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Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:55:16 +0000 From: tom petch To: Kent Watsen , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Draft 111 minutes posted - syslog Thread-Index: AQHXo8YT0QHCeDvFo0OHC2UQaWfDog== Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:55:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0100017b50fa4b16-642498ba-3076-485e-9ed2-992aca11e649-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017b50fa4b16-642498ba-3076-485e-9ed2-992aca11e649-000000@email.amazonses.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 2d567657-74bf-0c68-8483-8539bdefb4cf authentication-results: watsen.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;watsen.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 64f79b62-9a73-4ea2-6078-08d971dd364c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR07MB5703: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 64f79b62-9a73-4ea2-6078-08d971dd364c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Sep 2021 08:55:16.1565 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: AxYAECWMyznSk1v/wnGiQIGqabqw98UpP8y+2IGAcMKr80LmRX+sprJiYrC7kueb0uehqN86YWzmQ76QpXeZ2Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB5703 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Draft 111 minutes posted - syslog X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:55:24 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of Kent Watsen =0A= Sent: 16 August 2021 22:59=0A= =0A= NETMOD WG,=0A= =0A= The draft minutes from the 111 session have been posted:=0A= =0A= https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/minutes-111-netm= od-00=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I note the reference to syslog model 26 being back in the WG.=0A= =0A= This puzzles me. I see that the status has been changed to 'Dead' and that= it has dropped off the datatracker for Netmod. I realise that it depends = on keystore and client-server which have moved on but I am unclear what, if= anything, you expect to happen next.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Please take a moment to ensure that your valuable comments have been captur= ed.=0A= =0A= Kent and Lou (and Joel)=0A= =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Tue Sep 7 07:24:54 2021 Return-Path: <0100017bc0a5b1ee-edc3896b-9884-4de3-a77b-d76e87643786-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44CDF3A089B for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 07:24:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RGnidna3v0LL for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 07:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-95.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-95.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34FDC3A0898 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 07:24:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1631024689; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=JmeHziVaktdN5fSRFOBxDCpIJABzC76Jsl5WJP/VO84=; b=Jtwa8alRXIIMpXvpb28tvaPZBo/v0pBXaagP4kCO1CPkH+Ffdxc4Qe5PkiVBdcxU sMHrNxTia2zaexn1306lQGWzs+zVOwWkEA45Z9Q5WW4Qh5ViL5Dn96rjiF2a4+wLVAx kRmXso1c+j/CC7niHWnwf1rmX8ua2bEit2Q7ZqvU= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:24:49 +0000 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <0100017bc0a5b1ee-edc3896b-9884-4de3-a77b-d76e87643786-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <0100017b50fa4b16-642498ba-3076-485e-9ed2-992aca11e649-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: tom petch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.09.07-54.240.48.95 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Draft 111 minutes posted - syslog X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:24:52 -0000 Hi Tom, > I note the reference to syslog model 26 being back in the WG. >=20 > This puzzles me. I see that the status has been changed to 'Dead' and = that it has dropped off the datatracker for Netmod. I realise that it = depends on keystore and client-server which have moved on but I am = unclear what, if anything, you expect to happen next. >=20 > Tom Petch The authors are working on an update, to align with the = "tls-client-server=E2=80=9D draft. The chairs will deal with the =E2=80=98Dead=E2=80=99 status as needed = when the time comes. Thanks for looking at the minutes! :) K.= From nobody Thu Sep 9 04:52:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6334D3A10FC for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 04:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aA3QPzZkgP3L for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 04:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr00048.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.0.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 744EC3A10F9 for ; 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Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:51:54 +0000 From: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBMZW5neWVs?= To: Andy Bierman CC: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Thread-Topic: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf Thread-Index: AQHXdB0ScDY6rhEwiUCIGrL2qSijE6s6kiOAgAHaXQCAGqYDAIAB/JVwgCgblQCAAByt4IAAUG2AgAED4CCAADQzAIAXcfyw Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:51:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yumaworks.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; yumaworks.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 65ca37ec-d502-4d75-2ac6-08d973883848 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR07MB8214: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0825_01D7A581.D8412070" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 65ca37ec-d502-4d75-2ac6-08d973883848 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 11:51:54.5082 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eHhoU5kurvL6GKSNjvdszUhsx1ih/D96ZWGjG0Mrc5eMqgZ5HVhYLntMOBULhUj5Hj2UdaPLk7UuhYCArSUt+lsJzueVwWd8dTYSPY/u8YU= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8214 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:52:05 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0825_01D7A581.D8412070 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0826_01D7A581.D8412070" ------=_NextPart_001_0826_01D7A581.D8412070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Andy, See below as BALAZS2. =20 From: Andy Bierman =20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 24., kedd 13:35 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG = Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed. =20 I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as = instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is = the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set. As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to = specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the = handling used for this specific instance data set. =20 =20 The draft as written does not actually provide the same utility as = . (Without the "default" attribute the "explicit" mode is not actually = supported.) =20 The "with-defaults" mechanism works exactly the same no matter what the XML representation is used for. The mode used to write the data = will correspond to the basic-mode with the same name. BALAZS2: I will add the report-all-tagged mode to the leaf = includes-defaults. This will include the usage of default attribute in = the instance data. Will that make the attribute acceptable for you ? =20 Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 =20 =20 I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to represent "no defaults added". =20 Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a = leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly = identify defaults in this case. =20 Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults = ever reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; Andy Bierman >; NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0826_01D7A581.D8412070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS2.

 

From: Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 24., kedd = 13:35
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On = Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Rob,

I think = this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections = 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data =
files MAY contain partial data =
sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is =
important for many use-cases.  This means you cannot say that a =
default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because =
they are not part of the partial data =
set.
In a way it =
is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing =
because
-        They are not =
part of the partial data-set
-        They are =
omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or =
explicit options is used
If this =
becomes important the report-all =
options =
shall be used.
 =

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I thought = we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to

represent = "no defaults added".

 <= /o:p>

Note that = "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, = since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be = set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify = defaults in this case.

 <= /o:p>

Also note = that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever = reported.

This mode = means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always = returns

every node = (if with-defaults used or not).

 <= /o:p>

This is the =
reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards =
Balazs

 <= /o:p>

Andy

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to = strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses = MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: = 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address = Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the = use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for = the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value = case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate = whether default values are in use is because of this definition of = operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a = consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)          = ;     This value is not = present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)          = ;    This value is not present = because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., = perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not = available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and = is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of = a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in = effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain = and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured = by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would = be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we = need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in = the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July = 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: = Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default = trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the = basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the information is either not = known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug = because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in = deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs = is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       =
type enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default =
values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be =
included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       =
}
       =
default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

<= /blockquote>
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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dbe01a87-066f-4b48-396e-08d973947564 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 13:19:31.0058 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: oGcrV2wih3g8XIv456vFL1ZzhXqOheqRtzp9GbWVSkXlFbo3Qmxfn7pKiPNDbnvWCwuQMHdGJvZTD7GZwonEG1433Y2Bu2poVcz2fr5K3fw= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8171 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:19:42 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_083C_01D7A58E.1555E9D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_083D_01D7A58E.1555E9D0" ------=_NextPart_001_083D_01D7A58E.1555E9D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Andy, See below as BALAZS3. =20 From: Andy Bierman =20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG = Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach. BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata = retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual = data nodes set by the server=E2=80=9D These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I would like to stick with including text here. =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 } } description "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, thus any data node MAY be absent. =20 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set includes data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the same as the default value. =20 Data nodes that have no default values should always be included. Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual value is not equal to the schema defined default should always be included."; =20 =20 AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default are not relevant to this object. BALAZS3: OK =20 reference "RFC 6243 : = With-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; } =20 The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data = set is to include the "default" attribute in each default node. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution). BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. Here is the current proposed text: ------------------------------------------------------------ leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values, if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set."; } enum report-all-tagged { value 2; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set. Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; } =20 enum trim { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is equal to the schema default =20 value SHALL NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 4; description "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the=20 schema default value SHALL NOT be included.=20 However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF=20 client or other management application by the way=20 of an explicit management operation, the data node=20 SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by=20 the instance-data-set."; } } description "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default=20 data. This leaf indicates whether default data is=20 included.=20 =20 As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data=20 sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or=20 leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set=20 does not intend to include the data node independent=20 of default handling."; reference "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; }=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed. =20 I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as = instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is = the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set. As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to = specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the = handling used for this specific instance data set. =20 Regards Balazs =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 =20 =20 I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to represent "no defaults added". =20 Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a = leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly = identify defaults in this case. =20 Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults = ever reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; Andy Bierman >; NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_083D_01D7A58E.1555E9D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS3.

 

From: Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda = 18:29
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC = 6243, section 3.

IMO the = subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about = =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by the = server=E2=80=9D

These parts are not relevant for many of the = instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with including text = here.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
type enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be =
included independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default =
values.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, 3.1
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0"Data nodes that have a =
default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.2
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default =
defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the =
actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other =
management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit =
management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.3
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =
sets,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 thus any data node MAY be =
absent.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain =
a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 full data set, this leaf specifies whether the =
data set
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes data nodes that have a default defined =
and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the same as the default =
value.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have no default values should =
always
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be included.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have a default value, but the =
actual
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value is not equal to the schema defined =
default
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should always be =
included.";
 
 
AB: The last =
paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes =
special?
Nodes that are actually present and do not contain =
the YANG default
are not relevant =
to this object.
BALAZS3: OK
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
reference
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 6243: =
With-defaults Capability for =
NETCONF";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}

 

The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG = default in the data set is to include

the "default" attribute in each default = node. https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6

<= div>

This actually works for explicit mode and = leaf-lists (unlike the current solution).

BALAZS3: OK. Added = report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults = leaf.

Here is the current proposed = text:

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults = {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration = {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values, if the data node =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered by the = instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = report-all-tagged=C2=A0 {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values if the data node =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered by the = instance-data-set.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Any nodes considered to be default data = SHALL

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0contain a 'default' = attribute set to 'true'";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0e= num trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and = where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is equal to the schema = default=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0value SHALL NOT be = included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 value 4;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0schema default value SHALL NOT be = included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, if the actual value was set by = a NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0client or other management application = by the way

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of an explicit management operation, = the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SHALL be included, if the data node is = covered by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the = instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0data. This leaf indicates whether default data is =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0does not intend to include the data node independent =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0of default handling.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = reference

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for = NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 } =

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

 

 

On = Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello = Andy,

In the -17 = I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed.

 <= /o:p>

I am not = sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does = not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single = leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific = instance-data-set.

As this is = not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to specify a = basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling used = for this specific instance data set.

 <= /o:p>

Regards = Balazs

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Rob,

I think = this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections = 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data =
files MAY contain partial data =
sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is =
important for many use-cases.  This means you cannot say that a =
default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because =
they are not part of the partial data =
set.
In a way it =
is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing =
because
-        They are not =
part of the partial data-set
-        They are =
omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or =
explicit options is used
If this =
becomes important the report-all =
options =
shall be used.
 =

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I thought = we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to

represent = "no defaults added".

 <= /o:p>

Note that = "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, = since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be = set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify = defaults in this case.

 <= /o:p>

Also note = that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever = reported.

This mode = means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always = returns

every node = (if with-defaults used or not).

 <= /o:p>

This is the =
reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards =
Balazs

 <= /o:p>

Andy

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to = strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses = MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: = 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address = Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the = use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for = the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value = case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate = whether default values are in use is because of this definition of = operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a = consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)          = ;     This value is not = present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)          = ;    This value is not present = because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., = perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not = available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and = is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of = a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in = effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain = and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured = by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would = be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we = need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in = the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July = 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: = Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default = trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the = basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the information is either not = known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug = because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in = deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs = is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       =
type enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default =
values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be =
included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       =
}
       =
default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JAm8GtD3eRAHVuK9Y7cV2aPNHejkNF5deJ4VSvVwRdaT4ChTeGeIzTEPlb/ma+VqzcuvdSgUqxTNEU+vlkSMx5lfYGlxswlJusmByH0OqBc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8230 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 17:12:21 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0846_01D7A5AE.965870F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0847_01D7A5AE.965870F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0847_01D7A5AE.965870F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am trying to check/submit a new version of my draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18. The previous version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now suddenly I get: == Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- there may comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the Legal Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get rid of it? I use xml2rfc. My draft includes: Help, Balazs -- Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist Ericsson Hungary Ltd. Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com ------=_NextPart_001_0847_01D7A5AE.965870F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I am =
trying to check/submit a new version of my =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.
 
The previous =
version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now suddenly I get: =

 
=3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was =
first submitted -- there may
=A0=A0=A0=A0 comments =
or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for =
pre-RFC5378
=A0=A0=A0=A0 work that could not be =
issued because of this.=A0 Please check the =
Legal
=A0=A0=A0=A0 Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/l=
icense-info to determine
=A0=A0=A0=A0 if you =
need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not =
change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get =
rid of it?
 
I use xml2rfc. My =
draft includes:
 
<rfc category=3D"std" =
ipr=3D"trust200902" =
docName=3D"draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18"><=
o:p>
=A0=A0=A0 =
<date year=3D"2021"/>
 
Help, =
Balazs
 

 

--

Balazs = Lengyel=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Senior = Specialist=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 Ericsson Hungary Ltd.

Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 email: = Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

 

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[69.181.169.15]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a71sm3095888pfd.86.2021.09.09.11.15.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:15:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: <0C2DED64-ECCE-4B80-B8EE-AC08BEFD6CF2@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F37A07EB-5C5C-41EC-8B76-1227A230B71D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:15:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 18:15:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F37A07EB-5C5C-41EC-8B76-1227A230B71D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I assume that this is during the submit process, and that you are not = running this offline. Submit a report to tools@ietf.org = and have them look at it. > On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = wrote: >=20 > Hello, > I am trying to check/submit a new version of my = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18. > =20 > The previous version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now = suddenly I get:=20 > =20 > =3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- = there may > comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for = pre-RFC5378 > work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the = Legal > Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info = to determine > if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. > I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and = how to get rid of it? > =20 > I use xml2rfc. My draft includes: > =20 > > > =20 > Help, Balazs > =20 > =20 > --=20 > Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist = Ericsson Hungary Ltd.=20 > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: = Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > =20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod = Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_F37A07EB-5C5C-41EC-8B76-1227A230B71D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = assume that this is during the submit process, and that you are not = running this offline. Submit a report to tools@ietf.org and have them look at it.

On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Hello,
I am =
trying to check/submit a new version of my =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.
 
The previous version did not have any idnits errors or =
warnings. Now suddenly I get: 
 
=3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was first =
submitted -- there may
     comments or warnings =
related to the use of a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378
     work that could not be issued =
because of this.  Please check the Legal
     Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine
     if you need the pre-RFC5378 =
disclaimer.
I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I =
get this warning and how to get rid of it?
 
I use =
xml2rfc. My draft includes:
 
<rfc=
 category=3D"std" ipr=3D"trust200902" =
docName=3D"draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18">
    <date =
year=3D"2021"/>
 
Help, Balazs
 
 
-- 
Balazs = Lengyel           &= nbsp;        Senior = Specialist          &nbs= p;            = Ericsson Hungary Ltd. 
Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909          = ;    email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
 
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com





= --Apple-Mail=_F37A07EB-5C5C-41EC-8B76-1227A230B71D-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 11:38:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256543A0BEF for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:38:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wM_sSsj6OsOe for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E93A23A0BE9 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id s3so4453384ljp.11 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hhOZxTg9ZS92oWCsiokTn1r+jQPTfz+LQ3eLTmWBZxg=; b=uajtsG190+3jKijAyLD/hhld1TLYPBfYJA8Z0sYK0D5unFPCZucPI6QweH0WD56KyD 1PTkfFuJ6HB17u0onWJ+Z+wN0Rx0wqIVoI9qCKRopabHyyxEsHkCvGtKZWfAWgcgoZb5 XoTqnO2rzhSDlQ4Ut5IpTwKxg+egP3Fda348yufZvaor6QFNT09yxaJVwEF0psaGD7u3 KQq0TBev2WEGQGhIRSOm0r08MSF93ZOgfJqfwxvfIrYDBd1eAlqPaRPcn5wYEp4F3EN3 9zsfcYEBqZfQpdMiy/uZCxu1Ju+XL68XjRZpPbHplKTMEajLNNB+XnNWjfGsEF26PEfV FNrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hhOZxTg9ZS92oWCsiokTn1r+jQPTfz+LQ3eLTmWBZxg=; b=5Hd9B5HiZCAIw4wn1LkEdzU2OM76W9gQVxdEISJhHOCdUQfhmoQYeEM13k30Vz2+rj s0LNy20SfJ8Wa4V+ooEHGuAmOAkJkQtvrZrHcccnGw77ozv/o6E/tebSvQUbRPzLQtTc A37hTDB0ofVwLun1N9+zZOFlSSjztvCOhswXUS5YyMbFQCgiKC7ZcFLYpl56q5aZbrIQ VoLxyazTMba07w5RCvUV5s+2HBLcUb2r5Aw4lwK46xz69bnjz292zAHgjZLTA1W7W63v 5z/q0A2Jw5O6cqLKttmwTa7mRbJ+TuBwWn3Umfx3RYE5WxhWrkb3lcl8JhWFwcPsC34w fRLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5314EEAI9/AoG+Zb2byO+wj4ar6aw8HjrQCz+1txuK6qRdKjqGCW uqynMjv0DKMp6se3w3PtwbJjvSWWMGHryNkcJEw1xA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwAURx15yM4vVEO7P38emUUOiGKPFPLCZc+1XNAm7vShHhqWREKx9OKgA8G3r82bvXcwfnh4+EyDxfynx7S5H4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:bb85:: with SMTP id y5mr1026098lje.207.1631212669656; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:37:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:37:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba72d005cb944bc5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 18:38:04 -0000 --000000000000ba72d005cb944bc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 4:51 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS2. > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 24., kedd 13:35 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > > > The draft as written does not actually provide the same utility as > . > > (Without the "default" attribute the "explicit" mode is not actually > supported.) > > > > The "with-defaults" mechanism works exactly the same no matter what > > the XML representation is used for. The mode used to write the data will > > correspond to the basic-mode with the same name. > > BALAZS2: I will add the report-all-tagged mode to the leaf includes-defau= lts. This will include the usage of default attribute in the instance data.= Will that make the attribute acceptable for you ? > > yes Andy > > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --000000000000ba72d005cb944bc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 4:51 AM Bal=C3= =A1zs Lengyel <balazs.len= gyel@ericsson.com> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail-m_3284591008950487515WordSection1">

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS2.

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> Sent: 2021. augusztus 24., kedd 13:35
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Len= gyel <b= alazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <<= a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com= >; NetMod WG <ne= tmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file in= clude-defaults leaf

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@er= icsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed.

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments a= s instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is the situation with default= s in the specific instance-data-set.

As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to sp= ecify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling us= ed for this specific instance data set.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The draft as written does not actually provide the same utility as <wit= h-defaults>.

(Without= the "default" attribute the "explicit" mode is not act= ually supported.)

=C2=A0

The "with-defaults= " mechanism works exactly the same no matter what

the XML representation is used for.=C2=A0 Th= e mode used to write the data will

correspond to the basic-mode with the same name.

BALAZS2: I will add the =
report-all-tagged mode to the leaf includes-defaults. =
This will include the usage of default attribute in the instance data. Will=
 that make the attribute acceptable for you ?

=


<= /div>
yes


Andy


=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent:= 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengy= el <bal= azs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com&g= t;; NetMod WG <netm= od@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file incl= ude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson= .com> wrote:

Hello Rob,

I think t= his won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections= 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain p=
artial data sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is important for m=
any use-cases.=C2=A0 This means you cannot say that a default value will or=
 must be included, as they might be omitted because they are not part of th=
e partial data set.
In a way it is difficult to separate =
between leaves that are missing because
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part o=
f the partial data-set
-They are omitted because they have t=
he default value and one of the trim or explicit options is used<=
/u>
If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used.
=C2=A0<=
/span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

I thought we already agreed th= ere cannot be a default or there is no way to

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">represent "no defaults added".

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0i= f basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default<= /u>

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 = Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify defaults in this case.<= u>

=C2=A0

<= div>

Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then t= here will be no defaults ever reported.

This mode means the server does not consider any node to be= a default and always returns

every node (if with-defaults used or not).

=C2=A0

This =
is the reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs

= =C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fro= m: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23.,= h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.= com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: = RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.= =C2=A0 I would still like to strength the description of the defaults.=C2= =A0 E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

=

=C2=A0

=

Hence, I have generated some pr= oposed alternative descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more = generically focussed only on the default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think t= hat we could define the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to= be =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I t= hink that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

In particular, I woul= d propose changing the descriptions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enum= eration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-a= ll {

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value= 1;

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descr= iption

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 any default values.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descript= ion

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and where=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= the actual value is the default value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be include= d.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data = nodes that have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value = is the default value SHOULD NOT be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the = actual value was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management a= pplication

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= /span>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defa= ults {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= ;The instance data set includes all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that= contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = trim {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 va= lue 2;

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de= scription

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set excludes all data nodes<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 th= at contain the schema default.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = explicit {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de= scription

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set may include some data nodes=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= that match the schema default and may exclude some

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes tha= t match the schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "This leaf provides an indication of how default data<= /span>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented w= ithin an instance data set, modelled on

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 6243.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the ins= tance data set represents.

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New&q= uot;;color:black">=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults a= ligns to the meaning of the

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set repre= sents operational data from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to= the definition of that

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Thanks,=

Rob=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Len= gyel <b= alazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
<= b>To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc= : NetMod WG <ne= tmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file in= clude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,=

Removing the =E2=80= =9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0=

Your in-use-values= is very specific to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operatio= nal values. It is not useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9C= documenting operational datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by ind= icating the includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain t= he value case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021= . j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <= ;netmod@ietf.org&g= t;
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf=

=C2=A0

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether defaul= t values are in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 834= 2:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to re= trieve nodes from <operational> always return the value=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use if the node exists, regardless of any default valu= e specified

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no = value is returned for a given node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 t= his implies that the node is not used by the device.

= =C2=A0

It was written this way because otherwise a cons= umer of operational data cannot differentiate between:=

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because it matches the default value specified = in the YANG module, and

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because = the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemo= n that would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps = it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).<= /span>

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cas= es, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default v= alue is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to co= ntain and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0<= /u>

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.= =C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2= =A0

leaf = in-use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnl= y if set to true, the absence of a value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance = data for a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used= rather than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified = by any corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement s= pecified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=C2=A0=

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-d= efault=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I= would think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the defau= lt =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0<= /p>

R= egards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <= ;andy@yumaworks.com= >
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwil= ton) <rwilton@cis= co.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@= ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file inc= lude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">On Fr= i, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean f= lag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering = out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solut= ion is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate = "default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present then it identifies the= basic-mode that was used to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or defa= ults were not added.

=C2=A0=

The "default" statement is a bug because there is = no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-mode= s are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Andy

=C2=A0

E.g., something along these lines:=

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 W= hen unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the = default value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default v= alue are not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0

Would this satisfy your concern?

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
S= ent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:<= /p>

=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Al=
l data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have=
 a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actu=
al value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 description
<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a defaul=
t defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value =
is the default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in=
cluded. However, if the actual value was set by
<= pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;<=
/u>
=C2=A0

The draft= is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this<= /u>

= leaf is too server-centric to ignore.=

=C2=A0

Consider the possibili= ty that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" m= ay not be correct.

=C2=A0

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema = will also

know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 Th= e solution is incomplete anyway because

=

the = presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<= /u>

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to = identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be r= emoved, but at least add an enum called "unknown".<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Andy

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08C0_01D7A5D0.DACC9460" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 87f8e65d-04dd-4634-7caf-08d973d73ad1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 21:17:29.0978 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 9GpgieX7h+og6/k4rf6o8djKbIWQPPZoTF1TpMvPn83E5HAxZTzdd4i4upWpEHxoyZOVxPqg2keZr9dTZLeccIvd1YDwNldkQgxwuJ+hPTU= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8172 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:17:52 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_08C0_01D7A5D0.DACC9460 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_08C1_01D7A5D0.DACCBB70" ------=_NextPart_001_08C1_01D7A5D0.DACCBB70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got this warning while running the web based idnits tool. = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ It might indicate some real problem, but it is impossible to understand = from the failure message, what it is. Regards Balazs =20 From: Mahesh Jethanandani =20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 20:15 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel Cc: netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error =20 I assume that this is during the submit process, and that you are not = running this offline. Submit a report to tools@ietf.org = and have them look at it. On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > wrote: =20 Hello, I am trying to check/submit a new version of my = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18. =20 The previous version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now = suddenly I get:=20 =20 =3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- = there may comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for = pre-RFC5378 work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the = Legal Provisions document at = https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how = to get rid of it? =20 I use xml2rfc. My draft includes: =20 =20 Help, Balazs =20 =20 --=20 Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist = Ericsson Hungary Ltd.=20 Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: = Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com =20 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod =20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_08C1_01D7A5D0.DACCBB70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I got this warning while = running the web based idnits tool. https://tools.ietf.org/tool= s/idnits/

It might indicate some = real problem, but it is impossible to understand from the failure = message, what it is.

Regards = Balazs

 

From: Mahesh Jethanandani = <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., = cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 20:15
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits = error

 

I assume = that this is during the submit process, and that you are not running = this offline. Submit a report to tools@ietf.org and have them = look at it.



On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.len= gyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

 

Hello,

I am trying to =
check/submit a new version of my =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.
&nbs=
p;
The previous =
version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now suddenly I get: =

 =

=3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was =
first submitted -- there =
may
     comments or warnings =
related to the use of a disclaimer for =
pre-RFC5378
     work that =
could not be issued because of this.  Please check the =
Legal
     Provisions document =
at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info =
to determine
     if you need =
the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not =
change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get =
rid of it?
 =

I use xml2rfc. My =
draft includes:
 
<rfc category=3D"std" =
ipr=3D"trust200902" =
docName=3D"draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18"><=
/span>
    <date =
year=3D"2021"/>
 
Help, =
Balazs
 =

 

-- 

Balazs = Lengyel           =          Senior = Specialist          &nb= sp;            = Ericsson Hungary Ltd. 

Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909         &nbs= p;    email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com=

 

____________= ___________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
<= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

<= /div>

 

Mahesh = Jethanandani

 

 

 

 

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for = pre-RFC5378 > work that could not be issued because of this. My experience is that this message is caused by hiccups of the idnits = tool in retrieving metadata. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-form= at/ certainly has no problems figuring that out. (The question is whether you are copying from/evolving from material = that was submitted before RFC 5378 went into force, in which case you = might need a different ipr=3D attribute. Most likely your text is not = that old! So this is a red herring.) 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08F2_01D7A5D3.DCE5D010" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f7a819e4-1977-4d1e-6b93-08d973da3c91 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 21:39:00.5296 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: D7J8ZUeu3UU4llz6MEnsDjMQJEZ0Z2Ptc+DZaMABElyGjFMsrDEVYDLMGYe+Y0Zidrf3Y0/Gnspde4k7ANhpcxte7D/vCf83daGEiwqhd9k= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8280 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:39:14 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_08F2_01D7A5D3.DCE5D010 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_08F3_01D7A5D3.DCE5D010" ------=_NextPart_001_08F3_01D7A5D3.DCE5D010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sadly tools@ietf.org returns with = =E2=80=9CUnknown To address=E2=80=9D Balazs =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel=20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 23:17 To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: netmod@ietf.org Subject: RE: [netmod] Unknown idnits error =20 I got this warning while running the web based idnits tool. = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ It might indicate some real problem, but it is impossible to understand = from the failure message, what it is. Regards Balazs =20 From: Mahesh Jethanandani >=20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 20:15 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: netmod@ietf.org =20 Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error =20 I assume that this is during the submit process, and that you are not = running this offline. Submit a report to tools@ietf.org = and have them look at it. =20 On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > wrote: =20 Hello, I am trying to check/submit a new version of my = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18. =20 The previous version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now = suddenly I get:=20 =20 =3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- = there may comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for = pre-RFC5378 work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the = Legal Provisions document at = https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how = to get rid of it? =20 I use xml2rfc. My draft includes: =20 =20 Help, Balazs =20 =20 --=20 Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist = Ericsson Hungary Ltd.=20 Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: = Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com =20 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod =20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_08F3_01D7A5D3.DCE5D010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sadly tools@ietf.org returns with = =E2=80=9CUnknown To = address=E2=80=9D

Balazs

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel =
Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k = 23:17
To: Mahesh Jethanandani = <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: = netmod@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [netmod] Unknown idnits = error

 

I got this = warning while running the web based idnits tool. https://tools.ietf.org/tool= s/idnits/

It might indicate some = real problem, but it is impossible to understand from the failure = message, what it is.

Regards = Balazs

 

From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com> =
Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k = 20:15
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error

 

I assume = that this is during the submit process, and that you are not running = this offline. Submit a report to tools@ietf.org and have them = look at it.

 

On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.len= gyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

 

Hello,

I am trying to =
check/submit a new version of my =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.
&nbs=
p;
The previous =
version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now suddenly I get: =

 =

=3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was =
first submitted -- there =
may
     comments or warnings =
related to the use of a disclaimer for =
pre-RFC5378
     work that =
could not be issued because of this.  Please check the =
Legal
     Provisions document =
at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info =
to determine
     if you need =
the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not =
change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get =
rid of it?
 =

I use xml2rfc. My =
draft includes:
 
<rfc category=3D"std" =
ipr=3D"trust200902" =
docName=3D"draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18"><=
/span>
    <date =
year=3D"2021"/>
 
Help, =
Balazs
 =

 

-- 

Balazs = Lengyel           =          Senior = Specialist          &nb= sp;            = Ericsson Hungary Ltd. 

Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909         &nbs= p;    email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com=

 

____________= ___________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
<= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

<= /div>

 

Mahesh = Jethanandani

 

 

 

 

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 73ba664a-fec8-4211-5223-08d973da8382 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 21:40:59.5499 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: aQ5JemsYFLhVVF4KUTyHqpMXmX83Ye/LKJPMdYyy8OJIhL4N59ULghMhzHu3H6hUcf6i6Z6RekK4ULxhWteZoxB/MhPJ3orAY/NY0T5bErk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8169 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:41:08 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_08F9_01D7A5D4.23BA7130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AFAIK I did not copy any old material. Balazs -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann =20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 9., cs=C3=BCt=C3=B6rt=C3=B6k 23:25 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel Cc: netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error On 2021-09-09, at 19:12, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = wrote: >=20 > Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- there may > comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for = pre-RFC5378 > work that could not be issued because of this. My experience is that this message is caused by hiccups of the idnits = tool in retrieving metadata. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-for= mat/ certainly has no problems figuring that out. (The question is whether you are copying from/evolving from material = that was submitted before RFC 5378 went into force, in which case you = might need a different ipr=3D attribute. Most likely your text is not = that old! So this is a red herring.) 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text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <163122481172.12278.15353335399484551135@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:00:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:00:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Instance Data File Format Authors : Balazs Lengyel Benoit Claise Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2021-09-09 Abstract: There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable. This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data, which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and annotates it with metadata. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:09:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C71143A05DE for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iOJcoSyt9Fgm for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 285F53A045B for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5CpR1HnZz2xNk; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:09:18 +0200 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652918158.671929-e937f8a73e80d713e619893711e777cf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D66C637-2E13-41E9-BCBA-E67057837B50@tzi.org> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:09:36 -0000 On 2021-09-09, at 23:40, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = wrote: >=20 > AFAIK I did not copy any old material. Balazs Indeed, so you can ignore this message. > Sadly tools@ietf.org returns with =E2=80=9CUnknown To address=E2=80=9D I think tools-discuss@ietf.org was meant here. But I don=E2=80=99t think new light will be generated there, except for = the observation that the idnits backend is up for some re-integration = work, so hiccups like this are currently not unlikely. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 9 19:58:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E45A3A149A for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:57:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FFCu1zT9vl1k for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 982093A1496 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id l18so807060lji.12 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 19:57:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ffB3nTme0iX0JYCuZT3KWHI7jBzqF7cUNJwVnh8WClQ=; b=KbRr3QEO3CxviHoGzyuI9oStLsgYSUWmyQi+mYtuzUDo647d09bwpVEZJ1Y/B1vYx9 QfTUaZyYxObJ9vpnmz0Qt/wcqTZsFeTqxkPc9X3MHcXFUtM2xytGm/qdcSKV6FOTGBC1 RIQzhyaDhbcsfipecaoaeV+RipCsJ8wReVI1eREootdnJhCMNIDA8Smy3AAmN0InwsEH maYiWtE0kq2Dwj6OsfEy2mi5PKsvXVKvKd9B1LFQ+2Ssk5Eh3sfv+sgjPZ/Vo5+xlMfY QFQMMV7qJh1mvPTZBRcP6Xz7h8eXO1dDloCHUy2tMih4VZgBEmZDCadrwctyWMyNj+2w cm6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ffB3nTme0iX0JYCuZT3KWHI7jBzqF7cUNJwVnh8WClQ=; b=IySCpKPkgAWIM1852ElEkOzyzFaDIu0McF3Slf5am352+tK0S3KC+5Il8k9k9KCqlx z4x2/8serGSpcVYdk5G3az8l+4eYIUkH0Cx0+vjQo9i8sXS2QY1Pr6C+8kO6soi7kaYa MmPR/qfcuNB1oNuS3YGI3w/Q/djelKlm7wrQcODcxcrbwSryfBs2HDIqkEU6rJoMxxsz +b/ukdkS/2u3PG1PlCHfBCdIKruxyolr9uDJgq6iX94tRtPVBcmuIA/pUsy98hc7pFrz nsWpoPf6VjRoAg80aDrl2wGFa+0m/g3oQJFm/gEKewZneMXj4qi8NJe3s9F6UmK1+giU Rqhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5329XVnImnyISfkzd/NYorrlPKBFznBYWVIARIB8XzxXJCu8F7p2 tEPI1jl6RKtJpX9crom3c0VbxuWfOnro6OeFzqIM36tOSME= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1W3DrFMtZc1sHjJxigcLrzz3srMMMa6x8YHUKZGo61J7p6NA4UMF96JkP8qEtUtY0+/8W5xuLA8YOk3leJjI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:bb85:: with SMTP id y5mr2396906lje.207.1631242658445; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 19:57:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:57:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033115e05cb9b47fd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 02:57:59 -0000 --00000000000033115e05cb9b47fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS3. > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. > > IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change > approach. > > BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2= =80=9D > =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by t= he server=E2=80=9D > > These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I > would like to stick with including text here. > > > I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf "with-defaults-mode" typedef cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already know how to deal with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; } I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. Andy leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 > > } > > } > > description > > "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, > > thus any data node MAY be absent. > > > > Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a > > full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set > > includes data nodes that have a default defined and > > where the actual value is the same as the default value. > > > > Data nodes that have no default values should always > > be included. > > Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual > > value is not equal to the schema defined default > > should always be included."; > > > > > > AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? > > Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default > > are not relevant to this object. > > BALAZS3: OK > > > > reference > > "RFC 6243 : Wit= h-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; > > } > > > > The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data > set is to include > > the "default" attribute in each default node. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 > > This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current > solution). > > BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. > > Here is the current proposed text: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values, if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set."; > > } > > enum report-all-tagged { > > value 2; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set. > > Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL > > contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is equal to the schema default > > value SHALL NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 4; > > description > > "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the > > schema default value SHALL NOT be included. > > However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF > > client or other management application by the way > > of an explicit management operation, the data node > > SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by > > the instance-data-set."; > > } > > } > > description > > "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default > > data. This leaf indicates whether default data is > > included. > > > > As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data > > sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or > > leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set > > does not intend to include the data node independent > > of default handling."; > > reference > > "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF > > RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; > > } > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --00000000000033115e05cb9b47fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3= =A1zs Lengyel <balazs.len= gyel@ericsson.com> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail-m_659624776897957250WordSection1">

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS3.

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
= Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Le= ngyel <= balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <= rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <n= etmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file i= nclude-defaults leaf

= =C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3.<= /u>

IMO the subsections should = be cited instead of the copy-and-change approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 secti= ons contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilit= ies=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by the server=E2=80=9D

These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use case= s, so I would like to stick with including text here.<= /p>

=C2=A0



I guess I do not underst= and why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf "with-defaults-m= ode" typedef
cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice.=C2=A0= Applications that already know how to deal
with defaults accordi= ng to RFC 6243 should be supported.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0}

I do not see any text in this typedef that is= server-specific.


Andy

<= pre style=3D"break-before:page">=C2=A0=C2=A0 le= af includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be i=
ncluded independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 value 2;
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de=
scription
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0"Data nodes that have a default defined and where<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actu=
al value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined an=
d where
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 included. However, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client =
or other management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit managemen=
t operation the
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
<=
/u>=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "As instance-data-sets MAY contain inco=
mplete data sets,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
thus any data node MAY be absent.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 full data set, this leaf specifi=
es whether the data set
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 includes data nodes that have a default defined and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the sa=
me as the default value.
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Da=
ta nodes that have no default values should always
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be included.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have a default value, but th=
e actual
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value is=
 not equal to the schema defined default
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should always be included.";
<=
/u>=C2=A0
=C2=A0
AB: The last paragraph should be remove=
d or changed. Why are these nodes special?
Nodes that are actua=
lly present and do not contain the YANG default
<=
pre style=3D"break-before:page">are not relevan=
t to this object.
BALAZS3: OK=

=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 r=
eference
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 6243:=
 With-defaults Capability for NETCONF";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
u>

=C2=A0

The best way to indicate a representati= on of a YANG default in the data set is to include

<= div>

the "default" attribute in each defaul= t node.=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#secti= on-6

This actually w= orks for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current solution).=

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf.=

Here is the current proposed text:

---------------------= ---------------------------------------

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type e= numeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum repor= t-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0val= ue 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descr= iption

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 any default values, if the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered b= y the instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report= -all-tagged=C2=A0 {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent= of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values if the data node

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= is covered by the instance-data-set.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Any nodes considered to= be default data SHALL

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0contain a 'default' attribute s= et to 'true'";

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that h= ave a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is equal to = the schema default=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0value SHALL NOT be included.&q= uot;;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 4;

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes = where the actual value is equal to the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0schema default = value SHALL NOT be included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, if the actual valu= e was set by a NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0client or other management applic= ation by the way

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of an explicit management operation, th= e data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SHALL be included, if the data node is cov= ered by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "An instance-data-set may contain or= exclude default

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0data. This leaf indicates whether default data is

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0included. <= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As instance-data-s= ets MAY contain incomplete data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0leaf-li= st MAY be absent because the instance-data-set

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0does not intend to include the da= ta node independent

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of default handling.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 reference

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &qu= ot;RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

-----------------------------------------= -------------------

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1= zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I removed the default value for inc= ludes-defaults as you proposed.

=C2= =A0

I am not sure I understand the = rest of the comments as instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is the = situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set.

As this is not a live server request/reply situatio= n we do not want to specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to s= pecify the handling used for this specific instance data set.=

=C2=A0

R= egards Balazs

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 2= 3., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericss= on.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <= netmod@ietf.org>= ;
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<= u>

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug = 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote= :

Hell= o Rob,

I think this won=E2=80=99t f= ly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we state= :

=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=
=E2=80=9D
Which is important for many use-cases.=C2=
=A0 This means you cannot say that a default value will or must be included=
, as they might be omitted because they are not part of the partial data se=
t.
In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves th=
at are missing because
-They are not part of the partial dat=
a-set
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have the default value =
and one of the trim or explicit options is used
<= pre>If this b= ecomes important the repo= rt-all options shall be used.
=C2=A0<=
/u>

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=

I thought we already agreed there cannot be a d= efault or there is no way to

represent "no defaults added".

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Note that "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mode=3Dex= plicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 Only report-all-t= agged will clearly identify defaults in this case.

<= div>

=C2=A0

Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no d= efaults ever reported.

T= his mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and al= ways returns

every node = (if with-defaults used or not).

=C2=A0

This is the reason I u=
sed the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs<=
/pre>

=C2=A0<= /u>

Andy

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton= (rwilton) <rwilt= on@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 = 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy= Bierman <andy@y= umaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-= instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I would sti= ll like to strength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC 6243 u= ses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative d= escriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed= only on the default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could define = the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplici= t=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this effec= tively what the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose changing= the descriptions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-def= aults {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= ;All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default= values.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Da= ta nodes that have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual val= ue is the default value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have= a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default = value SHOULD NOT be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value wa= s set by

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= data node SHOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data= set includes all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the schem= a default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= /span>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &q= uot;The instance data set excludes all data nodes

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain the = schema default.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = }

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= "The instance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that match = the schema default and may exclude some

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "This leaf provides an indication of how default data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an instan= ce data set, modelled on

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 RFC 6243.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data set = represents.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g., i= f the instance data set represents configuration,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the meani= ng of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default= -handling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational dat= a from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of th= at

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore in R= FC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-t= op:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsso= n.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilto= n@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <<= a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org>=
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80= =9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very specific = to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not = useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operationa= l datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the include= s-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (ii) wil= l not.

R= egards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: = Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd= 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel= @ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0<= /p>

H= i Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

So, the reas= on that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use is beca= use of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from <oper= ational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use i= f the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned for a gi= ven node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the node is= not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It = was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data canno= t differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present be= cause it matches the default value specified in the YANG module, and=

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because the server has failed to retur= n it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have provided thi= s value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is = not implemented and is a missing deviation).

=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node= does not necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wante= d the instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report thi= s data.

=C2=A0

I think that this be= haviour could be captured by a single leaf.=C2=A0 Another way of articulati= ng this would be:

=C2=A0

leaf in-use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;=

=C2=A0 default = false;

= =C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a= value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data for a given data node implies t= hat the

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used rather than implicitly taking the<= /span>

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Consolas">=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified by any corresponding<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=80= =9D;

}

=C2=A0

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sur= e whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently spe= cified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be e= ntirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July 2= 021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod= WG <netmod@ietf.or= g>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject:= Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wil= ton (rwilton) <rw= ilton@cisco.com> wrote:

<= div>

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I sugge= sted this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My= point being that automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t = always the right thing to do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2= =A0

The solution is simple.=

Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statem= ent.

=C2=A0

I= f the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to in= clude defaults.

If not then the information = is either not known, not applicable, or defaults were not added.<= /u>

= =C2=A0

The "defaul= t" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and= no camp has ever

been able to convince the = others that theirs is right.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy<= u>

=C2=A0

<= div>

E.g., something along these lines:

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean= ;

=C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 descr= iption

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduc= e the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or set to true, data n= odes that have a default defined and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the default value are excluded from = the content

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 W= hen set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in the content dat= a.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0<= u>

Would this satisfy your concern?

=C2=A0=

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0<= /p>

= =C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org>= On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
= To: NetMod WG <= netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file incl= ude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

<= div>

= Hi,

=C2=A0

The modu= le has this object:

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-def=
aults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type=
 enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descript=
ion
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included indepen=
dent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and where=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Da=
ta nodes that have a default defined and where
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management a=
pplication
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit =
management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOU=
LD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 default trim;
=C2=A0<=
/span>

The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF= standards, but this

leaf is too server-cent= ric to ignore.

=C2=A0

Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NE= TCONF server.

This data may not be known so = the default of "trim" may not be correct.

=C2=A0

IMO this leaf is noise becaus= e any tool that knows the schema will also

k= now the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default i= s not enough.

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tag= ged" mode must be used to identify defaults.

<= /div>

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called &quo= t;unknown".

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Andy<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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Prefix must be unique across the entire IETF, everything from every WG, everything not from a WG, so while brevity is attractive, I see them as belonging with modules that will be widely used, widely known - interfaces comes to mind. I do not see this in this category, > > I have yet to see a YANG doctor approve of a two-character prefix but I have seen opposition. There is no problem to add longer prefixes. "tg:" -> "nttg:", "ta:" -> "ntta:" where "nt" stands for network test. The intention with this draft is to provide "widely used, widely known" modules. The equivalent of ping and tcpdump functionality in YANG terms but also very deterministic and precise method for specification of test traffic for the dataplane. If the IETF and the authors manage to pull this off these modules will be the base modules augmented by vendors of network test equipment and very likely regular networking equipment will have implementation for verification and troubleshooting purposes. There is reference code that implements RFC2544 as a simple python script using the model specified in the draft - https://github.com/vlvassilev/litenc/blob/master/tntapi/example/ietf-network-interconnect-tester/rfc2544.py and a reference device side implementation with open-source and open-hardware design  - https://www.hackster.io/lightside-instruments/network-programmability-kit-for-ultra96-07435c significant part of this work was done at IETF Hackathon events. /Vladimir > > The author's response was to do it later n the process, that it would mean changing code. Well the later in the process the more code there will be to change, more work, more mistakes from anyone involved.. > > There are other glitches in the YANG module but I see this as the one to fix before considering any other. > > Tom Petch > > > Send your comments to this list @bmwg@ietf.org > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is [0] > > Al > bmwg co-chair > > [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vassilev-bmwg-network-interconnect-tester-06.txt > From nobody Fri Sep 10 04:56:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35A53A0ADE for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9860c424-2f39-4013-ecc6-08d974520250 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2021 11:56:22.3389 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Y+WcEqu579UW2Lw9oZvmsTkr45zoxQhwcDaBXqnyS+sAeM/iNLizIpgfzx9OPSOA2lK/b3TktetEvRa8gaKLwA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8PR07MB7382 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:56:30 -0000 Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16?=0A= =0A= Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that =0A= 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..'=0A= =0A= Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to zero= or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rather t= he leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessing t= he leaf.=0A= =0A= I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950.=0A= =0A= Tom petch= From nobody Fri Sep 10 05:14:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3133A0BDC for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 05:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cMzzHzxNsGnu for ; 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One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that a client cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' and 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In practice, though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained. /js On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote: > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16? > > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..' > > Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rather the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessing the leaf. > > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950. > > Tom petch > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Sep 10 05:15:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CC23A0BFF for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0978_01D7A64E.4899FC30" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2f0f30a0-0842-45b7-9729-08d97454a8a1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2021 12:15:20.4295 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: d41nmO8fWWT025A12NS0fYsWfRNh/VUiLNVAUFyS+u7FCVdVHV01D4gF6at28lCEFZ2x0sVSRK83fMdyog/gEL1kBg+3anD5IwIgLNy9znI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8278 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:15:57 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0978_01D7A64E.4899FC30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0979_01D7A64E.4899FC30" ------=_NextPart_001_0979_01D7A64E.4899FC30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See below as BALAZS4 =20 From: Andy Bierman =20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG = Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, See below as BALAZS3. =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach. BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata = retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual = data nodes set by the server=E2=80=9D These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I would like to stick with including text here. =20 =20 =20 I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf = "with-defaults-mode" typedef cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already = know how to deal with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. =20 =20 leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; } =20 I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. Andy BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I = avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: * It references = RFC 6243; = Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data = retrieval, capabilities) * The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report = default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. * report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML = attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding * I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. Is this acceptable? =20 =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 } } description "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, thus any data node MAY be absent. =20 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set includes data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the same as the default value. =20 Data nodes that have no default values should always be included. Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual value is not equal to the schema defined default should always be included."; =20 =20 AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default are not relevant to this object. BALAZS3: OK =20 reference "RFC 6243 : = With-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; } =20 The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data = set is to include the "default" attribute in each default node. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution). BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. Here is the current proposed text: ------------------------------------------------------------ leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values, if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set."; } enum report-all-tagged { value 2; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set. Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; } =20 enum trim { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is equal to the schema default =20 value SHALL NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 4; description "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the=20 schema default value SHALL NOT be included.=20 However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF=20 client or other management application by the way=20 of an explicit management operation, the data node=20 SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by=20 the instance-data-set."; } } description "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default=20 data. This leaf indicates whether default data is=20 included.=20 =20 As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data=20 sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or=20 leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set=20 does not intend to include the data node independent=20 of default handling."; reference "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; }=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed. =20 I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as = instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is = the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set. As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to = specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the = handling used for this specific instance data set. =20 Regards Balazs =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 =20 =20 I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to represent "no defaults added". =20 Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a = leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly = identify defaults in this case. =20 Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults = ever reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; Andy Bierman >; NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0979_01D7A64E.4899FC30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

See below as BALAZS4

 

From: Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., = p=C3=A9ntek 4:57
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On = Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello = Andy,

See below = as BALAZS3.

