073d1ff8c0e7@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <31743.1461680042@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <31743.1461680042@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [80.92.119.69] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fbdef9e8-0b17-4d1c-167b-08d36f3ef5df x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VI1PR08MB1102; 5:W1U54fjVozqdZndAIu4VqHmxwnj/DxAH/hDfFc9u46HLGcw5G9bjJHTR6rrW3+fxRH/dq9nBzy65Fz5eao80Gt5PNWTut0pYuIaNG9mDLHQvNATL+O30C2N/OU48wr/v2R0jMR8IdOI6eDXmLnxkXA==; 24:aPcvP/D6R0m+sMYDCW4aQX4PfFj0PqvvXUNBMVCt5w+pYTOpIR1iEbHMyV452W8qZu6VOjtNRv1Ogz/R2lWJWybZjM4IVwgDUhxsJbmgLqs=; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR08MB1102; H:VI1PR08MB1101.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Apr 2016 08:27:39.1659 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR08MB1102 X-MC-Unique: 4_Byu4XcSnCTBp11Jb2UCA-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:27:47 -0000 Good analysis, Michael. It would definitely be useful to reach out to various chip manufacturers to= see what their needs are. Of course, those may change over time but I coul= d imagine there is a lot to learn from such an interaction. I am just wonde= ring who could actually do such outreach (since you need to have contact pe= rsons with chip manufacturers in the first place). Ciao Hannes -----Original Message----- From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richards= on Sent: 26 April 2016 16:14 To: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of name= s. I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants. It's appr= opriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced IETF peo= ple about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems like that's all= we are hearing. I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN make= rs. I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF "side" of IoT an= d that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources to = spend on this. Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing the = LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are stormin= g the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable. In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to inter= operate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not engage very well without side entities. And that's when we have, in theor= y, an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets. With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 through= 5 with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the market push = interoperation here at all. Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware. I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is really = participating? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:52:14 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:51:59 +0800 From: "qinxiaowei@cnnic.cn" To: "pthubert@cisco.com" X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7, 2, 5, 136[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2016042816515924451525@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart467653667168_=----" X-CM-TRANSID: AQAAf0B5gDg+zyFXw2BfCQ--.144S2 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1UD129KBjDUn29KB7ZKAUJUUUUU529EdanIXcx71UUUUU7v73 VFW2AGmfu7bjvjm3AaLaJ3UjIYCTnIWjp_UUUow7k0a2IF6w4kM7kC6x804xWl14x267AK xVWUJVW8JwAFc2x0x2IEx4CE42xK8VAvwI8IcIk0rVWrJVCq3wAFIxvE14AKwVWUJVWUGw A2ocxC64kIII0Yj41l84x0c7CEw4AK67xGY2AK021l84ACjcxK6xIIjxv20xvE14v26F1j 