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I flew, said the boy, with a grin From Checco_Lollie@madasafish.com Tue Jan 18 20:13:23 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26287; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:13:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200501190113.UAA26287@ietf.org> Received: from c906bc45.virtua.com.br ([201.6.188.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cr4ej-0002SE-LM; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:29:12 -0500 Received: from mail.wwa.com (201.6.188.69) by 201.6.188.69 (auctionv.43) with SMTP id <186342i6k> (Authid: 6252); Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:06:48 +0600 Reply-To: "Delfina Weiss" From: "Delfina Weiss" To: l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org Cc: policy-request@ietf.org, raven@ietf.org, opes-archive@ietf.org, nat-request@ietf.org, tel@ietf.org, ipv6-request@ietf.org, adslmib@ietf.org, ldap-dir-admin@ietf.org, gaa16739@ietf.org Subject: We called you but no one was home Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:11:48 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--63687_9917548.tkd745" X-Spam-Score: 6.0 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 ----63687_9917548.tkd745 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Applicant, Your application was processed and approved. 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Delfina Weiss, Account Manager Vik Marketing 4990 Icele Avenue New Haven, CT 06503 not interested -> http://chatham.florate.com/st.html ----63687_9917548.tkd745-- From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Wed Jan 19 10:01:38 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA18635 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrHaS-0004bk-Dn for opes-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:17:41 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0JEk0sZ072719; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0JEk0BF072718; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:46:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0JEjgr1072679 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:45:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from f02m-13-143.d3.club-internet.fr ([62.34.98.143] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CrH4J-0004dE-HU; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:45:39 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050119140442.05218650@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:44:11 +0100 To: "Abbie Barbir" , OPES Group From: jfcm Subject: Re: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Cc: Markus Hofmann , Martin Stecher , abbieb@nortelnetworks.com In-Reply-To: <87AC5F88F03E6249AEA68D40BD3E00BE02C977B5@zcarhxm2.corp.nor tel.com> References: <87AC5F88F03E6249AEA68D40BD3E00BE02C977B5@zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-729E131D; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-41EE723C51D1=======" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e --=======AVGMAIL-41EE723C51D1======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24735758==.ALT"; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-729E131D --=====================_24735758==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-729E131D Dear Abbie, I started reading the draft in detail. I am not sure that the organized case description includes all the proposed schemes, but it seems to follow a good logic (I am not sure however that the contents are so well supported? All the more with what Martin says in his last mail - do you mean you will pass all the texts to the OPES without filtering them fist?). I will try to list all the cases we listed and those I can think of and see if they match the cases. But obviously the critical need to trigger the routing is not taken care of (I want to prevent mails to cross some MTA where the data could be copied) as I am not sure MAIL TO are supported (I have not yet tried to read the SMTP RFCs). Right now I am quite concerned by the wording and the drafts. I read that the idea is that the OPES _is_ an MTA? Also there is no interaction between MTAs (or I misread the part on "previous" commands, which should be read with a wider meaning?). If I note UA as U, MTA ad M, MSA as S, MDA as D, Filters as F and OPES as O, here is the scheme I understand: O1------O2------O3-----O4 O5 -------| | | | | | | U1- F --- F - S - F - M - F - D - F ---- F - S - F - M - F - D - F --- F - U2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | ---- F - S - F - M - F - D - F --- F - U3 | | | | | | | | | | | | O6 O7 O8 O9 O10 O11 O12 O13 O14 O15 | |<------|-------|-------| |-------------------------------| OPES are following the path starting from where they filtered or modified mails are to be resubmitted as for O7-O10 - we can have loops. Also, there are certainly some impact of the OPES of an MTA are related (O1-O5) or not as (O11-O15). Or making a network (for example O5 and O12) or not. There are certainly good reasons to reduce that schema? I also have some concern about the part 6 being quite terse about a huge problem of end to end interoperability. If I send a mail to two persons to interact based on that mail, if they do not receive the same data, this creates many problems of responsibility hence of authority. I feel there is a general problem when scaling from end-to-end (we abandon here) to brain-to-brains (what counts is what the whole systems manages to convey) interinteligibility requires a common authority (authoritative reference). Let say that American U1 sends a mail telling the other two Us "go to Rome". OPES translates on the path to "Nacht Rom" for German U2 and "tire du rhum" (fetch some rum) to French U3. There is a mismatch: where is the responsibility. Who is authoritative to try to correct the error? If I compare with the IDNA process. punycode is reversed for verification. An IDN is OK if the string transformed in xn-- by punycode and then back into ASCII by ToASCII stays the same. Ideally in this case, "fetch some rum" not being identical (equal?) to "go to rome", the process (after an acknowledgment using the text) should result in an error being sent to U1 (this is an usual response) but also to affected collaterals (U2) what is not a common behavior? Also, if a mail is duplicated to another party or not sent to one of the destinees, this should be reported. Actually, a feed back with the actual delivered text should be returned to the sender (and may be serviced by the O6 OPES to collect all the acks and report on the situation as OK or with a detail of the actions taken? In the same line, I suppose we need a WILCO process (authoritative acknowledgment) because an OPES may make a mail unreadable to the destinee. end to end delivery acknowledgement is not enough. We need a wilco one layer above. Question: such a return traffic would be high. Could we just return patches from diffs (OPES I/O differences) when the OPES is trusted? jfc --=====================_24735758==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-729E131D Dear Abbie,
I started reading the draft in detail. I am not sure that the organized case description includes all the proposed schemes, but it seems to follow a good logic (I am not sure however that the contents are so well supported? All the more with what Martin says in his last mail - do you mean you will pass all the texts to the OPES without filtering them fist?). I will try to list all the cases we listed and those I can think of and see if they match the cases. But obviously the critical need to trigger the routing is not taken care of (I want to prevent mails to cross some MTA where the data could be copied) as I am not sure MAIL TO are supported (I have not yet tried to read the SMTP RFCs).

Right now I am quite concerned by the wording and the drafts. I read that the idea is that the OPES _is_ an MTA? Also there is no interaction between MTAs (or I misread the part on "previous" commands, which should be read with a wider meaning?).

If I note UA as U, MTA ad M, MSA as S, MDA as D, Filters as F and OPES as O, here is the scheme I understand:


                                         O1------O2------O3-----O4     O5 -------|
                                         |       |       |       |     |         |
U1- F --- F - S - F - M - F - D - F ---- F - S - F - M - F - D - F --- F - U2    |
    |     |       |       |       | |                                            |
    |     |       |       |       | ---- F - S - F - M - F - D - F --- F - U3    |
    |     |       |       |       |      |       |       |       |     |         |
    O6    O7      O8      O9     O10     O11     O12     O13     O14   O15       |
          |<------|-------|-------|              |-------------------------------|

OPES are following the path starting from where they filtered or modified mails are to be resubmitted as for O7-O10 - we can have loops. Also, there are certainly some impact of the OPES of an MTA are related (O1-O5) or not as (O11-O15). Or making a network (for example O5 and O12) or not.

There are certainly good reasons to reduce that schema?

I also have some concern about the part 6 being quite terse about a huge problem of end to end interoperability. If I send a mail to two persons to interact based on that mail, if they do not receive the same data, this creates many problems of responsibility hence of authority. I feel there is a general problem when scaling from end-to-end (we abandon here) to brain-to-brains (what counts is what the whole systems manages to convey) interinteligibility requires a common authority (authoritative reference).

Let say that American U1 sends a mail telling the other two Us "go to Rome". OPES translates on the path to "Nacht Rom" for German U2 and "tire du rhum" (fetch some rum) to French U3. There is a mismatch: where is the responsibility. Who is authoritative to try to correct the error?

If I compare with the IDNA process. punycode is reversed for verification. An IDN is OK if the string transformed in xn-- by punycode and then back into ASCII by ToASCII stays the same. Ideally in this case, "fetch some rum" not being identical (equal?) to "go to rome", the process (after an acknowledgment using the text) should result in an error being sent to U1 (this is an usual response) but also to affected collaterals (U2) what is not a common behavior?

Also, if a mail is duplicated to another party or not sent to one of the destinees, this should be reported. Actually, a feed back with the actual delivered text should be returned to the sender (and may be serviced by the O6 OPES to collect all the acks and report on the situation as OK or with a detail of the actions taken?

In the same line, I suppose we need a WILCO process (authoritative acknowledgment) because an OPES may make a mail unreadable to the destinee. end to end delivery acknowledgement is not enough. We need a wilco one layer above.