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 25., szerda 18:29
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi,

 <= /o:p>

Here is the = latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section = 3.

IMO the = subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about = =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by the = server=E2=80=9D

These parts are not relevant for many of the = instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with including text = here.

 <= /o:p>

 

 

I = guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at = leaf "with-defaults-mode" typedef

cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice.  = Applications that already know how to deal

with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be = supported.

 

 

     leaf includes-defaults = {

      =    type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

     }

 

I = do not see any text in this typedef that is = server-specific.

Andy

BALAZS4: =C2=A0While I generally agree that = duplication is a bad practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode = because:

=C2=B7        =
It =
references RFC 6243; Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references =
(server, data retrieval, capabilities)
=C2=B7        =
The =
typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report default =
data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading =
default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not =
reported.
=C2=B7        =
report-all-tagged description contains =
=E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON =
encoding
=C2=B7        =
I prefer to =
use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum =
descriptions.
Is this acceptable?
 

 

   leaf includes-defaults =
{
         =
type enumeration {
        &nb=
sp;  enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;    value 1;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        &nb=
sp;      "All data nodes SHOULD be =
included independent of
        &nb=
sp;        any default =
values.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, 3.1
        &nb=
sp;  }
        &nb=
sp;  enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;    value 2;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        =
       "Data nodes that have a =
default defined and where
        &nb=
sp;        the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;        NOT be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.2
        &nb=
sp;  }
        &nb=
sp;  enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;    value 3;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        &nb=
sp;      "Data nodes that have a default =
defined and where
        &nb=
sp;        the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;        included. However, if the =
actual value was set by
        &nb=
sp;        a NETCONF client or other =
management application
        &nb=
sp;        by the way of an explicit =
management operation the
        &nb=
sp;        data node SHOULD be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.3
        &nb=
sp;  }
         =
}
         =
description
        &nb=
sp;  "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =
sets,
        &nb=
sp;    thus any data node MAY be =
absent.
 
        &nb=
sp;    Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain =
a
        &nb=
sp;    full data set, this leaf specifies whether the =
data set
        &nb=
sp;    includes data nodes that have a default defined =
and
        &nb=
sp;    where the actual value is the same as the default =
value.
 
        &nb=
sp;    Data nodes that have no default values should =
always
        &nb=
sp;    be included.
        &nb=
sp;    Data nodes that have a default value, but the =
actual
        &nb=
sp;    value is not equal to the schema defined =
default
        &nb=
sp;    should always be =
included.";
 
 
AB: The last =
paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes =
special?
Nodes that are actually present and do not contain =
the YANG default
are not relevant =
to this object.
BALAZS3: OK
 
         =
reference
        &nb=
sp;  "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for =
NETCONF";
       =
}

 <= /o:p>

The best = way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data set is to = include

the = "default" attribute in each default node. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6=

This = actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution).

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to = includes-defaults leaf.

Here is the current proposed = text:

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

    leaf includes-defaults = {

      type enumeration = {

        enum = report-all {

         =  value 1;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

        &= nbsp;     any default values, if the data node =

        &= nbsp;     is covered by the = instance-data-set.";

        = }

        enum = report-all-tagged  {

        &= nbsp; value 2;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

        &= nbsp;     any default values if the data node =

        &= nbsp;     is covered by the = instance-data-set.

        &= nbsp;     Any nodes considered to be default data = SHALL

      =         contain a 'default' = attribute set to 'true'";

        = }       

        e= num trim {

        &= nbsp; value 3;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "Data nodes that have a default defined and = where

        &= nbsp;     the actual value is equal to the schema = default 

        &= nbsp;     value SHALL NOT be = included.";

        = }

        enum = explicit {

        &= nbsp; value 4;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to = the

        &= nbsp;     schema default value SHALL NOT be = included.

        &= nbsp;     However, if the actual value was set = by a NETCONF

        &= nbsp;     client or other management = application by the way

        &= nbsp;     of an explicit management operation, = the data node

        &= nbsp;     SHALL be included, if the data node = is covered by

        &= nbsp;     the = instance-data-set.";

        = }

      = }

      = description

        = "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default =

        &= nbsp; data. This leaf indicates whether default data is =

        &= nbsp; included.

        &= nbsp; 

        &= nbsp; As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =

        &= nbsp; sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or =

        &= nbsp; leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set =

        &= nbsp; does not intend to include the data node independent =

        &= nbsp; of default handling.";

      = reference

        = "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for = NETCONF

         = RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";

    }

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue, Aug = 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Andy,

In the -17 = I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed.

 <= /o:p>

I am not = sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does = not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single = leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific = instance-data-set.

As this is = not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to specify a = basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling used = for this specific instance data set.

 <= /o:p>

Regards = Balazs

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Rob,

I think = this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections = 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data =
files MAY contain partial data =
sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is =
important for many use-cases.  This means you cannot say that a =
default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because =
they are not part of the partial data =
set.
In a way it =
is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing =
because
-        They are not =
part of the partial data-set
-        They are =
omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or =
explicit options is used
If this =
becomes important the report-all =
options =
shall be used.
 =

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I thought = we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to

represent = "no defaults added".

 <= /o:p>

Note that = "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, = since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be = set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify = defaults in this case.

 <= /o:p>

Also note = that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever = reported.

This mode = means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always = returns

every node = (if with-defaults used or not).

 <= /o:p>

This is the =
reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards =
Balazs

 <= /o:p>

Andy

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to = strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses = MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: = 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address = Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the = use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for = the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value = case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate = whether default values are in use is because of this definition of = operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a = consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)          = ;     This value is not = present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)          = ;    This value is not present = because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., = perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not = available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and = is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of = a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in = effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain = and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured = by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would = be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we = need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in = the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July = 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: = Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default = trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the = basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the information is either not = known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug = because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in = deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs = is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       =
type enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default =
values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be =
included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       =
}
       =
default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

<= /blockquote>
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[IPv6:2001:1488:fffe:6:a88f:7eff:fed2:45f8] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:fffe:6:a88f:7eff:fed2:45f8]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1476145B3F for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:18:12 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1631276293; bh=IW1R7GNBM8F5IJNWOOTlcar2Gu/sZH4XSjg/hO28A7s=; h=To:From:Date; b=ksM+aIroDIXu0ZjhrBBjhlii7c2X1wNd9UmtQDpVkNCbXfB8lNoiOLXtIXGfqg4TI U0/sSohwxvm6NM3PNQgDstdMxz9d3AEIKJyGFdBZQPHfr71HWLxp1HsDHMUGQKtJ56 9IoLDO3rkRh8mykfsI0LP9e8+buWbNP4QnxUrYXg= To: netmod@ietf.org References: From: Ladislav Lhotka Organization: CZ.NIC Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:18:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:18:22 -0000 On 10. 09. 21 13:56, tom petch wrote: > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16? > > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..' Without the context, I'd guess it means that the value isn't set and has no default. As you wrote, YANG has no NULL. Lada > > Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rather the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessing the leaf. > > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950. > > Tom petch > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Fri Sep 10 06:22:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C0C3A0A00; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:22:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: lberger@labn.net, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163128016523.10467.5005323660827112818@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:22:45 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] netmod - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 112 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:22:46 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Lou Berger, a Chair of the netmod working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Network Modeling Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: netconf teas detnet Key participant conflict: raw ipsecme manet People who must be present: Lou Berger Joel Jaeggli Kent Watsen Robert Wilton Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Sep 10 08:52:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02A03A0791 for ; 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Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:51:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:51:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fcaa1705cba616ee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:51:57 -0000 --000000000000fcaa1705cba616ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > See below as BALAZS4 > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS3. > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. > > IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change > approach. > > BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2= =80=9D > =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by t= he server=E2=80=9D > > These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I > would like to stick with including text here. > > > > > > > > I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf > "with-defaults-mode" typedef > > cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already know > how to deal > > with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. > > > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > } > > > > I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. > > Andy > > BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I > avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: > > =C2=B7 It references RFC 6243 ; Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, ca= pabilities) > > =C2=B7 The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to rep= ort default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. > > =C2=B7 report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribu= te=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding > > =C2=B7 I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. > > Is this acceptable? > > > > The operation uses the with-defaults parameter directly. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8526#section-3.1.1.2 IMO this operation should be consistent with . Andy > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 > > } > > } > > description > > "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, > > thus any data node MAY be absent. > > > > Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a > > full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set > > includes data nodes that have a default defined and > > where the actual value is the same as the default value. > > > > Data nodes that have no default values should always > > be included. > > Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual > > value is not equal to the schema defined default > > should always be included."; > > > > > > AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? > > Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default > > are not relevant to this object. > > BALAZS3: OK > > > > reference > > "RFC 6243 : Wit= h-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; > > } > > > > The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data > set is to include > > the "default" attribute in each default node. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 > > This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current > solution). > > BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. > > Here is the current proposed text: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values, if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set."; > > } > > enum report-all-tagged { > > value 2; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set. > > Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL > > contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is equal to the schema default > > value SHALL NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 4; > > description > > "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the > > schema default value SHALL NOT be included. > > However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF > > client or other management application by the way > > of an explicit management operation, the data node > > SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by > > the instance-data-set."; > > } > > } > > description > > "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default > > data. This leaf indicates whether default data is > > included. > > > > As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data > > sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or > > leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set > > does not intend to include the data node independent > > of default handling."; > > reference > > "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF > > RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; > > } > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --000000000000fcaa1705cba616ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

See below as BALAZS4

=C2=A0

From: An= dy Bierman <andy= @yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4= :57
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
C= c: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: R= e: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf includes-defaults {

Andy

BALAZS4: =C2=A0While I generally agree that dupl= ication is a bad practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It references RFC 6243; Section 3<=
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=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=
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odes to report default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g.,=
 UC2 Preloading default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not report=
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<=
span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(237,125,49)">=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descripti=
ons.
I=
s this acceptable?
=C2=A0



The <get-data> operation uses = the with-defaults parameter directly.

=C2=A0
=
IMO this operation=C2=A0should be consistent with <get-data>.


Andy

=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf include=
s-defaults {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included i=
ndependent of
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
= 
=C2=A0<=
u>
AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 enum trim {
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 va=
lue 2;
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0"=
;Data nodes that have a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value =
is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";<=
/u>
=C2=
=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and wher=
e
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 inclu=
ded. However, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or oth=
er management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management oper=
ation the
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete da=
ta sets,
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 thus any=
 data node MAY be absent.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 P=
roviding the instance-data-set intends to contain a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 full data set, this leaf specifies whethe=
r the data set
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in=
cludes data nodes that have a default defined and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the same as the=
 default value.
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes =
that have no default values should always
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be included.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value is not equa=
l to the schema defined default
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should always be included.";
=C2=A0=

=C2=A0
AB: The last paragraph should be removed or change=
d. Why are these nodes special?
Nodes that are actually present=
 and do not contain the YANG default
are not relevant to this=
 object.
BALAZS3: OK
=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reference=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 6243: With-def=
aults Capability for NETCONF";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0

<= div>

The best way to indicate a representation of a Y= ANG default in the data set is to include

the "default" attribute in each default node.= =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 lea= f includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumerat= ion {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= /span>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any d= efault values, if the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered by the instan= ce-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all-tagged= =C2=A0 {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 va= lue 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 desc= ription

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 any default values if the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered b= y the instance-data-set.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Any nodes considered to be default = data SHALL

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0contain a 'default' attribute set to 't= rue'";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a def= ault defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is equal to the schem= a default=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0value SHALL NOT be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 4;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes where the= actual value is equal to the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0schema default value SHA= LL NOT be included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, if the actual value was set= by a NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0client or other management application = by the way

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of an explicit management operation, the data= node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SHALL be included, if the data node is covered b= y

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the instance-data-set.";

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "An instance-data-set may contain or exclu= de default

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0data. This leaf indicates whether default data is

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0included. =

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As instance-data-sets= MAY contain incomplete data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0leaf-list = MAY be absent because the instance-data-set

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0does not intend to include the data = node independent

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0of default handling.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 reference

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

--------------------------------------------= ----------------

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults= as you proposed.

=C2=A0<= /u>

I am not sure I understand the rest of the co= mments as instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-m= ode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is the situation with d= efaults in the specific instance-data-set.

As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want= to specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handl= ing used for this specific instance data set.

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs=

=C2=A0

From: = Andy Bierman <an= dy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5= =91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject:= Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17= AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:<= /p>

Hello Rob,=

I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we state:<= /p>

=
=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D=

Which is important for many use-cases.=C2=A0 This means you=
 cannot say that a default value will or must be included, as they might be=
 omitted because they are not part of the partial data set.
In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing bec=
ause
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part of the partial data-set
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have the default value and one of the =
trim or explicit options is used
If this becomes importan=
t the report-all=
 optio=
ns shall be used.
=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or the= re is no way to

represen= t "no defaults added".

=C2=A0

Note tha= t "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since= a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 Only report-all-tagged will cl= early identify defaults in this case.

=C2=A0

Al= so note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever= reported.

This mode mea= ns the server does not consider any node to be a default and always returns=

every node (if with-def= aults used or not).

=C2= =A0

This is the reason I used the SHO=
ULD word.
Regards Balazs
=

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.co= m>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman &l= t;andy@yumaworks.co= m>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-fi= le include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi Ba= lazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I would still like to st= rength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rat= her than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, = that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could define the =E2=80= =9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D= , since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this effectively wha= t the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose changing the descrip= tions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data no= des SHOULD be included independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&quo= t;;

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes tha= t have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the de= fault value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default d= efined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD= NOT be

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by= the way of an explicit management operation the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node S= HOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set include= s all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the schema default.= =E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The inst= ance data set excludes all data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain the schema defau= lt.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The i= nstance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that match the schema d= efault and may exclude some

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match the schema defau= lt.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "This= leaf provides an indication of how default data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an instance data set,= modelled on

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC = 6243.

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Interpretat= ion of the use of defaults depends on the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data set represent= s.

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g., if the i= nstance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default-han= dling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational data f= rom the

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ope= rational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of th= at

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore in R= FC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-t= op:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsso= n.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilto= n@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <<= a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org>=
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80= =9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very specific = to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not = useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operationa= l datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the include= s-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (ii) wil= l not.

R= egards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: = Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd= 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel= @ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0<= /p>

H= i Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

So, the reas= on that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use is beca= use of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from <oper= ational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use i= f the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned for a gi= ven node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the node is= not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It = was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data canno= t differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This= value is not present because it matches the default value specified in the= YANG module, and

= (ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is no= t present because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g.,= perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not avai= lable, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a mi= ssing deviation).

=C2=A0

So, I thin= k that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean = that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data documen= t to be able to contain and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0

I think that this behaviour could be captured b= y a single leaf.=C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:=

=C2=A0

leaf in-use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 instance data for a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0nod= e is not used rather than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default v= alue specified by any corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80= =99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;<= /p>

}

=C2=A0

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2= =80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but = if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., w= ithout the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

From: A= ndy Bierman <and= y@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: R= ob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Le= ngyel <= balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-in= stance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> w= rote:

Andy,<= u>

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking= that a boolean flag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automat= ically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to= do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solution is simple.

Get rid of t= he inappropriate "default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present the= n it identifies the basic-mode that was used to include defaults.=

If not then the information is either not known, not = applicable, or defaults were not added.

=

=C2= =A0

The "default" statement is a b= ug because there is no default basic-mode.

A= ll of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever=

been able to convince the others that theirs is ri= ght.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Andy

= =C2=A0

E.g., something alo= ng these lines:

=C2=A0

leaf exclude= -defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

= =C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the co= ntent data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a def= ault defined and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where t= he actual value is the default value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data= nodes with default value are not filtered, and

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D=

}

=C2=A0

Would this sati= sfy your concern?

=C2=A0

Regards,Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of A= ndy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <= netmod@ietf.org>= ;
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

= =C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {<= u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum re=
port-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data =
nodes that have a default defined and where
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 valu=
e 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes tha=
t have a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 th=
e actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management o=
peration the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be includ=
ed.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defau=
lt trim;
=C2=A0
The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards,=
 but this

leaf is too server-centric to ig= nore.

=C2=A0

<= div>

= Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF serve= r.

This data may not be known so the default= of "trim" may not be correct.

=C2= =A0

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool = that knows the schema will also

know the YAN= G defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enoug= h.

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" m= ode must be used to identify defaults.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">IMO t= his leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown&q= uot;.

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

Andy

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=
<= /div>
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 85c9a3b9-8eef-4778-3b5b-08d97474ea1f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2021 16:06:14.1295 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OFnswQUcm18NiZ7vnzyTjjy7/vTqCPM+EfVRcqSeVArqsBCNsRYEpc46B6qHysH6L+F2pHlysgT0BbGj+FDRQg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB5382 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:06:35 -0000 From: J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder =0A= Sent: 10 September 2021 13:14=0A= =0A= I guess the description should be worded as=0A= =0A= "This leaf does not exist if ..."=0A= =0A= instead of talking about NULL, a concept that does not exist in the=0A= YANG language and the protocols.=0A= =0A= One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that a client=0A= cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' and=0A= 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In practice,=0A= though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Juergen, Lada=0A= =0A= Thank you for the prompt responses. This is an I-D that has been to the IE= SG although the announcement has yet to appear, which makes me coy about sa= ying which it is:-) My inclination is to let sleeping dogs lie and see wha= t comes out of the RFC Editor (probably the same as went in: but if you thi= nk it significant enough, I would flag it to the WG Chair:-(=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote:=0A= > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16?=0A= >=0A= > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that=0A= > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..'=0A= >=0A= > Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to ze= ro or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rather= the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessing= the leaf.=0A= >=0A= > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950.=0A= >=0A= > Tom petch=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > netmod mailing list=0A= > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= =0A= --=0A= Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= From nobody Fri Sep 10 09:19:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295D03A08DA for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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For me it makes sense to report this, let alone to spread the word that there is no NULL in YANG land. Sure, things like this should be catched earlier but things are as they are and a late fix is still better than publishing questionable examples. /js On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:06:14PM +0000, tom petch wrote: > From: Jürgen Schönwälder > Sent: 10 September 2021 13:14 > > I guess the description should be worded as > > "This leaf does not exist if ..." > > instead of talking about NULL, a concept that does not exist in the > YANG language and the protocols. > > One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that a client > cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' and > 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In practice, > though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained. > > > > Juergen, Lada > > Thank you for the prompt responses. This is an I-D that has been to the IESG although the announcement has yet to appear, which makes me coy about saying which it is:-) My inclination is to let sleeping dogs lie and see what comes out of the RFC Editor (probably the same as went in: but if you think it significant enough, I would flag it to the WG Chair:-( > > Tom Petch > > /js > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote: > > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16? > > > > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that > > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..' > > > > Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rather the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessing the leaf. > > > > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950. > > > > Tom petch > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Sep 10 09:26:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9306C3A09A4 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:26:31 +0000 Received: from AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b9c8:47dd:34f0:7180]) by AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b9c8:47dd:34f0:7180%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4523.009; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:26:31 +0000 From: tom petch To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 Thread-Index: AQHXpjnRqxw0UvAVLkODxV8ubPVxUKudLlwAgAA/dI2AAATVAIAAAf/R Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:26:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 63e0168c-e27e-9b3c-3877-4368803e8129 authentication-results: jacobs-university.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;jacobs-university.de; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3f41e5bf-61e0-48cf-a946-08d97477bf6b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2021 16:26:30.9825 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 56EdfFBrsa/NareruJ6TzufyqW0W/6cNz0/9FUXg29fA1yDL+qxamzrNpUyD31p7Eu/mtYrg6+vOzIskXCZqVw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8PR07MB7765 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:26:41 -0000 From: J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder =0A= Sent: 10 September 2021 17:18=0A= To: tom petch=0A= Cc: netmod@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16=0A= =0A= The RFC editor is not going to fix this, for them it is beyond=0A= editorial. For me it makes sense to report this, let alone to spread=0A= the word that there is no NULL in YANG land. Sure, things like this=0A= should be catched earlier but things are as they are and a late fix=0A= is still better than publishing questionable examples.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= OK will do.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= /js=0A= =0A= On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:06:14PM +0000, tom petch wrote:=0A= > From: J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder =0A= > Sent: 10 September 2021 13:14=0A= >=0A= > I guess the description should be worded as=0A= >=0A= > "This leaf does not exist if ..."=0A= >=0A= > instead of talking about NULL, a concept that does not exist in the=0A= > YANG language and the protocols.=0A= >=0A= > One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that a client=0A= > cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' and=0A= > 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In practice,=0A= > though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained.=0A= >=0A= > =0A= >=0A= > Juergen, Lada=0A= >=0A= > Thank you for the prompt responses. This is an I-D that has been to the = IESG although the announcement has yet to appear, which makes me coy about = saying which it is:-) My inclination is to let sleeping dogs lie and see w= hat comes out of the RFC Editor (probably the same as went in: but if you t= hink it significant enough, I would flag it to the WG Chair:-(=0A= >=0A= > Tom Petch=0A= >=0A= > /js=0A= >=0A= > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote:=0A= > > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16?=0A= > >=0A= > > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that=0A= > > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..'=0A= > >=0A= > > Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to = zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rath= er the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessi= ng the leaf.=0A= > >=0A= > > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950.=0A= > >=0A= > > Tom petch=0A= > > _______________________________________________=0A= > > netmod mailing list=0A= > > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= >=0A= > --=0A= > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= --=0A= Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= From nobody Fri Sep 10 09:42:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7403A0BF2 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LBkwAC8nvmEP for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FACC3A0BF0 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id x27so5264727lfu.5 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:42:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hAkz82GNLwp4+tWDKyZnQvie3s+lQ9rPlB4BwGtWh0I=; b=x9vM8SQERU/hABhsGawoNF3hdP2zuYAIeR6HZDd2spTd5QaFpp/wrwGpQoQKR3L6po kb73KXUuVyTsZWQgNUwvvY61grflEZ/jq5vt7dgrcwlKGwsh+Y2QWc/tcTYjENJYknou A1P+lbS4NK1u2DXSA4xk2NGJssDrXPRME6JVrKz9eIqtz6fLfkIXK4EnZoNpMksnjNgy LNPNGxUsV6On/LgYzmaB3lKGhqN+cMAZVw9RCi+LcwJgb1QFEldGpLG46dOlQraLv8WS 362azrpqUqig1FH7i8WNWCzNxtqCwzJLuycIN5Gf5ZdZ6q9sofDN+YC7Cu00Kmfg4jri mncw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hAkz82GNLwp4+tWDKyZnQvie3s+lQ9rPlB4BwGtWh0I=; b=8PfPXyKkCjJwvqxudg3p+QiceLyPvpGFBLnHhpHqpJkkkj51nDcstLht7HTeVcsKVO JltEiAQmrnyGOX1Ts+4kOlOxG+sr8No+N7PG2aIhYB2/Wmw6Fk/SC0JQwUATYy3JxGhG 3MxA/C5USaAPAFSLceknrh2mSd5BE4U3+QpOq1k09sab6bPsUfAyQwkVuqZP8BDG0fqU V6kUuDRnFCwAunulkMuAPXxLafRi0VcxtqATMq18BAQ0l1kK879SShq5pTJRxGYGzwCJ wQFrzPkZWSb01RzYGsvmcHffm803Ne1ty0/PUVlgfRisWbN8jhPo+8GvKyNI+cZ5VoZV OQFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531o6ojxEUMDEJzhhzbPy4QqfZzK+UK8X0nIqtvjJeb3coOKm5zP hgX19Gm/0mdTzkeOIvoKNZSZOdB2ulEUfEkUdhdQZw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz4I6fd3WmRiKjjB/ctL4mPmH/etaQV3IEVI21iFrpJkYrniMTGisjqzWg361miajzM21dkdpvU8eBo7X3st8I= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:338f:: with SMTP id h15mr4520862lfg.38.1631292144932; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:42:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: tom petch Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2f46005cba6ccf9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:42:38 -0000 --000000000000d2f46005cba6ccf9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951 is confusing people https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7951#section-6.9 Andy On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 9:26 AM tom petch wrote: > From: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > Sent: 10 September 2021 17:18 > To: tom petch > Cc: netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 > > The RFC editor is not going to fix this, for them it is beyond > editorial. For me it makes sense to report this, let alone to spread > the word that there is no NULL in YANG land. Sure, things like this > should be catched earlier but things are as they are and a late fix > is still better than publishing questionable examples. > > > > OK will do. > > Tom Petch > /js > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:06:14PM +0000, tom petch wrote: > > From: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > > Sent: 10 September 2021 13:14 > > > > I guess the description should be worded as > > > > "This leaf does not exist if ..." > > > > instead of talking about NULL, a concept that does not exist in the > > YANG language and the protocols. > > > > One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that a client > > cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' and > > 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In practice, > > though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained. > > > > > > > > Juergen, Lada > > > > Thank you for the prompt responses. This is an I-D that has been to th= e > IESG although the announcement has yet to appear, which makes me coy abou= t > saying which it is:-) My inclination is to let sleeping dogs lie and see > what comes out of the RFC Editor (probably the same as went in: but if yo= u > think it significant enough, I would flag it to the WG Chair:-( > > > > Tom Petch > > > > /js > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote: > > > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16? > > > > > > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that > > > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..' > > > > > > Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set t= o > zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. > Rather the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol > accessing the leaf. > > > > > > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950. > > > > > > Tom petch > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000d2f46005cba6ccf9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951= is confusing people


Andy

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 9:26 AM tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
From: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder= <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Sent: 10 September 2021 17:18
To: tom petch
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16

The RFC editor is not going to fix this, for them it is beyond
editorial. For me it makes sense to report this, let alone to spread
the word that there is no NULL in YANG land. Sure, things like this
should be catched earlier but things are as they are and a late fix
is still better than publishing questionable examples.

<tp>

OK will do.

Tom Petch
/js

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 04:06:14PM +0000, tom petch wrote:
> From: J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-univ= ersity.de>
> Sent: 10 September 2021 13:14
>
> I guess the description should be worded as
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0"This leaf does not exist if ..."
>
> instead of talking about NULL, a concept that does not exist in the > YANG language and the protocols.
>
> One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that = a client
> cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' an= d
> 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In p= ractice,
> though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained.<= br> >
> <tp>
>
> Juergen, Lada
>
> Thank you for the prompt responses.=C2=A0 This is an I-D that has been= to the IESG although the announcement has yet to appear, which makes me co= y about saying which it is:-)=C2=A0 My inclination is to let sleeping dogs = lie and see what comes out of the RFC Editor (probably the same as went in:= but if you think it significant enough, I would flag it to the WG Chair:-(=
>
> Tom Petch
>
> /js
>
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote:
> > Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16?
> >
> > Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that
> > 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..'
> >
> > Some languages differentiate=C2=A0 a 'never been set' sta= te from e.g set to zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have = that concept.=C2=A0 Rather the leaf does not exist which=C2=A0 will be refl= ected by the protocol accessing the leaf.
> >
> > I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950.
> >
> > Tom petch
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
--000000000000d2f46005cba6ccf9-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 09:47:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694483A0C1F for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05Kj1exKomUa for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-f42.google.com (mail-pj1-f42.google.com [209.85.216.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE3793A0C28 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-f42.google.com with SMTP id g13-20020a17090a3c8d00b00196286963b9so1910549pjc.3 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WbAAlRmU5JNld9OpYDXIqzD1im36+7wTT2LGEzeMKL4=; b=t7jtdH/IE9zzbsMJXcT1m09JdWu2gxqdV5hLEwCfGsYHmDAFR+Nm3psz36QewhvcbU MdPESe7+UVfoYD8Shs1THW1IHc/JMeNbBWh4aHhLwqThBab6/S/JKgi6kaNgqmUJFUU2 aTTjP2eJH8kJTxZNwTgB4RhAyYz7y4aUzEDVyDPcSNE0y4Sp9URjobLjgWyiO9StvWZ4 3KV/6rBCZiYleZKj/bSm5oveltKdNciuACB+Ty7H5gRAWZ9dEAigywh8IZviP9OOO71x geWQ9AftGzuLKfGpSX8BZ4XcfXArtngtZ1qHfzft1Yg+qdOIOBg2MUndOhRQSJ4c8qZR LXZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532YNjO9YmXzEn+80WwxhWK/EmjLe51muBl54UnI8zno0qfquR8d HWQZdvTpnJHCfZjI9rXsp1yJupYQb9YKRA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwaF66nlXQ+5md6Pp4s4eWgT+AAB5vduGdIV5107vrgFkMxlL694TdvWlKZWEoYhWryVD73Tw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:450d:: with SMTP id u13mr10511627pjg.138.1631292435390; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:646:9300:112b:c77:e032:f862:870e? ([2601:646:9300:112b:c77:e032:f862:870e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z67sm5544170pfb.169.2021.09.10.09.47.14 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:14 -0700 (PDT) To: netmod@ietf.org References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:47:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:47:21 -0000 Hi - On 2021-09-10 9:42 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951 is confusing people > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7951#section-6.9 > Are you suggesting that the type of this leaf should be a choice of unit16 and empty? At least that wouldn't have the ambiguity under access control Jürgen described. Randy From nobody Fri Sep 10 09:57:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7C13A0DEC for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QDH4eu27Oa_p for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B0523A0DE7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id k13so5370207lfv.2 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:57:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R+7cmwlMsJp77XbWhOQr5K6pUAHDR1u/z5+ta1+iLV8=; b=fc87hEOGJ6jPfFrIadwviFrsfAPMp//ipb+B42uvtn/o2A2tn66Pr03f6m5qcxfXkP p+p4cLavl1VlR76r3urmJi9JD0cahwHnlWqU4orBhnEVehcpIyArS6huGmrOyUU6cD9f cQz9mLSeaQhx/zQHvVuw/XZjcih2cclho/g6FFsdcgT1jT6NyLY3bRVltE+UJUtO84XC 4VYxsr6kUH2B/qfoY4AruqJ+mkDOfVkXCc3TRtmx01nkpTJU/GweQBk97J3ZuolBn36j m2f5+Ca7AWM9VmV9TQXN4BT4b/8WdUEDE4dtvIaXOGJlE2xFsdHx0Z47FP1rzWI0eiuK gc/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R+7cmwlMsJp77XbWhOQr5K6pUAHDR1u/z5+ta1+iLV8=; b=4a/FbWlEM1BRynC3tRSoGXHd/GnU1HhieBaVxvgC1Xy9hyaxMngn4aqGKGK5p2CYuu ZC0i+6Km3mbjdvQd6Rs7zPMig0/05BAd0J60FpV6k2L5ONIkYha7/zFVmCkMJcnwnWeq bqZTQGdGgcqxamSuP1I9f+5fVwBJ/FLK+aMhto3e2gal7GWUKz+ju6VWlnjEwTCejW2W B1I88dqRWyOsXg9ne0QSmgYOqq1qfYw8g7As/3qvZj/7Y1WjlBatH5I6K+QhQKraituE TOqvu+rSW4NAJyun/u/ejjHw73Of+E8QLh9mKbIbfT9EJnLKc479jstZz3gSsw5hDzz5 QEMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330iglS3XHS8KnAXMJEd4m4/TkSNoLQ5qxxEOL9jE/heYhcj3r8 vLSDH88WyoenzRujRZQCvBL2KRSkcZY8pECBDxaBRB+tLVA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyj92jw0CRrHP7smNwUIdstSTNVwYO/L7DE4utrFCj0hGabGP5X/nbbq6Jwg0NMs4vRQHHDeZLHIySnpvzrR2c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:338f:: with SMTP id h15mr4565378lfg.38.1631293056284; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:57:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:57:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000250fd505cba703c8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:57:49 -0000 --000000000000250fd505cba703c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 9:47 AM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > On 2021-09-10 9:42 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951 is confusing people > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7951#section-6.9 > > > > Are you suggesting that the type of this leaf should be a > choice of unit16 and empty? At least that wouldn't > have the ambiguity under access control J=C3=BCrgen described. > > No, but the access control issue applies everywhere so it is usually ignore= d and assumed that the client can view all the server data. The client could be blocked from viewing the empty, so this choice does not help. I was just guessing at the source of the confusion that YANG has a null value. Randy > > Andy > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000250fd505cba703c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 9:47 AM Randy= Presuhn <randy_pre= suhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

On 2021-09-10 9:42 AM, Andy Bierman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951 is confusing people
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/= rfc7951#section-6.9
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h= tml/rfc7951#section-6.9>

Are you suggesting that the type of this leaf should be a
choice of unit16 and empty?=C2=A0 At least that wouldn't
have the ambiguity under access control J=C3=BCrgen described.



No, but the access cont= rol issue applies everywhere so it is usually ignored
and assumed= that the client can view all the server data. The client could be
blocked from viewing the empty, so this choice does not help.
<= br>
I was just guessing at the source of the confusion that YANG = has a null value.


Randy


Andy
=C2=A0
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--000000000000250fd505cba703c8-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 10:02:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082EE3A0E1E for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:02:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ypy2h2K7_TNY for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADEEF3A0E22 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id l11so5400599lfe.1 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6vzIEWdjOhpEHu53GXTjnrl4TCTZCPBIZCE0bkK3Aa8=; b=fryPGBVCrrn8BdIldDOjp5FUa6kiqIFWQOc69zriKlmnoZ1HU5I4YOURBBNeaC+6ll xRxDlGXWKegy5+n/k1GH/EyhjFUWqBfQ/ym8gqfSeZMUwepm/R+g4Ph58X/usfvC9BUY KuLSRg6uw6XDXdiRYyFLqfRwb9FYiRHWc/i/qP4p9Em5yQ4UXCBu8go7O1SOa/mXWzNr 4eutyKwU+L378gCj96vgDvotphZmlp6gA7fdhq6oAcrBHiNk1a6XeA8fz2wbWPLHokTX o+HIhrAtn7epjbXw6tBRc4bxJ0lj5/U9xwIabh0TFPjomknVSYGuuH5BuK6yovN5OxE5 7IHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6vzIEWdjOhpEHu53GXTjnrl4TCTZCPBIZCE0bkK3Aa8=; b=BnstYB7VbNaZ2SgDvi25JinjHBVy0VgGNhnD1b85VYKIRhj+ipnlwcfhpad728GBOO CD4n+wrn2f20dmKqVazcOWUKvooo+Vl7jJUPu9SU1sjqaXt3eEt56r9ZjVd7WQgmXdf1 quDBrY1okm2kEy6SE07I4fumWY6ixZV1wDK5Ht7XQtaTExZ3D74QSz5rUUHYzTlEMDrs YyIHrJISNQCepXOe6wxz7tb0tdYX8MI91LXtDLouADDjcrQAs+s0e30QZLd1cgwc8f/T WEIK9i703UjCp2SblXkhR2mzXbJQPgRrtfl9zo9dqjlLGUIxy9zWMhSOB0RNVlMTh9Wx Gkcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KL/eH6t0GimJ0Z4/dYir1dcEF1GhgfDRFXCevrV29nNezgbbS 0yvCBbOULiw3h8mbtxSvwv8hXtNg95JTsk6D6SOSN2nC9hM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzHdnSOZkdn5nVC7pb5zMQqjJsAqgBi/D6Ac07tFen6GmWGgVOCMKgUa+QqsHJ/ZtSpj8SAzvGf8S+R7ukg24Q= X-Received: by 2002:a19:655e:: with SMTP id c30mr4569026lfj.142.1631293362021; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:02:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e3a0605cba71539" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:02:53 -0000 --0000000000005e3a0605cba71539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > See below as BALAZS4 > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS3. > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. > > IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change > approach. > > BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2= =80=9D > =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by t= he server=E2=80=9D > > These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I > would like to stick with including text here. > > > > > > > > I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf > "with-defaults-mode" typedef > > cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already know > how to deal > > with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. > > > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > } > > > > I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. > > Andy > > BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I > avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: > > =C2=B7 It references RFC 6243 ; Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, ca= pabilities) > > =C2=B7 The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to rep= ort default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. > > =C2=B7 report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribu= te=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding > > =C2=B7 I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. > > Is this acceptable? > > > > The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3. It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all. The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes. IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users. includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't. It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different things. Andy > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 > > } > > } > > description > > "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, > > thus any data node MAY be absent. > > > > Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a > > full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set > > includes data nodes that have a default defined and > > where the actual value is the same as the default value. > > > > Data nodes that have no default values should always > > be included. > > Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual > > value is not equal to the schema defined default > > should always be included."; > > > > > > AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? > > Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default > > are not relevant to this object. > > BALAZS3: OK > > > > reference > > "RFC 6243 : Wit= h-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; > > } > > > > The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data > set is to include > > the "default" attribute in each default node. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 > > This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current > solution). > > BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. > > Here is the current proposed text: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values, if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set."; > > } > > enum report-all-tagged { > > value 2; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set. > > Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL > > contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is equal to the schema default > > value SHALL NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 4; > > description > > "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the > > schema default value SHALL NOT be included. > > However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF > > client or other management application by the way > > of an explicit management operation, the data node > > SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by > > the instance-data-set."; > > } > > } > > description > > "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default > > data. This leaf indicates whether default data is > > included. > > > > As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data > > sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or > > leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set > > does not intend to include the data node independent > > of default handling."; > > reference > > "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF > > RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; > > } > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --0000000000005e3a0605cba71539 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

See below as BALAZS4

=C2=A0

From: An= dy Bierman <andy= @yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4= :57
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
C= c: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: R= e: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf includes-defaults {

Andy

BALAZS4: =C2=A0While I generally agree that dupl= ication is a bad practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It references RFC 6243; Section 3<=
/a> which is full of inappropr=
iate references (server, data retrieval, capabilities)
=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=
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odes to report default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g.,=
 UC2 Preloading default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not report=
ed.
= 
=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
report-all-tagged description =
contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON =
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=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descripti=
ons.
I=
s this acceptable?
=C2=A0



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ncludes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
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=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be incl=
uded independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";=

=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 value 2;
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descr=
iption
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0"Data nodes that have a default defined and where<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual =
value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined an=
d where
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 included. However, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client =
or other management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit managemen=
t operation the
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";=

=C2=
=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "As instance-data-sets MAY contain inco=
mplete data sets,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
thus any data node MAY be absent.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 full data set, this leaf specifi=
es whether the data set
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 includes data nodes that have a default defined and=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the sa=
me as the default value.
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Da=
ta nodes that have no default values should always
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be included.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have a default value, but th=
e actual
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value is=
 not equal to the schema defined default
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should always be included.";=

=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0
AB: The last paragraph should be remove=
d or changed. Why are these nodes special?
Nodes that are actua=
lly present and do not contain the YANG default
<=
pre style=3D"break-before:page">are not relevan=
t to this object.
BALAZS3: OK=

=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 r=
eference
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 6243:=
 With-defaults Capability for NETCONF";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
u>
<= div>

the "default" attribute in each defaul= t node.=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#secti= on-6

This actually w= orks for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current solution).=

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf.=

Here is the current proposed text:

---------------------= ---------------------------------------

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type e= numeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum repor= t-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0val= ue 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descr= iption

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 any default values, if the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered b= y the instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report= -all-tagged=C2=A0 {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent= of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values if the data node

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= is covered by the instance-data-set.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Any nodes considered to= be default data SHALL

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0contain a 'default' attribute s= et to 'true'";

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that h= ave a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is equal to = the schema default=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0value SHALL NOT be included.&q= uot;;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 4;

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes = where the actual value is equal to the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0schema default = value SHALL NOT be included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, if the actual valu= e was set by a NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0client or other management applic= ation by the way

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of an explicit management operation, th= e data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SHALL be included, if the data node is cov= ered by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "An instance-data-set may contain or= exclude default

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0data. This leaf indicates whether default data is

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0included. <= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As instance-data-s= ets MAY contain incomplete data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0leaf-li= st MAY be absent because the instance-data-set

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0does not intend to include the da= ta node independent

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of default handling.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 reference

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &qu= ot;RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

-----------------------------------------= -------------------

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1z= s Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defau= lts as you proposed.

=C2=A0<= u>

I am not sure I understand the rest of the= comments as instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasi= c-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is the situation wit= h defaults in the specific instance-data-set.

As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not w= ant to specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the ha= ndling used for this specific instance data set.

=C2=A0

Regards Balaz= s

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9t= f=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com&g= t;
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subj= ect: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at = 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:<= /u>

Hello Rob,

I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. <= u>

In sections 1.2 and 2 we state:<= /u>

Which is important for many use-cases.=C2=A0 This means y=
ou cannot say that a default value will or must be included, as they might =
be omitted because they are not part of the partial data set.=

In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing b=
ecause
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part of the partial data-set
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have the default value and one of t=
he trim or explicit options is used
If this becomes impor=
tant the report-all op=
tions shall be used.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or th= ere is no way to

represe= nt "no defaults added".

=C2=A0

Note th= at "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, sinc= e a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 Only report-all-tagged will c= learly identify defaults in this case.

=C2=A0

Al= so note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever= reported.

This mode mea= ns the server does not consider any node to be a default and always returns=

every node (if with-def= aults used or not).

=C2= =A0

This is the reason I used the SHO=
ULD word.
Regards Balazs
=

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.co= m>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman &l= t;andy@yumaworks.co= m>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-fi= le include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi Ba= lazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I would still like to st= rength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rat= her than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, = that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could define the =E2=80= =9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D= , since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this effectively wha= t the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose changing the descrip= tions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data no= des SHOULD be included independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.&quo= t;;

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes tha= t have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the de= fault value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default d= efined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD= NOT be

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by= the way of an explicit management operation the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node S= HOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set include= s all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the schema default.= =E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The inst= ance data set excludes all data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain the schema defau= lt.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The i= nstance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that match the schema d= efault and may exclude some

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match the schema defau= lt.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "This= leaf provides an indication of how default data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an instance data set,= modelled on

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC = 6243.

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Interpretat= ion of the use of defaults depends on the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data set represent= s.

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g., if the i= nstance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default-han= dling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational data f= rom the

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ope= rational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of th= at

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore in R= FC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-t= op:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsso= n.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilto= n@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <<= a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org>=
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80= =9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very specific = to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not = useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operationa= l datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the include= s-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (ii) wil= l not.

R= egards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: = Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd= 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel= @ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0<= /p>

H= i Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

So, the reas= on that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use is beca= use of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

=

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from <oper= ational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use i= f the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned for a gi= ven node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the node is= not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It = was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data canno= t differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This= value is not present because it matches the default value specified in the= YANG module, and

= (ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is no= t present because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g.,= perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not avai= lable, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a mi= ssing deviation).

=C2=A0

So, I thin= k that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean = that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data documen= t to be able to contain and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0

I think that this behaviour could be captured b= y a single leaf.=C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:=

=C2=A0

leaf in-use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 instance data for a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0nod= e is not used rather than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default v= alue specified by any corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80= =99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;<= /p>

}

=C2=A0

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2= =80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but = if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., w= ithout the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

From: A= ndy Bierman <and= y@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: R= ob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Le= ngyel <= balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-in= stance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> w= rote:

Andy,<= u>

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking= that a boolean flag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automat= ically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to= do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solution is simple.

Get rid of t= he inappropriate "default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present the= n it identifies the basic-mode that was used to include defaults.=

If not then the information is either not known, not = applicable, or defaults were not added.

=

=C2= =A0

The "default" statement is a b= ug because there is no default basic-mode.

A= ll of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever=

been able to convince the others that theirs is ri= ght.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Andy

= =C2=A0

E.g., something alo= ng these lines:

=C2=A0

leaf exclude= -defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

= =C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the co= ntent data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a def= ault defined and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where t= he actual value is the default value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data= nodes with default value are not filtered, and

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D=

}

=C2=A0

Would this sati= sfy your concern?

=C2=A0

Regards,Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of A= ndy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <= netmod@ietf.org>= ;
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

= =C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {<= u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum re=
port-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data =
nodes that have a default defined and where
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 valu=
e 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes tha=
t have a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 th=
e actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management o=
peration the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be includ=
ed.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defau=
lt trim;
=C2=A0
The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards,=
 but this

leaf is too server-centric to ig= nore.

=C2=A0

<= div>

= Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF serve= r.

This data may not be known so the default= of "trim" may not be correct.

