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From: "Ali C. Begen" In-Reply-To: <6D0E7991-96E1-4394-84D7-D4E3BDDDBFBE@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:11:38 +0300 Cc: "sanjay.mishra=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Leslie Daigle , "mops@ietf.org" , "ggie@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <76DEB7E9-5E0F-4306-9975-7285D8EB51BC@thinkingcat.com> <6D0E7991-96E1-4394-84D7-D4E3BDDDBFBE@cisco.com> To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 16:11:47 -0000 Hi Eric I will bite first. I am fairly interested and willing to contribute to = the MOPS (if it takes off).=20 Having said that, I have a number of high-level comments on the scope = and charter: 1) Soliciting input from other organizations: Is this supposed to be = thru liaisons? We all know how slow that process is and usually takes = several months before it can be sent/received due to different meeting = cycles. Or do we expect people from all the relevant organizations to be = on the MOPS list and communicate more quickly? The latter would be = nicer, but most organizations do not liaise/communicate that way. 2) Input from network operators: Besides the well-known common problems, = I don=E2=80=99t think we can expect any operator to report its = operational excellence or operational failures. Or do we expect that? 3) Issues and opportunities in media acquisition and delivery. This came = up in the meeting, though I don=E2=80=99t recall which aspects of media = acquisition would be within the scope. Similarly, I don=E2=80=99t = understand well enough to comment on 4/ and 5/ below (like operation of = media technologies in the global Internet). What are the media = technologies that are referred to here and what do we mean by their = operation in the global Internet? Yes, most of the Internet traffic is = video today, but most of that video is not going around the globe to be = delivered, at least not in that amount. Replication/fanout is pretty = close to the edge. To me, that part of the network is more challenging = than the core. I also agree that IETF protocols should be dealt with in their = respective working groups. HTTP is popularly used to carry video, and = that belongs to the HTTP working group but then maybe it would be a good = idea to provide a guidelines document on how to use HTTP caching for = video delivery in the MOPS WG. Input from CDN and SP folks would = certainly be useful to collect and document, assuming they are willing = to share their knowledge. I have a few other comments, but I hope this will stir up some = discussion. -acbegen > On Sep 5, 2019, at 2:34 PM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: >=20 > [Adding the old GGIE mailing list as perhaps some GGIE members did not = switch/join the MOPS mailing list] > =20 > As the potential Area Director supporting a potential MOPS Working = Group, I must: > =E2=80=A2 Thank Sanjay for his support (and comment) > =E2=80=A2 Wonder whether other group members are still = supporting this MOPS effort? > =20 > About 2) May be some members are not fully aware of IETF rules / = processes, but, having only one reply for a charter review is not a good = sign as it does not indicate a high level of support. > =20 > Can people interested in MOPS review the charter (see below) and = approve it? or suggest changes ? Or disapprove completely ? > =20 > Please reply to all > =20 > Regards > =20 > -=C3=A9ric > =20 > From: Mops on behalf of = "sanjay.mishra=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" = > Date: Friday, 30 August 2019 at 16:14 > To: Leslie Daigle , "mops@ietf.org" = > Subject: Re: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG > =20 > Hi Leslie =E2=80=93 The proposed charter looks good. I just have a = comment RE need of clarity on the text =E2=80=9Cor networks are = inadequate to meet these updated requirements=E2=80=9D.=20 > =20 > Otherwise, the charter seems consistent with the discussions during = the BOF. > =20 > Thanks > Sanjay > =20 > =20 > From: Mops [mailto:mops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Daigle > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:22 AM > To: mops@ietf.org > Subject: [E] [Mops] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG > =20 > Hi, >=20 > The two clear takeaways I had from the MOPS bof at IETF 105 were that = there is interest in =E2=80=9Cthis area of work=E2=80=9D and that the = proposed charter was not nearly crisp enough to agree on what the area = of work was, or the specific things to be done. >=20 > As I said in the meeting, the challenge in trying to be crisp by = narrowing the focus is that we actually need a rather broad = =E2=80=9Ccatchment=E2=80=9D area, specifically pulling in things from = several areas within the IETF and being open to input from other = organizations. To achieve some level of sanity, I=E2=80=99ve attempted = to make things clearer by being more specific about the work to be done. = I=E2=80=99ve copied below an UPDATED proposed charter, that is aiming to = be at least a little more concrete. >=20 > Action items: >=20 > 1/ Please review the draft charter and provide feedback. (Yes, it = looks like the sort of thing you would like to see chartered; = suggestions for greater crispness, etc). >=20 > 2/ Of particular importance, we need more work items in the = Milestones. I told the ADs that I didn=E2=80=99t want to just write a = bunch of things and then try to badger people into working on them = (though I will if I have to :^) ). I=E2=80=99d rather have suggestions = from interested parties about the things they are willing to work on in = this area, or that they=E2=80=99d like to see done with a little help = from others. >=20 > Okay =E2=80=94 please comment. >=20 > Leslie. >=20 > =E2=80=948<=E2=80=94=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94 >=20 > Media OPS WG >=20 > Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading = to significant technology development across industries not = traditionally thought of as Internet technology developers or operators, = as well as considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit = networks. MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on identifying areas where existing = protocols and/or networks are inadequate to meet these updated = requirements. >=20 > [I would like to add that the issue is more than to meet these = =E2=80=9Cupdated=E2=80=9D requirements. In fact, I see MOPS to focus = specifically on how protocols coming out of the IETF =E2=80=9Cfactory=E2=80= =9D when used in =E2=80=9Creal-world=E2=80=9D may have implications = across the service delivery food chain. Some of the implications may be = by design or not as expected. MOPS will help bring operational issue = whether it relates to delivery of service using a protocol that is = efficient (or inefficient), or, is the network on which protocol is = running supporting the protocol =E2=80=9Cas-is=E2=80=9D or is there a = need for network operators adjust the network, or is there an issue for = UA conforming to delivery using a particular protocol.].=20 >=20 > Not necessarily suggesting above commentary as a substitute text as it = is not meant to be, but, a little more specificity will be helpful. I = know, you do go into that part of specificity in the next paragraph but = some up front clarity is useful. >=20 > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, existing = and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and = operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures = in the global Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. In = this case, media is considered to include the transport of video, audio, = objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. The = scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the = network, but not the technologies of control protocols or media formats. >=20 > The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using = technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the = existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in = sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS = acts as a clearinghouse to identify appropriate venues for further = protocol development, where necessary. >=20 > MOPS goals include documenting existing protocol and operational = issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for = potential IETF work. >=20 > To those ends, MOPS will: >=20 > 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing = consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. >=20 > 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify = operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and = determine solutions or workarounds to those issues. >=20 > 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and = opportunities in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting = innovations developed outside the IETF >=20 > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and = delivery. >=20 > 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media = technologies in the global Internet. >=20 > These activities should document media operational experience, = including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. >=20 > Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or = technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing = Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of = the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies. = However, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those areas/groups, = as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions = to MOPS operational and deployment problems. >=20 > Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working = Group only if there is a substantial expression of interest from the = community and if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. >=20 > There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working = Group to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer = sufficient interest in the Working Group in a work item, the item may be = removed from the list of Working Group items. >=20 > Milestones >=20 > July 2020 Taxonomy of Issues in Internet Media >=20 > >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Leslie Daigle > Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises >=20 > ldaigle@thinkingcat.com >=20 > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops From nobody Thu Sep 5 09:33:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55A0120849; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, 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id 2uqm81dg6v-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:32:59 -0400 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.104) by ustx2ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:32:58 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB4.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.134]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.134]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:32:58 -0500 From: "Holland, Jake" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , "sanjay.mishra=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Leslie Daigle , "mops@ietf.org" CC: "ggie@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari Thread-Topic: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG Thread-Index: AQHVXzypAyofUn4bB0qLvd8aLaJzjqcdcp0A//+8iIA= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:32:58 +0000 Message-ID: <1991BBD5-FC6F-43BD-B5D6-49156576A835@akamai.com> References: <76DEB7E9-5E0F-4306-9975-7285D8EB51BC@thinkingcat.com> <6D0E7991-96E1-4394-84D7-D4E3BDDDBFBE@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6D0E7991-96E1-4394-84D7-D4E3BDDDBFBE@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1c.0.190812 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.113.167] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <9D0FC12871B97F4A8DD1E20D816DF244@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-09-05_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1909050154 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-05_05:2019-09-04,2019-09-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909050157 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 16:33:13 -0000 SGksDQoNClNvcnJ5IGZvciB0aGUgc2xvdyByZXNwb25zZSwgSSd2ZSBnb3Qgc2V2ZXJhbCB0aGlu Z3MgZ29pbmcgb24sIGFuZCBteQ0KcmVzcG9uc2UgaXMgY29tcGxpY2F0ZWQuICBCdXQgSSBkbyBz dGlsbCBjYXJlLCBhbmQgSSBkbyBzdGlsbCBzdXBwb3J0DQpub3JtYWxpemluZyB0aGlzIGdyb3Vw 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potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:49:01 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: "Holland, Jake" , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , "mops@ietf.org" CC: "ggie@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Thread-Topic: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG Thread-Index: AQHVZBIzGfbGlYn28UuyeS5zpwN3Fw== Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:49:01 +0000 Message-ID: <2E365C06-943B-4093-8A05-F3290E60747A@nbcuni.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1c.0.190812 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [100.124.57.32] x-exclaimer-md-config: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 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Begen" Cc: "Eric Vyncke" , "Warren Kumari" , mops@ietf.org, sanjay.mishra=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org, ggie@ietf.org Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 15:28:30 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.5r5635) Message-ID: <519D0CB2-15C5-40E0-9761-2E66D331346B@thinkingcat.com> In-Reply-To: References: <76DEB7E9-5E0F-4306-9975-7285D8EB51BC@thinkingcat.com> <6D0E7991-96E1-4394-84D7-D4E3BDDDBFBE@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_9006F1BA-54B5-4176-9BEF-6C8C3294F00F_=" X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrudejjedguddutdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhvffufffokfgjfhggtgfgsegrkehmreertdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfnfgvshhlihgvucffrghighhlvgdfuceolhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepvdduiedrieeirddutddvrdekfeenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplgduledvrdduieekrddurdehjegnpdhinhgvthepvdduiedrieeirddutddvrdekfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthhepfdfnvghslhhivgcuffgrihhglhgvfdcuoehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [GGIE] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:29:02 -0000 --=_MailMate_9006F1BA-54B5-4176-9BEF-6C8C3294F00F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to provide a few answers, in-line, while I think Jake and Glenn=20 are articulating some of the more pressing strategic issues to resolve. On 5 Sep 2019, at 12:11, Ali C. Begen wrote: > Hi Eric > > I will bite first. I am fairly interested and willing to contribute to=20 > the MOPS (if it takes off). > > Having said that, I have a number of high-level comments on the scope=20 > and charter: > > 1) Soliciting input from other organizations: Is this supposed to be=20 > thru liaisons? We all know how slow that process is and usually takes=20 > several months before it can be sent/received due to different meeting=20 > cycles. Or do we expect people from all the relevant organizations to=20 > be on the MOPS list and communicate more quickly? The latter would be=20 > nicer, but most organizations do not liaise/communicate that way. I was certainly not thinking of formal liaisons =E2=80=94 recall, I was c= hair=20 of the IAB for 5 years, and have a very clear notion of just how well=20 those work. And, yet, I agree that all other organizations are not going to join a=20 WG mailing list so that they can share their individual views. However, my thinking was twofold: 1/ Putting that in the charter makes it clearer where people from other=20 organizations might find the relevant part of the IETF to come talk to. 2/ We can have informal updates from other organizations =E2=80=94 and, w= e=20 already have, between Sanjay=E2=80=99s contributions on work being done a= t=20 SVA, and the SMPTE perspective that Glenn shared. > > 2) Input from network operators: Besides the well-known common=20 > problems, I don=E2=80=99t think we can expect any operator to report it= s=20 > operational excellence or operational failures. Or do we expect that? Indeed, and I=E2=80=99m sure every involved operator has an excellent net= work.=20 However, time passes, things change, and I=E2=80=99ve certainly heard=20 operators express, in other contexts, things that would make their lives=20 easier or harder wrt a given technology. > > 3) Issues and opportunities in media acquisition and delivery. This=20 > came up in the meeting, though I don=E2=80=99t recall which aspects of = media=20 > acquisition would be within the scope. Similarly, I don=E2=80=99t under= stand=20 > well enough to comment on 4/ and 5/ below (like operation of media=20 > technologies in the global Internet). What are the media technologies=20 > that are referred to here and what do we mean by their operation in=20 > the global Internet? Yes, most of the Internet traffic is video today,=20 > but most of that video is not going around the globe to be delivered,=20 > at least not in that amount. Replication/fanout is pretty close to the=20 > edge. To me, that part of the network is more challenging than the=20 > core. Perhaps because I happen to live in places with ISPs too small to have=20 tight CDN attachments, I think it is too soon to give up on the=20 possibility of functional video across the core. > > I also agree that IETF protocols should be dealt with in their=20 > respective working groups. HTTP is popularly used to carry video, and=20 > that belongs to the HTTP working group but then maybe it would be a=20 > good idea to provide a guidelines document on how to use HTTP caching=20 > for video delivery in the MOPS WG. Sure. And maybe coordination of more video-specific requirements could=20 be done in MOPS to share with the HTTP wg. > Input from CDN and SP folks would certainly be useful to collect and=20 > document, assuming they are willing to share their knowledge. > > I have a few other comments, but I hope this will stir up some=20 > discussion. Likewise =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m mostly in listening mode. Leslie. > > -acbegen > > >> On Sep 5, 2019, at 2:34 PM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) =20 >> wrote: >> >> [Adding the old GGIE mailing list as perhaps some GGIE members did=20 >> not switch/join the MOPS mailing list] >> >> As the potential Area Director supporting a potential MOPS Working=20 >> Group, I must: >> =E2=80=A2 Thank Sanjay for his support (and comment) >> =E2=80=A2 Wonder whether other group members are still supporting thi= s=20 >> MOPS effort? >> >> About 2) May be some members are not fully aware of IETF rules /=20 >> processes, but, having only one reply for a charter review is not a=20 >> good sign as it does not indicate a high level of support. >> >> Can people interested in MOPS review the charter (see below) and=20 >> approve it? or suggest changes ? Or disapprove completely ? >> >> Please reply to all >> >> Regards >> >> -=C3=A9ric >> >> From: Mops on behalf of=20 >> "sanjay.mishra=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"=20 >> >> Date: Friday, 30 August 2019 at 16:14 >> To: Leslie Daigle , "mops@ietf.org"=20 >> >> Subject: Re: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG >> >> Hi Leslie =E2=80=93 The proposed charter looks good. I just have a com= ment=20 >> RE need of clarity on the text =E2=80=9Cor networks are inadequate to = meet=20 >> these updated requirements=E2=80=9D. >> >> Otherwise, the charter seems consistent with the discussions during=20 >> the BOF. >> >> Thanks >> Sanjay >> >> >> From: Mops [mailto:mops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Daigle >> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:22 AM >> To: mops@ietf.org >> Subject: [E] [Mops] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG >> >> Hi, >> >> The two clear takeaways I had from the MOPS bof at IETF 105 were that=20 >> there is interest in =E2=80=9Cthis area of work=E2=80=9D and that the = proposed=20 >> charter was not nearly crisp enough to agree on what the area of work=20 >> was, or the specific things to be done. >> >> As I said in the meeting, the challenge in trying to be crisp by=20 >> narrowing the focus is that we actually need a rather broad=20 >> =E2=80=9Ccatchment=E2=80=9D area, specifically pulling in things from = several=20 >> areas within the IETF and being open to input from other=20 >> organizations. To achieve some level of sanity, I=E2=80=99ve attempted= to=20 >> make things clearer by being more specific about the work to be done.=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve copied below an UPDATED proposed charter, that is aiming = to be=20 >> at least a little more concrete. >> >> Action items: >> >> 1/ Please review the draft charter and provide feedback. (Yes, it=20 >> looks like the sort of thing you would like to see chartered;=20 >> suggestions for greater crispness, etc). >> >> 2/ Of particular importance, we need more work items in the=20 >> Milestones. I told the ADs that I didn=E2=80=99t want to just write a = bunch=20 >> of things and then try to badger people into working on them (though=20 >> I will if I have to :^) ). I=E2=80=99d rather have suggestions from=20 >> interested parties about the things they are willing to work on in=20 >> this area, or that they=E2=80=99d like to see done with a little help = from=20 >> others. >> >> Okay =E2=80=94 please comment. >> >> Leslie. >> >> =E2=80=948<=E2=80=94=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94 >> >> Media OPS WG >> >> Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread,=20 >> leading to significant technology development across industries not=20 >> traditionally thought of as Internet technology developers or=20 >> operators, as well as considerable quantities of traffic on local and=20 >> transit networks. MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on identifying areas where=20 >> existing protocols and/or networks are inadequate to meet these=20 >> updated requirements. >> >> [I would like to add that the issue is more than to meet these=20 >> =E2=80=9Cupdated=E2=80=9D requirements. In fact, I see MOPS to focus s= pecifically=20 >> on how protocols coming out of the IETF =E2=80=9Cfactory=E2=80=9D when= used in=20 >> =E2=80=9Creal-world=E2=80=9D may have implications across the service = delivery=20 >> food chain. Some of the implications may be by design or not as=20 >> expected. MOPS will help bring operational issue whether it relates=20 >> to delivery of service using a protocol that is efficient (or=20 >> inefficient), or, is the network on which protocol is running=20 >> supporting the protocol =E2=80=9Cas-is=E2=80=9D or is there a need for= network=20 >> operators adjust the network, or is there an issue for UA conforming=20 >> to delivery using a particular protocol.]. >> >> Not necessarily suggesting above commentary as a substitute text as=20 >> it is not meant to be, but, a little more specificity will be=20 >> helpful. I know, you do go into that part of specificity in the next=20 >> paragraph but some up front clarity is useful. >> >> MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, existing=20 >> and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 >> operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and=20 >> procedures in the global Internet, inter-domain and single domain=20 >> networking. In this case, media is considered to include the=20 >> transport of video, audio, objects and any combination thereof,=20 >> possibly non-sequentially. The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80= =99=20 >> interactions with the network, but not the technologies of control=20 >> protocols or media formats. >> >> The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using=20 >> technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that=20 >> the existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are=20 >> developed in sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and=20 >> design. MOPS acts as a clearinghouse to identify appropriate venues=20 >> for further protocol development, where necessary. >> >> MOPS goals include documenting existing protocol and operational=20 >> issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for=20 >> potential IETF work. >> >> To those ends, MOPS will: >> >> 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing=20 >> consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. >> >> 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 >> operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and=20 >> determine solutions or workarounds to those issues. >> >> 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and=20 >> opportunities in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting=20 >> innovations developed outside the IETF >> >> 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and=20 >> delivery. >> >> 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 >> technologies in the global Internet. >> >> These activities should document media operational experience,=20 >> including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. >> >> Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 >> technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing=20 >> Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of=20 >> the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies.=20 >> However, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those=20 >> areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in=20 >> reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment problems. >> >> Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working=20 >> Group only if there is a substantial expression of interest from the=20 >> community and if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. >> >> There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working=20 >> Group to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer=20 >> sufficient interest in the Working Group in a work item, the item may=20 >> be removed from the list of Working Group items. >> >> Milestones >> >> July 2020 Taxonomy of Issues in Internet Media >> >> >> >> --=20 >> >> Leslie Daigle >> Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises >> >> ldaigle@thinkingcat.com >> >> --=20 >> Mops mailing list >> Mops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > > _______________________________________________ > GGIE mailing list > GGIE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_9006F1BA-54B5-4176-9BEF-6C8C3294F00F_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I want to provide a few answers, in-line, while I think J= ake and Glenn are articulating some of the more pressing strategic issues= to resolve.