6w1UM28EF7xvwVC0I7IYx2IY6xkF7I0E14v26F4j6r4UJwA2z4x0Y4vEx4A2jsIE14v26r xl6s0DM28EF7xvwVC2z280aVCY1x0267AKxVW0oVCq3wAS0I0E0xvYzxvE52x082IY62kv 0487Mc02F40En4AKxVAvwIkv4cxYr24l5I8CrVC2j2CEjI02ccxYII8I67AEr4CY67k08w Aqx4xG6I8I3I0E8cIF7480aVAKz4kxMcIj6xIIjxv20xvE14v26r1j6r18McIj6I8E87Iv 67AKxVWUJVW8JwAm72CE4IkC6x0Yz7v_Jr0_Gr1lF7xvr2IYc2Ij64vIr41lFcxC0VAYjx AxZF0Ew4CEw7xC0wACY4xI67k04243AVC20s07Mx8GjcxK6IxK0xIIj40E5I8CrwCY02Av z4vE14v_GFyl42xK82IYc2Ij64vIr41l4I8I3I0E4IkC6x0Yz7v_Jr0_Gr1lx2IqxVAqx4 xG67AKxVWUGVWUWwC20s026x8GjcxK67AKxVWUGVWUWwC2zVA0820Y0xCF62I06xkIj41l x4CE17CEb7AF67AKxVWUXVWUAwCIc40Y0x0EwIxGrwCI42IY6xIIjxv20xvE14v26r1j6r 1xMIIF0xvE2Ix0cI8IcVCY1x0267AKxVWUJVW8JwCI42IY6xAIw20EY4v20xvaj40_WFyU JVCq3wCI42IY6I8E87Iv67AKxVWUJVW8JwCI42IY6I8E87Iv6xkF7I0E14v26r1j6r4UMV CEFcxC0VAYjxAxZFUvcSsGvfC2KfnxnUUI43ZEXa7IUYs0etUUUUU== X-CM-SenderInfo: xtlq5x5drzvxw6fq0xffof0/ Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan Subject: [lp-wan] Some practical deployment experience of data aggregation in LP-WAN X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:52:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart467653667168_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGFzY2FsLA0KDQpJIGFtIHZlcnkgZ2xhZCB0byBpbnRyb2R1Y2UgbXkgZXhpc3RpbmcgZGVw bG95bWVudCBleHBlcmllbmNlIGFzIG1lbnRpb25lZCB5ZXN0ZXJkYXkuDQpTaW5jZSAyMDEyLCBJ IGhhdmUgYmVlbiBkZXBsb3lpbmcgaW50ZWxsaWdlbnQgYWdyaWN1bHR1cmFsIHN5c3RlbXMgZm9y IHNvbWUgZmFybXMuIEF0IGJlZ2lubmluZywgSSB1c2VkIENST1NTQk9XJ3Mgc2Vuc29ycyBhbmQg bm9kZXMsIG5vdyxJIGFsc28gdXNlIG90aGVyIGNvbXBhbnlzJyBwcm9kdWN0cy4gDQpJbiBlYWNo IGdyZWVuaG91c2UgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkgc2Vuc29ycyBzdWNoIGFzIHRlbXBlcmF0dXJlLCBo dW1pZGl0eSwgYW5kIG9uZSBDbHVzdGVyIEhlYWRlcihnYXRld2F5KS4gT25lIG9yIG1vcmUgc2Vu c29ycyB3ZXJlIGludGVncmF0ZWQgaW50byBvbmUgd2lyZWxlc3Mgbm9kZSB3aGljaCB3ZXJlIGNv bnRyb2xsZWQgYnkgVGlueU9TLiBTZW5zb3ItZ2VuZXJhdGUtZGF0YSBpcyBmaXJzdCB0cmFuc21p dHRlZCB0byB0aGUgQ2x1c3RlciBIZWFkZXIgYnkgd2lyZWxlc3Mgbm9kZSB2aWEgODAyLjE1LjQg cHJvdG9jb2wgYW5kIHByaXZhdGUgbWVzaCBwcm90b2NvbC4gVGhlIENsdXN0ZXIgSGVhZGVyIGZv cndhcmQgdGhlc2Ugc2Vuc29yLWdlbmVyYXRlLWRhdGEgdG8gYSBnYXRld2F5IHRocm91Z2ggVVNC IHBvcnQocGwyMzAzIG9yIEZUREkpLiBUaGUgZ2F0ZXdheSB3aWxsIHN0b3JlIHRoZXNlIGRhdGEg dGVtcG9yYXJpbHkgYW5kIHRoZW4gZW5jYXBzdWxhdGUgdGhlbSBpbnRvIGFuIGFnZ3JlZ2F0aW9u IGNoYWluIGFuZCBhdCB0aGUgbGFzdCBzZW5kIHRoZSBhZ2dyZWdhdGlvbiBjaGFpbiB0byBhY3R1 YWwgZGVzdGluYXRpb24gdGhyb3VnaCBXQ0RNQS4NCkJ5IGRvaW5nIHRoaXMsIGl0IHNpbXBsaWZ5 IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgdG8gbG93ZXIgdGhlIGNvc3QgYmVjYXVzZSBzb21l IGdyZWVuaG91c2VzIGNhbiBub3QgY29ubmVjdCB0byBpbnRlcm5ldCB0aHJvdWdoIHdpcmVkIGxp bmUuIEl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgd2FzdGUgb2YgYmFuZHdpZHRoIGlmIGluaXRpYXRlZCB0aGUgdHJh bnNtaXNzaW9uIGZvciBldmVyeSBzZW5zb3IncyBmcmFtZS4gQmVjYXVzZSBlYWNoIHNlbnNvci1n ZW5lcmF0ZS1kYXRhIGlzIHZlcnkgc21hbGw6IFRpbnlPUyBoZWFkZXIoNSBieXRlcyksIFhtZXNo IEhlYWRlcigwLzcgYnl0ZXMpLCBBZGRyZXNzIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGFuZCBTZXF1ZW5jZSBudW1i ZXIoOCBieXRlcyksIHBheWxvYWQoOCBieXRlcykuIFRoZXJlZm9yZSBhY2NvdW50cyB2ZXJ5IHNt YWxsIHByb3BvcnRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHdob2xlIFdDRE1BIHBhY2tldC4gDQpBY3R1YWxseSwgdGhh dCBkb2VzIG1ha2Ugc2Vuc2UgaW4gc29tZSBMVy1QQU4gc2NlbmFyaW9zOiBtYW55IHNlbnNvcnMg YnV0IGVhY2ggc2Vuc29yIGhhcyBsaW1pdCBudW1iZXIgb2YgZnJhbWVzIHBlciBkYXkuDQoNClJl Z2FyZHMNClhpYW93ZWkgUWluDQoNCg0KDQo= ------=_001_NextPart467653667168_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= body>=0A
Hi Pascal,