=C2= =A0

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool = that knows the schema will also

know the YAN= G defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enoug= h.

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" m= ode must be used to identify defaults.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">IMO t= his leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown&q= uot;.

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

Andy

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=
<= /div>
--0000000000005e3a0605cba71539-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 10:33:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66CA03A0FF5 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTz_aS_Bwg48 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com (mail-pj1-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DBE43A0FF2 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id u13-20020a17090abb0db0290177e1d9b3f7so2021672pjr.1 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EW8DT4eyjvtvJ/PpNQLNVWv9a+G5qDs6imILw6e9+bw=; b=ZHSXxDgleJRjFRDRunw4wgecKBe5eL6icYHxM2eYOKgw3UXkDadIAL0XeCY1CwlFhk 1gZieqbpfgdm4vpyaeupF+fgimfI77qbkjJ/XSO48cTMIv8/JFMdG4RUzpylH+qMcJLv o/aHe66ogP0yWlaBckX/uMikK7sp9yIivraXWEfRPJylkjsjYx6P5s0P/VNsiwdx4fJm qrYCg6PfjnhIWkLU/XVg43zY1apb1iw7Ci3HWRaWaXtfmnkym4ig1VRhGOuwxIEhK9k/ YzObbN0Q0JfeK51vikcnG2dcyD5oJVcSL1DX3Sk2PBMEYuYN16P0aPWod/bY4oVguk8b /bMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531BJZtAj/53D+UUEkKq3jZL+UNXOtQHydUBQ+CdLa+hUjsqN6fI +1wNaMyGI/9BaiZ6376BTqXQaCzxTOU6Vg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTRfCYjxLRcjdgf/AA9qeygTJw/U61JkndJkPmk9e6ayNrQlLmoC2Onkzs6zIazS2Vdz1BdA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5511:: with SMTP id b17mr10753316pji.222.1631295202486; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:646:9300:112b:c77:e032:f862:870e? ([2601:646:9300:112b:c77:e032:f862:870e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a10sm5453668pfo.75.2021.09.10.10.33.21 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:22 -0700 (PDT) To: "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <765352c3-fccf-33d2-8df9-e615712f0fb6@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:33:21 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:33:28 -0000 Hi - On 2021-09-10 9:57 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 9:47 AM Randy Presuhn > > wrote: > > Hi - > > On 2021-09-10 9:42 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951 is confusing people > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7951#section-6.9 > > > > > > Are you suggesting that the type of this leaf should be a > choice of unit16 and empty?  At least that wouldn't > have the ambiguity under access control Jürgen described. > > > > No, but the access control issue applies everywhere so it is usually ignored > and assumed that the client can view all the server data. The client > could be > blocked from viewing the empty, so this choice does not help. It removes the ambiguity. With the current design, a client cannot distinguish between no-value-yet and blocked. With a choice, the client can tell the difference. Whether that distinction matters is a judgement call, and I understand the perspective that it's easier to just ignore it in clients, regardless of how that might affect the validity of the decisions they make. > I was just guessing at the source of the confusion that YANG has a null > value. It does: empty. But just as in better-known syntaxes like ASN.1 one still needs to use a choice type to make "null" a possibility beyond the range of values represented by the other basic types. (A corner cases might be things like empty strings, though I'd argue that a zero-length string is quite distinct from no-string-at-all.) Randy From nobody Fri Sep 10 10:40:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208F03A102E for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:40:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=labn.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mbn807jd6Xw3 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam07on2122.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.95.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDA593A102D for ; 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The full text is          leaf received-metric {            type uint16;            description              "The metric with which this route was advertised by the               neighbor, or maximum value (infinity) to indicate the               route was recently retracted and is temporarily               unreachable. This metric will be NULL (no value) if the               route was not received from a neighbor but instead was               injected through means external to the Babel routing               protocol. At least one of calculated-metric or               received-metric MUST be non-NULL."; and it references an RFC that says: This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. So, in context I read it as saying NULL = 0 While I think the phrasing *is* problematic if the definition of NULL was expected to be yang, the reference points to a relevant definition of NULL.  So, in this context, I'm not sure I see a substantive issue that *needs* to be fixed.  I do think this is something for the yang Drs to keep an eye out for  and perhaps avoid possibly confusing language in the future. Lou (as contributor) On 9/10/2021 12:06 PM, tom petch wrote: > From: Jürgen Schönwälder > Sent: 10 September 2021 13:14 > > I guess the description should be worded as > > "This leaf does not exist if ..." > > instead of talking about NULL, a concept that does not exist in the > YANG language and the protocols. > > One subtle point with the "does not exist" approach is that a client > cannot reliably distinguish between 'a leaf does not exist' and > 'access to a leaf was denied by an authorization policy'. In practice, > though, most authorization policies tend to be rather coarse grained. > > > > Juergen, Lada > > Thank you for the prompt responses. This is an I-D that has been to the IESG although the announcement has yet to appear, which makes me coy about saying which it is:-) My inclination is to let sleeping dogs lie and see what comes out of the RFC Editor (probably the same as went in: but if you think it significant enough, I would flag it to the WG Chair:-( > > Tom Petch > > /js > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 11:56:22AM +0000, tom petch wrote: >> Does NULL have any meaning for a leaf of type uint16? >> >> Looking at a leaf of type uint16 the description says that >> 'This metric will be NULL (no value) ..' >> >> Some languages differentiate a 'never been set' state from e.g set to zero or some other value but for me, YANG does not have that concept. Rather the leaf does not exist which will be reflected by the protocol accessing the leaf. >> >> I see no NULL at least in this context in RFC7950. >> >> Tom petch >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Fri Sep 10 13:09:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0594E3A18A7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:09:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for > unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type > that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is a legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value. Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicate that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimming RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16). The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bit integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RFC 9046. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Sep 13 01:18:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A83D3A0B66 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:17:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CF8rOBquPT6T for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E0BB3A0B5E for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2001:718:1a02:1::380]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1D3C1415FB; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:17:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Andy Bierman , Randy Presuhn Cc: NetMod WG In-Reply-To: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910161854.c432lddyl362wsbq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Randy Presuhn , NetMod WG Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:17:48 +0200 Message-ID: <87ilz4lwib.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:17:58 -0000 Andy Bierman writes: > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 9:47 AM Randy Presuhn < > randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> Hi - >> >> On 2021-09-10 9:42 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > Maybe the use of [null] in RFC 7951 is confusing people >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7951#section-6.9 >> > >> >> Are you suggesting that the type of this leaf should be a >> choice of unit16 and empty? At least that wouldn't >> have the ambiguity under access control J=C3=BCrgen described. >> >> > > No, but the access control issue applies everywhere so it is usually igno= red > and assumed that the client can view all the server data. The client could > be > blocked from viewing the empty, so this choice does not help. > > I was just guessing at the source of the confusion that YANG has a null > value. This shouldn't be too confusing, as that "null" in JSON encoding is also wr= apped in an array. This was done exactly because otherwise some programming= languages (JavaScript) don't make distinction between null values and miss= ing properties. Lada > > > Randy >> >> > Andy > > >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Sep 13 01:25:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081833A0DE0 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:25:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tM5FLmb_kmXc for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AA7D3A0DEA for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H7KKg4nlGz2xJW; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:25:11 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:25:11 +0200 Cc: Lou Berger , "netmod@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653214311.109316-d6463233e18363f73bfff82bc543e258 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:25:28 -0000 > On 2021-09-10, at 22:09, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > We are talking about RFC 9046? Well=E2=80=A6 SECDIR Last Call Review (of -11): Has Issues=20 RTGDIR Last Call Review (of -11): Ready=20 GENART Last Call Review (of -11): Ready=20 RTGDIR Early Review (of -03): Has Issues=20 OPSDIR Last Call Review - due: 2020-10-27 (Don=E2=80=99t want to point at specific people, because I=E2=80=99m = much worse when it comes to finishing my reviews.) > RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is a > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. Note that the document provides an information model, which yet has to = be translated into YANG or some other data modeling language. (Which once again points to the danger of making up information modeling = schemes as you go. Section 1.2 does not define NULL, but clearly, it = defines optional properties, and one can infer that NULL is their way to = talk about an absent optional property.) 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Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:12:57 +0000 From: tom petch To: Lou Berger , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 Thread-Index: AQHXpjnRqxw0UvAVLkODxV8ubPVxUKudLlwAgAA/dI2AABuBgIAAKaAAgAP7C9A= Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:12:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 92a6d0fa-0cb0-4359-641e-d5bc9d5d17b4 authentication-results: labn.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;labn.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c10b479b-b89f-482d-fd9a-08d97696ad4d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR07MB4054: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c10b479b-b89f-482d-fd9a-08d97696ad4d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2021 09:12:57.2993 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: rrvdiboy3SEElJ4Jm6uUyryU0jZfvT7jwgLU9ipJPJ83bbOfhMhg4/rWd3wlERh8/re2T/b0t+EPQklKcMqQOQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB4054 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:13:08 -0000 From: J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder =0A= Sent: 10 September 2021 21:09=0A= =0A= On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote:=0A= =0A= > and it references an RFC that says:=0A= >=0A= > This is a 16-bit unsigned integer;=0A= > if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for=0A= > unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type=0A= > that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL.=0A= =0A= We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several=0A= times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is a=0A= legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time.=0A= =0A= In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value.=0A= Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicate=0A= that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and=0A= set aside a special value from the number space or use a union.=0A= =0A= RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimming=0A= RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers:=0A= =0A= Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data=0A= structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16).=0A= =0A= The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bit=0A= integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a=0A= sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RFC=0A= 9046.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lou, Juergen,=0A= =0A= Thank you for doing my homework for me. I should have dug deeper before my= first post but it was late on Friday afternoon and I was having a really b= ad time with webmail and a replacement PC that only wants to do Social Medi= a, (or so it still seems to me - I have just had another battle).=0A= =0A= Anyhow, you are spot on with what I was alluding to. I missed RFC9046 in = Last Call unfortunately. It is Informational which is one problem I see bu= t do think that this reference to Null is another. For me, the wording sta= rts assuming that the concept of Null exists in a language and can be repr= esented as distinct from zero which is fine in some languages. My first po= st was checking out my understanding that YANG is not such a language whic= h you have confirmed for me. I then read RFC9046 as requiring a different = approach, such as a union so, for me, RFC9046 is fine until the DDL is YANG= , then treating zero as Null is wrong,, a different approach is needed, so = it is the data model I-D that is at fault IMHO. I have posted to the WG li= st but see no follow up as yet.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= --=0A= Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= From nobody Mon Sep 13 03:05:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD973A105A for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 03:05:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: Joel Jaeggli , The IESG , draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org, joelja@gmail.com, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, rwilton@cisco.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <163154781057.13603.9388050030071654192@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:43:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Protocol Action: 'Comparison of NMDA datastores' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-12.txt) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:43:31 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Comparison of NMDA datastores' (draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-12.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Network Modeling Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Warren Kumari and Robert Wilton. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ Technical Summary This document defines a simple YANG RPC operation to compare management datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture. Working Group Summary NMDA diff attracted as significant amount of discussion due to the utility of being able to compare two datastores. As a result of this effort we believe that the working group consensus reflects broad support for the current draft. Document Quality The Document has been fairly widely reviewed. A couple of individuals (including one of the authors) questioned during IETF LC whether there was industry support for implementing this new RPC. Partly because the work doesn't go far enough (e.g., comparing the contents of a datastore to a file, and also the output format (YANG Patch) not being as useful as an alternative NETCONF edit-config based format). However, this RPC is clearly helpful for managing implementations conforming to NMDA, and I would prefer to see this current work published, and then interested parties can look at extending the work as appropriate. Personnel Joel Jaeggli is the Document Shepherd Robert Wilton is the responsible AD From nobody Mon Sep 13 12:49:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09933A0138; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6KQvWoA0KTBF; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E69963A012A; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id j6so9561428pfa.4; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=XhOaN0avawxbgB1O4GKRepvvrGSnBj6nFW2MkQ1I9w8=; b=me2UCDLN4WJdLfqfq778WCq4fxFk5ux5ptgyMfOUoxAiGd3RKcmniS8tRdSn+QIuKv 2uWViZ4povCtWUjo0GTLif1x3OfQJemXHDHL3o/FUMJVWKyCkHOBeAP4mDjP+dV16SA3 DRddSlQESCsoUzEB7v6asbd6i3OznMKnC+UXIr0rw2PfG5nSvO9JdRjXoEC/PDJlygdY 0MjNgTkT+Qe2v2o8Y2fMy+9mrr+tCgpQ+IkowCXfbgoW71vEUGPSTjNClmvajzOCqkao 1qL5gV94I0bVWMMRU5mYQiPNJm8GrFTi3UrtHdE5ApmWvEYfjzCMZN5sr/3lUMeFUuEr AzvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=XhOaN0avawxbgB1O4GKRepvvrGSnBj6nFW2MkQ1I9w8=; b=c9iU+WRRBwGyDT56QOeeTv6w9PnSDPUxpCV1rl+nJLnWAvwZVhno18PX7cUxqEFXpN ZjAHD9/Bn7neFWtUJFVEpcmtPAPT4QGU86i1wcV9TD5esL7XRQOLAXCnfpshIiDLzWrW taqE89KB9+E8u2bkGA3+zoQSFb1zeys7BtVmJsd2vLlfXnwVDeJKkl/DsRRa9iSyUq1t /ZSEzNaeYzdl/DHVZdJ08Bu++qZCQ+YeGRq2QYk6z4zItz7XIpfLTlS1Yn03+jBZAc/Q XIk09ej03KjSeuzkeJD4onatrlSx8B/Y9unxexAqNOEU0sMsIOdYo2hlaprFYsnDHrkb mWfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530SA/ZZYx04R4kligNWSBSRY2Xso/XlA5tb3jrr9zT9xrIvVJ5F 6xHA9SdlYuVbUTtSm+nfmbvVhtvboi8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwX9j4vnlnOq4havdCifJLKUUeXEj8xJWrthE0Edro3BHYU2zhAjRx2Jx+XFB3REYAOBbJrdw== X-Received: by 2002:a65:5b04:: with SMTP id y4mr12583983pgq.195.1631562575267; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.133] (c-69-181-169-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [69.181.169.15]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id on6sm5878257pjb.19.2021.09.13.12.49.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_42F7EB2A-C472-4B6B-9F33-499A86D9DC46" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:49:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Cc: Lou Berger , "netmod@ietf.org" , Babel at IETF To: Juergen Schoenwaelder References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 19:49:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_42F7EB2A-C472-4B6B-9F33-499A86D9DC46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads] Hi Juergen, > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: >=20 >> and it references an RFC that says: >>=20 >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. >=20 > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is a > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model = = that use NULL to represent a special meaning. With =E2=80=98babel-route-received-metric=E2=80=99, and = =E2=80=98babel-route-calculated-metric=E2=80=99 values use NULL or 0 to = represent that a route was NOT received. A non-zero value indicates that = a route was received and subsequently advertised. With =E2=80=98babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno=E2=80=99, and = =E2=80=98babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno=E2=80=99 a value of NULL or 0 is = used to represent that a multicast, or unicast hello packets = respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packets = is not enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the = sequence number cannot be a 0. Finally, with =E2=80=98babel-ucast-hello-seqno=E2=80=99 a value of NULL = or 0 is used to represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero = value reflects the current sequence number in use for unicast hellos. = Again, although not explicit, it also means that the sequence number = cannot be a 0. >=20 > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value. > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicate > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs are = not set or the particular attribute is not enabled. Thanks. >=20 > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimming > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: >=20 > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16). >=20 > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bit > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RFC > 9046. >=20 > /js >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_42F7EB2A-C472-4B6B-9F33-499A86D9DC46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two = threads]


Hi = Juergen,


On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, = J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On = Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote:
and it references an = RFC that says:

=      This is a 16-bit unsigned integer;
     if the data model uses zero = (0) to represent NULL values for
=      unsigned integers, the data model MAY use = a different data type
     that = allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL.

We are talking about RFC 9046? = RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several
times but I find it = difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is a
legal = value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time.

There = are five definitions in the Babel YANG model that use NULL to represent a = special meaning.

With = =E2=80=98babel-route-received-metric=E2=80=99, and = =E2=80=98babel-route-calculated-metric=E2=80=99 values use NULL or 0 to = represent that a route was NOT received. A non-zero value indicates that = a route was received and subsequently advertised.

With =E2=80=98babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno=E2=80=99,= and =E2=80=98babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno=E2=80=99 a value of NULL or 0 = is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast hello packets = respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packets = is not enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the = sequence number cannot be a 0.

Finally, with =E2=80=98babel-ucast-hello-seqno=E2=80= =99 a value of NULL or 0 is used to represent a unicast hello is not = being sent. A non-zero value reflects the current sequence number in use = for unicast hellos. Again, although not explicit, it also means that the = sequence number cannot be a 0.


In= YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value.
Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to = indicate
that there is no value, then you have design for = it and reserve and
set aside a special value from the = number space or use a union.

This YANG = model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs are not set = or the particular attribute is not enabled.

Thanks.


RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. = Skimming
RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit = integers:

  Sequence numbers = (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data
=   structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo = 2^(16).

The text in the context makes me = believe they are an unsigned 16-bit
integers. If so, there = simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a
sequence = number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RFC
9046.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com





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Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, does this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or will we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing operational trouble? /js On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads] > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > > > >> and it references an RFC that says: > >> > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is a > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model that use NULL to represent a special meaning. > > With ‘babel-route-received-metric’, and ‘babel-route-calculated-metric’ values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A non-zero value indicates that a route was received and subsequently advertised. > > With ‘babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno’, and ‘babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno’ a value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast hello packets respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packets is not enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the sequence number cannot be a 0. > > Finally, with ‘babel-ucast-hello-seqno’ a value of NULL or 0 is used to represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value reflects the current sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not explicit, it also means that the sequence number cannot be a 0. > > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value. > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicate > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs are not set or the particular attribute is not enabled. > > Thanks. > > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimming > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: > > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16). > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bit > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RFC > > 9046. > > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > > > > > -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Sep 13 14:00:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0189C3A0DB3; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fs6lxXkt5fYu; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 969133A0DB2; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR02MB6924.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 85b6f33c-d5d1-4f81-9a5a-08d976f965d7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2021 20:59:37.6372 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: A3hbkp6kLB5r8qM9iRs0UlEtI8BQm+kvPCPk21iIwrUf4nSyxvg1evYnq6/havet X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR02MB4522 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 26F85C0F8717A82FC2730B275B181E196296613B931DC85C22CA67168D67D2DD2 X-Proofpoint-GUID: WVPkH5dcpaYN3k4vONQ8NCP3LHoBUjxt X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: WVPkH5dcpaYN3k4vONQ8NCP3LHoBUjxt X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-13_09:2021-09-09, 2021-09-13 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=341 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109130124 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:00:46 -0000 I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope I'm under= standing where things are. Comments in-line. > Hi Mahesh, >=20 > management interface usually do not change protocol semantics (for the > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know which > management interfaces control them and their peers). >=20 > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, does > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or will > we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing > operational trouble? Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must not be = confused with NULL. I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to distinguish betwe= en 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distinction must= exist. Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction can= be used. It sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for ha= ndling this. Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid = value of zero to be repurposed to mean NULL. =20 > /js >=20 > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads] > > > > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder > wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > >> and it references an RFC that says: > > >> > > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; > > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for > > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type > > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. > > > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is = a > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. > > > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model > babel-yang-model- > 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04rPj > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meaning. > > > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and 'babel-route-calculated-metric' > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A non-ze= ro > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently advertised. > > > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno' = a > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast hell= o packets > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packets = is not > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the sequence nu= mber > cannot be a 0. > > > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value of NULL or 0 is used to > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value reflects th= e current > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not explicit, = it also > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0. > > > > > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value. > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicate > > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and > > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. > > > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs ar= e not > set or the particular attribute is not enabled. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimmin= g > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: > > > > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data > > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16). > > > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bit > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RF= C > > > 9046. RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do whatever = they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of 0 and a N= ULL value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed integer f= or these parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and 0 to 2^16 represent = actual values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an un= signed integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data mo= deling rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *are*= able to distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value variab= le -- so their GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply= use an unsigned integer.=20 Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their own mechani= sms for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for RFC904= 6 to be proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between nu= ll and 0. Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the na= tive variable is a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate= null as something distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that shoul= d be accomplished. The data model needs to ensure this distinction exists u= sing whatever method makes sense or whatever convention exists for that dat= a modeling language.=20 Barbara From nobody Tue Sep 14 02:11:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9073A11A4; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 02:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XJDXpyFCglHL; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 02:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2122.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 991B23A11A3; 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Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:11:10 +0000 From: tom petch To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , 'Juergen Schoenwaelder' , 'Mahesh Jethanandani' CC: "'netmod@ietf.org'" , 'Babel at IETF' Thread-Topic: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 Thread-Index: AQHXqOJ3MzpuFhRZuUevPT04LZqzwqujMa2/ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:11:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 71f06926-f3a7-4e1c-c374-73145cfb376c authentication-results: att.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;att.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d4c842f2-e7bd-48be-47b0-08d9775f97e5 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM7PR07MB6325: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d4c842f2-e7bd-48be-47b0-08d9775f97e5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 09:11:10.2126 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: lOtZNgywSghKyT570GTohWgpzMnbcr32ab3mr7TtYGAvsxoV1sDIzlm+p0DnkHJP7+Tc/mzDfnIuzlAdbfosWA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6325 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:11:22 -0000 rom: netmod on behalf of STARK, BARBARA H =0A= Sent: 13 September 2021 21:59=0A= =0A= I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope I'm under= standing where things are. Comments in-line.=0A= =0A= > Hi Mahesh,=0A= >=0A= > management interface usually do not change protocol semantics (for the=0A= > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know which=0A= > management interfaces control them and their peers).=0A= >=0A= > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, does=0A= > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence=0A= > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or will=0A= > we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing=0A= > operational trouble?=0A= =0A= Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must not be = confused with NULL.=0A= I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to distinguish betwe= en 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distinction must= exist. Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction can= be used. It sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for ha= ndling this. Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid = value of zero to be repurposed to mean NULL.=0A= =0A= =0A= Barbara,=0A= =0A= Apologies for making a mess of raising this issue; I am struggling with web= mail and a PC that has a mind of its own such that I cannot send e-mails wh= ere I want to or even when I want to:-(=0A= =0A= Anyhow, I agree that the Information model makes it clear the NULL and zero= are different. YANG has no concept of NULL; some languages do, YANG does = not. This raises number of possibilities.=0A= =0A= One is to deviate from the Information Model and treat zero as NULL but I w= ould not expect that to be acceptable.=0A= =0A= Another it to modify the range by making uint16 into int16 and making a neg= ative value represent NULL in this model. Again, I would not expect that t= o be acceptable but you could make it a int32 or uint32 with a range restri= ction such that one value means NULL..=0A= =0A= Another is to make the objects a YANG union of uint16 and something else. = YANG has a built-in type 'empty' which has no value(!) and so a union of ui= nt16 and empty is probably the closest YANG gets. A similar approach is a = union of uint16 and boolean. My YANG is not up to the merits of the two ap= proaches. I have never been comfortable with 'empty' but there is plenty o= f it about in the IETF. By the same token, almost all models have a union i= n the shape of an ip address which is a union of ipv4 address and ipv6 addr= ess; a union is something I am comfortable with.=0A= =0A= I do not know of an exact parallel to what you want to do. I do see 'null'= as one value of the text string in an enumeration which is fine for enumer= ations! I also see the choice/case construct used with one case having a Y= ANG type 'empty' which is perhaps the closest if you do not want to use a u= nion. =0A= =0A= HTH=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= > /js=0A= >=0A= > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote:=0A= > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads]=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > Hi Juergen,=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder=0A= > wrote:=0A= > > >=0A= > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote:=0A= > > >=0A= > > >> and it references an RFC that says:=0A= > > >>=0A= > > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer;=0A= > > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for=0A= > > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data type= =0A= > > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence several= =0A= > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 is = a=0A= > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time.=0A= > >=0A= > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model=0A= > babel-yang-model-=0A= > 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04rPj=0A= > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meaning.=0A= > >=0A= > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and 'babel-route-calculated-metric'= =0A= > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A non-ze= ro=0A= > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently advertised.=0A= > >=0A= > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno' = a=0A= > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast hell= o packets=0A= > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packets = is not=0A= > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the sequence nu= mber=0A= > cannot be a 0.=0A= > >=0A= > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value of NULL or 0 is used to= =0A= > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value reflects th= e current=0A= > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not explicit, = it also=0A= > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0.=0A= > >=0A= > > >=0A= > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value.= =0A= > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicate= =0A= > > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and= =0A= > > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union.=0A= > >=0A= > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs ar= e not=0A= > set or the particular attribute is not enabled.=0A= > >=0A= > > Thanks.=0A= > >=0A= > > >=0A= > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimmin= g=0A= > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers:=0A= > > >=0A= > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data=0A= > > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16).=0A= > > >=0A= > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bit= =0A= > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a= =0A= > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in RF= C=0A= > > > 9046.=0A= =0A= RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do whatever = they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of 0 and a N= ULL value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed integer f= or these parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and 0 to 2^16 represent = actual values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an un= signed integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data mo= deling rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *are*= able to distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value variab= le -- so their GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply= use an unsigned integer.=0A= =0A= Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their own mechani= sms for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for RFC904= 6 to be proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between nu= ll and 0. Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the na= tive variable is a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate= null as something distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that shoul= d be accomplished. The data model needs to ensure this distinction exists u= sing whatever method makes sense or whatever convention exists for that dat= a modeling language.=0A= Barbara=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Tue Sep 14 04:29:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA7A3A176A; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 04:29:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sz965qj-tnIE; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 04:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 903053A1768; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 04:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/82085) with ESMTP id 18EBTTuv020028; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:29:29 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0291F23ED; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:29:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id IzLCh4_fzo5x; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.irif.fr (unknown [172.23.36.89]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22439F23EB; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:29:27 +0200 Message-ID: <871r5r2y5k.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: tom petch Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , "'Juergen Schoenwaelder'" , "'Mahesh Jethanandani'" , "'Babel at IETF'" , "'netmod@ietf.org'" In-Reply-To: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/27.1 Mule/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:29:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 61408799.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 61408799.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 61408799.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:29:45 -0000 >> the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must not be >> confused with NULL. This is true for both seqnos and metrics. A route with metric 0 is perfectly valid, and in fact the value 0 is the default for a directly connected prefix. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Sep 14 06:52:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B508A3A1F7A; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzCLZoJT5Jqt; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 06:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8039C3A1F72; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR02MB6924.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7337d7b5-ea08-41dc-a8c7-08d97786c500 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 13:51:36.2590 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Av4dFpwwdzDXE0rOUwG73QPor4IE//DR0BVt+TzqmOxf7nO3H+Zr7Q8yU47UqmZw X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR02MB6155 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 59B7EEB38A6A39729CC3A634E11AAE88DB32EB7C5405701FFF958F7FCCFD30392 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: BjB-UtKKwGJW9YON_aM5FXpec2e5FJ8c X-Proofpoint-GUID: BjB-UtKKwGJW9YON_aM5FXpec2e5FJ8c X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-14_03:2021-09-14, 2021-09-14 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109140085 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:51:57 -0000 > I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope I'm > understanding where things are. Comments in-line. >=20 > > Hi Mahesh, > > > > management interface usually do not change protocol semantics (for the > > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know which > > management interfaces control them and their peers). > > > > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, does > > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence > > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or will > > we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing > > operational trouble? >=20 > Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must not b= e > confused with NULL. > I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to distinguish bet= ween > 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distinction must = exist. > Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction can be us= ed. It > sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for handling this= . > Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid value of ze= ro to > be repurposed to mean NULL. >=20 > > Barbara, >=20 > Apologies for making a mess of raising this issue; I am struggling with w= ebmail > and a PC that has a mind of its own such that I cannot send e-mails where= I want > to or even when I want to:-( >=20 > Anyhow, I agree that the Information model makes it clear the NULL and ze= ro > are different. YANG has no concept of NULL; some languages do, YANG does > not. This raises number of possibilities. >=20 > One is to deviate from the Information Model and treat zero as NULL but I > would not expect that to be acceptable. >=20 > Another it to modify the range by making uint16 into int16 and making a > negative value represent NULL in this model. Again, I would not expect t= hat to > be acceptable but you could make it a int32 or uint32 with a range restri= ction > such that one value means NULL.. >=20 > Another is to make the objects a YANG union of uint16 and something else. > YANG has a built-in type 'empty' which has no value(!) and so a union of = uint16 > and empty is probably the closest YANG gets. A similar approach is a uni= on of > uint16 and boolean. My YANG is not up to the merits of the two approache= s. I > have never been comfortable with 'empty' but there is plenty of it about = in the > IETF. By the same token, almost all models have a union in the shape of a= n ip > address which is a union of ipv4 address and ipv6 address; a union is som= ething I > am comfortable with. >=20 > I do not know of an exact parallel to what you want to do. I do see 'nul= l' as one > value of the text string in an enumeration which is fine for enumerations= ! I also > see the choice/case construct used with one case having a YANG type 'empt= y' > which is perhaps the closest if you do not want to use a union. >=20 > HTH >=20 > Tom Petch Hi Tom, Thanks for making this an issue! I think it's important that we get it righ= t. This is something Mahesh and I have discussed several times (and we still a= pparently didn't get it right). As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 meaning NU= LL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The language in RFC904= 6 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since this is how it= 's done in TR-181. I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a pref= erred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack of YANG= expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. I can = only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range 0 to 2^1= 6 and NULL value for these parameters.=20 Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have expres= sed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those words. I= apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently clear.=20 Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like to unde= rstand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in the infor= mation model was definitely intended to express the acceptability of using = this approach from a Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's how it wou= ld be done in TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with YANG exper= tise? I think my preference would be to use this approach, since it would p= rovide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG models. Thanks again for raising this issue. Barbara > > /js > > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads] > > > > > > > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > > > >> and it references an RFC that says: > > > >> > > > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; > > > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for > > > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data ty= pe > > > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. > > > > > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence sever= al > > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 i= s a > > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. > > > > > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model > > > babel-yang-model- > > > 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04rPj > > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meaning. > > > > > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and 'babel-route-calculated-metri= c' > > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A non-= zero > > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently advertised. > > > > > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno= ' a > > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast he= llo > packets > > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packet= s is > not > > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the sequence = number > > cannot be a 0. > > > > > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value of NULL or 0 is used = to > > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value reflects = the > current > > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not explicit= , it also > > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0. > > > > > > > > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value. > > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicat= e > > > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and > > > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. > > > > > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs = are not > > set or the particular attribute is not enabled. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimm= ing > > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: > > > > > > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data > > > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16). > > > > > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bi= t > > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a > > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in = RFC > > > > 9046. >=20 > RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do whateve= r > they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of 0 and a= NULL > value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed integer for= these > parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and 0 to 2^16 represent actual > values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an unsigne= d > integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data modelin= g > rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *are* able= to > distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value variable -- s= o their > GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply use an unsig= ned > integer. >=20 > Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their own mecha= nisms > for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for RFC9046 = to be > proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between null and= 0. > Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the native var= iable is > a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate null as someth= ing > distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that should be accomplished= . The > data model needs to ensure this distinction exists using whatever method = makes > sense or whatever convention exists for that data modeling language. > Barbara >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod_= _; > !!BhdT!z9HMtl5ev04-D11rq22Qye-5_sscMd1C- > sWwIDBqeMrQ2tPPXauYRZI_wB2KAA$ From nobody Tue Sep 14 07:56:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D466C3A2266 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 07:56:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8a35f9a0-a15b-4680-7339-08d9778fbb26 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 14:55:45.2418 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: XzceVe+i4mptVCYLgvUKAOt0/bIlKwBAYS8Q1LIG73KarnaD+dYTIhCBcj11g2gy2FxJM8N3GS+JoVab0BLsNQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR1101MB2195 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.20, xbe-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:56:01 -0000 Carsten raised a point at the mic at IETF111 that the chosen character=0A= '#' to separate the module name and module revision-label in filenames=0A= is problematic. Currently, the YANG module versioning draft says that=0A= if you want to use revision-label within the filename, you use=0A= MODULE_NAME#REVISION_LABEL (e.g., my-module#3.2.3.yang). The reason for=0A= a new character is not to confuse existing tools that expect a=0A= revision-date to follow '@'.=0A= =0A= Carsten mentioned that '#' causes problem with shells and within URLs. =0A= While the position of the '#' in the name does not actually trigger=0A= issues with shells (it would if the filename began with a '#'), it does=0A= indeed cause issues in URLs if it's not encoded. For example,=0A= https://example.com/my-module#3.2.3.yang will result in a 404 since a=0A= file "my-module" does not exist. Jan also pointed out that '#' will=0A= cause issues in Makefiles, causing developers to have to escape them.=0A= =0A= On the last meeting, the authors and contributors spent some time=0A= running down other characters options, but all have their issues and=0A= require escaping or encoding. The consensus on that call was that the #=0A= --> %23 URL encoding won't be as burdensome as initially thought. =0A= Platforms like GitHub (or its ilk) -- which are popular for hosting=0A= modules -- will do this encoding automatically and downloading the=0A= module will produce a filename with the un-encoded '#'. Additionally,=0A= yang-library location will have the encoded version of the URL (likely=0A= generated by tooling), which clients then download and typically get the=0A= un-encoded '#'.=0A= =0A= Ultimately, we do not foresee filesystems cluttered with "%23" in=0A= filenames nor do we expect a great deal of manual typing of "%23". Yes,=0A= the '#' will cause some additional developer work for use in Makefiles,=0A= but the authors feel this is acceptable given the overall impact of=0A= choosing another character.=0A= =0A= More details on this, including our run-down of other characters can be=0A= found in GitHub Issue #104=0A= (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/104).=0A= =0A= Joe on behalf of the YANG versioning authors and contributors=0A= From nobody Tue Sep 14 08:25:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E893A232A for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0A49_01D7A98D.5E596A00" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f272fff3-d72a-411a-cb98-08d97793be64 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 15:24:28.6934 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Heft7wHdWyXYm3NZvwl4xmE9q0Atuxj6Ewz3iMoyLLbrhWfQvCi0b3bbC6YH+1FaE5iiqr5qakQoSY4WZAvlRD7d0+vgcniFBvg793gCi6E= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8107 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:25:07 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0A49_01D7A98D.5E596A00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0A4A_01D7A98D.5E596A00" ------=_NextPart_001_0A4A_01D7A98D.5E596A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, My view is that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might = be acceptable, but it is wrong, because: 1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC = 6243 ; Section 3 = ." (See line = 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are = inappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, = capabilities) 2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report = default data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and UC5 is about = reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the instance-data-set is usually = prepared by human SW developers which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not = know whether this is about reporting, replying, or just sending the = data.=20 In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who = creates the instance-data and why. There are so many potential = use-cases, that they may have very different processes creating and = using the data. The data is just present or absent. The wording in = With-default RFC is too specific: =E2=80=9Cdata is reported = ...=E2=80=9D. 3. report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML = attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can = have an attribute in JSON, but here specifically an XML attribute is = mentioned. 4. Rob, you stated that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms SHALL, = SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the good = solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is covered by = the instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be adhered to. = The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like =E2=80=9Cis = reported=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot reported=E2=80=9D. =20 That said, if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I = can accept the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward. I am willing to have a conference, would you arrange it? Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) =20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 13., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05 To: Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = Cc: NetMod WG Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 I=E2=80=99m wondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting = to get to consensus on this issue (which I believe is important)? =20 The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that the data set = is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that default values are = removed from the data set. Hence, I think that those two choices = combine to make it impossible for a consumer of an instance data file to = know whether a data node has been excluded because it contained the = default value vs it has been excluded because it not part of the data = set. =20 However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the perspective = that if these instance data files represent configuration then = understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important. = To that end, I quite like Andy=E2=80=99s suggestion of directly reusing = the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the = definitions are entirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to = address my concern. leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; } Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked description, or = assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that this = could be made to work for you? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 September 2021 18:03 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: See below as BALAZS4 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, See below as BALAZS3. =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach. BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata = retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual = data nodes set by the server=E2=80=9D These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I would like to stick with including text here. =20 =20 =20 I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf = "with-defaults-mode" typedef cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already = know how to deal with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. =20 =20 leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; } =20 I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. Andy BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I = avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: * It references = RFC 6243; = Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data = retrieval, capabilities) * The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report = default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. * report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML = attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding * I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. Is this acceptable? =20 =20 =20 The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3. It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all. The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes. =20 IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users. includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't. It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different = things. =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 } } description "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, thus any data node MAY be absent. =20 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set includes data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the same as the default value. =20 Data nodes that have no default values should always be included. Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual value is not equal to the schema defined default should always be included."; =20 =20 AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default are not relevant to this object. BALAZS3: OK =20 reference "RFC 6243 : = With-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; } =20 The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data = set is to include the "default" attribute in each default node. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution). BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. Here is the current proposed text: ------------------------------------------------------------ leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values, if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set."; } enum report-all-tagged { value 2; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set. Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; } =20 enum trim { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is equal to the schema default =20 value SHALL NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 4; description "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the=20 schema default value SHALL NOT be included.=20 However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF=20 client or other management application by the way=20 of an explicit management operation, the data node=20 SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by=20 the instance-data-set."; } } description "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default=20 data. This leaf indicates whether default data is=20 included.=20 =20 As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data=20 sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or=20 leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set=20 does not intend to include the data node independent=20 of default handling."; reference "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; }=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed. =20 I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as = instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is = the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set. As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to = specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the = handling used for this specific instance data set. =20 Regards Balazs =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 =20 =20 I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to represent "no defaults added". =20 Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a = leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly = identify defaults in this case. =20 Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults = ever reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; Andy Bierman >; NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0A4A_01D7A98D.5E596A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

My view is that reusing the data = ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might be acceptable, but it is wrong, = because:

  1. As opposed to what = Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC 6243; Section = 3." (See line 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot = of concepts that are inappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, = data retrieval, capabilities)
  2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to = report default data." From the 8 listed use-cases = only two UC4 and UC5 is about reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the = instance-data-set is usually prepared by human SW developers which is = not reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether this is about reporting, = replying, or just sending the data.

In the instance-data = draft we always avoided assumptions about who creates the instance-data = and why. There are so many potential use-cases, that they may have very = different processes creating and using the data. =C2=A0The data is just = present or absent. The wording in With-default RFC is too specific: = =E2=80=9Cdata is reported ...=E2=80=9D.

  1. report-all-tagged = description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect = if we use JSON encoding. You can have an attribute in JSON, but here = specifically an XML attribute is mentioned.
  2. Rob, you stated =C2=A0that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms = SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the = good solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is = covered by the instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be = adhered to. The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like = =E2=80=9Cis reported=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot = reported=E2=80=9D.

 

That said, = if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I can accept = the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward.
I am willing to = have a conference, would you arrange it?

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 13., = h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05
To: Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

I=E2=80=99m wondering whether it = might be helpful to arrange a meeting to get to consensus on this issue = (which I believe is important)?

 

The concern that I raised in my = original AD review was that the data set is allowed to be partial with = the RECOMMENDATION that default values are removed from the data = set.  Hence, I think that those two choices combine to make it = impossible for a consumer of an instance data file to know whether a = data node has been excluded because it contained the default value vs it = has been excluded because it not part of the data = set.

 

However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the = perspective that if these instance data files represent configuration = then understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is = important.  To that end,  I quite like Andy=E2=80=99s = suggestion of directly reusing the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because = it guarantees that the definitions are entirely consistent, and I = believe that it sufficient to address my = concern.

  =    leaf includes-defaults {

  =        type = ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

  =    }

Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked = description, or assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults = leaf, that this could be made to work for you?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

 

From: Andy = Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> =
Sent: 10 September 2021 18:03
To: Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

See below = as BALAZS4

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, Sep = 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Andy,

See below = as BALAZS3.

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 25., szerda 18:29
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi,

 <= /o:p>

Here is the = latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section = 3.

IMO the = subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about = =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by the = server=E2=80=9D

These parts are not relevant for many of the = instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with including text = here.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I guess I = do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf = "with-defaults-mode" typedef

cannot be = used. IMO this is bad practice.  Applications that already know how = to deal

with = defaults according to RFC 6243 should be = supported.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

  =    leaf includes-defaults {

  =        type = ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

  =    }

 <= /o:p>

I do not = see any text in this typedef that is = server-specific.

Andy

BALAZS4:  While I generally agree that = duplication is a bad practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode = because:

=C2=B7        =
It references RFC 6243; Section 3 =
which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, =
capabilities)
=C2=B7        =
The typedef=E2=80=99s description =
is "Possible modes to report default data." However, in a =
number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading default configuration data, =
UC7, U8) the data is not reported.
=C2=B7        =
report-all-tagged description =
contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use =
JSON encoding
=C2=B7        =
I prefer to use the 2119 term =
SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum =
descriptions.
Is this acceptable?
 

 

 

The data type I suggested does not = have any references to section 3.

It does not have any = MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all.

The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 = supports attributes.

 

IMO this leaf will cause a lot of = confusion for users.

includes-defaults looks like = with-defaults but it isn't.

It uses the exact same enums as = with-defaults, but they mean different = things.

 

 

Andy

 

 <= /o:p>

   =
leaf includes-defaults {
         =
type enumeration {
        &nb=
sp;  enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;    value 1;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        &nb=
sp;      "All data nodes SHOULD be =
included independent of
        &nb=
sp;        any default =
values.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, 3.1
        &nb=
sp;  }
        &nb=
sp;  enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;    value 2;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        =
       "Data nodes that have a =
default defined and where
        &nb=
sp;        the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;        NOT be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.2
        &nb=
sp;  }
        &nb=
sp;  enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;    value 3;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        &nb=
sp;      "Data nodes that have a default =
defined and where
        &nb=
sp;        the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;        included. However, if the =
actual value was set by
        &nb=
sp;        a NETCONF client or other =
management application
        &nb=
sp;        by the way of an explicit =
management operation the
        &nb=
sp;        data node SHOULD be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.3
        &nb=
sp;  }
         =
}
         =
description
        &nb=
sp;  "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =
sets,
        &nb=
sp;    thus any data node MAY be =
absent.
 
        &nb=
sp;    Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain =
a
        &nb=
sp;    full data set, this leaf specifies whether the =
data set
        &nb=
sp;    includes data nodes that have a default defined =
and
        &nb=
sp;    where the actual value is the same as the default =
value.
 
        &nb=
sp;    Data nodes that have no default values should =
always
        &nb=
sp;    be included.
        &nb=
sp;    Data nodes that have a default value, but the =
actual
        &nb=
sp;    value is not equal to the schema defined =
default
        &nb=
sp;    should always be =
included.";
 
 
AB: The last =
paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes =
special?
Nodes that are actually present and do not contain =
the YANG default
are not relevant =
to this object.
BALAZS3: OK
 
         =
reference
        &nb=
sp;  "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for =
NETCONF";
       =
}

 <= /o:p>

The best = way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data set is to = include

the = "default" attribute in each default node. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6=

This = actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution).

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to = includes-defaults leaf.

Here is the current proposed = text:

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

    leaf includes-defaults = {

      type enumeration = {

        enum = report-all {

         =  value 1;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

        &= nbsp;     any default values, if the data node =

        &= nbsp;     is covered by the = instance-data-set.";

        = }

        enum = report-all-tagged  {

        &= nbsp; value 2;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

        &= nbsp;     any default values if the data node =

        &= nbsp;     is covered by the = instance-data-set.

        &= nbsp;     Any nodes considered to be default data = SHALL

      =         contain a 'default' = attribute set to 'true'";

        = }       

        e= num trim {

        &= nbsp; value 3;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "Data nodes that have a default defined and = where

        &= nbsp;     the actual value is equal to the schema = default 

        &= nbsp;     value SHALL NOT be = included.";

        = }

        enum = explicit {

        &= nbsp; value 4;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to = the

        &= nbsp;     schema default value SHALL NOT be = included.

        &= nbsp;     However, if the actual value was set = by a NETCONF

        &= nbsp;     client or other management = application by the way

        &= nbsp;     of an explicit management operation, = the data node

        &= nbsp;     SHALL be included, if the data node = is covered by

        &= nbsp;     the = instance-data-set.";

        = }

      = }

      = description

        = "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default =

        &= nbsp; data. This leaf indicates whether default data is =

        &= nbsp; included.

        &= nbsp; 

        &= nbsp; As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =

        &= nbsp; sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or =

        &= nbsp; leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set =

        &= nbsp; does not intend to include the data node independent =

        &= nbsp; of default handling.";

      = reference

        = "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for = NETCONF

         = RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";

    }

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue, Aug = 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Andy,

In the -17 = I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed.

 <= /o:p>

I am not = sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does = not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single = leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific = instance-data-set.

As this is = not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to specify a = basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling used = for this specific instance data set.

 <= /o:p>

Regards = Balazs

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Rob,

I think = this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections = 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data =
files MAY contain partial data =
sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is =
important for many use-cases.  This means you cannot say that a =
default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because =
they are not part of the partial data =
set.
In a way it =
is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing =
because
-        They are not =
part of the partial data-set
-        They are =
omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or =
explicit options is used
If this =
becomes important the report-all =
options =
shall be used.
 =

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I thought = we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to

represent = "no defaults added".

 <= /o:p>

Note that = "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, = since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be = set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify = defaults in this case.

 <= /o:p>

Also note = that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever = reported.

This mode = means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always = returns

every node = (if with-defaults used or not).