On 5 Sep 2019, at 12:11, Ali C. Begen wrote:

H= i Eric

I will bite first. I am fairly interested and willing to contribute to th= e MOPS (if it takes off).

Having said that, I have a number of high-level comments on the scope and= charter:

1) Soliciting input from other organizations: Is this supposed to be thru= liaisons? We all know how slow that process is and usually takes several= months before it can be sent/received due to different meeting cycles. O= r do we expect people from all the relevant organizations to be on the MO= PS list and communicate more quickly? The latter would be nicer, but most= organizations do not liaise/communicate that way.

I was certainly not thinking of formal liaisons =E2=80=94= recall, I was chair of the IAB for 5 years, and have a very clear notion= of just how well those work.

And, yet, I agree that all other organizations are not go= ing to join a WG mailing list so that they can share their individual vie= ws.

However, my thinking was twofold:

1/ Putting that in the charter makes it clearer where peo= ple from other organizations might find the relevant part of the IETF to = come talk to.

2/ We can have informal updates from other organizations = =E2=80=94 and, we already have, between Sanjay=E2=80=99s contributions on= work being done at SVA, and the SMPTE perspective that Glenn shared.

=

2= ) Input from network operators: Besides the well-known common problems, I= don=E2=80=99t think we can expect any operator to report its operational= excellence or operational failures. Or do we expect that?

Indeed, and I=E2=80=99m sure every involved operator has = an excellent network. However, time passes, things change, and I=E2=80=99= ve certainly heard operators express, in other contexts, things that woul= d make their lives easier or harder wrt a given technology.

3= ) Issues and opportunities in media acquisition and delivery. This came u= p in the meeting, though I don=E2=80=99t recall which aspects of media ac= quisition would be within the scope. Similarly, I don=E2=80=99t understan= d well enough to comment on 4/ and 5/ below (like operation of media tech= nologies in the global Internet). What are the media technologies that ar= e referred to here and what do we mean by their operation in the global I= nternet? Yes, most of the Internet traffic is video today, but most of th= at video is not going around the globe to be delivered, at least not in t= hat amount. Replication/fanout is pretty close to the edge. To me, that p= art of the network is more challenging than the core.

Perhaps because I happen to live in places with ISPs too = small to have tight CDN attachments, I think it is too soon to give up on= the possibility of functional video across the core.

I= also agree that IETF protocols should be dealt with in their respective = working groups. HTTP is popularly used to carry video, and that belongs t= o the HTTP working group but then maybe it would be a good idea to provid= e a guidelines document on how to use HTTP caching for video delivery in = the MOPS WG.

Sure. And maybe coordination of more video-specific requ= irements could be done in MOPS to share with the HTTP wg.

I= nput from CDN and SP folks would certainly be useful to collect and docum= ent, assuming they are willing to share their knowledge.

I have a few other comments, but I hope this will stir up some discussion= =2E

Likewise =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m mostly in listening mode.<= /p>

Leslie.

-= acbegen

On Sep 5, 2= 019, at 2:34 PM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> wrote:
[Adding the old GGIE mailing list as perhaps some GGIE members did not sw= itch/join the MOPS mailing list]

As the potential Area Director supporting a potential MOPS Working Group,= I must:
=E2=80=A2 Thank Sanjay for his support (and comment)
=E2=80=A2 Wonder whether other group members are still supporting this M= OPS effort?

About 2) May be some members are not fully aware of IETF rules / processe= s, but, having only one reply for a charter review is not a good sign as = it does not indicate a high level of support.

Can people interested in MOPS review the charter (see below) and approve = it? or suggest changes ? Or disapprove completely ?

Please reply to all

Regards

-=C3=A9ric

From: Mops <mops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "sanjay.mishra=3D40= verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <sanjay.mishra=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.= org>
Date: Friday, 30 August 2019 at 16:14
To: Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mo= ps@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG

Hi Leslie =E2=80=93 The proposed charter looks good. I just have a commen= t RE need of clarity on the text =E2=80=9Cor networks are inadequate to m= eet these updated requirements=E2=80=9D.

Otherwise, the charter seems consistent with the discussions during the B= OF.

Thanks
Sanjay


From: Mops [mailto:mops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Daigle
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:22 AM
To: mops@ietf.org
Subject: [E] [Mops] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG

Hi,

The two clear takeaways I had from the MOPS bof at IETF 105 were that the= re is interest in =E2=80=9Cthis area of work=E2=80=9D and that the propos= ed charter was not nearly crisp enough to agree on what the area of work = was, or the specific things to be done.

As I said in the meeting, the challenge in trying to be crisp by narrowin= g the focus is that we actually need a rather broad =E2=80=9Ccatchment=E2= =80=9D area, specifically pulling in things from several areas within the= IETF and being open to input from other organizations. To achieve some l= evel of sanity, I=E2=80=99ve attempted to make things clearer by being mo= re specific about the work to be done. I=E2=80=99ve copied below an UPDAT= ED proposed charter, that is aiming to be at least a little more concrete= =2E

Action items:

1/ Please review the draft charter and provide feedback. (Yes, it looks l= ike the sort of thing you would like to see chartered; suggestions for gr= eater crispness, etc).

2/ Of particular importance, we need more work items in the Milestones. I= told the ADs that I didn=E2=80=99t want to just write a bunch of things = and then try to badger people into working on them (though I will if I ha= ve to :^) ). I=E2=80=99d rather have suggestions from interested parties = about the things they are willing to work on in this area, or that they=E2= =80=99d like to see done with a little help from others.

Okay =E2=80=94 please comment.

Leslie.

=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94=E2=80=948<=E2=80=94
=
Media OPS WG

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading to= significant technology development across industries not traditionally t= hought of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as cons= iderable quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. MOPS=E2=80=99= focus is on identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks a= re inadequate to meet these updated requirements.

[I would like to add that the issue is more than to meet these =E2=80=9Cu= pdated=E2=80=9D requirements. In fact, I see MOPS to focus specifically o= n how protocols coming out of the IETF =E2=80=9Cfactory=E2=80=9D when use= d in =E2=80=9Creal-world=E2=80=9D may have implications across the servic= e delivery food chain. Some of the implications may be by design or not a= s expected. MOPS will help bring operational issue whether it relates to = delivery of service using a protocol that is efficient (or inefficient), = or, is the network on which protocol is running supporting the protocol =E2= =80=9Cas-is=E2=80=9D or is there a need for network operators adjust the = network, or is there an issue for UA conforming to delivery using a parti= cular protocol.].