<= /span>
I am very glad to introduce my existing deployment e= xperience as mentioned yesterday.
Since 2012, I have been deploying intelligent= agricultural systems for some farms. At beginning, I used CROSSBOW's sens= ors and nodes, now,I also use other companys' products. =0A
In each gre= enhouse there are many sensors such as temperature, humidity, and one Clus= ter Header(gateway). One or more sensors were integrated into one wireless= node which were controlled by TinyOS. Sensor-generate-data is first trans= mitted to the Cluster Header by wireless node via 802.15.4 protocol and pr= ivate mesh protocol. The Cluster Header forward these sensor-generate-data= to a gateway through USB port(pl2303 or FTDI). The gateway will store the= se data temporarily and then encapsulate them into an aggregation chain an= d at the last send the aggregation chain to actual destination through WCD= MA.
By doing this, it simplify implementat= ion as well as to lower the cost because some greenhouses can not connect = to internet through wired line. It would be a waste of bandwidth if initia= ted the transmission for every sensor's frame. Because each sensor-generat= e-data is very small: TinyOS header(5 bytes), Xmesh Header(0/7 bytes), Add= ress information and Sequence number(8 bytes), payload(8 bytes). Therefore= accounts very small proportion of the whole WCDMA packet. 
Actually, that does make sens= e in some LW-PAN scenarios: many sensors but each sensor has limit number = of frames per day.