 <= /o:p>

This is the =
reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards =
Balazs

 <= /o:p>

Andy

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to = strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses = MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: = 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address = Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the = use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for = the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value = case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate = whether default values are in use is because of this definition of = operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a = consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)          = ;     This value is not = present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)          = ;    This value is not present = because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., = perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not = available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and = is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of = a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in = effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain = and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured = by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would = be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we = need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in = the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July = 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: = Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default = trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the = basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the information is either not = known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug = because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in = deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs = is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       =
type enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default =
values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be =
included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       =
}
       =
default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB1339 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.20, xbe-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:00:33 -0000 Hi Joe, Sorry, I was on PTO for the meeting where this was discussed. I don't thin= k that it is great that the character needs to be encoded in a URL. It wou= ld seem to make references to YANG files in YANG packages a lot more awkwar= d to read/write. Perhaps reusing '@' is pragmatically the best choice. We already have the = constraint that a revision label cannot match the format of a revision-date= anyway. Or, alternatively, if we really want to differentiate, then could '@@' work= ? Rob // As an author/contributor. > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Joe Clarke (jclarke) > Sent: 14 September 2021 15:56 > To: netmod@ietf.org > Subject: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames >=20 > Carsten raised a point at the mic at IETF111 that the chosen character '#= ' to > separate the module name and module revision-label in filenames is > problematic. Currently, the YANG module versioning draft says that if yo= u > want to use revision-label within the filename, you use > MODULE_NAME#REVISION_LABEL (e.g., my-module#3.2.3.yang). The reason > for a new character is not to confuse existing tools that expect a revisi= on- > date to follow '@'. >=20 > Carsten mentioned that '#' causes problem with shells and within URLs. > While the position of the '#' in the name does not actually trigger issue= s with > shells (it would if the filename began with a '#'), it does indeed cause = issues > in URLs if it's not encoded. For example, https://example.com/my- > module#3.2.3.yang will result in a 404 since a file "my-module" does not > exist. Jan also pointed out that '#' will cause issues in Makefiles, cau= sing > developers to have to escape them. >=20 > On the last meeting, the authors and contributors spent some time running > down other characters options, but all have their issues and require esca= ping > or encoding. The consensus on that call was that the # > --> %23 URL encoding won't be as burdensome as initially thought. > Platforms like GitHub (or its ilk) -- which are popular for hosting modul= es -- > will do this encoding automatically and downloading the module will produ= ce > a filename with the un-encoded '#'. Additionally, yang-library location = will > have the encoded version of the URL (likely generated by tooling), which > clients then download and typically get the un-encoded '#'. >=20 > Ultimately, we do not foresee filesystems cluttered with "%23" in filenam= es > nor do we expect a great deal of manual typing of "%23". Yes, the '#' wi= ll > cause some additional developer work for use in Makefiles, but the author= s > feel this is acceptable given the overall impact of choosing another char= acter. >=20 > More details on this, including our run-down of other characters can be > found in GitHub Issue #104 (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver- > dt/issues/104). >=20 > Joe on behalf of the YANG versioning authors and contributors >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Tue Sep 14 09:19:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6CF3A249C; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 96fb7b83-cac2-4e42-b100-08d9779b6366 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 16:19:12.0438 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: oQSR5KexeAVzG7GctEKnkolDF0uIdlwUtTeXXgWkbdPzo18cUvR5zUEsMf52aD6esI7dfRyuNJzpkRVDBYaXNw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8PR07MB7559 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:19:23 -0000 =0A= =0A= From: STARK, BARBARA H =0A= Sent: 14 September 2021 14:51=0A= =0A= > I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope I'm=0A= > understanding where things are. Comments in-line.=0A= >=0A= > > Hi Mahesh,=0A= > >=0A= > > management interface usually do not change protocol semantics (for the= =0A= > > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know which=0A= > > management interfaces control them and their peers).=0A= > >=0A= > > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, does= =0A= > > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence=0A= > > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or will=0A= > > we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing=0A= > > operational trouble?=0A= >=0A= > Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must not b= e=0A= > confused with NULL.=0A= > I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to distinguish bet= ween=0A= > 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distinction must = exist.=0A= > Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction can be us= ed. It=0A= > sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for handling this= .=0A= > Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid value of ze= ro to=0A= > be repurposed to mean NULL.=0A= >=0A= > =0A= > Barbara,=0A= >=0A= > Apologies for making a mess of raising this issue; I am struggling with w= ebmail=0A= > and a PC that has a mind of its own such that I cannot send e-mails where= I want=0A= > to or even when I want to:-(=0A= >=0A= > Anyhow, I agree that the Information model makes it clear the NULL and ze= ro=0A= > are different. YANG has no concept of NULL; some languages do, YANG does= =0A= > not. This raises number of possibilities.=0A= >=0A= > One is to deviate from the Information Model and treat zero as NULL but I= =0A= > would not expect that to be acceptable.=0A= >=0A= > Another it to modify the range by making uint16 into int16 and making a= =0A= > negative value represent NULL in this model. Again, I would not expect t= hat to=0A= > be acceptable but you could make it a int32 or uint32 with a range restri= ction=0A= > such that one value means NULL..=0A= >=0A= > Another is to make the objects a YANG union of uint16 and something else.= =0A= > YANG has a built-in type 'empty' which has no value(!) and so a union of = uint16=0A= > and empty is probably the closest YANG gets. A similar approach is a uni= on of=0A= > uint16 and boolean. My YANG is not up to the merits of the two approache= s. I=0A= > have never been comfortable with 'empty' but there is plenty of it about = in the=0A= > IETF. By the same token, almost all models have a union in the shape of a= n ip=0A= > address which is a union of ipv4 address and ipv6 address; a union is som= ething I=0A= > am comfortable with.=0A= >=0A= > I do not know of an exact parallel to what you want to do. I do see 'nul= l' as one=0A= > value of the text string in an enumeration which is fine for enumerations= ! I also=0A= > see the choice/case construct used with one case having a YANG type 'empt= y'=0A= > which is perhaps the closest if you do not want to use a union.=0A= >=0A= > HTH=0A= >=0A= > Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Hi Tom,=0A= Thanks for making this an issue! I think it's important that we get it righ= t.=0A= This is something Mahesh and I have discussed several times (and we still a= pparently didn't get it right).=0A= As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 meaning NU= LL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The language in RFC904= 6 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since this is how it= 's done in TR-181.=0A= I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a pref= erred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack of YANG= expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. I can = only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range 0 to 2^1= 6 and NULL value for these parameters.=0A= Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have expres= sed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those words. I= apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently clear.=0A= =0A= Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like to unde= rstand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in the infor= mation model was definitely intended to express the acceptability of using = this approach from a Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's how it wou= ld be done in TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with YANG exper= tise? I think my preference would be to use this approach, since it would p= rovide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG models.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Barbara=0A= =0A= I think that the TR-181 approach would be fine in YANG, using int32 in plac= e of the current uint16 and adding a YANG range constraint and would have t= he advantage of consistency (assuming that all such leaves are currently ui= nt16).=0A= =0A= I tend to see the use of -1 to stand for something else as the sort of thin= g I had to do programming assembler or some such because the language did n= ot have the constructs I wanted i.e. not quite nice. YANG does have 'empty= ' and so I would see the use of choice/case, with 'empty' as one such, as u= sed by other authors, as the more proper solution but that would be differe= nt to TR-181 (which I am not familiar with).. Swings and roundabouts. J= uergen, Lada, Martin and co have greater expertise than I in YANG so I woul= d defer to their judgement.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= p.s. I find RFC9046 clear:-)=0A= =0A= Thanks again for raising this issue.=0A= Barbara=0A= =0A= > > /js=0A= > >=0A= > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote:=0A= > > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads]=0A= > > >=0A= > > >=0A= > > > Hi Juergen,=0A= > > >=0A= > > >=0A= > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder=0A= > > wrote:=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote:=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > >> and it references an RFC that says:=0A= > > > >>=0A= > > > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer;=0A= > > > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values for= =0A= > > > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data ty= pe=0A= > > > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL.=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence sever= al=0A= > > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0 i= s a=0A= > > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time.= =0A= > > >=0A= > > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model=0A= > > > babel-yang-model-=0A= > >=0A= > 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04rPj=0A= > > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meaning.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and 'babel-route-calculated-metri= c'=0A= > > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A non-= zero=0A= > > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently advertised.= =0A= > > >=0A= > > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'babel-exp-ucast-hello-seqno= ' a=0A= > > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast he= llo=0A= > packets=0A= > > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast packet= s is=0A= > not=0A= > > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the sequence = number=0A= > > cannot be a 0.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value of NULL or 0 is used = to=0A= > > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value reflects = the=0A= > current=0A= > > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not explicit= , it also=0A= > > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a value.= =0A= > > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indicat= e=0A= > > > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve and= =0A= > > > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leafs = are not=0A= > > set or the particular attribute is not enabled.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > Thanks.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. Skimm= ing=0A= > > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers:=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data=0A= > > > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16).= =0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-bi= t=0A= > > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that a= =0A= > > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text in = RFC=0A= > > > > 9046.=0A= >=0A= > RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do whateve= r=0A= > they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of 0 and a= NULL=0A= > value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed integer for= these=0A= > parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and 0 to 2^16 represent actual= =0A= > values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an unsigne= d=0A= > integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data modelin= g=0A= > rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *are* able= to=0A= > distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value variable -- s= o their=0A= > GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply use an unsig= ned=0A= > integer.=0A= >=0A= > Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their own mecha= nisms=0A= > for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for RFC9046 = to be=0A= > proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between null and= 0.=0A= > Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the native var= iable is=0A= > a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate null as someth= ing=0A= > distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that should be accomplished= . The=0A= > data model needs to ensure this distinction exists using whatever method = makes=0A= > sense or whatever convention exists for that data modeling language.=0A= > Barbara=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > netmod mailing list=0A= > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod_= _;=0A= > !!BhdT!z9HMtl5ev04-D11rq22Qye-5_sscMd1C-=0A= > sWwIDBqeMrQ2tPPXauYRZI_wB2KAA$=0A= From nobody Tue Sep 14 09:57:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9413A25C7 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:56:38 +0000 From: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Revision-labels within filenames Thread-Index: AQHXqXiY/tAhgjp89U2CmU+lMB5zug== Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:56:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6ed4dbaa-8251-4179-3d64-08d977a09e9e x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3651: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:565; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6ed4dbaa-8251-4179-3d64-08d977a09e9e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 16:56:38.7357 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dFqP+cS827dBJ45erVKzyNf30qUnMcdxcVWOs9hNrX/qcTMdanrn3QrvWpJ0NLQXAHxBqQs/cG/P/sNzax9NpQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR11MB3651 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.17, xbe-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:57:01 -0000 On 9/14/21 12:01, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:=0A= > Hi Joe,=0A= >=0A= > Sorry, I was on PTO for the meeting where this was discussed. I don't th= ink that it is great that the character needs to be encoded in a URL. It w= ould seem to make references to YANG files in YANG packages a lot more awkw= ard to read/write.=0A= =0A= The writing here will likely still be programmatically driven, but I get=0A= the reading argument. While client automation won't care, a user=0A= reading %233.2.3 does not as easily grok that as #3.2.3. That said, I=0A= wouldn't use the URL as a means to get the revision-label. I'd use the=0A= revision leaf in the package for a given module.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > Perhaps reusing '@' is pragmatically the best choice. We already have th= e constraint that a revision label cannot match the format of a revision-da= te anyway.=0A= >=0A= > Or, alternatively, if we really want to differentiate, then could '@@' wo= rk?=0A= =0A= @@ was discussed, but would likely still trip up current tools that=0A= expect '@' followed by a revision date. But if we're good with=0A= disrupting this, I'd prefer we overload the single '@'.=0A= =0A= Joe=0A= =0A= >=0A= > Rob=0A= > // As an author/contributor.=0A= >=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: netmod On Behalf Of Joe Clarke (jclarke)= =0A= >> Sent: 14 September 2021 15:56=0A= >> To: netmod@ietf.org=0A= >> Subject: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames=0A= >>=0A= >> Carsten raised a point at the mic at IETF111 that the chosen character '= #' to=0A= >> separate the module name and module revision-label in filenames is=0A= >> problematic. Currently, the YANG module versioning draft says that if y= ou=0A= >> want to use revision-label within the filename, you use=0A= >> MODULE_NAME#REVISION_LABEL (e.g., my-module#3.2.3.yang). The reason=0A= >> for a new character is not to confuse existing tools that expect a revis= ion-=0A= >> date to follow '@'.=0A= >>=0A= >> Carsten mentioned that '#' causes problem with shells and within URLs.= =0A= >> While the position of the '#' in the name does not actually trigger issu= es with=0A= >> shells (it would if the filename began with a '#'), it does indeed cause= issues=0A= >> in URLs if it's not encoded. For example, https://example.com/my-=0A= >> module#3.2.3.yang will result in a 404 since a file "my-module" does not= =0A= >> exist. Jan also pointed out that '#' will cause issues in Makefiles, ca= using=0A= >> developers to have to escape them.=0A= >>=0A= >> On the last meeting, the authors and contributors spent some time runnin= g=0A= >> down other characters options, but all have their issues and require esc= aping=0A= >> or encoding. The consensus on that call was that the #=0A= >> --> %23 URL encoding won't be as burdensome as initially thought.=0A= >> Platforms like GitHub (or its ilk) -- which are popular for hosting modu= les --=0A= >> will do this encoding automatically and downloading the module will prod= uce=0A= >> a filename with the un-encoded '#'. Additionally, yang-library location= will=0A= >> have the encoded version of the URL (likely generated by tooling), which= =0A= >> clients then download and typically get the un-encoded '#'.=0A= >>=0A= >> Ultimately, we do not foresee filesystems cluttered with "%23" in filena= mes=0A= >> nor do we expect a great deal of manual typing of "%23". Yes, the '#' w= ill=0A= >> cause some additional developer work for use in Makefiles, but the autho= rs=0A= >> feel this is acceptable given the overall impact of choosing another cha= racter.=0A= >>=0A= >> More details on this, including our run-down of other characters can be= =0A= >> found in GitHub Issue #104 (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-=0A= >> dt/issues/104).=0A= >>=0A= >> Joe on behalf of the YANG versioning authors and contributors=0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> netmod mailing list=0A= >> netmod@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= =0A= From nobody Tue Sep 14 10:09:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E0A3A25EE for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5VhEP08pitZ for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB01F3A25E7 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id k13so30335626lfv.2 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/EP6BdQJQW43NLOckLC9bLaMz2GhvxCVOdHm3oSQlsM=; b=YPLubhV1dvCmCXBZLKEMk65IG/OSqIxN+w66XPVvtdtAGVumtw1DKwSCHNgvrJKL9k tYmXiEbC1M1vkmUfMRe+IrBV0L5766aV+5hbiwRmJGECppE2Nk7xiXpwqltqsr/ERLsy g0+1+WRIiHx5DeGIs+IDj3aXrs6O06bOb701uPoAWTq4rSOsAo0NeDayB3EVJeKQ2hr0 oOXqWP7XbBsoFZ3S9NBJhTm1mC+gHOQllDUWcqGE6ulGp0djmqeltnefX/ctoPBeGlT1 wCYNSXTWzSd3zAJeipk5lRtFgEzvwh3jNRfEfWxQ2b2GzM71M5BZgh7IIKKhs1+H6ZqO ePGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/EP6BdQJQW43NLOckLC9bLaMz2GhvxCVOdHm3oSQlsM=; b=KGrDNXVXudQ0CJVO8OW5MqxvNBvNJO7vc3CjUwrpKpobVUgnIQPcqnAe5PAQ9cTAAL 6Mscb6/R3/4azoWDjwSDVAEvUsoZkxwcHaOpMwdMjuXwqjV3grmZxKL7MOH6ohUkNxfK LtkvuR7kndBceTlabxdLxg0kKFIpaNQJKtZc6E94/IXL/apCqANLiS4HWHzQG2vwAZgV f0gJi8IF8BX3NIRUwrr6cDxLoVaHDhiHRqnbuaw+3/5mrC/IYocQB0yZm9H5Sc+t6WJ8 yn67omFesQDERW16Ataf6T8YkC/hqYdVBdTFkfwzU87vDPyu8s+zhbQU9AoH18Zpj41l 2tJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325+2y9qvszMTeQnvzYxB7Vf+IKx0H9cv1UWRAZs+EnNmuPS9X5 uF3RbBEFYEkFLUd8izrbUUMRFDomGZb/5DIKBYYMHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzS9K+mROqWS57Sra0d/ySecJH5/u46AkFQ6DxY/RdXwgy2ZZKkvP1egT6tnb0kbHxHmRa8ypPUCdzNDIFpyMY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3e0c:: with SMTP id i12mr10105830lfv.10.1631639328929; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:08:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:08:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a514705cbf7a26a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:09:00 -0000 --0000000000009a514705cbf7a26a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I do not have time for a conference on this leaf. You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not confusing to users= . I disagree. IMO it is less confusing to use the correct typedef and declare in your leaf description-stmt that the inclusion of defaults is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, sec 3 does not apply. Andy On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello, > > My view is that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might > be acceptable, but it is wrong, because: > > 1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC > 6243 ; Section 3 > ." (See line > 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are > inappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, > capabilities) > 2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to *report* de= fault > data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and UC5 is about repor= ting. > In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the instance-data-set is usually prepared by h= uman > SW developers which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether th= is is > about reporting, replying, or just sending the data. > > In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who create= s > the instance-data and why. There are so many potential use-cases, that th= ey > may have very different processes creating and using the data. The data = is > just present or absent. The wording in With-default RFC is too specific: > =E2=80=9Cdata is reported ...=E2=80=9D. > > 1. report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80= =9D which is > incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can have an attribute in JSON, = but > here specifically an XML attribute is mentioned. > 2. Rob, you stated that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms SHALL, > SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the good > solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is covered b= y the > instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be adhered to. Th= e > ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like =E2=80=9Cis reporte= d=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot > reported=E2=80=9D. > > > > That said, if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I ca= n > accept the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward. > I am willing to have a conference, would you arrange it? > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 13., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > I=E2=80=99m wondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting to= get to > consensus on this issue (which I believe is important)? > > > > The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that the data set > is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that default values are > removed from the data set. Hence, I think that those two choices combine > to make it impossible for a consumer of an instance data file to know > whether a data node has been excluded because it contained the default > value vs it has been excluded because it not part of the data set. > > > > However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the perspective tha= t > if these instance data files represent configuration then understanding h= ow > RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important. To that end, I > quite like Andy=E2=80=99s suggestion of directly reusing the > ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the definitions > are entirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to address my > concern. > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > } > > Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked description, or assigne= d > default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that this could be mad= e > to work for you? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 September 2021 18:03 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > See below as BALAZS4 > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS3. > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. > > IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change > approach. > > BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2= =80=9D > =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by t= he server=E2=80=9D > > These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I > would like to stick with including text here. > > > > > > > > I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf > "with-defaults-mode" typedef > > cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already know > how to deal > > with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. > > > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > } > > > > I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. > > Andy > > BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I > avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: > > =C2=B7 It references RFC 6243 ; Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, ca= pabilities) > > =C2=B7 The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to rep= ort default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. > > =C2=B7 report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribu= te=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding > > =C2=B7 I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. > > Is this acceptable? > > > > > > > > The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3. > > It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all. > > The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes. > > > > IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users. > > includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't. > > It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different > things. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 > > } > > } > > description > > "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, > > thus any data node MAY be absent. > > > > Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a > > full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set > > includes data nodes that have a default defined and > > where the actual value is the same as the default value. > > > > Data nodes that have no default values should always > > be included. > > Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual > > value is not equal to the schema defined default > > should always be included."; > > > > > > AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? > > Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default > > are not relevant to this object. > > BALAZS3: OK > > > > reference > > "RFC 6243 : Wit= h-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; > > } > > > > The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data > set is to include > > the "default" attribute in each default node. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 > > This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current > solution). > > BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. > > Here is the current proposed text: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values, if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set."; > > } > > enum report-all-tagged { > > value 2; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set. > > Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL > > contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is equal to the schema default > > value SHALL NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 4; > > description > > "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the > > schema default value SHALL NOT be included. > > However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF > > client or other management application by the way > > of an explicit management operation, the data node > > SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by > > the instance-data-set."; > > } > > } > > description > > "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default > > data. This leaf indicates whether default data is > > included. > > > > As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data > > sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or > > leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set > > does not intend to include the data node independent > > of default handling."; > > reference > > "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF > > RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; > > } > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --0000000000009a514705cbf7a26a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I do not have time= for a conference on this leaf.
You think this cut-and-paste is g= ood engineering and not confusing to users.
I disagree.

IMO it is less confusing to use the correct typedef and dec= lare in your leaf description-stmt
that the inclusion of defaults= is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, sec 3 does not apply.

Andy


On Tue, Sep 14, 2021= at 8:24 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello,

My view is = that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might be acceptable= , but it is wrong, because:

  1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type= does reference "RFC 6243; Section 3." (See l= ine 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are i= nappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, capabilit= ies)
  2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Pos= sible modes to report default data." From the 8 listed u= se-cases only two UC4 and UC5 is about reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 t= he instance-data-set is usually prepared by human SW developers which is no= t reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether this is about reporting, replyin= g, or just sending the data.

In the instance-data draft we always avoided as= sumptions about who creates the instance-data and why. There are so many po= tential use-cases, that they may have very different processes creating and= using the data.=C2=A0 The data is just present or absent. The wording in W= ith-default RFC is too specific: =E2=80=9Cdata is reported ...=E2=80=9D.=

  1. re= port-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which = is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can have an attribute in JSON, bu= t here specifically an XML attribute is mentioned.
  2. = Rob, you stated =C2=A0that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms SHALL, SHA= LL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the good solution).= So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is covered by the instance-= data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be adhered to. The ncwd:with-de= faults-mode datatype uses wording like =E2=80=9Cis reported=E2=80=9D, =E2= =80=9Cnot reported=E2=80=9D.

= =C2=A0

That said, if this is the co= st of getting this document to the IESG, I can accept the data-type. Please= decide, so we can move forward.
I am willing to have a conference, woul= d you arrange it?

Regards Balazs=

=C2=A0

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 13.= , h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs= Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf<= u>

=C2=A0

Hi Andy, Balazs,=

=C2=A0=

I=E2=80=99m wondering wheth= er it might be helpful to arrange a meeting to get to consensus on this iss= ue (which I believe is important)?

=C2=A0

The concern that I raised in my original AD rev= iew was that the data set is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION = that default values are removed from the data set.=C2=A0 Hence, I think tha= t those two choices combine to make it impossible for a consumer of an inst= ance data file to know whether a data node has been excluded because it con= tained the default value vs it has been excluded because it not part of the= data set.

=C2=A0

However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the perspective t= hat if these instance data files represent configuration then understanding= how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important.=C2=A0 To that en= d, =C2=A0I quite like Andy=E2=80=99s suggestion of directly reusing the ncw= d:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the definitions are e= ntirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to address my concern.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf in= cludes-defaults {

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB">Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked descr= iption, or assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that= this could be made to work for you?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> Sent: 10 September 2021 18:03
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &l= t;balazs.l= engyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; = NetMod WG <netmod@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-= defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:=

See below as BALAZS4

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=
Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57
To: Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (r= wilton) <rwilton@= cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-in= stance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &l= t;balazs.l= engyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS3.<= /u>

=C2=A0

From: A= ndy Bierman <and= y@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29<= br>To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [= netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi,=

=C2=A0

Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent wi= th RFC 6243, section 3.

= IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change approach= .

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes = set by the server=E2=80=9D

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">These parts are not relevant for many o= f the instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with including text= here.

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

I guess I do not understand wh= y the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf "with-defaults-mode&qu= ot; typedef

cannot be us= ed. IMO this is bad practice.=C2=A0 Applications that already know how to d= eal

with defaults accord= ing to RFC 6243 should be supported.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;<= u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}=

=C2=A0

I do not see any text in this typedef that is serv= er-specific.

Andy=

BAL= AZS4: =C2=A0While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I a= voided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 It references RFC 6243; Section 3 which is full of inappr=
opriate references (server, data retrieval, capabilities)<=
/u>
=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Th=
e typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report default d=
ata." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading default =
configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported.=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 repor=
t-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which is =
incorrect if we use JSON encoding
=
=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 I prefer to use the 2119 t=
erm SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions.
Is this acceptable?<= u>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The data type I suggested does not have= any references to section 3.

It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY te= xt at all.

The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes.=

=C2=A0

IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users.<= /span>

includes-d= efaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't.

=

It uses the exact sa= me enums as with-defaults, but they mean different things.

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

Andy

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo= rder-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm= 5pt 4.8pt">
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumerat=
ion {
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOUL=
D be included independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
<= pre style=3D"break-before:page">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0"Data nodes that have a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 the actual value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";= 
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
<=
span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default d=
efined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT b=
e
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCON=
F client or other management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit =
management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";<=
u>
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "As instance-data-sets MAY contai=
n incomplete data sets,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 thus any data node MAY be absent.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 full data set, this lea=
f specifies whether the data set
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes data nodes that have a default defined and<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value =
is the same as the default value.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Data nodes that have no default values should always
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be included.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have a default valu=
e, but the actual
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
value is not equal to the schema defined default
= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should always be included.";<=
/u>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
AB: The last paragraph should be re=
moved or changed. Why are these nodes special?
Nodes that are a= ctually present and do not contain the YANG default
are not rel=
evant to this object.
BALAZS3: OK
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 reference
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 62=
43: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/span>

=C2=A0

The best way to indicate a repre= sentation of a YANG default in the data set is to include

=

the "default" attribute in each= default node.=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc624= 3#section-6

This act= ually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current solution).=

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-default= s leaf.

Here is the current proposed text:

--------------= ----------------------------------------------

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values, if the data node <= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is = covered by the instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= enum report-all-tagged=C2=A0 {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included= independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values if the data node <= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0is covered by the instance-data-set.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Any nodes c= onsidered to be default data SHALL

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0contain a 'default'= attribute set to 'true'";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0enum trim {

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<= /u>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= u>

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data = nodes that have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value = is equal to the schema default=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0value SHALL NOT be= included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {<= /u>

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 4;

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "D= ata nodes where the actual value is equal to the

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0schema= default value SHALL NOT be included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, if the ac= tual value was set by a NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0client or other manageme= nt application by the way

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of an explicit management oper= ation, the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SHALL be included, if the data no= de is covered by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the instance-data-set.";=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "An instance-data-set may c= ontain or exclude default

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0data. This leaf indicates whether default data is

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0included.=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As instan= ce-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. = A leaf or

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set <= u>

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0does not intend to= include the data node independent

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of default handling.";<= /u>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reference

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protoco= l";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

--------------------------= ----------------------------------

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:4= 1 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:=

Hello Andy,<= u>

In the -17 I removed the default value for= includes-defaults as you proposed.

=C2=A0

I am not sure I understand = the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does not use the concept o= f =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is th= e situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set.<= /p>

As this is not a live server request/reply situat= ion we do not want to specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to= specify the handling used for this specific instance data set.

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus= 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@er= icsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults l= eaf

=C2=A0

<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= Hello Rob,

I think this won=E2=80= =99t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we= state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data s=
ets.=E2=80=9D
Which is important for many use-cases.=
=C2=A0 This means you cannot say that a default value will or must be inclu=
ded, as they might be omitted because they are not part of the partial data=
 set.
In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves=
 that are missing because
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part of the partial =
data-set
-=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have the default =
value and one of the trim or explicit options is used<=
/pre>
If =
this becomes important the report-all options shall be used.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

=

I thought we already agreed there cannot = be a default or there is no way to

represent "no defaults added".

=

=C2=A0

Note that "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if basic-mod= e=3Dexplicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 Only report= -all-tagged will clearly identify defaults in this case.

<= /div>

=C2=A0

Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will b= e no defaults ever reported.

This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns

every= node (if with-defaults used or not).

=C2=A0

This is the rea=
son I used the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs<=
u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rob= Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf= =C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>= ;; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod= ] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2=A0 I woul= d still like to strength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E.g., RFC 6= 243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternat= ive descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically foc= ussed only on the default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that we could de= fine the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cex= plicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this = effectively what the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would propose chang= ing the descriptions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-= defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &q= uot;All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any defa= ult values.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= ;Data nodes that have a default defined and where

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual = value is the default value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.";

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that h= ave a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the defau= lt value SHOULD NOT be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value= was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 data node SHOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instanc= e data set includes all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that contain the= schema default.=E2=80=9D;

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New&q= uot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= "The instance data set excludes all data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that contain t= he schema default.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 }

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "The instance data set may include some data nodes

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that mat= ch the schema default and may exclude some

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes that match t= he schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 }

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 "This leaf provides an indication of how default data=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented within an ins= tance data set, modelled on

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 6243.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the instance data s= et represents.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 E.g.= , if the instance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults aligns to the me= aning of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defa= ult-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set represents operational = data from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to the definition of= that

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datastore i= n RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,

=

Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@er= icsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wi= lton (rwilton) <r= wilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults l= eaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;= =E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Your in-use-values is very spe= cific to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It i= s not useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting oper= ational datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the i= ncludes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (i= i) will not.

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From= : Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27= ., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel &= lt;balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

<= /div>

=C2=A0<= u>

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">So, t= he reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use = is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to retrieve nodes from &l= t;operational> always return the value

=C2=A0=C2=A0 i= n use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no value is returned f= or a given node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 this implies that the= node is not used by the device.

=C2=A0

It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational da= ta cannot differentiate between:

(i)=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= This value is not present because it matches t= he default value specified in the YANG module, and

=

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because = the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemo= n that would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps = it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).<= /span>

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cas= es, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default v= alue is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to co= ntain and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0<= /u>

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.= =C2=A0 Another way of articulating this would be:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2= =A0

leaf = in-use-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnl= y if set to true, the absence of a value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance = data for a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used= rather than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified = by any corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement s= pecified in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=C2=A0=

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-d= efault=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I= would think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the defau= lt =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0<= /p>

R= egards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <= ;andy@yumaworks.com= >
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwil= ton) <rwilton@cis= co.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@= ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file inc= lude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">On Fr= i, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean f= lag might be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering = out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solut= ion is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate = "default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present then it identifies the= basic-mode that was used to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or defa= ults were not added.

=C2=A0=

The "default" statement is a bug because there is = no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-mode= s are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Andy

=C2=A0

E.g., something along these lines:=

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default true;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 W= hen unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the = default value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default v= alue are not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0

Would this satisfy your concern?

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
S= ent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:<= /p>

=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Al=
l data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have=
 a default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actu=
al value is the default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 NOT be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 description
<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a defaul=
t defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value =
is the default value SHOULD NOT be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in=
cluded. However, if the actual value was set by
<= pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt">= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management application= 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;<=
/u>
=C2=A0

The draft= is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this<= /u>

= leaf is too server-centric to ignore.=

=C2=A0

Consider the possibili= ty that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" m= ay not be correct.

=C2=A0

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema = will also

know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 Th= e solution is incomplete anyway because

=

the = presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.<= /u>

The=C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to = identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be r= emoved, but at least add an enum called "unknown".<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Andy

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

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So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The language in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since this is how it's done in TR-181. > I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack of YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. I can only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range 0 to 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters. > Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those words. I apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently clear. > > Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like to understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in the information model was definitely intended to express the acceptability of using this approach from a Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's how it would be done in TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I think my preference would be to use this approach, since it would provide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG models. If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to indicate a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in the IETF YANG data model. Consistency across data models is a value, in particular for systems that may have to support multiple. While the conversion of different notations no hard, its one more thing to potentially get wrong. If you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the YANG idiom would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit integer and a special (string) value, which might even be of type empty. One of the reasons to have no common approach to these kind of questions is to provide the flexibility needed to do the right thing in different contexts. Of course, you may want to stay consistent in a data model or a collection of related data model. I skimmed RFC 8407 and it seems we do not have text discussion this specific situation. Perhaps we should have text, perhaps I have overlooked it. ;-) I think there are different patterns to choose from to handle this situation with their various pros and cons. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Sep 14 10:18:59 2021 Return-Path: <0100017be55186f0-8d5c98a6-5700-4a49-8009-9b6f2d818dc1-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53F93A263F for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yJspEQl5fo4d for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-31.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-31.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74F8C3A263B for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:18:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1631639931; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=JVE0gHAqsdn+4eNaTckbiULNELAtG0O0hWNZiAtpCA4=; b=AeBzeL/U9+1OkXpWj/1KP4wJbb53mZPSLj5lIObiSfwoe4Jc2gWK8ih1MmuxaR07 9F9eeipXD31Cmpx0NzxtNAv/AJBFsZMk17tz6iF2acIB+Ntt3m/loPeiV7OLUxhhbSg Fk9nF3PnfcZSelLEEng4bYa/5Y0Sa+r2fNB+kZGA= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:18:51 +0000 Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <0100017be55186f0-8d5c98a6-5700-4a49-8009-9b6f2d818dc1-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.09.14-54.240.8.31 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:18:57 -0000 >> Sorry, I was on PTO for the meeting where this was discussed. I = don't think that it is great that the character needs to be encoded in a = URL.=20 How often are YANG module names in URLs? A website for downloading modules would reference modules by URL but, as = Joe said, the encoding would be transparent to the end-user (i.e., the = downloaded filename would NOT have the encoded character in the name). K. // contrib From nobody Tue Sep 14 10:38:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958C13A26C4; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EO1_v4Wy_H7l; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4BBA3A26C5; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id w19so8627539pfn.12; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=xWzc/MOMP2Tq1HhTFxSn9rusQWkJ6OQQ6oUl+zfsn0c=; b=SrSHI9OvHcJ2Piw4zESePWQxkhoEGCcFS8Z8mWr/JN494PqgIbNWxWJ8N7xVukc9Ii ZQaWoZpwoZeWVzs0IYfbb2OMRPAkW5hivRvPU5Upq5ENbL0VPP178dyeDy/PWW/eyPl1 R1oLzUDZl2wXAjYZmjd31oH8MhG/mYTA1IEUMGqVO/4l7AH/0SCtQ/SNoXmGAYzREh2P biZa39+PD5MPuU5ZJJ8+VCsKm8jzMPxV65Mwy/gnAg9Pp0cyDmk5syoSntQc41ulfAd9 kXIc+TQWRA42SwOsHqDGg/1uiAcMh1hVuX9Fj7GhFPNkrkdpmppgqdKfvzUmk3s+g5IT Hqzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=xWzc/MOMP2Tq1HhTFxSn9rusQWkJ6OQQ6oUl+zfsn0c=; b=xleVrXBBbNNoua9uRPu+bgsYunKBQnUM2Wf5IKeicEHz37nqzhS5zcvxzwc9ADuSQl RtpvOPckEtdn23GYXer4srsMUNGUMfX1hRJCQ6kzqkjNHX0FKTsw0+ak9FliaGhMB3Jv jfQSdfHmla1WPvcvNwcmn0SZJXbw9E5sax8kk5YmeEf74VzlzSAyhgTDGYPHKwZKSWVV 5DCD+o6gwuJ077hbhLWg1FT/aRMz29am2RfqaWqyljE7qxM7YE8lDYjNNrxbbQSe1Y6G JTH9NNn2/gZ1X1LsLpV+n9TNYOyv5vuA9ArW7Khemxo0/jTzO4keAC5EnFVXJuOGusii rb9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vn6BJBxxssJl+X+XYoxuFQ098HeimuNKO/3tpnzOI+BYynTKx edNo2IOZJh68lOgXGqk7LmY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyZGGz8JMJKzB0HGkvwn5o464FnJFPee0iqkwTfTkfDcSILggVdCmAyC47MZlytSujbWREPZg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:cf0c:: with SMTP id j12mr16660325pgg.411.1631641056968; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.133] (c-69-181-169-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [69.181.169.15]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b1sm2150897pjl.4.2021.09.14.10.37.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: <5F6A0BF9-06F9-41E9-8B9A-701608875934@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02468BF9-3886-4684-AC7F-09CBD6556AC0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:37:35 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , tom petch , "netmod@ietf.org" , Babel at IETF To: Juergen Schoenwaelder References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:37:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_02468BF9-3886-4684-AC7F-09CBD6556AC0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Juergen, > On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:17 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 01:51:36PM +0000, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >=20 >> As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 = meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The = language in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, = since this is how it's done in TR-181. >> I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have = a preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable = lack of YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this = in YANG. I can only insist that the model be able to express a value in = the range 0 to 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters.=20 >> Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have = expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those = words. I apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently = clear.=20 >>=20 >> Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like = to understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in = the information model was definitely intended to express the = acceptability of using this approach from a Babel WG perspective = (because I knew that's how it would be done in TR-181). Would this be = unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I think my preference would = be to use this approach, since it would provide additional consistency = between the TR-181 and YANG models. >=20 > If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to indicate > a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in the > IETF YANG data model. Consistency across data models is a value, in > particular for systems that may have to support multiple. While the > conversion of different notations no hard, its one more thing to > potentially get wrong. >=20 > If you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the YANG idiom > would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit integer and a special > (string) value, which might even be of type empty. I hear two suggestions on what the =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D construct = should be in the union statement. Use =E2=80=98empty=E2=80=99 as you = suggest, or use =E2=80=98boolean=E2=80=99. Are there any pros/cons for = either of the approaches? >=20 > One of the reasons to have no common approach to these kind of > questions is to provide the flexibility needed to do the right thing > in different contexts. Of course, you may want to stay consistent in a > data model or a collection of related data model. >=20 > I skimmed RFC 8407 and it seems we do not have text discussion this > specific situation. Perhaps we should have text, perhaps I have > overlooked it. ;-) I think there are different patterns to choose from > to handle this situation with their various pros and cons. >=20 > /js >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_02468BF9-3886-4684-AC7F-09CBD6556AC0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Juergen,

On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:17 AM, J=C3=BCrgen = Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On = Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 01:51:36PM +0000, STARK, BARBARA H wrote:

As I = mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 meaning NULL. So = I certainly have no issue with that approach. The language in RFC9046 = was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since this is how = it's done in TR-181.
I guess I am a bit surprised to learn = that YANG doesn't seem to have a preferred way to handle this. = Unfortunately, given my considerable lack of YANG expertise, I can't = recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. I can only insist that = the model be able to express a value in the range 0 to 2^16 and NULL = value for these parameters.
Independent of the fact that = the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have expressed this perfectly = clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those words. I apologize that = the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently clear.

Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, = I'd like to understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The = language in the information model was definitely intended to express the = acceptability of using this approach from a Babel WG perspective = (because I knew that's how it would be done in TR-181). Would this be = unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I think my preference would = be to use this approach, since it would provide additional consistency = between the TR-181 and YANG models.

If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to = indicate
a special case, then this may be a strong reason = to do the same in the
IETF YANG data model. Consistency = across data models is a value, in
particular for systems = that may have to support multiple. While the
conversion of = different notations no hard, its one more thing to
potentially get wrong.

If you = were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the YANG idiom
would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit integer and a = special
(string) value, which might even be of type = empty.

I = hear two suggestions on what the =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D construct = should be in the union statement. Use =E2=80=98empty=E2=80=99 as you = suggest, or use =E2=80=98boolean=E2=80=99. Are there any pros/cons for = either of the approaches?


One of the reasons to have no common approach to these kind = of
questions is to provide the flexibility needed to do = the right thing
in different contexts. Of course, you may = want to stay consistent in a
data model or a collection of = related data model.

I skimmed RFC 8407 and = it seems we do not have text discussion this
specific = situation. Perhaps we should have text, perhaps I have
overlooked it. ;-) I think there are different patterns to = choose from
to handle this situation with their various = pros and cons.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com





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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c42ca49a-6b83-47bf-4145-08d977a716fe X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 17:42:57.7496 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fMX60o0u3WO8+684ggQcbO8QhmaZ4v8uSqSWYehkQ1S+Uzanj9yi9vi8pVUm9j1eqYhU7mc4wHfSBfFW19wyQQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR1101MB2329 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.19, xbe-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:43:26 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Clarke (jclarke) > Sent: 14 September 2021 17:57 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Revision-labels within filenames >=20 > On 9/14/21 12:01, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > > > Sorry, I was on PTO for the meeting where this was discussed. I don't = think > that it is great that the character needs to be encoded in a URL. It wou= ld > seem to make references to YANG files in YANG packages a lot more > awkward to read/write. >=20 > The writing here will likely still be programmatically driven, but I get = the > reading argument. While client automation won't care, a user reading > %233.2.3 does not as easily grok that as #3.2.3. That said, I wouldn't u= se the > URL as a means to get the revision-label. I'd use the revision leaf in t= he > package for a given module. I wasn't thinking of a URL to get the revision-label, I was more thinking o= f a URL to identify the source YANG file for a particular revision. E.g., in the YANG packages examples: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages#appen= dix-A Ideally, I would like the URLs pointing the source YANG files to be able to= do so without requiring any encoding of the '@' or '#' symbol. E.g., looking at some of the examples (which seem to have been converted so= mewhere), and hence the @ symbol has been converted to %40, which makes the= date look like 40k years into the future. "location": [ "https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/\ iana-crypt-hash%402014-08-06.yang" ], If this location can be something like https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-crypt= -hash@2014-08-06.yang or https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-crypt-hash@2.3.1.ya= ng then I think that it would make these URLs more readable. >=20 > > > > Perhaps reusing '@' is pragmatically the best choice. We already have = the > constraint that a revision label cannot match the format of a revision-da= te > anyway. > > > > Or, alternatively, if we really want to differentiate, then could '@@' = work? >=20 > @@ was discussed, but would likely still trip up current tools that expec= t '@' > followed by a revision date. But if we're good with disrupting this, I'd= prefer > we overload the single '@'. I'm pretty sure that the existing tools will need to be updated regardless = to understand the new version labels. If the tool can't cope then a script= needs to be used to strip the revision labels from the files, or rename th= em to their equivalent revision dates. Thanks, Rob >=20 > Joe >=20 > > > > Rob > > // As an author/contributor. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: netmod On Behalf Of Joe Clarke > >> (jclarke) > >> Sent: 14 September 2021 15:56 > >> To: netmod@ietf.org > >> Subject: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames > >> > >> Carsten raised a point at the mic at IETF111 that the chosen > >> character '#' to separate the module name and module revision-label > >> in filenames is problematic. Currently, the YANG module versioning > >> draft says that if you want to use revision-label within the > >> filename, you use MODULE_NAME#REVISION_LABEL (e.g., > >> my-module#3.2.3.yang). The reason for a new character is not to > >> confuse existing tools that expect a revision- date to follow '@'. > >> > >> Carsten mentioned that '#' causes problem with shells and within URLs. > >> While the position of the '#' in the name does not actually trigger > >> issues with shells (it would if the filename began with a '#'), it > >> does indeed cause issues in URLs if it's not encoded. For example, > >> https://example.com/my- module#3.2.3.yang will result in a 404 since > >> a file "my-module" does not exist. Jan also pointed out that '#' > >> will cause issues in Makefiles, causing developers to have to escape t= hem. > >> > >> On the last meeting, the authors and contributors spent some time > >> running down other characters options, but all have their issues and > >> require escaping or encoding. The consensus on that call was that > >> the # > >> --> %23 URL encoding won't be as burdensome as initially thought. > >> Platforms like GitHub (or its ilk) -- which are popular for hosting > >> modules -- will do this encoding automatically and downloading the > >> module will produce a filename with the un-encoded '#'. > >> Additionally, yang-library location will have the encoded version of > >> the URL (likely generated by tooling), which clients then download and > typically get the un-encoded '#'. > >> > >> Ultimately, we do not foresee filesystems cluttered with "%23" in > >> filenames nor do we expect a great deal of manual typing of "%23". > >> Yes, the '#' will cause some additional developer work for use in > >> Makefiles, but the authors feel this is acceptable given the overall i= mpact > of choosing another character. > >> > >> More details on this, including our run-down of other characters can > >> be found in GitHub Issue #104 (https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver- > >> dt/issues/104). > >> > >> Joe on behalf of the YANG versioning authors and contributors > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> netmod mailing list > >> netmod@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Tue Sep 14 10:44:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8937C3A26F3 for ; 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Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:43:52 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Kent Watsen , "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames Thread-Index: AQHXqXiY/tAhgjp89U2CmU+lMB5zuqujxjuAgAAGv1A= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0100017be55186f0-8d5c98a6-5700-4a49-8009-9b6f2d818dc1-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017be55186f0-8d5c98a6-5700-4a49-8009-9b6f2d818dc1-000000@email.amazonses.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: watsen.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;watsen.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 257ec51a-15c9-468d-de0f-08d977a737ca x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR11MB2636: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 257ec51a-15c9-468d-de0f-08d977a737ca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 17:43:52.7239 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: c8uR8NbEpGxbdkVnSBZsgiY0mPDqkpJNjjvLcTbVxlJSUFpiAPIhkqu0U1GTwwdZNRVBa0YerZJcv0jZrx6kwA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB2636 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.19, xbe-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:44:04 -0000 Hi Kent, It was the YANG package definitions that I had in mind. More details in th= e response that I have just sent back to Joe. Regards, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Kent Watsen > Sent: 14 September 2021 18:19 > To: Joe Clarke (jclarke) > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> Sorry, I was on PTO for the meeting where this was discussed. I don't > think that it is great that the character needs to be encoded in a URL. >=20 > How often are YANG module names in URLs? >=20 > A website for downloading modules would reference modules by URL but, as > Joe said, the encoding would be transparent to the end-user (i.e., the > downloaded filename would NOT have the encoded character in the name). >=20 > K. // contrib >=20 From nobody Tue Sep 14 10:57:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208073A2752; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, 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[netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:36:23 -0000 On 14. Sep 2021, at 19:17, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to indicate > a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in the > IETF YANG data model. Any data model based on FORTRAN certainly will do. Most other data modeling languages by now should have = nullable/optional/Maybe types. Going from the actual data type, uint16, to int32, just to accommodate = the =E2=80=9Cnot present=E2=80=9D case, strikes me as a mistake. (Which doesn=E2=80=99t mean that you may not want to do this in an = implementation, after having validated the input data.) 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If BBF already defined to use -1, so be it. The alternative is to not instantiate the leaf if there is no value and to accept that a client can't tell the difference between 'there is no value' and 'the value has been suppressed by authorization'. /js PS: You can define a maybe-uint16 type as a union in YANG but yes there is no syntactic sugar to generalize this. On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 08:36:12PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 14. Sep 2021, at 19:17, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > > > > If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to indicate > > a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in the > > IETF YANG data model. > > Any data model based on FORTRAN certainly will do. > Most other data modeling languages by now should have nullable/optional/Maybe types. > > Going from the actual data type, uint16, to int32, just to accommodate the “not present” case, strikes me as a mistake. > (Which doesn’t mean that you may not want to do this in an implementation, after having validated the input data.) > > Grüße, Carsten > -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Sep 14 12:31:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988043A2A5C; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HGpKvXUPIyKJ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E6663A2A35; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id w8so205564pgf.5; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=2H9iVeYorso48oz1oRDG7DLZo1rgUqFS74sha0oGxxU=; b=QFbEHzrm9lBXApDHK/XimTm4JTUn676MZWw4DC3McrE8GrAjyVNpxHCSf4nr7QpEtF X76ntyZPYlguDgA0FSLUsihW9izGmVUFztxzeGbJQY1aN1XNeSv1o0sTrf2gNu97CozH vc3lQn/FnyVt66WynEFLfDYK8XYn5zfQEpV1wtBVQcsIekMFfBOwmssR2j6CgARrXLa0 m75wB7W8c/ktiKMUs8bHzCMS4S1RFi/i+hd/R5lTPRNTQUO9Xr7iaZtRbscSB4zbYTs/ LP6XNpKNHSLENjs0BJ4UeGndReZ3JC5Qf030N273F2AkzG8isPANtrA4sY3IslegjYE3 b5wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=2H9iVeYorso48oz1oRDG7DLZo1rgUqFS74sha0oGxxU=; b=V9h7CxOZ5dhKCbedefoUgHrU86O7qpYi6qkJZqQeGYS+QmUjUTkmDeIqL5sqZ45OSH DaaJMs8Vo0BNrJW4D5373qKcpWXbtA3upE9Iem5LnrsYukHD2AhmgL4Xj+Zb0DzyS72V u3yvHkRikiphVc5ePbQ8DQsAhXndtlRUH7aIdXzH0suhH2jDcEuEINXSiOQV4xWfG33J uT/kTg42KX4enras2gTjRTzm7YT4wkhHfNvUA+MiWqZnNzyreHwSfoMUF7PCa7jg2JnI ARg2uTsSIL67KvA50/uLF7zdQrwavWIVHD9VIPqZ8LZtX85QQtlTSl/YfND2AyYHVwlJ adFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532zyhXpdQTDnvC+Q8F1q33SHziFJAXdd1As4NFLLwhdZyJNMof5 XgJp9Hciin/XSjIMqOjqcLg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYOAYV9XNnTvxt4ZpeSCV5LB+EN9nB1Ey53Q5PYyNLo1fvQ3L/9oKBLE8qkn2/oqOrRz3kmg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e413:: with SMTP id a19mr16895596pgi.408.1631647862322; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.133] (c-69-181-169-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [69.181.169.15]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e2sm11272886pfn.141.2021.09.14.12.31.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: <3CCE870C-9D69-450F-A795-84B791DDAA8E@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_46357380-FC98-4E5C-89E1-7D50FDD1BB2F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:31:00 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20210914.201758.1827806402442755510.id@4668.se> Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Babel at IETF , "STARK, BARBARA H" , netmod@ietf.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= References: <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5F6A0BF9-06F9-41E9-8B9A-701608875934@gmail.com> <20210914.201758.1827806402442755510.id@4668.se> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:31:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_46357380-FC98-4E5C-89E1-7D50FDD1BB2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Martin, > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund = wrote: >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > wrote: >> Hi Juergen, >>=20 >>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:17 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 01:51:36PM +0000, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >>>=20 >>>> As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 = meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The = language in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, = since this is how it's done in TR-181. >>>> I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to = have a preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my = considerable lack of YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way = to model this in YANG. I can only insist that the model be able to = express a value in the range 0 to 2^16 and NULL value for these = parameters.=20 >>>> Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to = have expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of = those words. I apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be = sufficiently clear.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like = to understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in = the information model was definitely intended to express the = acceptability of using this approach from a Babel WG perspective = (because I knew that's how it would be done in TR-181). Would this be = unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I think my preference would = be to use this approach, since it would provide additional consistency = between the TR-181 and YANG models. >>>=20 >>> If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to = indicate >>> a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in = the >>> IETF YANG data model. Consistency across data models is a value, in >>> particular for systems that may have to support multiple. While the >>> conversion of different notations no hard, its one more thing to >>> potentially get wrong. >>>=20 >>> If you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the YANG = idiom >>> would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit integer and a special >>> (string) value, which might even be of type empty. >>=20 >> I hear two suggestions on what the =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D construct = should be in the union statement. Use =E2=80=98empty=E2=80=99 as you = suggest, or use =E2=80=98boolean=E2=80=99. Are there any pros/cons for = either of the approaches? >=20 > 'boolean' doesn't seem right, since that would mean that you could see > the values 'true' | 'false' | . >=20 > If you want a union I suggest a union with one enum, perhaps: >=20 > type union { > type enumeration { > enum null; > } > type uint16; > } >=20 > But J=C3=BCrgens point about using a solution that other data models = use > makes sense. That would mean something like this: type union { type empty; type uint16; } Right? >=20 > Yet another alternative could be to not instantiate this leaf when the > value in the information model is null. I have never been very clear on what happens when the leaf goes from a = defined value to null. In other words, how do you =E2=80=9Cun-instantiate=E2= =80=9D a leaf? Do you delete it? Cheers. >=20 >=20 >=20 > /martin >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> One of the reasons to have no common approach to these kind of >>> questions is to provide the flexibility needed to do the right thing >>> in different contexts. Of course, you may want to stay consistent in = a >>> data model or a collection of related data model. >>>=20 >>> I skimmed RFC 8407 and it seems we do not have text discussion this >>> specific situation. Perhaps we should have text, perhaps I have >>> overlooked it. ;-) I think there are different patterns to choose = from >>> to handle this situation with their various pros and cons. >>>=20 >>> /js >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | = Germany >>> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >>=20 >> Mahesh Jethanandani >> mjethanandani@gmail.com Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_46357380-FC98-4E5C-89E1-7D50FDD1BB2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Martin,

On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin = Bj=C3=B6rklund <mbj+ietf@4668.se> wrote:

Mahesh Jethanandani = <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Juergen,

On Sep 14, 2021, at = 10:17 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 01:51:36PM +0000, = STARK, BARBARA H wrote:

As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with = range  -1:65535 = with -1 meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. = The language in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was = allowed, since this is how it's done in TR-181.
I guess I = am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a preferred = way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack of YANG = expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. I = can only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range 0 = to 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters. 
Independent = of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have expressed this = perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those words. I = apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently = clear. 

