From nobody Tue Mar 1 03:42:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16913A07C0 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 03:42:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mg-soft.si Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D6DZljjRPUvc for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 03:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from galileo.mg-soft.si (gate.mg-soft.si [212.30.73.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7263A07D3 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 03:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.222] (tp-x61t.mg-soft.si [10.0.0.222]) by galileo.mg-soft.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12C6C41D7D9; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:42:16 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 galileo.mg-soft.si A12C6C41D7D9 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mg-soft.si; s=default; t=1646134936; bh=HiMVsCnEt24ZnfEGV5cv2LOgswSVnukUgBeKAvpzkF4=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=ARKFopam7SUc9e4vxc6iTYCe0Ex/ZDHjeb7s/Wzu+ZQK0QAo6zLdxV6fN2ndeNj+x dMep8CIN99KyyRsoUu+/8jimc9MBoY6oAHONnwCPxLqpC1W0ywC/O/hkwW9bVchN5l DcoBqC4CMaOp0dqiF/qN2KRcQQ5YjDhTrCSIGOFL1EY2x5SFoVAYNx3P33tP/QKzmU AQQCQk2FklZAdDtFZK7XzQdJ2U/T5fOiElPNniZ5d6y+/Rx4BM9j1hvlF5JHy8ubh0 6p8nzhvSI+Uy6gvDJ5pYyQiksqsaKI5zlKDQJ4d7iA6FN7GGVnSKPbuKZhPgUBPw44 b2pdypNodfSBw== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2CRQmUDIPxmXXm9dPhzYnEls" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:42:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI" , Andy Bierman , =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "mbj@tail-f.com" , "warren@kumari.net" , "netmod@ietf.org" , RFC Errata System References: <0100017f21f721f0-5e68776b-2836-4e20-8f83-ffbea5993a95-000000@email.amazonses.com> <26F9C810-C637-4D07-A2BA-40873D11C23F@att.com> <40DDF107-3C45-4871-9FCB-411EF3E33580@att.com> <20220228185306.fr4xpjiwp6dnhlcj@anna> <879E0AF5-1C26-454F-A46F-1ED4DED526A6@att.com> From: Jernej Tuljak In-Reply-To: <879E0AF5-1C26-454F-A46F-1ED4DED526A6@att.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 11:42:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2CRQmUDIPxmXXm9dPhzYnEls Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 28/02/2022 23:14, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 06:42:56PM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > Thx.  I probably went too far in my statement about XML documents > being unordered. But isn't it true that for YANG modelled data, the > order of the XML *shouldn't* matter ?  It should ideally be processed > atomically (i.e. after being fully processed/loaded it should be > non-ambiguous if you assumed every statement was applied at the same > instant) ? > > In addition to what Andy said (which I agree with)… > > > Ordered-by-user, is a special case – this is where the order is > significant.  For completeness it would be significant even in JSON > encapsulation (arrays are ordered).  Unlike other XML ordering cases, > the order in ordered-by-user is simply significant by itself. > > In other scenarios of ordering of XML document as described in RFC > 7950 there are two different aspects (and sticking with your terminology): > > 1. The way RFC 7950 stands, the order of XML does matter.  > Consequently, and XML document which is ordered differently does > not have to be “processed/ordered”; it is totally legitimate for > such XML document to be rejected. > > This could also allow parser of XML document to be more efficient in > processing data taking an account model order. > > For example, in your earlier example of ,, vs to > ,,, one is correct ordering and will be > “processed” correctly; the other one is wrong ordering and may result > in processing failure. > > 2. The second aspect, which I think you talking about, is the > significance of such ordering required by RFC.  I do agree with > you, there is nothing which prevents correct “processed/ordered” > to be done.  In other words, the processor knows what the keys are > and which order the keys are in, and he can get them from XML > document.  Further, if payload comes as JSON, the ordering is not > there, so if processor can consume both JSON and XML he is already > implementing order independent processing for JSON. > > Another point relevant to this conversation hides in section *6.4 > . * XPath > Evaluations, which states > >    The data tree has no concept of document order.  An implementation > >    needs to choose some document order, but how it is done is an > >    implementation decision.  This means that XPath expressions in YANG > >    modules SHOULD NOT rely on any specific document order. > > Couple point to note here: > > * The XPATH has document order axes, e.g. ‘preceding-sibling’ hence > it can interrogate document order > * RFC says that this is implementation specific (e.g. it does not > need to follow the order of XML encapsulation described elsewhere). > > Consequently, in your keys example, it is implementation dependent > which is preceding-sibling key-2, and it can be different from what it > is in XML document encoding the data. > > Not being an original contributor of this RFC, I really cannot tell > why ordering requirements (other than ordered-by-user) are in RFC, nor > what good do such requirements do. > These rules make XML encoded YANG instance documents more readable by human beings. Jernej > I can say though that this ordering is not a discussion of RFC 7950, > which sets the requirements, nor a discussion of this errata, which > was about wording used to set requirements.  It could be part of YANG > NEXT discussion :) > > Best regards, > > *Alexei Sadovnikov* > > Principal System Architect > > Business Solutions > > AT&T Business > > *AT&T Services, Inc.* > > 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701 > > m 781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 | _as549r@att.com > _ > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or > entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the > named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to believe that you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete > this message immediately from your computer. Any other use, retention, > dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is > strictly prohibited. > > *From: *Andy Bierman > *Date: *Monday, February 28, 2022 at 2:06 PM > *To: *Jürgen Schönwälder , > "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , as549r > , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Andy > Bierman , "mbj@tail-f.com" , > "warren@kumari.net" , "netmod@ietf.org" > , RFC Errata System > *Subject: *Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 10:53 AM Jürgen Schönwälder > wrote: > > RFC 7950 defines the ordering rules for the XML serialization of YANG > data (and it does not really matter what other uses of XML require). A > rough summary is that XML serializations of data trees are generally > unordered except that elements representing lists have to follow the > list ordering rules and that keys of list elements come first and in > the order they keys are defined. > > - ordered-by user > > - rpc input > > - rpc output > > - action input > > - action output > > A lot of text in RFC 7950 about it. > > /js > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 06:42:56PM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > Thx.  I probably went too far in my statement about XML > documents being unordered. But isn't it true that for YANG > modelled data, the order of the XML *shouldn't* matter ?  It > should ideally be processed atomically (i.e. after being fully > processed/loaded it should be non-ambiguous if you assumed every > statement was applied at the same instant) ? > > > > Some examples: > > - a YANG container shouldn't appear twice in a single > edit-config (i.e. shouldn't re-enter a container in the same edit) > > - a delete of a leaf, and a modification of a value of that > leaf, shouldn't be in the same edit-config (i.e. don't just rely > on the order of the XML to resolve that ambiguity). > > > > Jason > > > > From: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 4:15 PM > > To: Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) ; > Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Andy Bierman > > > Cc: Kent Watsen >; mbj@tail-f.com; > warren@kumari.net; netmod@ietf.org; RFC Errata System > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > Jason, > > > > XML is definitively ordered, e.g. elements flow in a document > order, and two XML documents with different order of elements are > not equivalent.  In contrast, same order does not exist in JSON. > > > > It is very different discussion if ordering of XML is helpful, > especially in presence of non-ordered JSON. IMO the ordering of > XML was never helpful to begin with, except to internals of some > implementations, and if implementation is extended to support JSON > encoding, the XML ordering is an overhead exercise of RFC 7950 > compliance, with not much of other benefit. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Alexei Sadovnikov > > Principal System Architect > > Business Solutions > > AT&T Business > > > > AT&T Services, Inc. > > 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701 > > m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 | > as549r@att.com > > > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, > are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are > not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to > believe that you have received this message in error, please > notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your > computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, > printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. > > > > > > > > From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" > > > > Date: Friday, February 25, 2022 at 1:30 PM > > To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" > >, Andy Bierman > > > > Cc: as549r >, Kent Watsen > >>, > "mbj@tail-f.com" > >, > "warren@kumari.net" > >, > "netmod@ietf.org" > >, RFC Errata System > > > > Subject: RE: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > Thx for the note about JSON IETF. > > > > I had generally thought of XML documents as also being > "fundamentally unordered collections of members" as well but I > must admit I'm not an expert in the subtleties of XML. > > > > Jason > > > > From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 1:20 PM > > To: Andy Bierman > >; Sterne, Jason > (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > > > > Cc: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI >; > Kent Watsen >>; > mbj@tail-f.com; > warren@kumari.net; > netmod@ietf.org; RFC Errata System > > > > Subject: RE: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > // As a contributor > > > > I agree with Andy, and personally, I’ve never found this text to > be confusing. > > > > Note, if encoded as JSON, then as per RFC 7951 section 5.4, the > list elements can be in any order, because JSON objects are > unordered.  Although, I would probably still return the keys > first, even if the client is not allowed to rely on them being > first/ordered. > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > From: Andy Bierman > > > Sent: 25 February 2022 16:39 > > To: Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > > > > Cc: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI >; > Rob Wilton (rwilton) > >; Kent Watsen > >>; > mbj@tail-f.com; > warren@kumari.net; > netmod@ietf.org; RFC Errata System > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 8:21 AM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - > CA/Ottawa) > > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > There is an interesting consequence of the wording for lists. > > > > >     The list's key nodes are encoded as subelements to the list's > > >     identifier element, in the same order as they are defined > within the > > >     "key" statement. > > > > > >     The rest of the list's child nodes are encoded as > subelements to the > > >     list element, after the keys.  If the list defines RPC or > action > > >     input or output parameters, the subelements are encoded in > the same > > >     order as they are defined within the "list" statement.  > Otherwise, > > >     the subelements are encoded in any order. > > > > The first paragraph says the key nodes are encoded in the same > order as the key statement.  But then the 2nd paragraph says the > subelements are encoded in the order they are defined.  But it > isn't super-clear if that entire second paragraph only applies to > the "rest of the" nodes (i.e. not the keys). The last sentence > seems to apply to the keys as well (outside of an RPC/action > input/output). > > > > > > > > It seems clear to me that the 2nd paragraph is about the rest of > the list's child nodes. > > > > > > I believe it is legal to define a YANG list that has a different > order for the items in the "key" element than in the definition of > the key leafs right ?  For example: > > > > list foo { > >     key "key-1 key-2 key-3" > >     leaf key-1 { … } > >     leaf key-3 { … } > >     leaf key-2 { … } > >     leaf some-other-leaf-a > >     leaf some-other-leaf-b > > } > > [not that I'd recommend modelling like that] > > > > > > this is legal and sometimes used. > > > > > > Is it clear enough that the encoding order of the subelements > matching the YANG-order only applies to the elements *besides* the > keys ? > > > > > > yes > > > > It is interesting that there is a small inconsistency here. > Looking purely at the order of the leafs won't match the XML > encoding for key leafs. > > > > i.e. maybe some implementations will order the XML this way > (doesn't match the order of *all* leafs): > >                 … > >                 … > >                 … > >                 … > >                 … > > > > > > The text is clear that the keys go first in the order specified > in the key-stmt. > > > > > > and might some do this (matches the order of *all* leafs, but > then contradicts the first paragraph): > >                 … > >                 … > >                 … > >                 … > >                 … > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > From: netmod > > On > Behalf Of SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 11:28 AM > > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > >; Kent Watsen > >> > > Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; > netmod@ietf.org; > warren@kumari.net; RFC Errata System > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > Thank you, Rob. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Alexei Sadovnikov > > Principal System Architect > > Business Solutions > > AT&T Business > > > > AT&T Services, Inc. > > 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701 > > m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 | > as549r@att.com > > > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, > are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are > not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to > believe that you have received this message in error, please > notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your > computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, > printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. > > > > > > > > From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" > > > > Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 10:21 AM > > To: Kent Watsen >>, as549r > > > > Cc: RFC Errata System > >, > "mbj@tail-f.com" > >, > "warren@kumari.net" > >, Joel Jaeggli > >, Lou Berger > >, Randy Presuhn > >, > "netmod@ietf.org" > > > > Subject: RE: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > Hi, > > > > I basically agree with Kent, Randy, Andy. > > > > Alexi, > > > > Thanks for flagging this, and the subsequent discussion. > > > > I can see your point of view that MUST is used in other similar > places, and I'm sure that in hindsight it would be nice if the > language was used consistently in equivalent places. > > > > However, I don't think that the lack of a MUST statement makes > the other text any less normative, or ambiguous.  In particular, > there is this paragraph of RFC 8174 that updates RFC 2119: > > > >    o  These words can be used as defined here, but using them is not > >       required.  Specifically, normative text does not require > the use > >       of these key words.  They are used for clarity and consistency > >       when that is what's wanted, but a lot of normative text > does not > >       use them and is still normative. > > > > Hence, I have rejected this errata.  If you find the current > text to be confusing and think that it would be helpful to clarify > this is a future version of this specification, then I would > suggest that you open an issue here > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues__;!!BhdT!nBhCe6YCJpOtCnmFwZ1oBRjxufTDTet131D2wG3sxyq6mSUshsyDWQzcIrvGvVlRg4l8NnqjPk8x$ > > ), and it will get evaluated when we get to revising YANG. > > > > Regards, > > Rob > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kent Watsen >> > > Sent: 22 February 2022 15:05 > > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > > > > Cc: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI >; > RFC Errata System > >; > mbj@tail-f.com; > warren@kumari.net; Joel Jaeggli > >; Lou Berger > >; Randy Presuhn > >; > netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > > > Move to close this Errata without accepting it. > > > > Kent  // as co-chair > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2022, at 5:53 PM, Randy Presuhn > > > wrote: > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-02-17 1:01 PM, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI wrote: > > Randy, > > I definitively see that point, and the line of sparing usage can > be somewhat subjective. > > In this case, I think use of “MUST” is justified RFC 2119 > “actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which > has potential for causing harm”. > > Missing “MUST” statement does leave it open for interpretation, and > > > > That is simply not true.  The existing text, e.g. "If the container > > defines RPC or action input or output parameters, these subelements > > are encoded in the same order as they are defined within the > > 'container' statement"  leaves no room whatsoever for > interpretation. > > > > misinterpretation will result in harm – XML payload which > encapsulated without following these ordering rule can be rejected > during decapsulation which does follow the rule.  The XML payload > is exchanged between client and server, often different > implementations, hence different interpretation by different > developers will lead to communication failure. > > > > The existing text is unambiguous, and provides no options in > ordering. > > > > As such, I do not see how proposed errata is at odds with > sparing usage provision, when it meets the described reason for usage. > > In other sections of this RFC (7.7.8., 7.8.5. and 7.9.5) “MUST” > already used for same purpose; it is difficult to see how it is > any more important in where ‘MUST’ is used vs to where it is not. > > Having said all that, the suggested errata can be reduced to > exclude section 7.5.7 and second paragraph of 7.8.5 – in both of > this cases the exact meaning can be referred from section 7.14.4 > (as long as “MUST” is present in there).  Would that resolve your > concern of sparing usage? > > > > Such text-diddling seems utterly pointless to me. > > > > Randy > > > > -------------------- > > Best regards, > > *Alexei Sadovnikov* > > Principal System Architect > > Business Solutions > > AT&T Business > > *AT&T Services, Inc.* > > 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701 > > m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 | > _as549r@att.com > _ > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, > are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are > not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to > believe that you have received this message in error, please > notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your > computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, > printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. > > *From: *Randy Presuhn > > > > *Date: *Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:55 PM > > *To: *RFC Errata System > >, > "mbj@tail-f.com" > >, > "warren@kumari.net" > >, > "rwilton@cisco.com" > >, > "joelja@bogus.com" > >, "kent+ietf@watsen.net > >" >>, > "lberger@labn.net" > > > > *Cc: *as549r >, > "netmod@ietf.org" > > > > *Subject: *Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) > > Hi - > > This seems like a remarkably pointless change, and arguably > > at odds with section 6 of RFC 2119. ("Imperatives of the type > > defined in this memo must be used with care and sparingly.") > > Randy > > On 2022-02-17 10:50 AM, RFC Errata System wrote: > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, > > > "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". > > > > > > -------------------------------------- > > > You may review the report below and at: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6855__;!!BhdT!gZbsQDBeTveBJPSYBpHQOJS8wjZSUsguzZ6KwXq4NAiJ1cAOZgcko9_3wb4pLOxeGCFKcQFoi9XajHOG-NeqWtpDMmnMUI4$ > > > > > > > -------------------------------------- > > > Type: Technical > > > Reported by: Alexei Sadovnikov > > > > > > > > > Section: GLOBAL > > > > > > Original Text > > > ------------- > > > 7.5.  The "container" Statement > > > 7.5.7.  XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     A container node is encoded as an XML element.  The > element's local > > >     name is the container's identifier, and its namespace is > the module's > > >     XML namespace (see Section 7.1.3). > > > > > >     The container's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the > > >     container element.  If the container defines RPC or action > input or > > >     output parameters, these subelements are encoded in the > same order as > > >     they are defined within the "container" statement.  > Otherwise, the > > >     subelements are encoded in any order. > > > > > > 7.8. The "list" Statement > > > 7.8.5.  XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     The list's key nodes are encoded as subelements to the list's > > >     identifier element, in the same order as they are defined > within the > > >     "key" statement. > > > > > >     The rest of the list's child nodes are encoded as > subelements to the > > >     list element, after the keys.  If the list defines RPC or > action > > >     input or output parameters, the subelements are encoded in > the same > > >     order as they are defined within the "list" statement.  > Otherwise, > > >     the subelements are encoded in any order. > > >     . . . . . > > > > > > 7.14.  The "rpc" Statement > > > 7.14.4.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the > rpc node's > > >     XML element, in the same order as they are defined within > the "input" > > >     statement. > > > > > >     If the RPC operation invocation succeeded and no output > parameters > > >     are returned, the contains a single > element defined > > >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they are > encoded as > > >     child elements to the element defined in > [RFC6241], in > > >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" > statement. > > > > > > > > > 7.15.  The "action" Statement > > > 7.15.2.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     The element contains a hierarchy of nodes that > identifies > > >     the node in the datastore.  It MUST contain all containers > and list > > >     nodes in the direct path from the top level down to the > list or > > >     container containing the action.  For lists, all key leafs > MUST also > > >     be included.  The innermost container or list contains an > XML element > > >     that carries the name of the defined action.  Within this > element, > > >     the input parameters are encoded as child XML elements, in > the same > > >     order as they are defined within the "input" statement. > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     If the action operation invocation succeeded and no output > parameters > > >     are returned, the contains a single > element defined > > >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they are > encoded as > > >     child elements to the element defined in > [RFC6241], in > > >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" > statement. > > > > > > > > > Corrected Text > > > -------------- > > > 7.5.  The "container" Statement > > > 7.5.7.  XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     The container's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the > > >     container element.  If the container defines RPC or action > input or > > >     output parameters, these subelements MUST be encoded in > the same > > order as > > >     they are defined within the "container" statement.  > Otherwise, the > > >     subelements are encoded in any order. > > > > > > 7.8. The "list" Statement > > > 7.8.5.  XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     The list's key nodes MUST be encoded as subelements to the > list's > > >     identifier element, in the same order as they are defined > within the > > >     "key" statement. > > > > > >     The rest of the list's child nodes are encoded as > subelements to the > > >     list element, after the keys.  If the list defines RPC or > action > > >     input or output parameters, the subelements MUST be encoded in > > the same > > >     order as they are defined within the "list" statement.  > Otherwise, > > >     the subelements are encoded in any order. > > >     . . . . . > > > > > > 7.14.  The "rpc" Statement > > > 7.14.4.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     Input parameters MUST be encoded as child XML elements to > the rpc > > node's > > >     XML element, in the same order as they are defined within > the "input" > > >     statement. > > > > > >     If the RPC operation invocation succeeded and no output > parameters > > >     are returned, the contains a single > element defined > > >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they MUST be > > encoded as > > >     child elements to the element defined in > [RFC6241], in > > >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" > statement. > > > > > > > > > 7.15.  The "action" Statement > > > 7.15.2.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     The element contains a hierarchy of nodes that > identifies > > >     the node in the datastore.  It MUST contain all containers > and list > > >     nodes in the direct path from the top level down to the > list or > > >     container containing the action.  For lists, all key leafs > MUST also > > >     be included.  The innermost container or list contains an > XML element > > >     that carries the name of the defined action.  Within this > element, > > >     the input parameters MUST be encoded as child XML elements, in > > the same > > >     order as they are defined within the "input" statement. > > > > > >     . . . . . > > > > > >     If the action operation invocation succeeded and no output > parameters > > >     are returned, the contains a single > element defined > > >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they MUST be > > encoded as > > >     child elements to the element defined in > [RFC6241], in > > >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" > statement. > > > > > > Notes > > > ----- > > > The RFC 2119 keywords are missing in description of ordering > for XML > > encoding rules for RPC, actions and references thereto and in > additional > > instance of list keys encoding. > > > > > > Although the text of RFC suggests reading this as if "MUST" was > > present, without keyword it is open to interpretation if the > sentences > > actually mean "MUST" or "SHOULD" or may be even "MAY". > > > > > > In other places discussing ordering, for example 7.7.8., > 7.8.5. and > > 7.9.5. the "MUST" is actually present, hence proposed errata > would make > > ordering description usage of keywords consistent. > > > > > > Instructions: > > > ------------- > > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, > please > > > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > > > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > > > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > > > > > -------------------------------------- > > > RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) > > > -------------------------------------- > > > Title               : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language > > > Publication Date    : August 2016 > > > Author(s)           : M. Bjorklund, Ed. > > > Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD > > > Source              : Network Modeling > > > Area                : Operations and Management > > > Stream              : IETF > > > Verifying Party     : IESG > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod__;!!BhdT!gZbsQDBeTveBJPSYBpHQOJS8wjZSUsguzZ6KwXq4NAiJ1cAOZgcko9_3wb4pLOxeGCFKcQFoi9XajHOG-NeqWtpD91awGhs$ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > -- > Jürgen Schönwälder              Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103          > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --------------2CRQmUDIPxmXXm9dPhzYnEls Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 28/02/2022 23:14, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI wrote:

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 06:42:56PM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote:
> Thx.  I probably went too far in my statement about XML documents being unordered. But isn't it true that for YANG modelled data, the order of the XML *shouldn't* matter ?  It should ideally be processed atomically (i.e. after being fully processed/loaded it should be non-ambiguous if you assumed every statement was applied at the same instant) ?

 

In addition to what Andy said (which I agree with)… 


Ordered-by-user, is a special case – this is where the order is significant.  For completeness it would be significant even in JSON encapsulation (arrays are ordered).  Unlike other XML ordering cases, the order in ordered-by-user is simply significant by itself.

 

In other scenarios of ordering of XML document as described in RFC 7950 there are two different aspects (and sticking with your terminology):

 

  1. The way RFC 7950 stands, the order of XML does matter.  Consequently, and XML document which is ordered differently does not have to be “processed/ordered”; it is totally legitimate for such XML document to be rejected.

This could also allow parser of XML document to be more efficient in processing data taking an account model order.

 

For example, in your earlier example of <key-1>,<key-2>,<key-3> vs to <key-1>,<key-3>,<key-2>, one is correct ordering and will be “processed” correctly; the other one is wrong ordering and may result in processing failure.

 

  1. The second aspect, which I think you talking about, is the significance of such ordering required by RFC.  I do agree with you, there is nothing which prevents correct “processed/ordered” to be done.  In other words, the processor knows what the keys are and which order the keys are in, and he can get them from XML document.  Further, if payload comes as JSON, the ordering is not there, so if processor can consume both JSON and XML he is already implementing order independent processing for JSON.

 

Another point relevant to this conversation hides in section 6.4.  XPath Evaluations, which states

 

   The data tree has no concept of document order.  An implementation

   needs to choose some document order, but how it is done is an

   implementation decision.  This means that XPath expressions in YANG

   modules SHOULD NOT rely on any specific document order.

 

Couple point to note here:

  • The XPATH has document order axes, e.g. ‘preceding-sibling’ hence it can interrogate document order
  • RFC says that this is implementation specific (e.g. it does not need to follow the order of XML encapsulation described elsewhere).

Consequently, in your keys example, it is implementation dependent which is preceding-sibling key-2, and it can be different from what it is in XML document encoding the data.

 

Not being an original contributor of this RFC, I really cannot tell why ordering requirements (other than ordered-by-user) are in RFC, nor what good do such requirements do. 


These rules make XML encoded YANG instance documents more readable by human beings.

Jernej

 

I can say though that this ordering is not a discussion of RFC 7950, which sets the requirements, nor a discussion of this errata, which was about wording used to set requirements.  It could be part of YANG NEXT discussion :)

 

Best regards,

 

Alexei Sadovnikov

Principal System Architect

Business Solutions

AT&T Business

 

AT&T Services, Inc.

550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701

m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 |  as549r@att.com

 

This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.

 

 

 

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Monday, February 28, 2022 at 2:06 PM
To: Jürgen Schönwälder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>, as549r <AS549R@att.com>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)

 

 

 

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 10:53 AM Jürgen Schönwälder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

RFC 7950 defines the ordering rules for the XML serialization of YANG
data (and it does not really matter what other uses of XML require). A
rough summary is that XML serializations of data trees are generally
unordered except that elements representing lists have to follow the
list ordering rules and that keys of list elements come first and in
the order they keys are defined.

 

- ordered-by user

- rpc input 

- rpc output

- action input

- action output

 

 

A lot of text in RFC 7950 about it.

 

 

/js

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 06:42:56PM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote:
> Thx.  I probably went too far in my statement about XML documents being unordered. But isn't it true that for YANG modelled data, the order of the XML *shouldn't* matter ?  It should ideally be processed atomically (i.e. after being fully processed/loaded it should be non-ambiguous if you assumed every statement was applied at the same instant) ?
>
> Some examples:
> - a YANG container shouldn't appear twice in a single edit-config (i.e. shouldn't re-enter a container in the same edit)
> - a delete of a leaf, and a modification of a value of that leaf, shouldn't be in the same edit-config  (i.e. don't just rely on the order of the XML to resolve that ambiguity).
>
> Jason
>
> From: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI <AS549R@att.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 4:15 PM
> To: Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> Cc: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>; mbj@tail-f.com; warren@kumari.net; netmod@ietf.org; RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
> Jason,
>
> XML is definitively ordered, e.g. elements flow in a document order, and two XML documents with different order of elements are not equivalent.  In contrast, same order does not exist in JSON.
>
> It is very different discussion if ordering of XML is helpful, especially in presence of non-ordered JSON.  IMO the ordering of XML was never helpful to begin with, except to internals of some implementations, and if implementation is extended to support JSON encoding, the XML ordering is an overhead exercise of RFC 7950 compliance, with not much of other benefit.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alexei Sadovnikov
> Principal System Architect
> Business Solutions
> AT&T Business
>
> AT&T Services, Inc.
> 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701
> m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 |  as549r@att.com<mailto:as549r@att.com>
>
> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com<mailto:jason.sterne@nokia.com>>
> Date: Friday, February 25, 2022 at 1:30 PM
> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>>
> Cc: as549r <AS549R@att.com<mailto:AS549R@att.com>>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>, "mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>" <mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>, "warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>" <warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>>, "netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>" <netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>>, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>
> Subject: RE: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
> Thx for the note about JSON IETF.
>
> I had generally thought of XML documents as also being "fundamentally unordered collections of members" as well but I must admit I'm not an expert in the subtleties of XML.
>
> Jason
>
> From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 1:20 PM
> To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>>; Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com<mailto:jason.sterne@nokia.com>>
> Cc: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI <AS549R@att.com<mailto:AS549R@att.com>>; Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>; mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>; warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>; netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>; RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>
> Subject: RE: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
> // As a contributor
>
> I agree with Andy, and personally, I’ve never found this text to be confusing.
>
> Note, if encoded as JSON, then as per RFC 7951 section 5.4, the list elements can be in any order, because JSON objects are unordered.  Although, I would probably still return the keys first, even if the client is not allowed to rely on them being first/ordered.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>>
> Sent: 25 February 2022 16:39
> To: Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com<mailto:jason.sterne@nokia.com>>
> Cc: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI <AS549R@att.com<mailto:AS549R@att.com>>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>; mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>; warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>; netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>; RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 8:21 AM Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <jason.sterne@nokia.com<mailto:jason.sterne@nokia.com>> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> There is an interesting consequence of the wording for lists.
>
> >     The list's key nodes are encoded as subelements to the list's
> >     identifier element, in the same order as they are defined within the
> >     "key" statement.
> >
> >     The rest of the list's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the
> >     list element, after the keys.  If the list defines RPC or action
> >     input or output parameters, the subelements are encoded in the same
> >     order as they are defined within the "list" statement.  Otherwise,
> >     the subelements are encoded in any order.
>
> The first paragraph says the key nodes are encoded in the same order as the key statement.  But then the 2nd paragraph says the subelements are encoded in the order they are defined.  But it isn't super-clear if that entire second paragraph only applies to the "rest of the" nodes (i.e. not the keys). The last sentence seems to apply to the keys as well (outside of an RPC/action input/output).
>
>
>
> It seems clear to me that the 2nd paragraph is about the rest of the list's child nodes.
>
>
> I believe it is legal to define a YANG list that has a different order for the items in the "key" element than in the definition of the key leafs right ?  For example:
>
> list foo {
>     key "key-1 key-2 key-3"
>     leaf key-1 { … }
>     leaf key-3 { … }
>     leaf key-2 { … }
>     leaf some-other-leaf-a
>     leaf some-other-leaf-b
> }
> [not that I'd recommend modelling like that]
>
>
> this is legal and sometimes used.
>
>
> Is it clear enough that the encoding order of the subelements matching the YANG-order only applies to the elements *besides* the keys ?
>
>
> yes
>
> It is interesting that there is a small inconsistency here. Looking purely at the order of the leafs won't match the XML encoding for key leafs.
>
> i.e. maybe some implementations will order the XML this way (doesn't match the order of *all* leafs):
>                 <key-1>…
>                 <key-2>…
>                 <key-3>…
>                 <some-other-leaf-a>…
>                 <some-other-leaf-b>…
>
>
> The text is clear that the keys go first in the order specified in the key-stmt.
>
>
> and might some do this (matches the order of *all* leafs, but then contradicts the first paragraph):
>                 <key-1>…
>                 <key-3>…
>                 <key-2>…
>                 <some-other-leaf-a>…
>                 <some-other-leaf-b>…
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI
> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 11:28 AM
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net>>
> Cc: mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>; netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>; warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>; RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
> Thank you, Rob.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alexei Sadovnikov
> Principal System Architect
> Business Solutions
> AT&T Business
>
> AT&T Services, Inc.
> 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701
> m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 |  as549r@att.com<mailto:as549r@att.com>
>
> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 10:21 AM
> To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>, as549r <AS549R@att.com<mailto:AS549R@att.com>>
> Cc: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>, "mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>" <mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>, "warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>" <warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>>, Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu<mailto:randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>>, "netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>" <netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>>
> Subject: RE: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
> Hi,
>
> I basically agree with Kent, Randy, Andy.
>
> Alexi,
>
> Thanks for flagging this, and the subsequent discussion.
>
> I can see your point of view that MUST is used in other similar places, and I'm sure that in hindsight it would be nice if the language was used consistently in equivalent places.
>
> However, I don't think that the lack of a MUST statement makes the other text any less normative, or ambiguous.  In particular, there is this paragraph of RFC 8174 that updates RFC 2119:
>
>    o  These words can be used as defined here, but using them is not
>       required.  Specifically, normative text does not require the use
>       of these key words.  They are used for clarity and consistency
>       when that is what's wanted, but a lot of normative text does not
>       use them and is still normative.
>
> Hence, I have rejected this errata.  If you find the current text to be confusing and think that it would be helpful to clarify this is a future version of this specification, then I would suggest that you open an issue here (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues__;!!BhdT!nBhCe6YCJpOtCnmFwZ1oBRjxufTDTet131D2wG3sxyq6mSUshsyDWQzcIrvGvVlRg4l8NnqjPk8x$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues__;!!BhdT!nBhCe6YCJpOtCnmFwZ1oBRjxufTDTet131D2wG3sxyq6mSUshsyDWQzcIrvGvVlRg4l8NnqjPk8x$> ), and it will get evaluated when we get to revising YANG.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>
> Sent: 22 February 2022 15:05
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
> Cc: SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI <AS549R@att.com<mailto:AS549R@att.com>>; RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>; mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>; warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>; Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu<mailto:randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>>; netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
>
> Move to close this Errata without accepting it.
>
> Kent  // as co-chair
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2022, at 5:53 PM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu<mailto:randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> On 2022-02-17 1:01 PM, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI wrote:
> Randy,
> I definitively see that point, and the line of sparing usage can be somewhat subjective.
> In this case, I think use of “MUST” is justified RFC 2119 “actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm”.
> Missing “MUST” statement does leave it open for interpretation, and
>
> That is simply not true.  The existing text, e.g. "If the container
> defines RPC or action input or output parameters, these subelements
> are encoded in the same order as they are defined within the
> 'container' statement"  leaves no room whatsoever for interpretation.
>
> misinterpretation will result in harm – XML payload which encapsulated without following these ordering rule can be rejected during decapsulation which does follow the rule.  The XML payload is exchanged between client and server, often different implementations, hence different interpretation by different developers will lead to communication failure.
>
> The existing text is unambiguous, and provides no options in ordering.
>
> As such, I do not see how proposed errata is at odds with sparing usage provision, when it meets the described reason for usage.
> In other sections of this RFC (7.7.8., 7.8.5. and 7.9.5) “MUST” already used for same purpose; it is difficult to see how it is any more important in where ‘MUST’ is used vs to where it is not.
> Having said all that, the suggested errata can be reduced to exclude section 7.5.7 and second paragraph of 7.8.5 – in both of this cases the exact meaning can be referred from section 7.14.4 (as long as “MUST” is present in there).  Would that resolve your concern of sparing usage?
>
> Such text-diddling seems utterly pointless to me.
>
> Randy
>
> --------------------
> Best regards,
> *Alexei Sadovnikov*
> Principal System Architect
> Business Solutions
> AT&T Business
> *AT&T Services, Inc.*
> 550 Cochituate Road, Framingham, MA 01701
> m  781.249.1516 |  o  781.249.1516 | _as549r@att.com<mailto:_as549r@att.com> <mailto:as549r@att.com>_<mailto:as549r@att.com%3e_>
> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s),  or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately from your computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.
> *From: *Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu<mailto:randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>>
> *Date: *Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:55 PM
> *To: *RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org<mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>>, "mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>" <mbj@tail-f.com<mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>, "warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>" <warren@kumari.net<mailto:warren@kumari.net>>, "rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>" <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>, "joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>" <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>>, "kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>" <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>, "lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>" <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
> *Cc: *as549r <AS549R@att.com<mailto:AS549R@att.com>>, "netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>" <netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>>
> *Subject: *Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855)
> Hi -
> This seems like a remarkably pointless change, and arguably
> at odds with section 6 of RFC 2119. ("Imperatives of the type
> defined in this memo must be used with care and sparingly.")
> Randy
> On 2022-02-17 10:50 AM, RFC Errata System wrote:
> > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950,
> > "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language".
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > You may review the report below and at:
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6855__;!!BhdT!gZbsQDBeTveBJPSYBpHQOJS8wjZSUsguzZ6KwXq4NAiJ1cAOZgcko9_3wb4pLOxeGCFKcQFoi9XajHOG-NeqWtpDMmnMUI4$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6855__;!!BhdT!gZbsQDBeTveBJPSYBpHQOJS8wjZSUsguzZ6KwXq4NAiJ1cAOZgcko9_3wb4pLOxeGCFKcQFoi9XajHOG-NeqWtpDMmnMUI4$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6855__;!!BhdT!gZbsQDBeTveBJPSYBpHQOJS8wjZSUsguzZ6KwXq4NAiJ1cAOZgcko9_3wb4pLOxeGCFKcQFoi9XajHOG-NeqWtpDMmnMUI4$>  >
> > --------------------------------------
> > Type: Technical
> > Reported by: Alexei Sadovnikov <as549r@att.com<mailto:as549r@att.com> <mailto:as549r@att.com><mailto:as549r@att.com%3e>>
> >
> > Section: GLOBAL
> >
> > Original Text
> > -------------
> > 7.5.  The "container" Statement
> > 7.5.7.  XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     A container node is encoded as an XML element.  The element's local
> >     name is the container's identifier, and its namespace is the module's
> >     XML namespace (see Section 7.1.3).
> >
> >     The container's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the
> >     container element.  If the container defines RPC or action input or
> >     output parameters, these subelements are encoded in the same order as
> >     they are defined within the "container" statement.  Otherwise, the
> >     subelements are encoded in any order.
> >
> > 7.8. The "list" Statement
> > 7.8.5.  XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     The list's key nodes are encoded as subelements to the list's
> >     identifier element, in the same order as they are defined within the
> >     "key" statement.
> >
> >     The rest of the list's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the
> >     list element, after the keys.  If the list defines RPC or action
> >     input or output parameters, the subelements are encoded in the same
> >     order as they are defined within the "list" statement.  Otherwise,
> >     the subelements are encoded in any order.
> >     . . . . .
> >
> > 7.14.  The "rpc" Statement
> > 7.14.4.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     Input parameters are encoded as child XML elements to the rpc node's
> >     XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input"
> >     statement.
> >
> >     If the RPC operation invocation succeeded and no output parameters
> >     are returned, the <rpc-reply> contains a single <ok/> element defined
> >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they are encoded as
> >     child elements to the <rpc-reply> element defined in [RFC6241], in
> >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" statement.
> >
> >
> > 7.15.  The "action" Statement
> > 7.15.2.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     The <action> element contains a hierarchy of nodes that identifies
> >     the node in the datastore.  It MUST contain all containers and list
> >     nodes in the direct path from the top level down to the list or
> >     container containing the action.  For lists, all key leafs MUST also
> >     be included.  The innermost container or list contains an XML element
> >     that carries the name of the defined action.  Within this element,
> >     the input parameters are encoded as child XML elements, in the same
> >     order as they are defined within the "input" statement.
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     If the action operation invocation succeeded and no output parameters
> >     are returned, the <rpc-reply> contains a single <ok/> element defined
> >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they are encoded as
> >     child elements to the <rpc-reply> element defined in [RFC6241], in
> >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" statement.
> >
> >
> > Corrected Text
> > --------------
> > 7.5.  The "container" Statement
> > 7.5.7.  XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     The container's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the
> >     container element.  If the container defines RPC or action input or
> >     output parameters, these subelements MUST be encoded in the same
> order as
> >     they are defined within the "container" statement.  Otherwise, the
> >     subelements are encoded in any order.
> >
> > 7.8. The "list" Statement
> > 7.8.5.  XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     The list's key nodes MUST be encoded as subelements to the list's
> >     identifier element, in the same order as they are defined within the
> >     "key" statement.
> >
> >     The rest of the list's child nodes are encoded as subelements to the
> >     list element, after the keys.  If the list defines RPC or action
> >     input or output parameters, the subelements MUST be encoded in
> the same
> >     order as they are defined within the "list" statement.  Otherwise,
> >     the subelements are encoded in any order.
> >     . . . . .
> >
> > 7.14.  The "rpc" Statement
> > 7.14.4.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     Input parameters MUST be encoded as child XML elements to the rpc
> node's
> >     XML element, in the same order as they are defined within the "input"
> >     statement.
> >
> >     If the RPC operation invocation succeeded and no output parameters
> >     are returned, the <rpc-reply> contains a single <ok/> element defined
> >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they MUST be
> encoded as
> >     child elements to the <rpc-reply> element defined in [RFC6241], in
> >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" statement.
> >
> >
> > 7.15.  The "action" Statement
> > 7.15.2.  NETCONF XML Encoding Rules
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     The <action> element contains a hierarchy of nodes that identifies
> >     the node in the datastore.  It MUST contain all containers and list
> >     nodes in the direct path from the top level down to the list or
> >     container containing the action.  For lists, all key leafs MUST also
> >     be included.  The innermost container or list contains an XML element
> >     that carries the name of the defined action.  Within this element,
> >     the input parameters MUST be encoded as child XML elements, in
> the same
> >     order as they are defined within the "input" statement.
> >
> >     . . . . .
> >
> >     If the action operation invocation succeeded and no output parameters
> >     are returned, the <rpc-reply> contains a single <ok/> element defined
> >     in [RFC6241].  If output parameters are returned, they MUST be
> encoded as
> >     child elements to the <rpc-reply> element defined in [RFC6241], in
> >     the same order as they are defined within the "output" statement.
> >
> > Notes
> > -----
> > The RFC 2119 keywords are missing in description of ordering for XML
> encoding rules for RPC, actions and references thereto and in additional
> instance of list keys encoding.
> >
> > Although the text of RFC suggests reading this as if "MUST" was
> present, without keyword it is open to interpretation if the sentences
> actually mean "MUST" or "SHOULD" or may be even "MAY".
> >
> > In other places discussing ordering, for example 7.7.8., 7.8.5. and
> 7.9.5. the "MUST" is actually present, hence proposed errata would make
> ordering description usage of keywords consistent.
> >
> > Instructions:
> > -------------
> > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14)
> > --------------------------------------
> > Title               : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language
> > Publication Date    : August 2016
> > Author(s)           : M. Bjorklund, Ed.
> > Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> > Source              : Network Modeling
> > Area                : Operations and Management
> > Stream              : IETF
> > Verifying Party     : IESG
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
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>
>
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--------------2CRQmUDIPxmXXm9dPhzYnEls-- From nobody Tue Mar 1 04:54:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C083A08AD for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 04:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=broadband-forum-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTQjVqAx6lxi for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 04:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-x1130.google.com (mail-yw1-x1130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33A633A08A9 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 04:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1130.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2d6d0cb5da4so143148247b3.10 for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 04:53:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadband-forum-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PotZaH5gChvCgxREUpg/pz2olmhDmujIV2GHfTeHDPk=; b=zWIv44dbeUVsu3vLnoaA5IMRuhyC6/+oMOPRmnPkUs31+/v4lwO8OTLmo6QdU5SwYa i3cCIDVqgijTQiurqynyypFybxP6GMjPerbqh2jY4b68FoLS3GySYSJCXqbIGI367iwH mn0XRlTq046bho4OWJTRD5gnc/aZbZSLifV1hkePKMHMJcN5fOTxF/UUdcvHB405EHzV z+fvAFrhTvgnZkv9aiYSyKYuszVYGefkdVX383JEtoksZL+7ntXjXq40Z88OFJvFeE1Z GkXt9zofIV7OlUgTJFu3sgPpgh454rYHP7sNsDb9txlU294z7HPDryv5MOqr9B5zpSSY DYaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PotZaH5gChvCgxREUpg/pz2olmhDmujIV2GHfTeHDPk=; b=Hsz9n5xLyOx0P5i5Lar0YYxqqEcmnBBqj2GXkb9C1pUHv8HEWFTcUIon6eDwtE/CdK t9nZ6EMFV9QJ0M7fLyACatjCLe4mhCpA3/BCvp1/ElXFq72tO6oNqpL//hjVHPzH/wrZ wAJ/OkV/QWSrUdSC/yWbTWqt9VSgkiDNn9CiRjyKG3r/lQIiew5Q75eU7++t/O8/cW0G l86HZrw7D0o51s52IiEPpQRJcd8G1sH5xQhXX73ghL8luePw8ZIP9PjGedPpCtSwKe6n j5a+81eyJi1ujVwsT1In/2zQl7CNwnNvbzPkVdG1RHgdBZVhmVf/GqozpDPK2KNfJUaY TFsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QuMMxqgvuZwo1Ceq1UwB8teu2AkWU8zPgACrR47Vbaj2fmqEJ ayKvljyjREFVx0Yq6VrqanOhJtZB0Ng6m11lw6J2/UI6bFo1SHfB X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAs/yCLtyelnLTas4HPqXjxEUTt8EldX3U12MPv5KFy5Enb427cJNPHJnrCMOJBFNZuKHSUbtM4qw+hZl2LoM= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a194:0:b0:2d0:ee56:ccdd with SMTP id y142-20020a81a194000000b002d0ee56ccddmr24934742ywg.135.1646139236307; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 04:53:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: William Lupton Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:53:45 +0000 Message-ID: To: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006eba9405d927a8d0" Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 12:54:03 -0000 --0000000000006eba9405d927a8d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, Sorry if (as is quite likely) this is a duplicate. I noticed from https://yangcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilation.html that there's a (long-standing?) problem in iana-if-type.yang : it has multiple revision statements with the same date: revision 2018-06-28 { description "Registered ifType 294."; } revision 2018-06-28 { description "Registered ifType 293."; } This has presumably happened as a result of an automated update script that doesn't check for this case (*)? From a quick scan, I didn't see anything in RFC 7950 banning duplicate revision dates, but RFC 8407 section 4.8 says "*If the module contents have changed, then the revision date of that new module version MUST be updated to a date later than that of the previous version*" and of course yangdump-pro is checking this. I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this? Thanks, William (*) In the rare event that multiple changes are made in the same day, perhaps the second change should be (strictly wrongly) assigned to the following day. In theory this could cause revision dates to run far into the future but in practice I don't think this will happen :). --0000000000006eba9405d927a8d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

Sorry if (as is quite likely) this= is a duplicate.

I noticed from=C2=A0https://yan= gcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilation.html that there's = a (long-standing?) problem in=C2=A0iana-if-type.yang: it= has multiple revision statements with the same date:

<= div>=C2=A0 revision 2018-06-28 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Registered ifType 294.";
= =C2=A0 }

=C2=A0 revision 2018-06-28 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Registered ifType 293.";
=C2=A0 }

This has presumably happened as a result of an automat= ed update script that doesn't check for this case (*)? From a quick sca= n, I didn't see anything in RFC 7950 banning duplicate revision dates, = but RFC 8407 section 4.8 says "If the module contents have changed,= then the revision date of that new module version MUST be updated to a dat= e later than that of the previous version" and of course yangdump-= pro is checking this.

I think that this should be = fixed. What's the best way to achieve this?

Th= anks,
William

(*) In the rare event that= multiple changes are made in the same day, perhaps the second change shoul= d be (strictly wrongly) assigned to the following day. In theory this could= cause revision dates to run far into the future but in practice I don'= t think this will happen :).
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Tue, 01 Mar 2022 06:49:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 06:49:10 -0800 Message-ID: To: William Lupton Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002ec00005d92945b3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:49:28 -0000 --0000000000002ec00005d92945b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:54 AM William Lupton wrote: > All, > > Sorry if (as is quite likely) this is a duplicate. > > I noticed from > https://yangcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilation.html that > there's a (long-standing?) problem in iana-if-type.yang > : > it has multiple revision statements with the same date: > > revision 2018-06-28 { > description > "Registered ifType 294."; > } > > revision 2018-06-28 { > description > "Registered ifType 293."; > } > > This has presumably happened as a result of an automated update script > that doesn't check for this case (*)? From a quick scan, I didn't see > anything in RFC 7950 banning duplicate revision dates, but RFC 8407 section > 4.8 says "*If the module contents have changed, then the revision date of > that new module version MUST be updated to a date later than that of the > previous version*" and of course yangdump-pro is checking this. > > I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this? > I think this issue should be resolved as well. The YANG library identifies each module by a [name, date] tuple. The operation uses this tuple to identify a specific revision to retrieve. The import-by-revision mechanism uses this tuple to identify a specific revision to import. If this [name, date] tuple is not unique, then it cannot be mapped to a single module revision. Note that with multiple release trains and the new SERMVER, it is likely that multiple [name, date, label] tuples resolve to the same [name, date] pair, making the uniqueness problem even worse. This is quite significant if a client reads the YANG library from a server and decides it already has the module cached (based on the [name, date] tuple, as defined in the standard. Then it will not use the operation to retrieve the module from the server. YANG artifacts and SID files also rely on this [name, date] tuple uniqueness. Even with the new versioning drafts, it is impossible for the client to know "Do you mean the REAL module foo, version xxxx-xx-xx, or your private version?" > Thanks, > William > Andy > (*) In the rare event that multiple changes are made in the same day, > perhaps the second change should be (strictly wrongly) assigned to the > following day. In theory this could cause revision dates to run far into > the future but in practice I don't think this will happen :). > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000002ec00005d92945b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:54 AM Willia= m Lupton <wlupton@broadba= nd-forum.org> wrote:
All,

Sorry if (as is quite = likely) this is a duplicate.

I noticed from=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://yangcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilation.html"= target=3D"_blank">https://yangcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilat= ion.html that there's a (long-standing?) problem in=C2=A0iana-if-type.yang: it has multiple revision stat= ements with the same date:

=C2=A0 revision 2018-06-28 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 "Registered ifType 294.";
=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0 re= vision 2018-06-28 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &q= uot;Registered ifType 293.";
=C2=A0 }

This= has presumably happened as a result of an automated update script that doe= sn't check for this case (*)? From a quick scan, I didn't see anyth= ing in RFC 7950 banning duplicate revision dates, but RFC 8407 section 4.8 = says "If the module contents have changed, then the revision date o= f that new module version MUST be updated to a date later than that of the = previous version" and of course yangdump-pro is checking this.

I think that this should be fixed. What's the bes= t way to achieve this?

I think = this issue should be resolved as well.
The YANG library identifie= s each module by a [name, date] tuple.
The <get-schema> ope= ration uses this tuple to identify a specific revision to retrieve.
The import-by-revision=C2=A0mechanism uses this tuple to identify a spec= ific revision to import.

If this [name, date] tupl= e is not unique, then it cannot be mapped to a single module revision.

Note that with multiple release trains and the new SER= MVER, it is likely
that multiple=C2=A0[name, date, label] tuples = resolve to the same [name, date] pair,
making the uniqueness prob= lem even worse.

This is quite significant if a cli= ent reads the YANG library from a server
and decides it already h= as the module cached (based on the [name, date] tuple,
as defined= in the standard.=C2=A0 Then it will not use the <get-schema> operati= on
to retrieve the module from the server.

YANG artifacts and SID files also rely on this [name, date] tuple unique= ness.

Even with the new versioning drafts, it is i= mpossible for the client to know
"Do you mean the REAL modul= e foo, version xxxx-xx-xx, or your private version?"

=
Thanks,
William

<= /div>
=C2=A0Andy


(*) In the rare event = that multiple changes are made in the same day, perhaps the second change s= hould be (strictly wrongly) assigned to the following day. In theory this c= ould cause revision dates to run far into the future but in practice I don&= #39;t think this will happen :).
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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<20220228185306.fr4xpjiwp6dnhlcj@anna> <879E0AF5-1C26-454F-A46F-1ED4DED526A6@att.com> <20220301.083451.2242216390284098385.id@4668.se> <45582273-6897-4FAF-BA58-55EA5BA08F6F@att.com> To: "SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 16:14:48 -0000 (Removing RFC-editor from the list:) On 2022-03-01, at 16:42, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI wrote: >=20 > I continue to doubt if this optimization continues to have value in = presence of JSON processing, where such optimization is not possible. = I am expecting an implementation these days to implement both XML and = JSON, and then it either implements something which can deal with = unordered for both, or have two different implementations one of which = is optimized. This is very interesting also for YANG-CBOR. We modeled our = representation after that used in YANG-JSON, but of course CBOR can be = much more efficient (in particular in conjunction with YANG-SIDs). If there is a performance problem with the YANG-JSON approach that we = could work around on the CBOR side, I would certainly like to hear about = it! 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I am expecting an implementation these days to implement both XML and JSON, and then it either implements something which can deal with unordered for both, or have two different implementations one of which is optimized. > If you want to process data in a streaming fashion, you simply have to buffer data until you have the keys of list elements. The XML encoding rules kind of force efficient behaviour, the JSON encoding rules do not. However, if you have control over your JSON serializer, it may still make sense to send the list keys early. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 1 11:20:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEF93A0B60 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:20:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yHdZ64ZcrP26 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-x1131.google.com (mail-yw1-x1131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 232E83A0AE5 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1131.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2d07c4a0d06so155520087b3.13 for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 11:20:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Rl+gMsyYSvsU1E09fQ6mdgJSrvQ8+u1trSlv6sR1NdQ=; b=olicdLBzIkqjOYh4MJDFO4F4qiQTljOEGMcS10Z5jaWpFUvxRJhVVMC5KT3B8yxeeU 5/f+TYeowKmqPz8eXa0aA8waGkkl6c3gZCX0lTxKtddMze2r6ofEKmYKIhZB2Z4qD+H5 Ho7VPIikPtxr5JO5xApZARNmmVMy0bWk8Hti9/S4A26GM5Jlc+Zc4l54TntssPi7HQZv VKHdUZqJ/BHgql7RuW0ca4vgeqGTxtdLCRqyzus5418P6BlnPJn3iBjWDAuygKHjydY4 gQ6/GaG6ih79qUGd8PGoZeO9TryB+GJt9XGGkxjYNv9Cg52d/tR8flYaUD9H8/oHQ0NT MCag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Rl+gMsyYSvsU1E09fQ6mdgJSrvQ8+u1trSlv6sR1NdQ=; b=J66o4Wfff7/zAMWXdJJSnIt5ErCAJvz7vxOHPoQH7pzuAr6KBjtW+lRWvRMymoP+i3 E+MDgMHu3Hjgkd1nJAcH3k5CZoFXM1DLxYkNeN5SbTgTGlkCyUCrLmRvZ9FD+B4xej3M SkpoqR9EjVsjT9pSWd7wpxvcFT37WDZPVKMe7nlXDQtgxQlQp3YhMGbQDVAps31cG2JR WskSOLjzDkNgKKNsc6ANpxbOXnD/ziM75wnKyiduAIa+bDl2PPKyjnknCZ3WUxa9JdHv LiR9L75NfvEYucjFbJAPmtLG01mNO5ZydM9pf2zxSAsIc2q77kSUO107FUuhDaEebY8t Ckww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530apRKpWAgdkoCYh5puEKYeIYaCAWpkD5QmyEXANaR57rD82/Uw s/MC3MZ6ai89cxh44s3t0enqiQ/9u8iV47Fhy7tMtA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyVGujpjLlmVa6Gkx3e317qUAgFZoWbQylBu+y9p2V+Vv9hcHP893Xbua4JIob8J6dWJObgOTrtum190YTr1AI= X-Received: by 2002:a81:d85:0:b0:2d1:1b8d:f236 with SMTP id 127-20020a810d85000000b002d11b8df236mr26515559ywn.212.1646162446776; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 11:20:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220228185306.fr4xpjiwp6dnhlcj@anna> <879E0AF5-1C26-454F-A46F-1ED4DED526A6@att.com> <20220301.083451.2242216390284098385.id@4668.se> <45582273-6897-4FAF-BA58-55EA5BA08F6F@att.com> <79DD3FF1-8167-412F-A67F-31BDEE092C62@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <79DD3FF1-8167-412F-A67F-31BDEE092C62@tzi.org> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:20:36 -0800 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI" , "mbj@tail-f.com" , "warren@kumari.net" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e20fa705d92d0ffb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6855) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 19:20:54 -0000 --000000000000e20fa705d92d0ffb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 8:15 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > (Removing RFC-editor from the list:) > > On 2022-03-01, at 16:42, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI wrote: > > > > I continue to doubt if this optimization continues to have value in > presence of JSON processing, where such optimization is not possible. I > am expecting an implementation these days to implement both XML and JSON, > and then it either implements something which can deal with unordered for > both, or have two different implementations one of which is optimized. > > This is very interesting also for YANG-CBOR. We modeled our > representation after that used in YANG-JSON, but of course CBOR can be mu= ch > more efficient (in particular in conjunction with YANG-SIDs). > If there is a performance problem with the YANG-JSON approach that we > could work around on the CBOR side, I would certainly like to hear about = it! > > IMO JSON is too stateful, making it fragile (e.g., missing or extra comma). It is also unordered, making implementation of annotations defined in RFC 7952 much more difficult. The issues with JSON are more pronounced for a streaming server, where there is no JSON document in memory, just a lot of internal API calls to get data. The API calls are easier if "what came before" and "what comes next" are irrelevant (like for XML). I am very interested in the CBOR encoding of YANG annotations (still TBD in the drafts). > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000e20fa705d92d0ffb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 8:15 AM Carste= n Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
(Removing RFC-edi= tor from the list:)

On 2022-03-01, at 16:42, SADOVNIKOV, ALEXEI <AS549R@att.com> wrote:
>
> I continue to doubt if this optimization continues to have value in pr= esence of JSON processing, where such optimization is not possible.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I am expecting an implementation these days to implement both XML and= JSON, and then it either implements something which can deal with unordere= d for both, or have two different implementations one of which is optimized= .

This is very interesting also for YANG-CBOR.=C2=A0 We modeled our represent= ation after that used in YANG-JSON, but of course CBOR can be much more eff= icient (in particular in conjunction with YANG-SIDs).
If there is a performance problem with the YANG-JSON approach that we could= work around on the CBOR side, I would certainly like to hear about it!


IMO JSON is too stateful, making it fr= agile (e.g., missing or extra comma).
It is also unordered, makin= g implementation of annotations defined in RFC 7952 much more difficult.

The issues with JSON are more pronounced for a strea= ming server, where there is
no JSON document in memory, just a lo= t of internal API calls to get data.
The API calls are easier if = "what came before" and "what comes next" are irrelevant= (like for XML).

I am very interested in the CBOR = encoding of YANG annotations (still TBD in the drafts).


=C2=A0
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

Andy
=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9fa95885-1caf-46c2-026e-08d9fc7b9d01 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Mar 2022 18:36:49.1933 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Z6XudxO0LnPWnZjLrJDkjArFB7ATrkncot56kOWyg4bYhrLZhc3WiAxxK/ISdHP2QJZ2QuPCtYmkcldknM3izg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR11MB1746 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.19, xbe-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Last call on YANG module versioning and Semver X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 18:37:09 -0000 Hi Netmod WG, As many of you may already aware, I've been closely involved in authoring b= oth the YANG module versioning draft (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning/) and (https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver/). I will of course follow the normal practice and recluse myself from AD resp= onsibility for these drafts once the WG has finished with them, which as pe= r Lou's comment of holding the documents after the WGLC has completed so th= at they can go as a set, won't be imminent anyway. Any IESG processing wil= l be handled by another AD, which could be Warren, or possibly someone else= chosen when the WG is close to finishing with the full set of documents. Regards, Rob =20 From nobody Thu Mar 3 01:25:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5F03A0A88 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 01:25:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=broadband-forum-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6E-vEdMUQLjk for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 01:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 593AF3A0A55 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 01:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id f5so8893928ybg.9 for ; Thu, 03 Mar 2022 01:25:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadband-forum-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5YhQuoH7sECevOZSenkp3FgFVKGfZgTd0jJ2LdGWixU=; b=oe7a9e/h83JPMPIe75VT6V7KAGBrL+mBzBF6IWMpHtaqmAT6rUvIafpwG5yGRbBomd 79KDi1KEagS+z/JMRVOntYqDHE20dE35RVu19ht4BH8nAindrGnrI9kQvVJWi1ya7NEF ZDKTCzVQGEGtOp80IMBOBk2K1LD+5uTJ0WY+C8IJIZB/TTrpPVdM8plCWRKeyo+ZAS5P Xr3uKN9lrI63X5YqG71YYwUEJK+kFP7fX+K/ktofduO9NBrtu9D0NA9e7HcnP4ukKHnC WCS4Fn9ZgnOO5P+nFGh0yZHkiCzc7dvYyoyIjEvpAosX0x0dIqdVKA/38gHTnCnvws98 S/LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5YhQuoH7sECevOZSenkp3FgFVKGfZgTd0jJ2LdGWixU=; b=q2yKRquTZ7Bsl8eX/kmOSudu9d3lY4lntf2IjPF77Jy5L/NPnONcL1mTgyqi0+OWni SfvB6d6qCt2tO3gnut11PBrK7ijrmIsApa2+Y3JoA/WlMCh407mE48HnAKlGXG43ErKU yL5jBWVvAhfi/2ZNlXu9poCAA/Z4zNucHw6bUYipu9awd+ckJtAjTWNJHQh87EOUxs8y CI9pdbaz790QFiqtBrI5UNZDHMi1wv1xThpDDpFfS5dq3tNUqpuRdo2x95hIsGnMlFwX 8uGRUOdlE59KTTB7Il2fdpptQnjYgraPwcwIJiA9QgNCIbsxCuqY1MDrOIQU3mfnzhnh Eb/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530V31AhKG4k5sIPUuaHKOtEvvxnIoYeTCydf0dsVof5bRnv9Rsi TAE02VDu6JRpw7qj58J+F0eaXAoZHuYxAtIP68L0g3cXJieeBJ42 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkMBdrCg1YUY80oCe6mBymCBIubNeLFcG4jmAO4XZmyvgI4sd+lfBMF6oOTPwhTwCpJgXLUituTGSUhgv1TQE= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4f05:0:b0:628:d05c:246e with SMTP id d5-20020a254f05000000b00628d05c246emr288262ybb.367.1646299503202; Thu, 03 Mar 2022 01:25:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: William Lupton Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 09:24:52 +0000 Message-ID: To: Andy Bierman Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000152a5205d94cf9a7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 09:25:09 -0000 --000000000000152a5205d94cf9a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Andy. What is the next step? Should I (or someone else) email iana@iana.org, or can we assume that the relevant IANA person will already have seen this discussion? On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:49, Andy Bierman wrote: > > I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this? >> > > I think this issue should be resolved as well. > --000000000000152a5205d94cf9a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Andy. What is the next step? Should I (or some= one else) email=C2=A0iana@iana.org, or= can we assume that the relevant IANA person will already have seen this di= scussion?

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:49, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

<= /div>
I think that this should be fixed. What's = the best way to achieve this?

I think this issue should be resolved as well.
--000000000000152a5205d94cf9a7-- From nobody Thu Mar 3 08:56:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41333A0BAD for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:56:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CgI_FHSFq_uf for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:56:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-x1131.google.com (mail-yw1-x1131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14C423A0E52 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1131.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2db2add4516so63116887b3.1 for ; Thu, 03 Mar 2022 08:56:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KwpXw2r0sps8RQ2fM7CNY1xDW5NRWReQhoamH0qUTC8=; b=DW/mWDg/gWj/pet/fMG01P661Rx1W207pYAVGwSWHaRoTxOFTgC9/MFM/IGXM1d65H LBz+BeNE7M1DrCXH1QrAbolImyZrdGSyKCR6q7T/rk/D6aFniNWBtqQVPdO4zGmVEPIb 4BvqCuMSFRWBk0Qq9EWQQu+nRYdAFswvuRV8OD40iWT6n9cM76xPMr9yzStLSwfIXtQc re09lxTgitvzWRwlUkGZa69K9WLR32A70gssU4Xy6cgjEFtLqqFZjTJ9ZP4O695qYZWL xIMyexmVxfrYEYfl0B/T7AFZMR6CS9MRExNKpsGbyUcgvNfNOjW+nXrJehE/b8Gd52ce nAlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KwpXw2r0sps8RQ2fM7CNY1xDW5NRWReQhoamH0qUTC8=; b=cIRZOQWI6ueyRQCoZst/FkxhcMl9lQyX1IRDbkD4HRCGUgM5rZSM22OzSyBBnIjoIH miEbRQlJHWMpBigKhJ7hge/95sQxUjEx9ipGxfNFSDzf/++EjVftxf0TduBKf9t++ie2 Xt0Jpl+iM0ZIelg7X6P0cK8hPEq2Fz1UE8L9LIuFDfjTKwQx5Hu39bav2qQ4dnzFW1Mq Jp5aAec5p9PvbsE6fnJKkI7lR3wgNuuETLDgb+8QeJV0oazNdMfKX2fy7n3hdNRmD5yF AgXl95CKclksd8m3ms9gaiDx7UgxH2hMBnDr6XpAcy/VrPcbJy0p5fOxBmGCYBvLVoz0 EBUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530aRDjAcJ3XEaKnSu2zBN36NFUj2Jw2Xba7Ot/0hKHXsDPxvLcD qe/b7VCsU586mEPRr+qKayqc8KvJx9C2LQvV89b5Kx7889k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwox+l/OjjlSHaAWsKZHOxwlwigLHHeG5SaEbVcsGeduQD5G2h2zcVbCUcCMjNiLEGy5v7Bg0sIy53Q2IkOJa4= X-Received: by 2002:a81:7189:0:b0:2dc:53e2:88bb with SMTP id m131-20020a817189000000b002dc53e288bbmr1383583ywc.110.1646326576657; Thu, 03 Mar 2022 08:56:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:56:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: William Lupton Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c9467905d95346a1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 16:56:23 -0000 --000000000000c9467905d95346a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 1:25 AM William Lupton wrote: > Thanks Andy. What is the next step? Should I (or someone else) email > iana@iana.org, or can we assume that the relevant IANA person will > already have seen this discussion? > > It seems that RFC 8407 already says what to do (use a different revision-date). We combine the revision-stmt so there is only 1 revision entry instead of 2. It is too late to do anything about this module. I am interested in the OPS issues: The client MUST be able to produce the same[*] schema tree as the server in order to have an accurate model of the server's YANG API. 1) server uses implementation-specific mechanisms (e.g. search path) to select the modules it will advertise in its yang-library 2) client reads the yang-library, which provides all the [name,date] tuples and other info needed 3a) client can use cached yang-library data and locally obtained YANG files 3b) client can use (IFF supported by the server) to retrieve the YANG files [*] same can mean a later revision if specific schema definitions have not changed Issues: 1) Is there ANY uniqueness guarantee that [name, date] is GLOBALLY unique. A: Yes according to RFC 7950, but not really in implementations. A: No, if revision-label is added and the same revision-date is used in multiple release trains. So if a client cannot rely on [name, date] uniqueness, then it does not really know if step 3a or step 3b is required. This is currently a solved problem using proprietary means (e.g., client hacked to know which one, based on server testing). But now there are more system components, not just a server, such as YANG Data Instance Files and YANG SID Files. If the [name, date] tuples are not globally unique here, then these standards do not work. Andy > On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:49, Andy Bierman wrote: > >> >> I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this? >>> >> >> I think this issue should be resolved as well. >> > --000000000000c9467905d95346a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 1:25 AM Willia= m Lupton <wlupton@broadba= nd-forum.org> wrote:
Thanks Andy. What is the next step? Shoul= d I (or someone else) email=C2=A0iana@iana.org, or can we assume that the relevant IANA person = will already have seen this discussion?