Not necessarily suggesting above commentary as a substitute text as it is= not meant to be, but, a little more specificity will be helpful. I know,= you do go into that part of specificity in the next paragraph but some u= p front clarity is useful.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, existing and= proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operat= ion of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the g= lobal Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. In this case, = media is considered to include the transport of video, audio, objects and= any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. The scope is media a= nd media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network, but not the te= chnologies of control protocols or media formats.

The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using techn= ologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the existi= ng technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in sympathy= with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a cl= earinghouse to identify appropriate venues for further protocol developme= nt, where necessary.

MOPS goals include documenting existing protocol and operational issues w= ith media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IET= F work.

To those ends, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consort= ia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational= issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solutio= ns or workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities i= n media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting innovations develo= ped outside the IETF

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery.<= br>
5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media technolog= ies in the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experience, including = global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or techno= logies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS= or Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or are= as responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Wor= king Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooper= ate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational an= d deployment problems.

Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Group = only if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community = and if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working Group t= o work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient intere= st in the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the = list of Working Group items.

Milestones

July 2020 Taxonomy of Issues in Internet Media

<more concrete, committed work items needed>

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

____________________________________________= ___
GGIE mailing list
GGIE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-09-05_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1909050187 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-05_07:2019-09-04,2019-09-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909050187 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [GGIE] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: 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[64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.5); Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:20:11 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Wipe-Decisive: 3f9c8b714d1df305_1568233209234_4215012285 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1568233209234:4210112102 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1568233209234 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a80.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a80.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595EA800F0; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=e0rZW2SE8m8+mD 2pI4x/b+Lpqt4=; b=dGUuKnMFj2kpHVqwDRRIKyTixvekwPqHHLNmDLOXeH14Y5 HbmkwkD9IFFi4VLbyPCnjjR8qSeliEtOj5yW+7H5I03cb7JM1I7virhthTCJLqwZ CmewoPenDF9dkVd4V0KewH7fZADoUbTx5rO/DKZMPCClJ9UeudtuIGcSbB0Os= Received: from [169.254.197.81] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a80.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B13E8800EE; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a80 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: mops@ietf.org, ggie@ietf.org Cc: "Eric Vyncke" , "Warren Kumari" Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:19:36 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.5r5635) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_263E6A7F-BF94-4F7E-B78B-CDDEA3C14922_=" X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrtdefgdduvddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufffoffkgggtgfesrgekmherredtjeenucfhrhhomhepfdfnvghslhhivgcuffgrihhglhgvfdcuoehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmqeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpddutdehrdhtlhenucfkphepvdduiedrieeirddutddvrdekfeenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplgduieelrddvheegrdduleejrdekudgnpdhinhgvthepvdduiedrieeirddutddvrdekfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthhepfdfnvghslhhivgcuffgrihhglhgvfdcuoehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Summing up... Re: [GGIE] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:20:19 -0000 --=_MailMate_263E6A7F-BF94-4F7E-B78B-CDDEA3C14922_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having chewed on this for a few days, I think (TL;DR =E2=80=94 we probabl= y are=20 looking RG-ish, but a WG is what we really need): Jake has a good point in saying that the topics and energy exposed so=20 far on these mailing lists would give us reasonable grounds for a=20 research group. Assuming the IRTF Chair concurred with that, an RG=20 would give us a stable meeting basis at IETF meetings to carry on with=20 general discussions of points of interest between video and Internet=20 protocols. While I have only good things to say about research groups, I think=20 Glenn also has a good point in saying that non-RG-like work is being=20 done, protocols are being tinkered with, and operationally-critical work=20 is happening to IETF-related protocols, just not at the IETF (I=E2=80=99v= e=20 quoted some of his text below [2]). Nor are the people doing the work=20 (currently) engaging in IETF work, for the most part ([1]). As a result, either the work is going to just happen outside of the IETF=20 (and suffer from a lack of general Internet engineering review that can=20 be provided at the IETF), or the IETF has to find a way to attract that=20 work/those engineers to come play. I don=E2=80=99t believe an RG will do that last =E2=80=94 attract the eng= ineers or=20 the work to the IETF. If we want to go for the networking issues in the video industry, can we=20 break the chicken and egg situation by at least articulating a small=20 list of concrete work items that an OPS WG could tackle here? Leslie. [1] There are notable exceptions =E2=80=94 but the bulk of the participat= ion=20 in these engineering activities is a disjoint set of engineers from IETF=20 participation, at the moment. [2] In his message of September 5, 2019, Glenn Deen wrote: > Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to=20 > MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF: > > (1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both=20 > video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and > issues this has created. > > (2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that=20 > migration/adoption which include dealing with latency > and scalability of video on those IP networks. > > > Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these=20 > issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE > did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video=20 > production. The streaming video alliance has been working > on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo=20 > etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work=20 > that > the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in=20 > turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF. > > Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to=20 > use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too > depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on. On 5 Sep 2019, at 16:20, Holland, Jake wrote: > Hi Glenn, > > Yay, healthy debate is so much better than a dead list. :) > >> I am saying that I think it's where one draws the line between >> stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for=20 >> TOMORROW. >> ... >> The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research=20 >> topic that >> can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers=20 >> exploring >> the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to do=20 >> as >> services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it=20 >> successfully at >> extreme scale. > > I think this misunderstands the nature of a research group. > > I'll point to BBR as an interesting case in point. Various versions=20 > of it are > deployed live today and at scale by major operators. This is more or=20 > less > independent of the ongoing academic exploration about the way to get=20 > ideal > congestion control properties in networks. > > iccrg is the main IETF venue for discussing BBR, since it's clearly in=20 > scope > there, and nowhere else is right. Just because it's technically=20 > experimental > (and still a work in progress, not even a bona-fide Experimental RFC)=20 > doesn't > mean anybody got stopped from deploying it unilaterally. > > During the time the deployment has happened, having the discussion=20 > venue (as > opposed to not having it) is just a pure win for the internet and for=20 > the > development of the CC algorithm, regardless that the venue happens to=20 > be a > research group (even though yes, iccrg occasionally includes=20 > less-relevant > things as well, at chair's discretion). > > I would anticipate the same for the hacks that video operators get=20 > forced into > to get their performance to work. First you do what you have to in=20 > order to > solve your problem, and then you socialize and maybe standardize what=20 > you've > done so that more people avoid doing stuff that breaks you (and maybe=20 > they can > sometimes give you better suggestions along the way). > > Indeed, I think it would be worth adding to the charter that the=20 > research > group is focused on pressing operational problems observed in practice=20 > and > solution proposals with deployment experience, or at least viable=20 > short-term > deployment potential, as opposed to greenfield proposals that would=20 > need > major changes. > > In that sense, the suggestion to make it an RG is basically a=20 > workaround for > having the scope be unknown and fluid and broad. > > If there's a proposal with bits-on-wire level specificity, a bof for=20 > the specific > proposal would make lots of sense, but "learn about newly discovered=20 > problems > observed while attempting to scale SMTPE and try to think of what to=20 > do about > them" sounds like research to me even when it's about problems=20 > happening today. > > Maybe there are some research groups that are too future-looking and=20 > impractical, > but I think that's driven by the problem space for the RG, rather than=20 > being > inherent to research groups in general. If this group successfully=20 > stays > focused on stuff relevant to operators today, operators will want to=20 > be here, > and it doesn't matter what it's called. > > Also maybe worth looking again at the differences between the criteria=20 > at > the process level for forming a WG and an RG: > > WG: It seems to me we're missing on the top 2 points, due to scope=20 > murkiness > and a dearth of specific work items: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.1 > - Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear and > relevant to the Internet community? > - Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and achievable > within a reasonable time frame? > > RG: I think we're in much better shape in general, and the urgency=20 > here that > Glenn has described falls basically under the 2nd point, as I=20 > understand it: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2014#section-2.1 > - Will the formation of the Research Group foster work that would > not be done otherwise. > (Answer: yes--this is a cry for help from video operators who got=20 > stuck > trying to migrate to IP for more things, and have no path or expertise > in their existing standards bodies for improving the=20 > networking-related > issues they've encountered.) > > Where standardization is necessary or useful, I'd see a key part of=20 > this RG's > role as identifying the specific work to be done and spinning off WGs=20 > for > those specific protocols over the next few years, and then it can=20 > close down > as soon as media on the internet has been conclusively solved to=20 > everyone's > satisfaction and all the media requirements have become stable. ;) > > Best, > Jake > > =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-09-05, 10:49, "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)"=20 > wrote: > > > > On 9/5/19, 9:33 AM, "GGIE on behalf of Holland, Jake"=20 > wrote: > > Hi, > > Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, and=20 > my > response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still=20 > support > normalizing this group. > > (Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case=20 > better > back in February, but my current position was influenced by new > information from feedback during 105.) > > TL/DR: > I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research group > instead of a working group. > > I arrived at the opposite conclusion having worked much the same line=20 > of reasoning that Jake raised. > > In respect to Jake, I'm not saying I think he is wrong. I am saying=20 > that I think it's where one draws the line between > stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for=20 > TOMORROW. > > I suggest we don't worry about creating a home for every cases of=20 > work, but for MOPS focus on the here and now stuff. > > What differentiates the work that I in MOPS is how close to real world=20 > problems, production and deployment it would be. > The video and IP network problems that are hot topics right now with=20 > video creators, video distributors, and video viewers are > uses of IP networking being developed and deployed operationally and=20 > that fits best in a WG and not RG. > > Certainly there are research topics on video things that are more=20 > experimental approaches, and for those MOPS might not be > the right fit. The GGIE proposal might have fit better into an RG,=20 > but that's not what we are currently talking about. > > Perhaps down the road there may be enough experiment and research=20 > video activity that is looking for a home in the IRTF > that it would be right to create an additional group there, but that=20 > isn't this current MOPS discussion in my view. > > Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to=20 > MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF: > > (1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both=20 > video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and > issues this has created. > > (2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that=20 > migration/adoption which include dealing with latency > and scalability of video on those IP networks. > > > Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these=20 > issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE > did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video=20 > production. The streaming video alliance has been working > on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo=20 > etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work=20 > that > the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in=20 > turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF. > > Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to=20 > use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too > depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on. > > That's where I see MOPS filling an important role - ingesting and=20 > maturing the needs from the real world of > video that is using IP Networking as its network and transport and=20 > then turning them in high qualify IETF documents that > are either eventually turned into RFCs via MOPS or are handed over to=20 > other WG when they've matured enough to be ready > for those other groups to look at. This is would be things are in=20 > deployed production today, and things > that are being deployed now as new services, and offerings. > > It's the timeliness of actual wide use that distinguishes things to=20 > me, as well as who is doing it. > > An RG is a great place to connect with academics and industry=20 > researchers. > > A WG is the place to connect with other doing-it-now industry=20 > practitioners that are already at the IETF, and a place to for new=20 > IETF > participants who want to join the IETF to work with others. > > > It's has long struck me as odd that we, meaning we the IETF, often=20 > talk about video on the Internet as if was some edge use case of the=20 > network > and IP standards instead of seeing it as what is: The biggest, without=20 > any close second, use of the Internet globally. I think it's because=20 > up to now > we've been able to semi-ignore it because it wasn't placing major new=20 > demands up the standards developed at the IETF. > > We=E2=80=99ve gotten away with it because until recently the video uses= on=20 > the Internet have been the easy stuff. Things like P2P downloads of=20 > movie files > which benefitted from high distribution of file sources. Or things=20 > like streaming a recorded movie out to a few tens/hundreds of=20 > thousands of people who > wanted to watch it. Those were the easy to solve use cases and not=20 > the really hard stuff like like streaming a live event to hundreds of=20 > millions of > simultaneous viewers globally. > > You can scale delivery of a movie to tens or hundreds of thousands of=20 > viewers by distributing it on many many caches. Throwing more > servers at the problem isn=E2=80=99t enough when you want to live strea= m,=20 > with 6-8s of latency, a sports event to 500 million or more viewers. =20 > That > bigger use case is what is being sought today and it's at such as=20 > scale that any inefficiency or rough spot in the network or its=20 > technology > gets stressed to the breaking point. > > That was an important point Jake's talk at the MOPS BoF highlighted. =20 > The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research=20 > topic that > can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers=20 > exploring the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are=20 > trying to > do as services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it=20 > successfully at extreme scale. > > And that's just one example of where MOPS would play a role by being a=20 > WG that could pull together real world problems and the people who=20 > want to > work on it. The work my well spin out specific needs to other WG=20 > groups, but they would mature it and foster it to a point where it=20 > could fit into the > IETF's way of working and could help solve those problems that video's=20 > stressing of the network bring out. > > > -glenn > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GGIE mailing list > GGIE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_263E6A7F-BF94-4F7E-B78B-CDDEA3C14922_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Having chewed on this for a few days, I think (TL;DR =E2=80= =94 we probably are looking RG-ish, but a WG is what we really need):

=

Jake has a good point in saying that the topics and energ= y exposed so far on these mailing lists would give us reasonable grounds = for a research group. Assuming the IRTF Chair concurred with that, an RG= would give us a stable meeting basis at IETF meetings to carry on with g= eneral discussions of points of interest between video and Internet proto= cols.

While I have only good things to say about research group= s, I think Glenn also has a good point in saying that non-RG-like work is= being done, protocols are being tinkered with, and operationally-critica= l work is happening to IETF-related protocols, just not at the IETF (I=E2= =80=99ve quoted some of his text below [2]). Nor are the people doing th= e work (currently) engaging in IETF work, for the most part ([1]).

As a result, either the work is going to just happen outs= ide of the IETF (and suffer from a lack of general Internet engineering r= eview that can be provided at the IETF), or the IETF has to find a way to= attract that work/those engineers to come play.

I don=E2=80=99t believe an RG will do that last =E2=80=94= attract the engineers or the work to the IETF.

If we want to go for the networking issues in the video i= ndustry, can we break the chicken and egg situation by at least articulat= ing a small list of concrete work items that an OPS WG could tackle here?=

Leslie.

[1] There are notable exceptions =E2=80=94 but the bulk o= f the participation in these engineering activities is a disjoint set of = engineers from IETF participation, at the moment.

[2] In his message of September 5, 2019, Glenn Deen wrote= :

L= et's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to MOPS = on why this was being looked at in the IETF:

(1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both video = creation, and video delivery and the current needs and
issues this has created.

(2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that mi= gration/adoption which include dealing with latency
and scalability of video on those IP networks.


Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these iss= ues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE
did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video produ= ction. The streaming video alliance has been working
on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo etc.= BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work that
the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in turn= depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF.

Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to use = IP Networks to deliver video, but they too
depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on.

On 5 Sep 2019, at 16:20, Holland, Jake wrote:

H= i Glenn,

Yay, healthy debate is so much better than a dead list. :)

I am saying= that I think it's where one draws the line between
stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for TOMORRO= W.
=2E..
The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research topic= that
can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers expl= oring
the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to do as<= br> services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it successful= ly at
extreme scale.

I think this misunderstands the nature of a = research group.

I'll point to BBR as an interesting case in point. Various versions of i= t are
deployed live today and at scale by major operators. This is more or les= s
independent of the ongoing academic exploration about the way to get idea= l
congestion control properties in networks.

iccrg is the main IETF venue for discussing BBR, since it's clearly in sc= ope
there, and nowhere else is right. Just because it's technically experime= ntal
(and still a work in progress, not even a bona-fide Experimental RFC) doe= sn't
mean anybody got stopped from deploying it unilaterally.

During the time the deployment has happened, having the discussion venue = (as
opposed to not having it) is just a pure win for the internet and for the=
development of the CC algorithm, regardless that the venue happens to be = a
research group (even though yes, iccrg occasionally includes less-relevan= t
things as well, at chair's discretion).

I would anticipate the same for the hacks that video operators get forced= into
to get their performance to work. First you do what you have to in order= to
solve your problem, and then you socialize and maybe standardize what you= 've
done so that more people avoid doing stuff that breaks you (and maybe the= y can
sometimes give you better suggestions along the way).

Indeed, I think it would be worth adding to the charter that the research=
group is focused on pressing operational problems observed in practice an= d
solution proposals with deployment experience, or at least viable short-t= erm
deployment potential, as opposed to greenfield proposals that would need<= br> major changes.

In that sense, the suggestion to make it an RG is basically a workaround = for
having the scope be unknown and fluid and broad.

If there's a proposal with bits-on-wire level specificity, a bof for the = specific
proposal would make lots of sense, but "learn about newly discovered prob= lems
observed while attempting to scale SMTPE and try to think of what to do a= bout
them" sounds like research to me even when it's about problems happening = today.

Maybe there are some research groups that are too future-looking and impr= actical,
but I think that's driven by the problem space for the RG, rather than be= ing
inherent to research groups in general. If this group successfully stays=
focused on stuff relevant to operators today, operators will want to be h= ere,
and it doesn't matter what it's called.

Also maybe worth looking again at the differences between the criteria at=
the process level for forming a WG and an RG:

WG: It seems to me we're missing on the top 2 points, due to scope murkin= ess
and a dearth of specific work items:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.1
- Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear and relevant to the Internet community?
- Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and achievable within a reasonable time frame?

RG: I think we're in much better shape in general, and the urgency here t= hat
Glenn has described falls basically under the 2nd point, as I understand = it:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2014#section-2.1
- Will the formation of the Research Group foster work that would
= not be done otherwise.
(Answer: yes--this is a cry for help from video operators who got stuck trying to migrate to IP for more things, and have no path or expertise in their existing standards bodies for improving the networking-related issues they've encountered.)

Where standardization is necessary or useful, I'd see a key part of this = RG's
role as identifying the specific work to be done and spinning off WGs for=
those specific protocols over the next few years, and then it can close d= own
as soon as media on the internet has been conclusively solved to everyone= 's
satisfaction and all the media requirements have become stable. ;)

Best,
Jake

=EF=BB=BFOn 2019-09-05, 10:49, "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <Glenn.Dee= n@nbcuni.com> wrote:



On 9/5/19, 9:33 AM, "GGIE on behalf of Holland, Jake" <ggie-bounces@ie= tf.org on behalf of jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

Hi,

Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, and my=
response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still support=
normalizing this group.

(Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case better=
back in February, but my current position was influenced by new
information from feedback during 105.)

TL/DR:
I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research group instead of a working group.

I arrived at the opposite conclusion having worked much the same line of = reasoning that Jake raised.

In respect to Jake, I'm not saying I think he is wrong. I am saying that= I think it's where one draws the line between
stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for TOMORRO= W.

I suggest we don't worry about creating a home for every cases of work, b= ut for MOPS focus on the here and now stuff.

What differentiates the work that I in MOPS is how close to real world pr= oblems, production and deployment it would be.
The video and IP network problems that are hot topics right now with vide= o creators, video distributors, and video viewers are
uses of IP networking being developed and deployed operationally and that= fits best in a WG and not RG.

Certainly there are research topics on video things that are more experim= ental approaches, and for those MOPS might not be
the right fit. The GGIE proposal might have fit better into an RG, but= that's not what we are currently talking about.

Perhaps down the road there may be enough experiment and research video a= ctivity that is looking for a home in the IRTF
that it would be right to create an additional group there, but that isn'= t this current MOPS discussion in my view.

Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to MOPS= on why this was being looked at in the IETF:

(1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both video = creation, and video delivery and the current needs and
issues this has created.

(2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that mi= gration/adoption which include dealing with latency
and scalability of video on those IP networks.


Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these iss= ues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE
did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video produ= ction. The streaming video alliance has been working
on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo etc.= BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work that
the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in turn= depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF.

Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to use = IP Networks to deliver video, but they too
depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on.

That's where I see MOPS filling an important role - ingesting and maturin= g the needs from the real world of
video that is using IP Networking as its network and transport and then t= urning them in high qualify IETF documents that
are either eventually turned into RFCs via MOPS or are handed over to oth= er WG when they've matured enough to be ready
for those other groups to look at. This is would be things are in depl= oyed production today, and things
that are being deployed now as new services, and offerings.

It's the timeliness of actual wide use that distinguishes things to me, a= s well as who is doing it.

An RG is a great place to connect with academics and industry researchers= =2E

A WG is the place to connect with other doing-it-now industry practitione= rs that are already at the IETF, and a place to for new IETF
participants who want to join the IETF to work with others.


It's has long struck me as odd that we, meaning we the IETF, often talk a= bout video on the Internet as if was some edge use case of the network and IP standards instead of seeing it as what is: The biggest, without an= y close second, use of the Internet globally. I think it's because up t= o now
we've been able to semi-ignore it because it wasn't placing major new dem= ands up the standards developed at the IETF.

We=E2=80=99ve gotten away with it because until recently the video uses o= n the Internet have been the easy stuff. Things like P2P downloads of mo= vie files
which benefitted from high distribution of file sources. Or things like = streaming a recorded movie out to a few tens/hundreds of thousands of peo= ple who
wanted to watch it. Those were the easy to solve use cases and not th= e really hard stuff like like streaming a live event to hundreds of milli= ons of
simultaneous viewers globally.

You can scale delivery of a movie to tens or hundreds of thousands of vie= wers by distributing it on many many caches. Throwing more
servers at the problem isn=E2=80=99t enough when you want to live stream,= with 6-8s of latency, a sports event to 500 million or more viewers. Th= at
bigger use case is what is being sought today and it's at such as scale t= hat any inefficiency or rough spot in the network or its technology
gets stressed to the breaking point.

That was an important point Jake's talk at the MOPS BoF highlighted. The= thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research topic th= at
can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers expl= oring the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to<= br> do as services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it succ= essfully at extreme scale.

And that's just one example of where MOPS would play a role by being a WG= that could pull together real world problems and the people who want to<= br> work on it. The work my well spin out specific needs to other WG grou= ps, but they would mature it and foster it to a point where it could fit = into the
IETF's way of working and could help solve those problems that video's st= ressing of the network bring out.


-glenn




_______________________________________________
GGIE mailing list
GGIE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--=_MailMate_263E6A7F-BF94-4F7E-B78B-CDDEA3C14922_=-- From nobody Tue Sep 17 15:27:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860421200B1; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ujBp0Z_uBCC; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 970C9120124; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=34163 helo=[192.168.0.86]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1iALwV-0004KK-Pu; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:27:32 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6F6C0D7-3B1D-4294-8495-6E93ABF7FA97" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:27:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: mops@ietf.org, ggie@ietf.org, Eric Vyncke , Warren Kumari To: Leslie Daigle References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Summing up... Re: [GGIE] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 22:27:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C6F6C0D7-3B1D-4294-8495-6E93ABF7FA97 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Leslie, I don=E2=80=99t disagree that there=E2=80=99s research here =E2=80=93 = but I also tend to think that what you need is an OPS working group. = You=E2=80=99re trying to deploy stuff and figure out: 1) what works today =E2=86=92 produce drafts giving operational guidance 2) what doesn=E2=80=99t work today, but we (think we) know how to build = it =E2=86=92 send requirements to an existing WG or other standards = body, or spin-up an IETF BoF 3) what doesn=E2=80=99t work today, and we don=E2=80=99t know how to = build it =E2=86=92 input to IRTF To me, that seems like a good focus for a media operations working group = that acts as a focus for discussion, experience, and requirements = gathering, and spins-off new work to IETF or IRTF as appropriate.=20 I also somewhat wonder if an IRTF group might end-up too far into the = research side, and not operational enough to address the actual problems = you=E2=80=99re seeing. Getting the balance of the community right is not = easy=E2=80=A6=20 Colin > On 11 Sep 2019, at 21:19, Leslie Daigle = wrote: >=20 > Having chewed on this for a few days, I think (TL;DR =E2=80=94 we = probably are looking RG-ish, but a WG is what we really need): >=20 > Jake has a good point in saying that the topics and energy exposed so = far on these mailing lists would give us reasonable grounds for a = research group. Assuming the IRTF Chair concurred with that, an RG would = give us a stable meeting basis at IETF meetings to carry on with general = discussions of points of interest between video and Internet protocols. >=20 > While I have only good things to say about research groups, I think = Glenn also has a good point in saying that non-RG-like work is being = done, protocols are being tinkered with, and operationally-critical work = is happening to IETF-related protocols, just not at the IETF (I=E2=80=99ve= quoted some of his text below [2]). Nor are the people doing the work = (currently) engaging in IETF work, for the most part ([1]). >=20 > As a result, either the work is going to just happen outside of the = IETF (and suffer from a lack of general Internet engineering review that = can be provided at the IETF), or the IETF has to find a way to attract = that work/those engineers to come play. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t believe an RG will do that last =E2=80=94 attract the = engineers or the work to the IETF. >=20 > If we want to go for the networking issues in the video industry, can = we break the chicken and egg situation by at least articulating a small = list of concrete work items that an OPS WG could tackle here? >=20 > Leslie. >=20 > [1] There are notable exceptions =E2=80=94 but the bulk of the = participation in these engineering activities is a disjoint set of = engineers from IETF participation, at the moment. >=20 > [2] In his message of September 5, 2019, Glenn Deen wrote: >=20 > Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to = MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF: >=20 > (1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both = video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and > issues this has created. >=20 > (2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that = migration/adoption which include dealing with latency > and scalability of video on those IP networks. >=20 >=20 > Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these = issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE > did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video = production. The streaming video alliance has been working > on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo = etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work that > the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in turn = depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF. >=20 > Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to = use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too > depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on. >=20 > On 5 Sep 2019, at 16:20, Holland, Jake wrote: >=20 > Hi Glenn, >=20 > Yay, healthy debate is so much better than a dead list. :) >=20 > I am saying that I think it's where one draws the line between > stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for = TOMORROW. > ... > The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research = topic that > can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers = exploring > the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to do as > services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it = successfully at > extreme scale. >=20 > I think this misunderstands the nature of a research group. >=20 > I'll point to BBR as an interesting case in point. Various versions of = it are > deployed live today and at scale by major operators. This is more or = less > independent of the ongoing academic exploration about the way to get = ideal > congestion control properties in networks. >=20 > iccrg is the main IETF venue for discussing BBR, since it's clearly in = scope > there, and nowhere else is right. Just because it's technically = experimental > (and still a work in progress, not even a bona-fide Experimental RFC) = doesn't > mean anybody got stopped from deploying it unilaterally. >=20 > During the time the deployment has happened, having the discussion = venue (as > opposed to not having it) is just a pure win for the internet and for = the > development of the CC algorithm, regardless that the venue happens to = be a > research group (even though yes, iccrg occasionally includes = less-relevant > things as well, at chair's discretion). >=20 > I would anticipate the same for the hacks that video operators get = forced into > to get their performance to work. First you do what you have to in = order to > solve your problem, and then you socialize and maybe standardize what = you've > done so that more people avoid doing stuff that breaks you (and maybe = they can > sometimes give you better suggestions along the way). >=20 > Indeed, I think it would be worth adding to the charter that the = research > group is focused on pressing operational problems observed in practice = and > solution proposals with deployment experience, or at least viable = short-term > deployment potential, as opposed to greenfield proposals that would = need > major changes. >=20 > In that sense, the suggestion to make it an RG is basically a = workaround for > having the scope be unknown and fluid and broad. >=20 > If there's a proposal with bits-on-wire level specificity, a bof for = the specific > proposal would make lots of sense, but "learn about newly discovered = problems > observed while attempting to scale SMTPE and try to think of what to = do about > them" sounds like research to me even when it's about problems = happening today. >=20 > Maybe there are some research groups that are too future-looking and = impractical, > but I think that's driven by the problem space for the RG, rather than = being > inherent to research groups in general. If this group successfully = stays > focused on stuff relevant to operators today, operators will want to = be here, > and it doesn't matter what it's called. >=20 > Also maybe worth looking again at the differences between the criteria = at > the process level for forming a WG and an RG: >=20 > WG: It seems to me we're missing on the top 2 points, due to scope = murkiness > and a dearth of specific work items: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.1 = > - Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear and > relevant to the Internet community? > - Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and achievable > within a reasonable time frame? >=20 > RG: I think we're in much better shape in general, and the urgency = here that > Glenn has described falls basically under the 2nd point, as I = understand it: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2014#section-2.1 = > - Will the formation of the Research Group foster work that would > not be done otherwise. > (Answer: yes--this is a cry for help from video operators who got = stuck > trying to migrate to IP for more things, and have no path or expertise > in their existing standards bodies for improving the = networking-related > issues they've encountered.) >=20 > Where standardization is necessary or useful, I'd see a key part of = this RG's > role as identifying the specific work to be done and spinning off WGs = for > those specific protocols over the next few years, and then it can = close down > as soon as media on the internet has been conclusively solved to = everyone's > satisfaction and all the media requirements have become stable. ;) >=20 > Best, > Jake >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-09-05, 10:49, "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 9/5/19, 9:33 AM, "GGIE on behalf of Holland, Jake" = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, and my > response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still support > normalizing this group. >=20 > (Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case better > back in February, but my current position was influenced by new > information from feedback during 105.) >=20 > TL/DR: > I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research group > instead of a working group. >=20 > I arrived at the opposite conclusion having worked much the same line = of reasoning that Jake raised. >=20 > In respect to Jake, I'm not saying I think he is wrong. I am saying = that I think it's where one draws the line between > stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for = TOMORROW. >=20 > I suggest we don't worry about creating a home for every cases of = work, but for MOPS focus on the here and now stuff. >=20 > What differentiates the work that I in MOPS is how close to real world = problems, production and deployment it would be. > The video and IP network problems that are hot topics right now with = video creators, video distributors, and video viewers are > uses of IP networking being developed and deployed operationally and = that fits best in a WG and not RG. >=20 > Certainly there are research topics on video things that are more = experimental approaches, and for those MOPS might not be > the right fit. The GGIE proposal might have fit better into an RG, but = that's not what we are currently talking about. >=20 > Perhaps down the road there may be enough experiment and research = video activity that is looking for a home in the IRTF > that it would be right to create an additional group there, but that = isn't this current MOPS discussion in my view. >=20 > Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to = MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF: >=20 > (1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both = video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and > issues this has created. >=20 > (2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that = migration/adoption which include dealing with latency > and scalability of video on those IP networks. >=20 >=20 > Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these = issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE > did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video = production. The streaming video alliance has been working > on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo = etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work that > the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in turn = depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF. >=20 > Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to = use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too > depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on. >=20 > That's where I see MOPS filling an important role - ingesting and = maturing the needs from the real world of > video that is using IP Networking as its network and transport and = then turning them in high qualify IETF documents that > are either eventually turned into RFCs via MOPS or are handed over to = other WG when they've matured enough to be ready > for those other groups to look at. This is would be things are in = deployed production today, and things > that are being deployed now as new services, and offerings. >=20 > It's the timeliness of actual wide use that distinguishes things to = me, as well as who is doing it. >=20 > An RG is a great place to connect with academics and industry = researchers. >=20 > A WG is the place to connect with other doing-it-now industry = practitioners that are already at the IETF, and a place to for new IETF > participants who want to join the IETF to work with others. >=20 >=20 > It's has long struck me as odd that we, meaning we the IETF, often = talk about video on the Internet as if was some edge use case of the = network > and IP standards instead of seeing it as what is: The biggest, without = any close second, use of the Internet globally. I think it's because up = to now > we've been able to semi-ignore it because it wasn't placing major new = demands up the standards developed at the IETF. >=20 > We=E2=80=99ve gotten away with it because until recently the video = uses on the Internet have been the easy stuff. Things like P2P downloads = of movie files > which benefitted from high distribution of file sources. Or things = like streaming a recorded movie out to a few tens/hundreds of thousands = of people who > wanted to watch it. Those were the easy to solve use cases and not the = really hard stuff like like streaming a live event to hundreds of = millions of > simultaneous viewers globally. >=20 > You can scale delivery of a movie to tens or hundreds of thousands of = viewers by distributing it on many many caches. Throwing more > servers at the problem isn=E2=80=99t enough when you want to live = stream, with 6-8s of latency, a sports event to 500 million or more = viewers. That > bigger use case is what is being sought today and it's at such as = scale that any inefficiency or rough spot in the network or its = technology > gets stressed to the breaking point. >=20 > That was an important point Jake's talk at the MOPS BoF highlighted. = The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research = topic that > can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers = exploring the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying = to > do as services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it = successfully at extreme scale. >=20 > And that's just one example of where MOPS would play a role by being a = WG that could pull together real world problems and the people who want = to > work on it. The work my well spin out specific needs to other WG = groups, but they would mature it and foster it to a point where it could = fit into the > IETF's way of working and could help solve those problems that video's = stressing of the network bring out. >=20 >=20 > -glenn >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > GGIE mailing list > GGIE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie = > -- >=20 > Leslie Daigle > Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises >=20 > ldaigle@thinkingcat.com --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_C6F6C0D7-3B1D-4294-8495-6E93ABF7FA97 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Leslie,

I don=E2=80=99= t disagree that there=E2=80=99s research here =E2=80=93 but I also tend = to think that what you need is an OPS working group. You=E2=80=99re = trying to deploy stuff and figure out:

1) what works today =E2=86=92 produce = drafts giving operational guidance

2) what doesn=E2=80=99t work today, but = we (think we) know how to build it =E2=86=92 send requirements to an = existing WG or other standards body, or spin-up an IETF BoF

3) what doesn=E2=80=99t = work today, and we don=E2=80=99t know how to build it =E2=86=92 input to = IRTF

To me, = that seems like a good focus for a media operations working group that = acts as a focus for discussion, experience, and requirements gathering, = and spins-off new work to IETF or IRTF as appropriate. 

I also somewhat wonder = if an IRTF group might end-up too far into the research side, and not = operational enough to address the actual problems you=E2=80=99re seeing. = Getting the balance of the community right is not = easy=E2=80=A6 

Colin



On 11 Sep 2019, at 21:19, Leslie Daigle = <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com> wrote:

Having = chewed on this for a few days, I think (TL;DR =E2=80=94 we probably are = looking RG-ish, but a WG is what we really need):

Jake has a good point in saying that the topics and energy = exposed so far on these mailing lists would give us reasonable grounds = for a research group. Assuming the IRTF Chair concurred with that, an = RG would give us a stable meeting basis at IETF meetings to carry on = with general discussions of points of interest between video and = Internet protocols.

While I have only = good things to say about research groups, I think Glenn also has a good = point in saying that non-RG-like work is being done, protocols are being = tinkered with, and operationally-critical work is happening to = IETF-related protocols, just not at the IETF (I=E2=80=99ve quoted some = of his text below [2]). Nor are the people doing the work (currently) = engaging in IETF work, for the most part ([1]).

As a result, either the work is going to just happen outside = of the IETF (and suffer from a lack of general Internet engineering = review that can be provided at the IETF), or the IETF has to find a way = to attract that work/those engineers to come play.

I don=E2=80=99t believe an RG will do that last =E2=80=94 = attract the engineers or the work to the IETF.

If we want to go for the networking issues in the video = industry, can we break the chicken and egg situation by at least = articulating a small list of concrete work items that an OPS WG could = tackle here?

Leslie.

[1] There are notable exceptions =E2=80=94 but the bulk of = the participation in these engineering activities is a disjoint set of = engineers from IETF participation, at the moment.

[2] In his message of September 5, 2019, Glenn Deen = wrote:

Let's recall, = that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to MOPS on why this = was being looked at in the IETF:

(1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both video = creation, and video delivery and the current needs and
issues this has created.

(2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that = migration/adoption which include dealing with latency
and scalability of video on those IP networks.


Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these = issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE
did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video = production. The streaming video alliance has been working
= on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo = etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work = that
the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in = turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF.

Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to use = IP Networks to deliver video, but they too
depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on.

On= 5 Sep 2019, at 16:20, Holland, Jake wrote:

Hi Glenn,

Yay, healthy debate is so much better than a dead list. :)

I am saying that I think it's where one draws the line = between
stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for = TOMORROW.
...
The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research = topic that
can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers = exploring
the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to do = as
services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it = successfully at
extreme scale.

I think this misunderstands the = nature of a research group.

I'll point to BBR as an interesting case in point. Various versions of = it are
deployed live today and at scale by major operators. This is more or = less
independent of the ongoing academic exploration about the way to get = ideal
congestion control properties in networks.

iccrg is the main IETF venue for discussing BBR, since it's clearly in = scope
there, and nowhere else is right. Just because it's technically = experimental
(and still a work in progress, not even a bona-fide Experimental RFC) = doesn't
mean anybody got stopped from deploying it unilaterally.

During the time the deployment has happened, having the discussion venue = (as
opposed to not having it) is just a pure win for the internet and for = the
development of the CC algorithm, regardless that the venue happens to be = a
research group (even though yes, iccrg occasionally includes = less-relevant
things as well, at chair's discretion).

I would anticipate the same for the hacks that video operators get = forced into
to get their performance to work. First you do what you have to in = order to
solve your problem, and then you socialize and maybe standardize what = you've
done so that more people avoid doing stuff that breaks you (and maybe = they can
sometimes give you better suggestions along the way).

Indeed, I think it would be worth adding to the charter that the = research
group is focused on pressing operational problems observed in practice = and
solution proposals with deployment experience, or at least viable = short-term
deployment potential, as opposed to greenfield proposals that would = need
major changes.

In that sense, the suggestion to make it an RG is basically a workaround = for
having the scope be unknown and fluid and broad.

If there's a proposal with bits-on-wire level specificity, a bof for the = specific
proposal would make lots of sense, but "learn about newly discovered = problems
observed while attempting to scale SMTPE and try to think of what to do = about
them" sounds like research to me even when it's about problems happening = today.

Maybe there are some research groups that are too future-looking and = impractical,
but I think that's driven by the problem space for the RG, rather than = being
inherent to research groups in general. If this group successfully = stays
focused on stuff relevant to operators today, operators will want to be = here,
and it doesn't matter what it's called.

Also maybe worth looking again at the differences between the criteria = at
the process level for forming a WG and an RG:

WG: It seems to me we're missing on the top 2 points, due to scope = murkiness
and a dearth of specific work items:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.1
- Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear = and
relevant to the Internet community?
- Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and = achievable
within a reasonable time frame?

RG: I think we're in much better shape in general, and the urgency here = that
Glenn has described falls basically under the 2nd point, as I understand = it:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2014#section-2.1
- Will the formation of the Research Group foster work that would
not be done otherwise.
(Answer: yes--this is a cry for help from video operators who got = stuck
trying to migrate to IP for more things, and have no path or = expertise
in their existing standards bodies for improving the = networking-related
issues they've encountered.)

Where standardization is necessary or useful, I'd see a key part of this = RG's
role as identifying the specific work to be done and spinning off WGs = for
those specific protocols over the next few years, and then it can close = down
as soon as media on the internet has been conclusively solved to = everyone's
satisfaction and all the media requirements have become stable. ;)

Best,
Jake

=EF=BB=BFOn 2019-09-05, 10:49, "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote:



On 9/5/19, 9:33 AM, "GGIE on behalf of Holland, Jake" <ggie-bounces@ietf.org= on behalf of jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

Hi,

Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, and = my
response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still = support
normalizing this group.

(Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case = better
back in February, but my current position was influenced by new
information from feedback during 105.)

TL/DR:
I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research = group
instead of a working group.