Since you do mention the possibility of using = -1 for NULL, I'd like to understand who might find this approach = unacceptable? The language in the information model was definitely = intended to express the acceptability of using this approach from a = Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's how it would be done in = TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I = think my preference would be to use this approach, since it would = provide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG models.

If other data models use an = extended integer range and -1 to indicate
a special case, = then this may be a strong reason to do the same in the
IETF = YANG data model. Consistency across data models is a value, in
particular for systems that may have to support multiple. = While the
conversion of different notations no hard, its = one more thing to
potentially get wrong.

If you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the = YANG idiom
would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit = integer and a special
(string) value, which might even be = of type empty.

I hear two = suggestions on what the =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D construct should be in = the union statement. Use =E2=80=98empty=E2=80=99 as you suggest, or use = =E2=80=98boolean=E2=80=99. Are there any pros/cons for either of the = approaches?

'boolean' doesn't seem right, since that would mean that you = could see
the values = 'true' | 'false' | <uint16>.

If you want a union I suggest a union with one enum, = perhaps:

 type = union {
   type enumeration {
     enum= null;
   }
   type uint16;
 }

But J=C3=BCrgens point about using a solution that other data = models use
makes = sense.

That = would mean something like this:

type = union {
  type empty;
  type = uint16;
}

Right?


Yet another alternative could be to not instantiate this leaf = when the
value in the = information model is null.

I have never been very clear on what happens when the = leaf goes from a defined value to null. In other words, how do you = =E2=80=9Cun-instantiate=E2=80=9D a leaf? Do you delete it?

Cheers.




/martin







One of the reasons to have no = common approach to these kind of
questions is to provide = the flexibility needed to do the right thing
in different = contexts. Of course, you may want to stay consistent in a
data model or a collection of related data model.

I skimmed RFC 8407 and it seems we do not have = text discussion this
specific situation. Perhaps we should = have text, perhaps I have
overlooked it. ;-) I think there = are different patterns to choose from
to handle this = situation with their various pros and cons.

/js

-- 
Juergen = Schoenwaelder =           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com





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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0b39f4ab-739f-4588-edcd-08d977b736d9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 19:38:23.0387 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: IbXSFULrwgPhRRyIgtU+eVjCghhFXio0NUv7CNmE/yTJGXYzHxQCkZMcrD37JPt37YTSl+LlAQ/gooepZNAjRA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR1101MB2131 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.20, xbe-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:38:32 -0000 > I wasn't thinking of a URL to get the revision-label, I was more thinking= of a URL to identify the source YANG file for a particular revision.=0A= >=0A= > E.g., in the YANG packages examples:=0A= >=0A= > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages#app= endix-A=0A= >=0A= > Ideally, I would like the URLs pointing the source YANG files to be able = to do so without requiring any encoding of the '@' or '#' symbol.=0A= =0A= Wouldn't you think these locations would be generated via tooling (i.e.,=0A= consumable by automation or just having people click)? I would expect a=0A= human to look at the other package metadata to get the list of modules=0A= and their revisions.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > E.g., looking at some of the examples (which seem to have been converted = somewhere), and hence the @ symbol has been converted to %40, which makes t= he date look like 40k years into the future.=0A= >=0A= > "location": [ "https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/\=0A= > iana-crypt-hash%402014-08-06.yang" ],= =0A= >=0A= > If this location can be something like https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-cry= pt-hash@2014-08-06.yang or https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-crypt-hash@2.3.1.= yang then I think that it would make these URLs more readable.=0A= =0A= I do agree it's more readable, but I don't think it's critical to ensure.= =0A= =0A= Joe=0A= =0A= From nobody Tue Sep 14 15:51:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110F13A3495; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvLXbO7h4fba; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2013A34C1; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id w8so737136pgf.5; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:51:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Qi288jpIEntwg6YFTY3A6n48C/qAkL4edjtpSYTtoDI=; b=Jp50YlGXggx8juHGLQTRpt6B2CHIhh70WoQOe4wGJ//eTzNNOyaqHjDdWi+OLZ/4PP 4bzeqklt+nim4sX0BrGuHfFFsCOLO4sfaBB5d9QEDntnFJxXhC+1wC2+Plpmy+4vBOq9 gwivtdTtW27SOiZksXWse22UdHbXe2A777ANhH118wNWQjKtYilI6/bz3MbtXKX4F4WS 3JQql09cpcfAUAC93xKVZKKZehUy5r/woHb5WT6EucieaVoFj8TprvQiBMMATqoSUhW0 QtrXGXwBfYSKU6+eSCEgMgUMF0c8R+hVL3euKWufjg4K45Ks2J0PgeHqUxQI2Pe8xfOD Cjag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Qi288jpIEntwg6YFTY3A6n48C/qAkL4edjtpSYTtoDI=; b=OutHTp55xYpZD9kFmresjRm2hUdmRjHBMn/hK2SY6MWXo2BeCgiPrAg4YROkNDPFTD 31k/WFGnMcigXn1zEyPSnhjuR6GgkoI8thU0Wxa6GUW0ZADH5n2IRxa3CfzJp0ecJTFN mJVkzMMsr0CVJ7Ib0n95+Io12TtIfckKS3sSt0Hw1vhA6tx4fk446nb1M97eYuKm789e hpfiSRHf90yTHipRf04GLApTPH9yNisFOqZAV/19xQmbGY/9IXiPbA1EIMwspqg6DLy8 eOsAL8B0hblWWCpSh7Tf9mosPaNPBUs3xzUJFt0pKIbVqjWUPiqxfNSakbek0/Eli0Rv sXhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309XEqpjk1Ku3gKi0W9TaxNGIH/CvKtCECBXN1XORdOfoxm7DDq 586vcD61z2NPS9H089cEFmQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyW1FftbbAv1tKA8hN9PJqC4fpA8yP/dIjAWkaGsDKzZGUlZcv3/sBMDNe6b7cReHGNKVSE2w== X-Received: by 2002:a63:798c:: with SMTP id u134mr17725084pgc.479.1631659859928; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.133] (c-69-181-169-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [69.181.169.15]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a71sm11666550pfd.86.2021.09.14.15.50.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_83D425F1-5AEF-4183-8B9A-989202EE4F35" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:50:58 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CCE870C-9D69-450F-A795-84B791DDAA8E@gmail.com> Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Babel at IETF , "STARK, BARBARA H" , netmod@ietf.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= References: <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5F6A0BF9-06F9-41E9-8B9A-701608875934@gmail.com> <20210914.201758.1827806402442755510.id@4668.se> <3CCE870C-9D69-450F-A795-84B791DDAA8E@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 22:51:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_83D425F1-5AEF-4183-8B9A-989202EE4F35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 A related question. > On Sep 14, 2021, at 12:31 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote: >=20 > Hi Martin, >=20 >> On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund > wrote: >>=20 >> Mahesh Jethanandani > wrote: >>> Hi Juergen, >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:17 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 01:51:36PM +0000, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 = meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The = language in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, = since this is how it's done in TR-181. >>>>> I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to = have a preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my = considerable lack of YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way = to model this in YANG. I can only insist that the model be able to = express a value in the range 0 to 2^16 and NULL value for these = parameters.=20 >>>>> Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to = have expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of = those words. I apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be = sufficiently clear.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd = like to understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The = language in the information model was definitely intended to express the = acceptability of using this approach from a Babel WG perspective = (because I knew that's how it would be done in TR-181). Would this be = unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I think my preference would = be to use this approach, since it would provide additional consistency = between the TR-181 and YANG models. >>>>=20 >>>> If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to = indicate >>>> a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in = the >>>> IETF YANG data model. Consistency across data models is a value, in >>>> particular for systems that may have to support multiple. While the >>>> conversion of different notations no hard, its one more thing to >>>> potentially get wrong. >>>>=20 >>>> If you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the YANG = idiom >>>> would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit integer and a special >>>> (string) value, which might even be of type empty. >>>=20 >>> I hear two suggestions on what the =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D construct = should be in the union statement. Use =E2=80=98empty=E2=80=99 as you = suggest, or use =E2=80=98boolean=E2=80=99. Are there any pros/cons for = either of the approaches? >>=20 >> 'boolean' doesn't seem right, since that would mean that you could = see >> the values 'true' | 'false' | . >>=20 >> If you want a union I suggest a union with one enum, perhaps: >>=20 >> type union { >> type enumeration { >> enum null; >> } >> type uint16; >> } >>=20 >> But J=C3=BCrgens point about using a solution that other data models = use >> makes sense. >=20 > That would mean something like this: >=20 > type union { > type empty; > type uint16; > } >=20 > Right? RFC 7950 says that the empty type cannot have a default value. The model = had the value 0, which represented NULL as the default value for some of = the attributes. With the suggested change, is there a way in the union = for the empty type to be the default? If not, I will have to use Martin=E2=80=99s suggestion above of using a = null enumeration. Thanks. >=20 >>=20 >> Yet another alternative could be to not instantiate this leaf when = the >> value in the information model is null. >=20 > I have never been very clear on what happens when the leaf goes from a = defined value to null. In other words, how do you =E2=80=9Cun-instantiate=E2= =80=9D a leaf? Do you delete it? >=20 > Cheers. >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> /martin >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> One of the reasons to have no common approach to these kind of >>>> questions is to provide the flexibility needed to do the right = thing >>>> in different contexts. Of course, you may want to stay consistent = in a >>>> data model or a collection of related data model. >>>>=20 >>>> I skimmed RFC 8407 and it seems we do not have text discussion this >>>> specific situation. Perhaps we should have text, perhaps I have >>>> overlooked it. ;-) I think there are different patterns to choose = from >>>> to handle this situation with their various pros and cons. >>>>=20 >>>> /js >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >>>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | = Germany >>>> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > >>>=20 >>> Mahesh Jethanandani >>> mjethanandani@gmail.com > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_83D425F1-5AEF-4183-8B9A-989202EE4F35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 A = related question.

On Sep 14, 2021, at 12:31 PM, = Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,

On Sep = 14, 2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund <mbj+ietf@4668.se> = wrote:

Mahesh Jethanandani = <mjethanandani@gmail.com> = wrote:
Hi Juergen,

On Sep 14, 2021, at = 10:17 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 01:51:36PM +0000, = STARK, BARBARA H wrote:

As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with = range  -1:65535 = with -1 meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. = The language in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was = allowed, since this is how it's done in TR-181.
I guess I = am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a preferred = way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack of YANG = expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. I = can only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range 0 = to 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters. 
Independent = of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have expressed this = perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those words. I = apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently = clear. 

Since you do mention the possibility of using = -1 for NULL, I'd like to understand who might find this approach = unacceptable? The language in the information model was definitely = intended to express the acceptability of using this approach from a = Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's how it would be done in = TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with YANG expertise? I = think my preference would be to use this approach, since it would = provide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG models.

If other data models use an = extended integer range and -1 to indicate
a special case, = then this may be a strong reason to do the same in the
IETF = YANG data model. Consistency across data models is a value, in
particular for systems that may have to support multiple. = While the
conversion of different notations no hard, its = one more thing to
potentially get wrong.

If you were starting with a blank sheet of paper, then the = YANG idiom
would likely be to use a union of a 16-bit = integer and a special
(string) value, which might even be = of type empty.

I hear two = suggestions on what the =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D construct should be in = the union statement. Use =E2=80=98empty=E2=80=99 as you suggest, or use = =E2=80=98boolean=E2=80=99. Are there any pros/cons for either of the = approaches?

'boolean' doesn't seem right, since that = would mean that you could see
the = values 'true' | 'false' | <uint16>.

If you want a union I suggest a union with = one enum, perhaps:

 type union {
   type enumeration {
     enum = null;
   }
   type uint16;
 }

But J=C3=BCrgens point = about using a solution that other data models use
makes sense.

That = would mean something like this:

type = union {
  type empty;
  type uint16;
}

Right?
RFC 7950 says that the empty type cannot have a = default value. The model had the value 0, which represented NULL as the = default value for some of the attributes. With the suggested change, is = there a way in the union for the empty type to be the = default?

If not, I will have to use = Martin=E2=80=99s suggestion above of using a null = enumeration.

Thanks.



Yet another alternative = could be to not instantiate this leaf when the
value in the information model is = null.

I have never been very clear on what happens when the = leaf goes from a defined value to null. In other words, how do you = =E2=80=9Cun-instantiate=E2=80=9D a leaf? Do you delete it?

Cheers.




/martin







One of = the reasons to have no common approach to these kind of
questions is to provide the flexibility needed to do the = right thing
in different contexts. Of course, you may want = to stay consistent in a
data model or a collection of = related data model.

I skimmed RFC 8407 and = it seems we do not have text discussion this
specific = situation. Perhaps we should have text, perhaps I have
overlooked it. ;-) I think there are different patterns to = choose from
to handle this situation with their various = pros and cons.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder =           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com





= --Apple-Mail=_83D425F1-5AEF-4183-8B9A-989202EE4F35-- From nobody Tue Sep 14 16:01:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CAE3A353C; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UBtaekNt2D1V; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB51F3A353B; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H8Jk00N3Vz2xMf; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 01:01:12 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20210914191618.khcicr6o4x5sdki3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 01:01:11 +0200 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "STARK, BARBARA H" , Babel at IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <21E40C00-5C1B-4C54-9CDB-B99AC14B1F3E@tzi.org> References: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914191618.khcicr6o4x5sdki3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 23:01:21 -0000 On 14. Sep 2021, at 21:16, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > Carsten, >=20 > whatever you do, you will at the end need an extra bit. Sure. There are 65537 values, so you need at least 16.000022 bits :-) > If BBF already > defined to use -1, so be it. That works for me and is consistent with the information model in 9046. What I find not so great is the side effect of going from uint16 to = int32. I don=E2=80=99t see a big difference between Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / -1 and Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / empty I do not like Optional-uint16 =3D int32 > The alternative is to not instantiate the leaf if there is no value > and to accept that a client can't tell the difference between 'there > is no value' and 'the value has been suppressed by authorization'. Interesting. I wasn=E2=80=99t aware that this cannot be distinguished = in YANG. But an =E2=80=9Cempty=E2=80=9D would be present if it is chosen, no? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > /js >=20 > PS: You can define a maybe-uint16 type as a union in YANG but yes > there is no syntactic sugar to generalize this. >=20 > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 08:36:12PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 14. Sep 2021, at 19:17, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >>>=20 >>> If other data models use an extended integer range and -1 to = indicate >>> a special case, then this may be a strong reason to do the same in = the >>> IETF YANG data model. >>=20 >> Any data model based on FORTRAN certainly will do. >> Most other data modeling languages by now should have = nullable/optional/Maybe types. >>=20 >> Going from the actual data type, uint16, to int32, just to = accommodate the =E2=80=9Cnot present=E2=80=9D case, strikes me as a = mistake. >> (Which doesn=E2=80=99t mean that you may not want to do this in an = implementation, after having validated the input data.) >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Tue Sep 14 16:53:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123DF3A37B8; 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In YANG, you can of course use type int32 { range -1 | 0..65535 } and then its left to the encodings. Im XML/JSON, -1 is 16 bits and 65535 is 40 bits - and the name of the leaf is likely worse. I am too lazy to lookup what the CBOR encoding would do with the range... > > The alternative is to not instantiate the leaf if there is no value > > and to accept that a client can't tell the difference between 'there > > is no value' and 'the value has been suppressed by authorization'. > > Interesting. I wasn’t aware that this cannot be distinguished in YANG. I have to correct what I wrote. Its the leaf that is suppressed, not the value. In XML, if does not exist, the client gets nothing. If does exist (and it's value is empty in this example) and authorization rules say 'don't tell the client', the client gets nothing. A client not getting can't decide whether there is no because does not exist or authorization prevented access to . Authorization is not part of YANG. NACM started as an extension to NETCONF in order to control access to data. Initially the acronym NACM expanded to the 'NETCONF Access Control Model', RFC 6536. The revised NACM also works with RESTCONF (and likely other protocols) and hence the acronym now expands to the 'Network Configuration Access Control Model', RFC 8341. > But an “empty” would be present if it is chosen, no? You grant or restrict access to and it does not matter what type has or which value has (if it is a leaf) or whether is the root of a deeply nested tree (if it is a container). If a client has no permissions to read , then is silently omitted. Things are different if a client attempts to create/write/delete , in this case the client will get an explicit authorization failure error. For the details, see RFC 8341. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Sep 15 02:05:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14823A0784; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kopeho1UC0lj; 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Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:04:53 +0000 From: tom petch To: Carsten Bormann , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Babel at IETF , "STARK, BARBARA H" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 Thread-Index: AQHXqbx6XHQZrsqAPkC+IB0mU/gF2aukM+mAgACWyoM= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:04:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914191618.khcicr6o4x5sdki3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <21E40C00-5C1B-4C54-9CDB-B99AC14B1F3E@tzi.org> <20210914235319.is4x5nzuqdz26dv4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20210914235319.is4x5nzuqdz26dv4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 892b172e-0799-5889-a2d3-05eb62545ac4 authentication-results: tzi.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tzi.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 24c4141f-0d19-41d0-6491-08d97827e1b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 09:04:53.3315 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eE5P0dKAJUXm4KPlewW5ytP6dlaQG3IFdDkucPd/BOcZ+VojjiBnFvkI+xNqUR//bQUTQSvndNo4R35if9Hqeg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6771 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:05:03 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lde= r =0A= Sent: 15 September 2021 00:53=0A= =0A= On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 01:01:11AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:=0A= > > If BBF already=0A= > > defined to use -1, so be it.=0A= >=0A= > That works for me and is consistent with the information model in 9046.= =0A= >=0A= > What I find not so great is the side effect of going from uint16 to int32= .=0A= >=0A= > I don=92t see a big difference between=0A= > Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / -1=0A= > and=0A= > Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / empty=0A= >=0A= > I do not like=0A= >=0A= > Optional-uint16 =3D int32=0A= =0A= YANG leaves the bits business to the encodings. In YANG, you can of=0A= course use=0A= =0A= type int32 { range -1 | 0..65535 }=0A= =0A= and then its left to the encodings. Im XML/JSON, -1 is 16 bits and=0A= 65535 is 40 bits - and the name of the leaf is likely worse. I am too=0A= lazy to lookup what the CBOR encoding would do with the range...=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I am with Juergen here, and in a previous post, that if that is the way it = is done in BBF, then that is a compelling reason to do the same. =0A= =0A= Also, you can create a typedef for it, in one place in the model with a des= cription, both in the YANG and in the body of the I-D, and then use that ty= pe in all the places that it applies, which, for me, makes for a clearer, e= asier to understand model.=0A= =0A= I suggested boolean but agree that it is clumsy, not quite right (although = I have seen it somewhere). I suggested choice/case because that is what ot= hers do but as before, following BBF is a more compelling argument.=0A= =0A= It also addresses the problem of access control making it a challenge to kn= ow what is going on. The one leaf, the one object, you get it or you do no= t. Simple!=0A= =0A= And if you want to save bits, then YANG is not for you; the design aim was = text that anyone could read anywhere; if you want to save bits, then you ne= ed a compact binary representation:-)=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= (who is on European time)=0A= =0A= > > The alternative is to not =0A= =0A= instantiate the leaf if there is no value=0A= > > and to accept that a client can't tell the difference between 'there=0A= > > is no value' and 'the value has been suppressed by authorization'.=0A= >=0A= > Interesting. I wasn=92t aware that this cannot be distinguished in YANG.= =0A= =0A= I have to correct what I wrote. Its the leaf that is suppressed, not=0A= the value.=0A= =0A= In XML, if does not exist, the client gets nothing. If =0A= does exist (and it's value is empty in this example) and authorization=0A= rules say 'don't tell the client', the client gets nothing. A client=0A= not getting can't decide whether there is no because=0A= does not exist or authorization prevented access to .=0A= =0A= Authorization is not part of YANG. NACM started as an extension to=0A= NETCONF in order to control access to data. Initially the acronym NACM=0A= expanded to the 'NETCONF Access Control Model', RFC 6536. The revised=0A= NACM also works with RESTCONF (and likely other protocols) and hence=0A= the acronym now expands to the 'Network Configuration Access Control=0A= Model', RFC 8341.=0A= =0A= > But an =93empty=94 would be present if it is chosen, no?=0A= =0A= You grant or restrict access to and it does not matter what=0A= type has or which value has (if it is a leaf) or whether=0A= is the root of a deeply nested tree (if it is a container). If=0A= a client has no permissions to read , then is silently=0A= omitted.=0A= =0A= Things are different if a client attempts to create/write/delete=0A= , in this case the client will get an explicit authorization=0A= failure error. For the details, see RFC 8341.=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= --=0A= Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Wed Sep 15 02:08:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BA43A082F for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:08:27 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Revision-labels within filenames Thread-Index: AQHXqXiY/tAhgjp89U2CmU+lMB5zuqukzoZQ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:08:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 48c3393f-9a5f-437d-f2fe-08d978286169 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB0009: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: N6lRV86RTsaE+VhN/29pM4T4mP3zQfNqa2qJEGzSk9WqRNN/5N97l51B261hX7IVVfLhz9ykZoSKiZI3YhPuZ6CcPOOzUfSqGsKLPMy/WM0e/sYVbxN7sAxdjU+FZ4azMjh+61+0WhjA61DLsoma65b6Mro1P4O/3yohOp5L1XxYmRMjpFR6JRxHTDYF+3AkbslC5Mb/ACSiGLdS7jrZjp1793m72/YnCYenq/MTV7oT0sMNPaqKMaHlw8XloLjkNn0oye7n0I6NV7UJ0UtJkl31ydfIItrqWvfTDXvX2Dh7Vt7LUAA5dbecEjkCcsLd+eoOn1rVg7u7+csHamYmWVcEWJacHDF3vRGVerVLmntz4BItHgRqNPmZ8jUtVgKlqZ6eTB2FDcaW9edNkbpl+8nQc2q/D0DQyKZTh9TNvs0bDBiLaP8nW7XYfOflPw3NN8KHAKrxYStl3E0PDTMtmw3X0lCB/7zF632eH+IAqxOL2t7psdElBCSA2zAvI3H/M6WPcgGG0rDPxZg2CANVD6Y3qfSVlG/hoTXnaSeuJojsQ+jWuGlAfG6CPG1ahXDJbeDhzpaiMFtTmrUq6539YRq0pNNu4t0Pncka29ItFnDRgjjA5neX46UK2uU3sXLtJKKkbvFp0PcOp+AGeqrUsgGB8osvQMOWruO430sMTo1r/arNnzAjNH63reNpNV6M+hY5leJvXHVwOiNT4KUpeDt2ZT6KovKDvxVhyMHNj+2RiEcS756zDBM9k6XL43vI703O57iKSmQcGwZkXgutR88vGKJDPdanBFxYTe6z/G8HBJ6Hn1nmRPRqszBSr4joCaoMUzImqaZOntNdnGzDJg== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 48c3393f-9a5f-437d-f2fe-08d978286169 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 09:08:27.7446 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HB6RDGotiP+T6YlxExIwxNBKh3c9q0KJowpcEbEoSdE7UZMBanrO0bvNnKi14awDiTQvWQ1YCzgbhu4J8/TdXA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB0009 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.18, xbe-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:08:37 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Clarke (jclarke) > Sent: 14 September 2021 20:38 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Revision-labels within filenames >=20 > > I wasn't thinking of a URL to get the revision-label, I was more thinki= ng of a > URL to identify the source YANG file for a particular revision. > > > > E.g., in the YANG packages examples: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages# > > appendix-A > > > > Ideally, I would like the URLs pointing the source YANG files to be abl= e to do > so without requiring any encoding of the '@' or '#' symbol. >=20 > Wouldn't you think these locations would be generated via tooling (i.e., > consumable by automation or just having people click)? I would expect a > human to look at the other package metadata to get the list of modules an= d > their revisions. I agree that over time, most of these will be generated by tooling. But I = suspect that there will still be some cases where simple packages may be wr= itten and maintained by hand, where the risk is that incorrect URLs will be= used, albeit, that it would be relatively easy for tooling to validate the= URLs. >=20 > > > > E.g., looking at some of the examples (which seem to have been converte= d > somewhere), and hence the @ symbol has been converted to %40, which > makes the date look like 40k years into the future. > > > > "location": [ "https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/\ > > iana-crypt-hash%402014-08-06.yang" > > ], > > > > If this location can be something like https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-c= rypt- > hash@2014-08-06.yang or https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-crypt- > hash@2.3.1.yang then I think that it would make these URLs more readable. >=20 > I do agree it's more readable, but I don't think it's critical to ensure. I agree it is not critical, just nice to have. 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2021 10:58:50 +0000 From: tom petch To: Carsten Bormann , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "netmod@ietf.org" , "STARK, BARBARA H" , Babel at IETF Thread-Topic: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address Thread-Index: AQHXqiCqgDJcR3KJe0SBfixmaEpJDg== Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:58:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914191618.khcicr6o4x5sdki3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <21E40C00-5C1B-4C54-9CDB-B99AC14B1F3E@tzi.org> <20210914235319.is4x5nzuqdz26dv4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 9e2be7a4-7435-82aa-9d58-94ae298f96b5 authentication-results: tzi.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tzi.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 3SddzP/sitnx2+F6JGBfB44C/jTvuKrHAriqBk3PbYE2vnHQ3zSVEJwd1TK/DDAyGeBwad4E5rpU4LORdFROqA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5PR0701MB2915 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:59:00 -0000 Barbara=0A= =0A= Top posting a slightly different question.=0A= =0A= Belatedly doing my homework, I see that not all the NULL are uint16. One, = next-hop, is ip-address. We have the options discussed for uint16 but coul= d also use zero (or some other value) to mean NULL. Zero is of course the = way the default is commonly represented.=0A= =0A= How is this handled in TR-181? How would you like it handled in YANG?=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: netmod on behalf of tom petch =0A= Sent: 15 September 2021 10:04=0A= =0A= From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lde= r =0A= Sent: 15 September 2021 00:53=0A= =0A= On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 01:01:11AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:=0A= > > If BBF already=0A= > > defined to use -1, so be it.=0A= >=0A= > That works for me and is consistent with the information model in 9046.= =0A= >=0A= > What I find not so great is the side effect of going from uint16 to int32= .=0A= >=0A= > I don=92t see a big difference between=0A= > Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / -1=0A= > and=0A= > Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / empty=0A= >=0A= > I do not like=0A= >=0A= > Optional-uint16 =3D int32=0A= =0A= YANG leaves the bits business to the encodings. In YANG, you can of=0A= course use=0A= =0A= type int32 { range -1 | 0..65535 }=0A= =0A= and then its left to the encodings. Im XML/JSON, -1 is 16 bits and=0A= 65535 is 40 bits - and the name of the leaf is likely worse. I am too=0A= lazy to lookup what the CBOR encoding would do with the range...=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I am with Juergen here, and in a previous post, that if that is the way it = is done in BBF, then that is a compelling reason to do the same.=0A= =0A= Also, you can create a typedef for it, in one place in the model with a des= cription, both in the YANG and in the body of the I-D, and then use that ty= pe in all the places that it applies, which, for me, makes for a clearer, e= asier to understand model.=0A= =0A= I suggested boolean but agree that it is clumsy, not quite right (although = I have seen it somewhere). I suggested choice/case because that is what ot= hers do but as before, following BBF is a more compelling argument.=0A= =0A= It also addresses the problem of access control making it a challenge to kn= ow what is going on. The one leaf, the one object, you get it or you do no= t. Simple!=0A= =0A= And if you want to save bits, then YANG is not for you; the design aim was = text that anyone could read anywhere; if you want to save bits, then you ne= ed a compact binary representation:-)=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= (who is on European time)=0A= =0A= > > The alternative is to not=0A= =0A= instantiate the leaf if there is no value=0A= > > and to accept that a client can't tell the difference between 'there=0A= > > is no value' and 'the value has been suppressed by authorization'.=0A= >=0A= > Interesting. I wasn=92t aware that this cannot be distinguished in YANG.= =0A= =0A= I have to correct what I wrote. Its the leaf that is suppressed, not=0A= the value.=0A= =0A= In XML, if does not exist, the client gets nothing. If =0A= does exist (and it's value is empty in this example) and authorization=0A= rules say 'don't tell the client', the client gets nothing. A client=0A= not getting can't decide whether there is no because=0A= does not exist or authorization prevented access to .=0A= =0A= Authorization is not part of YANG. NACM started as an extension to=0A= NETCONF in order to control access to data. Initially the acronym NACM=0A= expanded to the 'NETCONF Access Control Model', RFC 6536. The revised=0A= NACM also works with RESTCONF (and likely other protocols) and hence=0A= the acronym now expands to the 'Network Configuration Access Control=0A= Model', RFC 8341.=0A= =0A= > But an =93empty=94 would be present if it is chosen, no?=0A= =0A= You grant or restrict access to and it does not matter what=0A= type has or which value has (if it is a leaf) or whether=0A= is the root of a deeply nested tree (if it is a container). If=0A= a client has no permissions to read , then is silently=0A= omitted.=0A= =0A= Things are different if a client attempts to create/write/delete=0A= , in this case the client will get an explicit authorization=0A= failure error. For the details, see RFC 8341.=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= --=0A= Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Wed Sep 15 05:51:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14D93A17AA; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 05:51:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjR3t12dLeUL; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 05:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 503963A17A8; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 05:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR02MB6924.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 97b20314-b337-4836-b786-08d978477d0c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 12:51:08.4208 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8PPrL5hHdwEu8KG0Y9RN+DppXLp7t7IM82fqK8uAcQZnbD8GtQ6muIgkHgZGmxyU X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR02MB4121 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: F3F58A5E2B5C8CD1DEACAE9E6FDBCCAD18E919A1646E0519105AF5CA22775AAD2 X-Proofpoint-GUID: BIrFpDAYk014JriPbOIPita0QXyUWWaR X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: BIrFpDAYk014JriPbOIPita0QXyUWWaR X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-15_03:2021-09-15, 2021-09-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109150082 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:51:29 -0000 > Barbara >=20 > Top posting a slightly different question. >=20 > Belatedly doing my homework, I see that not all the NULL are uint16. One= , > next-hop, is ip-address. We have the options discussed for uint16 but co= uld also > use zero (or some other value) to mean NULL. Zero is of course the way t= he > default is commonly represented. >=20 > How is this handled in TR-181? How would you like it handled in YANG? >=20 > Tom Petch Hi Tom, In discussion with Mahesh, he has indicated preference for union with a "nu= ll" enumeration to handle the uint16 cases. He's also indicated he would pr= efer to do that for the ip-address. I see the YANG ip-address type is a union of ipv4-address and ipv6-address = types, both of which are strings. In BBF, there is the IPAddress datatype which is a string(45) with IPv4 and= IPv6 formats allowed. There are also IPv4Address and IPv6Address datatypes= that are defined as derivatives of the IPAddress datatype. An empty string= is used for "unspecified or inapplicable addresses". Strings, unlike ints,= have the luxury of being empty.=20 I'm perfectly fine with Mahesh's choice to use the union with a "null" enum= in all cases. It seems like a good solution.=20 Thx, Barbara =20 > From: netmod on behalf of tom petch > > Sent: 15 September 2021 10:04 >=20 > From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4l= der > > Sent: 15 September 2021 00:53 >=20 > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 01:01:11AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > If BBF already > > > defined to use -1, so be it. > > > > That works for me and is consistent with the information model in 9046. > > > > What I find not so great is the side effect of going from uint16 to int= 32. > > > > I don't see a big difference between > > Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / -1 > > and > > Optional-uint16 =3D uint16 / empty > > > > I do not like > > > > Optional-uint16 =3D int32 >=20 > YANG leaves the bits business to the encodings. In YANG, you can of > course use >=20 > type int32 { range -1 | 0..65535 } >=20 > and then its left to the encodings. Im XML/JSON, -1 is 16 bits and > 65535 is 40 bits - and the name of the leaf is likely worse. I am too > lazy to lookup what the CBOR encoding would do with the range... >=20 > >=20 > I am with Juergen here, and in a previous post, that if that is the way i= t is done in > BBF, then that is a compelling reason to do the same. >=20 > Also, you can create a typedef for it, in one place in the model with a > description, both in the YANG and in the body of the I-D, and then use th= at type > in all the places that it applies, which, for me, makes for a clearer, ea= sier to > understand model. >=20 > I suggested boolean but agree that it is clumsy, not quite right (althoug= h I have > seen it somewhere). I suggested choice/case because that is what others = do but > as before, following BBF is a more compelling argument. >=20 > It also addresses the problem of access control making it a challenge to = know > what is going on. The one leaf, the one object, you get it or you do not= . Simple! >=20 > And if you want to save bits, then YANG is not for you; the design aim wa= s text > that anyone could read anywhere; if you want to save bits, then you need = a > compact binary representation:-) >=20 > Tom Petch > (who is on European time) >=20 > > > The alternative is to not >=20 > instantiate the leaf if there is no value > > > and to accept that a client can't tell the difference between 'there > > > is no value' and 'the value has been suppressed by authorization'. > > > > Interesting. I wasn't aware that this cannot be distinguished in YANG. >=20 > I have to correct what I wrote. Its the leaf that is suppressed, not > the value. >=20 > In XML, if does not exist, the client gets nothing. If > does exist (and it's value is empty in this example) and authorization > rules say 'don't tell the client', the client gets nothing. A client > not getting can't decide whether there is no because > does not exist or authorization prevented access to . >=20 > Authorization is not part of YANG. NACM started as an extension to > NETCONF in order to control access to data. Initially the acronym NACM > expanded to the 'NETCONF Access Control Model', RFC 6536. The revised > NACM also works with RESTCONF (and likely other protocols) and hence > the acronym now expands to the 'Network Configuration Access Control > Model', RFC 8341. >=20 > > But an "empty" would be present if it is chosen, no? >=20 > You grant or restrict access to and it does not matter what > type has or which value has (if it is a leaf) or whether > is the root of a deeply nested tree (if it is a container). If > a client has no permissions to read , then is silently > omitted. >=20 > Things are different if a client attempts to create/write/delete > , in this case the client will get an explicit authorization > failure error. For the details, see RFC 8341. >=20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 university.de/__;!!BhdT!0lzj- > SsD4F_BXA2xA1cZKG6UywIiSir64JMs2nHWe4NhV6ltLH2pt1EFLdoxAw$ > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod_= _; > !!BhdT!0lzj- > SsD4F_BXA2xA1cZKG6UywIiSir64JMs2nHWe4NhV6ltLH2pt1Ew7T22Pw$ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod_= _; > !!BhdT!0lzj- > SsD4F_BXA2xA1cZKG6UywIiSir64JMs2nHWe4NhV6ltLH2pt1Ew7T22Pw$ From nobody Wed Sep 15 08:44:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13E13A1DDC for ; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0101_01D7AA59.53DE0730" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ff8de084-c1e5-4f1b-875a-08d9785fb3de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 15:44:28.4049 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: u/JvibSlBPFEukm0ZiZUfqkNCTxoiT9mfmrquAMyRbFoNhTZV/SeS1OLobHJvzXxB1b+jOFW/V0o4fhpSG6Wk9fWeHDhTWdzUKrxuqoSSaQ= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8106 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:44:53 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01D7AA59.53DE0730 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0102_01D7AA59.53DE0730" ------=_NextPart_001_0102_01D7AA59.53DE0730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Rob, I can live with this, if Andy accepts. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) =20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 15., szerda 11:57 To: Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = Cc: NetMod WG Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Balazs, =20 Would this text be sufficient to alleviate your concerns? =20 leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; default report-all; description " Indicates how data nodes with default values are represented for all data nodes contained in the instance-data-set. =20 It uses the same definitions as per section 3 of RFC 6243, but applied in the context of an instance data file rather than a NETCONF request using the parameter. =20 For JSON files, the encoding of the 'report-all-tagged' option is as defined in section 4.8.9 of RFC 8040."; reference =E2=80=9CWith-defaults Capability for NETCONF, RFC = 6243.=E2=80=9D } =20 I think that having a default value for the leaf is helpful, but I = don=E2=80=99t mind if you prefer to set it to trim instead. =20 Andy, would this also be acceptable to you? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 14 September 2021 18:09 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 I do not have time for a conference on this leaf. You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not confusing to = users. I disagree. =20 IMO it is less confusing to use the correct typedef and declare in your = leaf description-stmt that the inclusion of defaults is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, = sec 3 does not apply. =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello, My view is that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might = be acceptable, but it is wrong, because: 1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC = 6243 ; Section 3 = ." (See line = 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are = inappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, = capabilities) 2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report = default data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and UC5 is about = reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the instance-data-set is usually = prepared by human SW developers which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not = know whether this is about reporting, replying, or just sending the = data.=20 In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who = creates the instance-data and why. There are so many potential = use-cases, that they may have very different processes creating and = using the data. The data is just present or absent. The wording in = With-default RFC is too specific: =E2=80=9Cdata is reported = ...=E2=80=9D. 3. report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML = attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can = have an attribute in JSON, but here specifically an XML attribute is = mentioned. 4. Rob, you stated that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms SHALL, = SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the good = solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is covered by = the instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be adhered to. = The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like =E2=80=9Cis = reported=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot reported=E2=80=9D. =20 That said, if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I = can accept the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward. I am willing to have a conference, would you arrange it? Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 13., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 I=E2=80=99m wondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting = to get to consensus on this issue (which I believe is important)? =20 The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that the data set = is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that default values are = removed from the data set. Hence, I think that those two choices = combine to make it impossible for a consumer of an instance data file to = know whether a data node has been excluded because it contained the = default value vs it has been excluded because it not part of the data = set. =20 However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the perspective = that if these instance data files represent configuration then = understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important. = To that end, I quite like Andy=E2=80=99s suggestion of directly reusing = the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the = definitions are entirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to = address my concern. leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; } Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked description, or = assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that this = could be made to work for you? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 September 2021 18:03 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: See below as BALAZS4 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = wrote: Hello Andy, See below as BALAZS3. =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach. BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata = retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual = data nodes set by the server=E2=80=9D These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I would like to stick with including text here. =20 =20 =20 I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf = "with-defaults-mode" typedef cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already = know how to deal with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. =20 =20 leaf includes-defaults { type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; } =20 I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. Andy BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I = avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: * It references = RFC 6243; = Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data = retrieval, capabilities) * The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report = default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. * report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML = attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding * I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. Is this acceptable? =20 =20 =20 The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3. It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all. The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes. =20 IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users. includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't. It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different = things. =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; =20 AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 } } description "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, thus any data node MAY be absent. =20 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set includes data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the same as the default value. =20 Data nodes that have no default values should always be included. Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual value is not equal to the schema defined default should always be included."; =20 =20 AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default are not relevant to this object. BALAZS3: OK =20 reference "RFC 6243 : = With-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; } =20 The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data = set is to include the "default" attribute in each default node. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution). BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. Here is the current proposed text: ------------------------------------------------------------ leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values, if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set."; } enum report-all-tagged { value 2; description "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of any default values if the data node=20 is covered by the instance-data-set. Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; } =20 enum trim { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is equal to the schema default =20 value SHALL NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 4; description "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the=20 schema default value SHALL NOT be included.=20 However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF=20 client or other management application by the way=20 of an explicit management operation, the data node=20 SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by=20 the instance-data-set."; } } description "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default=20 data. This leaf indicates whether default data is=20 included.=20 =20 As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data=20 sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or=20 leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set=20 does not intend to include the data node independent=20 of default handling."; reference "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; }=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Andy, In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed. =20 I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as = instance-file-format does not use the concept of = =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate what is = the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set. As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to = specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the = handling used for this specific instance data set. =20 Regards Balazs =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; NetMod WG > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = > = wrote: Hello Rob, I think this won=E2=80=99t fly.=20 In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: =E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because = they are not part of the partial data set. In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing = because - They are not part of the partial data-set - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. =20 =20 =20 I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to represent "no defaults added". =20 Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a = leaf reporting the YANG default could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly = identify defaults in this case. =20 Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults = ever reported. This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default = and always returns every node (if with-defaults used or not). =20 This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. Regards Balazs =20 Andy =20 =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >; Andy Bierman >; NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, =20 Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the = description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than = SHOULDs. =20 Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are = somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the = default values. =20 With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway. =20 =20 In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } =20 Proposed: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "The instance data set includes all data nodes, including those that contain the schema = default.=E2=80=9D; } enum trim { value 2; description "The instance data set excludes all data nodes that contain the schema default."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "The instance data set may include some data nodes that match the schema default and may exclude some data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; } } description "This leaf provides an indication of how default data is presented within an instance data set, modelled on RFC 6243. =20 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the context of what the instance data set represents. =20 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the instance data set represents operational data from the=20 operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then include-defaults aligns to the definition of that datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; =20 Would text along these lines work? =20 Thanks, Rob =20 =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel >=20 Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >; Andy Bierman > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hello Rob, Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. =20 Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: = reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other = use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value case = (ii) will not. Regards Balazs =20 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = >=20 Sent: 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 To: Andy Bierman >; = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Cc: NetMod WG > Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi Andy, Balazs, =20 So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are = in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: =20 Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then this implies that the node is not used by the device. =20 It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data = cannot differentiate between: (i) This value is not present because it matches the = default value specified in the YANG module, and (ii) This value is not present because the server has = failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would = have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a = bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). =20 So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not = necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the = instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this = data. =20 I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another = way of articulating this would be: =20 leaf in-use-values { type boolean; default false; description =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the instance data for a given data node implies that the node is not used rather than implicitly taking the default value specified by any corresponding =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D; } =20 With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the = =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in the = draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D. =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: Andy Bierman >=20 Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41 To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: NetMod WG >; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel > Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: Andy, =20 Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be = sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default = values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. =20 =20 =20 The solution is simple. Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. =20 If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used = to include defaults. If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or = defaults were not added. =20 The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever been able to convince the others that theirs is right. =20 =20 Andy =20 E.g., something along these lines: =20 leaf exclude-defaults { type boolean; default true; description =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. =20 When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content data. =20 When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D } =20 Would this satisfy your concern? =20 Regards, Rob =20 =20 From: netmod > = On Behalf Of Andy Bierman Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16 To: NetMod WG > Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf =20 Hi, =20 The module has this object: =20 leaf includes-defaults { type enumeration { enum report-all { value 1; description "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of any default values."; } enum trim { value 2; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included."; } enum explicit { value 3; description "Data nodes that have a default defined and where the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be included. However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF client or other management application by the way of an explicit management operation the data node SHOULD be included."; } } default trim; =20 The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but = this leaf is too server-centric to ignore. =20 Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF = server. This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. =20 IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called = "unknown". =20 =20 Andy =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0102_01D7AA59.53DE0730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Rob,

I can live with this, if Andy = accepts.