It seems that RFC 8407 already says what to do (use a differen= t revision-date).
We combine the revision-stmt so there is only 1= revision entry instead of 2.

It is too late to do= anything about this module.

I am interested in th= e OPS issues:
The client MUST be able to produce the same[*] sche= ma tree as the server
in order to have an accurate model of the s= erver's YANG API.

=C2=A01) server uses impleme= ntation-specific mechanisms (e.g. search path)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0to select the modules it will advertise in its yang-library
= =C2=A02) client reads the yang-library, which provides all the [name,date] = tuples
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other info needed
=C2=A0= 3a) client can use cached yang-library data and locally obtained YANG files=
=C2=A03b) client can use <get-schema> (IFF supported by th= e server) to retrieve the YANG files

[*] same can = mean a later revision if specific schema definitions have not changed
=

Issues:

1) Is there ANY unique= ness guarantee that [name, date] is GLOBALLY unique.
A: Yes accor= ding to RFC 7950, but not really in implementations.
A: No, if re= vision-label is added and the same revision-date is used in multiple releas= e trains.
=C2=A0
So if a client cannot rely on [name, d= ate] uniqueness, then it does not really know if
step 3a or step = 3b is required.

This is currently a solved problem= using proprietary means
(e.g., client hacked to know which one, = based on server testing).

But now there are more s= ystem components, not just a server,
such as YANG Data Instance F= iles and YANG SID Files.
If the [name, date] tuples are not globa= lly unique here,
then these standards do not work.

=

Andy



=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0
On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:49, = Andy Bierman <an= dy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achi= eve this?

I think this issu= e should be resolved as well.
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> It is too late to do anything a= bout this module.

This module is republished every= time a new ifType is added. Are you saying that it would be unacceptable t= o collapse the duplicate revisions next time it's updated? If so then w= e will live with this FOR EVER!
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Slightly better would be to ensure this does not happen again. /js On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 05:45:25PM +0000, William Lupton wrote: > > It is too late to do anything about this module. > > This module is republished every time a new ifType is added. Are you saying > that it would be unacceptable to collapse the duplicate revisions next time > it's updated? If so then we will live with this FOR EVER! > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Mar 3 11:24:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD8A3A10D5 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:24:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wmBNiAPMmXfI for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 911223A10D4 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4K8gqm5W30z67LZL; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 03:23:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) by fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.222) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.21; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:24:13 +0100 Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.217]) by fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.217]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.021; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:24:13 +0100 From: Benoit Claise To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Sch=F6nw=E4lder?= , William Lupton CC: NetMod WG Thread-Topic: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date Thread-Index: AQHYLWuKC+iToWzlhk6ccsVq23D3Cayqi2oAgALKDgCAAH4RgIAADcmAgAAU4ACAABd+Qw== Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 19:24:13 +0000 Message-ID: 11E004AA-3C5F-4D1D-BD60-103912CAC246 References: , <20220303190008.25d3xantvohwlyia@anna> In-Reply-To: <20220303190008.25d3xantvohwlyia@anna> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_11E004AA3C5F4D1DBD60103912CAC246_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 19:24:22 -0000 --_000_11E004AA3C5F4D1DBD60103912CAC246_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 to J=FCrgen point of view. Regards, Benoit From:J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder To:William Lupton Cc:NetMod WG Date:2022-03-03 20:01:06 Subject:Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same= date The obvious thing to do in this particular case (where there are only allocations of new values) is to collapse the revisions and to move on. Slightly better would be to ensure this does not happen again. /js On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 05:45:25PM +0000, William Lupton wrote: > > It is too late to do anything about this module. > > This module is republished every time a new ifType is added. Are you sayi= ng > that it would be unacceptable to collapse the duplicate revisions next ti= me > it's updated? If so then we will live with this FOR EVER! > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --_000_11E004AA3C5F4D1DBD60103912CAC246_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1  to J=FCrgen point of view.

Regards, Benoit

From:J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder &l= t;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To:William Lupton <wlupton@br= oadband-forum.org>
Cc:NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org= >
Date:2022-03-03 20:01:06
Subject:Re: [netmod] iana-if-typ= e.yang has multiple revisions with the same date

The obvious thing to do in this particular case (w= here there are only
allocations of new values) is to collapse the revisions and to move
on. Slightly better would be to ensure this does not happen again.

/js

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 05:45:25PM +0000, William Lupton wrote:
> > It is too late to do anything about this module.
>
> This module is republished every time a new ifType is added. Are you s= aying
> that it would be unacceptable to collapse the duplicate revisions next= time
> it's updated? If so then we will live with this FOR EVER!
>
> >

> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


--
J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder        &nb= sp;     Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587        = Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103      &n= bsp;  <https://www.ja= cobs-university.de/>

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 --_000_11E004AA3C5F4D1DBD60103912CAC246_-- From nobody Fri Mar 4 01:44:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459503A11FA; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 01:44:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <164638706020.28341.3679902578349768193@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 01:44:20 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages-03.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 09:44:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Packages Authors : Robert Wilton Reshad Rahman Joe Clarke Jason Sterne Bo Wu Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages-03.txt Pages : 53 Date : 2022-03-04 Abstract: This document defines YANG packages; a versioned organizational structure used to manage schema and conformance of YANG modules as a cohesive set instead of individually. It describes how packages: are represented on a server, can be defined in offline YANG instance data files, and can be used to define the content schema associated with YANG instance data files. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages-03 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Fri Mar 4 02:14:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698EB3A0A25 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 02:14:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=broadband-forum-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B-1v3TdLoYMk for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 02:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-x1131.google.com (mail-yw1-x1131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83A863A1168 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 02:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1131.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2dc242a79beso75412627b3.8 for ; Fri, 04 Mar 2022 02:14:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadband-forum-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Op7xNXp1IcFPFxWKpInPn9fai83AsbBUxttnJxennU8=; b=z4kZuK/sTl5sXimEXgSHKJ0WFtAFhZH58snPbYDZafolKJL/ehedFh8cUJVIXONOnv Ja8dg9DKssw+C/zQWG9w/jCB6CJdXZnQaWtEmQjhTEpAUVIkfbEir2gR6aJPX9JsHm4x qhVRPWeTAG8/PGFNIOAeviTC8u9fpN0E9pEitF5q7DANfJxvQo1C+82W2uMI1IuanvC/ 8gK+AOoMtoiv0jROTs8RULReCeuDtqkwe1SKGuuCg+lR8mV1hOwy9mkD6gm0FYjZXxHI 8GFacWAnGgwHFpWeUP0uiwyCTw0rsNjZAnjQh0lQPobkkVTEes1BkbQ4Zl0jl9e4Fyoq 84VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Op7xNXp1IcFPFxWKpInPn9fai83AsbBUxttnJxennU8=; b=1vjzjs6yvxiCq1nYSJcoGNlhNKKy26hc1r5WWyg2LctR42O7jhbfTQkbCTbGiYdJnm /TI8RxiFWRRKpwoxCqX7fIYk1KTk9TTIjT32EsgdrXe48L/fm60+zrOJ11rk7qQ2KgfJ P7/OGQoBK1d3wL3De1cdztgCe/Bfy+gkmOSk1HoZVwK6OlXeG7vBVrLnRnVLm4EFxnSi Ynp3rnOYw33L6us7FG6TvQ2MgGvmVCaj4zhqJ5DBqWNUlXef/Mzdu6dofk0mK2UJ7Ui5 LJzIhIgPCBF1IcR7Ptr9fLgA1HvLGnux/1opkHcFJuU1CobDhOyu5t33AAyWBndE9AUC 0PDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Twgr8x7QjzEx9s3ScLW11shlVGmJzx1wiwskgjYJ9ns++Rk1e 2SWOwGmh0eKfGR7vbPcpg/z4/MqQzKNS/iyB7XOzFAc8yalngQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwzsWrqIv6zTiOUx5kjZN461Xw41/0g98OwbQHPZr9jvoRsaJovMhVyz+0zVNKIRBD957RKEFa/Z594ivaD/bc= X-Received: by 2002:a81:90e:0:b0:2dc:a4f:9d45 with SMTP id 14-20020a81090e000000b002dc0a4f9d45mr12156253ywj.497.1646388881074; Fri, 04 Mar 2022 02:14:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220303190008.25d3xantvohwlyia@anna> <622115de.1c69fb81.409a8.d5c6SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <622115de.1c69fb81.409a8.d5c6SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> From: William Lupton Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:14:30 +0000 Message-ID: To: Benoit Claise Cc: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006b44a205d961c802" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 10:14:49 -0000 --0000000000006b44a205d961c802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 (not surprisingly). What action? And whose action? On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 at 19:24, Benoit Claise wrote= : > +1 to J=C3=BCrgen point of view. > > Regards, Benoit > > *From:*J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder > *To:*William Lupton > *Cc:*NetMod WG > *Date:*2022-03-03 20:01:06 > *Subject:*Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the > same date > > The obvious thing to do in this particular case (where there are only > allocations of new values) is to collapse the revisions and to move > on. Slightly better would be to ensure this does not happen again. > > /js > > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 05:45:25PM +0000, William Lupton wrote: > > > It is too late to do anything about this module. > > > > This module is republished every time a new ifType is added. Are you > saying > > that it would be unacceptable to collapse the duplicate revisions next > time > > it's updated? If so then we will live with this FOR EVER! > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000006b44a205d961c802 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 (not surprisingly). What action? And whose action?
<= /div>
O= n Thu, 3 Mar 2022 at 19:24, Benoit Claise <benoit.claise@huawei.com> wrote:
+1=C2=A0 to J=C3=BCrgen point of view.

Regards, Benoit

From:J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3= =A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To:William Lupton <wlupton@broadband-fo= rum.org>
Cc:NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Date:2022-03-03 20:01:06
Subject:Re: [netmod] iana-if-typ= e.yang has multiple revisions with the same date

The obvious thing to do in this particular case (where there are only<= br> allocations of new values) is to collapse the revisions and to move
on. Slightly better would be to ensure this does not happen again.

/js

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 05:45:25PM +0000, William Lupton wrote:
> > It is too late to do anything about this module.
>
> This module is republished every time a new ifType is added. Are you s= aying
> that it would be unacceptable to collapse the duplicate revisions next= time
> it's updated? If so then we will live with this FOR EVER!
>
> >

> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


--
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Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cam= pus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
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AOAM532qDf5REYxxEhwfyoGCeR8yLUT76+fcj5C5DT1osq2Eyb+bN5JJ e3Ou4XirbC3ibr5R8dzjy5BYk5i0Id73jWrfjY8sag== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7swHqHeEASxasjIkYhzNN+FIohsB9YloJWZeKAWpESNHbyTFhLFf6f7rjqqgV5lGDYAhoqxSd788rUyNYuuw= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a453:0:b0:2d7:e35a:f7af with SMTP id b80-20020a81a453000000b002d7e35af7afmr42351601ywh.159.1646416690792; Fri, 04 Mar 2022 09:58:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 09:58:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: William Lupton , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001dfc605d968426c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 17:58:41 -0000 --00000000000001dfc605d968426c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Vendors (including YumaWorks) have been violating the [name, date] uniqueness rule for about a decade. This is because vendors do not release YANG modules independently from software. Only SDOs do that. A common software release train model (obsolete, oldstable, stable, latest, testing) shows how a YANG module with the same date ends up in multiple release trains. - Obsolete release trains do not get any module updates at all - Oldstable modules usually only get changed for serious bugfixes. - Stable modules usually only get changed for bugfixes and minor enhancements - Latest modules get all bugfixes and all new features - Testing is work-in-progress and the version tracking is not useful during this phase since the modules and code are unstable and subject to many changes Consider a simple use-case: a bugfix in a leaf is added to the oldstable release train This is then merged downstream into each subsequent release train. It is impractical and misleading to give each updated release train a different revision date. This may break client applications and break import-by-revision in other modules. IMO a practical solution is to add a leaf to the yang-library list entries called "need-get-schema" (or whatever) that tells the client that the [name, date] is not globally unique and the operation should be used to retrieve the module used on this server with that tuple. Andy On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 6:53 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > On this specific point: > > > > Note that with multiple release trains and the new SERMVER, it is likely > > that multiple [name, date, label] tuples resolve to the same [name, date] > pair, > > making the uniqueness problem even worse. > > > > The module versioning draft explicitly disallows this. Even when using > revision-labels/Semver there is a requirement that they are separate > revision modules with unique revision dates. > > > > Specifically, it contains this text: > > > > In addition, this document uses the following terminology: > > > > o YANG module revision: An instance of a YANG module, *uniquely* > > * identified with a revision date*, with no implied ordering or > > backwards compatibility between different revisions of the same > > module. > > > > This document clarifies [RFC7950] and [RFC6020] to explicitly allow > > non-linear development of YANG module and submodule revisions, so > > that they MAY have multiple revisions that directly derive from the > > same parent revision. *As per [RFC7950] and [RFC6020], YANG module* > > * and submodule revisions continue to be uniquely identified by their* > > * revision date, and hence all revisions of a given module or submodule* > > * MUST have unique revision dates.* > > > > And for revision labels: > > > > Revision labels MUST be unique amongst all revisions of a > > module or submodule. > > > > Regards, > > Rob > > // As an author/contributor. > > > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 01 March 2022 14:49 > *To:* William Lupton > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the > same date > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:54 AM William Lupton > wrote: > > All, > > > > Sorry if (as is quite likely) this is a duplicate. > > > > I noticed from > https://yangcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilation.html that > there's a (long-standing?) problem in iana-if-type.yang > : > it has multiple revision statements with the same date: > > > > revision 2018-06-28 { > description > "Registered ifType 294."; > } > > revision 2018-06-28 { > description > "Registered ifType 293."; > } > > This has presumably happened as a result of an automated update script > that doesn't check for this case (*)? From a quick scan, I didn't see > anything in RFC 7950 banning duplicate revision dates, but RFC 8407 section > 4.8 says "*If the module contents have changed, then the revision date of > that new module version MUST be updated to a date later than that of the > previous version*" and of course yangdump-pro is checking this. > > > > I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this? > > > > I think this issue should be resolved as well. > > The YANG library identifies each module by a [name, date] tuple. > > The operation uses this tuple to identify a specific revision > to retrieve. > > The import-by-revision mechanism uses this tuple to identify a specific > revision to import. > > > > If this [name, date] tuple is not unique, then it cannot be mapped to a > single module revision. > > > > Note that with multiple release trains and the new SERMVER, it is likely > > that multiple [name, date, label] tuples resolve to the same [name, date] > pair, > > making the uniqueness problem even worse. > > > > This is quite significant if a client reads the YANG library from a server > > and decides it already has the module cached (based on the [name, date] > tuple, > > as defined in the standard. Then it will not use the > operation > > to retrieve the module from the server. > > > > YANG artifacts and SID files also rely on this [name, date] tuple > uniqueness. > > > > Even with the new versioning drafts, it is impossible for the client to > know > > "Do you mean the REAL module foo, version xxxx-xx-xx, or your private > version?" > > > > > > Thanks, > > William > > > > Andy > > > > > > (*) In the rare event that multiple changes are made in the same day, > perhaps the second change should be (strictly wrongly) assigned to the > following day. In theory this could cause revision dates to run far into > the future but in practice I don't think this will happen :). > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > --00000000000001dfc605d968426c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Vendors (including YumaWorks) have = been violating the [name, date] uniqueness rule for about a decade.
This is because vendors do not release YANG modules independently from s= oftware.
Only SDOs do that.=C2=A0=C2=A0

= A common software release train model (obsolete, oldstable, stable, latest,= testing)
shows how a YANG module with the same date ends up in m= ultiple release trains.

- Obsolete release trains = do not get any module updates at all
- Oldstable modules usually = only get changed for serious bugfixes.
- Stable modules usually o= nly get changed for=C2=A0bugfixes=C2=A0and minor enhancements
- L= atest modules get all bugfixes and all new features
- Testing is = work-in-progress and the version tracking is not useful during this phase
=C2=A0 =C2=A0since the modules and code are unstable and subject t= o many changes

Consider a simple use-case: a bugfi= x in a leaf is added to the oldstable release train

This is then merged downstream into each subsequent release train.
<= div>It is impractical and misleading to give each updated release train a d= ifferent
revision date.=C2=A0 This may break client applications = and break import-by-revision in
other modules.

IMO a practical solution is to add a leaf to the yang-library list e= ntries
called "need-get-schema" (or whatever) that tell= s the client that the
[name, date] is not globally unique and the= <get-schema> operation
should be used to retrieve the modu= le used on this server with that tuple.


=
Andy


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 6:53 AM Rob Wilton (rw= ilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> w= rote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

On this specific point:

=C2=A0

Note that with multiple r= elease trains and the new SERMVER, it is likely

that multiple=C2=A0[name,= date, label] tuples resolve to the same [name, date] pair,

making the uniqueness pro= blem even worse.

=C2=A0

The module versioning draft explicitly disallo= ws this.=C2=A0 Even when using revision-labels/Semver there is a requiremen= t that they are separate revision modules with unique revision dates.

=C2=A0

Specifically, it contains this text:=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 In addition, this document uses the following terminolog= y:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 YANG module revision: An instance of a YANG modu= le, uniquely

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 identified with a revision date, with no implied ordering or

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 backwards compatibility between differ= ent revisions of the same

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 module.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document clarifies [RFC7950] and [RFC6020] to explicit=
ly allow
=C2=A0=C2=A0 non-linear development of YANG module and submodule revisio=
ns, so
=C2=A0=C2=A0 that they MAY have multiple revisions that directly derive =
from the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 same parent revision.=C2=A0 As per [RFC7950] and [RFC602=
0], YANG module
=C2=A0=C2=A0 and submodule revisions continue to be uniquely identifi=
ed by their
=C2=A0=C2=A0 revision date, and hence all revisions of a given module=
 or submodule
=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST have unique revision dates.

=C2=A0

And for revision labels:<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Revision labels MUST be unique amongst al=
l revisions of a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 module or submodule.=

=C2=A0

Regards,

Rob

// As an author/contributor.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

F= rom: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 01 March 2022 14:49
To: William Lupton <wlupton@broadband-forum.org>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with = the same date

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:= 54 AM William Lupton <wlupton@broadband-forum.org> wrote:

All,

=C2=A0

Sorry if (as is quite lik= ely) this is a duplicate.

=C2=A0

I noticed from=C2=A0https://yangcatalog.org/private-page/BBFYANGPageCompilation.= html that there's a (long-standing?) problem in=C2=A0iana-if-type.yang: it has mul= tiple revision statements with the same date:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 revision 2018-06= -28 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Registered ifType 294.";
=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0 revision 2018-06-28 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Registered ifType 293.";
=C2=A0 }

This has presumably happe= ned as a result of an automated update script that doesn't check for th= is case (*)? From a quick scan, I didn't see anything in RFC 7950 banni= ng duplicate revision dates, but RFC 8407 section 4.8 says "If the module contents have changed, then the re= vision date of that new module version MUST be updated to a date later than= that of the previous version" and of course yangdump-pro is check= ing this.

=C2=A0

I think that this should = be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this?

=C2=A0

I think this issue should= be resolved as well.

The YANG library identifi= es each module by a [name, date] tuple.

The <get-schema> op= eration uses this tuple to identify a specific revision to retrieve.=

The import-by-revision=C2= =A0mechanism uses this tuple to identify a specific revision to import.<= /u>

=C2=A0

If this [name, date] tupl= e is not unique, then it cannot be mapped to a single module revision.

=C2=A0

Note that with multiple r= elease trains and the new SERMVER, it is likely

that multiple=C2=A0[name,= date, label] tuples resolve to the same [name, date] pair,

making the uniqueness pro= blem even worse.

=C2=A0

This is quite significant= if a client reads the YANG library from a server

and decides it already ha= s the module cached (based on the [name, date] tuple,

as defined in the standar= d.=C2=A0 Then it will not use the <get-schema> operation

to retrieve the module fr= om the server.

=C2=A0

YANG artifacts and SID fi= les also rely on this [name, date] tuple uniqueness.

=C2=A0

Even with the new version= ing drafts, it is impossible for the client to know

"Do you mean the REA= L module foo, version xxxx-xx-xx, or your private version?"<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks,

William

=C2=A0

=C2=A0Andy<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(*) In the rare event tha= t multiple changes are made in the same day, perhaps the second change shou= ld be (strictly wrongly) assigned to the following day. In theory this coul= d cause revision dates to run far into the future but in practice I don't think this will happen :).<= /u>

_________________________= ______________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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(2603:10b6:a03:1ce::13) by BYAPR11MB2551.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:c5::28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5038.16; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:00:16 +0000 Received: from BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::98bf:c4ea:a0fe:42f3]) by BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::98bf:c4ea:a0fe:42f3%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5038.014; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:00:16 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Andy Bierman CC: NetMod WG Thread-Topic: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date Thread-Index: AQHYLWt8yhTYbgXzzkKJmSZlAuVUW6yqnC0AgALKDgCAAH4SgIABmTxA Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:00:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTSSMilOuVy8VV+JMy548iLrh7fQ/AOD2aeqXm6tUmAUoiYK2W5qy+jTJ+wOG5F7hzGAepFGvVbIVMsgCNeRE= X-Received: by 2002:a81:7c7:0:b0:2db:f50a:4b02 with SMTP id 190-20020a8107c7000000b002dbf50a4b02mr17603671ywh.350.1646418313463; Fri, 04 Mar 2022 10:25:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9dfba05d968a22c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the same date X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 18:25:30 -0000 --000000000000b9dfba05d968a22c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 10:00 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > YANG packages are aimed at partly solving the problem you describe below. > > > > In the -00 revision of the packages draft, it included SHA hashes* (YANG > leaf =E2=80=9Cchecksum=E2=80=9D) of the included modules and packages so = that a client can > determine that its local copy of module@A.B.C (or revision-date) exactly > matches the one that the server is declaring that it is using in the YANG > package definition. You can see this in the -00 version (YANG Packages > (ietf.org) > ). > > > > The checksum/hashes have been taken out of later revisions of the draft > for two reasons: > > 1. At the time, we were not sure that we had a canonical > representation of a YANG module, although possibly this has been mitig= ated > by the YANG module versioning draft that effectively defines the file = text > of the published YANG module to be that canonical representation. > 2. It was thought that it was too complex, and hence better deferred > to an extension of future version of the YANG packages draft. We also > thought that we would need to get real security folks involved to chec= k > that we are really getting this right. > > > > But either way, longer term, I think that a scheme along these lines this > will probably be helpful. > > > I was going to mention the checksums. I am aware they were taken out. I have understood for years that YANG conformance at the module-level, which is baked into the module itself, is a broken architecture. Conformance should be based on use-cases, for which YANG module boundaries are irrelevant. The key to package management is that it replaces individual file management. How do YANG 1.1 compliant systems which only know about YANG modules work with newer systems that know about packages. Managing the interaction details at both the module and package level seems complicated. IMO a new YANG version number is needed to make the sort of changes propose= d in the versioning work. There are existing issues, e.g.: - the behavior for 'deprecated' and 'obsolete' has been broken from the start and only a new YANG version can really fix it - a standard module (or package) should be able to use deviations to alter a module for its own use-cases, but this violates a MUST NOT in YANG 1.1 - All extensions are purely optional in YANG 1.1, which could be fixed in a new YANG version - YANG packages could be mandatory for the new YANG version, allowing conformance requirements to be properly expressed Rob > > // As an individual contributor > > > > > Andy > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* 03 March 2022 16:56 > *To:* William Lupton > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with the > same date > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 1:25 AM William Lupton > wrote: > > Thanks Andy. What is the next step? Should I (or someone else) email > iana@iana.org, or can we assume that the relevant IANA person will > already have seen this discussion? > > > > > > It seems that RFC 8407 already says what to do (use a different > revision-date). > > We combine the revision-stmt so there is only 1 revision entry instead of > 2. > > > > It is too late to do anything about this module. > > > > I am interested in the OPS issues: > > The client MUST be able to produce the same[*] schema tree as the server > > in order to have an accurate model of the server's YANG API. > > > > 1) server uses implementation-specific mechanisms (e.g. search path) > > to select the modules it will advertise in its yang-library > > 2) client reads the yang-library, which provides all the [name,date] > tuples > > and other info needed > > 3a) client can use cached yang-library data and locally obtained YANG > files > > 3b) client can use (IFF supported by the server) to retriev= e > the YANG files > > > > [*] same can mean a later revision if specific schema definitions have no= t > changed > > > > Issues: > > > > 1) Is there ANY uniqueness guarantee that [name, date] is GLOBALLY unique= . > > A: Yes according to RFC 7950, but not really in implementations. > > A: No, if revision-label is added and the same revision-date is used in > multiple release trains. > > > > So if a client cannot rely on [name, date] uniqueness, then it does not > really know if > > step 3a or step 3b is required. > > > > This is currently a solved problem using proprietary means > > (e.g., client hacked to know which one, based on server testing). > > > > But now there are more system components, not just a server, > > such as YANG Data Instance Files and YANG SID Files. > > If the [name, date] tuples are not globally unique here, > > then these standards do not work. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:49, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > I think that this should be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this? > > > > I think this issue should be resolved as well. > > --000000000000b9dfba05d968a22c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 10:00 AM Rob W= ilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

YANG packages are aimed at partly solving the = problem you describe below.

=C2=A0

In the -00 revision of the packages draft, it = included SHA hashes* (YANG leaf =E2=80=9Cchecksum=E2=80=9D) of the included= modules and packages so that a client can determine that its local copy of module@A.B.C (or revi= sion-date) exactly matches the one that the server is declaring that it is = using in the YANG package definition.=C2=A0 You can see this in the -00 ver= sion (YANG Packages (ietf.org)).

=C2=A0

The checksum/hashes have been taken out of later rev= isions of the draft for two reasons:

  1. At the time, we were not sure that we had a canonical representati= on of a YANG module, although possibly this has been mitigated by the YANG = module versioning draft that effectively defines the file text of the published YANG module to be that canonical re= presentation.
  2. It was thought that it was too com= plex, and hence better deferred to an extension of future version of the YA= NG packages draft.=C2=A0 We also thought that we would need to get real sec= urity folks involved to check that we are really getting this right.

=C2=A0

But either way, longer term, I think that a scheme a= long these lines this will probably be helpful.

=C2=A0


<= /div>
I was going to mention the checksums. I am aware they were taken = out.

I have understood for years that YANG conform= ance at the module-level,
which is baked into the module itself, = is a broken architecture.

Conformance should be ba= sed on use-cases, for which YANG module boundaries
are irrelevant= .=C2=A0 The key to package management is that it replaces individual file m= anagement.
How do YANG 1.1 compliant systems which only know abou= t YANG modules work
with newer systems that know about packages.= =C2=A0 Managing the interaction details
at both the module and pa= ckage level seems complicated.

IMO a new YANG vers= ion number is needed to make the sort of changes proposed
in the = versioning work. There are existing issues, e.g.:

= - the behavior=C2=A0for 'deprecated' and 'obsolete' has bee= n broken from the start
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and only a new YANG version = can really fix it
- a standard module (or package) should be able= to use deviations to alter
=C2=A0 a module for its own use-cases= , but this violates=C2=A0a MUST NOT in YANG 1.1
- All extensions = are purely optional in YANG 1.1, which could be fixed in a new YANG version=
- YANG packages could be mandatory for the new YANG version, all= owing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0conformance requirements to be properly expres= sed




<= br>

Rob

// As an individual contributor

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



Andy

=C2=A0<= /div>

F= rom: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 03 March 2022 16:56
To: William Lupton <wlupton@broadband-forum.org>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] iana-if-type.yang has multiple revisions with = the same date

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 1:= 25 AM William Lupton <wlupton@broadband-forum.org> wrote:

Thanks Andy. What is the = next step? Should I (or someone else) email=C2=A0iana@iana.org, or can we assume that the relev= ant IANA person will already have seen this discussion?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It seems that RFC 8407 al= ready says what to do (use a different revision-date).

We combine the revision-s= tmt so there is only 1 revision entry instead of 2.

=C2=A0

It is too late to do anyt= hing about this module.

=C2=A0

I am interested in the OP= S issues:

The client MUST be able t= o produce the same[*] schema tree as the server

in order to have an accur= ate model of the server's YANG API.

=C2=A0

=C2=A01) server uses impl= ementation-specific mechanisms (e.g. search path)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to se= lect the modules it will advertise in its yang-library

=C2=A02) client reads the= yang-library, which provides all the [name,date] tuples

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and o= ther info needed

=C2=A03a) client can use = cached yang-library data and locally obtained YANG files

=C2=A03b) client can use = <get-schema> (IFF supported by the server) to retrieve the YANG files=

=C2=A0

[*] same can mean a later= revision if specific schema definitions have not changed

=C2=A0

Issues:

=C2=A0

1) Is there ANY uniquenes= s guarantee that [name, date] is GLOBALLY unique.

A: Yes according to RFC 7= 950, but not really in implementations.

A: No, if revision-label = is added and the same revision-date is used in multiple release trains.<= /u>

=C2=A0

So if a client cannot rel= y on [name, date] uniqueness, then it does not really know if=

step 3a or step 3b is req= uired.

=C2=A0

This is currently a solve= d problem using proprietary means

(e.g., client hacked to k= now which one, based on server testing).

=C2=A0

But now there are more sy= stem components, not just a server,

such as YANG Data Instanc= e Files and YANG SID Files.

If the [name, date] tuple= s are not globally unique here,

then these standards do n= ot work.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:= 49, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

I think that this should = be fixed. What's the best way to achieve this?

=C2=A0

I think this issue should= be resolved as well.

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Document: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning-05 Date: 2022-03-06 * 1. Introduction Is it "module lifecyle problems" or "module versioning problems"? Can we perhaps be even more explicit? I also note that [I-D.ietf-netmod-yang-solutions] has seemingly expired, perhaps this document is not needed if we revise the introduction a bit and make it more descriptive. And why are SDOs, vendors and industry mentioned as explicit targets? Here is an attempt to make a constructive proposal: NEW The current YANG [RFC7950] module update rules require that updates of YANG modules preserve strict backwards compatibility. This has caused problems as described in [I-D.ietf-netmod-yang-versioning-reqs]. This document recognizes the need to sometimes allow YANG modules to evolve with non-backwards-compatible changes, which can cause breakage to clients and importing YANG modules. Accepting that non-backwards-compatible changes do sometimes occur, it is important to have mechanisms to report where these changes occur, and to manage their effect on clients and the broader YANG ecosystem. This document defines the foundation of a flexible versioning solution. A companion document [I-D.ietf-netmod-yang-semver] extends this work by introducing a semantic versioning scheme. In addition, [I-D.ietf-netmod-yang-ver-selection] provides a schema selection scheme that can be used by clients to choose which schemas to use when interacting with a server from the available schema that are supported and advertised by the server. This builds on [I-D.ietf-netmod-yang-packages], which provides a mechanism to group sets of related YANG modules revisions together into so called YANG packages. Finally, [I-D.ietf-netmod-yang-schema-comparison] specifies an algorithm that can be used to compare two revisions of a YANG schema. * 3.4.1. File names - This looks like a SHOULD/MAY clash, what do you really suggest here? Better don't use RFC 2119 language if the guideline is kind of contradictory. ;-) YANG module (or submodule) files MAY be identified using either revision-date or revision-label. Typically, only one file name SHOULD exist for the same module (or submodule) revision. Two file names, one with the revision date and another with the revision label, MAY exist for the same module (or submodule) revision An implementation needs to be able to find the modules. If the revision date is the unique key used by imports, then probably the @ form needs to be there while the # form is nice to have? Well, I am not really sure what the text in the I-D suggests. Perhaps it says it SHMAY be implementation specific. ;-) If we want interoperability at the file name level, a clear and unambiguous baseline may be helpful. If we do not expect that, there is no need to write rules using RFC 2119 keywords. * 3.5. Examples for updating the YANG module revision history Assuming the 2.x line is backwards compatible but the 3.x line is not. How do I figure this out from the linear revision history sorted by dates? Is the idea that I always only have a single branch in the revision history in a module? Or can there be multiple branches documented? Can branches merge again? If I can include the history of multiple branches, is the idea that tools have to understand the semantics of the revision labels to reconstruct the revision history graph in order to make sense of the rev:non-backwards-compatible markers? The linear order could easily lead to misinterpretations, revision 2019-04-01 is BC but it would appear in chronological order after 2019-03-01, to which it is NBC. * 4. Import by derived revision I agree that import by revision or derived is better than import by revision and it would work great with the existing YANG module update rules. That said, I do not see how it will work great with update rules that allow BC and NBC updates. If we support richer update semantics, we will need richer mechanisms to express compatibility and it seems wrong to put that information into the YANG import statement. To me, it seems much more reasonable to maintain the compatibility contraints outside the module such that updates on the compatibility rules can be made without having to touch the YANG modules. To fully automate things, it might be desirable to actually tag the specific definitions that changed. When module A imports from B, it matters what A is using from B. Perhaps the idea is that algorithms compute this on the fly. I fear not all changes may be decidable to be either BC or NBC. Has it been considered to have markup at the statement level that provides details such as when something was added, when something had an NBC change etc? Once you have markup at that level, tools can decide whether an importing module is affected by changes in an imported module or not. It seems we are doing things backwards, we mark modules as having NBC changes and then tooling may try to figure out what the causes are. Would it not be easier to tag what has changed and then tooling can calculate the rest? I am not sure of this: The argument to the "revision-or-derived" extension statement is a revision date or a revision label. Why is it useful that the value can be a revision date or a revision label? I assume you also expect there to be a partial order on the labels, no? A particular revision of an imported module satisfies an import's "revision-or-derived" extension statement if the imported module's revision history contains a revision statement with a matching revision date or revision label. I am not sure, perhaps because I am not sure whether the revision history can reflect branches. If I say revision-or-derived 2.1.0, can I then get 3.0.0 (which is in a different branch)? Yes, revision-or-derived is what we should have had in YANG. I fail to see how it is useful in a versioning scheme that supports NBC changes and some level of branching. The "revision-or-derived" extension statement does not guarantee that all module revisions that satisfy an import statement are necessarily compatible; it only gives an indication that the revisions are more likely to be compatible. So how is this useful? The name "revision-or-derived" may be a misnomer, it seems you really have "none-before". The name "revision-or-derived" suggests a promise that is not really there. I believe compatibility constraints need maintenance and grow to get complex. Managing them inside of imports is in my view not a good and scalable idea. Adding, modifying or removing a "revision-or-derived" extension statement is considered to be a BC change. How can that be? Such changes fundamentally change how imports are resolved. Example 2 finally tells me by way of example what derived means. I suggest to define the notion of "derived" earlier. The example seems to suggest that derived is along the partial order induced by the version labeling scheme (and this means tools need to be able to reconstruct the versioning tree (can it be more than a strict tree?). If this document is expected to work with different versioning schemes, it seems this document needs to spell out which requirements a versioning scheme has to satisfy for this document to work properly (e.g., that there is a defined partial order on version labels). If a module import statement could resolve to more than one module revision defined in the datastore schema, and none of those revisions are implemented, then the import MUST resolve to the module revision with the latest revision date. Why has the latest revision date been chosen here? Just asking... And has this anything to do with the versioning work or was this just a convenient place to fix the ambiguity? * 5.1. Updates to ietf-yang-library Is this section here because it is essential to fix this ambiguity for the versioning work or is this here just because it was a convenient moment to fix this ambiguity? 7.1. Guidelines for YANG module authors [...] If all dependencies have been updated to not import specific revisions of a module, then the corresponding revision statements can be removed from that module. This seems to be somewhat pointless for open standard YANG modules since there is no effective procedure I can imagine to determine whether all dependencies have been updated. (Well, not sure what dependencies means, I assume it means there are no modules anymore importing a given revision.) 7.1.1. Making non-backwards-compatible changes to a YANG module o NBC changes can be sometimes be done incrementally using the "deprecated" status to provide clients time to adapt to NBC changes. Not sure what this means. Also note the double 'be'. o NBC changes are done at once, i.e. without using "status" statements. Depending on the change, this may have a big impact on clients. Not sure either, likely because I did not understand the previous item. The third bullet also leaves me a bit puzzled. It seems as if there is a relationship between NBC changes and status changes. If so, this may need to be spelled out more clearly. The detailed description of the "incremental" approach that follows is helpful. Perhaps the bullets can simply be removed and we keep the incremental approach as the suggested one? 8. Module Versioning Extension YANG Modules - Replace '\d{4}-\d{2}-\d{2}' with the pattern used in RFC6991bis (the \d does some surprising things, so I dropped it everywhere). - RFC6991bis introduces the type revision-identifier but given this work is getting stable it seems more logical to call the type revision-date. This is also the term RFC 7950 uses. And I think revision-date should be defined in ietf-yang-revisions and not in RFC6991bis. (I guess we once called it revision-identifier because there was no clear understanding yet that we will have a revision-date and a revision-label.) Note that dropping the definition of revision-identifier from RFC6991bis and defining a revision-date type in ietf-yang-revisions also causes the dependency on ietf-yang-types to go away. 9. Contributors - Typo 'Discussons' - Perhaps just list the names of the contributors comma separated instead of making this a longish list. 10. Security Considerations - I wonder whether confusion about versions can lead to exploitable vulnerabilities. If client and server disagree on the meaning of values, this may lead to exploitable situations. With the move to allow NBC changes, a server may implement different semantics for a given leaf and this probably deserves a warning. In a world where semantics of definitions can change, client and server need to be sure they work with compatible definitions. - Another scenario to mention could be a system provisioning NACM rules. Such a system may fail generating proper access control rules if there is ambiguity about the version of a YANG module implemented by the server for which NACM rules are provisioned. In fact, a system provisioning NACM rules may need to provision rules that continue to work even if client and server negotiate a version for their interactions. A. Examples of changes that are NBC - I believe enlarging the value set of a data node is allowed, the wording 'any changes that change or reduce the allowed value set' seems to disallow this. Perhaps you wanted to say 'any changes that reduce the allowed value set' instead? * RFC 7950 compatibility An RFC 7950 compliant implementation will treat import example-module { rev:revision-or-derived 2.0.0; } as if were import example-module; and hence it may import a revision that is not in the 2.0.0 branch. I believe this is a problem. An RFC 7950 implementation will also consider deprecate -> obsolete a legal BC change. I believe that changing the YANG RFC 7950 update rules fundamentally must be done in such a way that parsers not understanding the new rules fail instead of producing surprising results (e.g. by bumping the YANG version number.) Even if this document is implemented by a parser, the parser may get import example-module { rev:revision-or-derived omicron; } without knowing what the possible labels are and what the order relationship of them is. It seems that the revision-label-scheme statement has to be mandatory and a parser needs to stop if the announced revision-label-scheme is unknown to the parser. On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 12:20:34PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > > > All, > > This starts working group last call on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning/ > > The working group last call ends on March 7 th. > Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document > and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! > This is useful and important, even from authors. > > Please note that once WG Last call is complete, this document will be held > and submitted as a set with the other versioning documents (once they are > ready) for publication request to the IESG. > > Thank you, > Lou (Co-Chair & doc Shepherd) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Sun Mar 6 03:09:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0863A0BDD; 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Document: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-06 Date: 2022-03-06 * 1. Introduction s/for updating modules/for updating YANG modules/ s/extended [semver] rules/extended semantic versioning rules [semver]/ Thanks for the text pointing out that the semantic versioning specs change in non-backwards-compatible ways without bumping the version of the versioning specs. Its like saying "the truth about semantic versioning rules is that they are merely guidelines but not any hard rules". BTW, is it Semver or SemVer? And since this is not really SemVer, should there be an acronym that makes it clear that this is not really SemVer? * 3.1. YANG Semver Pattern It may be useful to spell out where you follow [semver] and where not. The _COMPAT suffix seems to be something new that I did not spot in [semver]. I am somewhat surprised by the _COMPAT suffix that can declare a patch update to be non-compatible. [semver] says that Z is for "backwards compatible bug fixes". If so, how can you have a backwards compatible bug fix that is not backwards compatible? * 3.2. Examples for YANG semantic versions Looking at the version number alone does not indicate ancestry. The module definition in "2.0.0", for example, does not contain all the contents of "1.3.0". Version "2.0.0" is not derived from "1.3.0". So how do we identify branching points? How do I tell that 2.0.0 was derived from 1.2.0? If we can't construct the order from the version labels, will not some of things in the versioning document break, in particular if I throw a bunch of _non_compatible suffixes into the mix as well? What is the reason that we talk about "editorial updates" instead of "bug fixes" (which seems to be the [semver] terminology)? Even worse, how can 'editorial updates' be _non_compatible? I understand that SemVer fails to work well once you have not a single development line (where all NBC changes go into the next major number increase) but you have to maintain multiple development lines where each development line can have NBC changes within it. In short, you would need SemVers for each development line. It seems this document acknowledges that multiple development lines exist but then proposes to handle this reality by collapsing entire development lines into _non_compatible markers for series of patches. * 6. YANG Module rev:revision-label "1.0.0-draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-05"; This is wrong, we are already at -06. ;-) I guess these revision labels will be commonly wrong if they need to be updated manually and we have no tooling in place to verify consistency. * 7. Contributors - Typo 'Discussons' - Perhaps just list the names of the contributors comma separated instead of making this a longish list. * 9.1. YANG Module Registrations The ietf-yang-semver module defines the prefix 'ysver' but the IANA section suggests to register 'yangver'. Why not simply 'semver'? The 'rev' prefix also does not start with a 'y'. Anyway, whatever is picked, the prefix and the IANA registration should be consistent. On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 12:20:38PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > All, > > This starts working group last call on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver/ > > The working group last call ends on March 7 th. > Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document > and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! > This is useful and important, even from authors. > > Please note that once WG Last call is complete, this document will be held > and submitted as a set with the other versioning documents (once they are > ready) for publication request to the IESG. > > Thank you, > Lou (Co-Chair & doc Shepherd) > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Mar 7 05:43:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7C23A1012 for ; 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Plus the units approach? > > +1 > > How about adding decimal64 as an option? Then 10.5 is solved. > The problem is that someone suggested to have a percent type. Then I investigated which types are in use and they differ widely in their range, the underlying type etc. And yes, decimals would make things worse. Personally, I feel this is a somewhat pointless type to have since there is not much of value in having common percent types. I conclude that there is no consensus on the percentage types and hence I will remove them; it is easy to create a percent type where it is needed or to import the percentage type from ietf-routing-types if that fits the purpose. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Mar 7 08:03:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3303A1186; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:03:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <164666898776.26297.6182247841639067809@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:03:07 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 16:03:16 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : Common YANG Data Types Author : Juergen Schoenwaelder Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: This document defines a collection of common data types to be used with the YANG data modeling language. This document obsoletes RFC 6991. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 08:11:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCBC3A0CF7 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:11:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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I have also removed the revision-identifier type since it is better defined in the YANG versioning module (and it should be called revision-date and not revision-identifier). This change was not suggested during the last call, I only noticed that this definition could be moved while reviewing the YANG versioning I-Ds over the weekend. This change probably requires a check with the WG. (If we were to put it back, I would still suggest to call it revision-date as this is also how this thing is called in RFC 7950). /js On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 11:34:19PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > Thank you everyone that participated, the Last Call for this draft is closed successfully! > > Authors, please let the chairs know when the issues have been resolved and the draft is ready to be progressed for IESG review. > > Kent > > > > > On Feb 3, 2022, at 9:54 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > Dear NETMOD WG, > > > > This message begins a two-week WGLC for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 ending on Friday, February 18th. Here is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11.html > > > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time. > > > > Thank you, > > Kent (as co-chair) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Mar 7 15:05:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28A73A111E; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:05:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 08:52:41 -0000 Hi, While reviewing draft-ietf-opsawg-sap-02, I had to study the type inet:uri again. I assume that the type "uri" is supposed to mean the type that is defined by the ABNF rule "URI" in RFC 3986. If my assumption is correct I think we should make this clear in 6991bis. If my assumption is not correct, then we definitely should add some text that describes what is meant. Since (?) inet:uri is defined simply as "string" w/o any pattern, some RFCs have been published with URIs such as "D1" and "1-0-1" (RFC 8345). /martin From nobody Tue Mar 8 01:02:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299803A0A71 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 01:02:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQrhez_G-ZXn for ; 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People on the Internet tried to literally capture the ABNF rules of RFC 3986 leading to regular expression monsters. I am open for concrete suggestions. ;-) /js On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 09:52:23AM +0100, Martin Björklund wrote: > Hi, > > While reviewing draft-ietf-opsawg-sap-02, I had to study the type > inet:uri again. > > I assume that the type "uri" is supposed to mean the type that is > defined by the ABNF rule "URI" in RFC 3986. If my assumption is > correct I think we should make this clear in 6991bis. If my > assumption is not correct, then we definitely should add some text > that describes what is meant. > > Since (?) inet:uri is defined simply as "string" w/o any pattern, some > RFCs have been published with URIs such as "D1" and "1-0-1" (RFC > 8345). > > > > /martin -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 8 02:21:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60CB3A0780 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 02:21:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 8 Mar 2022 05:20:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 11:20:57 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20220308.112057.1061584807956330336.id@4668.se> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: kent+ietf@watsen.net, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <20220308090156.4pmggby2jvew25ll@anna> References: <20220307161053.old2vgmopuyhxvla@anna> <20220308.095223.147674740748964741.id@4668.se> <20220308090156.4pmggby2jvew25ll@anna> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:21:15 -0000 Hi, You didn't answer my first question about what we actually mean - do we mean the "URI" I agree with you re the problem with pattern in this case. The simplest pattern would be: pattern "[a-z][a-z0-9+.-]*:.*"; // matches the mandatory scheme but I think you will say that either we have a complete correct pattern, or no pattern at all ;-) /martin J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wrote: > Martin, > = > the problem is finding a pattern that is guaranteed to not exclude > anything valid and which is simple enough to be understood and put in= > a YANG module. People on the Internet tried to literally capture the > ABNF rules of RFC 3986 leading to regular expression monsters. > = > I am open for concrete suggestions. ;-) > = > /js > = > On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 09:52:23AM +0100, Martin Bj=F6rklund wrote: > > Hi, > > = > > While reviewing draft-ietf-opsawg-sap-02, I had to study the type > > inet:uri again. > > = > > I assume that the type "uri" is supposed to mean the type that is > > defined by the ABNF rule "URI" in RFC 3986. If my assumption is > > correct I think we should make this clear in 6991bis. If my > > assumption is not correct, then we definitely should add some text > > that describes what is meant. > > = > > Since (?) inet:uri is defined simply as "string" w/o any pattern, s= ome > > RFCs have been published with URIs such as "D1" and "1-0-1" (RFC > > 8345). > > = > > = > > = > > /martin > = > -- = > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 8 03:00:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A5E3A0B82 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 03:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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[...]" STD 66 resolves to RFC 3986. Maybe I do not understand your question. > I agree with you re the problem with pattern in this case. > > The simplest pattern would be: > > pattern "[a-z][a-z0-9+.-]*:.*"; // matches the mandatory scheme > > but I think you will say that either we have a complete correct > pattern, or no pattern at all ;-) I personally do not believe that a pattern needs to catch every nuance. The only requirement is that a pattern must not reject any valid values. For me, the description ultimately defines the type and a pattern merely helps to catch some of the syntactic details in an automated fashion. My experience is that people have different ideas about how many details a pattern should capture and hence pattern have a tendency to grow increasingly complex over time. I am happy to add the proposed pattern since covering the scheme part is apparently better than having nothing (but I am sure this will be the beginning of a journey and not its end). /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 8 03:12:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408EF3A0C70 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 03:12:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 8 Mar 2022 06:12:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 12:12:36 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20220308.121236.2003596445605127644.id@4668.se> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: kent+ietf@watsen.net, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <20220308110018.57eghbqywn3shsh4@anna> References: <20220308090156.4pmggby2jvew25ll@anna> <20220308.112057.1061584807956330336.id@4668.se> <20220308110018.57eghbqywn3shsh4@anna> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 11:12:52 -0000 J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wrote: > On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 11:20:57AM +0100, Martin Bj=F6rklund wrote: > > Hi, > > = > > You didn't answer my first question about what we actually mean - d= o > > we mean the "URI" > = > "The uri type represents a Uniform Resource Identifier > (URI) as defined by STD 66. [...]" > = > STD 66 resolves to RFC 3986. Maybe I do not understand your question.= RFC 3986 defines the syntax for "URI" and "URI-reference", see specifically section 4 and 4.1 of RFC 3986. To avoid confusion, I suggest: "The uri type represents a Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) as defined by the rule 'URI' in RFC 3986. or "the ABNF rule 'URI'..." (side note, is it better to refer to STD 66 rather than the RFC?) /martin > = > > I agree with you re the problem with pattern in this case. > > = > > The simplest pattern would be: > > = > > pattern "[a-z][a-z0-9+.-]*:.*"; // matches the mandatory sche= me > > = > > but I think you will say that either we have a complete correct > > pattern, or no pattern at all ;-) > = > I personally do not believe that a pattern needs to catch every > nuance. The only requirement is that a pattern must not reject any > valid values. For me, the description ultimately defines the type and= > a pattern merely helps to catch some of the syntactic details in an > automated fashion. > = > My experience is that people have different ideas about how many > details a pattern should capture and hence pattern have a tendency to= > grow increasingly complex over time. > = > I am happy to add the proposed pattern since covering the scheme part= > is apparently better than having nothing (but I am sure this will be > the beginning of a journey and not its end). > = > /js > = > -- = > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 8 03:25:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC013A08CF for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 03:25:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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[...]" > > > > STD 66 resolves to RFC 3986. Maybe I do not understand your question. > > RFC 3986 defines the syntax for "URI" and "URI-reference", see > specifically section 4 and 4.1 of RFC 3986. To avoid confusion, I > suggest: > > "The uri type represents a Uniform Resource Identifier > (URI) as defined by the rule 'URI' in RFC 3986. > > or "the ABNF rule 'URI'..." OK > (side note, is it better to refer to STD 66 rather than the RFC?) I have no idea. Since this is the only usage of STD in the document (ignoring the references), I am fine to replace it with an RFC reference. (The description has been "inherited" from the Uri TC description in RFC 5017 and it used STD 66.) /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 8 05:07:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915CC3A15C4 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 05:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Mar 2022 15:51:49.6605 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TMfyDczgb+NFC2/w7tuPjB4gG0clHPaLauf0eZvBP2vU+yQhjadkISna5R8Pl7cR9FvpjEsJARDZNiOxJjb/rw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3797 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.20, xbe-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 15:52:01 -0000 Thanks for your comments and feedback, J=FCrgen. Some of these changes=0A= have been done in git whereas others have had issues opened for more=0A= discussion and work. Based on other responses, we will create a new=0A= revision of the I-D after the window opens.=0A= =0A= See below for specific replies.=0A= =0A= On 3/6/22 06:10, J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder wrote:=0A= > Hi,=0A= >=0A= > below is my last call review.=0A= >=0A= > Document: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-06=0A= > Date: 2022-03-06=0A= >=0A= > * 1. Introduction=0A= >=0A= > s/for updating modules/for updating YANG modules/=0A= >=0A= > s/extended [semver] rules/extended semantic versioning rules [semver]/= =0A= =0A= Thanks. Fixed in git.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > Thanks for the text pointing out that the semantic versioning specs=0A= > change in non-backwards-compatible ways without bumping the version=0A= > of the versioning specs. Its like saying "the truth about semantic=0A= > versioning rules is that they are merely guidelines but not any hard=0A= > rules".=0A= =0A= Ah, irony.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > BTW, is it Semver or SemVer? And since this is not really SemVer,=0A= > should there be an acronym that makes it clear that this is not=0A= > really SemVer?=0A= =0A= We went with SemVer as you raise a good point about this being tied to a=0A= name. We raised issue #139 to track additional changes to add=0A= clarification about how our scheme deviates.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > * 3.1. YANG Semver Pattern=0A= >=0A= > It may be useful to spell out where you follow [semver] and where=0A= > not. The _COMPAT suffix seems to be something new that I did not=0A= > spot in [semver].=0A= =0A= Issue #140 was added to clarify what is unique to YANG Semver.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > I am somewhat surprised by the _COMPAT suffix that can declare a=0A= > patch update to be non-compatible. [semver] says that Z is for=0A= > "backwards compatible bug fixes". If so, how can you have a=0A= > backwards compatible bug fix that is not backwards compatible?=0A= =0A= This is key to YANG Semver. This will also be covered by issue #140. =0A= The need for this _COMPAT prefix was to handle limited branching and,=0A= going back to the overall requirements, provide a means to indicate when=0A= NBC changes had been made.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > * 3.2. Examples for YANG semantic versions=0A= >=0A= > Looking at the version number alone does not indicate ancestry. The= =0A= > module definition in "2.0.0", for example, does not contain all the= =0A= > contents of "1.3.0". Version "2.0.0" is not derived from "1.3.0".= =0A= >=0A= > So how do we identify branching points? How do I tell that 2.0.0 was=0A= > derived from 1.2.0? If we can't construct the order from the version=0A= > labels, will not some of things in the versioning document break, in=0A= > particular if I throw a bunch of _non_compatible suffixes into the=0A= > mix as well?=0A= =0A= It is not intended to construct a lineage from the YANG Semver revision=0A= labels in and of themselves. One cannot really do that with base=0A= SemVer, either. For example, in base SemVer you might have=0A= 1.0.0>1.1.0>1.2.0>2.0.0, and then release a 1.3.0 off of 1.2.0. You=0A= cannot say that 2.0.0 encompasses the changes in 1.3.0.=0A= =0A= The intent of the revision-label is two-fold. One, you can use it as a=0A= naming alias to anchor the revision-label to a specific revision. From=0A= there, you work backwards based on the YANG module versioning work to=0A= determine the lineage (i.e., construct the order).=0A= =0A= The other purpose is to provide a hint to a consumer that NBC changes=0A= may have occurred in the module and require further analysis (some of=0A= which can be done via the forthcoming tooling draft).=0A= =0A= >=0A= > What is the reason that we talk about "editorial updates" instead of=0A= > "bug fixes" (which seems to be the [semver] terminology)? Even worse,= =0A= > how can 'editorial updates' be _non_compatible?=0A= =0A= Raised #141 to clarify this. We feel "editorial updates" is the right=0A= terminology given that bug fixes in YANG would tend to be at the MINOR=0A= or MAJOR levels.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > I understand that SemVer fails to work well once you have not a=0A= > single development line (where all NBC changes go into the next=0A= > major number increase) but you have to maintain multiple development=0A= > lines where each development line can have NBC changes within it.=0A= > In short, you would need SemVers for each development line. It seems=0A= > this document acknowledges that multiple development lines exist but=0A= > then proposes to handle this reality by collapsing entire=0A= > development lines into _non_compatible markers for series of=0A= > patches.=0A= =0A= Yes. To support the limited branching, this was what was worked out. =0A= There is text to discourage needing to use _non_compatible, but we know=0A= in reality those NBC changes will occur. The stickiness will at least=0A= provide that operator hint to do more analysis to determine the changes=0A= and if they are relevant.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > * 6. YANG Module=0A= >=0A= > rev:revision-label "1.0.0-draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-05";=0A= >=0A= > This is wrong, we are already at -06. ;-) I guess these revision=0A= > labels will be commonly wrong if they need to be updated manually=0A= > and we have no tooling in place to verify consistency.=0A= =0A= This was on purpose. As with revision date, we are not bumping the YANG=0A= Semver label if the module itself has not changed. That said, we raised=0A= #142 to add more clarification here.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > * 7. Contributors=0A= >=0A= > - Typo 'Discussons'=0A= >=0A= > - Perhaps just list the names of the contributors comma separated=0A= > instead of making this a longish list.=0A= =0A= Fixed and fixed.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > * 9.1. YANG Module Registrations=0A= >=0A= > The ietf-yang-semver module defines the prefix 'ysver' but the IANA=0A= > section suggests to register 'yangver'. Why not simply 'semver'? The=0A= > 'rev' prefix also does not start with a 'y'. Anyway, whatever is=0A= > picked, the prefix and the IANA registration should be consistent.=0A= =0A= Ugh. This was one me. We had some last-minute discussion around=0A= prefix, and I missed changing the IANA section. It is done now in git.=0A= =0A= As for the choice, we are sticking with ysver to avoid any confusion=0A= that this is the base semver.=0A= =0A= Joe=0A= =0A= From nobody Tue Mar 8 16:12:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37913A067B; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:12:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=labn.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVBUy3OOg-az; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam10on20726.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:7e88::726]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B92CF3A0658; 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A draft agenda is now available. Please let us know if we missed a request. Presenters: Please provide your slides to the chairs not later than Sunday March 20th. Authors of WG documents: If you are not on the agenda , please send a update on status and plans for the document no later than Monday March 21. Thank you, Lou and Kent (and Joel) Agenda for the NETMOD 113 WG Session ------------------------------------------------------- https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/agenda-113-netmod Session: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 Session II (10:00-12:00 +1 CET, 09:00-11:00 UTC) WG Chairs: Lou Berger (lberger at labs dot net) Kent Watsen (kent plus ietf at watsen dot net) Joel Jaeggli (joelja at bogus dot com) Available During Session: ICS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/sessions/netmod.ics MeetEcho: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf113/?group=netmod Audio Only: https://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf113/netmod/1.m3u Jabber:xmpp:netmod@jabber.ietf.org?join Available During and After Session: Notes: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-113-netmod Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/session/netmod Drafts (TGZ): https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/agenda/netmod-drafts.tgz Drafts (PDF): https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/agenda/netmod-drafts.pdf Available After Session: Recording: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf113/recordings#NETMOD Jabber Logs: https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/netmod Introduction Chairs (10 minutes) Session Intro & WG Status Chartered items: Title: YANG Versioning Update (45 min) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-packages-03 Discussion Leader: TBD Title: Self Describing Data Object Tags (10 min) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-node-tags-06 Presenter: Qin Wu Non-Chartered items: Title: System-defined configuration (15 min) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 Presenter: Qiufang Ma Title: Immutable Metadata Annotation (15 min) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 Presenter: Qiufang Ma Title: Updated Common YANG Data Types for Traffic Engineering (10 min) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-busi-teas-te-types-update-01 Presenter: Italo Busi From nobody Wed Mar 9 01:58:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734553A0891; 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Some of these changes > have been done in git whereas others have had issues opened for more > discussion and work. Based on other responses, we will create a new > revision of the I-D after the window opens. [...] > > * 3.2. Examples for YANG semantic versions > > > > Looking at the version number alone does not indicate ancestry. The > > module definition in "2.0.0", for example, does not contain all the > > contents of "1.3.0". Version "2.0.0" is not derived from "1.3.0". > > > > So how do we identify branching points? How do I tell that 2.0.0 was > > derived from 1.2.0? If we can't construct the order from the version > > labels, will not some of things in the versioning document break, in > > particular if I throw a bunch of _non_compatible suffixes into the > > mix as well? > > It is not intended to construct a lineage from the YANG Semver revision > labels in and of themselves. One cannot really do that with base > SemVer, either. For example, in base SemVer you might have > 1.0.0>1.1.0>1.2.0>2.0.0, and then release a 1.3.0 off of 1.2.0. You > cannot say that 2.0.0 encompasses the changes in 1.3.0. > > The intent of the revision-label is two-fold. One, you can use it as a > naming alias to anchor the revision-label to a specific revision. From > there, you work backwards based on the YANG module versioning work to > determine the lineage (i.e., construct the order). > > The other purpose is to provide a hint to a consumer that NBC changes > may have occurred in the module and require further analysis (some of > which can be done via the forthcoming tooling draft). If some module depends on some feature defined in x.y.z, then you need to be able to tell whether version X.Y.Z is a descendant of x.y.z. If the information about descendants can't be recovered from the revision label markups, then which value do the revision labels have? Is the answer that the truth comes out of some complicated tooling? /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Mar 9 02:16:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20013A0A4E for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 02:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id exPNZwtqvFdE for ; 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We still seem to believe that having compatibility constraints embedded in module imports are a workable solution even though we acknowledge future breaking changes. - We push for a reasonably complex algorithm to calculate deltas of YANG module revisions to let users of modules to determine the real impact of module updates on their work. I wonder why we not consider the opposite approach, namely to have author making NBC changes to document them right where the changes are. If authors would write something like leaf foo { nbc-change "2022-03-01" { description "changed type from int32 to string"; }; // ... } then tool and humans can easily figure out in which revision NBC changes occured and if they affect a certain usage of the module. Instead of simply properly documenting the changes, we invent fuzzy version numbers and complex algorithms to reverse engineer the facts that could have easily been documented by whoever makes the change. If the reason is that developers do not document their changes, then go and develop tools to force them to document their changes. I do not think it is fair to simply push the pain to the users of YANG modules. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Mar 9 10:13:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2428D3A1083 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:13:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vketMUMsNfWZ for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-x1135.google.com (mail-yw1-x1135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F3F93A109F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1135.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2dc28791ecbso32574197b3.4 for ; Wed, 09 Mar 2022 10:12:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2qmWD/SE0jXrrTGvz9tj4QIPtwegZu3GHufr6HqAdZ8=; b=ELVQ59dPYkzOiZu/GS0Xu6RBcNq2QypmkaRyiHGzPF2cNyvOdzTyUvHDMoYmEKsiWQ k/seiNd9aJAq90ExXPbUBr5bqYjLQ+MAjCWH95yQwX4QXGXCecqOD0mSy8IY3Uaketzz wdenUYYXc8b+wJfeKoWX55jBSfAOH2peZ+CwwliM6ZYuBY6yyRyt2OzoQWc2+GlqanMY eBuWpnNF89w2uNWE5veNAxHHgK4zlR8D2tmWVG/1S55Xlg6NwiGXBCIJ8MpcH6R7LrSn zzyFyzd+G9O3TWuGXe3bvSEwNCfm+wXIPuyFY6VbZyRK7rs0nmGyVndy5ecwFaF3d1Q5 KzTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=2qmWD/SE0jXrrTGvz9tj4QIPtwegZu3GHufr6HqAdZ8=; b=rBP+Ikgh0pV7ghLeYwY2sJs76mTd8UnBDmnGNfkgtzp9qI5fWsNIBrmA9IYe9w07PO Fls225hFuYohmQrpQF7JwgLBL0vzoU/11OeOYpcAoyYlnPNw3UaX/9bHwksjCtPWEPdE 1MIvR2efSPCHVWVoagtWZpNaxFDnv42RM2/fJB9b+AtzBJ9ZvF6DCjVUrO+YY+hfJ4r/ 1zw8VPoWsUCQqO5ZDVm/ULJNuu3geEfUVWRVF6CCAWu0IDoXqfr8D1DknlTozvlnMXZx Dih1vpC8xvLjpzcDlMNBQORDvARh6C7U0QM7qHWhgiAxdWxYqMshRjwqhBHnRwV/Bfnw uTSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532uhhKH4JG3FklkcvBf8UCLl/xoyrru8JUSK9oQHwDC0qPvdfEO TnIQgr1I3eUSTDa2MXXHGyNnwFP6/TQOBLn1GOLCRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2Z4qz46OmvIfGtS9b9PdLrAOIsn9L6jjOPFBu3lr0OBpELWjOQ7+PcXhMOS8q+U4i/pnOkqg1IHjpSSheR6c= X-Received: by 2002:a81:7189:0:b0:2dc:53e2:88bb with SMTP id m131-20020a817189000000b002dc53e288bbmr949425ywc.110.1646849574525; Wed, 09 Mar 2022 10:12:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220309101609.d33knxlhyq62wejq@anna> In-Reply-To: <20220309101609.d33knxlhyq62wejq@anna> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:12:43 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e371bd05d9cd0b2c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] yang versioning solution complexity and alternative approaches X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:13:01 -0000 --000000000000e371bd05d9cd0b2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 2:16 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > Hi, > > the YANG versioning solution appears to be complex. > > strongly agree. There are many new procedures (for using extensions) that are not likely to be adopted outside of the IETF/ There was a valid original problem statement related to release trains. This is the first disconnect. The problem is related to software release trains. Vendors do not release YANG modules. The release software that contains and implements YANG modules. Multiple release trains can lead to 2 problems (that are currently handled by the implementation) 1) most recent release date for a module may not be the latest in all software release trains This affects "import-without-revision" for a client that tries to use the most recent revision 2) the same [name, date] tuple may be used in multiple release trains. This affects the YANG library and . The solution for (1) is problematic because extensions are used and a YANG 1.1 compliant tool MAY ignore ANY extension. I support a better import-stmt, but this should be done in a new YANG version so it is not optional to implement. The solution for (2) is not workable (as pointed out, it could take 5 days to release a change), and the different revision dates add complexity and do not work if import-by-revision is used. A great deal of effort is spent identifying that an NBC change occurred. IMO it is not useful at the module level. It would be useful at the object level, but at a significant module maintenance cost. > - We introduce version numbers that smell a bit like SemVers but then > are not really SemVer. > > This is very important. IMO it will do harm to interoperability to have 2 SemVer schemes in use. The early drafts said the OpenConfig SemVer 2.0 would be used. > - We have no solution to do meaningful things with these version > numbers, it does not even seem to be possible to decide whether > X.Y.Z derives from x.y.z or not. We still seem to believe that > having compatibility constraints embedded in module imports are a > workable solution even though we acknowledge future breaking > changes. > We have no plans whatsoever to write code that uses the NBC extensions. The module revisions have to be compared and the real changes have to be evaluated against real use-cases and real applications. Since the tooling has to do all the work anyway, having a "this module changed" flag is not really useful. > > - We push for a reasonably complex algorithm to calculate deltas of > YANG module revisions to let users of modules to determine the real > impact of module updates on their work. > > The semver is trying to characterize changes to the YANG module and also seems to try to identify the software release train containing the module. I wonder why we not consider the opposite approach, namely to have > author making NBC changes to document them right where the changes > are. If authors would write something like > > leaf foo { > nbc-change "2022-03-01" { > description "changed type from int32 to string"; > }; > // ... > } > > This is more work but also more useful. I am confused about the revision updates for work-in-progress. IMO there SHOULD NOT be any revision tracking from I-D to I-D. This would be total noise and way too much work. Consider the client-server groupings, which had constant NBC changes across 27 revisions of the drafts. I-Ds currently reuse the same revision-stmt over and over in an update I-D, just changing the date. Maintaining a semver label throughout this process is a waste of time. There is also no way to tell that a 1.x.x release is a work-in-progress. It is clear for 0.x.x only. There is no easy way to identify a release as "published" or "unpublished", especially since YANG modules are extracted from the source document. > then tool and humans can easily figure out in which revision NBC > changes occured and if they affect a certain usage of the module. > > Instead of simply properly documenting the changes, we invent fuzzy > version numbers and complex algorithms to reverse engineer the facts > that could have easily been documented by whoever makes the change. > Some vendors actually avoid making NBC changes to their APIs. IMO this IETF work is trying to normalize bad engineering practice. The past WG (people creating YANG 1.0 and YANG 1.1) felt quite strongly that changing the type of a leaf was something that should not be allowed. > If the reason is that developers do not document their changes, then > go and develop tools to force them to document their changes. I do not > think it is fair to simply push the pain to the users of YANG modules. > > 1 more comment: Errata not integrated: Most organizations publish corrected documents when mistakes are found, but not the IETF. Instead the WEB page will have a link "Errata Exists". It is up to the reader to notice it, read all the errata, apply all the changes manually, and maintain their own private copy of the RFC. This is especially bad for extracted YANG modules. For example there is no way to create a revision label (or date string) tha= t indicates that this is [ietf-netconf-notifications, 2012-02-06] + Errata 3957. Vendors just hack the incorrect RFC version of the module. It would be quite useful to have corrected YANG modules when errors are found. Even the YANG repos simply maintain the uncorrected versions. /js > > Andy > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000e371bd05d9cd0b2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 2:16 AM J=C3= =BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
Hi,

the YANG versioning solution appears to be complex.


strongly agree.

There are many new procedures (for using extensions) that are not likely= to
be adopted outside of the IETF/

Ther= e was a valid original problem statement related to release trains.
This is the first disconnect. The problem is related to software release= trains.
Vendors do not release YANG modules. The release softwar= e that contains and
implements YANG modules.

=
Multiple release trains can lead to 2 problems (that are currently han= dled by=C2=A0the implementation)

1) most recent re= lease date for a module may not be the latest in all software release train= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This affects "import-without-revision" = for a client that tries to use the most recent revision

2) the same [name, date] tuple may be used in multiple release trains= .
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This affects the YANG library and <get-schema&g= t;.

The solution for (1) is problematic because ex= tensions are used and a YANG 1.1 compliant
tool MAY ignore ANY ex= tension. I support a better import-stmt, but this should be
done = in a new YANG version so it is not optional to implement.

The solution for (2) is not workable (as pointed out, it could take= 5 days to release a change),
and the different revision dates ad= d complexity and do not work if import-by-revision is used.

<= /div>
A great deal of effort is spent identifying that an NBC change oc= curred.
IMO it is not useful at the module level.=C2=A0 It would = be useful at the object level,
but at a significant module mainte= nance cost.


=C2=A0
- We introduce version numbers that smell a bit like SemVers but then
=C2=A0 are not really SemVer.



This is very important.=
IMO it will do harm to interoperability to have 2 SemVer schemes= in use.
The early drafts said the OpenConfig SemVer 2.0 would be= used.

=C2=A0
- We have no solution to do meaningful things with these version
=C2=A0 numbers, it does not even seem to be possible to decide whether
=C2=A0 X.Y.Z derives from x.y.z or not. We still seem to believe that
=C2=A0 having compatibility constraints embedded in module imports are a =C2=A0 workable solution even though we acknowledge future breaking
=C2=A0 changes.


We have = no plans whatsoever to write code that uses the NBC extensions.
T= he module revisions have to be compared and the real changes have to
<= div>be evaluated against real use-cases and real applications.=C2=A0 Since = the tooling
has to do all the work anyway, having a "this mo= dule changed" flag is not really useful.

=C2= =A0

- We push for a reasonably complex algorithm to calculate deltas of
=C2=A0 YANG module revisions to let users of modules to determine the real<= br> =C2=A0 impact of module updates on their work.



The semver is trying to= characterize changes to the YANG module and also
seems to try to= identify the software release train containing the module.

<= /div>
I wonder why we not consider the opposite approach, namely to have
author making NBC changes to document them right where the changes
are. If authors would write something like

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf foo {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 nbc-change "2022-03-01" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description "changed type from int3= 2 to string";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 };
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }



This is more work but a= lso more useful.

I am confused about the revision = updates for work-in-progress.
IMO there SHOULD NOT be any revisio= n tracking from I-D to I-D.
This would be total noise and way too= much work.
Consider the client-server groupings, which had const= ant NBC changes
across 27 revisions of the drafts.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I-Ds currently reuse the same revision-stmt over and= over in an update I-D,
just changing the date.=C2=A0 Maintaining= a semver label throughout this process
is a waste of time.
=

There is also no way to tell that a 1.x.x release is a = work-in-progress.
It is clear for 0.x.x=C2=A0 only.
There is no easy way to identify a release as "published&q= uot; or "unpublished",
especially since YANG modules ar= e extracted from the source document.



=C2=A0
then tool and humans can easily figure out in which revision NBC
changes occured and if they affect a certain usage of the module.

Instead of simply properly documenting the changes, we invent fuzzy
version numbers and complex algorithms to reverse engineer the facts
that could have easily been documented by whoever makes the change.

Some vendors actually avoid making NBC changes= to their APIs.
IMO this IETF work is trying to normalize bad eng= ineering practice.=C2=A0
The past WG (people creating YANG 1.0 an= d YANG 1.1) felt quite strongly
that changing the type of a leaf = was something that should not be allowed.


If the reason is that developers do not document their changes, then
go and develop tools to force them to document their changes. I do not
think it is fair to simply push the pain to the users of YANG modules.



1 more comment:

Errata not integrated:

Most orga= nizations publish corrected documents when mistakes are found, but not the = IETF.
Instead the WEB page will have a link "Errata Exists&q= uot;.=C2=A0 It is up to the reader to notice it,
read all the err= ata, apply all the changes manually, and maintain their own private copy
of the RFC.

This is especially bad for ext= racted YANG modules.
For example there is no way to create a revi= sion label (or date string) that
indicates that this is=C2=A0 [ie= tf-netconf-notifications,=C2=A02012-02-06]=C2=A0+ Errata 3957.
Vendors just hack the incorrect RFC ver= sion of the module.
It would be quite useful to have corrected YANG modules when= errors are found.
Even the YANG repos simply maintain the uncorrected ve= rsions.


/js


Andy
=C2=A0
--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
--000000000000e371bd05d9cd0b2c-- From nobody Wed Mar 9 13:56:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090843A0E38 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 56pS6CILHXr7 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55DDE3A0E22 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4462C427C643; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PsrafZxgONKi; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.16] (cpe-76-95-228-63.socal.res.rr.com [76.95.228.63]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C6C7425C194; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Chris Smiley In-Reply-To: <20220222073124.49667F0FBA@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:56:03 -0800 Cc: RFC Errata System Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <30B483EC-722D-4380-8781-38313927C891@amsl.com> References: <20220222073124.49667F0FBA@rfc-editor.org> To: kokkiknamtan42@gmail.com, mbj@tail-f.com, lhotka@nic.cz, netmod@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8528 (6857) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 21:56:10 -0000 Greetings, EID 6857 is almost identical to EID 5797. They differ in the enabled = field (one says true, one says false). Please let me know which errata = is correct. Thank you. RFC Editor/cs > On Feb 21, 2022, at 11:31 PM, RFC Errata System = wrote: >=20 > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8528, > "YANG Schema Mount". >=20 > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6857 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > Type: Editorial > Reported by: Kokkiknamtan >=20 > Section: A.2 >=20 > Original Text > ------------- > { > "ietf-interfaces:interfaces": { > "interface": [ > { > "name": "eth0", > "type": "iana-if-type:ethernetCsmacd", > "enabled": false, > "ietf-logical-network-element:bind-lne-name": "eth0" > } > ] > }, >=20 >=20 > Corrected Text > -------------- > { > "ietf-interfaces:interfaces": { > "interface": [ > { > "name": "eth0", > "type": "iana-if-type:ethernetCsmacd", > "enabled": false, > "ietf-logical-network-element:bind-lne-name": "lne-1" > } > ] > }, >=20 >=20 > Notes > ----- > leafref is for an LNE name, not an interface name >=20 > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party =20 > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > RFC8528 (draft-ietf-netmod-schema-mount-12) > -------------------------------------- > Title : YANG Schema Mount > Publication Date : March 2019 > Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, L. Lhotka > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Network Modeling > Area : Operations and Management > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG >=20 From nobody Wed Mar 9 23:20:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EE43A0CAD for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 23:20:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=4668.se header.b=xXawwY+p; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=CFtH8ixM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IuAMk3u87Ews for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 23:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF8343A0902 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 23:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E68B32006F2; Thu, 10 Mar 2022 02:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 10 Mar 2022 02:20:06 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=4668.se; h=cc:cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; bh=m70uDyo3Y6G1Y5 vEPtM7gaA9mheT9g3SukOlSjIlXqg=; b=xXawwY+pRggFgMleJtWnoHctt1O7v9 vpzc4ezzNJfPt2OcyfaVhP5dBhyK7jJRkTVomPoaY+qltqbWrPGZZRZy6e+XzUl3 QIaawxfWBNIkEr8avbjb0MS5X0FUIC0wn+3Cdv18dheQ1vk1sGz1KjdEtm3294qd tSSjifxXHUjhT1NN7ENqODzptKbz9T3k9ZoiPsXCKNq0W4Z5p2b48Z36zS9co+pY hECHGOZWwA02rXmcXR9LdiXE2+SSHt2yOn4SDdkm9h8mEl78exu4/dhdqlB+DQF8 QTEomu9ObklCI/Dmwok6rV7R3h7RujFHwhdJsNa5zPydF4bcStPTedCg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=m70uDyo3Y6G1Y5vEPtM7gaA9mheT9g3SukOlSjIlX qg=; b=CFtH8ixM/g6LA/cFI9LYgGqhl4pMT8Z6b2LIyismxEa0In8ILkTwaFwQ2 q5ybbtD4IEzYsCmW195TGxvlDPKqqLRnXV9zLDlql0jX8af68pesTZ0ORaNGD3ui fAj7FmL5QZsekKTz+HXqv62PY09YQS1/c2Arez6NrQ0b4z2chiYdhqjIz5zLLTXi t07E3dJCpZ74ljGwg7M/w0dzYt+UiPDhRVqBBxMG+ACXmRfAJ9WvSo1PqaQ9IsqP S7k0tz1nGWKl4l2nl+g84vasj4Yl/wMNiMke0VDbX1KOp6uZwzUpiPgeBg7yhWR7 s3N+H5nk2R0qsEtmCHusn4f5D+Idw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudduledguddtjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffkvffuhfgjfhfogggtgfesth ejredtredtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhtihhnuceujhpnrhhklhhunhguuceomhgsjhdo ihgvthhfseegieeikedrshgvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeufeffudegveffhedtud ekledvgffffedugfethfegieevtddtvdefteefffefjeenucffohhmrghinheprhhftgdq vgguihhtohhrrdhorhhgpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtne curfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmsghjodhivghtfhesgeeiieekrdhsvg X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 10 Mar 2022 02:20:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 08:20:02 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20220310.082002.1580581388767771473.id@4668.se> To: csmiley@amsl.com Cc: kokkiknamtan42@gmail.com, lhotka@nic.cz, netmod@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <30B483EC-722D-4380-8781-38313927C891@amsl.com> References: <20220222073124.49667F0FBA@rfc-editor.org> <30B483EC-722D-4380-8781-38313927C891@amsl.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8528 (6857) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:20:19 -0000 Hi, Chris Smiley wrote: > > Greetings, > > EID 6857 is almost identical to EID 5797. They differ in the enabled field (one says true, one says false). Please let me know which errata is correct. EID 5797 is the correct one. For some reason, EID 6857 has mistyped the *original* text (according to EID 6857, the original text has "enabled": false, but RFC 8528 has "enabled": true). /martin > > Thank you. > > RFC Editor/cs > > > > On Feb 21, 2022, at 11:31 PM, RFC Errata System wrote: > > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8528, > > "YANG Schema Mount". > > > > -------------------------------------- > > You may review the report below and at: > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6857 > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Type: Editorial > > Reported by: Kokkiknamtan > > > > Section: A.2 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > { > > "ietf-interfaces:interfaces": { > > "interface": [ > > { > > "name": "eth0", > > "type": "iana-if-type:ethernetCsmacd", > > "enabled": false, > > "ietf-logical-network-element:bind-lne-name": "eth0" > > } > > ] > > }, > > > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > { > > "ietf-interfaces:interfaces": { > > "interface": [ > > { > > "name": "eth0", > > "type": "iana-if-type:ethernetCsmacd", > > "enabled": false, > > "ietf-logical-network-element:bind-lne-name": "lne-1" > > } > > ] > > }, > > > > > > Notes > > ----- > > leafref is for an LNE name, not an interface name > > > > Instructions: > > ------------- > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > RFC8528 (draft-ietf-netmod-schema-mount-12) > > -------------------------------------- > > Title : YANG Schema Mount > > Publication Date : March 2019 > > Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, L. Lhotka > > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > > Source : Network Modeling > > Area : Operations and Management > > Stream : IETF > > Verifying Party : IESG > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Fri Mar 11 03:58:29 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECAC3A11F3 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:58:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QDn8rrOi20XN for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1cc0e518-3c40-4587-e957-08da03566ded X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Mar 2022 11:58:17.1319 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JGsv6A2WtsEuLccno2XZt+XY6YS899f2UQqhwVtUk3Y7odrvMpatmycqIQNF75S5gEWlAnNCG4q8MeUr1mSpNA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB5023 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Use XML namespaces in YANG document examples X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:58:28 -0000 From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) =0A= Sent: 17 February 2022 10:02=0A= =0A= Hi Tom,=0A= =0A= Thanks for flagging this.=0A= =0A= I agree that this text is not helpful in understanding the examples (nor is= this text present in other YANG module examples), and I will indeed raise = this in my ballot.=0A= =0A= =0A= Rob=0A= =0A= Thank you for the ballot.=0A= I expect that you saw the comment by Ben that this issue has been solved b= y the REGEXT WG e.g. in RFC9095 section 2 with a 'long-standing' formulatio= n so if anything is required, then it would be better to reuse that rather = than reinvent the wheel.=0A= =0A= You say that in this case the prefix is not actually needed since everythin= g is in the same namespace but it should not be - there should be a common= I2NSF I-D with common definitions, common YANG identity and so on, but I a= m not holding my breath!=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Regards,=0A= =0A= Rob=0A= =0A= =0A= -----Original Message-----=0A= From: tom petch =0A= Sent: 12 February 2022 12:54=0A= To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) =0A= Cc: netmod@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [netmod] Use XML namespaces in YANG document examples=0A= =0A= Going back to the original issue and so top-posting.=0A= =0A= NSF Monitoring Interface YANG Data Model=0A= is on the IESG Telechat 17feb2022.=0A= =0A= It contains the text - not an easy read unless you are an XML expert -=0A= "In order for the XML=0A= data to be used correctly, the prefix (i.e., the characters before=0A= the colon or 'nsfmi' in the example) in the content of the element=0A= that uses the "identityref" type (e.g., /i2nsf-event/i2nsf-system-=0A= detection-alarm/alarm-category/) in the YANG module described in this=0A= document MUST be the same as the namespace prefix (i.e., 'nsfmi' in=0A= the example) for urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-i2nsf-nsf-=0A= monitoring. Therefore, XML software MUST be chosen that makes the=0A= namespace prefix information available."=0A= =0A= This is the result of discussions between IANA and the XML directorate, whi= ch I have seen copied to the WG list, and seems to me to be in direct contr= adiction of the consensus of the NETMOD WG list as shown in the discussions= this month on this thread over the DHCP I-D and a separate thread on the I= 2NSF I-D in January and is likely to be a source of confusion for the futur= e.=0A= =0A= NSF-Facing Interface YANG Data Model=0A= is on the same Telechat but I do not see the same text.=0A= =0A= I would like an AD to throw a flag, in the shape of a DISCUSS so I am copyi= ng Robert.=0A= =0A= My take is that the text should not be included in any I-D based on the con= sensus of the NETMOD WG (as I perceive it). One suggestion was that it nee= ded an update to RFC7950 to make it justified.=0A= =0A= (Also, my rant of 2022, these late stage non-WG interventions should not be= over-riding the WG discussions but that is not going to change any time so= on).=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: netmod on behalf of tom petch =0A= Sent: 11 February 2022 17:03=0A= =0A= From: Carsten Bormann =0A= Sent: 11 February 2022 08:21=0A= >> (I'm also still not sure I've got an answer to my question about using i= nconsistent prefixes between YANG and the XML example. What is being demon= strated here?)=0A= >>=0A= > =0A= > If you are referring to=0A= > " Is there a reason to violate the SHOULD?"=0A= =0A= I'm referring to the question I was trying to ask when I said this :-)=0A= =0A= > I did not see that as related to the thread but thought it was answered a= nyway by Juergen. As he said, the SHOULD gets violated when prefix clash w= hich, in the absence of a registry, a namespace, for prefix is possible.=0A= =0A= Yes, and thanks to him for answering my question as a general question.=0A= =0A= I was answering to a throwaway note that the authors got flak when their XM= L did not use the defined prefix. My question was: why do that, then? May= be that was not understood because "ianaift" actually *is* the prefix prefe= rred in the YANG module, so my question doesn't make sense. (I'm not sure = what the throwaway referred to.)=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Try again.=0A= =0A= I have commented a number of times on a YANG import which defines a prefix = other than that in the RFC. Last month, it was=0A= import ietf-hardware {=0A= prefix ietfhw;=0A= Usually, when I comment on this, the authors accept my comment and change t= he prefix - they did on this occasion - but sometimes I get pushback along = the lines that YANG Guidelines is only a 'SHOULD' and we think that we have= a good reason to ignore the 'SHOULD' . To date, I have never agreed with = the reason and go on commenting:-) If that is flack, then yes, I have - an= d will - generate flack:-)=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten=0A= =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Sun Mar 13 11:13:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3AC3A12D2; Sun, 13 Mar 2022 11:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=labn.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I2qaMhL1sJGq; 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There were some good comments made during the LC that should be addressed before publication.  Authors, as I'm sure you are doing so already, please work through all public and private comments received; preferably with on-list discussion.  Once you publish a version that addresses all received comments as well as the on-list discussions, please summarize the changes to the WG.  Also please state that the document is ready for publication. The need for a second last call will be based on the specific changes. Thank you! Lou (Co-Chair & doc Shepherd) On 2/21/2022 12:20 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > All, > > This starts working group last call on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-module-versioning/ > > The working group last call ends on March 7 th. > Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document > and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! > This is useful and important, even from authors. > > Please note that once WG Last call is complete, this document will be > held and submitted as a set with the other versioning documents (once > they are ready) for publication request to the IESG. > > Thank you, > Lou (Co-Chair & doc Shepherd) > > > > From nobody Sun Mar 13 11:14:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7957D3A12D9; Sun, 13 Mar 2022 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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There were some good comments made during the LC that should be addressed before publication.  Authors, as I'm sure you are doing so already, please work through all public and private comments received; preferably with on-list discussion.  Once you publish a version that addresses all received comments as well as the on-list discussions, please summarize the changes to the WG.  Also please state that the document is ready for publication. The need for a second last call will be based on the specific changes. Thank you! Lou (Co-Chair & doc Shepherd) On 2/21/2022 12:20 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > All, > > This starts working group last call on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-semver/ > > The working group last call ends on March 7 th. > Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document > and believe it is ready for publication", are welcome! > This is useful and important, even from authors. > > Please note that once WG Last call is complete, this document will be > held and submitted as a set with the other versioning documents (once > they are ready) for publication request to the IESG. > > Thank you, > Lou (Co-Chair & doc Shepherd) > > From nobody Mon Mar 14 16:30:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83AA3A0E6F for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7JJfWHxl18Gf for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 701D63A0D09 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481DD427C645; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lgq95SGcZ2e; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.16] (cpe-76-95-228-63.socal.res.rr.com [76.95.228.63]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 10367427C643; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Chris Smiley In-Reply-To: <20220310.082002.1580581388767771473.id@4668.se> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:30:39 -0700 Cc: RFC Errata System , kokkiknamtan42@gmail.com, lhotka@nic.cz, netmod@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <75C8A9AF-27E5-42A3-9A98-3B7255AD3AAE@amsl.com> References: <20220222073124.49667F0FBA@rfc-editor.org> <30B483EC-722D-4380-8781-38313927C891@amsl.com> <20220310.082002.1580581388767771473.id@4668.se> To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_Bj=C3=B6rklund?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8528 (6857) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 23:30:45 -0000 Hi Martin, Per your message, EID 6857 has been deleted. Thank you! RFC Editor/cs > On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:20 PM, Martin Bj=C3=B6rklund = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Chris Smiley wrote: >>=20 >> Greetings, >>=20 >> EID 6857 is almost identical to EID 5797. They differ in the enabled = field (one says true, one says false). Please let me know which errata = is correct. >=20 >=20 > EID 5797 is the correct one. >=20 > For some reason, EID 6857 has mistyped the *original* text (according > to EID 6857, the original text has "enabled": false, but RFC 8528 has > "enabled": true). >=20 >=20 > /martin >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Thank you. >>=20 >> RFC Editor/cs >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Feb 21, 2022, at 11:31 PM, RFC Errata System = wrote: >>>=20 >>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8528, >>> "YANG Schema Mount". >>>=20 >>> -------------------------------------- >>> You may review the report below and at: >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6857 >>>=20 >>> -------------------------------------- >>> Type: Editorial >>> Reported by: Kokkiknamtan >>>=20 >>> Section: A.2 >>>=20 >>> Original Text >>> ------------- >>> { >>> "ietf-interfaces:interfaces": { >>> "interface": [ >>> { >>> "name": "eth0", >>> "type": "iana-if-type:ethernetCsmacd", >>> "enabled": false, >>> "ietf-logical-network-element:bind-lne-name": "eth0" >>> } >>> ] >>> }, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Corrected Text >>> -------------- >>> { >>> "ietf-interfaces:interfaces": { >>> "interface": [ >>> { >>> "name": "eth0", >>> "type": "iana-if-type:ethernetCsmacd", >>> "enabled": false, >>> "ietf-logical-network-element:bind-lne-name": "lne-1" >>> } >>> ] >>> }, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Notes >>> ----- >>> leafref is for an LNE name, not an interface name >>>=20 >>> Instructions: >>> ------------- >>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please >>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or >>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party =20 >>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20= >>>=20 >>> -------------------------------------- >>> RFC8528 (draft-ietf-netmod-schema-mount-12) >>> -------------------------------------- >>> Title : YANG Schema Mount >>> Publication Date : March 2019 >>> Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, L. Lhotka >>> Category : PROPOSED STANDARD >>> Source : Network Modeling >>> Area : Operations and Management >>> Stream : IETF >>> Verifying Party : IESG >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Mar 14 16:33:53 2022 Return-Path: <0100017f8ac7cc70-e9e2dfaf-c726-4853-bc0f-e656bef2f83e-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C667F3A0EB2 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:33:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rZvbOtQvz_1E for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D0F73A0E82 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 16:33:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1647300824; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=64DVZszj7cNtP6TwWiyvYdOiLZ7sNYJ0X1M/bbn2w6o=; b=j6Ef9UzGsqhyMM5ZnF9WxU5DM0Mo/0bhRG0eQoJ5VcMuZJDlaTAN5bxGSlmDrfaS LAPIfj67xaoGYnygq09iYJTgwf3DJ7s43PZjOxfUKsf0ofYjAtACvnBEee7R2vXFzGN 2/XWrxrusGmXwrBewdNZI4l0k5AoI/sQO2mEyyTo= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017f8ac7cc70-e9e2dfaf-c726-4853-bc0f-e656bef2f83e-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C77150E2-A379-4736-885C-F4DEF281E7A3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 23:33:44 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20220307161053.old2vgmopuyhxvla@anna> Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder References: <0100017ec2a73fab-b7e69955-c6ab-496e-a9a4-274780023fd1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017f42af4f30-631592d1-9c88-4478-97e9-6636b5558bad-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20220307161053.old2vgmopuyhxvla@anna> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.14-54.240.8.88 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 23:33:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C77150E2-A379-4736-885C-F4DEF281E7A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 All, 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the -12 = diff = = to ensure that the updates made are good. 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-identifier" = typedef, as it is better defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections? On both points above, if no objections are raised in the next week, = we'll assume consensus to move forward. Juergen, you will be posting a -13 containing Martin's URI "pattern" = statement when the submission window reopens? Kent // as co-chair and shepherd > On Mar 7, 2022, at 11:10 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > Kent, >=20 > I have posted -12, which fixes the bugs that have been reported to me > and removes the percentage types. >=20 > I have also removed the revision-identifier type since it is better > defined in the YANG versioning module (and it should be called > revision-date and not revision-identifier). This change was not > suggested during the last call, I only noticed that this definition > could be moved while reviewing the YANG versioning I-Ds over the > weekend. This change probably requires a check with the WG. (If we > were to put it back, I would still suggest to call it revision-date as > this is also how this thing is called in RFC 7950). >=20 > /js >=20 > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 11:34:19PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: >> Thank you everyone that participated, the Last Call for this draft is = closed successfully! >>=20 >> Authors, please let the chairs know when the issues have been = resolved and the draft is ready to be progressed for IESG review. >>=20 >> Kent >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 9:54 PM, Kent Watsen = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Dear NETMOD WG, >>>=20 >>> This message begins a two-week WGLC for = draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 ending on Friday, February 18th. Here = is a direct link to the HTML version of the draft: >>>=20 >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11.htm= l >>>=20 >>> Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it = is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, = even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also = welcomed at this time. >>>=20 >>> Thank you, >>> Kent (as co-chair) >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> netmod mailing list >>> netmod@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > --=20 > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University = Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 --Apple-Mail=_C77150E2-A379-4736-885C-F4DEF281E7A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
All,

1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please = review the -12 diff to ensure that the updates made = are good.

2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the = "revision-identifier" typedef, as it is better
defined in the YANG versioning module. =  Any objections?

On both points above, if no objections = are raised in the next week, we'll assume consensus to move = forward.


Juergen, you will be = posting a -13 containing Martin's URI "pattern" = statement when the submission window reopens?

Kent // = as co-chair and shepherd



On Mar 7, 2022, at 11:10 AM, = J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

Kent,

I have posted -12, which = fixes the bugs that have been reported to me
and removes = the percentage types.

I have also removed = the revision-identifier type since it is better
defined in = the YANG versioning module (and it should be called
revision-date and not revision-identifier). This change was = not
suggested during the last call, I only noticed that = this definition
could be moved while reviewing the YANG = versioning I-Ds over the
weekend. This change probably = requires a check with the WG. (If we
were to put it back, = I would still suggest to call it revision-date as
this is = also how this thing is called in RFC 7950).

/js

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at = 11:34:19PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
Thank you everyone that participated, the Last = Call for this draft is closed successfully!

Authors, please let the chairs know when the issues have been = resolved and the draft is ready to be progressed for IESG review.

Kent



On Feb 3, = 2022, at 9:54 PM, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:

Dear NETMOD WG,

This message = begins a two-week WGLC for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 ending on = Friday, February 18th.  Here is a direct link to the HTML version = of the draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991= -bis-11.html

Positive comments, e.g., = "I've reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", = are welcome!  This is useful and important, even from authors. =  Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this = time.

Thank you,
Kent (as = co-chair)

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--
J=C3=BCrgen = Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder =             &n= bsp;Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 = Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

= --Apple-Mail=_C77150E2-A379-4736-885C-F4DEF281E7A3-- From nobody Mon Mar 14 17:21:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC6B3A1219 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VxFI0lxFEZZJ for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D6D63A121D for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e5757b57caso28282757b3.4 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:21:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TpW1MCFnWNU1G578EA27Kd2ejqVHGo2kXFQuEGllH6Q=; b=Mrq1KBxywSrEgIgNLGcoh2r5oDNaWLTLrA/W2w8k38OaUd9hQ/ZYvb7txzblDezirP Sg9Fb9N2hd1Sat8ka1h1Ad7F/ntZAt5x1oV8WR7KBSpS0egudAsIsfH4zTyiZUDM8P9L RDgDz7cw0qhK9sqY3knuw/GNokOUwcGkQphRQXHP7JSJlAaLqMF6jdCXCIcXyJGJwV+/ g8yAH0R6K9WfnS8XEJmDy9nPY1syzH8KP9EEU4hJZqxPac8VVSaCurA5cqOz2sb2SObz F0tSomnVyDHCLmrCEO0nXOzDFALLwRsZFCrSKIycvCmYFI7o2ymOtwDX9SFsQQmxej9F X0KA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TpW1MCFnWNU1G578EA27Kd2ejqVHGo2kXFQuEGllH6Q=; b=cmtXRhlotQtkaGv8qeRNOv6GQ5jjjqGUPsSB3Z+OwgQBlFp4hEVKZVMh1CFkh6U/H2 TdZtO3OdVC1MXPwtdKmflkhENfc3PRjaPOU5P53PldAU1ySO9dwLBbE6+yhSYYfojdjW 7jkGlyq/vAbiLzF2OVhfyXU+wCSMBH/fTfCKZ226bjYvnfPss9HQ0zXTvMMDgwTel2BV trMQ+NPwxaNX3Da5vgXQW9/notDgR/8evLaJuXcvQO6KGzIay/MswIqU5R4ciM1oxrOK cgI2MI5x9C9TozIKSt9liQ/KCub1VYNl237V/RfNy5653kEUr0fSk/1gqVZ237HZzWjA d4FA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5303W0h/Asq9zpAfgDaHiVrKiRtr80K+TMwqibYd4sjstvURnmw9 Xi/bISp3OQPJZz1NDEeuav6VxQWHOa3mja0J+icA3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoBW/65u65eXuEiB+IMNDX3xddW8CHe9BjQgqrJk/mhTFnKs4c8TCeqfAaP2OW7uxGSRAYEK99iWP7jLSAU0U= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a842:0:b0:2db:562a:3f13 with SMTP id f63-20020a81a842000000b002db562a3f13mr20736411ywh.322.1647303671707; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017ec2a73fab-b7e69955-c6ab-496e-a9a4-274780023fd1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017f42af4f30-631592d1-9c88-4478-97e9-6636b5558bad-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20220307161053.old2vgmopuyhxvla@anna> <0100017f8ac7cc70-e9e2dfaf-c726-4853-bc0f-e656bef2f83e-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017f8ac7cc70-e9e2dfaf-c726-4853-bc0f-e656bef2f83e-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:21:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030961405da36c680" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 00:21:18 -0000 --00000000000030961405da36c680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen wrote: > All, > > 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the -12 dif= f > to > ensure that the updates made are good. > > 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-identifier" > typedef, as it is better > defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections? > > Sorry for the late comment. I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and leave it in this module". I support this option. There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing any time soon. This is useful for general applications because revision date is widely used. Andy > On both points above, if no objections are raised in the next week, we'll > assume consensus to move forward. > > > Juergen, you will be posting a -13 containing Martin's URI "pattern" > statement when the submission window reopens? > > Kent // as co-chair and shepherd > > > > On Mar 7, 2022, at 11:10 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > Kent, > > I have posted -12, which fixes the bugs that have been reported to me > and removes the percentage types. > > I have also removed the revision-identifier type since it is better > defined in the YANG versioning module (and it should be called > revision-date and not revision-identifier). This change was not > suggested during the last call, I only noticed that this definition > could be moved while reviewing the YANG versioning I-Ds over the > weekend. This change probably requires a check with the WG. (If we > were to put it back, I would still suggest to call it revision-date as > this is also how this thing is called in RFC 7950). > > /js > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 11:34:19PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Thank you everyone that participated, the Last Call for this draft is > closed successfully! > > Authors, please let the chairs know when the issues have been resolved an= d > the draft is ready to be progressed for IESG review. > > Kent > > > > On Feb 3, 2022, at 9:54 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Dear NETMOD WG, > > This message begins a two-week WGLC for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 > ending on Friday, February 18th. Here is a direct link to the HTML versi= on > of the draft: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11.ht= ml > > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it is > ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even > from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at > this time. > > Thank you, > Kent (as co-chair) > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000030961405da36c680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent = Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:
= All,


2) Juergen notes below that he also=C2=A0removed the "revisio= n-identifier" typedef, as it=C2=A0is better
<= div>defined in the YANG versioning module.=C2= =A0 Any objections?
<= br>

Sorry for the= late comment.
I think Juergen listed=C2=A0one option as "re= name to revision-date and leave it in this module".
I suppor= t this option.

There is no chance that the revisio= n date format will be changing any time soon.
This is useful for = general applications because revision date is widely used.


Andy



=C2=A0
On both points=C2=A0above, i= f no objections are raised in the next week, we'll assume consensus to = move forward.

=

Juergen, you will be posting=C2=A0a -13 containing Martin's URI "pattern= " statement when the submission window reopens?
=
Kent // as co-chair and shepherd



On Mar 7, 2022, = at 11:10 AM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-un= iversity.de> wrote:

Kent,

I have posted -1= 2, which fixes the bugs that have been reported to me
and removes the pe= rcentage types.

I have also removed the revision-identifier type sin= ce it is better
defined in the YANG versioning module (and it should be = called
revision-date and not revision-identifier). This change was notsuggested during the last call, I only noticed that this definition
co= uld be moved while reviewing the YANG versioning I-Ds over the
weekend. = This change probably requires a check with the WG. (If we
were to put it= back, I would still suggest to call it revision-date as
this is also ho= w this thing is called in RFC 7950).

/js

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022= at 11:34:19PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
Thank= you everyone that participated, the Last Call for this draft is closed suc= cessfully!

Authors, please let the chairs know when the issues have = been resolved and the draft is ready to be progressed for IESG review.
<= br>Kent



On Feb 3, 2022, at 9:54 PM= , Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:

Dear NETMOD WG,

This mes= sage begins a two-week WGLC for draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 ending on = Friday, February 18th.=C2=A0 Here is a direct link to the HTML version of t= he draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-r= fc6991-bis-11.html

Positive comments, e.g., "I've revie= wed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are welcom= e!=C2=A0 This is useful and important, even from authors.=C2=A0 Objections,= concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this time.

Thank you= ,
Kent (as co-chair)

____________________________________________= ___
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=

_______________________________________________netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Jacobs Unive= rsity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax: =C2=A0= =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<= https://www= .jacobs-university.de/>

=
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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"'teas@ietf.org'" , "'netmod@ietf.org'" CC: Fatai Zhang Thread-Topic: [CCAMP][TEAS][NETMOD] Efficiency issues with YANG model data in integration Thread-Index: Adg4C6bs+BE/9XP/Tve41P2kUU3Bew== Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:30:07 +0000 Message-ID: <67664d6fff3e4125a1ac026030ef067c@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.117.175.195] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_67664d6fff3e4125a1ac026030ef067chuaweicom_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [CCAMP][TEAS][NETMOD] Efficiency issues with YANG model data in integration X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:30:20 -0000 --_004_67664d6fff3e4125a1ac026030ef067chuaweicom_ Content-Type: 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Hello Fri= ends,

&nbs= p;

I have a question about YANG data model efficiency is= sues discovered during integration with OSS.

This issu= e is also mentioned in section2.2 of draft-yg3bp-ccamp-network-inventory-ya= ng that we are planning to present at the CCAMP WG during IETF 113.

&nbs= p;

YANG data= models define schema trees such as:

&nbs= p;

module: e= xample

 &nb= sp; +--rw root

 &nb= sp;    +--rw leaf-a?   string

 &nb= sp;    +--rw list-b* [leaf-c]

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-c    string

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw list-d* [leaf-e]<= /p>

 &nb= sp;    |     +--rw leaf-e  = ;  string

 &nb= sp;    |     +--rw list-f* [leaf-g]<= o:p>

 &nb= sp;    |        +--rw= leaf-g    string

 &nb= sp;    |        +--rw= leaf-h?   string

 &nb= sp;    +--rw list-i* [leaf-j]

 &nb= sp;       +--rw leaf-j    = string

 &nb= sp;       +--rw leaf-k?   strin= g

&nbs= p;

From the = point of view of data model definition, it is convenient to define objects = and their relationship using a tree structure.

&nbs= p;

However, = from a practical perspective, relational databases, in which these objects = are saved in different tables, are widely used by network controllers and O= SS/BSS. In this type of implementations, the model data need to be cut into several pieces of small object data for= management and this is causing some efficiency issues with the integration= between systems.

&nbs= p;

For examp= le, in full data synchronization scenario, the YANG server needs to assembl= e the data of each small object into a tree structure based on the YANG mod= el defined for the communication with its YANG client(s). The YANG client then disassembles the data into its ow= n storage structure. This assembly-disassembly process is actually time con= suming, especially when the = storage structures between the upper and lower system are consistent, they = don=A1=AFt need this assembly-disassembly process at all. This effic= iency issue is more prominent in large scale networks.

&nbs= p;

RESTCONF = can also support querying small objects. For example, in the above YANG mod= el, the YANG server can provide the list of list-f instances ({{restconf}}/= data/example:root/list-b=3D{leaf-c}/list-d=3D{leaf-e}/list-f) to a YANG client, with no need to perform any assembly-disassembly process= .

&nbs= p;

However, = since list-f is a child list under list-d and list-b, if you want to get ac= cess the list-f list, the list-b=A1=AFs identifier (leaf-c) and the list-d= =A1=AFs identifier (leaf-e) shall be specified in the URI. Therefore, in the full data synchronization scenario, a loop is r= equired to get all the elements of list-f. If there are 100 list-b instance= s and there=A1=AFre 100 list-d instances under each list-b instance, then 1= 00*100 requests are needed to get all of the list-f instances.

Assume th= at there are only 10 instances by average in each list-d instance, there ar= e totally 100,000 list-f instances. If, instead, it would possible to retri= eve all the list-f instances without specifying the list-f=A1=AFs parent and grandparent=A1=AFs identifier, but using REST= FUL=A1=AFs pagination, each RESTFUL request, can provide far more than 10 l= ist-f instances, regardless of whether they belong to a same list-d or list= -b instance or not. If RESTFUL interface can return 100 list-f instances per request, only 1000 requests are required, one ten= th of RESTCONF interface. This approach will reduce the time taken by the i= ntegration.

&nbs= p;

So my que= stion is whether, to address this efficiency issue, the only viable option = is to define the YANG model with a more flat structure, as shown below:

&nbs= p;

module: e= xample

 &nb= sp; +--rw root

 &nb= sp;    +--rw root-summay-information

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-a?     &nb= sp;       string

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw contained-list-b*   strin= g

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw contianed-list-i*   strin= g

 &nb= sp;    +--rw list-b* [leaf-c]

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-c     = ;         string<= /p>

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw contained-list-d*   strin= g

 &nb= sp;    +--rw list-d* [leaf-c leaf-e]

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-c     = ;         leafref  (path "= ;/exmp:root/exmp:list-b/exmp:leaf-c")

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-e     = ;         string<= /p>

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw contained-list-f*   strin= g

 &nb= sp;    +--rw list-f* [leaf-c leaf-e leaf-g]

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-c    leafref&nb= sp; (path "/exmp:root/exmp:list-b/exmp:leaf-c")=

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-e    leafref&nb= sp; (path "/exmp:root/exmp:list-d/exmp:leaf-e")=

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-g    string

 &nb= sp;    |  +--rw leaf-h?   string

 &nb= sp;    +--rw list-i* [leaf-j]

 &nb= sp;       +--rw leaf-j    = string

 &nb= sp;       +--rw leaf-k?   strin= g

&nbs= p;

The leaf-= list object contained-list-* is a list of identifier reference to list-* in= stance. With this kind of modeling, all the list-f instances in the whole n= etwork can be retrieved without the need to specify its parent=A1=AFs and grandparent=A1=AFs identifiers in URI.

&nbs= p;

We would = appreciate receiving your comments and suggestions on whether there are oth= er ways to resolve these integration efficiency issues.

&nbs= p;

Thank you= !

&nbs= p;

B.R.=

Chaode

 

=D3=F1=B3=AF=B5=C2  Tel:= +86-15002728675

=BB=AA=CE=AA=BC=BC=CA=F5=D3=D0=CF=DE=B9=AB=CB=BE

=3D"Huawei"

 

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:02:04 -0000 On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen wrote: > > > All, > > > > 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the -12 diff > > to > > ensure that the updates made are good. > > > > 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-identifier" > > typedef, as it is better > > defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections? > > > > > Sorry for the late comment. > I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and leave it > in this module". > I support this option. > > There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing any time > soon. > This is useful for general applications because revision date is widely > used. > The ietf-yang-library module (RFC 8525) currently uses its own definition of revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a common definition, the value of such a change is minor. The question where we place the definition of revision-date is likely a matter of which role we expect the versioning work to play in the future. I am relatively neutral on the placement. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 15 08:43:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F923A158F for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Lti_2bHWC3s for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A48F3A1594 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id v130so38051272ybe.13 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:42:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GBq8RGrfvPK3eGKjp3jSPE2peK8g0y7ydlvvi6VA6bI=; b=JXxDqcVejk9DEWC7t3ZnIwjXt3H2eKnwk4mxKGkGlNTMqL7JoGxgw8f5oox2naXwFA lj61op1+V4wlodBsETL5cS7hUOYjDxVbUeYIySZnhU78AoqydJH5spOgmzZktLQ0U5OE QzDz6LQZWCir/libPBrtfk+dRx6NehrD3CO5939dsfOwErMSOHqPE+aLxk9kT6p9Q0nV 8yQW5MSNpz+QAg2ZrSweTOYPn7cgMqHWlsHfU7CHFAUefgzw39hUrn3hnzFCDZKsUPEl Hk9Olo2z+wr/pxlAV1w32LcIT9AMKWSiVg5SqFrlNn162rEuHc1fcvWS5i6/Sit6F9Y6 5rcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=GBq8RGrfvPK3eGKjp3jSPE2peK8g0y7ydlvvi6VA6bI=; b=4HSomHwF1Mig+LPhUANPm5mJRmQSj6yKpu93HX5le8RQ+cffUotqIjbFAtV26ONeeN icLFUhB+kdz6xlbXBQ80oHO1ZukL2J3OqfOYb0ELcCiKEuT3+S7W59aTfgx0Zn/b6V55 o7hezsjH82DS8qgUubH0FInpTKpxNZDEJF7eDs+S+t7FhJUVE2y2dls+dvWznNPTLeqS SOIHrBi1ByfPVtpqkgBiYRZbux2JE1B+hJxsQGq9e0137khkgbEgR3FxaSLJo87PBG3K aul4G4mbIAvSpNY75fk0uzoSZuwSt4Ap4OFkFyqs4dMEXe0tIyubZLfoESKHZgGHsulm SVDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pVn5JT9dg9C35tDLyZ7f5xiU/PvIdzvN0u//d30BxtX5DexOs YnCkgFnGZ8Bl9OOoIP5FPCZHebHietL1UBzOTw0ju/iP0tc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwi1hL0QTG5G/nhjXSDwD79UbCFllFC7dDDl2o7Ols9mbo0KdOA6S7/1q2sav5uqZOomhHcXxFltnoCv8OVOh0= X-Received: by 2002:a25:6189:0:b0:633:f28:f133 with SMTP id v131-20020a256189000000b006330f28f133mr12785655ybb.445.1647358961809; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017ec2a73fab-b7e69955-c6ab-496e-a9a4-274780023fd1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017f42af4f30-631592d1-9c88-4478-97e9-6636b5558bad-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20220307161053.old2vgmopuyhxvla@anna> <0100017f8ac7cc70-e9e2dfaf-c726-4853-bc0f-e656bef2f83e-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20220315130137.kpomlykipy2p42lw@anna> In-Reply-To: <20220315130137.kpomlykipy2p42lw@anna> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:42:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bc95d405da43a504" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 15:43:08 -0000 --000000000000bc95d405da43a504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:01 AM J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen > wrote: > > > > > All, > > > > > > 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the -12 > diff > > > < > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.txt>= to > > > ensure that the updates made are good. > > > > > > 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-identifier" > > > typedef, as it is better > > > defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections? > > > > > > > > Sorry for the late comment. > > I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and leave > it > > in this module". > > I support this option. > > > > There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing any > time > > soon. > > This is useful for general applications because revision date is widely > > used. > > > > The ietf-yang-library module (RFC 8525) currently uses its own > definition of revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a > common definition, the value of such a change is minor. > > The question where we place the definition of revision-date is likely > a matter of which role we expect the versioning work to play in the > future. I am relatively neutral on the placement. > > Not that important I guess. One would think the "date" typedef already in the draft would be useful, but it isn't, and therefore not used. There is no typedef for the pattern YYYY-MM-DD. /js > Andy > > -- > J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder Jacobs University Bremen g= GmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000bc95d405da43a504 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div>


=
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:01 AM J=C3= =BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at = 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote: >
> > All,
> >
> > 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the= -12 diff
> > <https://www.ie= tf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.txt> to
> > ensure that the updates made are good.
> >
> > 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-id= entifier"
> > typedef, as it is better
> > defined in the YANG versioning module.=C2=A0 Any objections?
> >
> >
> Sorry for the late comment.
> I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and= leave it
> in this module".
> I support this option.
>
> There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing any = time
> soon.
> This is useful for general applications because revision date is widel= y
> used.
>

The ietf-yang-library module (RFC 8525) currently uses its own
definition of revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a
common definition, the value of such a change is minor.

The question where we place the definition of revision-date is likely
a matter of which role we expect the versioning work to play in the
future. I am relatively neutral on the placement.


Not that important I guess.
= One would think the "date" typedef already in the draft would be = useful,
but it isn't, and therefore not used.
There= is no typedef for the pattern YYYY-MM-DD.

/js

Andy
=C2=A0

--
J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
--000000000000bc95d405da43a504-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 22:21:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A6633A0E4C for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ReB4LiNu1MBt for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5EE13A0E27 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 499) id 9F47A20D6AD; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:21:12 -0700 (PDT) To: mbj@tail-f.com, warren@kumari.net, rwilton@cisco.com, kent+ietf@watsen.net, joelja@bogus.com, lberger@labn.net From: RFC Errata System Cc: kaja.mohideen@nokia.com, netmod@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220316052112.9F47A20D6AD@rfc-editor.org> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6885) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 05:21:18 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6885 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: R Kaja Mohideen Section: 11 Original Text ------------- A definition in a published module may be revised in any of the following ways: o An "enumeration" type may have new enums added, provided the old enums's values do not change. Note that inserting a new enum before an existing enum or reordering existing enums will result in new values for the existing enums, unless they have explicit values assigned to them. o A "bits" type may have new bits added, provided the old bit positions do not change. Note that inserting a new bit before an existing bit or reordering existing bits will result in new positions for the existing bits, unless they have explicit positions assigned to them. Corrected Text -------------- See Notes. Notes ----- When server is exposing updated yang model as mentioned in Section 11, particularly with enums, bits having new items - client systems that are not updated to use the new yang module will not be able to recognize and use the new values. This is problematic when there are multiple clients and those systems are getting updated to catch up with yang changes over time. Updated "Client A" recognizing new enum and using it (update datastore with new value using edit-config), will make, old/not-yet-updated "Client B" to encounter the new value (received as response of get-config) that it cannot work with. So, the "backward compatible" ways of updating a yang module should consider "multiple clients" scenario and make recommendations in such a way that clients are not forced to update all at once. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) -------------------------------------- Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language Publication Date : August 2016 Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. 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It is possible to debate that design choice but this surely is not an errata, hence this errata should be rejected. /js On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 10:21:12PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, > "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6885 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: R Kaja Mohideen > > Section: 11 > > Original Text > ------------- > A definition in a published module may be revised in any of the > following ways: > > o An "enumeration" type may have new enums added, provided the old > enums's values do not change. Note that inserting a new enum > before an existing enum or reordering existing enums will result > in new values for the existing enums, unless they have explicit > values assigned to them. > > o A "bits" type may have new bits added, provided the old bit > positions do not change. Note that inserting a new bit before an > existing bit or reordering existing bits will result in new > positions for the existing bits, unless they have explicit > positions assigned to them. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > See Notes. > > Notes > ----- > When server is exposing updated yang model as mentioned in Section 11, particularly with enums, bits having new items - client systems that are not updated to use the new yang module will not be able to recognize and use the new values. > > This is problematic when there are multiple clients and those systems are getting updated to catch up with yang changes over time. Updated "Client A" recognizing new enum and using it (update datastore with new value using edit-config), will make, old/not-yet-updated "Client B" to encounter the new value (received as response of get-config) that it cannot work with. > > So, the "backward compatible" ways of updating a yang module should consider "multiple clients" scenario and make recommendations in such a way that clients are not forced to update all at once. > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) > -------------------------------------- > Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language > Publication Date : August 2016 > Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Network Modeling > Area : Operations and Management > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Mar 16 13:44:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68DD3A0E64 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08dEH8CK5IR9 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com (mail-pf1-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A2E33A0E67 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id a5so5099075pfv.2 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5qHbyrSveT6rZTGYXlzSQi+NxEU1206CrcApTmozDDg=; b=COB52qUTGbqZt7GTsc1Rkr9TuK8VsPTbfYUgbrGaP3VaTrf6Nttr49VNVQ9JEuwNzW MOpFQAuDAVoyy5QGE4nCL5RjBluF8kEl/x5Kn3pAmDhwjSc5j5GIB0YF7v+kyrekapWC HrJZ5aV1muKD+1Q2Phuxh3YCya4OYbh7djY3o3HrOC1Z2u9rxaN80L+N43SAKjzKgkmi gZQmXb0WGUMDn/UP1oU45pFRnaozDrhknZgXasKMe9Mx4GDUTguJtjsT22e78aNq19GX mikCocb+SEdbWRcn/+h5IcTpaY33FIaFPG1mZVz6nedOHd8ti8vhzUgDmB9U5UZ3QCQU Dmjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533eC7vGfI+07UeQVP7Ggu3cVkYqA86yzvZpfvW5mBvLRy9irej5 Ng8WDI4RIYGw2JzSKd3Ktus82g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/Ppv4lJ536MRc9lMPlh6JmXcTGRJ5gGSWgZWVvqzIKLZnJBhqyyJ60b6kTvs01PH0AQBBJA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e243:0:b0:381:6a51:145f with SMTP id y3-20020a63e243000000b003816a51145fmr1017814pgj.625.1647463433879; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:646:9300:607:a093:9940:7d76:a176? ([2601:646:9300:607:a093:9940:7d76:a176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k14-20020aa7972e000000b004f7b8b43d96sm3955674pfg.51.2022.03.16.13.43.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d482f9a-21be-b389-688a-85cfe739371f@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:43:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: RFC Errata System , mbj@tail-f.com, warren@kumari.net, rwilton@cisco.com, kent+ietf@watsen.net, joelja@bogus.com, lberger@labn.net, kaja.mohideen@nokia.com, netmod@ietf.org References: <20220316052112.9F47A20D6AD@rfc-editor.org> <20220316061327.ce7mtqwhrk772fjw@anna> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: <20220316061327.ce7mtqwhrk772fjw@anna> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6885) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:43:59 -0000 Hi - On 2022-03-15 11:13 PM, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > YANG update rules expect clients to be lenient about values they > received but did not expect. It is possible to debate that design > choice but this surely is not an errata, hence this errata should > be rejected. I agree that the proposed erratum should be rejected. The text of RFC 7950 says what the working group clearly intended, and is consistent with the approach taken in the SNMP SMI, for whatever that might be worth. Randy > /js > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 10:21:12PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: >> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, >> "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". >> >> -------------------------------------- >> You may review the report below and at: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6885 >> >> -------------------------------------- >> Type: Technical >> Reported by: R Kaja Mohideen >> >> Section: 11 >> >> Original Text >> ------------- >> A definition in a published module may be revised in any of the >> following ways: >> >> o An "enumeration" type may have new enums added, provided the old >> enums's values do not change. Note that inserting a new enum >> before an existing enum or reordering existing enums will result >> in new values for the existing enums, unless they have explicit >> values assigned to them. >> >> o A "bits" type may have new bits added, provided the old bit >> positions do not change. Note that inserting a new bit before an >> existing bit or reordering existing bits will result in new >> positions for the existing bits, unless they have explicit >> positions assigned to them. >> >> Corrected Text >> -------------- >> See Notes. >> >> Notes >> ----- >> When server is exposing updated yang model as mentioned in Section 11, particularly with enums, bits having new items - client systems that are not updated to use the new yang module will not be able to recognize and use the new values. >> >> This is problematic when there are multiple clients and those systems are getting updated to catch up with yang changes over time. Updated "Client A" recognizing new enum and using it (update datastore with new value using edit-config), will make, old/not-yet-updated "Client B" to encounter the new value (received as response of get-config) that it cannot work with. >> >> So, the "backward compatible" ways of updating a yang module should consider "multiple clients" scenario and make recommendations in such a way that clients are not forced to update all at once. >> >> Instructions: >> ------------- >> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please >> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or >> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party >> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. >> >> -------------------------------------- >> RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) >> -------------------------------------- >> Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language >> Publication Date : August 2016 >> Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. >> Category : PROPOSED STANDARD >> Source : Network Modeling >> Area : Operations and Management >> Stream : IETF >> Verifying Party : IESG >> >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > From nobody Thu Mar 17 02:58:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5293A0E56 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 02:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB4A3A1080; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 03:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 499) id 19F87120A4F; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 03:10:24 -0700 (PDT) To: kaja.mohideen@nokia.com, mbj@tail-f.com From: RFC Errata System Cc: rwilton@cisco.com, iesg@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220317101024.19F87120A4F@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 03:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [Errata Rejected] RFC7950 (6885) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:10:31 -0000 The following errata report has been rejected for RFC7950, "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6885 -------------------------------------- Status: Rejected Type: Technical Reported by: R Kaja Mohideen Date Reported: 2022-03-16 Rejected by: Rob Wilton (IESG) Section: 11 Original Text ------------- A definition in a published module may be revised in any of the following ways: o An "enumeration" type may have new enums added, provided the old enums's values do not change. Note that inserting a new enum before an existing enum or reordering existing enums will result in new values for the existing enums, unless they have explicit values assigned to them. o A "bits" type may have new bits added, provided the old bit positions do not change. Note that inserting a new bit before an existing bit or reordering existing bits will result in new positions for the existing bits, unless they have explicit positions assigned to them. Corrected Text -------------- See Notes. Notes ----- When server is exposing updated yang model as mentioned in Section 11, particularly with enums, bits having new items - client systems that are not updated to use the new yang module will not be able to recognize and use the new values. This is problematic when there are multiple clients and those systems are getting updated to catch up with yang changes over time. Updated "Client A" recognizing new enum and using it (update datastore with new value using edit-config), will make, old/not-yet-updated "Client B" to encounter the new value (received as response of get-config) that it cannot work with. So, the "backward compatible" ways of updating a yang module should consider "multiple clients" scenario and make recommendations in such a way that clients are not forced to update all at once. --VERIFIER NOTES-- The document text accurately represents the consensus of the WG at the time that it was published. Hence, this errata is beyond the scope of what changes could be considered as part of the errata process, such a change would need to happen via a new or updated RFC. -------------------------------------- RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) -------------------------------------- Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language Publication Date : August 2016 Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. 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([2601:646:9300:607:c916:3b6:d61:a5c1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f13-20020a056a001acd00b004f76d35c1dcsm7135083pfv.104.2022.03.17.10.29.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:29:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: netmod@ietf.org References: <67664d6fff3e4125a1ac026030ef067c@huawei.com> From: Randy Presuhn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [CCAMP][TEAS][NETMOD] Efficiency issues with YANG model data in integration X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:29:50 -0000 Hi - On 2022-03-17 9:32 AM, tom petch wrote: ... > From: netmod on behalf of yuchaode > Sent: 15 March 2022 01:30 > To: 'ccamp@ietf.org'; 'teas@ietf.org'; 'netmod@ietf.org' > Cc: Fatai Zhang > > I have a question about YANG data model efficiency issues discovered during integration with OSS. ... > From the point of view of data model definition, it is convenient to define objects and their relationship using a tree structure. > > However, from a practical perspective, relational databases, in which these objects are saved in different tables, are widely used by network controllers and OSS/BSS. In this type of implementations, the model data need to be cut into several pieces of small object data for management and this is causing some efficiency issues with the integration between systems. > > > When the data definition language that we know as YANG was being specified, the question did arise of how object-oriented it should be and the consensus was that it should not be. Seeking to retrofit such a concept might be a bit like finding late in the day that the class definitions that have been chosen do not go high up enough the tree:-( > > An interesting idea but I am not sure how feasible it will prove to be. ... The efficiency issue (mapping an object-oriented model to a relational implementation) occurs even with slightly object-oriented modeling techniques like SNMP's SMI, and doesn't get substantially worse with full-on object-oriented ones like GDMO. (I think the problem is actually easier if one starts from the GDMO perspective.) Our experience over 30 years ago was that it is tractable, but it requires careful thought about the representation of fully distinguished names and of values of types with complex syntax. If you think about it in the right way, the depth of nesting doesn't really matter. 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I am leaning towards option c), having a generic type for a date without a time zone is the most general type we can provide. If additional specific revision date semantics are necessary, they can be provided in ietf-yang-revisions. (Looking at the definition of the type revision-identifier in RFC 8525, this is really date-no-zone.) /js On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 08:42:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:01 AM Jürgen Schönwälder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen > > wrote: > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the -12 > > diff > > > > < > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.txt> to > > > > ensure that the updates made are good. > > > > > > > > 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-identifier" > > > > typedef, as it is better > > > > defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections? > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the late comment. > > > I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and leave > > it > > > in this module". > > > I support this option. > > > > > > There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing any > > time > > > soon. > > > This is useful for general applications because revision date is widely > > > used. > > > > > > > The ietf-yang-library module (RFC 8525) currently uses its own > > definition of revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a > > common definition, the value of such a change is minor. > > > > The question where we place the definition of revision-date is likely > > a matter of which role we expect the versioning work to play in the > > future. I am relatively neutral on the placement. > > > > > Not that important I guess. > One would think the "date" typedef already in the draft would be useful, > but it isn't, and therefore not used. > There is no typedef for the pattern YYYY-MM-DD. > > /js > > > > Andy > > > > > > -- > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 22 02:10:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE4B3A0D02 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Here is a set of fictious examples adopting annotations as they are often used in programming languages. The idea is to focus on documenting changes instead of inventing fuzzy numbering systems plus magic algorithms to find changes. revision 2022-03-22 { } revision 2022-03-20 { } revision 2022-03-01 { } typedef foo { type int16; v:since "2022-03-22"; } typedef bar { type int8; v:since "2022-03-20"; status deprecated { v:since "2022-03-22" description "Deprecated, use typedef foo instead." } } typedef baz { type uint8; status obsolete { v:since 2022-03-20; } } typedef boo { type string; v:since 2022-03-01; v:incompatible { v:at "2022-03-20" description "Moved type from int8 to string."; } status "deprecated" { v:since 2022-03-22; description "This incompatible update was a bad idea."; } } /js On Wed, Mar 09, 2022 at 11:16:09AM +0100, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > Hi, > > the YANG versioning solution appears to be complex. > > - We introduce version numbers that smell a bit like SemVers but then > are not really SemVer. > > - We have no solution to do meaningful things with these version > numbers, it does not even seem to be possible to decide whether > X.Y.Z derives from x.y.z or not. We still seem to believe that > having compatibility constraints embedded in module imports are a > workable solution even though we acknowledge future breaking > changes. > > - We push for a reasonably complex algorithm to calculate deltas of > YANG module revisions to let users of modules to determine the real > impact of module updates on their work. > > I wonder why we not consider the opposite approach, namely to have > author making NBC changes to document them right where the changes > are. If authors would write something like > > leaf foo { > nbc-change "2022-03-01" { > description "changed type from int32 to string"; > }; > // ... > } > > then tool and humans can easily figure out in which revision NBC > changes occured and if they affect a certain usage of the module. > > Instead of simply properly documenting the changes, we invent fuzzy > version numbers and complex algorithms to reverse engineer the facts > that could have easily been documented by whoever makes the change. > > If the reason is that developers do not document their changes, then > go and develop tools to force them to document their changes. I do not > think it is fair to simply push the pain to the users of YANG modules. > > /js > > -- > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 22 03:12:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9173A0DF7 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 03:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2981d704-1848-4650-5f0f-08da0bec76d8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Mar 2022 10:12:25.9644 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FlPKfAeFKyLnTc9mzcFPLIEywqG3+6eH/n5/HWlxN8Gyb6UN/a5gXV4jwhJBFqB1js9W9qrpr3MgW8gU7Q01vA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR11MB5790 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.135.124, xfe-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Feedback on Self-Describing Data Object Tags in YANG Data Models X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:12:35 -0000 Rob commented at the mic during the 113 meeting that using=0A= self-describing tags for specific data instances may be a design of this=0A= solution, but the text doesn't state that. To add to the request to=0A= provide such text, it would be useful to have an example showing this.=0A= =0A= One potential use I can think of for this is to use user tags to=0A= self-describe the instance of an interface to be "critical" or=0A= high-priority for purposes of more aggressive monitoring/telemetry=0A= subscriptions, etc.=0A= =0A= Joe=0A= From nobody Tue Mar 22 06:25:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46AC3A12D2 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN9PR11MB5371.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6c7a1e38-29e0-48e2-0cdb-08da0c074f66 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Mar 2022 13:24:36.1489 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8pdyGwggvMXgNl0+oCGeQRwhFCL8VdkG/ojHAwDoC3k47YjnLzf0gckBYNbXKl66c4pD1U7U1JMJVP7+Gc/0vQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR11MB1566 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.227.253, xfe-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Taking up the syslog mantle X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:24:49 -0000 Hello, chairs and WG. At today's 113 meeting, the chairs mentioned the=0A= ietf-netmod-syslog draft needs a new editor to bring it back from the=0A= archive and fix up references, examples, and YANG imports. I did a=0A= quick read through, and I see a number of these issues already.=0A= =0A= If no one else has already opted to do this, I can take up this work and=0A= send diffs to the list. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2022-03-22 We mainly discussed optionality in YANG packages: - What optionality should we be able to describe ? (none ? deviations, opti= onal modules, etc ?) - How should that optionality look in the packages & library modules (API v= s implementation packages, deviations, features, etc) There is still a fair bit of work left on this topic (JTS: maybe a dedicate= d 2hr virtual interim ?) Next week we'll focus back on the WG LC for Module Versioning and YANG Semv= er. We need to dig into the LC comments. Jason ---------------------------------------------- Versioning work on Github: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt ---------------------------------------------- Weekly webex call details: Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, November 16, 2021 from 9:00 AM to 1= 0:00 AM, (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 9:00 AM | (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 1 hr https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) --_000_DM6PR08MB50841AFD3A0E571AFFF2C4799B179DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2022-03-22

 

We mainly discussed optionality in YANG packages:

- What optionality should we be able to describe ? (= none ? deviations, optional modules, etc ?)

- How should that optionality look in the packages &= amp; library modules (API vs implementation packages, deviations, features,= etc)

There is still a fair bit of work left on this topic= (JTS: maybe a dedicated 2hr virtual interim ?)

 

Next week we'll focus back on the WG LC for Module V= ersioning and YANG Semver. We need to dig into the LC comments.<= /p>

 

Jason

 

----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

Versioning work on Github:

https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt

 

----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

Weekly webex call details:

 

Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630

Meeting password: semver?

 

Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, November 16,= 2021 from 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

9:00 AM  |  (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US &= amp; Canada)  |  1 hr

 

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID= =3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754

Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only)

+1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (U= S/Canada)

--_000_DM6PR08MB50841AFD3A0E571AFFF2C4799B179DM6PR08MB5084namp_-- From nobody Tue Mar 22 12:32:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E669D3A11EB for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4yvTxijOmDGA for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D6753A0CA3 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id u3so6929374ybh.5 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7+W6bzsPI/Mrw7tRFppaPkctiKEwyOiKjM3UYdC7Jco=; b=zoVjjcBbHhxSq5YAh2gzxw/1wfWnmoEaLibUZ1mH91nroU4oZMG+uX7DevztcGi0Lt 9BjkmzYVHB1Ys5rMC1HR1Qysojp9vsExN51pL7tIbTYCaUe7/6luhoJrFRIrY3bOqix4 6Lp11HjCojYQNizQt6RW8JOY5PPNpN+0aNOzzATECWQDvz760y/v2HD41t/df/VG3fLL 5qlpz+4YwQxoFJTGZ6PDfZw4EIG+6oiWg2n9D45BaR/x+KgCvnbyeJJF/WIT+VpDSCkJ hh4X8+D2HFmHBUULYK2iJxo2zuh/iT/vT2zYscsijAOlOtvoZcfjkYflnfdXe5EmnhvI xZkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7+W6bzsPI/Mrw7tRFppaPkctiKEwyOiKjM3UYdC7Jco=; b=8K7/uw+mwfwFCMzV9YGnWAxDuLTatpkeeeJ3iBRs/T9of2yYNZwikW827lCXMOJakr k8rlvo4kI/Ns+nVsFspFzeDpks3TJc+dFawIwiDibIYJa7IZxLjjdPWcyBm+J0IrkNJG yrvKNyB0qWXmgYM/eycAzNztZ9PL1Fttti0+5xq8aDDpnGvdfkt0n0RTvvHyrmJRZLxZ re9AfOBnhdpBhjcGo5/hkp7eUt2Ezvr2FmaGFlXQk0cgRdNfoQWoU7kospMIuz3Ubq34 8Ywp19GKi1OoxBuNqYNtPbU8I1t/jcyjRPjBZv+2BVaOnoF9dP1Zgajo5kgIZiNy9d8a OqZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZHsBMuhjcR6OkwovXwR8/Kzn8lkvyfWizyL7hsK1xfPwZkv/I VM+qbn7dHHpmIPTU0CYP1xO/YhF8A1l+ALS5Vddtsg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyV7npVoc4AkGUHLYVgRGfFLP/Dg5YG/1iq8eoQ5WnE/O1vtdgsD/aILlPYRFb3kPHsU5wnz9AT7q5EMHjYMtU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:20e:b0:627:f1cb:a9ee with SMTP id j14-20020a056902020e00b00627f1cba9eemr2080015ybs.129.1647467965075; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220316052112.9F47A20D6AD@rfc-editor.org> <20220316061327.ce7mtqwhrk772fjw@anna> <4d482f9a-21be-b389-688a-85cfe739371f@alumni.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <4d482f9a-21be-b389-688a-85cfe739371f@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Presuhn Cc: RFC Errata System , Martin Bjorklund , Warren Kumari , Robert Wilton , Kent Watsen , Joel Jaeggli , Berger Lou , kaja.mohideen@nokia.com, NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d665a805da5d06e3" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:32:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6885) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:59:31 -0000 --000000000000d665a805da5d06e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:44 PM Randy Presuhn < randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: > Hi - > > On 2022-03-15 11:13 PM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder wrote: > > YANG update rules expect clients to be lenient about values they > > received but did not expect. It is possible to debate that design > > choice but this surely is not an errata, hence this errata should > > be rejected. > > I agree that the proposed erratum should be rejected. The text > of RFC 7950 says what the working group clearly intended, and is > consistent with the approach taken in the SNMP SMI, for whatever > that might be worth. > > +1 The RFCs are server-centric. It is not 100% clear what a NETCONF client MUST, SHOULD, or MAY do for various scenarios. I just scanned the text, and cannot find any that says a client MUST accept augmentations. Consider a client that ignores the server and YANG library (they are out there!). It is hard-wired to retrieve some subtree. If the server implements any module augmenting that subtree, the client drops the session because "unknown nodes" were found in the retrieved data. Clearly not the intent of the WG, not not clear RFC 7950 is being violated= . (Insert plug for YANG Conformance based on packages and NOT modules) Randy > Andy > > > /js > > > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 10:21:12PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote: > >> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950, > >> "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language". > >> > >> -------------------------------------- > >> You may review the report below and at: > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6885 > >> > >> -------------------------------------- > >> Type: Technical > >> Reported by: R Kaja Mohideen > >> > >> Section: 11 > >> > >> Original Text > >> ------------- > >> A definition in a published module may be revised in any of the > >> following ways: > >> > >> o An "enumeration" type may have new enums added, provided the ol= d > >> enums's values do not change. Note that inserting a new enum > >> before an existing enum or reordering existing enums will resul= t > >> in new values for the existing enums, unless they have explicit > >> values assigned to them. > >> > >> o A "bits" type may have new bits added, provided the old bit > >> positions do not change. Note that inserting a new bit before = an > >> existing bit or reordering existing bits will result in new > >> positions for the existing bits, unless they have explicit > >> positions assigned to them. > >> > >> Corrected Text > >> -------------- > >> See Notes. > >> > >> Notes > >> ----- > >> When server is exposing updated yang model as mentioned in Section 11, > particularly with enums, bits having new items - client systems that are > not updated to use the new yang module will not be able to recognize and > use the new values. > >> > >> This is problematic when there are multiple clients and those systems > are getting updated to catch up with yang changes over time. Updated > "Client A" recognizing new enum and using it (update datastore with new > value using edit-config), will make, old/not-yet-updated "Client B" to > encounter the new value (received as response of get-config) that it cann= ot > work with. > >> > >> So, the "backward compatible" ways of updating a yang module should > consider "multiple clients" scenario and make recommendations in such a w= ay > that clients are not forced to update all at once. > >> > >> Instructions: > >> ------------- > >> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > >> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > >> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > >> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > >> > >> -------------------------------------- > >> RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14) > >> -------------------------------------- > >> Title : The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language > >> Publication Date : August 2016 > >> Author(s) : M. Bjorklund, Ed. > >> Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > >> Source : Network Modeling > >> Area : Operations and Management > >> Stream : IETF > >> Verifying Party : IESG > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> netmod mailing list > >> netmod@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000d665a805da5d06e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:44 PM Randy= Presuhn <randy_pre= suhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi -

On 2022-03-15 11:13 PM, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder wrote:
> YANG update rules expect clients to be lenient about values they
> received but did not expect. It is possible to debate that design
> choice but this surely is not an errata, hence this errata should
> be rejected.

I agree that the proposed erratum should be rejected.=C2=A0 The text
of RFC 7950 says what the working group clearly intended, and is
consistent with the approach taken in the SNMP SMI, for whatever
that might be worth.


+1

The RFCs a= re server-centric.
It is not 100% clear what a NETCONF client MUS= T, SHOULD, or MAY do for various scenarios.
I just scanned the te= xt, and cannot find any that says a client MUST accept augmentations.
=

Consider a client that ignores the server <hello>= and YANG library (they are out there!).
It is hard-wired to retr= ieve some subtree.=C2=A0 If the server implements any module augmenting
that subtree, the client drops the session because "unknown nod= es" were found in the retrieved data.

Clearly= not the intent of the WG, not not clear RFC 7950=C2=A0 is being violated.<= /div>
(Insert plug for YANG Conformance based on packages and NOT modul= es)




Randy

Andy
=C2=A0

> /js
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 10:21:12PM -0700, RFC Errata System wrote:
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7950,
>> "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language".
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6885
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Technical
>> Reported by: R Kaja Mohideen <kaja.mohideen@nokia.com>
>>
>> Section: 11
>>
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A definition in a published module may be revis= ed in any of the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0following ways:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 An "enumeration" type may hav= e new enums added, provided the old
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 enums's values do not change.=C2=A0= Note that inserting a new enum
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 before an existing enum or reordering e= xisting enums will result
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in new values for the existing enums, u= nless they have explicit
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 values assigned to them.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A "bits" type may have new bi= ts added, provided the old bit
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 positions do not change.=C2=A0 Note tha= t inserting a new bit before an
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 existing bit or reordering existing bit= s will result in new
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 positions for the existing bits, unless= they have explicit
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 positions assigned to them.
>>
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>> See Notes.
>>
>> Notes
>> -----
>> When server is exposing updated yang model as mentioned in Section= 11, particularly with enums, bits having new items - client systems that a= re not updated to use the new yang module will not be able to recognize and= use the new values.
>>
>> This is problematic when there are multiple clients and those syst= ems are getting updated to catch up with yang changes over time. Updated &q= uot;Client A" recognizing new enum and using it (update datastore with= new value using edit-config), will make, old/not-yet-updated "Client = B" to encounter the new value (received as response of get-config) tha= t it cannot work with.
>>
>> So, the "backward compatible" ways of updating a yang mo= dule should consider "multiple clients" scenario and make recomme= ndations in such a way that clients are not forced to update all at once. >>
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If neces= sary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified= or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC7950 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6020bis-14)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: The = YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language
>> Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : August 2016
>> Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: M. Bjorklund, = Ed.
>> Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STAND= ARD
>> Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Network M= odeling
>> Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Oper= ations and Management
>> Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
>> Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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<0100017fb31915d5-7f8538f6-1afb-41f8-a6fc-aacc434d592a-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8113A0B20; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:27:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMM7ogrscfJK; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BEA13A095C; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1647977240; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=s3mLBrowkEopW+5DM2NWxfPAA7WId6FKhgSq33W/5CQ=; b=FuIHXwG+MhEPzLMhm1kcG0wGPophjA6yIQXSVmLHvBSjI/Nwjk+/fgTqnBqRmEPD xsGwWMnrvJWxROc1T8p7cLB7xWe3KGu4it7ByByrMWMUD7N54EzKn4uBmqCFslREa6u Vci2yzutOBKMnXRj3PpsRLaMKsYqu7sGmMR6dwAI= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DF2F8E0C-A3A0-4E2C-A4EC-AFA651F6937C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 19:27:20 +0000 Cc: "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" Message-ID: <0100017fb31915d5-7f8538f6-1afb-41f8-a6fc-aacc434d592a-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.22-54.240.48.93 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:32:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [netmod] Taking up the syslog mantle X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 19:27:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DF2F8E0C-A3A0-4E2C-A4EC-AFA651F6937C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [adding "netmod-chairs" to CC, moving "netmod" to BCC] Joe, Thank you! Here's the XML for v23 (note: v26 is current, hopefully the diffs aren't = too bad):=20 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-23.xml = I'm unsure why the XML isn't available for 24-26, but you may be able to = reach the authors for the -26 XML... I just created a GitHub repo for you: = https://github.com/netmod-wg/syslog-model What is your GitHub id? Kent > On Mar 22, 2022, at 9:24 AM, Joe Clarke (jclarke) = wrote: >=20 > Hello, chairs and WG. At today's 113 meeting, the chairs mentioned = the > ietf-netmod-syslog draft needs a new editor to bring it back from the > archive and fix up references, examples, and YANG imports. I did a > quick read through, and I see a number of these issues already. >=20 > If no one else has already opted to do this, I can take up this work = and > send diffs to the list. And if there are other outstanding issues, I > can look at those as well. >=20 > Joe >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --Apple-Mail=_DF2F8E0C-A3A0-4E2C-A4EC-AFA651F6937C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
[adding "netmod-chairs" to CC, moving "netmod" to = BCC]


Joe,

Thank you!

Here's the XML for v23 (note: v26 is current, hopefully the = diffs aren't too bad): 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-= 23.xml

I'm = unsure why the XML isn't available for 24-26, but you may be able to = reach the authors for the -26 XML...

I= just created a GitHub repo for you: https://github.com/netmod-wg/syslog-model

What is your GitHub id?

Kent



On Mar 22, 2022, at 9:24 AM, Joe Clarke = (jclarke) <jclarke=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello,= chairs and WG.  At today's 113 meeting, the chairs mentioned = the
ietf-netmod-syslog draft needs a new editor to bring = it back from the
archive and fix up references, examples, = and YANG imports.  I did a
quick read through, and I = see a number of these issues already.

If no = one else has already opted to do this, I can take up this work and
send diffs to the list.  And if there are other = outstanding issues, I
can look at those as well.

Joe

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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Such a client when encountering ‘unknown’ nodes can either fail or ignore those nodes. It’s the client choice. But, with expanded range of ‘enum and bits’, there is no choice but to fail as the ‘value’ is now unknown. OK. > I do not agree that an expanded value space necessarily implies that clients have to fail. > 2/ If I understand right, RFC 7950 – Section 11 is talking about ways to update yang module so the existing data in the server doesn’t gets invalidated. That’s why the new data definition to be optional or conditional using if-feature. Not about clients at all. Thank you for making this clear. Shouldn’t the RFC text capture this so readers are informed? > The update rules defined in Section 11 try to guarantee that server updates do not break existing clients. This requires that clients play nicely with data that they do not understand and it requires that updates are done in a way to maintain backwards compatibility with existing clients. I wonder what makes you believe this would be different. I am trimming the CC list since we already concluded that this is not an errata. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 22 13:11:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC233A0DE8; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:11:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <164797988106.30355.1850110135432378189@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:11:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-13.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:11:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : Common YANG Data Types Author : Juergen Schoenwaelder Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-13.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2022-03-22 Abstract: This document defines a collection of common data types to be used with the YANG data modeling language. This document obsoletes RFC 6991. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-13 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-13 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Tue Mar 22 22:22:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43783A0A53 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:22:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Such a client when encountering ‘unknown’ nodes can either fail or ignore those nodes. It’s the client choice. But, with expanded range of ‘enum and bits’, there is no choice but to fail as the ‘value’ is now unknown. OK. > > > > I do not agree that an expanded value space necessarily implies that clients have to fail. > > [R Kaja Mohideen] What else the client can do? How can the client map the new value to one of the old values it recognize? Whatever the scenario the client is trying to get done, at least the specific step cannot be considered 'successful'. > It depends on the semantics of the type/leaf, there is no generic answer or mapping rule that does the right thing. Yes, multiple clients configuring the same parts of a data model on a server using different versions of the data model is not trivial (but such a scenario is by design not trivial). /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Mar 22 23:57:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C643A0E17 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYEVvrfzHrV7 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33E513A0E0D for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KNfLC6r4GzDCcv; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 07:57:23 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20220322200404.wtwnqt6wpu2hn645@anna> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 07:57:23 +0100 Cc: "Mohideen, Kaja (Nokia - IN/Chennai)" , NetMod WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <49FB69C4-44A1-42EF-B63E-19AE97683A4C@tzi.org> References: <20220316052112.9F47A20D6AD@rfc-editor.org> <20220316061327.ce7mtqwhrk772fjw@anna> <4d482f9a-21be-b389-688a-85cfe739371f@alumni.stanford.edu> <20220322200404.wtwnqt6wpu2hn645@anna> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7950 (6885) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 06:57:33 -0000 On 22. Mar 2022, at 21:04, J=C3=BCrgen Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder = wrote: >=20 > updates are done in a way to maintain backwards compatibility (Forward compatibility? Backward compatibility =3D old data, new system. Forward compatibility =3D new data, old system. 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Mar 2022, at 21:04, Jürgen Schönwälder wrote: > > > > updates are done in a way to maintain backwards compatibility > > (Forward compatibility? > Backward compatibility = old data, new system. > Forward compatibility = new data, old system. > Just saying…) > The design goal was to ensure that server upgrades do not break existing clients. We commonly call YANG data model changes ensuring that old clients continue to work 'backwards compatible'. This discussion seems to be about a scenario where a server has been upgraded and there are old and new clients talking to the same server, i.e., the problem is a version mix on the client side. 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comments questions are belo= w. Regards Balazs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D General) I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot impro= vements. The term system-configuration is used confusingly. Does system-configuration reside in the datastore only or can it reside in the datastore too? If system-configuration is copied by the client (+) into the datastore is it still system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the syste= m. Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean a specific data node IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (according to the path in the data tree) in different datastores need to be referenced separately. Does the solution allow conditional system configuration? (E.g., if the client creates an OSPF interface the system inserts a child = leaf into it) 1.1) If system shares the same schema as running that would force it to populate mandatory nodes. That might be a problem. State that mandatory or min-elements might not be enforced in . 1.3) "client may overwrite values of configurations defined in " However it also states: The contents of datastore are read-only These seem to contradict. Please clarify. 1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-config might also need system configured items. It should be mentioned that the sa= me "resolution" is also needed after a node-restart. What does populate mean? Is it the same as "copy from system to running" ? = If yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as specific. 2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms provided, activated, ap= plied. I am not sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item present in the datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-data on will I receive not-applied data nodes? What is the difference between an applied and an activated data node and an applied but not activated data node? I would rather see terminology like: - is present in the datastore - is not yet present in the datastore, but the system will create = it in the datastore when a condition is fulfilled. How is it defined for specific schema nodes which kind of system-data it is= ? Free English text? Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough if the server knows th= is? 2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the functionality is licensed an= d the license key is inserted? 3.1) is also read-only so why is that better to store deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config originated data cannot be delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that true both for explicit NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system? 3.2) If something was populated/copied over to running/candidate will/shoul= d any changed system values be copied over again thereby updating the running/candidate datastores? Can this result in the running becoming invalid? 4.1) You write "The client may reference nodes defined in , overwrite values of configurations defined in " IMHO the data nodes in and are 2 different things even if they reside on the same path in the data tree. You need to find terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in differen= t datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I need to guess which datastore you mean. I think this guessing process might hide problems. Do you mean here: "The client may reference nodes defined in if th= ey are copied into / as a result of an explicit copy or resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a data node in running and referencing a data node in (even if they share the same address in the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think you want to create a reference that point between datastores. Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data nodes that were created by copying from the datastore." " MAY overwrite and/or extend " this means that the data nodes in system are modified although they are readOnly. Is this what you mean? Clarify! "Note that only aware clients copy referenced system nodes from " How does the server know if the client is system-aware? It would be better = to state something like: 'In order for the system configuration to affect validation the client need= s to either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy system configura= tion into running' Last para: The server has no way to know if the client is system aware. Onc= e the data nodes are copied into there is no need to say more. 4.2 "If the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client." I very strongly OBJECT. - It is a bad idea. - This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG. - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability to modify . Th= ey have data nodes where it is stated that list entries are not created by the= client. - This would need a revision 2 of YANG. - It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work around it. The system instantiates an onboard client to do the changes AND the system prohibits the change for other clients. However this is just a more complicated way of stating that the system itse= lf modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world more complicated. 4.3 Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you configure something in running it becomes part of running independent of this draft. Mention that the system itself can also copy over parts or the complete system configuration into running. 4.4 In some cases, a server may allow some parts of system configuration to be modified. List keys in system configuration can't be changed by a client, but other descendant nodes in a list entry may be modifiable or non-modifiable. This contradicts the statement that the datastore is readOnly. "Client configuration statements in take precedence over system configuration nodes in " Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a subchapter, there should= be a separate chapter about merging running and system into intended, stating = that running has precedence. This a tier 1 important statement ! There could be some interesting corner cases. Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is it there is l= ost, so terms like "client configuration" are hard to understand. That sounds mo= re like a use-case than a rule. "While modifying (overriding) system configuration nodes may be supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node." Once the node is in the datastore if it is not mandatory it is possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it was the client that cop= ied the configuration into ? Is the client forbidden to remve somethin= g that it created itself? I don't think so. 5. "datastore does not have to persist across reboots." 'I would say: The content of the datastore is removed at reboot and re-created by the system with the same or changed content.' IMHO it is important to state that there will be some reasonable content in= the datastore even if it might have changed. 7.1 "Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if the RESTCONF server implements the "resolve-system" parameter?" Make it a capability in the hello message like with-defaults. 7.2 The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be inside = the element. --_000_VI1PR0701MB235184BA97687CA841C772AAF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comm= ents questions are below.

Regards Balazs

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

General)

I think this work is important and valuable, but it = needs quite a lot improvements.

 

The term system-configuration is used confusingly. D= oes

system-configuration reside in the <system> da= tastore only or can it

reside in the <running> datastore too? If syst= em-configuration is copied by

the client (<get-data>+<edit-config>) in= to the <running> datastore is it

still system-configuration? It is set by the client = this time not the system.

 

Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean= a specific data node

IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (accordi= ng to the path in the

data tree) in different datastores need to be refere= nced separately.

 

Does the solution allow conditional system configura= tion?

(E.g.,  if the client creates an OSPF interface= the system inserts a child leaf into it)

 

1.1) If system shares the same schema as running tha= t would force it to

populate mandatory nodes.  That might be a prob= lem.

State that mandatory or min-elements might not be en= forced in <system>.

 

1.3) “client may overwrite values of configura= tions defined in <system>”

However it also states: The contents of <system&g= t; datastore are read-only

These seem to contradict. Please clarify.=

 

1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-con= fig

might also need system configured items. It should b= e mentioned that the same

"resolution" is also needed after a node-r= estart.

 

What does populate mean? Is it the same as "cop= y from system to running" ? If

yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as = specific.

 

2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms = provided, activated, applied. I am not

sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item pres= ent in the <system>

datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-= data on <system>

will I receive not-applied data nodes?

 

What is the difference between an applied and an act= ivated data node and an

applied but not activated data node?

 

I would rather see terminology like:

- is present in the <system> datastore

- is not yet present in the <system> datastore= , but the system will create it

in the <system> datastore when a condition is = fulfilled.

 

How is it defined for specific schema nodes which ki= nd of system-data it is ?

Free English text?

Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough= if the server knows this?

 

2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the funct= ionality is licensed and

the license key is inserted?

 

3.1) <factory-default> is also read-only so wh= y is that better to store

deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config ori= ginated data cannot be

delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that= true both for explicit

NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system?<= o:p>

 

3.2) If something was populated/copied over to runni= ng/candidate will/should

any changed system values be copied over again there= by updating the

running/candidate datastores?

Can this result in the running becoming invalid?

 

4.1)  You write

"The client may reference nodes defined in <= system>, overwrite values

   of configurations defined in <system= >"

IMHO the data nodes in <running> and <syste= m> are 2 different things even

if they reside on the same path in the data tree. Yo= u need to find

terminology to differentiate between the same(-path)= data nodes in different

datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I = need to guess which

datastore you mean. I think this guessing process mi= ght hide problems.

Do you mean here: "The client may reference nod= es defined in <system> if they are

copied into <running>/<candidate> as a r= esult of an explicit copy or

resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a= data node in running and

referencing a data node in <system> (even if t= hey share the same address in

the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think = you want to create a

reference that point between datastores.<= /p>

Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data= nodes that were created by

copying from the <system> datastore."

 

"<running> MAY overwrite and/or extend &l= t;system>" this means that the

data nodes in system are modified although they are = readOnly.

Is this what you mean? Clarify!

 

"Note that only <system> aware clients co= py

   referenced system nodes from <system= >"

How does the server know if the client is system-awa= re? It would be better to

state something like:

'In order for the system configuration to affect val= idation the client needs to

either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitl= y copy system configuration

into running'

 

Last para: The server has no way to know if the clie= nt is system aware. Once

the data nodes are copied into <running> there= is no need to say more.

 

4.2

"If the "resolve-system" parameter is= not given by the client, the server

   MUST NOT modify <running> in any = way not specified by the client."

I very strongly OBJECT.

- It is a bad idea.

- This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG.

- Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability = to modify <running>. They

have data nodes where it is stated that list entries= are not created by the client.

- This would need a revision 2 of YANG.

- It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to = work around it.

The system instantiates an onboard client to do the = changes AND the system

prohibits the change for other clients.

However this is just a more complicated way of stati= ng that the system itself

modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world= more complicated.

 

4.3

Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not = needed. If you configure

something in running it becomes part of running inde= pendent of this draft.

 

Mention that the system itself  can also copy o= ver parts or the complete

system configuration into running.

 

4.4

In some cases, a server may allow some parts of syst= em configuration

   to be modified.  List keys in syst= em configuration can't be changed

   by a client, but other descendant nodes= in a list entry may be

   modifiable or non-modifiable.

  

 This contradicts the statement that the <sy= stem> datastore is readOnly.

 

"Client configuration statements in <running= > take precedence over system

configuration nodes in <system>"

 

Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a s= ubchapter, there should be

a separate chapter about merging running and system = into intended, stating that running has precedence.

This a tier 1 important statement !

There could be some interesting corner cases.

 

Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge abo= ut why is it there is lost,

so terms like "client configuration" are h= ard to understand. That sounds more

like a use-case than a rule.

 

"While modifying (overriding) system configurat= ion nodes may be

   supported by a server, there is no mech= anism for deleting a system

   configuration node."

  

Once the node is in the <running> datastore if= it is not mandatory it is

possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it = was the client that copied

the configuration into <running>? Is the clien= t forbidden to remve something

that it created itself? I don't think so.=

 

5.

"datastore does not have to persist across rebo= ots."

'I would say: The content of the datastore is remove= d at reboot and

re-created by the system with the same or changed co= ntent.'

IMHO it is important to state that there will be som= e reasonable content in the

<system> datastore even if it might have chang= ed.

 

7.1

"Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if th= e RESTCONF server

   implements the "resolve-system&quo= t; parameter?"

Make it a capability in the hello message like with-= defaults.

 

7.2

The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorre= ct. It shall be inside the

<edit-config> element.

 

 

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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I did a review of the immutable draft. My comments questions are below. Regards Balazs General) I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot impro= vements. Why is immutable connected to instances. IMO it should be a schema property= . If we connect it to instances it is hard/impossible to specify "it is prohi= bited to create a new container, list entry of leaf-list value". That is clearly needed for t= he capability-check use-case. Maybe allow it on both schema and instance ? If we make this a schema property it can be documented in a transparent man= ner with a YANG extension statement. If it is handled as instance connected met= adata the client cannot know a-priori whether a data node is or is not immutable.= This information is only available in runtime. System integrators, OSS developers will have = a problem. As immutability is connected to instance (now) this raises the question how stable this property is? - We don't say anything; the server can keep it stable or make the data nod= e immutable every odd second and writable every even second - The property should be relatively stable in an unspecified manner - The property shall be set when the data node is created and the property should not change till the data node is deleted/replaced - Can the immutable property be set on just some interfaces e.g. the leaf is readOnly on the CLI but writable on Netconf ? If we make immutable a schema-property, the problem will not arise. IMO it would be important to list the use-cases we want to solve. I provide= 3 below. Ch 1) I don't like paragraph 2. Someone could say just declare the interface name config=3Dfalse which is a quite usual solution. I would rather change the first and second paragraphs to: "YANG [RFC7950] is a data modeling language used to model both state and configuration data, based on the "config" statement. However there is d= ata that should not be modifiable by the client, but still needs to be declared as config true. Some examples of this problem are presented below: Interfaces are represented as list entries. The list schema node must be defined as config=3Dtrue as many of its child leaves need to be configurabl= e by the client. However the interface name and type values are set by the syste= m, based on the hardware actually present in the device, and must not be modif= ied by clients. The natural solution would be to declare the name (which is the list's key) and the type as config=3Dfalse. However according to the rules = of YANG the key leaf for a configuration list must also be config=3Dtrue. Thus= the leaf /interfaces/interface/name is config true even if it might not be writable in some systems. System capabilities might be represented as system-set data nodes in the mo= del. Configurable data nodes might need constraints specified as "when", "must" = or "path" statements to ensure that configuration is set according to the syst= em's capabilities. E.g., - a timer can support the values 1,5,8 seconds. This is defined in the leaf-list 'supported-timer-values'. - When the configurable 'interface-timer' leaf is set it should be ensured = that one of the supported values is used. The natural solution would be to make = the 'interface-timer' a leaf-ref pointing at the 'supported-timer-values'. However, this is not possible as 'supported-timer-values' must be readOnly = thus config=3Dfalse while 'interface-timer' must be writable thus config=3Dtrue. According to the rules of YANG it is not allowed to put a constraint betwee= n config true and false schema nodes. If configuration is created by the system (e.g., copied from the datastore to the datastore it might need to be protected. In some cases there is a need to ensure that system-originated configuration shall not be altered even after it is copied over to the datastore." Ch 2) "Create an immutable data node with a same value initially set by the system if it doesn't exist in the datastore, e.g., explicitly configure a system generated interface name in ;" IMO this is not needed because - If the data already exists in the datastore it cannot be created according to Netconf rules. - If it does not exist in the datastore there is nothing that cou= ld be immutable as immutable is linked to the instances. The above is independent of what is defined in Until now we never had any constraints between 2 datastores like: you can update datastore1 if datastore2 contains something. I don't think we want to introduce that either. "Comment: Should we allow the client delete an "immutable" system instantiated node in ?" Once a data node is instantiated there is no record where it came from. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#section-5.3.4 states that ori= gin is only maintained in the datastore. Unless we want to introdu= ce it into . So the even the question is wrong as we don't know which data is system instantiated. Servers MUST reject any attempt to the "create", "delete" and "update" access operations on an immutable data node " Create cannot be handled. see comment on chapter 2. Ch2 last paragraph) Edit-config is not allowed towards the startup datastor= e so it shouldn't be mentioned here. Why wait with error reporting for candid= ate. Is there any chance that the immutability might change? A.2) Interesting example, but it would not work because the use may always insert a rule(-list) before the immutable rule(s) that will make the imuuta= ble rules ineffective. The problem is that the rule(-sets) are a user ordered l= ist where the order matters. It is not enough to protect the individual rule(se= ts) the order would also need protection. IMHO it would be much easier and just as useful to define an extension sta= tement: extension immutable { description "Indicates that a data node contains data that is loaded by the system and cannot be created/deleted/changed through t= he Netconf, Restconf or other management interfaces like SNMP, CLI. The data MAY be marked as config true to allow leafref, when or must constraints to be based on it. The statement MUST only be a substatement of the leaf, leaf-list, container, list, anydata, anyxml statements. Zero or one static-data statement per parent statement is allowed. The argument is a boolean value indicating whether the data node is considered static-data or not. If static-data is not specified, the default is the same as the parent data node's value. For top level data nodes the default value is false. When the effective immutable value is true, the 'description' statem= ent of the parent statement SHOULD contain the text 'This data node (tree) cannot be changed in a running system.' "; argument value; } --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351E62F3090536AEAB993DBF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I did a review of the immutable draft. My comments q= uestions are below.

Regards Balazs

 

General)

I think this work is important and valuable, but it = needs quite a lot improvements.

 

Why is immutable connected to instances. IMO it shou= ld be a schema property.

If we connect it to instances it is hard/impossible = to specify “it is prohibited to create a

new container, list entry of leaf-list value”.= That is clearly needed for the

capability-check use-case. Maybe allow it on both sc= hema and instance ?

 

If we make this a schema property it can be document= ed in a transparent manner

with a YANG extension statement. If it is handled as= instance connected metadata

the client cannot know a-priori whether a data node = is or is not immutable. This information

is only available in runtime. System integrators, OS= S developers will have a problem.

 

As immutability is connected to instance (now) this = raises the question how

stable this property is?

- We don't say anything; the server can keep it stab= le or make the data node

immutable every odd second and writable every even s= econd

- The property should be relatively stable in an uns= pecified manner

- The property shall be set when the data node is cr= eated and the property

should not change till the data node is deleted/repl= aced

- Can the immutable property be set on just some int= erfaces e.g. the

leaf is readOnly on the CLI but writable on Netconf = ?

If we make immutable a schema-property, the problem = will not arise.

 

IMO it would be important to list the use-cases we w= ant to solve. I provide 3 below.

 

 

Ch 1)

I don't like paragraph 2. Someone could say just dec= lare the interface name

config=3Dfalse which is a quite usual solution.=

 

I would rather change the first and second paragraph= s to:

 

"YANG [RFC7950] is a data modeling language use= d to model both state

and configuration data, based on the "config&qu= ot; statement. However there is data

that should not be modifiable by the client, but sti= ll needs to be declared

as config true. Some examples of this problem are pr= esented below:

 

Interfaces are represented as list entries. The list= schema node must be

defined as config=3Dtrue as many of its child leaves= need to be configurable by

the client. However the interface name and type valu= es are set by the system,

based on the hardware actually present in the device= , and must not be modified

by clients. The natural solution would be to declare= the name (which is the

list's key) and the type as config=3Dfalse. However = according to the rules of

YANG the key leaf for a configuration list must also= be config=3Dtrue. Thus the

leaf /interfaces/interface/name is config true even = if it might not be

writable in some systems.

 

System capabilities might be represented as system-s= et data nodes in the model.

Configurable data nodes might need constraints speci= fied as "when", "must" or

"path" statements to ensure that configura= tion is set according to the system's

capabilities. E.g.,

- a timer can support the values 1,5,8 seconds. This= is defined in the

leaf-list ‘supported-timer-values’.

- When the configurable ‘interface-timer’= ; leaf is set it should be ensured that

one of the supported values is used. The natural sol= ution would be to make the

‘interface-timer’ a leaf-ref pointing at= the ‘supported-timer-values’.

However, this is not possible as ‘supported-ti= mer-values’ must be readOnly thus

config=3Dfalse while ‘interface-timer’ m= ust be writable thus config=3Dtrue.

According to the rules of YANG it is not allowed to = put a constraint between

config true and false schema nodes.

 

If configuration is created by the system (e.g., cop= ied from the <system>

datastore to the <running> datastore it might = need to be protected. In some

cases there is a need to ensure that system-originat= ed configuration shall

not be altered even after it is copied over to the &= lt;running> datastore.”

 

 

Ch 2)

"Create an immutable data node with a same valu= e initially set by

      the system if it does= n't exist in the datastore, e.g., explicitly

      configure a system ge= nerated interface name in <running>;"

IMO this is not needed because

- If the data already exists in the <running> = datastore it cannot be

created according to Netconf rules.

- If it does not exist in the <running> datast= ore there is nothing that could

be immutable as immutable is linked to the instances= .

The above is independent of what is defined in <s= ystem>

 

Until now we never

had any constraints between 2 datastores like: =

you can update datastore1 if datastore2 contains som= ething.

I don't think we want to introduce that either.=

 

"Comment: Should we allow the client delete an = "immutable" system

   instantiated node in <running> ?&= quot;

Once a data node is instantiated there is no record = where it came from.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#section-5= .3.4 states that origin

is only maintained in the <operations> datasto= re. Unless we want to introduce

it into <running>. So the even the question is= wrong as we don't know which

data is system instantiated.

 

Servers MUST reject any attempt to the "create&= quot;, "delete" and

   "update" access operations on= an immutable data node "

  

 Create cannot be handled. see comment on chapt= er 2.

Ch2 last paragraph) Edit-config is not allowed towar= ds the startup datastore

so it shouldn't be mentioned here. Why wait with err= or reporting for candidate.

Is there any chance that the immutability might chan= ge?

 

A.2) Interesting example, but it would not work beca= use the use may always

insert a rule(-list) before the immutable rule(s) th= at will make the imuutable

rules ineffective. The problem is that the rule(-set= s) are a user ordered list

where the order matters. It is not enough to protect= the individual rule(sets)

the order would also need protection.

 

IMHO it would be much easier and just as useful to d= efine  an extension statement:

 

extension immutable {

    description

      "Indicates that = a data node contains data that is

       loaded by the s= ystem and cannot be created/deleted/changed through the

       Netconf, Restco= nf or other management interfaces like SNMP, CLI.

 

       The data MAY be= marked as config true to allow leafref,

       when or must co= nstraints to be based on it.

 

       The statement M= UST only be a substatement of the leaf, leaf-list,

       container, list= , anydata, anyxml statements.

       Zero or one sta= tic-data statement per parent statement is allowed.

 

       The argument is= a boolean value indicating whether the data node

       is considered s= tatic-data or not. If static-data is not specified,

       the default is = the same as the parent data node's value. For top

       level data node= s the default value is false.

 

       When the effect= ive immutable value is true, the ‘description’ statement of

       the parent stat= ement SHOULD contain the text 'This data node (tree)

       cannot be chang= ed in a running system.' ";

    argument value;

  }

--_000_VI1PR0701MB2351E62F3090536AEAB993DBF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_-- From nobody Wed Mar 23 13:10:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D1F3A0B58 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:10:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5KxOKrqUSi8Z for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1132.google.com (mail-yw1-x1132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5A133A0B2F for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1132.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e612af95e3so30102377b3.9 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cPWjB4sriIoNgAazrqRVTb6AOwZQZ2Q7zXtci+8HpZ0=; b=as361X5jmwoyQixxPtWbrUoNYinIbE1SvaZKNkbX1GVU98S9I0rwFyYsoK1eExEZOW LUHNgAJMRL1xwE0lyA71JZzZy8tn9xnLaql9kD9I75B9QzALn0R0hNQwlsBtOQflGCly bOmtlQRe34RnDQAR0GnC5Fhd8cHTQDb5FREzlPQPlCh1/8C2kmcVojj5jU6SxNOTteTX 8H4XYviMH8ozjNcY5icGEKTl15r85vTUlKYzYXyhpoNzgSUhqiXlsdEfBnhypdTBML1S pmFmf3vMJtb8h8fRDYTrIz6stzUGvmCgF/RjdO3UDedHSeoYta8EpYXm+pLx/VWbq7zf jrbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cPWjB4sriIoNgAazrqRVTb6AOwZQZ2Q7zXtci+8HpZ0=; b=oNuKndUak78cPakA1B7bd86HG/KyMM3QyboCRm/quituF1NR2B0sxVc3X7jhhldjZl oenE5BoF/tHmFW9ut3EODY2OK3tD9kp2UHYp9V46zghWWAY9lT+yIOjw+5XsWVOL4YrO GRSrVx2rT1c4jNPgEDb3y1IQcKE8kQ+uCoM3wd0G22A+TZze967z5UPU2ywi93LKih7J ZJr9DXduud7Y/BhCl2ZVhhTFY8/0chJgGm/hzensPweC1PqWBSw7oOEIOvq5ptFN5tYq 2Zb8MyT5hWW9McFfXC/pIZQAVY/UHvJ7RAWQtVbxIUkbZXVLFjD4jETx9FDnQOBB+gM3 7gog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533BDuZTQ+T4zAjEm+7an7YZpa6+rWGGIniDOSB5vICHEMAiCDQn oxEb+LH/eOU8nbYRwceHfCVJbqGI0GxpqOwCc8LeWJLQB6ulCg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxh1uqhIF/u3eilQkumnZ4AiGXf4H51zy/jTr3LxI0hgnjn6kOfvyrLAyDuz8V93185B7knZHzXcWjYWEg5ccU= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5dd6:0:b0:2d6:3041:12e0 with SMTP id r205-20020a815dd6000000b002d6304112e0mr1748533ywb.331.1648066200398; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:09:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007100c705dae850e6" Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:10:07 -0000 --0000000000007100c705dae850e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing mix of proprietary solutions. We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely deployed. A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access operations. https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html#ncx-user-write Andy --0000000000007100c705dae850e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

IMO the problem should be viewe= d as a refinement to the
access control policy of the device.=C2= =A0 A standard mechanism
such as a YANG extension would be better= than a growing
mix of proprietary solutions.

We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is w= idely deployed.
A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, = so a bits type is
needed instead to allow control of create, upda= te, and delete access operations.


<= a href=3D"https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-gu= ide.html#ncx-user-write">https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yuma= pro-yangauto-guide.html#ncx-user-write

Andy

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ABdhPJzYRsaGbtJHoh/2YpbtqPBKWobcXlb4RpCsHJnNElpG+O28b49WWIw9TfiZieE9odmx+fxXQr/LmTcbyFOdMBc= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5dd6:0:b0:2d6:3041:12e0 with SMTP id r205-20020a815dd6000000b002d6304112e0mr2072265ywb.331.1648071152531; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:32:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:32:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c965905dae9776a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:32:39 -0000 --0000000000009c965905dae9776a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Andy, > > I also propose an extension. (see my mail Review of > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00) > > In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but do see the need for > applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to protect a full > subtree. > > > > Why do you need the exceptions? Could you provide some use-case examples = ? > I think create/delete-only and modify-only access modes are used the most, after no-access. Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or may require more work to undo the extension used in an ancestor node. This impacts the extension usage within a grouping. Regards Balazs > Andy > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > Hi, > > > > IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the > > access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism > > such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing > > mix of proprietary solutions. > > > > We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely deployed= . > > A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is > > needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access > operations. > > > > > > > https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html= #ncx-user-write > > > > > > > Andy > > > --0000000000009c965905dae9776a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

I also propose an extension. (see my mail Review of = draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00)

In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but do se= e the need for applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to protec= t a full subtree.

=C2=A0

Why do you need the exceptions? Could you provide so= me use-case examples ?


I th= ink create/delete-only and modify-only access modes are used the most, afte= r no-access.
Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or may r= equire more work to
undo the extension used in an ancestor node. = This impacts the extension usage within a grouping.


Regards Balazs


=
Andy
=C2=A0

<= u>

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-= flag-00

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to = the

access control policy of the device.=C2=A0 A standar= d mechanism

such as a YANG extension would be better than a grow= ing

mix of proprietary solutions.

=C2=A0

We have such a YANG extension called "user-writ= e" that is widely deployed.

A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so = a bits type is

needed instead to allow control of create, update, a= nd delete access operations.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

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Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:37:59 +0000 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:35:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Reshad Rahman Reply-To: Reshad Rahman To: "'netmod@ietf.org'" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Message-ID: <1438643430.1224197.1648071339243@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1224196_1506822806.1648071339238" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.19894 YMailNorrin Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Review of draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:38:06 -0000 ------=_Part_1224196_1506822806.1648071339238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I went through the doc, have not reviewed it extensively but +1 to this com= ment from Balazs. I don't see the use-case for supporting this per instance= either. If we make this a schema property it can be documented in a transparent man= ner with a YANG extension statement. If it is handled as instance connected met= adata the client cannot know a-priori whether a data node is or is not immutable.= This information is only available in runtime. System integrators, OSS developers will have = a problem. Regards,Reshad. On Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 03:23:32 PM EDT, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: =20 =20 =20 Hello, =20 I did a review of the immutable draft. My comments questions are below. =20 Regards Balazs =20 =C2=A0 =20 General) =20 I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot impro= vements. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Why is immutable connected to instances. IMO it should be a schema property= . =20 If we connect it to instances it is hard/impossible to specify =E2=80=9Cit = is prohibited to create a =20 new container, list entry of leaf-list value=E2=80=9D. That is clearly need= ed for the =20 capability-check use-case. Maybe allow it on both schema and instance ? =20 =C2=A0 =20 If we make this a schema property it can be documented in a transparent man= ner =20 with a YANG extension statement. If it is handled as instance connected met= adata =20 the client cannot know a-priori whether a data node is or is not immutable.= This information =20 is only available in runtime. System integrators, OSS developers will have = a problem. =20 =C2=A0 =20 As immutability is connected to instance (now) this raises the question how =20 stable this property is?=20 =20 - We don't say anything; the server can keep it stable or make the data nod= e =20 immutable every odd second and writable every even second =20 - The property should be relatively stable in an unspecified manner =20 - The property shall be set when the data node is created and the property =20 should not change till the data node is deleted/replaced =20 - Can the immutable property be set on just some interfaces e.g. the =20 leaf is readOnly on the CLI but writable on Netconf ? =20 If we make immutable a schema-property, the problem will not arise. =20 =C2=A0 =20 IMO it would be important to list the use-cases we want to solve. I provide= 3 below. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Ch 1)=20 =20 I don't like paragraph 2. Someone could say just declare the interface name =20 config=3Dfalse which is a quite usual solution. =20 =C2=A0 =20 I would rather change the first and second paragraphs to: =20 =C2=A0 =20 "YANG [RFC7950] is a data modeling language used to model both state =20 and configuration data, based on the "config" statement. However there is d= ata =20 that should not be modifiable by the client, but still needs to be declared =20 as config true. Some examples of this problem are presented below: =20 =C2=A0 =20 Interfaces are represented as list entries. The list schema node must be =20 defined as config=3Dtrue as many of its child leaves need to be configurabl= e by =20 the client. However the interface name and type values are set by the syste= m, =20 based on the hardware actually present in the device, and must not be modif= ied =20 by clients. The natural solution would be to declare the name (which is the =20 list's key) and the type as config=3Dfalse. However according to the rules = of =20 YANG the key leaf for a configuration list must also be config=3Dtrue. Thus= the =20 leaf /interfaces/interface/name is config true even if it might not be =20 writable in some systems. =20 =C2=A0 =20 System capabilities might be represented as system-set data nodes in the mo= del. =20 Configurable data nodes might need constraints specified as "when", "must" = or =20 "path" statements to ensure that configuration is set according to the syst= em's =20 capabilities. E.g.,=20 =20 - a timer can support the values 1,5,8 seconds. This is defined in the =20 leaf-list =E2=80=98supported-timer-values=E2=80=99.=20 =20 - When the configurable =E2=80=98interface-timer=E2=80=99 leaf is set it sh= ould be ensured that =20 one of the supported values is used. The natural solution would be to make = the =20 =E2=80=98interface-timer=E2=80=99 a leaf-ref pointing at the =E2=80=98suppo= rted-timer-values=E2=80=99. =20 However, this is not possible as =E2=80=98supported-timer-values=E2=80=99 m= ust be readOnly thus =20 config=3Dfalse while =E2=80=98interface-timer=E2=80=99 must be writable thu= s config=3Dtrue. =20 According to the rules of YANG it is not allowed to put a constraint betwee= n =20 config true and false schema nodes. =20 =C2=A0 =20 If configuration is created by the system (e.g., copied from the =20 datastore to the datastore it might need to be protected. In some =20 cases there is a need to ensure that system-originated configuration shall =20 not be altered even after it is copied over to the datastore.=E2= =80=9D =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Ch 2) =20 "Create an immutable data node with a same value initially set by =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the system if it doesn't exist in the datast= ore, e.g., explicitly =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 configure a system generated interface name = in ;" =20 IMO this is not needed because=20 =20 - If the data already exists in the datastore it cannot be =20 created according to Netconf rules.=20 =20 - If it does not exist in the datastore there is nothing that cou= ld =20 be immutable as immutable is linked to the instances. =20 The above is independent of what is defined in =20 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Until now we never=20 =20 had any constraints between 2 datastores like:=20 =20 you can update datastore1 if datastore2 contains something. =20 I don't think we want to introduce that either. =20 =C2=A0 =20 "Comment: Should we allow the client delete an "immutable" system =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0 instantiated node in ?" =20 Once a data node is instantiated there is no record where it came from. =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#section-5.3.4 states that ori= gin =20 is only maintained in the datastore. Unless we want to introdu= ce =20 it into . So the even the question is wrong as we don't know which =20 data is system instantiated. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Servers MUST reject any attempt to the "create", "delete" and =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0 "update" access operations on an immutable data node " =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=20 =20 =C2=A0Create cannot be handled. see comment on chapter 2. =20 =20 Ch2 last paragraph) Edit-config is not allowed towards the startup datastor= e =20 so it shouldn't be mentioned here. Why wait with error reporting for candid= ate. =20 Is there any chance that the immutability might change? =20 =C2=A0 =20 A.2) Interesting example, but it would not work because the use may always =20 insert a rule(-list) before the immutable rule(s) that will make the imuuta= ble =20 rules ineffective. The problem is that the rule(-sets) are a user ordered l= ist =20 where the order matters. It is not enough to protect the individual rule(se= ts) =20 the order would also need protection. =20 =C2=A0 =20 IMHO it would be much easier and just as useful to define =C2=A0an extensio= n statement: =20 =C2=A0 =20 extension immutable { =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Indicates that a data node contains data th= at is =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 loaded by the system and cannot be cre= ated/deleted/changed through the =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Netconf, Restconf or other management = interfaces like SNMP, CLI. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The data MAY be marked as config true = to allow leafref, =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when or must constraints to be based o= n it. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The statement MUST only be a substatem= ent of the leaf, leaf-list, =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 container, list, anydata, anyxml state= ments. =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Zero or one static-data statement per = parent statement is allowed. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The argument is a boolean value indica= ting whether the data node =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is considered static-data or not. If s= tatic-data is not specified, =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the default is the same as the parent = data node's value. For top =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 level data nodes the default value is = false. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When the effective immutable value is = true, the =E2=80=98description=E2=80=99 statement of =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the parent statement SHOULD contain th= e text 'This data node (tree) =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cannot be changed in a running system.= ' "; =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 argument value; =20 =C2=A0 } _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod =20 ------=_Part_1224196_1506822806.1648071339238 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
<= div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: courier new, co= urier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">
I went through the doc, ha= ve not reviewed it extensively but +1 to this comment from Balazs. I don't = see the use-case for supporting this per instance either.

If we make this a schema property it can be documented in a= transparent manner

with a YANG extension statement. If it is handle= d as instance connected metadata

the client cannot know a-priori whe= ther a data node is or is not immutable. This information

is only ava= ilable in runtime. System integrators, OSS developers will have a problem.<= /font>


Regards,
Reshad.

=20
=20
On Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 03:23:32 PM EDT, Bal=C3= =A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


=20 =20

Hello,

=20

I did a review of the immuta= ble draft. My comments questions are below.

=20

Regards Balazs

=20

 

=20

General)

=20

I think this work is importa= nt and valuable, but it needs quite a lot improvements.

=20

 

=20

Why is immutable connected t= o instances. IMO it should be a schema property.

=20

If we connect it to instance= s it is hard/impossible to specify =E2=80=9Cit is prohibited to create a

=20

new container, list entry of= leaf-list value=E2=80=9D. That is clearly needed for the

=20

capability-check use-case. M= aybe allow it on both schema and instance ?

=20

 

=20

If we make this a schema pro= perty it can be documented in a transparent manner

=20

with a YANG extension statem= ent. If it is handled as instance connected metadata

=20

the client cannot know a-pri= ori whether a data node is or is not immutable. This information

=20

is only available in runtime= . System integrators, OSS developers will have a problem.

=20

 

=20

As immutability is connected= to instance (now) this raises the question how

=20

stable this property is? =20

- We don't say anything; the= server can keep it stable or make the data node

=20

immutable every odd second a= nd writable every even second

=20

- The property should be rel= atively stable in an unspecified manner

=20

- The property shall be set = when the data node is created and the property

=20

should not change till the d= ata node is deleted/replaced

=20

- Can the immutable property= be set on just some interfaces e.g. the

=20

leaf is readOnly on the CLI = but writable on Netconf ?

=20

If we make immutable a schem= a-property, the problem will not arise.

=20

 

=20

IMO it would be important to= list the use-cases we want to solve. I provide 3 below.

=20

 

=20

 

=20

Ch 1)

=20

I don't like paragraph 2. So= meone could say just declare the interface name

=20

config=3Dfalse which is a qu= ite usual solution.

=20

 

=20

I would rather change the fi= rst and second paragraphs to:

=20

 

=20

"YANG [RFC7950] is a data mo= deling language used to model both state

=20

and configuration data, base= d on the "config" statement. However there is data

=20

that should not be modifiabl= e by the client, but still needs to be declared

=20

as config true. Some example= s of this problem are presented below:

=20

 

=20

Interfaces are represented a= s list entries. The list schema node must be

=20

defined as config=3Dtrue as = many of its child leaves need to be configurable by

=20

the client. However the inte= rface name and type values are set by the system,

=20

based on the hardware actual= ly present in the device, and must not be modified

=20

by clients. The natural solu= tion would be to declare the name (which is the

=20

list's key) and the type as = config=3Dfalse. However according to the rules of

=20

YANG the key leaf for a conf= iguration list must also be config=3Dtrue. Thus the

=20

leaf /interfaces/interface/n= ame is config true even if it might not be

=20

writable in some systems.=20

 

=20

System capabilities might be= represented as system-set data nodes in the model.

=20

Configurable data nodes migh= t need constraints specified as "when", "must" or

=20

"path" statements to ensure = that configuration is set according to the system's

=20

capabilities. E.g.,

=20

- a timer can support the va= lues 1,5,8 seconds. This is defined in the

=20

leaf-list =E2=80=98supported= -timer-values=E2=80=99.

=20

- When the configurable =E2= =80=98interface-timer=E2=80=99 leaf is set it should be ensured that

=20

one of the supported values = is used. The natural solution would be to make the

=20

=E2=80=98interface-timer=E2= =80=99 a leaf-ref pointing at the =E2=80=98supported-timer-values=E2=80=99.=

=20

However, this is not possibl= e as =E2=80=98supported-timer-values=E2=80=99 must be readOnly thus

=20

config=3Dfalse while =E2=80= =98interface-timer=E2=80=99 must be writable thus config=3Dtrue.

=20

According to the rules of YA= NG it is not allowed to put a constraint between

=20

config true and false schema= nodes.

=20

 

=20

If configuration is created = by the system (e.g., copied from the <system>

=20

datastore to the <running= > datastore it might need to be protected. In some

=20

cases there is a need to ens= ure that system-originated configuration shall

=20

not be altered even after it= is copied over to the <running> datastore.=E2=80=9D

=20

 

=20

 

=20

Ch 2)

=20

"Create an immutable data no= de with a same value initially set by

=20

    &nbs= p; the system if it doesn't exist in the datastore, e.g., explicitly

=20

    &nbs= p; configure a system generated interface name in <running>;"

=20

IMO this is not needed becau= se

=20

- If the data already exists= in the <running> datastore it cannot be

=20

created according to Netconf= rules.

=20

- If it does not exist in th= e <running> datastore there is nothing that could

=20

be immutable as immutable is= linked to the instances.

=20

The above is independent of = what is defined in <system>=20

=20

 

=20

Until now we never

=20

had any constraints between = 2 datastores like:

=20

you can update datastore1 if= datastore2 contains something.

=20

I don't think we want to int= roduce that either.

=20

 

=20

"Comment: Should we allow th= e client delete an "immutable" system

=20

   instantiated no= de in <running> ?"

=20

Once a data node is instanti= ated there is no record where it came from.

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8342#section-5.3.4 states = that origin

=20

is only maintained in the &l= t;operations> datastore. Unless we want to introduce

=20

it into <running>. So = the even the question is wrong as we don't know which

=20

data is system instantiated.=

=20

 

=20

Servers MUST reject any atte= mpt to the "create", "delete" and

=20

   "update" access= operations on an immutable data node "

=20

  

=20

 Create cannot be handl= ed. see comment on chapter 2.

=20

=20

Ch2 last paragraph) Edit-con= fig is not allowed towards the startup datastore

=20

so it shouldn't be mentioned= here. Why wait with error reporting for candidate.

=20

Is there any chance that the= immutability might change?

=20

 

=20

A.2) Interesting example, bu= t it would not work because the use may always

=20

insert a rule(-list) before = the immutable rule(s) that will make the imuutable

=20

rules ineffective. The probl= em is that the rule(-sets) are a user ordered list

=20

where the order matters. It = is not enough to protect the individual rule(sets)

=20

the order would also need pr= otection.

=20

 

=20

IMHO it would be much easier= and just as useful to define  an extension statement:

=20

 

=20

extension immutable {

=20

    descripti= on

=20

    &nbs= p; "Indicates that a data node contains data that is

=20

    &nbs= p;  loaded by the system and cannot be created/deleted/changed through= the

=20

    &nbs= p;  Netconf, Restconf or other management interfaces like SNMP, CLI.=20

 

=20

    &nbs= p;  The data MAY be marked as config true to allow leafref,

=20

    &nbs= p;  when or must constraints to be based on it.

=20

 

=20

    &nbs= p;  The statement MUST only be a substatement of the leaf, leaf-list,<= /p>=20

    &nbs= p;  container, list, anydata, anyxml statements.

=20

    &nbs= p;  Zero or one static-data statement per parent statement is allowed.=

=20

 

=20

    &nbs= p;  The argument is a boolean value indicating whether the data node=20

    &nbs= p;  is considered static-data or not. If static-data is not specified,=

=20

    &nbs= p;  the default is the same as the parent data node's value. For top=20

    &nbs= p;  level data nodes the default value is false.

=20

 

=20

    &nbs= p;  When the effective immutable value is true, the =E2=80=98descripti= on=E2=80=99 statement of

=20

    &nbs= p;  the parent statement SHOULD contain the text 'This data node (tree= )

=20

    &nbs= p;  cannot be changed in a running system.' ";

=20

    argument = value;

=20

  }

=20
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing lis= t
= netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/netmod
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Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_VI1PR0701MB23518B3F1FB9EE3EE32C9FDAF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_-- From nobody Wed Mar 23 15:07:23 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fb8d1d211-e9934d83-7ace-4521-ab9f-a73f67a33b8f-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185FA3A07B2 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.905 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_yP9B8CSrVk for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D2013A07AE for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:07:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648073233; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=GPdIHQMYVvIQRRqWPFhSVq72P/1nHeHxho4h2LkSuUw=; b=QILUkkcqyCbwXjE8UE3tazReQGboCUxjlCgVlywoh6YUkkdqmm5sH3FONlZo0Mc5 SiQYQJ2hDOY4sTWlxCULKmpE3aA1LVVbPGvyrQ3lWMaIRzqA47aqq/oqa3xFkp0H3h9 NNDvzZ89Z8i9MR+V85tni9/0RFGg5o/Krtskyock= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fb8d1d211-e9934d83-7ace-4521-ab9f-a73f67a33b8f-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C9FF96C1-882A-484A-B251-EF79598580FE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:07:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.23-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:07:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C9FF96C1-882A-484A-B251-EF79598580FE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Andy, The draft allows individual data instance nodes (e.g., in a list) to be = flagged as immutable: The following terms are defined in this document: immutable: A metadata annotation indicating the immutability of a data node. An immutable data node is read-only to clients. Note that "immutable" is used to annotate instances of YANG data nodes rather than schema nodes. For instance, a "list" data node may exist in multiple instances in the data tree, "immutable" can annotate some of the instances as read-only, while others are not. If it were not for that, then an access-control refinement seems = appropriate, because then it would have to be user-specific, whereas = this draft enables user-independant immutability. As for *why* this draft enables individual data instance nodes to be = flagged as immutable (a question asked in other recent review comments), = please note that this work came out of the "with-system" work after a = number of folks (myself included) noted that the concept was independent = of a datastore. For instance, I defined a similar mechanism in = a past life to handle objects published from a host-system to = logical-systems (LNEs). =20 The most common example for such a need is with interfaces, e.g., the = host-system publishes "eth-3.1.2" to a logical-system, where it is = unable to delete it (whereas it is deletable in the host-system's = config). That said (playing devil's advocate), I wonder if, in this = example, the interfaces, when published to a logical-system, should be = published to the datastore (because they're effectively a = system-defined resource then, from the LNE's POV) and hence pickup their = immutability that way. Kent // contributor > On Mar 23, 2022, at 4:09 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the > access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism > such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing > mix of proprietary solutions. >=20 > We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely = deployed. > A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is > needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access = operations. >=20 >=20 > = https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html#= ncx-user-write = >=20 >=20 > Andy >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --Apple-Mail=_C9FF96C1-882A-484A-B251-EF79598580FE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Andy,

The draft = allows individual data instance nodes (e.g., in a list) to be flagged as = immutable:


   The following terms are defined in this =
document:

   immutable:  A metadata annotation indicating the immutability of a
      data node.  An immutable data node is read-only to clients.  Note
      that "immutable" is used to annotate instances of YANG data nodes
      rather than schema nodes.  For instance, a "list" data node may
      exist in multiple instances in the data tree, "immutable" can
      annotate some of the instances as read-only, while others are not.


If it were not for that, then an = access-control refinement seems appropriate, because then it would have = to be user-specific, whereas this draft enables user-independant = immutability.

As= for *why* this draft enables individual data instance nodes = to be flagged as immutable (a question asked in other recent = review comments), please note that this work came out of the = "with-system" work after a number of folks (myself included) = noted that the concept was independent of a <system> = datastore.  For instance, I defined a similar mechanism in a = past life to handle objects published from a host-system to = logical-systems (LNEs).  

The most = common example for such a need is with interfaces, e.g., the = host-system publishes "eth-3.1.2" to a logical-system, where it is = unable to delete it (whereas it is deletable in the host-system's = config).  That said (playing devil's advocate), I wonder if, in = this example, the interfaces, when published to a logical-system, should = be published to the <system> datastore (because = they're effectively a system-defined resource then, from the = LNE's POV) and hence pickup their immutability that = way.

Kent= // contributor


On Mar = 23, 2022, at 4:09 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> = wrote:

Hi,

IMO the problem should be viewed as a = refinement to the
access control policy of the = device.  A standard mechanism
such as a YANG = extension would be better than a growing
mix of = proprietary solutions.

We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is = widely deployed.
A simple boolean is not fine = enough granularity, so a bits type is
needed = instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access = operations.


https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-= guide.html#ncx-user-write


Andy

_______________________________________________
netmod = mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

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boundary="_000_VI1PR0701MB23513199E93D97C894E18E8AF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dbb6de3e-2f7c-4a54-0a55-08da0d1b94c1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Mar 2022 22:22:13.3397 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /JtGPjNT4qPtesS+TERKhIXsa6Zs/2HffLMS212RBDD1wKR+PhjVErgh51YqucK8f2/kauXZq33bElfHnXiWEXRdE8ZvlhWo9afvv6n68Bg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB6335 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:22:25 -0000 --_000_VI1PR0701MB23513199E93D97C894E18E8AF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Kent, Andy, I see more problems with an access control based immutable solution. - user-dependency as Kent mentioned - it is always possible to insert a new rule(set) at the beginning of the N= ACM list that overrides other rules. We would need to ensure that these rul= es stay the first - there is a need to protect the access control rules protecting immutable = data nodes; then rules to protect the rules that protect the rules that pro= tect ... - access control can be switched off - access control does not work for emergency sessions - access control rules that reference different part of the systems are MUC= H more difficult to understand than a yang-extension statement immutable. E= specially if you have an access control list with many (hundreds of) rules Regards Balazs From: netmod On Behalf Of Kent Watsen Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 23:07 To: Andy Bierman Cc: netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-fla= g-00 Hi Andy, The draft allows individual data instance nodes (e.g., in a list) to be fla= gged as immutable: The following terms are defined in this document: immutable: A metadata annotation indicating the immutability of a data node. An immutable data node is read-only to clients. Note that "immutable" is used to annotate instances of YANG data nodes rather than schema nodes. For instance, a "list" data node may exist in multiple instances in the data tree, "immutable" can annotate some of the instances as read-only, while others are not. If it were not for that, then an access-control refinement seems appropriat= e, because then it would have to be user-specific, whereas this draft enabl= es user-independant immutability. As for *why* this draft enables individual data instance nodes to be flagge= d as immutable (a question asked in other recent review comments), please n= ote that this work came out of the "with-system" work after a number of fol= ks (myself included) noted that the concept was independent of a d= atastore. For instance, I defined a similar mechanism in a past life to ha= ndle objects published from a host-system to logical-systems (LNEs). The most common example for such a need is with interfaces, e.g., the host-= system publishes "eth-3.1.2" to a logical-system, where it is unable to del= ete it (whereas it is deletable in the host-system's config). That said (p= laying devil's advocate), I wonder if, in this example, the interfaces, whe= n published to a logical-system, should be published to the datast= ore (because they're effectively a system-defined resource then, from the L= NE's POV) and hence pickup their immutability that way. Kent // contributor On Mar 23, 2022, at 4:09 PM, Andy Bierman > wrote: Hi, IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing mix of proprietary solutions. We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely deployed. A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access operat= ions. https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html#n= cx-user-write Andy _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --_000_VI1PR0701MB23513199E93D97C894E18E8AF0189VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Kent, Andy,

I see more problems with an access control based imm= utable solution.

- user-dependency as Kent mentioned

- it is always possible to insert a new rule(set) at= the beginning of the NACM list that overrides other rules. We would need t= o ensure that these rules stay the first

- there is a need to protect the access control rule= s protecting immutable data nodes; then rules to protect the rules that pro= tect the rules that protect …

- access control can be switched off

- access control does not work for emergency session= s

- access control rules that reference different part= of the systems are MUCH more difficult to understand than a yang-extension= statement immutable. Especially if you have an access control list with ma= ny (hundreds of) rules

Regards Balazs

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 23:07
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

 

Hi Andy,

 

The draft allows individual data instance nodes (e.g= ., in a list) to be flagged as immutable:

 

 

   The following terms are defined in this document:=

 
   immutable:  A metadata a=
nnotation indicating the immutability of a
      data node.&=
nbsp; An immutable data node is read-only to clients.  Note=

      that "=
immutable" is used to annotate instances of YANG data nodes=

      rather than=
 schema nodes.  For instance, a "list" data node may
      exist in mu=
ltiple instances in the data tree, "immutable" can
      annotate so=
me of the instances as read-only, while others are not.



 






 






If it were not for that, then an access-control refi=
nement seems appropriate, because then it would have to be user-specific, w=
hereas this draft enables user-independant immutability.






 






As for *why* this draft enables individual data instance nodes to be flagged as immutable (a q=
uestion asked in other recent review comments), please note that =
this work came out of the "with-system" work after
 a number of folks (myself included) noted that the concept was indepe=
ndent of a <system> datastore.  For instance, I defined a simila=
r mechanism in a past life to handle objects published from a host-sys=
tem to logical-systems (LNEs).  






 






The most common exa=
mple for such a need is with interfaces, e.g., the host-system publishes &q=
uot;eth-3.1.2" to a logical-system, where it is unable to delete it (w=
hereas it is deletable in the host-system's config).
  That said (playing devil's advocate), I wonder if, in this example, =
the interfaces, when published to a logical-system, should be published to&=
nbsp;the <system> datastore (because they're effectively a =
system-defined resource then, from the LNE's POV) and hence
 pickup their immutability that way.






 






Kent // contributor














On Mar 23, 2022, at 4:09 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:




 






Hi,




 






IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to =
the






access control policy of the device.  A standar=
d mechanism






such as a YANG extension would be better than a grow=
ing






mix of proprietary solutions.






 






We have such a YANG extension called "user-writ=
e" that is widely deployed.






A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so =
a bits type is






needed instead to allow control of create, update, a=
nd delete access operations.






 






 







 






 






Andy






 






_______________________________________________

netmod mailing list

netmod@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netmod








 
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boundary="_000_VI1PR0701MB2351D399AB78445A66E16DD1F0189VI1PR0701MB2351_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 232c5105-c518-4f53-a8d0-08da0d1d426f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Mar 2022 22:34:14.2266 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: uYBFHeJF9rDwTtZkKJ+U3JytmsgVXy4ASJw0Z7ix2IzuYGI31BfeNAtxWBl76byT8WtBkW5onQtt4kJf9JJITvFjm4R4w1HTXev5Qdkc8i4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0701MB2677 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:34:25 -0000 --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351D399AB78445A66E16DD1F0189VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jan, I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the same as the one defined i= n Restconf. Does or should your draft include a statement like: "The etag values maintained by the server are protocol/interface independen= t. If requested the same etag values will be visible on all interface inclu= ding Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc." Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your reason to exclude them fro= m your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps they would be protocol= /interface independent just as etags, so the task is to make them available= on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI). Regards Balazs --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351D399AB78445A66E16DD1F0189VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Jan,

I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the sa= me as the one defined in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a stat= ement like:

“The etag values maintained by the server are = protocol/interface independent. If requested the same etag values will be v= isible on all interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.”

 

Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your rea= son to exclude them from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps= they would be protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is= to make them available on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI).

Regards Balazs

--_000_VI1PR0701MB2351D399AB78445A66E16DD1F0189VI1PR0701MB2351_-- From nobody Wed Mar 23 16:05:15 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0823A0E04 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:05:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cU659bFJ7kmE for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 053903A0E00 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:05:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648076707; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=S5lKp6AqERGrEygL2KBoREZGiOljx+bU8Ylb8BDK2G0=; b=i4EIDNC3aiv+eGdqwFxdGjQrtjZJt2fhEeXVLtZwfaIMp6caCwFd1+r7cmBWmo/r bNqBzNpQTYCGxakdF3rGmueIxMx/mRnVC7D3DVqnskEE+oDpFfWtq2YOkuJADqqepaD LoKniQrDSSdoNqvGASGe8P1aUf4ycsJJaUwWtIro= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A38D2FB1-448A-43BA-BB28-A39864D3560A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 23:05:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.23-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 23:05:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A38D2FB1-448A-43BA-BB28-A39864D3560A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the same as the one = defined in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a statement like: > =E2=80=9CThe etag values maintained by the server are = protocol/interface independent. If requested the same etag values will = be visible on all interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D= While it makes sense that a server would use the same values across = protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do, if we could state it = in a NETCONF-specific draft. > Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your reason to exclude = them from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps they would = be protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is to make = them available on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI). I agree and have mentioned before. LastModified either needs to be = added, or justified why not added, to get my adoption support. > Regards Balazs Kent // contributor --Apple-Mail=_A38D2FB1-448A-43BA-BB28-A39864D3560A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the same = as the one defined in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a = statement like:
=E2=80= =9CThe etag values maintained by the server are protocol/interface = independent. If requested the same etag values will be visible on all = interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI = etc.=E2=80=9D

While it makes sense that a server would use the = same values across protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do, = if we could state it in a NETCONF-specific draft.


Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your reason to = exclude them from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps = they would be protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task = is to make them available on Netconf too (and maybe the = CLI).

I = agree and have mentioned before.  LastModified either needs to be = added, or justified why not added, to get my adoption = support.


Regards Balazs

Kent // contributor


= --Apple-Mail=_A38D2FB1-448A-43BA-BB28-A39864D3560A-- From nobody Wed Mar 23 16:14:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBDF3A0EE9 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:13:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHqYZnH50fSY for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x112d.google.com (mail-yw1-x112d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F2693A0EC2 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112d.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e68c95e0f9so34795627b3.0 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=svPcr1mv4kTeBdOa+5uMhvAa/LDGRWseOhx/VRX+abs=; b=3fNyJvHDwZGAcDspre4/xSScc2zx/sdnXz0igmJIl78r/sqcF6SV8PmCa8AdBXYifu tdNZwCZgBBytoUfO6+0GUtX/OtDFyfTm8PcW5n7qiPnnJSkGGtREszmkTi8sVi35mDV8 ION3QZSx/+nrHspWvCnDJxSCY8MWoZuJ/qejxnrHJRp8i8815JYPQRc0DGwWhPJLBrcj VpaqaZDecv706oNE+ZO0JUgYLGYPxTviJY/0XqKELfjfB8+JC6ujyKzoWbutFAISfZLy g33d/tl5XrrjWKEfB1RMp7w2r7S8QduAV8rW2IpVOe7LyQUCko53u6v4Oaa0pEZ1oBUI pUHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=svPcr1mv4kTeBdOa+5uMhvAa/LDGRWseOhx/VRX+abs=; b=wucANmtgWTF6J8Be4Z99xABzGROaWXqTSeB4Xua22YzYQjxNhWy9pPczHLk4IiSAnq oJ6IrzAC/yzb+an1kcB0O+7IiwIOzDLXuKGdMGRbEKfuPMODPd6bpeFVzW6B0we7AORo 0yZApROjIP6o61Fsggtu05NHJ6F0H8HkXJ6cFxYo4voIuHqWPl+xAUJHP/r9TwwArDzy 6AG1LcJzJrsUtAwhUwbE5SNktRPC13EjYPBz+xEGhHMr5+YlbX4EE5VpTf0qoO4tdkWO FsBh7uGF+1Aan9luJhc89Wb/3shUEKOkiLlIvefLDcsPWe7/k6PA6kXCbzxzaUQk3Oqr q3tA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330jkBILez6DG4Kta1s0hwIMd6iL7dsrPLl0OuQ1fFQM1Tt+Lur 4QwGPzJZTQz51sv37cZIsT6BNsAHp3ewTwQlOKStksJ8/4Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx6E8S/xieh4Upa9xQWPVWP/DSlO+6Zjgbvx2hS1wiwLQguAk+N/bt3yDVZf6r+pVysoDZBP7/4KP544lXorW0= X-Received: by 2002:a81:78f:0:b0:2e5:bf12:5edc with SMTP id 137-20020a81078f000000b002e5bf125edcmr2347335ywh.433.1648077222718; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:13:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: NetMod WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c4a7805daeae12b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 23:13:50 -0000 --0000000000006c4a7805daeae12b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:06 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 22:32 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > I also propose an extension. (see my mail Review of > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00) > > In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but do see the need for > applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to protect a full > subtree. > > > > Why do you need the exceptions? Could you provide some use-case examples = ? > > > > I think create/delete-only and modify-only access modes are used the most= , > after no-access. > > BALAZS: How is a modify-only data-node different from a mandatory > data-node? It must be there but can be changed. It get=E2=80=99s an initi= al value > somehow. > Mandatory=3Dtrue requires the system to provide a value. Modify-only allows the system to decide when an instance is created. > BALAZS: Any examples when would a create/delete only data node be used? > Sometimes developers do not want to write complex instrumentation that supports modification of resources. Instead a user has to delete the old entry and create a new one with (potentially) different parameters. > > Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or may require more work to > > undo the extension used in an ancestor node. This impacts the extension > usage within a grouping. > > > > BALAZS2: I did not include it in my mail, but we actually have one more > rule: > > =E2=80=9CTop level statements in augment or groupings do NOT inherit > > the static-data value from containing nodes, they default to > > static-data false.=E2=80=9D > > > This seems complicated to users and developers to track how the final schema tree was derived. The 'static-data' extension seems fine to me. We have to support 'user-write' anyways, so it is better if it is not too close to this extension. Things that seem the same, but are NOT the same cause the most support tickets. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > Andy > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > Hi, > > > > IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the > > access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism > > such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing > > mix of proprietary solutions. > > > > We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely deployed= . > > A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is > > needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access > operations. > > > > > > > https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html= #ncx-user-write > > > > > > > Andy > > > > --0000000000006c4a7805daeae12b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:06 PM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 22:32
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = <balazs= .lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

I also propose an extension. (see my mail Review of = draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00)

In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but do se= e the need for applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to protec= t a full subtree.

=C2=A0

Why do you need the exceptions? Could you provide so= me use-case examples ?

=C2=A0

I think create/delete-only and modify-only access mo= des are used the most, after no-access.

BALAZS: How is a modify-only data-node different fro= m a mandatory data-node? It must be there but can be changed. It get=E2=80= =99s an initial value somehow.


Mandatory=3Dtrue requires the system to provide a val= ue.
Modify-only allows the system to decide when an instance is c= reated.

=C2=A0

BALAZS: Any examples when would a create/delete only= data node be used?


=
Sometimes developers do not want to write complex instrumentatio= n that supports
modification of resources.=C2=A0 Instead a user h= as to delete the old entry and create a new
one with (potentially= ) different parameters.


=C2=A0

Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or may r= equire more work to

undo the extension used in an ancestor node. This im= pacts the extension usage within a grouping.

=C2=A0

BALAZS2: I did not include it in my mail, but we act= ually have one more rule:

=E2=80=9CTop level statements in augment or grouping= s do NOT inherit

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the static-data= value from containing nodes, they default to

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 static-data fal= se.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0


This seems complicated to users and developers = to track how the final schema tree was derived.

Th= e 'static-data' extension seems fine to me.
We have to su= pport 'user-write' anyways, so it is better if it is not too close = to this extension.
Things that seem the same, but are NOT the sam= e cause the most support tickets.

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Andy

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-= flag-00

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to = the

access control policy of the device.=C2=A0 A standar= d mechanism

such as a YANG extension would be better than a grow= ing

mix of proprietary solutions.

=C2=A0

We have such a YANG extension called "user-writ= e" that is widely deployed.

A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so = a bits type is

needed instead to allow control of create, update, a= nd delete access operations.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

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(draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 00:04:49 -0000 --000000000000b6692505daeb95a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 4:33 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > *From:* Kent Watsen > *Sent:* Thursday, 24 March, 2022 00:05 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces > (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) > > > > > > > > I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the same as the one defined > in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a statement like: > > =E2=80=9CThe etag values maintained by the server are protocol/interface > independent. If requested the same etag values will be visible on all > interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D > > > > While it makes sense that a server would use the same values across > protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do, if we could state it = in > a NETCONF-specific draft. > > BALAZS2: I see it as a VERY important advantage of the whole > YANG/Netconf/Restconf ecosystem that the separate protocols (practically > including the CLI and possibly a gui too) are just views of the same > central configuration datastore. So IMO this is important and should be > stated. > > > I strongly support this approach. It applies to the entire server API, including notifications. E.g., a client should be able to reuse code for processing NETCONF notifications, even if the protocol is RESTCONF or the new YANG-Push over UDP. The RESTCONF mechanisms adapted from HTTP should be extended to be protocol-independent. Our goal should be code to the YANG models, NOT the protocols. > > Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your reason to exclude them > from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps they would be > protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is to make them > available on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI). > > > > I agree and have mentioned before. LastModified either needs to be added= , > or justified why not added, to get my adoption support. > > > I agree. They both need to be supported in RESTCONF. A timestamp can be applied to multiple servers, unlike the ETag values. Typical usage is for the client to track its own polling timestamps, and use If-Modified-Since to retrieve data only if needed. The same timestamp can also be used with If-Unmodified-Since for edits. > > Regards Balazs > > > > Kent // contributor > > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000b6692505daeb95a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 4:33 PM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

From: Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>
Sent: Thursday, 24 March, 2022 00:05
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: netmod@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draf= t-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the sa= me as the one defined in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a stat= ement like:

=E2=80=9CThe etag values maintained by the server ar= e protocol/interface independent. If requested the same etag values will be= visible on all interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D=

=C2=A0

While it makes sense that a server would use the sam= e values across protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do,= if we could state it in a NETCONF-specific draft.

BALAZS2: I see it as a VERY important advantage of t= he whole YANG/Netconf/Restconf ecosystem that the separate protocols (pract= ically including the CLI and possibly a gui too) are just views of the same= central configuration datastore. So IMO this is important and should be stated.

=C2=A0



I strongly support this approach.
It applies to the entire server API, including notifications.
E.g., a client should be able to reuse code for processing NETCONF notif= ications,
even if the protocol is RESTCONF or the new YANG-Push o= ver UDP.

The RESTCONF mechanisms adapted from HTTP= should be extended to be
protocol-independent.=C2=A0 Our goal sh= ould be code to the YANG models, NOT the protocols.


=C2=A0

Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your rea= son to exclude them from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps= they would be protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is= to make them available on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI).

=C2=A0

I agree and have mentioned before.=C2=A0 LastModifie= d either needs to be added, or justified why not added, to get my adoption = support.

=C2=A0


I agree. They both need to be supported in RESTCONF.<= /div>
A timestamp can be applied to multiple servers, unlike the ETag v= alues.
Typical usage is for the client to track its own polling t= imestamps,
and use If-Modified-Since to retrieve data only if nee= ded.
The same timestamp can also be used with If-Unmodified-Since= for edits.




Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0


Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d992b73f-a07d-45b0-8c83-08da0d80e198 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM0P190MB0641.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2022 10:27:21.9298 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: LDhBKcjZoJm97FMtKy4wKVunw20KTpI7FR4umAsR5WFUVKAJs2Fp6NcCsusSLe72nE2lMLZkRWImiClnQhjJTC0V86u8/wMJxHcKQIThxGA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1P190MB0538 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0000 Hi, the document says that it updates RFC 8407. I assume that the intended semantic here is that this document augments what is being said in RFC 8407 but it does not change anything said in RFC 8407. I like the recommendation given in other places of being explicit about what "updates" means. OLD This document updates RFC 8407. NEW This document updates RFC 8407 by providing additional guidelines for IANA maintained modules. It does not change anything written in RFC 8407. It seems that later on you are actually changing what RFC 8407 says although I am not sure I understand the reasoning. RFC 8407 recommends to use enums if there is a single naming authority allocating values and thus ensuring uniqness of values. I am not sure in which sense the DOTS decision to use enums is not inline with what RFC 8407 says. DOTS may have decided to go with enums for space reasons and then this decision implies that values have to be centrally allocated. Note that there are IANA registries that allow distributed allocation of values and for thoses cases the RFC 8407 recommendation to use identities still applies I think. /js PS: I liked the word 'inexorability' but I am not sure that making me smile was the intention of the authors. ;-) On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:47:16AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all, > > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of IANA-maintained modules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope will ensure some consistency about how we are interacting with IANA registries. The goal is avoid transforming YANG modules (if not maintained by IANA) as another source of information, which are likely to be out of sync. > > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D. > > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. > > Cheers, > Med > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : internet-drafts@ietf.org > Envoyé : jeudi 24 mars 2022 10:41 > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET > Objet : New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mohamed Boucadair and posted to the IETF repository. > > Name: draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries > Revision: 00 > Title: Recommendations for Creating IANA-Maintained YANG Modules > Document date: 2022-03-24 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 5 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries/ > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries > > > Abstract: > This document provides a set of guidelines for YANG module authors > related to the design of IANA-maintained modules. These guidelines > are meant to leverage existing IANA registries and use YANG as just > another format to present the content of these registries. > > This document updates RFC 8407. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Mar 24 03:44:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B0F3A1912 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 03:44:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: 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X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ef9f2060-a562-47e6-7991-08da0d84e674 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM0P190MB0641.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2022 10:56:08.0520 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: kw16owNMEX8/DWK03jOvYl2U3xj45BKv7OADmK0dc0NiWQU4Tgm2gdg2dhxVeKij+LmWaMq1m1SPCEcT9vU+scVhD7HihThT/dfqdL3ZE+o= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PA4P190MB1134 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:56:27 -0000 On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:44:42AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > It seems that later on you are actually changing what RFC 8407 says > > although I am not sure I understand the reasoning. RFC 8407 recommends > > to use enums if there is a single naming authority allocating values and > > thus ensuring uniqness of values. I am not sure in which sense the DOTS > > decision to use enums is not inline with what RFC 8407 says. DOTS may > > have decided to go with enums for space reasons and then this decision > > implies that values have to be centrally allocated. Note that there are > > IANA registries that allow distributed allocation of values and for > > thoses cases the RFC 8407 recommendation to use identities still applies > > I think. > > [Med] I was referring to this part: > > If extensibility of enumerated values is required, then the > "identityref" data type SHOULD be used instead of an enumeration or > other built-in type. > But why do you think this statement of RFC 8407 needs any changes or different interpretations? An enum implies that allocations can only be done by updating the module defining the enum. If a WG goes for an enum because of efficiency concerns, then the WG accepts that new allocations require an update of the module defining the enum. If you want multiple parties to allocate values, then the price is the overhead of using identities. The good old middle ground are numbers spaces where some of the space is allocated for distributed allocations (and sometimes these allocations than include things like enterprise IDs to reduce the likelyhood for collisions) but then the YANG equivalent for this is not just a plain enum. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Mar 24 04:23:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABFB43A0D4E for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, 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(7.192.104.229) by canpemm500005.china.huawei.com (7.192.104.229) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.21; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:23:39 +0800 Received: from canpemm500005.china.huawei.com ([7.192.104.229]) by canpemm500005.china.huawei.com ([7.192.104.229]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.021; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:23:39 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: =?utf-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt Thread-Index: Adg/b9X8pG442HcOTq+XRPXbuu7QIA== Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:23:39 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version 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X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 26e7ef01-bcd3-45e9-d933-08da0d8cb57b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM0P190MB0641.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2022 11:52:01.8971 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: GIDk2ekytNfguT/azkTu8a6aMKsNJMAVNCp9jzb9EOb3WVPyPao8OdVTRkpyXZM8lfTVE8dqMqLi7M1cXIXQJHln4zl53kkg7b4GVWdbvz4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1P190MB0463 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:52:12 -0000 On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 11:23:39AM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > >-----邮件原件----- > >发件人: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Jürgen Sch?nw?lder > >发送时间: 2022年3月24日 18:56 > >收件人: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > >抄送: netmod@ietf.org > >主题: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > >On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:44:42AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > >> > It seems that later on you are actually changing what RFC 8407 says > >> > although I am not sure I understand the reasoning. RFC 8407 > >> > recommends to use enums if there is a single naming authority > >> > allocating values and thus ensuring uniqness of values. I am not > >> > sure in which sense the DOTS decision to use enums is not inline > >> > with what RFC 8407 says. DOTS may have decided to go with enums for > >> > space reasons and then this decision implies that values have to be > >> > centrally allocated. Note that there are IANA registries that allow > >> > distributed allocation of values and for thoses cases the RFC 8407 > >> > recommendation to use identities still applies I think. > >> > >> [Med] I was referring to this part: > >> > >> If extensibility of enumerated values is required, then the > >> "identityref" data type SHOULD be used instead of an enumeration or > >> other built-in type. > >> > > >But why do you think this statement of RFC 8407 needs any changes or different interpretations? > > [Qin Wu] If my understanding is correct, Authors of document containing YANG data model face dilemma choices now, i.e.,whether > 1.change enum into identities which avoid updating the module defining the enum in the future > 2. Or stick to use enum and separate all enum types into IANA-Maintained YANG Modules, which also avoid updating the module, in addition, another benefit is to make sure the same registry maintenance for the module that get updated. > For the second choice, here is one related discussion raised by Lada > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/AILS-FptdNxMWFgSHiSjbwGc6tM/ > both seems to work. > I am writing about IANA maintained modules, not about why one should use IANA maintained modules. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Mar 24 07:22:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081CE3A0D39 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 07:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.806 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by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JXpzVW033KB for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 624223A0FD7 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2db2add4516so54428737b3.1 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:13:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nud3jHnJ0vbOuXUqWWJx6mKKk9nj7u+X+MUNaTak2ao=; b=fiPL98lcYkP95qGlsvRN+BQcYgMBAVQuoCalu2+q11Rjmm51rOTSg8oIu2zREOMumh rg8mTJ7ER9xqArNyc1Ea0iAUlrhM5LEASckZ6g+dWKhaQKyR3i6mQ4uVK89PaimvkojY 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ABdhPJwNf8zbHTXNA4DIKqTikq0IGXHGuqHJPWwXsBi1JxAzV6thSAgDS4n85Z6sCrO5b7gw06ibl0d430fNRflwwAE= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e80e:0:b0:2e5:ba68:80bc with SMTP id r14-20020a0de80e000000b002e5ba6880bcmr5343092ywe.350.1648134803972; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:13:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4fb3a9ab84744c42bc54084903f94ba5@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4fb3a9ab84744c42bc54084903f94ba5@huawei.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:13:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: "maqiufang (A)" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , Kent Watsen , NETMOD Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000088784005daf84941" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:13:30 -0000 --00000000000088784005daf84941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:22 AM maqiufang (A) wrote= : > Hi, Andy, Balazs, > > > > I can see your points in some of the use cases. > > But as Kent mentioned, the motivation of this work is that we have some > system-defined instance which are read-only to clients. > > And there may be some cases where a list/leaf-list data node may exist in > multiple instances with different control rules. > > > > To be specific, An instance-level annotation could be useful in following > use cases: > > a) The system generates some QoS templates when QoS functionality > is enabled, and some of the generated templates are read-only, while othe= rs > are free to be updated by the clients. > > b) The system predefines some list/leaf-list instances which are > read-only for clients(the clients cannot update or delete them, like > predefined NACM rules), but the clients is free to add/update/delete thei= r > own defined instances. > > > > While YANG-extension can be useful for a schema-level immutability. > > I am thinking that, maybe we need both to complete the solution? > IMO the instance-level is not interesting and should not be standardized. The only common usage seems to be a simple boolean flag. It looks like access control to me because it is access control. If an operator created NACM rules allowing client access to a static node, then the NACM config would be ignored and the operator would be confused. This problem exists no matter what external (AND PURELY OPTIONAL) statement is used. > > Best Regards, > > Qiufang > Andy > > > *From:* netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andy > Bierman > *Sent:* Thursday, March 24, 2022 7:14 AM > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:06 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 22:32 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > I also propose an extension. (see my mail Review of > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00) > > In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but do see the need for > applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to protect a full > subtree. > > > > Why do you need the exceptions? Could you provide some use-case examples = ? > > > > I think create/delete-only and modify-only access modes are used the most= , > after no-access. > > BALAZS: How is a modify-only data-node different from a mandatory > data-node? It must be there but can be changed. It get=E2=80=99s an initi= al value > somehow. > > > > Mandatory=3Dtrue requires the system to provide a value. > > Modify-only allows the system to decide when an instance is created. > > > > > > BALAZS: Any examples when would a create/delete only data node be used? > > > > Sometimes developers do not want to write complex instrumentation that > supports > > modification of resources. Instead a user has to delete the old entry an= d > create a new > > one with (potentially) different parameters. > > > > > > > > Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or may require more work to > > undo the extension used in an ancestor node. This impacts the extension > usage within a grouping. > > > > BALAZS2: I did not include it in my mail, but we actually have one more > rule: > > =E2=80=9CTop level statements in augment or groupings do NOT inherit > > the static-data value from containing nodes, they default to > > static-data false.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > This seems complicated to users and developers to track how the final > schema tree was derived. > > > > The 'static-data' extension seems fine to me. > > We have to support 'user-write' anyways, so it is better if it is not too > close to this extension. > > Things that seem the same, but are NOT the same cause the most support > tickets. > > > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > Hi, > > > > IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the > > access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism > > such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing > > mix of proprietary solutions. > > > > We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely deployed= . > > A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is > > needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access > operations. > > > > > > > https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html= #ncx-user-write > > > > > > > Andy > > > > --00000000000088784005daf84941 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:22 AM maqiu= fang (A) <maqiufang1@huawei.com= > wrote:

Hi, Andy, Balazs,=

=C2=A0=

I can see your points in so= me of the use cases.

But as Kent mentioned, the = motivation of this work is that we have some system-defined instance which = are read-only to clients.

And there may be some cases= where a list/leaf-list data node may exist in multiple instances with diff= erent control rules.

=C2=A0=

To be specific, An instance= -level annotation could be useful in following use cases:

a)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The system generates s= ome QoS templates when QoS functionality is enabled, and some of the genera= ted templates are read-only, while others are free to be updated by the clients.

b)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The system predefines = some list/leaf-list instances which are read-only for clients(the clients c= annot update or delete them, like predefined NACM rules), but the clients is free to add/update/delete their own define= d instances.

=C2=A0=

While YANG-extension can be= useful for a schema-level immutability.

I am thinking that, maybe w= e need both to complete the solution?


IMO the instance-level is not interesting and should not = be standardized.
The only common usage seems to be a simple boole= an flag.
It looks like access control to me because it is access = control.
If an operator created NACM rules allowing client access= to a static node,
then the NACM config would be ignored and the = operator would be confused.
This problem exists no matter what ex= ternal (AND PURELY OPTIONAL) statement is used.

=C2=A0=

Best Regards,=

Qiufang


Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 7:14 AM
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:06 PM= Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 22:32
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM= Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

I also propose an extension. (s= ee my mail Review of draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00)

In Ericsson we saw no need for = exceptions, but do see the need for applying it to descendant nodes. Typica= lly we need to protect a full subtree.

=C2=A0

Why do you need the exceptions?= Could you provide some use-case examples ?

=C2=A0

I think create/delete-only and = modify-only access modes are used the most, after no-access.<= /span>

BALAZS: How is a modify-only da= ta-node different from a mandatory data-node? It must be there but can be c= hanged. It get=E2=80=99s an initial value somehow.

=C2=A0

Mandatory=3Dtrue requires the s= ystem to provide a value.

Modify-only allows the system t= o decide when an instance is created.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

BALAZS: Any examples when would= a create/delete only data node be used?

=C2=A0

Sometimes developers do not wan= t to write complex instrumentation that supports

modification of resources.=C2= =A0 Instead a user has to delete the old entry and create a new

one with (potentially) differen= t parameters.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Applying to descendant nodes ma= y be better, or may require more work to

undo the extension used in an a= ncestor node. This impacts the extension usage within a grouping.=

=C2=A0

BALAZS2: I did not include it i= n my mail, but we actually have one more rule:

=E2=80=9CTop level statements i= n augment or groupings do NOT inherit

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 the static-data value from containing nodes, they default to<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 static-data false.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This seems complicated to users= and developers to track how the final schema tree was derived.

=C2=A0

The 'static-data' exten= sion seems fine to me.

We have to support 'user-wr= ite' anyways, so it is better if it is not too close to this extension.=

Things that seem the same, but = are NOT the same cause the most support tickets.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-= flag-00

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

IMO the problem should be viewe= d as a refinement to the

access control policy of the de= vice.=C2=A0 A standard mechanism

such as a YANG extension would = be better than a growing

mix of proprietary solutions.

=C2=A0

We have such a YANG extension c= alled "user-write" that is widely deployed.<= /p>

A simple boolean is not fine en= ough granularity, so a bits type is

needed instead to allow control= of create, update, and delete access operations.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OSzF+Nkit1g26ZtrNBJgqlnUJQlEJtl2+l6SoyNcUIdeffFoXJhi2SAGT0z7oeCTCNx7M/3LXix1kI8VZOJD8A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR0702MB3797 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-11 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:17:57 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lde= r =0A= Sent: 22 March 2022 07:11=0A= =0A= So we have the following options:=0A= =0A= a) Leave revision-date to be defined in ietf-yang-revisions.=0A= =0A= b) Define revision-date in ietf-yang-types.=0A= =0A= c) Define a date-no-zone type (derived from the date type) which does=0A= not have the optional time zone offset.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Yes, I like c) for its simplicity and its adequacy=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= I am leaning towards option c), having a generic type for a date=0A= without a time zone is the most general type we can provide. If=0A= additional specific revision date semantics are necessary, they can be=0A= provided in ietf-yang-revisions. (Looking at the definition of the=0A= type revision-identifier in RFC 8525, this is really date-no-zone.)=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 08:42:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:=0A= > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:01 AM J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder <=0A= > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:=0A= >=0A= > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 05:21:01PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:=0A= > > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:34 PM Kent Watsen =0A= > > wrote:=0A= > > >=0A= > > > > All,=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > 1) If you provided WGLC comments on this draft, please review the -= 12=0A= > > diff=0A= > > > > <=0A= > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-rfc6991-bis-12.tx= t> to=0A= > > > > ensure that the updates made are good.=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > > 2) Juergen notes below that he also removed the "revision-identifie= r"=0A= > > > > typedef, as it is better=0A= > > > > defined in the YANG versioning module. Any objections?=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > >=0A= > > > Sorry for the late comment.=0A= > > > I think Juergen listed one option as "rename to revision-date and lea= ve=0A= > > it=0A= > > > in this module".=0A= > > > I support this option.=0A= > > >=0A= > > > There is no chance that the revision date format will be changing any= =0A= > > time=0A= > > > soon.=0A= > > > This is useful for general applications because revision date is wide= ly=0A= > > > used.=0A= > > >=0A= > >=0A= > > The ietf-yang-library module (RFC 8525) currently uses its own=0A= > > definition of revision-identifier. While this module could adopt a=0A= > > common definition, the value of such a change is minor.=0A= > >=0A= > > The question where we place the definition of revision-date is likely= =0A= > > a matter of which role we expect the versioning work to play in the=0A= > > future. I am relatively neutral on the placement.=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > Not that important I guess.=0A= > One would think the "date" typedef already in the draft would be useful,= =0A= > but it isn't, and therefore not used.=0A= > There is no typedef for the pattern YYYY-MM-DD.=0A= >=0A= > /js=0A= > >=0A= >=0A= > Andy=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > >=0A= > > --=0A= > > J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany= =0A= > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= > >=0A= =0A= --=0A= J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=0A= Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany=0A= Fax: +49 421 200 3103 =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Thu Mar 24 10:48:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED25D3A11BA for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:48:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4VNd2aanJV-L for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D2FA3A07A4 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e5e31c34bfso58952157b3.10 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=psP03OxLMpUulhFCMopl5ruhdVNrUhumCIl02XXu3YQ=; b=5nSWhQvbZ9HqsGXY39zM1S8nwDhaHXrJD7bZuG3sUgfCkmDwnNBIHfKoXijQcwzE0x F9WWk0Tj/i5ptM0kINrCpRErozpWSOzX1/OXhYx4iaPVpSCXAeGTUT12P5L1IrSIAQEI tdqkHwBK3m4DsIDHPPH5aSt0OCFz4gLLDvw2Dooxt+cKbwzLLMoRRFTLVfH5gytgYCJO X709oWg2RvDsCHRQRYiLKqYR7iHXwxQfpIRLZIdCxLo8p2UmnD7yZY95qAz4CvkKsD6S aWLWOMpUWf/pkJc9rVjB5YC1ismwAJ6DBz2GBBiJLncaMve6be90P2uyJuNF55RDo+zP MAFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=psP03OxLMpUulhFCMopl5ruhdVNrUhumCIl02XXu3YQ=; b=37TrdxmmInScxfgp0fwfBUe7myXObMn2GgGd3A1JCKVyOV4ORDwsnDPOLqYPuqaj6R 5E7w4DrHMBXkEdtKqNBkMKsJXMU93HlCergBaTbTsl2NRrnFyPwNsjcs3iN+1eH3pL0F 3KZvy8yQb2aCT1dr9pjxbzohlh6U0X9+O/RfK/vHHkiMe83eNTqzTH3m0U5z/2RVIWMM EAeZQWAb98AYMEf8e85VzFuff4fHCotk3jdMctVqGWtF/1hXlPVHCEyZfri3oYmXyDyS Amx/BTl28tvB2Ctgp8RdmY591QFDuezkUspvSk3Z4oG+rzHQemNAIWf1HA3O+p4Vd2y3 yYjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tAJ+KAYHnOioGH4jCkonFId/RDJLBSBhfURHeflyMntBA+sPi 60L2yB+KiSP4N53CZq8KzTrGaTwA5XubCarOH3NEkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycWZ6bLdbsOScQ4Tvzw7aVvGpfgM0JLi/UirQvu0x9yx9TcN6JtoPbfTcGOsZ56VXCHVm6f0yGoEYy3UyWu/U= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5dd6:0:b0:2d6:3041:12e0 with SMTP id r205-20020a815dd6000000b002d6304112e0mr6150998ywb.331.1648144117129; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:48:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4fb3a9ab84744c42bc54084903f94ba5@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:48:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: "maqiufang (A)" , Kent Watsen , NETMOD Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3fb5105dafa7434" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:48:44 -0000 --000000000000a3fb5105dafa7434 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:14 AM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > As mentioned earlier immutable is not enough for predefined NACM rules > > because the client may always > > insert a rule(-list) before the immutable rule(s) that will make the > immutable > > rules ineffective. The problem is that the rule(-sets) are a user ordered > list > > where the order matters. It is not enough to protect the individual > rule(sets) > > the order would also need protection. > The NMDA solution would be to simply list the effective rule-lists in . The server rule-list will always be first in and not even exist in . I think a standard solution has a higher bar than our proprietary extensions. The interactions with NACM need to be properly handled. IMO a proper solution would be an update to NACM itself. The reason nacm:default-deny-write and nacm:default-deny-all work, even though they are optional extensions, is because they are mandatory extensions if NACM is supported. A nacm:static-data extension would be similar to the other 2 extensions. They are short-hand automatic NACM rules. NACM itself explains how they are handled so there is no conflict with user-provided rule-lists. > Balazs > Andy > > > *From:* maqiufang (A) > *Sent:* Thursday, 24 March, 2022 15:23 > *To:* Andy Bierman > *Cc:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel ; Kent Watsen < > kent+ietf@watsen.net>; NETMOD Group > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > Hi, Andy, Balazs, > > > > I can see your points in some of the use cases. > > But as Kent mentioned, the motivation of this work is that we have some > system-defined instance which are read-only to clients. > > And there may be some cases where a list/leaf-list data node may exist in > multiple instances with different control rules. > > > > To be specific, An instance-level annotation could be useful in following > use cases: > > a) The system generates some QoS templates when QoS functionality is > enabled, and some of the generated templates are read-only, while others > are free to be updated by the clients. > > b) The system predefines some list/leaf-list instances which are > read-only for clients(the clients cannot update or delete them, like > predefined NACM rules), but the clients is free to add/update/delete thei= r > own defined instances. > > > > While YANG-extension can be useful for a schema-level immutability. > > I am thinking that, maybe we need both to complete the solution? > > > > Best Regards, > > Qiufang > > > > *From:* netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Thursday, March 24, 2022 7:14 AM > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:06 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 22:32 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > *Cc:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello Andy, > > I also propose an extension. (see my mail Review of > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00) > > In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but do see the need for > applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to protect a full > subtree. > > > > Why do you need the exceptions? Could you provide some use-case examples = ? > > > > I think create/delete-only and modify-only access modes are used the most= , > after no-access. > > BALAZS: How is a modify-only data-node different from a mandatory > data-node? It must be there but can be changed. It get=E2=80=99s an initi= al value > somehow. > > > > Mandatory=3Dtrue requires the system to provide a value. > > Modify-only allows the system to decide when an instance is created. > > > > > > BALAZS: Any examples when would a create/delete only data node be used? > > > > Sometimes developers do not want to write complex instrumentation that > supports > > modification of resources. Instead a user has to delete the old entry an= d > create a new > > one with (potentially) different parameters. > > > > > > > > Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or may require more work to > > undo the extension used in an ancestor node. This impacts the extension > usage within a grouping. > > > > BALAZS2: I did not include it in my mail, but we actually have one more > rule: > > =E2=80=9CTop level statements in augment or groupings do NOT inherit > > the static-data value from containing nodes, they default to > > static-data false.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > This seems complicated to users and developers to track how the final > schema tree was derived. > > > > The 'static-data' extension seems fine to me. > > We have to support 'user-write' anyways, so it is better if it is not too > close to this extension. > > Things that seem the same, but are NOT the same cause the most support > tickets. > > > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10 > *To:* NetMod WG > *Subject:* [netmod] Alternative approach to > draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00 > > > > Hi, > > > > IMO the problem should be viewed as a refinement to the > > access control policy of the device. A standard mechanism > > such as a YANG extension would be better than a growing > > mix of proprietary solutions. > > > > We have such a YANG extension called "user-write" that is widely deployed= . > > A simple boolean is not fine enough granularity, so a bits type is > > needed instead to allow control of create, update, and delete access > operations. > > > > > > > https://www.yumaworks.com/pub/latest/yangauto/yumapro-yangauto-guide.html= #ncx-user-write > > > > > > > Andy > > > > --000000000000a3fb5105dafa7434 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:14 AM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

As mentioned earlier immutable is not enough for predefined NACM rules

because the client may always

insert a rule(-list) before the immutable rule(s) that will make = the immutable

rules ineffective. The problem is that the rule(-sets) are a user= ordered list

where the order matters. It is not enough to protect the individu= al rule(sets)

the order would also need protection.



The NMDA solution would be to si= mply list the effective rule-lists in <operational>.
The se= rver rule-list will always be first in=C2=A0<operational> and not eve= n exist in=C2=A0<intended>.

I think a standa= rd solution has a higher bar than our proprietary extensions.
The= interactions with NACM need to be properly handled.

IMO a proper solution would be an update to NACM itself.
The r= eason nacm:default-deny-write and nacm:default-deny-all work,
eve= n though they are optional extensions, is because they are mandatory extens= ions
if NACM is supported.

A nacm:static= -data extension would be similar to the other 2 extensions.
They = are short-hand automatic NACM rules.
NACM itself explains how the= y are handled so there is no conflict with user-provided rule-lists.
<= div>

=C2=A0

Balazs


And= y
=C2=A0
<= div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">

=C2=A0

From: maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, 24 March, 2022 15:23
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Kent Watsen &= lt;kent+ietf@wa= tsen.net>; NETMOD Group <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

=C2=A0

Hi, Andy, Balazs,

=C2=A0

I can see your points in some of the use c= ases.

But as Kent mentioned, the motivation of t= his work is that we have some system-defined instance which are read-only t= o clients.

And there may be some cases where a list/l= eaf-list data node may exist in multiple instances with different control r= ules.

=C2=A0

To be specific, An instance-level annotati= on could be useful in following use cases:

a)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The system generates some QoS templat= es when QoS functionality is enabled, and some of the generated templates a= re read-only, while others are free to be updated by the clients.

b)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The system predefines some list/leaf-= list instances which are read-only for clients(the clients cannot update or= delete them, like predefined NACM rules), but the clients is free to add/update/delete = their own defined instances.

=C2=A0

While YANG-extension can be useful for a s= chema-level immutability.

I am thinking that, maybe we need both to = complete the solution?

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Qiufang

=C2=A0

From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 7:14 AM
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:06 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com= >
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 22:32
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsso= n.com>
Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immuta= ble-flag-00

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 2:16 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Andy,

I also propose an extension. (see my mail Revi= ew of draft-ma-netmod-immutable-flag-00)

In Ericsson we saw no need for exceptions, but= do see the need for applying it to descendant nodes. Typically we need to = protect a full subtree.

=C2=A0

Why do you need the exceptions? Could you prov= ide some use-case examples ?

=C2=A0

I think create/delete-only and modify-only acc= ess modes are used the most, after no-access.

BALAZS: How is a modify-only data-node differe= nt from a mandatory data-node? It must be there but can be changed. It get<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=99s an initial value somehow.

=C2=A0

Mandatory=3Dtrue requires the system to provid= e a value.

Modify-only allows the system to decide when a= n instance is created.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

BALAZS: Any examples when would a create/delet= e only data node be used?

=C2=A0

Sometimes developers do not want to write comp= lex instrumentation that supports

modification of resources.=C2=A0 Instead a use= r has to delete the old entry and create a new

one with (potentially) different parameters.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Applying to descendant nodes may be better, or= may require more work to

undo the extension used in an ancestor node. T= his impacts the extension usage within a grouping.

=C2=A0

BALAZS2: I did not include it in my mail, but = we actually have one more rule:

=E2=80=9CTop level= statements in augment or groupings do NOT inherit

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the stati= c-data value from containing nodes, they default to

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 static-da= ta false.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This seems complicated to users and developers= to track how the final schema tree was derived.

=C2=A0

The 'static-data' extension seems fine= to me.

We have to support 'user-write' anyway= s, so it is better if it is not too close to this extension.<= /span>

Things that seem the same, but are NOT the sam= e cause the most support tickets.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards Balazs

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.o= rg> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March, 2022 21:10
To: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Alternative approach to draft-ma-netmod-immutable-= flag-00

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

IMO the problem should be viewed as a refineme= nt to the

access control policy of the device.=C2=A0 A s= tandard mechanism

such as a YANG extension would be better than = a growing

mix of proprietary solutions.

=C2=A0

We have such a YANG extension called "use= r-write" that is widely deployed.

A simple boolean is not fine enough granularit= y, so a bits type is

needed instead to allow control of create, upd= ate, and delete access operations.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAF83A0A73 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GpF8teYysY1B for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049563A0A85 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [173.38.220.41]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B81121AE0A66; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:37:56 +0100 (CET) From: Jan Lindblad Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DFBB5E79-60AD-441D-962C-B956B7150951" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:37:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman , =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , Kent Watsen References: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 20:38:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DFBB5E79-60AD-441D-962C-B956B7150951 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Andy, Balazs, Kent, Thanks for your very good questions. Comments inline. > I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the same as the one = defined in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a statement like: >=20 > =E2=80=9CThe etag values maintained by the server are = protocol/interface independent. If requested the same etag values will = be visible on all interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D= >=20 > =20 >=20 > While it makes sense that a server would use the same values across = protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do, if we could state it = in a NETCONF-specific draft. >=20 > BALAZS2: I see it as a VERY important advantage of the whole = YANG/Netconf/Restconf ecosystem that the separate protocols (practically = including the CLI and possibly a gui too) are just views of the same = central configuration datastore. So IMO this is important and should be = stated. >=20 As an implementor, I think it makes great sense to use the same = underlaying mechanism for all mgmt interfaces. I could imagine some implementors planning to lean on the wire = representation to compute hashes over the data as their ETag = implementation. That would not be possible under this requirement, but = ruling out that particular idea would not be problematic, imo. Long ago, I pondered this question for a while, but then I wasn't able = to think of a use case where a client would benefit from a guarantee = that all interfaces have common ETags, so I left it out in order to not = produce a CLR. I'm not against adding this requirement if we can think = of a reasonable reason why. Adding a requirement for CLI+GUI sounds hard = in practice, though. > I strongly support this approach. > It applies to the entire server API, including notifications. > E.g., a client should be able to reuse code for processing NETCONF = notifications, > even if the protocol is RESTCONF or the new YANG-Push over UDP. >=20 > The RESTCONF mechanisms adapted from HTTP should be extended to be > protocol-independent. Our goal should be code to the YANG models, NOT = the protocols. Yes, I certainly like that.=20 > Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your reason to exclude = them from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps they would = be protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is to make = them available on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI). >=20 > I agree and have mentioned before. LastModified either needs to be = added, or justified why not added, to get my adoption support. >=20 I'm not against having Last-Modified in there. In fact, it was in the = draft initially. Here's the justification why I removed it :-) + When I started the cost/benefit analysis for what I proposed, I soon = found that it's not unimportant how many and how large ETag attributes = are added to the payload. Having two mechanisms (i.e. both ETag and = Last-Modified) doing pretty much the same thing started to look = expensive in performance. + Since it's essential that the time stamp would have to be the same on = all touched elements, all the components/subsystems/subagents involved = would still have to be fed the exact time from the central management = agent. + Then there's one or two more things with If-Unmodified-Since that I = discuss below. > I agree. They both need to be supported in RESTCONF. RESTCONF has a SHOULD for the (single) datastore root level and MAY for = the deeper levels.=20 > A timestamp can be applied to multiple servers, unlike the ETag = values. I don't think this analysis is correct. A client connecting with 15 = servers in a network wide transaction would surely receive several = differing timestamps. The times may be fairly close if NTP is running = fine, latency is low, network and cpu load is even and the servers are = running similar code, but they will rarely all be the same even with the = low 1s Last-Modified resolution. If you allow clients to set the ETag in = the request (which is trivial to allow), then the tags could be exactly = the same across all servers (and known to the client before the request = is even sent to the servers, allowing request pipelining). > Typical usage is for the client to track its own polling timestamps, > and use If-Modified-Since to retrieve data only if needed. > The same timestamp can also be used with If-Unmodified-Since for = edits. If-Unmodified-Since is what set me going with this whole draft, so = obviously I value that mechanism highly. The fact that it works with = timestamps worries me a bit, however.=20 First, the resolution is pretty low, 1s. It is quite possible that a = server could process more than one edit/POST in the same second, in = which case this mechanism might indicate no change has taken place when = in fact it has. Secondly, while the idea with timestamps and "unmodified since" is very = convenient, it's also quite brittle. If a client ever sends an edit = request to a server without using the If-Unmodified-Since, it may miss = an update made by another client. The ETag mechanism does not have that = issue. If this isn't obvious, here's an example: 1. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodified-Since t0. = Successful. Receives a Last-Modified timestamp t1. 2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. Last-Modified timestamp on = server is now t2. 3. Client A sends an edit to the server without If-Unmodified-Since. It = just sets one tiny little leaf off in one corner. Successful. Received a = Last-Modified timestamp t3. 4. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodified-Since t3. = Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, leading to a misconfiguration, = which opens a security hole. This is because the If-Unmodified-Since uses less than or equal in its = test. The ETag mechanism is not susceptible to this issue, as it uses an = equality test. Best Regards, /jan --Apple-Mail=_DFBB5E79-60AD-441D-962C-B956B7150951 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Andy,= Balazs, Kent,

Thanks = for your very good questions. Comments inline.

I assume that the etag = defined in your I-D is the same as the one defined in Restconf. Does or = should your draft include a statement like:

=E2=80=9CThe etag values = maintained by the server are protocol/interface independent. If = requested the same etag values will be visible on all interface = including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D

 

While it makes sense that a = server would use the same values across protocols, I'm unsure if it's = needed and, if we do, if we could state it in a NETCONF-specific = draft.

BALAZS2: I see it as a VERY = important advantage of the whole YANG/Netconf/Restconf ecosystem that = the separate protocols (practically including the CLI and possibly a gui = too) are just views of the same central configuration datastore. So IMO this is important and should be stated.

=
As an implementor, I think it makes great sense to use = the same underlaying mechanism for all mgmt interfaces.

I could imagine some implementors planning to = lean on the wire representation to compute hashes over the data as their = ETag implementation. That would not be possible under this requirement, = but ruling out that particular idea would not be problematic, = imo.

Long ago, I pondered this = question for a while, but then I wasn't able to think of a use case = where a client would benefit from a guarantee that all interfaces have = common ETags, so I left it out in order to not produce a CLR. I'm not = against adding this requirement if we can think of a reasonable reason = why. Adding a requirement for CLI+GUI sounds hard in practice, = though.

I = strongly support this approach.
It applies to the = entire server API, including notifications.
E.g., a = client should be able to reuse code for processing NETCONF = notifications,
even if the protocol is RESTCONF or = the new YANG-Push over UDP.

The RESTCONF mechanisms adapted from HTTP should be extended = to be
protocol-independent.  Our goal should = be code to the YANG models, NOT the = protocols.

Yes, I certainly like that. 

Restconf also includes = timestamps. What was your reason to exclude them from your I-D ? IMHO if = the server maintains timestamps they would be protocol/interface = independent just as etags, so the task is to make them available on = Netconf too (and maybe the CLI).

I agree and have mentioned = before.  LastModified either needs to be added, or justified why = not added, to get my adoption support.

I'm not against having Last-Modified in there. In fact, it = was in the draft initially. Here's the justification why I removed it = :-)

+ When I started the = cost/benefit analysis for what I proposed, I soon found that it's not = unimportant how many and how large ETag attributes are added to the = payload. Having two mechanisms (i.e. both ETag and Last-Modified) doing = pretty much the same thing started to look expensive in = performance.
+ Since it's essential that the time stamp would = have to be the same on all touched elements, all the = components/subsystems/subagents involved would still have to be fed the = exact time from the central management agent.
+ Then there's = one or two more things with If-Unmodified-Since that I discuss = below.

I agree. They both need to be supported in = RESTCONF.

RESTCONF has a SHOULD for the (single) datastore = root level and MAY for the deeper levels. 

A timestamp can be = applied to multiple servers, unlike the ETag = values.

I = don't think this analysis is correct. A client connecting with 15 = servers in a network wide transaction would surely receive several = differing timestamps. The times may be fairly close if NTP is running = fine, latency is low, network and cpu load is even and the servers are = running similar code, but they will rarely all be the same even with the = low 1s Last-Modified resolution. If you allow clients to set the ETag in = the request (which is trivial to allow), then the tags could be exactly = the same across all servers (and known to the client before the request = is even sent to the servers, allowing request pipelining).

Typical usage is = for the client to track its own polling timestamps,
and use If-Modified-Since to retrieve data only if = needed.
The same timestamp can also be used with = If-Unmodified-Since for edits.

If-Unmodified-Since is what set me going with this = whole draft, so obviously I value that mechanism highly. The fact that = it works with timestamps worries me a bit, however. 

First, the resolution is pretty low, 1s. It is = quite possible that a server could process more than one edit/POST in = the same second, in which case this mechanism might indicate no change = has taken place when in fact it has.

Secondly, while the idea with timestamps and = "unmodified since" is very convenient, it's also quite brittle. If a = client ever sends an edit request to a server without using the = If-Unmodified-Since, it may miss an update made by another client. The = ETag mechanism does not have that issue.

If this isn't obvious, here's an = example:
1. Client A sends an edit to the server = If-Unmodified-Since t0. Successful. Receives a Last-Modified timestamp = t1.
2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. Last-Modified = timestamp on server is now t2.
3. Client A sends an edit to = the server without If-Unmodified-Since. It just sets one tiny little = leaf off in one corner. Successful. Received a Last-Modified timestamp = t3.
4. Client A sends an edit to the server = If-Unmodified-Since t3. Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, = leading to a misconfiguration, which opens a security = hole.

This is because the = If-Unmodified-Since uses less than or equal in its test. The ETag = mechanism is not susceptible to this issue, as it uses an equality = test.

Best = Regards,
/jan

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2002:a5b:842:0:b0:633:75b6:4129 with SMTP id v2-20020a5b0842000000b0063375b64129mr7369795ybq.64.1648162626037; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:57:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:56:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= Cc: Jan Lindblad , Kent Watsen , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db803005dafec32e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 22:57:13 -0000 --000000000000db803005dafec32e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 1:52 PM Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel wrote: > Hello Jan, > > I don=E2=80=99t see a specific need for timestamps, so I can accept your = arguments > against it. Just add a sentence about it somewhere into the draft. It can > be an appendix. > > > OK with me. A timestamp could be added in the future if it is really important enough. In fact, it would be a good idea to break from ETag completely, because that is tied to the representation, which is not what is needed here. We call a "transaction-id" a "config-id" once it is applied to a datastore. The internal uint64 ID is global, not per datastore. The "config-id" attribute is added to the element in certain cases= . (It is useful to expose the config-id in , NV-store, etc) Common/Uniform ETAGs for multiple interfaces is only important if you > actually use multiple interfaces. That actually happens when > troubleshooters use a big OSS system to do most of the work, but also use= a > thin client or the CLI to check a few things during the process. So yes > uniform Etags are important. > I would say universal transaction-ids (same in each protocol) is a SHOULD, not a MUST. > Regards Balazs > Andy > > > *From:* Jan Lindblad > *Sent:* Thursday, 24 March, 2022 21:38 > *To:* Andy Bierman ; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>; Kent Watsen > *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces > (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) > > > > Andy, Balazs, Kent, > > > > Thanks for your very good questions. Comments inline. > > I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the same as the one defined > in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a statement like: > > =E2=80=9CThe etag values maintained by the server are protocol/interface > independent. If requested the same etag values will be visible on all > interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D > > > > While it makes sense that a server would use the same values across > protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do, if we could state it = in > a NETCONF-specific draft. > > BALAZS2: I see it as a VERY important advantage of the whole > YANG/Netconf/Restconf ecosystem that the separate protocols (practically > including the CLI and possibly a gui too) are just views of the same > central configuration datastore. So IMO this is important and should be > stated. > > As an implementor, I think it makes great sense to use the same > underlaying mechanism for all mgmt interfaces. > > > > I could imagine some implementors planning to lean on the wire > representation to compute hashes over the data as their ETag > implementation. That would not be possible under this requirement, but > ruling out that particular idea would not be problematic, imo. > > > > Long ago, I pondered this question for a while, but then I wasn't able to > think of a use case where a client would benefit from a guarantee that al= l > interfaces have common ETags, so I left it out in order to not produce a > CLR. I'm not against adding this requirement if we can think of a > reasonable reason why. Adding a requirement for CLI+GUI sounds hard in > practice, though. > > I strongly support this approach. > > It applies to the entire server API, including notifications. > > E.g., a client should be able to reuse code for processing NETCONF > notifications, > > even if the protocol is RESTCONF or the new YANG-Push over UDP. > > > > The RESTCONF mechanisms adapted from HTTP should be extended to be > > protocol-independent. Our goal should be code to the YANG models, NOT th= e > protocols. > > > > Yes, I certainly like that. > > Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your reason to exclude them > from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps they would be > protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is to make them > available on Netconf too (and maybe the CLI). > > I agree and have mentioned before. LastModified either needs to be added= , > or justified why not added, to get my adoption support. > > I'm not against having Last-Modified in there. In fact, it was in the > draft initially. Here's the justification why I removed it :-) > > > > + When I started the cost/benefit analysis for what I proposed, I soon > found that it's not unimportant how many and how large ETag attributes ar= e > added to the payload. Having two mechanisms (i.e. both ETag and > Last-Modified) doing pretty much the same thing started to look expensive > in performance. > > + Since it's essential that the time stamp would have to be the same on > all touched elements, all the components/subsystems/subagents involved > would still have to be fed the exact time from the central management age= nt. > > + Then there's one or two more things with If-Unmodified-Since that I > discuss below. > > > > I agree. They both need to be supported in RESTCONF. > > > > RESTCONF has a SHOULD for the (single) datastore root level and MAY for > the deeper levels. > > > > A timestamp can be applied to multiple servers, unlike the ETag values. > > > > I don't think this analysis is correct. A client connecting with 15 > servers in a network wide transaction would surely receive several > differing timestamps. The times may be fairly close if NTP is running fin= e, > latency is low, network and cpu load is even and the servers are running > similar code, but they will rarely all be the same even with the low 1s > Last-Modified resolution. If you allow clients to set the ETag in the > request (which is trivial to allow), then the tags could be exactly the > same across all servers (and known to the client before the request is ev= en > sent to the servers, allowing request pipelining). > > > > Typical usage is for the client to track its own polling timestamps, > > and use If-Modified-Since to retrieve data only if needed. > > The same timestamp can also be used with If-Unmodified-Since for edits. > > > > If-Unmodified-Since is what set me going with this whole draft, so > obviously I value that mechanism highly. The fact that it works with > timestamps worries me a bit, however. > > > > First, the resolution is pretty low, 1s. It is quite possible that a > server could process more than one edit/POST in the same second, in which > case this mechanism might indicate no change has taken place when in fact > it has. > > > > Secondly, while the idea with timestamps and "unmodified since" is very > convenient, it's also quite brittle. If a client ever sends an edit reque= st > to a server without using the If-Unmodified-Since, it may miss an update > made by another client. The ETag mechanism does not have that issue. > > > > If this isn't obvious, here's an example: > > 1. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodified-Since t0. > Successful. Receives a Last-Modified timestamp t1. > > 2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. Last-Modified timestamp on > server is now t2. > > 3. Client A sends an edit to the server without If-Unmodified-Since. It > just sets one tiny little leaf off in one corner. Successful. Received a > Last-Modified timestamp t3. > > 4. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodified-Since t3. > Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, leading to a misconfiguration, > which opens a security hole. > > > > This is because the If-Unmodified-Since uses less than or equal in its > test. The ETag mechanism is not susceptible to this issue, as it uses an > equality test. > > > > Best Regards, > > /jan > > > --000000000000db803005dafec32e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 1:52 PM Bal= =C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.= lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello Jan,

I don=E2=80=99t see a specific need for timestamps, = so I can accept your arguments against it. Just add a sentence about it som= ewhere into the draft. It can be an appendix.

=C2=A0


<= /div>
OK with me.
A timestamp could be added in the future if= it is really important enough.

In fact, it would = be a good idea to break from ETag completely, because that is tied
to the representation, which is not what is needed here.

We call a "transaction-id" a "config-id" once = it is applied to a datastore.
The internal uint64 ID=C2=A0is glob= al, not per datastore.
The "config-id" attribute is add= ed to the <config> element in certain cases.
(It is useful = to expose the config-id in <get-config>, NV-store, etc)


=

Common/Uniform ETAGs for multiple interfaces is only= important if you actually use multiple interfaces. That actually happens w= hen troubleshooters use a big OSS system to do most of the work, but also u= se a thin client or the CLI to check a few things during the process. So yes uniform Etags are important.


I would say universal transactio= n-ids (same in each protocol) is a SHOULD, not a MUST.
=C2=A0

Regards Balazs


=
Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Jan Lindblad <janl@tail-f.com>
Sent: Thursday, 24 March, 2022 21:38
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.= com>; Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>
Cc: netmod@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draf= t-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id)

=C2=A0

Andy, Balazs, Kent,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your very good questions. Comments inline= .

I assume that the etag defined in your I-D is the sa= me as the one defined in Restconf. Does or should your draft include a stat= ement like:

=E2=80=9CThe etag values maintained by the server ar= e protocol/interface independent. If requested the same etag values will be= visible on all interface including Restconf, Netconf, CLI etc.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

While it makes sense that a server would use the sam= e values across protocols, I'm unsure if it's needed and, if we do,= if we could state it in a NETCONF-specific draft.

BALAZS2: I see it as a VERY important advantage of t= he whole YANG/Netconf/Restconf ecosystem that the separate protocols (pract= ically including the CLI and possibly a gui too) are just views of the same central configuration datastore. So IMO this is imp= ortant and should be stated.

As an implementor, I think it makes great sense to u= se the same underlaying mechanism for all mgmt interfaces.

=C2=A0

I could imagine some implementors planning to lean o= n the wire representation to compute hashes over the data as their ETag imp= lementation. That would not be possible under this requirement, but ruling = out that particular idea would not be problematic, imo.

=C2=A0

Long ago, I pondered this question for a while, but = then I wasn't able to think of a use case where a client would benefit = from a guarantee that all interfaces have common ETags, so I left it out in= order to not produce a CLR. I'm not against adding this requirement if we can think of a reasonable reason why. Adding= a requirement for CLI+GUI sounds hard in practice, though.

I strongly support this approach.

It applies to the entire server API, including notif= ications.

E.g., a client should be able to reuse code for proc= essing NETCONF notifications,

even if the protocol is RESTCONF or the new YANG-Pus= h over UDP.

=C2=A0

The RESTCONF mechanisms adapted from HTTP should be = extended to be

protocol-independent.=C2=A0 Our goal should be code = to the YANG models, NOT the protocols.

=C2=A0

Yes, I certainly like that.=C2=A0

Restconf also includes timestamps. What was your rea= son to exclude them from your I-D ? IMHO if the server maintains timestamps= they would be protocol/interface independent just as etags, so the task is to make them available on Netconf too (and maybe = the CLI).

I agree and have mentioned before.=C2=A0 LastModifie= d either needs to be added, or justified why not added, to get my adoption = support.

I'm not against having Last-Modified in there. I= n fact, it was in the draft initially. Here's the justification why I r= emoved it :-)

=C2=A0

+ When I started the cost/benefit analysis for what = I proposed, I soon found that it's not unimportant how many and how lar= ge ETag attributes are added to the payload. Having two mechanisms (i.e. bo= th ETag and Last-Modified) doing pretty much the same thing started to look expensive in performance.

+ Since it's essential that the time stamp would= have to be the same on all touched elements, all the components/subsystems= /subagents involved would still have to be fed the exact time from the cent= ral management agent.

+ Then there's one or two more things with If-Un= modified-Since that I discuss below.

=C2=A0

I agree. They both need to be supported in RESTCONF.=

=C2=A0

RESTCONF has a SHOULD for the (single) datastore roo= t level and MAY for the deeper levels.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

A timestamp can be applied to multiple servers, unli= ke the ETag values.

=C2=A0

I don't think this analysis is correct. A client= connecting with 15 servers in a network wide transaction would surely rece= ive several differing timestamps. The times may be fairly close if NTP is r= unning fine, latency is low, network and cpu load is even and the servers are running similar code, but they will r= arely all be the same even with the low 1s Last-Modified resolution. If you= allow clients to set the ETag in the request (which is trivial to allow), = then the tags could be exactly the same across all servers (and known to the client before the request is eve= n sent to the servers, allowing request pipelining).



Typical usage is for the client to track its own pol= ling timestamps,

and use If-Modified-Since to retrieve data only if n= eeded.

The same timestamp can also be used with If-Unmodifi= ed-Since for edits.

=C2=A0

If-Unmodified-Since is what set me going with this w= hole draft, so obviously I value that mechanism highly. The fact that it wo= rks with timestamps worries me a bit, however.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

First, the resolution is pretty low, 1s. It is quite= possible that a server could process more than one edit/POST in the same s= econd, in which case this mechanism might indicate no change has taken plac= e when in fact it has.

=C2=A0

Secondly, while the idea with timestamps and "u= nmodified since" is very convenient, it's also quite brittle. If a= client ever sends an edit request to a server without using the If-Unmodif= ied-Since, it may miss an update made by another client. The ETag mechanism does not have that issue.

=C2=A0

If this isn't obvious, here's an example:=

1. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodifie= d-Since t0. Successful. Receives a Last-Modified timestamp t1.

2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. Last-Modi= fied timestamp on server is now t2.

3. Client A sends an edit to the server without If-U= nmodified-Since. It just sets one tiny little leaf off in one corner. Succe= ssful. Received a Last-Modified timestamp t3.

4. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodifie= d-Since t3. Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, leading to a misc= onfiguration, which opens a security hole.

=C2=A0

This is because the If-Unmodified-Since uses less th= an or equal in its test. The ETag mechanism is not susceptible to this issu= e, as it uses an equality test.

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

/jan

=C2=A0

--000000000000db803005dafec32e-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 16:24:53 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fbe3ef0c1-de2d2f32-3f9a-44fc-a1f2-6ce1a246ab20-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF943A0E4E for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qpasz5DSvLjk for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D696E3A0DDD for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:24:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648164270; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=bHaVU0JAXFU9rkYiTWHp3JjPhi1g7cNilyeRjdAvEQk=; b=M10YAzXTcKJI2mroaaYJsudkcrcWsDop8IQoPDDiCdmq1LKTdc5r+fdJP+zVH72+ bxauMu92hToacDIU4cKrPFBzmsiDdOUaSzsoRfCzYvN8kpjiRZKjgKUZA1j2das2TKw pg0JOVxZIY6h2sbVI+t244C4rPPKajUZCV6HvXC0= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fbe3ef0c1-de2d2f32-3f9a-44fc-a1f2-6ce1a246ab20-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FBAF7DD7-9C6D-4AB5-BDA5-25965BE8E582" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 23:24:30 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Andy Bierman , =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Jan Lindblad References: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.24-54.240.48.94 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 23:24:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FBAF7DD7-9C6D-4AB5-BDA5-25965BE8E582 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Jan, > On Mar 24, 2022, at 4:37 PM, Jan Lindblad wrote: >=20 > f this isn't obvious, here's an example: > 1. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodified-Since t0. = Successful. Receives a Last-Modified timestamp t1. > 2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. Last-Modified timestamp on = server is now t2. > 3. Client A sends an edit to the server without If-Unmodified-Since. = It just sets one tiny little leaf off in one corner. Successful. = Received a Last-Modified timestamp t3. > 4. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Unmodified-Since t3. = Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, leading to a misconfiguration, = which opens a security hole. >=20 > This is because the If-Unmodified-Since uses less than or equal in its = test. The ETag mechanism is not susceptible to this issue, as it uses an = equality test. I don't think this example is valid. Skipping past the obvious = programming error, the equivalency you're trying to make applies to = Etags too. 1. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Match e0. Successful. = Receives a ETag e1. 2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. ETag on server is now e2. 3. Client A sends an edit to the server without If-Match. It just sets = one tiny little leaf off in one corner. Successful. Received a ETag e3. 4. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Match e3. Successful, but = clobbers Client B's edit, leading to a misconfiguration, which opens a = security hole. Kent // contributor --Apple-Mail=_FBAF7DD7-9C6D-4AB5-BDA5-25965BE8E582 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Jan,

On Mar 24, 2022, at 4:37 PM, Jan Lindblad = <janl@tail-f.com> = wrote:

f = this isn't obvious, here's an example:
1. Client A sends an edit to the = server If-Unmodified-Since t0. Successful. Receives a Last-Modified = timestamp t1.
2. Client B sends a an edit to the server. = Last-Modified timestamp on server is now t2.
3. = Client A sends an edit to the server without If-Unmodified-Since. It = just sets one tiny little leaf off in one corner. Successful. Received a = Last-Modified timestamp t3.
4. Client A sends an edit to the = server If-Unmodified-Since t3. Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, = leading to a misconfiguration, which opens a security hole.

This is because the If-Unmodified-Since uses less than = or equal in its test. The ETag mechanism is not susceptible to this = issue, as it uses an equality test.

I don't think this example is valid.   = Skipping past the obvious programming error, the equivalency you're = trying to make applies to Etags too.

1. Client A sends an edit to the server = If-Match e0. Successful. Receives a ETag e1.
2. Client B = sends a an edit to the server. ETag on server is now e2.
3. = Client A sends an edit to the server without If-Match. It just sets one = tiny little leaf off in one corner. Successful. Received a ETag = e3.
4. Client A sends an edit to the server If-Match e3. = Successful, but clobbers Client B's edit, leading to = a misconfiguration, which opens a security hole.


Kent= // contributor




= --Apple-Mail=_FBAF7DD7-9C6D-4AB5-BDA5-25965BE8E582-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 16:33:38 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fbe472ae5-7153357c-10cc-4055-92c7-e06e03681e92-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565D83A0D25 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:33:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CJfL8z9hWjbw for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 264B13A0CB3 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:33:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648164809; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=2PqCPBdSJN6D8k155wYg/HLM44tpMUjLdyRlEZ6PpPk=; b=gOC6A0dfkPu+dUiVITHnROQerXG8Z4YfcT6wI5TM1uKwS2hHDvoncSuEm2KKf9r6 v9FS4VnTZ12drXanJBQqAaB1H1TGRLye8MCwahQfK1IWmLs4PRPIa7stBD3N3mrPRvj tqXx7HNfitmOxBEXyhWLEKrF1yAV0VZBSp+rnqfQ= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fbe472ae5-7153357c-10cc-4055-92c7-e06e03681e92-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B24F44BB-DE93-40C1-AFEE-33D0DDEDD7D4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 23:33:29 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman References: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.24-54.240.48.94 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 23:33:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B24F44BB-DE93-40C1-AFEE-33D0DDEDD7D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > I don=E2=80=99t see a specific need for timestamps, so I can accept = your arguments against it. Just add a sentence about it somewhere into = the draft. It can be an appendix.=20 >=20 >=20 > OK with me. > A timestamp could be added in the future if it is really important = enough. LastModified is drop-dead simple to do and achieves equivalency, no more = justification is needed. The same rules apply: - ETag is a MUST, LastModified is a MAY - root-node is a MUST, inner-nodes is a MAY Kent=20 --Apple-Mail=_B24F44BB-DE93-40C1-AFEE-33D0DDEDD7D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

I= don=E2=80=99t see a specific need for timestamps, so I can accept your = arguments against it. Just add a sentence about it somewhere into the = draft. It can be an appendix. 


OK with me.
A timestamp could be added in the future if it is really = important enough.


LastModified is = drop-dead simple to do and achieves equivalency, no more justification = is needed.

The same rules = apply:

- ETag is a MUST, LastModified is = a MAY
= - root-node is a MUST, inner-nodes is a MAY

Kent 

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: rOlmrZ7MxtYkmNNUU8re/wzCpnzpj1Z7e5afEve1z27d8wu6M+MUHuDaKjCwnKAxSS8ebeMOu+4BW9oba8Y3sVTQmSuKLQJtvtHmCE/uKns= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8P190MB1142 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 07:15:24 -0000 Dear Med, I still do not understand the meaning of this text: For IANA-maintained modules, this recommendation takes precedence over the behavior specified in Section 4.11.1 of [RFC8407] because the extensibility concern is not applicable for such modules. I fail to see why the extensibility aspects discussed in Section 4.11.1 of [RFC8407] are not applicable to IANA modules. Also note that Section 4.11.1 of [RFC8407] is about the choice between an enumeration and identities. Your text says: An IANA-maintained module may use identities (e.g., [RFC8675]) or typedefs (e.g., [RFC9108]). Note that enumerations and intentityrefs are both base types. To me, it does not make sense to compare identities against typedefs (a general mechanism to give a derived type a name). The quoted DOTS example is also about "enumerations" vs "identities" and not about "identities" vs "typedefs". Anyway, my main point is that I do not see that the extensibility implications of enumerations and identities change just because a module is owned by IANA. Allocating a new enum requires an update of the module defining the enum, i.e., allocation is centralized. Identities do not require that a central module is updated to allocate a new value, i.e., vendors can independently allocate values. This fundamental difference does not change just because a module is owned by IANA. /js On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 06:36:09AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all, > > FWIW, a new version that reflects the comments heard so far is available online: > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-01.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries/ > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-01 > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Jürgen Schönwälder > > Envoyé : jeudi 24 mars 2022 12:52 > > À : Qin Wu > > Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; > > netmod@ietf.org > > Objet : Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair- > > netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 11:23:39AM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > > >-----邮件原件----- > > > >发件人: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Jürgen > > Sch?nw?lder > > > >发送时间: 2022年3月24日 18:56 > > > >收件人: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > >抄送: netmod@ietf.org > > > >主题: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for > > > >draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > > > > > >On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:44:42AM +0000, > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > > >> > It seems that later on you are actually changing what RFC 8407 > > > >> > says although I am not sure I understand the reasoning. RFC 8407 > > > >> > recommends to use enums if there is a single naming authority > > > >> > allocating values and thus ensuring uniqness of values. I am not > > > >> > sure in which sense the DOTS decision to use enums is not inline > > > >> > with what RFC 8407 says. DOTS may have decided to go with enums > > > >> > for space reasons and then this decision implies that values have > > > >> > to be centrally allocated. Note that there are IANA registries > > > >> > that allow distributed allocation of values and for thoses cases > > > >> > the RFC 8407 recommendation to use identities still applies I > > think. > > > >> > > > >> [Med] I was referring to this part: > > > >> > > > >> If extensibility of enumerated values is required, then the > > > >> "identityref" data type SHOULD be used instead of an enumeration > > or > > > >> other built-in type. > > > >> > > > > > > >But why do you think this statement of RFC 8407 needs any changes or > > different interpretations? > > > > > > [Qin Wu] If my understanding is correct, Authors of document > > > containing YANG data model face dilemma choices now, i.e.,whether > > > 1.change enum into identities which avoid updating the module defining > > the enum in the future 2. Or stick to use enum and separate all enum > > types into IANA-Maintained YANG Modules, which also avoid updating the > > module, in addition, another benefit is to make sure the same registry > > maintenance for the module that get updated. > > > For the second choice, here is one related discussion raised by Lada > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/AILS-FptdNxMWFgSHiSjbwGc6 > > > tM/ > > > both seems to work. > > > > > > > I am writing about IANA maintained modules, not about why one should use > > IANA maintained modules. > > > > /js > > > > -- > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Mar 25 00:50:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E309E3A0FF5 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8f55d033-99b0-424f-c772-08da0e35ab1d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM0P190MB0641.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2022 08:01:29.4507 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: ECHBebYRZWoMbCeyn4xc5ugxDcegDOE4Hcs394ycOu1URDQcVRiQHlj2Z/p1TjCy+LXDqDUUqFXDrimNEaUpEFtDfQIWADKnoN/SQixcx0g= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1P190MB0398 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:01:41 -0000 On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 07:49:42AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Anyway, my main point is that I do not see that the extensibility > > implications of enumerations and identities change just because a module > > is owned by IANA. Allocating a new enum requires an update of the module > > defining the enum, i.e., allocation is centralized. > > [Med] The point is that adding a new enum is possible. The extensibility concern with enums we used to have for non IANA-maintained modules does not apply. I agree that identities are more flexible. That’s why the suggested text requires a justification text to motivate the design choice. > Adding an enum is always possible, regardless who "owns" the module. Yes, it is process wise easier to add an enum to an IANA maintained module than an IETF maintained module. But this has nothing to do with the text in the RFC you believe needs an update. /js -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Mar 25 01:40:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9CA3A110D for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 01:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: RaeoDwAvQ0903ZONF76LynpZMAltNnj7BOClgV4TYaKPM/g3qU1BLgWl9Nyz9/3houlVPBKrLXJiiPCLOxt/RCe5WJSD0LLK6/ga/380igo= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7P190MB0758 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:11:21 -0000 I guess I still fail to understand what the issue is. I do not understand what needs changes and why or why "ownership" by IANA would change any guidelines. /js On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 08:40:30AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Jürgen Schönwälder > > Envoyé : vendredi 25 mars 2022 09:01 > > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET > > Cc : Qin Wu ; netmod@ietf.org > > Objet : Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair- > > netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 07:49:42AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > wrote: > > > > > > Anyway, my main point is that I do not see that the extensibility > > > > implications of enumerations and identities change just because a > > > > module is owned by IANA. Allocating a new enum requires an update of > > > > the module defining the enum, i.e., allocation is centralized. > > > > > > [Med] The point is that adding a new enum is possible. The > > extensibility concern with enums we used to have for non IANA-maintained > > modules does not apply. I agree that identities are more flexible. > > That’s why the suggested text requires a justification text to motivate > > the design choice. > > > > > > > Adding an enum is always possible, regardless who "owns" the module. > > Yes, it is process wise easier to add an enum to an IANA maintained > > module than an IETF maintained module. > > [Med] Glad to see that we agree on this. This is even important here as we are trying to keep IANA as the authoritative source for modules that echo an existing registry + generalize the use of yang as another "Available Format" for the registries. > > But this has nothing to do with > > the text in the RFC you believe needs an update. > > [Med] I trust what you are saying but I'm still not sure everyone has this interpretation. > > We may get rid of the update if we also think this falls under this text: > > If the set of values is fixed and the data type contents are > ^^^ > controlled by a single naming authority, then an enumeration data > type SHOULD be used. > > but "and" is problematic. "or" would better fit what we are discussing here. > > > > > /js > > > > -- > > Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Mar 25 03:26:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F763A0BE3 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1PFZsvP9i79p for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAE233A0BD3 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wedge.nic.cz (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:29:ffff::a9f]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5624F140831; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:26:18 +0100 (CET) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "netmod@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <25673_1648115236_623C3E24_25673_395_1_b8104fec9cd14dd6a73a464b6aaf7ddb@orange.com> References: <164811486213.31055.16978666706993858336@ietfa.amsl.com> <25673_1648115236_623C3E24_25673_395_1_b8104fec9cd14dd6a73a464b6aaf7ddb@orange.com> Mail-Followup-To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "netmod@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:26:17 +0100 Message-ID: <87y20y8h12.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 10:26:27 -0000 Hi Med, here are my comments: YANG modules should be as tightly coupled as possible to the corresponding = IANA registries. In an ideal world, YANG would simply have a statement for = using a registry directly. This is, however, not possible in the current st= ate of affairs. In particular, a separate module mirroring an IANA registry is almost alway= s needed. Identities versus typedefs/enumerations: I think the text in sec. 4.11.1 of= RFC 8407 applies to IANA registries as well. I would only add that identit= ies are preferable if *distributed* extensibility is needed, i.e. if differ= ent parties are expected to define public and long-living entries on their = own. Identities could also be extremely useful if the registry entries are organ= ized hierarchically, possibly including multiple inheritance.=20 One caveat regarding identities: for reasons that are unclear to me, YANG r= equires identity names (unlike enums) to be identifiers. That's why it is n= ot possible to use identities without workarounds e.g. for Media Types, whe= re it would IMO make a lot of sense. Last paragraph in sec. 3: "Designers of IANA-maintained modules MAY supply the full Initial version of the module in a specification document that registers the module or only a script to be used by IANA for generating the module (e.g., an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in Appendix A of [RFC9108])." The first option turned out to be no-go in the DNSOP WG during the preparat= ion of RFC 9108. The main objection was that, despite all warnings, impleme= ntors would blindly use the initial revision published in an RFC even after= some entries become deprecated and might be potentially dangerous. It was = thus proposed to e.g. keep the initial module revision only in the I-D stag= e and ask RFC Editor to delete it before publishing it as an RFC. Eventuall= y, the XSLT stylesheet as a template for the initial module revision was ac= ceptable to everyone and worked very well with IANA, too. Another advantage of the XSLT-based solution is that it allows for generati= ng an always up-to-date revision of the YANG module from the online XML rep= resentation of the IANA registry. As a proof of concept, I prepared XSLT st= ylesheets for a dozen or so registries [1]. Although it works quite well, I= do admit that it would be a drudgery to cover the full scope of existing I= ANA registries. Lada [1] https://github.com/llhotka/iana-yang writes: > Hi all,=20 > > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of IANA-maintained mo= dules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope will ensure some = consistency about how we are interacting with IANA registries. The goal is = avoid transforming YANG modules (if not maintained by IANA) as another sour= ce of information, which are likely to be out of sync.=20 > > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D.=20 > > Comments and suggestions are appreciated.=20 > > Cheers, > Med > > -----Message d'origine----- > De=C2=A0: internet-drafts@ietf.org =20 > Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: jeudi 24 mars 2022 10:41 > =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET > Objet=C2=A0: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-reg= istries-00.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mohamed Boucadair and posted to the IE= TF repository. > > Name: draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries > Revision: 00 > Title: Recommendations for Creating IANA-Maintained YANG Modules > Document date: 2022-03-24 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 5 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netmod-ia= na-registries-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod-i= ana-registries/ > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-net= mod-iana-registries > > > Abstract: > This document provides a set of guidelines for YANG module authors > related to the design of IANA-maintained modules. These guidelines > are meant to leverage existing IANA registries and use YANG as just > another format to present the content of these registries. > > This document updates RFC 8407. > >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid= entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re= cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i= nformation that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de= lete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Fri Mar 25 03:38:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B15B3A0DE8 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Another thing that we experienced in some corners of the IETF is that IANA registries are often tied to specific protocols and it is sometimes tempting to reuse a registry for a sligthly different purpose. This can cause problems down the road when for example definitions stop to make sense for the protocol the registry was created for (i.e., they should move to deprecated or obsolete) but other uses of the registry would still need the definition. This is not really an YANG specific issue but more a general issue whenever people try to reuse existing registries. If there are many uses of a given registry, you may end up with many (sometimes overlapping) definitions out of which only a subset make really sense for a given use case. In other words, generalizing the use of an existing registry beyonds its original scope can cause serious problems down the road. Again, this is not really YANG specific, but it has shown up with YANGified registries. /js On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 11:26:17AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Hi Med, > > here are my comments: > > YANG modules should be as tightly coupled as possible to the corresponding IANA registries. In an ideal world, YANG would simply have a statement for using a registry directly. This is, however, not possible in the current state of affairs. > > In particular, a separate module mirroring an IANA registry is almost always needed. > > Identities versus typedefs/enumerations: I think the text in sec. 4.11.1 of RFC 8407 applies to IANA registries as well. I would only add that identities are preferable if *distributed* extensibility is needed, i.e. if different parties are expected to define public and long-living entries on their own. > > Identities could also be extremely useful if the registry entries are organized hierarchically, possibly including multiple inheritance. > > One caveat regarding identities: for reasons that are unclear to me, YANG requires identity names (unlike enums) to be identifiers. That's why it is not possible to use identities without workarounds e.g. for Media Types, where it would IMO make a lot of sense. > > Last paragraph in sec. 3: > > "Designers of IANA-maintained modules MAY supply the full Initial > version of the module in a specification document that registers the > module or only a script to be used by IANA for generating the module > (e.g., an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in Appendix A of [RFC9108])." > > The first option turned out to be no-go in the DNSOP WG during the preparation of RFC 9108. The main objection was that, despite all warnings, implementors would blindly use the initial revision published in an RFC even after some entries become deprecated and might be potentially dangerous. It was thus proposed to e.g. keep the initial module revision only in the I-D stage and ask RFC Editor to delete it before publishing it as an RFC. Eventually, the XSLT stylesheet as a template for the initial module revision was acceptable to everyone and worked very well with IANA, too. > > Another advantage of the XSLT-based solution is that it allows for generating an always up-to-date revision of the YANG module from the online XML representation of the IANA registry. As a proof of concept, I prepared XSLT stylesheets for a dozen or so registries [1]. Although it works quite well, I do admit that it would be a drudgery to cover the full scope of existing IANA registries. > > Lada > > [1] https://github.com/llhotka/iana-yang > > writes: > > > Hi all, > > > > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of IANA-maintained modules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope will ensure some consistency about how we are interacting with IANA registries. The goal is avoid transforming YANG modules (if not maintained by IANA) as another source of information, which are likely to be out of sync. > > > > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D. > > > > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Envoyé : jeudi 24 mars 2022 10:41 > > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET > > Objet : New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Mohamed Boucadair and posted to the IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Recommendations for Creating IANA-Maintained YANG Modules > > Document date: 2022-03-24 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 5 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries/ > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries > > > > > > Abstract: > > This document provides a set of guidelines for YANG module authors > > related to the design of IANA-maintained modules. These guidelines > > are meant to leverage existing IANA registries and use YANG as just > > another format to present the content of these registries. > > > > This document updates RFC 8407. > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Jürgen Schönwälder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Mar 25 03:45:46 2022 Return-Path: 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Mar 2022 07:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D9nXgOnw1_kW for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 07:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E70DF3A0910 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 07:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wedge.nic.cz (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:29:ffff::a9f]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1BF5413FAA7; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:03:56 +0100 (CET) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "netmod@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <10835_1648205126_623D9D46_10835_21_2_b0e83ac2c589431d83b89b636bcf8f56@orange.com> References: <164811486213.31055.16978666706993858336@ietfa.amsl.com> <25673_1648115236_623C3E24_25673_395_1_b8104fec9cd14dd6a73a464b6aaf7ddb@orange.com> <87y20y8h12.fsf@nic.cz> <10835_1648205126_623D9D46_10835_21_2_b0e83ac2c589431d83b89b636bcf8f56@orange.com> Mail-Followup-To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "netmod@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:03:55 +0100 Message-ID: <87sfr686yc.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:04:05 -0000 writes: > Hi Lada,=20 > > Thank you for the comments.=20 > > Pleases see inline.=20 > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De=C2=A0: Ladislav Lhotka >> Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: vendredi 25 mars 2022 11:26 >> =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; >> netmod@ietf.org >> Objet=C2=A0: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucada= ir- >> netmod-iana-registries-00.txt >>=20 >> Hi Med, >>=20 >> here are my comments: >>=20 >> YANG modules should be as tightly coupled as possible to the >> corresponding IANA registries. In an ideal world, YANG would simply have >> a statement for using a registry directly. This is, however, not >> possible in the current state of affairs. >>=20 >> In particular, a separate module mirroring an IANA registry is almost >> always needed. >>=20 >> Identities versus typedefs/enumerations: I think the text in sec. 4.11.1 >> of RFC 8407 applies to IANA registries as well. I would only add that >> identities are preferable if *distributed* extensibility is needed, i.e. >> if different parties are expected to define public and long-living >> entries on their own. > > [Med] The current text in 8407 seems to just reason about fixed > values AND single maintainers. What I'm hearing from both you and > Jurgen is that this is not an update. I won't make a fixation on > that and will proceed with updating the text to reflect the > interpretation you shared. Thank you. > >>=20 >> Identities could also be extremely useful if the registry entries are >> organized hierarchically, possibly including multiple inheritance. > > [Med] Do you think we should include some text in the draft to call > out this aspect? Possibly, this is something that enumerations cannot model. > >>=20 >> One caveat regarding identities: for reasons that are unclear to me, >> YANG requires identity names (unlike enums) to be identifiers. That's >> why it is not possible to use identities without workarounds e.g. for >> Media Types, where it would IMO make a lot of sense. >>=20 >> Last paragraph in sec. 3: >>=20 >> "Designers of IANA-maintained modules MAY supply the full Initial >> version of the module in a specification document that registers the >> module or only a script to be used by IANA for generating the module >> (e.g., an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in Appendix A of [RFC9108])." >>=20 >> The first option turned out to be no-go in the DNSOP WG during the >> preparation of RFC 9108. The main objection was that, despite all >> warnings, implementors would blindly use the initial revision published >> in an RFC even after some entries become deprecated and might be >> potentially dangerous. It was thus proposed to e.g. keep the initial >> module revision only in the I-D stage and ask RFC Editor to delete it >> before publishing it as an RFC. Eventually, the XSLT stylesheet as a >> template for the initial module revision was acceptable to everyone and >> worked very well with IANA, too. >>=20 > > [Med] Thanks for the feedback. The proposed guideline is to let the desig= ners be aware of both approaches, decide based on their specific context, a= nd then include a justification for their choice. Yes, I suspect that different WGs may have different opinions on this. > >> Another advantage of the XSLT-based solution is that it allows for >> generating an always up-to-date revision of the YANG module from the >> online XML representation of the IANA registry. > > [Med] Agree. I will add a note about this.=20 > > As a proof of concept, I >> prepared XSLT stylesheets for a dozen or so registries [1]. Although it >> works quite well, I do admit that it would be a drudgery to cover the >> full scope of existing IANA registries. >>=20 >> Lada >>=20 >> [1] https://github.com/llhotka/iana-yang >>=20 > > [Med] Will add a pointer to this repo. Thanks. Thanks, Lada > >> writes: >>=20 >> > Hi all, >> > >> > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of IANA-maintained >> modules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope will ensure >> some consistency about how we are interacting with IANA registries. The >> goal is avoid transforming YANG modules (if not maintained by IANA) as >> another source of information, which are likely to be out of sync. >> > >> > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D. >> > >> > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Med >> > >> > -----Message d'origine----- >> > De=C2=A0: internet-drafts@ietf.org Envoy=C3= =A9=C2=A0: >> > jeudi 24 mars 2022 10:41 =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET >> > Objet=C2=A0: New Version Notification f= or >> > draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt >> > >> > >> > A new version of I-D, draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt >> > has been successfully submitted by Mohamed Boucadair and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> > >> > Name: draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries >> > Revision: 00 >> > Title: Recommendations for Creating IANA-Maintained YANG >> Modules >> > Document date: 2022-03-24 >> > Group: Individual Submission >> > Pages: 5 >> > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair- >> netmod-iana-registries-00.txt >> > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair- >> netmod-iana-registries/ >> > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair- >> netmod-iana-registries >> > >> > >> > Abstract: >> > This document provides a set of guidelines for YANG module authors >> > related to the design of IANA-maintained modules. These guidelines >> > are meant to leverage existing IANA registries and use YANG as just >> > another format to present the content of these registries. >> > >> > This document updates RFC 8407. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The IETF Secretariat >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________________________________ >> > ___________________________________________________ >> > >> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, >> > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message >> > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi >> que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles >> d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete >> altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. >> > >> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or >> > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not >> be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and >> delete this message and its attachments. >> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >> been modified, changed or falsified. >> > Thank you. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > netmod mailing list >> > netmod@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>=20 >> -- >> Ladislav Lhotka >> Head, CZ.NIC Labs >> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid= entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re= cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i= nformation that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de= lete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Fri Mar 25 08:04:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93533A14F0 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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2002:a81:84d2:0:b0:2e5:c04e:1976 with SMTP id u201-20020a8184d2000000b002e5c04e1976mr13201088ywf.212.1648247573109; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:32:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <67664d6fff3e4125a1ac026030ef067c@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:32:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Varga Cc: tom petch , yuchaode , "netmod@ietf.org" , Fatai Zhang Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000018f16705db128bf0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [CCAMP][TEAS][NETMOD] Efficiency issues with YANG model data in integration X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 22:33:00 -0000 --00000000000018f16705db128bf0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 3:17 PM Robert Varga wrote: > On 17/03/2022 17:32, tom petch wrote: > > > > When the data definition language that we know as YANG was being > specified, the question did arise of how object-oriented it should be and > the consensus was that it should not be. Seeking to retrofit such a > concept might be a bit like finding late in the day that the class > definitions that have been chosen do not go high up enough the tree:-( > > > > An interesting idea but I am not sure how feasible it will prove to be. > > RFC6095 might be a starting point for that sort of work. I am not sure > anybody ever implement that, though. > > This issues way back (at least) to the SMI-NG days circa 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/search/rfc3780 SMIv2 was never replaced for the very reasons cited in this thread. But NETCONF was intended for configuration, and CLI is hierarchical. So YANG is hierarchical. It is not that hard to unfold nested lists into an SMIv2-style table. You may have to rename key leafs and table names so they are unique. Regards, > Robert > Andy > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000018f16705db128bf0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 3:17 PM Rober= t Varga <nite@hq.sk&= gt; wrote:
On 17= /03/2022 17:32, tom petch wrote:
> <tp>
> When the data definition language that we know as YANG was being speci= fied, the question did arise of how object-oriented it should be and the co= nsensus was that it should not be.=C2=A0 Seeking to retrofit such a concept= might be a bit like finding late in the day that the class definitions tha= t have been chosen do not go high up enough the tree:-(
>
> An interesting idea but I am not sure how feasible it will prove to be= .

RFC6095 might be a starting point for that sort of work. I am not sure
anybody ever implement that, though.


This issues way back (at least)=C2=A0 = to the SMI-NG days circa 2002

SMIv2 was never replaced for the very reasons = cited in this thread.

But NETCONF was intended for= configuration, and CLI is hierarchical.
So YANG is hierarchical.=

It is not that hard to unfold nested lists into a= n SMIv2-style table.
You may have to rename key leafs and table n= ames so they are unique.


Regards,
Robert


Andy
= =C2=A0
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a22369cf-298d-4d72-76ba-08da10a7053c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Mar 2022 10:37:55.9465 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8/wDsOyp8SoEnRB1Hi6x3gwlIRt92JJ1PvRnRkpeeFzxE0tCdNmrW8zNdD99e+RzrskEiICoHK6iRaKCfLL8nQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR3PR07MB8158 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 10:38:05 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lde= r =0A= Sent: 25 March 2022 10:37=0A= =0A= Thanks Lada,=0A= =0A= this is useful input I think.=0A= =0A= Another thing that we experienced in some corners of the IETF is that=0A= IANA registries are often tied to specific protocols and it is=0A= sometimes tempting to reuse a registry for a sligthly different=0A= purpose. This can cause problems down the road when for example=0A= definitions stop to make sense for the protocol the registry was=0A= created for (i.e., they should move to deprecated or obsolete) but=0A= other uses of the registry would still need the definition.=0A= =0A= This is not really an YANG specific issue but more a general issue=0A= whenever people try to reuse existing registries. If there are many=0A= uses of a given registry, you may end up with many (sometimes=0A= overlapping) definitions out of which only a subset make really sense=0A= for a given use case. In other words, generalizing the use of an=0A= existing registry beyonds its original scope can cause serious=0A= problems down the road. Again, this is not really YANG specific, but=0A= it has shown up with YANGified registries.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I just fell over a twist to this. There is an IANA-maintained module of ad= dress family as enumerations. bgp-model reinvents part of this as YANG ide= ntity and at least one other WG has imported the bgp-model version into its= work.=0A= =0A= I have queried this on the IDR list but can imagine the response I will get= , along the lines of the issues in this thread:-(=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= /js=0A= =0A= On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 11:26:17AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:=0A= > Hi Med,=0A= >=0A= > here are my comments:=0A= >=0A= > YANG modules should be as tightly coupled as possible to the correspondin= g IANA registries. In an ideal world, YANG would simply have a statement fo= r using a registry directly. This is, however, not possible in the current = state of affairs.=0A= >=0A= > In particular, a separate module mirroring an IANA registry is almost alw= ays needed.=0A= >=0A= > Identities versus typedefs/enumerations: I think the text in sec. 4.11.1 = of RFC 8407 applies to IANA registries as well. I would only add that ident= ities are preferable if *distributed* extensibility is needed, i.e. if diff= erent parties are expected to define public and long-living entries on thei= r own.=0A= >=0A= > Identities could also be extremely useful if the registry entries are org= anized hierarchically, possibly including multiple inheritance.=0A= >=0A= > One caveat regarding identities: for reasons that are unclear to me, YANG= requires identity names (unlike enums) to be identifiers. That's why it is= not possible to use identities without workarounds e.g. for Media Types, w= here it would IMO make a lot of sense.=0A= >=0A= > Last paragraph in sec. 3:=0A= >=0A= > "Designers of IANA-maintained modules MAY supply the full Initial=0A= > version of the module in a specification document that registers the= =0A= > module or only a script to be used by IANA for generating the module= =0A= > (e.g., an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in Appendix A of [RFC9108])."=0A= >=0A= > The first option turned out to be no-go in the DNSOP WG during the prepar= ation of RFC 9108. The main objection was that, despite all warnings, imple= mentors would blindly use the initial revision published in an RFC even aft= er some entries become deprecated and might be potentially dangerous. It wa= s thus proposed to e.g. keep the initial module revision only in the I-D st= age and ask RFC Editor to delete it before publishing it as an RFC. Eventua= lly, the XSLT stylesheet as a template for the initial module revision was = acceptable to everyone and worked very well with IANA, too.=0A= >=0A= > Another advantage of the XSLT-based solution is that it allows for genera= ting an always up-to-date revision of the YANG module from the online XML r= epresentation of the IANA registry. As a proof of concept, I prepared XSLT = stylesheets for a dozen or so registries [1]. Although it works quite well,= I do admit that it would be a drudgery to cover the full scope of existing= IANA registries.=0A= >=0A= > Lada=0A= >=0A= > [1] https://github.com/llhotka/iana-yang=0A= >=0A= > writes:=0A= >=0A= > > Hi all,=0A= > >=0A= > > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of IANA-maintained = modules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope will ensure som= e consistency about how we are interacting with IANA registries. The goal i= s avoid transforming YANG modules (if not maintained by IANA) as another so= urce of information, which are likely to be out of sync.=0A= > >=0A= > > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D.=0A= > >=0A= > > Comments and suggestions are appreciated.=0A= > >=0A= > > Cheers,=0A= > > Med=0A= > >=0A= > > -----Message d'origine-----=0A= > > De : internet-drafts@ietf.org =0A= > > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 24 mars 2022 10:41=0A= > > =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET =0A= > > Objet : New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-regist= ries-00.txt=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > A new version of I-D, draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt=0A= > > has been successfully submitted by Mohamed Boucadair and posted to the = IETF repository.=0A= > >=0A= > > Name: draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries=0A= > > Revision: 00=0A= > > Title: Recommendations for Creating IANA-Maintained YANG M= odules=0A= > > Document date: 2022-03-24=0A= > > Group: Individual Submission=0A= > > Pages: 5=0A= > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netmod-= iana-registries-00.txt=0A= > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod= -iana-registries/=0A= > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-n= etmod-iana-registries=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > Abstract:=0A= > > This document provides a set of guidelines for YANG module authors= =0A= > > related to the design of IANA-maintained modules. These guidelines= =0A= > > are meant to leverage existing IANA registries and use YANG as just= =0A= > > another format to present the content of these registries.=0A= > >=0A= > > This document updates RFC 8407.=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > The IETF Secretariat=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > _______________________________________________________________________= __________________________________________________=0A= > >=0A= > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations conf= identielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=0A= > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler=0A= > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=0A= > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme= ou falsifie. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I would like your support to clarify the usage of 'parent-reference' in the= schema-mount RFC 8528. Let me take a simple example of a module 'profile-abc' that looks like this= : module: profile-abc +--rw profile-abc +--rw profile* [name] +--rw name string augment /if:interfaces/if:interface: +--rw profile-abc-ref? -> /profile-abc/profile/name Our NETCONF server implements a mount point, defined like this: module mount-point-example { ... container mount-point-example { list mount-point { key "name"; leaf name { type string; } container root { yangmnt:mount-point "root" { description "Root for example mount point."; } } } } We are planning on supporting the module 'profile-abc' in both the parent s= chema and the mounted schema: * In the parent schema, clients will be able to create entries in the 'prof= ile' list. * In the mounted schema, clients will be able to associate an interface wit= h a 'profile' created in the parent schema. In order to avoid clashes, our implementation will enforce that no 'profile= ' list entries will be created under the mount-point. For this mount-point, our NETCONF server will advertise parent-reference li= ke this: { "ietf-yang-schema-mount:schema-mounts": { "namespace": [ { "prefix": "pabc", "uri": "urn:example:profile-abc" }, ], "mount-point": [ { "module": "mount-point-example", "label": "root", "shared-schema": { "parent-reference": [ "/pabc:profile-abc/pabc:profile/pabc:name" ] } } ] } } My question is the following: Is the above implementation compliant with RFC8528? In other words, can the= same 'profile' list exists in the parent schema, which is accessible via "= parent-reference", and in the mounted schema, at the same time? Note that the dummy module 'profile-abc' is in reality a standard module th= at we cannot split in two parts. RFC 8528 mentions: "This document allows mounting of complete data models o= nly. Other specifications may extend this model by defining additional mech= anisms such as mounting sub-hierarchies of a module.". Such mechanisms are = not defined (yet). Regards, Yves --_000_AM0PR07MB54268BC423B5131CF4B76E0D891D9AM0PR07MB5426eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hello,

=  

= I would like your support to clarify the usage of 'parent-reference' in the= schema-mount RFC 8528.

=  

= Let me take a simple example of a module 'profile-abc' that looks like this= :

=  

=       module: profile-abc

=         +--rw profile-abc

=            +--rw profile* [nam= e]

        +--= rw name    string

=  

=       augment /if:interfaces/if:interface:

=         +--rw profile-abc-ref?   -&= gt; /profile-abc/profile/name

=  

= Our NETCONF server implements a mount point, defined like this:<= /span>

=  

=       module mount-point-example {

=       ...

=         container mount-point-example {<= /o:p>

=           list mount-point {

=              key &qu= ot;name";        

=         leaf name {

=           type string;

=         }

=         container root {

=              yangmnt= :mount-point "root" {

=              &n= bsp;  description

=              &n= bsp;    "Root for example mount point.";

=              } =        

=         }    &n= bsp;

=       }     

=     }

=  

= We are planning on supporting the module 'profile-abc' in both the parent s= chema and the mounted schema:

= * In the parent schema, clients will be able to create entries in the 'prof= ile' list.

= * In the mounted schema, clients will be able to associate an interface wit= h a 'profile' created in the parent schema.

=  

= In order to avoid clashes, our implementation will enforce that no 'profile= ' list entries will be created under the mount-point.

=  

= For this mount-point, our NETCONF server will advertise parent-reference li= ke this:

=  

=    {

=      "ietf-yang-schema-mount:schema-mounts": = {

=        "namespace": [

=          {

=              &q= uot;prefix": "pabc",

=              &q= uot;uri": "urn:example:profile-abc"

=          },

=        ],

=        "mount-point": [<= /span>

=          {

=            "module&q= uot;: "mount-point-example",

=            "label&qu= ot;: "root",

=              &q= uot;shared-schema": {

=             &nb= sp;  "parent-reference": [

=             &nb= sp;    "/pabc:profile-abc/pabc:profile/pabc:name"<= o:p>

=             &nb= sp;  ]

=              }<= o:p>

=          }

=        ]

=      }

=    }

=  

= My question is the following:

=  

= Is the above implementation compliant with RFC8528? In other words, can the= same 'profile' list exists in the parent schema, which is accessible via &= quot;parent-reference", and in the mounted schema, at the same time?

=  

= Note that the dummy module 'profile-abc' is in reality a standard module th= at we cannot split in two parts.

=  

= RFC 8528 mentions: "This document allows mounting of complete data mod= els only. Other specifications may extend this model by defining additional= mechanisms such as mounting sub-hierarchies of a module.". Such mechanisms are not defined (yet).

=  

= Regards,

= Yves

--_000_AM0PR07MB54268BC423B5131CF4B76E0D891D9AM0PR07MB5426eurp_-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 05:55:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66303A0C27 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 05:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DL5rm6bowRta for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 05:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0DE53A0C1D for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 05:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfedar23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 4KRt2z5ylFzBrVP; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:55:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1648472123; bh=jJp1N/1xVUor26rB5cNAhlaZOdggtccP5qaGWG+oGQI=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=PhRTHMbs/HDXGICiFwc2SBB78TtqJ43ckrRN4QZ/sFlgIvFymnG6j/2Ilh2ey+T/H r2LewUrif9ZyBVoS8khZ0ncx4Jepw/ahq1iUKuBft0i3qjToDJpZq964fWN0LZVJ/6 nSh3LMSMLJany23i4z1kjWKdHSqv/1tLNWGqauTfLuOSj9un15u4GOdfV95dclxay6 E76ElRgWE159Pmr6kPhZt2CEoZNJnjjlVDIG6lEZ/1FGmvbXyZxdfrK52u5cmdmk+4 93xCH9DeOBjQV6Imn8iSWUzsTQem3hW5Xr1SeFP9E9PSl8smn/DbLGgeVlSHmEgAC4 SZMSmP032gUmQ== From: To: tom petch , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHYP2NL4K5U4veAYE6maui2Fiq+26zOR+JQgAGe3YCAAANAgIAEtew2gAAUwLA= Content-Class: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:55:23 +0000 Message-ID: <25486_1648472123_6241B03B_25486_449_3_18762a204720497f8f3f64109c7aeccf@orange.com> References: <164811486213.31055.16978666706993858336@ietfa.amsl.com> <25673_1648115236_623C3E24_25673_395_1_b8104fec9cd14dd6a73a464b6aaf7ddb@orange.com> <87y20y8h12.fsf@nic.cz> <20220325103755.ri2wqzd3wa7pkpgr@anna> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SetDate=2022-03-28T11:48:29Z; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Method=Privileged; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_Name=unrestricted_parent.2; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_SiteId=90c7a20a-f34b-40bf-bc48-b9253b6f5d20; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ActionId=9d1c2b72-0aaf-4256-b8a7-e7cd58bddd0d; MSIP_Label_07222825-62ea-40f3-96b5-5375c07996e2_ContentBits=0 x-originating-ip: [10.115.26.50] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:55:31 -0000 Hi Tom,=20 This part from 8407 is worth to be considered: If an appropriate derived type exists in any standard module, such as [RFC6991], then it SHOULD be used instead of defining a new derived type. Unless I'm mistaken, the idr I-D defines a new identity afi-safi which is n= ot **directly** defined in RFC8294. However, I do think their design is sub= optimal as we can reuse the existing typedefs from RFC8294, but calling ind= ividually the afi and safi. Note that RFC4760 says the following: =3D=3D=3D=3D Address Family Identifier (AFI): .... Presently defined values for the Address Family Identifier field are specified in the IANA's Address Family Numbers registry [IANA-AF]. and=20 As specified in this document, the MP_REACH_NLRI and MP_UNREACH_NLRI attributes contain the Subsequence Address Family Identifier (SAFI) field. The SAFI name space is defined in this document. The IANA registered and maintains values for the SAFI namespace as follows: =3D=3D=3D Freezing afi-safis in an IETF-maintained module is indeed an example of des= igns that draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries is trying to avoid.=20=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: tom petch > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 28 mars 2022 12:38 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; > netmod@ietf.org; J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder university.de> > Objet=A0: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair- > netmod-iana-registries-00.txt >=20 > From: netmod on behalf of J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4l= der > > Sent: 25 March 2022 10:37 >=20 > Thanks Lada, >=20 > this is useful input I think. >=20 > Another thing that we experienced in some corners of the IETF is that > IANA registries are often tied to specific protocols and it is sometimes > tempting to reuse a registry for a sligthly different purpose. This can > cause problems down the road when for example definitions stop to make > sense for the protocol the registry was created for (i.e., they should > move to deprecated or obsolete) but other uses of the registry would > still need the definition. >=20 > This is not really an YANG specific issue but more a general issue > whenever people try to reuse existing registries. If there are many uses > of a given registry, you may end up with many (sometimes > overlapping) definitions out of which only a subset make really sense > for a given use case. In other words, generalizing the use of an > existing registry beyonds its original scope can cause serious problems > down the road. Again, this is not really YANG specific, but it has shown > up with YANGified registries. >=20 > >=20 > I just fell over a twist to this. There is an IANA-maintained module of > address family as enumerations. bgp-model reinvents part of this as > YANG identity and at least one other WG has imported the bgp-model > version into its work. >=20 > I have queried this on the IDR list but can imagine the response I will > get, along the lines of the issues in this thread:-( >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > /js >=20 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Mon Mar 28 11:05:41 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D233A177D for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQqWgILj0caK for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1132.google.com (mail-yw1-x1132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B82633A177C for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1132.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e64a6b20eeso158160357b3.3 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:05:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d0TYSwAKCj3UDtul7ideo8/Ofy143UreucYMyj5F0cQ=; b=Dbo4qOGF/u1zs6t4RywFN0cXNR+N152gv6ZJHS5/q75Ktv2GdYGY3DerQED4rg3qh+ KEXa9XxgXhA61FlF9xHD178gGgzxYakIgz7et5om+BUIz8lPwtqfbNVe21uV1iywsoRr 4UuiR+JXqX6Je1AQeVWSUXNxqztOEjIMr2pGk7a6iMcKtk2fMU2bQN32DhS7Xs3SjTRO LmwtWpfJVSrNM93WNXxxiQcr0hQvWxRRP9uF1p2wrINUqmt3OFZr+2Y7Nb4JssKG8odG hdO9poQC7VqoJAL1elPmgkkKX03mP5MJdJ8LNITaG21Nu7/f7fYuQoNbHqXpfzrNDgWF onag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d0TYSwAKCj3UDtul7ideo8/Ofy143UreucYMyj5F0cQ=; b=10muG5jZu7YD2f6phT6fIcv9KQcI+CtM8awDELHVy8cQQ9Q7KTNzFxST8VrZCKQ7sU aLSMQHWheSjibyXDpOEEDJ+gdkdrtP3zZ5AgBqfNstg2EXbefsNC/x6Io/Nw+1etDy/Q WKENaeY528dQfPCUDLOKx8JPi54rjzLo0wsdnFnBPVU1xqLH9ieyIF/Zfs/QTVMHGthy 8sACYkLrfrCArSIErWZk/osnKcYlcU8Tx5oWJxwPqfSvxhzlaGstN+U8hjRpacnjSk95 96Wj7LU74Aj0UM+g4yWgaD0QC7o96EHkjd5TDxovvbGovf9HWlT6bcnGEotqH0jfVp0g GCOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530SuJ9dUUqA5HwqQq5j/mmQspiCL2M+uiLCqLQnhDpeJiUm1A86 lCwjA24mw34uCX/A24tYpTyEIN9ZkdeiuqiI0xSWYg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxF1DLEzq8UxFGUX0fQ7odtWWHNCvWmnV5N4oXIENk9d7vy6bmD5Sz0K/ZoIBvWXTi1HMvhXTbIusMyKVn35W8= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e80e:0:b0:2e5:ba68:80bc with SMTP id r14-20020a0de80e000000b002e5ba6880bcmr26966534ywe.350.1648490729827; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:05:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164811486213.31055.16978666706993858336@ietfa.amsl.com> <25673_1648115236_623C3E24_25673_395_1_b8104fec9cd14dd6a73a464b6aaf7ddb@orange.com> <87y20y8h12.fsf@nic.cz> <10835_1648205126_623D9D46_10835_21_2_b0e83ac2c589431d83b89b636bcf8f56@orange.com> <87sfr686yc.fsf@nic.cz> <28666_1648220640_623DD9DF_28666_74_1_65bdc9f8b5d647d8b3272010baf8f7a5@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <28666_1648220640_623DD9DF_28666_74_1_65bdc9f8b5d647d8b3272010baf8f7a5@orange.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:05:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , =?UTF-8?B?SsO8cmdlbiBTY2jDtm53w6RsZGVy?= , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e03ab05db4b2892" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-00.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 18:05:38 -0000 --0000000000005e03ab05db4b2892 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I read the -02 draft. It does not conflict with RFC 8407. I don't think sec 3, para 3 is really needed, but the guideline to document the reasoning behind using enum vs. identity is more relevant for IANA modules than other modules. Andy On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 8:05 AM wrote: > Re-, > > Thanks, Lada. > > I updated the draft accordingly + reflected the interpretation shared by > J=C3=BCrgen. > > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries-02= .txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registries/ > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registr= ies > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-boucadair-netmod-iana-registrie= s-02 > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Ladislav Lhotka > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 25 mars 2022 15:04 > > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; > > netmod@ietf.org > > Objet : RE: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair- > > netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > > > writes: > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > Thank you for the comments. > > > > > > Pleases see inline. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > >> -----Message d'origine----- > > >> De : Ladislav Lhotka Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi= 25 > > >> mars 2022 11:26 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET > > >> ; netmod@ietf.org Objet : Re: [netmod] > > >> TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair- > > >> netmod-iana-registries-00.txt > > >> > > >> Hi Med, > > >> > > >> here are my comments: > > >> > > >> YANG modules should be as tightly coupled as possible to the > > >> corresponding IANA registries. In an ideal world, YANG would simply > > >> have a statement for using a registry directly. This is, however, no= t > > >> possible in the current state of affairs. > > >> > > >> In particular, a separate module mirroring an IANA registry is almos= t > > >> always needed. > > >> > > >> Identities versus typedefs/enumerations: I think the text in sec. > > >> 4.11.1 of RFC 8407 applies to IANA registries as well. I would only > > >> add that identities are preferable if *distributed* extensibility is > > needed, i.e. > > >> if different parties are expected to define public and long-living > > >> entries on their own. > > > > > > [Med] The current text in 8407 seems to just reason about fixed value= s > > > AND single maintainers. What I'm hearing from both you and Jurgen is > > > that this is not an update. I won't make a fixation on that and will > > > proceed with updating the text to reflect the interpretation you > > > shared. Thank you. > > > > > >> > > >> Identities could also be extremely useful if the registry entries ar= e > > >> organized hierarchically, possibly including multiple inheritance. > > > > > > [Med] Do you think we should include some text in the draft to call > > > out this aspect? > > > > Possibly, this is something that enumerations cannot model. > > > > > >> > > >> One caveat regarding identities: for reasons that are unclear to me, > > >> YANG requires identity names (unlike enums) to be identifiers. That'= s > > >> why it is not possible to use identities without workarounds e.g. fo= r > > >> Media Types, where it would IMO make a lot of sense. > > >> > > >> Last paragraph in sec. 3: > > >> > > >> "Designers of IANA-maintained modules MAY supply the full Initial > > >> version of the module in a specification document that registers > > the > > >> module or only a script to be used by IANA for generating the > > module > > >> (e.g., an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in Appendix A of [RFC9108])." > > >> > > >> The first option turned out to be no-go in the DNSOP WG during the > > >> preparation of RFC 9108. The main objection was that, despite all > > >> warnings, implementors would blindly use the initial revision > > >> published in an RFC even after some entries become deprecated and > > >> might be potentially dangerous. It was thus proposed to e.g. keep th= e > > >> initial module revision only in the I-D stage and ask RFC Editor to > > >> delete it before publishing it as an RFC. Eventually, the XSLT > > >> stylesheet as a template for the initial module revision was > > >> acceptable to everyone and worked very well with IANA, too. > > >> > > > > > > [Med] Thanks for the feedback. The proposed guideline is to let the > > designers be aware of both approaches, decide based on their specific > > context, and then include a justification for their choice. > > > > Yes, I suspect that different WGs may have different opinions on this. > > > > > > > >> Another advantage of the XSLT-based solution is that it allows for > > >> generating an always up-to-date revision of the YANG module from the > > >> online XML representation of the IANA registry. > > > > > > [Med] Agree. I will add a note about this. > > > > > > As a proof of concept, I > > >> prepared XSLT stylesheets for a dozen or so registries [1]. Although > > >> it works quite well, I do admit that it would be a drudgery to cover > > >> the full scope of existing IANA registries. > > >> > > >> Lada > > >> > > >> [1] https://github.com/llhotka/iana-yang > > >> > > > > > > [Med] Will add a pointer to this repo. Thanks. > > > > Thanks, Lada > > > > > > > >> writes: > > >> > > >> > Hi all, > > >> > > > >> > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of > > >> > IANA-maintained > > >> modules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope will > > >> ensure some consistency about how we are interacting with IANA > > >> registries. The goal is avoid transforming YANG modules (if not > > >> maintained by IANA) as another source of information, which are > > likely to be out of sync. > > >> > > > >> > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D. > > >> > > > >> > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. > > >> > > > >> > Cheers, > > >> > Med > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez > recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u > falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n > modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000005e03ab05db4b2892 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I read the -02 draft.
It does not conflict with RFC 8407.
I don't think sec= 3, para 3 is really needed, but the guideline to document the
re= asoning behind using enum vs. identity is more relevant for IANA modules th= an other modules.


Andy

On Fri, Mar 25, 202= 2 at 8:05 AM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
Re-,

Thanks, Lada.

I updated the draft accordingly + reflected the interpretation shared by J= =C3=BCrgen.

URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-boucadair-netm= od-iana-registries-02.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-netmod-iana-r= egistries/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-boucadair-netmod-ia= na-registries
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-boucadair-= netmod-iana-registries-02

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=C2=A0: Ladislav Lhotka <ladislav.lhotka@nic.cz>
> Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: vendredi 25 mars 2022 15:04
> =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com&= gt;;
> netmod@ietf.org
> Objet=C2=A0: RE: [netmod] TR: New Version Notification for draft-bouca= dair-
> netmod-iana-registries-00.txt
>
> <= mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> writes:
>
> > Hi Lada,
> >
> > Thank you for the comments.
> >
> > Pleases see inline.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De=C2=A0: Ladislav Lhotka <ladislav.lhotka@nic.cz> Envoy=C3=A9=C2= =A0: vendredi 25
> >> mars 2022 11:26 =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET
> >> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; netmod@ietf.org Objet=C2=A0: Re: [netmod]
> >> TR: New Version Notification for draft-boucadair-
> >> netmod-iana-registries-00.txt
> >>
> >> Hi Med,
> >>
> >> here are my comments:
> >>
> >> YANG modules should be as tightly coupled as possible to the<= br> > >> corresponding IANA registries. In an ideal world, YANG would = simply
> >> have a statement for using a registry directly. This is, howe= ver, not
> >> possible in the current state of affairs.
> >>
> >> In particular, a separate module mirroring an IANA registry i= s almost
> >> always needed.
> >>
> >> Identities versus typedefs/enumerations: I think the text in = sec.
> >> 4.11.1 of RFC 8407 applies to IANA registries as well. I woul= d only
> >> add that identities are preferable if *distributed* extensibi= lity is
> needed, i.e.
> >> if different parties are expected to define public and long-l= iving
> >> entries on their own.
> >
> > [Med] The current text in 8407 seems to just reason about fixed v= alues
> > AND single maintainers. What I'm hearing from both you and Ju= rgen is
> > that this is not an update. I won't make a fixation on that a= nd will
> > proceed with updating the text to reflect the interpretation you<= br> > > shared. Thank you.
> >
> >>
> >> Identities could also be extremely useful if the registry ent= ries are
> >> organized hierarchically, possibly including multiple inherit= ance.
> >
> > [Med] Do you think we should include some text in the draft to ca= ll
> > out this aspect?
>
> Possibly, this is something that enumerations cannot model.
> >
> >>
> >> One caveat regarding identities: for reasons that are unclear= to me,
> >> YANG requires identity names (unlike enums) to be identifiers= . That's
> >> why it is not possible to use identities without workarounds = e.g. for
> >> Media Types, where it would IMO make a lot of sense.
> >>
> >> Last paragraph in sec. 3:
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Designers of IANA-maintained modules MAY s= upply the full Initial
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 version of the module in a specification documen= t that registers
> the
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 module or only a script to be used by IANA for g= enerating the
> module
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (e.g., an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in Appendix A of [= RFC9108])."
> >>
> >> The first option turned out to be no-go in the DNSOP WG durin= g the
> >> preparation of RFC 9108. The main objection was that, despite= all
> >> warnings, implementors would blindly use the initial revision=
> >> published in an RFC even after some entries become deprecated= and
> >> might be potentially dangerous. It was thus proposed to e.g. = keep the
> >> initial module revision only in the I-D stage and ask RFC Edi= tor to
> >> delete it before publishing it as an RFC. Eventually, the XSL= T
> >> stylesheet as a template for the initial module revision was<= br> > >> acceptable to everyone and worked very well with IANA, too. > >>
> >
> > [Med] Thanks for the feedback. The proposed guideline is to let t= he
> designers be aware of both approaches, decide based on their specific<= br> > context, and then include a justification for their choice.
>
> Yes, I suspect that different WGs may have different opinions on this.=
>
> >
> >> Another advantage of the XSLT-based solution is that it allow= s for
> >> generating an always up-to-date revision of the YANG module f= rom the
> >> online XML representation of the IANA registry.
> >
> > [Med] Agree. I will add a note about this.
> >
> >=C2=A0 As a proof of concept, I
> >> prepared XSLT stylesheets for a dozen or so registries [1]. A= lthough
> >> it works quite well, I do admit that it would be a drudgery t= o cover
> >> the full scope of existing IANA registries.
> >>
> >> Lada
> >>
> >> [1] https://github.com/llhotka/iana-yang
> >>
> >
> > [Med] Will add a pointer to this repo. Thanks.
>
> Thanks, Lada
>
> >
> >> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > Hi all,
> >> >
> >> > We had in alto wg a discussion about consistent use of > >> > IANA-maintained
> >> modules. This document provides some guidelines that I hope w= ill
> >> ensure some consistency about how we are interacting with IAN= A
> >> registries. The goal is avoid transforming YANG modules (if n= ot
> >> maintained by IANA) as another source of information, which a= re
> likely to be out of sync.
> >> >
> >> > Some more details/context are provided in the I-D.
> >> >
> >> > Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> > Med
> >> >

___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

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[172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4KSJxX1VTqz67sgR for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:07:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from kwepemm600017.china.huawei.com (7.193.23.234) by fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2375.24; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:09:43 +0200 Received: from kwepemm600017.china.huawei.com (7.193.23.234) by kwepemm600017.china.huawei.com (7.193.23.234) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.21; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:09:41 +0800 Received: from kwepemm600017.china.huawei.com ([7.193.23.234]) by kwepemm600017.china.huawei.com ([7.193.23.234]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.021; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:09:41 +0800 From: "maqiufang (A)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= CC: NetMod WG Thread-Topic: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 Thread-Index: AdhDM4+5OxgbBaqeSH6xgBaPQU/BEQ== Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 06:09:41 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.100.87] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b7e941e8f8b7408aa2436f7f92043162huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 06:10:02 -0000 --_000_b7e941e8f8b7408aa2436f7f92043162huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Balazs, Thanks for your thorough review and valuable comments! To be brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I think the= re are still a couple of comments that need further discussion, like: =B7 Terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes= in different datastores(e.g., system and running). =B7 Should "copy-config" operation also be augmented to support "re= solve-system" parameter? =B7 The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the "resolve-= system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client. =B7 Will the update of be reflected into ? If not= , will this cause an invalid datastore? Please also see my detailed reply inline. Best Regards, Qiufang From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Lengyel Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:47 AM To: 'netmod@ietf.org' > Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 Hello, I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comments questions are belo= w. Regards Balazs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D General) I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot impro= vements. The term system-configuration is used confusingly. Does system-configuration reside in the datastore only or can it reside in the datastore too? If system-configuration is copied by the client (+) into the datastore is it still system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the syste= m. [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. System configuration is provided by the device in datastore, thoug= h I think it may also be present in with origin=3D"system". If it is copied/pasted into , the copied configuration in should not be called as "system configuration". But I think it's okay to say something like "copy system configuration into= ", the object to be copied is system configuration which is defin= ed in . I will see how to make this clearer in the next version. Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean a specific data node IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (according to the path in the data tree) in different datastores need to be referenced separately. [Qiufang]Cross-datastores references is not the intention here. Any suggestions to make it clear or what does the terminology looks like in= your mind? Does the solution allow conditional system configuration? (E.g., if the client creates an OSPF interface the system inserts a child = leaf into it) [Qiufang] Yes, it does. System configurations which are provided and activa= ted based on specific conditions being met in a system, it is defined as "C= onditionally-Active system configuration". https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02.txt#se= ction-2.2 describes this kind of system configuration. 1.1) If system shares the same schema as running that would force it to populate mandatory nodes. That might be a problem. State that mandatory or min-elements might not be enforced in . [Qiufang] I think that mandatory or min/max-elements nodes should be enforc= ed in . There should be no exceptions. What's the problem that you think might happen? 1.3) "client may overwrite values of configurations defined in " However it also states: The contents of datastore are read-only These seem to contradict. Please clarify. [Qiufang]It is confusing, indeed. When it says the contents of dat= astore are read-only, I mean is a read-only datastore, e.g., an operation towards should be refused. But the client c= an overwrite values of configurations defined in by writing new va= lues in , which will take precedence over initial values set by th= e system. How about this: OLD:" client may overwrite values of configurations defined in " NEW:"client may overwrite values of configurations defined in by c= onfiguring the intended values in ." 1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-config might also need system configured items. It should be mentioned that the sa= me "resolution" is also needed after a node-restart. [Qiufang] Are you suggesting to augment copy-config with "resolve-system" p= arameter also? This operation is used to replace the target configuration, so you also wan= t the server to write missing referenced system nodes automatically after t= he full replacement. But is this still a "copy-config"? Copy usually means the same to me. Do yo= u have any use cases in your mind? I think we need further discussion, or let's see if anyone has any other co= mments on this. What does populate mean? Is it the same as "copy from system to running" ? = If yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as specific. [Qiufang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it. 2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms provided, activated, ap= plied. I am not sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item present in the datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-data on will I receive not-applied data nodes? [Qiufang] This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these terms,= if they are not defined in NMDA. A data item will be present in once it is provided by the system, = regardless of whether it is applied. Note that NMDA already defines the term "applied configuration", which is c= onfiguration that is actively in use by a device. "Activated" should be removed and replaced with "applied". What is the difference between an applied and an activated data node and an applied but not activated data node? [Qiufang]I think there is no difference, both mean that the configuration i= s in use by a server. Or maybe you want to ask what is the difference betwe= en a generated and applied data node and an generated but not applied data = node? Regardless it is applied immediately when it's generated, once system= configuration is generated, it will appear in . System configurati= on that are not applied yet is unlikely to appear in , but it = may also depend on the device implementation. I would rather see terminology like: - is present in the datastore - is not yet present in the datastore, but the system will create = it in the datastore when a condition is fulfilled. [Qiufang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next version. How is it defined for specific schema nodes which kind of system-data it is= ? Free English text? Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough if the server knows th= is? [Qiufang] Current draft doesn't define any specific schema to indicate whic= h kind of system-data it is. Although this work tries to explore all different kinds of system configura= tion, I don't see a compelling reason to define a dedicated schema to ident= ify each kind. But I think that the client can understand each kind of system configuratio= n by some ways, e.g., Configuration which is only present in and n= ot is inactive-until-referenced, and configuration which is = generated and present in when a specific feature is enabled is con= ditionally-active system configuration. 2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the functionality is licensed an= d the license key is inserted? [Qiufang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active system configu= ration, one for hardware-related resource condition driven, and the other f= or software-related functionality resource driven. Are you saying that QoS is not a good example? There used to be some discus= sion, I think we all agree that when QoS feature is enabled, QoS related sy= stem configuration will be generated. But licensing a functionality could a= lso be the case from my perspective. "I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. create a new qo= s policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created inside that= policy)." https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vkcgf9J6dJU/ https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmbQX4yPwWCs/ 3.1) is also read-only so why is that better to store deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config originated data cannot be delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that true both for explicit NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system? [Qiufang]I believe that this was discussed both on the mail list and at NET= MOD's interim meeting last October. A client can configure/override a system-instantiated object in , = it can also delete it from ( and I agree with you that once it's p= resent in we cannot call it "system configuration" actually, and = the value initialized by the system is overwritten even it's the same value= ). But anyway the contents defined in will be merged into = and . Therefore there is no way to delete a system configurati= on which is defined in . But can be used to initialize , and once it's de= leted from , it is totally deleted from the device. And to answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in = cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, it's true both for exp= licit copy and copy due to resolve-system parameter. 3.2) If something was populated/copied over to running/candidate will/shoul= d any changed system values be copied over again thereby updating the running/candidate datastores? Can this result in the running becoming invalid? [Qiufang]Are you asking will any changes in be reflected into /? That's a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don't think that will= result in becoming invalid, since the contents in keep= unchanged. On the contrary, I think if the update being reflected into MAY c= ause to be invalid. I don't think all the update in datastore should be reflected into= , e.g., an intentional override operation should not care the upd= ated system-instantiated leaf instance value. Since this document defines a datastore, the client can use YANG n= otification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect the upda= te into by itself if needed. Does this make sense? 4.1) You write "The client may reference nodes defined in , overwrite values of configurations defined in " IMHO the data nodes in and are 2 different things even if they reside on the same path in the data tree. You need to find terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in differen= t datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I need to guess which datastore you mean. I think this guessing process might hide problems. Do you mean here: "The client may reference nodes defined in if th= ey are copied into / as a result of an explicit copy or resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a data node in running and referencing a data node in (even if they share the same address in the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think you want to create a reference that point between datastores. Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data nodes that were created by copying from the datastore." [Qiufang] Maybe I've caused some confusion. Forget the datastore for the moment. The client usually has the de= sire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of system conf= igurations, right? The datastore only contains those which are actively in use, = there is no standard mechanism for the client to see what system configurat= ion is available in a server. is defined as a standard mechanism to allow the client to retrieve= system configuration. So that it can reference/overwrite system configurat= ion, by the client writing configuration to that overrides/copies= the system configuration in . is only defined to retrieve available system configuration. " MAY overwrite and/or extend " this means that the data nodes in system are modified although they are readOnly. Is this what you mean? Clarify! [Qiufang] itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification (e.g.,= ) towards datastore should be rejected. But this doesn't mean there is no way to overwrite/extend system configurat= ion. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting and addition. I will see how to make it clear in the next version. "Note that only aware clients copy referenced system nodes from " How does the server know if the client is system-aware? It would be better = to state something like: 'In order for the system configuration to affect validation the client need= s to either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy system configura= tion into running' [Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says something similar to your proposal. Sec4.1:" Clients MUST either explicitly configure system-defined nodes in or use the "resolve-system" parameter." Last para: The server has no way to know if the client is system aware. Onc= e the data nodes are copied into there is no need to say more. [Qiufang] There is no need for the server to understand if the client is aware. But I'll think it important to state in the draft that the copied configura= tion driven by the "resolve-system" will also be returned in a read back of= datastore, and this behavior also applies to legacy clients, to = avoid any NBC issues. 4.2 "If the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client." I very strongly OBJECT. - It is a bad idea. - This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG. - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability to modify . Th= ey have data nodes where it is stated that list entries are not created by the= client. - This would need a revision 2 of YANG. - It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work around it. The system instantiates an onboard client to do the changes AND the system prohibits the change for other clients. However this is just a more complicated way of stating that the system itse= lf modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world more complicated. [Qiufang]When we first start this work, a lot of folks agree that clients w= ill benefit from a server which will not do anything the client doesn't exp= licitly ask for. We usually want a read-back of contains only what was explicitly = sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the objectives stated in t= he draft. But I've seen your points here. Let's see if there is any other comments or= suggestions. Otherwise I'd prefer to change this with a recommendation beh= avior. 4.3 Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you configure something in running it becomes part of running independent of this draft. [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. These can be removed. Mention that the system itself can also copy over parts or the complete system configuration into running. [Qiufang] Sure, will do, thanks! 4.4 In some cases, a server may allow some parts of system configuration to be modified. List keys in system configuration can't be changed by a client, but other descendant nodes in a list entry may be modifiable or non-modifiable. This contradicts the statement that the datastore is readOnly. [Qiufang] See my clarification above, will see how to refine this statement= . "Client configuration statements in take precedence over system configuration nodes in " Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a subchapter, there should= be a separate chapter about merging running and system into intended, stating = that running has precedence. This a tier 1 important statement ! There could be some interesting corner cases. [Qiufang] Okay, noted. Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is it there is l= ost, so terms like "client configuration" are hard to understand. That sounds mo= re like a use-case than a rule. [Qiufang] Sure, I will just say "configuration defined in ". Is th= is better? "While modifying (overriding) system configuration nodes may be supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node." Once the node is in the datastore if it is not mandatory it is possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it was the client that cop= ied the configuration into ? Is the client forbidden to remove somethi= ng that it created itself? I don't think so. [Qiufang] No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it creat= ed itself. But even the node is removed from , what's defined in dat= astore can still be merged into and applied by the device. Thus there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node from th= e device's perspective. Make sense? 5. "datastore does not have to persist across reboots." 'I would say: The content of the datastore is removed at reboot and re-created by the system with the same or changed content.' IMHO it is important to state that there will be some reasonable content in= the datastore even if it might have changed. [Qiufang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that reboots will cau= se the contents of to be lost. I did not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause conte= nts change in the datastore after re-loading/re-creating. But this= is obviously true from my perspective. 7.1 "Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if the RESTCONF server implements the "resolve-system" parameter?" Make it a capability in the hello message like with-defaults. [Qiufang] I am thinking that maybe no need to define a capability identifie= r, and YANG library can also help for RESTCONF client. RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUST support the datastore and MUST implement the ietf-yang-library module. It also states: " A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG modules the server supports by reading the YANG library information from the operational state datastore." Make sense? 7.2 The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be inside = the element. [Qiufang] Good catch! I've fixed in my local version. Thanks, Balazs. --_000_b7e941e8f8b7408aa2436f7f92043162huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, B= alazs,

Thank= s for your thorough review and valuable comments!

To be= brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I think there ar= e still a couple of comments that need further discussion, like:<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:red">

=B7         Terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in diffe= rent datastores(e.g., system and running).

=B7         Should “copy-config” operation also be augmented to support = “resolve-system” parameter?

=B7         The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the "resolve-syst= em" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify &= lt;running> in any way not specified by the client.

=B7         Will the update of <system> be reflected into <running>? If = not, will this cause an invalid <running> datastore?

 

Pleas= e also see my detailed reply inline.

=  

Best = Regards,

Qiufa= ng

From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Lengyel
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:47 AM
To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@= ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02

 

Hello,

I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comm= ents questions are below.

Regards Balazs

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

General)

I think this work is important and valuable, but it = needs quite a lot improvements.

 

The term system-configuration is used confusingly. D= oes

system-configuration reside in the <system> da= tastore only or can it

reside in the <running> datastore too? If syst= em-configuration is copied by

the client (<get-data>+<edit-config>= ) into the <running> datastore is it

still system-configuration? It is set by the client = this time not the system.

[Qiuf= ang] Yes, I agree.

Syste= m configuration is provided by the device in <system> datastore, thou= gh I think it may also be present in <operational> with origin=3DR= 21;system”.

If it= is copied/pasted into <running>, the copied configuration in <run= ning> should not be called as “system configuration”.

But I= think it’s okay to say something like “copy system configurati= on into <running>”, the object to be copied is system configura= tion which is defined in <system>.

I wil= l see how to make this clearer in the next version.

Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean= a specific data node

IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (accordi= ng to the path in the

data tree) in different datastores need to be refere= nced separately.

[Qiufang]Cross-datasto= res references is not the intention here.

Any suggestions to mak= e it clear or what does the terminology looks like in your mind?=

=  

Does the solution allow conditional system configura= tion?

(E.g.,  if the client creates an OSPF interface= the system inserts a child leaf into it)

[Qiufang] Yes, it does= . System configurations which are provided and activated based on specific = conditions being met in a system, it is defined as “Conditionally-Act= ive system configuration”.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02.txt#section-2.2 describes this kind of system configuration.

=  

1.1) If system shares the same schema as running tha= t would force it to

populate mandatory nodes.  That might be a prob= lem.

State that mandatory or min-elements might not be en= forced in <system>.

[Qiufang] I think that= mandatory or min/max-elements nodes should be enforced in <system>. = There should be no exceptions.

What’s the probl= em that you think might happen?

1.3) “client may overwrite values of configura= tions defined in <system>”

However it also states: The contents of <system&g= t; datastore are read-only

These seem to contradict. Please clarify.=

[Qiufang]It is confusi= ng, indeed. When it says the contents of <system> datastore are read-= only, I mean <system> is a read-only datastore, e.g., an <edit-con= fig> operation towards <system> should be refused.  But the client can overwrite values of configurations defined in <syste= m> by writing new values in <running>, which will take precedence = over initial values set by the system.

How about this:

OLD:” cli= ent may overwrite values of configurations defined in <system>”

NEW:“clie= nt may overwrite values of configurations defined in <system> by configuring the intended values in <running>= ;.”

 

1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-con= fig

might also need system configured items. It should b= e mentioned that the same

"resolution" is also needed after a node-r= estart.

[Qiufang] Are you sugg= esting to augment copy-config with “resolve-system” parameter a= lso?

This = operation is used to replace the target configuration, so you also want the= server to write missing referenced system nodes automatically after the fu= ll replacement.

But i= s this still a “copy-config”? Copy usually means the same to me= . Do you have any use cases in your mind?

I thi= nk we need further discussion, or let’s see if anyone has any other c= omments on this.

&= nbsp;

What does populate mean? Is it the same as "cop= y from system to running" ? If

yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as = specific.

[Qiuf= ang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it.

 

2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms = provided, activated, applied. I am not

sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item pres= ent in the <system>

datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-= data on <system>

will I receive not-applied data nodes?

[Qiuf= ang] This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these terms, if t= hey are not defined in NMDA.

A dat= a item will be present in <system> once it is provided by the system,= regardless of whether it is applied.

Note = that NMDA already defines the term “applied configuration”, whi= ch is configuration that is actively in use by a device.<= /p>

̶= 0;Activated” should be removed and replaced with “applied”= ;.

What is the difference between an applied and an act= ivated data node and an

applied but not activated data node?

[Qiuf= ang]I think there is no difference, both mean that the configuration is in = use by a server. Or maybe you want to ask what is the difference between a = generated and applied data node and an generated but not applied data node? Regardless it is applied immediate= ly when it’s generated, once system configuration is generated, it wi= ll appear in <system>. System configuration that are not applied yet = is unlikely to appear in <operational>, but it may also depend on the device implementation.

I would rather see terminology like:

- is present in the <system> datastore

- is not yet present in the <system> datastore= , but the system will create it

in the <system> datastore when a condition is = fulfilled.

[Qiuf= ang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next version.

How is it defined for specific schema nodes which ki= nd of system-data it is ?

Free English text?

Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough= if the server knows this?

[Qiuf= ang] Current draft doesn’t define any specific schema to indicate whi= ch kind of system-data it is.

Altho= ugh this work tries to explore all different kinds of system configuration,= I don’t see a compelling reason to define a dedicated schema to iden= tify each kind.

But I= think that the client can understand each kind of system configuration by = some ways, e.g., Configuration which is only present in <system> and = not <operational> is  inactive-until-referenced, and configuration which is generated and present in <system> when a = specific feature is enabled is conditionally-active system configuration.

2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the funct= ionality is licensed and

the license key is inserted?

[Qiuf= ang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active system configuratio= n, one for hardware-related resource condition driven, and the other for so= ftware-related functionality resource driven. 

Are you saying that QoS is n=
ot a good example? There used to be some discussion, I think we all agree t=
hat when QoS feature is enabled, QoS related system configuration will be g=
enerated. But licensing a functionality could also be the case from my pers=
pective. 
“I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. cre=
ate a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created=
 inside that policy).”

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vkcgf9J6= dJU/

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmbQX4yPw= WCs/    

3.1) <factory-default> is also read-only so wh= y is that better to store

deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config ori= ginated data cannot be

delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that= true both for explicit

NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system?<= o:p>

[Qiuf= ang]I believe that this was discussed both on the mail list and at NETMOD's= interim meeting last October.

A cli= ent can configure/override a system-instantiated object in <running>,= it can also delete it from <running>( and I agree with you that once= it’s present in <running> we cannot call it “system configuration” actually, and the value initialized by the system is overwritten even it’s the same= value).

But a= nyway the contents defined in <system> will be merged into <intend= ed> and <operational>. Therefore there is no way to delete a syste= m configuration which is defined in <system>.

But &= lt;factory-default> can be used to initialize <running>, and once = it’s deleted from <running>, it is totally deleted from the dev= ice.

And t= o answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in <system>= cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, it’s true both = for explicit copy and copy due to resolve-system parameter.

3.2) If something was populated/copied over to runni= ng/candidate will/should

any changed system values be copied over again there= by updating the

running/candidate datastores?

Can this result in the running becoming invalid?

[Qiuf= ang]Are you asking will any changes in <system> be reflected into <= ;running>/<candidate>?

That&= #8217;s a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don’t think th= at will result in <running> becoming invalid, since the contents in &= lt;running> keep unchanged.

On th= e contrary, I think if the update being reflected into <running> MAY = cause <running> to be invalid.

I don= ’t think all the update in <system> datastore should be reflect= ed into <running>, e.g., an intentional override operation should not= care the updated system-instantiated leaf instance value.

Since= this document defines a <system> datastore, the client can use YANG = notification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect the upd= ate into <running> by itself if needed. Does this make sense?

=  

4.1)  You write

"The client may reference nodes defined in <= system>, overwrite values

   of configurations defined in <system= >"

IMHO the data nodes in <running> and <syste= m> are 2 different things even

if they reside on the same path in the data tree. Yo= u need to find

terminology to differentiate between the same(-path)= data nodes in different

datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I = need to guess which

datastore you mean. I think this guessing process mi= ght hide problems.

Do you mean here: "The client may reference nod= es defined in <system> if they are

copied into <running>/<candidate> as a r= esult of an explicit copy or

resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a= data node in running and

referencing a data node in <system> (even if t= hey share the same address in

the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think = you want to create a

reference that point between datastores.<= /p>

Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data= nodes that were created by

copying from the <system> datastore."

[Qiuf= ang] Maybe I’ve caused some confusion.

Forge= t the <system> datastore for the moment. The client usually has the d= esire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of system con= figurations, right?

The &= lt;operational> datastore only contains those which are actively in use,= there is no standard mechanism for the client to see what system configura= tion is available in a server.

<s= ystem> is defined as a standard mechanism to allow the client to retriev= e system configuration. So that it can reference/overwrite system configura= tion, by the client writing configuration to <running> that overrides/copies the system configuration in <s= ystem>.

<s= ystem> is only defined to retrieve available system configuration.

"<running> MAY overwrite and/or extend &l= t;system>" this means that the

data nodes in system are modified although they are = readOnly.

Is this what you mean? Clarify!

[Qiuf= ang] <system> itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification (e.g.= , <edit-config>) towards <system> datastore should be rejected.=

But t= his doesn’t mean there is no way to overwrite/extend system configura= tion. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting and addition.

I wil= l see how to make it clear in the next version.

"Note that only <system> aware clients co= py

   referenced system nodes from <system= >"

How does the server know if the client is system-awa= re? It would be better to

state something like:

'In order for the system configuration to affect val= idation the client needs to

either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitl= y copy system configuration

into running'

[Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says something similar =
to your proposal. 
Sec4.1:” Clien=
ts MUST either
   explicitly configure system-d=
efined nodes in <running> or use the
   "resolve-system" pa=
rameter.”
 

Last para: The server has no way to know if the clie= nt is system aware. Once

the data nodes are copied into <running> there= is no need to say more.

[Qiuf= ang] There is no need for the server to understand if the client is <sys= tem> aware.

But I= ’ll think it important to state in the draft that the copied configur= ation driven by the “resolve-system” will also be returned in a= read back of <running> datastore, and this behavior also applies to legacy clients, to avoid any NBC issues.

4.2

"If the "resolve-system" parameter is= not given by the client, the server

   MUST NOT modify <running> in any = way not specified by the client."

I very strongly OBJECT.

- It is a bad idea.

- This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG.

- Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability = to modify <running>. They

have data nodes where it is stated that list entries= are not created by the client.

- This would need a revision 2 of YANG.

- It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to = work around it.

The system instantiates an onboard client to do the = changes AND the system

prohibits the change for other clients.

However this is just a more complicated way of stati= ng that the system itself

modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world= more complicated.

[Qiuf= ang]When we first start this work, a lot of folks agree that clients will b= enefit from a server which will not do anything the client doesn’t ex= plicitly ask for.

We us= ually want a read-back of <running> contains only what was explicitly= sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the objectives stated in = the draft.

But I= ’ve seen your points here. Let’s see if there is any other comm= ents or suggestions. Otherwise I’d prefer to change this with a recom= mendation behavior.

4.3

Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not = needed. If you configure

something in running it becomes part of running inde= pendent of this draft.

[Qiuf= ang] Yes, I agree. These can be removed.

Mention that the system itself  can also copy o= ver parts or the complete

system configuration into running.

[Qiuf= ang] Sure, will do, thanks!

4.4

In some cases, a server may allow some parts of syst= em configuration

   to be modified.  List keys in syst= em configuration can't be changed

   by a client, but other descendant nodes= in a list entry may be

   modifiable or non-modifiable.

  

 This contradicts the statement that the <sy= stem> datastore is readOnly.

[Qiuf= ang] See my clarification above, will see how to refine this statement.

"Client configuration statements in <running= > take precedence over system

configuration nodes in <system>"

 

Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a s= ubchapter, there should be

a separate chapter about merging running and system = into intended, stating that running has precedence.

This a tier 1 important statement !

There could be some interesting corner cases.

[Qiuf= ang] Okay, noted.

Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge abo= ut why is it there is lost,

so terms like "client configuration" are h= ard to understand. That sounds more

like a use-case than a rule.

[Qiuf= ang] Sure, I will just say “configuration defined in <running>&= #8221;. Is this better?

 

"While modifying (overriding) system configurat= ion nodes may be

   supported by a server, there is no mech= anism for deleting a system

   configuration node."

  

Once the node is in the <running> datastore if= it is not mandatory it is

possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it = was the client that copied

the configuration into <running>? Is the clien= t forbidden to remove something

that it created itself? I don't think so.=

[Qiuf= ang] No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it created it= self.

But e= ven the node is removed from <running>, what’s defined in <s= ystem> datastore can still be merged into <intended> and applied b= y the device.

Thus = there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node from the dev= ice’s perspective. Make sense?

5.

"datastore does not have to persist across rebo= ots."

'I would say: The content of the datastore is remove= d at reboot and

re-created by the system with the same or changed co= ntent.'

IMHO it is important to state that there will be som= e reasonable content in the

<system> datastore even if it might have chang= ed.

[Qiuf= ang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that reboots will cause th= e contents of <system> to be lost.

I did= not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause contents c= hange in the <system> datastore after re-loading/re-creating. But thi= s is obviously true from my perspective.

7.1

"Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if th= e RESTCONF server

   implements the "resolve-system&quo= t; parameter?"

Make it a capability in the hello message like with-= defaults.

[Qiufang] I am thinking that maybe no need to define a =
capability identifier, and YANG library can also help for RESTCONF client.<=
o:p>
RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUS=
T support the <operational> datastore and MUST implement the ietf-yan=
g-library module.
It also states:
”   =
A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG modules the
   server supports by reading th=
e YANG library information from the
   operational state datastore.<=
/span>”
Make sense?

7.2

The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorre= ct. It shall be inside the

<edit-config> element.

[Qiufang] Good catch! = I’ve fixed in my local version. Thanks, Balazs.

 

--_000_b7e941e8f8b7408aa2436f7f92043162huaweicom_-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 00:13:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09333A1739 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 00:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNfz6nXsp_1j for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 00:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D31E3A0E70 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 00:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 499) id 39B383BAB2; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 00:13:11 -0700 (PDT) To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org From: RFC Errata System Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, andy@yumaworks.com, netmod@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220329071311.39B383BAB2@rfc-editor.org> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 00:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 07:13:16 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair Section: Appendix A Original Text ------------- o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines related to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the approved text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: Corrected Text -------------- o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines related to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the approved text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: Notes ----- https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ says: == Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was erroneously called the “Simplified BSD License” rather than the “Revised BSD License”, and many documents that refer to these provisions copied the erroneous name. The IETF Trust corrected the error on September 21, 2021. The license text itself was always that of the Revised BSD License and has not changed. == Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20) -------------------------------------- Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models Publication Date : October 2018 Author(s) : A. 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boundary="_004_HE1PR83MB03785D65431C5DF40FA08FEA881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR83MB0378.EURPRD83.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c8f60b36-f388-4ae3-ac30-08da118f6f94 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Mar 2022 14:21:37.4856 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Pqbz2yzSEBkFcljmQrey6fuCp+RiERJoZUmF4iEHGPVLmsz8flUsWo9OrYRNZSlHeIWAC+6u+GpY/d7j90R2rr07EsEkqMaqvrYkDiMfREc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR83MB0328 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:21:47 -0000 --_004_HE1PR83MB03785D65431C5DF40FA08FEA881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR83MB03785D65431C5DF40FA08FEA881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_" --_000_HE1PR83MB03785D65431C5DF40FA08FEA881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I think I've found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I'd like your input on wha= t was intended and what the best behaviour to exhibit is. Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG (= ietf.org) descri= be the encoding of leaf-lists and lists, however it's unclear how an empty = list should be encoded. Should it be encoded as: 1. An empty array: {"list": []} 2. A missing field: {} I've seen libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but the python ya= ngson library accepts both (I'm not sure which is the default). Thanks, Jack Rickard he/him Software Engineer jack.rickard@microsoft.com [Microsoft Logo] --_000_HE1PR83MB03785D65431C5DF40FA08FEA881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

I think I’ve found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, a= nd I’d like your input on what was intended and what the best behavio= ur to exhibit is.

 

Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data M= odeled with YANG (ietf.org) describe the encoding of leaf-lists and lis= ts, however it’s unclear how an empty list should be encoded. Should it be encoded as:

  1. An empty array: {= “list”: []}
  2. A missing field: {}

 

I’ve seen libraries go either way, libyang onl= y accepts 2 but the python yangson library accepts both (I’m not sure= which is the default).

 

Thanks,

Jack R= ickard
he/him
Software Engineer
jack.rickard@microsoft.com

3D"Microsoft

 

 

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Hh41whNgDw8PjxrhCbCHh4dHjfAE2MPDw6NG/H+3DedvslyCqwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --_004_HE1PR83MB03785D65431C5DF40FA08FEA881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 10:14:26 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fd6abba70-36f5982f-085f-4c24-b0cd-35e90700b495-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EEF3A1B45 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:14:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B140nf6Xy94H for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-90.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-90.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76AAF3A1B2A for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648574053; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=Fn/UDJXvin6CvFLWsSGHEcHXoNswZyav/sVTtP3tl9o=; b=ATQxoE2/fTTG+52kVJuS/KVdrXgWzwLXrSvGxRCilZ6bog/wKAoP7kEyqZAWewtm C9cvGoJNZwDa+cOpQl/hhR9WWWqIs23dBVH7YUhVOkbeu9m5rz5e6hNLdoHIGqj5iIe AcmBB+eUNAev/iCjKgYg9FFc1sgvlexVrpg4/URY= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fd6abba70-36f5982f-085f-4c24-b0cd-35e90700b495-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C03037EE-429A-4E36-BE6B-4390DD3DC560" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:14:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Jack Rickard References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.29-54.240.48.90 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:14:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C03037EE-429A-4E36-BE6B-4390DD3DC560 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 #1 is an empty list (or leaf-list). This is what you want. #2 is a list containing one element, which is an empty container (or, in = Python term's, an empty 'dict'). Yanglint 1.x used to accept #1, kinks are being worked out on the 2.x = branch. Kent // contributor > On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Jack Rickard = wrote: >=20 > Hi, > =20 > I think I=E2=80=99ve found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I=E2=80=99d = like your input on what was intended and what the best behaviour to = exhibit is. > =20 > Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with = YANG (ietf.org) = describe the = encoding of leaf-lists and lists, however it=E2=80=99s unclear how an = empty list should be encoded. Should it be encoded as: > An empty array: {=E2=80=9Clist=E2=80=9D: []} > A missing field: {} > =20 > I=E2=80=99ve seen libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but = the python yangson library accepts both (I=E2=80=99m not sure which is = the default). > =20 > Thanks, > Jack Rickard=20 > he/him=20 > Software Engineer=20 > jack.rickard@microsoft.com =20 >=20 > > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod = --Apple-Mail=_C03037EE-429A-4E36-BE6B-4390DD3DC560 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 #1 = is an empty list (or leaf-list).  This is what you want.

#2 is a list containing = one element, which is an empty container (or, in Python term's, an empty = 'dict').

Yanglint 1.x used to accept #1, kinks are being worked out on = the 2.x branch.

Kent // contributor


On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Jack Rickard <jack.rickard=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Hi,
 
I think I=E2=80=99ve found an ambiguity in RFC = 7951, and I=E2=80=99d like your input on what was intended and what the = best behaviour to exhibit is.
 
Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data = Modeled with YANG (ietf.org) describe the encoding of = leaf-lists and lists, however it=E2=80=99s unclear how an empty list = should be encoded. Should it be encoded as:
  • An empty array: {=E2=80=9Clist=E2=80=9D: = []}
  • A missing field: {}
    •  
    I=E2=80=99ve seen = libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but the python yangson = library accepts both (I=E2=80=99m not sure which is the default).
     
    Thanks,
    Jack Rickard 
    he/him 
    Software Engineer 
    jack.rickard@microsoft.com 

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Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:19:18 +0000 From: Jack Rickard To: Kent Watsen CC: "netmod@ietf.org" , "mvasko@cesnet.cz" Thread-Topic: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists Thread-Index: AQHYQ5mBWDBbmNjGP0mSx2xLt/gZEg== Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:19:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0100017fd6abba70-36f5982f-085f-4c24-b0cd-35e90700b495-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017fd6abba70-36f5982f-085f-4c24-b0cd-35e90700b495-000000@email.amazonses.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2022-03-29T18:19:10.736Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Method=Standard; authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com; 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boundary="_000_HE1PR83MB0378DFCEB5C60C880A56EE38881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR83MB0378.EURPRD83.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 41703f08-1f19-42da-881a-08da11b0a3f2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Mar 2022 18:19:18.6143 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Tk3xiU/1erZVXXVRb1rqKpdjZukHFx1BfLuL/9wxyQr8OKMuiUeqAKx/OHc0cDVr1jaXy3pRbEDyt6xNHfahxLVIm101PS3OpjSJy9jg+Ao= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR83MB0352 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:19:31 -0000 --_000_HE1PR83MB0378DFCEB5C60C880A56EE38881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kent, Thanks very much for the response. However, I'm slightly worried you've mis= understood my examples, and as I've been fighting in the #1 corner I want t= o make sure I give #2 a fair chance. Given this schema: module test { prefix "test"; namespace "urn:test"; container test { leaf foo {type string;} leaf-list bar {type string;} leaf baz {type string;} } } Is this valid (#1): { "test:test": { "foo": "test1", "bar": [], "baz": "test2" } } and is this valid (#2): { "test:test": { "foo": "test1", "baz": "test2" } } To make sure I didn't miss something I verified this with yanglint 0.16.105= (what ubuntu gave me), and that accepts #2 but not #1 (it rejects #1 with = err : Invalid JSON data (unexpected value). (/test:test/bar)). To be really clear this is accepted: { "test:test": { "foo": "test1", "bar": ["test3"], "baz": "test2" } } Thanks, Jack ________________________________ From: Kent Watsen Sent: 29 March 2022 18:14 To: Jack Rickard Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org ; netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists #1 is an empty list (or leaf-list). This is what you want. #2 is a list containing one element, which is an empty container (or, in Py= thon term's, an empty 'dict'). Yanglint 1.x used to accept #1, kinks are being worked out on the 2.x branc= h. Kent // contributor On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Jack Rickard > wrote= : Hi, I think I=92ve found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I=92d like your input on= what was intended and what the best behaviour to exhibit is. Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG (= ietf.org) de= scribe the encoding of leaf-lists and lists, however it=92s unclear how an = empty list should be encoded. Should it be encoded as: 1. An empty array: {=93list=94: []} 2. A missing field: {} I=92ve seen libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but the python = yangson library accepts both (I=92m not sure which is the default). Thanks, Jack Rickard he/him Software Engineer jack.rickard@microsoft.com _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --_000_HE1PR83MB0378DFCEB5C60C880A56EE38881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Kent,

    Thanks very much for the response. However, I'm slightly worried you've mis= understood my examples, and as I've been fighting in the #1 corner I want t= o make sure I give #2 a fair chance.

    Given this schema:
    module test {
      prefix "test";
      namespace "urn:test";

      container test {
        leaf foo {type string;}
        leaf-list bar {type string;}
        leaf baz {type string;}
      }
    }

    Is this valid (#1):
    {
            "test:test": {
                    "foo"= ;: "test1",
                    "bar"= ;: [],
                    "baz"= ;: "test2"
            }
    }

    and is this valid (#2):
    {
            "test:test": {
                    "foo"= ;: "test1",
                    "baz"= ;: "test2"
            }
    }

    To make sure I didn't miss something I verified this with yanglint 0.16.105= (what ubuntu gave me), and that accepts #2 but not #1 (it rejects #1 with = err : Invalid JSON data (unexpected value). (/test:test/bar)).
    To be really clear this is accepted:
    {
       =     "test:test": {
       =             "foo": "test1&quo= t;,
       =             "bar": ["test3&qu= ot;],
       =             "baz": "test2&quo= t;
       =     }
    }

    Thanks,
    Jack

    From:<= /b> Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
    Sent: 29 March 2022 18:14
    To: Jack Rickard <jack.rickard@microsoft.com>
    Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org <draft-ietf-netmod-yang-= json@ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org <netmod@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists
     
    #1 is an empty list (or leaf-list).  Thi= s is what you want.

    #2 is a list containing one element, which is an empty cont= ainer (or, in Python term's, an empty 'dict').

    Yanglint 1.x used to accept #1, kinks are being worked out = on the 2.x branch.

    Kent // contributor


    On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Jack Rickard <jack.rickard=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrot= e:

    Hi,
     
    I think I=92ve found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I=92d like your input on= what was intended and what the best behaviour to exhibit is.
     
    Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG (ietf.or= g) describe the enc= oding of leaf-lists and lists, however it=92s unclear how an empty list sho= uld be encoded. Should it be encoded as:
    1. An empty array: {=93list=94: []}
    2. A missing field: {}
      3.  
      I=92ve seen libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but the python = yangson library accepts both (I=92m not sure which is the default).
       
      Thanks,
      Jack Rickard 
      he/him 
      Software Engineer 
      jack.ric= kard@microsoft.com =

      <image001.png>
       
       
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    --_000_HE1PR83MB0378DFCEB5C60C880A56EE38881E9HE1PR83MB0378EURP_-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 13:30:31 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fd75f4c6a-a7d746e2-abea-4dac-be3a-2ef8f2d63230-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70213A1BFD for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:30:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.806 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.806 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtXxAGFaKqU9 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B383A1C00 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648585822; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=Q0FSbwBw/lkX8+p3DOv8Bc9I5yprW5RAFEUE4U5TrF4=; b=AEPIM7BMP/cgZSi0Bak/3Nd9v9nkV5V+6Fms/P1PaHa0K/jaxsBpGNfSQMY0SJcc +xlUsSJrKegh6yTaOGwbnyyk9QqurVq1thK1tpz+wq/rnUOWS1cuEPdL7Q1fnDRFzUU yc+qhfbD6U/OWUE3Pk3OsRAOyDBvprPyvos2kSdI= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fd75f4c6a-a7d746e2-abea-4dac-be3a-2ef8f2d63230-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D7E5A8A5-D69C-4636-9411-1DDB82CBE884" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 20:30:21 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "mvasko@cesnet.cz" To: Jack Rickard References: <0100017fd6abba70-36f5982f-085f-4c24-b0cd-35e90700b495-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.29-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 20:30:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D7E5A8A5-D69C-4636-9411-1DDB82CBE884 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Jack, Yes, indeed, I did misunderstand your original #2. Between an empty list node appearing (as just "[ ]") versus not = appearing at all, I do not think that the JSON encoding is defined, and = so tooling should accept either encoding, IMO. [FWIW, XML has only one = encoding]. Personally, I initially preferred #1 (because it is more = self-describing), but implementation-details drove me to #2. Kent // contributor > On Mar 29, 2022, at 2:19 PM, Jack Rickard = wrote: >=20 > Hi Kent, >=20 > Thanks very much for the response. However, I'm slightly worried = you've misunderstood my examples, and as I've been fighting in the #1 = corner I want to make sure I give #2 a fair chance. >=20 > Given this schema: > module test { > prefix "test"; > namespace "urn:test"; >=20 > container test { > leaf foo {type string;} > leaf-list bar {type string;} > leaf baz {type string;} > } > } >=20 > Is this valid (#1): > { > "test:test": { > "foo": "test1", > "bar": [], > "baz": "test2" > } > } >=20 > and is this valid (#2): > { > "test:test": { > "foo": "test1", > "baz": "test2" > } > } >=20 > To make sure I didn't miss something I verified this with yanglint = 0.16.105 (what ubuntu gave me), and that accepts #2 but not #1 (it = rejects #1 with err : Invalid JSON data (unexpected value). = (/test:test/bar)). > To be really clear this is accepted: > { > "test:test": { > "foo": "test1", > "bar": ["test3"], > "baz": "test2" > } > } >=20 > Thanks, > Jack >=20 > From: Kent Watsen > Sent: 29 March 2022 18:14 > To: Jack Rickard > Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org = ; netmod@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists > =20 > #1 is an empty list (or leaf-list). This is what you want. >=20 > #2 is a list containing one element, which is an empty container (or, = in Python term's, an empty 'dict'). >=20 > Yanglint 1.x used to accept #1, kinks are being worked out on the 2.x = branch. >=20 > Kent // contributor >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Jack Rickard = > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >> =20 >> I think I=E2=80=99ve found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I=E2=80=99d = like your input on what was intended and what the best behaviour to = exhibit is. >> =20 >> Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with = YANG (ietf.org) = = describe the encoding of leaf-lists and lists, however it=E2=80=99s = unclear how an empty list should be encoded. Should it be encoded as: >> An empty array: {=E2=80=9Clist=E2=80=9D: []} >> A missing field: {} >> =20 >> I=E2=80=99ve seen libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but = the python yangson library accepts both (I=E2=80=99m not sure which is = the default). >> =20 >> Thanks, >> Jack Rickard=20 >> he/him=20 >> Software Engineer=20 >> jack.rickard@microsoft.com =20 >>=20 >> >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod = --Apple-Mail=_D7E5A8A5-D69C-4636-9411-1DDB82CBE884 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Jack,

    Yes, indeed, I = did misunderstand your original #2.

    Between an empty list node appearing = (as just "[ ]") versus not appearing at all, I do not think that the = JSON encoding is defined, and so tooling should accept either encoding, = IMO.   [FWIW, XML has only one encoding].

    Personally, I initially preferred #1 = (because it is more self-describing), but implementation-details drove = me to #2.

    Kent = // contributor


    On Mar = 29, 2022, at 2:19 PM, Jack Rickard <jack.rickard@microsoft.com> wrote:

    Hi = Kent,

    Thanks very much for the response. However, I'm slightly worried = you've misunderstood my examples, and as I've been fighting in the #1 = corner I want to make sure I give #2 a fair chance.

    Given this = schema:
    module test {
      prefix = "test";
      namespace "urn:test";

      container test = {
        leaf foo {type string;}
        leaf-list bar {type string;}
        leaf baz {type string;}
      }
    }

    Is this valid = (#1):
    {
          =   "test:test": {
            =         "foo": "test1",
      =               "bar": [],
                    = "baz": "test2"
            = }
    }

    and is this valid (#2):
    {
            "test:test": = {
                  =   "foo": "test1",
            =         "baz": "test2"
      =       }
    }

    To make sure I = didn't miss something I verified this with yanglint 0.16.105 (what = ubuntu gave me), and that accepts #2 but not #1 (it rejects #1 with err = : Invalid JSON data (unexpected value). (/test:test/bar)).
    To be really clear this is accepted:
    {
          =   "test:test": {
              =       "foo": "test1",
          =           "bar": ["test3"],
                    = "baz": "test2"
            }
    }

    Thanks,
    Jack

    From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
    Sent: 29 = March 2022 18:14
    To: Jack Rickard <jack.rickard@microsoft.com>
    Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org <draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org <netmod@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON = encoding of empty lists
     
    #1 is an empty list (or leaf-list).  This = is what you want.

    #2 = is a list containing one element, which is an empty container (or, in = Python term's, an empty 'dict').

    Yanglint 1.x used to accept #1, kinks = are being worked out on the 2.x branch.

    Kent // contributor


    On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:21 AM, = Jack Rickard <jack.rickard=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

    Hi,
     
    I think I=E2=80=99ve = found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I=E2=80=99d like your input on what = was intended and what the best behaviour to exhibit is.
     
    Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - = JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG (ietf.org) describe the encoding of = leaf-lists and lists, however it=E2=80=99s unclear how an empty list = should be encoded. Should it be encoded as:
    1. An empty array: {=E2=80=9Clist=E2=80=9D: = []}
    2. A missing = field: {}
     
    I=E2=80=99ve seen libraries go either way, libyang only = accepts 2 but the python yangson library accepts both (I=E2=80=99m not = sure which is the default).
     
    Thanks,
    Jack Rickard 
    he/him 
    Software Engineer 
    jack.rickard@microsoft.com 

    <image001.png>
     
     
    _______________________________________________
    netmod mailing list
    netmod@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
    <= /div>

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boundary="_000_DM6PR08MB5084B93AE2EFBA147440141F9B1E9DM6PR08MB5084namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR08MB5084.namprd08.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d0d53845-b8ce-42f0-2d05-08da11c86dc7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Mar 2022 21:09:35.8778 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ljUYfG4M21mbJX4w0JOlieOXNWopKDgfStLsYhonRfsuh9u8y0DT8O2bNr+VWtdWFQXP7N9c2saKhATnZRbPgQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR08MB4009 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2022-03-29 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:09:47 -0000 --_000_DM6PR08MB5084B93AE2EFBA147440141F9B1E9DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2022-03-29 Discussed Jurgen's feedback on Module Versioning: * 1. Introduction - discussion notes captured in github Issues #145 and #146 - generally agreed on the direction of Jurgen's comments * 3.4.1. File names - discussion notes captured in github Issue #148 - more discussion needed (ranging from removing all RFC 2119 language to re= moving the new suffix altogether) Issue #147 raised to ensure we are clear on how to check if a revision is a= descendant of another revision Next meeting: continue discussion of WGLC feedback. Jason ---------------------------------------------- Versioning work on Github: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt ---------------------------------------------- Weekly webex call details: Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630 Meeting password: semver? Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, November 16, 2021 from 9:00 AM to 1= 0:00 AM, (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) 9:00 AM | (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) | 1 hr https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754 Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (US/Canada) --_000_DM6PR08MB5084B93AE2EFBA147440141F9B1E9DM6PR08MB5084namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    YANG Versioning Weekly Call Minutes - 2022-03-29

     

    Discussed Jurgen's feedback on Module Versioning:

     

    * 1. Introduction

    - discussion notes captured in github Issues #145 an= d #146

    - generally agreed on the direction of Jurgen's comm= ents

     

    * 3.4.1. File names

    - discussion notes captured in github Issue #148

    - more discussion needed (ranging from removing all = RFC 2119 language to removing the new suffix altogether)

     

    Issue #147 raised to ensure we are clear on how to c= heck if a revision is a descendant of another revision

     

    Next meeting: continue discussion of WGLC feedback.<= o:p>

     

    Jason

     

    ----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

    Versioning work on Github:

    https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-ver-dt

     

    ----------------------------------------------<= /o:p>

    Weekly webex call details:

     

    Meeting number (access code): 161 096 5630

    Meeting password: semver?

     

    Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, November 16,= 2021 from 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM, (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

    9:00 AM  |  (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US &= amp; Canada)  |  1 hr

     

    https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID= =3Dme2c6491ebcc37b8127c1244d244d2754

    Tap to join from a mobile device (attendees only)

    +1-650-479-3208,,1610965630## Call-in toll number (U= S/Canada)

    --_000_DM6PR08MB5084B93AE2EFBA147440141F9B1E9DM6PR08MB5084namp_-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 00:53:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227473A0FE3 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2iQurCb-sunf for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0379C3A0FF5 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wedge.nic.cz (unknown [IPv6:2001:718:1a02:1::a00]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC69D13FAA4; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:53:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Jack Rickard , "draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: Mail-Followup-To: Jack Rickard , "draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:53:26 +0200 Message-ID: <87sfqzlvux.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:53:35 -0000 Hi, Jack Rickard writes: > Hi, > > I think I've found an ambiguity in RFC 7951, and I'd like your input on what was intended and what the best behaviour to exhibit is. > > Section 5.3 and 5.4 of RFC 7951 - JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG (ietf.org) describe the encoding of leaf-lists and lists, however it's unclear how an empty list should be encoded. Should it be encoded as: > > 1. An empty array: {"list": []} > 2. A missing field: {} Both variants are equivalent and should be supported by tools and libraries. I can understand though that tools supporting both XML and JSON representations tend to prefer #2 because #1 doesn't exist in XML. Also note that #1 isn't really of much use, as entire list and leaf-list instances aren't even resources/endpoints in RESTCONF API - e.g. it's not possible to GET the entire list. Lada > > I've seen libraries go either way, libyang only accepts 2 but the python yangson library accepts both (I'm not sure which is the default). > > Thanks, > Jack Rickard > he/him > Software Engineer > jack.rickard@microsoft.com > > [Microsoft Logo] > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Wed Mar 30 01:04:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1183A10C7 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 01:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, 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MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b031cfa6-4bcc-4230-4fd4-08da123942ee X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2022 10:37:17.0446 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bpDyZisaXRXsSDQRZ6Zh+c+R16kXyC6EVUK2oR7h2dsAGJXl0Ei1RRJDBB+E9u2nJwYxrhfW0kNG57YYFF82YkeFEla3MMWXQ3Xb6W5HfYQ= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB4088 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:37:34 -0000 --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351499199242C0357D136EFF01F9VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Quifang, See comments as BALAZS2 below. Regards Balazs From: maqiufang (A) Sent: Tuesday, 29 March, 2022 08:10 To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel Cc: NetMod WG Subject: RE: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 Hi, Balazs, Thanks for your thorough review and valuable comments! To be brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I think the= re are still a couple of comments that need further discussion, like: * Terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in di= fferent datastores(e.g., system and running). BALAZS2: MY best idea is to ALWAYS say: The "interface data node in " "/running/interfaces/interface/name" - so prefix the datast= ore name to the path * Should "copy-config" operation also be augmented to support "resolve-= system" parameter? BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration from a file to runni= ng, you will still need parts of to make the new content of valid. * The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the "resolve-system= " parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client. BALAZS2: I very strongly oppose this restriction because it is: a bad idea,= unenforceable, NBC and would be a problem for other SDOs. * Will the update of be reflected into ? If not, will= this cause an invalid datastore? BALAZS2: I see this similar as an upgrade problem. Following RFC7950 sectio= n 11 rules: During an upgrade you may obsolete a schema node, this remove i= t, or you may add a default value. Both changes may make an existing config= uration invalid. System configuration should also be changed only very care= fully because it may cause an invalid configuration, in which case the chan= ge to system-configuration probably should be rejected / not-allowed. Automatic updates in running is a tricky problem. E.g. will you remove conf= iguration of an interface if the HW is removed? There might be a lot of dat= a nodes configured based on it. There might be leafrefs pointing at the int= erface. Please also see my detailed reply inline. Best Regards, Qiufang From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Lengyel Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:47 AM To: 'netmod@ietf.org' > Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 Hello, I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comments questions are belo= w. Regards Balazs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D General) I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot impro= vements. The term system-configuration is used confusingly. Does system-configuration reside in the datastore only or can it reside in the datastore too? If system-configuration is copied by the client (+) into the datastore is it still system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the syste= m. [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. System configuration is provided by the device in datastore, thoug= h I think it may also be present in with origin=3D"system". If it is copied/pasted into , the copied configuration in should not be called as "system configuration". But I think it's okay to say something like "copy system configuration into= ", the object to be copied is system configuration which is defin= ed in . BALAZS2: So the definition of system-config is: System configuration: Configuration that is provided by the system itself.= It is the configuration that is stored in the datastore or the co= nfiguration data stored in the datastore with origin=3Dsystem= . This means that Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean a specific data node IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (according to the path in the data tree) in different datastores need to be referenced separately. [Qiufang]Cross-datastores references is not the intention here. Any suggestions to make it clear or what does the terminology looks like in= your mind? Does the solution allow conditional system configuration? (E.g., if the client creates an OSPF interface the system inserts a child = leaf into it) [Qiufang] Yes, it does. System configurations which are provided and activa= ted based on specific conditions being met in a system, it is defined as "C= onditionally-Active system configuration". https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02.txt#se= ction-2.2 describes this kind of system configuration. 1.1) If system shares the same schema as running that would force it to populate mandatory nodes. That might be a problem. State that mandatory or min-elements might not be enforced in . [Qiufang] I think that mandatory or min/max-elements nodes should be enforc= ed in . There should be no exceptions. What's the problem that you think might happen? 1.3) "client may overwrite values of configurations defined in " However it also states: The contents of datastore are read-only These seem to contradict. Please clarify. [Qiufang]It is confusing, indeed. When it says the contents of dat= astore are read-only, I mean is a read-only datastore, e.g., an operation towards should be refused. But the client c= an overwrite values of configurations defined in by writing new va= lues in , which will take precedence over initial values set by th= e system. How about this: OLD:" client may overwrite values of configurations defined in " NEW:"client may overwrite values of configurations defined in by c= onfiguring the intended values in ." BALAZS2: New is good, but use the word override instead of overwrite. We don't actua= lly change the existing values, rather providing another value in = that will have precedence. 1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-config might also need system configured items. It should be mentioned that the sa= me "resolution" is also needed after a node-restart. [Qiufang] Are you suggesting to augment copy-config with "resolve-system" p= arameter also? This operation is used to replace the target configuration, so you also wan= t the server to write missing referenced system nodes automatically after t= he full replacement. But is this still a "copy-config"? Copy usually means the same to me. Do yo= u have any use cases in your mind? I think we need further discussion, or let's see if anyone has any other co= mments on this. BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration from a file to runni= ng, you will still need parts of to make the new content of valid. If you think of conditional-system-configuration the above is sp= ecially true. What does populate mean? Is it the same as "copy from system to running" ? = If yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as specific. [Qiufang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it. 2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms provided, activated, ap= plied. I am not sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item present in the datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-data on will I receive not-applied data nodes? [Qiufang] This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these terms,= if they are not defined in NMDA. A data item will be present in once it is provided by the system, = regardless of whether it is applied. Note that NMDA already defines the term "applied configuration", which is c= onfiguration that is actively in use by a device. "Activated" should be removed and replaced with "applied". What is the difference between an applied and an activated data node and an applied but not activated data node? [Qiufang]I think there is no difference, both mean that the configuration i= s in use by a server. Or maybe you want to ask what is the difference betwe= en a generated and applied data node and an generated but not applied data = node? Regardless it is applied immediately when it's generated, once system= configuration is generated, it will appear in . System configurati= on that are not applied yet is unlikely to appear in , but it = may also depend on the device implementation. I would rather see terminology like: - is present in the datastore - is not yet present in the datastore, but the system will create = it in the datastore when a condition is fulfilled. [Qiufang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next version. How is it defined for specific schema nodes which kind of system-data it is= ? Free English text? Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough if the server knows th= is? [Qiufang] Current draft doesn't define any specific schema to indicate whic= h kind of system-data it is. Although this work tries to explore all different kinds of system configura= tion, I don't see a compelling reason to define a dedicated schema to ident= ify each kind. But I think that the client can understand each kind of system configuratio= n by some ways, e.g., Configuration which is only present in and n= ot is inactive-until-referenced, and configuration which is = generated and present in when a specific feature is enabled is con= ditionally-active system configuration. 2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the functionality is licensed an= d the license key is inserted? [Qiufang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active system configu= ration, one for hardware-related resource condition driven, and the other f= or software-related functionality resource driven. Are you saying that QoS is not a good example? There used to be some discus= sion, I think we all agree that when QoS feature is enabled, QoS related sy= stem configuration will be generated. But licensing a functionality could a= lso be the case from my perspective. "I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. create a new qo= s policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created inside that= policy)." https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vkcgf9J6dJU/ https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmbQX4yPwWCs/ 3.1) is also read-only so why is that better to store deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config originated data cannot be delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that true both for explicit NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system? [Qiufang]I believe that this was discussed both on the mail list and at NET= MOD's interim meeting last October. A client can configure/override a system-instantiated object in , = it can also delete it from ( and I agree with you that once it's p= resent in we cannot call it "system configuration" actually, and = the value initialized by the system is overwritten even it's the same value= ). But anyway the contents defined in will be merged into = and . Therefore there is no way to delete a system configurati= on which is defined in . But can be used to initialize , and once it's de= leted from , it is totally deleted from the device. And to answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in = cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, it's true both for exp= licit copy and copy due to resolve-system parameter. 3.2) If something was populated/copied over to running/candidate will/shoul= d any changed system values be copied over again thereby updating the running/candidate datastores? Can this result in the running becoming invalid? [Qiufang]Are you asking will any changes in be reflected into /? That's a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don't think that will= result in becoming invalid, since the contents in keep= unchanged. On the contrary, I think if the update being reflected into MAY c= ause to be invalid. I don't think all the update in datastore should be reflected into= , e.g., an intentional override operation should not care the upd= ated system-instantiated leaf instance value. Since this document defines a datastore, the client can use YANG n= otification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect the upda= te into by itself if needed. Does this make sense? 4.1) You write "The client may reference nodes defined in , overwrite values of configurations defined in " IMHO the data nodes in and are 2 different things even if they reside on the same path in the data tree. You need to find terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in differen= t datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I need to guess which datastore you mean. I think this guessing process might hide problems. Do you mean here: "The client may reference nodes defined in if th= ey are copied into / as a result of an explicit copy or resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a data node in running and referencing a data node in (even if they share the same address in the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think you want to create a reference that point between datastores. Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data nodes that were created by copying from the datastore." [Qiufang] Maybe I've caused some confusion. Forget the datastore for the moment. The client usually has the de= sire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of system conf= igurations, right? The datastore only contains those which are actively in use, = there is no standard mechanism for the client to see what system configurat= ion is available in a server. is defined as a standard mechanism to allow the client to retrieve= system configuration. So that it can reference/overwrite system configurat= ion, by the client writing configuration to that overrides/copies= the system configuration in . is only defined to retrieve available system configuration. " MAY overwrite and/or extend " this means that the data nodes in system are modified although they are readOnly. Is this what you mean? Clarify! [Qiufang] itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification (e.g.,= ) towards datastore should be rejected. But this doesn't mean there is no way to overwrite/extend system configurat= ion. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting and addition. I will see how to make it clear in the next version. BALAZS2: Again as I understand it: we do not overwrite system configuratio= n, we might overwrite data nodes in running that were originally copied fro= m the datastore. "Note that only aware clients copy referenced system nodes from " How does the server know if the client is system-aware? It would be better = to state something like: 'In order for the system configuration to affect validation the client need= s to either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy system configura= tion into running' [Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says something similar to your proposal. Sec4.1:" Clients MUST either explicitly configure system-defined nodes in or use the "resolve-system" parameter." Last para: The server has no way to know if the client is system aware. Onc= e the data nodes are copied into there is no need to say more. [Qiufang] There is no need for the server to understand if the client is aware. But I'll think it important to state in the draft that the copied configura= tion driven by the "resolve-system" will also be returned in a read back of= datastore, and this behavior also applies to legacy clients, to = avoid any NBC issues. 4.2 "If the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client." I very strongly OBJECT. - It is a bad idea. - This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG. - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability to modify . Th= ey have data nodes where it is stated that list entries are not created by the= client. - This would need a revision 2 of YANG. - It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work around it. The system instantiates an onboard client to do the changes AND the system prohibits the change for other clients. However this is just a more complicated way of stating that the system itse= lf modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world more complicated. [Qiufang]When we first start this work, a lot of folks agree that clients w= ill benefit from a server which will not do anything the client doesn't exp= licitly ask for. We usually want a read-back of contains only what was explicitly = sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the objectives stated in t= he draft. But I've seen your points here. Let's see if there is any other comments or= suggestions. Otherwise I'd prefer to change this with a recommendation beh= avior. 4.3 Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you configure something in running it becomes part of running independent of this draft. [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. These can be removed. Mention that the system itself can also copy over parts or the complete system configuration into running. [Qiufang] Sure, will do, thanks! 4.4 In some cases, a server may allow some parts of system configuration to be modified. List keys in system configuration can't be changed by a client, but other descendant nodes in a list entry may be modifiable or non-modifiable. This contradicts the statement that the datastore is readOnly. [Qiufang] See my clarification above, will see how to refine this statement= . "Client configuration statements in take precedence over system configuration nodes in " Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a subchapter, there should= be a separate chapter about merging running and system into intended, stating = that running has precedence. This a tier 1 important statement ! There could be some interesting corner cases. [Qiufang] Okay, noted. Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is it there is l= ost, so terms like "client configuration" are hard to understand. That sounds mo= re like a use-case than a rule. [Qiufang] Sure, I will just say "configuration defined in ". Is th= is better? BALAZS2: Yes "While modifying (overriding) system configuration nodes may be supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node." Once the node is in the datastore if it is not mandatory it is possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it was the client that cop= ied the configuration into ? Is the client forbidden to remove somethi= ng that it created itself? I don't think so. [Qiufang] No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it creat= ed itself. But even the node is removed from , what's defined in dat= astore can still be merged into and applied by the device. Thus there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node from th= e device's perspective. Make sense? BALAZS2: Makes sense and I agree, but I would propose the wording: "While modifying (overriding) system configuration with data nodes in the <= running> datastore may be supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a configuration node from the datastore." 5. "datastore does not have to persist across reboots." 'I would say: The content of the datastore is removed at reboot and re-created by the system with the same or changed content.' IMHO it is important to state that there will be some reasonable content in= the datastore even if it might have changed. [Qiufang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that reboots will cau= se the contents of to be lost. I did not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause conte= nts change in the datastore after re-loading/re-creating. But this= is obviously true from my perspective. BALAZS2: The re-0creation of (some) system configuration is what I am missi= ng after a reboot. 7.1 "Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if the RESTCONF server implements the "resolve-system" parameter?" Make it a capability in the hello message like with-defaults. [Qiufang] I am thinking that maybe no need to define a capability identifie= r, and YANG library can also help for RESTCONF client. RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUST support the datastore and MUST implement the ietf-yang-library module. It also states: " A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG modules the server supports by reading the YANG library information from the operational state datastore." Make sense? BALAZS2: Not yet. The resolve-system parameter might be supported without a= datastore as I understand. True? SO does the support for the YANG module indicate the support for the resolv= e-system parameter? Isn't that an overkill to use YANG modules to indicate = support for a protocol capability? It might work, but is that the right way= to do it? 7.2 The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be inside = the element. [Qiufang] Good catch! I've fixed in my local version. Thanks, Balazs. --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351499199242C0357D136EFF01F9VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hello Quifang,

    See comments as BALAZS2 below.

    Regards Balazs

     

    From: maqiufang (A) <maqiufang1=3D40huawei= .com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, 29 March, 2022 08:10
    To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
    Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-0= 2

     

    Hi, B= alazs,

    Thank= s for your thorough review and valuable comments!

    To be= brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I think there ar= e still a couple of comments that need further discussion, like:<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:red">

    • Terminology to differentiate between t= he same(-path) data nodes in different datastores(e.g., system and running)= .

    BALAZS2: MY best idea is t= o ALWAYS say:

        &n= bsp;          The “interfac= e data node in <running>”<= o:p>

        &n= bsp;          “/running/int= erfaces/interface/name”  - = so prefix the datastore name to the path

    • Should “copy-config” opera= tion also be augmented to support “resolve-system” parameter?

    BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you c= opy a complete configuration from a file to running, you will still need pa= rts of <system> to make the new content of <running> valid.

    • The potential NBC issue behind this pr= inciple: If the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the cl= ient, the server MUST NOT modify <running> in any way not specified by the client.

    BALAZS2: I very strongly o= ppose this restriction because it is: a bad idea, unenforceable, NBC and wo= uld be a problem for other SDOs.

    • Will the update of <system> be r= eflected into <running>? If not, will this cause an invalid <runni= ng> datastore?

    BALAZS2: I see this simila= r as an upgrade problem. Following RFC7950 section 11 rules: During an upgr= ade you may obsolete a schema node, this remove it, or you may add a defaul= t value. Both changes may make an existing configuration invalid. System configuration should also be changed only ve= ry carefully because it may cause an invalid configuration, in which case t= he change to system-configuration probably should be rejected / not-allowed= .  

    Automatic updates in runni= ng is a tricky problem. E.g. will you remove configuration of an interface = if the HW is removed? There might be a lot of data nodes configured based o= n it. There might be leafrefs pointing at the interface.

     

    Pleas= e also see my detailed reply inline.

    =  

    Best = Regards,

    Qiufa= ng

    From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Lengyel
    Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:47 AM
    To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@= ietf.org>
    Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02

     

    Hello,

    I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comm= ents questions are below.

    Regards Balazs

     

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

     

    General)

    I think this work is important and valuable, but it = needs quite a lot improvements.

     

    The term system-configuration is used confusingly. D= oes

    system-configuration reside in the <system> da= tastore only or can it

    reside in the <running> datastore too? If syst= em-configuration is copied by

    the client (<get-data>+<edit-config>) in= to the <running> datastore is it

    still system-configuration? It is set by the client = this time not the system.

    [Qiuf= ang] Yes, I agree.

    Syste= m configuration is provided by the device in <system> datastore, thou= gh I think it may also be present in <operational> with origin=3DR= 21;system”.

    If it= is copied/pasted into <running>, the copied configuration in <run= ning> should not be called as “system configuration”.

    But I= think it’s okay to say something like “copy system configurati= on into <running>”, the object to be copied is system configura= tion which is defined in <system>.

    BALAZS2: So the definition= of system-config is:

    System configuration:  Configuration that i= s provided by the system itself. It is the configuration that is stored in = the <system> datastore or the configuration data stored in the <operational> datastore with origin=3Dsystem.

    This means that

    Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean= a specific data node

    IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (accordi= ng to the path in the

    data tree) in different datastores need to be refere= nced separately.

    [Qiufang]Cross-datasto= res references is not the intention here.

    Any suggestions to mak= e it clear or what does the terminology looks like in your mind?=

    =  

    Does the solution allow conditional system configura= tion?

    (E.g.,  if the client creates an OSPF interface= the system inserts a child leaf into it)

    [Qiufang] Yes, it does= . System configurations which are provided and activated based on specific = conditions being met in a system, it is defined as “Conditionally-Act= ive system configuration”.

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02.txt#section-2.2 describes this kind of system configuration.

    =  

    1.1) If system shares the same schema as running tha= t would force it to

    populate mandatory nodes.  That might be a prob= lem.

    State that mandatory or min-elements might not be en= forced in <system>.

    [Qiufang] I think that= mandatory or min/max-elements nodes should be enforced in <system>. = There should be no exceptions.

    What’s the probl= em that you think might happen?

    1.3) “client may overwrite values of configura= tions defined in <system>”

    However it also states: The contents of <system&g= t; datastore are read-only

    These seem to contradict. Please clarify.=

    [Qiufang]It is confusi= ng, indeed. When it says the contents of <system> datastore are read-= only, I mean <system> is a read-only datastore, e.g., an <edit-con= fig> operation towards <system> should be refused.  But the client can overwrite values of configurations defined in <syste= m> by writing new values in <running>, which will take precedence = over initial values set by the system.

    How about this:

    OLD:” cli= ent may overwrite values of configurations defined in <system>”

    NEW:“clie= nt may overwrite values of configurations defined in <system> by configuring the intended values in <running>= ;.”

    BALAZS2:=

    New is good, but use the w= ord override instead of overwrite. We don’t actually change the exist= ing values, rather providing another value in <running> that will hav= e precedence.

    1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-con= fig

    might also need system configured items. It should b= e mentioned that the same

    "resolution" is also needed after a node-r= estart.

    [Qiufang] Are you sugg= esting to augment copy-config with “resolve-system” parameter a= lso?

    This = operation is used to replace the target configuration, so you also want the= server to write missing referenced system nodes automatically after the fu= ll replacement.

    But i= s this still a “copy-config”? Copy usually means the same to me= . Do you have any use cases in your mind?

    I thi= nk we need further discussion, or let’s see if anyone has any other c= omments on this.

    BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you c= opy a complete configuration from a file to running, you will still need pa= rts of <system> to make the new content of <running> valid. If = you think of conditional-system-configuration the above is specially true.

    What does populate mean? Is it the same as "cop= y from system to running" ? If

    yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as = specific.

    [Qiuf= ang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it.

     

    2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms = provided, activated, applied. I am not

    sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item pres= ent in the <system>

    datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-= data on <system>

    will I receive not-applied data nodes?

    [Qiuf= ang] This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these terms, if t= hey are not defined in NMDA.

    A dat= a item will be present in <system> once it is provided by the system,= regardless of whether it is applied.

    Note = that NMDA already defines the term “applied configuration”, whi= ch is configuration that is actively in use by a device.<= /p>

    ̶= 0;Activated” should be removed and replaced with “applied”= ;.

    What is the difference between an applied and an act= ivated data node and an

    applied but not activated data node?

    [Qiuf= ang]I think there is no difference, both mean that the configuration is in = use by a server. Or maybe you want to ask what is the difference between a = generated and applied data node and an generated but not applied data node? Regardless it is applied immediate= ly when it’s generated, once system configuration is generated, it wi= ll appear in <system>. System configuration that are not applied yet = is unlikely to appear in <operational>, but it may also depend on the device implementation.

    I would rather see terminology like:

    - is present in the <system> datastore

    - is not yet present in the <system> datastore= , but the system will create it

    in the <system> datastore when a condition is = fulfilled.

    [Qiuf= ang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next version.

    How is it defined for specific schema nodes which ki= nd of system-data it is ?

    Free English text?

    Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough= if the server knows this?

    [Qiuf= ang] Current draft doesn’t define any specific schema to indicate whi= ch kind of system-data it is.

    Altho= ugh this work tries to explore all different kinds of system configuration,= I don’t see a compelling reason to define a dedicated schema to iden= tify each kind.

    But I= think that the client can understand each kind of system configuration by = some ways, e.g., Configuration which is only present in <system> and = not <operational> is  inactive-until-referenced, and configuration which is generated and present in <system> when a = specific feature is enabled is conditionally-active system configuration.

    2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the funct= ionality is licensed and

    the license key is inserted?

    [Qiuf= ang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active system configuratio= n, one for hardware-related resource condition driven, and the other for so= ftware-related functionality resource driven. 

    Are you saying that QoS is n=
ot a good example? There used to be some discussion, I think we all agree t=
hat when QoS feature is enabled, QoS related system configuration will be g=
enerated. But licensing a functionality could also be the case from my pers=
pective. 
    “I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. create =
a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically created ins=
ide that policy).”

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vkcgf9J6= dJU/

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmbQX4yPw= WCs/    

    3.1) <factory-default> is also read-only so wh= y is that better to store

    deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config ori= ginated data cannot be

    delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that= true both for explicit

    NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system?<= o:p>

    [Qiuf= ang]I believe that this was discussed both on the mail list and at NETMOD's= interim meeting last October.

    A cli= ent can configure/override a system-instantiated object in <running>,= it can also delete it from <running>( and I agree with you that once= it’s present in <running> we cannot call it “system configuration” actually, and the value initialized by the system is overwritten even it’s the same= value).

    But a= nyway the contents defined in <system> will be merged into <intend= ed> and <operational>. Therefore there is no way to delete a syste= m configuration which is defined in <system>.

    But &= lt;factory-default> can be used to initialize <running>, and once = it’s deleted from <running>, it is totally deleted from the dev= ice.

    And t= o answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in <system>= cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, it’s true both = for explicit copy and copy due to resolve-system parameter.

    3.2) If something was populated/copied over to runni= ng/candidate will/should

    any changed system values be copied over again there= by updating the

    running/candidate datastores?

    Can this result in the running becoming invalid?

    [Qiuf= ang]Are you asking will any changes in <system> be reflected into <= ;running>/<candidate>?

    That&= #8217;s a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don’t think th= at will result in <running> becoming invalid, since the contents in &= lt;running> keep unchanged.

    On th= e contrary, I think if the update being reflected into <running> MAY = cause <running> to be invalid.

    I don= ’t think all the update in <system> datastore should be reflect= ed into <running>, e.g., an intentional override operation should not= care the updated system-instantiated leaf instance value.

    Since= this document defines a <system> datastore, the client can use YANG = notification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect the upd= ate into <running> by itself if needed. Does this make sense?

    =  

    4.1)  You write

    "The client may reference nodes defined in <= system>, overwrite values

       of configurations defined in <system= >"

    IMHO the data nodes in <running> and <syste= m> are 2 different things even

    if they reside on the same path in the data tree. Yo= u need to find

    terminology to differentiate between the same(-path)= data nodes in different

    datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I = need to guess which

    datastore you mean. I think this guessing process mi= ght hide problems.

    Do you mean here: "The client may reference nod= es defined in <system> if they are

    copied into <running>/<candidate> as a r= esult of an explicit copy or

    resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a= data node in running and

    referencing a data node in <system> (even if t= hey share the same address in

    the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think = you want to create a

    reference that point between datastores.<= /p>

    Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data= nodes that were created by

    copying from the <system> datastore."

    [Qiuf= ang] Maybe I’ve caused some confusion.

    Forge= t the <system> datastore for the moment. The client usually has the d= esire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of system con= figurations, right?

    The &= lt;operational> datastore only contains those which are actively in use,= there is no standard mechanism for the client to see what system configura= tion is available in a server.

    <s= ystem> is defined as a standard mechanism to allow the client to retriev= e system configuration. So that it can reference/overwrite system configura= tion, by the client writing configuration to <running> that overrides/copies the system configuration in <s= ystem>.

    <s= ystem> is only defined to retrieve available system configuration.

    "<running> MAY overwrite and/or extend &l= t;system>" this means that the

    data nodes in system are modified although they are = readOnly.

    Is this what you mean? Clarify!

    [Qiuf= ang] <system> itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification (e.g.= , <edit-config>) towards <system> datastore should be rejected.=

    But t= his doesn’t mean there is no way to overwrite/extend system configura= tion. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting and addition.

    I wil= l see how to make it clear in the next version.

    BALAZS2: Again  as I = understand it: we do not overwrite system configuration, we might overwrite= data nodes in running that were originally copied from the <system> = datastore.

    "Note that only <system> aware clients co= py

       referenced system nodes from <system= >"

    How does the server know if the client is system-awa= re? It would be better to

    state something like:

    'In order for the system configuration to affect val= idation the client needs to

    either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitl= y copy system configuration

    into running'

    [Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says something similar =
to your proposal. 
    Sec4.1:” Clien=
ts MUST either
       explicitly configure system-d=
efined nodes in <running> or use the
       "resolve-system" pa=
rameter.”
     

    Last para: The server has no way to know if the clie= nt is system aware. Once

    the data nodes are copied into <running> there= is no need to say more.

    [Qiuf= ang] There is no need for the server to understand if the client is <sys= tem> aware.

    But I= ’ll think it important to state in the draft that the copied configur= ation driven by the “resolve-system” will also be returned in a= read back of <running> datastore, and this behavior also applies to legacy clients, to avoid any NBC issues.

    4.2

    "If the "resolve-system" parameter is= not given by the client, the server

       MUST NOT modify <running> in any = way not specified by the client."

    I very strongly OBJECT.

    - It is a bad idea.

    - This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG.

    - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability = to modify <running>. They

    have data nodes where it is stated that list entries= are not created by the client.

    - This would need a revision 2 of YANG.

    - It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to = work around it.

    The system instantiates an onboard client to do the = changes AND the system

    prohibits the change for other clients.

    However this is just a more complicated way of stati= ng that the system itself

    modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world= more complicated.

    [Qiuf= ang]When we first start this work, a lot of folks agree that clients will b= enefit from a server which will not do anything the client doesn’t ex= plicitly ask for.

    We us= ually want a read-back of <running> contains only what was explicitly= sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the objectives stated in = the draft.

    But I= ’ve seen your points here. Let’s see if there is any other comm= ents or suggestions. Otherwise I’d prefer to change this with a recom= mendation behavior.

    4.3

    Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not = needed. If you configure

    something in running it becomes part of running inde= pendent of this draft.

    [Qiuf= ang] Yes, I agree. These can be removed.

    Mention that the system itself  can also copy o= ver parts or the complete

    system configuration into running.

    [Qiuf= ang] Sure, will do, thanks!

    4.4

    In some cases, a server may allow some parts of syst= em configuration

       to be modified.  List keys in syst= em configuration can't be changed

       by a client, but other descendant nodes= in a list entry may be

       modifiable or non-modifiable.

      

     This contradicts the statement that the <sy= stem> datastore is readOnly.

    [Qiuf= ang] See my clarification above, will see how to refine this statement.

    "Client configuration statements in <running= > take precedence over system

    configuration nodes in <system>"

     

    Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a s= ubchapter, there should be

    a separate chapter about merging running and system = into intended, stating that running has precedence.

    This a tier 1 important statement !

    There could be some interesting corner cases.

    [Qiuf= ang] Okay, noted.

    Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge abo= ut why is it there is lost,

    so terms like "client configuration" are h= ard to understand. That sounds more

    like a use-case than a rule.

    [Qiuf= ang] Sure, I will just say “configuration defined in <running>&= #8221;. Is this better?

    BALAZS2: Yes

    "While modifying (overriding) system configurat= ion nodes may be

       supported by a server, there is no mech= anism for deleting a system

       configuration node."

      

    Once the node is in the <running> datastore if= it is not mandatory it is

    possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it = was the client that copied

    the configuration into <running>? Is the clien= t forbidden to remove something

    that it created itself? I don't think so.=

    [Qiuf= ang] No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it created it= self.

    But e= ven the node is removed from <running>, what’s defined in <s= ystem> datastore can still be merged into <intended> and applied b= y the device.

    Thus = there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node from the dev= ice’s perspective. Make sense?

    BALAZS2: Makes sense and I agree, but I would propos= e the wording:

    "While modifying (overriding) system configurat= ion with data nodes in the <running> datastore may be

       supported by a server, there is no mech= anism for deleting a

       configuration node from the <system&= gt; datastore."

     

    5.

    "datastore does not have to persist across rebo= ots."

    'I would say: The content of the datastore is remove= d at reboot and

    re-created by the system with the same or changed co= ntent.'

    IMHO it is important to state that there will be som= e reasonable content in the

    <system> datastore even if it might have chang= ed.

    [Qiuf= ang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that reboots will cause th= e contents of <system> to be lost.

    I did= not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause contents c= hange in the <system> datastore after re-loading/re-creating. But thi= s is obviously true from my perspective.

    BALAZS2: The re-0creation = of (some) system configuration is what I am missing after a reboot.

    7.1

    "Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if th= e RESTCONF server

       implements the "resolve-system&quo= t; parameter?"

    Make it a capability in the hello message like with-= defaults.

    [Qiufang] I am thinking that maybe no need to define a =
capability identifier, and YANG library can also help for RESTCONF client.<=
o:p>
    RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUS=
T support the <operational> datastore and MUST implement the ietf-yan=
g-library module.
    It also states:
    ”   =
A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG modules the
       server supports by reading th=
e YANG library information from the
       operational state datastore.<=
/span>”
    Make sense?
    BALAZS2: Not yet. The resolve-system parameter might be sup=
ported without a <system> datastore as I understand. True?=

    SO does the support for the YANG module indicate the suppor=
t for the resolve-system parameter? Isn’t that an overkill to use YAN=
G modules to indicate support for a protocol capability? It might work, but=
 is that the right way to do it?

    7.2

    The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorre= ct. It shall be inside the

    <edit-config> element.

    [Qiufang] Good catch! = I’ve fixed in my local version. Thanks, Balazs.

     

    --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351499199242C0357D136EFF01F9VI1PR0701MB2351_-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 03:38:33 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fda67c7d4-8a7fc99b-eb7b-42f7-9bc0-10d9dd232590-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE3F3A046E for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u_AHpJUvUTQL for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-94.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 297FB3A043E for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:38:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648636709; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:Feedback-ID; bh=q3RcMHhQnL9wkLOFVAavO9AMpxBgda5FH8UXxqk0F4Q=; b=CD8w/fzgPbbwNQ3B0DEVDKGXzFh4ALe6nvvXj5MehF3VChPQwBQnHpT0Y6PpQatF 0q9SSVAHkdvNfAl02Ny6eHx2BulPVUnxw/Yst5gg/RdpH/uzjh52WqP4uvu8Lmleb/L 0HUV4jPXf10avzCyXzakM4YlrTu7of4QCe1FBCuc= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kent Watsen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:38:28 +0000 Message-ID: <0100017fda67c7d4-8a7fc99b-eb7b-42f7-9bc0-10d9dd232590-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <87sfqzlvux.fsf@nic.cz> Cc: Jack Rickard , draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87sfqzlvux.fsf@nic.cz> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H107) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.30-54.240.48.94 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] RFC 7951 - JSON encoding of empty lists X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:38:32 -0000 > Also note that #1 isn't really of much use, as entire list and leaf-list i= nstances aren't even resources/endpoints in RESTCONF API - e.g. it's not pos= sible to GET the entire list. True, but the =E2=80=9Clist-pagination=E2=80=9D drafts (adoption-call in NET= CONF) seek to change this.=20 K.=20 From nobody Wed Mar 30 07:12:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8443E3A1951 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P_kL4VLYz8RC for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A62683A1950 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [173.38.220.55]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 178F51AE02AA; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:12:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Jan Lindblad Message-Id: <8F7D5127-E621-4920-BE30-89E1BF7E778D@tail-f.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1D969560-B151-4FB7-8B21-E2083C0204AF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:12:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: NetMod WG To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= , "maqiufang (A)" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:12:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1D969560-B151-4FB7-8B21-E2083C0204AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Bal=C3=A1zs, Qiufang, I've added some comments below as JANL. > Hi, Balazs, > Thanks for your thorough review and valuable comments! > To be brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I = think there are still a couple of comments that need further discussion, = like: > Terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in = different datastores(e.g., system and running). > BALAZS2: MY best idea is to ALWAYS say: > The =E2=80=9Cinterface data node in =E2=80=9D > =E2=80=9C/running/interfaces/interface/name=E2=80=9D - = so prefix the datastore name to the path JANL: Actually, I think this notation is rather confusing. How about = :running:/interfaces/interface/name ? > Should =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D operation also be augmented to = support =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter? > BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration from a file to = running, you will still need parts of to make the new content = of valid. JANL: I think this makes sense. > The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If the "resolve-system" = parameter is not given by the client, the server MUST NOT modify = in any way not specified by the client. > BALAZS2: I very strongly oppose this restriction because it is: a bad = idea, unenforceable, NBC and would be a problem for other SDOs. JANL: I could accept watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT. > Will the update of be reflected into ? If not, will = this cause an invalid datastore? > BALAZS2: I see this similar as an upgrade problem. Following RFC7950 = section 11 rules: During an upgrade you may obsolete a schema node, this = remove it, or you may add a default value. Both changes may make an = existing configuration invalid. System configuration should also be = changed only very carefully because it may cause an invalid = configuration, in which case the change to system-configuration probably = should be rejected / not-allowed. =20 JANL: At system upgrade, I think autoconfig (system modifying its own = configuration) is acceptable. Such changes could be seen as actions made = by a system-internal client. > Automatic updates in running is a tricky problem. E.g. will you remove = configuration of an interface if the HW is removed? There might be a lot = of data nodes configured based on it. There might be leafrefs pointing = at the interface. JANL: As many of you know, I'm not particularly happy about such changes = (I prefer the configuration to be left intact, but the oper state to = change to down/hardware-missing, etc) but if someone insists, these = situations too could be seen as management operations executed over a = different protocol (the operator-manipulates-the-hardware-protocol). In = this case the system-internal client making config updates is = responsible for ensuring running stays valid at all times. Best Regards, /jan > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:47 AM > To: 'netmod@ietf.org ' > > Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02 > =20 > Hello, > I did a detailed review of the system draft. My comments questions are = below. > Regards Balazs > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =20 > General) > I think this work is important and valuable, but it needs quite a lot = improvements. > =20 > The term system-configuration is used confusingly. Does=20 > system-configuration reside in the datastore only or can it > reside in the datastore too? If system-configuration is = copied by > the client (+) into the datastore is = it > still system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the = system. > [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. > System configuration is provided by the device in datastore, = though I think it may also be present in with = origin=3D=E2=80=9Dsystem=E2=80=9D. > If it is copied/pasted into , the copied configuration in = should not be called as =E2=80=9Csystem configuration=E2=80=9D. > But I think it=E2=80=99s okay to say something like =E2=80=9Ccopy = system configuration into =E2=80=9D, the object to be copied is = system configuration which is defined in . > BALAZS2: So the definition of system-config is: > System configuration: Configuration that is provided by the system = itself. It is the configuration that is stored in the datastore = or the configuration data stored in the datastore with = origin=3Dsystem. > This means that=20 > Some terminology is needed to indicate that you mean a specific data = node > IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. The same data node (according to the path in = the > data tree) in different datastores need to be referenced separately. > [Qiufang]Cross-datastores references is not the intention here. > Any suggestions to make it clear or what does the terminology looks = like in your mind? > =20 > Does the solution allow conditional system configuration?=20 > (E.g., if the client creates an OSPF interface the system inserts a = child leaf into it) > [Qiufang] Yes, it does. System configurations which are provided and = activated based on specific conditions being met in a system, it is = defined as =E2=80=9CConditionally-Active system configuration=E2=80=9D. > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02.txt#s= ection-2.2 = describes this kind of system configuration. > =20 > 1.1) If system shares the same schema as running that would force it = to > populate mandatory nodes. That might be a problem.=20 > State that mandatory or min-elements might not be enforced in = . > [Qiufang] I think that mandatory or min/max-elements nodes should be = enforced in . There should be no exceptions. > What=E2=80=99s the problem that you think might happen? > 1.3) =E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of configurations defined in = =E2=80=9D > However it also states: The contents of datastore are = read-only > These seem to contradict. Please clarify. > [Qiufang]It is confusing, indeed. When it says the contents of = datastore are read-only, I mean is a read-only = datastore, e.g., an operation towards should be = refused. But the client can overwrite values of configurations defined = in by writing new values in , which will take = precedence over initial values set by the system. > How about this: > OLD:=E2=80=9D client may overwrite values of configurations defined in = =E2=80=9D > NEW:=E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of configurations defined in = by configuring the intended values in .=E2=80=9D > BALAZS2: > New is good, but use the word override instead of overwrite. We = don=E2=80=99t actually change the existing values, rather providing = another value in that will have precedence. > 1.4) Shoudn't copy-config also be effected? Copy-config=20 > might also need system configured items. It should be mentioned that = the same > "resolution" is also needed after a node-restart. > [Qiufang] Are you suggesting to augment copy-config with = =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter also? > This operation is used to replace the target configuration, so you = also want the server to write missing referenced system nodes = automatically after the full replacement. > But is this still a =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D? Copy usually means = the same to me. Do you have any use cases in your mind? > I think we need further discussion, or let=E2=80=99s see if anyone has = any other comments on this. > BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration from a file to = running, you will still need parts of to make the new content = of valid. If you think of conditional-system-configuration the = above is specially true. > What does populate mean? Is it the same as "copy from system to = running" ? If > yes please use that terminology. Populate is not as specific. > [Qiufang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it. > =20 > 2) In the subchapters (and later) you use the terms provided, = activated, applied. I am not > sure what this means. Is a not yet applied item present in the = > datastore or only when it is applied? If I do a get-data on > will I receive not-applied data nodes? > [Qiufang] This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these = terms, if they are not defined in NMDA. > A data item will be present in once it is provided by the = system, regardless of whether it is applied. > Note that NMDA already defines the term =E2=80=9Capplied = configuration=E2=80=9D, which is configuration that is actively in use = by a device. > =E2=80=9CActivated=E2=80=9D should be removed and replaced with = =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D. > What is the difference between an applied and an activated data node = and an > applied but not activated data node? > [Qiufang]I think there is no difference, both mean that the = configuration is in use by a server. Or maybe you want to ask what is = the difference between a generated and applied data node and an = generated but not applied data node? Regardless it is applied = immediately when it=E2=80=99s generated, once system configuration is = generated, it will appear in . System configuration that are not = applied yet is unlikely to appear in , but it may also = depend on the device implementation. > I would rather see terminology like: > - is present in the datastore > - is not yet present in the datastore, but the system will = create it > in the datastore when a condition is fulfilled. > [Qiufang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next version. > How is it defined for specific schema nodes which kind of system-data = it is ? > Free English text?=20 > Is it needed to define this formally or is it enough if the server = knows this? > [Qiufang] Current draft doesn=E2=80=99t define any specific schema to = indicate which kind of system-data it is. > Although this work tries to explore all different kinds of system = configuration, I don=E2=80=99t see a compelling reason to define a = dedicated schema to identify each kind. > But I think that the client can understand each kind of system = configuration by some ways, e.g., Configuration which is only present in = and not is inactive-until-referenced, and = configuration which is generated and present in when a specific = feature is enabled is conditionally-active system configuration. > 2.2) Isn't the best example for this, when the functionality is = licensed and > the license key is inserted? > [Qiufang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active system = configuration, one for hardware-related resource condition driven, and = the other for software-related functionality resource driven.=20 > Are you saying that QoS is not a good example? There used to be some = discussion, I think we all agree that when QoS feature is enabled, QoS = related system configuration will be generated. But licensing a = functionality could also be the case from my perspective.=20 > =E2=80=9CI agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. = create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically = created inside that policy).=E2=80=9D > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vkcgf9J6dJU/ = > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmbQX4yPwWCs/ = =20 > 3.1) is also read-only so why is that better to = store > deletable data ? Did you mean that system-config originated data = cannot be > delete even if it is copied over to running? Is that true both for = explicit > NBI originated copy and copy due to resolve-system? > [Qiufang]I believe that this was discussed both on the mail list and = at NETMOD's interim meeting last October. > A client can configure/override a system-instantiated object in = , it can also delete it from ( and I agree with you = that once it=E2=80=99s present in we cannot call it =E2=80=9Csys= tem configuration=E2=80=9D actually, and the value initialized by the = system is overwritten even it=E2=80=99s the same value). > But anyway the contents defined in will be merged into = and . Therefore there is no way to delete a = system configuration which is defined in . > But can be used to initialize , and once = it=E2=80=99s deleted from , it is totally deleted from the = device. > And to answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in = cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, it=E2=80=99s= true both for explicit copy and copy due to resolve-system parameter. > 3.2) If something was populated/copied over to running/candidate = will/should > any changed system values be copied over again thereby updating the > running/candidate datastores? > Can this result in the running becoming invalid? > [Qiufang]Are you asking will any changes in be reflected into = /? > That=E2=80=99s a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don=E2=80=99= t think that will result in becoming invalid, since the = contents in keep unchanged. > On the contrary, I think if the update being reflected into = MAY cause to be invalid. > I don=E2=80=99t think all the update in datastore should be = reflected into , e.g., an intentional override operation should = not care the updated system-instantiated leaf instance value. > Since this document defines a datastore, the client can use = YANG notification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect = the update into by itself if needed. Does this make sense?=20 > =20 > 4.1) You write=20 > "The client may reference nodes defined in , overwrite values > of configurations defined in " > IMHO the data nodes in and are 2 different things = even > if they reside on the same path in the data tree. You need to find > terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in = different > datastores. The current terminology is confusing, I need to guess = which > datastore you mean. I think this guessing process might hide problems. > Do you mean here: "The client may reference nodes defined in = if they are > copied into / as a result of an explicit copy or > resolve-system parameter." For me referencing a data node in running = and > referencing a data node in (even if they share the same = address in > the data tree) are 2 separate things. I don't think you want to create = a > reference that point between datastores. > Do you mean here: "overwrite values of the data nodes that were = created by > copying from the datastore." > [Qiufang] Maybe I=E2=80=99ve caused some confusion. > Forget the datastore for the moment. The client usually has = the desire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of = system configurations, right? > The datastore only contains those which are actively in = use, there is no standard mechanism for the client to see what system = configuration is available in a server. > is defined as a standard mechanism to allow the client to = retrieve system configuration. So that it can reference/overwrite system = configuration, by the client writing configuration to that = overrides/copies the system configuration in .=20 > is only defined to retrieve available system configuration. > " MAY overwrite and/or extend " this means that the > data nodes in system are modified although they are readOnly. > Is this what you mean? Clarify! > [Qiufang] itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification = (e.g., ) towards datastore should be rejected. > But this doesn=E2=80=99t mean there is no way to overwrite/extend = system configuration. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting = and addition. > I will see how to make it clear in the next version. > BALAZS2: Again as I understand it: we do not overwrite system = configuration, we might overwrite data nodes in running that were = originally copied from the datastore. > "Note that only aware clients copy > referenced system nodes from " > How does the server know if the client is system-aware? It would be = better to > state something like: > 'In order for the system configuration to affect validation the client = needs to > either use the resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy system = configuration > into running' > [Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says something similar to your = proposal.=20 > Sec4.1:=E2=80=9D Clients MUST either > explicitly configure system-defined nodes in or use the > "resolve-system" parameter.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Last para: The server has no way to know if the client is system = aware. Once > the data nodes are copied into there is no need to say more. > [Qiufang] There is no need for the server to understand if the client = is aware. > But I=E2=80=99ll think it important to state in the draft that the = copied configuration driven by the =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D will = also be returned in a read back of datastore, and this = behavior also applies to legacy clients, to avoid any NBC issues. > 4.2 > "If the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the = server > MUST NOT modify in any way not specified by the client." > I very strongly OBJECT.=20 > - It is a bad idea.=20 > - This is a big NBC change to Netconf/YANG.=20 > - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) depend on the capability to modify = . They > have data nodes where it is stated that list entries are not created = by the client. > - This would need a revision 2 of YANG. > - It is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work around it. > The system instantiates an onboard client to do the changes AND the = system > prohibits the change for other clients. > However this is just a more complicated way of stating that the system = itself > modifies running; we gain nothing but make the world more complicated. > [Qiufang]When we first start this work, a lot of folks agree that = clients will benefit from a server which will not do anything the client = doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly ask for. > We usually want a read-back of contains only what was = explicitly sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the = objectives stated in the draft. > But I=E2=80=99ve seen your points here. Let=E2=80=99s see if there is = any other comments or suggestions. Otherwise I=E2=80=99d prefer to = change this with a recommendation behavior. > 4.3 > Paragraph-1 sentence 2 & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you = configure > something in running it becomes part of running independent of this = draft. > [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. These can be removed. > Mention that the system itself can also copy over parts or the = complete > system configuration into running.=20 > [Qiufang] Sure, will do, thanks! > 4.4 > In some cases, a server may allow some parts of system configuration > to be modified. List keys in system configuration can't be changed > by a client, but other descendant nodes in a list entry may be > modifiable or non-modifiable. > =20 > This contradicts the statement that the datastore is = readOnly. > [Qiufang] See my clarification above, will see how to refine this = statement. > "Client configuration statements in take precedence over = system > configuration nodes in " > =20 > Instead of hiding this sentence in the middle of a subchapter, there = should be > a separate chapter about merging running and system into intended, = stating that running has precedence. > This a tier 1 important statement ! > There could be some interesting corner cases. > [Qiufang] Okay, noted. > Once the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is it there = is lost, > so terms like "client configuration" are hard to understand. That = sounds more > like a use-case than a rule. > [Qiufang] Sure, I will just say =E2=80=9Cconfiguration defined in = =E2=80=9D. Is this better? > BALAZS2: Yes > "While modifying (overriding) system configuration nodes may be > supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a system > configuration node." > =20 > Once the node is in the datastore if it is not mandatory it = is > possible to remove it. What prevents it? What if it was the client = that copied > the configuration into ? Is the client forbidden to remove = something > that it created itself? I don't think so. > [Qiufang] No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it = created itself. > But even the node is removed from , what=E2=80=99s defined in = datastore can still be merged into and applied by = the device. > Thus there is no mechanism for deleting a system configuration node = from the device=E2=80=99s perspective. Make sense? > BALAZS2: Makes sense and I agree, but I would propose the wording: > "While modifying (overriding) system configuration with data nodes in = the datastore may be > supported by a server, there is no mechanism for deleting a > configuration node from the datastore." > =20 > 5. > "datastore does not have to persist across reboots." > 'I would say: The content of the datastore is removed at reboot and > re-created by the system with the same or changed content.' > IMHO it is important to state that there will be some reasonable = content in the > datastore even if it might have changed. > [Qiufang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft is that reboots = will cause the contents of to be lost. > I did not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause = contents change in the datastore after re-loading/re-creating. = But this is obviously true from my perspective. > BALAZS2: The re-0creation of (some) system configuration is what I am = missing after a reboot. > 7.1 > "Comment: How does a RESTCONF client know if the RESTCONF server > implements the "resolve-system" parameter?" > Make it a capability in the hello message like with-defaults. > [Qiufang] I am thinking that maybe no need to define a capability = identifier, and YANG library can also help for RESTCONF client. > RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUST support the = datastore and MUST implement the ietf-yang-library module. > It also states: > =E2=80=9D A RESTCONF client can discover which datastores and YANG = modules the > server supports by reading the YANG library information from the > operational state datastore.=E2=80=9D > Make sense? > BALAZS2: Not yet. The resolve-system parameter might be supported = without a datastore as I understand. True? > SO does the support for the YANG module indicate the support for the = resolve-system parameter? Isn=E2=80=99t that an overkill to use YANG = modules to indicate support for a protocol capability? It might work, = but is that the right way to do it? > 7.2 > The placement of resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be = inside the > element. > [Qiufang] Good catch! I=E2=80=99ve fixed in my local version. Thanks, = Balazs. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod = --Apple-Mail=_1D969560-B151-4FB7-8B21-E2083C0204AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello= Bal=C3=A1zs, Qiufang,

    I've added some comments below as JANL.

    Hi, Balazs,
    Thanks = for your thorough review and valuable comments!
    To be = brief, I will incorporate some of them to the update, but I think there = are still a couple of comments that need further discussion, = like:
    • Terminology to = differentiate between the same(-path) data nodes in different = datastores(e.g., system and running).
    BALAZS2: MY best idea is to ALWAYS say:
              &nb= sp;    The =E2=80=9Cinterface data node in <running>=E2=80=9D
              &nb= sp;    =E2=80=9C/running/interfaces/interface/name=E2=80=9D  - so prefix the = datastore name to the path

    JANL: Actually, = I think this notation is rather confusing. How about = :running:/interfaces/interface/name ?

    • Should = =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D operation also be augmented to support = =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter?
    BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a complete configuration = from a file to running, you will still need parts of <system> to = make the new content of <running> = valid.

    JANL: I think this makes = sense.

    • The potential NBC issue behind this principle: If = the "resolve-system" parameter is not given by the client, the server = MUST NOT modify <running> in any way not specified by the = client.
    BALAZS2: I very strongly oppose this = restriction because it is: a bad idea, unenforceable, NBC and would be a = problem for other SDOs.

    JANL: I could = accept watering down MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT.

    • Will the update of = <system> be reflected into <running>? If not, will this = cause an invalid <running> datastore?
    BALAZS2: I see this similar as an upgrade problem. = Following RFC7950 section 11 rules: During an upgrade you may obsolete a = schema node, this remove it, or you may add a default value. Both = changes may make an existing configuration invalid. System configuration = should also be changed only very carefully because it may cause an = invalid configuration, in which case the change to system-configuration = probably should be rejected / not-allowed. =  

    JANL: At system upgrade, I think = autoconfig (system modifying its own configuration) is acceptable. Such = changes could be seen as actions made by a system-internal = client.

    Automatic updates in running is a tricky problem. E.g. = will you remove configuration of an interface if the HW is removed? = There might be a lot of data nodes configured based on it. There might = be leafrefs pointing at the = interface.

    JANL: As many = of you know, I'm not particularly happy about such changes (I prefer the = configuration to be left intact, but the oper state to change to = down/hardware-missing, etc) but if someone insists, these situations too = could be seen as management operations executed over a different = protocol (the operator-manipulates-the-hardware-protocol). In this case = the system-internal client making config updates is responsible for = ensuring running stays valid at all times.

    Best Regards,
    /jan



    From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Bal=C3=A1zs = Lengyel
    Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 = 2:47 AM
    To: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>
    Subject: [netmod] Balazs Review of = draft-ma-netmod-with-system-02
     
    Hello,
    I did a detailed review of the system draft. My = comments questions are below.
    Regards Balazs
     
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
     
    General)
    I think this work is important and valuable, but = it needs quite a lot improvements.
     
    The term system-configuration is used = confusingly. Does 
    system-configuration = reside in the <system> datastore only or can it
    reside in the = <running> datastore too? If system-configuration is copied by
    the client = (<get-data>+<edit-config>) into the <running> = datastore is it
    still = system-configuration? It is set by the client this time not the = system.
    [Qiufang]= Yes, I agree.
    System = configuration is provided by the device in <system> datastore, = though I think it may also be present in <operational> with = origin=3D=E2=80=9Dsystem=E2=80=9D.
    If it is copied/pasted into <running>, the = copied configuration in <running> should not be called as = =E2=80=9Csystem configuration=E2=80=9D.
    But I = think it=E2=80=99s okay to say something like =E2=80=9Ccopy system = configuration into <running>=E2=80=9D, the object to be copied is = system configuration which is defined in <system>.
    BALAZS2: So the definition of system-config is:
    System configuration:  Configuration that is = provided by the system itself. It is the configuration that is stored in = the <system> datastore or the configuration data stored in the = <operational> datastore with origin=3Dsystem.
    This means that 
    Some terminology is needed = to indicate that you mean a specific data node
    IN A SPECIFIC DATASTORE. = The same data node (according to the path in the
    data tree) in different = datastores need to be referenced separately.
    [Qiufang]Cross-datastores references is = not the intention here.
    Any suggestions to make it clear or what does the terminology = looks like in your mind?
     
    Does the solution allow conditional system = configuration? 
    (E.g.,  if the client = creates an OSPF interface the system inserts a child leaf into it)
    [Qiufang] Yes, it does. System = configurations which are provided and activated based on specific = conditions being met in a system, it is defined as = =E2=80=9CConditionally-Active system configuration=E2=80=9D.
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ma-netmod-with-syst= em-02.txt#section-2.2 describes = this kind of system configuration.
     
    1.1) If system shares the same schema as running = that would force it to
    populate mandatory nodes.  That might be a problem. 
    State that mandatory or = min-elements might not be enforced in <system>.
    [Qiufang] I think that mandatory or = min/max-elements nodes should be enforced in <system>. There = should be no exceptions.
    What=E2=80=99s the problem that you think might = happen?
    1.3) = =E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of configurations defined in = <system>=E2=80=9D
    However it also states: The contents of <system> = datastore are read-only
    These = seem to contradict. Please clarify.
    [Qiufang]It is confusing, indeed. When it says the contents = of <system> datastore are read-only, I mean <system> is a = read-only datastore, e.g., an <edit-config> operation towards = <system> should be refused.  But the client can overwrite = values of configurations defined in <system> by writing new values = in <running>, which will take precedence over initial values set = by the system.
    How about this:
    OLD:=E2=80=9D client may overwrite values = of configurations defined in <system>=E2=80=9D
    NEW:=E2=80=9Cclient may overwrite values of = configurations defined in <system> by configuring the intended = values in <running>.=E2=80=9D
    BALAZS2:
    New is = good, but use the word override instead of overwrite. We don=E2=80=99t = actually change the existing values, rather providing another value in = <running> that will have precedence.
    1.4) Shoudn't = copy-config also be effected? Copy-config 
    might also need system = configured items. It should be mentioned that the same
    "resolution" is also = needed after a node-restart.
    [Qiufang] Are you suggesting to augment copy-config with = =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D parameter also?
    This operation is used to = replace the target configuration, so you also want the server to write = missing referenced system nodes automatically after the full = replacement.
    But is = this still a =E2=80=9Ccopy-config=E2=80=9D? Copy usually means the same = to me. Do you have any use cases in your mind?
    I think = we need further discussion, or let=E2=80=99s see if anyone has any other = comments on this.
    BALAZS2: IMO yes. If you copy a = complete configuration from a file to running, you will still need parts = of <system> to make the new content of <running> valid. If = you think of conditional-system-configuration the above is specially = true.
    What does = populate mean? Is it the same as "copy from system to running" ? If
    yes please use that = terminology. Populate is not as specific.
    [Qiufang] Sure, thanks. I will reword it.
     
    2) In the subchapters (and = later) you use the terms provided, activated, applied. I am not
    sure what this means. Is a = not yet applied item present in the <system>
    datastore or only when it = is applied? If I do a get-data on <system>
    will I receive not-applied = data nodes?
    [Qiufang]= This might be confusing. I will try to define/delete these terms, if = they are not defined in NMDA.
    A data item will be present in <system> once = it is provided by the system, regardless of whether it is applied.
    Note = that NMDA already defines the term =E2=80=9Capplied configuration=E2=80=9D= , which is configuration that is actively in use by a device.
    =E2=80=9CActivated=E2=80=9D should be removed and replaced = with =E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D.
    What is the difference between an applied and an = activated data node and an
    applied but not activated data node?
    [Qiufang]I think there is = no difference, both mean that the configuration is in use by a server. = Or maybe you want to ask what is the difference between a generated and = applied data node and an generated but not applied data node? Regardless = it is applied immediately when it=E2=80=99s generated, once system = configuration is generated, it will appear in <system>. System = configuration that are not applied yet is unlikely to appear in = <operational>, but it may also depend on the device = implementation.
    I = would rather see terminology like:
    - is present in the <system> datastore
    - is not yet present in = the <system> datastore, but the system will create it
    in the <system> = datastore when a condition is fulfilled.
    [Qiufang]Sure, will try to make it clear in next = version.
    How is it = defined for specific schema nodes which kind of system-data it is ?
    Free English text? 
    Is it needed to define = this formally or is it enough if the server knows this?
    [Qiufang] Current draft = doesn=E2=80=99t define any specific schema to indicate which kind of = system-data it is.
    Although= this work tries to explore all different kinds of system configuration, = I don=E2=80=99t see a compelling reason to define a dedicated schema to = identify each kind.
    But I think that the client can understand each = kind of system configuration by some ways, e.g., Configuration which is = only present in <system> and not <operational> is  = inactive-until-referenced, and configuration which is generated and = present in <system> when a specific feature is enabled is = conditionally-active system configuration.
    2.2) Isn't the best = example for this, when the functionality is licensed and
    the license key is = inserted?
    [Qiufang]Sec.2.2 gives two examples for conditionally-active = system configuration, one for hardware-related resource condition = driven, and the other for software-related functionality resource = driven. 
    Are you saying =
that QoS is not a good example? There used to be some discussion, I =
think we all agree that when QoS feature is enabled, QoS related system =
configuration will be generated. But licensing a functionality could =
also be the case from my perspective. 
    =E2=80=9C=
I agree there can be dynamically added system config (e.g. =
create a new qos policy, and some queue list entries are automatically =
created inside that policy).=E2=80=9D
    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/ERmwCg6fVkPtbYn_Vk= cgf9J6dJU/
    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/919hV5ql3aI87ymvmb= QX4yPwWCs/    
    3.1) = <factory-default> is also read-only so why is that better to = store
    deletable data ? Did = you mean that system-config originated data cannot be
    delete even if it is = copied over to running? Is that true both for explicit
    NBI originated copy and = copy due to resolve-system?
    [Qiufang]I believe that this was discussed both on = the mail list and at NETMOD's interim meeting last October.
    A = client can configure/override a system-instantiated object in = <running>, it can also delete it from <running>( and I agree = with you that once it=E2=80=99s present in <running> we cannot = call it =E2=80=9Csystem configuration=E2=80=9D actually, and the value initialized by = the system is overwritten even it=E2=80=99s the same value).
    But = anyway the contents defined in <system> will be merged into = <intended> and <operational>. Therefore there is no way to = delete a system configuration which is defined in <system>.
    But = <factory-default> can be used to initialize <running>, and = once it=E2=80=99s deleted from <running>, it is totally deleted = from the device.
    And to = answer your question, yes, system configuration defined in = <system> cannot be deleted even it is copied over to running, = it=E2=80=99s true both for explicit copy and copy due to resolve-system = parameter.
    3.2) If = something was populated/copied over to running/candidate will/should
    any changed system values = be copied over again thereby updating the
    running/candidate datastores?
    Can this result in the = running becoming invalid?
    [Qiufang]Are you asking will any changes in <system> be = reflected into <running>/<candidate>?
    That=E2=80= =99s a good question! Currently I suppose no, and I don=E2=80=99t think = that will result in <running> becoming invalid, since the contents = in <running> keep unchanged.
    On the contrary, I think if the update being = reflected into <running> MAY cause <running> to be = invalid.
    I = don=E2=80=99t think all the update in <system> datastore should be = reflected into <running>, e.g., an intentional override operation = should not care the updated system-instantiated leaf instance value.
    Since = this document defines a <system> datastore, the client can use = YANG notification to aware any system configuration updates, and reflect = the update into <running> by itself if needed. Does this make = sense? 
     
    4.1)  = You write 
    "The client may reference = nodes defined in <system>, overwrite values
       of = configurations defined in <system>"
    IMHO the data nodes in <running> and = <system> are 2 different things even
    if they reside on the same path in the data = tree. You need to find
    terminology to differentiate between the same(-path) data = nodes in different
    datastores.= The current terminology is confusing, I need to guess which
    datastore you mean. I = think this guessing process might hide problems.
    Do you mean here: "The = client may reference nodes defined in <system> if they are
    copied into = <running>/<candidate> as a result of an explicit copy or
    resolve-system parameter." = For me referencing a data node in running and
    referencing a data node in = <system> (even if they share the same address in
    the data tree) are 2 = separate things. I don't think you want to create a
    reference that point = between datastores.
    Do = you mean here: "overwrite values of the data nodes that were created = by
    copying from the = <system> datastore."
    [Qiufang] Maybe I=E2=80=99ve caused some = confusion.
    Forget = the <system> datastore for the moment. The client usually has the = desire to reference a system-defined node, or overwrite values of system = configurations, right?
    The <operational> datastore only contains = those which are actively in use, there is no standard mechanism for the = client to see what system configuration is available in a server.
    <system> is defined as a standard mechanism to allow = the client to retrieve system configuration. So that it can = reference/overwrite system configuration, by the client writing = configuration to <running> that overrides/copies the system = configuration in <system>. 
    <system> is only defined to retrieve available system = configuration.
    "<running> MAY overwrite and/or extend <system>" = this means that the
    data = nodes in system are modified although they are readOnly.
    Is this what you mean? = Clarify!
    [Qiufang]= <system> itself is read-only. Any attempts to modification (e.g., = <edit-config>) towards <system> datastore should be = rejected.
    But = this doesn=E2=80=99t mean there is no way to overwrite/extend system = configuration. Sec4.4 illustrates the details about overwriting and = addition.
    I will = see how to make it clear in the next version.
    BALAZS2: Again  as I understand it: we do not = overwrite system configuration, we might overwrite data nodes in running = that were originally copied from the <system> datastore.
    "Note that only = <system> aware clients copy
       referenced system nodes from = <system>"
    How does = the server know if the client is system-aware? It would be better to
    state something like:
    'In order for the system = configuration to affect validation the client needs to
    either use the = resolve-system parameter or explicitly copy system configuration
    into running'
    [Qiufang]Yes, the draft already says =
something similar to your proposal. 
    Sec4.1:=E2=80=9D Clients MUST either
       explicitly configure system-defined nodes in =
<running> or use the
       "resolve-system" parameter.=E2=80=9D
     
    Last para: The server has no way to know if the = client is system aware. Once
    the data nodes are copied into <running> = there is no need to say more.
    [Qiufang] There is no need for the server to = understand if the client is <system> aware.
    But = I=E2=80=99ll think it important to state in the draft that the copied = configuration driven by the =E2=80=9Cresolve-system=E2=80=9D will also = be returned in a read back of <running> datastore, and this = behavior also applies to legacy clients, to avoid any NBC issues.
    4.2
    "If the "resolve-system" = parameter is not given by the client, the server
       MUST NOT = modify <running> in any way not specified by the client."
    I very strongly = OBJECT. 
    - It is a bad idea. 
    - This is a big NBC change = to Netconf/YANG. 
    - Other SDOs (3GPP, O-RAN) = depend on the capability to modify <running>. They
    have data nodes where it = is stated that list entries are not created by the client.
    - This would need a = revision 2 of YANG.
    - It = is also unenforceable. It would be possible to work around it.
    The system instantiates an = onboard client to do the changes AND the system
    prohibits the change for = other clients.
    However = this is just a more complicated way of stating that the system = itself
    modifies running; we = gain nothing but make the world more complicated.
    [Qiufang]When we first = start this work, a lot of folks agree that clients will benefit from a = server which will not do anything the client doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly = ask for.
    We = usually want a read-back of <running> contains only what was = explicitly sent by the clients. This even used to be one of the = objectives stated in the draft.
    But I=E2=80=99ve seen your points here. Let=E2=80=99= s see if there is any other comments or suggestions. Otherwise I=E2=80=99d= prefer to change this with a recommendation behavior.
    4.3
    Paragraph-1 sentence 2 = & 3 are trivial thus not needed. If you configure
    something in running it = becomes part of running independent of this draft.
    [Qiufang] Yes, I agree. = These can be removed.
    Mention that the system itself  can also = copy over parts or the complete
    system configuration into running. 
    [Qiufang] Sure, will do, = thanks!
    4.4
    In some cases, a server = may allow some parts of system configuration
       to be = modified.  List keys in system configuration can't be changed
       by a client, = but other descendant nodes in a list entry may be
       modifiable or = non-modifiable.
       
     This contradicts the = statement that the <system> datastore is readOnly.
    [Qiufang] See my = clarification above, will see how to refine this statement.
    "Client = configuration statements in <running> take precedence over = system
    configuration nodes = in <system>"
     
    Instead of hiding this = sentence in the middle of a subchapter, there should be
    a separate chapter about = merging running and system into intended, stating that running has = precedence.
    This a = tier 1 important statement !
    There could be some interesting corner = cases.
    [Qiufang]= Okay, noted.
    Once = the data is in running, AFAIK the knowledge about why is it there is = lost,
    so terms like = "client configuration" are hard to understand. That sounds more
    like a use-case than a = rule.
    [Qiufang]= Sure, I will just say =E2=80=9Cconfiguration defined in = <running>=E2=80=9D. Is this better?
    BALAZS2: Yes
    "While modifying (overriding) system = configuration nodes may be
       supported by a server, there is no = mechanism for deleting a system
       configuration node."
       
    Once the node is in the = <running> datastore if it is not mandatory it is
    possible to remove it. = What prevents it? What if it was the client that copied
    the configuration into = <running>? Is the client forbidden to remove something
    that it created itself? I = don't think so.
    [Qiufang]= No, the client is not forbidden to remove something that it created = itself.
    But = even the node is removed from <running>, what=E2=80=99s defined in = <system> datastore can still be merged into <intended> and = applied by the device.
    Thus there is no mechanism for deleting a system = configuration node from the device=E2=80=99s perspective. Make = sense?
    BALAZS2: Makes sense = and I agree, but I would propose the wording:
    "While modifying = (overriding) system configuration with data nodes in the <running> = datastore may be
       supported by a server, there is no mechanism for = deleting a
       configuration node from the <system> = datastore."
     
    5.
    "datastore does not have = to persist across reboots."
    'I would say: The content of the datastore is = removed at reboot and
    re-created by the system with the same or changed = content.'
    IMHO it = is important to state that there will be some reasonable content in = the
    <system> = datastore even if it might have changed.
    [Qiufang] Sure. What I have mentioned in the draft = is that reboots will cause the contents of <system> to be = lost.
    I did = not mention something in the draft that reboots will also cause contents = change in the <system> datastore after re-loading/re-creating. But = this is obviously true from my perspective.
    BALAZS2: The re-0creation of (some) system = configuration is what I am missing after a reboot.
    7.1
    "Comment: How does a = RESTCONF client know if the RESTCONF server
       implements = the "resolve-system" parameter?"
    Make it a capability in the hello message like = with-defaults.
    [Qiufang] I am thinking =
that maybe no need to define a capability identifier, and YANG library =
can also help for RESTCONF client.
    RFC8527 says that an NMDA-compliant RESTCONF server MUST =
support the <operational> datastore and MUST implement the =
ietf-yang-library module.
    It =
also states:
    =E2=80=9D   A RESTCONF client can discover which =
datastores and YANG modules the
       server supports by reading the YANG library =
information from the
       operational state datastore.=E2=80=9D
    Make sense?
    BALAZS2: Not yet. The resolve-system parameter might be =
supported without a <system> datastore as I understand. True?
    SO does the support for the YANG module indicate the support =
for the resolve-system parameter? Isn=E2=80=99t that an overkill to use =
YANG modules to indicate support for a protocol capability? It might =
work, but is that the right way to do it?
    7.2
    The placement of = resolve-system is sometimes incorrect. It shall be inside the
    <edit-config> = element.
    [Qiufang] Good catch! = I=E2=80=99ve fixed in my local version. Thanks, Balazs.
     
    _______________________________________________
    netmod mailing list
    netmod@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

    = --Apple-Mail=_1D969560-B151-4FB7-8B21-E2083C0204AF-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 14:21:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE963A10D5; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:21:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.658 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.658 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5h6LIfxSrhSm; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfcpa.amsl.com (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 949CF3A1117; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfcpa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 499) id B1C784C1D2; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:20:32 -0700 (PDT) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, andy@yumaworks.com From: RFC Errata System Cc: rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org, iesg@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 21:21:22 -0000 The following errata report has been held for document update for RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899 -------------------------------------- Status: Held for Document Update Type: Editorial Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair Date Reported: 2022-03-29 Held by: RFC Editor Section: Appendix A Original Text ------------- o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines related to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the approved text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: Corrected Text -------------- o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines related to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the approved text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: Notes ----- https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ says: == Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was erroneously called the “Simplified BSD License” rather than the “Revised BSD License”, and many documents that refer to these provisions copied the erroneous name. The IETF Trust corrected the error on September 21, 2021. The license text itself was always that of the Revised BSD License and has not changed. == --VERIFIER NOTES-- Approved by John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and member of the IETF Trust). -------------------------------------- RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20) -------------------------------------- Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models Publication Date : October 2018 Author(s) : A. 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--_000_VI1PR0701MB235108BF0730FE7F768492DFF01F9VI1PR0701MB2351_-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 15:24:31 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3193A116B; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:24:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m12NfNsKsGoJ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A86B3A11AC; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:24:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648679038; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=Svw1lWfnn05h4Wvqli/vC/N3rNart7tmelNLiSsXyZo=; b=httL1OYxwta1TkdcjoZ8gxV61VByDc070XD436q+1hpbtojfg/ruNn6K1X16Vemc 0WpXQhNlZFPsU++VQQ91g5585Qt3Z9MCVl3aAra+ei1SDzKk+A3uPzwSKkrO2HNRA+4 g++4rYAxpLjCFrHnBZQ4jpXPbjf/bC51BtZpbb1o= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:23:58 +0000 Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Andy Bierman , rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org, IESG , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> To: RFC Errata System X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.30-54.240.48.92 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:24:14 -0000 If this Errata is accepted, does it mean that an Errata will be filed = for the thousands of RFCs that have been published since 2009 when the = error was introduce in RFC 5691? Kent=20 > On Mar 30, 2022, at 5:20 PM, RFC Errata System = wrote: >=20 > The following errata report has been held for document update=20 > for RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents = Containing YANG Data Models".=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > Status: Held for Document Update > Type: Editorial >=20 > Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair > Date Reported: 2022-03-29 > Held by: RFC Editor =20 >=20 > Section: Appendix A >=20 > Original Text > ------------- > o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD > License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines = related > to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that > the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the = approved > text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: >=20 > Corrected Text > -------------- > o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD > License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines = related > to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that > the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the = approved > text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: >=20 > Notes > ----- > https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ says: >=20 > =3D=3D > Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was = erroneously called the =E2=80=9CSimplified BSD License=E2=80=9D rather = than the =E2=80=9CRevised BSD License=E2=80=9D, and many documents that = refer to these provisions copied the erroneous name. The IETF Trust = corrected the error on September 21, 2021. The license text itself was = always that of the Revised BSD License and has not changed. > =3D=3D > --VERIFIER NOTES-- > Approved by John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and = member of the IETF Trust). >=20 > -------------------------------------- > RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of = Documents Containing YANG Data Models > Publication Date : October 2018 > Author(s) : A. Bierman > Category : BEST CURRENT PRACTICE > Source : Network Modeling > Area : Operations and Management > Stream : IETF >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Wed Mar 30 17:22:04 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fdd59b6ae-cd35013c-3ba8-4982-a492-6526b6bf2a1d-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F8C3A0745 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:22:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6MtTr5R0nZy for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE4F03A0687 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648686118; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Feedback-ID; bh=GDl4YD2566ZFsOKFqxoFHh9Hje0FTxHyZQoJV98OYjo=; b=kGz2aF1Tz5ZjUUElW5H8tu92Ygby/9nbDc9vDD7o9Qyn7gNmfzhK/vb2SFLyR6uV hSIUBp02DacuTH47AyOf1DYDUgQRXXJoZdwcIz8oh9UeAKHEyDWpyvXd4e9sCB4oFux QZEeirjcmiJE+MEyfZ7csunqJ0uT7zpugC38b0k0= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 00:21:58 +0000 References: <8F7D5127-E621-4920-BE30-89E1BF7E778D@tail-f.com> To: "netmod@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0100017fdd59b6ae-cd35013c-3ba8-4982-a492-6526b6bf2a1d-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.31-54.240.48.93 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Email Request X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 00:22:01 -0000 This is going to sound old-school, but please try to use standard = email-indentations when replying to others on this list. Exception, of = course, when top-posting, which is understandably preferred sometimes. Most SMTP-clients support indentation automatically, while others need = to be configured. It was nearly 15-years ago, back when I was using = Outlook, when someone in the IETF clued me in that Outlook had a = configurable option to set indents. Indentations, when supported by SMTP-clients, greatly facilitate = readability. Not only is the text successively-indented (physical = offsets), but also many times colorized (based on indent-level, per = client-prefs), and sometimes collapsible. Speaking of color, please do not use colors as it may cause = accessibility-issues: 1) some are color-blind (I for one have a = doppler-shift that makes RED very difficult to read), 2) colors don't = render well on all displays (e.g., dark-mode vs. light-mode), 3) colors = interferes with SMTP-client's color-preference settings. Thank you, Kent and Lou (NETMOD Chairs) From nobody Wed Mar 30 19:56:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C65F3A10D5; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RGWwEG24JFDi; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 612953A10C5; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35354425C194; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K-I4phg9IGIM; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (2603-8000-9603-b513-acd8-df73-2188-9c4d.res6.spectrum.com [IPv6:2603:8000:9603:b513:acd8:df73:2188:9c4d]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DBAFC425A344; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Sandy Ginoza Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DFD37874-5FFC-4BB9-93BA-25EC557687D1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:55:35 -0700 In-Reply-To: <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> Cc: RFC Editor , RFC Editor , mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Andy Bierman , "netmod@ietf.org" , IESG To: Kent Watsen References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 02:55:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DFD37874-5FFC-4BB9-93BA-25EC557687D1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Kent, I hope not. Per discussion with John Levine (Temporary RFC Series = Project Manager and member of the IETF Trust), we have marked this item = as Held for Document Update = . Thanks, Sandy=20 > On Mar 30, 2022, at 3:23 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > If this Errata is accepted, does it mean that an Errata will be filed = for the thousands of RFCs that have been published since 2009 when the = error was introduce in RFC 5691? >=20 > Kent=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 30, 2022, at 5:20 PM, RFC Errata System = wrote: >>=20 >> The following errata report has been held for document update=20 >> for RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents = Containing YANG Data Models".=20 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------- >> You may review the report below and at: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------- >> Status: Held for Document Update >> Type: Editorial >>=20 >> Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair >> Date Reported: 2022-03-29 >> Held by: RFC Editor =20 >>=20 >> Section: Appendix A >>=20 >> Original Text >> ------------- >> o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD >> License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines = related >> to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that >> the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the = approved >> text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: >>=20 >> Corrected Text >> -------------- >> o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD >> License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines = related >> to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that >> the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the = approved >> text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: >>=20 >> Notes >> ----- >> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ = says: >>=20 >> =3D=3D >> Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was = erroneously called the =E2=80=9CSimplified BSD License=E2=80=9D rather = than the =E2=80=9CRevised BSD License=E2=80=9D, and many documents that = refer to these provisions copied the erroneous name. The IETF Trust = corrected the error on September 21, 2021. The license text itself was = always that of the Revised BSD License and has not changed. >> =3D=3D >> --VERIFIER NOTES-- >> Approved by John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and = member of the IETF Trust). >>=20 >> -------------------------------------- >> RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20) >> -------------------------------------- >> Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of = Documents Containing YANG Data Models >> Publication Date : October 2018 >> Author(s) : A. Bierman >> Category : BEST CURRENT PRACTICE >> Source : Network Modeling >> Area : Operations and Management >> Stream : IETF >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 --Apple-Mail=_DFD37874-5FFC-4BB9-93BA-25EC557687D1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Kent,

    I hope not.  Per discussion with = John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and member of the IETF = Trust), we have marked this item as Held = for Document Update.

    Thanks,
    Sandy 


    On Mar 30, 2022, at 3:23 PM, Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> = wrote:

    If this Errata is accepted, does it = mean that an Errata will be filed for the thousands of RFCs that have = been published since 2009 when the error was introduce in RFC = 5691?

    Kent 


    On Mar = 30, 2022, at 5:20 PM, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

    The following errata report has been held for document = update 
    for RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and = Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models". 

    --------------------------------------
    You may review the report below and at:
    https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899
    --------------------------------------
    Status: = Held for Document Update
    Type: Editorial

    Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair = <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
    Date Reported: = 2022-03-29
    Held by: RFC Editor  

    Section: Appendix A

    Original = Text
    -------------
     o  License -- = verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD
      =   License in each YANG module or submodule.  Some guidelines = related
        to this requirement are described in = Section 3.1.  Make sure that
        the = correct year is used in all copyright dates.  Use the approved
        text from the latest TLP document, which can be = found at:

    Corrected Text
    --------------
     o  License -- verify = that the document contains the Revised BSD
        = License in each YANG module or submodule.  Some guidelines = related
        to this requirement are described in = Section 3.1.  Make sure that
        the = correct year is used in all copyright dates.  Use the approved
        text from the latest TLP document, which can be = found at:

    Notes
    -----
    https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5= / says:

    =3D=3D
    Note: in prior = versions of these provisions, the software license was erroneously = called the =E2=80=9CSimplified BSD License=E2=80=9D rather than the = =E2=80=9CRevised BSD License=E2=80=9D, and many documents that refer to = these provisions copied the erroneous name. The IETF Trust = corrected the error on September 21, 2021. The license text itself = was always that of the Revised BSD License and has not changed.
    =3D=3D
    --VERIFIER NOTES--
    Approved = by John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and member of the = IETF Trust).

    --------------------------------------
    RFC8407 = (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20)
    --------------------------------------
    Title =               : Guidelines for = Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models
    Publication Date    : October 2018
    Author(s)           : A. Bierman
    Category            : BEST = CURRENT PRACTICE
    Source           =    : Network Modeling
    Area       =          : Operations and Management
    Stream              : = IETF

    _______________________________________________
    netmod mailing list
    netmod@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c22ffb70-9136-4558-3c8c-08da1305b2d7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2022 11:00:42.1154 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: nUYtQMiaFMkC2wgqWSooBHecKKeKD88zumVkFBZE1ouOPlvp+yTxOFTHXzn0vggGxoEK+QaO8Rpms3EI8soZNA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5PR0701MB2291 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:00:54 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of mohamed.boucadair@orang= e.com =0A= Sent: 31 March 2022 06:31=0A= =0A= Hi Kent,=0A= =0A= There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review Checklist" :-= ), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I agree. There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets it wrong b= ut if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should have been inv= estigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the TLP was ma= de, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the right mailin= g lists.=0A= =0A= When I comment on an I-D to the effect that the TLP is out of date, then th= e response is that it is almost impossible to get the submission tool to ac= cept the correct TLP so authors go on including the out of date version, in= order to submit and I go on flagging it at submission and at Last Call. = But that is one for some other mailing list, I know not which.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= Med=0A= =0A= > -----Message d'origine-----=0A= > De : Kent Watsen =0A= > Envoy=E9 : jeudi 31 mars 2022 00:24=0A= > =C0 : RFC Errata System =0A= > Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; Andy=0A= > Bierman ; rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org; IESG=0A= > ; netmod@ietf.org=0A= > Objet : Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899)=0A= >=0A= > If this Errata is accepted, does it mean that an Errata will be filed=0A= > for the thousands of RFCs that have been published since 2009 when the=0A= > error was introduce in RFC 5691?=0A= >=0A= > Kent=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > > On Mar 30, 2022, at 5:20 PM, RFC Errata System editor.org> wrote:=0A= > >=0A= > > The following errata report has been held for document update for=0A= > > RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing= =0A= > YANG Data Models".=0A= > >=0A= > > --------------------------------------=0A= > > You may review the report below and at:=0A= > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899=0A= > >=0A= > > --------------------------------------=0A= > > Status: Held for Document Update=0A= > > Type: Editorial=0A= > >=0A= > > Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair Date=0A= > > Reported: 2022-03-29 Held by: RFC Editor=0A= > >=0A= > > Section: Appendix A=0A= > >=0A= > > Original Text=0A= > > -------------=0A= > > o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD=0A= > > License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines=0A= > related=0A= > > to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that= =0A= > > the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the=0A= > approved=0A= > > text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at:=0A= > >=0A= > > Corrected Text=0A= > > --------------=0A= > > o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD=0A= > > License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines=0A= > related=0A= > > to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that= =0A= > > the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the=0A= > approved=0A= > > text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at:=0A= > >=0A= > > Notes=0A= > > -----=0A= > > https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ says:= =0A= > >=0A= > > =3D=3D=0A= > > Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was= =0A= > erroneously called the =93Simplified BSD License=94 rather than the =93Re= vised=0A= > BSD License=94, and many documents that refer to these provisions copied= =0A= > the erroneous name. The IETF Trust corrected the error on September 21,= =0A= > 2021. The license text itself was always that of the Revised BSD License= =0A= > and has not changed.=0A= > > =3D=3D=0A= > > --VERIFIER NOTES--=0A= > > Approved by John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and=0A= > member of the IETF Trust).=0A= > >=0A= > > --------------------------------------=0A= > > RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20)=0A= > > --------------------------------------=0A= > > Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of=0A= > Documents Containing YANG Data Models=0A= > > Publication Date : October 2018=0A= > > Author(s) : A. Bierman=0A= > > Category : BEST CURRENT PRACTICE=0A= > > Source : Network Modeling=0A= > > Area : Operations and Management=0A= > > Stream : IETF=0A= > >=0A= > > _______________________________________________=0A= > > netmod mailing list=0A= > > netmod@ietf.org=0A= > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= =0A= =0A= ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________=0A= =0A= Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=0A= pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler=0A= a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=0A= Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci.=0A= =0A= This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law;=0A= they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.=0A= If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.=0A= As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.=0A= Thank you.=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Thu Mar 31 08:21:05 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fe090ca32-8f98b853-9b95-425c-945a-7c43289efa4b-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960F43A0925; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 08:21:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nvpsAO1i8Wjt; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 08:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 048873A1A89; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648740059; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=83ZFZ/lc+l0ZVHzmtLekaMXsOJ3qIV6aqZs4Qf/Lu8w=; b=X9lY049IHeI5bYgXBp6GjYaJJq32q59pu39CNES5YwD3AmWvnv7arM4FOmJpHTYQ cwaCZio5KIJ0qW+YHmxqqfQYJDlclKH1LhnnzPk7hDEFPNGgcSH1PP0GB+7IvkWOn30 HxwIZodIu9mxJRalQBXZWPf4Ifz0v2CjUs9D+zbM= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: <416FF15D-53E3-4E2F-ABDD-F3E25368E027@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:20:59 +0000 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <0100017fe090ca32-8f98b853-9b95-425c-945a-7c43289efa4b-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <0100017fb906d433-172359f0-01a8-4a82-8e25-8079bdafef76-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100017fbe472ae5-7153357c-10cc-4055-92c7-e06e03681e92-000000@email.amazonses.com> <416FF15D-53E3-4E2F-ABDD-F3E25368E027@cisco.com> To: "Jan Lindblad (jlindbla)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.31-54.240.8.96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Common etag, timestamp on all interfaces (draft-lindblad-netconf-transaction-id) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:21:04 -0000 [CC-ing NETCONF, as this discussion (and draft) belongs there. To = whomever replies to this message, please remove NETMOD from the CC-list. = Thanks!] Hi Jan, >> The same rules apply: >>=20 >> - ETag is a MUST, LastModified is a MAY >> - root-node is a MUST, inner-nodes is a MAY >=20 > I'm perfectly fine with this. Since we are in agreement maybe I should = just stop here.=20 The "rules" mentioned above are what RFC 8040 defines. The same rules = should apply to the NETCONF equivalent. Which is to say, the draft = that defines the NETCONF-equivalent should define support for both. > Since I noted that I haven't done a good job at explaining how the = ETag mechanism works, let me take the example below and explain how this = situation is avoided using ETags. Regarding the PROs and CONs of ETag vs LastModified, examples can be = constructed showing each being better in cases. As protocol-designers, = the choice should be given to deployments. Kent From nobody Thu Mar 31 09:55:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21173A1AB6 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:55:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oapP2mguBbSw for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B59BF3A173D for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 46836 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2022 16:55:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=b6f2.6245dd0d.k2203; bh=wxjqnWah9vH41A+I1g/tZe0M3reQtW4RzOwjJnidxqQ=; b=eTC95u5XSmoM+SLopGzejUYdiZqXdxbONInXZtI7Gp0wa85Z646ukF98LCBOxjCSYEDG/IPWWRf7MTOeBKGgiNAFuVYtVNqirD2qGWeen0SQJhfvIvbtD1N14SFIWGdJs0vZliLKr9NL2g/8zeUUbwX18Ekh80PPSMvIw2o92bDzjcXC9l0HJOO1yjNBeenOAUPcIskvxHM8E6DyOWE6RvTRzSe4ODsO2Wxu4Q2mO4HnKMJfS5sr1Fr9fp5pf7C12BQoNWv+fzzhfh+xrKEaz/KQGfzFPkQtcdB3YI8AfekN4neiSL7op7nwxcGY/v5yclRzs7Jg6MBdMQGAGSO6Ow== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 31 Mar 2022 16:55:41 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id E324B3A1EBF3; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCBB3A1EBD5; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: 31 Mar 2022 12:55:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "tom petch" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Kent Watsen" Cc: "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:55:49 -0000 > There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review Checklist" :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks. > > > > I agree. There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets it wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should have been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the right mailing lists. The fix to the TLP was my idea in the first place and it's not that big of a deal. If you follow the link and read that part of the TLP, the actual license has never changed. We just give it the correct name now. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Mar 31 10:11:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFEE3A1B5C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:11:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UO9BsG7zjvWG for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 325D63A1B57 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id x20so587021ybi.5 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:11:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nwPDWv5DDAjiUOCTuNyQuyw+aVcOc5hAjqntU1stFaQ=; b=n8zI8hNJbbRZ0+m2lXVYGhshkoqRBtOGVairEtvByvwS+xrKJj3ZsVDodbHCByYoOw UovecTLiWF5Tst1eTd7dvY/IfOzVgGOH8F78hjlWegHYwMNviI5cf1qre+1Su5zOrZRx iRWmOzE1NTrlKYiefRtX7I7/McdP1B7zqIp/SSjDO6wdYqREg1xqZzt6QbN6nvRswK1Q QSf/yHWI203k4Jr+Z1ig/NzAcIN8Y1XEFmOmzLanf6bwQJs2PzUb2iLifnboVmjoH3Vr 0+thQ8YO9+IBJjeyi+pz/xRf5kfGLXRVN0QJVqfqU0YYYPc7DiqjVTYW/WQnl+1aWjuC ukMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nwPDWv5DDAjiUOCTuNyQuyw+aVcOc5hAjqntU1stFaQ=; b=nK9dnwTA0E+5DbYJg0gIdXOn65VFUCNHhiJ1oZzgzUjO8Q4pq9BJg0acIwLoTC/yJL PyByneT2rr6xVt5/o5VdhrnN775KyJNZt/2QOHFwEKOsjjXU1kHkqJ6/UZ25TAaP6t18 YNdS3GpTbmCxUCNRSaxXaTb/TOiR9Jn7AV7lZeEijMeTubv6ZKbXe6D92r2FHwW+GieE sSVNKsw6cZ+/zKjwe05f5OuYD2Aj2i7c8REswOFecoS8JjOl2EXLaD8NY0E8+jHf7Y0n bBzdB7XpAM/EUcmCPcAcAWUD/KJb61DpjDkz5Zy/TA9iwydY36gVdWPezE5TXToeCWSz zlIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532P9Bnl5nIzCLosOcpk8xK+tnZsQ3hchOXgP4PMRPkYetM9sbZG heOc+gnZT8Q5Pi2qt5KoLKBdvWyin6B9nO7+hgW4pw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwQnkyyZbQkV3sU/rF30NNNNLHYgfomyI/+vS7HgyEUfk1Cv+dCrmJsN/gS5nGYjbzo1JeluMvncLe1GgtLU/k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:20e:b0:627:f1cb:a9ee with SMTP id j14-20020a056902020e00b00627f1cba9eemr4834257ybs.129.1648746690876; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:11:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:11:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: "John R. Levine" Cc: tom petch , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Kent Watsen , "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d5ab2805db86c0cc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:11:37 -0000 --000000000000d5ab2805db86c0cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:56 AM John R. Levine wrote: > > There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review Checklist" > :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks. > > > > > > > > I agree. There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets it > wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should have > been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the > TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the > right mailing lists. > > The fix to the TLP was my idea in the first place and it's not that big of > a deal. If you follow the link and read that part of the TLP, the actual > license has never changed. We just give it the correct name now. > > I agree the checklist in Appendix A should be updated. The corrected RFC (any RFC where Errata Exists) should be available online. Not erasing the published RFC, but with a link to rfcNNNN-current (where all accepted Errata is applied). > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly > > Andy > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000d5ab2805db86c0cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:56 AM John = R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrot= e:
    > There ar= e not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review Checklist" = :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks.
    >
    > <tp>
    >
    > I agree.=C2=A0 There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets = it wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should hav= e been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the = TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the ri= ght mailing lists.

    The fix to the TLP was my idea in the first place and it's not that big= of
    a deal.=C2=A0 If you follow the link and read that part of the TLP, the act= ual
    license has never changed.=C2=A0 We just give it the correct name now.


    I agree the checklist in Appendix A sh= ould be updated.

    The corrected RFC (any RFC where = Errata Exists) should be available online.
    Not erasing the publis= hed RFC, but with a link to rfcNNNN-current (where all accepted Errata is a= pplied).

    =C2=A0
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@tau= gh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly



    Andy
    =C2=A0
    _______________________________________________
    netmod mailing list
    netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648748743; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=YpZbvJ1pSzku2PbowjDtgBqKhEZgWeZSt8bNmWjfRL4=; b=YlRwj+WBiIxLMEcRqQOrYJsgT7wsry+fRwE7Uwjf46vQMmCe3tH4RU4PeEPlltS6 ISU0RgIRgzlBaZPlJdpIsnw3rAVNq8X69e9Hq99h/YwMsBHodupws8bfNxv9euXckxh +2EbCVZp1cgt2+sf3zhpA7+dp4ScqAQPJocw+cy0= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017fe1154a65-2daf3240-c428-4aeb-b43d-8f1fb2a61b3d-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A66D9658-59E2-4AB3-8331-ABB2557B5B6C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:45:43 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "John R. Levine" , "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Andy Bierman References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.31-54.240.48.95 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:45:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A66D9658-59E2-4AB3-8331-ABB2557B5B6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > The corrected RFC (any RFC where Errata Exists) should be available = online. > Not erasing the published RFC, but with a link to rfcNNNN-current = (where all accepted Errata is applied). +1 I would hope that web-based RFCs would either default to showing the = "current" RFC or provide an easy way for clients to be aware that a = "current" version is available and get a link to it. Kent --Apple-Mail=_A66D9658-59E2-4AB3-8331-ABB2557B5B6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

    The corrected RFC (any RFC where = Errata Exists) should be available online.
    Not erasing the published RFC, but = with a link to rfcNNNN-current (where all accepted Errata is = applied).

    +1

    I = would hope that web-based RFCs would either default to showing the = "current" RFC or provide an easy way for clients to be aware that a = "current" version is available and get a link to it.

    Kent


    = --Apple-Mail=_A66D9658-59E2-4AB3-8331-ABB2557B5B6C-- From nobody Thu Mar 31 11:29:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C5F3A1803 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o26HiwQID05V for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9B9B3A175E for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 64264 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2022 18:29:07 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=fb06.6245f2f3.k2203; bh=XUzX+keES4lcdnOZbicGzWNykCDaz79X7coOOlCASY0=; b=dp9HVe90wLZ5fM14pdEm1bC2XjrekOD7ykySuzIAh7ENNAYpkm4BUM/HIYCGLUt10fmnU9Fe+LEPAGzI/zAbDKFP9/i55YAe++2S9kVJ6aLLOGnYoZm+AMuDyZvqcbNapBvQ/Nwpj/2VnNPc8mUthm1/vzNDWo4gLeFJRY7B9AhWWAEN462cQYH6u56etMUvT5wtjN2fhHLxyMNU2fK6RWE6dQMxZ+vsq/oZf5yylR845l504uAFydBGMiPdJ/FSFjT1RxGW6cHJtukr8wJBkSbKx0mw8Ac0iJnY/CmRNs81wHbBFKw6+sbRS6JOpkPNAQPojxQsrIAyjg9QVykUAA== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 31 Mar 2022 18:29:07 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id DC1073A1FC2D; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7E43A1FC0E; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: 31 Mar 2022 14:29:05 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Kent Watsen" , "Andy Bierman" Cc: "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: <0100017fe1154a65-2daf3240-c428-4aeb-b43d-8f1fb2a61b3d-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> <0100017fe1154a65-2daf3240-c428-4aeb-b43d-8f1fb2a61b3d-000000@email.amazonses.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 18:29:15 -0000 > I would hope that web-based RFCs would either default to showing the "current" RFC or provide an easy way for clients to be aware that a "current" version is available and get a link to it. If you look at, say RFC 6376 at https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6376 There's four links to versions of the RFC. The fourth with the checkmark has errata applied, with links at the top to the individual errata. The regular HTML version has red "Errata Exist" at the top so you know to look for them. Take a look. R's, John From nobody Thu Mar 31 11:44:49 2022 Return-Path: <0100017fe14b3b69-8b9005e8-0ab7-4ea7-b314-443d11b5c639-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DA53A0063 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bkTmQl24HQxE for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEF0D3A1BBA for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1648752278; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=uaae7WvArpfe5QJhruvdfohJ/0iaYCRKap6huw7KbhQ=; b=B9Vmc+f3v8rVaxkQAFmD/aUE6C0mOXQEMyrDifTlLjeZZrKoppVyWGo+xCflVavr W7LJIa/QWS5i4BgOeB1XVBzQMPGsuWMMc+s8P/DREflD5Gh4yoNbgzRNkH7RN/FILjk mpxfiDTL6aHHvVHDwb40A8q3YN9CBA4LcuNhyjXw= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 18:44:38 +0000 Cc: Andy Bierman , "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <0100017fe14b3b69-8b9005e8-0ab7-4ea7-b314-443d11b5c639-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> <0100017fe1154a65-2daf3240-c428-4aeb-b43d-8f1fb2a61b3d-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: "John R. Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES X-SES-Outgoing: 2022.03.31-54.240.8.88 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 18:44:47 -0000 Hi John, >> I would hope that web-based RFCs would either default to showing the = "current" RFC or provide an easy way for clients to be aware that a = "current" version is available and get a link to it. >=20 > If you look at, say RFC 6376 at = https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6376 >=20 > There's four links to versions of the RFC. The fourth with the = checkmark has errata applied, > with links at the top to the individual errata. Perfect! And I also see "with errata" links on the Datatracker pages = too. Strange that I've never noticed them before...did they get added = recently? > The regular HTML version has red "Errata Exist" at the top so you know = to look for them. Right, this is what I'm familiar with, but it's always a slog to parse = through the Errata. What's new (to me) is that the very-top line of the = browser window now has a "with errata" link...this was the missing = piece. > Take a look. I still think that the "with errata" version should be displayed by = default or, better, a popup that says "A version with Errata-fixes = applied is available, would you like to see it instead?" - thoughts? > R's, > John Kent From nobody Thu Mar 31 13:57:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EE03A110B for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zsl2i3TOYRS8 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E03783A1172 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD55425C356; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfA5pjOfOIM4; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.203] (unknown [47.186.48.51]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D8DA425C195; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:57:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tom petch , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Kent Watsen Cc: "rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20220330212032.B1C784C1D2@rfcpa.amsl.com> <0100017fdcedaf32-a7793fc0-367f-4737-a505-6045ecfc74ed-000000@email.amazonses.com> <25000_1648704694_62453CB6_25000_113_1_315eaf0b15d04ffea9a7f1f5a7b07324@orange.com> From: Jean Mahoney In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:57:23 -0000 Tom, On 3/31/22 6:00 AM, tom petch wrote: > From: netmod on behalf of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > Sent: 31 March 2022 06:31 > > Hi Kent, > > There are not thousands of RFCs that include a "Module Review Checklist" :-), which is the purpose of this erratum. Thanks. > > > > I agree. There may be lots of RFC in error because RFC8407 gets it wrong but if the update to the lots of RFC was wanted then it should have been investigated last Autumn when the announcement of the change to the TLP was made, an announcement that passed me by despite being on all the right mailing lists. > > When I comment on an I-D to the effect that the TLP is out of date, then the response is that it is almost impossible to get the submission tool to accept the correct TLP so authors go on including the out of date version, in order to submit and I go on flagging it at submission and at Last Call. But that is one for some other mailing list, I know not which. [JM] There is an issue opened against datatracker on this topic: https://github.com/ietf-tools/datatracker/issues/3544 Best regards, Jean RPC Project Manager > > Tom Petch > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Kent Watsen >> Envoyé : jeudi 31 mars 2022 00:24 >> À : RFC Errata System >> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET ; Andy >> Bierman ; rfc-ed@rfc-editor.org; IESG >> ; netmod@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [netmod] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC8407 (6899) >> >> If this Errata is accepted, does it mean that an Errata will be filed >> for the thousands of RFCs that have been published since 2009 when the >> error was introduce in RFC 5691? >> >> Kent >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2022, at 5:20 PM, RFC Errata System > editor.org> wrote: >>> The following errata report has been held for document update for >>> RFC8407, "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing >> YANG Data Models". >>> -------------------------------------- >>> You may review the report below and at: >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6899 >>> >>> -------------------------------------- >>> Status: Held for Document Update >>> Type: Editorial >>> >>> Reported by: Mohamed Boucadair Date >>> Reported: 2022-03-29 Held by: RFC Editor >>> >>> Section: Appendix A >>> >>> Original Text >>> ------------- >>> o License -- verify that the document contains the Simplified BSD >>> License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines >> related >>> to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that >>> the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the >> approved >>> text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: >>> >>> Corrected Text >>> -------------- >>> o License -- verify that the document contains the Revised BSD >>> License in each YANG module or submodule. Some guidelines >> related >>> to this requirement are described in Section 3.1. Make sure that >>> the correct year is used in all copyright dates. Use the >> approved >>> text from the latest TLP document, which can be found at: >>> >>> Notes >>> ----- >>> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/tlp-5/ says: >>> >>> == >>> Note: in prior versions of these provisions, the software license was >> erroneously called the “Simplified BSD License” rather than the “Revised >> BSD License”, and many documents that refer to these provisions copied >> the erroneous name. The IETF Trust corrected the error on September 21, >> 2021. The license text itself was always that of the Revised BSD License >> and has not changed. >>> == >>> --VERIFIER NOTES-- >>> Approved by John Levine (Temporary RFC Series Project Manager and >> member of the IETF Trust). >>> -------------------------------------- >>> RFC8407 (draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20) >>> -------------------------------------- >>> Title : Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of >> Documents Containing YANG Data Models >>> Publication Date : October 2018 >>> Author(s) : A. Bierman >>> Category : BEST CURRENT PRACTICE >>> Source : Network Modeling >>> Area : Operations and Management >>> Stream : IETF >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> netmod mailing list >>> netmod@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. 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