I arrived at the opposite conclusion having worked much the same line of = reasoning that Jake raised.

In respect to Jake, I'm not saying I think he is wrong. I am saying = that I think it's where one draws the line between
stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for = TOMORROW.

I suggest we don't worry about creating a home for every cases of work, = but for MOPS focus on the here and now stuff.

What differentiates the work that I in MOPS is how close to real world = problems, production and deployment it would be.
The video and IP network problems that are hot topics right now with = video creators, video distributors, and video viewers are
uses of IP networking being developed and deployed operationally and = that fits best in a WG and not RG.

Certainly there are research topics on video things that are more = experimental approaches, and for those MOPS might not be
the right fit. The GGIE proposal might have fit better into an RG, = but that's not what we are currently talking about.

Perhaps down the road there may be enough experiment and research video = activity that is looking for a home in the IRTF
that it would be right to create an additional group there, but that = isn't this current MOPS discussion in my view.

Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to = MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF:

(1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both video = creation, and video delivery and the current needs and
issues this has created.

(2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that = migration/adoption which include dealing with latency
and scalability of video on those IP networks.


Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these = issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE
did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video = production. The streaming video alliance has been working
= on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo = etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work = that
the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in = turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF.

Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to use = IP Networks to deliver video, but they too
depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on.

That's where I see MOPS filling an important role - ingesting and = maturing the needs from the real world of
video that is using IP Networking as its network and transport and then = turning them in high qualify IETF documents that
are either eventually turned into RFCs via MOPS or are handed over to = other WG when they've matured enough to be ready
for those other groups to look at. This is would be things are in = deployed production today, and things
that are being deployed now as new services, and offerings.
=
It's the timeliness of actual wide use that distinguishes things to me, = as well as who is doing it.

An RG is a great place to connect with academics and industry = researchers.

A WG is the place to connect with other doing-it-now industry = practitioners that are already at the IETF, and a place to for new = IETF
participants who want to join the IETF to work with others.
=

It's has long struck me as odd that we, meaning we the IETF, often talk = about video on the Internet as if was some edge use case of the = network
and IP standards instead of seeing it as what is: The biggest, without = any close second, use of the Internet globally. I think it's because = up to now
we've been able to semi-ignore it because it wasn't placing major new = demands up the standards developed at the IETF.

We=E2=80=99ve gotten away with it because until recently the video uses = on the Internet have been the easy stuff. Things like P2P downloads of = movie files
which benefitted from high distribution of file sources. Or things like = streaming a recorded movie out to a few tens/hundreds of thousands of = people who
wanted to watch it. Those were the easy to solve use cases and not = the really hard stuff like like streaming a live event to hundreds of = millions of
simultaneous viewers globally.

You can scale delivery of a movie to tens or hundreds of thousands of = viewers by distributing it on many many caches. Throwing more
servers at the problem isn=E2=80=99t enough when you want to live = stream, with 6-8s of latency, a sports event to 500 million or more = viewers. That
bigger use case is what is being sought today and it's at such as scale = that any inefficiency or rough spot in the network or its technology
gets stressed to the breaking point.

That was an important point Jake's talk at the MOPS BoF highlighted. = The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research = topic that
can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers = exploring the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are = trying to
do as services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it = successfully at extreme scale.

And that's just one example of where MOPS would play a role by being a = WG that could pull together real world problems and the people who want = to
work on it. The work my well spin out specific needs to other WG = groups, but they would mature it and foster it to a point where it could = fit into the
IETF's way of working and could help solve those problems that video's = stressing of the network bring out.


-glenn




_______________________________________________
GGIE mailing list
GGIE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie

--=

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_C6F6C0D7-3B1D-4294-8495-6E93ABF7FA97-- From nobody Tue Sep 17 16:03:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6380012004A; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:03:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eaouYKjkkqRC; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.157.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CEE3120133; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049465.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id x8HMpCtd016208; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 19:03:04 -0400 Received: from usaoamgip001.mail.tfayd.com ([173.213.212.135]) by mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2v37vxgsyb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Sep 2019 19:03:03 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO potemwp00014.mail.tfayd.com) ([10.40.78.204]) by usaoamgip001.mail.tfayd.com with ESMTP; 17 Sep 2019 19:00:54 -0400 Received: from potemwp00031.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.55) by potemwp00017.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.669.32; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 17:03:01 -0600 Received: from potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.53) by potemwp00031.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.669.32; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 17:03:00 -0600 Received: from potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) by potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 17:03:00 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: Colin Perkins CC: Leslie Daigle , Warren Kumari , "ggie@ietf.org" , Eric Vyncke , "mops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Mops] Summing up... Re: [GGIE] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG Thread-Index: AQHVbacos13+EoHLMk2cZJry0rh2vacwfMzC Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:03:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-exclaimer-md-config: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F3F0FA5E1B4E4B00AA85131680CFD7E4nbcunicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-17_12:2019-09-17,2019-09-17 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909170213 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Summing up... Re: [GGIE] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 23:03:13 -0000 --_000_F3F0FA5E1B4E4B00AA85131680CFD7E4nbcunicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SXQgc2VlbXMgYXMgaWYgd2UgbmVlZCBzb21ldGhpbmcgaW4gYmV0d2Vlbi4gTmVpdGhlciBhIFJH IG9yIGEgV0cgYnV0IGFuIFRvcGljIEdyb3VwIG9yIEludGVyZXN0IEdyb3VwLg0KDQpPbiBTZXAg MTcsIDIwMTksIGF0IDExOjI3IFBNLCBDb2xpbiBQZXJraW5zIDxjc3BAY3NwZXJraW5zLm9yZzxt YWlsdG86Y3NwQGNzcGVya2lucy5vcmc+PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KSGkgTGVzbGllLA0KDQpJIGRvbuKA mXQgZGlzYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGVyZeKAmXMgcmVzZWFyY2ggaGVyZSDigJMgYnV0IEkgYWxzbyB0 ZW5kIHRvIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgd2hhdCB5b3UgbmVlZCBpcyBhbiBPUFMgd29ya2luZyBncm91cC4g WW914oCZcmUgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGRlcGxveSBzdHVmZiBhbmQgZmlndXJlIG91dDoNCg0KMSkgd2hh 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--_000_F3F0FA5E1B4E4B00AA85131680CFD7E4nbcunicom_-- From nobody Wed Sep 18 09:25:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D271200DE for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tx86vPw_A9VY for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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[64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.5); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 16:25:47 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Decisive-Befitting: 7fae482b1468f7b8_1568823947258_4266813366 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1568823947257:3004573781 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1568823947257 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8349785840; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:25:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=/4o4RB4jAwXYtO AysqkJc5xStzY=; b=Ud99fCoWtvXfcLAJFIFCSaZH4U7syh4NbJNam9jM8+Zpua UW7Hv49AyvJyKcyYPC/6DVgxxPU0p4b29ojA/j3GK3t37ixvX8lix16aZZmJ/R9z 4x50Nj+XwZGkctvFvIAOU8AiEXBnM8VbykNF56bhXkeK7eYRHy1FhduSNHOVw= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 984ED8583A; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:25:40 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a67 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: mops@ietf.org Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 12:25:35 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.5r5635) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_361B3DE1-54C5-4F90-A2E5-19ADA12C6B36_=" X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudekgddutdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffufffokfggtgfgsegrkehmreertdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfnfgvshhlihgvucffrghighhlvgdfuceolhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvudeirdeiiedruddtvddrkeefnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopegludelvddrudeikedruddrheejngdpihhnvghtpedvudeirdeiiedruddtvddrkeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpedfnfgvshhlihgvucffrghighhlvgdfuceolhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomheplhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtoheplhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Updated charter, with milestones X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 16:25:52 -0000 --=_MailMate_361B3DE1-54C5-4F90-A2E5-19ADA12C6B36_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Here=E2=80=99s an updated proposal for the charter. Key updates include=20 milestones, and a bit of language adjustment in the first paragraph to=20 make it not seem like we are asking network operators to declare they=20 are crumbling in the face of video. Input appreciated. Media OPS WG Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading=20 to significant technology development across industries not=20 traditionally thought of as Internet technology developers or operators,=20 as well as considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit=20 networks. MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on identifying areas where existing prot= ocols=20 and/or networks are challenged by these updated requirements. MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, existing=20 and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures=20 in the global Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. In=20 this case, media is considered to include the transport of video, audio,=20 objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. The=20 scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but=20 not the technologies of control protocols or media formats. The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using=20 technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the=20 existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in=20 sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts= as a=20 clearinghouse to identify appropriate venues for further protocol=20 development, where necessary. MOPS goals include documenting existing protocol and operational issues=20 with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential=20 IETF work. To those ends, MOPS will: 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing=20 consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and=20 determine solutions or workarounds to those issues. 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities=20 in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting innovations=20 developed outside the IETF 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery. 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 technologies in the global Internet. These activities should document media operational experience, including=20 global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing=20 Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of=20 the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies.=20 However, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those areas/groups,=20 as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions=20 to MOPS operational and deployment problems. Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Group=20 only if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community=20 and if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working Group=20 to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient=20 interest in the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed=20 from the list of Working Group items. Milestones Feb 2020 Draft of edge network operational considerations for streaming=20 media (was Taxonomy of Issues in Internet Media) Feb 2020 Initial draft operational considerations for low latency=20 streaming video applications Mar 2020 Draft documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reliance on=20 IETF protocols Mar 2020 Draft documenting Society of Motion Picture and Television=20 Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols Jul 2020 Last-call document on Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reliance=20 on IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SVA) Jul 2020 Last-call document on Society of Motion Picture and Television=20 Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols (including=20 explicit outreach to SMPTE) Jul 2020 Revised draft of edge network operational considerations for=20 streaming media Jul 2020 Revised draft operational considerations for low latency=20 streaming video applications Nov 2020 Last-call document on edge network considerations for streaming=20 media Nov 2020 Last-call document on operational considerations for low=20 latency streaming video applications Nov 2020 Develop work items specific to media acquisition and delivery --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_361B3DE1-54C5-4F90-A2E5-19ADA12C6B36_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Here=E2=80=99s an updated proposal for the charter. Key = updates include milestones, and a bit of language adjustment in the first= paragraph to make it not seem like we are asking network operators to de= clare they are crumbling in the face of video.

Input appreciated.

Media OPS WG

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widesp= read, leading to significant technology development across industries not= traditionally thought of as Internet technology developers or operators,= as well as considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit netwo= rks. MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on identifying areas where existing protocols= and/or networks are challenged by these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practic= es, existing and proposed technologies related to the deployment, enginee= ring, and operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and pro= cedures in the global Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking= =2E In this case, media is considered to include the transport of video, = audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. Th= e scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the netwo= rk, but not the technologies of control protocols or media formats.

The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Inte= rnet-using technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure= that the existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are devel= oped in sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. M= OPS acts as a clearinghouse to identify appropriate venues for further pr= otocol development, where necessary.

MOPS goals include documenting existing protocol and oper= ational issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements f= or potential IETF work.

To those ends, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology de= veloping consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols= =2E

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to iden= tify operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and d= etermine solutions or workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and= opportunities in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting in= novations developed outside the IETF

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisitio= n and delivery.

5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of= media technologies in the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experi= ence, including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operation= s.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific pro= tocols or technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routin= g Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of t= he groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies. Howev= er, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as ne= eded, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOP= S operational and deployment problems.

Future work items within this scope will be adopted by th= e Working Group only if there is a substantial expression of interest fro= m the community and if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IET= F.

There must be a continuous expression of interest for the= Working Group to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer s= ufficient interest in the Working Group in a work item, the item may be r= emoved from the list of Working Group items.

Milestones

Feb 2020 Draft of edge network operational considerations= for streaming media (was Taxonomy of Issues in Internet Media)

Feb 2020 Initial draft operational considerations for low= latency streaming video applications

Mar 2020 Draft documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA)= reliance on IETF protocols

Mar 2020 Draft documenting Society of Motion Picture and = Television Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols

Jul 2020 Last-call document on Streaming Video Alliance (= SVA) reliance on IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SVA)

Jul 2020 Last-call document on Society of Motion Picture = and Television Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols (inc= luding explicit outreach to SMPTE)

Jul 2020 Revised draft of edge network operational consid= erations for streaming media

Jul 2020 Revised draft operational considerations for low= latency streaming video applications

Nov 2020 Last-call document on edge network consideration= s for streaming media

Nov 2020 Last-call document on operational considerations= for low latency streaming video applications

Nov 2020 Develop work items specific to media acquisition= and delivery

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--=_MailMate_361B3DE1-54C5-4F90-A2E5-19ADA12C6B36_=-- From nobody Fri Sep 20 13:12:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CCF1208BF; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EW_UCEmZvu6V; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36FD112091C; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:17:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:References:Cc:To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=E6z1rx0Gcx+77VZQvh8dRYmVm5vP8Coz25oi2kt3Nes=; b=0Z+aihnV9+AX1zk4um7pUBEMW Dxc6fGn2OXxZmNm93OsLPFJxBnx7i0KwTkaPRseyhjj4NHN6hH45GazA6M4Qr31I5SZZkMZNpeG94 BIfmYXsW6X1T/lZOZWCVhpIGwgQWuAv2Dul7/lapnmGTgJrG8nlOAE+SipVlUiqvQDp+T2kCjxkU5 rI4RiDwJn/pLcboikyCpEnF0BExaPAjAFsrixxhkt7xaXrch30Op6EmOtfpi4YIU5ubj8ePD5r9aO B3C1Q0UEnT4JafPvcq1/5qXbJfS6VeW3sv6TLI6H4ap2/XMX37AOFDBDuObJi6CWd8OCwutvjRzAq P/ZAnTfpA==; Received: from [31.185.128.31] (port=51012 helo=[192.168.0.3]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iBNT8-000576-0Q; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:17:23 +0100 From: Bob Briscoe To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Colin Perkins Cc: "ggie@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:17:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A2D257852B4CD1593FF4DAB7" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:12:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mops] [GGIE] [EXTERNAL] Re: Summing up... Re: [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:17:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A2D257852B4CD1593FF4DAB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Deen, Colin, ETSI provides a useful structure for exactly what Colin describes - called an Industrial Specification Group. An example was the Network Functions Virtualization ISG, which was primarily about identifying management standards work and research work needed. It led to the creation of a number of IETF WGs and and IRTF RG, as well as open source implementation groups. One of the main features of an ETSI ISG is the ability to publish documents without going through the full publication approval process needed for ETSI standards. ETSI provides a secretariat for each ISG. In previous discussions about how the IETF could reverse a recent tendency to declining involvement, it has been suggested that this type of group would be a useful addition to the IETF's set of types of groups. It might be possible to squeeze such a group into the IETF's existing structures (e.g. as an RG that isn't just about research), but it would be better if the need was recognized and dealt with 'officially'. Cheers Bob On 18/09/2019 00:03, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: > It seems as if we need something in between. Neither a RG or a WG but > an Topic Group or Interest Group. > > On Sep 17, 2019, at 11:27 PM, Colin Perkins > wrote: > >> Hi Leslie, >> >> I don’t disagree that there’s research here – but I also tend to >> think that what you need is an OPS working group. You’re trying to >> deploy stuff and figure out: >> >> 1) what works today → produce drafts giving operational guidance >> >> 2) what doesn’t work today, but we (think we) know how to build it → >> send requirements to an existing WG or other standards body, or >> spin-up an IETF BoF >> >> 3) what doesn’t work today, and we don’t know how to build it → input >> to IRTF >> >> To me, that seems like a good focus for a media operations working >> group that acts as a focus for discussion, experience, and >> requirements gathering, and spins-off new work to IETF or IRTF as >> appropriate. >> >> I also somewhat wonder if an IRTF group might end-up too far into the >> research side, and not operational enough to address the actual >> problems you’re seeing. Getting the balance of the community right is >> not easy… >> >> Colin >> >> >> >>> On 11 Sep 2019, at 21:19, Leslie Daigle >> > wrote: >>> >>> Having chewed on this for a few days, I think (TL;DR — we probably >>> are looking RG-ish, but a WG is what we really need): >>> >>> Jake has a good point in saying that the topics and energy exposed >>> so far on these mailing lists would give us reasonable grounds for a >>> research group. Assuming the IRTF Chair concurred with that, an RG >>> would give us a stable meeting basis at IETF meetings to carry on >>> with general discussions of points of interest between video and >>> Internet protocols. >>> >>> While I have only good things to say about research groups, I think >>> Glenn also has a good point in saying that non-RG-like work is being >>> done, protocols are being tinkered with, and operationally-critical >>> work is happening to IETF-related protocols, just not at the IETF >>> (I’ve quoted some of his text below [2]). Nor are the people doing >>> the work (currently) engaging in IETF work, for the most part ([1]). >>> >>> As a result, either the work is going to just happen outside of the >>> IETF (and suffer from a lack of general Internet engineering review >>> that can be provided at the IETF), or the IETF has to find a way to >>> attract that work/those engineers to come play. >>> >>> I don’t believe an RG will do that last — attract the engineers or >>> the work to the IETF. >>> >>> If we want to go for the networking issues in the video industry, >>> can we break the chicken and egg situation by at least articulating >>> a small list of concrete work items that an OPS WG could tackle here? >>> >>> Leslie. >>> >>> [1] There are notable exceptions — but the bulk of the participation >>> in these engineering activities is a disjoint set of engineers from >>> IETF participation, at the moment. >>> >>> [2] In his message of September 5, 2019, Glenn Deen wrote: >>> >>> Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run >>> up to MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF: >>> >>> (1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for >>> both video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and >>> issues this has created. >>> >>> (2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along >>> with that migration/adoption which include dealing with latency >>> and scalability of video on those IP networks. >>> >>> >>> Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling >>> these issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE >>> did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional >>> video production. The streaming video alliance has been working >>> on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, >>> geo etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this >>> work that >>> the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in >>> turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF. >>> >>> Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of >>> how to use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too >>> depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on. >>> >>> On 5 Sep 2019, at 16:20, Holland, Jake wrote: >>> >>> Hi Glenn, >>> >>> Yay, healthy debate is so much better than a dead list. :) >>> >>> I am saying that I think it's where one draws the line between >>> stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked >>> at for TOMORROW. >>> .... >>> The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical >>> research topic that >>> can linger through long discussions, experiments and >>> academic papers exploring >>> the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are >>> trying to do as >>> services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing >>> it successfully at >>> extreme scale. >>> >>> I think this misunderstands the nature of a research group. >>> >>> I'll point to BBR as an interesting case in point. Various >>> versions of it are >>> deployed live today and at scale by major operators. This is >>> more or less >>> independent of the ongoing academic exploration about the way to >>> get ideal >>> congestion control properties in networks. >>> >>> iccrg is the main IETF venue for discussing BBR, since it's >>> clearly in scope >>> there, and nowhere else is right. Just because it's technically >>> experimental >>> (and still a work in progress, not even a bona-fide Experimental >>> RFC) doesn't >>> mean anybody got stopped from deploying it unilaterally. >>> >>> During the time the deployment has happened, having the >>> discussion venue (as >>> opposed to not having it) is just a pure win for the internet >>> and for the >>> development of the CC algorithm, regardless that the venue >>> happens to be a >>> research group (even though yes, iccrg occasionally includes >>> less-relevant >>> things as well, at chair's discretion). >>> >>> I would anticipate the same for the hacks that video operators >>> get forced into >>> to get their performance to work. First you do what you have to >>> in order to >>> solve your problem, and then you socialize and maybe standardize >>> what you've >>> done so that more people avoid doing stuff that breaks you (and >>> maybe they can >>> sometimes give you better suggestions along the way). >>> >>> Indeed, I think it would be worth adding to the charter that the >>> research >>> group is focused on pressing operational problems observed in >>> practice and >>> solution proposals with deployment experience, or at least >>> viable short-term >>> deployment potential, as opposed to greenfield proposals that >>> would need >>> major changes. >>> >>> In that sense, the suggestion to make it an RG is basically a >>> workaround for >>> having the scope be unknown and fluid and broad. >>> >>> If there's a proposal with bits-on-wire level specificity, a bof >>> for the specific >>> proposal would make lots of sense, but "learn about newly >>> discovered problems >>> observed while attempting to scale SMTPE and try to think of >>> what to do about >>> them" sounds like research to me even when it's about problems >>> happening today. >>> >>> Maybe there are some research groups that are too future-looking >>> and impractical, >>> but I think that's driven by the problem space for the RG, >>> rather than being >>> inherent to research groups in general. If this group >>> successfully stays >>> focused on stuff relevant to operators today, operators will >>> want to be here, >>> and it doesn't matter what it's called. >>> >>> Also maybe worth looking again at the differences between the >>> criteria at >>> the process level for forming a WG and an RG: >>> >>> WG: It seems to me we're missing on the top 2 points, due to >>> scope murkiness >>> and a dearth of specific work items: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.1 >>> >>> - Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear and >>> relevant to the Internet community? >>> - Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and achievable >>> within a reasonable time frame? >>> >>> RG: I think we're in much better shape in general, and the >>> urgency here that >>> Glenn has described falls basically under the 2nd point, as I >>> understand it: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2014#section-2.1 >>> >>> - Will the formation of the Research Group foster work that would >>> not be done otherwise. >>> (Answer: yes--this is a cry for help from video operators who >>> got stuck >>> trying to migrate to IP for more things, and have no path or >>> expertise >>> in their existing standards bodies for improving the >>> networking-related >>> issues they've encountered.) >>> >>> Where standardization is necessary or useful, I'd see a key part >>> of this RG's >>> role as identifying the specific work to be done and spinning >>> off WGs for >>> those specific protocols over the next few years, and then it >>> can close down >>> as soon as media on the internet has been conclusively solved to >>> everyone's >>> satisfaction and all the media requirements have become stable. ;) >>> >>> Best, >>> Jake >>> >>> On 2019-09-05, 10:49, "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 9/5/19, 9:33 AM, "GGIE on behalf of Holland, Jake" >>> on behalf >>> of jholland@akamai.com > wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, >>> and my >>> response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still support >>> normalizing this group. >>> >>> (Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case >>> better >>> back in February, but my current position was influenced by new >>> information from feedback during 105.) >>> >>> TL/DR: >>> I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research group >>> instead of a working group. >>> >>> I arrived at the opposite conclusion having worked much the same >>> line of reasoning that Jake raised. >>> >>> In respect to Jake, I'm not saying I think he is wrong. I am >>> saying that I think it's where one draws the line between >>> stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at >>> for TOMORROW. >>> >>> I suggest we don't worry about creating a home for every cases >>> of work, but for MOPS focus on the here and now stuff. >>> >>> What differentiates the work that I in MOPS is how close to real >>> world problems, production and deployment it would be. >>> The video and IP network problems that are hot topics right now >>> with video creators, video distributors, and video viewers are >>> uses of IP networking being developed and deployed operationally >>> and that fits best in a WG and not RG. >>> >>> Certainly there are research topics on video things that are >>> more experimental approaches, and for those MOPS might not be >>> the right fit. The GGIE proposal might have fit better into an >>> RG, but that's not what we are currently talking about. >>> >>> Perhaps down the road there may be enough experiment and >>> research video activity that is looking for a home in the IRTF >>> that it would be right to create an additional group there, but >>> that isn't this current MOPS discussion in my view. >>> >>> Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run >>> up to MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF: >>> >>> (1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for >>> both video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and >>> issues this has created. >>> >>> (2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along >>> with that migration/adoption which include dealing with latency >>> and scalability of video on those IP networks. >>> >>> >>> Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling >>> these issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE >>> did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional >>> video production. The streaming video alliance has been working >>> on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, >>> geo etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this >>> work that >>> the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in >>> turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF. >>> >>> Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of >>> how to use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too >>> depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on. >>> >>> That's where I see MOPS filling an important role - ingesting >>> and maturing the needs from the real world of >>> video that is using IP Networking as its network and transport >>> and then turning them in high qualify IETF documents that >>> are either eventually turned into RFCs via MOPS or are handed >>> over to other WG when they've matured enough to be ready >>> for those other groups to look at. This is would be things are >>> in deployed production today, and things >>> that are being deployed now as new services, and offerings. >>> >>> It's the timeliness of actual wide use that distinguishes things >>> to me, as well as who is doing it. >>> >>> An RG is a great place to connect with academics and industry >>> researchers. >>> >>> A WG is the place to connect with other doing-it-now industry >>> practitioners that are already at the IETF, and a place to for >>> new IETF >>> participants who want to join the IETF to work with others. >>> >>> >>> It's has long struck me as odd that we, meaning we the IETF, >>> often talk about video on the Internet as if was some edge use >>> case of the network >>> and IP standards instead of seeing it as what is: The biggest, >>> without any close second, use of the Internet globally. I think >>> it's because up to now >>> we've been able to semi-ignore it because it wasn't placing >>> major new demands up the standards developed at the IETF. >>> >>> We’ve gotten away with it because until recently the video uses >>> on the Internet have been the easy stuff. Things like P2P >>> downloads of movie files >>> which benefitted from high distribution of file sources. Or >>> things like streaming a recorded movie out to a few >>> tens/hundreds of thousands of people who >>> wanted to watch it. Those were the easy to solve use cases and >>> not the really hard stuff like like streaming a live event to >>> hundreds of millions of >>> simultaneous viewers globally. >>> >>> You can scale delivery of a movie to tens or hundreds of >>> thousands of viewers by distributing it on many many caches. >>> Throwing more >>> servers at the problem isn’t enough when you want to live >>> stream, with 6-8s of latency, a sports event to 500 million or >>> more viewers. That >>> bigger use case is what is being sought today and it's at such >>> as scale that any inefficiency or rough spot in the network or >>> its technology >>> gets stressed to the breaking point. >>> >>> That was an important point Jake's talk at the MOPS BoF >>> highlighted. The thing is though, that this problem isn't a >>> theoretical research topic that >>> can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic >>> papers exploring the perfect solution. This stuff is what >>> companies are trying to >>> do as services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on >>> doing it successfully at extreme scale. >>> >>> And that's just one example of where MOPS would play a role by >>> being a WG that could pull together real world problems and the >>> people who want to >>> work on it. The work my well spin out specific needs to other WG >>> groups, but they would mature it and foster it to a point where >>> it could fit into the >>> IETF's way of working and could help solve those problems that >>> video's stressing of the network bring out. >>> >>> >>> -glenn >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GGIE mailing list >>> GGIE@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Leslie Daigle >>> Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises >>> >>> >>> ldaigle@thinkingcat.com >>> >>> -- >>> Mops mailing list >>> Mops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Colin Perkins >> https://csperkins.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mops mailing list >> Mops@ietf.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_mops&d=DwICAg&c=LO_8KzsOlAGvgA6hdGI4v02U_XLiES0sR51Zca0yIy4&r=5pfwIkE53AZ16icPhUNATkw3VgfICDWYuWCM0O3mxM4&m=wKWm5iU_LQ4PpPFDXflGzPICJ8mbl2t6xstFP3RDRz0&s=eTa3CVhRIIBnu9Gzp7LSEmd57EGSXUG0uDyR88x4W9w&e= >> > > _______________________________________________ > GGIE mailing list > GGIE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ggie -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------A2D257852B4CD1593FF4DAB7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Deen, Colin,

ETSI provides a useful structure for exactly what Colin describes - called an Industrial Specification Group.
An example was the Network Functions Virtualization ISG, which was primarily about identifying management standards work and research work needed. It led to the creation of a number of IETF WGs and and IRTF RG, as well as open source implementation groups.

One of the main features of an ETSI ISG is the ability to publish documents without going through the full publication approval process needed for ETSI standards. ETSI provides a secretariat for each ISG.

In previous discussions about how the IETF could reverse a recent tendency to declining involvement, it has been suggested that this type of group would be a useful addition to the IETF's set of types of groups. It might be possible to squeeze such a group into the IETF's existing structures (e.g. as an RG that isn't just about research), but it would be better if the need was recognized and dealt with 'officially'.

Cheers


Bob

On 18/09/2019 00:03, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote:
It seems as if we need something in between. Neither a RG or a WG but an Topic Group or Interest Group. 

On Sep 17, 2019, at 11:27 PM, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> wrote:

Hi Leslie,

I don’t disagree that there’s research here – but I also tend to think that what you need is an OPS working group. You’re trying to deploy stuff and figure out:

1) what works today → produce drafts giving operational guidance

2) what doesn’t work today, but we (think we) know how to build it → send requirements to an existing WG or other standards body, or spin-up an IETF BoF

3) what doesn’t work today, and we don’t know how to build it → input to IRTF

To me, that seems like a good focus for a media operations working group that acts as a focus for discussion, experience, and requirements gathering, and spins-off new work to IETF or IRTF as appropriate. 

I also somewhat wonder if an IRTF group might end-up too far into the research side, and not operational enough to address the actual problems you’re seeing. Getting the balance of the community right is not easy… 

Colin



On 11 Sep 2019, at 21:19, Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com> wrote:

Having chewed on this for a few days, I think (TL;DR — we probably are looking RG-ish, but a WG is what we really need):

Jake has a good point in saying that the topics and energy exposed so far on these mailing lists would give us reasonable grounds for a research group. Assuming the IRTF Chair concurred with that, an RG would give us a stable meeting basis at IETF meetings to carry on with general discussions of points of interest between video and Internet protocols.

While I have only good things to say about research groups, I think Glenn also has a good point in saying that non-RG-like work is being done, protocols are being tinkered with, and operationally-critical work is happening to IETF-related protocols, just not at the IETF (I’ve quoted some of his text below [2]). Nor are the people doing the work (currently) engaging in IETF work, for the most part ([1]).

As a result, either the work is going to just happen outside of the IETF (and suffer from a lack of general Internet engineering review that can be provided at the IETF), or the IETF has to find a way to attract that work/those engineers to come play.

I don’t believe an RG will do that last — attract the engineers or the work to the IETF.

If we want to go for the networking issues in the video industry, can we break the chicken and egg situation by at least articulating a small list of concrete work items that an OPS WG could tackle here?

Leslie.

[1] There are notable exceptions — but the bulk of the participation in these engineering activities is a disjoint set of engineers from IETF participation, at the moment.

[2] In his message of September 5, 2019, Glenn Deen wrote:

Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF:

(1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and
issues this has created.

(2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that migration/adoption which include dealing with latency
and scalability of video on those IP networks.


Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE
did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video production. The streaming video alliance has been working
on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work that
the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF.

Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too
depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on.

On 5 Sep 2019, at 16:20, Holland, Jake wrote:

Hi Glenn,

Yay, healthy debate is so much better than a dead list. :)

I am saying that I think it's where one draws the line between
stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for TOMORROW.
....
The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research topic that
can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers exploring
the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to do as
services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it successfully at
extreme scale.

I think this misunderstands the nature of a research group.

I'll point to BBR as an interesting case in point. Various versions of it are
deployed live today and at scale by major operators. This is more or less
independent of the ongoing academic exploration about the way to get ideal
congestion control properties in networks.

iccrg is the main IETF venue for discussing BBR, since it's clearly in scope
there, and nowhere else is right. Just because it's technically experimental
(and still a work in progress, not even a bona-fide Experimental RFC) doesn't
mean anybody got stopped from deploying it unilaterally.

During the time the deployment has happened, having the discussion venue (as
opposed to not having it) is just a pure win for the internet and for the
development of the CC algorithm, regardless that the venue happens to be a
research group (even though yes, iccrg occasionally includes less-relevant
things as well, at chair's discretion).

I would anticipate the same for the hacks that video operators get forced into
to get their performance to work. First you do what you have to in order to
solve your problem, and then you socialize and maybe standardize what you've
done so that more people avoid doing stuff that breaks you (and maybe they can
sometimes give you better suggestions along the way).

Indeed, I think it would be worth adding to the charter that the research
group is focused on pressing operational problems observed in practice and
solution proposals with deployment experience, or at least viable short-term
deployment potential, as opposed to greenfield proposals that would need
major changes.

In that sense, the suggestion to make it an RG is basically a workaround for
having the scope be unknown and fluid and broad.

If there's a proposal with bits-on-wire level specificity, a bof for the specific
proposal would make lots of sense, but "learn about newly discovered problems
observed while attempting to scale SMTPE and try to think of what to do about
them" sounds like research to me even when it's about problems happening today.

Maybe there are some research groups that are too future-looking and impractical,
but I think that's driven by the problem space for the RG, rather than being
inherent to research groups in general. If this group successfully stays
focused on stuff relevant to operators today, operators will want to be here,
and it doesn't matter what it's called.

Also maybe worth looking again at the differences between the criteria at
the process level for forming a WG and an RG:

WG: It seems to me we're missing on the top 2 points, due to scope murkiness
and a dearth of specific work items:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.1
- Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear and
relevant to the Internet community?
- Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and achievable
within a reasonable time frame?

RG: I think we're in much better shape in general, and the urgency here that
Glenn has described falls basically under the 2nd point, as I understand it:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2014#section-2.1
- Will the formation of the Research Group foster work that would
not be done otherwise.
(Answer: yes--this is a cry for help from video operators who got stuck
trying to migrate to IP for more things, and have no path or expertise
in their existing standards bodies for improving the networking-related
issues they've encountered.)

Where standardization is necessary or useful, I'd see a key part of this RG's
role as identifying the specific work to be done and spinning off WGs for
those specific protocols over the next few years, and then it can close down
as soon as media on the internet has been conclusively solved to everyone's
satisfaction and all the media requirements have become stable. ;)

Best,
Jake

On 2019-09-05, 10:49, "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote:



On 9/5/19, 9:33 AM, "GGIE on behalf of Holland, Jake" <ggie-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

Hi,

Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, and my
response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still support
normalizing this group.

(Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case better
back in February, but my current position was influenced by new
information from feedback during 105.)

TL/DR:
I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research group
instead of a working group.

I arrived at the opposite conclusion having worked much the same line of reasoning that Jake raised.

In respect to Jake, I'm not saying I think he is wrong. I am saying that I think it's where one draws the line between
stuff in use TODAY on the network, and things being looked at for TOMORROW.

I suggest we don't worry about creating a home for every cases of work, but for MOPS focus on the here and now stuff.

What differentiates the work that I in MOPS is how close to real world problems, production and deployment it would be.
The video and IP network problems that are hot topics right now with video creators, video distributors, and video viewers are
uses of IP networking being developed and deployed operationally and that fits best in a WG and not RG.

Certainly there are research topics on video things that are more experimental approaches, and for those MOPS might not be
the right fit. The GGIE proposal might have fit better into an RG, but that's not what we are currently talking about.

Perhaps down the road there may be enough experiment and research video activity that is looking for a home in the IRTF
that it would be right to create an additional group there, but that isn't this current MOPS discussion in my view.

Let's recall, that there have been 2 big motivators in the run up to MOPS on why this was being looked at in the IETF:

(1) First, is the video industry migration to IP networks for both video creation, and video delivery and the current needs and
issues this has created.

(2) Second, is the technical challenges that have come along with that migration/adoption which include dealing with latency
and scalability of video on those IP networks.


Orgs like SMPTE and Streaming Video Alliance have been tackling these issues very well in the scope of their ability. SMPTE
did their SMPTE 2110 on how to use IP network in professional video production. The streaming video alliance has been working
on things like CDN caching, location storage, security, privacy, geo etc. BUT each aren't covering the IP Network aspects of this work that
the IETF handles. Both SMPTE and the Streaming Video Alliance in turn depend on the IP Network standards done in the IETF.

Groups like MPEG-DASH are working on the video player side of how to use IP Networks to deliver video, but they too
depend on the IETF's IP networking standards to build on.

That's where I see MOPS filling an important role - ingesting and maturing the needs from the real world of
video that is using IP Networking as its network and transport and then turning them in high qualify IETF documents that
are either eventually turned into RFCs via MOPS or are handed over to other WG when they've matured enough to be ready
for those other groups to look at. This is would be things are in deployed production today, and things
that are being deployed now as new services, and offerings.

It's the timeliness of actual wide use that distinguishes things to me, as well as who is doing it.

An RG is a great place to connect with academics and industry researchers.

A WG is the place to connect with other doing-it-now industry practitioners that are already at the IETF, and a place to for new IETF
participants who want to join the IETF to work with others.


It's has long struck me as odd that we, meaning we the IETF, often talk about video on the Internet as if was some edge use case of the network
and IP standards instead of seeing it as what is: The biggest, without any close second, use of the Internet globally. I think it's because up to now
we've been able to semi-ignore it because it wasn't placing major new demands up the standards developed at the IETF.

We’ve gotten away with it because until recently the video uses on the Internet have been the easy stuff. Things like P2P downloads of movie files
which benefitted from high distribution of file sources. Or things like streaming a recorded movie out to a few tens/hundreds of thousands of people who
wanted to watch it. Those were the easy to solve use cases and not the really hard stuff like like streaming a live event to hundreds of millions of
simultaneous viewers globally.

You can scale delivery of a movie to tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers by distributing it on many many caches. Throwing more
servers at the problem isn’t enough when you want to live stream, with 6-8s of latency, a sports event to 500 million or more viewers. That
bigger use case is what is being sought today and it's at such as scale that any inefficiency or rough spot in the network or its technology
gets stressed to the breaking point.

That was an important point Jake's talk at the MOPS BoF highlighted. The thing is though, that this problem isn't a theoretical research topic that
can linger through long discussions, experiments and academic papers exploring the perfect solution. This stuff is what companies are trying to
do as services to viewers today and are hitting the wall on doing it successfully at extreme scale.

And that's just one example of where MOPS would play a role by being a WG that could pull together real world problems and the people who want to
work on it. The work my well spin out specific needs to other WG groups, but they would mature it and foster it to a point where it could fit into the
IETF's way of working and could help solve those problems that video's stressing of the network bring out.


-glenn




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--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





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-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
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Re: [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:49:47 -0000 --_000_D62C0AE5C87A425FB8768E65B4FB719Eciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Qm9iLA0KDQpZb3UgYXJlIHJpZ2h0IHRvIHRoZSBzcG90LiBNb3N0IG9mIE1PUFMgcHJvcG9uZW50 cyB3YW50IGluZGVlZCB0byBtb3JwaCBpbnRvIGEg4oCYc3BlY2lhbCBpbnRlcmVzdCBncm91cOKA mSwgYmVpbmcgcHJhY3RpY2FsIGxldOKAmXMgZmlyc3Qgc3RhcnQgd2l0aCBhIOKAmG5vcm1hbOKA mSBJRVRGIFdHIHRoZW4gbGV04oCZcyB0cnkgdG8gYWRkIHRoaXMga2luZCBvZiBncm91cHMgd2l0 aGluIHRoZSBJRVRGIGZyYW1ld29yay4NCg0KLcOpcmljDQoNCkZyb206IEJvYiBCcmlzY29lIDxp bkBib2JicmlzY29lLm5ldD4NCkRhdGU6IEZyaWRheSwgMjAgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDIwMTkgYXQgMjA6 MTINClRvOiAiRGVlbiwgR2xlbm4gKE5CQ1VuaXZlcnNhbCkiIDxHbGVubi5EZWVuQG5iY3VuaS5j 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