From nobody Thu Dec 10 13:38:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA7E3A12D1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:38:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hz6n-UM8s3R3 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [IPv6:2001:8d8:1801:86::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2860A3A12D0 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (ip-95-223-75-128.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de [95.223.75.128]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55B6118C62A for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:38:23 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1607636303; bh=FekHyODJsMizrI01tKz29rTTIrzBnxP0vs3kJlZh7/c=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=XxmYybWozhkmyU55cjmbmwldTV+6kB5GULU7tkeYUIWBVPZicxrA1kHTDeao3zOHc TsqioDndjeToAYWOhJ18cQFd4twnd/Akj+FLOtlZV6nST7xdaY7Y06wVK0/br3j+1s 9MbHVc2uHHeHmQv+Q5HYo2KeiuelDZbM97Vg6MO9g427CXphK+rZyummqfR9qfsFdJ 1auBsk4dpgrKLP01sl2GYZuMB4Z2XzXBJX2AGVD+tHa6GQUQJDfLkWv6AFl1hIlm+1 cUFw6Nx563HoaTiQA4knyoUW6bwqTJ5JLYCkN8wv3hJfZcG58yc2HhZ7RKknvzBJ7n twgU6CJ+iRtqA== To: openpgp@ietf.org From: Kai Engert Message-ID: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 22:38:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:38:29 -0000 Is it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a detached OpenPGP signature? When Thunderbird sends a signed email, it wants to include the sender's public key by default, to ensure that the recipient has it available. Thunderbird sends the key as an attachment. We received a surprisingly high number of complaints from users. who are unhappy about having attached the key by default. Apparently having the extra public key attachment causes confusion on the recipient side, with users not understanding what the attachment is about. However, I haven't heard complaints about the signature attachment - which is shown by MUA that don't support OpenPGP. The signature attachment appears to be less of a problem or confusion. If it were possible to include the sender's public key inside the signature, Thunderbird could use a single attachment for both. Thanks, Kai From nobody Thu Dec 10 13:54:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7FC3A12D8 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:53:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hush.ai Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zoExV_pW5wAF for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (smtp3.hushmail.com [65.39.178.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C59F3A12D9 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 39075E0308 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:53:55 +0000 (UTC) X-hush-tls-connected: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=hush.ai; h=date:to:subject:from; s=hush; bh=YhkPq/PTonFhdiJXMgQAY0ED3D4SpylO4MsmWpQkWjI=; b=YMdFZ35Bei5aENtZqIIhTRhjqhM/V8NI3TZJn5AGhizbI0JMPNAfv5XiQJD9sys9DeADcjr5/9HcwP/h0OFZHcdPTl4y6MlzhbX9rdQ/FlSIxS67g7yIORNtPzZynsYvnrLTiXkMvKEvm94U6rR2aO/ck9Cm/1d60SY9qiUU7+Yte0eGWjtYK6XHMAh5g0qGXKXjWBX0zeom+Lr8O4PCL35d7tZD68+hOK3Vv0wyedvW4k/gF3fbodgZCt3og+PVmiNQQ3mZEkc4cTRmtxAVZRmbMQ2UiorBs+5Th7fb3GV45noCQwZOoAHXepiwptbCQyVJfs6kFvGlHJlZd06uXA== Received: from smtp.hushmail.com (w4.hushmail.com [65.39.178.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:53:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 48) id D75AF803B10; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:53:54 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 16:53:54 -0500 To: "Kai Engert" , "openpgp" From: vedaal@nym.hush.com In-Reply-To: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> X-hush-end-of-body-position: 35 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_d05d2fbeaed2a600213532dbe8b90f2e" Message-Id: <20201210215354.D75AF803B10@smtp.hushmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:53:58 -0000 --=_d05d2fbeaed2a600213532dbe8b90f2e Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 12/10/2020 at 4:38 PM, "Kai Engert" wrote:Is it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a detached OpenPGP signature? ===== Possible, but slightly tedious: [1] Export the public key as an asc file [2] Add a line after the last line, saying that the key as well as whatever is to be signed in the message is now being signed by the signer's key (list name and long fingerprint [3] Armor sign the entire thing (asc key file and extra line) [4] Send the Armored signed message as the attachment instead of the signature vedaal --=_d05d2fbeaed2a600213532dbe8b90f2e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" On = 12/10/2020 at 4:38 PM, "Kai Engert" <kaie@kuix.de> wrote:
Is= it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a
detach= ed OpenPGP signature?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Possible, but slightly tedi= ous:

[1] Export the public key as an asc file
[2] Add a line afte= r the last line, saying that the key as well as whatever is to be signed in= the message is now being signed by the signer's key (list name and long fi= ngerprint
[3] Armor sign the entire thing  (asc key file and extra = line)
[4] Send the Armored signed message as the attachment instead of t= he signature


vedaal
 --=_d05d2fbeaed2a600213532dbe8b90f2e-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 17:02:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E193A1382 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (3072-bit key) header.d=crustytoothpaste.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vugLL3WWNgFd for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from injection.crustytoothpaste.net (injection.crustytoothpaste.net [192.241.140.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 065103A1381 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from camp.crustytoothpaste.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:b978:101:b610:a2f0:36c1:12e3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by injection.crustytoothpaste.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B7D960769 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:24 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=crustytoothpaste.net; s=default; t=1607648484; bh=Kh3pgXTq9T5LfeiV3X6FqYd1GSy4YafdZmtppvnSwNg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:Content-Type:Content-Disposition: In-Reply-To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Date:To:CC:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:Content-Disposition; b=e7MPZsbX3A7qAuhZzYmzQ1/pABwRt9YN+K0DA6EqvoHBVCWGBaMaYdlQEd404Zgap +N7E43WdU8S7k9fvr+Z07xEM2x9GKY3T/uPfnlh52ammHseh92NHqV0VqvxvDt3cCB O2T3Ut21PM01LVqN3bbzsi82NRXIEe0n4kpi3M3fb5CjlKULKi2uA/aBLMpyFZxwkS evWQm05gUX5ER/Nw5CpJvPlLrREhpkQ7DHk5cN1pc3t88kgAeMfBoJUK66D5yfk7+8 NG3NXlvgbpuQmATOOC4FytPcbA2MxyM2d3MFQexfaYni4SPIoKX4+YjnKWfWwK+GHY vhKeY0L1U6Jw4X7NfyyMmxhJYPtseutKhjYDQ/6tZgqquUyVk4IZWFNTRP4VKgAQUe ozk39qLBK23PWK9Fd0xySVShX7Vmt1IgXesATiW/Qgu/fZxZ4CJRv02jpxgissnfAS NYealZiI9tTfr7oXePA/Q4BypYtdL6QMQn89wmB2ibiDYOdzI2S Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:18 +0000 From: "brian m. carlson" To: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RRGEQrFCe9EBMue1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> User-Agent: Mutt/2.0.2 (2020-11-20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:02:01 -0000 --RRGEQrFCe9EBMue1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-12-10 at 21:38:22, Kai Engert wrote: > Is it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a detach= ed > OpenPGP signature? >=20 > When Thunderbird sends a signed email, it wants to include the sender's > public key by default, to ensure that the recipient has it available. >=20 > Thunderbird sends the key as an attachment. >=20 > We received a surprisingly high number of complaints from users. who are > unhappy about having attached the key by default. Apparently having the > extra public key attachment causes confusion on the recipient side, with > users not understanding what the attachment is about. Yes, adding an attachment that the sender did not explicitly request is not a good idea. I would find this undesirable, too. > However, I haven't heard complaints about the signature attachment - which > is shown by MUA that don't support OpenPGP. The signature attachment appe= ars > to be less of a problem or confusion. That's because (a) it's been around a long time and (b) that this is a multipart/signed message, not an attachment. An MUA that handles S/MIME already knows how to handle this type because the same MIME type is used for both (although the MIME type of the signature is different). And generally the signature doesn't have an attachment Content-Disposition. Some MUAs do show it as an attachment and that does cause confusion. I've had people ask me about it. > If it were possible to include the sender's public key inside the signatu= re, > Thunderbird could use a single attachment for both. I don't think RFC 4880 specifically permits this as part of an OpenPGP message, but then again they don't specifically permit a detached signature as an OpenPGP message (although it is described elsewhere). I suspect many implementations would in fact understand and parse a key that was included in the same OpenPGP message as the signature, but might or might not permit it to be imported. RFC 3156 states that the second body "MUST contain the OpenPGP digital signature," but doesn't restrict it to that or specify things that it should not contain. You could prototype it and try to see how other implementations (e.g., mutt) handle it. I don't know how you'd get GnuPG to emit a combined block, though. There is also a specification called Autocrypt[0] (which I have not looked at more than cursorily), which may be useful for your needs. Finally, you could just assume that the user has access to a suitable keyserver, like many people do, and skip sending the key altogether. This is what mutt does. [0] https://autocrypt.org/level1.html --=20 brian m. carlson (he/him or they/them) Houston, Texas, US --RRGEQrFCe9EBMue1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.2.20 (GNU/Linux) iHUEABYKAB0WIQQILOaKnbxl+4PRw5F8DEliiIeigQUCX9LE3gAKCRB8DEliiIei gSWHAP4ouqXiUxSrKr3d05MzFCG09Id58asne0QLVuexfIy3vAEA8sSLeZrI6GDF mvxBt6zU5SP8IFsjo0jh9+ALwy1ZvgM= =66cm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RRGEQrFCe9EBMue1-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 23:21:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9912C3A0317 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:21:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=metacode.biz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8nPExOiF_PvZ for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x643.google.com (mail-ej1-x643.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::643]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 819883A02BD for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x643.google.com with SMTP id lt17so10983363ejb.3 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:21:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=metacode.biz; s=2017; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VkSUlHPfw1FgrZ8OURYvBWbhMYxFCBUNJ/BxqTAzY0E=; b=uHR6Hiw9fu1BQvYTW9M9ZxKgXwKud5Ii3ClRiiwyLIVn64dUeTgSlCiCzPN0/3qtEr H43+KJ8EAPr9zVMU0P7b/l9WWtTAc20W9QXAt6VyOu95gM5cC342wfEliQ21SfoC12NA w6WBj6uMebe5u8L5PvnfZmpLj/UERkX9Jj3SEPIstGQbuQna6mD19ekr/NyyJvsnYReX lGwCpK9debqdbPSGdvwMnrif2YgcwmoJljhI3Y5oFkJ/gwmM4Pj6eFA38QAkjn/6GELZ Kd86pPWqFe1Kii+5ctF1jhPJcqGBMErj2szBogPg4T25p4oCeNYJgTxh1VPK/nFYVumC vSMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VkSUlHPfw1FgrZ8OURYvBWbhMYxFCBUNJ/BxqTAzY0E=; b=IjrT+2gDZWXYZvonuRl+UTL7n4wO+GV3mI7nL+scn9UrhIMEYwPfhlnwe5JNZCe28n 11w1mBY4uLF1/1aMMMi7SbbCY9xtk/jvArPP6O0edojvBoFQT0AFVKhgAvBWKFAkbAEz COl42FEN1VWzsK5rtCDvKik+TLQZ2g46VX+vrDAIa9rRR8qRhqTdUP1BKM2Ars7gchE/ 5NhaYGzFGEbRJcSlbkQSF1fivlRehGZMvhrJ6/b/BbxQOJbXbfyuj3USDPaLpKG2Gtbx hcieqQQHjdRoSNhERh1TH6thcP78LBE2Hl7Rm761Bq8OGu1eteSZfbD2yNsZH0KAd1VH xxKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531f4wxIx/NMazVc8oVZZENj2VVThdD4NFvym5lfIaCyPELKGFML PnvOamZ8Mkj2G6LoeXdC79nVI1++o5lKGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyumMxKwqI2leREsEb8c/h1Btqt2Ii3hXT1EjkzAMtMGq0mv/1i94dTXBubHBMa4cndarKYvg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b7cc:: with SMTP id fy12mr9793391ejb.44.1607671292045; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.69] (aeca158.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl. [79.186.52.158]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j5sm6882430edl.42.2020.12.10.23.21.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:21:31 -0800 (PST) To: Kai Engert References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> Cc: openpgp@ietf.org From: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Organization: Metacode Message-ID: <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:21:26 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:21:37 -0000 Hi Kai, On 10.12.2020 22:38, Kai Engert wrote: > Is it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a > detached OpenPGP signature? You may be interested in the Key Block signature subpacket as detailed in here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc4880bis-10#section-5.2.3.31 Do note that as to my knowledge nothing supports it yet (happy to be corrected). Kind regards, Wiktor -- https://metacode.biz/@wiktor From nobody Fri Dec 11 00:30:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A363A0140 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:30:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gnupg.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XXN2SZsrCG8c for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED8733A00F7 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:30:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnupg.org; s=20181017; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pRDrNtabw2kK79ZALxyOfcNBlh3JBb1UFCe2ZojEQGQ=; b=b8HPd+hjBlIucfsA2znY68JlTM YKogSQtwhM7iLrRuCUBRreilLqJBWZUY7Ph/q3esbgrhXmbZT+30bSbkYWLihA2SR2Q6oqfyrKHHr PWAgX6rRL2YWYjk0WzmHdzFR/kd5QHSkC/gZX2vHaDjyaFPqw/ScZkLcK8PGWWcJp67o=; Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1kndoW-0001zj-Lg for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:30:08 +0100 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.92 #5 (Debian)) id 1kndoM-0001mp-Ir; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:29:58 +0100 From: Werner Koch To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Cc: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> Organisation: GnuPG e.V. X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:29:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> (Wiktor Kwapisiewicz's message of "Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:21:26 +0100") Message-ID: <871rfw68zj.