Regards = Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) = <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 15., szerda = 11:57
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Balazs,

 

Would this text be sufficient to alleviate your = concerns?

 

leaf includes-defaults {

   type = ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

   default report-all;

   description = "

     Indicates how data nodes with = default values are

     represented for all data nodes = contained in the

     = instance-data-set.

    

     It = uses the same definitions as per section 3 of RFC = 6243,

     but applied in the context of an = instance data file rather

     than a = NETCONF request using the <with-defaults>

     = parameter.

    

     For = JSON files, the encoding of the = 'report-all-tagged'

     option is as defined in section = 4.8.9 of RFC 8040.";

   reference = =E2=80=9CWith-defaults Capability for NETCONF, RFC = 6243.=E2=80=9D

}

 

I think that having a default value for the leaf is = helpful, but I don=E2=80=99t mind if you prefer to set it to trim = instead.

 

Andy, would this also be acceptable to = you?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy = Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> =
Sent: 14 September 2021 18:09
To: Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi,

 

I do not have time for a conference = on this leaf.

You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not = confusing to users.

I = disagree.

 

IMO it is less confusing to use the = correct typedef and declare in your leaf = description-stmt

that the inclusion of defaults is = not considered a retrieval, so 6243, sec 3 does not = apply.

 

 

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello,<= /o:p>

My view is = that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might be = acceptable, but it is wrong, because:

  1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the = data type does reference "RFC 6243; Section 3." (See line 58 in the YANG module). = Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are inappropriate for the = instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, = capabilities)
  2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes = to report default data." From the 8 listed use-cases = only two UC4 and UC5 is about reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the = instance-data-set is usually prepared by human SW developers which is = not reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether this is about reporting, = replying, or just sending the data.

In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about = who creates the instance-data and why. There are so many potential = use-cases, that they may have very different processes creating and = using the data.  The data is just present or absent. The wording in = With-default RFC is too specific: =E2=80=9Cdata is reported = ...=E2=80=9D.

  1. report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML = attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can = have an attribute in JSON, but here specifically an XML attribute is = mentioned.
  2. Rob, you stated  that it is preferred to use the 2119 = terms SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is = the good solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is = covered by the instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be = adhered to. The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like = =E2=80=9Cis reported=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot = reported=E2=80=9D.

 <= /o:p>

That said, = if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I can accept = the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward.
I am willing to = have a conference, would you arrange it?

Regards = Balazs

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = szeptember 13., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

I=E2=80=99m wondering whether it might be helpful to = arrange a meeting to get to consensus on this issue (which I believe is = important)?

 

The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that = the data set is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that = default values are removed from the data set.  Hence, I think that = those two choices combine to make it impossible for a consumer of an = instance data file to know whether a data node has been excluded because = it contained the default value vs it has been excluded because it not = part of the data set.

 

However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the = perspective that if these instance data files represent configuration = then understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is = important.  To that end,  I quite like Andy=E2=80=99s = suggestion of directly reusing the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because = it guarantees that the definitions are entirely consistent, and I = believe that it sufficient to address my = concern.

  =    leaf includes-defaults {

  =        type = ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

  =    }

Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked = description, or assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults = leaf, that this could be made to work for you?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

 

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 = September 2021 18:03
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

See below = as BALAZS4

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, Sep = 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Andy,

See below = as BALAZS3.

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 25., szerda 18:29
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi,

 <= /o:p>

Here is the = latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section = 3.

IMO the = subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change = approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about = =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by the = server=E2=80=9D

These parts are not relevant for many of the = instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with including text = here.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I guess I = do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf = "with-defaults-mode" typedef

cannot be = used. IMO this is bad practice.  Applications that already know how = to deal

with = defaults according to RFC 6243 should be = supported.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

  =    leaf includes-defaults {

  =        type = ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

  =    }

 <= /o:p>

I do not = see any text in this typedef that is = server-specific.

Andy

BALAZS4:  While I generally agree that = duplication is a bad practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode = because:

=C2=B7        =
It references RFC 6243; Section 3 =
which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, =
capabilities)
=C2=B7        =
The typedef=E2=80=99s description =
is "Possible modes to report default data." However, in a =
number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading default configuration data, =
UC7, U8) the data is not reported.
=C2=B7        =
report-all-tagged description =
contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use =
JSON encoding
=C2=B7        =
I prefer to use the 2119 term =
SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum =
descriptions.
Is this acceptable?
 

 

 

The data type I suggested does not have any references to = section 3.

It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at = all.

The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports = attributes.

 

IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for = users.

includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it = isn't.

It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they = mean different things.

 

 

Andy

 

 <= /o:p>

   =
leaf includes-defaults {
         =
type enumeration {
        &nb=
sp;  enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;    value 1;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        &nb=
sp;      "All data nodes SHOULD be =
included independent of
        &nb=
sp;        any default =
values.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, 3.1
        &nb=
sp;  }
        &nb=
sp;  enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;    value 2;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        =
       "Data nodes that have a =
default defined and where
        &nb=
sp;        the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;        NOT be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.2
        &nb=
sp;  }
        &nb=
sp;  enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;    value 3;
        &nb=
sp;    description
        &nb=
sp;      "Data nodes that have a default =
defined and where
        &nb=
sp;        the actual value is the =
default value SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;        included. However, if the =
actual value was set by
        &nb=
sp;        a NETCONF client or other =
management application
        &nb=
sp;        by the way of an explicit =
management operation the
        &nb=
sp;        data node SHOULD be =
included.";
 
AB: should =
follow 6243, section 3.3
        &nb=
sp;  }
         =
}
         =
description
        &nb=
sp;  "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =
sets,
        &nb=
sp;    thus any data node MAY be =
absent.
 
        &nb=
sp;    Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain =
a
        &nb=
sp;    full data set, this leaf specifies whether the =
data set
        &nb=
sp;    includes data nodes that have a default defined =
and
        &nb=
sp;    where the actual value is the same as the default =
value.
 
        &nb=
sp;    Data nodes that have no default values should =
always
        &nb=
sp;    be included.
        &nb=
sp;    Data nodes that have a default value, but the =
actual
        &nb=
sp;    value is not equal to the schema defined =
default
        &nb=
sp;    should always be =
included.";
 
 
AB: The last =
paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes =
special?
Nodes that are actually present and do not contain =
the YANG default
are not relevant =
to this object.
BALAZS3: OK
 
         =
reference
        &nb=
sp;  "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for =
NETCONF";
       =
}

 <= /o:p>

The best = way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data set is to = include

the = "default" attribute in each default node. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6=

This = actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current = solution).

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to = includes-defaults leaf.

Here is the current proposed = text:

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

    leaf includes-defaults = {

      type enumeration = {

        enum = report-all {

         =  value 1;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

        &= nbsp;     any default values, if the data node =

        &= nbsp;     is covered by the = instance-data-set.";

        = }

        enum = report-all-tagged  {

        &= nbsp; value 2;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "All data nodes SHALL be included independent = of

        &= nbsp;     any default values if the data node =

        &= nbsp;     is covered by the = instance-data-set.

        &= nbsp;     Any nodes considered to be default data = SHALL

      =         contain a 'default' = attribute set to 'true'";

        = }       

        e= num trim {

        &= nbsp; value 3;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "Data nodes that have a default defined and = where

        &= nbsp;     the actual value is equal to the schema = default 

        &= nbsp;     value SHALL NOT be = included.";

        = }

        enum = explicit {

        &= nbsp; value 4;

        &= nbsp; description

        &= nbsp;   "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to = the

        &= nbsp;     schema default value SHALL NOT be = included.

        &= nbsp;     However, if the actual value was set = by a NETCONF

        &= nbsp;     client or other management = application by the way

        &= nbsp;     of an explicit management operation, = the data node

        &= nbsp;     SHALL be included, if the data node = is covered by

        &= nbsp;     the = instance-data-set.";

        = }

      = }

      = description

        = "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default =

        &= nbsp; data. This leaf indicates whether default data is =

        &= nbsp; included.

        &= nbsp; 

        &= nbsp; As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data =

        &= nbsp; sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or =

        &= nbsp; leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set =

        &= nbsp; does not intend to include the data node independent =

        &= nbsp; of default handling.";

      = reference

        = "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for = NETCONF

         = RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";

    }

-------------------------------------------------= -----------

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Tue, Aug = 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Andy,

In the -17 = I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you = proposed.

 <= /o:p>

I am not = sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does = not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single = leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific = instance-data-set.

As this is = not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to specify a = basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling used = for this specific instance data set.

 <= /o:p>

Regards = Balazs

 <= /o:p>

From:= Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob = Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hello = Rob,

I think = this won=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections = 1.2 and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data =
files MAY contain partial data =
sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is =
important for many use-cases.  This means you cannot say that a =
default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because =
they are not part of the partial data =
set.
In a way it =
is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing =
because
-        They are not =
part of the partial data-set
-        They are =
omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or =
explicit options is used
If this =
becomes important the report-all =
options =
shall be used.
 =

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I thought = we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to

represent = "no defaults added".

 <= /o:p>

Note that = "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, = since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be = set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify = defaults in this case.

 <= /o:p>

Also note = that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults ever = reported.

This mode = means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always = returns

every node = (if with-defaults used or not).

 <= /o:p>

This is the =
reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards =
Balazs

 <= /o:p>

Andy

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From:= Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman = <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 <= /o:p>

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to = strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses = MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative = descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically = focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the = =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I = think that this effectively what the meaning would be = anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as = follows:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "All data nodes SHOULD be included = independent of

         &= nbsp;       any default = values.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD

         &= nbsp;       NOT be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "Data nodes that have a default = defined and where

         &= nbsp;       the actual value is the = default value SHOULD NOT be

         &= nbsp;       included. However, if the = actual value was set by

         &= nbsp;       a NETCONF client or other = management application

         &= nbsp;       by the way of an explicit = management operation the

         &= nbsp;       data node SHOULD be = included.";

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

     =  

Proposed:

 

       leaf = includes-defaults {

         type = enumeration {

         &= nbsp; enum report-all {

         &= nbsp;   value 1;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set includes all = data nodes,

         &= nbsp;      including those that contain the = schema default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum trim {

         &= nbsp;   value 2;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set excludes all = data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that contain the schema = default.";

         &= nbsp; }

         &= nbsp; enum explicit {

         &= nbsp;   value 3;

         &= nbsp;   description

         &= nbsp;     "The instance data set may include = some data nodes

         &= nbsp;      that match the schema default and = may exclude some

         &= nbsp;      data nodes that match the schema = default.=E2=80=9D;

         &= nbsp; }

         = }

         = description

         &= nbsp; "This leaf provides an indication of how default = data

         &= nbsp;  is presented within an instance data set, modelled = on

         &= nbsp;  RFC 6243.

 

         &= nbsp;  Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on = the

         &= nbsp;  context of what the instance data set = represents.

 

         &= nbsp;  E.g., if the instance data set represents = configuration,

         &= nbsp;  Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of = the

         &= nbsp;  default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If = the

         &= nbsp;  instance data set represents operational data from the =

         &= nbsp;  operational state datastore [RFC 8342], = then

         &= nbsp;  include-defaults aligns to the definition of = that

         &= nbsp;  datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: = 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address = Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the = use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for = the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational = datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by indicating the = includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain the value = case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. = j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: = NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate = whether default values are in use is because of this definition of = operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from = <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of = any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is = returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by = the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a = consumer of operational data cannot differentiate = between:

(i)          = ;     This value is not = present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG = module, and

(ii)          = ;    This value is not present = because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., = perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not = available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and = is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of = a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in = effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain = and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured = by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would = be:

 

leaf in-use-values = {

  type = boolean;

  default = false;

  = description

    = =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in = the

     = instance data for a given data node implies that = the

    n= ode is not used rather than implicitly taking = the

     = default value specified by any corresponding

    =E2= =80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG = schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

 

With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we = need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2=80=9D leaf currently specified in = the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely = optional, i.e., without the default = =E2=80=9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July = 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG = <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: = Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults = leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking = that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that = automatically filtering out default values isn=E2=80=99t always the = right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is = simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default = trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the = basic-mode that was used to include = defaults.

If not then the information is either not = known, not applicable, or defaults were not = added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug = because there is no default = basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in = deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs = is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these = lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults = {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    =E2=80=9CCan be used to = reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or = set to true, data nodes that have a default defined = and

      where the = actual value is the default value are excluded from the = content

    =   data.

 

      When set to = false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, = and

      may appear in = the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

 

Would this satisfy your = concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this = object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults =
{
       =
type enumeration {
         =
enum report-all {
        &nb=
sp;  value 1;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "All data nodes SHOULD be included =
independent of
        &nb=
sp;      any default =
values.";
         =
}
         =
enum trim {
        &nb=
sp;  value 2;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD
        &nb=
sp;      NOT be =
included.";
         =
}
         =
enum explicit {
        &nb=
sp;  value 3;
        &nb=
sp;  description
        &nb=
sp;    "Data nodes that have a default defined and =
where
        &nb=
sp;      the actual value is the default value =
SHOULD NOT be
        &nb=
sp;      included. However, if the actual value =
was set by
        &nb=
sp;      a NETCONF client or other management =
application
        &nb=
sp;      by the way of an explicit management =
operation the
        &nb=
sp;      data node SHOULD be =
included.";
         =
}
       =
}
       =
default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like = most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to = ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of = the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of = "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that = knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is = incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default = is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode = must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least = add an enum called = "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 

<= /blockquote>
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Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id i25so6990482lfg.6 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:56:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bDb3lFPGeFEmIozS+iVKhe5tRrMeMjaskw1+pZHbYUo=; b=zyEGcH6CgXZU7w6NVqBB91btl+n4dHad3VH68X73cT1N5mp6lL3PhXVzEu1cxJPov9 RLUZ7bO+jmvr4KKR5dRbF5AEDobZqkbNAfJpyCoe15RT+Z977pImPOT4KV1375rxPE0E G9QMMgmlGf9foMdJjZRYQc5fBSUnkAW9TFcYOzbRPjnTiGmh2zsf5Ty6h8Ca7YymVnPv H1cPPucJrIK+/AJhfIcPLkbJ6+GbIK51JcU896OPhnyPORuoktJDp6WzpL4l0ug1/feJ HOTxAfSlKc43hSenIGRt5stjtjyiVIGjZpHS36c9/NoPr1IBmaF851ch0vQIY/a/XAtn 8Pkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bDb3lFPGeFEmIozS+iVKhe5tRrMeMjaskw1+pZHbYUo=; b=Ac53qOcDjzb4fn+E9b/3/bRMWDy7wRe+CYrN/yW+EKmVb6H8LrTtt/TI7SjB0nc6w+ 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:56:35 -0000 --00000000000046ec7d05cc0abd9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:44 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Rob, > > I can live with this, if Andy accepts. > This is OK > Regards Balazs > Andy > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 15., szerda 11:57 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Balazs, > > > > Would this text be sufficient to alleviate your concerns? > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > default report-all; > > description " > > Indicates how data nodes with default values are > > represented for all data nodes contained in the > > instance-data-set. > > > > It uses the same definitions as per section 3 of RFC 6243, > > but applied in the context of an instance data file rather > > than a NETCONF request using the > > parameter. > > > > For JSON files, the encoding of the 'report-all-tagged' > > option is as defined in section 4.8.9 of RFC 8040."; > > reference =E2=80=9CWith-defaults Capability for NETCONF, RFC 6243.=E2= =80=9D > > } > > > > I think that having a default value for the leaf is helpful, but I don=E2= =80=99t > mind if you prefer to set it to trim instead. > > > > Andy, would this also be acceptable to you? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 14 September 2021 18:09 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > I do not have time for a conference on this leaf. > > You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not confusing to > users. > > I disagree. > > > > IMO it is less confusing to use the correct typedef and declare in your > leaf description-stmt > > that the inclusion of defaults is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, se= c > 3 does not apply. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello, > > My view is that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might > be acceptable, but it is wrong, because: > > 1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC > 6243 ; Section 3 > ." (See line > 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are > inappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, > capabilities) > 2. The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to *report* de= fault > data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and UC5 is about repor= ting. > In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the instance-data-set is usually prepared by h= uman > SW developers which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether th= is is > about reporting, replying, or just sending the data. > > In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who create= s > the instance-data and why. There are so many potential use-cases, that th= ey > may have very different processes creating and using the data. The data = is > just present or absent. The wording in With-default RFC is too specific: > =E2=80=9Cdata is reported ...=E2=80=9D. > > 1. report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=80= =9D which is > incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can have an attribute in JSON, = but > here specifically an XML attribute is mentioned. > 2. Rob, you stated that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms SHALL, > SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the good > solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is covered b= y the > instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be adhered to. Th= e > ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like =E2=80=9Cis reporte= d=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot > reported=E2=80=9D. > > > > That said, if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I ca= n > accept the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward. > I am willing to have a conference, would you arrange it? > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 13., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > I=E2=80=99m wondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting to= get to > consensus on this issue (which I believe is important)? > > > > The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that the data set > is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that default values are > removed from the data set. Hence, I think that those two choices combine > to make it impossible for a consumer of an instance data file to know > whether a data node has been excluded because it contained the default > value vs it has been excluded because it not part of the data set. > > > > However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the perspective tha= t > if these instance data files represent configuration then understanding h= ow > RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important. To that end, I > quite like Andy=E2=80=99s suggestion of directly reusing the > ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the definitions > are entirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to address my > concern. > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > } > > Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked description, or assigne= d > default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that this could be mad= e > to work for you? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 September 2021 18:03 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > See below as BALAZS4 > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS3. > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3. > > IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change > approach. > > BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata retrieval=E2= =80=9D > =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual data nodes set by t= he server=E2=80=9D > > These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so = I > would like to stick with including text here. > > > > > > > > I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf > "with-defaults-mode" typedef > > cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that already know > how to deal > > with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. > > > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > > } > > > > I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. > > Andy > > BALAZS4: While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I > avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: > > =C2=B7 It references RFC 6243 ; Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, ca= pabilities) > > =C2=B7 The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to rep= ort default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading = default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported. > > =C2=B7 report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribu= te=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding > > =C2=B7 I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum = descriptions. > > Is this acceptable? > > > > > > > > The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3. > > It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all. > > The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes. > > > > IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users. > > includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't. > > It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different > things. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 > > } > > } > > description > > "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets, > > thus any data node MAY be absent. > > > > Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a > > full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set > > includes data nodes that have a default defined and > > where the actual value is the same as the default value. > > > > Data nodes that have no default values should always > > be included. > > Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual > > value is not equal to the schema defined default > > should always be included."; > > > > > > AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes = special? > > Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default > > are not relevant to this object. > > BALAZS3: OK > > > > reference > > "RFC 6243 : Wit= h-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; > > } > > > > The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data > set is to include > > the "default" attribute in each default node. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 > > This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current > solution). > > BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf. > > Here is the current proposed text: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values, if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set."; > > } > > enum report-all-tagged { > > value 2; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values if the data node > > is covered by the instance-data-set. > > Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL > > contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is equal to the schema default > > value SHALL NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 4; > > description > > "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the > > schema default value SHALL NOT be included. > > However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF > > client or other management application by the way > > of an explicit management operation, the data node > > SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by > > the instance-data-set."; > > } > > } > > description > > "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default > > data. This leaf indicates whether default data is > > included. > > > > As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data > > sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or > > leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set > > does not intend to include the data node independent > > of default handling."; > > reference > > "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF > > RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; > > } > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you > proposed. > > > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2= =80=9D. It has a > single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specif= ic > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to > specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handlin= g > used for this specific instance data set. > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won=E2=80=99t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > *=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partial data sets.=E2=80=9D* > > Which is important for many use-cases. This means you cannot say that a = default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because th= ey are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing beca= use > > - They are not part of the partial data-set > > - They are omitted because they have the default value and one of = the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used. > > > > > > > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way = to > > represent "no defaults added". > > > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a le= af > reporting the YANG default > > could be set by the client. Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify > defaults in this case. > > > > Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there will be no defaults > ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and > always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > > > Sorry for the delayed response. I would still like to strength the > description of the defaults. E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOUL= Ds. > > > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are > somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default > values. > > > > With these definitions, I think that we could define the > =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be =E2=80=9Cexplicit= =E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not > included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be > anyway. > > > > > > In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > > > Proposed: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D= ; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.=E2=80=9D; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > > > E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243. If the > > instance data set represents operational data from the > > operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D; > > > > Would text along these lines work? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the =E2=80=9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s = comment. > > > > Your *in-use-values* is very specific to one of the use-cases: > reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other > use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9Cdocumenting operational datastore=E2=80= =9D use-case could > be handled by indicating the *includes-defaults=3Dreport-all*. Case (i) > would contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > > > *From:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Sent:* 2021. j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are > in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > > > Requests to retrieve nodes from always return the value > > in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified > > in the YANG module. If no value is returned for a given node, then > > this implies that the node is not used by the device. > > > > It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data > cannot differentiate between: > > (i) This value is not present because it matches the > default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii) This value is not present because the server has failed > to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have > provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or > perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation). > > > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not > necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this da= ta. > > > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf. Another > way of articulating this would be: > > > > leaf in-use-values { > > type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > =E2=80=9COnly if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > > node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > > =E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified in the YANG schema.=E2= =80=9D; > > } > > > > With this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-def= ault=E2=80=9D leaf > currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that > leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80=9Ctrim= =E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > *Cc:* NetMod WG ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be > sufficient. My point being that automatically filtering out default valu= es > isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to > include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or > defaults were not added. > > > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > > > > > Andy > > > > E.g., something along these lines: > > > > leaf exclude-defaults { > > type boolean; > > default true; > > description > > =E2=80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file. > > > > When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined a= nd > > where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the > content > > data. > > > > When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, > and > > may appear in the content data.=E2=80=9D > > } > > > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > The module has this object: > > > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > default trim; > > > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > > > Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF > server. > > This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct. > > > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults. The solution is incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown= ". > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > --00000000000046ec7d05cc0abd9d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:44 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Rob,

I can live with this= , if Andy accepts.



This is OK
=C2=A0

<= u>

Regards Balazs


Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021= . szeptember 15., szerda 11:57
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <= ;netmod@ietf.org&g= t;
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf=

=C2=A0

Balazs,<= /p>

=C2=A0<= /p>

Would this text be sufficien= t to alleviate your concerns?

=C2=A0

leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0 type ncwd:with-defaul= ts-mode;

=C2=A0=C2=A0 default report-all;

=C2=A0=C2=A0 description "

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Indicates how data nodes with default values are

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 repr= esented for all data nodes contained in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance-data= -set.

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0It uses the same definitio= ns as per section 3 of RFC 6243,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but applied in the conte= xt of an instance data file rather

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 than a NETCONF request= using the <with-defaults>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 parameter.=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0For JSON files, the encoding of the 'rep= ort-all-tagged'

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 option is as defined in section 4.8.9= of RFC 8040.";

=C2=A0 =C2=A0reference =E2=80=9CWith-defaults Capability for = NETCONF, RFC 6243.=E2=80=9D

= }

=C2=A0

I think that having a default value for the leaf is helpful= , but I don=E2=80=99t mind if you prefer to set it to trim instead.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Andy, would th= is also be acceptable to you?

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com&= gt;
Sent: 14 September 2021 18:09
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Leng= yel <ba= lazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com&= gt;; NetMod WG <net= mod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file inc= lude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I do not have time for a conference= on this leaf.

You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not= confusing to users.

I disagree.

=C2=A0

IMO it is less confusin= g to use the correct typedef and declare in your leaf description-stmt

= that the inclusion of defaults is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, sec = 3 does not apply.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

= On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello,

My view is th= at reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might be acceptable, = but it is wrong, because:

  1. = As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC 6= 243; Section 3." (See line 58 in the YANG module). = Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are inappropriate for the instanc= e-data draft (server, data retrieval, capabilities)
  2. = The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to report default data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and UC5= is about reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the instance-data-set is usual= ly prepared by human SW developers which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not= know whether this is about reporting, replying, or just sending the data. =

I= n the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who creates t= he instance-data and why. There are so many potential use-cases, that they = may have very different processes creating and using the data.=C2=A0 The da= ta is just present or absent. The wording in With-default RFC is too specif= ic: =E2=80=9Cdata is reported ...=E2=80=9D.

  1. report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attri= bute=E2=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can have an a= ttribute in JSON, but here specifically an XML attribute is mentioned.
  2. Rob, you stated =C2=A0that it is preferred to use the 21= 19 terms SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is = the good solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is cover= ed by the instance-data-set then the enum=E2=80=99s value MUST be adhered t= o. The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like =E2=80=9Cis repor= ted=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnot reported=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

That said, = if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I can accept the = data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward.
I am willing to have a= conference, would you arrange it?

= Regards Balazs

=C2=A0=

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021.= szeptember 13., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:05
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com&g= t;; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod = WG <netmod@ietf.org= >
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-default= s leaf

=C2=A0=

Hi Andy, Balazs,=

=C2=A0=

I=E2=80=99m w= ondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting to get to consens= us on this issue (which I believe is important)?

=C2=A0

The concern that I raised in my o= riginal AD review was that the data set is allowed to be partial with the R= ECOMMENDATION that default values are removed from the data set.=C2=A0 Henc= e, I think that those two choices combine to make it impossible for a consu= mer of an instance data file to know whether a data node has been excluded = because it contained the default value vs it has been excluded because it n= ot part of the data set.

=C2=A0

However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the= perspective that if these instance data files represent configuration then= understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important.=C2= =A0 To that end, =C2=A0I quite like Andy=E2=80=99s suggestion of directly r= eusing the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the def= initions are entirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to addre= ss my concern.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0leaf includes-defaults {

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;<= /p>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}

Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with= a tweaked description, or assigned default value for the leaf includes-def= aults leaf, that this could be made to work for you?

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /p>

Rob

=

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

=

From: Andy Bierma= n <andy@yumawork= s.com>
Sent: 10 September 2021 18:03
To: Bal=C3= =A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilt= on) <rwilton@cisc= o.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instanc= e-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

<= div>

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 a= t 5:15 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

See bel= ow as BALAZS4

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman &= lt;andy@yumaworks.c= om>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., p=C3=A9ntek 4:57
To= : Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob W= ilton (rwilton) <= rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] = yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Len= gyel <b= alazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS3.

=C2=A0

Fr= om: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szer= da 18:29
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject:<= /b> Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0=

Here is the latest text. It is incons= istent with RFC 6243, section 3.

IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change= approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about =E2=80=9Cdata r= etrieval=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccapabilities=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cconceptual dat= a nodes set by the server=E2=80=9D

These parts are not relevant fo= r many of the instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with includ= ing text here.

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

I guess I do not = understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf "with-def= aults-mode" typedef

cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice.=C2=A0 Applications that already = know how to deal

with de= faults according to RFC 6243 should be supported.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type ncwd:with-defaults-mo= de;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= }

=C2=A0

I do not see any text in this typedef t= hat is server-specific.

= Andy

BALAZS4: =C2=A0While I generally agree that duplication is a bad pr= actice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It re=
ferences RFC 6243; Section 3 which is =
full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, capabilities)
=C2=B7=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The typedef=E2=80=99s description is "Possible modes to r=
eport default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Prel=
oading default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported.
=C2=B7=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 report-all-tagged description contains =E2=80=9CXML attribute=E2=
=80=9D which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding
=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I prefer to=
 use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions.=

Is this acceptable?=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

The data type I suggested = does not have any references to section 3.

It does not have any MUST,SH= OULD,MAY text at all.

The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes= .

=C2=A0

IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users.

includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't.=

It uses t= he exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different things.

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type=
 enumeration {
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-al=
l {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data no=
des SHOULD be included independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0"Data nodes that have a default defined and wh=
ere
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHOULD=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be include=
d.";
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.=
2
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a =
default defined and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default value SHO=
ULD NOT be
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the actual value was set by=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 a NETCONF client or other management application
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the way of an =
explicit management operation the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included."=
;
=C2=A0
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "As instance-data-sets M=
AY contain incomplete data sets,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 thus any data node MAY be absent.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain=
 a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 full data set,=
 this leaf specifies whether the data set
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes data nodes that have a default defined an=
d
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actu=
al value is the same as the default value.
<=
span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have no default values should always=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be included.<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data nodes that have a def=
ault value, but the actual
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 value is not equal to the schema defined default=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should always be included."=
;
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
AB: The last paragraph =
should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes special?=

Node=
s that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default
are not relevant to this object.
BA=
LAZS3: OK
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reference
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF";<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=

The best way to indicat= e a representation of a YANG default in the data set is to include

the "default" attribut= e in each default node.=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/ht= ml/rfc6243#section-6

This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current s= olution).

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to include= s-defaults leaf.

Here is the current proposed text:<= u>

-----= -------------------------------------------------------

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be included indep= endent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values, if the data node

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0is covered by the instance-data-set.";

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 enum report-all-tagged=C2=A0 {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes SHALL be in= cluded independent of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any default values if the data node

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0is covered by the instance-data-set.=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Any n= odes considered to be default data SHALL

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0contain a 'de= fault' attribute set to 'true'";

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;<= /u>

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "D= ata nodes that have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual val= ue is equal to the schema default=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0value SHALL = NOT be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 4;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo= t;Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sch= ema default value SHALL NOT be included.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, if = the actual value was set by a NETCONF

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0client or other ma= nagement application by the way

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of an explicit managemen= t operation, the data node

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SHALL be included, if the d= ata node is covered by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0the instance-data-set.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "An instance-data-set m= ay contain or exclude default

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0data. This leaf indicates whether default data i= s

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0inc= luded.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As= instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sets: MAY NOT cover all data n= odes. A leaf or

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0does not inten= d to include the data node independent

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of default handling.";

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reference

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF<= /span>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 8040 :RESTCON= F Protocol";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

-----------------= -------------------------------------------

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 24, 20= 21 at 1:41 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy= ,

In the -17 I removed the default = value for includes-defaults as you proposed.

=C2=A0

I am not sure I un= derstand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does not use the = concept of =E2=80=9Cbasic-mode=E2=80=9D. It has a single leaf to indicate w= hat is the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set.

As this is not a live server request/rep= ly situation we do not want to specify a basic and additional modes, we jus= t want to specify the handling used for this specific instance data set.=

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0<= /u>

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021.= augusztus 23., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 18:58
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <= ;balazs.le= ngyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; = NetMod WG <netmod@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-= defaults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com= > wrote:

Hello Rob,

I think this w= on=E2=80=99t fly.

In sections 1.2 = and 2 we state:

=E2=80=9CInstance data files MAY contain partia=
l data sets.=E2=80=9D
Which is important for many use=
-cases.=C2=A0 This means you cannot say that a default value will or must b=
e included, as they might be omitted because they are not part of the parti=
al data set.
In a way it is difficult to separate between=
 leaves that are missing because
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are not part of the=
 partial data-set
-=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 They are omitted because they have the de=
fault value and one of the trim or explicit options is used
If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used.
=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

I thought we already agreed there = cannot be a default or there is no way to

represent "no defaults added".

=C2=A0

Note that "report-all" is not useful=C2=A0if ba= sic-mode=3Dexplicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default<= /p>

could be set by the client.=C2=A0 Only= report-all-tagged will clearly identify defaults in this case.

=C2=A0

=

Also note that if basic-mode=3Dreport-all then there= will be no defaults ever reported.

This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a d= efault and always returns

every node (if with-defaults used or not).

=C2=A0

<= pre>This is t= he reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs

=C2= =A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., h= =C3=A9tf=C5=91 12:27
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.co= m>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE:= [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

<= /div>

=C2=A0

= Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

=C2=A0

Sorry for the delayed response.=C2= =A0 I would still like to strength the description of the defaults.=C2=A0 E= .g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

=C2=A0

Hence, I have generated some propose= d alternative descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more gener= ically focussed only on the default values.

=C2=A0

With these definitions, I think that w= e could define the =E2=80=9Cinclude-defaults=E2=80=9D default value to be = =E2=80=9Cexplicit=E2=80=9D, since if the leaf if not included, then I think= that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In particular, I would pr= opose changing the descriptions as follows:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 lea= f includes-defaults {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumerat= ion {

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descript= ion

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= any default values.";

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 }

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description=

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and where=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 th= e actual value is the default value SHOULD

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.&= quot;;

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nod= es that have a default defined and where

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value = is the default value SHOULD NOT be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, if the = actual value was set by

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCONF client or other management a= pplication

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<= /span>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Proposed:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf includes-defa= ults {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 1;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "= ;The instance data set includes all data nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 including those that= contain the schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = trim {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 va= lue 2;

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de= scription

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set excludes all data nodes<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 th= at contain the schema default.";

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum = explicit {

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de= scription

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 "The instance data set may include some data nodes=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= that match the schema default and may exclude some

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data nodes tha= t match the schema default.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "This leaf provides an indication of how default data<= /span>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is presented w= ithin an instance data set, modelled on

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 6243.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 context of what the ins= tance data set represents.

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New&q= uot;;color:black">=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then include-defaults a= ligns to the meaning of the

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.=C2=A0 If the<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data set repre= sents operational data from the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 include-defaults aligns to= the definition of that

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 datastore in RFC 8342.=E2=80=9D;

=C2=A0

Would text along these lines work?<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Thanks,=

Rob=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Len= gyel <b= alazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
<= b>To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc= : NetMod WG <ne= tmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file in= clude-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hello Rob,=

Removing the =E2=80= =9Cdefault trim;=E2=80=9D will address Andy=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0=

Your in-use-values= is very specific to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operatio= nal values. It is not useful for the other use-cases. I think the =E2=80=9C= documenting operational datastore=E2=80=9D use-case could be handled by ind= icating the includes-defaults=3Dreport-all. Case (i) would contain t= he value case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021= . j=C3=BAlius 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <= ;netmod@ietf.org&g= t;
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf=

=C2=A0

Hi Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether defaul= t values are in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 834= 2:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requests to re= trieve nodes from <operational> always return the value=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in use if the node exists, regardless of any default valu= e specified

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the YANG module.=C2=A0 If no = value is returned for a given node, then

=C2=A0=C2=A0 t= his implies that the node is not used by the device.

= =C2=A0

It was written this way because otherwise a cons= umer of operational data cannot differentiate between:=

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because it matches the default value specified = in the YANG module, and

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 This value is not present because the= server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon t= hat would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it = is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).

=C2=A0

So, I think that in some cases,= the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default valu= e is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to conta= in and correctly report this data.

=C2=A0=

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.=C2= =A0 Another way of articulating this would be:

=C2=A0

leaf in-us= e-values {

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default false;

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9COnly if se= t to true, the absence of a value in the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 instance data fo= r a given data node implies that the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0node is not used rather= than implicitly taking the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default value specified by any = corresponding

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=98default=E2=80=99 statement specified = in the YANG schema.=E2=80=9D;

}

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">With = this, I=E2=80=99m not sure whether we need the =E2=80=9Cincludes-default=E2= =80=9D leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would th= ink that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default =E2=80= =9Ctrim=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,Rob

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>=
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <= ;rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson= .com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-def= aults leaf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul = 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag m= ight be sufficient.=C2=A0 My point being that automatically filtering out d= efault values isn=E2=80=99t always the right thing to do.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The solution= is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate &qu= ot;default trim" statement.

=C2=A0

If the leaf is present then it identifies the ba= sic-mode that was used to include defaults.

<= div>

= If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or default= s were not added.

=C2=A0

The "default" statement is a bug because there is no = default basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes a= re in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

Andy

=C2=A0

E.g., something along these lines:=

=C2=A0

leaf exclude-defaults {=

=C2=A0 type boolean;

=C2=A0 default true;=

=C2=A0 description

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2= =80=9CCan be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When unse= t or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 where the actual value is the default = value are excluded from the content

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0data.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When set to false, data nodes with default value are = not filtered, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may ap= pear in the content data.=E2=80=9D

}

=C2=A0

Would this satisfy your concern?=

=C2=A0

Regards,
Rob

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

From: netm= od <netmod-= bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 0= 8 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod]= yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

The module has this object:

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 leaf includes-defaults {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type enumeration {
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum report-all {<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 va=
lue 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "All data nodes=
 SHOULD be included independent of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an=
y default values.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enum trim {
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 2;<=
u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de=
scription
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defi=
ned and where
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the=
 default value SHOULD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOT be included.&=
quot;;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 enum explicit {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 value 3;
= 
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Data nodes that have a default defined and wher=
e
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the actual value is the default val=
ue SHOULD NOT be
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 included. However, i=
f the actual value was set by
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a NETCON=
F client or other management application
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 by the way of an explicit management operation the=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 data node SHOULD be included.";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default trim;
<= pre style=3D"margin-left:72pt;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0

The draft is extremely ser= ver-centric, like most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

= =C2=A0

Consider the possibility that the sou= rce of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

Thi= s data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be corre= ct.

=C2=A0

IM= O this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.=C2=A0 The solution is inc= omplete anyway because

the presence of a lea= f that has a YANG default is not enough.

The= =C2=A0 "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults= .

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at le= ast add an enum called "unknown".