Regards
Xiaowei Qin
=0A

=0A
=0A ------=_001_NextPart467653667168_=------ From nobody Thu Apr 28 03:04:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5072312D0A4 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p_W0tr0ppQXd for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8273C12B01E for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:e35:2f28:4300:a5ba:5ab5:a097:abb5] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e35:2f28:4300:a5ba:5ab5:a097:abb5]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 421A1A8136; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:04:23 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_44B43D7C-74DE-4CCE-BDF9-993D762C97EE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:04:52 +0200 Message-Id: <5458752A-18BF-4B8F-9304-0F4AE0029C94@ackl.io> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <17321.1461613690@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5ac260f3ca48454185f3073d1ff8c0e7@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <31743.1461680042@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:04:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_44B43D7C-74DE-4CCE-BDF9-993D762C97EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Hannes, Michael, Thanks for bringing this subject. It is indeed very important to have = the technology stakeholders to participate actively. We want to solve = *real* issues and this requires *real* engagement from technology = providers. The chip manufacturers are working with solution providers and telecom = operators (such as SIGFOX), or are part of alliances (such as Lora = Alliance). They also participate in SDOs, such as IEEE. All three = organizations have expressed interest in the mailing list. Several = others are following closely the discussion, and have also expressed = interest. We have set the charter with three technology placeholders and we have = set the end of May as a deadline for formal engagement from the = potential institutions. Having a formal engagement does require = synchronization among the stakeholders, and this takes time. (Pascal = sent the official invitation in the beginning of the week) I am in complete agreement with you. We don=E2=80=99t want to take = energy away from other groups. This is one of the reasons we are going = for a new group - so that new contributors can easily identify the place = here LPWA work happens and can come (independently on the layer they are = working on).=20 Best, Alexander PS. Just to bring a short clarification, and only because Michael mentioned = it. ACKLIO is a pure software company. We are working with several = hardware providers (end-devices, gateways, chip manufacturers), all of = which want to see IP in LPWAs. > Le 28 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 10:27, Hannes Tschofenig = a =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Good analysis, Michael. >=20 > It would definitely be useful to reach out to various chip = manufacturers to see what their needs are. Of course, those may change = over time but I could imagine there is a lot to learn from such an = interaction. I am just wondering who could actually do such outreach = (since you need to have contact persons with chip manufacturers in the = first place). >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: 26 April 2016 16:14 > To: lp-wan@ietf.org > Subject: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers >=20 >=20 > Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of = names. > I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants. It's = appropriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced = IETF people about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems like = that's all we are hearing. >=20 > I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN = makers. I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF "side" of = IoT and that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited = resources to spend on this. >=20 > Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing = the LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are = storming the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable. >=20 > In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to = interoperate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not > engage very well without side entities. And that's when we have, in = theory, > an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available = chipsets. >=20 > With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 = through 5 with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the = market push interoperation here at all. >=20 > Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware. > I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is = really participating? >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works = -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan = --Apple-Mail=_44B43D7C-74DE-4CCE-BDF9-993D762C97EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Dear Hannes, Michael,

Thanks for bringing this subject. It is = indeed very important to have the technology stakeholders to participate = actively. We want to solve *real* issues and this requires *real* = engagement from technology providers.

The chip manufacturers are working with = solution providers and telecom operators (such as SIGFOX), or are part = of alliances (such as Lora Alliance). They also participate in SDOs, = such as IEEE. All three organizations have expressed interest in the = mailing list. Several others are following closely the discussion, and = have also expressed interest.

We have set the charter with three = technology placeholders and we have set the end of May as a deadline for = formal engagement from the potential institutions. Having a formal = engagement does require synchronization among the stakeholders, and this = takes time. (Pascal sent the official invitation in the beginning of the = week)

I am in = complete agreement with you. We don=E2=80=99t want to take energy away = from other groups. This is one of the reasons we are going for a new = group - so that new contributors can easily identify the place here LPWA = work happens and can come (independently on the layer they are working = on). 

Best,
Alexander

PS.
Just to bring = a short clarification, and only because Michael mentioned it. ACKLIO is = a pure software company. We are working with several hardware providers = (end-devices, gateways, chip manufacturers), all of which want to see IP = in LPWAs.



Le 28 avr. 2016 =C3=A0 10:27, Hannes = Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Good analysis, Michael.

It would definitely be useful to reach = out to various chip manufacturers to see what their needs are. Of = course, those may change over time but I could imagine there is a lot to = learn from such an interaction. I am just wondering who could actually = do such outreach (since you need to have contact persons with chip = manufacturers in the first place).

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: lp-wan [mailto:lp-wan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael = Richardson
Sent: 26 April 2016 16:14
To: lp-wan@ietf.org
Subject: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of = implementers


Looking at the thread from this week = charter v2,3,5, I see a number of names.
I see the majority of names are = long-standing IETF participants.  It's appropriate that when = building a charter that we hear from experienced IETF people about what = is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems like that's all we are = hearing.

I am concerned that we = don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN makers.  I'm = concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF "side" of IoT and that = we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources to = spend on this.

Or to put it differently: = given what I perceive as a lot money backing the LORA and other LP-WAN = stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are storming the IETF gates = for help to do doing something interoperable.

In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen = serious lack of actual attempts to interoperate --- most vendors are = used to the entire vertical and do not
engage very well without side entities. =   And that's when we have, in theory,
an interoperable layer-2 = (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets.

With LPWAN, we have market verticals = which seem to include layers 1 through 5 with little interest in any = commonality. I'm not seeing the market push interoperation here at = all.

Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building = actual hardware.
I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is = to know who else is really participating?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works =  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this = email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. = If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender = immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it = for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank = you.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing = list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

= --Apple-Mail=_44B43D7C-74DE-4CCE-BDF9-993D762C97EE-- From nobody Thu Apr 28 03:33:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lp-wan@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1E512D121 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:33:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=actility.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J82QLlBUMU2M for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x233.google.com (mail-vk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFCFF12D0EB for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id o133so26143271vka.3 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:32:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=actility.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=6/hI2UldEaPvZx7wztdK1r8/kyPDDMZvQV5cdlvYYh8=; b=LwLu8ADeQ4uWHodBfwCS+IHu8+VoorqVMgTJiXuW+RJWivcbQZDRji8bNw/kKl4INJ HDVqFvvHjVYih39gGStuFnKS4iz/4U82FuXI7SzrYTLWXYPcFpaTQfRTHKaZw4zeO6WB InMIIse9E0uNzocVfA8YQTeaS9cOAnkTX0uFM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=6/hI2UldEaPvZx7wztdK1r8/kyPDDMZvQV5cdlvYYh8=; b=mqiKY0qNc/TW5/zUfX3DOvQsDMZugYEIG6F0h61H8pso0BfLmK2oSsqZm4LP/bEpu5 qBv3Fz0Y/Hy2XBNPTKOC8ECWKOqs9yWp+SUW5COak5XShwYrH0HLmskAczYuV72n0u/o 2+Hr+lGrjJYYO74sMaPBptKzBMtUTEFKzt72UHyYant3vga+hjEbL3t2zwyBGmHfneaL 3fa73ameGN7TOS9MOIg2QG1/iJFOawr7KgfP0/jOdXanxv/Wx1tv5nhIqywDH24G2qK4 K7hQ313icqbnvkyJ2q/TXrQnvJxFQco4GtLu/iXKsG3hQey3FBb9TKdigi+BwZfgLJIj Qb+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUhqjf26USFzXW7ce+G7Y14zPO3nI1E4p0z4CWrA7XFHD8X3v+rXKqHYBwjF9Fq+0p0bNWRHROR7yJcRtak MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.159.55.204 with SMTP id q70mr7265504uaq.90.1461839578842; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.40.6 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 03:32:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <31743.1461680042@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <9bfc6bcdcc164b30b61b667c90a0f3b9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <17321.1461613690@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5ac260f3ca48454185f3073d1ff8c0e7@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <31743.1461680042@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:32:58 +0300 Message-ID: From: Alper Yegin To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c04cbfad0da110531890cc9 Archived-At: Cc: lp-wan@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lp-wan] lp-wan -- critical mass of implementers X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:33:02 -0000 --94eb2c04cbfad0da110531890cc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Michael, > Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of > names. > I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants. While I do qualify for that, my involvement in this discussion is from the other side of the fence, as a member of Actility (a founding member of the LoRa Alliance). I'm also active in the LoRa Alliance. I can tell you that there is interest among the members to evaluate this work. I'll be arranging a call among them to have a discussion around it. At the end of the day, whether this work will be consumed by the Alliance or its individual members depend on the final scope of the work and the deliverables. Which are all open now and that's what we are discussing. Speaking on behalf of my own company, I can say we are interested enough to spend cycles on participating in the scope discussion. And probably that's all anyone can say at this point anyways. Hope this helps. Alper > It's > appropriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced > IETF people about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems like > that's all we are hearing. > > I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN > makers. I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF "side" of > IoT > and that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources > to > spend on this. > > Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing the > LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are > storming the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable. > > In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to > interoperate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not > engage very well without side entities. And that's when we have, in > theory, > an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets. > > With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 > through 5 > with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the market push > interoperation here at all. > > Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware. > I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is > really participating? > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lp-wan mailing list > lp-wan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan > > -- Alper E. Yegin *Head of Standards, Actility* *Chair of Security Task Force, LoRa Alliance* *Vice-Chair of Strategy Committee, LoRa Alliance* --94eb2c04cbfad0da110531890cc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,


Looking at the thread from this week charter v2,3,5, I see a number of name= s.
I see the majority of names are long-standing IETF participants.=C2=A0

While I do qualify for that, my involvement in= this discussion is from the other side of the fence, as a member of Actili= ty (a founding member of the LoRa Alliance).=C2=A0

I'm also active in the LoRa Alliance. I can tell you that there is int= erest among the members to evaluate this work. I'll be arranging a call= among them to have a discussion around it. At the end of the day, whether = this work will be consumed by the Alliance or its individual members depend= on the final scope of the work and the deliverables. Which are all open no= w and that's what we are discussing. Speaking on behalf of my own compa= ny, I can say we are interested enough to spend cycles on participating in = the scope discussion. And probably that's all anyone can say at this po= int anyways.

Hope this helps.

=
Alper









=C2=A0
It's
appropriate that when building a charter that we hear from experienced
IETF people about what is possible, but I'm concerned that it seems lik= e
that's all we are hearing.

I am concerned that we don't have enough participation from the LP-WAN<= br> makers.=C2=A0 I'm concerned that we have the same faces on the IETF &qu= ot;side" of IoT
and that we are burning them out, and that the IETF has limited resources t= o
spend on this.

Or to put it differently: given what I perceive as a lot money backing the<= br> LORA and other LP-WAN stuff, it doesn't seem like those vendors are
storming the IETF gates for help to do doing something interoperable.

In the ROLL/LLN space we have seen serious lack of actual attempts to
interoperate --- most vendors are used to the entire vertical and do not engage very well without side entities.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And that's when we = have, in theory,
an interoperable layer-2 (802.15.4) with a number of available chipsets.
With LPWAN, we have market verticals which seem to include layers 1 through= 5
with little interest in any commonality. I'm not seeing the market push=
interoperation here at all.

Of those active, only ackl.io seems to be building actual hardware.
I naturally could be wrong, but my goal here is to know who else is
really participating?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




--
Alper E. Yegi= n
Head of Standards, Actility
Chair of Security Task Force, LoRa Alliance
Vice-Chair of Strategy Committee, LoRa = Alliance


=
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=?utf-8?B?Sm9uYXRoYW4gTXXDsW96?= Thread-Topic: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 Thread-Index: AdGeOGu+nZV5HA0QSp+ZnWYHD7MFjgAAEuWQAAvHrQAACgZC4P//u1GAgABRq8D//72cgIAARxSAgAAJxgCAAOqfgIAAUn4w//+0mgCAAE9RsP//uHCAAADgwIAABkdVUAAAnk8AAAo9INsACWmtgAAcm3DAACqhcYD//YMJkA== Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:27:12 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:27:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3e4fa8adec6043d591e68c5827b28c0b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <571CE612.20605@tzi.org> <571CEFBB.3010401@tzi.org> <4aa991e839d643df8808ac6aa1ad7af6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <571CFC8B.2020802@tzi.org> <45F0C77F-6161-4E97-9604-843E75212507@ieee.org> <571D405E.7020105@tzi.org> <514898ed-40f8-522b-fc5d-4649cc9ff29a@kcl.ac.uk> <2fac19e844cf4a0596e8b9c86c2a523c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <96d86423-bd45-53ec-684a-14d97cb9309f@kcl.ac.uk> <4d2b885f72554a4ab03ae073549c6d09@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <2E91F22D-AFB5-42D3-BB04-6D6448B5CAF8@cisco.com> <830617ff353b4da1bde2745c9e179679@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3e4fa8adec6043d591e68c5827b28c0bXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Mischa Dohler , "Paul Duffy \(paduffy\)" , Laurent Toutain , Alexander Pelov , "lp-wan@ietf.org" , Carsten Bormann , Juan Carlos Zuniga Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2 X-BeenThere: lp-wan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Low-Power Wide Area Networking \(LP-WAN\), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN \(LR-WAN\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 07:27:31 -0000 --_000_3e4fa8adec6043d591e68c5827b28c0bXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gU2FtaXRhOg0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGJlbG93IGluLWxpbmU6DQoNCg0KTXkgdGFrZSBp 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- is "tens of bytes" true? aren&= #39;t we dealing with <10 bytes in some of the technologies considered?<= /div>

ABOUT
This enables a range in tens = of kilometers
COMMENTS
Tens of km means at least = 20, which might be a stretch, especially in non-LOS environments. Why not &= quot;This enables a range of several kilometers"?

=
ABOUT
up to ten years of operation on a single coin-cel= l
COMMENTS
"up to" suggests there is a = hard stop at 10 years. Why not "possibly ten years of"
=
ABOUT
the inter-working at the network
<= /div>
COMMENTS
a paragraph earlier the charter says there is = no network layer. I understand what you mean, I would just make sure this d= oesn't confuse people

OLD
new standa= rd track
NEW
new standards track

=
OLD
highlights actual needs
NEW
highlight actual needs

ABOUT
the work will focus on a generic YANG data model to describe the com= pression
COMMENT
I agree that the work item is im= portant, but I don't see how the YANG formalism is useful for describin= g compression

Thomas


=





On Mon, Apr 25, 2016= at 7:13 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>= wrote:

<6LPWA>: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area n= etworks".

=C2=A0

Background/Introduction:

------------------------

=C2=A0

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerge= d under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common = characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Interne= t of Things applications.

=C2=A0

Those common traits include an optimized radio modul= ation over a simple star

topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes = transmitted a few times per

day, and, though downstream may be emerging as an eq= ually massive opportunity, a

transmission pattern which is generally upstream and= allows the devices to stay

longer in low-energy deep-sleep mode.<= /p>

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a lo= ng battery lifetime, with up

to ten years of operation on a single coin-cell. Thi= s also enables simple and

scalable deployments with low-cost devices and thin = infrastructures.

=C2=A0

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer format= s are optimized and specific

to each individual technology. There is no network l= ayer and the application is

often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deplo= yments that must be managed,

secured and operated individually. Migrating from on= e LPWA technology to another

implies rebuilding the whole chain.

=C2=A0

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and t= heir ecosystems, there is a

need to couple them with other ecosystems that will = guarantee the inter-working

at the network layer and enable common components fo= r management and security,

as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can= contribute by enabling IPv6

connectivity to the devices, and propose technologie= s to secure the operations

and manage the devices and their gateways.=

=C2=A0

Description of Working Group:

-----------------------------

=C2=A0

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connec= tivity over a selection of

Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <= ;Tech2> and <Tech3>.

=C2=A0

These technologies present similar characteristics o= f rare and widely unbalanced

over-the-air transmissions, with little capability t= o alter the frame formats to

accommodate this work, which makes it so that existi= ng IETF work (6lo) cannot be

trivially applied.

=C2=A0

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation = with the associated set of

stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place co= rresponds to real demands

and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicabl= e.

=C2=A0

The group will produce informational work, for IETF = consumption, describing LPWA

technologies and their needs, best practice document= s on using IETF technologies

in LPWA networks directed to the selected entities, = and new standard track work

to optimize IPv6-based communications to the end dev= ice, down to the remote-I/O

model where the device itself is not fully aware of = the whole stack.

=C2=A0

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups = in the IETF Internet Area,

Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

=C2=A0

Work Items:

-----------

=C2=A0

The group will:

=C2=A0

1. Produce an Informational document describing and = relating existing some LPWA

technologies. This work will document the common cha= racteristics and highlights

actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is no= t an intention to provide a

competitive analysis. It is expected that the inform= ation contained therein

originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders= , and that this WG may

leverage the resulting document to suggest new activ= ity in other WGs.

=C2=A0

2. Produce best practice documents for security and = management, highlighting

potential areas where IETF technologies may be lever= aged; these documents may

eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is= an expectation that the

resulting document(s) may contribute to the interact= ion with LPWA stakeholders

and lead to additional work in the future.=

=C2=A0

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the co= mpression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6

packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraint= s, the work will focus on a

generic YANG data model to describe the compression,= and protocols to install

the related state at the compression end-points; the= work will also include, for

the selected technologies, specific Standard Track d= ocuments to describe how the

fields relevant to the decompression are encoded ove= r the air, if any.

=C2=A0

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of= larger packets over LPWA,

either as a Best Practice leveraging existing techno= logy, or as new Standard

Track document if that is deemed necessary.


_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 1:54 PM= , Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr> wrote:
+1 for the downstream com= ment.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Xavier V= ilajosana <xvilajosana@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:=
+1 for downstream = as well.

I would say=C2=A0
"ten= years" instead of 10 years.

Xavi



2016-04-25 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mischa Dohler <mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk>:
=20 =20 =20
Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying

Mischa.


On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Trying; what about:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= u>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:windowtext"> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &= lt;pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cab= o@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga = <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) &l= t;paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <= a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal= ,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 an= y suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; = lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@= ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
              
=C2=A0

              
Prof Mischa Dohler

              
Head, Centre for Telecom Research

              
Chair Professor, King's College London=


              
Board of Directors, Worldsensing

              
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT

              
Fellow, IEEE

              
=C2=A0

              
www.mischadohler.com

              
______________________________________
              

                
On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten
                  Bormann wrote:

              

              

                
While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "L=
LN"? This is

                
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-W=
AN people are

                
actually trying to do.

              

              
=C2=A0

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan



On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2= :46 PM, Mischa Dohler <mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:=
=20 =20 =20
Very good! Thanks, Pascal.

PS: I don't want to stir troubles here but I see downstream (actuators, drones, robots, mems telemetry, etc) as an equally massive opportunity which is slowly emerging. Unless the emphasis has to be on upstream here (I have skipped a few email exchanges over past weeks so apologies if I may have missed that discussion), we could maybe remove " data collection". #justsaying

Mischa.


On 25/04/2016 13:42, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Trying; what about:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of

Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make

these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things data collection

applications.

=C2=A0

Those common family traits include frame sizes in tens of bytes and the order of

a few transmissions per day, a mostly upstream transmission pattern over a basic

star topology, and an optimized radio modulation.

=C2=A0

This enables a range in tens of kilometers, and a long battery lifetime, with 10

years of operation on a single coin-cell. This also simplifies the deployment at

a huge scale, and enables low costs for devices, infrastructure, and operations.

=C2=A0

<=E2=80=A6>

=E2=80=9C

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= /span>

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 14:19
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &= lt;pthubert@cisco.com>; Carsten Bormann <cab= o@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga = <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) &l= t;paduffy@cisco.com>; lp-wan@ietf.org; Alexander Pelov <= a@ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

Dear Pascal,

Could we just not use it at all? Carsten I believe proposed dropping the term instead of using a substitute.

(If all fails, using it is not the end of the world ...)

Thanks and with kind regards, Mischa.

On 25/04/2016 13:02, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Mischa:

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m getting a strong sense here, but then, what would we use instead? You know from your ROLL years that LLN is a consecrated term at the IETF for IOT links.

I can see WSN, =E2=80=9Clow power radio=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 an= y suggestion?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

From: Mischa Dohler [mailto:mischa.dohler@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: lundi 25 avril 2016 13:53
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>
Cc: Paul Duffy (paduffy) <paduffy@cisco.com>; = lp-wan@ietf.org; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Alexander Pelov <a@= ackl.io>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v2

=C2=A0

+1

______________________________________
              
=C2=A0

              
Prof Mischa Dohler

              
Head, Centre for Telecom Research

              
Chair Professor, King's College London=


              
Board of Directors, Worldsensing

              
Editor-in-Chief, ETT & IoT

              
Fellow, IEEE

              
=C2=A0

              
www.mischadohler.com

              
______________________________________
              

                
On 24/04/2016 22:53, Carsten
                  Bormann wrote:

              

              

                
While we are debating terms, can we get rid of "L=
LN"? This is

                
neither well-defined, nor does it fit to what the LP-W=
AN people are

                
actually trying to do.

              

              
=C2=A0

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
lp-wan@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan




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