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=gamma_2600_Magazine_industrial_intelligence_Bosnia_Tony_Blair_ICE=De"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:30:15 -0000 --=gamma_2600_Magazine_industrial_intelligence_Bosnia_Tony_Blair_ICE=De Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:21, Wiktor Kwapisiewicz said: > You may be interested in the Key Block signature subpacket as detailed > in here: Right. GnuPG introduced this for better user experience with mail providers who won't deploy a Web Key Directory and, more important, to ease handling of signed file conveyed using non-mail systems. > Do note that as to my knowledge nothing supports it yet (happy to be > corrected). GnuPG supports this since 2.2.20 (released 2020-03-20) * gpg: New options --include-key-block and --auto-key-import to allow encrypted replies after an initial signed message. [#4856] =2D-include-key-block =2D-no-include-key-block This option is used to embed the actual signing key into a data signature. The embedded key is stripped down to a single user id and includes only the signing subkey used to create the signature as well as as valid encryption subkeys. All other info is removed from the key to keep it and thus the signature small. This option is the OpenPGP counterpart to the gpgsm option --include-certs and allows the recipient of a signed message to reply encrypted to the sender without using any online directories to lookup the key. The default is --no-include-key-block. See also the option --auto-key-import. =2D-auto-key-import =2D-no-auto-key-import This is an offline mechanism to get a missing key for signature verification and for later encryption to this key. If this option is enabled and a signature includes an embedded key, that key is used to verify the signature and on verification success the key is imported. The default is --no-auto-key-import. On the sender (signing) site the option --include-key-block needs to be used to put the public part of the signing key as =E2=80=9CKey Block subpacket=E2=80=9D into the signature. The include-key-block option should only be enabled if required. MUAs can decide whether this makes sense; GPGME supports this using gpgme_set_ctx_flag (flags "include-key-block" and "auto-key-import"). Salam-Shalom, Werner =2D- Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=gamma_2600_Magazine_industrial_intelligence_Bosnia_Tony_Blair_ICE=De Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQSHd0YfKgdOvEgNNZQZzByeCFsQegUCX9MuAAAKCRAZzByeCFsQ erohAQCAIYiBPpZ8Yc+8ODdrKkrYhgZZUNnfDoswYsp5etJksAD9GcJ6XY6TQI5N ihxZ/7sfWCs1RX7/MoKk49sLp9y53gE= =5ELa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=gamma_2600_Magazine_industrial_intelligence_Bosnia_Tony_Blair_ICE=De-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 00:31:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17DC93A0127 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:31:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=merlinux.eu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RrwkVh06_P3y for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from merlinux.eu (hq6.merlinux.eu [IPv6:2a01:4f9:c010:78bc::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A33E3A00F7 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by merlinux.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1192E4004E; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:31:18 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=merlinux.eu; s=lists; t=1607675478; h=from:subject:date:to; bh=+ynpZV4ASKJ77UTjwwJnJ1fG6O+RNL8yoNy8630wz/Y=; b=d9c1jDpfjNbT+3AqCRnZFbQvpCb7udsd4JNlnhj6g5qLLSA1k1o/6mbUI6cmDF6MlNo9AF 1U6gstuEH8qAMHxVyznAjxwD7j4HIz4dyjYB5eyHLeOBxArjdldJ27fr2TiCS5xwS5nmqr D59xSA6EfeK8ZDW8iUUViT2DPRYN7y8JBdtFiztYP8eQWcK7FYA2AxqPS/S246tOMzDMVd t9BlJsoInT7vbMa3YsF+mvBWGZN2KkiAqssffQW+fo+WfDcCugWQXM0vBkAZK9RlCAnaPg DXEdB3iHCKmWiVIV84GAay2TMqO84ZVXo94o9k4weuOYjFpar0g0A/kgyuFoeA== Received: by beto.merlinux.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B2BF9124009E; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:31:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:31:14 +0100 From: holger krekel To: Kai Engert Cc: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201211083114.GI184802@beta> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> Autocrypt: addr=holger@merlinux.eu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFHjpUYBCADtXtH0nIjMpuaWgOvcg6/bBJKhDW9mosTOYH1XaArGG2REhgTh8CyU27qPG+1NKO qm5VT4JWfG91TgvBQdx37ejiLxK9pkqkDMSSHCd5+6lPpgYOTueejToVHTRcHLp2fv7DOJ1s+G05TX T6gesTVvCyNXpGJN/RXbfF5XOBb4Q+5rp7t9ygjb9F97zkeT6YKAAtYqnZNUvamfmNK+vKFyhwhWJX 0Fb6qP3cvlxh4kXbeVdRjlf1Bg17OVcS1uUTI51W67x7vKgOWSUx1gpArq/YYg43o0kcnzj1mEUdjw gu7qAOwoq3b9tHefG971/3/zbPC6lpli7oUV7cfdmSZPABEBAAG0ImhvbGdlciBrcmVrZWwgPGhvbG dlckBtZXJsaW51eC5ldT6JATsEEwECACUCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJR5XTc AhkBAAoJEI47A6J5t3LWGFYH/iG8e2Rn6D/Z5q7vAF00SCkRYzhDqVEx7bX/YazmfiUQImjBnbZZa5 zCQZSDYjAZdwNKBUpdG8Xlc+TI5qLBNEiapOPUYUaaJuG6GtaRF0E36yqvh//VDnCpeeurpn4EhyFB 2SeoMqNxVhv0gdzUi8jp9fHlWNvvYgeTU2y3+9EXGLgayoDPEoUSSF8AOSa3SkgzDnTWNTOVrHJ5UV j2mZTW6HBYPfnKmu/3aERlDH0pOYHBT1bzT6JRBvADZsEln8OM2ODyMjFNiUb7IHbpQb2JETFdMY54 E6gT7pCwleE/K3yovWsUdrJo6YruU2xdlCIWf3qfUQ5xcXUsTitOjky0H2hvbGdlciBrcmVrZWwgPG hwa0B0cmlsbGtlLm5ldD6JATgEEwECACIFAlHlXhICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheA AAoJEI47A6J5t3LWYKsIAOU6h2W9lQIKJVgRQMXRjk6vS6QIl3t0we/N9u52YBcE2iGYiyC9a5+VTv Z4OTDWV6gx8KYFnK6V5PYL6+CZJ/qfsImWwnb6Rp0nGulPjxEhiVjNakQryVZhcXKE8lhMhWYPRxUG gEb3VtOI7HUFVVnhLiakfr8ULe7b5O4EWiYPFxO+5kr44Xvxc3mHrKbfHGuJUxKlAiiQeoiCA/E2cD SMq3qEcrzE9UeW/1qn1pIxx/tGhMSSR7TKQkzTBUyEepY/wh1JHGXIsd7L0bmowG0YF+I5tG4FOZjj kzDPayR5zYyvu/A8L3ynP9lwloJCkyKGVQv9c/nCJCNgimgTiWe5AQ0EUeOlRgEIANjZCj/cBHinl1 8SLdY8VsruEEiFBTgOZn7lWOFcF4bSoJm6bzXckBgPp8yd77MEn7HsfMe9tJuriNvAVl8Ybxqum543 +KtJg1oZ9qv8RQ8OCXRjwNl7dxh41lKmyomFSKhyhmCxLkIwoh+XD2vTiD/w7j9QCtBzQ+UsHLWG4w XHkZ7SfOkVE8EVN/ygqOFeOVRmozckm7pv71JOYlVGO+Gk265ZO3hlstPJgWIbe28S46lDX4wmyJw7 tIuu7zeKTbINztMOUV79S7N2uNE5dt18EtlQb+k4l6JWvpZM+URiPGfLSgCi51njVkSELORW/OrMAJ JImPt7eY/7dtVL6ekAEQEAAYkBHwQYAQIACQUCUeOlRgIbDAAKCRCOOwOiebdy1pp6B/9mMHozAVOS oVhnj4QmlTGlRJxs6tHgTkJ47RlqmRRjYpY4G36rs21KPH++w5E8eLFpQwI6EZ+3yBiNQ7lpRhPmAo 8jP38zvvmT3a1WmvVIBbmwDcGpVvlE6kk3djiJ2jOPfvpwPG42A4trOyvuZtJ38nvzyyuwtg3OhHfX dhjEPzJDSJeUZuRgz+aE7+38edwFi3jwb8gOB3QhrrKo4fL1nMHrrgZK4+n8so5Np4OhX0RBkfy8Jj idxg9xawubYJDHcjc242Wl/gcAIUcnQZ4tEFOL55SCgih1LtlQLsrdnkJgnGI7VepNL1MwMXnAvfIb 1CvHBWNRmnPMaFMeSpgJ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:31:22 -0000 Hi Kai, the reason several e-mail app implementors decided for a header in the discussions leading up to the Autocrypt spec in 2017 was precisely to not confuse users with weird attachments. related FAQ: https://autocrypt.org/faq.html#why-are-you-using-headers-rather-than-attached-keys What do you find problematic about it? It's been used in several mail apps (including Thunderbird/Enigmail up until TB78 in August 2020) and did not cause any UX issues or complaints. I'd kindly ask you to consider not inventing another method now without strong reason. cheers, holger On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 22:38 +0100, Kai Engert wrote: > Is it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a detached > OpenPGP signature? > > When Thunderbird sends a signed email, it wants to include the sender's > public key by default, to ensure that the recipient has it available. > > Thunderbird sends the key as an attachment. > > We received a surprisingly high number of complaints from users. who are > unhappy about having attached the key by default. Apparently having the > extra public key attachment causes confusion on the recipient side, with > users not understanding what the attachment is about. > > However, I haven't heard complaints about the signature attachment - which > is shown by MUA that don't support OpenPGP. The signature attachment appears > to be less of a problem or confusion. > > If it were possible to include the sender's public key inside the signature, > Thunderbird could use a single attachment for both. > > Thanks, > Kai > > _______________________________________________ > openpgp mailing list > openpgp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp From nobody Fri Dec 11 00:34:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA6F3A082F; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:34:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RTOfrTwLa3Z9; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4653F3A0913; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kndsr-0001oR-Ap; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:34:37 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kndsq-0005EM-Vw; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:34:37 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:34:36 +0100 Message-ID: <87h7osyc4j.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Cc: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:34:51 -0000 Hi Kai, On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:21:26 +0100, Wiktor Kwapisiewicz wrote: > On 10.12.2020 22:38, Kai Engert wrote: > > Is it possible to include the sender's own public key as part of a > > detached OpenPGP signature? > > You may be interested in the Key Block signature subpacket as detailed > in here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-openpgp-rfc4880bis-10#section-5.2.3.31 Storing the certificate in a subpacket area of the signature, as Wiktor points out, is reasonable. The subpacket that Wiktor references, however, was added to 4880bis without any discussion on this mailing list, as far as I am aware (please correct me if I am wrong). As such, I would recommend that you instead use a notation. If, at a later point, this subpacket or a similar one is indeed standardized, it is straightforward enough to adapt your implementation. You could actually store the subpacket or notation in the unhashed subpacket area since the content is self authenticating (you can check that the certificate is valid by checking the signature). One thing to be aware of: the subpacket areas can only hold 64kb of data. So, you really should minimize the certificate. :) Neal From nobody Fri Dec 11 00:54:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCD93A0825 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:54:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X_z5U82mA_fl for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28E8C3A0822 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kneCD-00029b-2K; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:54:37 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kneCC-00008b-QI; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:54:36 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:54:36 +0100 Message-ID: <87ft4cyb77.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: holger krekel Cc: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20201211083114.GI184802@beta> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211083114.GI184802@beta> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:54:44 -0000 Hi Holger, On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:31:14 +0100, holger krekel wrote: > the reason several e-mail app implementors decided for a header > in the discussions leading up to the Autocrypt spec in 2017 > was precisely to not confuse users with weird attachments. related FAQ: > https://autocrypt.org/faq.html#why-are-you-using-headers-rather-than-attached-keys > > What do you find problematic about it? It's been used in several mail > apps (including Thunderbird/Enigmail up until TB78 in August 2020) and > did not cause any UX issues or complaints. I'd kindly ask you to consider > not inventing another method now without strong reason. Thanks for brining this up. My response was too narrow, and your recommendation is better. In particular, it has the nice advantage that it is possible to attach the sender's certificate (and some other meta-data) even if the message is not signed. Neal From nobody Fri Dec 11 00:58:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382B53A0829 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:58:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yr0bRIO0jHT9 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zucker.schokokeks.org (zucker.schokokeks.org [178.63.68.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 506133A0825 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 00:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from computer (p200300c1b7177d0087b1ba56c6e21f28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [2003:c1:b717:7d00:87b1:ba56:c6e2:1f28]) (AUTH: PLAIN hanno-default@schokokeks.org, SSL: TLSv1.3, 256bits, TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by zucker.schokokeks.org with ESMTPSA id 0000000000000019.000000005FD334BC.00005253; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:58:36 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:58:36 +0100 From: Hanno =?iso-8859-1?q?B=F6ck?= To: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> In-Reply-To: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.8 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:58:41 -0000 On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 22:38:22 +0100 Kai Engert wrote: > However, I haven't heard complaints about the signature attachment -=20 > which is shown by MUA that don't support OpenPGP. The signature=20 > attachment appears to be less of a problem or confusion. FWIW I have heard lots of complains about the signature attachment, which is why I stopped sending signed emails by default a long time ago. --=20 Hanno B=C3=B6ck https://hboeck.de/ From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:01:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D1C3A083C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=metacode.biz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRkXgTFsu59M for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x644.google.com (mail-ej1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDC573A082F for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x644.google.com with SMTP id a16so11295690ejj.5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=metacode.biz; s=2017; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qn+bs68vJ4by8UMx3pEtjZhxbFshvNqTEdJtYtF6teU=; b=bp0wIp+nIgK4VoY+olVXgPAcOxAHfvZFJ8AliVeo7JRSmrue2jXc/ggRwidwCshQJF 1qmGIMdUDKxPZuu2oSMdaKJ9/eljqgnjWqyUjXxWMKIOswpsGQxVYeqtQLpZNhNFm+7H Fbtl9px5Sr7uf73aDSqK5EGfS7OiDUgwGknu7ZXxDVxsifOmrMyg/LzemjiueJbNFnQb G9/1eadGPZsWpxVo4iSRsBs4+g/FIHfiAYzrfMZDTeROVLGvFKX1UKYLbE4ff6FznPES 8GcbjF4zjZmIOs7kDFuZCrahgRy/MHSSQ4aLhJGcwtIbGEn6paCQZ7izxeJFLg+jN36E yBfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qn+bs68vJ4by8UMx3pEtjZhxbFshvNqTEdJtYtF6teU=; b=aXJGuElENhXvM50BEDkRwPYQkJ4yds2F0KwkhJldpS10rKna+uVBkJtvMB0VR3R1KV QU3ha4mODQbaWelwbAeW9aDk2Xx+/tJndsYfsL4hVOe9uumLfZJY+r5jWeGYx/PJYLqb uK9dwv+PgBbk+y0RkYmJpigELHqBCGAb1ETJUD0S0nDcSquxWsRPSIXrFVyru//5xbwa k0nC/aJRzMOHKZqm3XwKbDHiCTtRHu0RjOJAl0w2LDoI44fu+8ydHgLOsRjRLCXIEops GHu76ND3DJI1+4t4VZcdXgX5KjHT2ofKnygrJYqUxUoX4lqoCs/wg64ahQv/YZTLRv0Q 6D6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TDAtFy+uEvFh+AMIqqd/J6kyUgusSIkYLAZqbNmxRMdQTM7/m dvGMEnxthtSjZ41VciKzzsXRNUhBgE7Cgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4+SeZDrwJ9+L2BCQtLuc8davZvglANolIbqHbGKX0oKS0cfVNEFGprgxRNtAlQtpmgEhHSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:e082:: with SMTP id gh2mr9658815ejb.406.1607677312939; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.69] (aeca158.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl. [79.186.52.158]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id pk19sm6404682ejb.32.2020.12.11.01.01.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:01:52 -0800 (PST) To: "Neal H. Walfield" Cc: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> <87h7osyc4j.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Organization: Metacode Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:01:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87h7osyc4j.wl-neal@walfield.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:01:57 -0000 Hi Neal, On 11.12.2020 09:34, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > One thing to be aware of: the subpacket areas can only hold 64kb of > data. So, you really should minimize the certificate. Minimizing the certificate is actually a good idea regardless of the certificate transport method (Autocrypt header, signature subpacket, notation etc.). It would be good to specify what actually would that minimized cert contain. I think the primary key + valid encryption subkey + signing key that signed the e-mail + User ID of the sender which contains their e-mail address (or the primary one if there is no better match) would constitute the minimal set. Of course clients on the receiving side should properly merge the cert with what they already have (*not* replace it). Kind regards, Wiktor -- https://metacode.biz/@wiktor From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:03:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83D73A0045 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PNzE29jrLVJr for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [93.90.207.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9135C3A003E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (ip-95-223-75-128.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de [95.223.75.128]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2C0018D049; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:02:54 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1607677374; bh=wZqIucdczclyH/KUxKkZbnrvS+frt9MO2cy+NVplOYk=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=OC/tlzND3wX4QF7DR3pajEJl0ApfQWVsrsqvtXr5jm4p9YLF2utQFL1XmtNoEyPIP /OClySE/CuU0piAppG+WwV1QCnmivMM9u7KKp/QL/NTCSpGQ2GzPdDqyV72gfpLai1 /+nPN4Kn3FpUmGQr6NbnSfgYRK3D/dZ+RrTH+YQbDy5/v7oNJoaigxYAg5hr8Kg4vv wNIeYUiQj10E4auwzCklP9jEpVP/t+Y8vAYYEzfZohppOJcqQLR//8x9GZ8qt8atkK fEs549/w6QxW0/mHNEZd7g/JYSVWdm5sIoyUjgLFCDR9S4A1cgPyb9kQ2tTxMfc5dj TQhQyBeI0NMaw== To: vedaal@nym.hush.com, openpgp References: <20201210215354.D75AF803B10@smtp.hushmail.com> From: Kai Engert Message-ID: <3288b6ad-a31f-2c2a-b8c4-16449f04adf1@kuix.de> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:02:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201210215354.D75AF803B10@smtp.hushmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:03:00 -0000 On 10.12.20 22:53, vedaal@nym.hush.com wrote: > On 12/10/2020 at 4:38 PM, "Kai Engert" wrote: > Possible, but slightly tedious: > > [1] Export the public key as an asc file > [2] Add a line after the last line, saying that the key as well as > whatever is to be signed in the message is now being signed by the > signer's key (list name and long fingerprint > [3] Armor sign the entire thing  (asc key file and extra line) > [4] Send the Armored signed message as the attachment instead of the > signature Thanks for your suggestion. This approach probably doesn't work for us. I should have clarified that it's about PGP/MIME. I guess receiving agents aren't prepared to receive a signed message in the place where they expect a signature. Also, IIUC, the signature calculation would have to be different, it would have to feed both the primary message and the secondary message (with the key) into the signature calculation. It seems this won't be comaptible with existing clients. Thanks Kai From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:03:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE003A02BB for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:03:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=metacode.biz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a_QNK-T-NRH1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x541.google.com (mail-ed1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 138633A0127 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x541.google.com with SMTP id c7so8547810edv.6 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:03:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=metacode.biz; s=2017; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=T/T3fgBybBeCvaBF2iPXEefI7AYTm44en8eoqHwrCAI=; b=bzIGCav8OQdrDipZVn/vJnb/cf41SAR1Jj6MIvCR64epOhLC+M1FyhQEkpIag+/LA0 J7cNjhRl2lAFGaMjCVW6TbDmG5B4MUuhkpjpJwjLPyEG8WOnJpylnRzqBtyB09QMg65b yyT0sU3w1ny7pXTWhTnb8pkGa+TZcQuI7l7u4FnoMPfIK+vksGWCZ0PF9VJu1VLN/UKW X13C0zcKF07i5ZAzy6qdZUdUsFFO3V1F+I+NUBUWu/IJ9T1r9VdX2OEJdPa5gjLJScZx JnzZhg3qxnHPd4yc4ZTXdd3k6eE5XBWyNUAEIUqVrmwhp/XyGHf9t+mdRGNlM/6Noa4X mAwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T/T3fgBybBeCvaBF2iPXEefI7AYTm44en8eoqHwrCAI=; b=rp6treV0uf4TJEo8LOL7sBDFk0Ix1nLsWwqSUs2mQ51M2QBQZiCUDhgLuu/Q1KwK6n FgS6HefxJ8sEmJlRb10aAQiFqZFVjcbS2wz/XL3IQzPyWxG1JFzNx6KhzaGw1yOYTzTx +wfTagos+aSsZZy14F29fbyVcS/eJmCbn117rPE9+pQYnKZGvtAp90ADeo8yOwvYPHsa gRhM5nAuBCIrkSqfvSJWJ+2+xaBMINT9X4nKYVstBx3vvDbHTYVMq8FKvXFTi4VZiEPM DVVuEJMXWXyQdJZvohINgRH7CVjfkCmoiYo4mowVh0RJrt+NWwAiUDJzIbpJTSZTnZao XUfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TnjK/raQRk5EsHMd347UfqqyhXbIqd6rpYVbLMyeueou84wul YdAlIOvhIbDpokKteSF+UQ2mEDdLOFtmCQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIxO5O6v7zvFgFpJRb62BL1/nS7BdWDlUkItIC9PtYdb8OcSa+e6gDM9Lqg7G+KaQY/pzssA== X-Received: by 2002:a50:d888:: with SMTP id p8mr10862480edj.147.1607677427306; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:03:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.69] (aeca158.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl. [79.186.52.158]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d22sm6415751eja.72.2020.12.11.01.03.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:03:46 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Hanno_B=c3=b6ck?= References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> Cc: openpgp@ietf.org From: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Organization: Metacode Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:03:51 -0000 Hi Hanno, On 11.12.2020 09:58, Hanno Böck wrote: > FWIW I have heard lots of complains about the signature attachment, > which is why I stopped sending signed emails by default a long time ago. Too bad signatures cannot be put into headers (just like DKIM signatures). That would not confuse people (because they generally don't inspect headers) while providing necessary info for clients that understand them. Kind regards, Wiktor -- https://metacode.biz/@wiktor From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:27:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FEF3A0762 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DricdEfhMnLQ for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E9E63A07F4 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kneiO-0002eO-NO; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:27:52 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kneiO-0004NH-EX; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:27:52 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:27:52 +0100 Message-ID: <87eejwy9nr.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Cc: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <5ecf5a5c-6eaa-7929-bb8e-c1bf776fb3d4@metacode.biz> <87h7osyc4j.wl-neal@walfield.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:27:57 -0000 On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:01:49 +0100, Wiktor Kwapisiewicz wrote: > On 11.12.2020 09:34, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > > One thing to be aware of: the subpacket areas can only hold 64kb of > > data. So, you really should minimize the certificate. > > Minimizing the certificate is actually a good idea regardless of the > certificate transport method (Autocrypt header, signature subpacket, > notation etc.). I agree that when we need to optimize for space, data whose utility in the particular context is zero or less should be stripped. > It would be good to specify what actually would that minimized cert > contain. I think the primary key + valid encryption subkey + signing > key that signed the e-mail + User ID of the sender which contains > their e-mail address (or the primary one if there is no better match) > would constitute the minimal set. Of course clients on the receiving > side should properly merge the cert with what they already have (*not* > replace it). I think over specifying is bad, because what is useful is context dependent. Should I be forbidden from including third-party certificates? What if I suspect that one of them would allow you to authenticate my certificate? What if I have per-device encryption subkeys and I know that your implementation will encrypt to them all, like Open Keychain? Do I have to choose one? :) Neal From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:43:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0074F3A0844 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SqJKZNpSQ2fY for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [93.90.207.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D63B03A083E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (ip-95-223-75-128.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de [95.223.75.128]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DD29418D050; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:43:11 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1607679791; bh=7+o/aAnX2lIq5q2LPbkS4bmjCLqi0dVY72dK8bz4zAk=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Q5SkH4rFQmfvgu+bcmdQLRAMTrajBF5639l4+EUAUqRG3rel99fHBGqZmCjM4TLiZ brguIQaVW4krRWefJ+kWgWwcVmOlQdE47nWNWUOnvLFaFs0asQyiLtqD1gv+Z6UJNT emlah6/O/XnpU9AJmG+GvONGDAuGtsLd1AXJj4pnuGbeTz5GV/E+Q34phDFMDZRWZN 3OGyZs8PYLYr7dlskNmqE+OfSbXfZ+C96ToF2TBOxO6xs2dbxxaZLj2NJ5/IqeHa7a Wj0gBQgr2uPyADWGC+ITCWZFI9owJmAFV5V4ZJbc6Z9r4QIWfuB5hom7bFxd6AGoSK Uwd+VO2EiO8zQ== To: holger krekel Cc: openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211083114.GI184802@beta> From: Kai Engert Message-ID: <91e4784a-3238-6c50-fa10-e09835fc6587@kuix.de> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:43:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201211083114.GI184802@beta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:43:17 -0000 On 11.12.20 09:31, holger krekel wrote: > the reason several e-mail app implementors decided for a header > in the discussions leading up to the Autocrypt spec in 2017 > was precisely to not confuse users with weird attachments. related FAQ: > https://autocrypt.org/faq.html#why-are-you-using-headers-rather-than-attached-keys > > What do you find problematic about it? It's been used in several mail > apps (including Thunderbird/Enigmail up until TB78 in August 2020) and > did not cause any UX issues or complaints. I'd kindly ask you to consider > not inventing another method now without strong reason. The amount of data that can be transported in an email header is limited. For the simple keys that can be generated inside Thunderbird (primary key, single subkey for encryption, single used ID), using the Autocrypt header could work. However: - we also allow users to use their complex keys with Thunderbird, which may contain multiple user IDs, and contain many certifications, causing the key to be very big The Autocrypt header seems like an incomplete key distribution mechanism for complex keys. - what Thunderbird sends in PGP/MIME's application/gpg-keys attachment isn't limited to the sender's public key. It will also include revocation statements, for revoked keys matching the sender's email address. Kai From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:53:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BF33A0876 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:53:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rllYnL0JXzCC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97F953A0858 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1knf7E-00032X-Ot; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:53:32 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1knf7E-0002Xc-EQ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:53:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:53:32 +0100 Message-ID: <87blf0y8gz.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: Kai Engert Cc: holger krekel , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <91e4784a-3238-6c50-fa10-e09835fc6587@kuix.de> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211083114.GI184802@beta> <91e4784a-3238-6c50-fa10-e09835fc6587@kuix.de> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Combining signature with signer's public key X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:53:37 -0000 On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:43:11 +0100, Kai Engert wrote: > The amount of data that can be transported in an email header is limited. > > For the simple keys that can be generated inside Thunderbird (primary > key, single subkey for encryption, single used ID), using the > Autocrypt header could work. > > However: > > - we also allow users to use their complex keys with Thunderbird, > which may contain multiple user IDs, You only need the User ID corresponding to the email address in the from field, and the current self signature. > and contain many certifications, > causing the key to be very big The last I checked gmail doesn't accept mails larger than 25MB. So, you'll need a filter if you intend to include everything... Also, you have to remember that the email also has content, so you probably don't want to reserve more than a few MB for the signer's certificate. In that case, you pretty much have to filter some certificates... > The Autocrypt header seems like an incomplete key distribution > mechanism for complex keys. Indeed. I'd argue that that is a feature, not a bug. From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:14:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9573A08D6; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iQCcWEe-rB9W; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDA6B3A08D4; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1knfRZ-0003KN-NG; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:14:33 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1knfRZ-0000zX-9s; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:14:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:14:33 +0100 Message-ID: <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Cc: openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Put Signature in an Email's Header X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:14:38 -0000 On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:44 +0100, Wiktor Kwapisiewicz wrote: > On 11.12.2020 09:58, Hanno B=F6ck wrote: > > FWIW I have heard lots of complains about the signature attachment, > > which is why I stopped sending signed emails by default a long time ago. >=20 > Too bad signatures cannot be put into headers (just like DKIM > signatures). That would not confuse people (because they generally > don't inspect headers) while providing necessary info for clients that > understand them. When you say cannot, I think you mean there is no standard to so. Technically, I think, it is possible, and it is a neat idea. From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:22:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4423A091B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dq0990NXSnhX for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [IPv6:2001:8d8:1801:86::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FEA73A0972 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (ip-95-223-75-128.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de [95.223.75.128]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E067418D051; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:22:07 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1607682127; bh=XZOoxycIL5pMRzlZxh0jXqLyJthg/XslioeyVAKIzkU=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nictaU+0QQL2Rx7POHyqjhyb+HnFf9mjwa72Xl3EjCQh7UeS4frDd5YW9gySrTbnz hW5f5PJ3w/1yFioUSVSA67cetPO4NGBrZA569uElrmt5eigHaCC0srCy12u4fNqFYq TT2gbfBbRY5daxFG6is5g9AyfiXIgkuzSBR0Yppict4PQ2mgFgJ45sEkkX7eN0Jn+a FIDa1HAj+y8+Wh0iyNCjDm4cLmaHCYgDTfwFlObCpw0usUVbUGIrMnU5FEJayIs9YV YeqCDsdZWNqhbqZQF0zEjhxj03m0STmsgnjsCziX3o9woE3SFR3kDzlbDxfFLnMD4v eAoZ6fwW/d3gA== To: "Neal H. Walfield" , Wiktor Kwapisiewicz Cc: openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: Kai Engert Message-ID: <8dd0976f-f85d-66ed-489f-98fdacf8cf82@kuix.de> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:22:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Put Signature in an Email's Header X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:22:18 -0000 On 11.12.20 11:14, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:44 +0100, > Wiktor Kwapisiewicz wrote: >> On 11.12.2020 09:58, Hanno Böck wrote: >>> FWIW I have heard lots of complains about the signature attachment, >>> which is why I stopped sending signed emails by default a long time ago. >> >> Too bad signatures cannot be put into headers (just like DKIM >> signatures). That would not confuse people (because they generally >> don't inspect headers) while providing necessary info for clients that >> understand them. > > When you say cannot, I think you mean there is no standard to so. > Technically, I think, it is possible, and it is a neat idea. It's a nice idea, but it's also new, so it's not practical as the single mechanism to use in the immediate future. Preserving compatiblity with a majority of existing implementations is a high priority for me, and using the gpg-keys attachment mechanism seems best to achieve that. Kai From nobody Fri Dec 11 03:22:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5173A0A96 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:22:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CezItfK0I6v5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [93.90.207.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7731A3A0A7E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (ip-95-223-75-128.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de [95.223.75.128]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C6B218D069 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:21:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1607685717; bh=HzSHHfsvV42P/TxQ620ZT3G1L3DUjJvJ9OLso9CcaW4=; h=From:To:References:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DaJocqsIwJfGTddqEiBsZa/A32nWtVsN2v6vePkPHBNAeqPSFKnkceIZ9iF8n04yo H7f7iTgf1zDVsYXv9InG4rqN8+rseGi3Z+Jxsc5rNle7BH6qNB7dvL1nydbYU2G7BB ci4zFhZwmKdZQKP2F/NDli8oL91Dxaqj0f3hPA7zDGRm5AccvQ1VwgHv/ypjLasuO0 5aAueWaZt12DbJlUZ3SJIC1/j6at8KNKbW/3pFbEWn03QlIHFQDVdqsrucwagsyaNI pymsMXlX2vaL5TnkGz16siRW7TCpcRLv7qjd3lkaOszQHPeLzWNLut6F0X/9pPiZA9 N7zOehRV8MJfw== From: Kai Engert To: openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> Message-ID: <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:21:55 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:22:02 -0000 Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions, it was very helpful. I wonder if the following could be reasonable. (1) Similarly to the Autocrypt keydata header let's define a new header that can be used to transport revocation information for a key. With Thunderbird's current approach to include revocations as part of an gpg-keys attachment, we probably cannot expect most other MUAs to automatically process it. Thunderbird would implement the new revocation information header, and both send and consume it. With this, Thunderbird would no longer need to distribute this information in an attachment. (2) If the sender's key is simple, don't use an attachment. Strip certificates, include it as an Autocrypt keydata header. (3) Develop a reasonable strategy for treating complex keys, which contain multiple user IDs, or multiple sub keys, or both. I'm worried that sending a key with only a single user ID can be confusing, for example in the following scenario. Alice's key has two user IDs, @project1.org and @project2.org. Alice sends a signed email from @project1 to Bob, Bob verifies/accepts the key for this email address. Later Alice sends a signed email from @project2. Bob will be confused why Alice's key is shown as unverified, despite her using the same key. This will require UI to distinguish the key verification status individually per user ID. To minimize this confusion, I think it would be preferable to always keep all user IDs, then Bob can be immediately aware that the keys is used for multiple addresses. Does the current Autocrypt specification allow the distribution of a key with multiple user IDs and sub keys? If we strip certificates, but keep user IDs and sub keys, can we expect keys to still have a reasonable size for transport in the Autocrypt header? If yes, then Thunderbird could always include an Autocrypt keydata header for complex keys, too. Kai From nobody Fri Dec 11 03:27:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFE03A0ABB for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:27:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=andrewg.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h8_gQakuaJ5A for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from xen.andrewg.com (andrewg.com [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe93:aaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9FC03A0AB7 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:fc93:5820:7375:ee79:1300::1] (fred [IPv6:fc93:5820:7375:ee79:1300::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by xen.andrewg.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA2195C641 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:27:05 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=andrewg.com; s=andrewg-com; t=1607686025; bh=Z1xUcVPISyC47PQgelqsTuy99KrpP/HLK6gd0xY0EGg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ecIQQ5L4okbnIQHc+jGTYJUQI6FUZJcPoM5nQ1gQVMhJxloHmnfws01p9j9SGUXLh m26XVMVU1v8tdAHa2b+7sp9uaOpPNj1MUdIJBZfkn4oyc22ak0hSuuaiSHWRjwkHsg 5/S92iIoK1FUeK9sDKpJMnt93VZYTUKyqJ5nz6Ux0WOBbxPS5/zzvFjZUcZk8gyuCo rGJFvP2GgDRFmJtrGHJC0duWAix9m2RZF8FTqYf7zsM2fmHG3xNgEJhErFAkZDiKZ5 rcBs6DgTykzO6alCs+gCS7PaV3aJ8lo/1uejfs/7NXjrWEbMi52/YECyeR5qZgZvWx TNAbqd7ZfAsSg== To: openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> From: Andrew Gallagher Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:26:48 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oWOER1kz9M4eTXEouknyfu0qNxmMwKkHI" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:27:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oWOER1kz9M4eTXEouknyfu0qNxmMwKkHI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RVOaCd53s5V5601tNtn1OWlvufMa4dM6b"; protected-headers="v1" From: Andrew Gallagher To: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> In-Reply-To: <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> --RVOaCd53s5V5601tNtn1OWlvufMa4dM6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/12/2020 11:21, Kai Engert wrote: > This will require UI to distinguish the key verification status=20 > individually per user ID. This is an eventuality that any reasonable UI *must* already handle.=20 Just because my key is valid for andrewg@andrewg.com, does not mean that = it is therefore valid for president@whitehouse.gov. --=20 Andrew Gallagher --RVOaCd53s5V5601tNtn1OWlvufMa4dM6b-- --oWOER1kz9M4eTXEouknyfu0qNxmMwKkHI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEKR55odxVrielLu+DXB7EBNWQZikFAl/TV3gACgkQXB7EBNWQ ZinOrBAAkPkxR4D2KjHTqp5MLtDSlCOYUPoJ4lX5nNBL2HdHnrazozrKBZ99+1vY ipkyssCogYkr0Jjr5FhyLsbxDpoaWTRkT5hrJGCy6RViTKeou4fzun0ZmRaJ8f/N bF03ExWQ5R2L5y5eifHvIqWix+hCrMnPiI0yCODY9W8vsw6jhS2XPvdWtq38bKNs kI9G5VwkbIY0Azu3NWB505tlXzCkJAyT/fMSKAKoHCQKwCzgXyNsviZlGbYQqd6u aMC+9S3yG7ktVTOSd3XHZ5ZdleK5qyDP3ZiHCgsPVxmvPLADe1lcODBg4Nfl+5Kf 83P9PZlViDgZEfZL15ACopsAQwcQQVZnAb0asLOY7lRaN1E6qcz5tAUEC/J9oMqd XWJHbt6SfzCUaM9+2zNdy0UV3zx3xv5kW6epjODe87uEnuV2pn3DjHagPoCpp1WE yYhsKvsAxM4zu26lHgKiU3wF9L9Wq+aTrvPUkB1bUU7A6GLphpNsxHE0GklTmXlR tlU1+lDydK4SJOSee6qfsertH8lz/xSJzuIelLQXIjwoctajSAV8TY+BWNZKe1ky 1ogsIinbjpdzM9Ncmz0ah/Cqo2o/2dkvJXrbFXjGaiQBCgq9OyyCeFtsaIwvN750 +dPc9nc8ksf/GfsqXs+5tV9EOa2nlssUzdoU+hMN+lyp/ujDaDU= =bt83 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oWOER1kz9M4eTXEouknyfu0qNxmMwKkHI-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 03:32:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD3B3A0AC5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:32:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3_tBTZ7_OeQ5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [93.90.207.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4049E3A0AC4 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 03:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (ip-95-223-75-128.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de [95.223.75.128]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7BB4F18CEC3; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:32:08 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1607686328; bh=idJv9qjd2GRgYPkNoPaT49Rmsqo3rKQMuBQR6CYQNK8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=KhmdxMqZfiZU2MFmMBGv/GRIUGMdmfSgdFiSpIRMLLTSLJUEelmlxjM8cfJLeWf0h TaZgB5LmRFV9DYjylruNaFhCDadq5w4QlaY9pcFtUnkmRgjuVBEyyQmYg7FNDQ2X+y aWLu4COCeutyx2gvvGmWXdRT95J4XtMXzH6zWeFaOUKBVd7qHCVvFVslv5PIry9vlm QCapkRSDH8Mowo8EWII8jOwImD7vAuph9XDMGB/cnoX+vE5NZ2j4kwgRZG3j8evt1C c/1TwAXXOeP6MLm6F0fEXYfiuba2v+YvgERy7Q3Kpq1JwpmFhLMJ9WoJCuxm+wluSB 3AdlxM0+qeMfQ== To: Andrew Gallagher , openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> From: Kai Engert Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:32:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:32:12 -0000 On 11.12.20 12:26, Andrew Gallagher wrote: > On 11/12/2020 11:21, Kai Engert wrote: >> This will require UI to distinguish the key verification status >> individually per user ID. > > This is an eventuality that any reasonable UI *must* already handle. > Just because my key is valid for andrewg@andrewg.com, does not mean that > it is therefore valid for president@whitehouse.gov. Yes, fully agree. My questions remain nevertheless. Kai From nobody Fri Dec 11 04:19:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB213A0B3B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 04:19:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id doPt5gVP15_c for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 04:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-40133.protonmail.ch (mail-40133.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76E9F3A0B2E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 04:19:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:19:23 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail; t=1607689175; bh=LcKGIQFizxBZMuRpEIpPUp2vWXltnsbLMIznaUzRIqI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=xP/+mK4v4BR3/qNuLgRF0U9h/0i42FLHj7z/89mZJ8SXfzKItv/it6yWU2dTF3nof vfXB/T+zQ29kZSPLIEC4MEoWJ4bTgpdGpnr5MXw9yuJQyr03/yz4YaI0Mo5CdhColU cgZKnwJT+UUyLIexgFJ+6LP/P/HPBcLnh+7spiZE= To: Kai Engert From: Bart Butler Cc: "Neal H. Walfield" , Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , openpgp@ietf.org Reply-To: Bart Butler Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8dd0976f-f85d-66ed-489f-98fdacf8cf82@kuix.de> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> <8dd0976f-f85d-66ed-489f-98fdacf8cf82@kuix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="---------------------1ae4f272ca51702403fcfbc13fb4a898"; charset=utf-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Put Signature in an Email's Header X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:19:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) -----------------------1ae4f272ca51702403fcfbc13fb4a898 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------eb394478eb8180212ab3d1699d83b21b -----------------------eb394478eb8180212ab3d1699d83b21b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Hi Wiktor, Does signature.asc even show up as an attachment if you set the dispositio= n to inline for PGP/MIME? That would be the obvious solution for suppressi= ng unwanted signature.asc attachments for non-aware recipients. Bart =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M= essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Friday, December 11th, 2020 at 11:22 AM, Kai Engert wrot= e: > On 11.12.20 11:14, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > = > > On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:44 +0100, > > = > > Wiktor Kwapisiewicz wrote: > > = > > > On 11.12.2020 09:58, Hanno B=C3=B6ck wrote: > > > = > > > > FWIW I have heard lots of complains about the signature attachment= , > > > > = > > > > which is why I stopped sending signed emails by default a long tim= e ago. > > > = > > > Too bad signatures cannot be put into headers (just like DKIM > > > = > > > signatures). That would not confuse people (because they generally > > > = > > > don't inspect headers) while providing necessary info for clients th= at > > > = > > > understand them. > > = > > When you say cannot, I think you mean there is no standard to so. > > = > > Technically, I think, it is possible, and it is a neat idea. > = > It's a nice idea, but it's also new, so it's not practical as the single > = > mechanism to use in the immediate future. > = > Preserving compatiblity with a majority of existing implementations is a > = > high priority for me, and using the gpg-keys attachment mechanism seems > = > best to achieve that. > = > Kai > = > openpgp mailing list > = > openpgp@ietf.org > = > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp -----------------------eb394478eb8180212ab3d1699d83b21b-- -----------------------1ae4f272ca51702403fcfbc13fb4a898 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wnUEARYKAAYFAl/TY8oAIQkQmQVEZe8zHkQWIQQ8FZE3gYfupson+qyZBURl 7zMeRIq+AP0SGSNNC+sH+RHLIKPmZp4DxRzqoU91dSJvsSL1ZY7AWQD/WRZF 1mlroCxzDhUEqON4yS1j9ZxSQqtzR/ucnqYzPwk= =lJ7m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----------------------1ae4f272ca51702403fcfbc13fb4a898-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 04:22:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BC73A0B0C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 04:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=posteo.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XZRD7CeUNy8M for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 04:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout02.posteo.de (mout02.posteo.de [185.67.36.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CA9E3A0AF8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 04:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 416FC2400FC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:22:14 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1607689337; bh=MJHC869qVW0N5wPY+Ode0+6Qu66njrRwwzCejrD5kjY=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=QwOmTEH8WWHnpXVHHo6wejcIiRFbsStbD8EQ0CVKjA0QBs+PmoBqVHapU85bFByOZ P4Ucc8nYlwAg3pSNbMJH92G3vcP2a/RYyx8USxba6dN58YRpfgdW5S7+M0337ZAwLj yXpMj3d1dmla2jDNC/xIf+J03ksEpYOda60O2KNP3H3JCVSdWbiYkajJuOQrTyIeV4 LTIhhFp8C6jfimul/sOVqqvdBabHDBlzTXseLrpl7Wxeyu1TiP21RCQtyhspIrBghv bdTqlOScF+6Z9XG9ASXxGRtDwKbVZSLc3gxPK1131Y1FmpMikRCqcd5y5bFpozxoTV X/x4x5IDOMcDQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4CsqfZ3mSvz6tmD for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:22:13 +0100 (CET) To: openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> From: Heiko Schaefer Message-ID: <47bcbed4-3832-6ee0-4a39-127af7e455b3@posteo.de> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:22:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:22:23 -0000 Hello Kai On 12/11/20 12:21 PM, Kai Engert wrote: [..] > (3) Develop a reasonable strategy for treating complex keys, > which contain multiple user IDs, or multiple sub keys, or both. [..] I would like to add a strong vote for not casually inventing yet another mechanism for distributing OpenPGP key material. The autocrypt standard is established, and quiet a few projects support it (https://autocrypt.org/dev-status.html). One of the stated objectives of autocrypt is "Use decentralized, in-band key discovery" (https://autocrypt.org/background.html). This seems to be exactly what this discussion is about. For example, the point you raise above is specifically covered in the standard here: https://autocrypt.org/level1.html#openpgp-based-key-data If the autocrypt standard does not satisfy requirements that thunderbird has, relating to key discovery, it would seem best to me that the wider OpenPGP community work on enhancing the standard. Thank you, regards, Heiko From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:05:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1979E3A0E9F for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gnupg.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jiCKf3s6oIHp for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E2BC3A0E39 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:05:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnupg.org; s=20181017; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=3hdEo8ArG9/TFvfq+2C0HZUo2OJami6kTa5yv0E413E=; b=lK6wmimRBqwRnff7Z4FvBIqqMQ UECFoe/EymQyGJez2So7o/VTl6vMqjIe5BQMSA7iR8DTXxwWsWZ7WgCQP5kswqCd2NdyUMjX90lag bGYJIj+sMe2TPrthgcfICmFpLPmTBvl9vr7uY3osBAEizCGBUfygYFijkrkZlKG6D3co=; Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1knof6-0008Ka-RG for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:05:08 +0100 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.92 #5 (Debian)) id 1knobX-00046M-FB; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:01:27 +0100 From: Werner Koch To: Heiko Schaefer Cc: openpgp@ietf.org References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> <47bcbed4-3832-6ee0-4a39-127af7e455b3@posteo.de> Organisation: GnuPG e.V. X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Mail-Followup-To: Heiko Schaefer , openpgp@ietf.org Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:01:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <47bcbed4-3832-6ee0-4a39-127af7e455b3@posteo.de> (Heiko Schaefer's message of "Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:22:12 +0100") Message-ID: <87k0to3yen.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=Mitigation_MF_Mossad_FLETC_Rand_Corporation_Wackenhut_Mace_Delays=Lo"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:05:13 -0000 --=Mitigation_MF_Mossad_FLETC_Rand_Corporation_Wackenhut_Mace_Delays=Lo Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:22, Heiko Schaefer said: > The autocrypt standard is established, and quiet a few projects support > it (https://autocrypt.org/dev-status.html). Autocrypt is bound to mail use cases and can't be used in other environments. Remember that mail is only one use-case; there are many other important use cases. Key discovery has never been in the scope of OpenPGP. The standard provided means to implement systems but does not enforce the use of one. That limited scope worked very well over the last 23 years. Noet that I do not say that such topics ares out of scope for this mailing list; merely for the OpenPGP standard. In fact, over all the years this list has also been used as an implementers forum. Salam-Shalom, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=Mitigation_MF_Mossad_FLETC_Rand_Corporation_Wackenhut_Mace_Delays=Lo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQSHd0YfKgdOvEgNNZQZzByeCFsQegUCX9PQEQAKCRAZzByeCFsQ ejsPAQD2plyGhUEWp+dOiFQNDMoOHc3YNwe5rD+lP5vMOraVmQD/SNul1k3V3tZg mxNeSDZNxv2rMv7jNrQXK+eoGb5GMAQ= =zmyF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=Mitigation_MF_Mossad_FLETC_Rand_Corporation_Wackenhut_Mace_Delays=Lo-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:28:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3D93A0F09 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:28:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kiym4IbMSKMy for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B99883A0EDF for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5103916057; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:28:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:28:18 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: openpgp@ietf.org, Heiko Schaefer Message-ID: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <87k0to3yen.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> <47bcbed4-3832-6ee0-4a39-127af7e455b3@posteo.de> <87k0to3yen.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> Mail-Followup-To: openpgp@ietf.org, Heiko Schaefer User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.19-179-g6a1d3a31-dirty OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:28:29 -0000 Werner Koch wrote in <87k0to3yen.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de>: |On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:22, Heiko Schaefer said: | |> The autocrypt standard is established, and quiet a few projects support |> it (https://autocrypt.org/dev-status.html). | |Autocrypt is bound to mail use cases and can't be used in other |environments. Remember that mail is only one use-case; there are many |other important use cases. Also it is a tremendous waste to include kilobytes of data (for usual key types) in each and every mail for nothing, even if the mail as such is not even signed! And if it is signed, then everything you want is included anyway .. no? |Key discovery has never been in the scope of OpenPGP. The standard |provided means to implement systems but does not enforce the use of one. |That limited scope worked very well over the last 23 years. | |Noet that I do not say that such topics ares out of scope for this |mailing list; merely for the OpenPGP standard. In fact, over all the |years this list has also been used as an implementers forum. I personally (not yet supporting OpenPGP for at least one more year, but S/MIME) am also of the opinion that _if_ you discover to have an immediate, real need to start a secure, encrypted communication with someone that you have not yet exchanged keys with, then you can very well send a small message in advance and ask for a public key, or how and where to get it. I admit, i never understood autocrypt. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:53:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6C93A0EDA for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:52:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=my.amazin.horse Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IlvW9nLK1b41 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from my.amazin.horse (my.amazin.horse [5.181.49.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57F313A0EFA for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ip4d1529b8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [77.21.41.184]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by my.amazin.horse (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31CE26FCF8; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:52:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=my.amazin.horse; s=2020; t=1607719973; bh=f59yrFfEtmfK2jOBfDgjC+ZzUn7ePBaESdokQKEb7/A=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject; b=L96I5/sN9bGvPkiHU+74keRwBB9AMx/gErkEATw+7g3ntJMFs+eOhnJ7H9VajMRUb +hepjExArAGMQoIB6axMDfA0HV6FLICdWvGM35BesdRstCmCCK9Q9vQns97Z3nyBsv taCkZUp+7LozzNTrtLYzbo7x7+W9UHgAgbEoapUk= Message-Id: <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse> In-Reply-To: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> <47bcbed4-3832-6ee0-4a39-127af7e455b3@posteo.de> <87k0to3yen.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:52:47 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Vincent Breitmoser To: Steffen Nurpmeso Cc: openpgp@ietf.org, Heiko Schaefer Autocrypt: addr=look@my.amazin.horse; keydata=mQINBFAB3UABEADCyB/vbIBA3m1Bwc yjTieEMLySwYgt54EQ2hglOocdtIhqC+b05t6sLSkwx2ukxrU2cegnCBkdyF/FZ/+Et638CUEBbf 4bjplwpt2IPLazQgjkwjMuhz0OcYDpMhwimTvh3mIl+0wzpOts6mEmMw0QZdl3RXvIW+NSynOn7q mz/fAv4Htt6lv2Ka0s6R2voyi+5U7CcIqizPad5qZVn2uxmovcFreTzFt6nk37ZbbTfvA3e5F0bR RQeH3viT5XxpJF4Y76v/Ua+5N3Kd18K0sX85rD1G7cmxR2CZ5gW1X24sDqdYZdDbf10N39UIwjJH PTeuVMQqry792Ap0Etyj135YFCE0loDnZYKvy2Y1i0RuEdTUIonIHrLhe2J0bXQGbQImHIyMgB9/ lva8D+yvy2gyf2vjRhmJEEco7w9FdzP7p3PhKrUiTjRsjHw8iV8LOCFx9njZOq9mism9ZZ16tZpx 9mXOf11HcH1RtVuyyQRS/4ytQPzwshXdSDDW6Btkmo9AbZQKC54/hSyzpp3Br2T2xDH7ecnonDB/ jv8rWuKXSTbX3xWAIrNBNDcTYaNe4jkms4HF7jJE19eRlqsXMMx6Fxvrh4TtKICwJYJ3AUmXrK3X Ti/mjqYfJ1fpBn54rWs8nhSR1fuZPD+aMlcP8BDUPlNKPKtj0DGSh3/VlnnwARAQABtClWaW5jZW 50IEJyZWl0bW9zZXIgPGxvb2tAbXkuYW1hemluLmhvcnNlPokCOAQTAQIAIgUCVTNZmgIbAwYLCQ gHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQe9GDIN6t+hHcVg//aeiijNqsQ3pjbFQn3VvND7hNfJ vrVcLZ+U4kOzXPF818aVdOnDyNXyE17vBDDcvaZ730sCsZIRZJ3KhUJ+nPvdttKjUIGLARmx+pA3 Jl3IIv2uLtOb3I0TMuyfIGJVGF+q10/CeDMKVjKlmyOVrR0opkel+KEoN7VLq3Hf3zPKENO1HBgp LHeP31tlb9cgs+u4o2wLrVe9myHbuFBW7EjWbSvdz2zliwbsFeFVLMNcWrKAU0GkkiH69SgnwmXU RkhGma4L27GLtkHHufsxfbcPqPtmtCttsGZU4EmrghGUqVyDOxnn8ZqybzLrRfpin+OCIX+aHJz5 r2L8qtrP0LorNMX3Gopd26vfhNvq/wq8xk++bW1R5FmkaUhx9h+DhO2ybcg7p/E8JHc8zrWv+bb3 0o9lkrOaU8GxXrgtb1cjtbb+MxFvjm0Elw7MSZDG7sF/APFU6cwuIA9Nai/OGAUCSt/W2ecS8Zox cWWbGSEiDvjtEctkpmHjfVuGoL34966Olm41VdH+NjgoSYUJKx4Mty8DRcZxdyoXll84LvDkEEYK ZqOIACsJf8CDFvUkmhXc+moCj15Yxtj3/RslRVEiOUyrpDwB72zWcZG8YnzoyGxhcRIc/gFejO/y SI8bzCpYngeuTb5NjFG+ChGiInHbQcFeHBlaHtKi2o/B5axIO5Ag0EVDvOgQEQALJby/ztliToGE u1lslvWQUQ6teKZVUQ7hy9bM4N83G0AGLatUBHtY6PkJBe4XkIw3sK7LoFCV2W4GSt4zWp9l+kG3 /J8Ow7EFjN0F7DrCg0M0lMg9dQz9jYSoBR8skaH3BRzCq9AKIVKV94poL/G65289L7zKDHoZnnyF qbBtedYZir0SZx+kiouZ1qnmxRPaYmH2fkuiuvYEAyzLDLYM8F5gQhdZM4YVtuvSICYPet0z4CDi JX/vZmDi3AzzoEVaKeAM/0H9f9Ni547J2+8dZSllgTrA+fq0aMJVScAObIxTAQtEq0DoNBzPpVrm W10b4bmgePrAvNkifqSr5StymSBgwvoeW6GrJiyN4XhoLOadZzwgjqioR1nXw5tXtrr5sYdkZ06b 1WWHkxtu1hFTdLC7RYNxY07ytLNM+C2lplCwCwlWB7RwI9BL1Dhre4kv8uaaX2Gksaq9mDf9MSDW qQ0TJ/RAiwMGmFrzBEYI1J2Oyeshi/dqW4/OiZAukOIlxOnt6u8zU2KL6Qjxqqna0oTbS4Zv3fRd YkuUCL6CDEJdkuRAiW+Gw+lKcMjXqApEqixhaDkoB/kwtu+2gIFTzAxMfwFN1YtNc0kJZWnFkGIW MrrwTcOwAFzlFz7wn/EyMFtg+ERcqMX0+olXDwM8MODI2+BzulPuEDEteCw09hABEBAAGJAh8EGA ECAAkFAlQ7zoECGwwACgkQe9GDIN6t+hFjuQ//UQyg49f8TytUYQaBb8R0UfI+KhQFs1Nsz2z8a3 0CD1MeiHHYWdAcomVvTkg4g5LbnYHVDrj/XagY3FN/AIE97usFbsTG+rsWAOLi7N2dN2ehWZ634k MvrgyC9uTiOdkw31+B8K5MpyySgD8e6SAzRfiu06/bcQOUyJifw8Hudpj9by4uyGhSH+kHu4afrp OduUighbsGFtcuRwwQ/w/oSk68XvPUgiOQWMZh/pVoXdFyFvrt/hgArCi8dfy5UPK58nl7jPnu/I uQXrJ50nNAFIIxPVeo2/B83KAnEZPU+qWZsdba0V+FIIQQVizLtQFMuJJk4/UTAOfJ2tBpQ9PADX 6/scqDE7unXNWdxcHTjK7KmWjXC8CyhGOx8V/rb7Ial4mZo4cTED6SNlO7dV1XYwnSctL2HCYNM3 RUe4eJ7JWuu7/Nbf6yip2eq7BQKZ9hAH/se/OSZNYsEkZ4pxUc8W5U3uAZImUwC6L74SM0jBZIuD mQhOYX6sZZ6urIn/MYlj4/hqSBFS4vTK7nXRLmtr7+5T5U5srVseUiYc+l9pu9/XD8zGIu+M2xEd 41NwP44GDQTQm0bFljRv5fSblwmi56YHPFQUIh2RZNX3kOJgeyQ3enw5uY+7ocKRVP38hpnffliL lJcO6TtHWnElS3pACbTQM0RHJox3zqU3q6K3c= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:52:58 -0000 > then you can very well send a small message in advance and ask for a public > key, or how and where to get it. I admit, i never understood autocrypt. Autocrypt was designed with folks in mind who don't think that way. We wildly speculated there'd be a lot of those. - V From nobody Sat Dec 12 14:08:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F48C3A0E63 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:08:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9yWNjnI52csg for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A08BE3A0ADF for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7DE3516057; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 23:08:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 23:08:25 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Vincent Breitmoser Cc: openpgp@ietf.org, Heiko Schaefer Message-ID: <20201212220825.jMcf-%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse> References: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <322cc545-4358-ba95-65d5-3f75b7050c0b@kuix.de> <47bcbed4-3832-6ee0-4a39-127af7e455b3@posteo.de> <87k0to3yen.