<= div>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

Andy

=C2=A0

<= div>

= =C2=A0

<= /div>
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Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:10 +0000 From: tom petch To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , 'Carsten Bormann' , 'Juergen Schoenwaelder' CC: "'netmod@ietf.org'" , 'Babel at IETF' Thread-Topic: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address Thread-Index: AQHXqiCqgDJcR3KJe0SBfixmaEpJDqulDHMAgAA1G50= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914171729.ph5q77zm46z3zvxi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210914191618.khcicr6o4x5sdki3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <21E40C00-5C1B-4C54-9CDB-B99AC14B1F3E@tzi.org> <20210914235319.is4x5nzuqdz26dv4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 88e9f7ff-5149-78dd-ff42-76cbb9669e5b authentication-results: att.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;att.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f9a5c920-b6b4-433f-d727-08d97863b672 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 16:13:10.6117 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Oupqr7gJ7jpRhb6BnpHql8FH5//5EA7+fYWRn4q9ZH4K0sOwrq7NsSFi+s6ig2/T2dEsaDdJNEwJrqFt4rYc4w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5PR0701MB2371 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:19 -0000 From: STARK, BARBARA H =0A= Sent: 15 September 2021 13:51=0A= =0A= > Barbara=0A= >=0A= > Top posting a slightly different question.=0A= >=0A= > Belatedly doing my homework, I see that not all the NULL are uint16. One= ,=0A= > next-hop, is ip-address. We have the options discussed for uint16 but co= uld also=0A= > use zero (or some other value) to mean NULL. Zero is of course the way t= he=0A= > default is commonly represented.=0A= >=0A= > How is this handled in TR-181? How would you like it handled in YANG?=0A= >=0A= > Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Hi Tom,=0A= In discussion with Mahesh, he has indicated preference for union with a "nu= ll" enumeration to handle the uint16 cases. He's also indicated he would pr= efer to do that for the ip-address.=0A= I see the YANG ip-address type is a union of ipv4-address and ipv6-address = types, both of which are strings.=0A= In BBF, there is the IPAddress datatype which is a string(45) with IPv4 and= IPv6 formats allowed. There are also IPv4Address and IPv6Address datatypes= that are defined as derivatives of the IPAddress datatype. An empty string= is used for "unspecified or inapplicable addresses". Strings, unlike ints,= have the luxury of being empty.=0A= I'm perfectly fine with Mahesh's choice to use the union with a "null" enum= in all cases. It seems like a good solution.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= OK.=0A= =0A= Two digressions. One is that the RFC6991 YANG ip-address includes a zone, = a string of indeterminate length and flexible syntax, both for IPv4 and IPv= 6 so when this is specified, I wonder if the author is aware of this and th= e -no-zone alternative which, on occasions, is more appropriate.=0A= =0A= Second, left field. when I first posted, I had great difficulty in specifyi= ng the e-mail addresses I was sending to (still do:-(. I included the docu= ment shepherd, and you because I knew what your address is and it is easy t= o type correctly:-) The addresses I might have included, but did not, wer= e your fellow author (who is now on the thread); and the WG Chairs, the add= ress for the I-D and perhaps the AD. I trust that these others will be inv= olved when needed.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= Thx,=0A= Barbara=0A= =0A= > From: netmod on behalf of tom petch=0A= > =0A= > Sent: 15 September 2021 10:04=0A= >=0A= > From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4l= der=0A= > =0A= > Sent: 15 September 2021 00:53=0A= >=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:46:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE79E3A2091 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:45:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4pmRhM5ahuWC for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8D053A208E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4H99bQ24csz67mjR; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:43:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.47.73.118] (10.47.73.118) by fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:45:42 +0200 To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Andy Bierman , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Lengyel?= CC: NetMod WG References: From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:45:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4B95D485018674D9922CBF51" Content-Language: en-GB X-Originating-IP: [10.47.73.118] X-ClientProxiedBy: dggems701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.178) To fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:45:58 -0000 --------------4B95D485018674D9922CBF51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Rob for proposing this solution. It uses the with-defaults-mode typedef (which, in the end, is a good thing IMO from a tool point view) and the description makes it clear that it applies to instance data file uses cases. Regards, Benoit On 9/15/2021 11:56 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > Balazs, > > Would this text be sufficient to alleviate your concerns? > > leaf includes-defaults { > >    type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > >    default report-all; > >    description " > >      Indicates how data nodes with default values are > >      represented for all data nodes contained in the > >      instance-data-set. > >      It uses the same definitions as per section 3 of RFC 6243, > >      but applied in the context of an instance data file rather > >      than a NETCONF request using the > >      parameter. > >      For JSON files, the encoding of the 'report-all-tagged' > >      option is as defined in section 4.8.9 of RFC 8040."; > >    reference “With-defaults Capability for NETCONF, RFC 6243.” > > } > > I think that having a default value for the leaf is helpful, but I > don’t mind if you prefer to set it to trim instead. > > Andy, would this also be acceptable to you? > > Regards, > Rob > > *From:*Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 14 September 2021 18:09 > *To:* Balázs Lengyel > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > Hi, > > I do not have time for a conference on this leaf. > > You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not confusing to > users. > > I disagree. > > IMO it is less confusing to use the correct typedef and declare in > your leaf description-stmt > > that the inclusion of defaults is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, > sec 3 does not apply. > > Andy > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM Balázs Lengyel > > wrote: > > Hello, > > My view is that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, > might be acceptable, but it is wrong, because: > > 1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference > "RFC 6243 ; > Section 3 > ." > (See line 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of > concepts that are inappropriate for the instance-data draft > (server, data retrieval, capabilities) > 2. The typedef’s description is "Possible modes to */report/* > default data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and > UC5 is about reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the > instance-data-set is usually prepared by human SW developers > which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether this is > about reporting, replying, or just sending the data. > > In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who > creates the instance-data and why. There are so many potential > use-cases, that they may have very different processes creating > and using the data.  The data is just present or absent. The > wording in With-default RFC is too specific: “data is reported ...”. > > 3. report-all-tagged description contains “XML attribute” which > is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can have an > attribute in JSON, but here specifically an XML attribute is > mentioned. > 4. Rob, you stated  that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms > SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it > is the good solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the > data node is covered by the instance-data-set then the enum’s > value MUST be adhered to. The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype > uses wording like “is reported”, “not reported”. > > That said, if this is the cost of getting this document to the > IESG, I can accept the data-type. Please decide, so we can move > forward. > I am willing to have a conference, would you arrange it? > > Regards Balazs > > *From:*Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 13., hétfő 12:05 > *To:* Andy Bierman >; Balázs Lengyel > > > *Cc:* NetMod WG > > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > I’m wondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting to > get to consensus on this issue (which I believe is important)? > > The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that the > data set is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that > default values are removed from the data set. Hence, I think that > those two choices combine to make it impossible for a consumer of > an instance data file to know whether a data node has been > excluded because it contained the default value vs it has been > excluded because it not part of the data set. > > However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the > perspective that if these instance data files represent > configuration then understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults > handling applies is important.  To that end,  I quite like Andy’s > suggestion of directly reusing the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, > because it guarantees that the definitions are entirely > consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to address my concern. > >      leaf includes-defaults { > >  type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > >      } > > Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked description, or > assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that > this could be made to work for you? > > Thanks, > > Rob > > *From:*Andy Bierman > > *Sent:* 10 September 2021 18:03 > *To:* Balázs Lengyel > > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) >; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Balázs Lengyel > > > wrote: > > See below as BALAZS4 > > *From:*Andy Bierman > > *Sent:* 2021. szeptember 10., péntek 4:57 > *To:* Balázs Lengyel > > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) >; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Balázs Lengyel > > wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > See below as BALAZS3. > > *From:*Andy Bierman > > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29 > *To:* Balázs Lengyel > > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) >; NetMod WG > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > Hi, > > Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, > section 3. > > IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the > copy-and-change approach. > > BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about “data > retrieval” “capabilities” or “conceptual data nodes set by > the server” > > These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data > use cases, so I would like to stick with including text here. > > I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at > leaf "with-defaults-mode" typedef > > cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice. Applications that > already know how to deal > > with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported. > >      leaf includes-defaults { > >          type ncwd:with-defaults-mode; > >      } > > I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific. > > Andy > > BALAZS4:  While I generally agree that duplication is a bad > practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because: > > ·It references RFC 6243 > ; Section 3 > > which is full of inappropriate references (server, data > retrieval, capabilities) > > ·The typedef’s description is "Possible modes to report > default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 > Preloading default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is > not reported. > > ·report-all-tagged description contains “XML attribute” which > is incorrect if we use JSON encoding > > ·I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum > descriptions. > > Is this acceptable? > > The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3. > > It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all. > > The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes. > > IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users. > > includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't. > > It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean > different things. > > Andy > >    leaf includes-defaults { > >          type enumeration { > >            enum report-all { > >              value 1; > >              description > >                "All data nodes SHOULD be included > independent of > >                  any default values."; > > AB: should follow 6243, 3.1 > >            } > >            enum trim { > >              value 2; > >              description > >                "Data nodes that have a default defined and > where > >                  the actual value is the default value SHOULD > >                  NOT be included."; > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2 > >            } > >            enum explicit { > >              value 3; > >              description > >                "Data nodes that have a default defined and > where > >                  the actual value is the default value > SHOULD NOT be > >                  included. However, if the actual value > was set by > >                  a NETCONF client or other management > application > >                  by the way of an explicit management > operation the > >                  data node SHOULD be included."; > > AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3 > >            } > >          } > >          description > >            "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete > data sets, > >              thus any data node MAY be absent. > >              Providing the instance-data-set intends to > contain a > >              full data set, this leaf specifies whether > the data set > >              includes data nodes that have a default > defined and > >              where the actual value is the same as the > default value. > >              Data nodes that have no default values should > always > >              be included. > >              Data nodes that have a default value, but the > actual > >              value is not equal to the schema defined default > >              should always be included."; > > AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why > are these nodes special? > > Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the > YANG default > > are not relevant to this object. > > BALAZS3: OK > >          reference > >            "RFC 6243 > : > With-defaults Capability for NETCONF"; > >        } > > The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG > default in the data set is to include > > the "default" attribute in each default node. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6 > > > This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists > (unlike the current solution). > > BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to > includes-defaults leaf. > > Here is the current proposed text: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >     leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > >  value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values, if the data node > >               is covered by the instance-data-set."; > >         } > > enum report-all-tagged  { > > value 2; > > description > > "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of > > any default values if the data node > >               is covered by the instance-data-set. > > Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL > >         contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'"; > > } > >         enum trim { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is equal to the schema default > >               value SHALL NOT be included."; > >         } > > enum explicit { > > value 4; > > description > > "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the > >               schema default value SHALL NOT be included. > >               However, if the actual value was set by a > NETCONF > >               client or other management application by > the way > >               of an explicit management operation, the > data node > >               SHALL be included, if the data node is > covered by > >               the instance-data-set."; > >         } > >       } > > description > > "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default > >           data. This leaf indicates whether default data is > >           included. > >           As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data > >           sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or > >           leaf-list MAY be absent because the > instance-data-set > >           does not intend to include the data node > independent > >           of default handling."; > > reference > > "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF > > RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol"; > >     } > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Balázs Lengyel > > wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > In the -17 I removed the default value for > includes-defaults as you proposed. > > I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as > instance-file-format does not use the concept of > “basic-mode”. It has a single leaf to indicate what is > the situation with defaults in the specific > instance-data-set. > > As this is not a live server request/reply situation > we do not want to specify a basic and additional > modes, we just want to specify the handling used for > this specific instance data set. > > Regards Balazs > > *From:*Andy Bierman > > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., hétfő 18:58 > *To:* Balázs Lengyel > > *Cc:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) >; NetMod WG > > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Balázs Lengyel > > wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > I think this won’t fly. > > In sections 1.2 and 2 we state: > > /“Instance data files MAY contain partial data sets.”/ > > Which is important for many use-cases.  This means > you cannot say that a default value will or must > be included, as they might be omitted because they > are not part of the partial data set. > > In a way it is difficult to separate between > leaves that are missing because > > -They are not part of the partial data-set > > -They are omitted because they have the default > value and one of the trim or explicit options is used > > If this becomes important the report-alloptions > shall be used. > > I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default > or there is no way to > > represent "no defaults added". > > Note that "report-all" is not useful if > basic-mode=explicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG > default > > could be set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged > will clearly identify defaults in this case. > > Also note that if basic-mode=report-all then there > will be no defaults ever reported. > > This mode means the server does not consider any node > to be a default and always returns > > every node (if with-defaults used or not). > > This is the reason I used the SHOULD word. > > Regards Balazs > > Andy > > *From:*Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > *Sent:* 2021. augusztus 23., hétfő 12:27 > *To:* Balázs Lengyel >; Andy > Bierman >; NetMod WG > > > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod, > > Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still > like to strength the description of the defaults. > E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs. > > Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative > descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also > more generically focussed only on the default values. > > With these definitions, I think that we could > define the “include-defaults” default value to be > “explicit”, since if the leaf if not included, > then I think that this effectively what the > meaning would be anyway. > > In particular, I would propose changing the > descriptions as follows: > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of > > any default values."; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD > > NOT be included."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "Data nodes that have a default defined and where > > the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be > > included. However, if the actual value was set by > > a NETCONF client or other management application > > by the way of an explicit management operation the > > data node SHOULD be included."; > > } > > } > > Proposed: > > leaf includes-defaults { > > type enumeration { > > enum report-all { > > value 1; > > description > > "The instance data set includes all data nodes, > > including those that contain the schema default.”; > > } > > enum trim { > > value 2; > > description > > "The instance data set excludes all data nodes > > that contain the schema default."; > > } > > enum explicit { > > value 3; > > description > > "The instance data set may include some data nodes > > that match the schema default and may exclude some > > data nodes that match the schema default.”; > > } > > } > > description > > "This leaf provides an indication of how default data > > is presented within an instance data set, modelled on > > RFC 6243. > > Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the > > context of what the instance data set represents. > > E.g., if the instance data set represents > configuration, > > Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the > > default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If the > > instance data set represents operational data from > the > >             operational state datastore [RFC > 8342], then > > include-defaults aligns to the definition of that > > datastore in RFC 8342.”; > > Would text along these lines work? > > Thanks, > > Rob > > *From:*Balázs Lengyel > > *Sent:* 28 July 2021 23:08 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) >; Andy Bierman > > > *Cc:* NetMod WG > > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > Hello Rob, > > Removing the “default trim;” will address Andy’s > comment. > > Your /in-use-values/ is very specific to one of > the use-cases: reading/documenting operational > values. It is not useful for the other use-cases. > I think the “documenting operational datastore” > use-case could be handled by indicating the > /includes-defaults=report-all/. Case (i) would > contain the value case (ii) will not. > > Regards Balazs > > *From:*Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > *Sent:* 2021. július 27., kedd 17:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman >; Balázs Lengyel > > > *Cc:* NetMod WG > > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > Hi Andy, Balazs, > > So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate > whether default values are in use is because of > this definition of operational in RFC 8342: > > Requests to retrieve nodes from > always return the value > >    in use if the node exists, regardless of any > default value specified > >    in the YANG module.  If no value is returned > for a given node, then > >    this implies that the node is not used by the > device. > > It was written this way because otherwise a > consumer of operational data cannot differentiate > between: > > (i)This value is not present because it matches > the default value specified in the YANG module, and > > (ii)This value is not present because the server > has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., > perhaps the daemon that would have provided this > value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a > bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a > missing deviation). > > So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a > data node does not necessarily mean that the > default value is in effect, and I wanted the > instance-data document to be able to contain and > correctly report this data. > > I think that this behaviour could be captured by a > single leaf. Another way of articulating this > would be: > > leaf in-use-values { > >   type boolean; > > default false; > > description > > “Only if set to true, the absence of a value in the > > instance data for a given data node implies that the > >     node is not used rather than implicitly taking the > > default value specified by any corresponding > >     ‘default’ statement specified in the YANG > schema.”; > > } > > With this, I’m not sure whether we need the > “includes-default” leaf currently specified in the > draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf > should be entirely optional, i.e., without the > default “trim”. > > Regards, > Rob > > *From:*Andy Bierman > > *Sent:* 10 July 2021 17:41 > *To:* Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > *Cc:* NetMod WG >; Balázs Lengyel > > > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton > (rwilton) > wrote: > > Andy, > > Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking > that a boolean flag might be sufficient. My > point being that automatically filtering out > default values isn’t always the right thing to do. > > The solution is simple. > > Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement. > > If the leaf is present then it identifies the > basic-mode that was used to include defaults. > > If not then the information is either not known, > not applicable, or defaults were not added. > > The "default" statement is a bug because there is > no default basic-mode. > > All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments > and no camp has ever > > been able to convince the others that theirs is right. > > Andy > > E.g., something along these lines: > > leaf exclude-defaults { > >   type boolean; > >   default true; > >   description > >     “Can be used to reduce the size of the > content data file. > >       When unset or set to true, data nodes > that have a default defined and > >       where the actual value is the default > value are excluded from the content > >       data. > >       When set to false, data nodes with > default value are not filtered, and > >       may appear in the content data.” > > } > > Would this satisfy your concern? > > Regards, > Rob > > *From:*netmod > *On Behalf > Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 18:16 > *To:* NetMod WG > > *Subject:* [netmod] yang-instance-file > include-defaults leaf > > Hi, > > The module has this object: > >     leaf includes-defaults { > >        type enumeration { > >          enum report-all { > >            value 1; > >            description > >              "All data nodes SHOULD be > included independent of > >                any default values."; > >          } > >          enum trim { > >            value 2; > >            description > >              "Data nodes that have a default > defined and where > >                the actual value is the default > value SHOULD > >                NOT be included."; > >          } > >          enum explicit { > >            value 3; > >            description > >              "Data nodes that have a default > defined and where > >                the actual value is the default > value SHOULD NOT be > >                included. However, if the > actual value was set by > >                a NETCONF client or other > management application > >                by the way of an explicit > management operation the > >                data node SHOULD be included."; > >          } > >        } > >        default trim; > > The draft is extremely server-centric, like > most IETF standards, but this > > leaf is too server-centric to ignore. > > Consider the possibility that the source of > the file is NOT a NETCONF server. > > This data may not be known so the default of > "trim" may not be correct. > > IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that > knows the schema will also > > know the YANG defaults.  The solution is > incomplete anyway because > > the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default > is not enough. > > The "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to > identify defaults. > > IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least > add an enum called "unknown". > > Andy > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --------------4B95D485018674D9922CBF51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Rob for proposing this solution.
It uses the with-defaults-mode typedef (which, in the end,  is a good thing IMO from a tool point view) and the description makes it clear that it applies to instance data file uses cases.

Regards, Benoit

On 9/15/2021 11:56 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:

Balazs,

 

Would this text be sufficient to alleviate your concerns?

 

leaf includes-defaults {

   type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

   default report-all;

   description "

     Indicates how data nodes with default values are

     represented for all data nodes contained in the

     instance-data-set.

    

     It uses the same definitions as per section 3 of RFC 6243,

     but applied in the context of an instance data file rather

     than a NETCONF request using the <with-defaults>

     parameter.

    

     For JSON files, the encoding of the 'report-all-tagged'

     option is as defined in section 4.8.9 of RFC 8040.";

   reference “With-defaults Capability for NETCONF, RFC 6243.”

}

 

I think that having a default value for the leaf is helpful, but I don’t mind if you prefer to set it to trim instead.

 

Andy, would this also be acceptable to you?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 14 September 2021 18:09
To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

I do not have time for a conference on this leaf.

You think this cut-and-paste is good engineering and not confusing to users.

I disagree.

 

IMO it is less confusing to use the correct typedef and declare in your leaf description-stmt

that the inclusion of defaults is not considered a retrieval, so 6243, sec 3 does not apply.

 

 

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello,

My view is that reusing the data ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype, might be acceptable, but it is wrong, because:

  1. As opposed to what Andy has wrote the data type does reference "RFC 6243; Section 3." (See line 58 in the YANG module). Section 3 contains a lot of concepts that are inappropriate for the instance-data draft (server, data retrieval, capabilities)
  2. The typedef’s description is "Possible modes to report default data." From the 8 listed use-cases only two UC4 and UC5 is about reporting. In UC1,UC2,UC3, UC7,UC8 the instance-data-set is usually prepared by human SW developers which is not reporting. In UC6 we do not know whether this is about reporting, replying, or just sending the data.

In the instance-data draft we always avoided assumptions about who creates the instance-data and why. There are so many potential use-cases, that they may have very different processes creating and using the data.  The data is just present or absent. The wording in With-default RFC is too specific: “data is reported ...”.

  1. report-all-tagged description contains “XML attribute” which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding. You can have an attribute in JSON, but here specifically an XML attribute is mentioned.
  2. Rob, you stated  that it is preferred to use the 2119 terms SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions (and I also think it is the good solution). So, I reworded the text, that if the data node is covered by the instance-data-set then the enum’s value MUST be adhered to. The ncwd:with-defaults-mode datatype uses wording like “is reported”, “not reported”.

 

That said, if this is the cost of getting this document to the IESG, I can accept the data-type. Please decide, so we can move forward.
I am willing to have a conference, would you arrange it?

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 13., hétfő 12:05
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

I’m wondering whether it might be helpful to arrange a meeting to get to consensus on this issue (which I believe is important)?

 

The concern that I raised in my original AD review was that the data set is allowed to be partial with the RECOMMENDATION that default values are removed from the data set.  Hence, I think that those two choices combine to make it impossible for a consumer of an instance data file to know whether a data node has been excluded because it contained the default value vs it has been excluded because it not part of the data set.

 

However, I think that Andy is potentially coming from the perspective that if these instance data files represent configuration then understanding how RFC 6243 with-defaults handling applies is important.  To that end,  I quite like Andy’s suggestion of directly reusing the ncwd:with-defaults-mode type, because it guarantees that the definitions are entirely consistent, and I believe that it sufficient to address my concern.

     leaf includes-defaults {

         type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

     }

Balazs, is there some way, perhaps with a tweaked description, or assigned default value for the leaf includes-defaults leaf, that this could be made to work for you?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 September 2021 18:03
To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:15 AM Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

See below as BALAZS4

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. szeptember 10., péntek 4:57
To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 6:19 AM Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

See below as BALAZS3.

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 25., szerda 18:29
To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

Here is the latest text. It is inconsistent with RFC 6243, section 3.

IMO the subsections should be cited instead of the copy-and-change approach.

BALAZS3: The 6243 sections contain parts about “data retrieval” “capabilities” or “conceptual data nodes set by the server”

These parts are not relevant for many of the instance data use cases, so I would like to stick with including text here.

 

 

 

I guess I do not understand why the "with-defaults" leaf or at leaf "with-defaults-mode" typedef

cannot be used. IMO this is bad practice.  Applications that already know how to deal

with defaults according to RFC 6243 should be supported.

 

 

     leaf includes-defaults {

         type ncwd:with-defaults-mode;

     }

 

I do not see any text in this typedef that is server-specific.

Andy

BALAZS4:  While I generally agree that duplication is a bad practice, I avoided using ncwd:with-defaults-mode because:

·        It references RFC 6243; Section 3 which is full of inappropriate references (server, data retrieval, capabilities)
·        The typedef’s description is "Possible modes to report default data." However, in a number of use cases (e.g., UC2 Preloading default configuration data, UC7, U8) the data is not reported.
·        report-all-tagged description contains “XML attribute” which is incorrect if we use JSON encoding
·        I prefer to use the 2119 term SHALL, SHALL NOT in the enum descriptions.
Is this acceptable?
 

 

 

The data type I suggested does not have any references to section 3.

It does not have any MUST,SHOULD,MAY text at all.

The JSON encoding in RFC 7951 supports attributes.

 

IMO this leaf will cause a lot of confusion for users.

includes-defaults looks like with-defaults but it isn't.

It uses the exact same enums as with-defaults, but they mean different things.

 

 

Andy

 

 

   leaf includes-defaults {
         type enumeration {
           enum report-all {
             value 1;
             description
               "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
                 any default values.";
 
AB: should follow 6243, 3.1
           }
           enum trim {
             value 2;
             description
               "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
                 the actual value is the default value SHOULD
                 NOT be included.";
 
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.2
           }
           enum explicit {
             value 3;
             description
               "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
                 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
                 included. However, if the actual value was set by
                 a NETCONF client or other management application
                 by the way of an explicit management operation the
                 data node SHOULD be included.";
 
AB: should follow 6243, section 3.3
           }
         }
         description
           "As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data sets,
             thus any data node MAY be absent.
 
             Providing the instance-data-set intends to contain a
             full data set, this leaf specifies whether the data set
             includes data nodes that have a default defined and
             where the actual value is the same as the default value.
 
             Data nodes that have no default values should always
             be included.
             Data nodes that have a default value, but the actual
             value is not equal to the schema defined default
             should always be included.";
 
 
AB: The last paragraph should be removed or changed. Why are these nodes special?
Nodes that are actually present and do not contain the YANG default
are not relevant to this object.
BALAZS3: OK
 
         reference
           "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF";
       }

 

The best way to indicate a representation of a YANG default in the data set is to include

the "default" attribute in each default node. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6243#section-6

This actually works for explicit mode and leaf-lists (unlike the current solution).

BALAZS3: OK. Added report-all-tagged enum to includes-defaults leaf.

Here is the current proposed text:

------------------------------------------------------------

    leaf includes-defaults {

      type enumeration {

        enum report-all {

          value 1;

          description

            "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of

              any default values, if the data node

              is covered by the instance-data-set.";

        }

        enum report-all-tagged  {

          value 2;

          description

            "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of

              any default values if the data node

              is covered by the instance-data-set.

              Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL

              contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'";

        }       

        enum trim {

          value 3;

          description

            "Data nodes that have a default defined and where

              the actual value is equal to the schema default 

              value SHALL NOT be included.";

        }

        enum explicit {

          value 4;

          description

            "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the

              schema default value SHALL NOT be included.

              However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF

              client or other management application by the way

              of an explicit management operation, the data node

              SHALL be included, if the data node is covered by

              the instance-data-set.";

        }

      }

      description

        "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default

          data. This leaf indicates whether default data is

          included.

          

          As instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data

          sets: MAY NOT cover all data nodes. A leaf or

          leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set

          does not intend to include the data node independent

          of default handling.";

      reference

        "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF

         RFC 8040 :RESTCONF Protocol";

    }

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:41 AM Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

In the -17 I removed the default value for includes-defaults as you proposed.

 

I am not sure I understand the rest of the comments as instance-file-format does not use the concept of “basic-mode”. It has a single leaf to indicate what is the situation with defaults in the specific instance-data-set.

As this is not a live server request/reply situation we do not want to specify a basic and additional modes, we just want to specify the handling used for this specific instance data set.

 

Regards Balazs

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., hétfő 18:58
To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:17 AM Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Rob,

I think this won’t fly.

In sections 1.2 and 2 we state:

“Instance data files MAY contain partial data sets.”
Which is important for many use-cases.  This means you cannot say that a default value will or must be included, as they might be omitted because they are not part of the partial data set.
In a way it is difficult to separate between leaves that are missing because
-        They are not part of the partial data-set
-        They are omitted because they have the default value and one of the trim or explicit options is used
If this becomes important the report-all options shall be used.
 

 

 

I thought we already agreed there cannot be a default or there is no way to

represent "no defaults added".

 

Note that "report-all" is not useful if basic-mode=explicit, since a leaf reporting the YANG default

could be set by the client.  Only report-all-tagged will clearly identify defaults in this case.

 

Also note that if basic-mode=report-all then there will be no defaults ever reported.

This mode means the server does not consider any node to be a default and always returns

every node (if with-defaults used or not).

 

This is the reason I used the SHOULD word.
Regards Balazs

 

Andy

 

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. augusztus 23., hétfő 12:27
To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi Balazs, Andy, Netmod,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.  I would still like to strength the description of the defaults.  E.g., RFC 6243 uses MUSTs rather than SHOULDs.

 

Hence, I have generated some proposed alternative descriptions, that are somewhat stricter, but also more generically focussed only on the default values.

 

With these definitions, I think that we could define the “include-defaults” default value to be “explicit”, since if the leaf if not included, then I think that this effectively what the meaning would be anyway.

 

 

In particular, I would propose changing the descriptions as follows:

 

       leaf includes-defaults {

         type enumeration {

           enum report-all {

             value 1;

             description

               "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of

                 any default values.";

           }

           enum trim {

             value 2;

             description

               "Data nodes that have a default defined and where

                 the actual value is the default value SHOULD

                 NOT be included.";

           }

           enum explicit {

             value 3;

             description

               "Data nodes that have a default defined and where

                 the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be

                 included. However, if the actual value was set by

                 a NETCONF client or other management application

                 by the way of an explicit management operation the

                 data node SHOULD be included.";

           }

         }

      

Proposed:

 

       leaf includes-defaults {

         type enumeration {

           enum report-all {

             value 1;

             description

               "The instance data set includes all data nodes,

                including those that contain the schema default.”;

           }

           enum trim {

             value 2;

             description

               "The instance data set excludes all data nodes

                that contain the schema default.";

           }

           enum explicit {

             value 3;

             description

               "The instance data set may include some data nodes

                that match the schema default and may exclude some

                data nodes that match the schema default.”;

           }

         }

         description

           "This leaf provides an indication of how default data

            is presented within an instance data set, modelled on

            RFC 6243.

 

            Interpretation of the use of defaults depends on the

            context of what the instance data set represents.

 

            E.g., if the instance data set represents configuration,

            Then include-defaults aligns to the meaning of the

            default-handling basic modes in RFC 6243.  If the

            instance data set represents operational data from the

            operational state datastore [RFC 8342], then

            include-defaults aligns to the definition of that

            datastore in RFC 8342.”;

 

Would text along these lines work?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

From: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Sent: 28 July 2021 23:08
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hello Rob,

Removing the “default trim;” will address Andy’s comment.

 

Your in-use-values is very specific to one of the use-cases: reading/documenting operational values. It is not useful for the other use-cases. I think the “documenting operational datastore” use-case could be handled by indicating the includes-defaults=report-all. Case (i) would contain the value case (ii) will not.

Regards Balazs

 

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 2021. július 27., kedd 17:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi Andy, Balazs,

 

So, the reason that I want a flag to indicate whether default values are in use is because of this definition of operational in RFC 8342:

 

   Requests to retrieve nodes from <operational> always return the value

   in use if the node exists, regardless of any default value specified

   in the YANG module.  If no value is returned for a given node, then

   this implies that the node is not used by the device.

 

It was written this way because otherwise a consumer of operational data cannot differentiate between:

(i)               This value is not present because it matches the default value specified in the YANG module, and

(ii)              This value is not present because the server has failed to return it for some reason (e.g., perhaps the daemon that would have provided this value is down or not available, or perhaps it is a bug, or perhaps it is not implemented and is a missing deviation).

 

So, I think that in some cases, the absence of a data node does not necessarily mean that the default value is in effect, and I wanted the instance-data document to be able to contain and correctly report this data.

 

I think that this behaviour could be captured by a single leaf.  Another way of articulating this would be:

 

leaf in-use-values {

  type boolean;

  default false;

  description

    “Only if set to true, the absence of a value in the

     instance data for a given data node implies that the

    node is not used rather than implicitly taking the

     default value specified by any corresponding

    ‘default’ statement specified in the YANG schema.”;

}

 

With this, I’m not sure whether we need the “includes-default” leaf currently specified in the draft, but if we do, then I would think that leaf should be entirely optional, i.e., without the default “trim”.

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: 10 July 2021 17:41
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>; Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 5:23 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Andy,

 

Yes, when I suggested this, I was thinking that a boolean flag might be sufficient.  My point being that automatically filtering out default values isn’t always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

The solution is simple.

Get rid of the inappropriate "default trim" statement.

 

If the leaf is present then it identifies the basic-mode that was used to include defaults.

If not then the information is either not known, not applicable, or defaults were not added.

 

The "default" statement is a bug because there is no default basic-mode.

All of the basic-modes are in use in deployments and no camp has ever

been able to convince the others that theirs is right.

 

 

Andy

 

E.g., something along these lines:

 

leaf exclude-defaults {

  type boolean;

  default true;

  description

    “Can be used to reduce the size of the content data file.

 

      When unset or set to true, data nodes that have a default defined and

      where the actual value is the default value are excluded from the content

      data.

 

      When set to false, data nodes with default value are not filtered, and

      may appear in the content data.”

}

 

Would this satisfy your concern?

 

Regards,
Rob

 

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 08 July 2021 18:16
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] yang-instance-file include-defaults leaf

 

Hi,

 

The module has this object:

 

    leaf includes-defaults {
       type enumeration {
         enum report-all {
           value 1;
           description
             "All data nodes SHOULD be included independent of
               any default values.";
         }
         enum trim {
           value 2;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD
               NOT be included.";
         }
         enum explicit {
           value 3;
           description
             "Data nodes that have a default defined and where
               the actual value is the default value SHOULD NOT be
               included. However, if the actual value was set by
               a NETCONF client or other management application
               by the way of an explicit management operation the
               data node SHOULD be included.";
         }
       }
       default trim;
 

The draft is extremely server-centric, like most IETF standards, but this

leaf is too server-centric to ignore.

 

Consider the possibility that the source of the file is NOT a NETCONF server.

This data may not be known so the default of "trim" may not be correct.

 

IMO this leaf is noise because any tool that knows the schema will also

know the YANG defaults.  The solution is incomplete anyway because

the presence of a leaf that has a YANG default is not enough.

The  "report-all-tagged" mode must be used to identify defaults.

IMO this leaf should be removed, but at least add an enum called "unknown".

 

 

Andy

 

 


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--------------4B95D485018674D9922CBF51-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 04:55:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0AB3A2659; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:55:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <163179332327.22080.816143982970585999@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:55:23 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-19.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:55:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Instance Data File Format Authors : Balazs Lengyel Benoit Claise Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-19.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2021-09-16 Abstract: There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable. This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data, which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and annotates it with metadata. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-19 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-19 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Sep 17 01:50:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B40D3A0E4A for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 01:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.595 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.595 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, 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--_000_DM4PR11MB5438F34A93493555943C383FB5DD9DM4PR11MB5438namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 17 07:04:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642A73A1AA6; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:04:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: Kent Watsen , draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net, netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <163188748062.10062.13111908391323957480@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:04:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Last Call: (YANG Instance Data File Format) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:04:42 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Network Modeling WG (netmod) to consider the following document: - 'YANG Instance Data File Format' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2021-10-01. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable. This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data, which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and annotates it with metadata. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Fri Sep 17 19:10:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8983A20C5; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 19:10:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVs-Ekgx8QNK; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 19:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA7FF3A20C2; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 19:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml713-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4HBDkl1PbZz67gjx; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:08:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.153) by fraeml713-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 04:10:49 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:10:47 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:10:47 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: tom petch CC: 'Babel at IETF' , "'netmod@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address Thread-Index: AdesMZlN3Gm4X5rLSrqRYOuMUOaqNA== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:10:47 +0000 Message-ID: <59275ad2ed024760b5acc0414ed6e210@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for ip-address X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:10:55 -0000 Second, left field. when I first posted, I had great difficulty in specifyi= ng the e-mail addresses I was sending to (still do:-(. I included the docu= ment shepherd, and you because I knew what your address is and it is easy t= o type correctly:-) The addresses I might have included, but did not, wer= e your fellow author (who is now on the thread); and the WG Chairs, the add= ress for the I-D and perhaps the AD. I trust that these others will be inv= olved when needed. Tom Petch [Qin] I assume you will get bounced with "Too Many Recipients error". The w= ork around is to split recipient into several group and send email message = multiple times to each group. Or you reach a limit for sending email, this case is very rare.=20 Or your email client application refuses to work for some recipient's email= with specific ASCII character. I met this before. But again this is corner= case. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-09-21 We discussed how Packages should describe YANG mount points. Resulting not= es added to the issue tracker. We have mostly concluded on an approach, but= need to write up specific text for the draft: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/57 Assigned author for writing up specific text for issues: #29: TBD #30: Jason #32: TBD #38: Rob #57: TBD #103: Rob Other dangling action items: - Jason to update marked-up comments (Module Versioning) and send to Reshad - Reshad roll in Jason's comments once they are ready - Module Versioning: at least 1 person to carefully review diffs once Resha= d rolls in Jason's review comments - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/104 (my-module#3.2.3.yan= g). Joe to post proposal back to WG. - top down reviews for YANG Semver Next meeting: continue with issue #62 Jason ---------------------------------------------- Weekly webex call details: Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2021 from 8:00 AM to 10:= 00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 8:00 AM | (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 2 hrs https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) --_000_DM6PR08MB5084C0D547D45C5AF71B3B0D9BA19DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-09-21

 

We discussed how Packages should describe YANG mount= points.  Resulting notes added to the issue tracker. We have mostly c= oncluded on an approach, but need to write up specific text for the draft:<= o:p>

https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/57

 

Assigned author for writing up specific text for iss= ues:

#29: TBD

#30: Jason

#32: TBD

#38: Rob

#57: TBD

#103: Rob

 

Other dangling action items:

- Jason to update marked-up comments (Module Version= ing) and send to Reshad

- Reshad roll in Jason's comments once they are read= y

- Module Versioning: at least 1 person to carefully = review diffs once Reshad rolls in Jason's review comments

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/10= 4  (my-module#3.2.3.yang). Joe to post proposal back to WG.=

- top down reviews for YANG Semver

 

Next meeting: continue with issue #62

 

Jason

 

----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

Weekly webex call details:

Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630

Meeting password: semver?

Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2= 021 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

8:00 AM  |  (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US &= amp; Canada)  |  2 hrs

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebc= c37b8127c1244d244d2754

Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only)

+1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (U= S/Canada)

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Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:20:56 +0000 From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , 'tom petch' , 'Juergen Schoenwaelder' , 'Mahesh Jethanandani' CC: 'Babel at IETF' , "'netmod@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 Thread-Index: AQHXqUiEDT1SO2+3HkGPUisDdYR4/6ujfOXQgBSmHxA= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:20:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: att.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;att.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b853f537-56e8-4988-3cb5-08d981d2c8c5 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR08MB5707: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR08MB5084.namprd08.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b853f537-56e8-4988-3cb5-08d981d2c8c5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Sep 2021 16:20:56.0270 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vpme5I68dlUZqblGcldV5IlStthjR3y05DG/sQXtJDnczsFDNPNvfNRL4XhFW6R56spqs21F0Vag2lLP1fFdFQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR08MB5707 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:21:04 -0000 Hi all, Reserving a "magic value" like -1 may be workable, but it doesn't feel like= a terribly good fit into YANG. The rest of the range of integer values are= valid and it seems odd to just tack on a "-1". Why not just make the absence of the leaf mean "not applicable" or "not ava= ilable" or whatever you are thinking of encoding as "null" ? I've seen discussions where an SNMP MIB (which uses magic values like -1 or= 0) was mapped to YANG and the result was simply to map the -1 (or 0) to th= e "absence of the leaf" (especially for read only state). If it really is critical to distinguish these two cases (which I'm pretty d= oubtful of for an individual leaf like this), then I think at least an enum= more distinctly separates the valid range from the special "not applicable= " token: 1) leaf was filtered out due to AAA rules 2) leaf wasn't returned because it is not-applicable/not-available Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of STARK, BARBARA > H > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 9:52 AM > To: 'tom petch' ; 'Juergen Schoenwaelder' > ; 'Mahesh Jethanandani' > > Cc: 'Babel at IETF' ; 'netmod@ietf.org' > Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope I'm > > understanding where things are. Comments in-line. > > > > > Hi Mahesh, > > > > > > management interface usually do not change protocol semantics (for th= e > > > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know which > > > management interfaces control them and their peers). > > > > > > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, doe= s > > > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence > > > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or will > > > we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing > > > operational trouble? > > > > Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must not= be > > confused with NULL. > > I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to distinguish > between > > 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distinction mus= t > exist. > > Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction can be > used. It > > sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for handling th= is. > > Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid value of > zero to > > be repurposed to mean NULL. > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > Apologies for making a mess of raising this issue; I am struggling with > webmail > > and a PC that has a mind of its own such that I cannot send e-mails whe= re I > want > > to or even when I want to:-( > > > > Anyhow, I agree that the Information model makes it clear the NULL and > zero > > are different. YANG has no concept of NULL; some languages do, YANG > does > > not. This raises number of possibilities. > > > > One is to deviate from the Information Model and treat zero as NULL but= I > > would not expect that to be acceptable. > > > > Another it to modify the range by making uint16 into int16 and making a > > negative value represent NULL in this model. Again, I would not expect > that to > > be acceptable but you could make it a int32 or uint32 with a range > restriction > > such that one value means NULL.. > > > > Another is to make the objects a YANG union of uint16 and something els= e. > > YANG has a built-in type 'empty' which has no value(!) and so a union o= f > uint16 > > and empty is probably the closest YANG gets. A similar approach is a u= nion > of > > uint16 and boolean. My YANG is not up to the merits of the two > approaches. I > > have never been comfortable with 'empty' but there is plenty of it abou= t in > the > > IETF. By the same token, almost all models have a union in the shape of= an > ip > > address which is a union of ipv4 address and ipv6 address; a union is > something I > > am comfortable with. > > > > I do not know of an exact parallel to what you want to do. I do see 'n= ull' as > one > > value of the text string in an enumeration which is fine for enumeratio= ns! I > also > > see the choice/case construct used with one case having a YANG type > 'empty' > > which is perhaps the closest if you do not want to use a union. > > > > HTH > > > > Tom Petch >=20 > Hi Tom, > Thanks for making this an issue! I think it's important that we get it ri= ght. > This is something Mahesh and I have discussed several times (and we still > apparently didn't get it right). > As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 > meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The langua= ge > in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since thi= s > is how it's done in TR-181. > I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a > preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack o= f > YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG. = I > can only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range 0 = to > 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters. > Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have > expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of those = words. I > apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently clear. >=20 > Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like to > understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in the > information model was definitely intended to express the acceptability of > using this approach from a Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's ho= w > it would be done in TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with > YANG expertise? I think my preference would be to use this approach, sinc= e > it would provide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG > models. >=20 > Thanks again for raising this issue. > Barbara >=20 > > > /js > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads] > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> and it references an RFC that says: > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; > > > > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values fo= r > > > > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different data = type > > > > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. > > > > > > > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence > several > > > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If 0= is a > > > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same time. > > > > > > > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model > > > ietf- > > > babel-yang-model- > > > > > > 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04 > rPj > > > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meaning. > > > > > > > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and 'babel-route-calculated-met= ric' > > > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A no= n- > zero > > > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently advertised= . > > > > > > > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'babel-exp-ucast-hello- > seqno' a > > > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicast = hello > > packets > > > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast pack= ets > is > > not > > > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the sequenc= e > number > > > cannot be a 0. > > > > > > > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value of NULL or 0 is use= d to > > > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value reflect= s the > > current > > > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not explic= it, it > also > > > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a valu= e. > > > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to indic= ate > > > > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve a= nd > > > > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. > > > > > > > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these leaf= s are > not > > > set or the particular attribute is not enabled. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. > Skimming > > > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: > > > > > > > > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data > > > > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16). > > > > > > > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned 16-= bit > > > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate that= a > > > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text i= n > RFC > > > > > 9046. > > > > RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do > whatever > > they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of 0 and= a > NULL > > value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed integer f= or > these > > parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and 0 to 2^16 represent actua= l > > values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an unsig= ned > > integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data model= ing > > rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *are* ab= le > to > > distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value variable --= so > their > > GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply use an uns= igned > > integer. > > > > Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their own > mechanisms > > for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for RFC904= 6 > to be > > proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between null > and 0. > > Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the native > variable is > > a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate null as some= thing > > distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that should be accomplish= ed. > The > > data model needs to ensure this distinction exists using whatever metho= d > makes > > sense or whatever convention exists for that data modeling language. > > Barbara > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmo > d__; > > !!BhdT!z9HMtl5ev04-D11rq22Qye-5_sscMd1C- > > sWwIDBqeMrQ2tPPXauYRZI_wB2KAA$ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Sep 27 10:14:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF5A3A0CFD for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:14:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id io6_OagxWEYT for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 385213A0CF8 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id b20so80813566lfv.3 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:14:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5FzNFvSszW5akgoMsyGG5wqycpQtXyNlmPXHuqjamnM=; b=vCSygUsqkb1N3J5XBbhFcj3ownk3zsZ9xs/Jp96LTiPvCtWzZ5N9XBj8G/3ViBPzie vEBjw5TvmKO3xDqW/RSM+ZoXyQ1HdGVxWpA+Y1yUcJ0bDNenqE2PmY8kaUqdgCqQX4Hx wYhrMRmgNn3PSbPc4pv6MReq6iIRD5YgW8vv1/R136guan61J6Ns+Xnq1dstzUIrJSOK lBd8cSVMz2sZ6+5EFtVa4yz9PQz3xJk/d3DSvmLM+46cb6gVKQcuIlw0eSsYW8cGUzP8 a7lO1fqqQ+0iwW5GjaUVmCuF6dT8Y6zTlezuFA4YVmtVvAoaxeivHSfWiQWrF1Zt7uIo 2AuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5FzNFvSszW5akgoMsyGG5wqycpQtXyNlmPXHuqjamnM=; b=G1bo3/bkRrjR3u8INo8RswzJOpMwQuyBOiJHHHnX85rz6AQhGoPvdf9bd57Tii55KB JN+5sJnXA48ejhtzE3FoTJag/46Qmltok9NOy+0PhQOcXJ4+zqZo+X92oA2IN3CpOGEb Q5xFoPiECv90QcU+J0ChXs8u60NZ0RkOfXaSJ6xOQ17Ut5B79SkS6hggAiacYpWWvOBM JnTEs3MJh06WitSNfTyNQMV/a2Q6p4RVip91k1Bdq9X6goDNhd6VbJj7O1hkSLlBz5Fl DFlYW4XuUq5GjF8O/VG2Pu7wKZ5ZkVsrlI+FthiixANRMhhqZPzkjp8ZU3Vs2eR+zSkK 8jPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533rpsBxcrF91vjBazTaYou0Eb1SHo+E5btWZNcGD70NXUVDGv1v f5sHJLK4JdANsweJexua+WDp72J8ygo5baGMjKmJ8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5I0Mg+4Wa75y7p4QwZ9RU8BnSOMgwIKolL9YPQiJCYjamzl+6SIclsOFhlBYfWTGl945QsdeuHOA4REudLbM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a6a4:: with SMTP id q36mr985300lje.120.1632762850832; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:14:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:13:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , tom petch , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Mahesh Jethanandani , "netmod@ietf.org" , Babel at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba06df05ccfd3996" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:14:21 -0000 --000000000000ba06df05ccfd3996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:21 AM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Reserving a "magic value" like -1 may be workable, but it doesn't feel > like a terribly good fit into YANG. The rest of the range of integer valu= es > are valid and it seems odd to just tack on a "-1". > > Why not just make the absence of the leaf mean "not applicable" or "not > available" or whatever you are thinking of encoding as "null" ? > > I've seen discussions where an SNMP MIB (which uses magic values like -1 > or 0) was mapped to YANG and the result was simply to map the -1 (or 0) t= o > the "absence of the leaf" (especially for read only state). > > If it really is critical to distinguish these two cases (which I'm pretty > doubtful of for an individual leaf like this), then I think at least an > enum more distinctly separates the valid range from the special "not > applicable" token: > 1) leaf was filtered out due to AAA rules > 2) leaf wasn't returned because it is not-applicable/not-available > > IMO this is not a real problem. There is an assumption that access control is setup correctly. The NACM default is to allow all reads so explicit rules are needed to remove access to config=3Dfalse data nodes. It is clearly better to omit nodes rather than return them with "not set" indications. This reduced the amount of data transferred which may matter to the operator. SNMP GetNext and GetBulk do not handle missing nodes well at all, so it became common practice to return 0 or -1, etc. to simplify client processing of these operations. None of the YANG-based protocols have this problem. > Jason > Andy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod On Behalf Of STARK, BARBARA > > H > > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 9:52 AM > > To: 'tom petch' ; 'Juergen Schoenwaelder' > > ; 'Mahesh Jethanandani' > > > > Cc: 'Babel at IETF' ; 'netmod@ietf.org' > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 > > > > > > > > > I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope I'm > > > understanding where things are. Comments in-line. > > > > > > > Hi Mahesh, > > > > > > > > management interface usually do not change protocol semantics (for > the > > > > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know which > > > > management interfaces control them and their peers). > > > > > > > > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If not, > does > > > > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the sequence > > > > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on or wil= l > > > > we see "old" and "updated" implementations in the wild causing > > > > operational trouble? > > > > > > Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that must > not be > > > confused with NULL. > > > I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to distinguish > > between > > > 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distinction > must > > exist. > > > Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction can b= e > > used. It > > > sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for handling > this. > > > Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid value o= f > > zero to > > > be repurposed to mean NULL. > > > > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > > > Apologies for making a mess of raising this issue; I am struggling wi= th > > webmail > > > and a PC that has a mind of its own such that I cannot send e-mails > where I > > want > > > to or even when I want to:-( > > > > > > Anyhow, I agree that the Information model makes it clear the NULL an= d > > zero > > > are different. YANG has no concept of NULL; some languages do, YANG > > does > > > not. This raises number of possibilities. > > > > > > One is to deviate from the Information Model and treat zero as NULL > but I > > > would not expect that to be acceptable. > > > > > > Another it to modify the range by making uint16 into int16 and making= a > > > negative value represent NULL in this model. Again, I would not expe= ct > > that to > > > be acceptable but you could make it a int32 or uint32 with a range > > restriction > > > such that one value means NULL.. > > > > > > Another is to make the objects a YANG union of uint16 and something > else. > > > YANG has a built-in type 'empty' which has no value(!) and so a union > of > > uint16 > > > and empty is probably the closest YANG gets. A similar approach is a > union > > of > > > uint16 and boolean. My YANG is not up to the merits of the two > > approaches. I > > > have never been comfortable with 'empty' but there is plenty of it > about in > > the > > > IETF. By the same token, almost all models have a union in the shape > of an > > ip > > > address which is a union of ipv4 address and ipv6 address; a union is > > something I > > > am comfortable with. > > > > > > I do not know of an exact parallel to what you want to do. I do see > 'null' as > > one > > > value of the text string in an enumeration which is fine for > enumerations! I > > also > > > see the choice/case construct used with one case having a YANG type > > 'empty' > > > which is perhaps the closest if you do not want to use a union. > > > > > > HTH > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > Hi Tom, > > Thanks for making this an issue! I think it's important that we get it > right. > > This is something Mahesh and I have discussed several times (and we sti= ll > > apparently didn't get it right). > > As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range -1:65535 with -1 > > meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The > language > > in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since > this > > is how it's done in TR-181. > > I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to have a > > preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lack > of > > YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to model this in YANG= . > I > > can only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range = 0 > to > > 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters. > > Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to have > > expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of thos= e > words. I > > apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently clear. > > > > Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd like to > > understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in t= he > > information model was definitely intended to express the acceptability = of > > using this approach from a Babel WG perspective (because I knew that's > how > > it would be done in TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with > > YANG expertise? I think my preference would be to use this approach, > since > > it would provide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG > > models. > > > > Thanks again for raising this issue. > > Barbara > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote= : > > > > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threads] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> and it references an RFC that says: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is a 16-bit unsigned integer; > > > > > >> if the data model uses zero (0) to represent NULL values > for > > > > > >> unsigned integers, the data model MAY use a different dat= a > type > > > > > >> that allows differentiation between zero (0) and NULL. > > > > > > > > > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats this sentence > > several > > > > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intended meaning. If > 0 is a > > > > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "NULL" at the same tim= e. > > > > > > > > > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model > > > > > ietf- > > > > babel-yang-model- > > > > > > > > > 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04 > > rPj > > > > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meaning. > > > > > > > > > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and > 'babel-route-calculated-metric' > > > > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT received. A > non- > > zero > > > > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently > advertised. > > > > > > > > > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'babel-exp-ucast-hello- > > seqno' a > > > > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or unicas= t > hello > > > packets > > > > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/unicast > packets > > is > > > not > > > > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that the > sequence > > number > > > > cannot be a 0. > > > > > > > > > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value of NULL or 0 is > used to > > > > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero value > reflects the > > > current > > > > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although not > explicit, it > > also > > > > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do not have a > value. > > > > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special value to > indicate > > > > > > that there is no value, then you have design for it and reserve > and > > > > > > set aside a special value from the number space or use a union. > > > > > > > > > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate that these > leafs are > > not > > > > set or the particular attribute is not enabled. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequence numbers. > > Skimming > > > > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit integers: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a number of Babel data > > > > > > structures, and they are interpreted as integers modulo 2^(16= ). > > > > > > > > > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are an unsigned > 16-bit > > > > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 to indicate > that a > > > > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really might be the text > in > > RFC > > > > > > 9046. > > > > > > RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do > > whatever > > > they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of 0 > and a > > NULL > > > value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed integer > for > > these > > > parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and 0 to 2^16 represent > actual > > > values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an > unsigned > > > integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data > modeling > > > rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *are* > able > > to > > > distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value variable > -- so > > their > > > GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply use an > unsigned > > > integer. > > > > > > Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their own > > mechanisms > > > for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for > RFC9046 > > to be > > > proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between null > > and 0. > > > Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the native > > variable is > > > a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate null as > something > > > distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that should be > accomplished. > > The > > > data model needs to ensure this distinction exists using whatever > method > > makes > > > sense or whatever convention exists for that data modeling language. > > > Barbara > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmo > > d__; > > > !!BhdT!z9HMtl5ev04-D11rq22Qye-5_sscMd1C- > > > sWwIDBqeMrQ2tPPXauYRZI_wB2KAA$ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000ba06df05ccfd3996 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 9:21 AM Stern= e, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <= jason.sterne@nokia.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Reserving a "magic value" like -1 may be workable, but it doesn&#= 39;t feel like a terribly good fit into YANG. The rest of the range of inte= ger values are valid and it seems odd to just tack on a "-1".