Question: such a return traffic would be high. Could we just return patches from diffs (OPES I/O differences) when the OPES is trusted?

jfc
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bennett curvaceous claus cb coxcomb berkeley. allot boolean cave colloquium children. ----605626766080529682-- From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Wed Jan 19 18:37:03 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09716 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:37:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrPdG-0002of-BN for opes-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:53:11 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0JNIX38090500; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0JNIXuD090499; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:18:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0JNIXN8090420 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from tobermory.localdomain ([66.119.143.202]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0JNICK5006881 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:18:13 -0700 Received: from tobermory.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j0JNGpe4025627 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:16:51 -0700 Received: (from ho@localhost) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0JNGnTP025623; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:16:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:16:49 -0700 Message-Id: <200501192316.j0JNGnTP025623@tobermory.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: ietf-openproxy@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C84@mail.webwasher.com> Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a I wonder if it is worthwhile noting a particular kind of non-symmetry that is common today. Most people run SMTP on their local machine in order to send messages, but they do not run SMTP to receive messages; that is done by a remote server, and the user runs a different protocol (a Mail Retrieval Client?) to fetch the mail. That means that and OPES server that is closest to the user will probably be acting as an SMTP relay, while that same server will be an SMTP endpoint for messages destined to that user. Hope that's clear :-) Parts of the document are difficult to understand, particularly the part about referring to earlier commands. What is that about? Some of the content adaptation use cases seem at odds with the earlier part of the document that say that these are part of the "mail delivery agent" which is NOT part of the MTA. So I'd have expected those use cases to be out-of-scope. What am I misunderstanding? I can see "response modification" use cases that attempt to deal with "recipient unknown", for example. It would be a way of implementing a "universal identity" on a incremental basis. If delivery fails, you consult the universal identity for an alternative delivery method. Yes, the MDA or the MUA could do it, but it's a nice "in-the-network" kind of service. Yes, I think that operating on the DATA portion fits into the architecture without the need for special consideration. Hilarie From BRNQJDYMLTWRIQcaptor@a2000.es Wed Jan 19 22:37:06 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA28093 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:37:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200501200337.WAA28093@ietf.org> Received: from c-24-13-11-242.client.comcast.net ([24.13.11.242]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrTNe-00006p-VH for opes-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:53:15 -0500 X-Message-Info: ytguD6ZZF0C5EH950SXjkeAObdzX19cvGKL2E1aGMDlrfYEA55FSU2 Received: from mail pickup service by 24.13.11.242 with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:34:02 -0200 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Reply-To: "Jodie C Holcomb" From: "Jodie C Holcomb" To: "Opes-archive" Subject: get your h|gh sch00l d|ploma online Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:28:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--D6EEF44D5C43FC92F" X-Spam-Score: 13.1 (+++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d ----D6EEF44D5C43FC92F Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2D86-F" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SSS0

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From Ricks@geography.net Wed Jan 19 23:34:53 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA03082; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrUHe-0001b7-G7; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:51:03 -0500 Received: from caf88.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.30.77.88]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CrU1y-0005BL-Ko; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:34:51 -0500 Received: from [39.151.128.160] by nuzzle%DIGITS.removal.83.30.77.88 via HTTP; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:34:32 -0800 Reply-To: "linuxmail.org" From: "linuxmail.org" To: Subject: Hey Honey Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:34:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--1995111197czqu6917" Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 ----1995111197czqu6917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-%DIGITS%LCVALUES%DIGITS%DIGITS%LCVALUES" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How would you like to keep me some company? 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A secure way to reach me: http://adoredarling.com/d/1.php Regards, Sarah n ----1995111197czqu6917-- From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 20 00:24:38 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07091 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrV3k-0002vZ-DV for opes-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:40:49 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0K5AsZr044170; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0K5AsoU044167; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:10:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0K5AnaV044105 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from f03m-15-78.d3.club-internet.fr ([212.195.92.78] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CrUal-00049X-Ii; Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:10:49 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050120010810.0e0051a0@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:19:37 +0100 To: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" , ietf-openproxy@imc.org From: jfcm Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] In-Reply-To: <200501192316.j0JNGnTP025623@tobermory.localdomain> References: <200501192316.j0JNGnTP025623@tobermory.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-75495DCC X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca At 00:16 20/01/2005, The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman wrote: >I wonder if it is worthwhile noting a particular kind of non-symmetry >that is common today. Most people run SMTP on their local machine in >order to send messages, but they do not run SMTP to receive messages; >that is done by a remote server, and the user runs a different >protocol (a Mail Retrieval Client?) to fetch the mail. That means >that and OPES server that is closest to the user will probably be >acting as an SMTP relay, while that same server will be an SMTP >endpoint for messages destined to that user. Hope that's clear :-) It is very clear. However please note that MTA cascade on the mail path and that we consider OPES on MTA (not on UA), so we do not really know where the user end is. Since we are to deal with SMTP and we want to stay with MTA only we can say that the end to end finishes at the last MTA? The full symetry I documented is not for us to document it as symetric and to take care of MDA and MSA, but to understand what are the impacts the agents sequence implies and where the OPES should return even if we only care about MTA. >Parts of the document are difficult to understand, particularly >the part about referring to earlier commands. What is that about? > >Some of the content adaptation use cases seem at odds with the earlier >part of the document that say that these are part of the "mail >delivery agent" which is NOT part of the MTA. So I'd have expected >those use cases to be out-of-scope. What am I misunderstanding? I understood it as the MTA output to the MDA? This is why I put an OPES filter in each MTA filter. >I can see "response modification" use cases that attempt to >deal with "recipient unknown", for example. It would be a way >of implementing a "universal identity" on a incremental basis. >If delivery fails, you consult the universal identity for >an alternative delivery method. Yes, the MDA or the MUA could >do it, but it's a nice "in-the-network" kind of service. Are some others not too? I objected a lot to the MTA location on this very ground because the charter permits it. I repeated it is what I call ONES and not what IAB calls OPES. >Yes, I think that operating on the DATA portion fits into the >architecture without the need for special consideration. I am not sure I understand this. I need a example. Let say I have in the text something a filter should accept as "disregard the rules to apply because of the header" or to change the header, etc. Is that supported? jfc From Boyle@mailblocks.com Thu Jan 20 03:20:11 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04466; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:20:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200501200820.DAA04466@ietf.org> Received: from ip-wv-24-197-69-246.charterwv.net ([24.197.69.246]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrXng-00072J-Mt; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:36:23 -0500 Received: from [222.84.5.161] by physiology%DIGITS.dailey.24.197.69.246 via HTTP; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:23:22 -0800 Reply-To: "mailfreeway.com" From: "mailfreeway.com" To: Subject: Heyllooo Babe Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:23:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--0918120953nhks6858" X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f ----0918120953nhks6858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-%DIGITS%LCVALUES%DIGITS%DIGITS%LCVALUES" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know it might seem a little desperate, but how would you like to keep me= some company? 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A secure way to reach me: http://adoredarling.com/d/1.php Sincerely Yours, Kimberly s ----0918120953nhks6858-- From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 20 05:18:19 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA13289 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 05:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrZe3-0001oC-Hu for opes-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 05:34:32 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0KA2SOV042523; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:02:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0KA2Shn042522; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:02:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.webwasher.com (wwsmtp2.webwasher.com [213.70.80.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0KA2QvX042413 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin.stecher@WEBWASHER.com) Received: from mail.WEBWASHER.COM [192.168.0.251] by mail2.webwasher.com id 0LKO5X6M outgoing id 0LKO5X6M; 20 Jan 2005 11:02:06 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:02:06 +0100 Message-ID: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D60B36A@mail.webwasher.com> Thread-Topic: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] thread-index: AcT+NZHjI18+lkt3RmaldK8xmWMBagAm4YMAAAAFcYA= From: "Martin Stecher" To: "OPES WG (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j0KA2RvX042515 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, seems that we first need a common understanding of the wording and deployment scenario. > > Right now I am quite concerned by the wording and the drafts. > I read that the idea is that the OPES _is_ an MTA? Also there > is no interaction between MTAs (or I misread the part on > "previous" commands, which should be read with a wider meaning?). I think we should not talk about "the OPES". Please let's stick with the wording we agreed on earlier: There are two agents: OPES processor and callout server. The filtering functionality is on the callout server. No difference between HTTP and SMTP here. The callout server may even support adaptation of both messages for both protocols. That is our application agnostic approach. The callout server is an OCP server with some filtering services. The OPES processor is a standard device that sits in the data stream of the protocol we want to handle. That device gets enhanced by an OCP client that allows to vector out that data to the callout server. In HTTP the OPES processor is a proxy server; for SMTP we picked a MTA as the primary device that sits in the SMTP data stream. > > If I note UA as U, MTA ad M, MSA as S, MDA as D, Filters as F > and OPES as O, here is the scheme I understand: [...] Much too complicated in my view. Let me try to bring in the other M*A things here and map that to the normal programs that we see today when sending email: You start with an email client program such as Outlook. This is your MUA, allowing you to write the email. From there you send email to an outgoing email server. In that email server an MSA (mail submission agent) is waiting for your email and uses a MTA (mail transfer agent) within the same server to forward this email to other domains. (Communication between the MUA and MSA may already be via SMTP or something else such as MAPI; one reason why we do not concentrate on these devices). The MTA in your email server may directly contact the email server of the recipient our use other intermediate email gateways. On the sending email server, the destination email server and all intermediate gateways MTAs are running to send/receive/forward the SMTP messages. That is why we concentrate on MTAs. Nearly all email which is not locally handled within your domain, is sent this way via SMTP via two or more MTAs. In the destination email server there is then a MDA (mail delivery agent) that may put the email in the recipient's mailbox. The email client program of the recipient will then probably use a different protocol (such as POP3 or IMAP) to access the mailbox and retrieve/read the messages. |---------| |----------| |-----------| |----------| |---------| | email M| |M email M| SMTP |M email M| SMTP |M email M| |M email | | client U|----|S server T|------|T gateway T|------|T server D|----|U client | | A| |A A| |A A| |A A| |A | |---------| |----------| |-----------| |----------| |---------| | | | | OCP | OCP | OCP | | | |----------| |-----------| |----------| | callout | | callout | | callout | | server | | server | | server | |----------| |-----------| |----------| So the OPES processor might be the sender's SMTP server, the destination SMTP server or any intermediate SMTP gateway. (Which building block belongs to which authorotive domain is an important question but different from deployment to deployment). As you can see from the picture above, the MTA is either receiving or sending an email (or both) within an email server/gateway. These are the two activation points that section 5 of the draft wants to tell about. Do we agree on what I wrote here? Regards Martin From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 20 06:22:31 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17420 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Crae8-0003Ii-TK for opes-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:38:45 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0KBAbU8094304; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:10:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0KBAbg1094303; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:10:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.webwasher.com (wwsmtp2.webwasher.com [213.70.80.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0KBAZaS093967 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:10:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin.stecher@WEBWASHER.com) Received: from mail.WEBWASHER.COM [192.168.0.251] by mail2.webwasher.com id M7XLI4B7 outgoing id M7XLI4B7; 20 Jan 2005 12:10:25 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:10:25 +0100 Message-ID: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D60B36D@mail.webwasher.com> Thread-Topic: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] thread-index: AcT+gRXZfkX4cpkrQwubSy3BktB6tgAWDwsQ From: "Martin Stecher" To: "OPES WG (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j0KBAbaS094295 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hilary, > > Parts of the document are difficult to understand, particularly > the part about referring to earlier commands. What is that about? Let's have a look at a typical (minimum) SMTP dialog between two MTAs: S: - for the sender R: - for the recipient R: 220 mail.example.com Microsoft ESMTP MAIL Service, Version: 5.0.2195.6713 ready at Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:24:40 +0100 S: HELO ThatsMe R: 250 mail.example.com Hello [192.168.0.138] S: MAIL FROM: steve@sender.com R: 250 2.1.0 steve@sender.com....Sender OK S: RCPT TO: paul@example.com R: 250 2.1.5 paul@example.com S: DATA R: 354 Start mail input; end with . S: From: steve@sender.com S: To: sandra@example.com S: Subject: Test S: S: Hi, this is a test! S: . R: 250 2.6.0 Queued mail for delivery S: QUIT R: 221 2.0.0 mail.example.com Service closing transmission channel The sender is generating commands and the recipient is generating replies. Replies all start with a status code and then some text. At minimum 4 commands are needed to send an email. All commands and replies to send a single email message together form "the dialog". The mail message body is the data sent after the "DATA" command. (It is not really the DATA command's value as I notice right now because we have one reply for the DATA command and another reply to ack the body data). If a callout service wants to adapt the email message body, it is mainly interested in the this part of the dialog: From: steve@sender.com To: sandra@example.com Subject: Test Hi, this is a test! Still it may also want to see values of previous commands of the same dialog (that is what I meant with "earlier commands"). Look at the value of the RCPT command! It is "paul@example.com" which is different from the "sandra@example.com" that the email client displays in the visible "To" field. That might be an important fact for some filters such as Spam Filters. > > Some of the content adaptation use cases seem at odds with the earlier > part of the document that say that these are part of the "mail > delivery agent" which is NOT part of the MTA. So I'd have expected > those use cases to be out-of-scope. What am I misunderstanding? The term "side effects on the mail delivery" is not perfect, I agree. What I mean here is a number of side effects that a callout service may want to trigger that influences the next steps within the email server or gateway. Not all of that is a pure MTA role but typical things that an email intermediate can do, for example: 1. Delay the email, don't forward immediatly 2. Send an additional notification 3. Exchange the recipients 4. Don't forward but store email in quarantaine 5. Use another next hop MTA (routing) None of this can be done by only modifying the email message body. #3 can be acchieved by exchanging the RCPT command value (but that has been handled already before; how to get back?) #2 can be acchieved by generating another OCP response But I think that we will need some negotiations between OPES processor and callout server about which side effects are allowed/supported and a way to trigger them thru special parameters in the OCP response. > > I can see "response modification" use cases that attempt to > deal with "recipient unknown", for example. It would be a way > of implementing a "universal identity" on a incremental basis. > If delivery fails, you consult the universal identity for > an alternative delivery method. Yes, the MDA or the MUA could > do it, but it's a nice "in-the-network" kind of service. Is this really "response modification"? The sender generates the command RCPT TO: paul@example.com The receiver would generate a response 550 No such user here But before replying this, it sends a response modification OCP message to the callout server? The callout server cannot change the response: the user will still be unknown. It needs to change the command's value and resolve the alias "paul@example.com" into "paul.miller@example.com" > > Yes, I think that operating on the DATA portion fits into the > architecture without the need for special consideration. > As noticed above, it is not a real command value, so we need to mention it explicitly. But still the message content it is "like a command" and we should be able to treat it the same way. Regards Martin From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 20 21:25:45 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07833 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CrokO-0003zV-N5 for opes-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:42:07 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0L28lt1078264; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0L28lBi078263; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0L28cDZ078141 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from lns-p19-8-idf-82-249-22-116.adsl.proxad.net ([82.249.22.116] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CroDu-00040L-PF; Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:08:31 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050120170837.02cf4eb0@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:37:56 +0100 To: "Martin Stecher" , "OPES WG (E-mail)" From: jfcm Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] In-Reply-To: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D60B36A@mail.webwasher.com> References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D60B36A@mail.webwasher.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6E224035 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 At 11:02 20/01/2005, Martin Stecher wrote: >Hi, >seems that we first need a common understanding of the wording and >deployment scenario. Agreement. I apologize for not having been clear enough. I think I have used the concepts accurately but I did not say it, so you have understood it differently because you do not consider the same granularity. But I think we need it. I will try to explain. >The filtering functionality is on the callout server. Not in my scheme. The reason why is that we all know that an MTA is built in module and that a filtering/returning process may not be the same depending where it happens and where it returns. >No difference between HTTP and SMTP here. The callout server may >even support adaptation of both messages for both protocols. >That is our application agnostic approach. The callout server >is an OCP server with some filtering services. This is where I disagree in part: it may be several servers depending where in the MTA architecture it is related to and to which servers it is related to (through OCP or not). Let assume that there is a decision to clean the outbound list for U2 when U1 has received the mail. This action cannot be taken before the outlist module because no other module will ever know it (a mail may stay a few minutes in the different modules and days in the outlist - or whatever the name for that type of MTA) >The OPES processor is a standard device that sits in the data stream >of the protocol we want to handle. That device gets enhanced by an >OCP client that allows to vector out that data to the callout server. >In HTTP the OPES processor is a proxy server; for SMTP we picked >a MTA as the primary device that sits in the SMTP data stream. This assumes that the OPES processor is an unique device/service. It can be in a network of OPES processor and take decisions on a mail depending on information negotiated on that network. >Much too complicated in my view I fully understand it. But what you propose here is a daisy chain http scheme. This is an exact but a-minima scheme. I do not see it scaling: - one to one mail becoming one to many - one single standard OCP action becoming different modules involvements - no connection between OPES processors scaling to cross feedback among all the processors - there is a single mail path when there are several mutually dependent (through OPESed modifications) >Let me try to bring in the other M*A things here and map that to >the normal programs that we see today when sending email: No problem with that. But we have to document this RFC is for "normal" program and to define normality. >Do we agree on what I wrote here? With that limitation which transforms a mail in an asynchronous http, certainly. I think this may help to reduce the complexity of the real life applications (I opposed as too complex, if you remember). If this is something everyone agrees I am OK. All the more than I suspect that the code modularity will permit to do what I say - the complexity being on the OPES processors). My question on text changes remains. jfc From krystastanalandnjay@cymail.net Fri Jan 21 10:30:11 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19885; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cs0zd-0006rI-Or; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:46:39 -0500 Received: from [218.79.84.208] (helo=cymail.net) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Cs0jg-0004Dq-Nx; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:30:09 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:49:14 -1000 Reply-To: "kylee hunter" From: "kylee hunter" User-Agent: fostering Program V Mail Client 5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carylon Morgan" Subject: Be a high income Entrepreneur Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Court Awards Processor. Work from your house anywhere in the world. One's own successful business. Complete control of the hours and times. Part Time 2,000US to 6,000 per/mo Full time 5,000US to 12,000US per/mo. Professional customer support and assistance. http://bv.tHK.masterschoiceproduct.com/3/ Here for more information or to stop receiving or to see our address. The dents remained, to be sure, but he hoped he had removed the pressure upon the works. There was just one way to discover how well he had succeeded, so he fastened the machine to his wrist and turned the indicator to the word up Slowly he ascended, this time to a height of nearly twenty feet From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 21 15:25:43 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15491 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cs5bf-0007S0-NW for opes-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:42:14 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0LKECmo050658; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0LKEC5W050657; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:14:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ppsw-3.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-3.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.133]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0LKE11O050631 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:35277) by ppsw-3.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.153]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1Cs5AM-0005ov-Bt (Exim 4.44) (return-path ); Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:13:58 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1Cs5AM-0003Rq-LA (Exim 4.43) (return-path ); Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:13:58 +0000 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:13:58 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Martin Stecher cc: OPES Group Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] In-Reply-To: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C84@mail.webwasher.com> Message-ID: References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C84@mail.webwasher.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Martin Stecher wrote: > > I do not see any use case that deals with response modification. Does > anybody see a use case in which first the MTA should check for the > response of its peer and then forward that response to the callout > server for further modification? What can be modified here? Responses > are only short acknowledgements or error codes. So turning an ok into an > error would be possible but the callout server does not really need to > see the ok first, does it? There are some situations in which an SMTP server may wish to call forward to another server in order to validate a user's address. For example, Cambridge University's central email cluster acts as the MX and anti-spam and anti-virus filter for several departmental email servers. The central servers do not have a list of the valid email addresses for the departmental servers. In order to verify the recipient addresses on a message during the SMTP conversation with a client outside the University, the central server performs an abbreviated SMTP conversation with the departmental server to check what response it would give to the RCPT command. Success and failure responses (250 and 550) are passed to the external client, but temporary failures (4xx) are modified to success responses so that we take responsibility for a message if the departmental server is having problems. This call-forward function could perhaps be implemented in the OPES service application; however this implies that the OPES service has to know the destination SMTP server of the call-forward. This might not be a simple matter - MTAs can have quite complicated email address routing rules - so it would be nice if the OPES service didn't have to have a duplicate implementation. On the other hand you do not want to require that message reception and forward delivery are coupled: the point of SMTP is that it's a store-and-forward protocol, not real-time like HTTP. This is why the call-forward SMTP conversation is abbreviated. A result of this is that the OPES HTTP model still doesn't apply to OPES SMTP, even with call-forward support. On balance I think that the model you described is sufficient, despite not directly supporting SMTP call-forward. It is, after all, a relatively esoteric requirement which would probably not benefit from the interop layer that OPES would provide. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ SOUTH FITZROY: NORTHEAST 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 IN SOUTHEAST. MAINLY FAIR. GOOD. From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 21 16:41:29 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24641 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cs6n2-0002Ru-FT for opes-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:58:01 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0LLSsD2058790; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0LLSslf058789; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:28:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.webwasher.com (wwsmtp2.webwasher.com [213.70.80.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0LLSmH9058721 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin.stecher@WEBWASHER.com) Received: from mail.WEBWASHER.COM [192.168.0.251] by mail2.webwasher.com id I6OTDNQS outgoing id O2KM6N1R; 21 Jan 2005 22:28:28 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:28:29 +0100 Message-ID: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> Thread-Topic: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] thread-index: AcT/9b/WZM32cvi+SDCEG/npUOQt3wACWBIw From: "Martin Stecher" To: "Tony Finch" Cc: "OPES Group" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j0LLSoH9058780 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tony, > > > > I do not see any use case that deals with response > modification. Does > > anybody see a use case in which first the MTA should check for the > > response of its peer and then forward that response to the callout > > server for further modification? What can be modified here? > Responses > > are only short acknowledgements or error codes. So turning > an ok into an > > error would be possible but the callout server does not > really need to > > see the ok first, does it? > > There are some situations in which an SMTP server may wish to > call forward > to another server in order to validate a user's address. For example, > Cambridge University's central email cluster acts as the MX > and anti-spam > and anti-virus filter for several departmental email servers. > The central > servers do not have a list of the valid email addresses for the > departmental servers. In order to verify the recipient addresses on a > message during the SMTP conversation with a client outside > the University, > the central server performs an abbreviated SMTP conversation with the > departmental server to check what response it would give to the RCPT > command. Success and failure responses (250 and 550) are passed to the > external client, but temporary failures (4xx) are modified to success > responses so that we take responsibility for a message if the > departmental > server is having problems. > [...] Thank you for this real world use case. Not sure whether you see this as a response modification example, it's not IMO: The university's central email server can send the RCPT command to the callout servers that have access to the departmental user directories and get the reply for this command in response to its OCP request. But it is not necessary to first create a pseudo reply in the central mail server and to have that modified by the callout server. That pseudo response would have no meaning to the callout server. Regards Martin From NopChampion.the@pacers.com Fri Jan 21 18:57:40 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06756; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:57:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200501212357.SAA06756@ietf.org> Received: from [61.8.128.236] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cs8uq-0006LJ-5x; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:14:14 -0500 Received: from mail.rdu.bellsouth.net (61.8.128.236) by 61.8.128.236 (controvertiblev.427) with SMTP id <989301p6l> (Authid: 1762); Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:52:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Liane Natalya" From: "Liane Natalya" To: nemo-archive@ietf.org Cc: dhcwg-web-archive@ietf.org, l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org, policy-request@ietf.org, raven@ietf.org, opes-archive@ietf.org, nat-request@ietf.org, tel@ietf.org, ipv6-request@ietf.org, adslmib@ietf.org, ldap-dir-admin@ietf.org Subject: Re: Registration Notice Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:48:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--0342089_8683972.wxV46" X-Spam-Score: 12.4 (++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 ----0342089_8683972.wxV46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Applicant, Your application was processed and approved. 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Liane Natalya, Account Manager J.Foster Marketing 4990 Icele Avenue New Haven, CT 06503 not interested -> http://7469081.masfre.info/index.php ----0342089_8683972.wxV46-- From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 21 19:53:15 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA11158 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cs9mb-0007u1-OJ for opes-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:09:50 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M0enJG036956; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0M0enWO036955; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:40:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M0ee6B036928 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from lns-p19-1-idf-82-251-95-131.adsl.proxad.net ([82.251.95.131] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1Cs9KP-0002NX-64; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:40:37 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050122011143.02691a80@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:30:21 +0100 To: "Martin Stecher" , "Tony Finch" From: jfcm Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Cc: "OPES Group" In-Reply-To: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3C43475A X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Tony, Martin, please consider my initial proposition (repeated in my yesteray analysis) and how it fits to this? We are in a store and complex forward system (while http was a single forward one). This is true of the whole MTA but also true for most of the modules building the MTA. RFC 1958 says that we should proceed simple step by simple step. What are the objections to consider filtering the stored data, without considering the forwarding data flow? So the SMTP mechanism are fully respected (not touched) and the maximum complexity can be supported (one step at a time) where ever the filtering and return occurs. 1. with HTTP we have a logic for acting on a live traffic. 2. with SMTP we will have a logic for acting on files. 3. data handling is the same. 4. whatever the complexity, we just look at the status of the file, change it or not; the server bears the complexity, but this is out of the OPES design? jfc At 22:28 21/01/2005, Martin Stecher wrote: >Hi Tony, > > > > > > > I do not see any use case that deals with response > > modification. Does > > > anybody see a use case in which first the MTA should check for the > > > response of its peer and then forward that response to the callout > > > server for further modification? What can be modified here? > > Responses > > > are only short acknowledgements or error codes. So turning > > an ok into an > > > error would be possible but the callout server does not > > really need to > > > see the ok first, does it? > > > > There are some situations in which an SMTP server may wish to > > call forward > > to another server in order to validate a user's address. For example, > > Cambridge University's central email cluster acts as the MX > > and anti-spam > > and anti-virus filter for several departmental email servers. > > The central > > servers do not have a list of the valid email addresses for the > > departmental servers. In order to verify the recipient addresses on a > > message during the SMTP conversation with a client outside > > the University, > > the central server performs an abbreviated SMTP conversation with the > > departmental server to check what response it would give to the RCPT > > command. Success and failure responses (250 and 550) are passed to the > > external client, but temporary failures (4xx) are modified to success > > responses so that we take responsibility for a message if the > > departmental > > server is having problems. > > [...] > >Thank you for this real world use case. > >Not sure whether you see this as a response modification example, it's not >IMO: >The university's central email server can send the RCPT >command to the callout servers that have access to the departmental >user directories and get the reply for this command in response to its >OCP request. >But it is not necessary to first create a pseudo reply in the central >mail server and to have that modified by the callout server. That >pseudo response would have no meaning to the callout server. > >Regards >Martin From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 21 23:26:05 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA20412 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsD6c-0003Ur-A5 for opes-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:42:40 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M4Ag2f096793; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:10:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0M4Agg5096792; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ppsw-3.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-3.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.133]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M4AWtn096764 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:43448) by ppsw-3.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.153]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1CsCbK-00041g-BW (Exim 4.44) (return-path ); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:10:18 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1CsCbK-0006xp-Hc (Exim 4.43) (return-path ); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:10:18 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:10:18 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: jfcm cc: OPES Group Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050122011143.02691a80@mail.utel.net> Message-ID: References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050122011143.02691a80@mail.utel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jfcm wrote: > > What are the objections to consider filtering the stored data, without > considering the forwarding data flow? You have to be able to reject incoming messages during the SMTP conversation. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ ROCKALL MALIN: VARIABLE 3 OR 4, BUT CYCLONIC 5 OR 6 AT FIRST IN SOUTH ROCKALL, BECOMING NORTHEAST 4 OR 5 LATER. RAIN OR SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 02:24:03 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA12925 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsFsr-0006nS-Nq for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:40:39 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M7Gs32054398; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0M7Gsrj054397; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:16:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M7Gr3o054387 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from tobermory.localdomain ([66.119.143.202]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0M7Gjm8024704 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:16:46 -0700 Received: from tobermory.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j0M7FHe4007376 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:15:17 -0700 Received: (from ho@localhost) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0M7FGGL007372; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:15:16 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:15:16 -0700 Message-Id: <200501220715.j0M7FGGL007372@tobermory.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: ietf-openproxy@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 HTTP OPES could also act on stored messages, but it is more efficient to handle the data as a stream and separate the storage function into a later stage. Hilarie On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jfcm wrote: > > What are the objections to consider filtering the stored data, without > considering the forwarding data flow? From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 02:24:03 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA12923 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsFss-0006nV-Sx for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:40:39 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M7DlAv053133; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0M7DlRK053132; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:13:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0M7Dgs9053063 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:13:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from tobermory.localdomain ([66.119.143.202]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0M7DTm8024418; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:13:30 -0700 Received: from tobermory.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j0M7Bxe4007226; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:11:59 -0700 Received: (from ho@localhost) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0M7Bsqc007169; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:11:54 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:11:54 -0700 Message-Id: <200501220711.j0M7Bsqc007169@tobermory.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: martin.stecher@webwasher.com Cc: ietf-openproxy@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 I think you are rejecting a reasonable response modification scenario by saying "implement your service another way." I don't see any reason to exclude having the response modification done "in the flow". Hilarie On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 at 22:28:29 +0100 Martin Stecher said: > Hi Tony, > > > > > > I do not see any use case that deals with response > > modification. Does > > > anybody see a use case in which first the MTA should check for the > > > response of its peer and then forward that response to the callout > > > server for further modification? What can be modified here? > > Responses > > > are only short acknowledgements or error codes. So turning > > an ok into an > > > error would be possible but the callout server does not > > really need to > > > see the ok first, does it? > > > > There are some situations in which an SMTP server may wish to > > call forward > > to another server in order to validate a user's address. For example, > > Cambridge University's central email cluster acts as the MX > > and anti-spam > > and anti-virus filter for several departmental email servers. > > The central > > servers do not have a list of the valid email addresses for the > > departmental servers. In order to verify the recipient addresses on a > > message during the SMTP conversation with a client outside > > the University, > > the central server performs an abbreviated SMTP conversation with the > > departmental server to check what response it would give to the RCPT > > command. Success and failure responses (250 and 550) are passed to the > > external client, but temporary failures (4xx) are modified to success > > responses so that we take responsibility for a message if the > > departmental > > server is having problems. > > [...] > Thank you for this real world use case. > Not sure whether you see this as a response modification example, it's not IMO: > The university's central email server can send the RCPT > command to the callout servers that have access to the departmental > user directories and get the reply for this command in response to its > OCP request. > But it is not necessary to first create a pseudo reply in the central > mail server and to have that modified by the callout server. That > pseudo response would have no meaning to the callout server. > Regards > Martin From RGGUQINQXU@msn.com Sat Jan 22 04:47:53 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21752; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 243.206.119-80.rev.gaoland.net ([80.119.206.243]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsI87-0001Hk-4E; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:04:32 -0500 Received: from .anu..au ([100.218.188.77] helo=anu..au) by smtp5..co with esmtp id 1A5Ys6-277177-44 Message-ID: Sender: freeradius-devel-RGGUQINQXU@msn.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 06:47:16 -0300 From: "Sharlene Tyler" To: nsis@ietf.org Cc: nsis-admin@ietf.org, nsis-request@ietf.org, olicy@ietf.org, onmib-admin@ietf.org, opes-archive@ietf.org, ops-area@ietf.org, ops-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Woww..8o-% 0ff Nsis X-Spam-Score: 6.8 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Offers of the month... 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N0-re m0val are re'qui-red mZpO0bbPYnuSiNI8OrFboJDmLC7TOEW5 From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 11:06:42 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12289 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsO2l-0000Wx-UL for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:23:24 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MFqsVE012402; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 07:52:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0MFqs4F012401; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 07:52:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MFqj79012386 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 07:52:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from lns-p19-19-idf-82-65-128-153.adsl.proxad.net ([82.65.128.153] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CsNZ3-000518-Oi; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 07:52:42 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050122124249.03235110@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:52:31 +0100 To: Tony Finch From: jfcm Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Cc: OPES Group In-Reply-To: References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050122011143.02691a80@mail.utel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-FBE44B4 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 At 05:10 22/01/2005, Tony Finch wrote: >On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jfcm wrote: > > > > What are the objections to consider filtering the stored data, without > > considering the forwarding data flow? > >You have to be able to reject incoming messages during the SMTP >conversation. You are right. So I should rephrase this. I think this is very near from what Martin everyone says, but one function more. Martin says "The filtering functionality is on the callout server. No difference between HTTP and SMTP here. The callout server may even support adaptation of both messages for both protocols. That is our application agnostic approach. The callout server is an OCP server with some filtering services." Hilarie says "HTTP OPES could also act on stored messages, but it is more efficient to handle the data as a stream and separate the storage function into a later stage." I would rephrase this: OPES processor/network should use two kinds of callout servers built as an OCP server. (1) filtering the data stream as in HTTP, SMTP and probably many other protocols (2) scanning stored files as in the store phases of an MTA and probably many applications. I think everyone can easily think of uses of each. May be we can make a list to include in thre draft. If you consider the differences of the two models the data stream filtering will have the typical use we quoted, while the file scanning will give ideas of new usages. jfc From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 11:14:18 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12664 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsOA7-0000fM-83 for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:30:59 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MG3iL8012896; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 08:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0MG3iLE012895; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 08:03:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.webwasher.com (wwsmtp2.webwasher.com [213.70.80.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MG3g9o012887 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 08:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin.stecher@WEBWASHER.com) Received: from mail.WEBWASHER.COM [192.168.0.251] by mail2.webwasher.com id 0NEBX42F outgoing id X2JLR5DZ; 22 Jan 2005 17:03:25 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:03:25 +0100 Message-ID: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C9A@mail.webwasher.com> Thread-Topic: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] thread-index: AcUAUejAzalNDe3uTBiikRkvIELzDQASTokg From: "Martin Stecher" To: "OPES WG (E-Mail)" Cc: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j0MG3h9o012890 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by above.proper.com id j0MG3iL8012896 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hilary, I do not want to reject a reasonable respmod scenario, I just do not understand why this IS a response modification example. Tony describes how it is being solved today by using abbreviated SMTP comunication. This can be translated into request satisfaction in OPES as I described. And certainly every request satisfaction could also be implemented as a response modification by ignoring the original response. But if in all use cases we found so far, the original response is ignored, why do we need a RESPMOD then at all? Regards Martin > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman [mailto:ho@alum.mit.edu] > Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2005 08:12 > An: Martin Stecher > Cc: ietf-openproxy@imc.org > Betreff: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] >=20 >=20 > I think you are rejecting a reasonable response modification scenario > by saying "implement your service another way." I don't see any > reason to exclude having the response modification done "in the flow". >=20 > Hilarie >=20 > On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 at 22:28:29 +0100 Martin Stecher said: > > Hi Tony, >=20 > > > > > > > > I do not see any use case that deals with response=20 > > > modification. Does > > > > anybody see a use case in which first the MTA should=20 > check for the > > > > response of its peer and then forward that response to=20 > the callout > > > > server for further modification? What can be modified here?=20 > > > Responses > > > > are only short acknowledgements or error codes. So turning=20 > > > an ok into an > > > > error would be possible but the callout server does not=20 > > > really need to > > > > see the ok first, does it? > > >=20 > > > There are some situations in which an SMTP server may wish to=20 > > > call forward > > > to another server in order to validate a user's address.=20 > For example, > > > Cambridge University's central email cluster acts as the MX=20 > > > and anti-spam > > > and anti-virus filter for several departmental email servers.=20 > > > The central > > > servers do not have a list of the valid email addresses for the > > > departmental servers. In order to verify the recipient=20 > addresses on a > > > message during the SMTP conversation with a client outside=20 > > > the University, > > > the central server performs an abbreviated SMTP=20 > conversation with the > > > departmental server to check what response it would give=20 > to the RCPT > > > command. Success and failure responses (250 and 550) are=20 > passed to the > > > external client, but temporary failures (4xx) are=20 > modified to success > > > responses so that we take responsibility for a message if the=20 > > > departmental > > > server is having problems. > > > [...] >=20 > > Thank you for this real world use case. >=20 > > Not sure whether you see this as a response modification=20 > example, it's not IMO: > > The university's central email server can send the RCPT > > command to the callout servers that have access to the departmental > > user directories and get the reply for this command in=20 > response to its > > OCP request. > > But it is not necessary to first create a pseudo reply in=20 > the central > > mail server and to have that modified by the callout server. That > > pseudo response would have no meaning to the callout server. >=20 > > Regards > > Martin >=20 From bashar@auctioninsights.com Sat Jan 22 12:27:37 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17046; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsPJ4-0002JX-Oi; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:44:20 -0500 Received: from [218.80.20.129] (helo=auctioninsights.com) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CsP2t-000458-5z; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:27:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01ad01c50097$65a96870$c31a4486@bashar> Reply-To: "delmer gilbert" From: "delmer gilbert" To: "Nina Davis" Subject: Stronger, More Powerful Climaxes Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:31:09 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_7FF_F60F_C307F365.F112B8B1" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_7FF_F60F_C307F365.F112B8B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_7FF_F60F_C307F365.F112B8B1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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This can be translated into request satisfaction > in OPES as I described. I brought it up because I think it's worth thinking about, if only to conclude that the proposed model is the right one. The reason I thought it could perhaps be considered as a response modification scenario is that the destination server's 4xx response is converted by the MX server into a 2xx response. In addition to that it's rather ugly to have the OPES callout server implement the SMTP call-forward, because you have to duplicate knowledge of email address routing in the MTA and the OPES callout server. Yes, you can fix this problem by using better ways of distributing knowledge about shared addresses, but this requires co-operation between the people that run the two MTAs and this may not be practically feasible. (In the case of Cambridge the University is run on a rather federal basis, so the Computing Service can't impose technical requirements on departments. Another situation in which this technique is useful is when a site has secondary MXs run by a different organization.) However as you say it doesn't really fit into the OPES model because the call-forward is not a full SMTP conversation (it's a hack), so it's probably too much of a strain to support something that's fairly esoteric. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ EAST CENTRAL SECTION: IN NORTH, WESTERLY 5 OR 6 AT FIRST IN EAST OTHERWISE EASTERLY OR NORTHEASTERLY 5 OR 6, VEERING SOUTHEASTERLY 5 TO 7. RAIN AT FIRST. MODERATE BECOMING GOOD. IN SOUTH, SOUTHWESTERLY 4 OR 5 BACKING EASTERLY OR SOUTHEASTERLY 5 TO 7. OCCASIONAL RAIN. MODERATE OR GOOD. From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 13:57:57 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24501 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsQiU-0004Un-ML for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:14:40 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MIoCoL055240; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:50:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0MIoCfd055238; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:50:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MIoBZO055218 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from tobermory.localdomain ([66.119.143.202]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0MIo2m8029760 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:50:03 -0700 Received: from tobermory.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j0MIk9e4023419 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:46:09 -0700 Received: (from ho@localhost) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0MIk98J023415; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:46:09 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:46:09 -0700 Message-Id: <200501221846.j0MIk98J023415@tobermory.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: ietf-openproxy@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage Subject: Response modification X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 OPES is supposed to enable new services. The call-forward wouldn't have been a hack if it had been done as part of an OPES service, using the same architectural model that we used for HTTP. Further, we rule out a large number of useful identity-based services by eliminating the ability to do response modification. Hilarie On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 at 18:40:27 +0000 Tony Finch announced: > it doesn't really fit into the OPES model because the > call-forward is not a full SMTP conversation (it's a hack), so it's > probably too much of a strain to support something that's fairly esoteric. From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 14:07:54 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25050 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsQs7-0004iS-WE for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:24:37 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MIxft1070921; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0MIxflx070920; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:59:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MIxeLq070814 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:33400) by ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.150]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1CsQTw-0008ON-1i (Exim 4.44) (return-path ); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:59:36 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1CsQTw-0002EU-GG (Exim 4.43) (return-path ); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:59:36 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:59:36 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Martin Stecher cc: OPES Group Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] In-Reply-To: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C84@mail.webwasher.com> Message-ID: References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C84@mail.webwasher.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Martin Stecher wrote: > > 1. MTA receives email, i.e. it receives SMTP commands and vectors them > out to the callout server > a) callout server modified the command value: MTA will treat the > modified value as if it received it that way from its SMTP peer > b) callout server returns an SMTP error-reply: MTA will send that > error code to its SMTP peer > > 2. MTA sends email, i.e. generates SMTP commands and vectors them out > to the callout server > a) callout server modified the command value: MTA will send > modified command to its SMTP peer > b) callout server returns an SMTP error-reply: MTA does NOT send > the command to its SMTP peer but treats the error as if it > received it from the SMTP peer Following on from what jfcm said, I can't see any use cases in the existing draft which fall into the second pair of these categories, and I'm not sure that anything out in the real world falls into them either. Current email filtering systems either operate at SMTP time (e.g. the Sendmail milter system, or Exim's access control lists) or they operate on messages after reception (e.g. MailScanner) either on the MTA's queue or by being handed from the MTA to the filter and back again. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ CULLERCOATS: GALE OR SEVERE GALE FORCE NORTHERLY WINDS SLOWLY DECREASING. From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 15:10:38 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28793 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsRqk-0005sk-Lc for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:27:21 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MJuW1I060221; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0MJuWsa060220; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from winserver.com (news.winserver.com [208.247.131.9]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j0MJuVAQ060096 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hsantos@santronics.com) Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v6.0.451.3) for ietf-openproxy@imc.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:55:05 -0500 Received: from ([68.215.51.253]) EHLO=hdev1 by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v6.0.451.3) with SMTP id 3047033937; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:55:04 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c500bc$00613770$6401a8c0@hdev1> From: "Hector Santos" To: "OPES Group" References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C99@mail.webwasher.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050122011143.02691a80@mail.utel.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050122124249.03235110@mail.utel.net> Subject: Re: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:53:06 -0500 Organization: Santronics Software, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfcm" Cc: "OPES Group" Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:52 AM Subject: RE: [draft-ietf-opes-smtp-use-cases-01] > I would rephrase this: OPES processor/network should use two kinds of > callout servers built as an OCP server. (1) filtering the data stream as in > HTTP, SMTP and probably many other protocols (2) scanning stored files as > in the store phases of an MTA and probably many applications. > > I think everyone can easily think of uses of each. May be we can make a > list to include in thre draft. If you consider the differences of the two > models the data stream filtering will have the typical use we quoted, while > the file scanning will give ideas of new usages. > If I have been following this discussion correctly, don't you really have three possibilities? 1) Dynamic Request at the RCPT state point 2) Dynamic Request at the DATA state point 3) Post Request of Accepted mail at the POST SMTP file storage point. I don't wish to rehash the obvious: #1 relies on transport information only, #2 and #3 relies on transport information and possible 2822 information. #2, #3 requires a standard passing of transport information as each system may do this differently. but more importantly, what concerns me the most from a commercial vendor standpoint: #2 and #3 has high potential payload bandwidth issues in a high anti-spam environment. #3 has a borderline, yet real legal conflict with US EPCA delivery expectations of accepted data. In practice, the mail filtering is considered a administrative action, but a technical automated concept. We have a near 20 year tradition where immediate rejection is more plausible, acceptable, not subject to litigation versus fuzzy, even mal-practice, unreliable post acceptable rejection systems where no notification is provided. So consider this. Given a OPES system availability for implementation. We were do our best to implement at #1 or #2 where an immediate rejection can be applied by default setup. #3 would be offered optional by administrator request only. The difference? Reduce product liability issues. We do the same thing today in our current environment with a dynamic hooking system into the SMTP state machine. Once the message is accepted by SMTP, the responsibility moves to the operator on how it is he/she wishes to handle/process the stored message. I guess what this means from my standpoint is that an OPES 'like-device" is applied POST SMTP, then how is this reflected back into the SMTP process? I can only see it as a bounce. Any errant drop of mail will be attributed to the system operator (sysop) post filtering policy. In any case, I believe alot of this will be based on the OPES device and its required input process parameters. If a OPES service exist for #1, then only transport information is required: result = OPES_RCPT(IP,HELO/ECHO,MAILFROM, RCPTTO) if a OPES service exist for #2, then the functional model follows: result = OPES_DATA(IP,HELO/ECHO,MAILFROM, RCPTTO, PAYLOAD) #2 also works for #3, with the key difference of what is more desirable instant or delayed rejection notification. --- Hector Santos, CTO WINSERVER "Wildcat! Interactive Net Server" http://www.santronics.com support: http://www.winserver.com From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 15:23:16 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00144 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsS35-00068V-Uo for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:40:00 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MK9Tj1080472; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0MK9T57080471; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:09:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.webwasher.com (wwsmtp2.webwasher.com [213.70.80.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0MK9R4X080325 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin.stecher@WEBWASHER.com) Received: from mail.WEBWASHER.COM [192.168.0.251] by mail2.webwasher.com id G9S9BUL4 outgoing id G9S9BUL4; 22 Jan 2005 21:09:21 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Response modification Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:09:22 +0100 Message-ID: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C9B@mail.webwasher.com> Thread-Topic: Response modification thread-index: AcUAtVcSwZ6RtfaUQFaHFhWJa5Y1zgAB6eXQ From: "Martin Stecher" To: "OPES WG (E-Mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j0MK9S4X080464 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > > OPES is supposed to enable new services. Absolutely. > > The call-forward wouldn't have been a hack if it had been done as > part of an OPES service, using the same architectural model that > we used for HTTP. I fully agree. > Further, we rule out a large number of useful > identity-based services by eliminating the ability to do > response modification. Here I disagree. Tonny describes again a use case that we've listed already last year. See sample 2-2 on http://www.martin-stecher.de/opes/smtpusecases.html No doubt that it is a very important one. This and other examples of group 2 are the "useful identity-based services" you are referring to, aren't they? And these are all request satisfaction examples, not response modification. Again: Response modification is only useful if the callout service makes use of the original response data, which in SMTP is the SMTP reply. The only service I can think of, that does this, is a logging service. Is that one strong enough to have response modification in the SMTP deployment? Or can you please describe another important service that makes use of the response and modifies it? 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character elijah customary feverish bela bus. palliate battlefield contractor eradicate stegosaurus abode hypophyseal. ----117744655133329857-- From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sat Jan 22 22:42:45 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA00944 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CsYuO-0005A4-UP for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:59:33 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0N3QjAV002127; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:26:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0N3Qfdq002021; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:26:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0N3Pmv6001304 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:26:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from lns-p19-19-idf-82-65-128-153.adsl.proxad.net ([82.65.128.153] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CsY33-0005D4-07; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:04:21 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050123002617.03a9aa20@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:58:18 +0100 To: "Martin Stecher" , "OPES WG (E-Mail)" From: jfcm Subject: RE: Response modification In-Reply-To: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C9B@mail.webwasher.com> References: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C9B@mail.webwasher.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-FBE44B4 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d I am sorry, I really have a problem following all this discussion and I feel I have no idea of what is really discussed. My understanding was that: - we make a list of cases. http://www.martin-stecher.de/opes/smtpusecases.html and keep adding to it each case we would indentify as not covered - we would discuss the best OPES architecture able to address them - in testing the propositions against each of these cases. I expected that in this process we would discover new services we could enable this way, and at the same time to simplify the architecture to be used. Today I feel (but I may be wrong) that we are sorting and filtering case concepts (not real cases) along sorting and filtering concept corresponding to a solution approach. I do not object that this may not be right and brillant, but I am lost and cannot commit. Now, I must confess that I am not interested in SMTP as such. I am interested in real store and forward cases serviced by OPES over real life MTAs, SMTP being part of their support, may be this is why I am lost? Also, I am definitly interested in operational, legal local constraints, as something a solution must support (and may be should we list them all, as Hector is probably not the only one having some needs in that area ? I listed at least one myself [to make sure mail would never cross machines of a given domain/country]. But this should not be used to limitate the architectural specifications. If I am out of context, I apologize. jfc At 21:09 22/01/2005, Martin Stecher wrote: > > > > > > OPES is supposed to enable new services. > >Absolutely. > > > > > The call-forward wouldn't have been a hack if it had been done as > > part of an OPES service, using the same architectural model that > > we used for HTTP. > >I fully agree. > > > Further, we rule out a large number of useful > > identity-based services by eliminating the ability to do > > response modification. > >Here I disagree. > >Tonny describes again a use case that we've listed already last year. >See sample 2-2 on http://www.martin-stecher.de/opes/smtpusecases.html >No doubt that it is a very important one. >This and other examples of group 2 are the "useful identity-based services" >you are referring to, aren't they? >And these are all request satisfaction examples, not response modification. > >Again: Response modification is only useful if the callout service makes >use of the original response data, which in SMTP is the SMTP reply. > >The only service I can think of, that does this, is a logging service. >Is that one strong enough to have response modification in the SMTP >deployment? >Or can you please describe another important service that makes use of >the response and modifies it? > >Regards >Martin From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 23 02:20:12 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA25045 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CscIt-0000S1-Mr for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:37:01 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0N75uBs099681; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:05:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0N75uWp099672; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:05:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0N75tei099314 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:05:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from tobermory.localdomain ([66.119.143.202]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j0N75bm8012360 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:05:37 -0700 Received: from tobermory.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j0N71je4007770 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:01:45 -0700 Received: (from ho@localhost) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0N71hHg007766; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:01:43 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:01:43 -0700 Message-Id: <200501230701.j0N71hHg007766@tobermory.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: ietf-openproxy@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C9B@mail.webwasher.com> Subject: RE: Response modification X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 at 21:09:22 +0100 Martin Stecher contended: > > Further, we rule out a large number of useful > > identity-based services by eliminating the ability to do > > response modification. > Here I disagree. > Tonny describes again a use case that we've listed already last year. > See sample 2-2 on http://www.martin-stecher.de/opes/smtpusecases.html > No doubt that it is a very important one. > This and other examples of group 2 are the "useful identity-based services" > you are referring to, aren't they? > And these are all request satisfaction examples, not response modification. > Again: Response modification is only useful if the callout service makes > use of the original response data, which in SMTP is the SMTP reply. > The only service I can think of, that does this, is a logging service. > Is that one strong enough to have response modification in the SMTP deployment? > Or can you please describe another important service that makes use of > the response and modifies it? When the response comes back indicating that there's a problem with the recipient name, the OPES processor sends that to the callout server, and at that time, the callout server can pick an alternative method for finding the recipient. This seems obvious to me ... I'm not sure why it seems obscure to others. I wrote a white paper for Novell several years ago about "global identities" that used this method for resolving delivery addresses. Hilarie From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Sun Jan 23 05:54:04 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA05428 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 05:54:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Csfdr-0008LG-Ui for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 06:10:56 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0NAhmT8001895; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:43:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j0NAhmWb001881; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:43:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.webwasher.com (wwsmtp2.webwasher.com [213.70.80.11]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j0NAhk8w001534 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:43:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin.stecher@WEBWASHER.com) Received: from mail.WEBWASHER.COM [192.168.0.251] by mail2.webwasher.com id R12TJGRH outgoing id K2H8BVWL; 23 Jan 2005 11:43:30 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: RE: Response modification Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:43:30 +0100 Message-ID: <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597C9C@mail.webwasher.com> Thread-Topic: Response modification thread-index: AcUBHxyOvabkTJhvQmiBx3s+ObAGtgAF/AO/ From: "Martin Stecher" To: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by above.proper.com id j0NAhl8w001848 Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by above.proper.com id j0NAhmT8001895 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hilarie, =20 I think I finally got the idea: In this scenario we are really thinking about a proxy like functionality = of the MTA. A sender MTA does a dialog with the proxy and the proxy is doing a dialog= with another MTA at the same time. Forwarding the RCPT command to the ne= xt MTA and sending back the response. And here response modification comes into play. =20 Correct so far? =20 If the next MTA is returning an error, it could of course be "modified", = if the proxy selects another address and tries that one again in a RCPT c= ommand to the next proxy. On success it sends back the positive response.= Is this the way the "alternative mapping" method would work? The callout server is determining the other address, maybe even other nex= t MTA. So it tells the proxy MTA to send another command to the same or a= different next MTA? =20 Also correct? =20 Thank you for helping me to understand. =20 Regards Martin =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----=20 Von: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org im Auftrag von The Purple Streak,= Hilarie Orman=20 Gesendet: So 23.01.2005 02:01=20 An: ietf-openproxy@imc.org=20 Cc:=20 Betreff: RE: Response modification =09 =09 On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 at 21:09:22 +0100 Martin Stecher contended: =09 > > Further, we rule out a large number of useful > > identity-based services by eliminating the ability to do > > response modification.=20 =09 > Here I disagree. =09 > Tonny describes again a use case that we've listed already last year. > See sample 2-2 on http://www.martin-stecher.de/opes/smtpusecases.html > No doubt that it is a very important one. > This and other examples of group 2 are the "useful identity-based ser= vices" > you are referring to, aren't they? > And these are all request satisfaction examples, not response modific= ation. =09 > Again: Response modification is only useful if the callout service ma= kes > use of the original response data, which in SMTP is the SMTP reply. =09 > The only service I can think of, that does this, is a logging service. > Is that one strong enough to have response modification in the SMTP d= eployment? > Or can you please describe another important service that makes use o= f > the response and modifies it? =09 When the response comes back indicating that there's a problem with the recipient name, the OPES processor sends that to the callout server, and at that time, the callout server can pick an alternative method for finding the recipient. This seems obvious to me ... I'm not sure why it seems obscure to others. I wrote a white paper for Novell several years ago about "global identities" that used this method for resolving delivery addresses. =09 Hilarie =09 =09 From DuncKantner@computerweekly.com Sun Jan 23 14:35:59 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03142 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:35:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200501231935.OAA03142@ietf.org> Received: from tamqfl1-ar4-4-47-200-246.tamqfl1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.47.200.246]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Csnn2-0000gM-Ow for opes-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:52:55 -0500 To: opes-archive@ietf.org Subject: I owe you one Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:39:30 +0100 From: "Saleathia Margolin" Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for ev= ery thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative= ; and until such enumeration shall be made, the state of New Hampshire sha= ll be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Provi= dence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pe= nnsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina= five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.=20

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But it became quiet last days and we have no consensus yet I think. I try to summarize and argue again why some combinations are either unneeded or not in the agenda's focus. Maybe this helps a little further. From what we collected in the discussion so far I could see four theoretical activation points: 1. Receiving email Do a SMTP dialog with the peer, receiving email from it, usually storing the emails in a queue and maybe sending on later 2. Stored email in queue Operate on an email that has been received earlier. Their is no current SMTP dialog going on 3. Sending email Do a SMTP dialog with a peer, sending email to it. 4. Proxy (receive and forward) Having two SMTP dialogs at the same time. Mostly forwarding commands and replies; often no own email queue In addition to that there are four modes A. SMTP command modification The command is modified by the callout server B. SMTP command satisfaction Callout server responds with a SMTP reply (usually an error message). C. SMTP reply modification The SMTP reply is modified by the callout server D. Email message body modification Do we need all these and all combinations? I don't think so: Re 2: Working on stored emails has more to do with a MIME profile for OCP than with a SMTP profile. It only operates on the message body anyway as there is no SMTP dialog going on. Certainly you could use an OCP client and pretend a SMTP dialog in order to get a callout server to work on a stored email. But the more natural profile is OCP/MIME and not OCP/SMTP. Re C: SMTP reply modification seems to make sense for - reply logging (so no real modification) - At activation point 4, when commands and replies are proxied Re D: When part of OCP/SMTP (not OCP/MIME or alike) this can be seen as command modification, i.e. it falls back to mode A. Re 3: Tony and jfcm don't see a use case for this. But most use cases listed so far do either work at activation points 1 or 3. There might even be specific callout services that make much more sense when sending the email (for example: add a footer to the email that contains a current time stamp, whether condidition, stock price, ...) Or there might be a corporate email gateway that uses SMTP outbound and wants to do filtering there but emails are not delivered to that device via SMTP but some other mail protocol, so that there is no activation point 1 in the authorotive domain. In my opinion, activation points 1 and 3 are very similar, make both sense and don't cost more to be handled both. Point 4 is special and opens a chance for mode C. (4A and 4B are the same as 1A and 1B). But the whole scenario becomes more complex. Most use cases can be done without this. Hilarie sees them as very important. So my candidates are: Mandantory: 1A 1B 3A 3B Optional: 4C All other combinations are unneeded or out of focus. 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I want to have a little talk with him From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 31 19:37:31 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29409 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CvmKy-0000Ae-6n for opes-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:56:14 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j110PDLj036467; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j110PDsx036466; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:25:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from montage.altserver.com (montage.altserver.com [63.247.74.122]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j110P8OE036443 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:25:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from info@utel.net) Received: from lns-p19-19-idf-82-254-251-242.adsl.proxad.net ([82.254.251.242] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1Cvlqi-0002AI-Dk for ietf-openproxy@imc.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:24:57 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050201003336.0556c0b0@mail.utel.net> X-Sender: info+utel.net@mail.utel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 00:34:21 +0100 To: ietf-openproxy@imc.org From: jfcm Subject: RE: Activation points and callout modes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-9777429 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - imc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - utel.net Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 87a3f533bb300b99e2a18357f3c1563d Dear Martin, in order to be able to better respond you I need to know a few things. Please do not read this as agressive, I just want to know the vision of this group. Since I see that I am the only one asking questions, I apologize if this delays the whole group or if this keeps this mailing list unecessarily buzy. - who are the "we" when you say "we won't do that as a humman command interface" ? - what is the purpose of this OPES work? Is it just to carry some research or to design operational network building blocks? - the language being used "OCP server/client" and an "MTA becoming an OPES processor" and a "callout server" does not make ANY sense to me. This is a middlebox language where the middlebox protocols are affected/enhanced by an external feature. This is not a server based Service language. IMHO this confusion does not help. At 13:27 31/01/2005, Martin Stecher wrote: >Hi jfc, >seems that the confusion is ongoing ;-) >I also have problems to get your picture of OPES :-( Frankly, my feeling is that from the very first begining, we were not able to work on blackboard together and to sort out what we are talking about, what is its use, who is interested in using, financing it, running a business with it. Hence the confusion. >The reason why I quoted you in my posting was because Tony has >wrote in his message from Jan 22: "Following on from what jfcm said, I >can't see any use cases ..." > > > > > 1. I set-up Machines to offer OPES. I set them up as a network, using > > hopefully a single protocol to dialog together. > >I have already problems with this. "... to offer OPES" - what shall this mean? >In order to offer open pluggable edge device services you set up a network >of machines that communicate which each other. This is what I read. Yes. As you know a "Service" is something that people want to use for themselves or on their machines and they will pay with a credit card. (BTW I do not understand the difference you make between OPES and OPEDS?). >My OPES world is: There is a callout server the same way we know it already >today as an OCP server for HTTP or as an ICAP server; What is that "callout server = OCP server" going to serve for in your idea ? Is it just a single black box with no back-up or does it belong to a domain of servicing processes on several machines ? >this now needs to be connected to an existing SMTP structure. Here I am lost. I understand what is a Service servers structure , like an -email service mailboxes server, like a web hosting services Apache server, like a Banking service server, but I do not know what a "small mail transfer protocol structure" is. To my underestanding there are computer ports, where datagrams are sent based upon DNS information, where they are processed by several modules, accomplishing different tasks fitting a protocol desciption. >We want to achieve this by simply adding an OCP client module to an MTA >which by this then becomes the OPES processor. If I read it correctly, you want to add an OCP client (what I read as an communication process able to establish and maintain a cession with another communication process using the OCP protocol). I frankly do not understand how this can modify the MTA if in the MTA architecture there is no one or several filters able to trigger and feed that communication. The important point is to understand where to put them in real world MTA and to what purpose. There are different MTA architectures and at least three functions : receive, store and forward, with a loop store-forward when the forward fails which makes four processes to consider (at least) receive, loop, store, forward, and 8 possible places to modify the data fed into the processes (before and after) and three different types of changes: on the data, on the header, on the information passed to the function. Now different MTA have different additional possibilities due to their own architecture (for example local/external mail, distribution lists, aliases, etc. etc.) Also, I do not understand the semantic of "OPES processor". But I understand the idea of an MTA becoming OPES processed ? > > 2. I install OPES filters/probe, etc. but with a naming that > > a client will > > understand. > > - They will dialog with the above with the same protocol. > > - I will install them as I want and along the clients > > application > > design and the intended service. If I need to have 10 of them > > in an MTA, I > > need to be able to just do that. > >Totally lost with this. >10 filtering services in an MTA? >They are in a callout server and not in the MTA. There is only an OCP client. We are talking of services, not of software modules (nor of protocols). You can imagine all the filtering strategy you want, at whatever place. Or do you understand "service" in OPES as "offeriing OCP protocol support"? > > 3. I figure out there are at least two types of probes > > - to filter a data stream (as in http) with data coming by chunks > > - to filter static data with data coming with a complete file. > >Agreed. The first is what I desribed in points 1,3,4 >The second is 2 in my posting. Then I may have a simple synthetisis problem. Could the be presented the following way (I dont ask you do it, just if it makes sense)? - here are the two modules - here is what they permit - here is what neither of them permit. > > 4. Now I need to establish what in the protocol belong to the > > server and to > > the probe, what belongs to communications and what belong to > > processing > > (server and filtering), so I need to know the language I use > > on the probes > > and the way I drive it from the server. My expectation is > > that when I am on > > the server, I can enter "$> ocp" and I have an "$> ftp" like answer, > > including the "help". > >We won't do this as a human command like interface. >Probably using again OCP with a profile for SMTP. >The connections will be opened by the OPES processor (OCP client) >not the callout server (OCP server). Who said so? I want to control the OPESed boxes of my domain. I hope this helps you to clarify (at least that we do not speak of the same thing) jfc PS. there is an IETF meeting in Paris in August. Do you think you will make it (or anyone else ?): I could get a room for a full day with a blackboard, refreshments and snacks - I know it makes a long time, but I can stop questionning, seeing what comes out of your proposition. We would have a review by then. I would be a user looking at your product [this is just what I am: a user who develops his own tools when he cannot find or advise them]. From owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 31 21:03:56 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07138 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CvngW-000207-EB for opes-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:22:38 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j111tPWX042365; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:55:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j111tPLP042364; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:55:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rfburst.com (mail.esmartstart.com [66.119.143.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j111tG8M042344 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:55:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ho@alum.mit.edu) Received: from tobermory.localdomain ([66.119.143.202]) by mail.rfburst.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j111sr0J004801; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:54:54 -0700 Received: from tobermory.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j111oie4032383; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:50:44 -0700 Received: (from ho@localhost) by tobermory.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j111og8m032379; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:50:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:50:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200502010150.j111og8m032379@tobermory.localdomain> From: "The Purple Streak, Hilarie Orman" To: martin.stecher@webwasher.com Cc: ietf-openproxy@imc.org In-reply-to: Yourmessage <75F7E67FC45F6744A7D328D41E35376D597CC0@mail.webwasher.com> Subject: Re: Activation points and callout modes X-esmartscan-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-esmartscan-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ho@alum.mit.edu Sender: owner-ietf-openproxy@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Go with 1A and 1B as MANDATORY. Those have always made sense. Don't have anything OPTIONAL; if their importance becomes obvious later then they can be added as extensions. I don't see how D (email body modification) "falls back" to A (command modification), but as long as it can be done, I don't care what letter gets assigned to it. I'd not thought that the OPES processor would be maintaining queues, but if implementors think that's the way they want to do it, that's fine. If the queues were maintained by the callout server, then the difference between operating on SMTP vs. stored data would be irrelevant. Hilarie From erzvuvizsjnr@guj.de Mon Jan 31 21:16:10 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07833 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CvnsO-0002AY-GB for opes-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:34:52 -0500 Received: from [203.115.71.204] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CvnaH-00010y-Nh for opes-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:16:06 -0500 X-Message-Info: V697ydjWBVdzp5FFCFC7UDdbb0IJEEtAE4D3uIzYWG85DIP160 Received: (from darpa@localhost) by pumamyocardium8.erzvuvizsjnr@guj.de (1.53.1/7.95.4) id v98FUMyJ9694; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:12:00 +0600 Message-ID: <6186591D0B.6871F@erzvuvizsjnr@guj.de> Reply-To: "Debbie J Dickens" From: "Debbie J Dickens" To: "Opes-archive" Subject: moving? We'll relieve your headache Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:07:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--1512CBFC6F06E3AF5" X-Spam-Score: 22.6 (++++++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d ----1512CBFC6F06E3AF5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-498D-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EB03967313

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