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse> Mail-Followup-To: Vincent Breitmoser , openpgp@ietf.org, Heiko Schaefer User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.19-179-g6a1d3a31-dirty OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 22:08:30 -0000 Vincent Breitmoser wrote in <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse>: |> then you can very well send a small message in advance and ask for \ |> a public |> key, or how and where to get it. I admit, i never understood autocrypt. | |Autocrypt was designed with folks in mind who don't think that way. |We wildly speculated there'd be a lot of those. Well yes, sure. It is just, i guess i "never gonna fall for Modern Love". I find it wasteful, superfluous, and over-engineered. And in my opinion it is not bad advice to users to say just that. In S/MIME that is much better, but of course you need a CA. I have a CACert S/MIME certificate, i had to verify its email address, and if i send a S/MIME signed mail anyone can savely save the public certificate that ships with it, when they verify it against the ... well you know how it works of course. I'd rather have the same for OpenPGP, a signed message with the public thing extractable embedded, then i at least know that the signer had the private key for that public thing at hand. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Sun Dec 13 12:13:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481813A083B for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:12:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=posteo.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJwaepQNKrjd for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout02.posteo.de (mout02.posteo.de [185.67.36.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 304693A0836 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849F12400FF for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:12:54 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1607890374; bh=+cX0EmFIDIKTL7Y84ziEaXb/HOWUQiJs+igAU8a2pC8=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=frqpiiqq53PuArQlg3vK8e85K50dsO9z4/ZXbMM9xFGXjMQHPSH3b87AjpMWOUi5X VA1G7YL/yvf2TM6jwYek26bwTpdqWZvw74YjGie4TCl6EJJlEoks4b7GzVh8I0yq07 Giawu08kGmhYOK4RSGnBYIs1yMuuuIuc7ymbSWQNYnsDtThgqUFGuPE7dlQuSkJOry ZEzroN2kXExf+HCKfbphsAeuPgu5CCFSmpXOv2t6Ma2yVsMfkDc1rMgDQzYRX7Hyrc GwTgGGT7AS+a4O80+F36oCnVm17qktpJFviUu1LdxEJ+W9HXaz0vKU1RfQm2S8uqaf GJfnMKwBQVwHw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4CvG0j3Q0Kz9rxK for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:12:52 +0100 (CET) From: John Scott To: openpgp@ietf.org Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:12:47 -0500 Message-ID: <23083923.ouqheUzb2q@t450> In-Reply-To: <20201212220825.jMcf-%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse> <20201212220825.jMcf-%steffen@sdaoden.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2412875.KlZ2vcFHjT"; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 20:12:59 -0000 --nextPart2412875.KlZ2vcFHjT Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: John Scott To: openpgp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:12:47 -0500 Message-ID: <23083923.ouqheUzb2q@t450> In-Reply-To: <20201212220825.jMcf-%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse> <20201212220825.jMcf-%steffen@sdaoden.eu> On Saturday, December 12, 2020 5:08:25 PM EST Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > I'd rather have the same for OpenPGP, a signed message with the > public thing extractable embedded, then i at least know that the > signer had the private key for that public thing at hand. I don't think it's standard but GnuPG enables this with the --include-key- block and --auto-key-import pair of options: =2D-include-key-block > This option is used to embed the actual signing key into a > data signature. The embedded key is stripped down to a > single user id and includes only the signing subkey used to > create the signature as well as as valid encryption subkeys.=20 > All other info is removed from the key to keep it and thus > the signature small. This option is the OpenPGP counterpart > to the gpgsm option --include-certs. =2D-auto-key-import > This is an offline mechanism to get a missing key for > signature verification and for later encryption to this key.=20 > If this option is enabled and a signature includes an > embedded key, that key is used to verify the signature and=20 > on verification success that key is imported. The default is > --no-auto-key-import. > =20 > On the sender (signing) site the option --include-key-block > needs to be used to put the public part of the signing key as > =E2=80=9CKey Block subpacket=E2=80=9D into the signature. --nextPart2412875.KlZ2vcFHjT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYIAB0WIQT287WtmxUhmhucNnhyvHFIwKstpwUCX9Z1vwAKCRByvHFIwKst p+C2AQCCuh4bi9aR5OKc+u9rebFPmNdGof1Y9BOt1xuynFYVUgEAkkVxV9kgjhE+ 3yjvO1JY97rmVJvKStJog9mYBuU0+wY= =c4PA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2412875.KlZ2vcFHjT-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 13:20:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384A13A12B0 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:20:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 905ZDZTpUEa9 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5456D3A12AE for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:20:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8C61316057; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:20:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:20:26 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: John Scott Cc: openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201214212026.aFyyN%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <23083923.ouqheUzb2q@t450> References: <20201211202818.bul-I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <2L846BD1235O5.2AHC2UF19W9NU@my.amazin.horse> <20201212220825.jMcf-%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <23083923.ouqheUzb2q@t450> Mail-Followup-To: John Scott , openpgp@ietf.org User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.20-84-g7268a84d OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] key distribution by email strategy X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:20:32 -0000 Hello. John Scott wrote in <23083923.ouqheUzb2q@t450>: |On Saturday, December 12, 2020 5:08:25 PM EST Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> I'd rather have the same for OpenPGP, a signed message with the |> public thing extractable embedded, then i at least know that the |> signer had the private key for that public thing at hand. |I don't think it's standard but GnuPG enables this with the --include-key- |block and --auto-key-import pair of options: | |--include-key-block |> This option is used to embed the actual signing key into a |> data signature. The embedded key is stripped down to a |> single user id and includes only the signing subkey used to |> create the signature as well as as valid encryption subkeys.=20 |> All other info is removed from the key to keep it and thus |> the signature small. This option is the OpenPGP counterpart |> to the gpgsm option --include-certs. | |--auto-key-import |> This is an offline mechanism to get a missing key for |> signature verification and for later encryption to this key.=20 |> If this option is enabled and a signature includes an |> embedded key, that key is used to verify the signature and=20 |> on verification success that key is imported. The default is |> --no-auto-key-import. |> =20 |> On the sender (signing) site the option --include-key-block |> needs to be used to put the public part of the signing key as |> =E2=80=9CKey Block subpacket=E2=80=9D into the signature. Very interesting! I did not know that indeed, i am still with gpg 1.4 ;-), but gnupg 2.25 is standard in CRUX-Linux, too, so. Yes, that is a very, very good thing then, in my opinion! Begs the question, if i will implement OpenPGP support next year (after the MIME rewrite that thing needs first), can i somehow integrate this with email when using standard OpenPGP MIME format. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Thu Dec 17 04:47:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietf.org Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A06E53A03F8; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 04:47:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: openpgp-chairs@ietf.org, openpgp@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <160820923564.10490.10205450585186601631@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 04:47:15 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Magnus Westerlund's No Objection on charter-ietf-openpgp-02-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 12:47:16 -0000 Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-openpgp-02-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-openpgp/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the definition of un-interested party? By reviewing are they not sufficiently interested to be an "interested party"? From nobody Thu Dec 17 05:02:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3023A0637; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:02:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9sPFaceUEmx; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFA0A3A061B; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47036BE4D; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:02:31 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4wT9WiV7beW; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:02:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8D2B2BE2C; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:02:29 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1608210149; bh=Q6kGRzleY/TtwXdrNGFO979fYIDWFSqGbHFlEElhxi0=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DwfqjigIW23mAJEn+3F4laVbShumydKn05UdcxTZc7s4d20r8rcQEWts/8Xw571I5 ARtCGeGuRXQmnGS7XFBZsgD7i6crQ7xMCBn9a4JGOcrBm280G0amQSU8dzZJLegp4R OCPAJVp59suC6MrEyHBD39T6PLc/aUZfGVuRSxy0= To: Magnus Westerlund , The IESG Cc: openpgp@ietf.org, openpgp-chairs@ietf.org References: <160820923564.10490.10205450585186601631@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:02:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <160820923564.10490.10205450585186601631@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VSjVrvLfDp8uKV2aG9nbNVOwnLPFVtTcP" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Magnus Westerlund's No Objection on charter-ietf-openpgp-02-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:02:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --VSjVrvLfDp8uKV2aG9nbNVOwnLPFVtTcP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FCv4HJWM24QUXw59qSvm5GflGcyBgD1aJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Magnus Westerlund , The IESG Cc: openpgp@ietf.org, openpgp-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Magnus Westerlund's No Objection on charter-ietf-openpgp-02-03: (with COMMENT) References: <160820923564.10490.10205450585186601631@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160820923564.10490.10205450585186601631@ietfa.amsl.com> --FCv4HJWM24QUXw59qSvm5GflGcyBgD1aJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E7F9308244352850E59DBB8C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E7F9308244352850E59DBB8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Magnus, On 17/12/2020 12:47, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker wrote: > What is the definition of un-interested party? By reviewing are they > not sufficiently interested to be an "interested party"? There are various groups of people that are more or less loosely or tightly associated with specific implementations so we wanted to make it clear that such a group piling on for a thing they really like (perhaps for good reason) isn't sufficient for adoption. I don't think it'd be useful to try define that more precisely as we'd get it wrong and maybe just irritate people, so best I can see it'll have to depend on WG chair judgement as to which reviews count that way or not. Cheers, S. --------------E7F9308244352850E59DBB8C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:33:47 -0000 --=-aB9Fxt6jduBfzznQirtJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Understood, maybe there are some other word that could be used that better express this aspect. Something for people to consider.=20 Cheers Magnus On Thu, 2020-12-17 at 13:02 +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Hi Magnus, >=20 > On 17/12/2020 12:47, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker wrote: > > What is the definition of un-interested party? By reviewing are they > > not sufficiently interested to be an "interested party"? >=20 > There are various groups of people that are more or less > loosely or tightly associated with specific implementations > so we wanted to make it clear that such a group piling on > for a thing they really like (perhaps for good reason) isn't > sufficient for adoption. I don't think it'd be useful to try > define that more precisely as we'd get it wrong and maybe > just irritate people, so best I can see it'll have to depend > on WG chair judgement as to which reviews count that way or > not. >=20 > Cheers, > S. --=-aB9Fxt6jduBfzznQirtJ Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCErYw ggX0MIID3KADAgECAg8BdlE9InYZOYLl1zGep4IwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwRzELMAkGA1UEBhMC U0UxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVyaWNzc29uMSUwIwYDVQQDDBxFcmljc3NvbiBOTCBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIENB IHYzMB4XDTIwMTIxMTA5NTg0OVoXDTIzMTIxMjA5NTg0OVowXjERMA8GA1UECgwIRXJpY3Nzb24x GjAYBgNVBAMMEU1hZ251cyBXZXN0ZXJsdW5kMS0wKwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFh5tYWdudXMud2VzdGVy bHVuZEBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCIT6U9ddUp UCEryIA27xtF8WsRAIfc5jBavfu0OGDmwITYYRD2PaMEdEK+I4dqz0f6xcCrDnBk2Xj+JxjhaRkq 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--=-aB9Fxt6jduBfzznQirtJ-- From nobody Fri Dec 18 09:20:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietf.org Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262123A0AF3; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:20:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , openpgp-chairs@ietf.org, openpgp@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <160831201514.3795.5348470671129500290@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:20:15 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] WG Action: Rechartered Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:20:15 -0000 The Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) WG in the Security Area of the IETF has been rechartered. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Proposed WG Chairs: Stephen Farrell Daniel Gillmor Assigned Area Director: Benjamin Kaduk Security Area Directors: Benjamin Kaduk Roman Danyliw Mailing list: Address: openpgp@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/openpgp/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-openpgp/ OpenPGP is an Internet standard that covers object encryption, object signing, and identity certification. These were defined by the first incarnation of the OpenPGP working group. The following is an excerpt from the charter of the original incarnation of the openpgp working group > The goal of the OpenPGP working group is to provide IETF > standards for the algorithms and formats of PGP processed > objects as well as providing the MIME framework for exchanging > them via e-mail or other transport protocols. The working group concluded this work and was closed in March of 2008. In the intervening period, there has been a rough consensus reached that the RFC that defined the IETF openpgp standard, RFC4880, is in need of revision. This incarnation of the working group is chartered to primarily produce a revision of RFC4880 to address issues that have been identified by the community since the working group was originally closed. These revisions will include, but are not necessarily limited to: - Inclusion of elliptic curves recommended by the Crypto Forum Research Group (CFRG) (see note below) - A symmetric encryption mechanism that offers modern message integrity protection (e.g. AEAD) - Revision of mandatory-to-implement algorithm selection and deprecation of weak algorithms - An updated public-key fingerprint mechanism The Working Group will perform the following work: - Revise RFC4880. The intent is to start from the current rfc4880bis draft. - Other work related to OpenPGP may be entertained by the working group as long as it does not interfere with the completion of the RFC4880 revision. As the revision of RFC4880 is the primary goal of the working group, other work may be undertaken, so long as: 1. The work will not unduly delay the closure of the working group after the revision is finished (unless the working group is rechartered). 2. The work has widespread support in the working group. These additional work items may only be added with approval from the responsible Area Director who may additionally require re-chartering for certain work items, as needed. Inclusion of CFRG Curves ----------------------------- The Working Group will consider CFRG curves as possible Mandatory to Implement (MTI) algorithms. Working Group Process -------------------------- The working group will endeavor to complete most if not all of its work online on the working group's mailing list. We expect that the requirement for face-to-face sessions at IETF meetings to be minimal. For the revision of RFC 4880, all changes from RFC 4880, and for other work items, all content, require both consensus on the mailing list and the demonstration of interoperable support by at least two independent implementations, before being submitted to the IESG. Furthermore, the working group will adopt no I-D's as working group items unless there is a review by at least two un-interested parties of the I-D as part of the adoption process. Milestones: Jun 2021 - submit RFC 4880 revision to the IESG From nobody Fri Dec 18 09:28:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1200E3A0B02 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:28:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfhglIhZuwmY for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0D8C3A0AD0 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8504BBE2C for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:28:22 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7sr9V0nFgu8N for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:28:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CF0AEBE2F for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:28:19 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1608312500; bh=CkbJH0dqkpuY9yrSY6k5jEZG0b/t7Wu4NRoA0q5MbJE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=qEZtxIQc+dYzya+vTXd3xu6XxL6849PLE+ILh2RV8vF0Ze4X/h04g/GJYAjj70VNd x5TORwBWcVMDQ2oIZc1Eu79CQwrsuFAPRMh50jJzCZCJsJKzerrA9UwrND3v0QhxZy J5MPWEYXjQt3On0dfb2DJiooal9aLglKJmYJaF0U= To: "openpgp@ietf.org" References: <160831201514.3795.5348470671129500290@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <9c2cae97-ff2a-f2ac-8979-c9235cc263d5@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:28:19 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <160831201514.3795.5348470671129500290@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AIljCSU3cMBzbqXVBvTvtE5VGzDQ4sBUC" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] WG Action: Rechartered Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:28:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AIljCSU3cMBzbqXVBvTvtE5VGzDQ4sBUC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="jpK8lTadR8ep0PHgpRua0D8P5YB1O1Du1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "openpgp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <9c2cae97-ff2a-f2ac-8979-c9235cc263d5@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [openpgp] WG Action: Rechartered Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) References: <160831201514.3795.5348470671129500290@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160831201514.3795.5348470671129500290@ietfa.amsl.com> --jpK8lTadR8ep0PHgpRua0D8P5YB1O1Du1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F3167A0208148B377E8C6A22" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F3167A0208148B377E8C6A22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I guess we're official now! DKG and I will chat soonish and get back with a plan. I'm guessing that'll involve starting in the early new year. Cheers, S. On 18/12/2020 17:20, The IESG wrote: > The Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) WG in the Secu= rity > Area of the IETF has been rechartered. For additional information, plea= se > contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. >=20 > Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy (openpgp) > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > Current status: Proposed WG >=20 > Chairs: > Stephen Farrell > Daniel Gillmor >=20 > Assigned Area Director: > Benjamin Kaduk >=20 > Security Area Directors: > Benjamin Kaduk > Roman Danyliw >=20 > Mailing list: > Address: openpgp@ietf.org > To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp > Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/ >=20 > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/openpgp/ >=20 > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-openpgp/ >=20 > OpenPGP is an Internet standard that covers object encryption, object > signing, and identity certification. These were defined by the first > incarnation of the OpenPGP working group. >=20 > The following is an excerpt from the charter of the original incarnatio= n > of the openpgp working group >=20 >> The goal of the OpenPGP working group is to provide IETF >> standards for the algorithms and formats of PGP processed >> objects as well as providing the MIME framework for exchanging >> them via e-mail or other transport protocols. >=20 > The working group concluded this work and was closed in March of 2008. > In the intervening period, there has been a rough consensus reached tha= t > the RFC that defined the IETF openpgp standard, RFC4880, is in need of > revision. >=20 > This incarnation of the working group is chartered to primarily produce= > a revision of RFC4880 to address issues that have been identified by th= e > community since the working group was originally closed. >=20 > These revisions will include, but are not necessarily limited to: >=20 > - Inclusion of elliptic curves recommended by the Crypto Forum > Research Group (CFRG) (see note below) >=20 > - A symmetric encryption mechanism that offers modern message integrity= > protection (e.g. AEAD) >=20 > - Revision of mandatory-to-implement algorithm selection and deprecatio= n > of weak algorithms >=20 > - An updated public-key fingerprint mechanism >=20 > The Working Group will perform the following work: >=20 > - Revise RFC4880. The intent is to start from the current rfc4880bis d= raft. >=20 > - Other work related to OpenPGP may be entertained by the working group= > as long as it does not interfere with the completion of the RFC4880 > revision. As the revision of RFC4880 is the primary goal of the working= > group, other work may be undertaken, so long as: >=20 > 1. The work will not unduly delay the closure of the working group afte= r > the revision is finished (unless the working group is rechartered). >=20 > 2. The work has widespread support in the working group. >=20 > These additional work items may only be added with approval from the > responsible Area Director who may additionally require re-chartering > for certain work items, as needed. >=20 > Inclusion of CFRG Curves > ----------------------------- >=20 > The Working Group will consider CFRG curves as possible Mandatory to > Implement (MTI) algorithms. >=20 > Working Group Process > -------------------------- >=20 > The working group will endeavor to complete most if not all of its work= > online on the working group's mailing list. We expect that the > requirement for face-to-face sessions at IETF meetings to be minimal. >=20 > For the revision of RFC 4880, all changes from RFC 4880, and for other > work items, all content, require both consensus on the mailing list and= > the demonstration of interoperable support by at least two independent > implementations, before being submitted to the IESG. >=20 > Furthermore, the working group will adopt no I-D's as working group > items unless there is a review by at least two un-interested parties of= > the I-D as part of the adoption process. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > Jun 2021 - submit RFC 4880 revision to the IESG >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > openpgp mailing list > openpgp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp >=20 --------------F3167A0208148B377E8C6A22 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; 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KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------F3167A0208148B377E8C6A22-- --jpK8lTadR8ep0PHgpRua0D8P5YB1O1Du1-- --AIljCSU3cMBzbqXVBvTvtE5VGzDQ4sBUC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl/c5rMFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pW 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for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:56:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=GE6HDVOW; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=KNm6YXIs Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qs3CHdes0p-a for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:116::7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B61B3A09F9 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:56:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019; t=1608339368; h=from : to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=8vkVaVSjBQ8GR0SWD/cbVzq+DMiLkIsKNaCya4xqMUw=; b=GE6HDVOW2nfu37etw87wSN3lxaEfU3iZyHBXd9rK6fbU8IR79YemKpdIfxLzrT1hv6C8H n4WMEm0MPxCZB57Dg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019rsa; t=1608339368; h=from : to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=8vkVaVSjBQ8GR0SWD/cbVzq+DMiLkIsKNaCya4xqMUw=; b=KNm6YXIsF7COUr3JhLNzZ4NQBGqH6QoNZ0nYqlOU7CvPSe+kc07qBFvEhzuIL4Tzcj9/d pPWKy0sugKiST2MhDjmOnw8VmNu0J2H7dNF75olj7XoYEY7klErYqPyGgRADmjSad0OmeS6 Erea7XdMUyZSRRLflltaMEqrQPH1fnrlITOB4nKk1ryhUaRRR7owRhCXvcMDvlb3fqlHvbj jvr3+ydmkLUsEMN0RlTHeyCb1jdBlyCnLHKl/+OcKRZICsbYSqM7tUqIfiDkcQsKZWz3Wdk xg0pJr1whaiWPF/XqX1y063Q3Hfi0Fre9DwsaQ5+uZmiKfAxdaGXsgGMZ5tw== Received: from fifthhorseman.net (unknown [108.58.6.98]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 66934F9A6; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 19:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 137342010F; Fri, 18 Dec 2020 18:53:20 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Bart Butler , Kai Engert Cc: openpgp@ietf.org, "Neal H. Walfield" , Wiktor Kwapisiewicz In-Reply-To: References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> <8dd0976f-f85d-66ed-489f-98fdacf8cf82@kuix.de> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQULCQgH AgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZARYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5Hw3BQkFpJWB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXGDYEA/j0ERjPxDleKMZ2LDcWc/3o5cLFwAVzBKQHppu0Be5IWAP0aeTnyEqlp RTE7M8zugwkhYeUYfYu0BjecDUMnYz6iDLgzBF3kewUWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQK1IuW0GZmcrs2mx CYMl8IHse0tMF8cP7eBNXevrlx2ZiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUC XeR7TwUJAiGl/gCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCXeR7BQAKCRDEDyVU MvKBD7KmAQCHs+7588C4jto6fMje0Nu97zzoppjJM7lrGF2rVnbHvwD+MgmGUbHzPSUrTWnZBQDi /QM595bxNrBA4N1CiXhs2AMJEPIGkReQOOXGpp0BAM7YeBnt/UNvxJAGm4DidSfHU7RDMWe6Tgux HrH21cDkAQC9leNFXJsQ7F2ZniRPHa8CkictcQEKPL8VCWpfe8LbArg4BF3ke5wSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0Cf+EiAXtntQMf51xpqb6uZ5O0eCLAZtkg0SXHjA1JlEwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5HucAhsMBQkCIaVkAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGdYcBANYnW7VyL2CncKH1 iO4Zr0IwfdIv6rai1PUHL98pVi3cAP9tMh85CKGDa0Xi/fptQH41meollLW5tLb/bEWMuUNuBQ== Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 18:53:19 -0500 Message-ID: <87sg82zn68.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Put Signature in an Email's Header X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 00:56:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain On Fri 2020-12-11 12:19:23 +0000, Bart Butler wrote: > Does signature.asc even show up as an attachment if you set the > disposition to inline for PGP/MIME? That would be the obvious solution > for suppressing unwanted signature.asc attachments for non-aware > recipients. Setting a MIME part as Content-Disposition: inline (RFC 2183) is intended to encourage the recieving MUA to display the part inline to the reader. if the receiving MUA has no way of rendering the signature part (Content-Type: application/pgp-signature), then there's no way that it can actually render it "inline", so most MUAs will simply ignore the Content-Disposition: inline header, rather than hiding the message part entirely. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX91A7wAKCRDEDyVUMvKB D5JUAP9GKq/5mZbbfEY9YHjlaL/64Bdvu+/EUWgKNVRQSLzRLwEA/zIxZ0iMuyG9 PyBKQNbCbVTFQBJrp6Jt59BUWWfsKQ8= =U6CU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 22 06:36:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6543D3A10DA; Tue, 22 Dec 2020 06:36:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9g0TPDuFWynO; Tue, 22 Dec 2020 06:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ED533A10DB; Tue, 22 Dec 2020 06:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1ED6BEE7; Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:36:42 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwfXdA-H5Gae; Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:36:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0BB0EBEEC; Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:36:38 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1608647798; bh=K2gBMXf9jeOvbsBXxNaIsjSzDZ/oe1xxBNrahwBrq4c=; h=From:Subject:To:Cc:Date:From; b=e+tipa8X4b3ZJpTnouyk8ozqtm4V3XudHtp6YPTYM23QC0Z6eKAyP5T0DiVwKF9hO HstXrnG8iY6qUUyAIjdzKwG/KOFpAO0/QOUHrioYQYelqpbb4zU9Q7D4nvcVnmfXzu 6iIXN+QE34TuGmSSfKTA5aL89L19C4siYCMO9TcA= From: Stephen Farrell To: "openpgp@ietf.org" Cc: openpgp-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <5c51792e-da0b-352f-d97a-2c642ff8caaf@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:36:35 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aXd8BHUcPhYbAuEG88se55dKckA5rZw9P" Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] looking for co-editor volunteers X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:36:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --aXd8BHUcPhYbAuEG88se55dKckA5rZw9P Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="zSm8DqwkjJ0K6l6U8SyrZ19n5HVkCpqGf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "openpgp@ietf.org" Cc: openpgp-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <5c51792e-da0b-352f-d97a-2c642ff8caaf@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: looking for co-editor volunteers --zSm8DqwkjJ0K6l6U8SyrZ19n5HVkCpqGf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------516BDF35850F92097C23265F" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------516BDF35850F92097C23265F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Now that we're an official WG again, we'd like to get going in the new year tackling the various changes to 4880 that are included in our charter. As was brought up on the list previously, part of that is that we want to identify a co-editor to work = with Werner on the new version of the WG draft. As there's been a bit of a history here (that we don't need to revisit) we think it'll be better if the co-editor is someone perceived by WG participants as not necessarily being committed to all the text in the current draft-10. We're looking in particular for someone who will help the group stick to the charter, listen to input from multiple parties, help the chairs ascertain the consensus of the list, and translate that info into actionable changes to the repository. We expect that an editor will want to be comfortable with (or be ok getting comfortable with) git and markdown. So, if you're up for doing that, please send mail to the chairs at openpgp-chairs@ietf.org (not the list, just the chairs!) before Jan 6th and we'll see what we end up with. Around or soon after that date, we'll also send some mail to the list with details of specific issues to try tackle first, use of issue trackers, possible interim meetings and all the other necessary bureaucracy for which WG chairs are famous:-) Cheers, S&D. --------------516BDF35850F92097C23265F Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 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--------------516BDF35850F92097C23265F-- --zSm8DqwkjJ0K6l6U8SyrZ19n5HVkCpqGf-- --aXd8BHUcPhYbAuEG88se55dKckA5rZw9P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl/iBHMFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rI nQ/+Kh6v+2XVHpuWHZnCAeASqIzldXIzTQJqGPacvjwxAKx02Hyqh4a3tACIEwf/ZDrbr5AK+hWo aDyrkd3b0b5M/4HKrB9VUcjkKXX/tJFZQ0KG7G4w2L2HM9U3pYEJ8oZrFfXtLTYAZYrYkRzn3oxf 7YRbMA/NkXTXGWjpAZ+XyD0M4Drq5DNO0S0JHfCtF9WxhXf6FTpl13fqPFx8fNtG1jaHZ88q4oW8 PD8OpIbmwcpJtYAWMn8RnVXlNhWJVe7uf6wj5jdnMLesMnCP8FWM4YG/mpEgWeHnNc7lmwP4NXuI BUAcaNKWOnqzNmH6S+kH1Ja3R8WWMhR9uaWu7UmbtA4zqS9YB7x98uatzPAwOLU51ZwerpUuuG06 /20q+Ie3OXPfNJftDcMMpfRndEH8gx1JegrJqbaL0cTwoGaWYdtaM2fx93d8Sc+GfiwYZblgwRET e0eWcJvA07WxLfkOHw+VfBYy5GravGOd9BdJXRDxA9ffrh9GZJY7d71goGHPSVVB3hi47Vq1I/L6 45l5szovY8E9jBzM1nztwBHQSaY/822tC3Tx8of2sX7kkui72AWu6Br458g+M687Zu0FTuP4w/Yl aSlKl3gTtoh1vRtjrpeamFmmcaPHREw+b3KzaPYSGMcNj8QHtTqQReyKkgrV7MjaUOE7K7S5tJQw DeU= =8CCo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aXd8BHUcPhYbAuEG88se55dKckA5rZw9P-- From nobody Wed Dec 23 13:58:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180A43A0E7C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 13:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A66x3Fw6wox8 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4861D3A0E8C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 13:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ksC9V-0004Ju-SG for openpgp@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:58:37 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ksC9V-0006RJ-CZ for openpgp@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 22:58:37 +0100 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 22:58:37 +0100 Message-ID: <87r1nguquq.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: openpgp@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Possible ambiguity in description of regular expressions: [^][] X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:58:42 -0000 The description of regular expressions in Section 8 of 4880 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880#section-8) says: A range is a sequence of characters enclosed in '[]'. It normally matches any single character from the sequence. Is an empty sequence allowed? If so, [] (1) is a valid regular expression meaning *no match*. If the sequence begins with '^', it matches any single character not from the rest of the sequence. Even if we assume that a sequence is non-empty, the rest of a one character sequence after removing the first character is empty. So, it sounds like: [^] (2) is definitely a valid regular expression meaning *match anything*. To include a literal ']' in the sequence, make it the first character (following a possible '^'). So, to match anything but a literal ']' we have to use: [^]] (3) And to match anything but '[' or ']' we have to use: [^][] (4) Wait... that can also be parsed as match anything (2) followed by match nothing (1)! Perhaps I'm misreading the standard. I'd appreciate confirmation or any help clarifying my mistake. Thanks, :) Neal From nobody Thu Dec 24 05:58:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2523A1266 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 05:58:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=bI011Wyg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fifthhorseman.net header.b=m2U7eI3D Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Un_hFtx-o0x9 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 05:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:116::7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEC243A1264 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 05:58:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019; t=1608818302; h=from : to : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=4aUQERHdJuYV+VoLkeaYhkKMrUh5Vit93dnVxbWGwOg=; b=bI011WygkZoXBKc0Xvcw70IFGGxQgvvgDixx8ghO73gAzUmAZWQU0Nx5Qq5zPvb1s9zRs Gs/fD+sWcVw1yitDg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019rsa; t=1608818302; h=from : to : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=4aUQERHdJuYV+VoLkeaYhkKMrUh5Vit93dnVxbWGwOg=; b=m2U7eI3DIsoofG0ySUzFhpn69lz454jCwz2v4SjGOgmXnS/1VzqpOQ/gEChQAGgRUcpT0 O1QOcjBWZVJwLZP5+cLqS2ieyDO4k0uCqrti4e5kKpY99goDjgU2ljMvyKHv/oIZ7Bi2Z/N ZBo8fev7779ue6oUugi4I8OzWjr20shFM6GuM1qUAPC6UU4Cp8GNHUzgmn3uQOrgsrZ9kbZ tXBPkhB+38ZXZjBxcq47wFMJcvDs1XZR02Ks0twGgFh6hTxbz0A3iALlWf1gmfnqzI8kO2M ilia3OI7iSMrq/Y9vvKQJYbBmorz3s8pA9nyxwT9bfJaPmqAKpRRLkaKMnEw== Received: from fifthhorseman.net (unknown [108.58.6.98]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4453EF9A5; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 08:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 740ED20426; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 08:58:19 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: "Neal H. Walfield" , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87r1nguquq.wl-neal@walfield.org> References: <87r1nguquq.wl-neal@walfield.org> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQULCQgH AgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZARYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5Hw3BQkFpJWB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXGDYEA/j0ERjPxDleKMZ2LDcWc/3o5cLFwAVzBKQHppu0Be5IWAP0aeTnyEqlp RTE7M8zugwkhYeUYfYu0BjecDUMnYz6iDLgzBF3kewUWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQK1IuW0GZmcrs2mx CYMl8IHse0tMF8cP7eBNXevrlx2ZiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUC XeR7TwUJAiGl/gCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCXeR7BQAKCRDEDyVU MvKBD7KmAQCHs+7588C4jto6fMje0Nu97zzoppjJM7lrGF2rVnbHvwD+MgmGUbHzPSUrTWnZBQDi /QM595bxNrBA4N1CiXhs2AMJEPIGkReQOOXGpp0BAM7YeBnt/UNvxJAGm4DidSfHU7RDMWe6Tgux HrH21cDkAQC9leNFXJsQ7F2ZniRPHa8CkictcQEKPL8VCWpfe8LbArg4BF3ke5wSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0Cf+EiAXtntQMf51xpqb6uZ5O0eCLAZtkg0SXHjA1JlEwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJd5HucAhsMBQkCIaVkAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGdYcBANYnW7VyL2CncKH1 iO4Zr0IwfdIv6rai1PUHL98pVi3cAP9tMh85CKGDa0Xi/fptQH41meollLW5tLb/bEWMuUNuBQ== Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 08:58:18 -0500 Message-ID: <87tusbuwzp.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Possible ambiguity in description of regular expressions: [^][] X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:58:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hi Neal-- nice find! it's rather ugly, though. the most straightforward way to resolve it seems to be to say that sequences in a [] must be non-empty. This means we don't get to say "[]", but that's ok because we already have ".", which will handily replace it with the same semantics. We also don't get to say "[^]". While i don't know how to replicate the "no match" semantics, i'm also unclear where it could possibly be useful. Seems like a sufficient clarification would be: -A range is a sequence of characters enclosed in '[]'. +A range is a non-empty sequence of characters enclosed in '[]'. Are there any implementers or users of the regex spec who see this as a problem? Neal, perhaps you want to formally file this as an erratum on rfc4880? --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQsv6x2UaqQJzY+dXHEDyVUMvKBDwUCX+SeewAKCRDEDyVUMvKB D6w7AQD/JyIESpDA52V4J/BEQw8ONEnvhqIWkqjnOD9+1qEHDwEAiKSCdqjWRHtV vNOg6x+UFMe8/cIe13n3toHApjjADwA= =LfOF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Dec 27 02:57:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AC23A03F4 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 02:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tCGmjIbMrmkK for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 02:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.dasr.de (mail.dasr.de [217.69.77.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 517B63A03EC for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 02:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e79cc0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.231.156.192] helo=forster.huenfield.org) by mail.dasr.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ktTjw-0004Qi-JA; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 10:57:32 +0000 Received: from grit.huenfield.org ([192.168.20.9] helo=grit.walfield.org) by forster.huenfield.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ktTjw-0000p7-Bp; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 11:57:32 +0100 Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 11:57:32 +0100 Message-ID: <87mtxzv7mr.wl-neal@walfield.org> From: "Neal H. Walfield" To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor Cc: openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87tusbuwzp.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> References: <87r1nguquq.wl-neal@walfield.org> <87tusbuwzp.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.20.9 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: neal@walfield.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on forster.huenfield.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Possible ambiguity in description of regular expressions: [^][] X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 10:57:38 -0000 Hi Daniel, Thanks for following up. On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:58:18 +0100, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > nice find! it's rather ugly, though. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. > the most straightforward way to resolve it seems to be to say that > sequences in a [] must be non-empty. Indeed. > This means we don't get to say "[]", but that's ok because we already > have ".", which will handily replace it with the same semantics. We > also don't get to say "[^]". While i don't know how to replicate the > "no match" semantics, i'm also unclear where it could possibly be > useful. For a non-empty regex, you can use an anchor where it doesn't belong. So, 'a^' won't match anything. Likewise, '$a' won't match anything. This is obviously context sensitive, so it is not a perfect replacement, but I don't think "no match" is that useful in practice. > Seems like a sufficient clarification would be: > > -A range is a sequence of characters enclosed in '[]'. > +A range is a non-empty sequence of characters enclosed in '[]'. We need to exclude [^] as well. Perhaps: +A range is a non-empty sequence of characters excluding the optional leading ^ enclosed in '[]'. > Neal, perhaps you want to formally file this as an erratum on rfc4880? I'll do that. Thanks, Neal From nobody Thu Dec 31 14:22:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF183A0C4A; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:22:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R1r0kw9rSbn0; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81DC23A0C4C; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 0BVMMO5b028512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:22:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:22:23 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Neal H. Walfield" Cc: Wiktor Kwapisiewicz , openpgp@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201231222223.GG93151@kduck.mit.edu> References: <48be3fcf-cdce-9ef4-655b-63b6dddf9310@kuix.de> <20201211095836.5218a72e@computer> <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <878sa4y7hy.wl-neal@walfield.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Put Signature in an Email's Header X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 22:22:33 -0000 On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 11:14:33AM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:44 +0100, > Wiktor Kwapisiewicz wrote: > > On 11.12.2020 09:58, Hanno Böck wrote: > > > FWIW I have heard lots of complains about the signature attachment, > > > which is why I stopped sending signed emails by default a long time ago. > > > > Too bad signatures cannot be put into headers (just like DKIM > > signatures). That would not confuse people (because they generally > > don't inspect headers) while providing necessary info for clients that > > understand them. > > When you say cannot, I think you mean there is no standard to so. > Technically, I think, it is possible, and it is a neat idea. You may want to keep an eye on draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures that is defining an HTTP header field for conveying a signature over (a subset of) the message. It seems like at least some of the topics covered would be relevant for the email case as well. -Ben