Why not just make the absence of the leaf mean "not applicable" o= r "not available" or whatever you are thinking of encoding as &qu= ot;null" ?

I've seen discussions where an SNMP MIB (which uses magic values like -= 1 or 0) was mapped to YANG and the result was simply to map the -1 (or 0) t= o the "absence of the leaf" (especially for read only state).

If it really is critical to distinguish these two cases (which I'm pret= ty doubtful of for an individual leaf like this), then I think at least an = enum more distinctly separates the valid range from the special "not a= pplicable" token:
1) leaf was filtered out due to AAA rules
2) leaf wasn't returned because it is not-applicable/not-available



IMO this is not a real = problem.
There is an assumption that access control is setup corr= ectly.
The NACM default is to allow all reads so explicit rules a= re needed
to remove access to config=3Dfalse data nodes.

It is clearly better to omit nodes rather than return them= with "not set" indications.
This reduced the amount of= data transferred which may matter to the operator.

SNMP GetNext and GetBulk do not handle missing nodes well at all, so it b= ecame
common practice to return 0 or -1, etc. to simplify client = processing of these operations.
None of the YANG-based protocols = have this problem.
=C2=A0
Jason

Andy
=C2=A0

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of STARK, BARBARA
> H
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 9:52 AM
> To: 'tom petch' <ietfc@btconnect.com>; 'Juergen Schoenwaelder'=
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; 'Mahesh Jethanand= ani'
> <mjeth= anandani@gmail.com>
> Cc: 'Babel at IETF' <babel@ietf.org>; 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16
>
>
>
> > I seem to be coming into this discussion in the middle, so I hope= I'm
> > understanding where things are. Comments in-line.
> >
> > > Hi Mahesh,
> > >
> > > management interface usually do not change protocol semantic= s (for the
> > > simple reason that protocol engines do not necessarily know = which
> > > management interfaces control them and their peers).
> > >
> > > Does the Babel RFC reserve the special sequence number 0? If= not, does
> > > this document formally update the Babel RFC to reserve the s= equence
> > > number 0? And will implementations and deployments follow on= or will
> > > we see "old" and "updated" implementatio= ns in the wild causing
> > > operational trouble?
> >
> > Yes, the Babel RFC makes it clear that 0 is a valid value that mu= st not be
> > confused with NULL.
> > I have no idea what conventions exist for a YANG model to disting= uish
> between
> > 0 and NULL in such cases, but merely expressed that the distincti= on must
> exist.
> > Whatever conventions exist within YANG to make this distinction c= an be
> used. It
> > sounded from Tom's email that several conventions exist for h= andling this.
> > Under no circumstances should this YANG model allow the valid val= ue of
> zero to
> > be repurposed to mean NULL.
> >
> > <tp>
> > Barbara,
> >
> > Apologies for making a mess of raising this issue; I am strugglin= g with
> webmail
> > and a PC that has a mind of its own such that I cannot send e-mai= ls where I
> want
> > to or even when I want to:-(
> >
> > Anyhow, I agree that the Information model makes it clear the NUL= L and
> zero
> > are different.=C2=A0 YANG has no concept of NULL; some languages = do, YANG
> does
> > not.=C2=A0 This raises=C2=A0 number of possibilities.
> >
> > One is to deviate from the Information Model and treat zero as NU= LL but I
> > would not expect that to be acceptable.
> >
> > Another it to modify the range by making uint16 into int16 and ma= king a
> > negative value represent NULL in this model.=C2=A0 Again, I would= not expect
> that to
> > be acceptable but you could make it a int32 or uint32 with a rang= e
> restriction
> > such that one value means NULL..
> >
> > Another is to make the objects a YANG union of uint16 and somethi= ng else.
> > YANG has a built-in type 'empty' which has no value(!) an= d so a union of
> uint16
> > and empty is probably the closest YANG gets.=C2=A0 A similar appr= oach is a union
> of
> > uint16 and boolean.=C2=A0 My YANG is not up to the merits of the = two
> approaches.=C2=A0 I
> > have never been comfortable with 'empty' but there is ple= nty of it about in
> the
> > IETF. By the same token, almost all models have a union in the sh= ape of an
> ip
> > address which is a union of ipv4 address and ipv6 address; a unio= n is
> something I
> > am comfortable with.
> >
> > I do not know of an exact parallel to what you want to do.=C2=A0 = I do see 'null' as
> one
> > value of the text string in an enumeration which is fine for enum= erations!=C2=A0 I
> also
> > see the choice/case construct used with one case having a YANG ty= pe
> 'empty'
> > which is perhaps the closest if you do not want to use a union. > >
> > HTH
> >
> > Tom Petch
>
> Hi Tom,
> Thanks for making this an issue! I think it's important that we ge= t it right.
> This is something Mahesh and I have discussed several times (and we st= ill
> apparently didn't get it right).
> As I mentioned, BBF TR-181 uses int with range=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 -1:65535 with -1
> meaning NULL. So I certainly have no issue with that approach. The lan= guage
> in RFC9046 was intended to make sure this approach was allowed, since = this
> is how it's done in TR-181.
> I guess I am a bit surprised to learn that YANG doesn't seem to ha= ve a
> preferred way to handle this. Unfortunately, given my considerable lac= k of
> YANG expertise, I can't recommend the "right" way to mod= el this in YANG. I
> can only insist that the model be able to express a value in the range= 0 to
> 2^16 and NULL value for these parameters.
> Independent of the fact that the words in RFC9046 don't seem to ha= ve
> expressed this perfectly clearly, that is absolutely the intent of tho= se words. I
> apologize that the RFC9046 words don't seem to be sufficiently cle= ar.
>
> Since you do mention the possibility of using -1 for NULL, I'd lik= e to
> understand who might find this approach unacceptable? The language in = the
> information model was definitely intended to express the acceptability= of
> using this approach from a Babel WG perspective (because I knew that&#= 39;s how
> it would be done in TR-181). Would this be unacceptable to people with=
> YANG expertise? I think my preference would be to use this approach, s= ince
> it would provide additional consistency between the TR-181 and YANG > models.
>
> Thanks again for raising this issue.
> Barbara
>
> > > /js
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:49:33PM -0700, Mahesh Jethanandan= i wrote:
> > > > [Bringing in babel WG, instead of maintaining two threa= ds]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:09 PM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6= nw=C3=A4lder
> > > <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 01:40:03PM -0400, Lou Berg= er wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> and it references an RFC that says:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is a 16-bit unsigned = integer;
> > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if the data model uses zer= o (0) to represent NULL values for
> > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 unsigned integers, the dat= a model MAY use a different data type
> > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that allows differentiatio= n between zero (0) and NULL.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are talking about RFC 9046? RFC 9046 repeats th= is sentence
> several
> > > > > times but I find it difficult to infer the intende= d meaning. If 0 is a
> > > > > legal value, you can't have it represent "= ;NULL" at the same time.
> > > >
> > > > There are five definitions in the Babel YANG model
> > > <https://urldefe= nse.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-
> ietf-
> > > babel-yang-model-
> > >
> >
> 11.html__;!!BhdT!w6VP0VXwBo8HQB7xl29xPqAxO7zHbtal44Pwbxrh6lIs8a04
> rPj
> > > 0rzZ_DACdBQ$ > that use NULL to represent a special meani= ng.
> > > >
> > > > With 'babel-route-received-metric', and 'ba= bel-route-calculated-metric'
> > > values use NULL or 0 to represent that a route was NOT recei= ved. A non-
> zero
> > > value indicates that a route was received and subsequently a= dvertised.
> > > >
> > > > With 'babel-expo-mcast-hello-seqno', and 'b= abel-exp-ucast-hello-
> seqno' a
> > > value of NULL or 0 is used to represent that a multicast, or= unicast hello
> > packets
> > > respectively are NOT expected or processing of multicast/uni= cast packets
> is
> > not
> > > enabled. Although not explicit stated, it also means that th= e sequence
> number
> > > cannot be a 0.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, with 'babel-ucast-hello-seqno' a value= of NULL or 0 is used to
> > > represent a unicast hello is not being sent. A non-zero valu= e reflects the
> > current
> > > sequence number in use for unicast hellos. Again, although n= ot explicit, it
> also
> > > means that the sequence number cannot be a 0.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In YANG, we tend to not instantiate leafs that do = not have a value.
> > > > > Anyway, if a YANG author wants to report a special= value to indicate
> > > > > that there is no value, then you have design for i= t and reserve and
> > > > > set aside a special value from the number space or= use a union.
> > > >
> > > > This YANG model reserves the value of 0 to indicate tha= t these leafs are
> not
> > > set or the particular attribute is not enabled.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > RFC 9046 uses the same text for things like sequen= ce numbers.
> Skimming
> > > > > RFC 8966, it seems sequence numbers are 16-bit int= egers:
> > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sequence numbers (seqnos) appear in a = number of Babel data
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0structures, and they are interpreted a= s integers modulo 2^(16).
> > > > >
> > > > > The text in the context makes me believe they are = an unsigned 16-bit
> > > > > integers. If so, there simply is no way to use 0 t= o indicate that a
> > > > > sequence number is absent. The problem really migh= t be the text in
> RFC
> > > > > 9046.
> >
> > RFC9046 text is intended to allow and encourage data models to do=
> whatever
> > they need to do to ensure they can distinguish between a value of= 0 and a
> NULL
> > value. For example, in BBF TR-181 data model, we use a signed int= eger for
> these
> > parameters, where "-1" means "null value" and= 0 to 2^16 represent actual
> > values. This use of -1 and a signed integer to convey NULL for an= unsigned
> > integer is a convention that has long been defined in TR-181 data= modeling
> > rules. OTOH, Babel implementations written in languages like C *a= re* able
> to
> > distinguish between a zero-length variable and a zero-value varia= ble -- so
> their
> > GUIs have no difficulty with this distinction and can simply use = an unsigned
> > integer.
> >
> > Different data modeling languages are likely to each have their o= wn
> mechanisms
> > for handling this -- which means it would have been improper for = RFC9046
> to be
> > proscriptive about *how* a data model should distinguish between = null
> and 0.
> > Therefore, the text in RFC9046 merely states that although the na= tive
> variable is
> > a 16-bit unsigned integer, it must be possible to indicate null a= s something
> > distinct from 0. RFC9046 does not dictate how that should be acco= mplished.
> The
> > data model needs to ensure this distinction exists using whatever= method
> makes
> > sense or whatever convention exists for that data modeling langua= ge.
> > Barbara
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.= org
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v= 3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmo
> d__;
> > !!BhdT!z9HMtl5ev04-D11rq22Qye-5_sscMd1C-
> > sWwIDBqeMrQ2tPPXauYRZI_wB2KAA$
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
--000000000000ba06df05ccfd3996-- From nobody Mon Sep 27 10:42:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31433A0EC9 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pPhSXMPtb-Lf for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-f179.google.com (mail-pf1-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF7863A0EBD for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-f179.google.com with SMTP id g2so12442892pfc.6 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=r7D1CU9aA+eG+U0Bdp1u/O9WbZA/y3dFkeZ18pN+NuM=; b=Ux3JwzHHuRvDmv2XuHbIqR6zRsO0MqingtSa1/H+j7nM3mbX82rTc5fU4JkeQ8aIfD suW1G2JMdPoSnn5HDUeMrErZY6LRhXN72SYsi2hT83Ghlmx3NVlB8ofe9fDRfBn4B5cp pzrbh+s0sJkoOZE01euacb1x0BckE+ZBRRRSksUbOO0XgBJ1pkRQQWGA/0p8q2XquuuR mmUr6sk8ivL2VsMrAbgyFswEgQDDeFSYrCmu+HMZU7uOrK5gj+FJpYlVxena56qpEa48 Eddf2Wbvtk8abM0zYFY0LMR95eQJjZhLdcMIMphuDybQcMb+ETaVB5iTdxKN4odfDdIu djGA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tAWEuh1jqhUxha/PZZv9TLFqM6yPxn5a9WRdX/kto0Mqw7k+l LYjEk06+ORbX2x/YHC6Y01Oe/O1YIGQIAg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypjMfXsrW7f51K6R2Gt6u7Bhea1yI7Kal6aKGpvUJ5GUrKhkNi+Pr8VL5+9iqyqV48mkUECg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:590e:: with SMTP id n14mr755893pgb.434.1632764559201; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:646:9300:112b:cc14:7525:6bac:92d4? ([2601:646:9300:112b:cc14:7525:6bac:92d4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u8sm5871784pgf.78.2021.09.27.10.42.38 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:38 -0700 (PDT) To: netmod@ietf.org References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <62ce9373-1bf5-1fb4-1dda-e441f67db0d2@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:42:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:42:45 -0000 Hi - On 2021-09-27 10:13 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: ... > SNMP GetNext and GetBulk do not handle missing nodes well at all, so it > became > common practice to return 0 or -1, etc. to simplify client processing of > these operations. > None of the YANG-based protocols have this problem. In what way would "missing node" processing be substantially different between the two protocol families? In both cases the server locator methods need to be able to be able to skip over "not present" instances, and will get messy if the instrumented code has adopted the otherwise tidier paradigm of row/instance-wise registration rather than a general access method for all instances of the class. For the client I can't see any substantial difference at all between needs to happen to process the results correctly. That said, in my non-YANG experience it's a lot cleaner to generate code to handle sentinel values (and a lot harder for implementers to ignore them) than it is to assign ambiguous semantics to "missing data" cases. Randy From nobody Mon Sep 27 11:36:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED583A136F for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:36:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTugRt4xCT1U for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 517873A13E9 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id y28so81067397lfb.0 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9RkvR3lSJLrYuOeeerrLfd0Nml1mCGtiXFF2+Kd8KdE=; b=NzLTNL81TKeUEW5/As1wHr0RznX8ae1LYrIz/DQ33mNjIv4PnB2Zhp7BD7dN11x7ha M4kzo37CJNmMA2SEd5Sq1XU7KJbAh/8A2j5vIKsnkYiPRvHaX6bIzQpvRlP83AQjoSjE +PCYqt/VOXmyt/4hcZ1ElPqUAC5BzhRq51qtRW/Xt0OCm/B9tXI6E8e+NabD5fNZppOJ NULdfDXdL8JyPrSwThKZbUTuEY1jZQ1eXAWplVa/YrdZaYjdN7d7FtJkualYnvTuwIxq mjYeGqJsi9FqtIG9JZECnYhDOYXJT4jXxLEw9+xUWaXt/1PeVQ3eqcfZFs61v8Vi21zc J9vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9RkvR3lSJLrYuOeeerrLfd0Nml1mCGtiXFF2+Kd8KdE=; b=V0B4tY6DwEB2Fz8loLVdRpzZ1wv6kUHQwvmLr/2Xf7XOagCIrlHTTa1FEC5cmQWa+7 FJ6DRjt3xpYeDKCpw/KeIh2Ye+bwCh1KIxsYXfLkVMPD7DP/0k76EHR53AOMb3UDPG/M w0wEb+rhZ/mf7MnD5QjpY33ehYnCgwJB3nE1NMpRyTAjosZjKSTaxObyNjj871eOWjSn QTolTsvm/06H7IbyMI7kArttNLauk5Hk1th/0z6xBbHI82ek1ldDASJ4gd5IEXoTVwMf Pvb/UTuuPNmJzuWbDQg19SVBulY8U0by0f2/d7yoDZekY5GpsGKsjfDc2juAKz8/5LMz 9+Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fUFtbRzzJQDXcP3oKE+VghSncPlJlzLrt+0NCpK03FAHS+GvA Q5ZOzFhfyD45c6PLERgRoy8lAXK13iTV8LSHyeYB4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3lbtdsCzdiRyNIoD75n0HqKovygwKkmNIlQ1dGxLvLd3ENSnt+lTKosB05uU8sp40ENA20pFDZ51B0x4RIlY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a6a4:: with SMTP id q36mr1363356lje.120.1632767759406; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:35:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <62ce9373-1bf5-1fb4-1dda-e441f67db0d2@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <62ce9373-1bf5-1fb4-1dda-e441f67db0d2@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:35:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cf78505ccfe5e32" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:36:08 -0000 --0000000000004cf78505ccfe5e32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > On 2021-09-27 10:13 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > ... > > SNMP GetNext and GetBulk do not handle missing nodes well at all, so it > > became > > common practice to return 0 or -1, etc. to simplify client processing of > > these operations. > > None of the YANG-based protocols have this problem. > > In what way would "missing node" processing be substantially different > between the two protocol families? In both cases the server locator > methods need to be able to be able to skip over "not present" instances, > and will get messy if the instrumented code has adopted the otherwise > tidier paradigm of row/instance-wise registration rather than a general > access method for all instances of the class. For the client I can't > see any substantial difference at all between needs to happen to process > the results correctly. > > NETCONF and RESTCONF do not have "row skew" problems. They return subtrees, not individual varbinds like SNMP. Retrieving a "table row" in SNMP is much more complicated when some columns are unimplemented. A YANG subtree includes all the data the client is allowed to view, including augmenting nodes. That said, in my non-YANG experience it's a lot cleaner to generate code > to handle sentinel values (and a lot harder for implementers to ignore > them) than it is to assign ambiguous semantics to "missing data" cases. > > Randy > > Andy > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000004cf78505ccfe5e32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Rand= y Presuhn <randy_pr= esuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

On 2021-09-27 10:13 AM, Andy Bierman wrote:
...
> SNMP GetNext and GetBulk do not handle missing nodes well at all, so i= t
> became
> common practice to return 0 or -1, etc. to simplify client processing = of
> these operations.
> None of the YANG-based protocols have this problem.

In what way would "missing node" processing be substantially diff= erent
between the two protocol families?=C2=A0 In both cases the server locator methods need to be able to be able to skip over "not present" ins= tances,
and will get messy if the instrumented code has adopted the otherwise
tidier paradigm of row/instance-wise registration rather than a general
access method for all instances of the class.=C2=A0 For the client I can= 9;t
see any substantial difference at all between needs to happen to process the results correctly.


NETCONF and RESTCONF do not have "= ;row skew" problems.
They return subtrees, not individual va= rbinds like SNMP.
Retrieving a "table row" in SNMP is m= uch more complicated when some
columns are unimplemented. A YANG = subtree includes all the data the
client is allowed to view, incl= uding augmenting nodes.

That said, in my non-YANG experience it's a lot cleaner to generate cod= e
to handle sentinel values (and a lot harder for implementers to ignore
them) than it is to assign ambiguous semantics to "missing data" = cases.

Randy


Andy
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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([2601:646:9300:112b:cc14:7525:6bac:92d4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 26sm22360691pgx.72.2021.09.27.12.42.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) To: NetMod WG References: <20210910121430.kofyvd2q3ludm2pk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210910200902.bic4rhyhp75bgsjz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20210913200455.xot7lihpmqiemm5c@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <62ce9373-1bf5-1fb4-1dda-e441f67db0d2@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:42:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [babel] NULL value for uint16 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 19:42:42 -0000 Hi - On 2021-09-27 11:35 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Randy Presuhn > > wrote: > > Hi - > > On 2021-09-27 10:13 AM, Andy Bierman wrote: > ... > > SNMP GetNext and GetBulk do not handle missing nodes well at all, > so it > > became > > common practice to return 0 or -1, etc. to simplify client > processing of > > these operations. > > None of the YANG-based protocols have this problem. > > In what way would "missing node" processing be substantially different > between the two protocol families?  In both cases the server locator > methods need to be able to be able to skip over "not present" instances, > and will get messy if the instrumented code has adopted the otherwise > tidier paradigm of row/instance-wise registration rather than a general > access method for all instances of the class.  For the client I can't > see any substantial difference at all between needs to happen to process > the results correctly. > > > NETCONF and RESTCONF do not have "row skew" problems. > They return subtrees, not individual varbinds like SNMP. That doesn't change anything for the client or the server. In both cases the implementation needs to deal with missing values. (If client code isn't looking at individual varbind index values in the response to Get-Bulk or Get-Next and somehow assumes that there's any assurance they'd belong to "the same row", the developer has yet to earn the title of "rookie" and should be sentenced to reviewing COBOL accounting software until they repent.) > Retrieving a "table row" in SNMP is much more complicated when some > columns are unimplemented. That is highly dependent on the tools one is using. In the code base I know most intimately, no special code (no code at all!) is needed for unimplemented columns. Where it gets interesting is where there are "holes" in one or more columns - that is, the sets of rows represented in the various columns making up a table do not have the same index value tuples. I see two main sub-cases: where there is a user-provided locator function for rows or instances, and where rows have been registered individually with the infrastructure. In the former case, "holes" are trivial - the locator skips over any holes, because they don't exist. The latter case requires more developer work. From the perspective of generating code to grab values from instrumentation according to a mapping defined in some IDL, there should be little difference between SNMP-ish and YANG-ish protocols, particularly if the information models and the implementation architecture of the instrumented code are reasonably coherent. (I know that last bit is sometimes a big assumption.) > A YANG subtree includes all the data the > client is allowed to view, including augmenting nodes. That's essentially how subagent registration protocols like DPI, SMUX and AgentX work. Yes, the object-disoriented approach of Get-Next and Get-Bulk means that lots of stuff irrelevant to the intent of the query will fly around, both in the subagent protocol as well as the SNMP, especially with quirky, fine-grained configurations of VACM. But that does not require the instrumented code to adopted a similarly scattered implementation strategy. The job of automatically- generated glue code and infrastructure is to provide the adaptation between the instrumented implementation, a hopefully somewhat coherent information model, and the oddities of SNMP protocol. If the developer has to spend much time worrying about the quirks of a management protocol, the tools aren't doing their job. > That said, in my non-YANG experience it's a lot cleaner to generate code > to handle sentinel values (and a lot harder for implementers to ignore > them) than it is to assign ambiguous semantics to "missing data" cases. ... But back to the original issue: In cases like the one under discussion, the information element in question is *not* absent in the implementation. Instead, it has a sentinel value chosen to distinguish one or more interesting situations from the range of "normal" values suitable for use in other calculations. It seems to me that using explicit sentinel values in the model (with explicit labeling of their semantics) is a more accurate reflection of both the typical implementation strategies as well as providing a more direct way to communicate the model semantics and avoids introducing ambiguity. Randy From nobody Mon Sep 27 18:59:27 2021 Return-Path: <0100017c2a20afb6-be1f5aef-522a-4ef8-987c-e35b7b88b48c-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1EF3A106A for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjZ3XKu2_JwA for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-33.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-33.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0238F3A1069 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:59:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1632794358; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:To:Feedback-ID; bh=957lz7QVdycBZzOegzktCdxg8pj7qT/cBQ/aLitWGtI=; b=gGnZZj27Ye+XVp1veHuztYevVSyATDvbHQb+mKCl6RZK96AKKi+cabrfdAHMMA6W NadZlwbOZVVNvX/uVelDS1G6eOLH+ZtxyZUbxQm9VYqJTQudQ4uKF2OsuHsnsVMvKja gL6ud14ATjNs0BJuEJzue0pyNR0ewYimGZ9vcMFk= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-ID: <0100017c2a20afb6-be1f5aef-522a-4ef8-987c-e35b7b88b48c-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 01:59:18 +0000 To: "netmod@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.09.28-54.240.8.33 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Doodle pool for Virtual Interim on System Configuration X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 01:59:26 -0000 As Jason just reminds us, it was proposed to have a Virtual Interim to = continue the discussion on the System Configuration topic, which = generated over 40 messages by Qiufang, Balazs, Andy, Fengchong (frank), = Juergen, Jason, Qin, Jan, and myself. Many timezones are spanned by the contributors already: EMEA, APAC, = US/East, and US/West. I created a Doodle Poll for to help find times = that can work for people. I=E2=80=99ve tried to ensure no timezone must = wake up too early or go to sleep to late. The poll is set for a meeting = in two weeks from now (Oct 12-14). As I believe 2-hours is needed for = this discussion, the poll has 8 options per day. There are 24 options = total - sorry! Please, if you=E2=80=99re interested in this topic, especially the = contributors of the discussion on-list mentioned above, take a moment to = fill out this Doodle Poll in the next day or two: https://doodle.com/poll/49ttcukxam8hgmps Thanks! 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Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:24:34 +0000 From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Revision-labels within filenames Thread-Index: AQHXqXiY/tAhgjp89U2CmU+lMB5zuqukzoZQgBTGPGA= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:24:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8d2ecc44-dd47-4e15-e00a-08d9828bb188 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR08MB6060: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR08MB5084.namprd08.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8d2ecc44-dd47-4e15-e00a-08d9828bb188 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Sep 2021 14:24:33.8579 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: VtVg2uHM+QlmbHGD9+9/zYRQNfUKqJuTg9jkFFWyNAE72FbpYiT8MhsGlAUJ6k2EJHYHDE2YP2zz0RWATskv1Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR08MB6060 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:24:43 -0000 Hi guys, I'm not sure how reusing '@' is preferrable for URLs than using '#'. They a= re both escaped right ? Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Rob Wilton > (rwilton) > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 5:08 AM > To: Joe Clarke (jclarke) ; > netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Clarke (jclarke) > > Sent: 14 September 2021 20:38 > > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Revision-labels within filenames > > > > > I wasn't thinking of a URL to get the revision-label, I was more thin= king of > a > > URL to identify the source YANG file for a particular revision. > > > > > > E.g., in the YANG packages examples: > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages= # > > > appendix-A > > > > > > Ideally, I would like the URLs pointing the source YANG files to be a= ble to > do > > so without requiring any encoding of the '@' or '#' symbol. > > > > Wouldn't you think these locations would be generated via tooling (i.e.= , > > consumable by automation or just having people click)? I would expect = a > > human to look at the other package metadata to get the list of modules > and > > their revisions. >=20 > I agree that over time, most of these will be generated by tooling. But = I > suspect that there will still be some cases where simple packages may be > written and maintained by hand, where the risk is that incorrect URLs wil= l be > used, albeit, that it would be relatively easy for tooling to validate th= e URLs. >=20 > > > > > > > > E.g., looking at some of the examples (which seem to have been > converted > > somewhere), and hence the @ symbol has been converted to %40, which > > makes the date look like 40k years into the future. > > > > > > "location": [ "https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/\ > > > iana-crypt-hash%402014-08-06.yang" > > > ], > > > > > > If this location can be something like https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana= -crypt- > > hash@2014-08-06.yang or https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-crypt- > > hash@2.3.1.yang then I think that it would make these URLs more > readable. > > > > I do agree it's more readable, but I don't think it's critical to ensur= e. >=20 > I agree it is not critical, just nice to have. >=20 > Thanks, > Rob >=20 > > > > Joe >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Tue Sep 28 07:27:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD51A3A2F91 for ; 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Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:27:01 +0000 From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-09-28 Thread-Index: Ade0dMA7E2U0dAbERv2QslxK9WEDew== Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:27:01 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6726f46c-e705-4db2-8a70-08d9828c099c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR08MB6265: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6108; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-09-28 We continued going through the github issues for Packages. Assigned author for writing up specific text for issues: #29: TBD #30: Jason #32: TBD #38: Rob #57: TBD #63: Reshad #64: Jason #65: Balazs #66: Jason #67/#69: Jan #82: Bo #103: Rob Other dangling action items: - Jason to update marked-up comments (Module Versioning) and send to Reshad - Reshad roll in Jason's comments once they are ready - Module Versioning: at least 1 person to carefully review diffs once Resha= d rolls in Jason's review comments - https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/104 (my-module#3.2.3.yan= g). Joe to post proposal back to WG. <- posted, discussions still in progre= ss - top down reviews for YANG Semver <- Rob provided one, to be reviewed when= at least Rob + Joe are on the call Next meeting: - review Rob's comments on YANG Semver - continue with Packages issue #74 Jason ---------------------------------------------- Weekly webex call details: Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2021 from 8:00 AM to 10:= 00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 8:00 AM | (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 2 hrs https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) --_000_DM6PR08MB508477DB7E50E913B11D146F9BA89DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2021-09-28

 

We continued going through the github issues for Pac= kages.

 

Assigned author for writing up specific text for iss= ues:

#29: TBD

#30: Jason

#32: TBD

#38: Rob

#57: TBD

#63: Reshad

#64: Jason

#65: Balazs

#66: Jason

#67/#69: Jan

#82: Bo

#103: Rob

 

Other dangling action items:

- Jason to update marked-up comments (Module Version= ing) and send to Reshad

- Reshad roll in Jason's comments once they are read= y

- Module Versioning: at least 1 person to carefully = review diffs once Reshad rolls in Jason's review comments

- https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt/issues/10= 4  (my-module#3.2.3.yang). Joe to post proposal back to WG. <- post= ed, discussions still in progress

- top down reviews for YANG Semver <- Rob provide= d one, to be reviewed when at least Rob + Joe are on the call

 

Next meeting:

- review Rob's comments on YANG Semver

- continue with Packages issue #74

 

Jason

 

----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

Weekly webex call details:

Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630

Meeting password: semver?

Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, August 31, 2= 021 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

8:00 AM  |  (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US &= amp; Canada)  |  2 hrs

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebc= c37b8127c1244d244d2754

Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only)

+1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (U= S/Canada)

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Tue, 28 Sep 2021 20:41:51 +0000 From: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames Thread-Index: AQHXqXiY/tAhgjp89U2CmU+lMB5zug== Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 20:41:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: nokia.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;nokia.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d30bdbf5-e0c8-4cb9-4679-08d982c066a6 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN7PR11MB2641: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d30bdbf5-e0c8-4cb9-4679-08d982c066a6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Sep 2021 20:41:51.5627 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: jTsWvCTmWP3kO61hO+XE0xmM+3bgQEh5aNAXAoVEZyIdDgJRhNpuxmHIiPHLyZKiE2URGYaR13G3AFya1Za1Ng== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR11MB2641 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.20, xbe-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 20:42:01 -0000 On 9/28/21 10:25, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote:=0A= > Hi guys,=0A= >=0A= > I'm not sure how reusing '@' is preferrable for URLs than using '#'. They= are both escaped right ?=0A= =0A= The Makefile case would be the only thing I can think of where @ is more=0A= advantageous over #. But then you have the issue with tooling.=0A= =0A= Joe=0A= =0A= >=0A= > Jason=0A= >=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: netmod On Behalf Of Rob Wilton=0A= >> (rwilton)=0A= >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 5:08 AM=0A= >> To: Joe Clarke (jclarke) ;=0A= >> netmod@ietf.org=0A= >> Subject: Re: [netmod] Revision-labels within filenames=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>> -----Original Message-----=0A= >>> From: Joe Clarke (jclarke) =0A= >>> Sent: 14 September 2021 20:38=0A= >>> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; netmod@ietf.org=0A= >>> Subject: Re: Revision-labels within filenames=0A= >>>=0A= >>>> I wasn't thinking of a URL to get the revision-label, I was more think= ing of=0A= >> a=0A= >>> URL to identify the source YANG file for a particular revision.=0A= >>>> E.g., in the YANG packages examples:=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages#= =0A= >>>> appendix-A=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> Ideally, I would like the URLs pointing the source YANG files to be ab= le to=0A= >> do=0A= >>> so without requiring any encoding of the '@' or '#' symbol.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Wouldn't you think these locations would be generated via tooling (i.e.= ,=0A= >>> consumable by automation or just having people click)? I would expect = a=0A= >>> human to look at the other package metadata to get the list of modules= =0A= >> and=0A= >>> their revisions.=0A= >> I agree that over time, most of these will be generated by tooling. But= I=0A= >> suspect that there will still be some cases where simple packages may be= =0A= >> written and maintained by hand, where the risk is that incorrect URLs wi= ll be=0A= >> used, albeit, that it would be relatively easy for tooling to validate t= he URLs.=0A= >>=0A= >>>> E.g., looking at some of the examples (which seem to have been=0A= >> converted=0A= >>> somewhere), and hence the @ symbol has been converted to %40, which=0A= >>> makes the date look like 40k years into the future.=0A= >>>> "location": [ "https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/\=0A= >>>> iana-crypt-hash%402014-08-06.yang"= =0A= >>>> ],=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> If this location can be something like https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-= crypt-=0A= >>> hash@2014-08-06.yang or https://tiny.cc/ietf-yang/iana-crypt-=0A= >>> hash@2.3.1.yang then I think that it would make these URLs more=0A= >> readable.=0A= >>> I do agree it's more readable, but I don't think it's critical to ensur= e.=0A= >> I agree it is not critical, just nice to have.=0A= >>=0A= >> Thanks,=0A= >> Rob=0A= >>=0A= >>> Joe=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> netmod mailing list=0A= >> netmod@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > netmod mailing list=0A= > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= >=0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Sep 30 01:29:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B9D3A07D0 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:29:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mg-soft.si Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MSJMwV4Z_l-t for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galileo.mg-soft.si (gate.mg-soft.si [212.30.73.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E433A07D1 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.222] (tp-x61t.mg-soft.si [10.0.0.222]) by galileo.mg-soft.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDAEC41D787 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:29:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 galileo.mg-soft.si 8DDAEC41D787 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg-soft.si; s=default; t=1632990550; bh=YSZzleXI/EXEDKUHjPYM3kMTOxUL/WlXS5Z05r2DNMw=; h=From:Subject:To:Date:From; b=R+jzvBb0Vl+9gykZ4atVfE0hdFQqoVVlqq85k3aaryu9kSgd58jH1m05TAohmheHd StvHQpuygf+86x1TXCp8GUXYPMz+lcbzM89uhx7yGjz9KRcxX5XNZCJdjFbcaPY0u5 U2w3s+08SHw5OknF+WAElHPDAWTRjMBA3tSsUKjhXra+PQP+yQOqkK908+0m6xlt7J 5mHCxu2hcV8Uxgdpbi/L1Rc1aYzHHRFc5+2MleQuU6Fy9u724+LB7HoB3mo5cDOgg2 YwVfBJES5bQjpJI66cSPsB1PcWSQBkm5ll7g8eDoa51gZcd8eU7dNJl1WXeOHmYlGo 3c0smxPW/QSdg== From: Jernej Tuljak To: NETMOD Working Group Message-ID: <09e6a67d-3421-9c9b-b09a-e99951018c0e@mg-soft.si> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:29:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8E4CCB786694AAC40AC2CA6B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Module updating rules - removing base statements from an "identityref" type X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:29:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8E4CCB786694AAC40AC2CA6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, can someone clarify the meaning of the following bullet in Section 11, RFC7950: o A "base" statement may be removed from an "identityref" type, provided there is at least one "base" statement left. This seems to enable the value space of a definition to narrow across revisions of the same module.  Most other changes in this section seem to only allow expansion of the value space, relaxing of constraints, etc. What kind of revisions does this bullet cover? Jernej --------------8E4CCB786694AAC40AC2CA6B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi,

can someone clarify the meaning of the following bullet in Section 11, RFC7950:
   o  A "base" statement may be removed from an "identityref" type,
      provided there is at least one "base" statement left.
This seems to enable the value space of a definition to narrow across revisions of the same module.  Most other changes in this section seem to only allow expansion of the value space, relaxing of constraints, etc. What kind of revisions does this bullet cover?

Jernej

--------------8E4CCB786694AAC40AC2CA6B-- From nobody Thu Sep 30 01:48:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E22B3A088A for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=tlrnScCk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Gz5Onikf Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptU9K5DeGpOR for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B39B3A088D for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214323200E42; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:48:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4668.se; h=date :message-id:to:cc:subject:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm2; bh= Pi9VSSvW1kCuaVPd8+p3tm3OQYCqcFI1NpkAVMp4vuc=; b=tlrnScCk0MUn/kpu 1J+aQGHmcJANY5xVTBUVbnbP4bhykoG517EfSEzpn5090aNvKDaiIf9jHJee9FGe 2nsS/ZUlQ12+A/53hVovSLJqcEVgo9HrdeglP/MCDAwx3ljODC2lBXdHIuZyWd+z 3v+N/GWzMTAhqSl58xbWGizEiRl76bm6eX4rCBCAga2lKZIlJ8pjQV2I5ZP3rAK0 XaOR8n2eJklrU5QVHyuL6NWBT8twnN2rxA8exWE90FK6pG6Q64jdfVMFuGQEGkFG 1g7ISy2vHC0T0CrDPEjHinPIq/PGitlJsC7DCiF+rdZ/wOWg82wEa1/HgL0lIMuN dR7k/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=Pi9VSSvW1kCuaVPd8+p3tm3OQYCqcFI1NpkAVMp4v uc=; b=Gz5Onikfgg2nBAkwKGD44+Q+7b0oI/+gMEHCyCxPYtG8Mk/01JSgZr7s1 HJHqlT36gliEE/Gkn89qW4A+P0Ns2yEE5LCGGhxBmIkGG9MQHgX2/FBElb8ffoaQ UfEjsBonhdkwtAlilxjS07YaYJ4/jYDK/rXdHWCdBGTHZMQsINUczYZnxuL1aF+u cufbqqYuHiZfmd1bCnMs3uuQeo/ha/+RHg6t/OXPiOm9f/CyzHe9QCXl/vITOK6y tTo37p2mYgi/SvcKo3tV2Y+ZgxKGhV5w+qexa9L92egablLS443k3clewml+MBB0 hwLM3RnXNtI/mZege76vGugnDaJ0A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudekgedgtdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffkffvuffhjghfofggtgfgsehtje ertdertddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrthhinhcuuehjnphrkhhluhhnugcuoehmsghjodhi vghtfhesgeeiieekrdhsvgeqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnheptdeggfdtuddujeekleevvd eivdevheeigeeffeetfefgfeefkeehffdvfeevfffgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgep tdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgsjhdoihgvthhfseegieeikedrshgv X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:48:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20210930.104835.620513825070322166.id@4668.se> To: jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si Cc: netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <09e6a67d-3421-9c9b-b09a-e99951018c0e@mg-soft.si> References: <09e6a67d-3421-9c9b-b09a-e99951018c0e@mg-soft.si> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Module updating rules - removing base statements from an "identityref" type X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:48:47 -0000 Hi, Jernej Tuljak wrote: > Hi, > > can someone clarify the meaning of the following bullet in Section 11, > RFC7950: > > o A "base" statement may be removed from an "identityref" type, > provided there is at least one "base" statement left. > > This seems to enable the value space of a definition to narrow across > revisions of the same module. "base" statements are ANDed, so removing one expands the value space. 9.10.2 says: Valid values for an identityref are any identities derived from all the identityref's base identities. /martin > Most other changes in this section seem > to only allow expansion of the value space, relaxing of constraints, > etc. What kind of revisions does this bullet cover? > > Jernej > From nobody Thu Sep 30 03:23:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95493A0A90 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mg-soft.si Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qg7bXPQpGmme for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galileo.mg-soft.si (gate.mg-soft.si [212.30.73.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8DE03A0778 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.222] (tp-x61t.mg-soft.si [10.0.0.222]) by galileo.mg-soft.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F68C41D787; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:22:59 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 galileo.mg-soft.si 59F68C41D787 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg-soft.si; s=default; t=1632997379; bh=25MkmwYcgiqN38jGxGI94I6jo9gUKZevlUuz8DG8fHQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=mYynJdcWEliv2RJ2N9o3KjxFBDGLaoTPhUAeOV2dqk5AnOqpfBp8OzALz4oZbWoaC uqn6insM9yRkLWmyaz2j39sYlAsXrWbuvZNFnKSzfCZ99ZoiaE/EIeTPEkv4Z4o7Dx JVvtHvUx1HR+Nmrstc/RSE5+E7mwDIO3ROQ5tIbrH3sYd9gsWosLyzqFM9+8WJ9x40 PFcFQAPjkytUnr2YdgAUfzq1s/+oJWbdx72KbTsAm5YF+EhLfQnK+VSjUK5MEtnqfA EF47YqCUyxQR8L++Q+2dkd0mZ9eX3CHUzV4dfWHkYmgB550s2lpIKW6PCqeAYq/1X3 2XYb4+bQXsR6Q== To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Bj=c3=b6rklund?= Cc: netmod@ietf.org References: <09e6a67d-3421-9c9b-b09a-e99951018c0e@mg-soft.si> <20210930.104835.620513825070322166.id@4668.se> From: Jernej Tuljak Message-ID: <23e67baf-249e-5c99-1cf3-ac542070e502@mg-soft.si> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:22:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210930.104835.620513825070322166.id@4668.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Module updating rules - removing base statements from an "identityref" type X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:23:08 -0000 On 30/09/2021 10:48, Martin Björklund wrote: > Hi, > > Jernej Tuljak wrote: >> Hi, >> >> can someone clarify the meaning of the following bullet in Section 11, >> RFC7950: >> >> o A "base" statement may be removed from an "identityref" type, >> provided there is at least one "base" statement left. >> >> This seems to enable the value space of a definition to narrow across >> revisions of the same module. > "base" statements are ANDed, so removing one expands the value space. > > 9.10.2 says: > > Valid values for an identityref are any identities derived from all > the identityref's base identities. > Oh, my. That is not how I understood "identityref"s with multiple bases worked at all. Jernej > /martin > > >> Most other changes in this section seem >> to only allow expansion of the value space, relaxing of constraints, >> etc. What kind of revisions does this bullet cover? >> >> Jernej >> From nobody Thu Sep 30 03:29:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB923A0A90 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:29:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=beEdLlZX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=WHyEz/2M Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m_PZfbwvue1m for ; 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Thu, 30 Sep 2021 06:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:29:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20210930.122929.25060323719691847.id@4668.se> To: jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si Cc: netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <23e67baf-249e-5c99-1cf3-ac542070e502@mg-soft.si> References: <09e6a67d-3421-9c9b-b09a-e99951018c0e@mg-soft.si> <20210930.104835.620513825070322166.id@4668.se> <23e67baf-249e-5c99-1cf3-ac542070e502@mg-soft.si> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Module updating rules - removing base statements from an "identityref" type X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:29:41 -0000 Jernej Tuljak wrote: > = > = > On 30/09/2021 10:48, Martin Bj=F6rklund wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Jernej Tuljak wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> can someone clarify the meaning of the following bullet in Section= 11, > >> RFC7950: > >> > >> o A "base" statement may be removed from an "identityref" typ= e, > >> provided there is at least one "base" statement left. > >> > >> This seems to enable the value space of a definition to narrow acr= oss > >> revisions of the same module. > > "base" statements are ANDed, so removing one expands the value spac= e. > > > > 9.10.2 says: > > > > Valid values for an identityref are any identities derived from= all > > the identityref's base identities. > > > = > Oh, my. That is not how I understood "identityref"s with multiple > bases worked at all. If you want OR-semantics you can use a union. /martin > = > Jernej > = > > /martin > > > > > >> Most other changes in this section seem > >> to only allow expansion of the value space, relaxing of constraint= s, > >> etc. What kind of revisions does this bullet cover? > >> > >> Jernej > >> > = From nobody Thu Sep 30 07:45:28 2021 Return-Path: <0100017c372ab737-7095ffe9-4448-449f-9e70-9bc496d2bd3f-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4B53A0CC7 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:45:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJyMzKN8-ANC for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82A083A0CB8 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:45:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1633013119; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Feedback-ID; bh=m3SMjCKuz56y2dVkR60qTVhL2/JTZNFFJhB51AzQlcI=; b=D6bFeWUiwyv0p4euorP2oDdq0XcTLb1fCvlydJmrGF4XH2zgemCWWsv76ogDtdB0 +rwtJul8SqpSCgbR3DiOP322p/2elST8zVIfYxvGwLfouAmznn9EtEZ9M7jlnh1lKtR TKFg/v7oWHorvLvPfD9FS5yWGjx10PQnuI8xtGUs= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:45:19 +0000 References: <0100017c2a20afb6-be1f5aef-522a-4ef8-987c-e35b7b88b48c-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: "netmod@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <0100017c2a20afb6-be1f5aef-522a-4ef8-987c-e35b7b88b48c-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: <0100017c372ab737-7095ffe9-4448-449f-9e70-9bc496d2bd3f-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2021.09.30-54.240.48.94 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Doodle pool for Virtual Interim on System Configuration X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:45:27 -0000 Thank you to those that have filled out the Doodle poll. I will be finalizing the Doodle poll in few hours, in case anyone wants = to fill it out (link below). Currently, there is one slot having the most number of selections, = followed closely by another option, followed by quite a number of = options tied for third place... K. > On Sep 27, 2021, at 9:59 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > As Jason just reminds us, it was proposed to have a Virtual Interim to = continue the discussion on the System Configuration topic, which = generated over 40 messages by Qiufang, Balazs, Andy, Fengchong (frank), = Juergen, Jason, Qin, Jan, and myself. >=20 > Many timezones are spanned by the contributors already: EMEA, APAC, = US/East, and US/West. I created a Doodle Poll for to help find times = that can work for people. I=E2=80=99ve tried to ensure no timezone must = wake up too early or go to sleep to late. The poll is set for a meeting = in two weeks from now (Oct 12-14). As I believe 2-hours is needed for = this discussion, the poll has 8 options per day. There are 24 options = total - sorry! >=20 > Please, if you=E2=80=99re interested in this topic, especially the = contributors of the discussion on-list mentioned above, take a moment to = fill out this Doodle Poll in the next day or two: >=20 > https://doodle.com/poll/49ttcukxam8hgmps >=20 >=20 > Thanks! > Kent >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod