From nobody Fri Oct 1 00:37:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FC03A093D for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:37:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eQgJ5V_wNLRo for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34BF03A0906 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:a4d8:14d4:bb61:6120]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1917avGN2461032 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:36:57 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633073819; bh=yllC3iPx17GqtSzs6h2UkpRAEnf0RDVLStzt41rzhgs=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=NyqBx/iasRa1kJDzJVA2EwXQWqHMO/Qlgppe9NMp8JRjMHRWoacWqURhjwJ6xdGdJ kmblZntX5yhbJcPZI+6ooLadJ65WdfJK4A8x0M52LM6tZCHFjaPoWDwznjjG2vRalv WtWBNYpoBQ6MCiOs3EW0V3w1BF8DZbY05T8RKKI4= To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:36:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KHEBSGnj0M5SLOZm5tHh2LCC31EI2s5z1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:37:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --KHEBSGnj0M5SLOZm5tHh2LCC31EI2s5z1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="urFnU3n2Crk4ArQGouJncRmEBa7zE6QRx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> --urFnU3n2Crk4ArQGouJncRmEBa7zE6QRx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 01.10.21 08:11, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > On 2021-10-01 14:28, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting, = >> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may = >> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy.=C2=A0= I=20 >> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others=20 >> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about=20 >> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern=20 >> now.=C2=A0 This issue will close on the 12th of October. > > I agree with the sentiment, but I think it has already been mentioned=20 > that creating a vacancy might allow a single stream to block progress=20 > effectively infinitely. This is indeed my concern.=C2=A0 This amounts to a pocket veto by one str= eam=20 and subverts our already agreed approval flow.=C2=A0 I personally have a = serious issue with providing so much power to any one stream.=C2=A0 I=20 proposed as an alternative in the meeting that approvals should be=20 paused for no more than 8 weeks in the case of a vacancy.=C2=A0 I would b= e=20 just as happy if that were 12 weeks, but it cannot be an infinite period = of time.=C2=A0 That just creates all the wrong incentives. Eliot --urFnU3n2Crk4ArQGouJncRmEBa7zE6QRx-- --KHEBSGnj0M5SLOZm5tHh2LCC31EI2s5z1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFWupcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOe zQgA1d+00EexMISegUhpc27IvC3eMS8EVHtiuwgHcsGc4pVL67oQpJEWbbfz+/IRGi9ojhLaR6iN Q4NwimFPpab85nnPcKalCjERRL9Ai6HRANUBXydFUBdP8WLC3lAnxrKqyuMWltUqd+q/Xtz7Bap5 8+2NERoe2OjfaLm25b77nBdSO8RBa9SIAMYo1WoZln3nmM0kyupPtJualpAKsSsWYt98ZMqlIDyL UVrTL8CMetfdVIfxMn7RM0paroESDxn8cXwzyYipHWfIq5mlPs8kqxarHUa1A6OaTUJJeoge6iqa LWWBQeYzOzMjYLu2/u+lHb7fddWiRf2UAK6XK86iuw== =nY2t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KHEBSGnj0M5SLOZm5tHh2LCC31EI2s5z1-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 00:44:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79E53A096F for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:44:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ARVEZRWaE8Vb for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72C553A096C for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:5bc:2f83:3bfd:bc33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9417B600354; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:44:19 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1633074259; bh=2+GPg4yB0kbLsYwuFi/7NnImxXJkuIeRRdMQdXq2wTY=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=ePEGplOdclCX8ZO4UNMxORp9AfXQRseYk8RVA4MzlbcPzvVgtzprFCuxPvNHWqDTK BC6ZCmsuxkCBpCtkTFUabi5VBSI2F4tyby4dDUHEaL8GPWmtXsuxboOkH5xk2qu9ZQ K+aMi5MZs4Yjqg6baOlG2MTuPn0aoJbu4I0nZlRE= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5EC1B9EE-63AF-49FC-8E42-869FF1367293"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:44:18 +0300 In-Reply-To: <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "rfced-future@iab.org" To: Eliot Lear References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> X-MailScanner-ID: 9417B600354.A08FA X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:44:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5EC1B9EE-63AF-49FC-8E42-869FF1367293 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-10-1, at 10:36, Eliot Lear wrote: > On 01.10.21 08:11, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> On 2021-10-01 14:28, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>=20 >>> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim = meeting, key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the = RSAB may not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a = vacancy. I believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if = others disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration = about vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that = concern now. This issue will close on the 12th of October. >>=20 >> I agree with the sentiment, but I think it has already been mentioned = that creating a vacancy might allow a single stream to block progress = effectively infinitely. >=20 > This is indeed my concern. This amounts to a pocket veto by one = stream and subverts our already agreed approval flow. I personally have = a serious issue with providing so much power to any one stream. I = proposed as an alternative in the meeting that approvals should be = paused for no more than 8 weeks in the case of a vacancy. I would be = just as happy if that were 12 weeks, but it cannot be an infinite period = of time. That just creates all the wrong incentives. instead of allowing an RSAB with vacancies to resume operation after = some fixed time, I'd rather encode that there is an expectation that = vacancies should be filled within some period of time. Because if they = aren't, that is then an appealable event. The reason I am hesitant to allow an RSAB with vacancies to take actions = is that I was in a position as the IRTF stream owner where the RSOC = (which I was never on) took decisions that forgot about the IRTF stream. = I would like this to be impossible to reoccur in the new structure. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_5EC1B9EE-63AF-49FC-8E42-869FF1367293 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFWvFMACgkQVLXDCb9w wVe5tQ//WA1djVNlD8Sd1RrI0YjG9rWbwKxhn3fTYT6yq6ZDWH+FFlaX0cMZ4dQE JN+RtyuHntcr0mLN/XYVoeVo72wQwC0H5iK9CulVNjgV+SWFBBH1E11VGC2tWM8+ KyjG50/c52WZcfo3N2qdCooSiHjPJ2LYyQDkWtDKeyPdWjWFnXMMk6u03UWhaQv1 fbOtbsY/kFut5TcpWrJaKvGVq8NrtPR9PE1OvCuZCHZNOQOniZK/HnWaQAHnJjm8 gWNyAdV+YBkb9Q4V10q6Cw9ertc2dE1HnVDRPtKhkBWj2ud1CRkhNK03ylVq+PMH lc9M1bG0ePRuy0PZObaEL111TK9QQTntQV/2c/LELkx2DGfIY9irQLTxpk0Fyc93 6J3MI4SPYav/amx+oFoVbzaQEKNMDQ7b5AcTDCHSWz0orzsl2LejZcW4NQaJ+MKu U0qBWXBuf0WUfeX6310LTpf/KU+sHTksUqvLiuskhses7EF2x+yYO4NMDH8zpiYz vMlprqIVPhbzUms3Hwg22IUDACfUBUUCkFsW6QBQUVywlPaUrgY3Gaplv1YEd7ij jH/XObdIrm/HViTe1nJYTp0dotW1dYBNen0UVZFhwe0MVny9NyJLzqobiaod7tJb nULYOXtjcKwP1zkJDaHCcQ8jQrZZZ7O0emORW8z/zi1fXI/nUIA= =qjff -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5EC1B9EE-63AF-49FC-8E42-869FF1367293-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 01:20:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFAD3A0A8E for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ndxQZehVXqYB for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BAE43A0A8C for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1918KFVk2482152 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:20:16 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633076417; bh=76Vtpca/WhnTlPnY5O/XI4522hgug4KZP8ompBsqTRs=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UlgKM13hD6Z+bnXRAj3XdzNg3OowFqJQOAj3SbOPKP9vj20JEYhMFj4F9uz35oe0F 8D/VhLO+5NZryEJ/X54xxGNaKGFdrK9C8bAgM8Qb3y25UhIv0VvweMhGw+iEDEA4AN v1WM6HuDfoUW6rP4YC4yrfUgPT9DxGUWAToLOGTA= To: Lars Eggert Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <04f1edb1-b28f-b068-1ed7-57bfd5f84b0e@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:20:13 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4BnXeaazTDKEie0GEoHpLHXbfoaN3pNhI" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:20:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --4BnXeaazTDKEie0GEoHpLHXbfoaN3pNhI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SiQKpV5tJEzZaFiR0PIp4pEvnmuTDiaZ0"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Lars Eggert Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <04f1edb1-b28f-b068-1ed7-57bfd5f84b0e@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> --SiQKpV5tJEzZaFiR0PIp4pEvnmuTDiaZ0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BA19E6FE55228DDD292D7BC1" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BA19E6FE55228DDD292D7BC1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01.10.21 09:44, Lars Eggert wrote: > > instead of allowing an RSAB with vacancies to resume operation after so= me fixed time, I'd rather encode that there is an expectation that vacanc= ies should be filled within some period of time. Because if they aren't, = that is then an appealable event. There are serious=C2=A0 problems with this.=C2=A0 First, it is already di= fficult=20 to make non-events appealable.=C2=A0 At what point does that happen?=C2=A0= At the=20 moment that it can be said to be appealable we have a fixed time.=C2=A0 W= hat=20 happens the next time?=C2=A0 Does the appeals body hold to a precedent,=20 thereby themselves and not this group establishing a timeline, or do=20 they run the risk of being accused of inequitable treatment of=20 appellants?=C2=A0 Finally, if the IAB themselves are the people gumming u= p=20 the works, an appeal to them seems a foregone conclusion. Let's turn to your underlying concern: > The reason I am hesitant to allow an RSAB with vacancies to take action= s is that I was in a position as the IRTF stream owner where the RSOC (wh= ich I was never on) took decisions that forgot about the IRTF stream. I w= ould like this to be impossible to reoccur in the new structure. "Never" is a very long time and has consequences of its own, as=20 discussed.=C2=A0 However, we have put forth a structure that cannot "forg= et"=20 a stream so long as there are no vacancies, and we have left it up to=20 the streams to establish policies to manage those vacancies.=C2=A0 They c= an=20 move as quickly as they wish to fill those vacancies.=C2=A0 Knowing that = the=20 IETF and IAB like to be transparent, there are multiple approaches that=20 can be taken in their processes to address even short term vacancies: * Establish a policy that permits each body to appoint without consultation an interim RSAB member until normal consultative processes have taken place. * Establish a policy that whoever is acting as chair of those bodies sits as the RSAB member. * Establish a standby selection member policy in advance. * Establish a firm selection timeline. * Any other idea the streams may have. And one can combine it with a reasonable period of delay with the RSAB.=C2= =A0=20 Just not infinite. Eliot (again, with no hats) --------------BA19E6FE55228DDD292D7BC1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<again, no hats on; just individual Eliot>

On 01.10.21 09:44, Lars Eggert wrote:<= br> 

instead of allowing an RSAB =
with vacancies to resume operation after some fixed time, I'd rather enco=
de that there is an expectation that vacancies should be filled within so=
me period of time. Because if they aren't, that is then an appealable eve=
nt.

There are serious=C2=A0 problems with this.=C2=A0 First, it is alr= eady difficult to make non-events appealable.=C2=A0 At what point does t= hat happen?=C2=A0 At the moment that it can be said to be appealable we= have a fixed time.=C2=A0 What happens the next time?=C2=A0 Does the= appeals body hold to a precedent, thereby themselves and not this group establishing a timeline, or do they run the risk of being accused of inequitable treatment of appellants?=C2=A0 Finally, if the IAB themselves are the people gumming up the works, an appeal to them seems a foregone conclusion.

Let's turn to your underlying concern: 

The reason I am hesitant to =
allow an RSAB with vacancies to take actions is that I was in a position =
as the IRTF stream owner where the RSOC (which I was never on) took decis=
ions that forgot about the IRTF stream. I would like this to be impossibl=
e to reoccur in the new structure.

"Never" is a very long time and has consequences of its own, as discussed.=C2=A0 However, we have put forth a structure that cannot= "forget" a stream so long as there are no vacancies, and we have left it up to the streams to establish policies to manage those vacancies.=C2=A0 They can move as quickly as they wish to fill thos= e vacancies.=C2=A0 Knowing that the IETF and IAB like to be transpare= nt, there are multiple approaches that can be taken in their processes to address even short term vacancies:

  • Establish a policy that permits each body to appoint without consultation an interim RSAB member until normal consultative processes have taken place.
  • Establish a policy that whoever is acting as chair of those bodies sits as the RSAB member.
  • Establish a standby selection member policy in advance.
  • Establish a firm selection timeline.
  • Any other idea the streams may have.

And one can combine it with a reasonable period of delay with the RSAB.=C2=A0 Just not infinite.

Eliot (again, with no hats)


--------------BA19E6FE55228DDD292D7BC1-- --SiQKpV5tJEzZaFiR0PIp4pEvnmuTDiaZ0-- --4BnXeaazTDKEie0GEoHpLHXbfoaN3pNhI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFWxL0FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPp ywf/eVrvL9KeK6Dlv/+AEPEzO1IjYi8iAJf1+2ASwgONaj9EEDhg8Fl0ojYXK9abOz0ehtqweCYP OY09c2KJ+nhBMXcQOM6qVTYmNDa8LNhXO+LuZ6TmdDpryTm3W4MIJOPW7mTAijOm/RIzHvCyjZbC BLq+S23F8Or0v6EBewCJ/zveltYxaRMM5DO6ZXDiRvER3z+dRVFyZB/XW+sk4Y13pBrG35rFFRNU EwqNO+aR/BYpuSXDQY2kdiQN/lYll3kDgxIzmhz4VeY2WGvar3RayxIZS5J1CAPlUpMMBkP8Cmgn i8hFvfKwuYTxj9APXVZfAu+yUcf+m4vEnRpRx37eXw== =gBb6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4BnXeaazTDKEie0GEoHpLHXbfoaN3pNhI-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 01:37:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370C83A0B4D for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:37:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v_EJk6ZtX3er for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400113.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 799783A0B55 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:37:43 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=OQ850xb/Rcf2eV3yjOTC7G5IDGVuG7fzJ0r+2lhu2gAUsosVzD4qwexhjDRNWH+U3S5x/ohBvCcv+zabDtxJokc/C5+hboqDBDmnYNwJlgDtTGXZAf8mARuJrfKKH/Vb87oJWHiVCqWrTwHPkYWIAIeqxwtgGISW0Qqlidajf1PTExAWsGpmSOfTiY9+kAR2lV+9nVD3jtKk2UhbSU9J4v54pO5uZhOm6Wq6Cky76IKrLeUO0Vbqla4KKniU/Iibts66SehyTYo/TDr/+fQE8tipkKzY+mR88yAS2JF2yusfAw6G+nHBdRo+W3iYtagCp7tVJMftCKHOSeZ+byiWkA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=obtAVHMDqdZIBSiC0qChkhfu+J9odEbs/lLnRICCmRc=; b=Yb3/H664hODwCUJpMS0XBrbzO9rbeYLqpRj2Co7bwJBLFPaBsA8b7dnOfvjeuweWlkd3PXclkOldp5AOYa6icthhJVnZqvwzHWoy9fFJ/erIZWTh1PLuW8FOoajXHGgeEryYxE4gEd00qthsH5nQoD/28EOi9Z1z2zJdpsOC3cHTCXH4jWgCMVEMSSOiP9s4KhRPHz9ZiQ8VApnvpxTr9ifawg1GMXmO2u2bX0icwus3yqWLEJ3jiMcRJZjeMArv8PO4av+C0j+dh2og6BA6V1baSGVwrNLbz0c+gofxTVPlxkaTvxbMLpXQzKK1hF0tGC4Qv1xyvZxYQ6IC5nzyTw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=obtAVHMDqdZIBSiC0qChkhfu+J9odEbs/lLnRICCmRc=; b=eyiadP2eGNh2Ruel/DBnTN6EvHRXkIFhur4d6HZSKELrVumXbAyzDht95KpZD0TKqxIJ6HKKkr6KJzdaF5F6C8/aYGrPQrz5E7qdfmy670riEV463Y5j4yXLJU2TkoIUJUyRFIOPdTu9pL8xrMpyY5en1pGXDADpzXQ1z4bSuzY= Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TY2PR01MB2555.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:74::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4544.18; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:37:40 +0000 Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4019:84c4:5592:aa96]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4019:84c4:5592:aa96%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4544.022; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:37:40 +0000 To: Lars Eggert , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <3d7437c5-5560-d6e7-a106-6d5aecdf4f1e@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <789949a7-cd71-5d75-32e4-26f4c8bdc5e0@lear.ch> <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University Message-ID: <13dacfaa-a9c7-5fd8-4f7d-8acfcf5fe87c@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 17:37:37 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 In-Reply-To: <4C4B9C66-2F95-4C15-9220-C21E8134FE9B@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0133.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::25) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.7] (114.180.49.132) by TYAPR01CA0133.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4566.14 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:37:39 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 2e747a02-0d2f-49c3-4b1b-08d984b6bab5 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TY2PR01MB2555: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(346002)(396003)(39850400004)(136003)(366004)(6486002)(66556008)(16576012)(36916002)(8676002)(5660300002)(4326008)(186003)(2616005)(52116002)(316002)(508600001)(26005)(66476007)(8936002)(110136005)(53546011)(956004)(31686004)(66946007)(31696002)(4001150100001)(38350700002)(38100700002)(86362001)(66574015)(2906002)(83380400001)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?Y3hsUzVUNlhpZFNIRHdINWJ5L0tNdFYyQ3NOUHhMQWx1c2pXTEozREY5WlRo?= =?utf-8?B?cTlDdHA1MTlzYlNuUVJoRzVYVm5aWmJMSytEU1F3cHFSd0o4L2M4c1Zjb1hq?= =?utf-8?B?TVBRR3dSMTJ6S1ZBSEFCRVVvMDdRb2trbGNQd3BPNkhmZU51S2o3ci8zdnZt?= =?utf-8?B?WlRmQlJoNTNQa3dzdklmUmNJWVBTQkJUVGkxV051S1lia2VITzJjdys2N1NY?= =?utf-8?B?SzRabEQ1YjNqNjFuRFlFZ1pNRHRpd1RHODdNa09Ua1VrWTNUK2tCZXZmNDVW?= =?utf-8?B?YnFhbmxWcnlJMlhsMDA5QktiZkkwN2dXSE0xWmtyVng2Mjc0eksvTkpZQy82?= =?utf-8?B?TFVtODBWdnJoVEd6ektKb0IrL2d5cWg0RUxrQkN3Qnpzb2JUZlhLRlE0UFQ2?= =?utf-8?B?M3BjSkgwUFQ5M1MxdnhSL0tiNUt0dzVZeG8wd2tTSGNBUXd2RXRrbk1uc2t3?= =?utf-8?B?azRoTnhBQThHZnhCMDg0d1NSR0g5dm1qM21tWHIvbytLNnVvUGczOFprOFBq?= =?utf-8?B?dDU3N2t6WGNDYlEvcXZiUGtHZEJuMzBoWTNOTEdGQy8wQXUyNGFuOEVhTjUw?= =?utf-8?B?R3NMVXNqZG50TTdKQlAycGRMQnFqYitKNDJMclViVzdncERLbk80NkxvM0hD?= =?utf-8?B?Zm1JeDBQSjkwQ1o3am14ZGcvVTUvdjN4QnZlT2Nmb2JnZElXRmlJRGE2ejZV?= =?utf-8?B?OU0vdjB4TkNtUTdCdDRpUjlvcUdERVRRenVBZnF6Y3dwcHozZ3hLWUgrTmFM?= =?utf-8?B?aE5YcUUwbHBobnUvdzR1Um0rSUVCVDdhdGc4bWFaSFBDQVNaVXdLeGZ4S3dn?= =?utf-8?B?UVU4STk5WWlPLy9kbVNDT2RQZ2Z6akx4TjR3YkVkblB5MHVmVnBhajdPditC?= =?utf-8?B?eHdneEhoRVpvQWlkMTEzdFIzdXVxaFVZbjYrbkxKOVZxb0RiUFI1Zm5xTGwr?= =?utf-8?B?RjBhQTllaGE2aFB3MnpBSUF5L0FaamZkdWZ4b3UrM3hPdkFDYmNCYk9XUGF3?= =?utf-8?B?VWFVTU52bDRKdGlmb0dUa0tTWW51bmpuSFVUT2FQK3YwNlpRZ1NXVC9DUTdU?= =?utf-8?B?WDlCZ2tUMlBKbXZTV0p5bXVrN0R1KzFTbC9lbFRya2dUdjFhT3BmeGt1UktV?= =?utf-8?B?ekhvcDZhREdwT2xHTmRpSEtVeEhKR2N3YjR3dnI5Y3hEdjgxVEp2MWtsYVhF?= =?utf-8?B?dFFuY2lyeDAwVS90Sm1tUXRZYUJyMENOZU0rTGFVZnpkMzVtMXlvdHE0Ymhw?= =?utf-8?B?bk50WHRZUFRQdGpKeG5GVk50WlRXMG1IK1U1TzBnZmJNbGI4ZG1hNTFzSEJy?= =?utf-8?B?VzJ0Mlp2Um01ZTI3WkhhaUlQR0pZV0EzbHAxZzBvdEpUWWMrbHd1bzQ4d0Qy?= =?utf-8?B?alNsdkZub291OHVrd2JuZWVlam9EWE8yRm9OUjVLYWtvVEN3MldBTGNPeUwz?= =?utf-8?B?bldTb1MxcitJWWtEOGREbkZudTREZUlGZytQbmJqV0RrSzhPOXcrUUFkbEVD?= =?utf-8?B?YTVXUGtHcVZ4bzVBelU3aDlTb2krNkVEZWNzdnVTaklxMkR4YS8wanJzUUNa?= =?utf-8?B?dkdDWVIwRWF1c1RuNU5IRERna01DN1Z4R3I2UEFhby9DZDF0RHZZRnprSDNR?= =?utf-8?B?dllyMXNPWUExenBNU3V5UG93SlRhQlZBRHFXWnlHR1g0bjBSRndlZXVXZ3A4?= =?utf-8?B?bHJ3OTBCanFHT2V6d1NaUU9iQjJMVGVldVVWTGNQaVBZK0YrYVBuT05xakJq?= =?utf-8?Q?PoeDJM5zuHRI8nm/uo0lvLtkMdpOhIvhPnt3jUl?= X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2e747a02-0d2f-49c3-4b1b-08d984b6bab5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Oct 2021 08:37:40.2457 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: PIZDlFcx2qLG4gIamdr5d8gtpy8LTiEr/gkIJ4jVMyzoPlRWvd9QdBQruIGnjh69NBqMMxYRutUP0eVugggkOA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY2PR01MB2555 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:37:49 -0000 Hello Lars, others, On 2021-10-01 16:44, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-10-1, at 10:36, Eliot Lear wrote: >> On 01.10.21 08:11, Martin J. Dürst wrote: >>> On 2021-10-01 14:28, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> >>>> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting, key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy. I believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern now. This issue will close on the 12th of October. >>> >>> I agree with the sentiment, but I think it has already been mentioned that creating a vacancy might allow a single stream to block progress effectively infinitely. >> >> This is indeed my concern. This amounts to a pocket veto by one stream and subverts our already agreed approval flow. I personally have a serious issue with providing so much power to any one stream. I proposed as an alternative in the meeting that approvals should be paused for no more than 8 weeks in the case of a vacancy. I would be just as happy if that were 12 weeks, but it cannot be an infinite period of time. That just creates all the wrong incentives. > > instead of allowing an RSAB with vacancies to resume operation after some fixed time, I'd rather encode that there is an expectation that vacancies should be filled within some period of time. Because if they aren't, that is then an appealable event. > > The reason I am hesitant to allow an RSAB with vacancies to take actions is that I was in a position as the IRTF stream owner where the RSOC (which I was never on) took decisions that forgot about the IRTF stream. I would like this to be impossible to reoccur in the new structure. I think this is a valid point. But what about the proposal I made in an earlier mail: temporary appointments. In some way, the situation is different than with the RSOC. The IRTF didn't have a chance to tell the RSAB that there was a problem. If a stream doesn't manage to make at least a temporary appointment within a certain time frame, then isn't it more the stream than any other piece that is to blame if their concerns get ignored? As for the expectation that vacancies are filled within some period of time, that makes sense. But it doesn't make sense if there is no consequence when it's not followed. And being an appealable event isn't a serious consequence unless the appeal leads to a fix. In the limit, that can only be guaranteed if the appeal body can appoint a (temporary) replacement. Regards,   Martin. > Thanks, > Lars > From nobody Fri Oct 1 06:18:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2185C3A0ABA for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:18:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jcl6Et8Pk9R for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB9113A0AB4 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 191DIO5B2626809 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:18:24 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633094305; bh=s49QytumA9JOhV0B+Krf24X+n3PukyMjoSPfmUD6vkY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Zw6yif/yMwSCN4cGdwGI9cfuZGzgAAni10Ctx7zddLPjjntaCErphANazg4mJVrcs 7W07yNPXx+G2vtp3MxkH/lvFUBx/el8+Yo46QeIn0dAfOoQmzEfKy+xYEgHz51vYTv mvxANkzDqTGrbCw6zwuNyNLpNi+MUr8r343xOL2U= To: "Salz, Rich" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <6927C6AC-6024-40DE-BE71-19CC44DD165B@akamai.com> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:18:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6927C6AC-6024-40DE-BE71-19CC44DD165B@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="le9DrqAlnH4dxVkJ7Ybt2dGy2B4IbW5hQ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] draft minutes uploaded and next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:18:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --le9DrqAlnH4dxVkJ7Ybt2dGy2B4IbW5hQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PpWyleZRMNb1vO5nRbG2bPfvgdsDI1fwx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Salz, Rich" , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] draft minutes uploaded and next steps References: <6927C6AC-6024-40DE-BE71-19CC44DD165B@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <6927C6AC-6024-40DE-BE71-19CC44DD165B@akamai.com> --PpWyleZRMNb1vO5nRbG2bPfvgdsDI1fwx Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F30D4E866F6904D9571E0F4F" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F30D4E866F6904D9571E0F4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doh!=C2=A0 Yes. On 01.10.21 15:16, Salz, Rich wrote: > > Will **NOT** be the only opportunity, I assume.=C2=A0 Last bullet. > > *From: *Eliot Lear > *Date: *Friday, October 1, 2021 at 1:25 AM > *To: *"rfced-future@iab.org" > *Subject: *[Rfced-future] draft minutes uploaded and next steps > > Hi everyone, > > The draft minutes have been uploaded and can be viewed here=20 > .=C2=A0=20 > I want to point out a few things: > > * Modulo some tracking issues that we intend to administratively > close, *ALL* issues have proposed resolutions and the date by > which, barring lack of rough consensus, they will close. > * Of particular note are issues 81, 82 and 84.=C2=A0 See a separate n= otes. > * We expect draft -04 to issue no later than the 11th of this month. > * We anticipate entering the equivalent of WGLC on or around the 12th= =2E > * Based on RFC 4845, it will be the IAB who largely will control the > timing of progress, once we complete any changes based on WGLC, > but we hope to be in broader community review PRIOR to the IETF > meeting. > * As you will have seen, we have modified the IETF meeting request > to be only an hour, and we expect the agenda to be used to answer > any concerns or questions that will have thus far been raised by > the wider=C2=A0 community.=C2=A0 That meeting will, of course, be t= he only > opportunity to raise concerns.=C2=A0 The only other agenda item I > anticipate is a status report. > > Eliot > --------------F30D4E866F6904D9571E0F4F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Doh!=C2=A0 Yes.

On 01.10.21 15:16, Salz, Rich wrote:

Will *NOT* be the only opportunity,= I assume.=C2=A0 Last bullet.

=C2=A0

From: <= span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>
Date: Friday, October 1, 2021 at 1:25 AM
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" <rfced-future@iab.org>
Subject: [Rfced-future] draft minutes uploaded and next steps

=C2=A0

Hi everyone,

The draft minutes have been uploaded and can be viewed here.=C2=A0 I want to point out a few things:<= /p>

  • Modulo some tracking issues that we intend to administratively close, ALL issues have proposed resolutions and the date by which, barring lack of rough consensus, they will close.
  • Of particular note are issues 81, 82 and 84.=C2=A0 See a sepa= rate notes.
  • We expect draft -04 to issue no later than the 11th of this month.
  • We anticipate entering the equivalent of WGLC on or around the 12th.
  • Based on RFC 4845, it will be the IAB who largely will control the timing of progress, once we complete any changes based on WGLC, but we hope to be in broader community review PRIOR to the IETF meeting.
  • As you will have seen, we have modified the IETF meeting request to be only an hour, and we expect the agenda to be used to answer any concerns or questions that will have thus far been raised by the wider=C2=A0 community.=C2=A0 That meet= ing will, of course, be the only opportunity to raise concerns.=C2=A0 T= he only other agenda item I anticipate is a status report.<= /o:p>

Eliot

=C2=A0

--------------F30D4E866F6904D9571E0F4F-- --PpWyleZRMNb1vO5nRbG2bPfvgdsDI1fwx-- --le9DrqAlnH4dxVkJ7Ybt2dGy2B4IbW5hQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFXCp8FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMh 8wf/Tjv4X56CjuwfB7yBh7zSM3F9Nj+gR+yDKIFxcg821u8sby9Sg6VbH//iLtWx75s1LJ0wvvK2 M3VAHBfWz3pI0NYCC/uzIlxAAPfTGgRwgtNzFBhEHbFzyNTLyJ5H7yqvhvFPK7FKwp5ofI3JCuAR ccjXCjCkp/ovwrcizfuKgXcOXGevan1b8UgwzMQRUXsBWYKwgtyZMH51UOOlmblQfa/H/T0W97Af 2OvXRk3ddTAWtBaZ17h4k+4VZhXahk1TInV0yj7AdWYU60G5zSLo009qKCwbLMLZnM253nKFcjpZ V/V3SKut7O58YyPZm+Uqxm7Ubd5+l2lihp1XQ0Mxjg== =3qse -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --le9DrqAlnH4dxVkJ7Ybt2dGy2B4IbW5hQ-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 09:56:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC3E3A0E05 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:56:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=tamkH6Ro; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iDD2reWO Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id icMboghVDM0n for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7738C3A0E04 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 09:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619925C0163; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:56:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=u Ajv4psLrHVPLLUGoWB2RrmqvhbrJJk/kOjfO6TS3T0=; b=tamkH6Ro8P+7rauBW J+j5ptGzRhm8Eg4pCedwpleRNhrdFy2GKQKw1DtciHGe8a0tz56LnTsTEoa9TVxh a5QT376HeWnlhRvDjYo37gDOgY4pSXkZoXu8dbAP+Z9pjfdhwQvYKWe4WWhckdNn U/GIvYq5PZBPPtDEv1lzPd/ARNBzvKABVB+MEhG508dMAc6fQ4THeixyP1A3IgBF qJ6kwOZ1sgBAF4yjYgKPiA/csunTQoFmbMdR5+kx/vlVDmLWnRL8NNw4MYjd8gDD IgRK8N79IEpxSY53UFR05SHPog0asIXEuRrXLblQmknv9oOnO9fUGdRCn+oZdBIZ Ug+BA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=uAjv4psLrHVPLLUGoWB2RrmqvhbrJJk/kOjfO6TS3 T0=; b=iDD2reWOjmAmouJsDo4a5RKowL26Mjj0Ki3jrZOi37kzQ1lHGuaIJXjGe zEWOR4Cu0tnOJPMx9vCFic6n56WVITOZo5qlY0XW6yopndVPlqUo65P9068RDCQ4 b+xgUc9rGTc2yBmYX7P4IFFy62lcgbS2B4P6m3JeFy8/B/DjCD/HY3raHQQb8rLd fudRMN77U1JWSKKrWXuHegqozKi8Vu3XZ7spN5H/fXHYrkJuhJwhvxjw0c81u9La shTXYOPgpOih3F/f7hvJ4I9AiL3P15DR7Vu6ZbUSycYGVqLpAqUqjfydG7GNoTCh I98LbgYjfZ46E6AgWyNWZWuuaf1CQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudekiedguddtfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeejjeevkeekueeghfekudevheevieefgeetteekveetiefh gfeggfdvgeeuvdeuudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:56:38 -0400 (EDT) To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:56:34 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:56:46 -0000 On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting, > key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may > not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy.  I > believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others > disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about > vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern > now.  This issue will close on the 12th of October. FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is the text I currently have in my working draft: ### In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled. * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined shall continue as normal. Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed. ### Peter From nobody Fri Oct 1 10:17:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497223A0E4A for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ROKUoRg-u2mK for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 265E13A0E49 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id f130so9842709qke.6 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=/Zreit+ptJ4ZlPnM09uxZIBYoSNau+8GydeDzuVMNqw=; b=SEtlIJ0DJ1M8+cemaVTIchx2Q5ATTy87982mmBthL/szkXD3RhfiPTI0cnu/IkJJcH ggmtpRMzPzFJqQXNXAp2wyvQ266w+3EIUhuUVGQ4KbG+hJynd8t5ywtVdsHMTavSFN4X sjSX8tq8001Q7ceQedMhHHfc8EAfXdbZBgU1vDqzZ7h6pCi835wE2gwxmkS/+JSR0K25 J/U65dptETncJBD5Zvs+buxVSimooNehO9CbMXQoBpvAB0NJPQn2nUXrUq8F2GMlpqbL BDJ14Pt0wTDfVYq85Dv+TeePdsNZlOEOEZc5bTWKeXmJP1koRADtPzNDunTJQyItp0bP TUtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=/Zreit+ptJ4ZlPnM09uxZIBYoSNau+8GydeDzuVMNqw=; b=YD80TTTTX2xbv24OO0W99EkwUwFYj6HCHQgWNhLWkwbHe72nIefJwP+neIHjZHJIbM sbViNZF0JRgnQzKhd7dAlaqvVH13yuJA1AFnqfKix+G5Ik7XLHAztWbWsSfeCjzQ6Nof 8rmurjkXVQgnAoC2ZOTRBtlH+FeTzXiX3Y0QvmqGHjuw30itRAeh0bjKuaThKBtcm6mI Yl4O6PEr9eqxw/G3z6NLM3iOcG0czwx0in02SVeU78nB5g0G6oPmwjdrJ8858q5y0MaT 9Vwzkw/iYPxY6MuYdx8yugsnoHnh0T1x/ujCK9ij2h0KSSBQu3bLICmGABBTtIFNVZE/ r+aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533zupcxRJv73OsPd/ILzSKr5UdZ/NlmVr78q+ddFHZ7ohnWsGfD 9rdPulNfRHGNMBydG8ePWH0k2hBjveqNhIyNCz0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxE85NE64BbFiODAMy8iAHg94o26c/s2v6BWzoZx8njOzSSXkwXpXTr0/otRXZt2NB3lSx4LA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:9606:: with SMTP id y6mr10579266qkd.13.1633108621842; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x8sm3647076qtv.5.2021.10.01.10.17.01 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns Message-ID: <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:17:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 17:17:08 -0000 On 10/1/2021 12:56 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting, >> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may >> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy.  I >> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others >> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about >> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern >> now.  This issue will close on the 12th of October. > FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is the text > I currently have in my working draft: > > ### > > In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: > > * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by > the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have > been filled. > * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined > shall continue as normal. > > Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new > policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed. I see I missed too much from the meeting.  The has too many failure modes, the hostage possibilities notwithstanding. The RSCE is a voting member of the RSAB and is a hired position. "All due speed" could be anywhere from a month to a year (or never) depending on how attractive we make the job.  I *really* don't think you want to wait that long for the RSAB to approve documents.  AIRC (without referring to the current document), there is no process for appointing an interim RSCE nor should there be. I would also anticipate something like a 1-3 month period filling the ISE's slot if that becomes vacant. My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3), not a majority of the active membership,  are required to approve anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". Or am I missing something that was discussed during the call that mitigates either of the above items? Later, Mike ps - the document we're writing should probably indicate the original membership of the RSAB and their approval of this document in addition to any last call actions from the community. > > ### > > Peter > From nobody Fri Oct 1 10:25:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3CB3A0E51 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z09IzdbuIEuW for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06F343A0E4D for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id d18so12479501iof.13 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:25:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9H/JxbIQVu3Xr91yhPozvaZ5dW6RMVqFOEfxkEV8OOE=; b=D4FPFwQb7OD8SyJI4QZ0cCqTiusyJhaQexjvlDKgtgm2TlESakQbgLrIINHMjyzL56 tSLOEXZi6cFi5ar/8m9PBrJWd5Io6EV/9tGzFWg3HYwlquxF4YE7RdJtbCOywkcf9TS1 3Gcq5rrx1Xs7dErLwHxUa1APsEgOT/11YgjAxWUQhpcobmh6HDPejFnkOeNWrWllreTV XWbWcVYhbwYsZhHeQE2Xa+hnvtIpeRLc3LBXhwCQaegqKXJAyF5dqqpv6GjEBo0V3xGJ HNmBH0z0AW23bUH1FGc3CLFmPwjwajFDYgnwQL5HYEqLdCqT6l0f1HkcVvqFLQjcb8Gb rCyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9H/JxbIQVu3Xr91yhPozvaZ5dW6RMVqFOEfxkEV8OOE=; b=ePjEs+mqnagt8ZrZz+Clx6+57TJFM0XAUdn+NNNU06F+hLinZ6gmsvE77qLNbrOPED Q33ZA52kMqMn6LwFuT+PO4+WE74fiqXxvTFsR9XlPf0pQq4mXT9Zt7cn4VFsj7+YQik8 GBEBb/COlLKF3oLU4KW5VuYC+cf+ydmJBWQW17OpwTf639zJqwMa/i4gkkTXQy20SKqy I+f/1NjLqF0IkYrkjBWYgtodNS04z5Wk6q9zbuOuRJBYOXgnXIVdLTyrmQcJCl1tnvHW GhF7/dJqd+WFjr8BQoE6YbBpmICJr50KfKIXczmyJEbbwDueN14XpI13lRwrWCptzsdi V+gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530lwC2ZL+xSp/lnPuxF48f9b0yNsqscYd7xbX+RdquNIRlhLdcE rnkEBl7ssaFkBBqZAJOO1wwZsHw9CTRgV89Web79HVHcLjo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzgvoaC1LORgtYEAPZOm3VFHpGD+iY8xEkk/nv7bgc6AgzmumPRE++tZXhlyPmUCCw1Cp+H9ENZx0LTi3t1RSU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:134f:: with SMTP id u15mr11045542jad.82.1633109136676; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:25:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:25:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f8ae2305cd4dd9ac" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 17:25:44 -0000 --000000000000f8ae2305cd4dd9ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM Michael StJohns wrote: > On 10/1/2021 12:56 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting, > >> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may > >> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy. I > >> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others > >> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about > >> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern > >> now. This issue will close on the 12th of October. > > FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is the text > > I currently have in my working draft: > > > > ### > > > > In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: > > > > * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by > > the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have > > been filled. > > * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined > > shall continue as normal. > > > > Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new > > policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed. > > I see I missed too much from the meeting. The has too many failure > modes, the hostage possibilities notwithstanding. > > The RSCE is a voting member of the RSAB and is a hired position. "All > due speed" could be anywhere from a month to a year (or never) depending > on how attractive we make the job. I *really* don't think you want to > wait that long for the RSAB to approve documents. AIRC (without > referring to the current document), there is no process for appointing > an interim RSCE nor should there be. > > I would also anticipate something like a 1-3 month period filling the > ISE's slot if that becomes vacant. > > My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that > a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3), > not a majority of the active membership, are required to approve > anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be > approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". > FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well. -Ekr > Or am I missing something that was discussed during the call that > mitigates either of the above items? > > Later, Mike > > ps - the document we're writing should probably indicate the original > membership of the RSAB and their approval of this document in addition > to any last call actions from the community. > > > > > > ### > > > > Peter > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000f8ae2305cd4dd9ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM Micha= el StJohns <msj@nthpermutation= .com> wrote:
On 10/1/2021 12:56 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeti= ng,
>> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB = may
>> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy.= =C2=A0 I
>> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if other= s
>> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration = about
>> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that conce= rn
>> now.=C2=A0 This issue will close on the 12th of October.
> FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is the te= xt
> I currently have in my working draft:
>
> ###
>
> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>
> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies = have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 been filled.
> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 shall continue as normal.
>
> Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new
> policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed.
I see I missed too much from the meeting.=C2=A0 The has too many failure modes, the hostage possibilities notwithstanding.

The RSCE is a voting member of the RSAB and is a hired position. "All =
due speed" could be anywhere from a month to a year (or never) dependi= ng
on how attractive we make the job.=C2=A0 I *really* don't think you wan= t to
wait that long for the RSAB to approve documents.=C2=A0 AIRC (without
referring to the current document), there is no process for appointing
an interim RSCE nor should there be.

I would also anticipate something like a 1-3 month period filling the
ISE's slot if that becomes vacant.

My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),=
not a majority of the active membership,=C2=A0 are required to approve
anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".

=
FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well= .

-Ekr


Or am I missing something that was discussed during the call that
mitigates either of the above items?

Later, Mike

ps - the document we're writing should probably indicate the original <= br> membership of the RSAB and their approval of this document in addition
to any last call actions from the community.


>
> ###
>
> Peter
>

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000f8ae2305cd4dd9ac-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 12:53:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8A93A0813 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KaHK1EAKloJF for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4CFB3A0899 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:a4d8:14d4:bb61:6120]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 191JqhCW2818195 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:52:44 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633117965; bh=/sv0NSNv4cJZe1CAsrVWErAHRULkOeouZfbobsWzNhk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fBJw6vM7EWgcrt2MfZ8oU3Y3+P/hB+8Xn8aIeAnez4Mb8PIPKZI+aW/OPcNZYrsDt DQPvDIO4EGxCUy424oeT6PXTn1sC9yRP/VdgrYNEXvn5pCZ5K42GeKlwHiadxJhgWh 73/PpI9ExnxBRaSjgtMEmOGXHHabDrE1amipXCyM= To: Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:52:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9SzJqNTGLIrg9HQeKd6HCxMbmHYxdsaEK" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 19:53:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9SzJqNTGLIrg9HQeKd6HCxMbmHYxdsaEK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MUOOFMlATtOKyHUhRbHFDnV5v96mvUJvp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen Message-ID: <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: --MUOOFMlATtOKyHUhRbHFDnV5v96mvUJvp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B57B54F1DA90D5E3087CD327" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B57B54F1DA90D5E3087CD327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat,=20 I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat=20 still off, but seeking a bit of compromise. On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and > that > a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, > that's 3), > not a majority of the active membership,=C2=A0 are required to appr= ove > anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be > approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". > > > FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well.= I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some=20 nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run and=20 Lars' concern can be addressed. Eliot --------------B57B54F1DA90D5E3087CD327 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat still off, but seeking a bit of compromise.


On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote= :
My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that
a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),
not a majority of the active membership,=C2=A0 are required to approve
anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".

FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well.


I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run and Lars' concern can be addressed.

Eliot

--------------B57B54F1DA90D5E3087CD327-- --MUOOFMlATtOKyHUhRbHFDnV5v96mvUJvp-- --9SzJqNTGLIrg9HQeKd6HCxMbmHYxdsaEK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFXZwYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOo AQf9Gkp63WpguTo+h4Jsk7hCHRWv3NHXnQ32V9bSTLbUzKHQ3u5bzg85gbsPUSr/Is46bb8OOirN 38C2Xj8QG1wt7JB1zQB4ljC8gSjZNWnEVQQtsVPfR911sU1xYQnQYNXTO8Lndpzec5Ael1h9sCO0 tf1Z0EV91TbmxVc8DlTAO7XW2sIMvhZ+C/vI6Uqjw+SUJyISac/urHy47ByHwR/+qmww+VVU+mti DjmVQ2n/9x93nZBsRrGPnoDYJiJrdg0aruxZLAiM/255Qziq02goBPmsNsKsQY3H0Xu8DhPJ9c+p aYYfRUrNNP8XpKoGMPisEKheHRThXAnisHJZ6wlIRw== =+ANN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9SzJqNTGLIrg9HQeKd6HCxMbmHYxdsaEK-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 12:57:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6AD3A083A for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLh4bXpACZ0i for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22DC93A0836 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id x2so11773906ilm.2 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:56:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=U65fS+p2T/KsBRGB6qaOxkK7P1AX95iV0pgGOCS3upg=; b=lzQhV5Kzrt3LS99vKa58maohAVdlYih9NjKxK0/Huv94LleigT8tLntmVWjnpPjYPd vbq2BhQrkVXF7u+q6+jxmww6SxhrABbCijd+6+IC58IUQbOfppjz8gkY9V2RvQbT/1ny JPwaPIuoeio25XpBv+HDpUeZLDx8AK7tNpGKWk+Sf3HxBkng0EqpLmFvVA5WBpOYgboR mo22oMdEUtgmH3FlU+VdyW962w+YCtGGyqhcKDJLAS6RWYNC2OF8sazOYeedo1+y8DOi p77EfJdnczWo1lxTw41sbLC8b42i03p8oz0+mqmNJ+3PK37T5s3qEWP4hNsYGNyXVXYn mqtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=U65fS+p2T/KsBRGB6qaOxkK7P1AX95iV0pgGOCS3upg=; b=62zu3VrYUWetQN6QHk9kufLppyAGD6QjKJhhYT1V3G6Ow8NXqZlQI664W0IL7crc2f QZUqWyvDHCLCd2r3E/E0R8ysSZJqkN1YWpW+k8WOVrri+o+X6YvmKLF4fWh055iuhZSN GHXb13AXG4n9NqnuECX/kIZSdR7PNfU5SasbW7ypezxkkoRJ4SubECmlracvaaK2U+Vd UFkOGscDq3nKoBDZjOyygC1ICROrfNdcwbfEiRK8cmOBzWpLdODRXSYX9k4ejrabnTvG VZCps9hvB7RCr07jCzA9cHBu+WJ9uucDgxAMZPDj/hgERNu6vlFYP9gP5EfoVvNBLYsk rDgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530QsP+v2ETVwb7LISWHdUcA/F03OnwW/Uug8mPc+6AOyKnwxEyo /vSuQRoJrNH9cPRqaXyVBvVPqF8reqDRGWNw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYU/WAAU+lBqAQ7EYt1MxfB9AojKjVA4zjDo4VBlwS+MWdUqaUlxD1aZI23tFFSzI9h6dZ6A== X-Received: by 2002:a92:cbc2:: with SMTP id s2mr10312262ilq.228.1633118214165; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k5sm3808054ioc.7.2021.10.01.12.56.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Rosen Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BE4E509E-4B62-4C4A-9885-22F3F04B3BB9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:56:52 -0400 In-Reply-To: <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> Cc: Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org To: Eliot Lear References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 19:57:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BE4E509E-4B62-4C4A-9885-22F3F04B3BB9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Someone want to suggest text? Brian > On Oct 1, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, = I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat = still off, but seeking a bit of compromise. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that=20 >> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's = 3),=20 >> not a majority of the active membership, are required to approve=20 >> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be=20 >> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>=20 >> FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as = well. >=20 > I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some = nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run and = Lars' concern can be addressed. >=20 > Eliot >=20 --Apple-Mail=_BE4E509E-4B62-4C4A-9885-22F3F04B3BB9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Someone want to suggest text?

Brian


Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat still off, but seeking a bit of compromise.


On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:

My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that
a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),
not a majority of the active membership,  are required to approve
anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".

FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well.


I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run and Lars' concern can be addressed.

Eliot


--Apple-Mail=_BE4E509E-4B62-4C4A-9885-22F3F04B3BB9-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 13:04:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6D63A088A for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:04:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xlSZPwug_s2d for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09A053A0880 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:a4d8:14d4:bb61:6120]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 191K4f5s2824026 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Oct 2021 22:04:41 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633118681; bh=7cWeY2XPhGGSKtmXN9+62F+PruqhN4oit0kiasHSUxE=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=FfZqE9xgtjgqv7lNDdMeSCk3NuJ4pKDoeogxqLmPrpd+zoRF0OmHvO4uszICyzALq Ox9L8RyvyoNDHNZCGVhP5bd1l22zQjm56ldHSVxXk3dFDCszYfJeHZHcDH5Ihudaur 7Pz9J/u/pgdeZ25BDiM1fC8xrNY06iM46KbfnJ0c= To: Brian Rosen Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 22:04:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tgyJ8LWjB9bGrJ2zTMZq2TBuAVIniDZRj" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 20:04:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tgyJ8LWjB9bGrJ2zTMZq2TBuAVIniDZRj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NEaGjEvxdiA4fZtNTRzMqeHWgk8KCtBOg"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian Rosen Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: --NEaGjEvxdiA4fZtNTRzMqeHWgk8KCtBOg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------36E2C44093805781E7ABCF7D" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------36E2C44093805781E7ABCF7D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So something like Mike's but with an addendum: > The RSAB may approve documents when a majority of the specified=20 > membership is present, but must delay such votes for a period of up to = > two months when stream manager representative seat is vacant. That should give most processes a chance to run, and isn't a=20 ridiculously long period for editorial process changes and it doesn't=20 require that the RSCE position be filled. ? Eliot On 01.10.21 21:56, Brian Rosen wrote: > Someone want to suggest text? > > Brian > >> On Oct 1, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Eliot Lear > > wrote: >> >> Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, = >> I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair=20 >> hat still off, but seeking a bit of compromise. >> >> >> On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> >>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, >>> and that >>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, >>> that's 3), >>> not a majority of the active membership,=A0 are required to appro= ve >>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>> >>> >>> FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as wel= l. >> >> >> I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some=20 >> nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run=20 >> and Lars' concern can be addressed. >> >> Eliot >> > > --------------36E2C44093805781E7ABCF7D Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So something like Mike's but with an addendum:

The RSAB may approve documents when a majority of the specified membership is present, but must delay such votes for a period of up to two months when stream manager representative seat is vacant.

That should give most processes a chance to run, and isn't a ridiculously long period for editorial process changes and it doesn't require that the RSCE position be filled.

?

Eliot

On 01.10.21 21:56, Brian Rosen wrote:<= br>
Someone want to suggest text?

Brian

On Oct 1, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat still off, but seeking a bit of compromise.


On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:

My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that
a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),
not a majority of the active membership,=A0 are required to approve
anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".
=

FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well.


I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run and Lars' concern can be addressed.

Eliot



--------------36E2C44093805781E7ABCF7D-- --NEaGjEvxdiA4fZtNTRzMqeHWgk8KCtBOg-- --tgyJ8LWjB9bGrJ2zTMZq2TBuAVIniDZRj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFXadgFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOq iQf/ctTzjJ8NOXLfBHFkwDC3Zjh+HYYkv+uAIEE30GH83W6+AfaYEvdhM7TwZGrexlQqedS8dbke dtn40jIF9TzZ1nWCpv/5jVkEhyPdC1/swsDawD1PhotmYTkHJgjGqQt17fey1WS1DfAME1474Rhs FYWXcTei4eP4RNoKQCdQa3LIoyNxUhRbqdOxhrJC2MemiRHC5CiOOKcpXmN3lOXxmxa4nWNwWIYe GxdJh7AzrltApdF/1XEfdjbVB7XLZapzj8Wvg96VPQmyTyrVteufe1/upeMgFX8kj2E2mUUJn7/f 0Z4horgNJ1hYyjoORgWGkNtk0+YLL0xtF+q1WfofYQ== =pntb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tgyJ8LWjB9bGrJ2zTMZq2TBuAVIniDZRj-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 13:08:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337AC3A08B0 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:08:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id coupTK5yd30j for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A92433A08AC for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id n18so10371873pgm.12 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SBANNPjC1CjxXkz24rL56SFmDZw0spZOeo11i/dGNd4=; b=VVcE1Z+giU4Ww9M/URkPxaGnsOIUY1odRaGKWw3/0dJWvdiP6RCHnriPiz0O2hareI zFdWRCnxOfLVgjAmyYpAAVHkl5thaZcnkob+uQeboRDCsrAicfODXEkaD6KAds3Vzmgo EOOHHvLeF8cTzZ8AHJW5fGYRb4qi4HXTfGU5VSQYRmFlAdJcZ9kwrbDr8CrSr53He6lN lM/rlf2aKrAqOOWHcMtdwootI5YQUdkJACKC76J+r1KwMmvACXpLo9X4aHYSBefToReu WvHSgaXcQLWgoFjAWT723JMVhCvjcGIEI3tTy3LUpiGrLADXBLVp1UxgZtIQ7VFAWbt4 4hTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SBANNPjC1CjxXkz24rL56SFmDZw0spZOeo11i/dGNd4=; b=rQ/Md8fJcpqO7MTubHvYXXnJSJtcHPCfxLNkdQSdEfmEN0PkSXSNdl6YP3xrfaR/m5 8YesYqsEuvkm9TP0zwcrexcFz6WRfsjROSIXbmjAv63SLyWtEdwclvfvm9EzJjzcIQ/4 RZ8bEXjJmwqN0TVrmCEnHaG4svnnjZJ6rJb6oHePHZcPKc80ASbghPbcmzXU3fc94kDx tQ+a2uAha1VLvktoHFJY8H5zuA95mOJtuBkinicWy0IV2ju+cs80eCl9TzLbBpDwenNK fc9zKbdcj3RG9AQawYYlhJs2SmPdZgl88X+YAIlK/sym18elW9+J1GW0ONTtRJq7pjZH QDzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MBIVTWuvkrhCuJ+Vt4XVWVJP+cYrPXWAg13UbK17iQsG/8mYJ 5xZ2+PVFvqlkYxxsGKQv3UM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxotHds1Uc1MGv8rBMA6Sf/MrBB3TR4x3X79wRumnx6logd2otzrxGwCHFbuEQPYQVOBR5xww== X-Received: by 2002:a63:741:: with SMTP id 62mr4963903pgh.65.1633118915746; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k5sm8084494pfc.111.2021.10.01.13.08.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:08:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian Rosen , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 09:08:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 20:08:41 -0000 On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: > Someone want to suggest text? > > Brian > ### In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. * Each stream may appoint an interim replacement to fill a vacant seat until the end of its normal term, by a process of its own choosing, and must do so within four weeks of a vacancy arising. * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined shall continue as normal. ### (And yes, that might still leave some corner cases.) Regards, The other Brian From nobody Fri Oct 1 13:10:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BAB33A08CB for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3N2Mwq5KWIOc for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B9463A08C7 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id 194so10324203qkj.11 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=WwfsQ+CHxYTQIka/RqY0syT+sSw197MWTG3MBahs3RY=; b=F/Uybls1ZwZpNtQWLIiYj9h/STJwlBIS034mY+O9Px8pn17oCPltJt7MukaT+obyAL 47aHk0j/u53Utdtal1AIkU344NaOb695DfL6Xy66VLW3zkxvlx4fyp7aSrjZDYUv7K+Z TDLI1Zr4aa5e8XM0GqWf+UC4lpCCj2pwLXtu6kf1DAiRIJ75rEldS2gMgkjwLv4ssI6N 8+dGn8c6zOMjkK7IS9/gvojZ9SPRPiuxUY5YaUoLKhtb4qimt2khWgi9Xzn6epRK9g5p K62xqehAW55myDy9kqFqPy+XT41G2GD0BtWy6QtCjHb4I+eytu2MH9apMR+StdXlSjYY yCng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=WwfsQ+CHxYTQIka/RqY0syT+sSw197MWTG3MBahs3RY=; b=OeQv0d+W+j+vN58ciT+GzP+KpnWUKGKQep/5DxBksjSCvINkcvi1n2B96HOyQdrK6E 2X2QnWBC5xTrNBl2MV9OP5/6rpZ3oH64a3M1lFp0xQUl3U5plzk1xyDwsacSOE/PRDk3 G2fjHVm6vRnQAc6/el0oba5ANdq1TZ2+4/gYrU9sfnQ7hUECeCMEDmbXn5ao8iaYUe9N 8lnYSW+GtFtvyhuF53RcPRqikwO6yr7BsIFs+N2o9pGLe48wdW0uxJ0DUBJzQQICZGY3 YApz34uqabgJKuluCefvHCcGYi+7AgpPb08XaIIOM0KTsExIFSuZeCPAw18KNZaPaIfm 56gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339sGb7Vm8qMLDE4a6oROZu1CJDXQ4VmWGVUBjqzAWaToVzGJRK RUDF955t1sBemAeFtAUkLUJyZg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzr4e4JoDY7/spdMpqA0THfFMukJLHtQrrqiBi4YNs50VvoXKS8T1OgnOqkVLfVPTw7ySPXwA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:482:: with SMTP id 2mr11606517qkr.102.1633119039631; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f24sm3870980qtq.25.2021.10.01.13.10.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:10:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B0ADE5D3AC5DFCA7B19990C9" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 20:10:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B0ADE5D3AC5DFCA7B19990C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/1/2021 3:52 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, > I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat > still off, but seeking a bit of compromise. > > > On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, >> and that >> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, >> that's 3), >> not a majority of the active membership,  are required to approve >> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >> >> >> FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well. > > > I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some > nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run > and Lars' concern can be addressed. > > Eliot > I submit that Lars' concerns aren't all that well founded in the "Soon to be New Reality" (tm).   Basically, the IESG, IRSG (or IRTF chair - not sure what arrangement the IRTF chair will come to), and the IAB are responsible for appointing their own members to the RSAB and replacing them as necessary.  Unlike the RSOC, each of those groups has an ex lege member on the RSAB that's there to look out for their interests (or the interests of their streams more properly).   Those groups will know of documents coming down the road in sufficient time to make sure there is someone to cast their stream's vote. If there's a need for a delay, that's a matter of courtesy based on a request from the body to the RSAB to give them a day or two to pick a stuckee from their own membership to at least cover the vote temporarily.  It doesn't need to be legislated to provide such a delay, nor should there ever be a case where the sending body is surprised about a vote.  In any case, it's the sending body's responsibility to make sure someone is there to cover their interests, not the responsibility of the RSAB  to twiddle it's thumbs waiting around for something that mostly should have been predictable - barring of course death, injury, illness, or someone who has basically decided to not even phone in their work.   Then there's the "well, I was just appointed, give me a month or so to get up to speed before I can vote...." problem which again is not the responsibility of the RSAB nor of the other sending bodies to address. That's all a long winded way of suggesting that there's not a need for a specified delay as you suggest. Later, Mike --------------B0ADE5D3AC5DFCA7B19990C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 10/1/2021 3:52 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Ok, because I've been active in this discussion without my chair hat, I'm going to ask Brian to manage closing this one; and so... chair hat still off, but seeking a bit of compromise.


On 01.10.21 19:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:

My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that
a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),
not a majority of the active membership,  are required to approve
anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".

FWIW, this seems to me like this seems like the right approach as well.


I wonder if we can run with something like this in addition to some nominal delay (pick a value) so that processes have a chance to run and Lars' concern can be addressed.

Eliot


I submit that Lars' concerns aren't all that well founded in the "Soon to be New Reality" (tm).   Basically, the IESG, IRSG (or IRTF chair - not sure what arrangement the IRTF chair will come to), and the IAB are responsible for appointing their own members to the RSAB and replacing them as necessary.  Unlike the RSOC, each of those groups has an ex lege member on the RSAB that's there to look out for their interests (or the interests of their streams more properly).   Those groups will know of documents coming down the road in sufficient time to make sure there is someone to cast their stream's vote.

If there's a need for a delay, that's a matter of courtesy based on a request from the body to the RSAB to give them a day or two to pick a stuckee from their own membership to at least cover the vote temporarily.  It doesn't need to be legislated to provide such a delay, nor should there ever be a case where the sending body is surprised about a vote.  In any case, it's the sending body's responsibility to make sure someone is there to cover their interests, not the responsibility of the RSAB  to twiddle it's thumbs waiting around for something that mostly should have been predictable - barring of course death, injury, illness, or someone who has basically decided to not even phone in their work.   Then there's the "well, I was just appointed, give me a month or so to get up to speed before I can vote...." problem which again is not the responsibility of the RSAB nor of the other sending bodies to address.

That's all a long winded way of suggesting that there's not a need for a specified delay as you suggest.

Later, Mike


--------------B0ADE5D3AC5DFCA7B19990C9-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 15:12:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F97B3A0DB7 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gF1Zmb6EoXdL for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA5653A0DB6 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id e16so209656qte.13 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:12:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=/rJMvJH+TOJ/uvZNj6IFzJ896e8LOO2nKjr3WAdZZ4M=; b=tNQkuwbBwCrrwzqyvlsMyYNip07k3RuZ+d0G950Luit5uLwOWk9XsYzFEKVa3CsBCp SanmmPLiAYSxQxfCljcPlGjzlnIh4k0venPjwMWJ2R592Orcn5pwKd/i4vmUxMA8TglM N9WNjeXY8LUBw26K7J8zP3FGYLgm3jHUogKjzvvOaSR4seLnsIbP4ZV4K22JzZ4lA/k2 huIczUd4toyKdmudzC4WJcRgjCVmCacfxEFY6wbO40q4S7g9r8DfewpIwoKiyubQxQ1u kxBE+SNDYPg2xwO+JjzFlyW3DP49ksyR+EOk7kzEvm+Ngcc2rDnca+sRV1VnnLip0CwG M4ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=/rJMvJH+TOJ/uvZNj6IFzJ896e8LOO2nKjr3WAdZZ4M=; b=LG75yZ7kNODDu6Mr05/Lq1sR7+LgOlSYBcDTt+/g9R3quSh9Ib7OWtTL60OEfz0X3S hAZ+7N/iF9yRQg019MB5huz2ww2FAlyqSVVA7PyudxJDI/lrnpWfwpDszSvtwItGXqqw Pas07LVtPIpbdzbFK1jOv29yvRKIvaf4NOMyriaf7BBVnUorHLo/yptQd0/ZDnW1tS2A iqkBwlzE5VTELKraIhql2+l5fvV3cTZ9fACnk2tCRamUgHzjmeuiyaRjYmwhb3p0EIlB 7ThXo7OPHiQt33InDBMJdCUY8urhMAPkKxaqXISydUzNMQhbEzSiAafAdOjoqtnc9ReM U+DQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530hoA9e29ViG0oeThujzak0jBCBNRAmDnVHBk76jx1q534Gz3q7 7Anl2rvW+g4fdB5jffO/nqF/Hw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+2RkfJkK1rpe4RKq+3WHQPrSSSJBeM5d27go9Yxq9dZxfDBmwsJVem792IgixTUEzTK3zyA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e53:: with SMTP id e19mr451183qtw.220.1633126320193; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d23sm4077066qto.91.2021.10.01.15.11.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:11:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter , Brian Rosen , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> From: Michael StJohns Message-ID: <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 18:11:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 22:12:05 -0000 On 10/1/2021 4:08 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >> Someone want to suggest text? >> >> Brian >> > ### > The RSAB has a quorum for business if at least a majority of the specified positions are non-vacant.  A yes vote of members in number equal to ROUNDUP((number of RSAB voting positions +1)/2) - e.g. the majority of specified positions, not the majority of non-vacant positions - is required for approval for publication of any documents by the RSAB.  The RSAB may not approve documents if it lacks a quorum, but may take any other actions within its purview through unanimous consent of the existing members (e.g. 2 in the current size body).  <<3 yes votes are needed for a 5 person body, if 3 seats are vacant documents may not be approved>> > In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: > > * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by > the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have > been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. Voting on approval of documents proposed to the RSAB by the RSWG shall not be delayed by a vacancy in any RSAB position unless the RSAB also has a majority of its positions vacant (e.g. has no quorum).  However, if the RSAB has a quorum, it may choose to honor (or reject) a request from one of the appointing entities for no more than a two week delay to allow for them to  designate a person of their choice to vote on their behalf until replaced or appointed formally. << given that with 1 member missing we still require 3 votes, if they are split 2/2 they may want to wait for a tie breaker.  If the document is less controversial and already has 3 votes not sure why they should wait, especially if it has down stream implications...>> > > * Each stream may appoint an interim replacement to fill a vacant > seat until the end of its normal term, by a process of its own > choosing, and must do so within four weeks of a vacancy arising. Each stream may appoint a replacement to fill a vacant seat either as a interim measure or as a permanent measure until the end of the seat's normal term.  <> > > * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined > shall continue as normal. > > ### > > (And yes, that might still leave some corner cases.) > > Regards, > The other Brian From nobody Sat Oct 2 04:10:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE61B3A0865 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 04:10:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67z4f9CtiMkr for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 04:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 705153A085D for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 04:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 192B9pkM3263770 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 2 Oct 2021 13:09:52 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633172992; bh=hhl3FbCeG4NjNyFUyjstkcy1KGJJp39enBULRqi9gk4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Q+uVMjpJ20lQ46kU+fZ9Qdz2K9wlTQnFnRlYeAG0mpi1+0YEYjSPH6HdoAGnHM724 e0LQbCDARLMT/bCLoZpbuVX86FHpFrz2FHIPlSua7N3S++QoOTxkM/f4/FRNDrRvn4 vNAZl5fYXQoYCfQJgf/j3lR7cGoQTHNcilXBVyuE= To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <129a0cfb-fac9-6b01-6d63-a72ea1ea7f86@lear.ch> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 13:09:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nvJQ5vDC7ZUdSoDYrJclmzDqnashOAoiQ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:10:08 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nvJQ5vDC7ZUdSoDYrJclmzDqnashOAoiQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ejP1ZmKn21oLMZEALgNJpZW2M9CnqDJHa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <129a0cfb-fac9-6b01-6d63-a72ea1ea7f86@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> --ejP1ZmKn21oLMZEALgNJpZW2M9CnqDJHa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US It'd be good to get people's views on all of this on the table now so we = can close as quickly as possible. Eliot On 02.10.21 00:11, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 10/1/2021 4:08 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>> Someone want to suggest text? >>> >>> Brian >>> >> ### >> > The RSAB has a quorum for business if at least a majority of the=20 > specified positions are non-vacant.=C2=A0 A yes vote of members in numb= er=20 > equal to ROUNDUP((number of RSAB voting positions +1)/2) - e.g. the=20 > majority of specified positions, not the majority of non-vacant=20 > positions - is required for approval for publication of any documents=20 > by the RSAB.=C2=A0 The RSAB may not approve documents if it lacks a quo= rum,=20 > but may take any other actions within its purview through unanimous=20 > consent of the existing members (e.g. 2 in the current size body).=C2=A0= =20 > <<3 yes votes are needed for a 5 person body, if 3 seats are vacant=20 > documents may not be approved>> > >> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >> >> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies = have >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. > Voting on approval of documents proposed to the RSAB by the RSWG shall = > not be delayed by a vacancy in any RSAB position unless the RSAB also=20 > has a majority of its positions vacant (e.g. has no quorum).=C2=A0 Howe= ver,=20 > if the RSAB has a quorum, it may choose to honor (or reject) a request = > from one of the appointing entities for no more than a two week delay=20 > to allow for them to=C2=A0 designate a person of their choice to vote o= n=20 > their behalf until replaced or appointed formally. << given that with=20 > 1 member missing we still require 3 votes, if they are split 2/2 they=20 > may want to wait for a tie breaker.=C2=A0 If the document is less=20 > controversial and already has 3 votes not sure why they should wait,=20 > especially if it has down stream implications...>> >> >> * Each stream may appoint an interim replacement to fill a vacant >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 seat until the end of its normal term, by a process of it= s own >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 choosing, and must do so within four weeks of a vacancy a= rising. > Each stream may appoint a replacement to fill a vacant seat either as=20 > a interim measure or as a permanent measure until the end of the=20 > seat's normal term.=C2=A0 < elsewhere>> >> >> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 shall continue as normal. > >> >> ### >> >> (And yes, that might still leave some corner cases.) >> >> Regards, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The other Brian > > --ejP1ZmKn21oLMZEALgNJpZW2M9CnqDJHa-- --nvJQ5vDC7ZUdSoDYrJclmzDqnashOAoiQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFYPfoFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOJ dgf9Fgh5eBDv8vcPHLUlrTX3/LWJaIMarLERJrccsyr50x5byk9+WcrlolzDT+AX2SyoMrqHvhHs SA0Aw7ehjWOA/GhPfvTNw+Z5FSk66COHCz1REBTRo8HAWzsQyvl5bxN6EcfwlXW4n3Bjq7lhbmG1 ysAovbIptmhYQZyFiXWOAkCgL2reY6NL1SrD9plJ9t2VcXD+o4XNPPWtZQYtIlaZVD3S3zMKA31u KV4qxnb+hiUZ8W3DzrLBt7M2boRDizO/1ZNCkuuGhBnnEpbb9ipg9S3Dr2romNo2rwu/UHlKe1Ir uNsjm4ulph8Iaf2m07NGl3Jdv/8k/YAkexxeX6Gy5Q== =Yudy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nvJQ5vDC7ZUdSoDYrJclmzDqnashOAoiQ-- From nobody Sat Oct 2 08:45:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524253A100A for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 08:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAs5YP7Il3mI for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 08:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 679653A100F for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 08:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7867300BE9 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:45:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id mbi63IgikQuT for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D1C8300B6A for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:45:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_70E29D08-800A-4ECA-8496-155D1752953F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:45:03 -0400 References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> To: rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> Message-Id: <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 15:45:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_70E29D08-800A-4ECA-8496-155D1752953F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM Michael StJohns > wrote: On 10/1/2021 12:56 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting, >> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may >> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy. I >> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others >> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about >> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern >> now. This issue will close on the 12th of October. > FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is the = text > I currently have in my working draft: > > ### > > In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: > > * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by > the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have > been filled. > * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined > shall continue as normal. > > Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new > policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed. I see I missed too much from the meeting. The has too many failure=20 modes, the hostage possibilities notwithstanding. The RSCE is a voting member of the RSAB and is a hired position. "All=20 due speed" could be anywhere from a month to a year (or never) depending=20= on how attractive we make the job. I *really* don't think you want to=20= wait that long for the RSAB to approve documents. AIRC (without=20 referring to the current document), there is no process for appointing=20= an interim RSCE nor should there be. I would also anticipate something like a 1-3 month period filling the=20 ISE's slot if that becomes vacant. My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that=20= a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),=20= not a majority of the active membership, are required to approve=20 anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be=20 approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". This approach seems better than potential paralysis. Russ= --Apple-Mail=_70E29D08-800A-4ECA-8496-155D1752953F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:
On 10/1/2021 12:56 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim meeting,
>> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSAB may
>> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy.  I
>> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if others
>> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration about
>> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that concern
>> now.  This issue will close on the 12th of October.
> FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is the text
> I currently have in my working draft:
>
> ###
>
> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>
> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by
>    the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have
>    been filled.
> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined
>    shall continue as normal.
>
> Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new
> policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed.

I see I missed too much from the meeting.  The has too many failure
modes, the hostage possibilities notwithstanding.

The RSCE is a voting member of the RSAB and is a hired position. "All
due speed" could be anywhere from a month to a year (or never) depending
on how attractive we make the job.  I *really* don't think you want to
wait that long for the RSAB to approve documents.  AIRC (without
referring to the current document), there is no process for appointing
an interim RSCE nor should there be.

I would also anticipate something like a 1-3 month period filling the
ISE's slot if that becomes vacant.

My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that
a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's 3),
not a majority of the active membership,  are required to approve
anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".

This approach seems better than potential paralysis.

Russ
--Apple-Mail=_70E29D08-800A-4ECA-8496-155D1752953F-- From nobody Sat Oct 2 14:31:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778BE3A07D2 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MC0jnQX6UQ69 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x532.google.com (mail-pg1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C37AB3A07C3 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id r2so12792825pgl.10 for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:31:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Kbjqp3bV8JSO4mi6yNoQ6b+UGr9h6bzxwrWHXwNlWno=; b=k2CT2Z96GZs+wyG1Otj4tsbZU9cE515FZbtjDR65YN9JbvfWpqFZFjrraWvkXSCfdB IWvXbCXB6P/1SxuxXevBmz9FUCUFunuFZ2P/7bs32e5f5seBmWdDZRnWZ7eeXCTeN7fv EKYdhPpmLGLYz+4lN1y98PZszZWijoIqL8yz4/Q/JSB0pNO8Qrgcc0h/L7qpWCkLvOUX YnfkJ6OjujrFqT5LJvmOSIXM7fK6vDui5sctLAn8EpRBNsSwb+W6+/zRYKogmzLSZ2TV JxAvM/rRA9dsroSuD52AwM3BY9xn/QJh3iXqjvHm2cqv6sQnhfz4mZ8B89hKJh6sCtIs EC6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Kbjqp3bV8JSO4mi6yNoQ6b+UGr9h6bzxwrWHXwNlWno=; b=V+oLLs4o7vxZGuRZeQ/F8KjvQNDY0wvFQqsTv2whWaUqToOG5gZcBCMwrQU6sv0fHe nwu4Qs6hfBBkSviC74DDWeeASn58/KZD/tAurV3H0T7BfLoTuWuRTPX9Fzk7b+u3yNr6 7ZxLmwQ3zV5HIlqpgTpotO1jBTZzF87OE6HY2QMlIYG9lRPot5m/rv756Ajlr0fLz3/M urZIYht2D3B0u7+yF2xWFRdDSr0+DqhLkmdmXdr1OD6v8fklVImHV4B0yJ6XmqOH/3Dx DsbCtI4zunjfMPsOPCph3/L+jFTH20TyfxcFvN0MRK+KrPjPyiSNqYNWTZ8wlnEOD6e5 MxFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sYZ2cT23FMDEYZjjmkJOiM26oH78aMchxsU1U1a1K3C3b6stU xzAueuFUvolJIinx4qy1tHUt6WIdUYEbWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxLcX0StNmg4QxXwH6WvoLnzr+v0gPmbq/tIcxQzSDrYQHVFkZ16T9ySf/jHSUO0jC9hv0p2A== X-Received: by 2002:a65:4209:: with SMTP id c9mr4201930pgq.399.1633210286816; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y42sm597914pfa.203.2021.10.02.14.31.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael StJohns , Brian Rosen , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:21 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <22d317f4-fbf6-9e11-9611-dc1915a44615@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 21:31:31 -0000 On 02-Oct-21 11:11, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 10/1/2021 4:08 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>> Someone want to suggest text? >>> >>> Brian >>> >> ### >> > The RSAB has a quorum for business if at least a majority of the=20 > specified positions are non-vacant.=C2=A0 A yes vote of members in numb= er=20 > equal to ROUNDUP((number of RSAB voting positions +1)/2) - e.g. the=20 > majority of specified positions, not the majority of non-vacant=20 > positions - is required for approval for publication of any documents b= y=20 > the RSAB.=C2=A0 The RSAB may not approve documents if it lacks a quorum= , but=20 > may take any other actions within its purview through unanimous consent=20 > of the existing members (e.g. 2 in the current size body).=C2=A0 <<3 ye= s=20 > votes are needed for a 5 person body, if 3 seats are vacant documents=20 > may not be approved>> I'm confused about why we need to specify any of that for a 5-member body= =2E It's over-engineered IMHO. >=20 >> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >> >> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. > Voting on approval of documents proposed to the RSAB by the RSWG shall = > not be delayed by a vacancy in any RSAB position unless the RSAB also=20 > has a majority of its positions vacant (e.g. has no quorum).=C2=A0 Howe= ver,=20 > if the RSAB has a quorum, it may choose to honor (or reject) a request = > from one of the appointing entities for no more than a two week delay t= o=20 > allow for them to=C2=A0 designate a person of their choice to vote on t= heir=20 > behalf until replaced or appointed formally. << given that with 1 membe= r=20 > missing we still require 3 votes, if they are split 2/2 they may want t= o=20 > wait for a tie breaker.=C2=A0 If the document is less controversial and=20 > already has 3 votes not sure why they should wait, especially if it has=20 > down stream implications...>> Ditto. The four week delay is to put pressure on the stream concerned to fill its vacancy urgently.=20 >> >> * Each stream may appoint an interim replacement to fill a vacant >> seat until the end of its normal term, by a process of its own >> choosing, and must do so within four weeks of a vacancy arising. > Each stream may appoint a replacement to fill a vacant seat either as a=20 > interim measure or as a permanent measure until the end of the seat's=20 > normal term.=C2=A0 <> Ack. Brian >> >> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined >> shall continue as normal. > >> >> ### >> >> (And yes, that might still leave some corner cases.) >> >> Regards, >> The other Brian >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Oct 2 14:34:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCED3A07C3 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fKhXI_BxhFO2 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99A7E3A07AA for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id k23so8901601pji.0 for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uDZN+XCNrqpD+Dm4Ey4B5naNI9O7hOYm3Ez6QAr1Nww=; b=lizkx8aOL5574pmynDPjOclIlCXiFAlUd51fgvi6JQUT0ft1/A/Tkzjogl6+LbEujr aFk3hDl7D3WH7RrGSNxcSsnN07qzOqC2yvpMfV8GClrIUpeR3FHAT4fe8y//LAmi+hHb sM8r25uoj+hIjYqgoh48aty06wwn2HjEXeP17ZJ2C3ps1G/EKhqT496TcmfVHp0M8PTn hQSlilUj0O06pV7MB/C3jWaTRRI3J9cJsbJDDmHx8oqQGzTu9gHowKuXsbH7yrKgcy9W 4LnQQPDK+E4YXHOeW2h30yp582AzjXeCd4eY6LxpPDh2mIWohYPXmsyXoXhJqNroWk0q aGrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uDZN+XCNrqpD+Dm4Ey4B5naNI9O7hOYm3Ez6QAr1Nww=; b=h9l6FsjgeEPwiVhaLTxDYM9Cbka+7ug9hNc4XnlYocDq6ZJ/K9y67qoOrT/GSNJlKz 1/lIuGUVEbWsEX5SYiYK7Xl7Bw0MFxFulrzCfnl4eyQvFRtIa61CVLr9xUHusd7qUYOz ENoTEEeWT0FHxkdmUwMZ7hwAMi6uRx0/3gtZH6h0vtzftVZX06vSQU1DcuF2BoO0vAxo QO4jkoDdlvn9NfVbVAqOKOPyrJ/wdblMYz7JBq3HqWvW1i/AaDkSbr7WTannInIjrPiK F+idkFmBJWMqPJEmd1KyzPp4JFiCNF4M3frzlLPxKPPZLCtS7WlJBRKQ6Zm3mOMb2War DxQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533WNK8rnhDIdJSgZ85e1vIkI8j1asV8gkF6ae/PRG5u57NXUOx5 3PKnpl63WDnNm2dJ+Me9eE9gxet2JD+w/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPl6nOCXosnKafFgY+ILTjEK6uDY6HLKlRPQe7ax13vOiHRBRw7hq9M/+582ZFYUU1RPS9Ig== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7184:: with SMTP id i4mr13844133pjk.16.1633210464960; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n66sm10043981pfn.142.2021.10.02.14.34.23 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:34:24 -0700 (PDT) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:34:20 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 21:34:30 -0000 On 03-Oct-21 04:45, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM Michael StJohns > wrote: >=20 > On 10/1/2021 12:56 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 9/30/21 11:28 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> I want to call out the discussion that we had in the interim mee= ting, > >> key result of which is that the group felt strongly that the RSA= B may > >> not proceed to consider document approvals if there is a vacancy= =2E=C2=A0 I > >> believe this also covers our discussion about quorum, but if oth= ers > >> disagree, either with the result of the group's consideration ab= out > >> vacancy or my interpretation about quorum, please raise that con= cern > >> now.=C2=A0 This issue will close on the 12th of October. > > FWIW, based on the discussion in our meeting this week, here is t= he text > > I currently have in my working draft: > > > > ### > > > > In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: > > > > * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacan= cies have > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 been filled. > > * Activities related to implementation of policies already define= d > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 shall continue as normal. > > > > Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new= > > policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due spee= d. >=20 > I see I missed too much from the meeting.=C2=A0 The has too many fa= ilure > modes, the hostage possibilities notwithstanding. >=20 > The RSCE is a voting member of the RSAB and is a hired position. "A= ll > due speed" could be anywhere from a month to a year (or never) depe= nding > on how attractive we make the job.=C2=A0 I *really* don't think you=20 want to > wait that long for the RSAB to approve documents.=C2=A0 AIRC (witho= ut > referring to the current document), there is no process for appoint= ing > an interim RSCE nor should there be. >=20 > I would also anticipate something like a 1-3 month period filling t= he > ISE's slot if that becomes vacant. >=20 > My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that > a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's=20 3), > not a majority of the active membership,=C2=A0 are required to appr= ove > anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be > approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >=20 >=20 > This approach seems better than potential paralysis. Yes, and indeed the RSCE role cannot be filled on a 4 week timescale; that has to be limited to the stream reps. (The Independent stream will have a little work to do to cover this point, but I think that should be handled later.) Brian =20 From nobody Sun Oct 3 01:46:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E713A0C2E for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 01:46:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snEVLQrwmiug for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 01:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119603A0C24 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 01:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1938kHbS3896872 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:46:19 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633250779; bh=9Y8Ias6qNV5iqTy5sw/BOd+01tXPbbe+xJ1vrhbVf6A=; h=To:References:Cc:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lLgbvae6C2iwdFpDIlwlu4w7/cN9B3amlhrDUCBKC5lkvUpifdfw5ML4spSNkoHDR FVbN0pIjq2DSYMk0RQ4dA+J2uZeNMFevjiYp+sX9TZY6w8OFpiVxbv9yD90vD2odEe Dvaul15wf9KI/ZdWoeG5JmFXXeBNpy53LSvjHemU= To: Brian E Carpenter References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:46:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aLDuT6Tre8e1OddDJub1vPNLIapvx8tNY" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 08:46:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --aLDuT6Tre8e1OddDJub1vPNLIapvx8tNY Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HdXEAUcnzGvbq2ewmwYBHDlo8nVHqGZIH"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: --HdXEAUcnzGvbq2ewmwYBHDlo8nVHqGZIH Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------106F5D08018D8A874CBBDAAC" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------106F5D08018D8A874CBBDAAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi again with no hats, On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and tha= t >> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that= 's > 3), >> not a majority of the active membership,=C2=A0 are required to ap= prove >> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >> >> >> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, on=20 the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood=20 alone in raising the concern.=C2=A0 Second, the average rate of change on= =20 these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months=20 shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a=20 stream to step on the gas.=C2=A0 I just want us to guard against intentio= nal=20 filibustering.=C2=A0 Recalls *cannot* be the answer to that, since they'v= e=20 never been shown to actually work. Eliot --------------106F5D08018D8A874CBBDAAC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi again with no hats,

On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
My original note suggestin=
g that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that
    a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's=20

3),

    not a majority of the =
active membership,=C2=A0 are required to approve
    anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be
    approved if the RSAB has any vacancy".


This approach seems better than potential paralysis.


While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, on the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood alone in raising the concern.=C2=A0 Second, the avera= ge rate of change on these documents is something like 5 1/2 years.=C2= =A0 Waiting a few months shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a stream to step on the gas.=C2=A0 I just = want us to guard against intentional filibustering.=C2=A0 Recalls can= not be the answer to that, since they've never been shown to actually work.

Eliot


--------------106F5D08018D8A874CBBDAAC-- --HdXEAUcnzGvbq2ewmwYBHDlo8nVHqGZIH-- --aLDuT6Tre8e1OddDJub1vPNLIapvx8tNY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFZbdYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPt Awf/TTu6THAz+oYysKEjWPEUgVdIHA4lOrYWYUkn8D2sFAqxQnQ3yiFN2wVUtVhGzNO76aeNo5+x jIiPY8xU3fHh36ewKMBnA7XXqFyhxYW/Zp0wVz7y4OxnPtYq7DSlC54N3L9v32gFQGzTT0zIeXGQ w30czBLbbPQHIU/qfLJYsaRnAqy6qHgDtHu1DE0CqLugU3NG3hf8QDvBrg+y5dvImyHcfYvltfZK +wCC9agOFOjsm+QRnoXUssmfsCcXxx7PVHaQiFohvqpdhilv2zTGeq8tbTnGHpxYoHJhkfo3MX/o Vabui6fNIgx8QCAD7PZH0BKPMaffGaMfHsz9Mq0lfQ== =d3jp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aLDuT6Tre8e1OddDJub1vPNLIapvx8tNY-- From nobody Sun Oct 3 02:31:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131133A0C53 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 02:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZTv7jtZJJvdv for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 02:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 896A13A0C47 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 02:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1939VMJu025001 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:22 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id C387F46050 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73494604C for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1939VKMb003337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:21 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:31:20 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBfkY5FQF4u/JtAdX8DOqqa18G4A== X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26444.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--2.472-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--2.472-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26444.006 X-TMASE-Result: 10--2.472200-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: ZFzIhWOuIztTx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtIiTd2l7lf6HZ0/3KlJ7594Xz KY0sCTC1QLRDmXgJh6hKy9WqVkK3tquh+nsiiEbDOIQ9GP2P2u/HKik02lpsOZgs1f7VFvxMt5u ab4qY5IL1L/IDK+sbUKmB/WMy6fl7Tqzf2kGEy+y+ZPZVRF6GWr4+VVm+gjZlvDGpIrQZI9HvKk 79ULzY7rjxGeBv+Zk37TznBQO8pUe35J/JantqGoKvnFrZK2UhmiIRKybdHSzbRPqvW5xmrZZ0E f/exmOdjJtwVfxWYS0Hh9opcaagxMWMYfEdC2+2lVHM/F6YkvSteS443ymeUTP8jlfixNrzyEMt NzCbyqgwP/xMcf9KkyQbn6htrz50L61O1NzZqAPC0TXpqtexIt0pE2POjYg4ROqr1drjnLkNRp1 fxVxZ8LlMlG8uY3GL+dkY5u9Cc54BnRWeplXmQRz2MDiYujy5W9DGjPU7rM8OUs4CTUgKy+d+Bp xtlvn4QDiPpqLPrkFJN78q5zxPCnjW02zW+psqC8FMH3T6F76pvf+jmz45w0vYgZelKbpDdzEKs KQEeFoMyrfP9j+C1d934/rDAK3zlGdyD+QE2h8pgHnBBj8n5dzioL19nui48Lw/sYXxNrkCZhHC /zldGjEA4JqGdQv284DDZsdnrBck0Wb0oJODPaCGK8krre2TEgl4BHS6yeA2Fo4EfHNqXY5MJKd FN6D6I9UhQYuUjidG3TVmsFmvfmY7eqLvyw0k X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 09:31:32 -0000 I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the RSAB = should not be able to act with unfilled places. My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that had = negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s = delegate was unappointed. But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 Let=E2=80=99s change OLD The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the IESG o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the IRTF Chair o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] o The RFC Series Consulting Editor NEW The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] o The RFC Series Consulting Editor END In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the 'major' = streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is automatically = filled. Our only risks become: - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful = completion I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense = with language about vacancies. Cheers, Adrian From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum Hi again with no hats, On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that's=20 3), not a majority of the active membership, are required to approve anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". This approach seems better than potential paralysis. While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, on = the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering. Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've = never been shown to actually work. Eliot From nobody Sun Oct 3 02:39:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60AE3A0C60 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 02:39:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 64W4mGM8zJQA for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 02:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CD533A0C5C for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 02:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:41d3:d5f4:bce3:25b]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1939dJip3922686 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Oct 2021 11:39:20 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633253960; bh=7R/6mtXbc+UwU5AKEKkKIxUCrwpcpFhjuazXuU/GYy4=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=VCmZylRoXO9LDxhH65ON65KhL6TcU+3CgVcldtvH7sKcvIz0wvxGNwXS8h665HZ4g ejOEAG0nyBJNU/yGZJ50xGgUpZYb9mU3MIQdgVeT5j8GvQDpZZ864iTpDlvGnmWMW+ XL45XOWqyVpHa/wmmtWdHDj80re//g4COxUXfMXs= To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 11:39:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G3HKran7katDR1LQAkK7aQ7VXe0MI4qT5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 09:39:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --G3HKran7katDR1LQAkK7aQ7VXe0MI4qT5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="vsnQZbsrmBcpEhH6OgMkzEbFMARiq6IHV"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> --vsnQZbsrmBcpEhH6OgMkzEbFMARiq6IHV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Again, no hats.=C2=A0 This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 "stream head" is. Eliot On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the RSAB = should not be able to act with unfilled places. > > My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that had = negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s d= elegate was unappointed. > > But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 > > Let=E2=80=99s change > OLD > The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: > > o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the IESG= > > o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB > > o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the IRTF= > Chair > > o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] > > o The RFC Series Consulting Editor > NEW > The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: > > o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG > > o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB > > o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Cha= ir > > o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] > > o The RFC Series Consulting Editor > END > > In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the 'major' s= treams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is automatically fi= lled. > > Our only risks become: > - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) > - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) > - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful co= mpletion > > I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense wi= th language about vacancies. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > > From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot Le= ar > Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 > To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum > > Hi again with no hats, > On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and that= > a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that'= s > 3), > not a majority of the active membership, are required to approve > anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be > approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". > > > This approach seems better than potential paralysis. > > While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, on = the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood alon= e in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on these do= cuments is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months shouldn't ca= use substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a stream to ste= p on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional filibustering.= Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown to= actually work. > Eliot > > --vsnQZbsrmBcpEhH6OgMkzEbFMARiq6IHV-- --G3HKran7katDR1LQAkK7aQ7VXe0MI4qT5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFZekcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPu FQf9ErzXbuwJOvx3zM8Ba//p9XDckwooviaAiezChp47y1+McSZGWKXpuamTWOQ+PY3fMAr98Nkv GQ+Q7LlJm1Rlx3OIK6zIto9Rq2yASMBQn6Norfo4HiSUPxPoN8jSZFfbPBJtXIOPh5p4LJDCEO9/ p5+Ho4MxPLzB9fSPMMkQQYHBRASDd3JZd1V4JC0QQcQm5blvj6mv1skB/piSCLMhpLRKpy1v0Ewk QZXOe0SIhSwa2hJGYM/+Oh9sMaVpIngknl6Ozc9hf/SJh0xg++OdwZ4jCTfVM/XTg56s6Czzzpx/ 3sbj2k5jSTafROKi5OOFC1n5MV/uz6CRyYT105p0Uw== =LGXG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G3HKran7katDR1LQAkK7aQ7VXe0MI4qT5-- From nobody Sun Oct 3 12:48:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0144B3A0BAC for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 12:48:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rT-jmNZoPQe6 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 12:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1C1C3A0BA9 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 12:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id g14so12732306pfm.1 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 12:48:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xutex0d9LE3jaXHTqmiwLto2Soo6Ee+ob6B0Sm3TWvY=; b=nlunKbnzUtS9uPWvNbFN3t0CY8/ymWNIKwkL+qDf9jHB2JZvq8egaM1KJJcszgzj+Y kfJstB9GC+XQa4MdXCM1xK/fymBD713IUf3lfrBkxdC/AUe+XQfTUAMK7ymdstBsHEaU /ZAUiwBpxpSxTp5IxfrAl0iZh5+wUmVzn22RfzenS8qr/7V/oxMVyPtibyFhXoISu7BI L4LHa+tRkDVzJkb1cXxV/mnDGK7vBJZ1LkZW9Yk0HRwHW8ySMpmBrZ93x7IqJG9tNL87 g0ADv32KIcGl46L669YUQlp2yljBSsJOUqIkwpOC0jQkK1KcE+uWH592aqQRC47FiALB Mf4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xutex0d9LE3jaXHTqmiwLto2Soo6Ee+ob6B0Sm3TWvY=; b=Y2n5uRD30PTLqclL6A1pn5pZP6xHMIwjkT2nvCSHvnrzwwPophJZ3uSDoKS7w2Na1u 4fxc8oLhWSxsQejE5tqJg/Cyv4ooWBFyvpf8G+pV/lNqUjG4Y+qWO7bBnf5bgcAGW1Ai Su5RSUMjIH32A74NCzmqpHueQe9fkjEqDU1SFgZ5BdVRSos5CXzmbhLnfDdHvuzhxdqw /IJz7EUL/l2ANWbO0XfjBUHbGh9xK6hs3eN+/cY+NuqlcPwxTYqTk6B7GYEXyDSawMCw xKOswx73pCoYn8AJTPJQpoJ87JEZC/sCQlnM/XYKBZobHw40bFpBOoHbujjFT0p3i7j6 gljg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Bru2xp99tAexrCW6zvLzG4s9ywb0afxBjHNFr+zR2p2RSDgWV me6uTBaz5hiEp2aXJHzAlLVBWlHEeAdJyw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwcS+qT11sxTzT4nnKAEoxCPXrg62DsJ29zWxZzmW1/c3bFyQNsH2/HbKTuysBLOSR56OwqBA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4c0e:: with SMTP id z14mr7682577pga.427.1633290515693; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 12:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gn11sm10850519pjb.36.2021.10.03.12.48.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 12:48:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:48:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 19:48:44 -0000 On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: > Again, no hats.=C2=A0 This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 > "stream head" is. Yes, this is has the benefit of a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is fil= led ASAP. Brian >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the RSAB=20 should not be able to act with unfilled places. >> >> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that had=20 negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s d= elegate was unappointed. >> >> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >> >> Let=E2=80=99s change >> OLD >> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >> >> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the IES= G >> >> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >> >> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the IRT= F >> Chair >> >> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >> >> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >> NEW >> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >> >> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >> >> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >> >> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Ch= air >> >> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >> >> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >> END >> >> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the 'major' = streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is automatically f= illed. >> >> Our only risks become: >> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful c= ompletion >> >> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense w= ith language about vacancies. >> >> Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> >> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot L= ear >> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >> To: Brian E Carpenter >> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >> >> Hi again with no hats, >> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and tha= t >> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, that= 's >> 3), >> not a majority of the active membership, are required to approve= >> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >> >> >> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >> >> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, on=20 the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood alon= e in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on these do= cuments is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months shouldn't ca= use substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a stream to ste= p on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional filibustering.=20 Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown to = actually work. >> Eliot >> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Oct 3 13:06:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C673A0BC9 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VWvLYqqLmG_K for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B69A3A0BCA for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 193K6BS9003799; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:06:11 +0100 Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062514604B; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:06:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0934604A; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:06:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:06:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 193K69nW022147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:06:10 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Eliot Lear'" , References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:06:09 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBfkY5FQF4u/JtAdX8DOoCA+r0KAHCph/pAbSN33uqQDogAA== X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26446.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--7.245-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--7.245-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26446.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--7.244900-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: /77LoUQXvQ9Tx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtPJb7oABYhT/Z0/3KlJ7593tc SBXe4RfN4or730UqvzF855rC+i/R2qRbXHIdbO2R/ALIg2sSOGshWkbP9T5LSETsow89Q1HTLOs wwXcIS0diaViLATk6nUQ9bePLcwQ/CpFKBhYcru69aCjRXbFtxdZnNOazoZ6S5NZMkA6RI/BNTS djDfpz5M/WF3RkwdIDPdx6dx7fnmSLzV7yg8CrQFFSD47VOxuSEqfa6mOo3hJWm0JlHAu9AdSQT pqfjTvZPsj5qjS+dCHcL6ACd2BGu06s39pBhMvsvmT2VURehlq+PlVZvoI2ZbwxqSK0GSPR7ypO /VC82O648Rngb/mZN+085wUDvKVHt+SfyWp7ahqCr5xa2StlIZoiESsm3R0s20T6r1ucZq2WdBH /3sZjnXBigRrLAfozudZcHG6m0rLObMBuSZ/JLhwu4QM/6CpyjHhXj1NLbjAXR19nmRX2XzFjPe JY99m0Opu4Ilqu/lx+dQFWO5SvQJ1cY0oJjyIpHPYwOJi6PLlb0MaM9Tuszw5SzgJNSArL534Gn G2W+fhAOI+mos+uQUk3vyrnPE8KeNbTbNb6myoLwUwfdPoXvqm9/6ObPjnDS9iBl6UpukMWPO8/ JEnOWQV1uwb6J5fHC24oEZ6SpSkgbhiVsIMQKx7KERNgzExGPpRs3CO6NcCRkOOeTQscVlrQieV Sy6dALRF3/t85J1+kBbKvJ1UoPqy6LtPxm0l1eyxaEA26yAaZ6GKs6A5/fB3esbweG9qwkc8vZY cPwmShurVaY1hyX4xdVwkeE3a3UyOqrFz2uoh+3BndfXUhXQ== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:06:22 -0000 Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" = instead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these = out as... The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate o The RFC Series Consulting Editor Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Brian E Carpenter =20 Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: > Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 > "stream head" is. Yes, this is has the benefit of a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is = filled ASAP. Brian >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB=20 should not be able to act with unfilled places. >> >> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that = had=20 negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s = delegate was unappointed. >> >> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >> >> Let=E2=80=99s change >> OLD >> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >> >> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the = IESG >> >> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >> >> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the = IRTF >> Chair >> >> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >> >> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >> NEW >> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >> >> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >> >> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >> >> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >> >> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >> >> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >> END >> >> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the 'major' = streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is automatically = filled. >> >> Our only risks become: >> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful = completion >> >> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense = with language about vacancies. >> >> Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> >> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear >> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >> To: Brian E Carpenter >> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >> >> Hi again with no hats, >> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that >> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, = that's >> 3), >> not a majority of the active membership, are required to = approve >> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >> >> >> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >> >> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, = on=20 the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering.=20 Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown to = actually work. >> Eliot >> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Oct 3 13:09:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036393A0BCC for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:09:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1bCICSDoO9-8 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227453A0BCA for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id s20so17899326ioa.4 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 13:09:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qSp7fZUZ2REeTDNbBLqwWRr/6Xml8unQaGUdXosbA1I=; b=Es3zHX0MIChr6694is4pXtPBJKEuNNqYA+Dj4/GDFjN1M8F/TGYivsS+zV3iqLn6NA SqQoMvzbkRHh0GtYQzcL6qfMi9glytzMoj/qsJMIfTF2TN0dHTD29edAaMnNgkYFzkAD fjo7AADNjJ3MiMbBz0KGHxVYHem7GbloQJ/iY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qSp7fZUZ2REeTDNbBLqwWRr/6Xml8unQaGUdXosbA1I=; b=MqOL8pVcdsbM/KCn7TtIUguZVAGAyYZxy6lQs11SHASeciVKEm2cld/ppIOHCMhsZK A4FoIcWOqfqkdisvW8fJIYwGYjczxLH/Et3CIi41wI5Prjw1GAfEjkC9Wq03vBy9PFr/ 8C1S34KspR4d9ya7lZ6S0Uen8VC7H7/OUeg6UaSo8AsP97ZYo0MYZVFg+A3KS3OKVNln PQP818vlHyw/sgmsz7xm1BhnZ/1YRpBca86aofPMLPYsHiRr/5BHK8QvfTlaQ6ePzrei dHDQCLm9MujuTDwWx6m7XmjbjANAI08wLdqOu3tmQWgtts9At8CNFw2SoVkdyE2uBN6v U7Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Q5XZkWn6P+mjaAzZqdo96FO+Ce80CiER+oAmhLjaDSaTsTyVr mmorHB6Q8rgJihhPxerVh0lcRg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1x5dpoRDzrwU8RGBhmsY+aUcHs9BlZIm30XYJlbf8TJSTMzQDBlx1d6LCf68JzCnJgx6sHw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c5c1:: with SMTP id v184mr6667339iof.148.1633291755862; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 13:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y30sm8238572iox.54.2021.10.03.13.09.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 13:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:09:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:09:26 -0000 On 10/3/21 3:39 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Again, no hats.  This is fine with me, +1 > so long as we define what a > "stream head" is. Is a "stream head" the same as a "stream manager"? Although see also https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/10z-2RgRU1CN0-7U9wP58PFhFQY/ (where we uncovered some confusion about the identities of the stream managers). Peter From nobody Sun Oct 3 13:11:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F46B3A0BD3 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:11:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQUa0v-ebzpI for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 398723A0BCC for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 193KBavs020906; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:11:36 +0100 Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDAB4604A; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:11:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20E646043; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:11:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:11:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 193KBVP5025455 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:11:35 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Peter Saint-Andre'" , "'Eliot Lear'" , References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:11:31 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <006c01d7b892$dd5aa440$980fecc0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBfkY5FQF4u/JtAdX8DOoCA+r0KAHCph/pAaM31/SqQMbDwA== X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26446.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.723-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--4.723-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26446.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--4.723100-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: nVQUmLJJeyZTx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtUd7Bjfo+5jTw9qL6KtqraOnY eJFi2U8R5weFaeSd+NZNhLl88xPkFLa2Vh2jQ2eE5Qo03mEdwAEV1S2gR4w1GuTWTJAOkSPwTU0 nYw36c+QG5e4gGSjCb6zwkG10qSwISR9dTjlQdMmeAiCmPx4NwJNiK8T6rXI23n8eBZjGmUzkwj HXXC/4I+JGF26G8SWybcMfqeX8eudDSl95QD6a9dqDzcU+kLMQ1abIXPA9qfuxzYU9tVrzN9+UH mtV6ua+msC8UAqTCCVG+khCQVBXhbJ+yStLJWPaG1KP1W3Vnzf0eYCwzXW/S7jmaMoghhjfGIJp 31oEpZ+b2n9EL31MnkuFvzEYSdV+ X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:11:46 -0000 Yeah, I meant "stream manager" -----Original Message----- From: Peter Saint-Andre =20 Sent: 03 October 2021 21:09 To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum On 10/3/21 3:39 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Again, no hats. This is fine with me, +1 > so long as we define what a=20 > "stream head" is. Is a "stream head" the same as a "stream manager"? Although see also=20 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/10z-2RgRU1CN0-7U9wP58P= FhFQY/=20 (where we uncovered some confusion about the identities of the stream=20 managers). Peter From nobody Sun Oct 3 14:18:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82C23A0C74 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:18:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oaYcpzP-4YCo for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 956A53A0C6F for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852824112A5A; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efnv3n46VSQz; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1F574112A55; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:17:56 +1300 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 21:18:13 -0000 > On 4/10/2021, at 9:06 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >=20 > That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" = instead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these = out as... >=20 > The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >=20 > o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >=20 > o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >=20 > o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >=20 > o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >=20 > o The RFC Series Consulting Editor It would be useful to plan for the situation where we don=E2=80=99t have = an RSCE and don=E2=80=99t expect to have one for an extended period = (e.g. illness, someone leaving and a new recruitment needed, someone = leaving and a process similar to this being followed). If we follow the = text, the LLC could appoint someone quickly and on a short term contract = as the RSCE and fulfil this requirement. Is that what people are = expecting, does that cover every situation and is everyone comfortable = with that, or does this need to be specifically called out as say "The = RFC Series Consulting Editor or an interim replacement appointed by the = IETF LLC if the RSCE is indisposed or the position is vacant"? Jay >=20 >=20 >=20 > Adrian >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter =20 > Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 > To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; = rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >=20 > On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 >=20 >> "stream head" is. >=20 > Yes, this is has the benefit of > a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. > b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs > c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is = filled ASAP. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB=20 > should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>=20 >>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that = had=20 > negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s = delegate was unappointed. >>>=20 >>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>> OLD >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the = IESG >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the = IRTF >>> Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> NEW >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>=20 >>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> END >>>=20 >>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the = 'major' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is = automatically filled. >>>=20 >>> Our only risks become: >>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful = completion >>>=20 >>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense = with language about vacancies. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Adrian >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear >>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>=20 >>> Hi again with no hats, >>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that >>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, = that's >>> 3), >>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to = approve >>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>=20 >>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, = on=20 > the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering.=20 > Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown = to actually work. >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Oct 3 14:28:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1123A0C80; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bBfxvOizA9Ef; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA4813A0C7D; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 193LShAU023216; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:28:43 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04AA4604B; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:28:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D436046048; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:28:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:28:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 193LSfDr006991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:28:42 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Jay Daley'" Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Eliot Lear'" , References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:28:40 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <007801d7b89d$a34c93c0$e9e5bb40$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBfkY5FQF4u/JtAdX8DOoCA+r0KAHCph/pAbSN33sB8eOTngJb9kHVqh3jFHA= X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26446.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--10.909-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--10.909-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26446.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--10.909100-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pS5owHKhBO1Tx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtUd7Bjfo+5jSVo7kG88O3N54f tjuEhJeCYmlYiwE5Op1EPW3jy3MEPwqRSgYWHK7uvWgo0V2xbcUL8TGleseLPE9CJC/MWIZ4KVy DrOY54EZmA4cul4jxGUgEM42JoyIBHVikQ9YmLLOvJmjb249RXuAeEI3tbHhVCHbFB9H131FNaD aUbTCJs8kaKsCqTinCRdJL/r0DpgCve0RnhHR5vgrcxrzwsv5uYwufqrwpzH5LxCuBTCXaKjjtl SOgLAjyh8TydxfjFvyqBtKZYXGLol7bBp0oAOqqRU4X3Mu13Iwgxk+qFPYkG1IXyetjnDi+GDm/ IXSui1fqVJXx9o72Kz3cence355ki81e8oPAq0BRUg+O1TsbkhKn2upjqN4SVptCZRwLvQHUkE6 an4072T7I+ao0vnQh9ZrLK24d0u+hmj3mg7kbBdKhw1CGAxrIeLLCA0PD7ahD9TjIkdq47gb+rM pDx3kbtg17b78hT8CBpKS5iQnDuslzWXOFZwL6yhPaAPXFzs0IJ2rqTcuYdrdx4MkwEPowDl02C 8nv7tswP/xMcf9KkyQbn6htrz5033y2DTfklpBZNYSHk3Zr0UGaUEX8gnR8sLigDA/FpvU9f7mQ 7xYc42sRPSp/FWsqMiQ6ATUElfbTyr0pKxS1V5yBsp6+TmyGDqdsP48ZEpRSLGtfS+jLnAdK5L9 5OqFRv15rOqckHBv8fJ+JFuyARcnAiSMb8Y6cdPM8veyrICZnijJvJwoZJuCbuVI7hVbLhmPNhz YtFr7MRtvWdK5rzIb2XPUJmitUfBaDDLNoFTUrN8z0HohG3voLR4+zsDTthUfR2rvBju4NfBgKF gBNr16JXpOCiW80/qxM5hQuFzpATX6xwTnBcQQV6lffpK00 X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 21:28:53 -0000 wfm -----Original Message----- From: Jay Daley =20 Sent: 03 October 2021 22:18 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Eliot Lear = ; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum > On 4/10/2021, at 9:06 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >=20 > That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" = instead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these = out as... >=20 > The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >=20 > o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >=20 > o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >=20 > o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >=20 > o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >=20 > o The RFC Series Consulting Editor It would be useful to plan for the situation where we don=E2=80=99t have = an RSCE and don=E2=80=99t expect to have one for an extended period = (e.g. illness, someone leaving and a new recruitment needed, someone = leaving and a process similar to this being followed). If we follow the = text, the LLC could appoint someone quickly and on a short term contract = as the RSCE and fulfil this requirement. Is that what people are = expecting, does that cover every situation and is everyone comfortable = with that, or does this need to be specifically called out as say "The = RFC Series Consulting Editor or an interim replacement appointed by the = IETF LLC if the RSCE is indisposed or the position is vacant"? Jay >=20 >=20 >=20 > Adrian >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter =20 > Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 > To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; = rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >=20 > On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 >=20 >> "stream head" is. >=20 > Yes, this is has the benefit of > a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. > b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs > c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is = filled ASAP. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB=20 > should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>=20 >>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that = had=20 > negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream = Head=E2=80=99s delegate was unappointed. >>>=20 >>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>> OLD >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the = IESG >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the = IRTF >>> Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> NEW >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>=20 >>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> END >>>=20 >>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the = 'major' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is = automatically filled. >>>=20 >>> Our only risks become: >>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful = completion >>>=20 >>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense = with language about vacancies. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Adrian >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear >>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>=20 >>> Hi again with no hats, >>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that >>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, = that's >>> 3), >>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to = approve >>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>=20 >>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, = on=20 > the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering.=20 > Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown = to actually work. >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Oct 3 15:35:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1333A0CD5 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 15:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TczYjnXk1tIf for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 15:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C7203A0CD4 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 15:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id g13-20020a17090a3c8d00b00196286963b9so1380084pjc.3 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 15:34:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ndvLtm6TD48bLrcQpvGYT/aVaggkBWz+0ZEqSnR4pws=; b=XUW2zZ3ahzaRkNg2JWcvjTosCerIFduJBUT0sXmGQECOTnzv+ZhA/qNIR7arRbyo8R yMaNRi/d0WT8iqMR8phMSrwP72dmnir8115SNAhOCA8vi3xXrPhNkGdQAq31M3uzNsp6 GX0QPafs3R7mjw2guhIOwgvLz8ZAopgq6ajDq/Ky0cBOOCdaL+AIuRyJzlz4JOFAORsn SdWoOkoGrdcB9nDFomSxr4bbwe6dm7w0em03KV5WYZLO49Ww8soBIHeRDED/srNh7oVf 1pchzhLRyTADyyJzjtvpW9RsWij8T1wmH4iSnbmEJGZynhcAarNEqdC64bLkmM0UQ1nA xPpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ndvLtm6TD48bLrcQpvGYT/aVaggkBWz+0ZEqSnR4pws=; b=Ev8g68Xw+EoNiWlMLA0/1nxQTQ/rTTN9WH7sQhBj/qfRJvGSdLpDWe/r8ixBo9Hsem 1BGq6/+gT+0UOb/fdthdt+9TS/S89AiU152SIu8xhBGgipbSkRvAp/gxGUPyeP2LxpeW DW45aK5sknz6/qIqsgbVTKG8wpmNCmRVowbVveXOlHNuCbYZSAeZ2lSF2TIPrp1dIK51 X1a9Wa3LkqVKDNsQWQjvuwmmzszwjd/2tqF/a6TKhpFHarisfabH41E+U3ASa6J0J2nn H0uVRukBPrw7lkdjYbLNV4P4s0f6ijSRFZUjl1TVgqS7di67b8nkSCOd7hOPGi4gVhcR iQfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iDcbm04crL6XuKRQJuYOk5v98GxNGvggJQChNLBHN7hPluao2 KM3ktFHC542u1XMqRfXv32RivlCMb6N7ig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkgqj4OrFEUw/sqhJc5e91ycA1nF+dkCFxA1wtzibezuKAwWn3m9V2gxlSKB8QwPwBP4fUcA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:dad2:b0:13c:a6ce:faea with SMTP id q18-20020a170902dad200b0013ca6cefaeamr21350039plx.45.1633300496703; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 15:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k127sm12278117pfd.1.2021.10.03.15.34.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 15:34:56 -0700 (PDT) To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'Jay Daley' Cc: 'Eliot Lear' , rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> <007801d7b89d$a34c93c0$e9e5bb40$@olddog.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8938875b-7239-b67b-ca06-eba743030987@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:34:51 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <007801d7b89d$a34c93c0$e9e5bb40$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 22:35:04 -0000 Ditto. Over-specifying is never going to cover everything, so I think we = should leave it at that. Brian On 04-Oct-21 10:28, Adrian Farrel wrote: > wfm >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Daley =20 > Sent: 03 October 2021 22:18 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Eliot Lear ; rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 4/10/2021, at 9:06 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> >> Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >> >> That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" ins= tead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these out = as... >> >> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >> >> o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >> >> o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >> >> o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >> >> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >> >> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >=20 > It would be useful to plan for the situation where we don=E2=80=99t hav= e an RSCE and don=E2=80=99t expect to have one for an extended period (e.= g. illness, someone leaving and a new recruitment needed, someone leaving=20 and a process similar to this being followed). If we follow the text, th= e LLC could appoint someone quickly and on a short term contract as the R= SCE and fulfil this requirement. Is that what people are expecting, does=20 that cover every situation and is everyone comfortable with that, or does=20 this need to be specifically called out as say "The RFC Series Consulting=20 Editor or an interim replacement appointed by the IETF LLC if the RSCE is=20 indisposed or the position is vacant"? >=20 > Jay >=20 >> >> >> >> Adrian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter =20 >> Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 >> To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab.o= rg >> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >> >> On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 >> >>> "stream head" is. >> >> Yes, this is has the benefit of >> a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. >> b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs >> c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is = filled ASAP. >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> Eliot >>> >>> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the RS= AB=20 >> should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>> >>>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that h= ad=20 >> negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99= s delegate was unappointed. >>>> >>>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>> >>>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>>> OLD >>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>> >>>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the IE= SG >>>> >>>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB= >>>> >>>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the IR= TF >>>> Chair >>>> >>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>> >>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>> NEW >>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>> >>>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>> >>>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>> >>>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF C= hair >>>> >>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>> >>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>> END >>>> >>>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the 'major= ' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is automatically=20 filled. >>>> >>>> Our only risks become: >>>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >>>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful=20 completion >>>> >>>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense=20 with language about vacancies. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Adrian >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot=20 Lear >>>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>> >>>> Hi again with no hats, >>>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and t= hat >>>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, tha= t's >>>> 3), >>>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to approv= e >>>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be= >>>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>> >>>> >>>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>> >>>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, = on=20 >> the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood a= lone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on these=20 documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months shouldn't = cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a stream to s= tep on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional filibusterin= g.=20 >> Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown t= o actually work. >>>> Eliot >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Sun Oct 3 16:05:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756C63A0CF6 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:04:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Kw2BafzH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nAnNaTNJ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R0-gaBL0pb3Q for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E61953A0CF2 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263803200B58; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 19:04:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=F S59g5hK0Pe44FNa1kiEiQd60ng70yH+p/6BQZlgcJY=; b=Kw2BafzH4DmitF480 WMtUUBgsRSVm7lf+dtju+55Yo03CAge3BgSO0D9kLEAtjhoJVePNA2sS8CokeKCt 3WBiPT+2zIVmSDXXLsydsQRzt6WhnKWUOqcNOitS+tDn+e3NKEy7jMRC2WqUixmS boKEx56mtjDp11Fk9DQIdslo3603+mky9ad5Dy6gWv7jGwuAhU1Xsq240qhCpKzV NzhE/2+GG4cVqtcDbRQ9DIDYw+cH6NcQ0HW0xzCIAyrdrIOIzNhnfwStDQ/IMHRZ XC7f8Yb8qLT/8n9tYQlAbd5i1Lg+kDJgnmigW+xiNXUthqnzoIGRBcS3rISgyEm3 3QM5w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=FS59g5hK0Pe44FNa1kiEiQd60ng70yH+p/6BQZlgc JY=; b=nAnNaTNJ41kz11n9M8eoA6Gv6loImKRPqV0J1cHvwLlcPqwuljpe3pKXj z5uHsTngnBR9qebzzn2kMYGuk50bknLpoGCRAj5M4U3CMhG4cTfIXWIwD1Ma9xnq X+rqe2w769CMLTM9Vl58YZn7C34CBEdPOIE4SegrSfwdjO9LooWdj1a1z6tHmxJi Oplv6aHJs5Z+CfGdDs6BPngFnC5YM5vy28D6OIzGceKuXlvkkmtx8ayHX8NS2PDT powzbbY56D3JHGoGIKMcjlMjmP1/tZeLsl/tBEFRV5mBI48W8cABBHcz9pC+hvRv 0IdrE6J1GeG75/6SbMvfI4XM7Ni+g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeluddgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeehjefgtedtveettdehjeekteevgedtvdfgieetlefhtdeihefgueejjefhveef tdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnh hothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:04:34 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 23:04:53 -0000 That seems reasonable, but it's more than possible that a temporary = recruit can't be found quickly, or there are other circumstances that = make this impractical.=20 AIUI the main issue that the forced delay is trying to address is stream = representation, which isn't a problem when the RSCE is temporarily = absent. So if we're going to have language that forced a delay upon = absence (and I share Mike's discomfort with baking this into the = document), we should consider qualifying that in the case of the RSCE. = Otherwise, we might find ourselves in a situation where the community = wants to do something, the stream managers all agree, but we can't do it = because we're temporarily missing an RSCE. Cheers, > On 4 Oct 2021, at 8:17 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 4/10/2021, at 9:06 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>=20 >> Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >>=20 >> That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" = instead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these = out as... >>=20 >> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>=20 >> o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>=20 >> o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>=20 >> o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >>=20 >> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >>=20 >> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >=20 > It would be useful to plan for the situation where we don=E2=80=99t = have an RSCE and don=E2=80=99t expect to have one for an extended period = (e.g. illness, someone leaving and a new recruitment needed, someone = leaving and a process similar to this being followed). If we follow the = text, the LLC could appoint someone quickly and on a short term contract = as the RSCE and fulfil this requirement. Is that what people are = expecting, does that cover every situation and is everyone comfortable = with that, or does this need to be specifically called out as say "The = RFC Series Consulting Editor or an interim replacement appointed by the = IETF LLC if the RSCE is indisposed or the position is vacant"? >=20 > Jay >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Adrian >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter =20 >> Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 >> To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; = rfced-future@iab.org >> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>=20 >> On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20= >>=20 >>> "stream head" is. >>=20 >> Yes, this is has the benefit of >> a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. >> b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs >> c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is = filled ASAP. >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB=20 >> should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>>=20 >>>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that = had=20 >> negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s= delegate was unappointed. >>>>=20 >>>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>>=20 >>>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>>> OLD >>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>>=20 >>>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the = IESG >>>>=20 >>>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >>>>=20 >>>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the = IRTF >>>> Chair >>>>=20 >>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>>=20 >>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>> NEW >>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>>=20 >>>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>>=20 >>>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>>=20 >>>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >>>>=20 >>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>>=20 >>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>> END >>>>=20 >>>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the = 'major' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is = automatically filled. >>>>=20 >>>> Our only risks become: >>>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >>>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to = successful completion >>>>=20 >>>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can = dispense with language about vacancies. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Adrian >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of = Eliot Lear >>>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>>=20 >>>> Hi again with no hats, >>>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that >>>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, = that's >>>> 3), >>>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to = approve >>>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >>>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>>=20 >>>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, = on=20 >> the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering.=20 >> Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown = to actually work. >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Oct 3 16:12:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2693A0D0B for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:12:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pXBEaaHdYu3M for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63F343A0D02 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505E34112A49; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yZRQFi-tzcSD; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6AC244112A40; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:11:49 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 23:12:08 -0000 > On 4/10/2021, at 12:04 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > That seems reasonable, but it's more than possible that a temporary = recruit can't be found quickly, or there are other circumstances that = make this impractical.=20 >=20 > AIUI the main issue that the forced delay is trying to address is = stream representation, which isn't a problem when the RSCE is = temporarily absent. So if we're going to have language that forced a = delay upon absence (and I share Mike's discomfort with baking this into = the document), we should consider qualifying that in the case of the = RSCE. Otherwise, we might find ourselves in a situation where the = community wants to do something, the stream managers all agree, but we = can't do it because we're temporarily missing an RSCE. I agree and I prefer that - The RSAB should be able to continue without = an RSCE. Jay >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 4 Oct 2021, at 8:17 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 4/10/2021, at 9:06 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>>=20 >>> Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >>>=20 >>> That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" = instead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these = out as... >>>=20 >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>=20 >>> o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>=20 >> It would be useful to plan for the situation where we don=E2=80=99t = have an RSCE and don=E2=80=99t expect to have one for an extended period = (e.g. illness, someone leaving and a new recruitment needed, someone = leaving and a process similar to this being followed). If we follow the = text, the LLC could appoint someone quickly and on a short term contract = as the RSCE and fulfil this requirement. Is that what people are = expecting, does that cover every situation and is everyone comfortable = with that, or does this need to be specifically called out as say "The = RFC Series Consulting Editor or an interim replacement appointed by the = IETF LLC if the RSCE is indisposed or the position is vacant"? >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Adrian >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Brian E Carpenter =20 >>> Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 >>> To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; = rfced-future@iab.org >>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>=20 >>> On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20= >>>=20 >>>> "stream head" is. >>>=20 >>> Yes, this is has the benefit of >>> a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. >>> b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs >>> c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy = is filled ASAP. >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>>>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB=20 >>> should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>>>=20 >>>>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that = had=20 >>> negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99= s delegate was unappointed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>>>> OLD >>>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>>>=20 >>>>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the = IESG >>>>>=20 >>>>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >>>>>=20 >>>>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the = IRTF >>>>> Chair >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>>> NEW >>>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>>>=20 >>>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>>> END >>>>>=20 >>>>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the = 'major' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is = automatically filled. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Our only risks become: >>>>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger = problems!) >>>>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>>>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to = successful completion >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can = dispense with language about vacancies. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Adrian >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of = Eliot Lear >>>>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>>>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi again with no hats, >>>>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that >>>>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, = that's >>>>> 3), >>>>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to = approve >>>>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >>>>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>>>=20 >>>>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: = first, on=20 >>> the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering.=20 >>> Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown = to actually work. >>>>> Eliot >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Oct 3 16:54:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B518F3A0D79 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:54:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BMRueM4d_n78 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A84AB3A0D73 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id q205so18247575iod.8 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HAL7fr9nwRlvuLduTu5bw/2eTzwQH/XjbG0yDxyHD7s=; b=TE/SkvzUkoh1MwwNj3PXgDhK5Km7VCBcNiKmoUoqQULVyJbLfjKzITYvCUgbcbOjKN E9BWLC3Mw+7mvcbBQwUTP9hmi/QncNOfmeXOEpBfgfK6oeQbGdkoUFGk5C7TJb5GPOAh xT5dwJr7RxLd6p7S9pCU36FKMjUxK4ETUmdtE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HAL7fr9nwRlvuLduTu5bw/2eTzwQH/XjbG0yDxyHD7s=; b=nm17FAvUJLouBIIct89gUxph/ETCkxPi2JUrBAvMxC527T+F+2laXmOLmgmR0r75Hz Yg4SR3MZMum0YxfrUVezlabYaaSfT7NvHNF78xvrvs8itpcu4+MX34MKKf8I80W1slFR nYkVlKAG0xVOWdq+imTHwgrauGgJE9vFIxDE6nEmALhMUvOlFXF7a4xpCZvXF3pWJ3Y9 OtHvEzN0IYWgZAlXnJWF9CLftmiMhyLFpKk0hB8PyLt/q3kOBWSlSd81s/pS17NBT4Jy HpiFnjqtSlcvhX0T7JwBxO8g9sKNMin6iTHRJ8LhrCm/NZRMm461WMYbxbAd2OPBulAp FgDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309OJercvpb56Qeru6CUTJInaXYqpIHAAomP69UKmb++vRs2Y9j eyl9iEWATkh3nuMA4mI26emznw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbctiEp/sYtLXE9TUurzOue6UxY/GgQP6WWSC1IOsjjFl02hU6MKbFS/NV3dm0ONOioD1yew== X-Received: by 2002:a02:cc05:: with SMTP id n5mr3189680jap.143.1633305244703; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 16:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z5sm7844593ile.42.2021.10.03.16.54.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 16:54:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Jay Daley , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:53:59 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 23:54:11 -0000 On 10/3/21 5:11 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 4/10/2021, at 12:04 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> That seems reasonable, but it's more than possible that a temporary recruit can't be found quickly, or there are other circumstances that make this impractical. >> >> AIUI the main issue that the forced delay is trying to address is stream representation, which isn't a problem when the RSCE is temporarily absent. So if we're going to have language that forced a delay upon absence (and I share Mike's discomfort with baking this into the document), we should consider qualifying that in the case of the RSCE. Otherwise, we might find ourselves in a situation where the community wants to do something, the stream managers all agree, but we can't do it because we're temporarily missing an RSCE. > > I agree and I prefer that - The RSAB should be able to continue without an RSCE. Right. Perhaps that's why Adrian's text said "or delegate" for every voting member except the RSCE. Peter From nobody Sun Oct 3 17:44:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246303A0DC5 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:44:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTaNvxbvzWxv for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E69F03A0DC1 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id c4so9964855pls.6 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 17:44:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HRgwl+StZumrYgY531AXRLoV/fWYfMUenrwjca5aeeA=; b=jx/+vmW2SXETSyOp/UIbs2GgXIjoa67J/Gn3NqLZjdYdzUlAP0RXNO/uvvWsksXnta /htB+djV89jDg5SfAtJx85tjwZCqXTKvFBPdQ0CaPuZDpa7uE27pvFZEk7Ro2pV8ISh1 S2b7kyam43azvPb89CbbtT7eafgW0we/EbgsFy4II7nK2irecE0jd+8EhGmH38c9P5tz r0J68FL+p46QAws0/PiIllDdGlHo8tfJ7aQAqIjxAfZnMTUcWBhfyV+ddHgR7t/COOLX Iz7UGyEfuZrNsMYAFILrOQUZmTdfp1EWdcoGqAaklu4piowtSwG1RuNnv0IgQlcjxDOK BTjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HRgwl+StZumrYgY531AXRLoV/fWYfMUenrwjca5aeeA=; b=LyfVGeqPmaXTapbA6LEp8fLjVu4aqL5ZnPPnmYVEq6ozfBzfeDG71ya7kizSMkFFAI EG+pPyY/gMjQZA5KNz0wkYsLYji8UgYBuFak777npzx5f961aljR1GkwLkFzv42gzIQa zc5wksi+m3clXEIZ8HI0mj/bU4RnEd6LDYE89yn1b/O2ciTiDlQAf8O3PhFC68CgLJsU gsSuWPkB5HlbtAGdlcH7rXE10fS2zpzqL2iCuGDwuMtXSh0V11zhxJ4k1s+JxM0heKk3 Hn2azHi4Nydf840Xe02HL+rzf04lZ/fmoKV1Z2775IvnzETpDMY/iCPFLgIBvgSMu7Ac HtNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532/HWP3KRm6h+oNmu8LEzeXXYy5saEhAkm/V/jXJ5SDN2+Q1mXk xHK40mprPPYKIU00X4gZ2DFSNrG/jY1m7Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNvA8tpPHQ9xbkmy2n6jrqLJERZQjUqk5rDpH7lTSqnCGMzVWKYkDzE913yisnOQN0nHu/XQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ed0b:b0:13e:acdb:2528 with SMTP id b11-20020a170902ed0b00b0013eacdb2528mr6609240pld.54.1633308271022; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 17:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s3sm13876900pjr.1.2021.10.03.17.44.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 17:44:30 -0700 (PDT) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:44:26 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 00:44:37 -0000 On 04-Oct-21 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 10/3/21 5:11 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> >>> On 4/10/2021, at 12:04 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> >>> That seems reasonable, but it's more than possible that a temporary recruit can't be found quickly, or there are other circumstances that make this impractical. >>> >>> AIUI the main issue that the forced delay is trying to address is stream representation, which isn't a problem when the RSCE is temporarily absent. So if we're going to have language that forced a delay upon absence (and I share Mike's discomfort with baking this into the document), we should consider qualifying that in the case of the RSCE. Otherwise, we might find ourselves in a situation where the community wants to do something, the stream managers all agree, but we can't do it because we're temporarily missing an RSCE. >> >> I agree and I prefer that - The RSAB should be able to continue without an RSCE. > > Right. Perhaps that's why Adrian's text said "or delegate" for every > voting member except the RSCE. Exactly. So for all streams *except* editorial, replacement of the RSAB members is automatic, which will always give at least 4 members. That seems necessary and sufficient. (If something is contentious enough that it doesn't pass, it can never proceed until there is an (acting) RSCE, but is that really a problem?) Brian > > Peter > From nobody Sun Oct 3 21:24:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EFB13A0EE9; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:24:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RTOMyxUbUYc5; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 196503A0EE8; Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9dd3:8dd:199e:1ebe]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1944OboZ275160 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 06:24:37 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633321478; bh=XLsbtMpcXl2gIBpxiBwl/B8zNT8UUyWZ3c6rF7qXywk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=h0PgmhlLVxRgNyKSjwM35ldE3jEzWZJmreAdBgrzekMIh9mr/xdNQpHhjSBU2wzff /LEA0r+uEWVeGKsVUKYWSXw0M3DlpwevyVoOadnRDxXLhEH8ZLXnvYebDiPqy3TXhb uY70hg0VRKEyORz655zC7tOC4Os+cJNuh/KKEUrc= To: Jay Daley , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 06:24:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zPx78v1NaSV9WlXpaa8lFa0LpAYAKGtSA" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 04:24:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --zPx78v1NaSV9WlXpaa8lFa0LpAYAKGtSA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BxEWVYUdurNyDb1QY2EPlgd8P8qjtI1Jt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Jay Daley , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: --BxEWVYUdurNyDb1QY2EPlgd8P8qjtI1Jt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Again, no hats.=C2=A0 I agree with the below. On 04.10.21 01:11, Jay Daley wrote: > >> On 4/10/2021, at 12:04 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> That seems reasonable, but it's more than possible that a temporary re= cruit can't be found quickly, or there are other circumstances that make = this impractical. >> >> AIUI the main issue that the forced delay is trying to address is stre= am representation, which isn't a problem when the RSCE is temporarily abs= ent. So if we're going to have language that forced a delay upon absence = (and I share Mike's discomfort with baking this into the document), we sh= ould consider qualifying that in the case of the RSCE. Otherwise, we migh= t find ourselves in a situation where the community wants to do something= , the stream managers all agree, but we can't do it because we're tempora= rily missing an RSCE. > I agree and I prefer that - The RSAB should be able to continue without= an RSCE. > > Jay > >> Cheers, >> >> >> >>> On 4 Oct 2021, at 8:17 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 4/10/2021, at 9:06 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:= >>>> >>>> Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >>>> >>>> That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" i= nstead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these ou= t as... >>>> >>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>> >>>> o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>> >>>> o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>> >>>> o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >>>> >>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >>>> >>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> It would be useful to plan for the situation where we don=E2=80=99t h= ave an RSCE and don=E2=80=99t expect to have one for an extended period (= e.g. illness, someone leaving and a new recruitment needed, someone leavi= ng and a process similar to this being followed). If we follow the text,= the LLC could appoint someone quickly and on a short term contract as th= e RSCE and fulfil this requirement. Is that what people are expecting, d= oes that cover every situation and is everyone comfortable with that, or = does this need to be specifically called out as say "The RFC Series Consu= lting Editor or an interim replacement appointed by the IETF LLC if the R= SCE is indisposed or the position is vacant"? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Adrian >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Brian E Carpenter >>>> Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 >>>> To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab= =2Eorg >>>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>> >>>> On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a >>>>> "stream head" is. >>>> Yes, this is has the benefit of >>>> a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. >>>> b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs >>>> c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy i= s filled ASAP. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> Eliot >>>>> >>>>> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>>>>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB >>>> should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>>>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that= had >>>> negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99= s delegate was unappointed. >>>>>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>>>> >>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>>>>> OLD >>>>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>>>> >>>>>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the I= ESG >>>>>> >>>>>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IA= B >>>>>> >>>>>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the I= RTF >>>>>> Chair >>>>>> >>>>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>>>> >>>>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>>>> NEW >>>>>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>>>> >>>>>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>>>> >>>>>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>>>> >>>>>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >>>>>> >>>>>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>>>> >>>>>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>>>>> END >>>>>> >>>>>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the 'maj= or' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is automatical= ly filled. >>>>>> >>>>>> Our only risks become: >>>>>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!= ) >>>>>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>>>>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successf= ul completion >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispen= se with language about vacancies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Adrian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eli= ot Lear >>>>>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>>>>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi again with no hats, >>>>>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and= that >>>>>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, th= at's >>>>>> 3), >>>>>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to appro= ve >>>>>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can b= e >>>>>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>>>> >>>>>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first= , on >>>> the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood= alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on the= se documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months shouldn= 't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a stream t= o step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional filibuste= ring. >>>> Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown= to actually work. >>>>>> Eliot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> --=20 >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director >>> exec-director@ietf.org >>> >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> --BxEWVYUdurNyDb1QY2EPlgd8P8qjtI1Jt-- --zPx78v1NaSV9WlXpaa8lFa0LpAYAKGtSA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFaggIFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOw jwf/Qj4JZfhnSpofxR1IBtuwgPtLw4w89YEmSDeRfia+noLdh/Aj6W85Ejk0FRYYgykER+pT/BHe 37p/OAEF8GlDdK/+8kr2W1XUqNq+Ol3qskrRuP16FKWE6kgx7zfTpOp50AQ0WgrZ2IBb8yDQ0hMq E2oOKOFMfAMi97b2p7Cl+fFHDnwJtfqFY/8ACxaTSi7J9D/PrL5T+xNHsIDS8cJTKcagLpQH2VXR wcgoTG4Ee7RkeT/hPcUoXA5T9NDCItGz+xtuFyi2sduZVtzhH7mipEKS1SQObHfuaP7rN8mSm/5C pHrM9inamaD1Fl9sw0nSZCWntklgrzyh2JDqQ219iw== =YeoM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zPx78v1NaSV9WlXpaa8lFa0LpAYAKGtSA-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 07:49:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16FD3A085A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JzNXwH5nhssC for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E0C63A0848 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:49:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=dfNXuBQk3wrG/xWLhkY96hk5dzc0zX9nbvaNP8wTf1I=; b=wt/9d2q8LDiWGDilArEA5+nKXd A8QLC33DbT4rvW4PM0e827fKRsZFSNBBmXzsFDC9Hu3W7Yd/6t9oWgsfvo25dC91aahcvmqvmBn6+ WDx+L7m8UtR14+sYuiTtL8pI3vp4IhYVgHKS93jupI8rLjN9TtVLlTSgZlILo1nAeZq1BEl3yq9JG 256gagD6RUAU0d4wdX+dcyi2oZXK+sxEl315FCSDynyYX5mwSdIZPRDMIcWta6S0oXccS4CrfrGAw k4ifhE+EbhVOes+AA+lJo8TBukjU8wTGchHeGhaZoq0YfCpSQJYJCZDj2NhaeLl41aps4xIGfVbxR gpfbIPBg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=36781 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXPHF-0003MJ-Pr; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:49:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:49:05 +0100 Cc: Brian Rosen , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 14:49:23 -0000 > On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >> Someone want to suggest text? >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >=20 > ### >=20 > In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >=20 > * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by > the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have > been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that = urgent, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come = to a decision that quickly. I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream in = this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn=E2=80=99t get to approve = documents, even if that takes several months to make an appointment. = Things might break if it approves something without a check from a = particular stream. Colin From nobody Mon Oct 4 08:02:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A503A0890 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id omZVMc-XC4a8 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9EBB3A088D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:02:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=ZVOxiSCfuAs2k781qfVtqcGbXhuf1pWT8fylmJ5DZYQ=; b=t11yi9kxC/qdstwccfy2DWIxT9 G5erdXA2MvzISsDh2IhhdFzQpIgPMW5hp+AT7eUrzVtjK9IWWr03XeT//6SNn4mSX8LMHHrWBOV2Q qOcbzMmTNMjwqTRASJOJCZMLefZkrbsjsxNWOed6GUMIuJSQ9DhfmUpQqLZUydgRkPZuj2QO/4SIX NEK+A/APDEopCjR2GCxF2/aoaEZbCpNyIcFikYs8i8fSARHt2UjUHj310TrOGdsejM27IQlW1GIxQ n1XXwYES2eZTLUdWzUIyk/zTIvnI3Kro5r+jIEv6+XF/70WHXzzrvMNmdXiT9NkR3ZxLxHwHXjdJQ How+IcQQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=32936 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXPU8-0000vK-AM; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 16:02:32 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:02:30 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:02:40 -0000 How does this help? The risk is that, e.g., the IRTF chair or ISE disappears without naming = a delegate. We want to avoid the RSAB accidentally approving a document = detrimental to that stream while a replacement is chosen, which may take = time.=20 Colin > On 3 Oct 2021, at 21:06, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > Well, of course, I thought this would be in 8729, but "ouch". >=20 > That means we have to use "the responsible person for each stream" = instead of stream head. I think we can simply and explicitly call these = out as... >=20 > The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >=20 > o The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG >=20 > o The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB >=20 > o The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair >=20 > o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] or their delegate >=20 > o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >=20 >=20 >=20 > Adrian >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter =20 > Sent: 03 October 2021 20:49 > To: Eliot Lear ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; = rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >=20 > On 03-Oct-21 22:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Again, no hats. This is fine with me, so long as we define what a=20 >=20 >> "stream head" is. >=20 > Yes, this is has the benefit of > a) no need for a quorum rule; the RSAB is always quorate. > b) no need for a delay when a vacancy occurs > c) strong incentive for the "stream head" to ensure that a vacancy is = filled ASAP. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >> On 03.10.21 11:31, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>> I think I was the interfering person who raised the idea that the = RSAB=20 > should not be able to act with unfilled places. >>>=20 >>> My logic was that I would not want the RSAB making a decision that = had=20 > negative impact on the IETF Stream while the IETF Stream Head=E2=80=99s = delegate was unappointed. >>>=20 >>> But there is a way around this=E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> Let=E2=80=99s change >>> OLD >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IETF stream, appointed by the = IESG >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IAB stream, appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o One delegate representing the IRTF stream, appointed by the = IRTF >>> Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> NEW >>> The voting members of the RSAB shall be as follows: >>>=20 >>> o The IETF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IESG >>>=20 >>> o The IAB stream head or their delegate appointed by the IAB >>>=20 >>> o The IRTF stream head or their delegate appointed by the IRTF = Chair >>>=20 >>> o The Independent Submissions Editor [RFC8730] >>>=20 >>> o The RFC Series Consulting Editor >>> END >>>=20 >>> In this way, the failure to appoint a delegate for any of the = 'major' streams defaults back to the stream head, and the post is = automatically filled. >>>=20 >>> Our only risks become: >>> - The IAB fails to appoint an IRTF chair (we have bigger problems!) >>> - The IAB fails to appoint and ISE (we also have bigger problems) >>> - The LLC fails to run the process to appoint the RSCE to successful = completion >>>=20 >>> I suggest, therefore, that, with my proposed change, we can dispense = with language about vacancies. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Adrian >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear >>> Sent: 03 October 2021 09:46 >>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org >>> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >>>=20 >>> Hi again with no hats, >>> On 02.10.21 23:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> My original note suggesting that the RSAB always has a quorum, and = that >>> a majority of the specified membership (e.g. with 5 members, = that's >>> 3), >>> not a majority of the active membership, are required to = approve >>> anything is probably a better approach than "no documents can be >>> approved if the RSAB has any vacancy". >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This approach seems better than potential paralysis. >>>=20 >>> While I largely agree, I suggest compromise for two reasons: first, = on=20 > the call, the consensus was VERY strong to simply stop work: I stood = alone in raising the concern. Second, the average rate of change on = these documents is something like 5 1/2 years. Waiting a few months = shouldn't cause substantial problems, and if it would, I would expect a = stream to step on the gas. I just want us to guard against intentional = filibustering.=20 > Recalls cannot be the answer to that, since they've never been shown = to actually work. >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Mon Oct 4 08:11:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896353A08AA for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:11:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e16g-X8pegty for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11F233A08AF for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:59b7:cc10:876b:ae11] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:59b7:cc10:876b:ae11]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 194FBI2O589002 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:11:18 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633360278; bh=HGxtV2zxxC9DTCF5oXvTc73/KpZ19echK9bQ87MHfwA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=PywO7cS1kSlzdRvZtz3m8MfhuivyQu1O5V6qDkJQ8AOd1iPLmZ8yCYyYVnatOshDm uuSSxxWmNZ1YeT8UWQkM9ZVQUj7LkzYhwXvJl9JM+Px4zlJbTWJVU9WrYsqkLLuxbk OshT41ec5TIGg6ccJs01JE7CEj7jeSyOUJ0Uv7eE= To: Colin Perkins , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:11:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DbWVMG4kIVQH8PWSDguTtRhp8RoZij3Wx" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:11:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --DbWVMG4kIVQH8PWSDguTtRhp8RoZij3Wx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="a8aTZ7UA916ZvDCr4749FeVuBJ4BWk6wj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Colin Perkins , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: --a8aTZ7UA916ZvDCr4749FeVuBJ4BWk6wj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 04.10.21 17:02, Colin Perkins wrote: > How does this help? > > The risk is that, e.g., the IRTF chair or ISE disappears without naming= a delegate. We want to avoid the RSAB accidentally approving a document = detrimental to that stream while a replacement is chosen, which may take = time. These are two slightly different cases but they amount to the same=20 answer.=C2=A0 In the normal course of business, presumably the IRSG will = delegate this role to someone other than the IRTF chair, and the IRTF=20 chair serves as a backstop.=C2=A0 In the case of the ISE, he or she will = delegate, and serve as a backstop.=C2=A0 What happens if both disappear?=C2= =A0=20 That's turtles all the way down, and I suggest that we not define policy = quite that far yet. Eliot --a8aTZ7UA916ZvDCr4749FeVuBJ4BWk6wj-- --DbWVMG4kIVQH8PWSDguTtRhp8RoZij3Wx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFbGZYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejM2 5QgAohk+XC4qzCICr5cTTk/llPcwVVHj64pRobcMRDWijXwhjrH8jaTWRhetlQPtZ8u1l7oueIBP zfZDk9JBPgxFVBS0EU5npLjPCvboc5zpuBVMdqzWxzFmg1l+jqMDQM36k88mHDSIqH2HbWY3FgK8 rbotNZBI+iDSSrnqDg4zX/EUASXREsffc4EKXOHjZ6Fp5FYFM0c9ZmqIQNbweR5piP7Q1JD2uuhk YyKQrhhkIzSqTQ1Dw5BDmMuUDQEHwlbSH16JIHeP4mwHPe1XJuOnhu0mHlrUQYJED3dZxLnjbHSY KTx9/vxgbZi+niX6f/rueU5BOm0ZkP9gJlzBAgTHnw== =Kqqq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DbWVMG4kIVQH8PWSDguTtRhp8RoZij3Wx-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 08:35:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A913A08FC for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Hgy9zTxdp1v for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF4923A08FA for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:35:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=0FWm/8Oi34p5g8Tq7MKaQDIELCTJuJ0LaLE245SAA2s=; b=RuaqY1+6jMP2glL7S9+F7VCHM1 60sqzv0CuYVEcRZMBCfGDrDQchiSpDWrYuKxhtUBHvwzxkvEo0W7unTzqhUJfqU5dR4eXXIfCAf5I YlutYSuub66o9assLIdPEKFF8XfU19ECHOnnFJUXK+RDPqao9ZzYJdWOcqgQQh/TVxV2+lz/tJN/y PP2d3pxVDjCXXMGhtclA01XmiYfy37gdTTUYs3JhpeEiCy3uC8LOEBEvZRLipPVt5fKUrKSSbYyVN XdqYGT5DPKpAkcikshlubITuTvNaaaBMOGT6m3j8hLzELGRJeAXOA1rlQ7bfSLEVge1X/StswIA3o +CgRj9HA==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=41790 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXPzk-00047C-SR; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 16:35:13 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <12F30F7C-CF1F-438D-80B3-B05080736CAE@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_293379F6-5C89-4C8B-A4E7-1A715D7DE6FF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:35:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org To: Eliot Lear References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:35:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_293379F6-5C89-4C8B-A4E7-1A715D7DE6FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 4 Oct 2021, at 16:11, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > >=20 > On 04.10.21 17:02, Colin Perkins wrote: >> How does this help? >>=20 >> The risk is that, e.g., the IRTF chair or ISE disappears without = naming a delegate. We want to avoid the RSAB accidentally approving a = document detrimental to that stream while a replacement is chosen, which = may take time. >=20 > These are two slightly different cases but they amount to the same = answer. In the normal course of business, presumably the IRSG will = delegate this role to someone other than the IRTF chair, and the IRTF = chair serves as a backstop. In the case of the ISE, he or she will = delegate, and serve as a backstop. What happens if both disappear? = That's turtles all the way down, and I suggest that we not define policy = quite that far yet. That was kind-of my point. It=E2=80=99s okay if the RSAB stops while a = role is vacant, because the relevant appointing body will appoint a = replacement or a delegate in a reasonable time (and I count a few months = as reasonable=E2=80=A6 recruitment can take time). And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no = delegate can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and the appointing body = can=E2=80=99t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replacement to the role, then = we have bigger concerns, and the process should stop until they=E2=80=99re= resolved.=20 Colin= --Apple-Mail=_293379F6-5C89-4C8B-A4E7-1A715D7DE6FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 4 Oct 2021, at 16:11, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

<no= hats>

On 04.10.21 17:02, Colin Perkins = wrote:
How does this = help?

The risk is that, e.g., the IRTF = chair or ISE disappears without naming a delegate. We want to avoid the = RSAB accidentally approving a document detrimental to that stream while = a replacement is chosen, which may take time.

These are two slightly different = cases but they amount to the same answer.  In the normal course of = business, presumably the IRSG will delegate this role to someone other = than the IRTF chair, and the IRTF chair serves as a backstop.  In = the case of the ISE, he or she will delegate, and serve as a = backstop.  What happens if both disappear?  That's turtles all = the way down, and I suggest that we not define policy quite that far = yet.

That was kind-of my point. It=E2=80=99s okay if the RSAB stops while a = role is vacant, because the relevant appointing body will appoint a = replacement or a delegate in a reasonable time (and I count a few months = as reasonable=E2=80=A6 recruitment can take time).

And if we hit the = situation where one of the roles is vacant, no delegate can be found = that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and the appointing body can=E2=80=99t, or = won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replacement to the role, then we have bigger = concerns, and the process should stop until = they=E2=80=99re resolved. 

Colin
= --Apple-Mail=_293379F6-5C89-4C8B-A4E7-1A715D7DE6FF-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 10:38:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5543A0A4A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9e0sXKRB3_61 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBC6C3A0963 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 194Hbogw660281 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:37:50 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633369070; bh=sRrqIUCiaNOV2pyLbWTZEaHQu27+dl7WN77VheZ3nuc=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=rOj7lOUC+ptqpotSPkAxpQuEoJmbkkj+EvRQ/VHU6lTrUbaVF/A29RSbaU+rEPuOO uhniGYZCJwCJiUANvC9dvaOhZLYOsuQ6IGg/iKYGEUQqu5tPDZtennQylF3xRwTFGw hgw/CE0UogaMG2PQTXNasO2b/srghTzaPeK2pH9c= To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> <12F30F7C-CF1F-438D-80B3-B05080736CAE@csperkins.org> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:37:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12F30F7C-CF1F-438D-80B3-B05080736CAE@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tl7wIux1i9Qv4cbmu7iSazGz8Lpc1vTVn" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:38:00 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tl7wIux1i9Qv4cbmu7iSazGz8Lpc1vTVn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8xjUb41AD5r57YfavNsEhTOOk0SA0TVbm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> <12F30F7C-CF1F-438D-80B3-B05080736CAE@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <12F30F7C-CF1F-438D-80B3-B05080736CAE@csperkins.org> --8xjUb41AD5r57YfavNsEhTOOk0SA0TVbm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------42D805D4869912917764234C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------42D805D4869912917764234C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04.10.21 17:35, Colin Perkins wrote: > > And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no=20 > delegate can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and the appointing bod= y=20 > can=E2=80=99t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replacement to the role, the= n we have=20 > bigger concerns, and the process /should/=C2=A0stop until they=E2=80=99= re resolved. So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to do = is withdraw their delegate.=C2=A0 Why should that be a tolerable state?=C2= =A0=20 Adrian's proposal gives you two ways to avoid a vacancy.=C2=A0 Turning th= is=20 around, why would that be problematic? Eliot --------------42D805D4869912917764234C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<again no hats>

On 04.10.21 17:35, Colin Perkins wrote= :

And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no delegate can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, an= d the appointing body can=E2=80=99t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replac= ement to the role, then we have bigger concerns, and the process should=C2=A0stop until they=E2=80=99re resolved.

So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to do is withdraw their delegate.=C2=A0 Why should that be a tolerable state?=C2=A0 Adrian's proposal gives you two ways to avoi= d a vacancy.=C2=A0 Turning this around, why would that be problematic?<= br>

Eliot

--------------42D805D4869912917764234C-- --8xjUb41AD5r57YfavNsEhTOOk0SA0TVbm-- --tl7wIux1i9Qv4cbmu7iSazGz8Lpc1vTVn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFbO+wFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMU YAgAndyYYiPiemkvjGi6fORfe7+A6oUcUr3AzjRx2iGt0cI/arCANf2cTwks8jNeS3payyr9fJ3O w6OWL93UDqPwIdkAmdY3zgNzOqkeiHW3Qi4FF8+E0CxGS0Ohlb5ypZV7bjjx71MSxDosdic32gJC YVwJA0pijcgGbFOWIcCqer3tsKvrQ+Y4OB4+eAx4bYVEOggjTwTWzs7SwRBbQwK7wzuWrwnLtd1E x3NhJNDBKp4mUrbcZCET/C2NmMrB64gEDlohhD4D7BdxS2wM0SrLNESzQYehFXB6qDJ23Jp9fpzj kosG83RIEZQwg2x8hdkON21TE2NCaj4xDtLzXUX4+g== =kLI1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tl7wIux1i9Qv4cbmu7iSazGz8Lpc1vTVn-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 10:51:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21E23A0A7B for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPaC6p_6zI1V for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB3BB3A0A74 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=9roNR2fCIIqma1E3JfK9JPJBBOBrZJqOv4bM5PdZeFc=; b=xU4pwC6LjUmkttp8shzVRfGMtC K3142kqIqPePqkYmT+PuRBBVqmAh3p/FE1hYn1y6wQ/IXuHMS6SR8eVmg5qd1K+JnOpeD2VjmvTDZ kw8W5Q3xJTACcLWgffXL2nhdYEb0UtcUgS/OCbTmC3PWvLeDvU8prgVMEWdPJOe48lUnj+KR8Rkrv eRckDJUthJ+gB6DAswnYAoPiCPl4X0JSmdWWxk/12VbdIRMheqUjFdGzTAg7PLNAPlBW2yis4aiUQ 8VeGJ+RgcMR1t1q6UZnmiU0VwQ2vuB5NGJv7O79NwvtzVqZALDgslDhfWEGs/Dc4dIERBCZuoWUN8 WkRe/pKw==; Received: from [82.132.217.110] (port=49610 helo=smtpclient.apple) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXS7S-0003rv-P6; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:51:18 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-55D63297-5C47-447D-8446-711A1603AA03 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Colin Perkins Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:51:15 +0100 Message-Id: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> References: Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk In-Reply-To: To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A348) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:51:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail-55D63297-5C47-447D-8446-711A1603AA03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:37, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > >=20 >> On 04.10.21 17:35, Colin Perkins wrote: >>=20 >> And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no delegate= can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and the appointing body can=E2=80=99= t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replacement to the role, then we have bigger c= oncerns, and the process should stop until they=E2=80=99re resolved.=20 > So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to do i= s withdraw their delegate. Why should that be a tolerable state?=20 >=20 In what way is it tolerable? The community would be in uproar if the IAB tri= ed to do such a thing. The IAB not following their stated procedures to appo= int is an appealable action.=20 Colin --Apple-Mail-55D63297-5C47-447D-8446-711A1603AA03 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Mail-978D6E15-2693-4381-8FE9-925F8777E015 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-978D6E15-2693-4381-8FE9-925F8777E015 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:37, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20

<again no hats>

On 04.10.21 17:35, Colin Perkins wrote:

And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no delegate can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and t= he appointing body can=E2=80=99t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replaceme= nt to the role, then we have bigger concerns, and the process sh= ould stop until they=E2=80=99re resolved.

So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to do is withdraw their delegate.  Why should that be a tolerable state? 


In what w= ay is it tolerable? The community would be in uproar if the IAB tried to do s= uch a thing. The IAB not following their stated procedures to appoint is an a= ppealable action. 

Colin



= --Apple-Mail-978D6E15-2693-4381-8FE9-925F8777E015 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=OpenPGP_signature; x-apple-part-url=D920512E-F786-4985-8EEC-967BB60E6330 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=OpenPGP_signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Id: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFbO+wFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMU YAgAndyYYiPiemkvjGi6fORfe7+A6oUcUr3AzjRx2iGt0cI/arCANf2cTwks8jNeS3payyr9fJ3O w6OWL93UDqPwIdkAmdY3zgNzOqkeiHW3Qi4FF8+E0CxGS0Ohlb5ypZV7bjjx71MSxDosdic32gJC YVwJA0pijcgGbFOWIcCqer3tsKvrQ+Y4OB4+eAx4bYVEOggjTwTWzs7SwRBbQwK7wzuWrwnLtd1E x3NhJNDBKp4mUrbcZCET/C2NmMrB64gEDlohhD4D7BdxS2wM0SrLNESzQYehFXB6qDJ23Jp9fpzj kosG83RIEZQwg2x8hdkON21TE2NCaj4xDtLzXUX4+g== =kLI1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-978D6E15-2693-4381-8FE9-925F8777E015-- --Apple-Mail-55D63297-5C47-447D-8446-711A1603AA03-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 10:56:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B583A08FE for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7DF4EYcwNrnC for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5628B3A08C0 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id t11so8655593ilf.11 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 10:56:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FqT1Lr3lQuujMqzx/sLo6xc/OpUBYIpq+K9NYC1jq4Q=; b=DwK/rsGCljeVpDYf4l+ITI8swBy49hztruor5p2G+rOBDZLuPGAMAfIH84+EDQAu9/ TZ75UCqX3m5f/eluTvYgaP7DUkIvbVzPekNMIV7seggPKnAK3k1Ysj6p5V8q5lNUk8kw f+qWT4qml+jtb8Dpxi1pHS29gwQSGqByv7Dgg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FqT1Lr3lQuujMqzx/sLo6xc/OpUBYIpq+K9NYC1jq4Q=; b=iEkSKAW9RBPFfLTPVnJVHL28brj34wbD4MJpGMdkGmGKIOeyBN/J4SIKKEH7qbdQxH 27NHce07GX8XniEqjurzz9fnP0ag4jVr21o9IDdiWxZC/vwLOAaOzihlRWcuKuqJGCXr NAqR7N5uYnIpBsdyNiElFV0KnWSQKqRNUYtUqGzMvYIFKH5iuScgdE9YMg6urPnfkO6s iztSssM4V1wwOUlJOzu8qReM7jUTSnD9RLkO28lkpobT5Lo+JTND1d+qvb7H6DRAYK2u 5nyqt56ikLRTXiNTYgQMZOHsMeH/8/K1jbRgYJhn7IGX0qnYnlkW6NSplfjYCj+5gt5S k1Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532LcGRJaFk2L+6/gsleb/Ow+3QWYg9KroynppsVooFyBZm0tHSI LQ0BZCEK25COQwTv/1bKVZ4Urw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbgKyAWx4xRc+pMZo4AgVFlLQcvyaNy4+12VqsnleC4vXGnQMv/qulw+mEOfZk5bamllBdTA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:20c7:: with SMTP id 7mr11240968ilq.118.1633370208321; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r19sm9518317iot.0.2021.10.04.10.56.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 10:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:56:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:56:56 -0000 On 10/4/21 8:49 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>> Someone want to suggest text? >>> >>> Brian >>> >> >> ### >> >> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >> >> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. > > Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that urgent, and I’d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come to a decision that quickly. > > I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream in this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn’t get to approve documents, even if that takes several months to make an appointment. Things might break if it approves something without a check from a particular stream. AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who is a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate in the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). Peter From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:30:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597FE3A0AC1 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:30:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hXSgo0n_O4iU for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14F443A0ABC for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=9zOemBxkh22sX0Rpotu380x9IfluFvx30e88KNLxSfE=; b=MNXUpaXFRnyqhldHv8sszWWbpY 13L49c7VLcqfk5rZao9FFImPQUzVfacJhKUEChFoboE8d+QW+urcxY5e4LQv+d8VgfYWLK1IEiyMm rjVMChcoAq0Ze5GRlVBR231KtTKdfNBOi4TPWLxto7kBX4F9sgDs1t3F40t0yiVM9bry35g0AJv4h 2YR8L69lEXcokjaNiDOqy19vDw9ilsfb9khOqe0YG1iZ5gWxS/+MLpZS9EO0HoNLCHc+A+7vWFG5P tIWRMIGfmdZB8C8SSX97SlD58xrPNRDPBx9uL+/zxVEhnoqD2VaP535b15lY57NZaxDhDIGrMwXmt rKwuFG2w==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=38867 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXSiq-0004cm-5B; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:29:56 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:29:54 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:30:05 -0000 > On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:56, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: > On 10/4/21 8:49 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>>> Someone want to suggest text? >>>>=20 >>>> Brian >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ### >>>=20 >>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >>>=20 >>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >>> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >>> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >> Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that = urgent, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come = to a decision that quickly. >> I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream in = this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn=E2=80=99t get to approve = documents, even if that takes several months to make an appointment. = Things might break if it approves something without a check from a = particular stream. >=20 > AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who is = a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate in = the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, = just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). Sure, but unless I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood, it doesn=E2=80=99t protect = a stream from the RSAB acting against the stream's interest, = accidentally or otherwise, while there=E2=80=99s a vacancy for the = representative of that stream. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:40:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677AD3A0AD7 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IgeWt50uqjxv for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DCA33A0AD4 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:e514:1d81:26e6:5d56]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 194Iecdm690768 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:40:38 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633372838; bh=TUIdQg4G2hpMG7NU5kjKHNfRCCRD1/tJIZePE9IB+y8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=KX6iITIhtMnH0TaeLvTQtq6PY+iOo8wzrXjFB2dZVaFNQ6bO4vQ9B2PNZRXVO/bKD ipyGAs/trg8zJbrUgN5h26YkZcj5ULwtmOxH0vfjEJY/J5Fl6CVt0drbsv1JpHCwJQ aIcyWouYEff3OUlAJFziZ4WX2eBtuiYLTAcpA5m4= To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <55df8df7-ab8e-af5e-9e03-5431afef8d26@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:40:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LytlHXTGPL99O7OhQHcDv6SOpSFv5UqnW" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:40:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --LytlHXTGPL99O7OhQHcDv6SOpSFv5UqnW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="si0HvgmfAhTckVLGnBf7jCfZOi2Z18LCW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk Message-ID: <55df8df7-ab8e-af5e-9e03-5431afef8d26@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum References: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> --si0HvgmfAhTckVLGnBf7jCfZOi2Z18LCW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 04.10.21 19:51, Colin Perkins wrote: > > So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to=20 > do is withdraw their delegate.=C2=A0 Why should that be a tolerable sta= te? > > > In what way is it tolerable? The community would be in uproar if the=20 > IAB tried to do such a thing. The IAB not following their stated=20 > procedures to appoint is an appealable action.=20 To whom?=C2=A0 And what procedures? Eliot --si0HvgmfAhTckVLGnBf7jCfZOi2Z18LCW-- --LytlHXTGPL99O7OhQHcDv6SOpSFv5UqnW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFbSqUFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOU OQgAu2dSY06pRk/ymC13RmIaarTEt2EjeY2fmuxwXEF/NVvBw/KUn4cuzX/NXEOLfkCIHw/GFaV2 n1c2OnllOzlSSJPh0y+7HzE2SJxPO6rHQB3lQpjkYwJDNOMttSnfDXvKvzTYWRGkG3PHn+g0f7Ts InCFDP1R9n20xyeLp0ptfGe0J6xyxSUWrD9b4mO9UAueW6vFnlkzbQ1AoHFd041I64ARYdbYfzf6 uCrOuxX1E+tWbP6I9QfrMV4rSz6reC1tsiEZ+xe4TAk0bw7lEOHW0CIftwv6S76hvB6lZ7zXV/KS x48ks5pry2FW/p4vs4HHxcoGoh3QeOf6upnD7A0h7g== =SEBT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LytlHXTGPL99O7OhQHcDv6SOpSFv5UqnW-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:51:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16CC3A0B09 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5QHYbo-l3bp9 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 767713A0B08 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HNVCx6Jrxz1nw5j; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:50:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633373453; bh=Ghxo84FHa3f60ywNyyCPO/mev12xWNjUZU5T6/LcIGI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Uh1h0JDnzjkBkNboqyZ6DjiuEl6vvn65f/yoWZHFtSLv8WdHtFIuztm3CXA07Bnh/ hU90wMsW31RQ1HFZTz1mcoB/hHOGSYPbzu9r+zUGmG9WKqlls+X/gnvMJRahjeAqRW fNiA96//cr+yR86ci/Up3mg3CLvBgOSbifdVUBKA= X-Quarantine-ID: <3tqQgx620c22> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HNVCw5t44z1ntP7; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:50:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:51:00 -0000 While in theory the IAB failing to appoint is appealable, as has been said several time such appeals can be very difficult. Particularly in this case, since the appeal would have to go to the ISOC Board of Directors. And I would expect the to want a very clear case before they would invoke their authority. Yours, Joel On 10/4/2021 1:51 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: > > >> On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:37, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >>  >> >> >> >> On 04.10.21 17:35, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> >>> And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no >>> delegate can be found that’s acceptable, and the appointing body >>> can’t, or won’t, appoint a replacement to the role, then we have >>> bigger concerns, and the process /should/ stop until they’re resolved. >> >> So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to >> do is withdraw their delegate.  Why should that be a tolerable state? >> > > In what way is it tolerable? The community would be in uproar if the IAB > tried to do such a thing. The IAB not following their stated procedures > to appoint is an appealable action. > > Colin > > > > From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:53:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F9B3A0B0A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUf509vF--1D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37CE03A0B09 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HNVH15Khxz1nw42; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:53:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633373613; bh=TYYTU3YJYnxuCEcdY9/y16oHDUsRkfMFqG7oqh8BL80=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=GIZkgM2DQKXVQvGD61M3UWT78t+Fbkibz8Dc9wYp07HrEIcjSPEN71CBh5r32ZgQY TFh+CsfVsH+Eh11NlWO9tl1HVM/kD8UXPk5ASGOvRNwDVN8eCldZgxLekhvU7DbtX5 YaF5XeOK0NEsIntwa2sm6JqLgMsYGCS4xF7SkAS0= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HNVH0680vz1nvkW; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:53:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:53:39 -0000 As I understand the approach being suggested, if there is no representative from the IRTF stream, IAB stream, or IETF stream, then the chair of the respective body IS the representative. if they don't do the job of looking out for the interests of their own stream, that is a very different problem. The absence of an ISE presumably could be longer. And while I am sensitive to that stream being damaged, I am not willing to complicate a clean procedure for that corner case. Yours, Joel On 10/4/2021 2:29 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:56, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 10/4/21 8:49 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>> On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> >>>> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>>>> Someone want to suggest text? >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >>>> >>>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >>>> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >>>> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >>> Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that urgent, and I’d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come to a decision that quickly. >>> I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream in this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn’t get to approve documents, even if that takes several months to make an appointment. Things might break if it approves something without a check from a particular stream. >> >> AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who is a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate in the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). > > Sure, but unless I’ve misunderstood, it doesn’t protect a stream from the RSAB acting against the stream's interest, accidentally or otherwise, while there’s a vacancy for the representative of that stream. > From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:54:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C523A0B0A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:54:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QW4AGy53YTup for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBF863A0B09 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=kZiyi9v3AQjyHGDb5QfTVdM+4FZM8bMxH/2sqZZZNpc=; b=xgnaoGv+Y7zJoHMI/HoT5mu55x fhA8f3+MzGEcx6OyTuAhHVIkOnY/zNi5dMS2WBB7XbplXxd6SqWAXoha0dsZAOO3rwqJWbK6opMm7 vZQ2KUlM4qgVDOqePHICKfSvxVTOm945bwgC9UkNs8BOQIyk4n0JuG/7sR8OqSqNqi1IDj3cISUkw u/rszdlm7Hmmn/VCGrIZmSFSNHF3f/gdtqVDbl2mP4+ZkgD68n6hOzYZfG+PSVAEn3KUSRTMkHPGI y4fnBYFN5TLQvt5lHe3etlUwo2p62nnIb7mYVX3xMpG1+jtbXhfPnzW66O7ePE/Ym5ohQUFGzDGFY LwF9jMUg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=43468 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXT6q-000595-Cy; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:54:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <55df8df7-ab8e-af5e-9e03-5431afef8d26@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:54:42 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7E3FC907-3178-4879-A841-B173CABB844E@csperkins.org> References: <709F9506-13BB-4FD3-AE46-942C566F9A2A@csperkins.org> <55df8df7-ab8e-af5e-9e03-5431afef8d26@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:54:53 -0000 > On 4 Oct 2021, at 19:40, Eliot Lear wrote: > >=20 > On 04.10.21 19:51, Colin Perkins wrote: >>=20 >>> So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need = to do is withdraw their delegate. Why should that be a tolerable state? >>=20 >> In what way is it tolerable? The community would be in uproar if the = IAB tried to do such a thing. The IAB not following their stated = procedures to appoint is an appealable action.=20 >=20 > To whom? And what procedures? The RSAB members in question are the IETF chair, IAB chair, IRTF chair, = and the ISE. The IETF chair is appointed by the nomcom and confirmed by = the IAB, the others are appointed by the IAB, right? So, for the IAB to stop the process for longer than it takes to appoint = to one of those roles, they'd have to announce that, for example, = they=E2=80=99d decided not to appoint a new ISE.=20 If the IAB tried to do that without community agreement, I imagine = we=E2=80=99d have a much bigger issue to resolve than whether the RSAB = could approve a new document.=20 Colin From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:56:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112783A0B12 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:56:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FYsPuS7w0Cuy for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06BFF3A0B0A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:56:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=TF+WgCxbpmwnrN1fUBd3q7Z+NtvhdDbSFR+8/LJiCek=; b=ghpq4zXuluX8/SDk5yVZzgGLMp 68xvL/7CqVPTiL4B4UepZ8rvZbR34LCvmH9htuU4LyiA0kSwWI/MCzerQkw3xilf2Ir9orPspP+xA CSr2LwE+ho8j+Gif2FAFu4k4p4KyCXOIbKnzS0qPZhK3qHgU4i4jsO04IGR33DukpiBVES/b1IEmx UszGF9ECzYnEYIa4/t53yoaRO4QqNNbndDpe5QCvzp8KT2JbRVit3Y6FvAepbiNSJ1BGl2QfIoP/A O55rQbJUFrB5EAuCVDBxl08aTeT6AfglvnwPIxv9if9SEx9l4h8er/ZR79Cgraxsy+HS4LA+eV7vl IEg8EUlg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=39650 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXT8T-00063X-J5; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:56:25 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:56:24 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:56:34 -0000 The issue is what happens if the chair of that body is incapacitated, or = somehow removed from the role, and it takes time to appoint a = replacement.=20 Colin > On 4 Oct 2021, at 19:53, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > As I understand the approach being suggested, if there is no = representative from the IRTF stream, IAB stream, or IETF stream, then = the chair of the respective body IS the representative. if they don't = do the job of looking out for the interests of their own stream, that is = a very different problem. The absence of an ISE presumably could be = longer. And while I am sensitive to that stream being damaged, I am not = willing to complicate a clean procedure for that corner case. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 10/4/2021 2:29 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:56, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >>> On 10/4/21 8:49 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>> On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>>>>> Someone want to suggest text? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Brian >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> ### >>>>>=20 >>>>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >>>>>=20 >>>>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >>>>> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >>>>> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >>>> Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that = urgent, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come = to a decision that quickly. >>>> I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream = in this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn=E2=80=99t get to = approve documents, even if that takes several months to make an = appointment. Things might break if it approves something without a check = from a particular stream. >>>=20 >>> AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who = is a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate = in the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, = just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). >> Sure, but unless I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood, it doesn=E2=80=99t = protect a stream from the RSAB acting against the stream's interest, = accidentally or otherwise, while there=E2=80=99s a vacancy for the = representative of that stream. From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:02:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1723A0B42 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:02:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LopfraatkfyH for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E98B43A0D25 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HNVSS3YRGz1nw5j; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:01:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633374104; bh=co1Qh0ld7lZEYxnoGB3n7uI1NmCRaHiWD0VrYu+GEuY=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=DelfV72fHcgGi2hHLlHvV3p6H2kuJ+sjeHNWbB2WLUMK8NYbrk47yFLc/qpZNZKNU EFLvSVIM+VdZ9ZPzVSLsTFZ6/4SkJXuMK6i2td5WU8tMLVuQDhlgbYyJjQ3M/ExUXn zKj1RIvcEohgn4XE7eAEh+HKpU+oU3hHPYkmtsy0= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HNVSR1wsTz1nvlN; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:01:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:02:21 -0000 if the chair is incapacitated, the boy can appoint a representative.. If the chair is incapacitated and the body is unable to appoint a representative, then it seems a bit strange to declare that the world stops. Given that one would also have to presume either ill will or a sufficiently odd case that the other representatives (whoa re all experienced IETF participants) wouldn't even notice the potential stream impact, I am loath to craft procedures for this. Yours, Joel On 10/4/2021 2:56 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: > The issue is what happens if the chair of that body is incapacitated, or somehow removed from the role, and it takes time to appoint a replacement. > > Colin > > > >> On 4 Oct 2021, at 19:53, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> As I understand the approach being suggested, if there is no representative from the IRTF stream, IAB stream, or IETF stream, then the chair of the respective body IS the representative. if they don't do the job of looking out for the interests of their own stream, that is a very different problem. The absence of an ISE presumably could be longer. And while I am sensitive to that stream being damaged, I am not willing to complicate a clean procedure for that corner case. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 10/4/2021 2:29 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>> On 4 Oct 2021, at 18:56, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 10/4/21 8:49 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>>> On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>>>>>> Someone want to suggest text? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >>>>>> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >>>>>> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >>>>> Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that urgent, and I’d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come to a decision that quickly. >>>>> I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream in this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn’t get to approve documents, even if that takes several months to make an appointment. Things might break if it approves something without a check from a particular stream. >>>> >>>> AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who is a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate in the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). >>> Sure, but unless I’ve misunderstood, it doesn’t protect a stream from the RSAB acting against the stream's interest, accidentally or otherwise, while there’s a vacancy for the representative of that stream. > From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:03:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB1B3A0B1F for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:03:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TSV1SVkVU_-A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FE6E3A0B18 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE133005D7 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:03:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BNjiV-S5nbRS for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 956A930009B for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:03:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Message-Id: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:03:06 -0400 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:03:16 -0000 At the interim, I was asked to go through = draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03 and make sure that it covers all of the = topics in RFC 8782. I bring my findings to the mail list for = consideration. RFC 8728 says, "The IAB maintains its responsibilities as defined in = [RFC2850]." If this document is approved, that will not be the case. I = think that a section about the IAB should appear in Appendix B. RFC 8728 explain what a stream is, but the new document assumes this is = already known to the reader. I think this text can be added to the = Introduction to close this gap: In this model, documents are produced and approved through multiple document streams. The stream manager for each stream is responsible for the content of that stream. The RFC Editor function is = responsible for the packaging and distribution of the documents. As such, documents from these streams are edited and published by the Production Center. RFC 8728 says, "The four streams that now exist are described in = [RFC8729]." I thin the Introduction should says this, and then = immediately introduce the addition of the Editorial Stream. RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes: In undertaking this evolution, the IAB considered changes that increase flexibility and operational support options, provide for the orderly succession of the RFC Editor, and ensure the continuity of the RFC Series, while maintaining RFC quality, maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility, reducing costs, and increasing cost transparency. The model set forth below describes the internal organization of the RFC Editor, while remaining consistent with RFC 8729. There is nothing in the new document that lays out similar principles. Clearly, orderly succession of the RFC Editor is quite different in the = new model, but I hope that we are trying to preserve the other things = listed here. RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes: Note that RFC 8729 uses the term "RFC Editor function" or "RFC Editor" as the collective set of responsibilities for which this memo provides a model for internal organization. This memo defines the term "RFC Series Editor" or "Series Editor" for one of the organizational components. This would be a good addition to Section 3.1 of the new document. RFC 8728, Section 2.1.1 talks about how the RSE provides strategic = leadership and management. Some of this falls the the IETF Admin LLC, = but strategic direction comes from community proposals to the RSWG. = Something should be said in Appendix B. RFC 8728, Section 2.1.2 talks about how the RSE represents the RFC = Series. Representation does not get assigned to any role. If that is = the intent, then something should be said in Appendix B. RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC = Production Center. This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot = find anything to confirm that opinion. We need to add something to = cover it. RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about how the RSE supports development the = RFC Series. The RSCE offers advice on this topic, but I think, this = falls to the RSWG. I cannot find anything to confirm that opinion. We = need to add something to cover it. RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about RSE and Conflict of Interest. This = text or something like it should apply to the RSCE too. RFC 8728, Section 4.2 says: The RSE is responsible for managing the RFC Editor function to operate within those budgets. This is no longer the case, but I do not see anything in the RPC section = that says it needs to operate within the IETF LLC-provided budget. Russ From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:04:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C026D3A0B1D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5_grHYgiG_05 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BD843A0B19 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id j2so6960476ilo.10 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=t3jt+bCHk8y2qcWG4u5StD9v4AmSfw/X5bEBOyDboZM=; b=LGSj3oYgBkNh6X0sZ1M/VLe02hsw/f+P+Mj8buiDyPbCtWPn4vTO+dRQv4HuIV+xIR RtAnBwycqF3uKSJrB0a0JcJ0TWGu8BImDpvBuZ3nxutr8yOVnRkp+r8TfzTI/rWVGjqS 62SigGyC8ZOn0BCn21GqpELLBOa8mXeEs6A8c= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=t3jt+bCHk8y2qcWG4u5StD9v4AmSfw/X5bEBOyDboZM=; b=ovpsffN0Et9/GN/jJPbsroJcpqa4RDCYrEZJgvYT/j0SQkTZO0wN7YzWzbYMyE6/+X jiOBlpZjWrz1NFjBPsWSTtVVhHLBk1Ml06LiVszFW997lOWy9W6YsrEXBQ2paipEh89d CKrghsMxx8J8xvbXykl6k+8k6p2HSB/9b6le+lrMDqrnXRvlJEbaeS568/IcVzdUMHhX 8nCxjlYEymzqEEXrH4m51KSqO6n8qoRqlcwyQXTw/KsiuKdxo4wzGsTSXMJnJWLfFj4x lkiH0ZFsv35sonzLcCYixwNYgegRTqKD1unSzP0nZq2w+SSPGHIdDG3MB3RKEW3M1CJ2 8ryw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oZkCQX5fiDlwZV0uG+VE6RDlg5lqg483Mj8aRx8qeTb02ITid T1qhOFnnMJD0vU0uoWKmm4Q8YQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlpGWJYG/Nh+hQttAsNs5/Clwta8vD/nw2Xl7EQXCQTzJvqAU3LK2RgGJiJUt860cxTUqv6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1d8b:: with SMTP id h11mr10343426ila.94.1633374243185; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 12:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z5sm9350112ile.42.2021.10.04.12.04.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 12:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:04:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:04:08 -0000 On 10/4/21 12:56 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: > The issue is what happens if the chair of that body is incapacitated, or somehow removed from the role, and it takes time to appoint a replacement. Colin, are you specifically concerned about the IRTF? It strikes me as unlikely that: 1. The IAB or IESG representative on RSAB becomes vacant. 2. The IAB or IESG chair role is also vacant. 3. The remaining IAB or IESG members cannot name a new delegate. However, for the IRTF (and ISE) I can understand that the vacancy scenarios aren't as far-fetched. Peter From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:04:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB8F43A0B1F for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:04:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQyVMm7mn3O1 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E7EC3A0B1A for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2873005D7 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:04:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8SYMxnghhvKf for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1B3F30009B for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:04:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:04:47 -0400 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:04:55 -0000 While I was doing the completeness review, I found a few other things = that deserves consideration. These are essentially the things that = would come up in a Gen-ART Review, Section 1 says: The processes and organizational models for publication of RFCs have changed significantly over the years. Most recently, in 2009 [RFC5620] defined the RFC Editor Model (Version 1) and in 2012 [RFC6635] defined the RFC Editor Model (Version 2), since modified slightly in 2020 by [RFC8728]. This document reflects experience gained with version 1 and version 2 of the Model, and therefore describes version 3 of the Model (see Section 7 for a summary of the changes) while remaining consistent with [RFC8729]. I think that bullets would present the history a bit more cleanly, = perhaps with a final bullet representing this document. Also, Section 7 does not list the changes. They are listed in Appendix = B. Also, this raises a question about the title of this document. This = text says that this document is Version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. = Given the titles of [RFC5620] and [RFC6635], why is this not RFC Editor = Model (Version 3)? Section 1 says: This document obsoletes RFC 8728. I think this paragraph should also talk about the updates to RFC 7841 = and RFC 8729. Section 2 says: Discussion within the RFCED-Future Program has led in the direction of a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some respects to the structure of technical work within the IETF or IRTF) that retains roles for specialized expertise in document editing and publication. I suggest that we drop this paragraph. Without a lot more context about = the RFCED-Future Program, this will not mean anything in a few years. Section 3.2.3 says that the community call for comment must include: o A URL for the proposal document Does it have to be an Internet-Draft? I hope so. The RPC does not = really have a process for other things, like a Google Doc. Section 3.2.5 says: See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716]. Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants, it = is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants. EDITORIAL NITS General: The document uses "RFC Series" and "RFC series". I think we = should capitalize "Series" throughout. Section 3.1.2: The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a method to be determined by the RSAB. Cleaner to say: The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a method of its own choosing. Section 3.2.1: If (following procedures for rough consensus) the chairs ... Is that really parenthetical? Russ From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:18:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D053A0B56 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pBjtU2TIjgCE for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC27B3A0B58 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JIDuH005066; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:13 +0100 Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91CC4604C; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3714604B; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JIBU5028055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Eliot Lear'" , "'Colin Perkins'" Cc: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <3541EF9E-5944-4D3C-BBDD-FD52A6877FA0@vigilsec.com> <7ff5b1b7-1e53-325c-f3bf-dcb692f95663@lear.ch> <002f01d7b839$6d22c1c0$47684540$@olddog.co.uk> <2905ef15-5f79-ad99-9f66-577017de5672@lear.ch> <006601d7b892$1bb54700$531fd500$@olddog.co.uk> <02997a67-5a47-865a-87b7-b8bd2e5e507c@lear.ch> <12F30F7C-CF1F-438D-80B3-B05080736CAE@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <020101d7b954$93425bb0$b9c71310$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0202_01D7B95C.F5090DA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBfkY5FQF4u/JtAdX8DOoCA+r0KAHCph/pAbSN33sB8eOTngJOjTU9AjNDoA4BvNSFhQLaQhRNqeloAMA= X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26448.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.362-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--18.362-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26448.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--18.362000-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: oHOSwQSJZWhTx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtfkuZtv/FS5q8YDH/UBNnmw6A j8TOTwIxacPeCpXC55WtGDjygHelCjNcUP6ZVFlFpHRrMqx3CJ6FThMCX7VKl5uQSXVIw/hVde5 uOkkKYE9iaViLATk6nUQ9bePLcwQ/CpFKBhYcru69aCjRXbFtxfg/s23WPBIpR505CUDHXJ6VAu bogNJ3RGhL25uzd3VXHgz+1dbf5GqfyRP3jjLl9xz2MDiYujy59oVAKMBioqddl3TWFVvRwO//v bMLiEkV0+0G7io/4HWtQ57zuXEmXBWVVkGuW6Jr3zSg/bkXzGld5/m3qrxFzEqa6TyhyXvPk/W3 dqvyXNMLwTxkKC1upZfrKASrZ1St8/HAP78oRbYmEURBmKrZlOukbHApsis0uNfCDuwUhlC6Pzj POGTSA6wglxty6Z/EABZm/8zr/AhzySdTkJm1Sg6w00GeWBFaTX6ADbpYH9GYj59oOLB2GmF5X5 yuwTohDBbGvtcMofysW9PgZXws25ZmP9BcHeURo7PQUVPv3QkZD4+Z+BVV+dOn2q0++Ijd X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:18:23 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0202_01D7B95C.F5090DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am saying that the IAB (or any other stream) cannot usefully withdraw = their delegate because the default is that the stream manager is the = stuckee. That is, if the IAB withdraws their delegate then the IAB chair = is back on the RSAB: whether they turn up is another matter, and *that* = might play into quorum discussions. =20 [For the avoidance of doubt, I am using IAB as an example. I am not = implying this situation is any more or less likely to happen with the = IAB.] =20 A=20 =20 From: Eliot Lear =20 Sent: 04 October 2021 18:38 To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum =20 On 04.10.21 17:35, Colin Perkins wrote: =20 And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is vacant, no = delegate can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and the appointing body = can=E2=80=99t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replacement to the role, then = we have bigger concerns, and the process should stop until = they=E2=80=99re resolved.=20 So if the IAB wishes to stop the RSAB process, all they would need to do = is withdraw their delegate. Why should that be a tolerable state? = Adrian's proposal gives you two ways to avoid a vacancy. Turning this = around, why would that be problematic? Eliot ------=_NextPart_000_0202_01D7B95C.F5090DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am saying that the IAB (or any = other stream) cannot usefully withdraw their delegate because the = default is that the stream manager is the stuckee. That is, if the IAB = withdraws their delegate then the IAB chair is back on the RSAB: whether = they turn up is another matter, and *that* might play into quorum = discussions.

 

[For the = avoidance of doubt, I am using IAB as an example. I am not implying this = situation is any more or less likely to happen with the = IAB.]

 

A =

 

From: Eliot Lear = <lear@lear.ch>
Sent: 04 October 2021 = 18:38
To: Colin Perkins = <csp@csperkins.org>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; = adrian@olddog.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and = 84: Vacancy and Quorum

 

<again no = hats>

On 04.10.21 17:35, = Colin Perkins wrote:

 

And if we hit the situation where one of the roles is = vacant, no delegate can be found that=E2=80=99s acceptable, and the = appointing body can=E2=80=99t, or won=E2=80=99t, appoint a replacement = to the role, then we have bigger concerns, and the process = should stop until they=E2=80=99re resolved. =

So if the IAB wishes to stop the = RSAB process, all they would need to do is withdraw their = delegate.  Why should that be a tolerable state?  Adrian's = proposal gives you two ways to avoid a vacancy.  Turning this = around, why would that be = problematic?

Eliot

------=_NextPart_000_0202_01D7B95C.F5090DA0-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:18:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389F43A0B57 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvEPGcrxwONd for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 099BB3A0B5B for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JIEcP018165; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:14 +0100 Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4B54604B; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1584604A; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JIBU6028055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Peter Saint-Andre'" , "'Colin Perkins'" Cc: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:18:12 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <020801d7b954$938446b0$ba8cd410$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBGiu3+gExUaTAAYK4uVACaYH2sgF6rV07Arr2Q7SqQJQxEA== X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26448.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--3.195-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--3.195-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26448.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--3.194600-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 6lay9u8oTUNTx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtg8J7a5xFoRn8kFwgcyoo4Scc ngSKLuuJFRlxiF1eFJu02Knc7CUcosxvbZetEUyc2Qe1DVqRHy+R18iZ4r3DUbV5fSMRD1zq5vX VAEnFbKZC8HYCJoP7mI9bHfxDWoibW6eKzKKCgnPpf7lTn1AmLwKflB9+9kWVt3HgyTAQ+jAGhy LtK9BH7Ku+ZOVV4PAvC37twcjlmEGPl3QMG+An0TVNQerZ0cSE9oVAKMBioqcS39b8+3nDx4TI/ rUvEzXeHPKIKja8rRKIrw8/Vc4UVKYeOiYJ7x75tqHAAtbfmMUOp2w/jxkSlCuGKh4AkqKVmoCt wcXIJ5CgqZowaleikGQmjp9BINAmQalgUV3H+7MdxBAG5/hkW1zWPAcG6DFAFTuQoTKiFmTzWhI pvgX1cDAhjB2UzQV1aK8uWXuH4d2h7nN8X6Oixt0H8LFZNFG76sBnwpOylLP4D/YEbog2gqvwFa yBpg1nA/DdtCikVnVFAmU2YALPSHsXmL85nJ9C0KcpY2amgaB8EQ/3ghvRu0Bj5bxrsbxTyq6Gz FQnZIIJAp5AN4f59Q+9NXX1QIs7ki/Tr7VHGv3uvg+PNpx4a37cGd19dSFd X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:18:23 -0000 St. P. captures my intent. No one is disenfranchised. See also another response about to be sent. A -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Peter = Saint-Andre Sent: 04 October 2021 18:57 To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum On 10/4/21 8:49 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 1 Oct 2021, at 21:08, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> >> On 02-Oct-21 08:56, Brian Rosen wrote: >>> Someone want to suggest text? >>> >>> Brian >>> >> >> ### >> >> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >> >> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >=20 > Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that = urgent, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come = to a decision that quickly. >=20 > I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream in = this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn=E2=80=99t get to approve = documents, even if that takes several months to make an appointment. = Things might break if it approves something without a check from a = particular stream. AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who is a=20 voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate in=20 the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places,=20 just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). Peter --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:21:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7943A0B5B for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYo7kJmTmr8G for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEBF63A0B58 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:20:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=6S+tMmjIVeZHTpGvj/DUdXx60iYFv8GNR4IvKJ+mFUk=; b=mYe/vEvrNMofG1lD0AmlSnfR5J 6OJd7BfQH5OZ2yCmLepphX05egKezD6hDqHK2qKchmrQLMKhTtC1WFoDnDJO5Aof/yeW5xBEt3sRm zLhfbTav1/w6zEfIAtSaV4idlgtv7LfldV3UvzGVwjJmTa3kynXZPotvb2NQaHlDH+s12SgM92MrH fcUhWSBqhRpQVOQInUal5Ns1FdmxLrRntOxkIiVAluZ4FRm4Nxf2qv1tf9/upiMnlTR+Q9lLzo6Nr cuA9Cgl453aM3KhfvqmQx5NfWurrgqIioqPFpar6xgKG8TnhoDTe2X3kUYns8o9RoqbqLvDTqYv3+ pAxP7cYQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=41407 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXTWB-0004zE-BG; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:20:55 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:20:53 +0100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:21:08 -0000 > On 4 Oct 2021, at 20:04, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: > On 10/4/21 12:56 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> The issue is what happens if the chair of that body is incapacitated, = or somehow removed from the role, and it takes time to appoint a = replacement. >=20 > Colin, are you specifically concerned about the IRTF? >=20 > It strikes me as unlikely that: >=20 > 1. The IAB or IESG representative on RSAB becomes vacant. >=20 > 2. The IAB or IESG chair role is also vacant. >=20 > 3. The remaining IAB or IESG members cannot name a new delegate. >=20 > However, for the IRTF (and ISE) I can understand that the vacancy = scenarios aren't as far-fetched. For the IETF, I=E2=80=99m not concerned. The IESG would be able to = appoint a temporary chair until the nomcom could find a replacement. = Also, there are enough people that understand the concerns of the IETF = stream that I don=E2=80=99t see the potential for anything too = problematic to be approved in the interim, even if the role was left = vacant.=20 For the IAB, I=E2=80=99m not especially concerned, because the IAB can = elect a new chair within a couple of weeks, using the same procedure it = uses to elect a chair each year.=20 For the ISE or the IRTF, finding a replacement would involve the IAB = making an appointment, which could take time, and the number of people = who are familiar with the concerns of those streams is significantly = less than for the IETF stream, so there=E2=80=99s more risk that a = decision is made that causes a problem for those streams by accident.=20 I don=E2=80=99t understand what the RSAB would need to approve so = urgently that it can=E2=80=99t wait for the IAB to make an appointment = to those roles. And I=E2=80=99m not persuaded by the argument that the = IAB might try to derail the process by not making an appointment.=20 Colin From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:21:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C673A0B5E for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bpqotfIKkTm2 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E1DB3A0B63 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JLXp0019592; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:21:33 +0100 Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0932E4604A; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:21:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDC246043; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:21:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:21:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JLV4o030089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:21:32 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Colin Perkins'" , "'Peter Saint-Andre'" Cc: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:21:32 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <021301d7b955$0a777a80$1f666f80$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBGiu3+gExUaTAAYK4uVACaYH2sgF6rV07Arr2Q7QCB1Yws6owW23Q X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26448.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--1.068-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--1.068-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26448.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--1.068400-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: eVEkOcJu0F5Tx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jtCzetT8yDAKOqvcIF1TcLYNWK 2zrwMx/jfqO5lndluk1S9yoHTh+31sh034u9yDS5BeUpwRyLLvqPSNdj1JMyAQS4ecLQ371khJl tdLrHwlL0hnqVnMfFv2yTEFFaVEke/Ew9fSzpu4H1MIl9eZdLbyILdc+InEErK8VLPDcP9n4y91 6VumYFmddAh4Bq3QwabYsPQfc3D1sDFgoHQs6fmhiQAwGwRxlMMVx/3ZYby79/Z0SyQdcmEHpFp Kkcmr8AnXHMFZLyU3dlTK+EweHf6ERV7C9ojOZ1r8sqgXLsR6L+Ngp31WVSjpgs1f7VFvxM75T4 BPuNkdpyZXEMCl083dJ5huO1TzzAlwV2iaAfSWdTptoDfp6JrMRB0bsfrpPIcSqbxBgG0w6RnK5 9ENTdiLtGQdqOn1hUBHPJSvb+MSbqoEKURGzjs+UiIhzPZqzVbGof5yg2X2vK1/wVTyyHh0oj2L eLX6oHk+wvGV9j9p/EKh5bR1PYFof8kK+K1APpIcrpoIxNunU/lq6oymdYKw== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:21:40 -0000 [Bottom-post] >>>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >>>>=20 >>>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >>>> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >>>> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >>> Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that = urgent, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come = to a decision that quickly. >>> I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream = in this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn=E2=80=99t get to = approve documents, even if that takes several months to make an = appointment. Things might break if it approves something without a check = from a particular stream. >>=20 >> AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who is = a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate in = the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, = just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). > Sure, but unless I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood, it doesn=E2=80=99t = protect a stream from the RSAB acting against the stream's interest, = accidentally or otherwise, while there=E2=80=99s a vacancy for the = representative of that stream. [AF] Protection is achieved in all cases except the absence of the = stream manager. So, for example, if the IRTF delegate drops off the = RSAB, and if the IRTF chair is MIA, and if the IAB doesn't appoint an = IRTF chair, then the IRTF stream is vulnerable. Let's not over-engineer = this? A From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:24:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECAD3A0B57 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qcvT1bk2bRju for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BD093A0B56 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:24:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=6txRwdKzIxZ0viQpOqw4NNRf+Z0bl9KPGv14nSJMUIU=; b=HxSc8JNLcrwway8Vv01qiWTXfb 69CBtHQwYaN4MHd/sG3DubRClFl7Q2fs8YDqN4A/bISukG1FeUQqMGl5KjdrOraLenBlMsLof6pQE wikx0ElPSu++8alg7FfNfDT5tCaE6EIJymPq2cId0WNpN2/hRdq669LPZcp2kORjOp2/NmUgHW940 0hBULGssYajjGLCe62sCGA+76cDZYRTCzzWeJVfFqK0grn/RngiLUwPeSHWfu67XC4/qGh/jwtNrX duw1VFL1+DGLIdgqg0pTqyIUCdr++zm+vwk/ZA6sYq9KJ1BcjhJaE9HTirHvyeXIMuzlRLEYbHvX4 Vw7QBGRQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=43895 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXTZO-00052y-04; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:24:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <021301d7b955$0a777a80$1f666f80$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:24:11 +0100 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <021301d7b955$0a777a80$1f666f80$@olddog.co.uk> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:24:28 -0000 > On 4 Oct 2021, at 20:21, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > [Bottom-post] >=20 >>>>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows: >>>>>=20 >>>>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by >>>>> the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have >>>>> been filled or for four weeks, whichever is sooner. >>>> Four weeks is far too short for this. Nothing the RSAB does is that = urgent, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if the appointing bodies can come = to a decision that quickly. >>>> I do not understand the rush to be able to disenfranchise a stream = in this case. Nothing will break if the RSAB doesn=E2=80=99t get to = approve documents, even if that takes several months to make an = appointment. Things might break if it approves something without a check = from a particular stream. >>>=20 >>> AIUI, Adrian's proposal is that we would clarify the matter of who = is a voting member and remove this text about how the RSAB would operate = in the case of vacancies (don't try to solve the problem in two places, = just provide incentives for the relevant bodies to fill any vacancies). >=20 >> Sure, but unless I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood, it doesn=E2=80=99t = protect a stream from the RSAB acting against the stream's interest, = accidentally or otherwise, while there=E2=80=99s a vacancy for the = representative of that stream. >=20 > [AF] Protection is achieved in all cases except the absence of the = stream manager. So, for example, if the IRTF delegate drops off the = RSAB, and if the IRTF chair is MIA, and if the IAB doesn't appoint an = IRTF chair, then the IRTF stream is vulnerable. Let's not over-engineer = this? All I=E2=80=99m saying is, in that case when the IRTF chair is MIA, wait = for the IAB to make a replacement appointment before the RSAB proceeds.=20= Colin= From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:25:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17633A0B56 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:25:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5GUJuLmw4jA for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 531E53A0B57 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JPAJh020986; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:25:10 +0100 Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D174604E; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:25:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC01D4604B; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:25:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:25:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 194JP8l9032452 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:25:09 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Colin Perkins'" , "'Peter Saint-Andre'" Cc: , "'Joel M. Halpern'" References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:25:09 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJi+dZ44De85BFSAgEe5a62JCMSygFgaS+iAbYuyroBGiu3+gExUaTAAYK4uVACaYH2sgF6rV07Arr2Q7QCB1YwswFV3ccpAoocvIQDEs2rhAKu3rJ4qeNPejA= X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26448.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--11.739-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--11.739-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26448.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--11.739000-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: gzVbiXtWD9tTx3ytQofwsHFPUrVDm6jt4B4Qje1seFU9CJNlLUipgBcT 3zLrF0OWr2FpZtrxLRZ3eTObcqiUv0lZOTqttGG5l5lQMzKmF9J4PXLLrqnAoPD2ovoq2qto6dh 4kWLZTxH+erqumTrvrKsDnYexvSKCW6eKzKKCgnP2b09s2KGDsBpxmKWTfsQIP4H+2nyK0FOogE bbePtpYrspJ+i1UW0v7ZzK4U4L8LS32LxesuY7itMj64h537984oye/eSDZSSIjNQMv4cWVsM7F LR0bZ/eLtOoXv4C9MrF13tOkUn5xGP7zFJtBmA0081phgl5F/k+4xdAglpjoJgEXULQnZA+cVyb V34/+ahwU8SANxEnQjMqe9CzYFEXzt4XgEToRjoAPmNKDWsW0PRLPzmkXadUm5BJdUjD+FUoU2l fSw9k3rSaRyh2FBNytfBE7110Y0onITjASO+40Cjtvm0vFhmt9pLnYtQ99xJLpCLN4NR43hYD2E a3Potk1HxMlzgp+taf1J6cmr+HLd0H8LFZNFG7bkV4e2xSge4pnBsy9FTGZRhsyj8m0E5BjJkmb ZzMMuWLVhx3qqv6J8WFcyN1Agmm X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:25:23 -0000 If the stream manager (IRTF chair, ISE) has not delegated, and goes = missing, and is not replaced quickly, then there is a hole. Let's fill the hole easily. IRTF stream delegate is appointed by the IRTF chair and the IRTF. ISE stream delegate is appointed by the ISE and the IAB. Done. A -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Colin = Perkins Sent: 04 October 2021 20:21 To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; Joel M. Halpern Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum > On 4 Oct 2021, at 20:04, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: > On 10/4/21 12:56 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> The issue is what happens if the chair of that body is incapacitated, = or somehow removed from the role, and it takes time to appoint a = replacement. >=20 > Colin, are you specifically concerned about the IRTF? >=20 > It strikes me as unlikely that: >=20 > 1. The IAB or IESG representative on RSAB becomes vacant. >=20 > 2. The IAB or IESG chair role is also vacant. >=20 > 3. The remaining IAB or IESG members cannot name a new delegate. >=20 > However, for the IRTF (and ISE) I can understand that the vacancy = scenarios aren't as far-fetched. For the IETF, I=E2=80=99m not concerned. The IESG would be able to = appoint a temporary chair until the nomcom could find a replacement. = Also, there are enough people that understand the concerns of the IETF = stream that I don=E2=80=99t see the potential for anything too = problematic to be approved in the interim, even if the role was left = vacant.=20 For the IAB, I=E2=80=99m not especially concerned, because the IAB can = elect a new chair within a couple of weeks, using the same procedure it = uses to elect a chair each year.=20 For the ISE or the IRTF, finding a replacement would involve the IAB = making an appointment, which could take time, and the number of people = who are familiar with the concerns of those streams is significantly = less than for the IETF stream, so there=E2=80=99s more risk that a = decision is made that causes a problem for those streams by accident.=20 I don=E2=80=99t understand what the RSAB would need to approve so = urgently that it can=E2=80=99t wait for the IAB to make an appointment = to those roles. And I=E2=80=99m not persuaded by the argument that the = IAB might try to derail the process by not making an appointment.=20 Colin --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Mon Oct 4 12:34:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693643A0B75 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPW20vslY70T for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504B53A0B6D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=sKu8SpFVUHvDyanNCbaIWr1us7Xic143aukr1ArefTg=; b=dcuvCZYL7yTeFpPneDMS5vNvft 2DoAPhYV6z8MgiI9O3y/gZBVDSwSchHmGjmfh1HL5sNVYXAomHx6CQ5FaQIGbVfZg+62biUQRvItg h/1F2IdQfixCpXdRWQ+0VsCmIBnHM/xghuGDTEABOZxW9epuVweTo3Ng9z/+Cs7+aNURyj3oybc7Q KcbSYRVjQs8dC9fYAzgN0ztbAn0NzT1FHu+IauHpFCnSnCgUE9GJ02aijw7eVl6BlH1vqpQ77cX9I GGtri39PNc6D1/XdMut2fDbbevGF2zMjN+Uw+C0iq2F2mJ/yKh9mtqg0wNrFdgtVF2GHF306fHsL1 FyIopQRQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=40209 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mXTfz-000815-V2; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:31:04 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:31:02 +0100 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <83D11FB9-797F-4D5B-BBEC-120BF83CBC86@csperkins.org> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:31:13 -0000 Or RSAB approval of new documents is paused until the IAB appoints a = replacement.=20 But, I think we=E2=80=99ve both made our points here, so I=E2=80=99ll = let others have their say.=20 Colin > On 4 Oct 2021, at 20:25, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > If the stream manager (IRTF chair, ISE) has not delegated, and goes = missing, and is not replaced quickly, then there is a hole. >=20 > Let's fill the hole easily. >=20 > IRTF stream delegate is appointed by the IRTF chair and the IRTF. > ISE stream delegate is appointed by the ISE and the IAB. >=20 > Done. > A >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Colin = Perkins > Sent: 04 October 2021 20:21 > To: Peter Saint-Andre > Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; Joel M. Halpern > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum >=20 >> On 4 Oct 2021, at 20:04, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >> On 10/4/21 12:56 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> The issue is what happens if the chair of that body is = incapacitated, or somehow removed from the role, and it takes time to = appoint a replacement. >>=20 >> Colin, are you specifically concerned about the IRTF? >>=20 >> It strikes me as unlikely that: >>=20 >> 1. The IAB or IESG representative on RSAB becomes vacant. >>=20 >> 2. The IAB or IESG chair role is also vacant. >>=20 >> 3. The remaining IAB or IESG members cannot name a new delegate. >>=20 >> However, for the IRTF (and ISE) I can understand that the vacancy = scenarios aren't as far-fetched. >=20 >=20 > For the IETF, I=E2=80=99m not concerned. The IESG would be able to = appoint a temporary chair until the nomcom could find a replacement. = Also, there are enough people that understand the concerns of the IETF = stream that I don=E2=80=99t see the potential for anything too = problematic to be approved in the interim, even if the role was left = vacant.=20 >=20 > For the IAB, I=E2=80=99m not especially concerned, because the IAB can = elect a new chair within a couple of weeks, using the same procedure it = uses to elect a chair each year.=20 >=20 > For the ISE or the IRTF, finding a replacement would involve the IAB = making an appointment, which could take time, and the number of people = who are familiar with the concerns of those streams is significantly = less than for the IETF stream, so there=E2=80=99s more risk that a = decision is made that causes a problem for those streams by accident.=20 >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t understand what the RSAB would need to approve so = urgently that it can=E2=80=99t wait for the IAB to make an appointment = to those roles. And I=E2=80=99m not persuaded by the argument that the = IAB might try to derail the process by not making an appointment.=20 >=20 > Colin >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Mon Oct 4 16:10:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6607E3A0CC4 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=V/CMmanx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=gJPN3N+n Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36i0cZOWzIxu for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 837AE3A0CBD for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37AA3201C6E; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:09:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=1 jRnoCcUfaCDEIrhOsQhDRVyPJqsIweD/vPrQVFSZn4=; b=V/CMmanxw2D7iGLZo /w8ufG0xtlk3M42sWRVGLbO+FluM6sjBwuGXbxdOgRcPpwdWitqQuwvkFZkbMb6p QRJMF/hnGbxHU8PdVNej+Ds8ptfbEJBcrqBGWqox7PwwEN0E0pmGzij2bCS2we8a 1+ZME7cBPqRcpulMFyafTfpcQCr1ydTY6dU2ZCCGNpWNmVUaa+TzT0P8XZCU5AwT Am2Qe2y5lztos/xFP1ie+RD2fTnSOPougzWpTk0vE6VMsgmIT9ra6ryhZmPH9I4w kJdRxNli9L3cvF/UARI+VrgA5Ha51AV4avV/a5l0uSpG+j9R0QwRDPPGvF9DXaK7 0ZjrA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=1jRnoCcUfaCDEIrhOsQhDRVyPJqsIweD/vPrQVFSZ n4=; b=gJPN3N+n3NPaOl55GZG4KJ6N0wYkZbnXfUKMuT34Xo2hNB2EXa9tXrXbO nVBmLeKJlvuknxVx2lpzenOaxmr2RUPYLsWhwjLrtWypVWc03nweZybiLQwIaJ7s Xss8+EZB5OuKHC+Si9H2WMHBMESgYkuGbUiHPb5UsMHaqRp3Lvs+bnYfZtphHxwU piVGhGnedxL8+WLf8vyZslieXyyLF4Rs9kuyEseatdz+DV8Z3l5tru59C1KKEBZ4 sMsmbDC3HTWebgC4uHCiA64aTgIVaBuGEnu9krcfJ5Nubp9R6qttpi+W+kQytTUi /kAqMxej4HVZOU9S5jegpSkuwDJfg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelfedgudekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 10:09:39 +1100 Cc: Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> To: Adrian Farrel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 23:09:58 -0000 > On 5 Oct 2021, at 6:25 am, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > IRTF stream delegate is appointed by the IRTF chair and the IRTF. > ISE stream delegate is appointed by the ISE and the IAB. Is the idea here that these delegates are pre-approved; i.e., they're = warm standby? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Oct 4 16:46:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472673A0B41 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=DhhgU0W1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nhgevGz3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V-LzAP9rhfBd for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A4173A0CBA for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECEEE5C00CF for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:46:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=vNKHYO4+hP/2Wu+9cT8pC2iOPfFKMcN AGUYGtwUsK3k=; b=DhhgU0W1Zpr5M9MvU4vnsJeXdaf2kaRXmEYty5JBQrX5tLo 180fLc6Q/SypymaiySeCjr56vL61HIeDGEUBPclHuylHbeCj54jwXKEqE5Yptxs7 cW5p3rGankzmLAGRNfrbGH3SKaDyrtIMiiNmO9oqIgxQOQzSXeSWBjhG1dLIaeun fPXKYPHDF5ZLizYZH/UsF+t5f1b1XbKqQ2G4rOTDHSFqKA5bQXOOxRFUdXjzQvrg l7sazYacFEn6T1HNPrkaFrxiE7kCF+N/rJh5m5FZAqr7JU3+d3GcncjHr5evjHF2 BUCIii5qCJNOIRnZRzV61E2ugmKY150vqnzYn9Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=vNKHYO 4+hP/2Wu+9cT8pC2iOPfFKMcNAGUYGtwUsK3k=; b=nhgevGz3S4ifUTUTo7h5s8 KRMylS4WC+9Fp1ueZAM2DfpvtbgdNsqKNMEfzNeR5qhMqY0BAmP3hJSkpVpMp5kS kG62Lu9hMaitgVJds/iBPMEoveBP5pj+gPml7HqmpLczoUaOZawoOEwteZzSa8xn rQ7E9Fy6XnICd4hwPyNMHd4WSIp50LwnRANMNruhmdayTHFFBw2xZwDbBrggbcg5 TdnluaWa5Ul2M9kCzPCErwtiSSrZ4O0PxAKfttahCEU1tDv6EPRBCnUFPCsmz2am qN++yqcf2Ztj+nCVzssfUpVxI7woSuoVrkcQTr/wS652bHjp9o+cYUTxxfgmru6w == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelfedgvdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefke evhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeegffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 81CB63C0246; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:46:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1322-g921842b88a-fm-20210929.001-g921842b8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <39c29702-8949-4fd3-bb88-ba5971dd1b7b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 10:46:31 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 23:46:57 -0000 On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, at 06:04, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > It strikes me as unlikely that: > > 1. The IAB or IESG representative on RSAB becomes vacant. > > 2. The IAB or IESG chair role is also vacant. > > 3. The remaining IAB or IESG members cannot name a new delegate. What seems far more likely here is that one of these bodies fails to nominate a delegate, such that the responsibility falls on the chair. THEN the chair is forced to take a leave absence. From nobody Mon Oct 4 17:26:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E7E3A0D99 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:26:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D38g2ef7vHCt for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400110.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BE7C3A0D98 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:26:29 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=KrmV2QD0ne7dMM7YWURlxfb1YtzlKS6R7NtXtk8qbgV34PYYF7iva0kTFHPmm/0lFBH/HHCEGZ3uzRJUMr4skoWT/KhTs1oQhEQ6ZlxBagmEMvOmCy8y9/6KVDuiQRFqZkaA7s3dwbmzkBt7ke35eswrxqV3krKULXgyStGQgZrAprQmi7dET+3LNhYg/uI7M2jB4FIBH66MtzOidSyjvDt/R9KF5BPwS7bSW8WpJUEPIZ8NH1tKjux04t7Duv/HJGetT1aTg0OFFTPujHsZsi62a5Cn1Oiew3GsFspL6S/ZwbbbtqXj6CUoVjwWFSgWgUudsYWMakJNr8gIFKlbEQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=OVYUyGiN/a1k5tWdwLVYWCuCXIj7O/EzkLPVicFnBRk=; b=DZPwUm7amHoCNsijcMwvSjB8m/2Sal7eQhpbPbauKz2c6FbalE6uXrLk9t9RD2TxjvjUwh1ojTnFHkrq0PXA+zd2jlW3wbwUqev0fjw6HyAAIbBYjyWSq+U7vJoTRzgf2XsoiSJ41xWVjV7h4kkkul2Z/FbhG7dcbx0SqR8MjbUl7KL3zZRgJ5HQdXChlur1mIKqQY3GbdclwHUSqtx0KsgL8daO2QIsh/vBDeKbyXh8Jb+2nH2XsJ2+gV20dzn/c+xiL+97fS3/gszVklG8scK+E/b0hHY1Gra+rHezELv8WE0E8M9v0OCNdCwUj4yQQNFsCe3nr95RNTngz8JhUw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=OVYUyGiN/a1k5tWdwLVYWCuCXIj7O/EzkLPVicFnBRk=; b=gb1vLRbdaJMHtVQIJ6G/rFczMYMkC0tNQ0muZWi/Wl2JOFbKMOvooWn4LohqaIqr2EWI3Kyr7QYZrDI+oEGC4XM2DeLNLDnjFT4UfAaOkaPKVrR5o5abwcDxNG9RFNhsGSolEoLI1hymk7DMCftZqBpgFJEk1o7B2TAO/fObBYk= Authentication-Results: mozilla.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mozilla.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TY2PR01MB4172.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:d9::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4566.22; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 00:26:27 +0000 Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4566.022; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 00:26:27 +0000 To: Mark Nottingham , Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University Message-ID: <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 09:26:24 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 In-Reply-To: <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYCPR01CA0081.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:405:3::21) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.7] (114.180.49.132) by TYCPR01CA0081.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:405:3::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4566.14 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 00:26:26 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4a912206-a597-4f8c-dfea-08d98796c4de X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TY2PR01MB4172: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(396003)(136003)(346002)(376002)(366004)(39850400004)(84040400005)(26005)(54906003)(186003)(66556008)(53546011)(52116002)(110136005)(508600001)(2906002)(66476007)(36916002)(31686004)(86362001)(16576012)(316002)(66946007)(8936002)(786003)(956004)(31696002)(83380400001)(6486002)(8676002)(2616005)(5660300002)(38100700002)(4326008)(38350700002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?MUNJczcrdE5uMXZlOU1INFU5OEZJTXA1VEw0Q1E4T0I4d1Zob2RudEEydkRX?= =?utf-8?B?UmpNMC9HQ0NvMHUzcWl1L1FtdzVTMkVGeUl5cEJVN0pnSkxvc0dWaDhGbHBE?= =?utf-8?B?ckQ2M1ByNWdSclgwVXpDVWhvWkxIQnlnamw5SUNxU21oQUUrWEVja2VlOGJ3?= =?utf-8?B?WnRJNjhUK2FmRW5Qb2svNzk2Nnl6aEZxaERiQ0oxaENHV3hWUExOc1JMeUtV?= =?utf-8?B?czlDYzFlSlpRTy9sZ3BXRkxMUzYxNmJWSGk4SUVBUnF0VktqeTBiTG05QzJj?= =?utf-8?B?ZkxUdG9ZbG9kUWpCRmFiWXFGZGp0TUdHaHFOMmxsdHlMT1NKRGI4MFV6V0ly?= =?utf-8?B?WHJDZllMOEw2QTU5a0hzTUNWWUhQWVc1cDBCZFZXU0dHUHQ1c1M2eUdRZXR0?= =?utf-8?B?amdLNEJUMlVnTDc0RzJZTlh0WCtLaVN1SFBuTGlzUEVkdDg0Y1ZsMEZaQlV3?= =?utf-8?B?NWxVNzlOSitXMDZNSTI5Nkg0WVhONzVGVTRqeUFuby9XUVROM3djRUxqb1ZT?= =?utf-8?B?Ritzd0VROXZpNjQ4Y1AxcnZMcXZ1OHY2Uzlmci85eXJJVFg4Rk54eXBsUmJr?= =?utf-8?B?NGN5VGhiTndTdzhIV1ErTmlMM2N6enE1SzVZSVQ3UFNUZU5xdWR1NjVkZ0hk?= =?utf-8?B?M0x4NFZlZGdGYXk3bk5FdWJHSThYellDT2ZxMlByam5zZ2QraFFRL1dLcG9r?= =?utf-8?B?Y3NmYmdYNUtHMGwycWRjWEZYT2V6V2ZIMjBKU3lCYU1EYU1GVTFRYlZBTllH?= =?utf-8?B?eUZ2ZGE2aURMMDREa04wSzUxNVZxRnUwOEdJMXJnUHBFc1hNaG8wNUtVRGxj?= =?utf-8?B?THVZTXlBTW9kZlRNeHJ6WDVXOFJtK21mbzRQWHY3bTNmbUw5aDZrVVJ4anpt?= =?utf-8?B?R1d2U25BK2o2bFJyZXlxdCs3RUhZcWdsSkdmZE1UcFNaYXhFYW50aGczSlFC?= =?utf-8?B?ZUQ1UGRUeFhIcDZpZExlaXcybGFFQytReWZGNGZWYjI4ZjVzNXI4OElxSG5Z?= =?utf-8?B?bkhVYUMyZE4yb2lmNnZpamVtNnkzRm9TK3ZCS1paU01pWEh4enltVHZNWG0r?= =?utf-8?B?a3hGR3lXckxFR0dtdUZJUVNTWnJ2YjZnQ2R2N2tIN1VtdlM4NFNheks1Umox?= =?utf-8?B?S2oyUVo4eUhZMnJyMVh5aUZoZjlTQ05WbmZLNU5FcFc2NERkTHFNb3doNjRV?= =?utf-8?B?RklSTnVnL0xjQXZHR0dOa1RrTzliY21yWEc4UHNGaFBOdFZZR1hDSi9nSDBH?= =?utf-8?B?V0dHR1Y4bTJ0T1RPWDVUWENkYkVaLzVIa3VpUTBQUmFEcG5OckQweE0xbDJt?= =?utf-8?B?Y0VpK0VjdjdWZGRtWGZpT1NIZUIwU2k4TDhSengrWjRnbXdONG5NT3lSb2VI?= =?utf-8?B?blNWbHI2bE5NT0g4ZDliYjd5cEJPcC90L2Q1Yjk1SG5WY0hxYTBrcS9vU1Ix?= =?utf-8?B?UGpEZEFGL1RtMmN3T0owa3MzNHBGUURhVTBlcXNPWS9KYWFiTC9HSHFZYzZr?= =?utf-8?B?dStXSTJ4K05PVURkQldIQzVJL2RNc3NwWVp0Q1hqcFZ0c1NCOU9udUlpeTlw?= =?utf-8?B?bGxsU3NJZThUZUZ5OWJleS90R3QvcnpPRDFnMU05WGtOU2tYemZ0WW1TSUIv?= =?utf-8?B?dlpzTXNxWW5mUGhJV0VQZXQ2aHVOSjByK2dJMjR4QnRzY3AxVG8yWExXQXlY?= =?utf-8?B?OGxvNlRYUXhFYnpLVC9KSzltV0pGVEZldnJmR25sRUM2ZmtqSmtQUTRSa3VE?= =?utf-8?Q?ljH7vP+EidAgoXa11qavVIXLPxI45jdyNIy83f8?= X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4a912206-a597-4f8c-dfea-08d98796c4de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2021 00:26:26.9133 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: cGazpJLYmUHZxypMJ1pxfvlH/CdrrzpU2SQscoiQjUHizNfZ4o03W0YmEb8imlv35Enee+KYYD8v6fDAXHH9xg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY2PR01MB4172 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 00:26:36 -0000 On 2021-10-05 08:09, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 5 Oct 2021, at 6:25 am, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> >> IRTF stream delegate is appointed by the IRTF chair and the IRTF. >> ISE stream delegate is appointed by the ISE and the IAB. > > Is the idea here that these delegates are pre-approved; i.e., they're warm standby? My understanding and my preference is that these delegates are not warm standbys, they are the actual representatives on the RSAB. The IESG/IAB/IRTF chairs and the ISE themselves would then be the warm standbys. Also, my preference is that these delegates can be appointed very quickly in a temporary process (which wouldn't be "until the end of the term", but "until we found and appointed a delegate in a more formal process). Let's say the IAB delegate falls seriously ill. It should be possible for the IAB chair to just ask one of the IAB members (or somebody else) to sit in as a temporary delegate on the next RSAB teleconf. Once the actual delegate recovers, they'd be back in action. I agree with Colin that the community might be in uproar if the IAB (on whatever other organization) tried to boycott the process by slowwalking it. But slowwalking isn't very easily detected. And it could be that's not really that much on purpose. With a deadline to act, what's going on will be detected rather easily. Without a deadline, it may take half a year or a year for the community to be in uproar. With regards to appeals, it's not even so much the problem of which body. The main problem is the remedy. Even if the appeal is approved, the body that lost the appeal may still drag their feet. The appeals body would have to have the authority to appoint a representative or to allow the RSAB to proceed without the representative. Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Oct 4 17:49:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04FF3A0DB4 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=OHLtoVL/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IWnndzGU Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiW2XTEHBLRV for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B6933A0DB3 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6555C00C3; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:49:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=u rC/cXFy040TbfK+lgCp8uLXD+IcrQRwNhe6dHL61LI=; b=OHLtoVL/ygTb/EgY1 GLTil1XlyB99alFz625Apk1ayC28akvvySCqfgdcxzu+m4QaED8y9Pdl0cMIKPXV fgVnB3d0K7MEaBo/0lLlmOwp+DcP6gmHeaOr2n2CF15Pt1ZDc+ctWUts9ENXMnnp LrHrrSSASvFlWd18Aogpud8E8ZVfxGkXzrpvugzREgHTh5aGq/qDo8WbJZKvsj64 t8UU8Z8K+jjbXWUpQ3sH68iul3To3VP1SCZ13xA3NP3TX1/nH9twL8b/wZUtbuE3 EshvA6XK/jAQeHHawodCpFaI6P3EDNysxoyHUD1+yPNzuLqt+TeUvL1FeH+exUQc c0pFA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=urC/cXFy040TbfK+lgCp8uLXD+IcrQRwNhe6dHL61 LI=; b=IWnndzGUjwzSmgW7f/cZEKw4TXteQWBijnZ6muSjnzOxyEsNANwsHBFyr hr/gpkZ+eoMdAN75LASPbcGlpfbam8pS9j9v0cFMIre9jVDtYNUncD7uL9qIyzyz FgloI7MmO3CnUlsDypLVlOoC5IGLH8WRRmZrX9RXkdBPH2WsF5tWqmNl1Sl+313L z/pKY+G+BqIu2RLG0aiANeA/7wpfOc+L/M1+u4tqpyOeLO7r9S07cZbOumn37SdJ 7nGtmSTbe3Bo5YZmYbCDFd4akSZoxKpUtZLVkFIR73VLGE9KWIrR77jBjFNX8XyX mTBFtL+OtPJX1YxUx8Q+Y5S1ovkJw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelfedgfeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeetfeelffejfffhheehfeefgedulefgueejudekieegvdeghefffedvheffieel keenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:49:14 +1100 Cc: Adrian Farrel , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 00:49:30 -0000 > On 5 Oct 2021, at 11:26 am, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst = wrote: >=20 > On 2021-10-05 08:09, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 6:25 am, Adrian Farrel = wrote: >>>=20 >>> IRTF stream delegate is appointed by the IRTF chair and the IRTF. >>> ISE stream delegate is appointed by the ISE and the IAB. >> Is the idea here that these delegates are pre-approved; i.e., they're = warm standby? >=20 > My understanding and my preference is that these delegates are not = warm standbys, they are the actual representatives on the RSAB. The = IESG/IAB/IRTF chairs and the ISE themselves would then be the warm = standbys. Ah. This arrangement makes sense for the IESG and IAB, because they're = effectively pools of candidates, who are relatively available and = accountable to the chair of each body, and have already volunteered for = duty (even if the exact duty is TBD).=20 I'm not sure it's as sensible for the IRTF and ISE, because both of = these are effectively single-person positions. Both have communities = that they can draw upon for delegates, but that's likely to require both = a fair amount of arm-twisting and also ongoing overhead to make sure = that the delegate and the IRTF Chair / ISE are aligned in their thinking = and communicating well.=20 I had been assuming that the IRTF Chair and ISE would both represent = their streams on the RSAB as stream managers, since they're both in the = best position to ascertain the needs and concerns of their streams. = Creating a layer of abstraction here just to protect against their = unexpected absence doesn't seem efficient, and may cause problems. So, I think whatever rules we come up with here need to distinguish = between an RSAB member who's a representative of a body (and therefore = can be easily replaced if unavailable) and an appointee (such as the = IRTF Chair or ISE). I think the scenarios we're considering here are: 1) RSAB member is temporarily unavailable (sick, personal issues, etc.) = for a small amount of time (say, less than some number of weeks) 2) RSAB member steps down in an ordered fashion (gives notice but = continues to serve until a replacement is found) 3) RSAB member steps down in an unordered fashion, or is removed = (replacement needs to be found, potentially taking some time) IMO the right outcomes would be: 1) a) for bodies: body sends someone else; may be be pre-arranged b) for appointees: RSAB pauses decisions until they return or = arrange a delegate, unless there is something truly urgent (as judged by = the RSWG) 2) a) and b) RSAB continues to function 3) a) for bodies: body sends someone else b) for appointees: Appointing body does a limited appointment for = sole purpose of RSAB representation until position is filled, with = preference to historic appointees (e.g., previous ISEs/IRTF Chairs). #3 is obviously the difficult one.=20 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Oct 4 18:57:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F083A0E14 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:57:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8NWeSX92EQz for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71F0F3A0E13 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id y5so1198487pll.3 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:57:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ozul2NjE9gNWi+IpY/9VWaz4LhQgPgUTY05SbKsEpU0=; b=Tr09NQWIF6PLjz0ydo2PzKbxxv0BFB1Uaz26npxC/zRmS4crxm0iiqXasotumLB0Ua oarJsTjIgmiMIwirxi+P37lNkDLW+K/zMmqiP2tjCD+KTbhZE/6wsjENGyuakE2HhT6p vSwKBnWjSjFS1gX4rXEJK65ErztimNTs/s6iit2qOCjYm/ZRluzTsJ4LAU0Khfnbe0iw gOKOalcP+M+dZPwzEUjVISC40ZlLrz9mBrbIDhnzID2zkb4kWLsQjdcOTDiM8PtfLYqc 1hdsB40lgEHSFcX6v45xsJJOfwhh6T8EjkhL0Bg3X0KWAYCPZfjSS+iqpMSGWmzdhDd7 71+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ozul2NjE9gNWi+IpY/9VWaz4LhQgPgUTY05SbKsEpU0=; b=RN0A90P49e/Q72TXmN/bGR41SO5daCo45ZKhaTzHQDpEuXAN0qHcR/AhGEErxz5t0s TyULlTkp0DA7njndjZySX+0dsiPWCbJy+CzNeqgFrWykijEapwD7G0RjWnws29HYAh8H UC8TxLPPFfDhRVv1TxoN+znos2+HdU5sTmdGKwK1io9ZLvI6GFkd7bBkx8wQb8N5R48a +dPO360m0qTXv78w9UcWV6ZxTi7sRuDc5oqUhJ8Bg+gItjKtZAvX6mRJNbKhgCNkGbZl KxqkOjvVkkz2s5OcXGeoZZsWqbTXcfKF7R8kyS47zpML6J34h1bm6ltstrWpNSbuRFej MWYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DvWNV/YXHfQPemEAej5FS56xfub/X7mD2XXc2h4Z4c118mTVd XUX6l7L29VtB5Na9Het5oYLx4LysPmni0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxktghYTM5XmrmBeABr5KxWAsDVFVn3nlzyiD/+lGe3nlkzHI+iSLdpcSPhjrU/OcR/NbHEoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a45:: with SMTP id lb5mr556913pjb.94.1633399053538; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x7sm118196pjl.55.2021.10.04.18.57.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:57:32 -0700 (PDT) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8a3a6e9f-3094-bd7f-07f2-241cefda9331@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 14:57:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 01:57:38 -0000 Russ, We owe you for the effort of producing this review and your preceding message. I'm not sure when we'll meet again, but you deserve a beer or two. Thanks Brian Carpenter On 05-Oct-21 08:04, Russ Housley wrote: > While I was doing the completeness review, I found a few other things that deserves consideration. These are essentially the things that would come up in a Gen-ART Review, > > > Section 1 says: > > The processes and organizational models for publication of RFCs have > changed significantly over the years. Most recently, in 2009 > [RFC5620] defined the RFC Editor Model (Version 1) and in 2012 > [RFC6635] defined the RFC Editor Model (Version 2), since modified > slightly in 2020 by [RFC8728]. > > This document reflects experience gained with version 1 and version 2 > of the Model, and therefore describes version 3 of the Model (see > Section 7 for a summary of the changes) while remaining consistent > with [RFC8729]. > > I think that bullets would present the history a bit more cleanly, perhaps with a final bullet representing this document. > > Also, Section 7 does not list the changes. They are listed in Appendix B. > > Also, this raises a question about the title of this document. This text says that this document is Version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. Given the titles of [RFC5620] and [RFC6635], why is this not RFC Editor Model (Version 3)? > > > Section 1 says: > > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. > > I think this paragraph should also talk about the updates to RFC 7841 and RFC 8729. > > > Section 2 says: > > Discussion within the RFCED-Future Program has led in the direction > of a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some respects to > the structure of technical work within the IETF or IRTF) that retains > roles for specialized expertise in document editing and publication. > > I suggest that we drop this paragraph. Without a lot more context about the RFCED-Future Program, this will not mean anything in a few years. > > > Section 3.2.3 says that the community call for comment must include: > > o A URL for the proposal document > > Does it have to be an Internet-Draft? I hope so. The RPC does not really have a process for other things, like a Google Doc. > > > Section 3.2.5 says: > > See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716]. > > Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants, it is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants. > > > > EDITORIAL NITS > > General: The document uses "RFC Series" and "RFC series". I think we should capitalize "Series" throughout. > > > Section 3.1.2: > > The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a > method to be determined by the RSAB. > > Cleaner to say: > > The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a > method of its own choosing. > > > Section 3.2.1: > > If (following procedures for rough consensus) the chairs ... > > Is that really parenthetical? > > > Russ > > > > From nobody Mon Oct 4 19:15:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81AA3A0E30 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:15:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kWfJR_8F-hSs for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 834A63A0E2C for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id a73so15416524pge.0 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:15:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/t2Tvczry4WaUFU3SAMiCuHe53g2B9fKSoghM7pywvo=; b=TojKPfmIhxPAaMlWCC87bAFIUI8oKD3p8b8NPSp9l/Us82yu0G0JAGjmpWr82rdHgB ndrfPS5u1biQH73OvYNuA0XM835fTfdjcJ+JgIqzUXZaeNfP4fCokcV9FfQIPZqb0lyB WCj/7CK/sADIKgDRYQGRz2EzJpRnspfrXiab27SsJEKyc4dQ9s0e0VVjGRqwjLS3TJiC 5afyedD/dyR+bc6/VtedmmoMTMEhgfQrOvB5XKjiS5Ep4G8+tz5XlTcVgDRkUYuKGCY5 k5uDsJFRSRyFD+DBF/LhzW4dArD/V6Kofq2aN8gPP7uXF7wmhzGYrQFfHHkaZ6ZoyTSD CYew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/t2Tvczry4WaUFU3SAMiCuHe53g2B9fKSoghM7pywvo=; b=BwNypuHDQqdnHRiju1HI7VmaQ3IoGfD1ExLlsCMQysxHbBTrBL82XrnEoTUdbaL1Oa GfH6RMFXf+5SvI7KTQyJkTGdpRpONLvaOQpYoS55Y5bjJXJXPjPXFxn1eFJHNkI9omIg Pw3tihW/zLE9BpNc/2vCIBWn7e1vXNUimWNDoq1Kzdxhyw8EuCsnYysjYWGHxC4bmZ5I YO+VactlNjpwDWMuvUAGolRinVrcRU9L7bwUQdjVryGQLElY7dYgVa27Z2019eOoFzo8 y9NnOg6BM4wp5lOZcg3cFY9b8QTUZcrmcxwqnJg2QYnHh+E0wj9ZIAVAf4WaTBc5K+WU zlAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ghA+uMwAtSzkNUmZiTPiQIvR208kgbPfnU1daSxfMoA8I/+9y 4n14sEA50Bg2hivcjYb1D3I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzDuZeCbrLH+RHy5gXSTsrr3n0CpIVNHozVzVjkPgm3SnY927OJMm93gCV8mfCeJ+07eoZv+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a62:1610:0:b0:447:53fa:a27 with SMTP id 16-20020a621610000000b0044753fa0a27mr28424899pfw.39.1633400119502; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g3sm150067pjm.22.2021.10.04.19.15.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 19:15:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Adrian Farrel , "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 15:15:14 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 02:15:26 -0000 On 05-Oct-21 13:49, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 5 Oct 2021, at 11:26 am, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> >> On 2021-10-05 08:09, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 6:25 am, Adrian Farrel wrote= : >>>> >>>> IRTF stream delegate is appointed by the IRTF chair and the IRTF. >>>> ISE stream delegate is appointed by the ISE and the IAB. >>> Is the idea here that these delegates are pre-approved; i.e., they're=20 warm standby? >> >> My understanding and my preference is that these delegates are not war= m standbys, they are the actual representatives on the RSAB. The IESG/IAB= /IRTF chairs and the ISE themselves would then be the warm standbys. >=20 > Ah. This arrangement makes sense for the IESG and IAB, because they're = effectively pools of candidates, who are relatively available and account= able to the chair of each body, and have already volunteered for duty (ev= en if the exact duty is TBD).=20 >=20 > I'm not sure it's as sensible for the IRTF and ISE, because both of the= se are effectively single-person positions. Both have communities that th= ey can draw upon for delegates, but that's likely to require both a fair = amount of arm-twisting and also ongoing overhead to make sure that the de= legate and the IRTF Chair / ISE are aligned in their thinking and communi= cating well.=20 >=20 > I had been assuming that the IRTF Chair and ISE would both represent th= eir streams on the RSAB as stream managers, since they're both in the bes= t position to ascertain the needs and concerns of their streams. Creating=20 a layer of abstraction here just to protect against their unexpected abse= nce doesn't seem efficient, and may cause problems. >=20 > So, I think whatever rules we come up with here need to distinguish bet= ween an RSAB member who's a representative of a body (and therefore can b= e easily replaced if unavailable) and an appointee (such as the IRTF Chai= r or ISE). >=20 > I think the scenarios we're considering here are: >=20 > 1) RSAB member is temporarily unavailable (sick, personal issues, etc.)=20 for a small amount of time (say, less than some number of weeks) > 2) RSAB member steps down in an ordered fashion (gives notice but conti= nues to serve until a replacement is found) > 3) RSAB member steps down in an unordered fashion, or is removed (repla= cement needs to be found, potentially taking some time) >=20 > IMO the right outcomes would be: >=20 > 1) a) for bodies: body sends someone else; may be be pre-arranged > b) for appointees: RSAB pauses decisions until they return or arra= nge a delegate, unless there is something truly urgent (as judged by the = RSWG) > 2) a) and b) RSAB continues to function > 3) a) for bodies: body sends someone else > b) for appointees: Appointing body does a limited appointment for = sole purpose of RSAB representation until position is filled, with prefer= ence to historic appointees (e.g., previous ISEs/IRTF Chairs). >=20 > #3 is obviously the difficult one.=20 Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is su= ddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all t= he other positions, there *is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,=20 IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no nee= d for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot = standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, = but if we don't define it, that's OK too.] Brian From nobody Mon Oct 4 19:41:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B606B3A0E60 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=ifN7nE8W; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=guEnoI4g Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AkDjoCwlDuw9 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B03283A0E5F for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 19:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427135C00BA; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 22:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 22:41:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=1 1gEpgR5lGBEYArHcgVQvhNyl8uUw6c3i5JjtEQJ8G8=; b=ifN7nE8WvaKmgwA/L +JKVQUJlaA2Hk0xbH7DG748wolCDrXIA6X9qF5wpQ4b735OqzVKH86zTmWEO/nfb Vo8lTnf+MLsfbTE7Yh6ox9LHxxm4aqNGR/PvC9na+XoOcAP1ApkIrp0XHB3RrMzD kKW8Gbn34eMGn1SFR+WU6OacSSdVQYjzhzykWNtEcGGwW9H6WLfJNS/l2ZmI66Ad yyT+QS4AdtD2bYuTs5uBEqkBVu9eled6/N22O7IBzY1Vsml1D0yKfcsZf7Nw0LBn dfwsIDEy5rd7xNZN5xkjjfX4ccYt08u2fyei96m8afkuH7QSzD03afCzM2ba0kJ5 RG3nA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=11gEpgR5lGBEYArHcgVQvhNyl8uUw6c3i5JjtEQJ8 G8=; b=guEnoI4gTIB2UztvxHxbIY1JVBMREStgTq8Lpj8UYHMbX4EB8z6qu5Z44 aqzqDYrQwtjeEBkePhLUBLaeJtmZdtdbR25EK8QTmWJ90SIEl0wd5DMEPRZBVztw i1ZnWKsYrreXpAs8YkooChXp/+wSWF61DJuPdWQlHPMQkVr3uhCPlRxb6MonH1iX vfzzvQ61cvPc8UGz0+L9oNJ8jxxfY71jjjTXweDLyp1qXvXVTWrfI3fz8xGNj90Q /joAFuK4pS8ZySD1Ano5ky4zhUy+quEErjWHPis6JkU/c+KwUQ6easWxowCjsOs2 z56Fn0W4Ha1GHI9isGdJLLoB0QlJA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelfedgiedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 22:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:40:58 +1100 Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , rfced-future@iab.org, Adrian Farrel , "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <796aed0d-539c-1f4f-a6aa-db6fda5aa114@nthpermutation.com> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 02:41:11 -0000 > On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is = suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For = all the other positions, there *is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF = stream,=20 > IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no = need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a = hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 = weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.] If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on = behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. = However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just reading the proposal, = so perhaps some additional text would help. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Oct 4 20:51:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D98E3A0ED7 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:51:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LpIfI0h52tc6 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62CDF3A0ED6 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id g13-20020a17090a3c8d00b00196286963b9so924665pjc.3 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:51:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rqU0m7t6nYvoxfjkwQSQVTFC0tQfzmEpDL5xIpNW9ME=; b=Qaa+D0LTj1+aU7JGepbianZbkHVZ2M1sbELsn2edWenVQRedKmtdSXzSiEuho4qeNf Of8yxmqncD0Gdg2Cm8p/freg0Nw5bo25pda8yNMpgDEmSuXV5JkEz1WvPSw6QoH9QUv6 ElJULMZ6GdG/9NCVjuz3pink9H4itqllDzeC5qBgSH7sYHOyh6azEFLTMQYdWJafCOVZ qTXBbrHmQjfu7/dxIL2t/106rK8P/7JEUdCIjT4YAgSrkGHwf9/EYNDBOMdKRn4K4GYR lQ4yBs+hod/fR0untNwXUAbChMaiXnHpSQGfa+agQXl5LkJjEjVjEKs4QVhTOi75XPTT xJjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rqU0m7t6nYvoxfjkwQSQVTFC0tQfzmEpDL5xIpNW9ME=; b=3kJjD5/WfNzb2z/+Jv5jRuTxhWwwq+gsGazcQXE2EmtBCIVwzkRwhxt1U9I5sn+HSd Ez6aGnyjJCOOvQAivbhLMLLZGQHrU29a2KFiKdZmCE6RCTUbpd62DrxVZxaXAIb3OiEB cK7nAkl6HCjjlF3Z7fXmXoab0ymYC4dS8/Lu1fWYCk0DS5B3g7O1aipzppdCJU8NvgBg u2+9hrkvszY1obLkYMZSBbXQyDnBq9jcW1yTNsWudlX/qtHEa/MI8igapwXfo27s//zQ XvtjRo02TjYwEhYpeeFIHc1ckuvF1FIn8TBHP84q49flx2NTcWzTDqwrX/Z6XD94uk2z PffQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531CmVA7Xri+kOgLWUOi3YhV3iTdRZ0tjJhmEZzRTQzmlAIQ5uem UXmBQTH/o4o1l1ceSNpJ5Nk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwzp/iWXxE1lCjjHQWZu+rV/fKeHpnXM4i8U/PE912GKBmdg4vXDa5ogM40dHck5HquXpnP+w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7103:b0:13d:9a6f:d158 with SMTP id a3-20020a170902710300b0013d9a6fd158mr3063750pll.49.1633405911503; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t23sm11353341pgn.25.2021.10.04.20.51.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:51:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , rfced-future@iab.org, Adrian Farrel , "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 16:51:46 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 03:51:57 -0000 On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all the other positions, there *is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream, >> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.] > > If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help. Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the process documents to date. Brian > > Cheers, > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Tue Oct 5 06:41:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12FA3A0DA8 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 06:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4JtOp0sAsp3O for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B7AB3A0DA5 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee72c960024e64ba49772b01e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e72c:9600:24e6:4ba4:9772:b01e]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mXkgb-0004EA-UG; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:40:49 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 15:40:48 +0200 Cc: Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre , Adrian Farrel , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com> <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1633441254;836fa748; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mXkgb-0004EA-UG Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 13:40:59 -0000 As it seems more opinion might be useful in this case, here is my person = view: I think we should not over-specify this. If a position gets vacant, I = think there should be an interest by the respective body to fill that = position and each body can decide if it needs to be filled on an = interim-basis (where the IAB would be the responsible body if the ISE or = IRTF chair position is vacant). If the body is not able to fill the position quickly, not even on an = interim basis, (or would deliberatively try to block the process), we = might have bigger problems, so I don=E2=80=99t see a harm in requiring = the RSAB to not approval any new documents when a position is empty. = However, I would also be fine to not have this as a requirement but = rather as a recommendation, because if a body fails to appoint someone = in time, it's actually their fault. So if the process works well, I would see the following happen: e.g. if = the ISE =E2=80=9Cdisappears=E2=80=9D for some reason, I would expect = that the RSAB, when there is something ready to approve, go to the IAB = and say: hey can you send us someone? If the say no, the RSAB can either = say: this is not time critical, we just wait; or if it is urgent for = some reason, they might as well go on. In any case, if this leads to a = situation where we end up with a problem, we can hopefully still fix it = later or as a last resort, we have the appeals process. Mirja =20 > On 5. Oct 2021, at 05:51, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there = is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For = all the other positions, there *is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF = stream,=20 >>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's = no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need = a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 = weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.] >>=20 >> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on = behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. = However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, = so perhaps some additional text would help. > Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must = appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been = documented in many of the process documents to date. >=20 > Brian =20 >=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Tue Oct 5 11:34:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E53A0529 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CqKwdcxgfCkQ for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE2AD3A0475 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse101.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.101] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx135.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mXpGP-00062w-4E for rfced-future@iab.org; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 20:34:11 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HP5p21h6GzBbW for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.14] (helo=xmail04.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mXpGM-0003hP-3I for rfced-future@iab.org; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 11:34:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 18625 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2021 18:33:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.217]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail04.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 5 Oct 2021 18:33:54 -0000 To: Brian E Carpenter , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre , Adrian Farrel , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com> <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:33:52 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A35E627C7C136682201F1B6B" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.101 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Kp7E hUHx17PZVOhAE4w+JFV6B94pF4iTqU0cvvbhSXORSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVG1i86zX0nwCcA9cKt4HEs3GFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4alsvCwp YJpdb4B2L4Z5wQyKkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgGI409Uexq5zP1TE60A1w6V mX+FY14+RwSgMas8EAMeb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlv4UUCmkXBqCJq4dw3MvTNu3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlam8x0 7/48Zc+fkRM2ZVPc9dUZcFKmfYmPLticrK0oJ39RXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5ZdNWnOGFBG+otFjVo Y2G4iE81K7Mn3dW7cW+WhJKEMZCN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 18:34:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A35E627C7C136682201F1B6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> >>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there i= s suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For a= ll the other positions, there*is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF str= eam, >>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no= need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a = hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 wee= ks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.] >> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on be= half of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. Ho= wever, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so= perhaps some additional text would help. > Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must = appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been document= ed in many of the process documents to date. Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the IETF=20 boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly the=20 whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement=20 required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable=20 doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was=20 just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't=20 think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the=20 IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a=20 pro-temp interim replacement. -- Christian Huitema --------------A35E627C7C136682201F1B6B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:


        

          
On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all the other positions, there *is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream, 
IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]


        

        
If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.


      

      
Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the process documents to date.

    

    
Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one
      the IETF boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall
      correctly the whole operation went into paralysis because
      nominating a replacement required first recalling the incumbent.
      People were not comfortable doing that merely because of missed
      meetings, what if the person was just recovering from an illness,
      etc.? Given that precedent, I don't think that in the same
      circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the IRTF chair or the
      ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a pro-temp interim
      replacement.

    
-- Christian Huitema

    

  


--------------A35E627C7C136682201F1B6B--


From nobody Tue Oct  5 11:37:37 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BF83A0744 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 11:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.887
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WSebR3-M4ySb for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 11:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 526AC3A06E7 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 11:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id b16so25093qtt.7 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 11:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=jtooOWOo9koEaIB692jmfHB1ZfOs4SI4tm+Kwon/lTQ=; b=YTrNHhf+bnrtSms8+x27xwd2ZAVtB83p9VqdrFz50RbPSu6pwFpFRyT/dH8ipZYbF1 NQgC4dqEGfzphlp8yAaIwaoE8qW86PoM8biP1T4QIUF03ZEuiJZrjAKxValOdYPKT+VG Sa8op6lMTtbqT+6XCZRXN5LcigDA5k2fposXxNG9myR/dmA/B/eHapNY83LNcKzQOSQk TTYxAd0TnCquJVi7Lqrw0YrnsQngeKP1H/nfJ978w6PabW7v09HIZQZDgWknLOwPvRnx SsKtInuE2dPfwoBnrz/FUk8SJ6cnXH74qit+oUuIaz6MRszHws09Znc6sZ5WeOdCOoAN nygA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=jtooOWOo9koEaIB692jmfHB1ZfOs4SI4tm+Kwon/lTQ=; b=RwoixFjvPPrV80tBMSnP7HQ9YDR+r4WtxSxVPXGLv9dVdcOy5kC8qzOEBNF3silpi3 SNxqjzAqe3QZS20X+1mv3vB9C9wzzwhXWcW49DQWp5zYsqDHjkeE6PHFKfcpQQukAJcG UlOmRIAc6uG6bMJBt7vYI4SD9wUVF2eum0DrDBe2XKg2xnmLNj2Uq5ZL4j0jVTQVp1rP YS0k5MYSTt/bTrgB6kcq5UFkA50urWxfiQCTcXOuzs+CIzNsinrxDrYnjaYjOW38XqK8 W2kcdeTf5jkjwpavj43/6QmBm5fgDSG2++JDYTB/W1sreVJy9Vmxfo0hVJiZ5A351u6e MCUg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320Symur2Z0EQYvfNj10NqVEfkXmJC5p+BZiIC0gGLxJPnc2l+9 w5u+T/eN5Yogv1f5Vo4340zAaQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx7zMiLGVI4bN79u7ogf4DlTbPGj3s4gYl4huedCfVT1HSYBsCQRnguCfd7Dx5xf+sQNlcaEw==
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1c4:: with SMTP id b4mr4071221qtg.330.1633459048188; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 11:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q12sm9834067qkc.104.2021.10.05.11.37.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Oct 2021 11:37:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Message-Id: 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_03B48AF8-769C-462C-9D67-0A9B6F127BD9"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 14:37:25 -0400
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre , Adrian Farrel , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "Joel M. Halpern" , Colin Perkins 
To: Christian Huitema 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch>  <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 18:37:35 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_03B48AF8-769C-462C-9D67-0A9B6F127BD9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

I=E2=80=99m not sensing convergence, and we need it.

Could we have text proposals please.  Keep it simple.

Brian

> On Oct 5, 2021, at 2:33 PM, Christian Huitema  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter =
  =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there =
is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For =
all the other positions, there *is* a standing body (IESG for the IETF =
stream,=20
>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's =
no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need =
a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 =
weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on =
behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. =
However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, =
so perhaps some additional text would help.
>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically =
must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been =
documented in many of the process documents to date.
> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the =
IETF boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly =
the whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement =
required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable =
doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was =
just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't =
think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the =
IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a =
pro-temp interim replacement.
>=20
> -- Christian Huitema
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


--Apple-Mail=_03B48AF8-769C-462C-9D67-0A9B6F127BD9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

I=E2=80=
=99m not sensing convergence, and we need it.

Could we have text proposals please. =
 Keep it simple.

Brian

On Oct 5, 2021, at 2:33 PM, =
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:


 =20
    
 =20
  


    

    
On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E =
Carpenter
      wrote:

    

    

      
On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark =
Nottingham wrote:


      

        

        

          
On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 =
pm, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is =
suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For =
all the other positions, there *is* =
a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,=20
IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no =
need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a =
hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 =
weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]


        

        
If the intent is that the =
IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or =
ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to =
that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some =
additional text would help.


      

      
Since the IAB appoints the =
IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) =
replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the =
process documents to date.

    
Did we not have a case a few years back =
when a delegate to one
      the IETF boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall
      correctly the whole operation went into paralysis because
      nominating a replacement required first recalling the incumbent.
      People were not comfortable doing that merely because of missed
      meetings, what if the person was just recovering from an illness,
      etc.? Given that precedent, I don't think that in the same
      circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the IRTF chair or the
      ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a pro-temp interim
      replacement.
-- Christian Huitema

    

  


-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

=

--Apple-Mail=_03B48AF8-769C-462C-9D67-0A9B6F127BD9--


From nobody Tue Oct  5 12:35:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25593A0ABA for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IxWImvPmWJUL for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCEC63A0AB8 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id z184so265665iof.5 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=M9u3tySHHzE4hE1Mb1nsZpYxXfro6TsWXbe5l2SGxGw=; b=F/63yQHsGyX5ltp8oxBzq7JngzQc1LRouHFCJIsqeSU22pCiaEugg+mZBE44OytxNG Y0DpDDLG4DPdBPS7PmaYbJSLSE9D9GdtocRBqHd6VUSxX0FutDhbsjE/4WB7ygUgnjVS TQons2nD9hhnGTNKVK7icVUp1yg2HD2ewFjiQ=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=M9u3tySHHzE4hE1Mb1nsZpYxXfro6TsWXbe5l2SGxGw=; b=butdsBRNzgvQJ1NHz899woeFLiDLOR1pf0/t4+w+U7LY+Sj0hTJ6/kEpyt/fEiW50E TzTzFp3neiNP4gSCVTYORM7I0suNy1f5JMOgFIBmpWw0hV35WqfbGTPQ6LB6ZcjtZ0N2 NYqijwd/aHVjnpqjy0PBUUPzeHd80dwBLgz5Os3mCye4hmiR2kMee5nNprJodaGSsvNu Yx/QQ3EryaF0r0BRmI7PM8CMjwDOO7nSrAWMTz4je4VgEBP4OvvSVlcZL68/6N4XxL0b voMd/PW8TDk5tu0F5mDbdezRsiCSIRsv1IvjBYQ2zIA/GjMw2cUtBW6XQK2yKNVo7y3v ciHA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533LWCilpswXt+hhlhRC17+i0z1tjTHWXBbEU8zj5+k3lX0qQd2Q lqA3IdtE7x/4Xz44VnxoLeLtpg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfTQJlTaND80GPNcX2tyC7P0lH5vUAjBny7AIGPfwj1L0K3c88XGmGktzIj4QOtqfcowJLGw==
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:286:: with SMTP id 128mr2907771ioc.35.1633462511786; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b83sm11196045iof.5.2021.10.05.12.35.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Oct 2021 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:35:10 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Christian Huitema 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <93a71c41-f9f0-d1d9-9890-0aba5344f844@lear.ch>  <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 19:35:17 -0000

On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
> 
> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.
>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the process documents to date.
> 
> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the IETF 
> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly the 
> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement 
> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable 
> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was 
> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't 
> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the 
> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a 
> pro-temp interim replacement.

AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, we're 
talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specific 
role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF chair 
or ISE.

Peter


From nobody Tue Oct  5 15:13:31 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231173A0B6F for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55tja3Cc52FQ for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 15:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 689D73A0B6E for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 15:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id x8so368481plv.8 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2Db0vKVu4g5X9wUIQEGm9L6gxzOVDahuWjwDm6dZpJM=; b=OcJR585X5i3PhCuExuF6HXD8yVPNYWn4+8VDTUQHIm1DkqEYof/q6L7k0C+eziGTho kYehSCOrEzTfQPIgytIutYY7jgAHqBtYeNN0kPy10WZma90L8cNpM+Gs3crwBh6rABEa 2pxwfg2kKj9mYk5EfDG6Br1Z9I6MGXJIQauSjsOLqeD89N1ioLNtcOjffJ8xoBc7Jrx2 /Ev3TVmgs8MZ6wtPYE+IyiaEmUM/6+R/YUEoHRZJSrSRJhFzvSVe33cK2YvGODke5Jli 5BleQr0zzVOW1jbiT0xQl3A6Tdrx2Ipr3SHbMWjhStj3kGCI7gbmUxo5m8qdqZsG7Qcu JBeA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2Db0vKVu4g5X9wUIQEGm9L6gxzOVDahuWjwDm6dZpJM=; b=0H66TP0C6XPBWu3e33Ij19OOSPPY/2La/B6OcPSCvxcsvdv2z58ttCqTq+IzEY/h6Y 5FPbFJTw3T1sKZK7DvUp4czCp0tnxgqG8m9dj33DfsAh2T6Q05pYh1pzTXD05ItMz1Y/ Wrl3eZ7l9Umsbe10P1BIlUSFcY7pR3aAZ1kLUB/BTeWFE4itNCgMAFIxquovTsv2PJ6l S85HmuVUffF5z9+6avhkazW2zMcxAd4AblMuX7rn7nuRbYHsrWCUE2OlZ4VOsfzD3t+b 50QG+2Vu/8pqBRbHE0+5EqXPlarZM2wLiau/2OKMeI5s0NQ1C9fucp0Mv9a2qFzwhC7N DYDw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532kOwmy2OqfPmUQWJ22NKexE3FKAqjrYURKhk1KPfmBjgnMnusD VeRTmTc/cnfdHG7zKHzcUPQqS6SVkzIB4g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQHuhKntbYDeMQEMV3d69UWKoTGdZEHJcJ0kYjqb8L42mdjt/fSdADBcAw1gedp32ScaDeuQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1942:: with SMTP id 2mr6606888pjh.195.1633472004518;  Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:13:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j13sm17805141pff.213.2021.10.05.15.13.22 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:13:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 11:13:19 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 22:13:29 -0000

On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>
>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.
>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the process documents to date.
>>
>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the IETF 
>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly the 
>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement 
>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable 
>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was 
>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't 
>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the 
>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a 
>> pro-temp interim replacement.
> 
> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, we're 
> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specific 
> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF chair 
> or ISE.

Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body must fill
vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an RSCE
will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's
text proposal was pretty close.

In answer to Christian, yes, the IAOC (and Trust) had an absentee member
but was *not* paralysed because it still had a quorum. Actually the IAB
had an absentee member once too; also not a real problem.

   Brian


From nobody Tue Oct  5 16:32:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946493A0BD7 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 16:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=KZkhuDeJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Jg29Rhc4
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2Ga5UdhjFUW for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 16:32:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 379673A0CB4 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 16:32:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC653201C4A; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 19:32:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Oct 2021 19:32:46 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=1 KaDaMjPoZ6MKCh6EvhHnMN0DgVVmurQIgKE5VDrGfw=; b=KZkhuDeJnb50LJaRM 5czBw3mqWoRrp5c55eCuvwmD89G/ZUJorNwJbbyMc7Io03SAwHW//DB/mKjFCBst T6Q+a1A8/SxrsTw+eMzC4y4oCFBM+xbShV2h5BdsMMeoWJUMh9uL2DEdnSRuxX90 B5+Hyjdx7Nxw8Gf7zR1dm74yuhVwv320vWMYxn+jxkekG09QlYeKzfCqAo3yPP+/ LXp//S51TOjYkAEPq/WWTDSBd3ZKdgJBlEQgGia1bSum+ND4LJXEb9ZCfUY1BwEG cNEqJQrQxviU3ozVX1q0GNWmBdpIELL590Q/k5Kv2xo7lmtSvK80gmsbXlIJXIln 3lJYA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=1KaDaMjPoZ6MKCh6EvhHnMN0DgVVmurQIgKE5VDrG fw=; b=Jg29Rhc49B3VX1frJwVh44LI/9ZnoqE7rR65iRXPn0qtReloDTCU5s5wC AVJ43OQBqYIgjHKmPpMIwMnTHw52ZVL/RvhEloKPSyVlEG9cMYZ80UkD9GbqHoOD 6E+bjs352aVjhkj73d6YbSvyN7G2YmGkUuXfhs1FU1CIfQx1gjyHfarBpm1kkZs8 08IdBry5XioNHHFFnodluN8HvoyY0MMuEYnXKzEQ+mNFAAdW8i5BzrVPBAohju1F EkoUO/pRgvJaBCJbmdy8zknPQGHpJAUXT9Dra21T/el3Qw41PKK9/8FO8bkV8rOn YKcKduwrdwbQLOwfde62leMCGvX0Q==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelhedgvdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 19:32:45 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:32:41 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 23:32:57 -0000

On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.
>>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the process documents to date.
>>>
>>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the IETF
>>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly the
>>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement
>>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable
>>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was
>>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't
>>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the
>>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a
>>> pro-temp interim replacement.
>>
>> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, we're
>> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specific
>> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF chair
>> or ISE.
> 
> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body must fill
> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an RSCE
> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's
> text proposal was pretty close.

Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:

###

The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:

* The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
* The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
* The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
* The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
   delegate appointed by the ISE
* The RFC Series Consulting Editor

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
voting members.

###

I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE, but I 
suppose there's no harm.

Peter


From nobody Tue Oct  5 18:13:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C6C3A0E92 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 18:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ykw_3eihsfht for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 18:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74A873A0E90 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 18:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id k26so960124pfi.5 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 18:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+9AZQsRpQbaNKjJ5pamEceQbbE02tUypQUqdt9eu3cI=; b=WNNZ+4Pr4XOUiEjMPcOwZdqGCEmJmd8fBha+PcqnAJMu552ro3ErblEhNFiEl7IFBC wUSF8b0qGBFA6XuwW+YxxITMDcZlZgBiUczL4JcgQbxHjTNg3Pcus9veiswkHi8TmDct I2rIY+pCjdV0gQ9o1h5xITx5pKEOzALzyJWfAiDNQAJhDldwydQsywBalez/e3hvK6yn X+XqWFDiGuwx3JXahW2ZV8NbgiLhhBM3yC3380yqft/peg8HQg1+UU6Ntct5WLHHRQe1 bAe5QQBTgFkCCzTSu2w6oW3PEg9udLgkXeJHR+D2yqIcGoaiquDUDlNmcA12d+VQz8N4 pCVQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+9AZQsRpQbaNKjJ5pamEceQbbE02tUypQUqdt9eu3cI=; b=pA5/EjVNARnC9FXXbw0PfbMh1cvj5vMfIMsu3lhO5vYJLoMiPKAqP8wnR7guLzC6EC /3C7JQL+jfJ46y0Z+6XSVx7I6jU2dqe0QMpyf3FVwHQAxX5AYpitL/z7BM4jaOv/Qyrp MK5+ojlC6POZVHpaaajL9HqTLammeMJQzAgAsP/DQzTEb+5QwUV2peTCxJHBIPa2c6Y0 eTseigjWmZkHkuKx1TYavMZbxlUUEmmQKjrGzNhMKWSQX6cULCUswy51AXTVkiRzBshw 9ddTeUAzY3hg9+rAWTZc2gVDB1E5dN6wphyRHr9y7x3Hg52pC2/J7X4Pt1CRpIBQusBY R4Hg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KoEGMhjr0819fC59NVDwbubrnVRDwWtASVgFyCOlpR6AKsycW fbO7r6FyueoFI4sRAyCycPcOujdvxdM9wg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzik42AA/YCwavxe/aO2Ll78rH9lBrUnb4vZ8cqondoFzDuuMbNwLteAJePXnAKZLBDmOuSBQ==
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9f46:0:b0:44c:7912:9b2e with SMTP id h6-20020aa79f46000000b0044c79129b2emr7550953pfr.11.1633482796557;  Tue, 05 Oct 2021 18:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h9sm3467891pjg.9.2021.10.05.18.13.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Oct 2021 18:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <16a9d4f3-06dc-0340-8df5-d98486d45752@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 14:13:11 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 01:13:20 -0000

wfm

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 06-Oct-21 12:32, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.
>>>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been documented in many of the process documents to date.
>>>>
>>>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the IETF
>>>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly the
>>>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement
>>>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable
>>>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was
>>>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't
>>>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the
>>>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a
>>>> pro-temp interim replacement.
>>>
>>> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, we're
>>> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specific
>>> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF chair
>>> or ISE.
>>
>> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body must fill
>> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an RSCE
>> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's
>> text proposal was pretty close.
> 
> Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:
> 
> ###
> 
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
> 
> * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
> 
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> 
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
> 
> ###
> 
> I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE, but I 
> suppose there's no harm.
> 
> Peter
> 


From nobody Tue Oct  5 18:40:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C94D3A0FE4 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 18:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=a65AfMVG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Dw21GZHx
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iwSFgnDraGv7 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 18:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 865753A0FE1 for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 18:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9105C0499; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 21:40:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Oct 2021 21:40:06 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=f 5Msxh0OUIEVpgxDO0RH14FvS1/bGxBP7eaysFbTdI8=; b=a65AfMVGP35F17mc4 uOagYW/pH975hYv8eTffHNn2KUt5FMUfgg7WRRknbVkPbZduI2j4MRwWnTEvZ2+Q TNwI+O2uKn37GI5sNUsWTYf8yPBgOfCb+Fe5WW2AGpO0HWhzYhTgYiQm3iQxEf4E CRMXHNrLKFrH9mk3oQ4g5/fyUTDNp8hEozp2h/HZYAtqyD4FEqJoCa8lJVQ/YVl5 CVeGQ1utPBaXPjIXztb4mjDIkVeuRDzBLPFkUtQ2qDQCj20YFWHYbtgMm3nPaedx ltjIBZmfOrOsn/tYps4sRfg20NLBOACWdvvQDPW2xQqfFL9zVStpOGUJr81Rs/Ib AK1Ag==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=f5Msxh0OUIEVpgxDO0RH14FvS1/bGxBP7eaysFbTd I8=; b=Dw21GZHxx+GwOGudS7dKqijPvU+g/Egd3mLY4zDwHp20eg9vtvbZGeGnh zkL2l8Z3odTcLQA59p7qr3bVZiGf3dQrHmUIMGSHfDthKN+QkZMHbYlTiCOQ02AH +bb9tEQoM642Mh0eyDfjywalL3nZWfBSvUaxyr4oI6Hs1nWep8uN51co5jM0mcHO kftJZODOpkH2Lt6KMZs31bBFMJ2ZnzwS4CGqi9S8/uN2WID8aIW861pDtTjtwt+p fkBU2WT7SGTwwQbydcvAqlx/JxYhqjaN3FBy7nQFts5wuyGaiiSX5wlx27J48CCt Ac+bSn7W7IheNz7BXI6jhWDlHdUxw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelhedggeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeugeefvdekteefgeekkeeggffgueetteehgedvgfffveeg kefgleehtdegteefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 21:40:05 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 19:40:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Russ Housley , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 01:40:13 -0000

Hi Russ, thanks for your review. Comments inline.

(Meta point for the chairs: should we open GitHub issues to track these?)

On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
> At the interim, I was asked to go through draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03 and make sure that it covers all of the topics in RFC 8782.  I bring my findings to the mail list for consideration.
> 
> 
> RFC 8728 says, "The IAB maintains its responsibilities as defined in [RFC2850]."  If this document is approved, that will not be the case.  I think that a section about the IAB should appear in Appendix B.

Good point. Here is proposed text:

Under earlier versions of the RFC Editor Model, the IAB was
responsible for oversight of the RFC Series and acted as a body
for final conflict esolution regarding the Series. The IAB's
uthority in these matters is described in the IAB's charter
{{RFC2850}}. Under version 2 of the Model, the IAB delegated some
of its authority to the RFC Series Oversight Committee (see below).
Under version 3 of the Model, authority for policy definition
resides with the RSWG as an independent venue for work by members
of the community (with approval of policy proposals as the
responsibility of the RSAB, representing the streams and the RSCE),
whereas authority for policy implementation ultimately resides with
the IETF LLC.

> RFC 8728 explain what a stream is, but the new document assumes this is already known to the reader.  I think this text can be added to the Introduction to close this gap:
> 
>     In this model, documents are produced and approved through multiple
>     document streams.  The stream manager for each stream is responsible
>     for the content of that stream.  The RFC Editor function is responsible for
>     the packaging and distribution of the documents.  As such, documents
>     from these streams are edited and published by the Production Center.
> 
> 
> RFC 8728 says, "The four streams that now exist are described in [RFC8729]."  I thin the Introduction should says this, and then immediately introduce the addition of the Editorial Stream.

Agreed.

> RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes:
> 
>     In undertaking this evolution, the IAB considered
>     changes that increase flexibility and operational support options,
>     provide for the orderly succession of the RFC Editor, and ensure the
>     continuity of the RFC Series, while maintaining RFC quality,
>     maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility,
>     reducing costs, and increasing cost transparency.  The model set
>     forth below describes the internal organization of the RFC Editor,
>     while remaining consistent with RFC 8729.
> 
> There is nothing in the new document that lays out similar principles.
> 
> Clearly, orderly succession of the RFC Editor is quite different in the new model, but I hope that we are trying to preserve the other things listed here.

This is somewhat conjectural, but here is proposed text:

In 2020, following up on meetings led by the RFC Series Editor
in 2019, the IAB formed an open program to conduct a community
discussion and consensus process for the further evolution of
the RFC Editor model. Under the auspices of this program, the
community considered changes that would increase transparency
and community input regarding the definition of policies for
the RFC Series as a whole, while at the same time ensuring the
continuity of the RFC Series, maintaining RFC quality,
maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility,
and clarifying lines of authority and responsibility.

> RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes:
> 
>     Note that RFC 8729 uses the term "RFC Editor function" or "RFC
>     Editor" as the collective set of responsibilities for which this memo
>     provides a model for internal organization.  This memo defines the
>     term "RFC Series Editor" or "Series Editor" for one of the
>     organizational components.
> 
> This would be a good addition to Section 3.1 of the new document.

I think this is covered by text in the appendix describing changes to 
the RFC Editor Model (which, following a suggestion from John Klensin, 
will be rearranged and rewritten compared to -03 of the draft):

## RFC Series Editor

Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section, the
responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor (RSE) as a person or
role (contrasted with the overall "RFC Editor function") are now
split or shared amongst the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone
or in combination). More specifically, the responsibilities of
the RFC Series Consulting Editor (RSCE) under version 3 of the RFC
Editor Model differ in many ways from the responsibilities of the
RFC Series Editor under version 2 of the Model. In general,
references in existing documents to the RSE can be taken as
referring to the "RFC Editor function" as described herein, but
should not be taken as referring to the RSCE.

> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.1 talks about how the RSE provides strategic leadership and management.  Some of this falls the the IETF Admin LLC, but strategic direction comes from community proposals to the RSWG. Something should be said in Appendix B.

As above, here is proposed text from my working copy (this section goes 
directly before the one about the RSE):

## RFC Editor Function

Several responsibilities previously assigned to the "RFC Editor"
or, more precisely, the "RFC Editor function" are now performed
by the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or in combination).
These include various aspects of strategic leadership (Section
2.1.1 of {{RFC8728}}), representation of the RFC Series (Section
2.1.2 of {{RFC8728}}), development of RFC production and
publication (Section 2.1.3 of {{RFC8728}}), development of the
RFC Series (Section 2.1.4 of {{RFC8728}}), operational oversight
(Section 3.3 of {{RFC8729}}), policy oversight (Section 3.4 of
{{RFC8729}}), the editing, processing, and publication of
documents (Section 4.2 of {{RFC8729}}), and development and
maintenance of series-wide guidelines and rules (Section 4.4 of
{{RFC8729}}). In addition, various details regarding these
responsibilities have been modified to accord with the new
framework defined in this document.

> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.2 talks about how the RSE represents the RFC Series.  Representation does not get assigned to any role.  If that is the intent, then something should be said in Appendix B.

I think we agreed to text like this:

 From time to time, individuals or organizations external to the IETF
and the broader RFC Series community may have questions about the RFC 
Series. Such inquiries should be directed to the 
rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org email alias and then handled by the 
appropriate bodies (e.g., RSAB, RPC) or individuals (e.g., RSWG chairs, 
RSCE).

> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to cover it.

I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the LLC, 
but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself (i.e., in 
the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.

> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about how the RSE supports development the RFC Series.  The RSCE offers advice on this topic, but I think, this falls to the RSWG. I cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to cover it.

By my reading, §2.1.4 defined aspects of the RSE's relationship with the 
community. But the RSWG *is* the community, so there's no longer any 
relationship to develop.

> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about RSE and Conflict of Interest.  This text or something like it should apply to the RSCE too.

Good catch, I'll add the text from §2.1.7 (changing RSE to RSCE).

> RFC 8728, Section 4.2 says:
> 
>     The RSE is responsible for managing the RFC Editor function to
>     operate within those budgets.
> 
> This is no longer the case, but I do not see anything in the RPC section that says it needs to operate within the IETF LLC-provided budget.

We have several sentences on this:

All matters of budget, timetable, and impact on its performance
targets, are between the RPC and IETF LLC.

And:

The IETF LLC develops the work definition (the Statement of Work)
for the RPC and manages the vendor selection process.  The work
definition is created within the IETF LLC budget and takes into
account the needs of stream managers as well as community input.

And:

The expenses discussed in this document are not new expenses. They
have been and remain part of the IETF LLC budget.

The RFC Series portion of the IETF LLC budget shall include funding
to support the RSCE, the RFC Production Center, and the Independent
Stream.

The IETF LLC has the responsibility to approve the total RFC Editor
budget (and the authority to deny it). All relevant parties must work
within the IETF LLC budgetary process.

Peter


From nobody Tue Oct  5 22:48:41 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61D43A131E for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 22:48:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMcY_Y9PTQdP for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 22:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 597073A131F for ; Tue,  5 Oct 2021 22:48:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1965mN2t1726347 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Oct 2021 07:48:24 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633499308; bh=3pMhqL2HpzqjasqHQNbZfGqkkjnlPIbvcswE+r7cVb0=; h=To:References:Cc:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=AoYGFkuCoSbaRvlYTIQVaPZPraEhUS7Q7r8dVmbrje+2Yg9IT25Ak/wDJrY/c0HpY fvzbEl6oHf0XTdt4/01dMzxPaztszUhxeExamAj5JOKn4KDk5EPDOnSEX0U2IoCU67 4f6WnjIXgaF8VUSHBDwo1Flc7Qdz2dcZnn7dCkJI=
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Russ Housley 
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 07:48:22 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PjojPxUx1mzUjYq7oaPcMlgdyfDEHEjG5"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 05:48:38 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--PjojPxUx1mzUjYq7oaPcMlgdyfDEHEjG5
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bCtObs2l1kVUESvThzCCHFm8coT4wPhzM";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Peter Saint-Andre ,
 Russ Housley 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com>
 <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>

--bCtObs2l1kVUESvThzCCHFm8coT4wPhzM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en-US

With two exceptions, as discussed in my comments below, your proposed=20
edits do not involve normative text, so I'd propose that they get=20
handled editorially.=C2=A0 Comments below.

On 06.10.21 03:40, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Hi Russ, thanks for your review. Comments inline.
>
> (Meta point for the chairs: should we open GitHub issues to track these=
?)
>
> On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>> At the interim, I was asked to go through=20
>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03 and make sure that it covers all of=20
>> the topics in RFC 8782.=C2=A0 I bring my findings to the mail list for=
=20
>> consideration.
>>
>>
>> RFC 8728 says, "The IAB maintains its responsibilities as defined in=20
>> [RFC2850]."=C2=A0 If this document is approved, that will not be the=20
>> case.=C2=A0 I think that a section about the IAB should appear in Appe=
ndix B.
>
> Good point. Here is proposed text:
>
> Under earlier versions of the RFC Editor Model, the IAB was
> responsible for oversight of the RFC Series and acted as a body
> for final conflict esolution regarding the Series. The IAB's
> uthority in these matters is described in the IAB's charter
> {{RFC2850}}. Under version 2 of the Model, the IAB delegated some
> of its authority to the RFC Series Oversight Committee (see below).
> Under version 3 of the Model, authority for policy definition
> resides with the RSWG as an independent venue for work by members


^^Expand RSWG, RSAB, RSCE on first use

vvv

> of the community (with approval of policy proposals as the
> responsibility of the RSAB, representing the streams and the RSCE),
> whereas authority for policy implementation ultimately resides with
> the IETF LLC.
>
>> RFC 8728 explain what a stream is, but the new document assumes this=20
>> is already known to the reader.=C2=A0 I think this text can be added t=
o=20
>> the Introduction to close this gap:
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In this model, documents are produced and approved =
through multiple
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 document streams.=C2=A0 The stream manager for each=
 stream is responsible
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for the content of that stream.=C2=A0 The RFC Edito=
r function is=20
>> responsible for
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the packaging and distribution of the documents.=C2=
=A0 As such, documents
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 from these streams are edited and published by the =
Production=20
>> Center.
>>
>>
>> RFC 8728 says, "The four streams that now exist are described in=20
>> [RFC8729]."=C2=A0 I thin the Introduction should says this, and then=20
>> immediately introduce the addition of the Editorial Stream.
>
> Agreed.


This requires a one line add in the introduction along the lines of

 =C2=A0 "The four streams that now exist are described in [RFC8729]. An=20
additional editorial stream is defined in this document."

>
>> RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes:
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In undertaking this evolution, the IAB considered
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 changes that increase flexibility and operational s=
upport options,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provide for the orderly succession of the RFC Edito=
r, and ensure the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 continuity of the RFC Series, while maintaining RFC=
 quality,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 maintaining timely processing, ensuring document ac=
cessibility,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reducing costs, and increasing cost transparency.=C2=
=A0 The model set
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 forth below describes the internal organization of =
the RFC Editor,
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 while remaining consistent with RFC 8729.
>>
>> There is nothing in the new document that lays out similar principles.=

>>
>> Clearly, orderly succession of the RFC Editor is quite different in=20
>> the new model, but I hope that we are trying to preserve the other=20
>> things listed here.
>
> This is somewhat conjectural, but here is proposed text:
>
> In 2020, following up on meetings led by the RFC Series Editor
> in 2019, the IAB formed an open program to conduct a community
> discussion and consensus process for the further evolution of
> the RFC Editor model. Under the auspices of this program, the
> community considered changes that would increase transparency
> and community input regarding the definition of policies for
> the RFC Series as a whole, while at the same time ensuring the
> continuity of the RFC Series, maintaining RFC quality,
> maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility,
> and clarifying lines of authority and responsibility.
>

ok by me.


>> RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes:
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note that RFC 8729 uses the term "RFC Editor functi=
on" or "RFC
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Editor" as the collective set of responsibilities f=
or which this=20
>> memo
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provides a model for internal organization.=C2=A0 T=
his memo defines the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 term "RFC Series Editor" or "Series Editor" for one=
 of the
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 organizational components.
>>
>> This would be a good addition to Section 3.1 of the new document.
>
> I think this is covered by text in the appendix describing changes to=20
> the RFC Editor Model (which, following a suggestion from John Klensin, =

> will be rearranged and rewritten compared to -03 of the draft):
>
> ## RFC Series Editor
>
> Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section, the
> responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor (RSE) as a person or
> role (contrasted with the overall "RFC Editor function") are now
> split or shared amongst the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone
> or in combination). More specifically, the responsibilities of
> the RFC Series Consulting Editor (RSCE) under version 3 of the RFC
> Editor Model differ in many ways from the responsibilities of the
> RFC Series Editor under version 2 of the Model. In general,
> references in existing documents to the RSE can be taken as
> referring to the "RFC Editor function" as described herein, but
> should not be taken as referring to the RSCE.

yes

>
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.1 talks about how the RSE provides strategic=20
>> leadership and management.=C2=A0 Some of this falls the the IETF Admin=
=20
>> LLC, but strategic direction comes from community proposals to the=20
>> RSWG. Something should be said in Appendix B.
>
> As above, here is proposed text from my working copy (this section=20
> goes directly before the one about the RSE):
>
> ## RFC Editor Function
>
> Several responsibilities previously assigned to the "RFC Editor"
> or, more precisely, the "RFC Editor function" are now performed
> by the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or in combination).
> These include various aspects of strategic leadership (Section
> 2.1.1 of {{RFC8728}}), representation of the RFC Series (Section
> 2.1.2 of {{RFC8728}}), development of RFC production and
> publication (Section 2.1.3 of {{RFC8728}}), development of the
> RFC Series (Section 2.1.4 of {{RFC8728}}), operational oversight
> (Section 3.3 of {{RFC8729}}), policy oversight (Section 3.4 of
> {{RFC8729}}), the editing, processing, and publication of
> documents (Section 4.2 of {{RFC8729}}), and development and
> maintenance of series-wide guidelines and rules (Section 4.4 of
> {{RFC8729}}). In addition, various details regarding these
> responsibilities have been modified to accord with the new
> framework defined in this document.


LGTM.

>
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.2 talks about how the RSE represents the RFC=20
>> Series.=C2=A0 Representation does not get assigned to any role.=C2=A0 =
If that=20
>> is the intent, then something should be said in Appendix B.
>
> I think we agreed to text like this:
>
> From time to time, individuals or organizations external to the IETF
> and the broader RFC Series community may have questions about the RFC=20
> Series. Such inquiries should be directed to the=20
> rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org email alias and then handled by the=20
> appropriate bodies (e.g., RSAB, RPC) or individuals (e.g., RSWG=20
> chairs, RSCE).


Yes, and we specifically chose not to address outreach at this time.


>
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC=20
>> Production Center.=C2=A0 This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I =

>> cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.=C2=A0 We need to add=20
>> something to cover it.
>
> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the LLC, =

> but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself (i.e.,=20
> in the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.


I'm not sure what "develops" means either, and I propose that the text=20
in 8728 should simply be dropped (no change to the draft). This could be =

viewed as a normative decision.


>
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about how the RSE supports development=20
>> the RFC Series.=C2=A0 The RSCE offers advice on this topic, but I thin=
k,=20
>> this falls to the RSWG. I cannot find anything to confirm that=20
>> opinion.=C2=A0 We need to add something to cover it.
>
> By my reading, =C2=A72.1.4 defined aspects of the RSE's relationship wi=
th=20
> the community. But the RSWG *is* the community, so there's no longer=20
> any relationship to develop.

My suggestion is a slight mod to the bullet list in the introduction as=20
follows:

OLD

 =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The RSWG proposes policies that govern the RFC Seri=
es as a whole,
 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with input from the community, the RSAB, =
and the RSCE.

NEW

 =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The RSWG proposes policies that govern development =
and evolution=20
of the RFC Series as a whole,
 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with input from the community, the RSAB, =
and the RSCE.

Eliot

>
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about RSE and Conflict of Interest.=C2=A0=
=20
>> This text or something like it should apply to the RSCE too.
>
> Good catch, I'll add the text from =C2=A72.1.7 (changing RSE to RSCE).
>
>> RFC 8728, Section 4.2 says:
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RSE is responsible for managing the RFC Editor =
function to
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 operate within those budgets.
>>
>> This is no longer the case, but I do not see anything in the RPC=20
>> section that says it needs to operate within the IETF LLC-provided=20
>> budget.
>
> We have several sentences on this:
>
> All matters of budget, timetable, and impact on its performance
> targets, are between the RPC and IETF LLC.
>
> And:
>
> The IETF LLC develops the work definition (the Statement of Work)
> for the RPC and manages the vendor selection process.=C2=A0 The work
> definition is created within the IETF LLC budget and takes into
> account the needs of stream managers as well as community input.
>
> And:
>
> The expenses discussed in this document are not new expenses. They
> have been and remain part of the IETF LLC budget.
>
> The RFC Series portion of the IETF LLC budget shall include funding
> to support the RSCE, the RFC Production Center, and the Independent
> Stream.
>
> The IETF LLC has the responsibility to approve the total RFC Editor
> budget (and the authority to deny it). All relevant parties must work
> within the IETF LLC budgetary process.
>
> Peter
>


--bCtObs2l1kVUESvThzCCHFm8coT4wPhzM--

--PjojPxUx1mzUjYq7oaPcMlgdyfDEHEjG5
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFdOKYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejN9
dAgAxkjvBkBN0Aoxa2E28JhBZaxpqDV61AK24mUe7FZHXC+ZFDwpoipiM7gBTAlMMx7Mj7cNB7Bz
p7PZPWlKLHQAXYGgFyCyq++abBkyRg6EkM18FsUuGIX5mBHeyjdCb2uPBpBFga+OzGqMX1XFQNlk
dxbRhWaadHUpBSN9jhnYas4TSVGpDyXE4xIhn8mWJmcLWTtPtE4uyaaTJaIPSc45f5JInAN8BBU3
hby3iNwq8FI/kmQMuN3n+8nqCFSyLxNCcJEDAWvo9oGVP8AhXl6vuFDkl4H8jFWkg4PH7kqErpgA
WR8tXHXDKzngWxqN/OoXKk91F1LzmqCjz/PzjseUoQ==
=cBfB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--PjojPxUx1mzUjYq7oaPcMlgdyfDEHEjG5--


From nobody Wed Oct  6 00:45:59 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE823A1672 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 00:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0D34j2ADi6U3 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 00:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71F993A1679 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 00:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p5dec2b49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([93.236.43.73] helo=emb-w4epjhc9.fritz.box); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mY1cU-0003yo-Sh; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 09:45:42 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 09:45:41 +0200
Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com> 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1633506346;e282a423;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mY1cU-0003yo-Sh
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 07:45:54 -0000

This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add another =
sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected to usually make any =
approvals at full quorum, so maybe:

OLD
The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
voting members.

NEW
While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually done =
under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under exceptional =
circumstances.

Does that help?

Mirja



> On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E =
Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if =
there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from =
functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body =
(IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. =
There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether =
they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define =
ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB =
on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind =
that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the =
proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.
>>>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically =
must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been =
documented in many of the process documents to date.
>>>>=20
>>>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the =
IETF
>>>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly =
the
>>>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a =
replacement
>>>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable
>>>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person =
was
>>>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I =
don't
>>>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace =
the
>>>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a
>>>> pro-temp interim replacement.
>>>=20
>>> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, =
we're
>>> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specific
>>> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF =
chair
>>> or ISE.
>> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body must =
fill
>> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an RSCE
>> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's
>> text proposal was pretty close.
>=20
> Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:
>=20
> ###
>=20
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>=20
> * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>  delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE, but =
I suppose there's no harm.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Wed Oct  6 00:57:53 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9330C3A16E5 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 00:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id isY_VSdfckq7 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 00:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85AD13A16E0 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 00:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=CDcoUD2deTkHKAL1Cb9TwrLBh0tbDqGIVCDgcShPtCA=; b=RzOKj/bwV4031jzlXOIFxUtfUa gFb0EcTxLdn/XlaCR5BKpKb15CbrRRa5Z9gWgrr48hGD9eypclmHE+uEkLsd2hf2V8bTLw873A3dM 72oUR+9KT7my8PQHE8DuhChC9sIZgCgN7AIWa+LHEOUxayfxgQG38LlgSaIzE2qtnZy1RU4Y/u8Um fYC0mgk+1IAn+7lr9MHvBGTALqRv5qx1svUY2Gzh2N2P0Gc4Klju9zZTLUWDxL7xcqUNUldXOGhAx zRKOe4yJy406mdkxF0RJBgucilvuc991ChrzrimVvv76BejQUEclhbieOzFlV5m7ihxBBqN0s1mzd xtEmyjzQ==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=39771 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mY1o2-0001sW-6A; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:57:38 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:57:32 +0100
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>  
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 07:57:51 -0000

Hi,

Mirja=E2=80=99s text helps, but I=E2=80=99d much prefer that the RSAB =
required all voting members to be quorate. For a strategy-setting body, =
there shouldn=E2=80=99t be time critical documents to approve.

Colin



> On 6 Oct 2021, at 08:45, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote:
>=20
> This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add another =
sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected to usually make any =
approvals at full quorum, so maybe:
>=20
> OLD
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>=20
> NEW
> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =
its
> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.
>=20
> Does that help?
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>>=20
>> On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E =
Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if =
there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from =
functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body =
(IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. =
There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether =
they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define =
ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>>>>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB =
on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind =
that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the =
proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.
>>>>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically =
must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been =
documented in many of the process documents to date.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the =
IETF
>>>>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly =
the
>>>>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a =
replacement
>>>>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not =
comfortable
>>>>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person =
was
>>>>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I =
don't
>>>>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace =
the
>>>>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a
>>>>> pro-temp interim replacement.
>>>>=20
>>>> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, =
we're
>>>> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a =
specific
>>>> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF =
chair
>>>> or ISE.
>>> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body =
must fill
>>> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an =
RSCE
>>> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's
>>> text proposal was pretty close.
>>=20
>> Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:
>>=20
>> ###
>>=20
>> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>>=20
>> * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
>> * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
>> * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
>> * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>> delegate appointed by the ISE
>> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>>=20
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>=20
>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>> voting members.
>>=20
>> ###
>>=20
>> I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE, but =
I suppose there's no harm.
>>=20
>> Peter
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Wed Oct  6 01:31:13 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBA03A17C6 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 01:31:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WpOwCLgaMvG6 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 01:31:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00DDD3A17C5 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 01:31:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:50db:7007:5e57:3135] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:50db:7007:5e57:3135]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1968UsUx1804509 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:30:54 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633509055; bh=t1nkgt6UE0BIRyb/DgoCfneHI9ufiHL7H7yqM0iL/Ck=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=P8muW9987kEbPGKAiB12x8zUUr/YspkaQGGNLWNIXEmtdTILN1NnsIlObtqa0bM7k dDL0Ds5AG/+xUDwU40849ekzAGvyc8TIOCdaN/xbgzjy+88F2GFwD7u5I5MiOhzc55 VEMLDoTRrMuoBX1J9OdnpHuGa5GfOpusKmUX6jvA=
Message-ID: <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:30:51 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------RFaSUATp90nzeA9gfCjpe6cC"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:31:11 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------RFaSUATp90nzeA9gfCjpe6cC
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------UA5D1pMVyzL0GIbh9UUx7Ld5";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
Message-ID: <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com>
 <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org>
 <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com>
 <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org>
 <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com>
 <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org>
 <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com>
 <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org>
 <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk>
 <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net>
 <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
In-Reply-To: <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>

--------------UA5D1pMVyzL0GIbh9UUx7Ld5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------UA5D1pMVyzL0GIbh9UUx7Ld5--

--------------RFaSUATp90nzeA9gfCjpe6cC
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFdXrsFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOn
7QgAlthETitwwQ9BPn6y9JulpXwsmYoUADKrVIfkOnb3oAlSRP1LV4o+cz2ngUnhartIX0H/Hncd
bEHebS4qBdO/CGCxNKmedkdZRC+vNAkZm2DrEBYck3KG1qwILL9lB0lZ64WHpsggkOSatLsVITAR
FjdpAl110FSRsV8WxDkKfoKGL5FR2FwDXi7dMWEBw2fk3aoJG18YMeLWFleycC9skZ2UfkNHXkhD
RRgM6It5WlbMOI4zm8jHG+A72hZXvHGHir+uq7FXb1QIK+nhoXuf+qocVg+8xXH0re2EET+tDn/g
uZVKc6M4Gx9Gdm1hMlfucDnupXe6x3HA6qtBRF9D7w==
=Akcx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------RFaSUATp90nzeA9gfCjpe6cC--


From nobody Wed Oct  6 01:39:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D323A180D for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 01:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NDHL4eKPwjZX for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 01:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72C4C3A180C for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 01:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1968dD8t1808581 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:39:13 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633509554; bh=RyunyKa8BZxIN9Q892Cd2IWpTgr3W3VTe/3oCBSnD0s=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UkFsRiJvMqbXDMVLO2S9wgxKfpyyK0G5+TRBgDXy/CCNSf02/9eQhKpjC2oslkf1D p7ihCWdXVOdWdqbAxFV/aVsdu5mgmgAC4YGuroBAw1IA3oO6g6Gzzkpg+Q50Rk6+kt DdNF2EYDztSMJQBghgBvM07aocm1qPks6wVeb8Cg=
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:39:10 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wZbjqh3iLwBt0KGnIAnzRQyEQtnL23DmI"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:39:24 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--wZbjqh3iLwBt0KGnIAnzRQyEQtnL23DmI
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="EIeWGVErqoTmUHen6SjW0tA03f5ewidkx";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org>
 <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com>
 <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org>
 <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com>
 <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org>
 <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk>
 <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net>
 <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>

--EIeWGVErqoTmUHen6SjW0tA03f5ewidkx
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------74E2C4E1BE942D77121D2D2E"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------74E2C4E1BE942D77121D2D2E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just to add- my concerns extend to both Mirja's text and Colin's=20
amendment.=C2=A0 They are both non-starters for me.=C2=A0 I can settle fo=
r short=20
delays as I proposed, but organizations must be properly motivated to do =

their jobs, and not become obstacles to others doing theirs.

Eliot

On 06.10.21 10:30, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi,
>
> 
>
> I would not support these changes for the very many reasons I have=20
> already mentioned, and I don't believe I am alone.=C2=A0 I prefer the t=
ext=20
> Peter has offered because it properly motivates the constituent=20
> organizations to do the right thing.=C2=A0 The text below does the oppo=
site.
>
> Eliot
>
> On 06.10.21 09:57, Colin Perkins wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Mirja=E2=80=99s text helps, but I=E2=80=99d much prefer that the RSAB =
required all=20
>> voting members to be quorate. For a strategy-setting body, there=20
>> shouldn=E2=80=99t be time critical documents to approve.
>>
>> Colin
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 08:45, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote=
:
>>>
>>> This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add another=20
>>> sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected to usually make =

>>> any approvals at full quorum, so maybe:
>>>
>>> OLD
>>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>>> voting members.
>>>
>>> NEW
>>> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =

>>> its
>>> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually=20
>>> done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under=20
>>> exceptional circumstances.
>>>
>>> Does that help?
>>>
>>> Mirja
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter Saint-Andre =20
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E=20
>>>>>>>>>> Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if =

>>>>>>>>>> there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from =

>>>>>>>>>> functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*=C2=A0 a=20
>>>>>>>>>> standing body (IESG for the IETF stream,
>>>>>>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP.=20
>>>>>>>>>> There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that,=20
>>>>>>>>>> or whether they need a hot standby; just that they must do=20
>>>>>>>>>> it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't=20
>>>>>>>>>> define it, that's OK too.]
>>>>>>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the=20
>>>>>>>>> RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I=20
>>>>>>>>> can get behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion=20
>>>>>>>>> by just > reading the proposal, so perhaps some additional=20
>>>>>>>>> text would help.
>>>>>>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they=20
>>>>>>>> logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't=20
>>>>>>>> think that has been documented in many of the process documents =

>>>>>>>> to date.
>>>>>>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one=20
>>>>>>> the IETF
>>>>>>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall=20
>>>>>>> correctly the
>>>>>>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a=20
>>>>>>> replacement
>>>>>>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortab=
le
>>>>>>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person =

>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I=20
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly=20
>>>>>>> replace the
>>>>>>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a=

>>>>>>> pro-temp interim replacement.
>>>>>> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the=20
>>>>>> ISE, we're
>>>>>> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specif=
ic
>>>>>> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the=20
>>>>>> IRTF chair
>>>>>> or ISE.
>>>>> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body=20
>>>>> must fill
>>>>> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an RS=
CE
>>>>> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's=

>>>>> text proposal was pretty close.
>>>> Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>>>>
>>>> * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
>>>> * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
>>>> * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
>>>> * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>>>> delegate appointed by the ISE
>>>> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>>>>
>>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>>
>>>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>>>> voting members.
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE,=20
>>>> but I suppose there's no harm.
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--------------74E2C4E1BE942D77121D2D2E
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
Just to add- my concerns extend to both Mirja's text and Colin's
      amendment.=C2=A0 They are both non-starters for me.=C2=A0 I can set=
tle for
      short delays as I proposed, but organizations must be properly
      motivated to do their jobs, and not become obstacles to others
      doing theirs.

    
Eliot

    

    
On 06.10.21 10:30, Eliot Lear wrote:
    

    
Hi,
      

      

      <no hats on>
      

      

      I would not support these changes for the very many reasons I have
      already mentioned, and I don't believe I am alone.=C2=A0 I prefer t=
he
      text Peter has offered because it properly motivates the
      constituent organizations to do the right thing.=C2=A0 The text bel=
ow
      does the opposite.
      

      

      Eliot
      

      

      On 06.10.21 09:57, Colin Perkins wrote:
      

      
Hi,
        

        

        Mirja=E2=80=99s text helps, but I=E2=80=99d much prefer that the =
RSAB required
        all voting members to be quorate. For a strategy-setting body,
        there shouldn=E2=80=99t be time critical documents to approve.
        

        

        Colin
        

        

        

        

        
On 6 Oct 2021, at 08:45, Mirja
          Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
          

          

          This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add
          another sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected
          to usually make any approvals at full quorum, so maybe:
          

          

          OLD
          

          The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of
          its
          

          voting members.
          

          

          NEW
          

          While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or
          more of its
          

          voting members, it is expected that document approvals are
          usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical
          documents under exceptional circumstances.
          

          

          Does that help?
          

          

          Mirja
          

          

          

          

          
On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter
            Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
            

            

            On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
            

            
On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter
              Saint-Andre wrote:
              

              
On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian
                Huitema wrote:
                

                
On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E
                  Carpenter wrote:
                  

                  
On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark
                    Nottingham wrote:
                    

                    

                      
On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm=
,
                        Brian E
                        Carpenter<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><=
/a>=C2=A0
                        wrote:
                        

                        

                        Which, I think, is why it appears to be common
                        ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that
                        should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For
                        all the other positions, there*is*=C2=A0 a standi=
ng
                        body (IESG for the IETF stream,
                        

                        IAB for the others) so they can just appoint
                        someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to
                        tell them how to do that, or whether they need a
                        hot standby; just that they must do it. [I
                        wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we
                        don't define it, that's OK too.]
                        

                      

                      If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a
                      delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair
                      or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that.
                      However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just
                      > reading the proposal, so perhaps some
                      additional text would help.
                      

                    

                    Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE,
                    they logically must appoint their (acting)
                    replacements. I don't think that has been documented
                    in many of the process documents to date.
                    

                  

                  Did we not have a case a few years back when a
                  delegate to one the IETF
                  

                  boards just disappeared for several months? If I
                  recall correctly the
                  

                  whole operation went into paralysis because nominating
                  a replacement
                  

                  required first recalling the incumbent. People were
                  not comfortable
                  

                  doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if
                  the person was
                  

                  just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that
                  precedent, I don't
                  

                  think that in the same circumstances the IAB would
                  quickly replace the
                  

                  IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process
                  to appoint a
                  

                  pro-temp interim replacement.
                  

                

                AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair
                or the ISE, we're
                

                talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily)
                fill a specific
                

                role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities
                of the IRTF chair
                

                or ISE.
                

              

              Correct. And I think a simple statement that the
              appointing body must fill
              

              vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence
              of an RSCE
              

              will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying.
              Adrian's
              

              text proposal was pretty close.
              

            

            Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:
            

            

            ###
            

            

            The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
            

            

            * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
            

            * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
            

            * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF
            Chair
            

            * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or
            their
            

            delegate appointed by the ISE
            

            * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
            

            

            The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
            for
            

            appointing delegates, such as provision for an open
            nominations
            

            period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate
            for
            

            any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing
            body
            

            should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's
            term.
            

            Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are
            seated at
            

            all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed,
            if
            

            necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF
            chair or
            

            ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a
            delegate,
            

            this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing
            body
            

            for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
            

            

            The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of
            its
            

            voting members.
            

            

            ###
            

            

            I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the
            RSCE, but I suppose there's no harm.
            

            

            Peter
            

            

            --=C2=A0

            Rfced-future mailing list
            

            Rfced-future@iab.org
            

            https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc=
ed-future
            

          

        

      

      

      

    

  


--------------74E2C4E1BE942D77121D2D2E--

--EIeWGVErqoTmUHen6SjW0tA03f5ewidkx--

--wZbjqh3iLwBt0KGnIAnzRQyEQtnL23DmI
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFdYK4FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPR
YQf+KSsAGqFeYq/VuUATEcW6jCU8NCKVYKmYqYSPTmUoayHBN1W89zSURTocEp2oNcwHsB8SpQVS
6owNSd1pF13yFMqs3wigbhhijwQEg/BMk8ezIRaAwzPrHdQ6RZxDvMgENw7mScWVUiKwus9mOcx4
WXqPINu0cw+fPzuwBdEFZe4M7wSQkMlRw+XooUzbTJZj73OcPJS0Lb9S3AxKiOrH09oQL1PXvH8k
yJOL0U18xeULrZPTuQbSf3UniHP6+sVOw7hfA4SWNBHABDxJkMwAOXxowW83C7ZPAL1pUkrW8LLF
nTstgmRirl61xZtyTyWGduJrg3yOUS59+BQJSLbpUA==
=8X62
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--wZbjqh3iLwBt0KGnIAnzRQyEQtnL23DmI--


From nobody Wed Oct  6 02:33:56 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59913A192A for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:33:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AQHdczdxpM_r for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:33:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF9093A191B for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:33:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee72c9600746468885e836ee4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e72c:9600:7464:6888:5e83:6ee4]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mY3J1-0003vE-EJ; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 11:33:43 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 11:33:41 +0200
Cc: Colin Perkins , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch> 
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1633512827;533e130e;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mY3J1-0003vE-EJ
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 09:33:55 -0000

For me the point point is that even a longer delay is okay if that =
doesn=E2=80=99t really have any real implications. Let=E2=80=99s assume =
there is a unexpected vacancy for either the ISE or IRTF chair and the =
search process to find a new person is about 2-3 month (which is normal =
when doing "their job properly" as you say below): why not wait for the =
new ISE or IRTF chair if there is nothing urgent rather than trying to =
find some interim replacement for the RASB?



> On 6. Oct 2021, at 10:39, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> Just to add- my concerns extend to both Mirja's text and Colin's =
amendment.  They are both non-starters for me.  I can settle for short =
delays as I proposed, but organizations must be properly motivated to do =
their jobs, and not become obstacles to others doing theirs.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> On 06.10.21 10:30, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Hi,=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I would not support these changes for the very many reasons I have =
already mentioned, and I don't believe I am alone.  I prefer the text =
Peter has offered because it properly motivates the constituent =
organizations to do the right thing.  The text below does the opposite.=20=

>>=20
>> Eliot=20
>>=20
>> On 06.10.21 09:57, Colin Perkins wrote:=20
>>> Hi,=20
>>>=20
>>> Mirja=E2=80=99s text helps, but I=E2=80=99d much prefer that the =
RSAB required all voting members to be quorate. For a strategy-setting =
body, there shouldn=E2=80=99t be time critical documents to approve.=20
>>>=20
>>> Colin=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 08:45, Mirja Kuehlewind  =
wrote:=20
>>>>=20
>>>> This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add another =
sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected to usually make any =
approvals at full quorum, so maybe:=20
>>>>=20
>>>> OLD=20
>>>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its=20
>>>> voting members.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> NEW=20
>>>> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more =
of its=20
>>>> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.          =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Does that help?=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Mirja=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:=20
>>>>>> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:=20
>>>>>>> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:=20
>>>>>>>> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:=20
>>>>>>>>> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E =
Carpenter  wrote:=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that =
if there is suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from =
functioning. For all the other positions, there*is*  a standing body =
(IESG for the IETF stream,=20
>>>>>>>>>>> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. =
There's no need for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether =
they need a hot standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define =
ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]=20
>>>>>>>>>> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the =
RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get =
behind that. However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading =
the proposal, so perhaps some additional text would help.=20
>>>>>>>>> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they =
logically must appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that =
has been documented in many of the process documents to date.=20
>>>>>>>> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one =
the IETF=20
>>>>>>>> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall =
correctly the=20
>>>>>>>> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a =
replacement=20
>>>>>>>> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not =
comfortable=20
>>>>>>>> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the =
person was=20
>>>>>>>> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I =
don't=20
>>>>>>>> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly =
replace the=20
>>>>>>>> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint =
a=20
>>>>>>>> pro-temp interim replacement.=20
>>>>>>> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the =
ISE, we're=20
>>>>>>> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a =
specific=20
>>>>>>> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the =
IRTF chair=20
>>>>>>> or ISE.=20
>>>>>> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body =
must fill=20
>>>>>> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an =
RSCE=20
>>>>>> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. =
Adrian's=20
>>>>>> text proposal was pretty close.=20
>>>>> Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ###=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG=20
>>>>> * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB=20
>>>>> * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair=20
>>>>> * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their=20
>>>>> delegate appointed by the ISE=20
>>>>> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for=20
>>>>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations=20
>>>>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for=20
>>>>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body=20
>>>>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.=20=

>>>>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at=20=

>>>>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if=20
>>>>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or=20=

>>>>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,=20
>>>>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body=20=

>>>>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its=20
>>>>> voting members.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ###=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE, =
but I suppose there's no harm.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Peter=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list=20
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org=20
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future=20
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Wed Oct  6 02:50:05 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF423A199B for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6vf8aTlMoz6 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:49:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D85343A1999 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:49:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id x27so8001596lfu.5 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 02:49:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YgO1cuQ8GvlQOwxPCBIG9SXDq5OLPxdxZ7azSHgPRI4=; b=RXgNwZ5ITpYCCkyvJSuD/03rjwIZc1gJr73KvwG3XGbNgoPGMZTx4Gvrn4rOqVMany FRVeBCRj1XKZbgaU8ZZROqjis8M+SDs+7MA5bG8ggv/AJXGAz+OFrKSaL6VnwQJcDyLm SdfP5Vvk8JvQEqAacBXTi+4FETCsJXMGmhjh2QstdE8szAIKYipi4W4YcO08vnLjsdwT DF1ZQ741cLtZTpUUm6qTlR67SV27A2JiL+LA6A8zBW5sWsiFU3XnaoRXQTQQw3UZqd7M DBUDvClSpY3wds1GWpEpKq7cKkNWvxl6CciiZj6B/ZFvHLp6r/iUkjw/ziP/RMGFckjr uOmQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YgO1cuQ8GvlQOwxPCBIG9SXDq5OLPxdxZ7azSHgPRI4=; b=VLbTpf/eeNEtgYsGMZcwfXuB2kudrF8WeBf909DVOiRZXE87cOohRH2J7lzOrTyKNO WS05d2yKZj5nKNmYYwzTQcNeF6VDJCrfDWe2hUvUjK27Sx/jetzlQU0W1IXvfWQN+5Dv sWR/BwK22+wu7uXYubbcQuZ9t4LoArVCQs5pgH2U1A8k3wDWnul62DCwYmfCVKFWADkb SJUyPYRr9Ffhxgl9OCYYAC9HcmkiYY3qp2SCXVMvDIFvLMSE9XKjfUS8SzZ302qes4QY mzITBQL3YcGQqiDP8KC1M++/UX0jxhMiKr4jIc/LwSY0OSTgvxAbDd6yMIVp1lO2Hnlz PZQg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TitlvjkJuMefn2eoEVJLqlPpTPGHUvG8IsFDNXTYpv4JYGAdG r7LrP2RqcPIs7ceV13oOWyV0mNiYKMVNegdCDI7CYvH5VBo=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzToNGyDXMQ9iF2zXERrKODmqzAQ5eew978cPTzJg/F5ZhO40j8NuNaKJxyYGIpETtt7Bo5Stu/1kns7Jp2kRc=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:747:: with SMTP id c7mr8548125lfs.80.1633513790521;  Wed, 06 Oct 2021 02:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch> 
In-Reply-To: 
From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 22:49:37 +1300
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind ,  rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000038466305cdac1122"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 09:50:00 -0000

--00000000000038466305cdac1122
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be replaced
rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse for the
other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would be
appointed for unplanned vacancies.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, 21:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:

> Just to add- my concerns extend to both Mirja's text and Colin's
> amendment.  They are both non-starters for me.  I can settle for short
> delays as I proposed, but organizations must be properly motivated to do
> their jobs, and not become obstacles to others doing theirs.
>
> Eliot
> On 06.10.21 10:30, Eliot Lear wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> 
>
> I would not support these changes for the very many reasons I have alread=
y
> mentioned, and I don't believe I am alone.  I prefer the text Peter has
> offered because it properly motivates the constituent organizations to do
> the right thing.  The text below does the opposite.
>
> Eliot
>
> On 06.10.21 09:57, Colin Perkins wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Mirja=E2=80=99s text helps, but I=E2=80=99d much prefer that the RSAB req=
uired all voting
> members to be quorate. For a strategy-setting body, there shouldn=E2=80=
=99t be time
> critical documents to approve.
>
> Colin
>
>
>
> On 6 Oct 2021, at 08:45, Mirja Kuehlewind 
>  wrote:
>
> This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add another
> sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected to usually make any
> approvals at full quorum, so maybe:
>
> OLD
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>
> NEW
> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually done
> under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under exceptional
> circumstances.
>
> Does that help?
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
> On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter Saint-Andre 
>  wrote:
>
> On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>
> On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>
> On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:
>
> On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>
> On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
> On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm, Brian E Carpenter
>   wrote:
>
> Which, I think, is why it appears to be common ground that if there is
> suddenly no RSCE, that should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For all
> the other positions, there*is*  a standing body (IESG for the IETF stream=
,
> IAB for the others) so they can just appoint someone ASAP. There's no nee=
d
> for this draft to tell them how to do that, or whether they need a hot
> standby; just that they must do it. [I wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks,
> but if we don't define it, that's OK too.]
>
> If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a delegate to the RSAB on behal=
f
> of the IRTF Chair or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that. However=
,
> I didn't get to that conclusion by just > reading the proposal, so perhap=
s
> some additional text would help.
>
> Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE, they logically must
> appoint their (acting) replacements. I don't think that has been document=
ed
> in many of the process documents to date.
>
> Did we not have a case a few years back when a delegate to one the IETF
> boards just disappeared for several months? If I recall correctly the
> whole operation went into paralysis because nominating a replacement
> required first recalling the incumbent. People were not comfortable
> doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if the person was
> just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that precedent, I don't
> think that in the same circumstances the IAB would quickly replace the
> IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process to appoint a
> pro-temp interim replacement.
>
> AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair or the ISE, we're
> talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily) fill a specific
> role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities of the IRTF chair
> or ISE.
>
> Correct. And I think a simple statement that the appointing body must fil=
l
> vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence of an RSCE
> will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying. Adrian's
> text proposal was pretty close.
>
> Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal:
>
> ###
>
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>
> * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
> delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>
> ###
>
> I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the RSCE, but I
> suppose there's no harm.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--00000000000038466305cdac1122
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction c=
annot be replaced rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't =
see any excuse for the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that actin=
g members would be appointed for unplanned vacancies.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Wed, 6 Oct 202=
1, 21:39 Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch&g=
t; wrote:

 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    
Just to add- my concerns extend to both Mirja's text and Colin&#=
39;s
      amendment.=C2=A0 They are both non-starters for me.=C2=A0 I can settl=
e for
      short delays as I proposed, but organizations must be properly
      motivated to do their jobs, and not become obstacles to others
      doing theirs.

    
Eliot

    

    
On 06.10.21 10:30, Eliot Lear wrote:

    

    
Hi,
      

      

      <no hats on>
      

      

      I would not support these changes for the very many reasons I have
      already mentioned, and I don't believe I am alone.=C2=A0 I prefer=
 the
      text Peter has offered because it properly motivates the
      constituent organizations to do the right thing.=C2=A0 The text below
      does the opposite.
      

      

      Eliot
      

      

      On 06.10.21 09:57, Colin Perkins wrote:
      

      
Hi,
        

        

        Mirja=E2=80=99s text helps, but I=E2=80=99d much prefer that the RS=
AB required
        all voting members to be quorate. For a strategy-setting body,
        there shouldn=E2=80=99t be time critical documents to approve.
        

        

        Colin
        

        

        

        

        
On 6 Oct 2021, at 08:45, Mirja
          Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
          

          

          This text below fine for me. Just to be clear we could add
          another sentence at the end spelling out that it is expected
          to usually make any approvals at full quorum, so maybe:
          

          

          OLD
          

          The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of
          its
          

          voting members.
          

          

          NEW
          

          While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or
          more of its
          

          voting members, it is expected that document approvals are
          usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical
          documents under exceptional circumstances.
          

          

          Does that help?
          

          

          Mirja
          

          

          

          

          
On 6. Oct 2021, at 01:32, Peter
            Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
            

            

            On 10/5/21 4:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
            

            
On 06-Oct-21 08:35, Peter
              Saint-Andre wrote:
              

              
On 10/5/21 12:33 PM, Christian
                Huitema wrote:
                

                
On 10/4/2021 8:51 PM, Brian E
                  Carpenter wrote:
                  

                  
On 05-Oct-21 15:40, Mark
                    Nottingham wrote:
                    

                    

                      
On 5 Oct 2021, at 1:15 pm,
                        Brian E
                        Carpenter<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g=
t;=C2=A0
                        wrote:
                        

                        

                        Which, I think, is why it appears to be common
                        ground that if there is suddenly no RSCE, that
                        should not stop the RSAB from functioning. For
                        all the other positions, there*is*=C2=A0 a standing
                        body (IESG for the IETF stream,
                        

                        IAB for the others) so they can just appoint
                        someone ASAP. There's no need for this draft to
                        tell them how to do that, or whether they need a
                        hot standby; just that they must do it. [I
                        wanted to define ASAP as 4 weeks, but if we
                        don't define it, that's OK too.]
                        

                      

                      If the intent is that the IAB can appoint a
                      delegate to the RSAB on behalf of the IRTF Chair
                      or ISE in their absence, I can get behind that.
                      However, I didn't get to that conclusion by just
                      > reading the proposal, so perhaps some
                      additional text would help.
                      

                    

                    Since the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair and the ISE,
                    they logically must appoint their (acting)
                    replacements. I don't think that has been documente=
d
                    in many of the process documents to date.
                    

                  

                  Did we not have a case a few years back when a
                  delegate to one the IETF
                  

                  boards just disappeared for several months? If I
                  recall correctly the
                  

                  whole operation went into paralysis because nominating
                  a replacement
                  

                  required first recalling the incumbent. People were
                  not comfortable
                  

                  doing that merely because of missed meetings, what if
                  the person was
                  

                  just recovering from an illness, etc.? Given that
                  precedent, I don't
                  

                  think that in the same circumstances the IAB would
                  quickly replace the
                  

                  IRTF chair or the ISE. And AFAIK there is no process
                  to appoint a
                  

                  pro-temp interim replacement.
                  

                

                AIUI, we're not talking about replacing the IRTF chair
                or the ISE, we're
                

                talking about appointing a delegate to (temporarily)
                fill a specific
                

                role on the RSAB, which is one of the responsibilities
                of the IRTF chair
                

                or ISE.
                

              

              Correct. And I think a simple statement that the
              appointing body must fill
              

              vacancies ASAP and that the RSAB is quorate in the absence
              of an RSCE
              

              will do what we want without (+1 to Mirja) overspecifying.
              Adrian's
              

              text proposal was pretty close.
              

            

            Here's a slightly modified version of Adrian's proposal=
:
            

            

            ###
            

            

            The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
            

            

            * The IETF chair or their delegate appointed by the IESG
            

            * The IAB chair or their delegate appointed by the IAB
            

            * The IRTF chair or their delegate appointed by the IRTF
            Chair
            

            * The Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or
            their
            

            delegate appointed by the ISE
            

            * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
            

            

            The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
            for
            

            appointing delegates, such as provision for an open
            nominations
            

            period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate
            for
            

            any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing
            body
            

            should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate'=
s
            term.
            

            Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are
            seated at
            

            all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed,
            if
            

            necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF
            chair or
            

            ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a
            delegate,
            

            this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing
            body
            

            for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
            

            

            The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of
            its
            

            voting members.
            

            

            ###
            

            

            I'm not sure we need to say anything specifically about the
            RSCE, but I suppose there's no harm.
            

            

            Peter
            

            

            --=C2=A0

            Rfced-future mailing list
            

            Rfced-future@iab.org
            

            https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rf=
ced-future
            

          

        

      

      

      

    

  


-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc=
ed-future




--00000000000038466305cdac1122--


From nobody Wed Oct  6 02:55:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC413A19B5 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vN0V0XLCzxoa for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:54:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4BDE3A19B3 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 02:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=Yflgefq4/DaHyDXJZMTiPDF5WirMaLBPPUKXArGEY3Q=; b=HXgJIW64pWUcrrNt3kZdVBkDIl L67QKRpt6GoRWLHGFr2k943HVybQ+MPJhHm4JlMnIgARaimOl70vbJ5VOZSxQLLR/5NT6FQe+uFA4 BK+v+amfF/+dbbnutWSzufdFKnhCA6M2cPLAeUFA1M0e+O7DW4nQHeXNPX/AJaomAQ1LgQPceAWay qdXS2VuYdmPS3n7VcGS9wWQgwWqlAgM4omSILxDtT/CiuNl81DxvG0QA0yEqYHQjB4qpvx0MOPndJ JZhlUiJMo+f0S/fpBfiRnNbGK5S34OidkTFsZwPp/kVcDJO0c1YHxaRDPabussgwoVQ+yWYSzGFTQ INe+P3nw==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=45309 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mY3dS-0006JY-Rb; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 10:54:51 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:54:11 +0100
Cc: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>  
To: Brian Carpenter 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 09:55:03 -0000

> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter  =
wrote:
>=20
> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be replaced =
rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse for =
the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would =
be appointed for unplanned vacancies.

That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and IAB =
streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement =
from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.

Colin=


From nobody Wed Oct  6 03:20:32 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FF933A1A2C for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 03:20:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.89
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uAShv-xWgvfz for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 03:20:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8701E3A1A31 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 03:20:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 196AKIIk1857782 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Oct 2021 12:20:18 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633515618; bh=WwbGh2AESgPl9b6FcHIskHVza8ShIN9nJg/INnSHFkc=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=han8XyIXWsIZGWtuVVibMQVLKU3hA9fvtfMLwhR2lFU9h5IXbATH/K2VJFR9Puphg YOuRgbKiIOXyyTAIBXxB223yRpnvoODcXNVGmNqA1nWUU/oYhnz+dzQFu6GTUTLXIV HYoA6S8KQ2gRh4E/MWSUBx6HBuOG7I261Gx0XX8c=
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: Colin Perkins , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>  
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <94390c5b-ca45-488c-b185-bdccdd23b01d@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 12:20:15 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eMGV29fauyrFrsajkibwcyfbv61OquMEd"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 10:20:29 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--eMGV29fauyrFrsajkibwcyfbv61OquMEd
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="tBJBvtunm02SnecNikxs5hUxlVmDFwugw";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: Colin Perkins , rfced-future@iab.org,
 Peter Saint-Andre 
Message-ID: <94390c5b-ca45-488c-b185-bdccdd23b01d@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com>
 <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org>
 <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com>
 <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org>
 <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk>
 <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net>
 <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--tBJBvtunm02SnecNikxs5hUxlVmDFwugw
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------1E8895B0A7336DCCC648EAE7"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------1E8895B0A7336DCCC648EAE7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Mirja,

On 06.10.21 11:33, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> For me the point point is that even a longer delay is okay if that does=
n=E2=80=99t really have any real implications.

But it does.=C2=A0 The work of the RSAB stops.=C2=A0 The work of the RSWG=
 sits in=20
limbo for an *indefinite* period of time.=C2=A0 That's disrespectful of t=
he=20
community who would have worked on the series evolution, and it's just=20
bad process design.

> Let=E2=80=99s assume there is a unexpected vacancy for either the ISE o=
r IRTF chair and the search process to find a new person is about 2-3 mon=
th (which is normal when doing "their job properly" as you say below): wh=
y not wait for the new ISE or IRTF chair if there is nothing urgent rathe=
r than trying to find some interim replacement for the RASB?

We would not be having this conversation if it was just about when=20
things go right.=C2=A0 I am trying to guard against the case where things=
 go=20
wrong.=C2=A0 So too are you.=C2=A0 You do not want to see the streams tra=
mpled.=C2=A0=20
Neither do I.=C2=A0 But neither can a stream simply block work indefinite=
ly.

Here's an example of how things could go wrong in the IAB: Suppose Colin =

wins the lottery and decides he never wants to answer another email ever =

again.=C2=A0 In that case, the IAB would have to select a new IRTF chair.=
=C2=A0 In=20
so doing they discover philosophical differences amongst themselves=20
about how the role should be viewed, and decide to go on an extensive=20
soul searching journey, or otherwise simply can't muster the votes to=20
approve a replacement.=C2=A0 That might take a great many months.=C2=A0 A=
ll=20
parties could even be said to have the best of intentions, and yet under =

your proposal the work of the RSAB would stall.=C2=A0 Why should the work=
 of=20
the RSWG and other streams suffer because of that?

And that works in reverse.=C2=A0 I wouldn't want the IAB to rush an=20
appointment of the IRTF chair when it has doubts, in order to satisfy=20
RSAB requirements.=C2=A0 Better to find someone to represent IRTF interes=
ts=20
in the short term, just as you have appointed John Levine to keep the=20
ship afloat in the RFC Editor function while we do our thing here.

A proposal has been put forth that guards the interests of the streams.=C2=
=A0=20
Can you articulate what the problem is with Peter's proposed text?

Eliot

ps:

People will note that unlike other issues, I have a particular passion=20
for this one.=C2=A0 That is because I am fully convinced that the above=20
scenario would happen over time.=C2=A0 Maybe not with this IAB or the nex=
t,=20
but it would happen.



--------------1E8895B0A7336DCCC648EAE7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
<no hats again>

    
Mirja,

    On 06.10.21 11:33, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:

    

      
For me the point point is th=
at even a longer delay is okay if that doesn=E2=80=99t really have any re=
al implications. 

    

    
But it does.=C2=A0 The work of the RSAB stops.=C2=A0 The work of t=
he RSWG
      sits in limbo for an indefinite period of time.=C2=A0 That's=

      disrespectful of the community who would have worked on the series
      evolution, and it's just bad process design.

    

    

      
Let=E2=80=99s assume there i=
s a unexpected vacancy for either the ISE or IRTF chair and the search pr=
ocess to find a new person is about 2-3 month (which is normal when doing=
 "their job properly" as you say below): why not wait for the new ISE or =
IRTF chair if there is nothing urgent rather than trying to find some int=
erim replacement for the RASB?

    

    
We would not be having this conversation if it was just about
      when things go right.=C2=A0 I am trying to guard against the case w=
here
      things go wrong.=C2=A0 So too are you.=C2=A0 You do not want to see=
 the
      streams trampled.=C2=A0 Neither do I.=C2=A0 But neither can a strea=
m simply
      block work indefinitely.=C2=A0 

    

    
Here's an example of how things could go wrong in the IAB:=C2=A0
      Suppose Colin wins the lottery and decides he never wants to
      answer another email ever again.=C2=A0 In that case, the IAB would =
have
      to select a new IRTF chair.=C2=A0 In so doing they discover
      philosophical differences amongst themselves about how the role
      should be viewed, and decide to go on an extensive soul searching
      journey, or otherwise simply can't muster the votes to approve a
      replacement.=C2=A0 That might take a great many months.=C2=A0 All p=
arties
      could even be said to have the best of intentions, and yet under
      your proposal the work of the RSAB would stall.=C2=A0 Why should th=
e
      work of the RSWG and other streams suffer because of that?

    
And that works in reverse.=C2=A0 I wouldn't want the IAB to rush a=
n
      appointment of the IRTF chair when it has doubts, in order to
      satisfy RSAB requirements.=C2=A0 Better to find someone to represen=
t
      IRTF interests in the short term, just as you have appointed John
      Levine to keep the ship afloat in the RFC Editor function while we
      do our thing here.

    

    
A proposal has been put forth that guards the interests of the
      streams.=C2=A0 Can you articulate what the problem is with Peter's
      proposed text?

    
Eliot

    

    
ps:

    
People will note that unlike other issues, I have a particular
      passion for this one.=C2=A0 That is because I am fully convinced th=
at
      the above scenario would happen over time.=C2=A0 Maybe not with thi=
s
      IAB or the next, but it would happen. 

    

    

  


--------------1E8895B0A7336DCCC648EAE7--

--tBJBvtunm02SnecNikxs5hUxlVmDFwugw--

--eMGV29fauyrFrsajkibwcyfbv61OquMEd
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFdeF8FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPY
+ggAzHSoL0rpfHuLc6gm4p+SThO0gr/juM4V04I8xipJxUBz26cPqq324p6+1V4zAxOa5gkkUvz1
OGFOT87aYexd26MQe5UZD7dqZRSQFp8EpdPY1Qe1pLdRhHjhwHIh11F6IqulSyyrd1LXvDaouRD2
pcFBkSC1i7UpAo8cqigD3jhwoHJtF1mDCE32rXL7JoSPcQO5aTUZ6G7KywutK5ZaXm35TKQ1nh46
AuAlbi9XurS2ZqPpKFY8lMXaiW2kJprLzYsLrrzm+flbmvrHM0MGvBefKcyH9qUpZDrrzLXoam+P
RLKTDoCLoCcLRVjHymvhkJVD9jrlzogtHMLpLgDiug==
=mBHB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--eMGV29fauyrFrsajkibwcyfbv61OquMEd--


From nobody Wed Oct  6 06:21:49 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCFB3A1C3D for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 06:21:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.551
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3LH6G-I-cwN for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 06:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C823A1C35 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 06:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1969onT2008068; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 14:21:40 +0100
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=zHIc5cBf5n8SLeRDspBZJAOJKPQSixEA+yuJiHA5T78=; b=hzgrzkXv99GnhVvDMN1aRRqvdJyuJ13i6rTDA5letlMVqufGQuichg8qwe1OP0pOjbKQ p4kA9KuUkdMaX38iTcF+R/PZpw6k/gaaoGTjlRduunJMcLlGAY1LXo2uEw0PPhh5fLyH B7wAZ9BsZu28EjHFRns6qYOKyvaHuckXwdepSry8mFKNei8YYK/kJqNaIbDNw+rKFvcD R0DoNXtm2loo07wpYJ3RdPE9ISKkQn4/HPq0+vwlBVJl+Fq2Xdy40wwKuLNzi+isDmJI U0Q16UM90UrfP3K+hEO4HwA9gZd1XLGqVqdCVC3uQ9UQfN0sSW8HGL/Y1xSJOwDSTo73 gw== 
Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3bh1amq0u7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:21:40 +0100
Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 196D6r2H026896; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 06:21:39 -0700
Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3bgvpj18nd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 06:21:39 -0700
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 09:21:38 -0400
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 09:21:38 -0400
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 09:21:38 -0400
From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Peter Saint-Andre 
Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
Thread-Index: AQHXtoU0HfYu6hMCeESB7q7AWuRuY6u+oJgAgAAFtQCAAAI8AIAAKUAAgAABLwCAAANBgIAEXb+AgAA0cYCAAAlBAIAABpmAgAAAzgCAAAIhgIAABLeAgAABMYCAAD65gIAAFXIAgAAGYQCAABgHAIAABzEAgAATyACAAPZ0AIAAESEAgAAsMICAABYsgIAAib+AgAADTwCAABd+gA==
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 13:21:37 +0000
Message-ID: <82C9C966-F5E6-4130-A80B-D9A7303A7042@akamai.com>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <82c19b2a-0a0f-4dd8-16be-0d3db12b492f@gmail.com> <32D5F860-0075-43B4-BA08-ED1977666939@csperkins.org> <77076efc-acd9-ed06-e777-80eccb24dc7f@mozilla.com> <0C9501E6-CB4D-40B8-BE48-C1B9B9D30CC8@csperkins.org> <37a7df4e-31cb-6ed0-b056-bd9293dbcb1e@joelhalpern.com> <5F67F791-28E3-41F1-85EA-9DF01511DA64@csperkins.org> <92bbe614-a75c-6010-bf08-ccf4d56e3efa@mozilla.com> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
In-Reply-To: <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21091200
x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-10-06_02:2021-10-06, 2021-10-06 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=848 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110060082
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: eWrbHvzXjZe3XlFRl9UlRLhlecT86lVu
X-Proofpoint-GUID: eWrbHvzXjZe3XlFRl9UlRLhlecT86lVu
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-10-06_02,2021-10-06_01,2020-04-07_01
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=788 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110060083
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:21:49 -0000

PiAgICBNaXJqYeKAmXMgdGV4dCBoZWxwcywgYnV0IEnigJlkIG11Y2ggcHJlZmVyIHRoYXQgdGhl
IFJTQUIgcmVxdWlyZWQgYWxsIHZvdGluZyBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGJlIHF1b3JhdGUuIEZvciBhIHN0
cmF0ZWd5LXNldHRpbmcgYm9keSwgdGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkbuKAmXQgYmUgdGltZSBjcml0aWNhbCBk
b2N1bWVudHMgdG8gYXBwcm92ZS4NCg0KSSB0ZW5kIHRvIGFncmVlLCBidXQgZmluZSAxMDAlIGEg
bGl0dGxlIGhpZ2guICBNYXliZSBhbGxvdyBvbmUgYWJzZW5jZS4NCg0K


From nobody Wed Oct  6 06:56:03 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A4F3A1C60 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 06:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=KpDv+nU+; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=mQvQF2x4
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rM8cEwUmySG4 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 06:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10CDE3A1C5F for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 06:55:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8B23200B25; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 09:55:50 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 09:55:50 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=6 nxjVFQVeWiy8ZjUBCLhLb7c/R4/sxuTCR7VHzrl5x0=; b=KpDv+nU+PbZL5WC7o hdRKvDP6C15npBtwsKJPSvZNvLmBsigOYCQZ3bnIubmpq4PLpFlAnlO2W6FZJxqy 9hJl9b81b6+SEeKsKQVlMKeh+e6GIBZOXdUgvm8EvTqyANhWbZj7hQn5kEoI/ECE 3CsQ4URIJPeo22xfDN8TQLBF74FfGZBJS7fOpXobpIZQkXQNN4GBQchHUOIqxNa0 mLacdmAo/cFjULOzYmJUyDby1Cbb7QzMknC/fwX8zuH80KLG6qHA2WywqP42MPSU AwpZbciEVdVdi2oWFy8gHcTYusSM+tCxQSyHFRExeGDtEbcOcKLBZiGKp6QI0aYc LXz9Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=6nxjVFQVeWiy8ZjUBCLhLb7c/R4/sxuTCR7VHzrl5 x0=; b=mQvQF2x4mSx6/I1fgY7x3B9q1XlmowKcc+8KtoVk/gUNZYrT+SZ99rD0M 6GGlSWVRPSwUYUWYOxJr6wB7sMg+soITjqSWuYjvzvu82kq0Wrj2SA4sE9nFZqDH sjGq53ehLCB3Dv7eEly/TxeXyeGylK3oQXSLkMtnyKx0y/Zhp/C40i7UJMzZKpRn QDa9PsLmM58rG4kjGmKVCDO1cSH999bXe/by5UX7EGwkEm32yrEP1GyMWSpotUhw vBE1SZEMCYdfBLixCor5SkDfsWaGkcnIYvJ5FCx0bD1ZnmByRKdimyI5Ez1EhhDr gyG9Z0bWcGxt7gJkVfm3ksz0Fp4Sw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeliedgieekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 09:55:49 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <934f596a-0e10-0013-539c-d47a78780bb7@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 07:55:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eliot Lear , Russ Housley 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:56:01 -0000

On 10/5/21 11:48 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> With two exceptions, as discussed in my comments below, your proposed 
> edits do not involve normative text, so I'd propose that they get 
> handled editorially.  Comments below.
> 
> On 06.10.21 03:40, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>> On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:



>>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about how the RSE supports development 
>>> the RFC Series.  The RSCE offers advice on this topic, but I think, 
>>> this falls to the RSWG. I cannot find anything to confirm that 
>>> opinion.  We need to add something to cover it.
>>
>> By my reading, §2.1.4 defined aspects of the RSE's relationship with 
>> the community. But the RSWG *is* the community, so there's no longer 
>> any relationship to develop.
> 
> My suggestion is a slight mod to the bullet list in the introduction as 
> follows:
> 
> OLD
> 
>     o  The RSWG proposes policies that govern the RFC Series as a whole,
>        with input from the community, the RSAB, and the RSCE.
> 
> NEW
> 
>     o  The RSWG proposes policies that govern development and evolution 
> of the RFC Series as a whole,
>        with input from the community, the RSAB, and the RSCE.

Although this is likely wordsmithing, I'm not sure if all of the RFCs 
published in the Editorial Series have to do with "development" and 
"evolution" (consider, for instance, the Style Guide). But I'm fine 
either way.

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 07:29:10 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD853A1CA1 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 07:29:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=WKxzuriV; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Fx+xHu2k
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DcxVEXlkO3qB for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 07:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 417353A1C9F for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 07:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830CB3200EAD; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:29:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 10:29:02 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:from:to:references:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=A m80k2TXKotxZOyaH2/D4i64rN7zckiSZc11ETkYSd4=; b=WKxzuriVez3C2IdJg jECSqkX7mXgVVCL14YX1TlrDIH2Uqnpw7KLHae/L/pLkMyIBJQbHtSH+5l0zRVkM QrRMqy8uvZizZ+zKcnjYt57dK0Kpw9zQ9zNswQ4TaRbYQTYvt1sfIIKhnID6IXUI NRS35sKHQ9jMuUR6XhmOQDypCP1sYiY260b51ww+hGbbxvFQsXqf9ztoGiIPUx5k RrWZkDgIDf1t/Qk6Vx97mauxV+Hh74RODtpEdbUIJREEKRpxYZMmy1Jv0YUEv6Rd Rsc5SZF7BCy7ZfvzSoNY4BdYhYUZN4yjYKfONgLI5RjjA6j4GG8bOBAFWAVdcfGA tFqvw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Am80k2TXKotxZOyaH2/D4i64rN7zckiSZc11ETkYS d4=; b=Fx+xHu2kpeP6c3sEWmY3+ucJHVM5cUogcCLFXfJ+MEOHdUDoig7RYnq9C Ht+cQEDEn/gSxX2P89FArz2GKDcpF8QngwhIjxPksdXMAlDtH2CdBmPEnabBBYba 6nSd2om2PrRP3hLS7X5CiyEWHntTBiG3tvD6L975Gkx7A2AI/Q7dtt5a/Bne1sLx kQqkVvUE5GysfgTzniLRQ3C6kobtlV5kPcGIjd2ShRDUMs5kT3Ace3/bs2q4Nwtd /ux3Ek8UdLCf0FX0GiiXiRT6oVGTKgX+kNsSxCKDMgkMEfOEwgNixLvmja6FjT0d ps0iPo4RI6W071yNndmLyED81V9Ug==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeliedgjeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfhffvfhfujggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepleeufeekkeeftdfhvdehhfelgfekudekveevffelffegveef leetuedtvdehvdelnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:29:01 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:28:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Russ Housley , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:29:09 -0000

On 10/5/21 7:40 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> 
> On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:



>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC 
>> Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I 
>> cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add 
>> something to cover it.
> 
> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the LLC, 
> but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself (i.e., in 
> the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.

Proposed text:

The RPC and IETF LLC should consult regularly on ways to further
develop and improve the implementation of RFC policies. This effort
must include the dimensions of document quality, timeliness of
production, and accessibility of results. It must also specifically
take into account issues raised by the IETF community through the
RSWG and by the streams themselves through the stream managers.

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 07:35:12 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAFE3A1CC7 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 07:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FpBJo_TvxfPd for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 07:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A62E23A1CC2 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 07:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79335300C18 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:35:03 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id AZSrkRImhjSJ for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:35:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 008C0300B97; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:35:01 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Russ Housley 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:34:58 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im> 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:35:09 -0000

Peter:

You direction looks right to me, but I have some suggestions.

> 
>=20
>>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC =
Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot =
find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to =
cover it.
>> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the =
LLC, but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself =
(i.e., in the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.
>=20
> Proposed text:
>=20
> The RPC and IETF LLC should consult regularly on ways to further
> develop and improve the implementation of RFC policies. This effort
> must include the dimensions of document quality, timeliness of
> production, and accessibility of results. It must also specifically
> take into account issues raised by the IETF community through the
> RSWG and by the streams themselves through the stream managers.

s/IETF community/community/

s/and by the streams themselves through the stream managers/and by the =
stream managers/

Russ


From nobody Wed Oct  6 10:38:25 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65E63A0879 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eHg_8d96cAkh for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71D293A0637 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id y17so3654363ilb.9 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SDjDgdElmALQoemR/Y26Hu5QAR3SiW6O84XOFUiI0j0=; b=aYG3xGw6Cr8tZJYA6+jwwL87CP0MEh6wjwhkHyfmlhdKzbBRwTObizIq1QB/8ukwgZ YT7p9+/+n9r5XZOBDxS203c1woSoZiGVBYI3Fusu0VU4EZe2L6NfURYCO6NGUR2f060p IcccpZjWti1lmTLiT1O9zE5n7V9OCvNX8X164=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SDjDgdElmALQoemR/Y26Hu5QAR3SiW6O84XOFUiI0j0=; b=zu2izRwgVzfZHejY7lCQrD4yA4n3at6ozgDEcDGUbsQ1CrG9wn4NXQKMNG7nUgQ5Nn EkzV5r5QJFt9+lCB+caw0qmD6JAzfi1kRHHXTfGs40IGzq5vawcDjRKhqJB7FHjadovZ WYbJJvGYkbUn5QI+Zn+X9SMugPIYC1QJkUDUPXFy5YqKtkFG+5iS95BhyuheCOQYEjTN 5t9AcC2PY/aVlvRQGWsOzOILUgTr0FmsVC+LVt6hl0W7D6pI+L3MQYmE7xQzfh761BIG /gtBkwG6OVWzcvDFS+gnng8aICVxf0ZSTECa95mB1sC926G+V015U/7SHeuAY8j4+nEk Hu1A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ET2ffs8e51dyckMAaaJhvCggWoB6LdKj2eI0CtdpknkE7fjsl jUKoTB7W1+e92HBvpjRuwesARw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx02Rvyd13I+V6Zefbow2R7uMns5eYqBzAHY9KPM2+jZqUYbj84FSMl3NyIHQS3HSMylr4vBQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:16c5:: with SMTP id 5mr8334603ilx.143.1633541874566;  Wed, 06 Oct 2021 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q11sm12504048ilg.85.2021.10.06.10.37.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 10:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <49bf1a13-8692-4f7f-6994-a2edd9895707@mozilla.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 11:37:53 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Russ Housley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>  
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 17:38:02 -0000

On 10/6/21 8:34 AM, Russ Housley wrote:
> Peter:
> 
> You direction looks right to me, but I have some suggestions.
> 
>> 
>>
>>>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to cover it.
>>> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the LLC, but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself (i.e., in the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.
>>
>> Proposed text:
>>
>> The RPC and IETF LLC should consult regularly on ways to further
>> develop and improve the implementation of RFC policies. This effort
>> must include the dimensions of document quality, timeliness of
>> production, and accessibility of results. It must also specifically
>> take into account issues raised by the IETF community through the
>> RSWG and by the streams themselves through the stream managers.
> 
> s/IETF community/community/
> 
> s/and by the streams themselves through the stream managers/and by the stream managers/

That's better, yes.

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 11:10:20 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC65E3A0970 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 11:10:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=hwci1x4V; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=dg5XQZ44
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id koZfe5jTIQBr for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 11:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75C343A096D for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 11:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3013B3201C1D; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 14:10:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:10:07 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:cc:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=J QPw7vIqhxUy52T7zzTQkCjH58c3q6xQFqtqfhn/SZg=; b=hwci1x4V0NVVv3YCq NO4BYwAyJ3Jt9MqiFUiWvXaDO5NmE/QT3/j4M/ZtADEZ6OE2j9qWSA3nlSTkXR9v vvwQlRUxhC/lL5xu36Fc4lDarct5XIbu2Uzk7LkSVZIDh/IC4HcG8gTjjIgGMOQS bg39am6k88gMtCZYFc0jedGUAe7Fw63IPzaBl8xYd1zKk64DC8zvxjfVoiUWw9fQ UfoUzj0W28cQy++UTDuQeCHGHQFEZU6o3LeXA5PqvW5IKaJZ0mrThLV/Bg+DvUhT HgEAJuPu+ll8fooGkUe5/U+3otsNFNoaN29xfYot3Tb4s0idaIMO/5lH2VhKlT7E tdWaQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=JQPw7vIqhxUy52T7zzTQkCjH58c3q6xQFqtqfhn/S Zg=; b=dg5XQZ44v6LbMHSsfrIL7X87vFPSp0I75mDDu5Nquy7GulGqnYLWl2VoI t9rjKzFv4Y7s8IEmje0Bh9UDqI8ov6ecA5eNN07dE4ncvk5ge0rkVxMsh/36t6i4 Wcx5IBJaqi1Ixa5trp9DZOwqd0JFo7hdPAsls3OGRfa0INoIrWII7Fvk10e/Ynrh CayzsvvweRi6j3bSWF1tZ2Br39V6ggIBnXfeny8CFD+JARSwv6H718P+PZX+sDtd cbMnLcsZcnJMrqnEha93uMA3jefKSG365bGd35SgYABB/PzLBapxOC5NsApqDiok C54rnshHv784rvGMRA2iaz1RVKFYA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeliedguddulecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfvfhfhufgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgueegfedvkeetfeegkeekgefggfeuteetheegvdfgffev geekgfelhedtgeetfeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 14:10:05 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <42900ea1-05b0-74d6-105d-ba55c57c53c4@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 12:10:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins , Brian Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 18:10:15 -0000

On 10/6/21 3:54 AM, Colin Perkins wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be replaced rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse for the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would be appointed for unplanned vacancies.
> 
> That’s a big assumption… it makes sense for IETF and IAB streams, since there’s a clear pool to appoint a replacement from, but I’m not sure it’s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.

Yes, and this is something we need to take into account.

The text I proposed included a proviso that, as a fallback, the IAB 
could appoint a temporary delegate for the IRTF or ISE seat on the RSAB.

If a proposal of significance comes before the RSAB while such a 
temporary delegate is seated, couldn't the delegate ballot CONCERN in 
RSAB voting while the impact on the relevant stream is fully assessed? 
That might provide assurances that a proposal would be pushed through 
without considering the needs of all the streams.

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 12:06:05 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105BC3A07C3 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 12:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id brX90oNEb03r for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 12:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36A193A07A5 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 12:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31064112A64; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 12:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V6wi1Ho6_7xz; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 12:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 352194112A5A; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 12:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:05:53 +1300
Cc: Russ Housley , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <03D4A237-29AB-41D5-B7A3-E09DC63276FA@ietf.org>
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im> 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 19:06:04 -0000

> On 7/10/2021, at 3:28 AM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> On 10/5/21 7:40 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>=20
> 
>=20
>>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC =
Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot =
find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to =
cover it.
>> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the =
LLC, but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself =
(i.e., in the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.
>=20
> Proposed text:
>=20
> The RPC and IETF LLC should consult regularly on ways to further
> develop and improve the implementation of RFC policies. This effort
> must include the dimensions of document quality, timeliness of
> production, and accessibility of results. It must also specifically
> take into account issues raised by the IETF community through the
> RSWG and by the streams themselves through the stream managers.

I can live with this.  It would perhaps reflect the rest of the document =
better if the RPC were charged with this and the LLC were charged with =
ensuring they do it as part of its contract oversight role, but as I =
said this text is fine.

Jay

>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Wed Oct  6 13:06:06 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E659D3A0873 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 13:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BgzCIIMqXnPN for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 13:06:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21D9C3A0872 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 13:06:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id h3so3462998pgb.7 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:06:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JS6FmFGLEOIgTjI9NE8d0RZHz1w1mFwz99piwWgc3vA=; b=qSZEC9GhDUVe5fsrQ05VBjAiG5yunqNgimfSpsIb4q6XRipMswG8dU18MCnrtHanY5 bZ9KeJsL1OQzRwQ07DLgamz/psbbJ3XoHfksgBdwWiWp89a1Ca6hHPFhboyGru30/8Fr 8IoyxwTROfwLHyfNnK1C2hqrIB6+p96Aa7QOSDsNta+4842L6ujQB9W1BkluJnLwTkmK d10sqVlA3N/TLqdCs5F+61j9xGOhmu17NaKhNHCitbAVkdIiLbE9lsJ5fALmULpW2zbc yGcJOM8SED8S2FVAGNKH07piknc9zzCqaVfRFi0Ptw9UJ6dpUc9ATBlURKXanfQN1mrS Jv4g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JS6FmFGLEOIgTjI9NE8d0RZHz1w1mFwz99piwWgc3vA=; b=e7lhzI88g2TtKmvEa8dD15vE13UrXciJS37y8xUpRXEQ+VXU3c4fIZcSPGDGutuXSe /eEjQtgVV9kZNpyLaTxVYPWYwBfoMuqeg7MkGEZdLFaT994KZ7EW6X1QdO/wG3dCfsqL TLGjyCJitZA//9ZkDA5xE4o4ysi6WUOGOdNKW/vCC0PSubMqkmryce6p4MtcY58c+rGH TJq+91Nz9wXzw8unGSaCIR3BYAVTJ0jgPfpQHbPz0UK/UNxfHUxUQr17mpXbkkEs/FcA i/jzFtG+JdE26pEKq0OYKIoyrOkN0/XZp9PAVF+I6fGi5QO9wEhve15fD0m6d4vzDlHa qnjg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53345IctLFQO0xXNJStQQ6hkeElVCbLFLY2S2bQI41GUlE6FsHxf SBWVSkN36xs91gKdMJ3M4Nc=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKd3LaYJnq4+miDns39IS6Jc667ZHz3Vua36yScxR4C+c97drqseldaNYl/edo6VusiAI12Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:194d:b0:44c:b97a:7c4 with SMTP id s13-20020a056a00194d00b0044cb97a07c4mr253930pfk.83.1633550759889;  Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o12sm20842488pgn.33.2021.10.06.13.05.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:05:54 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 20:06:05 -0000

On 06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter =20
wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be replaced=20
rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse for t=
he other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would be=20
appointed for unplanned vacancies.
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and IA=
B streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement fr=
om, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.

I'm not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking abo=
ut acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB decisions, by their n=
ature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean that some months of d=
elay is acceptable either. We need to find some middle ground.

   Brian


From nobody Wed Oct  6 13:11:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3C43A0879 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 13:11:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqE2x7U5z4eJ for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 13:11:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 615983A0877 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 13:11:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id l13so4106933ilo.3 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:11:05 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Dbu1N3ZZIEOhNDvg81OWPMYj+scgXWIZ15PLoKrtxdA=; b=c0+QR6z/vM9Ek49aeMmZyfPf6bwo6P+bxtguawwAK3qYXkcjphmCPZnj2sR0i7mCPJ KUKxJ5RiauJTX8JYFUtu50ZdXy2jNFZbiZtoKFmHsN5qH/LqRB4/ZSA9jH6VsNZfCFyr vXBmYocgp130LUjC/j6ezsoumdihzPQu0BwmY=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Dbu1N3ZZIEOhNDvg81OWPMYj+scgXWIZ15PLoKrtxdA=; b=sz97b+6GecsOxlEL0sa1LXmK+LAWhJsbyjkdIzoWyjChqPPSjRXw1oeVn48XvOVRxH h+rzrql7oqAkhmMIOM19KNCN+mfhvve5I3JrE5HpRp+Op4WCTlH/WOA38EAA6XFVCftY bnNvGhJ3wSOcYWI59LIwhE8k9YbzrWvwvQdx3GdWFdiDYGq2EFergTWtlrugRtrbZPkv BReSVoCz75x64XW1iMEtgfslTXIgy8dH1xONxBYukXyqeYfHO30QfTVnuTW/OJPVsW1D 9Se9AK9g444iQwlFVY4cSo8+8QZinuD5QXIlo7mOYdo055YYy7MeDSznBWrKQdws0PTO DLcg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532yo5TeyltvAonaO2Lehf4YR4e66vF9AtALEoQ+s6d3NZRcQJz1 a2LTMgbdZZjtnpBL9aywORydpw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRY3+Gm7hwa8eSrYWr5/bOIQhRfU9LjYYifqK1RUJW2okDDl08AQXIvp8WowXSg0ysSGLVtw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:de4:: with SMTP id m4mr126667ilj.54.1633551064173;  Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q17sm12600676iod.51.2021.10.06.13.11.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:11:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 14:11:02 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Russ Housley 
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>  <03D4A237-29AB-41D5-B7A3-E09DC63276FA@ietf.org>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <03D4A237-29AB-41D5-B7A3-E09DC63276FA@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 20:11:13 -0000

On 10/6/21 1:05 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 7/10/2021, at 3:28 AM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>>
>> On 10/5/21 7:40 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to cover it.
>>> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the LLC, but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself (i.e., in the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.
>>
>> Proposed text:
>>
>> The RPC and IETF LLC should consult regularly on ways to further
>> develop and improve the implementation of RFC policies. This effort
>> must include the dimensions of document quality, timeliness of
>> production, and accessibility of results. It must also specifically
>> take into account issues raised by the IETF community through the
>> RSWG and by the streams themselves through the stream managers.
> 
> I can live with this.  It would perhaps reflect the rest of the document better if the RPC were charged with this and the LLC were charged with ensuring they do it as part of its contract oversight role, but as I said this text is fine.

Your framing is better, so I'll wordsmith it.

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 16:10:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0BD3A0953 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 16:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=G1609toS; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=S7LG+BNq
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LZzsDWZ0cTaN for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DCC33A0952 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245C33201C5D; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 19:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 19:10:08 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=v IvpOxA2FWU+nXsTgdcI11rKy7JsvSGf2AnL45VgaQQ=; b=G1609toSkQi2AK8fJ qH/Zd8EPJyiM/ECywDEfqL/S4AEewted0XU+VcOh/NfLSC66U4SjK+sXcuFXRt8z sJAg6FYe9wp+oDwI+Mcu25UFezBIjhbgjkXSnrhMcavuQupBupOb78TyTmqGx5mk bv/biikR0Z4aQPYyxB5Gy+WvX5j8g3xvJNcZ4vcTE85dOmbRTLqoMM4dzopiZ+ga 6y0VpGhIROAhHl47E0fi1otWeBOT1eu+IFVYO+BIrosJKVhWuL+c4Z3LAGet/PhR pZumF23Zo5WeeQqWz+izY4hHj8BqaO7sCr+7a/gU4XjXmLIq8TTUR90DF/sGSkOS 5NSMw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=vIvpOxA2FWU+nXsTgdcI11rKy7JsvSGf2AnL45Vga QQ=; b=S7LG+BNq/z4NfxySjJR8+XAJVjB6PJ2jCWpPC/fHAmz9E0hzVRwkPr3sK RLICqpCr1r/xyVNzsSrd5TmRZDmOnPGmzo173gLDqUJRA4EfjvPmUjEdGzbvl+FL MioTgmEfSHjIAOzYSTc7g8bGZ0Rs5LGNUUzDownN9LZL/bO1OumFtBZkLCJ37AVW /3rnkOWQR9yAt+KLN+9fNu/hQYaCwXL5wMhcAV1y+eDcyAfa6mVz24KNgoHjUxmV G9jqjIv7mFe4aG7rimi5Le975sNbZOuKBY9QYYG224/i+BeuoFxukaf2a1qchxZL QlZbHDh6R2qj87oRq31i+Lsj+2ryA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeljedgudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeugeefvdekteefgeekkeeggffgueetteehgedvgfffveeg kefgleehtdegteefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:10:06 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 17:10:02 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Russ Housley , rfced-future@iab.org
References: 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 23:10:17 -0000

Hi Russ, thanks for the extra feedback. In what follows I've elided 
straightforward editorial issues (or things I'd already noticed and 
fixed in my working copy) so that we can focus on topics that might need 
discussion on list.

On 10/4/21 1:04 PM, Russ Housley wrote:

> Also, this raises a question about the title of this document.  This text says that this document is Version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.  Given the titles of [RFC5620] and [RFC6635], why is this not RFC Editor Model (Version 3)?

At the time I changed the title, we were discussing on list various 
kinds of confusion about what "RFC Editor" means. But I tend to agree 
that for the sake of continuity it's probably best to change it back.

> Section 2 says:
> 
>     Discussion within the RFCED-Future Program has led in the direction
>     of a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some respects to
>     the structure of technical work within the IETF or IRTF) that retains
>     roles for specialized expertise in document editing and publication.
> 
> I suggest that we drop this paragraph.  Without a lot more context about the RFCED-Future Program, this will not mean anything in a few years.

I suggest instead to retain a modified version of this text:

By contrast, Version 3 of the RFC Editor Model, specified here,
provides a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some
respects to the structure of technical work within the IETF or
IRTF) that retains roles for specialized expertise in document
editing and publication.

> Section 3.2.3 says that the community call for comment must include:
> 
>     o  A URL for the proposal document
> 
> Does it have to be an Internet-Draft?  I hope so.  The RPC does not really have a process for other things, like a Google Doc.

I'll change that to:

* A URL to the Internet-Draft that defines the proposal

(In §3.2.2 we say that proposals need to be Internet-Drafts.)

> Section 3.2.5 says:
> 
>     See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716].
> 
> Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants, it is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants.

I see your point. Although those references could be informative for 
readers, I'm not confident that the specific procedures for enforcing 
the IETF anti-harrassment policy (e.g., the Ombudsteam) could or should 
also apply to the RSWG/RSAB. Can someone enlighten us in this regard?

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 18:42:24 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920663A03F3 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 18:42:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=LfuN1q5t; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=NjLuNcj2
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgpaH6AEot87 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 18:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A53563A03AA for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 18:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862015C01C0; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 21:42:16 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 21:42:16 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:from:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=a/kvHo6oTpR1C8U/BdcL7hwz4L IMbTeCOge3yPURugc=; b=LfuN1q5tfKbEMNHOUjrT7PC99TvP4+Qgcx8euXbUl0 jxvIAsBPxPhnDZqC++k5LAXWBkFLJwsiAPfNuj36MybQLILfYUtSRDUTjSF2GLUK 6LJXsbubkYsN0zXmPr9ljb3weiBTId1sHUD7KYMK5JyN5dd8qKK8ndC1UGkCNIHB 7UPYOH6u3d3apt94q8MWh+upsinBd5Di8qd7j9DaNGvtzPA2An4ROrF9G4AuxF4p OUHwQO+ZzIgPBVPyGi+v3wkYDVsWWNysmsi5n5tG0gt0KH2tWXsdjC2dcqN8oO3Q 7wbSyDxrOOtJKhCmvB3PZU2ZpQ+k/9Vu0EZZFK1AkeuA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=a/kvHo 6oTpR1C8U/BdcL7hwz4LIMbTeCOge3yPURugc=; b=NjLuNcj2m3ywIaDPAoSvZe 6NfcH1nkSBJW7bR6SJiZPFU/6ZcOKipGaxNO4yV1+1UCk9uJfjkBrmpUjNeuSGUL MIek6IWb+/RemD90mCa6eiwR+Dw36ZKoE+G+nj6LDjoUCcym27rnwgYzTa/eKN5n qM1fdkAsuO2go9O7Qvc4Uhvcuous2iinOvjKLapT6870E4OZZ4ZZ+h/TmqzL/3bE 7Zee3HfBU9K7Q8RpA+3E5489QpO5eiFJ9TaFTg+vyBT4KXiE5WghrEEXJ3i3UFUV nJ0viI6QBuuNYhN0IInXycD78xYZ/XjCJ1BoLe8L8VypikN6suFlswVHqvAyhtPQ ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeljedggeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfvhffutgfgsehtjeertd dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgv rhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefteelkeevgefghefgfe egiedutefggedutdejleehudevhfelueejgfegffetueenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrd himh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:42:15 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <03ea1939-607f-5a10-3062-d9b4a6e0c572@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:42:11 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] discussion venues
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 01:42:23 -0000

We already have a number of discussion venues on RFC-related topics: 
rfc-interest, tools-discuss, xml2rfc, etc. Now we'll create another one 
for the RSWG. Which topics should be discussed where? Are there topics 
that are appropriate for rfc-interest but not the RSWG list, or should 
we perhaps deprecate the former in preference for the latter? Do we want 
to provide guidance on this matter in the document, or leave it to be 
worked out later?

Peter


From nobody Wed Oct  6 20:49:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591C53A0C52 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 20:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HvcgO2_9ulQb for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 610623A0C51 for ; Wed,  6 Oct 2021 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id r201so4390339pgr.4 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EN8O5QXs5EwGuhAShoTR9Ro7K+OJ1IRJdiatEAbqLcE=; b=Jj73qgMworfjbWByfqdy2a0WZyAxYM5UNhCgq+W0uASoupFpkptBAEurDd6fQrsjvb ao+yWW8yE2bcYi1heRzeU/ZQRuxQz9lhnU9Ii2AZ1wAnNKkUA7Fz2eYYt2K2xGwqc9Al lxVPKQ+TD+Iuw/ZG5aoed65sZh8gIIRfwoMHZDF43abmZZjbHXF3/m+TRLpxr+vd87cw LAeyAJ8IOxb4gHCcQcKZNFiL+G33UeQTGWfVI2VlUZM3N7vHgWijYEna9/qSzN7vqx3G KTUEyIC6zwnbRHPmZBCHMPMCFEjxIQO0XokhKPT8u1d0/Amq0GWbbX0DITDsnt8YDdaG LF7Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EN8O5QXs5EwGuhAShoTR9Ro7K+OJ1IRJdiatEAbqLcE=; b=jqw++IeYYKSnPUR9TlH5pUE33zo+Np9lVZqh1sE38alu7JprQBk/pmjGuJ6OBaIHkM yz71A19fG6ztKOYzQdRMQvVIKLS/t02IqwzmTpXZ4uhS4hNQ+htzjJzi4/3lchj2exDS o/XW7DNRHIrKDtVAZag9YeojhNXuq1yIgNg2LA1H3Or5DwLkPU04eXkVAQ6VTibJDrO8 kb98n1BCrIxwmO4I3Jtx0IA+bT3UCbzxuAAxO+BfvBmk0cxQb7Y7wdV3zBz3hVMccgtw goEL5vrXgOEd7Vyi6jjGhW4/1fKQVzPKlF8wf8uETXK+shs8Hbn33nZiPTf5lPdAEWZS p5kg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iJkvqlkVxR3lulut3ZVwWL5q/llmNpnspYrI+HZDmF/v+K9B+ xBL4lUQwsP9Dp31hnfqwacu3ILaJE6A2wg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxBO+fZEWXXYcIh6e4I18AGfsGtIIpeLemWLaJIt5dj3GhPl0Rd9RTZRIKzbn/vCKvel3VSKw==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:f306:: with SMTP id l6mr1534120pgh.72.1633578579907; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 20:49:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u2sm16648915pfi.120.2021.10.06.20.49.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 20:49:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <03ea1939-607f-5a10-3062-d9b4a6e0c572@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <11fa0507-c0a4-e672-a89a-da2fae99112d@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:49:35 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <03ea1939-607f-5a10-3062-d9b4a6e0c572@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] discussion venues
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 03:49:46 -0000

On 07-Oct-21 14:42, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> We already have a number of discussion venues on RFC-related topics: 
> rfc-interest, tools-discuss, xml2rfc, etc. Now we'll create another one 
> for the RSWG. Which topics should be discussed where? Are there topics 
> that are appropriate for rfc-interest but not the RSWG list, or should 
> we perhaps deprecate the former in preference for the latter? Do we want 
> to provide guidance on this matter in the document, or leave it to be 
> worked out later?

I'm sure we'll need rswg@rfc-editor.org, with a clearly defined scope
referring directly to RFCxxxx (i.e. draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model).
I would expect that the RSWG chairs will need to do quite a bit of
discussion management as well, until people get used to the scope.

They will need somewhere for discussions that are out of scope, so I'm
sure that rfc-interest@ and the tools discussions need to continue.

No, I think we should not write any text about this in the current
draft. Leave it to the RSWG chairs.

   Brian



From nobody Thu Oct  7 04:54:12 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E7D3A0B19 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 04:54:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJ4tprLOdz8t for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 04:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 719AF3A0FC0 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 04:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=cdYfAmQ3KPST0H/B2xu9TJg1s0gPWipPfa1f02fKFgY=; b=cJZq0IqDgcL2p0HLBu6ExFD4Cs jORP87YFHAD+qr6T80IVKome3ghR2bAXTAeTwsEaZR0d/NSuQjbwAOONcGTOojukrqGcHa2mQk5ar 0NGQTEoIdxPPlUWEajIaQePfr4Oj3UlMPrpZC5oGUPRRUnV8jrItVq7VQfXKe5aLL/ZHkZsrR4YNP GDW40D602IcLry1zjHd1+sAkT7CTOOcTNRlFhJR/FkYGmA7/AeGXWjKtvTkRyQq6tk2a2PpAZ2VtX uKVtCrU1Ar2Md8XXQqEIgWMHk27Z9HYp90YuzajJys3sM9BT8T752VuRbuDcsxCeoM60yRiOcSj+1 vXVoA7jw==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=46973 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mYRyL-0006sw-Ho; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 12:54:01 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:53:58 +0100
Cc: Russ Housley , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References:  
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 11:54:11 -0000

> On 7 Oct 2021, at 00:10, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>=20
> Hi Russ, thanks for the extra feedback. In what follows I've elided =
straightforward editorial issues (or things I'd already noticed and =
fixed in my working copy) so that we can focus on topics that might need =
discussion on list.
>=20
> On 10/4/21 1:04 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
...
>> Section 3.2.5 says:
>>    See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716].
>> Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants, =
it is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants.
>=20
> I see your point. Although those references could be informative for =
readers, I'm not confident that the specific procedures for enforcing =
the IETF anti-harrassment policy (e.g., the Ombudsteam) could or should =
also apply to the RSWG/RSAB. Can someone enlighten us in this regard?


If the ombudsteam are willing, it probably makes it easier for everyone =
if the new group uses the same anti-harassment policy and reporting =
procedures as the IETF. The IETF policy is good enough, and there=E2=80=99=
s enough overlap in participation that having a different policy will =
only lead to confusion.

The IRTF follows the IETF policy in this regard, for similar reasons.

--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





From nobody Thu Oct  7 05:14:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29AB3A0FDE for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 05:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDpLqX3KJjfX for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 05:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 413463A0FDB for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 05:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 197CEHBm2614088 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:14:18 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633608858; bh=21oKgGJCLoUojXqqITd5TlWNazFNCDphCa246ZzcezY=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=QJdLX27YACdYxU/tKIQUA5We5OpbiIP81rquFpbcrrnCtoWafZrfMyTWJlNoxbcIp m9PnfDVjJTdmN8xldyQQycOLzN06LAtgMkwVF9wKZxSESF78d4yTVU7+3cPUeg8CZJ xEHqlgicVVNnVww7MZuOuvNqAzOMX4lvgq0Ywh2E=
To: Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Russ Housley 
References:   
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:14:13 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4EEMbX8vxjAwqaFvaLIEEaPogRwQ9HRbf"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 12:14:37 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--4EEMbX8vxjAwqaFvaLIEEaPogRwQ9HRbf
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="40zDtIIz0BbBQxWG3L81DoYM4mEIVNjNa";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Russ Housley 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
References: 
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--40zDtIIz0BbBQxWG3L81DoYM4mEIVNjNa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en-US

Hi

On 07.10.21 13:53, Colin Perkins wrote:
>> On 7 Oct 2021, at 00:10, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:=

>>
>> Hi Russ, thanks for the extra feedback. In what follows I've elided st=
raightforward editorial issues (or things I'd already noticed and fixed i=
n my working copy) so that we can focus on topics that might need discuss=
ion on list.
>>
>> On 10/4/21 1:04 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
> ...
>>> Section 3.2.5 says:
>>>     See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716].
>>> Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants,=
 it is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants.
>> I see your point. Although those references could be informative for r=
eaders, I'm not confident that the specific procedures for enforcing the =
IETF anti-harrassment policy (e.g., the Ombudsteam) could or should also =
apply to the RSWG/RSAB. Can someone enlighten us in this regard?

>
> If the ombudsteam are willing, it probably makes it easier for everyone=
 if the new group uses the same anti-harassment policy and reporting proc=
edures as the IETF. The IETF policy is good enough, and there=E2=80=99s e=
nough overlap in participation that having a different policy will only l=
ead to confusion.
>
> The IRTF follows the IETF policy in this regard, for similar reasons.
>
The references are simply about the definition of the term and how to=20
report.=C2=A0 To me they are appropriate.=C2=A0 If Russ prefers, we could=
 expand=20
"see also" to "for further information about these policies, see...".=C2=A0=
=20
The obligations are written pretty clearly in the draft.

Eliot




--40zDtIIz0BbBQxWG3L81DoYM4mEIVNjNa--

--4EEMbX8vxjAwqaFvaLIEEaPogRwQ9HRbf
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFe5JUFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPa
nAgAmSBJLWBzVY3QOZevldoEBVvNe8ajkdaIafUagMmb/+KunZKjg5PXPibJOSycHnSnUcILBkK1
Hv3hej/Gjj7tq3nXRKp6X7XproLCzqmwGeXFG3F+QTNpGqS2ILtz97yBfAxvav/pQ2OL523ysOsS
WEA4ISPJi8IKyV90HX2zpi4sEBKtv98xbk+lLjcCMxYzJCft10IgJ+uY5jLKGZj29fCXsJ5kkq7p
XVEHqOPLUySQu2J4R0Dx8W12WGl6u7Moty89pvs/RxwTqrrw7zAF+SbATW3bYqGthzi7gw6N1mOM
OjTGFwrHSGxqTYECgGK2Ocd62U47BxJeHPE/Ix40Yw==
=/nfZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--4EEMbX8vxjAwqaFvaLIEEaPogRwQ9HRbf--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 06:20:38 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959F83A124E for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 06:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=bLh4UVVI; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=lczksP5C
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YBdRvD-v0JdU for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 06:20:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 395CE3A1044 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 06:20:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D21A3201C3C; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 09:20:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 09:20:12 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; s=fm3; bh=qKuo+rv cQIyXpTIPRKD2dXm12I6hxDg1aCf+pU8mG1A=; b=bLh4UVVImkofj1WpBX1JM3U u1g/n8scJSlEqt2qGlDCy9faO46EjXVKsvwEvT0xcCOhs4CZe5vRJiX3GhzgJAu9 GR7ywPFvsL4gLkR4vvcEMIaQciNxLfy14Gf5mFrqrysUaKLkp0VC5+t9WRWzyMR3 eFXy9t1lBtNR0CEpsAw8M1FZSfYWwEgnruIGSu8Q5M27C1LCZBxxK3IqGzwhG4KS buu//j+Fv/GKAwZK+8rAkIX5ZUxl5scApDPKZBfyQzJwccnEz/SAh4feaP9q8K+q rJkMVmkmmVenM364MIHMrar8aor5ax3XnvjpDiP/U3P9LqRG1+J2KMQkG0Dq+ww= =
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qKuo+rvcQIyXpTIPRKD2dXm12I6hxDg1aCf+pU8mG 1A=; b=lczksP5CbbcMqrYMkSDiSvG04nB3ZZAG5JbAKpmU35U6q70Cqy1z6HBCx ZRzBi0ge01H8L8Hn6xsVntPlDD15Z3TyRov3PH3vaDP3U8ApB8WlqtBq7Nfh39TO 5A4UdDd1SbqygTTy1w/pOIfpDduUEQiAflBOd4qPh+yEIUh59IHL4AfkC32WZDiW sRq3QXLAIUd6FXGmuputXrH3x5vNuokQ0jh04EVcobXlvVuNAHTVBQ2jIiZuoaVQ cqiWe0Y4ENum4WbiBXcb0lhz1v5pXlnhtWBK0crBBB3/UlRbeoyMjr0PVSQbYF6J HCOZ4ZfZaWnuU+rwGvYztebO+WJIg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelkedgiedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptgfghfggufffkfhfjgfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepuefhveehveevtdduieegkedtgfeiieeugefgtdfgieffhfeu jefhhefhieeltdehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:20:11 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 07:20:10 -0600
Message-Id: <76717AD4-6D9D-4F84-A5A2-BCC7B60C7D4D@stpeter.im>
References: 
Cc: Colin Perkins , rfced-future@iab.org, Russ Housley 
In-Reply-To: 
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A348)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 13:20:35 -0000

> On Oct 7, 2021, at 6:14 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFHi
>=20
> On 07.10.21 13:53, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 7 Oct 2021, at 00:10, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Russ, thanks for the extra feedback. In what follows I've elided stra=
ightforward editorial issues (or things I'd already noticed and fixed in my w=
orking copy) so that we can focus on topics that might need discussion on li=
st.
>>>=20
>>> On 10/4/21 1:04 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>> ...
>>>> Section 3.2.5 says:
>>>>    See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716].
>>>> Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants, i=
t is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants.
>>> I see your point. Although those references could be informative for rea=
ders, I'm not confident that the specific procedures for enforcing the IETF a=
nti-harrassment policy (e.g., the Ombudsteam) could or should also apply to t=
he RSWG/RSAB. Can someone enlighten us in this regard?
>=20
>>=20
>> If the ombudsteam are willing, it probably makes it easier for everyone i=
f the new group uses the same anti-harassment policy and reporting procedure=
s as the IETF. The IETF policy is good enough, and there=E2=80=99s enough ov=
erlap in participation that having a different policy will only lead to conf=
usion.
>>=20
>> The IRTF follows the IETF policy in this regard, for similar reasons.
>>=20
> The references are simply about the definition of the term and how to repo=
rt.  To me they are appropriate.  If Russ prefers, we could expand "see also=
" to "for further information about these policies, see...".=20

WFM

Peter



From nobody Thu Oct  7 10:15:02 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9093A0C58 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 10:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.887
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id smZVsPQq1l2v for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D8353A0C52 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id b16so6857258qtt.7 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=SFR23N18lYPn5QRrHVfj/U2fZoWZe9gCKlCEhyIrIdk=; b=g+u4YAwzlJqotZplY6tccaAiSas4BXPImlZ+Ar6NgIjlrM0gqQzcGudtpFBN1U35DE 88W4G251zP2lEmCwdsr2hxdCRc4lYqO9lqdTEpe/tjoP8aAjtMD66lmmBEVxuaRlxdV1 eQ/XmFN7xarrheYSWs51Azm7D8VwCNIh+Hy1XwQus4/TCfdl8B/hICP9/MdeR2nuaSg9 xeccMgkTeNwLAE5WunGoECwh2wH5xJNQ6DlZAYrlRL+b1fvYd90gmVsLQVisj7nRBZd9 7MkkZJWEUwNh6YM0MippOoNOQi4oCkfsRfgEZM44tYSGE+ZO4vR9UfgRUBI2++Kk1MOz 5yMg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=SFR23N18lYPn5QRrHVfj/U2fZoWZe9gCKlCEhyIrIdk=; b=jw9x3CsqzgHmCXPd6ZXvy+QstUYbboBbocFdGY+mEUh+ih1G1kBwwtDVJNX92Lq3/N MOYphHK2xkLNousfjMf96EXhNujk0pM9TKhiYqTVJTbNM2oBCNATeie6zPo9gya5GVvY lRco0NHTnMpkEse61U5YRXVrHaYAK7pMlkSO+nG/9l3lSlGuvF0F1FTzqpwKVM8JTpTQ M2J8b1Vc8ZjqqqKAZkubPzDiEQFaZL02tsZY6Xi7S9+HsiO5jjgzgVE4s6jxForUFsB6 cYxh5QnT0njieWIW0oDtc7vPGZvhTK0N+fp+vjKa6od9C2wksbefiE9Yf2Z/4XmWzN4z F1Xw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531T37VsFPPealSCiUI8hQ8vspOyn8+QrYesqjdt4KOjnmCqt1s0 vjuaxBo4ap0E07gYjlHuRQfhUtBGIIvTIz9o
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzD9d1yYDLwwB5TY6Bxxdg0X+6TkR2qccafJkFwjgtaLdbUNpPDz6hMf6bS2qEv8792CGzWgQ==
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7044:: with SMTP id y4mr6226086qtm.64.1633626892177; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:14:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q8sm73931qtl.80.2021.10.07.10.14.51 for  (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:14:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C9EDCCD7-B5B7-4D06-8F5A-A0EDB13E5CAC"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 13:14:50 -0400
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
To: rfced-future@iab.org
In-Reply-To: <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:15:00 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_C9EDCCD7-B5B7-4D06-8F5A-A0EDB13E5CAC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.

I think the current proposed text is:

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
voting members.

Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually done =
under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under exceptional =
circumstances.


Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

Brian

> On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> On 06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter =
=20
> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be =
replaced=20
> rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse =
for the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members =
would be=20
> appointed for unplanned vacancies.
>>=20
>> That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and =
IAB streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement =
from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.
>=20
> I'm not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking =
about acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB decisions, by =
their nature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean that some =
months of delay is acceptable either. We need to find some middle =
ground.
>=20
>   Brian
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


--Apple-Mail=_C9EDCCD7-B5B7-4D06-8F5A-A0EDB13E5CAC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

There=
 have been some private discussions of the current state of the text, =
but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.

I think the current proposed text =
is:

The =
appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing delegates, such as provision for an open =
nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to =
replace such a delegate for
any reason, then for =
the sake of continuity the appointing body
should =
name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are =
seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies =
with all due speed, if
necessary on a temporary =
basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
ISE is =
incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing =
body
for the IRTF chair and ISE =
respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of =
its
voting members.

Mirja proposed =
replacing the last line with:
While the RSAB is considered quorate =
even if it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is expected that document approvals =
are usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents =
under exceptional circumstances.


Could =
we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
1. Can =
you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s =
edit
2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s=
 edit
3. If you can live with both, which do you =
prefer?

Brian

On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On =
06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:


On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> 
wrote:

Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction =
cannot be replaced 
rapidly, so =
cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse for the other =
streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would be 
appointed for unplanned vacancies.

That=E2=80=99s a big =
assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and IAB streams, since =
there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement from, but I=E2=80=99=
m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.

I'm not talking about an acting =
IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking about acting members of the RSAB. =
I do agree that RSAB decisions, by their nature, are never urgent; =
however, that doesn't mean that some months of delay is acceptable =
either. We need to find some middle ground.

 =
  Brian

-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

=

--Apple-Mail=_C9EDCCD7-B5B7-4D06-8F5A-A0EDB13E5CAC--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 10:35:13 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72A23A0CB9 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 10:35:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0rvMtEJELoC7 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3A843A0CB7 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id h10so221261ilq.3 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AIdw7q15vWrAftDjHsO84sRpV9muO/1luNnlYJae0hU=; b=ZOw05Px6PMws6fAf4FtZNayCDQhhWLif0RJm9YdD+Stqpdonk4uEFYb3JpMpI+hEhd GEhAzrvQR/f6hPdi9v2uWslsn5D6zLgQV0mb4qPMrs3tiGSJDt4HcTT4fJVGZ8LxfxH/ l6Or+9S/uq/sVD1jVmiusYurvfnTFiNIm4kGk=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AIdw7q15vWrAftDjHsO84sRpV9muO/1luNnlYJae0hU=; b=yzLeAQ2kDodPgv6AQPc+kzKEs8uYQdAMRO8xMy3Mrak32ZIqHoutz54XOSBD2TC21f lZPSGlKEvMIT3JkheGxHiFuWWsCbyMU4O3Szn1lATirSVPCtlv3C2G09aF05hHEzMgPq ym0oIX2b6GDTAMYFQXGrCVkiW2ohTzDJRlhIzO7Yoj7Yu6+nD+qAScRyD1EAB3UAdhTY SO+R/yn+oHP0Lqn4qjPQGCJ+cKizZ8+xV0VkmEZ8hs8s8sOJ7KWAKqUGM4KBMNsmxGC9 Ct1LnRG7rRRnRpfQF/mi9qBfzGh5srdGaQoIcyG+dJDBnk0e6Oqnrib2L16vKEuaMFH/ GViA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321nVafzbISRSCkWUwIhhLrSlQ+ms6NQY++u5vOX/lyOoQJGoBZ 9SShVQCKxbqLAYXWeH2aG6bisQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJW9WOV7eKzfNKjllSFfJBxaeok6nI/3JopzT9nPxkOMGQo0Ya3DyuHKtQrYorm3FeZhWe5w==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1a0e:: with SMTP id s14mr4262721ild.197.1633628105822;  Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a16sm91979ilc.83.2021.10.07.10.35.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <202bb841-f1d3-d810-6ba3-ce797795cd1b@mozilla.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:35:04 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:35:10 -0000

On 10/7/21 11:14 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the 
> text, but we don’t seem to be converging.
> 
> I think the current proposed text is:
> 
>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> 
>     The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>     voting members.
> 
> 
> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
> 
>     While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
>     voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually
>     done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under
>     exceptional circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja’s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja’s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

Mirja's edit seems good, although concerns have been raised before about 
requiring the RSCE to be seated (since it's harder to fill that vacancy).

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct  7 11:20:48 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D473A0D57 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:20:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6tQE7aWYc018 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2B073A0D56 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id t11so7318263ilf.11 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=v6cR5fbQLh+yvy+3Z97gXRFmvtAhaJBy1uivxKuIBlE=; b=t5hPa0eLeslj+1/cqmxQ3ZZxXXsoIcIj/67K7kEVCk9Sm8eEZftP0RW4D0/bmfZqUD h4wUmGCyD6UU9RjKn5jREOXDxUL4CSIxVeY5wYRuXG7n5TeS0mUv9ExfU+tL9a4WjOEm CYhwsJTf2HWFUv7zn7GmcGZx4byFvU3po4Y9L4O8+lRhlMu0CNb8F8+7ZHB0I140Lr+E eNt2LuVWD35NozeMDzZHSU5A/qHZ0Yz10lChCWeEatFbQG5MvSLxnOgUfWSt7MoTvqCe VTeLWpKdQHOq+AyvgZKDbYkoflhT04FXtgr/b7dP2RopU6YHh/nw8e1BUsKfkI8mSueO nZig==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=v6cR5fbQLh+yvy+3Z97gXRFmvtAhaJBy1uivxKuIBlE=; b=bWnQQg9va+RcgoT1A1dODHruEQcqPC1vFz714zAH7MXu5uMTS9ZANdiba/uNgz4QXQ 4Nje8YZU3FQ6kiZvb5Zc5pFRA9kO9ccmC1lq0KFLQvcC/lXe/fN6Pdii7f0c+SBgRm9n nyXmlVUAiGJlBfhI34jVk6OoAzmvU9z8v57QIZt1JFOsACAA8EIG8NK75phMRHNlWALI NgcGjBmFvjWWaJBkHKSbGJBMXqctxGm0L8j5j4ZcvOu96upuWprglByOh3lqqqhMzLMF tck3Qt1MVj/PGzOEDYR+ZrcxrPeLPzlZmDJB078OTGjmKzw3o54S4O+y8BdXNcY90SP0 A+nQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334pC/TsB8aY55gB+K3HUvA8oDGjgE9jAT5LP/mLFi7RJZOK0Co LDFPUSOUN5lC+LTkn3UqLtkPN8H6bBy94322
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJybSNQMDI/zbOvANDIa7XWALJjsrE3IJV07Q+sVadxwT4g48QfTYGdE+s2tTmIUF/rvWijm/w==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1408:: with SMTP id n8mr4381752ilo.105.1633630841584;  Thu, 07 Oct 2021 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple ([24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x4sm54763ilm.7.2021.10.07.11.20.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: <202bb841-f1d3-d810-6ba3-ce797795cd1b@mozilla.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:20:38 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <7FDFEF04-6BB7-4B41-BF23-385C43A5B00C@brianrosen.net>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <202bb841-f1d3-d810-6ba3-ce797795cd1b@mozilla.com>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:20:47 -0000

Mirja=E2=80=99s edit still says it=E2=80=99s quorate with a vacancy, so =
there should be no holding up of important progress in the RSWG in the =
absence of an RSCE. =20
It=E2=80=99s up to the RSAB members still in office to determine what is =
=E2=80=9Ctime-critical=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cexceptional =
circumstances=E2=80=9D, right?

Brian

> On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:35 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> On 10/7/21 11:14 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>> I think the current proposed text is:
>>    The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>    appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>    period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>    any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>    should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>    Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>    all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>    necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>    ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>    this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>    for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>    The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>>    voting members.
>> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>>    While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more =
of its
>>    voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually
>>    done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under
>>    exceptional circumstances.
>> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>=20
> Mirja's edit seems good, although concerns have been raised before =
about requiring the RSCE to be seated (since it's harder to fill that =
vacancy).
>=20
> Peter


From nobody Thu Oct  7 11:30:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288643A088D for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 895PtXZ_lcVO for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90BC23A0899 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE290300C4D for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id TcB9ajxlZR-b for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:30:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8482B300BBA; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:30:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Russ Housley 
Message-Id: <00B50B97-B9AE-4A41-833A-DF33AE54B410@vigilsec.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0B728C1A-5983-4980-B69C-66BF90DD7BC5"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:30:06 -0400
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
To: Brian Rosen 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:30:16 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_0B728C1A-5983-4980-B69C-66BF90DD7BC5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8


> On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:14 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>=20
> I think the current proposed text is:
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>=20
> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =
its
> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.
>=20
>=20
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

I choose 3, with a preference for including Mirja's text.

That said, the phrase "such as provision for an open nominations period" =
does not really add value, so I think it should be dropped.

Russ


--Apple-Mail=_0B728C1A-5983-4980-B69C-66BF90DD7BC5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:14 PM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> =
wrote:

There have been some =
private discussions of the current state of the text, but we don=E2=80=99t=
 seem to be converging.

I think the current proposed text is:

The appointing bodies shall =
determine their own processes for
appointing =
delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate =
for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the =
appointing body
should name a new delegate to =
complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing =
bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, =
if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that =
the IRTF chair or
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise =
unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility =
shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
for =
the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if =
lacks one or more of its
voting =
members.

Mirja proposed replacing =
the last line with:
While the RSAB is considered quorate even if =
it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is expected that document =
approvals are usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical =
documents under exceptional =
circumstances.


Could we please see where we are on this by an informal =
poll:
1. Can you live with the proposed text =
without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
2. Can you live with =
the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
3. If =
you can live with both, which do you =
prefer?

I choose 3, with a preference for including Mirja's text.

That=
 said, the phrase "such as provision for an open nominations period" =
does not really add value, so I think it should be dropped.

Russ

=

--Apple-Mail=_0B728C1A-5983-4980-B69C-66BF90DD7BC5--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 11:34:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90A73A0896 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Irhcr-F2LK1g for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E8A43A08FC for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A76300BC8 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:34:45 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id W1_FeRp_FqoP for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:34:43 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F0EE300B53; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:34:43 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Russ Housley 
In-Reply-To: <76717AD4-6D9D-4F84-A5A2-BCC7B60C7D4D@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:34:40 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <7CA042BF-0554-447C-A259-5B8C37A959AA@vigilsec.com>
References:  <76717AD4-6D9D-4F84-A5A2-BCC7B60C7D4D@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:34:50 -0000

> On Oct 7, 2021, at 9:20 AM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
>> On Oct 7, 2021, at 6:14 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFHi
>>=20
>> On 07.10.21 13:53, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>> On 7 Oct 2021, at 00:10, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Russ, thanks for the extra feedback. In what follows I've elided =
straightforward editorial issues (or things I'd already noticed and =
fixed in my working copy) so that we can focus on topics that might need =
discussion on list.
>>>>=20
>>>> On 10/4/21 1:04 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> Section 3.2.5 says:
>>>>>   See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716].
>>>>> Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG =
participants, it is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the =
participants.
>>>> I see your point. Although those references could be informative =
for readers, I'm not confident that the specific procedures for =
enforcing the IETF anti-harrassment policy (e.g., the Ombudsteam) could =
or should also apply to the RSWG/RSAB. Can someone enlighten us in this =
regard?
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> If the ombudsteam are willing, it probably makes it easier for =
everyone if the new group uses the same anti-harassment policy and =
reporting procedures as the IETF. The IETF policy is good enough, and =
there=E2=80=99s enough overlap in participation that having a different =
policy will only lead to confusion.
>>>=20
>>> The IRTF follows the IETF policy in this regard, for similar =
reasons.
>>>=20
>> The references are simply about the definition of the term and how to =
report.  To me they are appropriate.  If Russ prefers, we could expand =
"see also" to "for further information about these policies, see...".=20
>=20
> WFM

WFM too.

Russ


From nobody Thu Oct  7 11:36:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830AC3A0D23 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcBPjnJS3v_2 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 965073A0896 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE82300C44 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:36:41 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id jo9xtNxMZna6 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:36:40 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE8C0300B5C; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:36:39 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Russ Housley 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:36:36 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6BCFE3FE-7B35-49D1-B6B5-AFAD33B31BCC@vigilsec.com>
References:  
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:36:43 -0000

Peter:

>> Also, this raises a question about the title of this document.  This =
text says that this document is Version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.  =
Given the titles of [RFC5620] and [RFC6635], why is this not RFC Editor =
Model (Version 3)?
>=20
> At the time I changed the title, we were discussing on list various =
kinds of confusion about what "RFC Editor" means. But I tend to agree =
that for the sake of continuity it's probably best to change it back.

That will be an improvement in my mind.

>=20
>> Section 2 says:
>>    Discussion within the RFCED-Future Program has led in the =
direction
>>    of a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some respects =
to
>>    the structure of technical work within the IETF or IRTF) that =
retains
>>    roles for specialized expertise in document editing and =
publication.
>> I suggest that we drop this paragraph.  Without a lot more context =
about the RFCED-Future Program, this will not mean anything in a few =
years.
>=20
> I suggest instead to retain a modified version of this text:
>=20
> By contrast, Version 3 of the RFC Editor Model, specified here,
> provides a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some
> respects to the structure of technical work within the IETF or
> IRTF) that retains roles for specialized expertise in document
> editing and publication.

That is much better.  Thanks.

>> Section 3.2.3 says that the community call for comment must include:
>>    o  A URL for the proposal document
>> Does it have to be an Internet-Draft?  I hope so.  The RPC does not =
really have a process for other things, like a Google Doc.
>=20
> I'll change that to:
>=20
> * A URL to the Internet-Draft that defines the proposal
>=20
> (In =C2=A73.2.2 we say that proposals need to be Internet-Drafts.)

That is much more clear to me.

>> Section 3.2.5 says:
>>    See also [RFC7154], [RFC7776], and [RFC8716].
>> Since this is a section about expected behavior of RSWG participants, =
it is not clear what "see also" is imposing on the participants.
>=20
> I see your point. Although those references could be informative for =
readers, I'm not confident that the specific procedures for enforcing =
the IETF anti-harrassment policy (e.g., the Ombudsteam) could or should =
also apply to the RSWG/RSAB. Can someone enlighten us in this regard?

This one was already resolved.

Russ=


From nobody Thu Oct  7 11:47:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B463A0DB5 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:47:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KWwjQcMxgA_W for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6DB63A0DB4 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:47:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=bLZF+uS0/9TdiGGiMbw8T8eusNcQLzk6mIVG9rM81/g=; b=tZdxRq1CIYTo4DlQdIAcD7KRJ3 9c0DLZl/2ysXhjg/UNMnZjYGuKIK+IL9sYseDRP6PjU/kUlVLvhv4ufwYnln4b3e2TVd3hKWVn6UE UE583169iEgppfRLq0kNXy9MeZnoXkO4XoznFjh2HGkskWEpbpPxZp7WCEeaKYj00yTThfDv8lErx rkjozzFe3bdJJmyMdYhBzVyKn8FE7TsaA4BnYNEdZrI45Mu4wNOw2u/FidkXp2y2cZ/g+sIg8zydc RtisSULwFPK3kKafFC+mW+9ymlb+KJtgXJ/Gln1YnC5w4i59ALnHdmqBwPNhUUuP7jydQ+HJEO6of acDCxvWw==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=46126 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mYYQZ-0002R2-CO; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:47:35 +0100
From: Colin Perkins 
Message-Id: <2F6F5A38-01F8-4C54-A97D-4106D0E7393F@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6A5E9F7-E7E5-42D6-91AF-D1B5EE3FC41B"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:47:33 +0100
In-Reply-To: <00B50B97-B9AE-4A41-833A-DF33AE54B410@vigilsec.com>
Cc: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
To: Russ Housley 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <00B50B97-B9AE-4A41-833A-DF33AE54B410@vigilsec.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:47:44 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_C6A5E9F7-E7E5-42D6-91AF-D1B5EE3FC41B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

> On 7 Oct 2021, at 19:30, Russ Housley  wrote:
>> On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:14 PM, Brian Rosen > wrote:
>>=20
>> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>>=20
>> I think the current proposed text is:
>>=20
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>=20
>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>> voting members.
>>=20
>> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =
its
>> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>=20
> I choose 3, with a preference for including Mirja's text.

I can live with option 2 (the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit), =
but I=E2=80=99d prefer the RSAB require all voting members to be seated =
to be quorate.

> That said, the phrase "such as provision for an open nominations =
period" does not really add value, so I think it should be dropped.


No objection.

Colin


--Apple-Mail=_C6A5E9F7-E7E5-42D6-91AF-D1B5EE3FC41B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8


On =
7 Oct 2021, at 19:30, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:
On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:14 PM, Brian Rosen =
<br@brianrosen.net> wrote:

There have been some =
private discussions of the current state of the text, but we don=E2=80=99t=
 seem to be converging.

I think the current proposed text is:

The appointing bodies shall =
determine their own processes for
appointing =
delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate =
for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the =
appointing body
should name a new delegate to =
complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing =
bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, =
if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that =
the IRTF chair or
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise =
unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility =
shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
for =
the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if =
lacks one or more of its
voting =
members.

Mirja proposed replacing =
the last line with:
While the RSAB is considered quorate even if =
it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is expected that document =
approvals are usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical =
documents under exceptional =
circumstances.


Could we please see where we are on this by an informal =
poll:
1. Can you live with the proposed text =
without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
2. Can you live with =
the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
3. If =
you can live with both, which do you =
prefer?

I choose 3, with a preference for including Mirja's =
text.

I can =
live with option 2 (the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit), but =
I=E2=80=99d prefer the RSAB require all voting members to be seated to =
be quorate.

That =
said, the phrase "such as provision for an open nominations period" does =
not really add value, so I think it should be =
dropped.

No =
objection.

Colin

=

--Apple-Mail=_C6A5E9F7-E7E5-42D6-91AF-D1B5EE3FC41B--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 11:50:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D0A3A0DBC for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.551
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZwqAwTB1dqH4 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BA813A0DBA for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 197G1CKw010543; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:50:37 +0100
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=ny/B6PgxAw84p86wnbiFMK2ZdRRmsinmVJVHK7Hhk7A=; b=XmX4Bt3A3zIYlxqOSCZIKqXzlZryPROYmSZ/c+9JnVcBspEDLElchrE/Qr+xKYW8SCAA +Qxr2+jsAH/fe2WRelwVuv/I1q87pW9KumsP4iHYgmcfskaHTyYWwlSlk3ya7Oqgj3EL ekH/UhAuP1cCYN8xDruwok3yK9U1PnHOtg/LjgSAalLklIy8Gd7hQLHeEFMFzxce4oWA CizvUN5PUGWP9w27QD2R9R/rIR1ZiumBHiL7o6M4izedc2Y2Vq0TCz34tIey3+S2N5pl /Zh/UvjKhxJ9N5/FgRMgUgbOoIZV5FHgwLQQ0uSotXB1KSb3Ynzb4Xpm6MWzl8mr3rhl 7w== 
Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 3bj0yn7x42-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:50:37 +0100
Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 197IYO8u000375; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:50:36 -0700
Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3bgvpj3e7w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 11:50:36 -0700
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:50:36 -0400
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:50:36 -0400
From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Brian Rosen 
CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
Thread-Index: AQHXtoU0HfYu6hMCeESB7q7AWuRuY6u+oJgAgAAFtQCAAAI8AIAAKUAAgAABLwCAAANBgIAEXb+AgAA0cYCAAAlBAIAABpmAgAAAzgCAAAIhgIAABLeAgAABMYCAAD65gIAAFXIAgAAGYQCAABgHAIAABzEAgAATyACAAPZ0AIAAESEAgAAsMICAABYsgIAAib+AgAADTwCAAAlPgIAAAlMAgAATr4CAAAFHgIAAqukAgAFiiQCAABUIAP//wquA
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:50:35 +0000
Message-ID: <12BB534B-284D-48C3-A875-01B379ED19B4@akamai.com>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <00B50B97-B9AE-4A41-833A-DF33AE54B410@vigilsec.com>
In-Reply-To: <00B50B97-B9AE-4A41-833A-DF33AE54B410@vigilsec.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.54.21092901
x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <2D9C1B6B8E9DAB4AB3D8611DF221C285@akamai.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-10-07_03:2021-10-07, 2021-10-07 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110070119
X-Proofpoint-GUID: twdvLrXzL4FmPtA1LktE5uEi2aZxUNJE
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: twdvLrXzL4FmPtA1LktE5uEi2aZxUNJE
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-10-07_03,2021-10-07_02,2020-04-07_01
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110070120
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:50:44 -0000
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From nobody Thu Oct  7 12:33:56 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777EC3A0DD1 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 12:33:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SylkWGwWtCvI for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 12:33:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 681CF3A0DF9 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 12:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01583300C4F for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 15:33:41 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id nI9cFVr2LUyE for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 15:33:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55537300BE1; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 15:33:39 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Russ Housley 
In-Reply-To: <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:33:36 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <085E587C-CEC3-4085-83D9-A20ACDC2EF76@vigilsec.com> <1385a039-77c7-1412-e2e5-f002038c0729@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Completeness Review
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:33:55 -0000

> On Oct 5, 2021, at 9:40 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Russ, thanks for your review. Comments inline.
>=20
> (Meta point for the chairs: should we open GitHub issues to track =
these?)
>=20
> On 10/4/21 1:03 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>> At the interim, I was asked to go through =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-03 and make sure that it covers all of the =
topics in RFC 8782.  I bring my findings to the mail list for =
consideration.
>> RFC 8728 says, "The IAB maintains its responsibilities as defined in =
[RFC2850]."  If this document is approved, that will not be the case.  I =
think that a section about the IAB should appear in Appendix B.
>=20
> Good point. Here is proposed text:
>=20
> Under earlier versions of the RFC Editor Model, the IAB was
> responsible for oversight of the RFC Series and acted as a body
> for final conflict esolution regarding the Series. The IAB's
> uthority in these matters is described in the IAB's charter
> {{RFC2850}}. Under version 2 of the Model, the IAB delegated some
> of its authority to the RFC Series Oversight Committee (see below).
> Under version 3 of the Model, authority for policy definition
> resides with the RSWG as an independent venue for work by members
> of the community (with approval of policy proposals as the
> responsibility of the RSAB, representing the streams and the RSCE),
> whereas authority for policy implementation ultimately resides with
> the IETF LLC.

I think that this should be expanded to indicate that the IAB still =
handles appeals

Also:
s/esolution/resolution/
s/uthority/authority/

>=20
>> RFC 8728 explain what a stream is, but the new document assumes this =
is already known to the reader.  I think this text can be added to the =
Introduction to close this gap:
>>    In this model, documents are produced and approved through =
multiple
>>    document streams.  The stream manager for each stream is =
responsible
>>    for the content of that stream.  The RFC Editor function is =
responsible for
>>    the packaging and distribution of the documents.  As such, =
documents
>>    from these streams are edited and published by the Production =
Center.
>> RFC 8728 says, "The four streams that now exist are described in =
[RFC8729]."  I thin the Introduction should says this, and then =
immediately introduce the addition of the Editorial Stream.
>=20
> Agreed.
>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes:
>>    In undertaking this evolution, the IAB considered
>>    changes that increase flexibility and operational support options,
>>    provide for the orderly succession of the RFC Editor, and ensure =
the
>>    continuity of the RFC Series, while maintaining RFC quality,
>>    maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility,
>>    reducing costs, and increasing cost transparency.  The model set
>>    forth below describes the internal organization of the RFC Editor,
>>    while remaining consistent with RFC 8729.
>> There is nothing in the new document that lays out similar =
principles.
>> Clearly, orderly succession of the RFC Editor is quite different in =
the new model, but I hope that we are trying to preserve the other =
things listed here.
>=20
> This is somewhat conjectural, but here is proposed text:
>=20
> In 2020, following up on meetings led by the RFC Series Editor
> in 2019, the IAB formed an open program to conduct a community
> discussion and consensus process for the further evolution of
> the RFC Editor model. Under the auspices of this program, the
> community considered changes that would increase transparency
> and community input regarding the definition of policies for
> the RFC Series as a whole, while at the same time ensuring the
> continuity of the RFC Series, maintaining RFC quality,
> maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility,
> and clarifying lines of authority and responsibility.

The first line is not a complete thought.  The rst look fine to me.

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 1.1 includes:
>>    Note that RFC 8729 uses the term "RFC Editor function" or "RFC
>>    Editor" as the collective set of responsibilities for which this =
memo
>>    provides a model for internal organization.  This memo defines the
>>    term "RFC Series Editor" or "Series Editor" for one of the
>>    organizational components.
>> This would be a good addition to Section 3.1 of the new document.
>=20
> I think this is covered by text in the appendix describing changes to =
the RFC Editor Model (which, following a suggestion from John Klensin, =
will be rearranged and rewritten compared to -03 of the draft):
>=20
> ## RFC Series Editor
>=20
> Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section, the
> responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor (RSE) as a person or
> role (contrasted with the overall "RFC Editor function") are now
> split or shared amongst the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone
> or in combination). More specifically, the responsibilities of
> the RFC Series Consulting Editor (RSCE) under version 3 of the RFC
> Editor Model differ in many ways from the responsibilities of the
> RFC Series Editor under version 2 of the Model. In general,
> references in existing documents to the RSE can be taken as
> referring to the "RFC Editor function" as described herein, but
> should not be taken as referring to the RSCE.

Look good to me.

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.1 talks about how the RSE provides strategic =
leadership and management.  Some of this falls the the IETF Admin LLC, =
but strategic direction comes from community proposals to the RSWG. =
Something should be said in Appendix B.
>=20
> As above, here is proposed text from my working copy (this section =
goes directly before the one about the RSE):
>=20
> ## RFC Editor Function
>=20
> Several responsibilities previously assigned to the "RFC Editor"
> or, more precisely, the "RFC Editor function" are now performed
> by the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or in combination).
> These include various aspects of strategic leadership (Section
> 2.1.1 of {{RFC8728}}), representation of the RFC Series (Section
> 2.1.2 of {{RFC8728}}), development of RFC production and
> publication (Section 2.1.3 of {{RFC8728}}), development of the
> RFC Series (Section 2.1.4 of {{RFC8728}}), operational oversight
> (Section 3.3 of {{RFC8729}}), policy oversight (Section 3.4 of
> {{RFC8729}}), the editing, processing, and publication of
> documents (Section 4.2 of {{RFC8729}}), and development and
> maintenance of series-wide guidelines and rules (Section 4.4 of
> {{RFC8729}}). In addition, various details regarding these
> responsibilities have been modified to accord with the new
> framework defined in this document.

I think this is fine, but "accord" does not seem like the right word in =
the last sentence.  Maybe it should be "align".

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.2 talks about how the RSE represents the RFC =
Series.  Representation does not get assigned to any role.  If that is =
the intent, then something should be said in Appendix B.
>=20
> I think we agreed to text like this:
>=20
> =46rom time to time, individuals or organizations external to the IETF
> and the broader RFC Series community may have questions about the RFC =
Series. Such inquiries should be directed to the =
rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org email alias and then handled by the =
appropriate bodies (e.g., RSAB, RPC) or individuals (e.g., RSWG chairs, =
RSCE).

Look good to me.

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.3 talks about how the RSE develops the RFC =
Production Center.  This falls to the IETF Admin LLC, I think. I cannot =
find anything to confirm that opinion.  We need to add something to =
cover it.
>=20
> I'm not quite sure where this falls. Some of it might fall to the LLC, =
but I strongly suspect that some of it falls to the RPC itself (i.e., in =
the form of self-development). I'll try to craft some text.

Yes, I agree with that approach.  I'm looking forward to the text.

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about how the RSE supports development =
the RFC Series.  The RSCE offers advice on this topic, but I think, this =
falls to the RSWG. I cannot find anything to confirm that opinion.  We =
need to add something to cover it.
>=20
> By my reading, =C2=A72.1.4 defined aspects of the RSE's relationship =
with the community. But the RSWG *is* the community, so there's no =
longer any relationship to develop.

I think that is right with one possible point of clarification.  Suppose =
the Foo Forum wishes to publish their documents as RFCs. This might lead =
to a new stream.  How does the Foo Forum ask the community to consider =
this request?

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 2.1.4 talks about RSE and Conflict of Interest.  =
This text or something like it should apply to the RSCE too.
>=20
> Good catch, I'll add the text from =C2=A72.1.7 (changing RSE to RSCE).

Thanks.

>=20
>> RFC 8728, Section 4.2 says:
>>    The RSE is responsible for managing the RFC Editor function to
>>    operate within those budgets.
>> This is no longer the case, but I do not see anything in the RPC =
section that says it needs to operate within the IETF LLC-provided =
budget.
>=20
> We have several sentences on this:
>=20
> All matters of budget, timetable, and impact on its performance
> targets, are between the RPC and IETF LLC.
>=20
> And:
>=20
> The IETF LLC develops the work definition (the Statement of Work)
> for the RPC and manages the vendor selection process.  The work
> definition is created within the IETF LLC budget and takes into
> account the needs of stream managers as well as community input.
>=20
> And:
>=20
> The expenses discussed in this document are not new expenses. They
> have been and remain part of the IETF LLC budget.
>=20
> The RFC Series portion of the IETF LLC budget shall include funding
> to support the RSCE, the RFC Production Center, and the Independent
> Stream.
>=20
> The IETF LLC has the responsibility to approve the total RFC Editor
> budget (and the authority to deny it). All relevant parties must work
> within the IETF LLC budgetary process.

Okay.  Maybe an item in 4.3 to summarize, perhaps with pointers.

Russ


From nobody Thu Oct  7 13:50:15 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E385B3A0FD4 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7hxm3CLb8sBZ for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 13:50:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17B413A0EAC for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 13:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::5] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:5]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 197Kns3C2865315 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Oct 2021 22:49:54 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633639795; bh=ks9u7akKVRkDNYGoc9YzBhQu+r+5n3IEBID/P001FuA=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=i9Qi2A4RfJuFdDk0l/hPBtEh0LsTZ6GMp1TPjLOlhSXJmHTcC3DrtBseF8W/Wzl74 mCBKUKKmL6IOZ0Rw0BtGxL24mkhNGsi7NUH+YMHSGDF4oh1DBg/ZnLV0p9vOAkm+Y/ xNrusQsJlVocYuEFr73U9kYNbG/Ovf4LUWal72ts=
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <20b7399f-909f-625b-75d3-885f2b87a2e1@lear.ch>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 22:49:51 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xi7vPuj9o7Do55iwMqTDUZ5429PX6H6TS"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 20:50:14 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--xi7vPuj9o7Do55iwMqTDUZ5429PX6H6TS
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wGs7YlUeMTRYX7UarVEWU3eYk3Bj5k3i4";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <20b7399f-909f-625b-75d3-885f2b87a2e1@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org>
 <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk>
 <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net>
 <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>

--wGs7YlUeMTRYX7UarVEWU3eYk3Bj5k3i4
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------8373E813FE802F8AAE7942DB"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------8373E813FE802F8AAE7942DB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 07.10.21 19:14, Brian Rosen wrote:
> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the=20
> text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>
> I think the current proposed text is:
>
>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>
>     The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>     voting members.
>
>
> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>
>     While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more
>     of its
>     voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually
>     done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under
>     exceptional circumstances.
>
>
>
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?


I can live with (3).=C2=A0 I'd suggest editorially that the word "quorate=
"=20
but instead simply say that the "RSAB may conduct business".=C2=A0 Also, =

s/expect/except/, and s/it is expected/it is desirable that/, since I=20
understand that text not to be intended to be normative.

Eliot

--------------8373E813FE802F8AAE7942DB
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
<no hats>

    

    
On 07.10.21 19:14, Brian Rosen wrote:<=
br>
    

    

      
      There have been some private discussions of the current state of
      the text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
      


      

      
I think the current proposed text is:

      


      

      

        
The appointing bodies shall determine their own
          processes for

        
appointing delegates, such as provision for an
          open nominations

        
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a=

          delegate for

        
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the
          appointing body

        
should name a new delegate to complete the former=

          delegate's term.

        
Appointing bodies should ensure that voting
          members are seated at

        
all times and should fill any vacancies with all
          due speed, if

        
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that
          the IRTF chair or

        
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to
          appoint a delegate,

        
this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the
          appointing body

        
for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

        


        

        
The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one
          or more of its

        
voting members.

      

      

        

          


          

          
Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:

        

      

      

        

          

            
While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks
              one or more of its

          

        

        

          

            
voting members, it is expected that document approvals
              are usually done under full quorum, expect for
              time-critical documents under exceptional circumstances.
          

        

      

      

        


        

        


        

        
Could we please see where we are on this by an informal
          poll:

        
1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99=
s edit

        
2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s =
edit

        
3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

      

    

    


    

    
I can live with (3).=C2=A0 I'd suggest editorially that the word
      "quorate" but instead simply say that the "RSAB may conduct
      business".=C2=A0 Also, s/expect/except/, and s/it is expected/it is=

      desirable that/, since I understand that text not to be intended
      to be normative.

    

    Eliot

  


--------------8373E813FE802F8AAE7942DB--

--wGs7YlUeMTRYX7UarVEWU3eYk3Bj5k3i4--

--xi7vPuj9o7Do55iwMqTDUZ5429PX6H6TS
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFfXW8FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMN
cQgArrI+RdwPVxG3J3BdbhyRN5yXqgCsEP/KA/niBxw8lDd93IDe8WScZlsjvUxdgXceEVIgT8RL
kb2mJJOX1rMm6/OPTTU/N7KWYjdA3DvOlm/kZZg2jHfLJ6wsIEAdtfsA8qyZQIji6DIY9y3HxtHu
K6VLuNCI6EywS9LoS9xeW79WaTmRemOQxArO0a2gxSxr/IW1Gbt3JqgmAiwWowp7snTsI2Mbbh64
Cv4pTEhU/Q5uSE4jOUwTRa5Qvc3csWvKo49x5JuBcs0XKhvXyV/ZTowcEKwh6TO1vw2azqcv4ReO
penvXOntBrlaiGO8753ToTX9bDKuKNm40M9A0JGErQ==
=swCY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--xi7vPuj9o7Do55iwMqTDUZ5429PX6H6TS--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 14:44:47 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4693A0FD7 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:44:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o3OboXj2YpFV for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADF093A0FBA for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E704112A5E; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7WeyLHu_kb0a; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0AC404112A5A; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Message-Id: <95EF01E0-4516-47F2-9F65-1A59ECFF94C2@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F60DB37B-32E6-4BB0-866D-7A366E2A360A"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:44:24 +1300
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
To: Brian Rosen 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 21:44:44 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_F60DB37B-32E6-4BB0-866D-7A366E2A360A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8



> On 8/10/2021, at 6:14 AM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>=20
> I think the current proposed text is:
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>=20
> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =
its
> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.
>=20
>=20
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

Three things about this text, even with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit:

1.  allows the extreme case of a single person on the RSAB being a =
quorum;
2.  does not handle temporary replacement of the RSCE for such things as =
maternity leave, etc;
3.  "full quorum" generally means "quorate" not "all voting members" and =
so this is the wrong term to use.

=46rom the LLC perspective there is only one of these that I have a view =
on, 2 above, and I recommend the following text is added as a general =
statement in the I-D (not in this section) to address this:

> "In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an =
extended period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through =
whatever recruitment process it considers appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE =
acts as the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment".=20


There=E2=80=99s no need for the LLC to have a view on the rest of this, =
but if you want to address my points 1 and 3 above then I suggest a =
further edit to the last sentence to remove the need for the RSCE, fix =
the quorum wording, limit the number of absences and simplify the =
language.

> "The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may =
also consider itself quorate in the absence of the RSCE and in the =
absence of no more than one of the other voting members, solely for the =
purpose of approving time-critical documents."



Jay

>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> On 06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter =
>=20
>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be =
replaced=20
>> rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse =
for the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members =
would be=20
>> appointed for unplanned vacancies.
>>>=20
>>> That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and =
IAB streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement =
from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.
>>=20
>> I'm not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking =
about acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB decisions, by =
their nature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean that some =
months of delay is acceptable either. We need to find some middle =
ground.
>>=20
>>   Brian
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org 
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_F60DB37B-32E6-4BB0-866D-7A366E2A360A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On 8/10/2021, at 6:14 AM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> =
wrote:

There have been some =
private discussions of the current state of the text, but we don=E2=80=99t=
 seem to be converging.

I think the current proposed text is:

The appointing bodies shall =
determine their own processes for
appointing =
delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate =
for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the =
appointing body
should name a new delegate to =
complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing =
bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, =
if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that =
the IRTF chair or
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise =
unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility =
shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
for =
the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if =
lacks one or more of its
voting =
members.

Mirja proposed replacing =
the last line with:
While the RSAB is considered quorate even if =
it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is expected that document =
approvals are usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical =
documents under exceptional =
circumstances.


Could we please see where we are on this by an informal =
poll:
1. Can you live with the proposed text =
without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
2. Can you live with =
the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
3. If =
you can live with both, which do you =
prefer?

Three things about this text, even with Mirja=E2=80=99=
s edit:

1.  allows the extreme =
case of a single person on the RSAB being a quorum;
2. =
 does not handle temporary replacement of the RSCE for such things =
as maternity leave, etc;
3.  "full quorum" generally =
means "quorate" not "all voting members" and so this is the wrong term =
to use.

=46rom the LLC perspective =
there is only one of these that I have a view on, 2 above, and I =
recommend the following text is added as a general statement in the I-D =
(not in this section) to address this:

"In =
the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended =
period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever =
recruitment process it considers appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE =
acts as the RSCE in all aspects during their term of =
appointment". 


There=E2=80=99s no need for the LLC to have a view =
on the rest of this, but if you want to address my points 1 and 3 above =
then I suggest a further edit to the last sentence to remove the need =
for the RSCE, fix the quorum wording, limit the number of absences and =
simplify the language.

"The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting =
members. The RSAB may also consider itself quorate in the absence of the =
RSCE and in the absence of no more than one of the other voting members, =
solely for the purpose of approving time-critical =
documents."


Jay


Brian

On Oct =
6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On =
06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:


On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> 
wrote:

Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction =
cannot be replaced 
rapidly, so =
cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse for the other =
streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would be 
appointed for unplanned vacancies.

That=E2=80=99s a big =
assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and IAB streams, since =
there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement from, but I=E2=80=99=
m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.

I'm not talking about an acting =
IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking about acting members of the RSAB. =
I do agree that RSAB decisions, by their nature, are never urgent; =
however, that doesn't mean that some months of delay is acceptable =
either. We need to find some middle ground.

 =
  Brian

-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- =

Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_F60DB37B-32E6-4BB0-866D-7A366E2A360A--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 14:49:22 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A413A0EFA for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IZOeRO2-q2li for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755A83A0EF8 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628514112A5E; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4l7AUkZ0Vv9x; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A459A4112A5A; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 14:49:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Message-Id: <860953DD-F48C-446F-93AB-8071C16DC17B@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6F69EA87-40B5-4614-AFE9-407CFFF9EBF7"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:49:10 +1300
In-Reply-To: <95EF01E0-4516-47F2-9F65-1A59ECFF94C2@ietf.org>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
To: Brian Rosen 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <95EF01E0-4516-47F2-9F65-1A59ECFF94C2@ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 21:49:21 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_6F69EA87-40B5-4614-AFE9-407CFFF9EBF7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8



> On 8/10/2021, at 10:44 AM, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 8/10/2021, at 6:14 AM, Brian Rosen > wrote:
>>=20
>> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>>=20
>> I think the current proposed text is:
>>=20
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>=20
>> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>> voting members.
>>=20
>> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =
its
>> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>=20
> Three things about this text, even with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit:
>=20
> 1.  allows the extreme case of a single person on the RSAB being a =
quorum;
> 2.  does not handle temporary replacement of the RSCE for such things =
as maternity leave, etc;
> 3.  "full quorum" generally means "quorate" not "all voting members" =
and so this is the wrong term to use.
>=20
> =46rom the LLC perspective there is only one of these that I have a =
view on, 2 above, and I recommend the following text is added as a =
general statement in the I-D (not in this section) to address this:
>=20
>> "In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an =
extended period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through =
whatever recruitment process it considers appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE =
acts as the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment".=20
>=20
>=20
> There=E2=80=99s no need for the LLC to have a view on the rest of =
this, but if you want to address my points 1 and 3 above then I suggest =
a further edit to the last sentence to remove the need for the RSCE, fix =
the quorum wording, limit the number of absences and simplify the =
language.
>=20
>> "The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may =
also consider itself quorate in the absence of the RSCE and in the =
absence of no more than one of the other voting members, solely for the =
purpose of approving time-critical documents."

Sorry that included something I changed my mind about as I was writing, =
so that=E2=80=99s a bit confused.  My recommended text is:

> "The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may =
also consider itself quorate in the absence of no more than two voting =
members, solely for the purpose of approving time-critical documents."

>=20


Jay

>=20
>=20
> Jay
>=20
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>>> On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter =
>=20
>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be =
replaced=20
>>> rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse =
for the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members =
would be=20
>>> appointed for unplanned vacancies.
>>>>=20
>>>> That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF =
and IAB streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a =
replacement from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for =
IRTF and ISE.
>>>=20
>>> I'm not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm =
talking about acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB =
decisions, by their nature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean =
that some months of delay is acceptable either. We need to find some =
middle ground.
>>>=20
>>>   Brian
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org 
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =

>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org 
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org 
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org 
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_6F69EA87-40B5-4614-AFE9-407CFFF9EBF7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On 8/10/2021, at 10:44 AM, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:



On 8/10/2021, at 6:14 AM, Brian =
Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:

There have been some private discussions of the =
current state of the text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be =
converging.

I think =
the current proposed text is:

The appointing bodies =
shall determine their own processes for
appointing =
delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate =
for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the =
appointing body
should name a new delegate to =
complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing =
bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, =
if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that =
the IRTF chair or
ISE is incapacitated or otherwise =
unable to appoint a delegate,
this responsibility =
shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
for =
the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

The RSAB is considered quorate even if =
lacks one or more of its
voting =
members.

Mirja proposed replacing =
the last line with:
While the RSAB is considered =
quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
voting members, it is =
expected that document approvals are usually done under full quorum, =
expect for time-critical documents under exceptional =
circumstances.


Could we please see where we are on this by an informal =
poll:
1. Can you live with the proposed text =
without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
2. Can you live with =
the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
3. If =
you can live with both, which do you =
prefer?

Three things about this text, even with =
Mirja=E2=80=99s edit:

1.  allows the extreme case of a single person on the =
RSAB being a quorum;
2.  does not handle =
temporary replacement of the RSCE for such things as maternity leave, =
etc;
3.  "full quorum" generally means =
"quorate" not "all voting members" and so this is the wrong term to =
use.

=46rom =
the LLC perspective there is only one of these that I have a view on, 2 =
above, and I recommend the following text is added as a general =
statement in the I-D (not in this section) to address this:

"In the case that the RSCE is =
expected to be unavailable for an extended period then the IETF LLC may =
appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever recruitment process it =
considers appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all =
aspects during their term of appointment". 


There=E2=80=99s no need for the LLC to have a view on the =
rest of this, but if you want to address my points 1 and 3 above then I =
suggest a further edit to the last sentence to remove the need for the =
RSCE, fix the quorum wording, limit the number of absences and simplify =
the language.

"The ordinary quorum of =
the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may also consider itself =
quorate in the absence of the RSCE and in the absence of no more than =
one of the other voting members, solely for the purpose of approving =
time-critical =
documents."

Sorry that included something I changed my mind =
about as I was writing, so that=E2=80=99s a bit confused.  My =
recommended text is:

"The =
ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may also =
consider itself quorate in the absence of no more than two voting =
members, solely for the purpose of approving time-critical =
documents."


Jay



Jay


Brian

On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On =
06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:


On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> 
wrote:

Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction =
cannot be replaced 
rapidly, so cannot be required for =
a quorum. I don't see any excuse for the other streams to have long =
gaps, assuming that acting members would be 
appointed =
for unplanned vacancies.

That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it =
makes sense for IETF and IAB streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool =
to appoint a replacement from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s =
reasonable for IRTF and ISE.

I'm=
 not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking about =
acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB decisions, by their =
nature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean that some months of =
delay is acceptable either. We need to find some middle ground.

  Brian

-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Rfced-future =
mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

-- 
Rfced-future mailing =
list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_6F69EA87-40B5-4614-AFE9-407CFFF9EBF7--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 16:23:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406CD3A12B2 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=vi9vST09; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=EuwJF28f
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id soGW7k-YBg63 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E20923A129C for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7024F5C0118; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 19:23:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:23:07 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=k cjPzSUr0VMCMFPaBNBB2Dve4HxAHIvpnT5DprkQ34w=; b=vi9vST09QAXZgPdaO FhksqEJcGrjDyj1u1BbDLnRXI39305MHi3JKR+4HLA6cBj41zGM/V13/kyOwD5WI ++i6ojR421CCCAEvRN+XA22H5wTGlnTdUs7HaUcYamb7e6wJ7069wzr7di46WRZI nQiYlFza1VzeFAiCrZEn/xasWdsBLYMMZZlZ0VCHsdVQ0fee8DgneTxvSxGYN08b TNIlRoSfSoNl+P2DiYrGnpfK4kdJTimo6QtnUF/B0zxO+fxlfiTvQVZGIIpjNggF tSKT/OSMoTZwRAGpBHuviVEYSY+QswVULlm1ccXiClpO5Bpmux87Wfcrnok/5w6b hhN1w==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=kcjPzSUr0VMCMFPaBNBB2Dve4HxAHIvpnT5DprkQ3 4w=; b=EuwJF28fwwCO+90zMZ/9WRiVsWFQPW+SCFijcHfbAZ4Gi5wMNvKnnDrGB xh5WJMZdSSNaykuaGZE0+CPnBQjgK0CUjFjEAHkpJMeqxmNZ8RIV/uYYahPFlJdL +laMT0iSJPt8jhbS2QBS82wATJO0KURh3huMnaQvaJgPd9kdHuFW2hrtZzTgdaQD Qby4E2ZGCojtzFKlr033YryI7rSottEVLl/iyk7eaO7m0CBeK/VCcnRIbb0v6WlL 40Z/5iCVSW6O7moINu/5QHnpaSMzQUYxUQqYlcC0WkWE88vD+//y5Fw4kQDegks5 7XFDBs+XqCiEHTX7mSoN9oB1qTdOg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelledgudeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteeghfevjeefvdffjeeuieeuvdevvd dvudejfedthffhvefhvdfhgfduieelffevnecuffhomhgrihhnpehirggsrdhorhhgpdhm nhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:23:03 +1100
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <021ADD3E-7152-47DD-9E16-43A80734EFC4@mnot.net>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
To: Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 23:23:15 -0000

#3 - I can live with both. Given that the spec already contains =
encouragement to fill vacancies with all due speed, I think Mirja's edit =
is unnecessary (and it could cause contention about what qualifies as =
'exceptional', but I can live with it.

Nit - The proposed text implies that the ISE and RSCE can both appoint a =
delegate, but that isn't said explicitly anywhere. I'd suggest adding a =
parenthetical 'or their delegate' to those bullet items in 3.1.2.

Cheers,


> On 8 Oct 2021, at 4:14 am, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the =
text, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>=20
> I think the current proposed text is:
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
> The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
> voting members.
>=20
> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of =
its
> voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under =
exceptional circumstances.
>=20
>=20
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> On 06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter =
=20
>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be =
replaced=20
>> rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse =
for the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members =
would be=20
>> appointed for unplanned vacancies.
>>>=20
>>> That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and =
IAB streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement =
from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.
>>=20
>> I'm not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking =
about acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB decisions, by =
their nature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean that some =
months of delay is acceptable either. We need to find some middle =
ground.
>>=20
>>   Brian
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Thu Oct  7 16:45:42 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187EC3A12D0 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=QC/Dn6P4; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=K4Rzh+6g
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSx7Y7f5PvV5 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49DAD3A12DE for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA113200C10 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 19:45:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:45:28 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=vaoCc b7QGWu46A2Qed84r1RhE6Alw8kB6Vktk8i7Ynk=; b=QC/Dn6P43mhKicuozAMHl F2nMfz1um9rJS/EK7ELfaHnhpFOBi2Jo332Z4c1QHkS8gmunfgIA/Q2LED7MSXYR rAPicCwUYjl6SuQF/GVnDE6iFzmD+2jYSg9iFLMUzMWZNnAVbgP1elVyYDFKsgr0 KbQxhwsvGJfY89BSTMGCrAwefkDFgohvykTavwnwbKmMH33PElsqw9KVOfUXDka9 S9VjsZPzkoGdpB/P1dbATbDXxILOKnSZBrpFWrjwhaQnewMVtzj8cdDWnVJaC2eL 3eadYyictRt7jnU1ZUP5RadDl7J2R5qPXx36zlA9CazLlYFDmoWk0f7oBnGyPSUz w==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=vaoCcb7QGWu46A2Qed84r1RhE6Alw8kB6Vktk8i7Y nk=; b=K4Rzh+6gPbb6JNwOdfQQHaWo2f0bqhW0hGHwEi+bHGVJsKPnYNHOldMeZ 3yAiKR06o29GFOfLXWDVll1ciiQR8LOAFibOxoCCNZpU+3E7piYkKulS8xddguiK 1b8etDqHVWUEDCpVxVs8S5ySNQ71jdq0xFnmoucfJ9P4d/BcR54ecm993R7EndRM Uy2sIxzpbmuKeNJ1toXfn/OBZ5wRxdWBOrI33I2eDpa1xepy/BUVoOxnnoqzfwl0 gNsOpdPofDyoNsA2wmfkVCdo1BO01GIRIYEhUn+X1NYNoS5EY74Bmd6w2ZIN+UTt 3lV2+ndczJWvqJc6gEttY0rkHXFmw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelledgvddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfejueduieffledtge elheejvdettdejudduhefggeefgfekgfeuieetgefftddtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnh gvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 30E1B3C0246; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 19:45:28 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1331-g5ae342296a-fm-20211005.001-g5ae34229
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org> <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 10:45:09 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 23:45:40 -0000

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, at 04:14, Brian Rosen wrote:
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mea=
n that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order=
 to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?

I also don't really like the implication that there might be an emergenc=
y and would prefer to have that clause struck.


From nobody Thu Oct  7 16:55:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D880B3A12F3 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=nPMqMLNy; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iq9z5Io1
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0JA3A5oJlyq for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D71BC3A12F2 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 16:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89303200DA8; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 19:55:48 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:55:49 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=t gRZWItQD1QucvMmHJr60VlshJOseBCJLI1Snb3Klfc=; b=nPMqMLNyf6LsGnNWt fCnGEEiQxscsqAPw7R6XefMB7caxN3zntxCknqPRkAr3ZPKrR4U4iFs5+57g7RpM nVK1w2ME1dgYTZJ5nNFXFdsnqccFEOs9L9URdUISvEcoAV4lX5cPqH0DMelvn5Ia iR7hduKH2LIzIrtcvkqud9fzjVyXL4Fe6qHzroqT0CtHNIj9W36rmcycShKlvNCh H4O7N60QkuVWJAC9r/USt4raILQ8xjWZKImvKp+r5SUj5J5M5uctt9LlinJo77/e BcyOmwf8YP/icxDkgor8uHz24riTuFefvVyF9bAkytPC1wtS04vZGrGCk5ceJpaJ Cv4/w==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=tgRZWItQD1QucvMmHJr60VlshJOseBCJLI1Snb3Kl fc=; b=iq9z5Io1uu70U8cQQkyeWkYeemL0kltDNG68e6pmSn+OQCuPm40ooZgp0 4maNPLC9aJ07SzAheVKEIDURGEoVIfPk7BteC0JKIYsuvOD+TS6W+dwzwGbsmy9Y m+pQxS2IStxl9FyZDQ+SKrsIKmORziPwCgE0JUXrRrWcXZdvtwRJjHV/I5OSfkJ0 bHbhayNk4csvgEbOjJ4COcNMbiMk6rtiAydBWGMl9/bIN2hGX+1+XNE6/WMopDe5 hNPmCxbOJ08BkGJ3PH/2w677bkDEmA9lnlqM0H5wsYElhatb8XWlroM+gZ36ANiV ThDEz6fU3B9ibXia2DvBRQU2sH8FQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelledgvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:55:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <9011a1bc-415a-6091-5159-b4cbdc0b7f3b@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:55:43 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Mark Nottingham , Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <021ADD3E-7152-47DD-9E16-43A80734EFC4@mnot.net>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <021ADD3E-7152-47DD-9E16-43A80734EFC4@mnot.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 23:55:57 -0000

On 10/7/21 5:23 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:

> Nit - The proposed text implies that the ISE and RSCE can both appoint a delegate, but that isn't said explicitly anywhere. I'd suggest adding a parenthetical 'or their delegate' to those bullet items in 3.1.2.

AIUI the intent is that the RSCE cannot appoint a delegate, but any 
other voting member or appointing body can.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct  7 17:09:20 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 753EF3A1315 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vZ6OLAXYDqHd for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:09:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22A813A1314 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:09:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id q12so692862pgq.12 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:09:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qybciCjTDBTgRXe5XZloZQdtd7qcDk7H2YHaym8rxZU=; b=Agb7MI8OwPBG7wv8LeG/e1qlbqsbaXXO2Ny4pHkvtb3+MVli7FtYE5lgl8N6X5F8qX 6EDxewt+EWfxjGgJqNDYim6yPj0qy44jOzIfqTP4aXRD9w71kj4uYcnhcLEz5kVEC9Fe 3lyj7mF/wJR86hu6xmjVX0aAu+/YKOeKsdg2JV7zyzCtJn9cyFxSLlwMiTNbuY1pf8Dz hQZ9EhymA+w+YdUr2n1txi7/TlAY1XxFVdQ/owhNYC9YPizThA/3sFF+jg+zjiz8ajCu pOO/Q+Exfp1HHFDEgZ3nOS3aPCVv9QIrBMmIUB8xRS2a2iYhfkFU8j3/06445DK0CQmE hStw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qybciCjTDBTgRXe5XZloZQdtd7qcDk7H2YHaym8rxZU=; b=dv374uUVfBlJl3NDgiZeohq9KDaHlEIVCUX2cuY6o25YRnbHuO5uvRQ+zFVoThFQ0F EkeF0N9SRvIpe0nqvjc9pjpos6NvcJV1641xuJE1QOOyd2O6qpAZrwQkHoIDLS8OmNdH eY0M7c5aN+62vhZRBSRiXbOGrooryrpHv9zNFI+Gw1ofDODBNp/tgEhTzXUmBjE++sIu O+vt1jib4uWRf96c/EBhGTKQ1Vb+XjNHm2KJ3LCBumD1PLM3CmpaFHT21JgwTTDT74IP W+u7qjsw50dtp95QH9K1JM3m3mfMYEM5hCerh2Wqtm6/AJQsnKSxQZsugVUPsSFlxXJw 4zng==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ibkjWXA6m4WIogtIfUtLcKmHPwDL8Vp2kz4T9tweGsxSVFSkn ZmaMfwGIWqPmpVysnWHFImFeD2GNhJE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwY2FayZQXtL2PrTYM1Vzu+LhKj45uMqB7mlfokhBabqME03+NfHIw/iU52sVRywskaS++u9w==
X-Received: by 2002:a65:44c5:: with SMTP id g5mr2083131pgs.39.1633651753170; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:09:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w18sm502857pfj.170.2021.10.07.17.09.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:09:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <99603c1b-96ff-a4cb-af05-6f2d3055335c@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:09:09 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:09:19 -0000

Answering the straw poll, although I see discussion continuing:

>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit

Yes

>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit

Yes-

>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

#1

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 08-Oct-21 06:14, Brian Rosen wrote:
> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the te=
xt, but we don=E2=80=99t seem to be converging.
>=20
> I think the current proposed text is:
>=20
>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
>     The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>     voting members.
>=20
>=20
> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>=20
>     While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more o=
f its
>     voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually =
done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under exceptio=
nal circumstances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja=E2=80=99s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter > wrote:
>>
>> On 06-Oct-21 22:54, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 6 Oct 2021, at 10:49, Brian Carpenter >
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. Also the RSCE is a member & by construction cannot be replac=
ed
>> rapidly, so cannot be required for a quorum. I don't see any excuse fo=
r the other streams to have long gaps, assuming that acting members would=20
be
>> appointed for unplanned vacancies.
>>>
>>> That=E2=80=99s a big assumption=E2=80=A6 it makes sense for IETF and =
IAB streams, since there=E2=80=99s a clear pool to appoint a replacement =
from, but I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s reasonable for IRTF and ISE.
>>
>> I'm not talking about an acting IRTF Chair or acting ISE; I'm talking =
about acting members of the RSAB. I do agree that RSAB decisions, by thei=
r nature, are never urgent; however, that doesn't mean that some months o=
f delay is acceptable either. We need to find some middle ground.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Brian
>>
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org 
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct  7 17:12:03 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5063A131B for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:12:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjH8cthFe9ye for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E0BD3A1319 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id g14so6718390pfm.1 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xWQ8/OSAFbJ2O4g4fYLcUkmEXUptjjXM2b23bSBhxwM=; b=EXfrNRGb/R5I6lPRz4Dt5loJ0gKSizFH+c4e3UTS1MBlXfvQ09hOHbfaMsvDXdXr/n 6BVDWTujhvQUhdZtpcdP+dk+pul9xQQy1gnf+EyGiV4dqDlrcd297br79BmZjeCvOSlG eMKaT7fYJb5TnQmm1oKmpgvlNO/+LioLXofRi8/No4FXpKuI4lK3JPjanA4903DVk1ro /rBSovYw5qotFi+GQN4AuceFFzmaGGe00nJsYK5L9IJA+1AGkbsyVmw2I+8sIhlDzQlu eDmz9mTj5ENlLvvlX54QmBMS8nb7VRmheIORLP5xKrgo6a9B5Zq7G+loDti+wPB4pexq jR1Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xWQ8/OSAFbJ2O4g4fYLcUkmEXUptjjXM2b23bSBhxwM=; b=VQhpeXqLAFMD5y9aymp54Sl70sgywoIysrk9A0oQ+J7GUXS6fx6WRBNCy8DlSReu+N qI5YguOwzf1W+FARqgQDquYcRPJk9rqShSMNOTFrzB1EjozAMaGKIWxrbbGd+G6Oq9oE rLhUFP3cWjngHw8RlM2ENMVBaF7Ju2Yd0W/e3UnXlVoo9p9423J0hjtV3Vl9CExAmMCo byCA61kqENm4nqN1isyX1gAV/gdME9NWMKNA6wyWOiOhUD+mLbkJCyIUdNrgbWvDUcRv YzIM0BToe1ZqaE4lx1oBx8Nxs5wdjdD4OjqN/cx5bEIC9FP7eTxNHTcelISyjU4zP+JB xVxg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dseJNC4XqDkz5o0J4Bp23NZoC3n/oBWjIkpY19AgqzsWGTdGI vADze1EE1ekU85uTfS9kfhe5dqGjewA=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzb5B+aWY/hjYf2oHJNa2WgU+fy21IUjpKjeScYMKNsvyICW63B7kSPDuI9brdNQUpvkmZm7A==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:f94d:: with SMTP id q13mr2116013pgk.230.1633651918414;  Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d5sm340595pjs.53.2021.10.07.17.11.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jay Daley , Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <95EF01E0-4516-47F2-9F65-1A59ECFF94C2@ietf.org> <860953DD-F48C-446F-93AB-8071C16DC17B@ietf.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <2d183c08-015c-bd46-7163-064a5468ac26@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:11:55 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <860953DD-F48C-446F-93AB-8071C16DC17B@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:12:02 -0000

On 08-Oct-21 10:49, Jay Daley wrote:
=2E..

> Sorry that included something I changed my mind about as I was writing,=20
so that=E2=80=99s a bit confused. =C2=A0My recommended text is:
>=20
>> "The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may a=
lso consider itself quorate in the absence of no more than two voting mem=
bers, solely for the purpose of approving time-critical documents."

I could live with that too.

Brian C


From nobody Thu Oct  7 17:13:02 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87783A131E for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=A2/TalLe; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=jPd7xYji
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dMFyBuh1LNQh for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAD8E3A131B for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282EC3200E5E; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 20:12:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 20:12:53 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=K /vIveF1c/9uSlDWy/FW3g0BNGOWBeXbx+hX0kXvTOg=; b=A2/TalLebR7ujeDOt T0jGBtjCIImPdYxwTYW43+OLxC5/xedidcaXZgP0Wamh8Wo60r7nElFohCehvhk6 RzEEGsVY9+s8fQp0qapR4x1UULqKhxIf5o2TnRpXi93+UYFh1H2TtVZ0EPuzs2Di S9WEWTRkkDNuOlT0irbnv+8kRDoS/OF1prdKzjE0/fK03lgtH6EFrJFKMeofeHfG c1nt8jQD6zj6y80GhiiSiqG6fjDz1yDKHw3/G/r/+LS9d+6uhKiKzxzB0pZdk9bL s9D8NYT4SlfeFxP5VuE8psCtrprEJgqYVrS0wBrTD0lJOkupkEfVuw1f7SP1/7TV 0pFeQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=K/vIveF1c/9uSlDWy/FW3g0BNGOWBeXbx+hX0kXvT Og=; b=jPd7xYjiQEV7EiGy9ghqiT+mmwIdUbT2RtHga/sKrNUHyVyh4WKEOYqYV GM4CI5xEdr4q4OQ/fnYFcAhinf9pFSox+F25uth+1q3aIiESQaRDmTTn8XrZIhm4 sXq3yj2Oz4qf9QLK79Q8nuodFcg2xgwGZHgdAxOOaVFrqGRPRZQvYybEvMK95FPi /ui3ODKUXXIQzO6tn8wGdaZKbT7x9IXP/OdIzuliGapo197BcZ9vDcILurnAVqVx XMTv6TQvzxSsGWSnF/OmgSL1n15TDHay1zO9pPY5+yVPgAAU14WGl3Z7bau6KLfn d39YaHBGv28LX5lURa2zEASmzEUmw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudelledgvdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevtdfgteetgfffve ehtedvudegudfgleevfedtleevtefgfeeggffgfeeludekheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 20:12:51 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <374eb351-ec2e-a20e-3182-a59c22f99ca6@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:12:51 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley , Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <95EF01E0-4516-47F2-9F65-1A59ECFF94C2@ietf.org> <860953DD-F48C-446F-93AB-8071C16DC17B@ietf.org>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <860953DD-F48C-446F-93AB-8071C16DC17B@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:12:59 -0000

On 10/7/21 3:49 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 8/10/2021, at 10:44 AM, Jay Daley > > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8/10/2021, at 6:14 AM, Brian Rosen >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the 
>>> text, but we don’t seem to be converging.
>>>
>>> I think the current proposed text is:
>>>
>>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>
>>>     The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>>>     voting members.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>>>
>>>     While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more
>>>     of its
>>>     voting members, it is expected that document approvals are
>>>     usually done under full quorum, expect for time-critical
>>>     documents under exceptional circumstances.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
>>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja’s edit
>>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja’s edit
>>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>>
>> Three things about this text, even with Mirja’s edit:
>>
>> 1.  allows the extreme case of a single person on the RSAB being a quorum;

Right, we need to fix that.

>> 2.  does not handle temporary replacement of the RSCE for such things 
>> as maternity leave, etc;

What's the process? Would the IETF LLC choose the temporary delegate? 
(That seems sensible.)

>> 3.  "full quorum" generally means "quorate" not "all voting members" 
>> and so this is the wrong term to use.

ACK.

>> From the LLC perspective there is only one of these that I have a view 
>> on, 2 above, and I recommend the following text is added as a general 
>> statement in the I-D (not in this section) to address this:
>>
>>> "In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an 
>>> extended period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE 
>>> through whatever recruitment process it considers appropriate.  A 
>>> Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all aspects during their term of 
>>> appointment". 

WFM.

>> There’s no need for the LLC to have a view on the rest of this, but if 
>> you want to address my points 1 and 3 above then I suggest a further 
>> edit to the last sentence to remove the need for the RSCE, fix the 
>> quorum wording, limit the number of absences and simplify the language.
>>
>>> "The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may 
>>> also consider itself quorate in the absence of the RSCE and in the 
>>> absence of no more than one of the other voting members, solely for 
>>> the purpose of approving time-critical documents."
> 
> Sorry that included something I changed my mind about as I was writing, 
> so that’s a bit confused.  My recommended text is:
> 
>> "The ordinary quorum of the RSAB is all voting members. The RSAB may 
>> also consider itself quorate in the absence of no more than two voting 
>> members, solely for the purpose of approving time-critical documents."

Although I share Martin's concern about the definition of time-critical, 
I can live with that.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct  7 17:35:40 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26B63A00C1 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:35:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b3DE1rS3lryq for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E28A3A00C0 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 17:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id 77so6663902qkh.6 for ; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WsEmZD1+ncLh0IEIQGqYgXxi5ujdodPPPZqEbFft8t8=; b=XfPpLtC9GMNfLmkz9Y980p5iZuIqpiblZoQCQS+cvEeHo5KKKMAYdbcEYIs+HQLNCs gMhRyH5N+3eTqFtulUyZTJEJ07WJRv/m+zHfa4wIG6RixGVFxNtaJgomfG3UZ+eeGJRx jQNL6FFCozK6/qgb07f1BgzKiTGQC67TOrGTx+Lf4ZEuhlQifpmOQrWPIQGEOQiEharE /S51966WLaRRyymOr89ucl1All/Ld0inAslhQTLbOO9DHrNAZ8xL/FTVNz/DZ1EHROCt 6PyBkm460kNsLsdsVDjLV3oR8RQ5+oQ+zOMmoOduRgURcWVSwOYICN9PDoCRLnb99WQT dsvw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WsEmZD1+ncLh0IEIQGqYgXxi5ujdodPPPZqEbFft8t8=; b=i07cY2lacczseJmx45TZw18edgT1fxT0DLfSF74NGrWrpHVLd6GtBIBS1hy+c4FvC9 DPUnXE1a0muGS0bt2HNTknlKbKA+l1o8l009kB//YWopBAj3F5gZJpiDgPGYEasmM2Dx Fju5WKDeFTh2lkxSAqiaEjQr102/KIHfwrdo/Ik0XpcFkfwBASjNdpjHB8N4q90cnym8 uuck6LVGTg6spQe+PatwSbmeEdymCD0RnssMYC0msGEpHzpiSpp0jy3Aze3Q4MUwkc4s AcCIP/FEYcyL059LHty5mx5vpkoCkC6a7JqmZ2esDFbS9MJ7z+XuVbiDnWgyHGVq3VdS rdEg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Mo0WttkAuIYPGs6M1KSs3q1AFvVD4vTis5KlCcliFcVetTKfI Qg/keOJk+cjnpFG0XnKpRR8ii5MAVxW5SaNrBZY=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRop7wWvKg1FOsniVSVR+HDaN+yly/upgBTX2fk3oGBbogS/0jBNOed6pmutZ+1RgnZPMk6w==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:885:: with SMTP id 127mr401560qki.329.1633653334122; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:35:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r13sm806866qkk.73.2021.10.07.17.35.33 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Oct 2021 17:35:33 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 20:35:31 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <202bb841-f1d3-d810-6ba3-ce797795cd1b@mozilla.com> <7FDFEF04-6BB7-4B41-BF23-385C43A5B00C@brianrosen.net>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <7FDFEF04-6BB7-4B41-BF23-385C43A5B00C@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:35:38 -0000

On 10/7/2021 2:20 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> Mirja’s edit still says it’s quorate with a vacancy, so there should be no holding up of important progress in the RSWG in the absence of an RSCE.
> It’s up to the RSAB members still in office to determine what is “time-critical” and “exceptional circumstances”, right?

I'm still confused.

How many votes does it take to approve a document with 1? 2? 3? 4? 
vacancies under either version of this?

If it's a majority of the incumbent members, then 1 member-> 1 vote, 2 
members etc -> 2 votes, 3 -> 2 votes, 4-> 3 votes, 5 -> 3 votes.

If it's a majority of the whole number of voting positions, then its 1-> 
not possible, 2 -> not possible, 3->3, 4->3, 5->3.

If the quorum is 4 (Mirja's proposal) with a majority of the incumbents, 
then 3 votes are always required.

If the quorum is 3 (my proposal, for document approval), and its the 
majority of whole number of voting positions, then it's also 3.

Regardless, you need to tweak Mirja's text as "full quorum" means 
"minimum number of people necessary to do business" which she stated 
could happen with 1 less member than the "full number of voting 
positions" so it's wrong as stated.


Try

"As most business of the RSAB is expected to be done electronically, the 
quorum for regular business is the existence of at least three incumbent 
voting members.  Three yes votes are required to approve any document 
regardless of the number of incumbent members. If the RSAB lacks a 
quorum, it may only take such actions as may be specified as non-quorum 
actions elsewhere or by later documents, and it may take them only by 
unanimous consent."

I tried to craft a replacement for Mirja's "we should wait for a full 
house" language, but given the possible issues with appointing either 
the ISE or the RSCE, (and perhaps the IRTF chair), I can't figure out 
anything that's any better than a motherhood statement here.  E.g. her 
language begs the questions of a) what is a time critical document?, and 
b) how long should the RSAB wait for non-time-critical documents?, and 
c) will a non-time-critical document devolve into a time-critical 
document after some period?

Twiddle the above for the appropriate quorum levels.

Later, Mike



>
> Brian
>
>> On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:35 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>>
>> On 10/7/21 11:14 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>> There have been some private discussions of the current state of the text, but we don’t seem to be converging.
>>> I think the current proposed text is:
>>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>     The RSAB is considered quorate even if lacks one or more of its
>>>     voting members.
>>> Mirja proposed replacing the last line with:
>>>     While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
>>>     voting members, it is expected that document approvals are usually
>>>     done under full quorum, expect for time-critical documents under
>>>     exceptional circumstances.
>>> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
>>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja’s edit
>>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja’s edit
>>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
>> Mirja's edit seems good, although concerns have been raised before about requiring the RSCE to be seated (since it's harder to fill that vacancy).
>>
>> Peter



From nobody Thu Oct  7 23:18:23 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64443A0FDE for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 23:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.89
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vMNqoDMPi8Yo for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 23:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 572C53A0FEA for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 23:09:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::5] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:5]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19865wdv3136109 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:05:58 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633673164; bh=RYmTXZWWox+58CxEHpRXlAmDV0+O2KSDYKKOxLIpwRQ=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=psqT+VFtRBMG+ry24DukL9HlR51UDsKQCgHBtWByZRPV1el36H4tbwXTFwD0BFGOq 4yQBwKTbkUlAp1jVjW7bYbxUtib8E5RtF9x6ZOxXP66TsuO7r+qv6y56vgKQl1nk3r YgXu+BnGfT3O2IfsW/G5ZRFIRFZZDn9ayV2zt0RY=
To: Martin Thomson 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:05:56 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="o0D791WtYqbRMqBoXtMyrH3FDdQp0HJcu"
Archived-At: 
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 23:18:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 06:09:10 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--o0D791WtYqbRMqBoXtMyrH3FDdQp0HJcu
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="V0LZ6BwDG6DOK9PD9pJTnM2jHzvg99Y85";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <002445D5-2990-4A99-9202-65EE1629E10E@csperkins.org>
 <021401d7b955$8bc8cb70$a35a6250$@olddog.co.uk>
 <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net>
 <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
 <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>

--V0LZ6BwDG6DOK9PD9pJTnM2jHzvg99Y85
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------1D30D25056E82E03EF676C2C"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------1D30D25056E82E03EF676C2C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Hi Martin,

On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it me=
an that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order=
 to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?

This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would rather we g=
o=20
back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.

    Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members. Document
    approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present,
    but for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all
    vacancies is filled.

This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.

Eliot


--------------1D30D25056E82E03EF676C2C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
<No hats>

    

    
Hi Martin,

    

    
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson
      wrote:

    

    
=

      
3.  Though I don't concretel=
y know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be perm=
itted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to par=
ticipate?  Or does it mean something else?

    

    
This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would rath=
er
      we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify
      the text.

    

    

      
Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.=C2=A0=

        Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are
        not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months
        or when all vacancies is filled. 

      

    

    
This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
    
Eliot

    

  


--------------1D30D25056E82E03EF676C2C--

--V0LZ6BwDG6DOK9PD9pJTnM2jHzvg99Y85--

--o0D791WtYqbRMqBoXtMyrH3FDdQp0HJcu
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFf38QFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejO5
8Af/evA7qRhmUQB8UZaBZ4hFfx8LDAx/I4QJtveKRbZzUZ405g4AVVOmthYOGcZqzVZNZqcpMQrK
vs42I7wUMB6pXf1rtsManM1rWrswl3x1wwgSwRMUKLuuXDw8g/96RL38lyCq08t4wrgJtsy9kqM0
mewHxvIpnRXaTQ3ibL6Cdzh84X3WQ6riC/OmKNcAlGKNWXFAd/p20Dif2Hjol7x50VUQREIKrcEz
rgthhq3Gk6LBTx2lGRzOoE/CXAxH0dRWKC96Qj0Y7RkidklR8QB6owt6dg9QsBh4oHVfjQ3aXHL9
WhxqdiCFl0USgFr6wxZRZsv1Vys4rgZVRTO1ET+fkg==
=Eoxa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--o0D791WtYqbRMqBoXtMyrH3FDdQp0HJcu--


From nobody Thu Oct  7 23:39:09 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CEB33A127D for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 23:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2VyHMcCufFFE for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 23:39:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 288203A1287 for ; Thu,  7 Oct 2021 23:38:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::5] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:5]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1986cjmc3152122 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:38:46 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633675133; bh=xy5qFxtF/x0xcr7Vt9pKfaJzIGdUadXAKcTIE+i/jYQ=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lJb4/PXpftaKVL7z0dppr5QDUEimNuZTIR7SMwccaxJcIpS9MfhkATaRN61aYRPSk PMEw5Vb6K90ARsPHFaDBItX6+DGFD3w7L3+jZLAQC3jVaSA0d/9RKy0WOuzSnIN8zf +GHc3PJvyF1LogykfoncxdfF5NLQZ9uzbUM8CyMc=
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Martin Thomson 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:38:42 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HzQkzIWk7FAWPNXxMlNlygpkideJEG2D1"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 06:39:06 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--HzQkzIWk7FAWPNXxMlNlygpkideJEG2D1
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AX7qdcutGqyAHGjnEwkbdxAury8b7kDKE";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Martin Thomson 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
 <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
 <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>

--AX7qdcutGqyAHGjnEwkbdxAury8b7kDKE
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------B46DB178FC56CC596B5828C4"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------B46DB178FC56CC596B5828C4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please reply to=20
this one.

On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it m=
ean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in orde=
r to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?=

>
> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would rather we=
 go=20
> back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>
>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.
>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are
>     not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or
>     when all vacancies is filled.
>
> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>
> Eliot
>
>

--------------B46DB178FC56CC596B5828C4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please
      reply to this one.

    

    
On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
    

    

      
      
<No hats>

      

      
Hi Martin,

      

      
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson
        wrote:

      

      

        
3.  Though I don't concret=
ely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be pe=
rmitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to p=
articipate?  Or does it mean something else?

      

      
This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would ra=
ther
        we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify
        the text.

      

      

        
Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.=C2=A0=

          Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
          are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three
          months or when all vacancies is filled. 

        

      

      
This provides ample time for any reasonable process to
        conclude.

      
Eliot

      

      

      

    

  


--------------B46DB178FC56CC596B5828C4--

--AX7qdcutGqyAHGjnEwkbdxAury8b7kDKE--

--HzQkzIWk7FAWPNXxMlNlygpkideJEG2D1
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFf53IFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPD
TggAit4XGRH2lDiyFJpDn5m86IvSrqpyc4cby2yjjbJvITWqH12B0rYZ6I59qZnUCMs7Q+2UaiXr
cN+u+HJl1FTRdMefd4dUkWt62OKn+23ey0klQsRixSLWRtoeL/2Me9LdvH8VvVszxC1iS7ubbySb
Lq+K4SNQhQ4PWFZXnBZA0nnu39qQ18+CTx0aKS22KLq1Sip471alOBGXkD8Gdsb7MthnO9/1fAV4
qXzQiruqR1aGj7rkKnIN1buNyOCSfNaMbQmQGVN9jkeiVQWaxRe7a0rSH6unBKnhERknHLAkQQa5
Iu/Pf7/3JEUKUaW3FafyehsYWywC9f9VMzAe815RRQ==
=QK2e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--HzQkzIWk7FAWPNXxMlNlygpkideJEG2D1--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 00:43:36 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECE93A13F4 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 00:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hdcCNG5WfHd for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 00:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B2B43A13F1 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 00:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id n8so33788227lfk.6 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7idtjMk3zYQVYJbVw5IglnS6t/+dy5ZkVikvZcmBuiM=; b=o+QiD4WCzhZzE3JuKIhPU2YK8umNCZBJSL3hcJqXGDhwJgbPhKARizMyytHUpiWp7U Y/wgcrMDmhqHBQqqa1tDHbNDIKEF0hZ6G6LxmJ9IsJ7nm6qi/2aRRml2KbwxC6VvKEYe V4WsBe9+y7wscGzT3CAedkv3WOaxjjqx6rcOgAVNi5lRMmXbTS+jVoIr5DnfPgh8/zZi 4fnovzvHxYIdIrzLz6mPPflc93KPtk0tbBAcsg/LSZchCBRaXl1ok6RWPFcyRO2GE7HZ N7/5ygtoJqdAA3qd1iO3lFA7joH8MeztAytehzxGTBLIc0Hoztr3Lf3qgkE76GeJT40H AYfA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7idtjMk3zYQVYJbVw5IglnS6t/+dy5ZkVikvZcmBuiM=; b=gpznKv0KvWiPAMC3szD4Q4DRQI6xRypEBuMfT50Yrj1yC8v0PsMupc9VyG7zrxtBy2 LWfV3mqK93Zwc2uwCuxPysrqRuSHbzFbTql8yyxQTgJSM9uYRf5X6mQaYBaaQmVYdr28 ft3T82up50ZdcvBcsbbRIUDDrPOsPkj5l6vi3hS9DZ1JbtAYxMKp43+76pa7xZP+rLqi cV1s5KOS/9lHDuhIWxDzj6u5c6dyE2TdnX6qjDx+hN8Oy5t0b+sUGOAddXTcMCH3ByTG VsiwXEuUdONQkwMkuEI8g3C3RNGBWuVvZu+NUQ4aXHA6+oiYENvB6k4KsBICaezdOqV2 /RYQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rT4x4EYv12zalUhkI8I3IQ4pFzIpW7b4aJv5ra2iO9lbrTDIk zDmht3HAfay/sB3Bzdm49dny65IouFX5Vsf+HrUT800slWY=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrW8+XjNgpLSPg0dbeiOfJqkH1sYR+aL6C1VQPZr0m6WA5gc2lV2oO5TyBGwF1usmNwXeX2+adozvTWoL4Ptg=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3705:: with SMTP id z5mr3599772lfr.92.1633679005251;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 20:43:13 +1300
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c8fbf905cdd28897"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 07:43:33 -0000

--000000000000c8fbf905cdd28897
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

"present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can be done
online, mainly email. So try "available".

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:

> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please reply to
> this one.
> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi Martin,
> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>
> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?
>
> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather we go back
> to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>
> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Document
> approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present, but
> for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is
> filled.
>
> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>
> Eliot
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--000000000000c8fbf905cdd28897
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


"present" implies physical presence. I hope mos=
t of the work can be done online, mainly email. So try "available"=
;.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboar=
d)

On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    
I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please
      reply to this one.

    

    
On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:

    

    

     =20
      
<No hats>

      

      
Hi Martin,

      

      
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson
        wrote:

      

      

        
3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit m=
eans.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded =
delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean som=
ething else?

      

      
This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would =
rather
        we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify
        the text.

      

      

        
Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.=C2=A0
          Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
          are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three
          months or when all vacancies is filled. 

        

      

      
This provides ample time for any reasonable process to
        conclude.

      
Eliot

      

      

      

    

  


-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc=
ed-future




--000000000000c8fbf905cdd28897--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 00:54:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D5E3A1435 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3kB1f4qS8F4 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 00:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082E73A142B for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 00:54:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:2de8:22ec:97d4:13a5] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:2de8:22ec:97d4:13a5]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1987s2B53193518 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:54:02 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633679642; bh=HnkB2g46qkvrWHuC6io9H1ukRNPc/b+xud9eauX2XEQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=F/csUwpugavZzjjSoMr3RGqa2s+eU8Ia+zyecRBA7CYpSyWV8ItVjd5zW4M8AbwxX hvra03P+xuOFv5VGs1pakYjmdcqrfNTa10Fht+/abDXwv6xG8BTQHOrgZw0FJcOwso 08enJFN4B8kMysMYqONPr9GtQj/gnmHD5knZG/ug=
Message-ID: <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:53:59 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------3PcDDcq00q3LOxflWvNzO9Mk"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 07:54:14 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------3PcDDcq00q3LOxflWvNzO9Mk
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------fYfShQRSJYbw9MmDcsS1Cmzr";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Brian Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 
 <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>
 
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
 <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
 <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
 <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------fYfShQRSJYbw9MmDcsS1Cmzr
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------O0Mz0stXe3e8zJLTVb8kXMPM"

--------------O0Mz0stXe3e8zJLTVb8kXMPM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------O0Mz0stXe3e8zJLTVb8kXMPM
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
Good point.

    

    
On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
"present" implies physical presence. I hope most
        of the work can be done online, mainly email. So try
        "available".

        

        
Regards,

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

      

      

      

        
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39
          Eliot Lear, <lear=
@lear.ch>
          wrote:

        

        

          

            
I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but
              please reply to this one.

            

            
On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:

            

            

              
<No hats>

              

              
Hi Martin,

              

              
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:

              

              

                
3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit=
 means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, boun=
ded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it me=
an something else?

              

              
This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I
                would rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I
                would like to simplify the text.

              

              

                
Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting
                  members.=C2=A0 Document approvals SHOULD be delayed whe=
n
                  any voting members are not present, but for no longer
                  than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies
                  is filled. 

                

              

              
This provides ample time for any reasonable process to
                conclude.

              
Eliot

              

              

              

            

          

          -- 

          Rfced-future mailing list

          Rfced-future@iab.org

          http=
s://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

        

      

      

      

    

  

--------------O0Mz0stXe3e8zJLTVb8kXMPM--


--------------fYfShQRSJYbw9MmDcsS1Cmzr--

--------------3PcDDcq00q3LOxflWvNzO9Mk
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFf+RcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOT
oQgA049jH0/LO3aP5Nn/sE5+o56h+Yy2ijvEIbNMSR/h10RUtLMyi3Xvu7hiPY/zZEgurWah2Rbf
WOMSuYqcbnbbBh8e1KGWbnIMLVDLsyjWB84FKNg4OPVdfT3OjZBpXBjEOVnhYX5hWJh2+2cUNS5K
BT3rLAG/XSOACxDChDF2207EqkAryZvto0bNBiBRu1qvVUxY6OYPkJuALOod3AktfneCEvrKLVey
S5Tu+N3SdlRmGO05DZzZpP55+h76N39Ulki1S0mwrgJ93obUPU+CASAgMnrbUvJgbzHKbdidAY9r
PHgLa3cwgvFrQJGc0oA8kOpIrVilmhD94YMGjv9JwQ==
=ReZ1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------3PcDDcq00q3LOxflWvNzO9Mk--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 02:58:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0013A1600 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 02:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efnqhwpZDWVY for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 02:58:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1410095.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.141.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D5FA3A15FE for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 02:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=fricC/0C6Den+7vWlX/i7NvjhYW5HqI9hGJPuAvLW+e0P2+3Mi3fmVAzI0MxYTHi1ZH4OKop+XK0jMKt+j/SIlsQgCcLlKhH9wSyC6swYL8ZxCNBPTVdYIEr42EV3bND0nHSIz8vnfMOQ8b70vlAcM1SAmeLGBErtOufGJoukjpxBsVuVd3Un7X8gvVxf1kcfbaRhNbWkboAZzkDRY+6yYLhuraEDo1I3UtyrJiDFBTwqXgrThjjqnoINlQsG0E71+v+NP+lJFAOD1ZDIk4n/pbl8He1ZMY7OKoa5oKvvVFPP9Lg397lv95KmtRgo8QzWYrTogAOexlqiKF10J797g==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=tyxEXSFJoTSB1MB8/W5egfLCmq7ZkwdmSfvq6GKl4mk=; b=UcSsUG9F4eNugqIZWM25nwtl9HzLBIrhX+avY20a+wGgYCGCLYS5p31xNf/goj2Usl+Hp8ayfPo8bJRsgLb6vj5F28nAWuOZLa6INJkS8fVQ93aQIWtPXIhZlOClhjKCZLXt/TbJaQoQvi7Ckhz/IloEPczYwFj3I6wf2omPPoDfF62G8U7orBgaOWDMSdo5EXT0udE7C2TwrKiEv9dYiC4pG1/S7zbRdlNMA4EmEK/iWKIhY4DWGu0DdYB0mLLKglyi73X0HqpjRDBap5y+nWbA1rJu9QnQl+l7cPk1zjYS+1wlbr4Citp4/kRCK9OZI/JRz6Nl3nDTp/1ozLZoiw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tyxEXSFJoTSB1MB8/W5egfLCmq7ZkwdmSfvq6GKl4mk=; b=OkvNY7ESLVdaruYuY3Ri6kvz4k+pwfj40d0sDdHh3USkSptIBx/QM2lRPKXaloHOg/qzXz0y/HPpKfwtx1796VgNI2ZVvE8f7nRj1/UBf/Cb7rfcdq6GrcE+qDHR0IGZ20zPiYgyBZf+EASgp4VkcVzlYJ94o4KuTB58YchxQLs=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TY2PR01MB3369.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:df::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.19; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:57:56 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4566.022; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:57:56 +0000
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <47DA11F8-41AC-49AC-8B8D-4C6EF45C2D01@mnot.net> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 18:57:55 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0138.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::30) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [133.2.210.39] (133.2.210.39) by TYAPR01CA0138.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.21 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:57:56 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 84407824-c9da-4438-9a96-08d98a421a6a
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TY2PR01MB3369:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(39850400004)(366004)(346002)(136003)(396003)(376002)(6706004)(956004)(6486002)(2906002)(5660300002)(66946007)(38350700002)(53546011)(52116002)(508600001)(36916002)(316002)(16576012)(786003)(8676002)(38100700002)(2616005)(31686004)(8936002)(86362001)(31696002)(66556008)(26005)(66476007)(186003)(3940600001)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?UUd6aEo4eGV5cUVLcmlEZ1NtdnhwcEVDWHFYOUJuNFlDMW5kOTFYWEZ2bUxL?= =?utf-8?B?OE1HM05keVBXU2ppeERQc1RIWVMrMVA3L0hoVXJLZDdVVW9MNGN2emhHdkdK?= =?utf-8?B?NnF1dlM5UWRxdDRYaVZZQzhuTmZydXNIRzlwMkFnTHk3UHJHSEkxbmVTYWZM?= =?utf-8?B?czM4QlBFUi81cG1CQVVYcFg2cmttdzl3M2lKb1lFWnd5aWN5RmdsR1FMK0Rp?= =?utf-8?B?YnhxbmdhVnhQNGl1NGdDc3FvYWlqVVBDVEp5ZTJFb1VqYWtVaXlwbUJodFZ1?= =?utf-8?B?dUY1eEU4cUI2a3E2UXErQzVPNnczaGxsa01ZbG5UajN2aU9leHZpclZQUG1X?= =?utf-8?B?dnJIMUhIQTZYTVlpQlUyT1VjanBLWXlzTjNJdXNDRXk2eGFrK3ZQQ01jcnZt?= =?utf-8?B?SngyeUVMYjBZcHhOWXlraVYyS0NQQTBDZ3NlZHpNQTMva3NUcUxVdTJCU3lR?= =?utf-8?B?L3Zsck93bTNBTUhpajNtVVg3WjkwcTA0YnJTMjNZUFNKRVI2dG1JU2lMNU04?= =?utf-8?B?K2M4OWNqMFNGUklNQmRoelR0SkpBWjUxaWJQam0veVNjOWc0YUxIbFNodC95?= =?utf-8?B?YnVxVENSM2hyV0lsLy9sNlRCL0k5Umdva1dkY2hJdnQwbGFOcS9GaFh2dzNz?= =?utf-8?B?RFppUUNoV2tvRHhvK2IrMEQwQ2ZzYk9GTVpUMjUvWUNrZlNsd1RVKzRXMDQ5?= =?utf-8?B?OHBOeElXbmxoOTZYQzhUMTg2WFdMeVNWb2NFSVdpbnNkbWJyQXVLYngvUWxR?= =?utf-8?B?L2FpcDJlTnJDWEFSeXkrMGJwTFRadVZ0UmFqeDE0Mm5XaWhObGk3UHgyMmUy?= =?utf-8?B?Z1A3eUw0NTFyNTVmUFdsalZiY0laNFp5cWxzRERsQlkrL0o2NXJpOXpvc01D?= =?utf-8?B?WjZMeVBtVSsyYWJVWTZhQXp1a1BuY1htOGxXL0NxUTFzOG1zcnZrOFU4eU9Q?= =?utf-8?B?bzhEdlZ6Kyt5allwSnBMMWFQQUpzQVJLUFpFbzByKzdUQlNHbzQ4cW1MVVBp?= =?utf-8?B?b1R3bERXMWJBa1MydUJSVFBrMnl0NmN3dDhKcmtVMzZ5RlBkK2RQcFJibUhh?= =?utf-8?B?RUxnSjlNN1g2blhOYlJzVnY2dTBDN1hQdnlnU1Zrbzh3Z0Nhc0YvdWlvYk1w?= =?utf-8?B?Z3pNV0lSRGlqdGpKcUxoOHQ3MjdkUTZtRXErenpZSE9yTWMwcEFDVGZSTjVk?= =?utf-8?B?KzNlanVEMndiL1dveVI5cUxtZ1FqYkZGYVIyaTh1SDdJMTdxWWlJZFU0QzVW?= =?utf-8?B?MC9JeFNYd2MwVlJWWWtjamhRT1AvWHphSlRxRUxOMHFjS0ZvalorVFNUVXF6?= =?utf-8?B?OCtYZ05PZWtkTjkyL0FBemhLdTBNTmRGRHRmbGxEVlZVSXo3Wnc0WGJ3amoz?= =?utf-8?B?N2lwekw1M1NDMTgyeTNhT3RsSk5sK2doaTdQUHNBVXpLOXRXeG5XWkJnbE5x?= =?utf-8?B?QmV3aEJHVHdBU2lSQ2ZMYmIrZUo1MHdheVFaUWlueWF5cVVuMEk4MWdrT1Yx?= =?utf-8?B?YmxkNXVkWVJmUU9NNGcyTlZwVTJmdFQwTmxZWnMwak5TSnoxaHhOdFUrelV0?= =?utf-8?B?L2twczF6TWg2U0svL1NDalZFWlpqcTRpYmVIME81VlVwMTJ4Q01xMDZZd1FM?= =?utf-8?B?U3RqbVI4dnU4TDR0VVRSaE0zRVBwWEtTRnQvYXlSVm1EaCtaMm5ScTVHSEpE?= =?utf-8?B?Q0VQQTBnV2JNSnZvSDJ1Z1B4RWVlcjdoV2FESzBPVmhqdTlLb1JyYlJnbEhG?= =?utf-8?Q?iNlAliuy6h6FLkegW8iMgcBB/BWfSvkxsju97Zp?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 84407824-c9da-4438-9a96-08d98a421a6a
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2021 09:57:56.6499 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: Wm4kLTipp5KLYXXYE76pa/B7R/Jo2vqf0YNxF23qE+3zs0pQJy+LgvMaLf3XjJVXy5yozuxEOmnCMEYT5og+qw==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY2PR01MB3369
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 09:58:03 -0000

Sorry, very little time here.

On 2021-10-08 02:14, Brian Rosen wrote:

> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja’s edit
> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja’s edit
> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?

I can live with 1., although I have seen quite a few proposals in the 
followup discussion that improve it.

I cannot live with Mirja's edit. I think the idea behind it is a very 
good one, but in particular the last clause ("expect for time-critical 
documents under exceptional circumstances") is going too far.

Something like:

While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
voting members, but it is expected that that document approvals are done 
under full quorum if this can be achieved without unnecessary delay.

The intent here is that the RSAB　wouln't vote if they know that the ISE 
or the IRTF (temporary) delegate will be appointed soon, but not if the 
IAB tells them that it might take three or more months to find a new ISE 
and they won't appoint a temporary delegate before that, or if somebody 
is "missing in action" and nobody has any idea what is going to happen 
and nobody wants to appoint a temporary replacement.

Please also remember that all the delegates are supposed to participate 
in the discussion in the RSWG, and the WG will usually take some time to 
complete their discussion. So requirements from the streams should 
really come in at that point, and should be well known, and the actual 
approval by the RSAB should in most cases just be a formality.

Regards,   Martin.


From nobody Fri Oct  8 04:47:20 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D423A0FB9 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 04:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=nrqmCJo0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GdHSq0Mn
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3pitTxfPiIM for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C2F23A1672 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6645C0121 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 07:47:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 07:47:11 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=ePqjVRyAhWaPT4lbjB/VGYoYjGeACjC NBxexvs85aUg=; b=nrqmCJo0KgLh2wyaqEaB8imhilhMer2NGc57dTkaSkom2W/ 7aw5ourOLgxni4/GWaTOFmAxmaS8NbkBNKaxJ45Aadwq6KpD62XcVRSJi6W8hJlP kIXw7T33bgpjGr2kJGD3SxN8n4Sc6s2LXWQICGUjA2vOHOkRzskt3B/YEFA8N1ed Oz4EweucPSbbuAplCM8Jas5K6ZUkIA4Y6W+Fbwh06icNqWyKAVJV/G//DmvuPNw0 QPZ0JtKHyYtzJXPFptpzhDidThQOHFEhTvhlTF/cpiIC2O5ZtmOwDmcpbI3OiQPH ydJN+p2P7wwQGw6KRqo9c/t2R4LCEgTNPeyOtrw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ePqjVR yAhWaPT4lbjB/VGYoYjGeACjCNBxexvs85aUg=; b=GdHSq0MnhNqI3wpBJGqV9p HlOgN7pcr00Eol0SX90DoVbW5yX806uaEvFDylajvWmfmkjXR7HuuhxwS3Asccs3 LBcj9Mx0Py3IgJpGVJfDND6re2vaUFrygjJoJG8rmAUdoOfjncmdc+I9ldvWGGTf Fwoxl9r6Jv3Pf/IPLrJXYp06ORMaI2jQDiUaaXxjE7wACjet29pJW1VuquAppnFU YICjtOy8DPom8jsdwQcCUztKByWuPMK9insu0rJUWHQLtvElONFyZr5jSOWQIJh4 KRz3eJjhUxotYIn5eRlVr0ZKBe5n4lidHQgYlN7I8/96+abNGmNAc/GTe5NJ1EwA ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddttddggedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefke evhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeegffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1BA163C0246; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 07:47:11 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1331-g5ae342296a-fm-20211005.001-g5ae34229
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <63138c40-ad4f-4432-9d29-72736cde2c15@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 22:46:51 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 11:47:17 -0000

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, at 17:38, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>> 
>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is filled. 

I might prefer this also.

3 months is more than enough time for the appointing bodies  to find a delegate for *this* position.  That doesn't mean that they need to fill the full role, but find someone just for this function of the role.  3 months is also ample time to find someone for even the most difficult roles, I would hope.  I might have suggested a shorter period, but then the time to approve documents is almost always many times longer than that.

I will note that this means that a stream manager might be absent, with others potentially pushing through an outcome that is adverse for only that stream, but only really if the position can't be filled.

I do like that you have used "SHOULD" here to allow for judgment, without qualification.  That allows flexibility, but encourages that divergence is justified.


From nobody Fri Oct  8 05:01:27 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04F33A16B1 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 05:01:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4fZs3kmyiCql for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 05:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400093.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C330D3A16B3 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 05:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=joSqwctZd08Nr2zW/ZkszNuCe3gqimiQZdD07hBSLzVnhdbiB5kNKb29EAC4yPDm9/Z5ooHwvEKqz0tTD/TKC2Q567mhqemMQA4DR337w1j5S4kWfPA79JqxM32DTPOSaJyDjn9dMaH2VVbI1D9s/KXCnHlRANH7sNJSk0i43pWgwBqsPVYqMYS80gkO+S0dn1eIXKv7HFkh4m24pVkhbAFylwzGB9wMUjSi7sMMjuUgWiByf9+BXZG3aW5K3eMSRUeoC38euznJytZqQOs2Gq09RkRleZswglg6VzwomvSFQMXskeKPRObnrC1B8R1Sv/KgkX/ibXKmjP4osB9AGQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=pWpidiBjteeoaxBcDcqkbG8vgdrvBjPEqunPZPjNaCw=; b=GZlwzeIuBazfrmkSI6+dAriYZx7DRQc1/0vFomYx9ZLikQSQaiKL61PO6RRfFa32CWv2Eqtotc00zXxXpAk48HzE1cBXNHnKHhiRMHLht8XVe7KBIE/doWgP908Am8B+Na/b20n+fbQF0pinYVzxdaE40ETV0nMhyn6cUDUKLA5yekylFUsSikl0q2N8XPHZ8KYooFOKRhgSDJm4eT/cB5UstAQMHUl9n84GqATwhxHCnjVCULsto+QG8RORbVWF8zaGskLafIb2jYUonO9cVndYeYmArVhKEyfsWyeGzJGanQtJGb1SflAbyHt1s1BXIBTYmajNh/2Nf178YS92ag==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=pWpidiBjteeoaxBcDcqkbG8vgdrvBjPEqunPZPjNaCw=; b=D9bzh8g8dMo+baRSAiSd29Afy3c1R2GIZS2mR0Ir0zRsuNcrVvmOkXKE3quEtgL6SlY/Xd9rt6fr+SQsxLn39ohmb37MknO9QX0A3YP5Qn1Ca1eO4gDQXOk6vJwFOWiJX2rUDmJ9vmtU4ju7SXM9hJo2zC1KtwSIyhYinxR3JDw=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYXPR01MB1645.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:403:f::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.20; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:01:19 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4566.022; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:01:19 +0000
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <90d262c2-f977-dbbd-5b30-3bd03ac1f417@it.aoyama.ac.jp>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 21:01:16 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0152.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:7e::20) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.7] (114.180.49.132) by TYAPR01CA0152.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:7e::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.20 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:01:18 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 5ceef0bc-006d-4f7a-16d7-08d98a5356ab
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYXPR01MB1645:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(366004)(39850400004)(136003)(396003)(346002)(376002)(53546011)(38350700002)(38100700002)(52116002)(36916002)(66476007)(26005)(6486002)(316002)(66556008)(66946007)(31686004)(16576012)(31696002)(786003)(8676002)(2906002)(508600001)(956004)(2616005)(66574015)(86362001)(186003)(8936002)(5660300002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?eXZnRDY1RXRYK25HRHN2QklablNiancveWdvbmM1WU9ncm9MMWcwSjd6VXJY?= =?utf-8?B?eExOZDJBMzAweElmZSthRlQ1cFlqbEpvL1htSmtHOVNnODZkNE9VUjZZODFT?= =?utf-8?B?NjRqSzhxVXVnRnV6b29PV1pmckhJSi82QUdvMFZQU25MZ1VMbHAvaEJKNk11?= =?utf-8?B?ZEZIOWc1MUIzUHlUS2JXWmk1L25sM201NkdWdmVodm1Lc2dSZVplODYyaUlT?= =?utf-8?B?SjV5RDYvekdNNUllclpqaXgvcGhPU0MxUGYyM3hQQW1EU2picjBpMU9TNzhV?= =?utf-8?B?cDNYQmk2SFM0anpBOVNoMkRqQ25GNTd6SEJQUlJvTlNHTHlVSHczaXpkNlBh?= =?utf-8?B?Z1dxMlgwQ0hOYy94Z251b0JSZkJwWlJuQ0k4UURsTmhIaHhIMTJrZXlVVCtX?= =?utf-8?B?aDBCNnpZT3JNVGoxSjFpSE5GOWtISGU0NGQrNVZnUmMrU085VGlFY2VWbmVR?= =?utf-8?B?VHU1YzU1ZVBiVVhOMEVGSERSKzVxeHdkVTVvQVZ1MkliRCtYV0x6T0tYbnd1?= =?utf-8?B?QVlncjAwd2hOU254ZmtLUElHYUFyL3NDQitodWFrMDZtdlZVMmdRQXMrTmZs?= =?utf-8?B?c2lNdU45UGFVL1NvNkN1OHB1STVxd3JZM0Zqek9KeG9YS1R0TWFsS3cyaExQ?= =?utf-8?B?bmFDRThldjRQRVVRV01keTM5RW80b0tYZFErdjVGcDd6YkhmMmZPNXZTSDZj?= =?utf-8?B?bGovNzB2cDlpOHNUSElDcnlveWNEVThWZ3VldzM4d2pSOXErUXFTR1orMUto?= =?utf-8?B?TjdOSW1JRjZVa2JRNm9aZGJjSHhHbXB3S3M3Z0JJNXhUKytEVXlsbW1yemVl?= =?utf-8?B?MUkzcWZQWnVRZENNK3p4cnNEK2w5OVFvRWZiNFY5NEFHY0Y0bjFaaHdoUTJD?= =?utf-8?B?N2wzdHBGNTBxSEY0U3FOVU5CYXZXOFNPam43eTZxWnE0enVuSXQ3UjFCaUxQ?= =?utf-8?B?Ky8yNnpaK0V5eTdjWU0zcTdDVVBZYmdvNXgrdGU2MERxS0trQVNrcjNDMVVz?= =?utf-8?B?R2JYbTVJN3RwTG1tRnBFakV0TXlPWWpMTVZQaDVXVUY2UjFCNnhEM29tNHRo?= =?utf-8?B?cUZXS09xTklQMG5Qemk2OU9pZExSQ25KRnNYTWRJMmVFLzhUV1dPdkxtY1pZ?= =?utf-8?B?V2JGcVdONDdhVG1pSVpxVEVwQi93b1pURmtSY0JuZjhsam5TUmNHb0UvYVFv?= =?utf-8?B?NlY4alpicUFxQ0hYall2RHE4QjloYjBpYXZUNUJsMHo5Mkw4aVlOU0JHcXlN?= =?utf-8?B?cTVLc1lQaTc3U3pjVnZ0dndTdFhML1JFSTNtS08yNWljcmtvSEJTd0N2b0Jx?= =?utf-8?B?NVE1dlROb2piYklFcmxocnRmT1paaE1naG1DUHdzL3BCSGg2VUkyZkR6b2N6?= =?utf-8?B?TzBQTDJIQlhjWkE2RzA5UVRHYVB6VWwxT2tlSWpreU1reGVieU5KS3pzU215?= =?utf-8?B?cGN6Y0EvZUdNWHU0SXBNY3dmaDkrV2pzUkVtSFg4bzlBRGFTSm41cHpOeUs5?= =?utf-8?B?bTNWY1MwYkt5K0hsUGk2UE5sTnE3WTMvZitQR2ZMVkNpdVpBK3BWcTg3YUpk?= =?utf-8?B?TEdnMWc0MWE0ZCtBV0d1QVFUNGYrdlNFaDdSdkRwdFdQang5QnRjTEFSTGUw?= =?utf-8?B?MXc4NzByOFVhdytMNjQyVTNGWUdjbWY4cjZvOE91djczVlM4b2hxb2g3d0l1?= =?utf-8?B?ekdYbEJWRUFQay9vcHFBUEpza1hxcEVRejdMMmRYMXQ3VVh6ZFBxM3VwZUJX?= =?utf-8?Q?Ouxf5knC7fn6YtUHbEcWrhvTbT/5ETePw1pbP6K?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5ceef0bc-006d-4f7a-16d7-08d98a5356ab
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2021 12:01:19.1772 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: cgBR5h+WqJ/8ds2SLfKBiyo8UAPU1oVq0N+YtJy+N8BwWOyBkmFOpyGJjU5hn/uI5vWfVZnxwVJqsFu5nKBeBA==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYXPR01MB1645
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 12:01:26 -0000

Sorry, typos in important places:

On 2021-10-08 18:57, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
> Sorry, very little time here.
> 
> On 2021-10-08 02:14, Brian Rosen wrote:
> 
>> Could we please see where we are on this by an informal poll:
>> 1. Can you live with the proposed text without Mirja’s edit
>> 2. Can you live with the proposed text with Mirja’s edit
>> 3. If you can live with both, which do you prefer?
> 
> I can live with 1., although I have seen quite a few proposals in the 
> followup discussion that improve it.
> 
> I cannot live with Mirja's edit. I think the idea behind it is a very 
> good one, but in particular the last clause ("expect for time-critical 

expect -> except

> documents under exceptional circumstances") is going too far.
> 
> Something like:
> 
> While the RSAB is considered quorate even if it lacks one or more of its
> voting members, but it is expected that that document approvals are done 

but it is -> it is

> under full quorum if this can be achieved without unnecessary delay.
> 
> The intent here is that the RSAB　wouln't vote if they know that the ISE 
> or the IRTF (temporary) delegate will be appointed soon, but not if the 
> IAB tells them that it might take three or more months to find a new ISE 
> and they won't appoint a temporary delegate before that, or if somebody 
> is "missing in action" and nobody has any idea what is going to happen 
> and nobody wants to appoint a temporary replacement.
> 
> Please also remember that all the delegates are supposed to participate 
> in the discussion in the RSWG, and the WG will usually take some time to 
> complete their discussion. So requirements from the streams should 
> really come in at that point, and should be well known, and the actual 
> approval by the RSAB should in most cases just be a formality.
> 
> Regards,   Martin.
> 


From nobody Fri Oct  8 06:07:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542AA3A11CD for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 06:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CCA6iuQwi-T for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 06:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C6DE3A172F for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 06:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p5dec2b49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([93.236.43.73] helo=emb-w4epjhc9.fritz.box); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mYpbC-0000n9-Gr; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 15:07:42 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <63138c40-ad4f-4432-9d29-72736cde2c15@www.fastmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 15:07:41 +0200
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <8634ee84-3dcf-8b53-1446-a4251f5bf5f8@gmail.com>  <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch> <63138c40-ad4f-4432-9d29-72736cde2c15@www.fastmail.com>
To: Martin Thomson 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1633698466;c5dfa285;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mYpbC-0000n9-Gr
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:07:52 -0000

The intention of my text was to document that the expectation is that =
usually all approvals are done with full quorum, but not making it a =
hard requirement and leave it to the RSAB to decide if something is =
critical or how long they would be will to wait. I proposed this under =
the assumption that most people on the RSAB will be reasonable and =
therefore there is no need to over specify here.

I could live with the text below but really think that naming any =
specific time frame is overdoing it.

=20

> On 8. Oct 2021, at 13:46, Martin Thomson  wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, at 17:38, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather we =
go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>>>=20
>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  =
Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not =
present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all =
vacancies is filled.=20
>=20
> I might prefer this also.
>=20
> 3 months is more than enough time for the appointing bodies  to find a =
delegate for *this* position.  That doesn't mean that they need to fill =
the full role, but find someone just for this function of the role.  3 =
months is also ample time to find someone for even the most difficult =
roles, I would hope.  I might have suggested a shorter period, but then =
the time to approve documents is almost always many times longer than =
that.
>=20
> I will note that this means that a stream manager might be absent, =
with others potentially pushing through an outcome that is adverse for =
only that stream, but only really if the position can't be filled.
>=20
> I do like that you have used "SHOULD" here to allow for judgment, =
without qualification.  That allows flexibility, but encourages that =
divergence is justified.
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct  8 07:58:20 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCC03A0901 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 07:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6XJc1jqJX4xU for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 07:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1D93A08FE for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 07:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47566300C52 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:58:13 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id RBDSImjsbk6A for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEFCF300B9E; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Russ Housley 
Message-Id: <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A34067DF-099C-4C78-8804-28C68C7D67B6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:58:07 -0400
In-Reply-To: <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
To: Eliot Lear , Brian Carpenter 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 14:58:19 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_A34067DF-099C-4C78-8804-28C68C7D67B6
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E935BDC-EE92-4A97-BAD1-17E9B318AB01"


--Apple-Mail=_9E935BDC-EE92-4A97-BAD1-17E9B318AB01
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face).  =
How about "voting members in attendance"?

Russ

> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> Signed PGP part
> Good point.
>=20
> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can be =
done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>     Brian Carpenter
>>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>=20
>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear, > wrote:
>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please reply =
to this one.
>>=20
>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> 
>>>=20
>>> Hi Martin,
>>>=20
>>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does =
it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in =
order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something =
else?
>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather we =
go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>>>=20
>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Document =
approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present, but =
for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is =
filled.
>>>=20
>>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>=20
>>> Eliot
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org 
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =

>>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_9E935BDC-EE92-4A97-BAD1-17E9B318AB01
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face).  How about "voting members in attendance"?

Russ

On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

Signed PGP part

  
    
  
  
Good point.

    

    
On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
"present" implies physical presence. I hope most
        of the work can be done online, mainly email. So try
        "available".

        

        
Regards,

              Brian Carpenter

              (via tiny screen & keyboard)

      

      

      

        
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39
          Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch>
          wrote:

        

        

          
I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but
              please reply to this one.

            

            
On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:

            

            
<No hats>

              
Hi Martin,

              

              
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:

              

              

                
3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?

              
This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I
                would rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I
                would like to simplify the text.

              

              
Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting
                  members.  Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when
                  any voting members are not present, but for no longer
                  than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies
                  is filled. 

                

              
This provides ample time for any reasonable process to
                conclude.
Eliot

              

              

              

            

          

          -- 

          Rfced-future mailing list

          Rfced-future@iab.org

          https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

        

      

      

      

    

  





--Apple-Mail=_9E935BDC-EE92-4A97-BAD1-17E9B318AB01--

--Apple-Mail=_A34067DF-099C-4C78-8804-28C68C7D67B6
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
	name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
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=J7q5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Apple-Mail=_A34067DF-099C-4C78-8804-28C68C7D67B6--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 08:31:25 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55933A03F3 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.89
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nbfex56wEE1X for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDDF23A03EA for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 08:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::7] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:7]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 198FVDHY3416806 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:31:13 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633707073; bh=KxEDBGJwbHLqvjjdUB/yo2BeBru4uYWi8jS6Rhb141s=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=FbsEkZubma60+1nIBqCeAqIb2JgbAjAo5Sgt7LzitKQYiLk7kbOnW2z8iZhj0Vrvv qKUTeUs69I6TMSA5fzfL9PqVWXIluX0elvJgLr+zOplhihBHiOJE2XH5gTGv1+a1g7 7i3zcg1pP9JbYGpgoUEn20uA8u5lPJtqcRfcwz7I=
To: Russ Housley , Brian Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:31:11 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KPnGYJHYdcDYsVl78FrrUzkIpXigH0Z3W"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 15:31:23 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--KPnGYJHYdcDYsVl78FrrUzkIpXigH0Z3W
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="v2okGVpyNMw2KR2uuviC3EvoyI9F1g8D4";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Russ Housley ,
 Brian Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>
 
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
 <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
 <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
 <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
 
 <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
 <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
In-Reply-To: <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>

--v2okGVpyNMw2KR2uuviC3EvoyI9F1g8D4
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------1C4F2A4E602379075BE73791"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------1C4F2A4E602379075BE73791
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Even better.


On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:
> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face).=20
> =C2=A0How about "voting members in attendance"?
>
> Russ
>
>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear > > wrote:
>>
>> Signed PGP part
>>
>> Good point.
>>
>> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can be=20
>>> done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>
>>>     I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please
>>>     reply to this one.
>>>
>>>     On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>     Hi Martin,
>>>>
>>>>     On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>     3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Do=
es it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays =
in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean somethin=
g else?
>>>>
>>>>     This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would ra=
ther
>>>>     we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to
>>>>     simplify the text.
>>>>
>>>>         Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.
>>>>         Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting
>>>>         members are not present, but for no longer than the earlier
>>>>         of three months or when all vacancies is filled.
>>>>
>>>>     This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.=

>>>>
>>>>     Eliot
>>>>
>>>>
>>>     --=20
>>>     Rfced-future mailing list
>>>     Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>     https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

--------------1C4F2A4E602379075BE73791
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
Even better.

    


    

    
On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:=


    

    

      
      Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of
      face-to-face). =C2=A0How about "voting members in attendance"?
      


      

      
Russ

        


          

            
On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
            

            

              

                
Signed PGP part

                

                  
                  

                    
Good point.

                    

                    
On 08.10.21 09:43,
                      Brian Carpenter wrote:

                    

                    

                      
                      
"present" implies
                        physical presence. I hope most of the work can
                        be done online, mainly email. So try
                        "available".

                        

                        
Regards,

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keybo=
ard)

                      

                      

                      

                        
On Fri, 8 O=
ct
                          2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch<=
/a>>
                          wrote:

                        

                        

                          

                            
I don't know how rfced-future
                              ended up in the Bcc, but please reply to
                              this one.

                            

                            
On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear=

                              wrote:

                            

                            

                              
<No hats>

                              

                              
Hi Martin,

                              

                              
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin
                                Thomson wrote:

                              

                              

                                
3.  Though I don't concre=
tely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be p=
ermitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to =
participate?  Or does it mean something else?

                              

                              
This is the issue; I don't se=
e
                                it meaning that.=C2=A0 I would rather we =
go
                                back to small bounded delays. And I
                                would like to simplify the text.

                              

                              

                                
Quorum of the RSAB shall
                                  consist of 4/5 of voting members.=C2=A0=

                                  Document approvals SHOULD be delayed
                                  when any voting members are not
                                  present, but for no longer than the
                                  earlier of three months or when all
                                  vacancies is filled. 

                                

                              

                              
This provides ample time for
                                any reasonable process to conclude.

                              
Eliot

                              

                              

                              

                            

                          

                          -- 

                          Rfced-future mailing list

                          Rfced-future@=
iab.org

                          https://www.i=
ab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

                        

                      

                      

                      

                    

                  

                

              

              

              

          

        

        

      

      

      

    

  

-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

=

--Apple-Mail=_60A26AA6-6796-4CF1-8B11-83E26F8F8F34--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 09:07:12 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766FD3A0598 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 09:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFdMOxKSDt4l for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 09:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E3513A0553 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 09:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p5dec2b49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([93.236.43.73] helo=[192.168.178.42]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mYsOi-0005qa-MJ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 18:07:00 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 18:06:59 +0200
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <77675556-DE95-4610-BFBC-A979B433F587@kuehlewind.net>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
To: Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1633709225;ac9f3c73;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mYsOi-0005qa-MJ
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 16:07:11 -0000

Sorry for bringing up another issue with this text:

In the document we often talk about the stream managers but this text =
takes about delegates. There seems to be some inconsistency here. I =
actually thought that the RSAB simply consists of all stream managers =
(where I guess the RSCB is the stream manager for the new editorial =
stream?). So far, stream managers have been selected by each stream =
based on their own process. Do we even need to document this here?

Mirja



> On 8. Oct 2021, at 17:41, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> Do I have this right?
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in =
attendence. =20
> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members=20
> are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or=20=

> when all vacancies is filled.=20
>=20
> Who cannot live with this text?
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>> Even better.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:
>>> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of =
face-to-face).  How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>>=20
>>> Russ
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>> Good point.
>>>>=20
>>>> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can =
be done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>     Brian Carpenter
>>>>>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please =
reply to this one.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi Martin,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  =
Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded =
delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean =
something else?
>>>>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather =
we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the =
text.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  =
Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not =
present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all =
vacancies is filled.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct  8 10:10:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641263A096E for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bXXavDRYLEFK for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10A93A0970 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::7] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:7]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 198HAUdF3465423 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:10:30 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633713031; bh=a+RDlUV/Vpuqe30puxyFzSsFACre5AQuzw+0ubssM9s=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=BpP2vaxbOvxALrl/MeTmFoq1Zt+yF07o4oVOEH7+Y2J+Kxc9VZvTGAI5qBA5yboT1 6aD1PQZQ+LwdDZnUnT2DyzWvX47g5+nb3zON8jcgQABL3dQRlfHClDMVOA+pQryHeg jJgqzNPCSmwPL8glPeB9yaJ4w7mUhi5GAxKxorF0=
To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> <77675556-DE95-4610-BFBC-A979B433F587@kuehlewind.net>
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:10:28 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <77675556-DE95-4610-BFBC-A979B433F587@kuehlewind.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u8ISOzBPZAMSkzWgN3PpbXJomV05aL9m0"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:10:44 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--u8ISOzBPZAMSkzWgN3PpbXJomV05aL9m0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VoqNdAWt79yJnjZmLPKbyyhvoQfG31RDx";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com>
 <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>
 
 
 <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
 <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
 <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
 <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
 
 <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
 <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
 
 <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
 <77675556-DE95-4610-BFBC-A979B433F587@kuehlewind.net>
In-Reply-To: <77675556-DE95-4610-BFBC-A979B433F587@kuehlewind.net>

--VoqNdAWt79yJnjZmLPKbyyhvoQfG31RDx
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en-US

Hi Mirja,

The idea is that the IESG and IAB will send who they choose so as not to =

further burden the chairs.=C2=A0 Those are the delegates to which the tex=
t=20
refers.=C2=A0 The same can be said of the IRTF if it so chooses, as well =
as=20
the ISE.=C2=A0 However, we leave it to each stream to decide this.

Eliot

On 08.10.21 18:06, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Sorry for bringing up another issue with this text:
>
> In the document we often talk about the stream managers but this text t=
akes about delegates. There seems to be some inconsistency here. I actual=
ly thought that the RSAB simply consists of all stream managers (where I =
guess the RSCB is the stream manager for the new editorial stream?). So f=
ar, stream managers have been selected by each stream based on their own =
process. Do we even need to document this here?
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
>> On 8. Oct 2021, at 17:41, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>
>> Do I have this right?
>>
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>
>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in attendenc=
e.
>> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>> are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or=

>> when all vacancies is filled.
>>
>> Who cannot live with this text?
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>
>>> Even better.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:
>>>> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face)=
=2E  How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>>>
>>>> Russ
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>>> Good point.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can b=
e done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>      Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>      (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>>>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please repl=
y to this one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Martin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Doe=
s it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays i=
n order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something=
 else?
>>>>>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather w=
e go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.=

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Docum=
ent approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present, =
but for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies =
is filled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


--VoqNdAWt79yJnjZmLPKbyyhvoQfG31RDx--

--u8ISOzBPZAMSkzWgN3PpbXJomV05aL9m0
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFge4QFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMR
5AgApxPhbSGbT+AKtvVJANg3YKCe5ULbUsjzVscNSM9p7nNt/aC04wJYq2Mcflu7QwR3aaGR3Hu/
mpIOT96/9nlbN/gQoZvB6gwdsK5p6Oo0yQPTibQlKHCk4IRlnifeQdzKsHaEn4ncGGkKSX98IP40
UUPgyVcRLeuVTOBDCkxVBUnt9meYeQWO2GNJEM74f8hyaUASijlQctz8idzo9FntyZhccYqGGy16
Lo/EeRJ9tkzwpaqxJPkbeSKz+xNS2QkI8ydl4W+C4uRsNtP3ImaKeWipvWQSkW0fXajAo1CTsRox
1Gv+55Q4b0CqMJtay9665KGTn+4tZnnBOrmysAtkPQ==
=0MGt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--u8ISOzBPZAMSkzWgN3PpbXJomV05aL9m0--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 10:16:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284F83A09CE for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:16:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GJGLKh748FXV for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A604F3A09C6 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [2a00:20:9004:f31b:c889:1431:f81d:5335] (helo=smtpclient.apple);  authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1mYtU8-0005uH-2G; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 19:16:40 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: =?utf-8?Q?"Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_=28IETF=29"?= 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:16:38 +0200
Message-Id: 
References: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
Cc: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
In-Reply-To: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18G82)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1633713404;8163809b;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mYtU8-0005uH-2G
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:16:50 -0000

Yes, the steam manager doesn=E2=80=99t habe to the chair. For the IAB that=E2=
=80=99s currently the case but it a separate role and last term these positi=
ons were held by different people.=20

> Am 08.10.2021 um 19:10 schrieb Eliot Lear :
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFHi Mirja,
>=20
> The idea is that the IESG and IAB will send who they choose so as not to f=
urther burden the chairs.  Those are the delegates to which the text refers.=
  The same can be said of the IRTF if it so chooses, as well as the ISE.  Ho=
wever, we leave it to each stream to decide this.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>> On 08.10.21 18:06, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Sorry for bringing up another issue with this text:
>>=20
>> In the document we often talk about the stream managers but this text tak=
es about delegates. There seems to be some inconsistency here. I actually th=
ought that the RSAB simply consists of all stream managers (where I guess th=
e RSCB is the stream manager for the new editorial stream?). So far, stream m=
anagers have been selected by each stream based on their own process. Do we e=
ven need to document this here?
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> On 8. Oct 2021, at 17:41, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Do I have this right?
>>>=20
>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>=20
>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in attendence.=

>>> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>> are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or
>>> when all vacancies is filled.
>>>=20
>>> Who cannot live with this text?
>>>=20
>>> Brian
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Even better.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:
>>>>> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face). =
 How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Russ
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>>>> Good point.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can be d=
one online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>     Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please reply t=
o this one.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Hi Martin,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does i=
t mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in orde=
r to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?
>>>>>>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather we g=
o back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Documen=
t approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present, but f=
or no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is fille=
d.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct  8 10:36:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8773A0AF9 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4syBYKRyOljP for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:36:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AC513A0AE8 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:36:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::7] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:7]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 198HaTUF3477747 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:36:29 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633714589; bh=iVkU7G3bqEsO7fafIZ7fLvZWFvMiw2w9wFSoyfFNGwA=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=IiBxwqRrfgBZzxe0TdVPV2jJQc96mJJvxZnvjV4p1sjx1834+STe6V8j7X9z4r0Ob yOZH8DNIDEr+60DtCp2ogC8fcUIDUqyfTErn0OZ+K96C0YLP2C2i1RIF+LTUHJ3/Lq vSTR0CT+sUmtS+WbZDqopGetGTpydYl6kMyXKK74=
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind_=28IETF=29?= 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen 
References: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch> 
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <598eaf11-a482-969d-891a-06a5560b68fa@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:36:28 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KAeJT2hUlelFD2tW6KgLQBcMFTVnMFZhk"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:36:41 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--KAeJT2hUlelFD2tW6KgLQBcMFTVnMFZhk
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="KikFc4PFpAPqkgfpcBSEREcNoEdGSL1j0";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind_=28IETF=29?= 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <598eaf11-a482-969d-891a-06a5560b68fa@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--KikFc4PFpAPqkgfpcBSEREcNoEdGSL1j0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en-US

Ah.=C2=A0 I see what you are saying.=C2=A0 I think what we are talking ab=
out below=20
are RSAB "members".=C2=A0 That might be the right solve.

On 08.10.21 19:16, "Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (IETF)" wrote:
> Yes, the steam manager doesn=E2=80=99t habe to the chair. For the IAB t=
hat=E2=80=99s currently the case but it a separate role and last term the=
se positions were held by different people.
>
>> Am 08.10.2021 um 19:10 schrieb Eliot Lear :
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFHi Mirja,
>>
>> The idea is that the IESG and IAB will send who they choose so as not =
to further burden the chairs.  Those are the delegates to which the text =
refers.  The same can be said of the IRTF if it so chooses, as well as th=
e ISE.  However, we leave it to each stream to decide this.
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>>> On 08.10.21 18:06, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> Sorry for bringing up another issue with this text:
>>>
>>> In the document we often talk about the stream managers but this text=
 takes about delegates. There seems to be some inconsistency here. I actu=
ally thought that the RSAB simply consists of all stream managers (where =
I guess the RSCB is the stream manager for the new editorial stream?). So=
 far, stream managers have been selected by each stream based on their ow=
n process. Do we even need to document this here?
>>>
>>> Mirja
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> On 8. Oct 2021, at 17:41, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>>> Do I have this right?
>>>>
>>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>>
>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in attende=
nce.
>>>> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>>> are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months =
or
>>>> when all vacancies is filled.
>>>>
>>>> Who cannot live with this text?
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Even better.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:
>>>>>> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-fac=
e).  How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russ
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>>>>> Good point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can=
 be done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>      Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>>      (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>>>>>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please re=
ply to this one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Martin,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  D=
oes it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays=
 in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean somethi=
ng else?
>>>>>>>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather=
 we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the tex=
t.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Doc=
ument approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present=
, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancie=
s is filled.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude=
=2E
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


--KikFc4PFpAPqkgfpcBSEREcNoEdGSL1j0--

--KAeJT2hUlelFD2tW6KgLQBcMFTVnMFZhk
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFggZwFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPV
PwgApbjurwqHVqz6hNT6oJurxAQV8jahupTIuACNRxkNC/WBvN6eVPttqsNS49YEj2TI92KXdGNP
E1D2FrAc04WlhtYHqgJLyctSGsHIwUx5BTX8cEXWAmyRdgEo6jXtNeP0z4N6S+RtCZqcbJO7XJUg
PZICx1IJmfX2R7VQpzIaOw4lOrgEoPEusbCFH3Tq4uE4aii8L3J0VrbW+6QIgPTNFE1yX3i7ELWA
mt9e5BX3vZrTsLMlu7FgIJmdULpjLEE1wI0YBXnBNWePU4V4ZHIIky4fJfX8rLF6yQ6JA0aoSdbI
NtOZUa9Hm0Fu/CScNaUejYsEUebESAFmULixeRNtmA==
=M3FR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--KAeJT2hUlelFD2tW6KgLQBcMFTVnMFZhk--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 10:57:48 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84B63A0BDA for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=HB7kTasO; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=jpEdg0To
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DDASS-Cm_JFE for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71D023A0BD4 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5733200A2E; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:57:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:57:39 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=Z xUrHycl7PTmCureMzuyLfVcvjobADvaFhgZcOrFzQ8=; b=HB7kTasOK8ZdDzDLL 8U68U47ucItmibMnPU9goX2Sb5N0vKBJkEQifngX8iUPk9cCWFln5C/lgHOLrWGi qxDM5dKHOk1sult2a/g3TEhRfAEMM/Yh9j9fH5PFuaudKhpjG9EzxzEnTUjQk9ie 9sS2ae4+qaaGf7yM/SQZxyXA7AKEBxoJziZrafViQ/8jlPmaGyMdtBi4sn/K75KX lJbT6s7aLkktYL/6wmHtZ7o5qZaq9rQeidxS82SUJ9oF7gEAtR0HEoWHJK73/y7O fh+GJwJaqHKogBbH2vnoOPup8QeywMtrdlZgNW3jfXN7CVngs+Ffvp6Q2m3miwR+ V4+rw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ZxUrHycl7PTmCureMzuyLfVcvjobADvaFhgZcOrFz Q8=; b=jpEdg0ToqsBeqwDA28DO5iCMMw0qhBhhhT23CU+yw+rYN9AOAnMUwuoxq G9HgNWfI+p7kp9Muu5xhpuWcQGWCM/5YaQf/PWawlL89yuT5ElRlqiJVXF0NE/Kl SO3ePCBA/OmAzjL31nkOf+VIw5QPZb0RWNYUC/HMCR2BSI9R9ap7zj8Kly6G/DKg KoLS/HQf0pG9VPLF4Up6Qj+H5UwF+GxwbdUAxafMxHRP92lns7xs0Jiyymoptfhn dsTy5JIZqnnt3fPT0DJhhiMFHZvGySB2FtY4K/GpVIw7cESHwhbrIz0BPVuns1pU rtLkB+Kz+dARnwPnVUzjcvtLdBxww==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddttddgudduiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfelkeevveelgf ehjeeuhfehuefhkeeftdffgfeghfegtedvgeeigfdvkeeltdfgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:57:37 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:57:33 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:57:46 -0000

On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> Do I have this right?
> 
>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> 
>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
>     attendence.
>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or
>     when all vacancies is filled. 
> 
> 
> Who cannot live with this text?

I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this 
quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented in 
the "Workflow" section:

    1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
        Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

    2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
        substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
        positions, an additional call for community input might be
        needed.

    3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
        remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
        RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
        Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a tie, the
        proposal is approved.

Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of 
CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a 
formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN 
positions remain. The proposal is approved.

Is this what we want?

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct  8 12:57:35 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E46C3A12BE for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 12:57:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IYW2G1H5EEmW for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 12:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 047823A12B9 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 12:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id p68so11968859iof.6 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 12:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KoHi5CunihIdrnTOJwzObvSolxFuR73iFqI2onXkofU=; b=XUofcis1qV2LevDeQ1qJ50UoDkRnUCRk+irckkV1cs//xxY6Tk0V87rGv55R+55z+P 8V7Cnp1xQOfVJhWL4KcRC8CXWA2fTfJvjX4mLMg30LmcpYWkchLi45YKbxhvXPEiAi8E AO78PbjaFkAHKjm60Yea/aYOhE2OYQLj73iz0=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KoHi5CunihIdrnTOJwzObvSolxFuR73iFqI2onXkofU=; b=7ShkvTZtYhc00DilMez8OW5ZoHTr1KOgw7LX8L9Lty+WayLiJellRQHRHlpaaL9P/l 0WDv9nxniqf4BRC+Sj9SiWdZ7BC3dEzSU/oWoUZRnmsS9TKPv8sMK1qvq8pWTkBQhOXb HoxFN5T+f2SpC2AFjoYA/GqWX0NXC5Y4sto8COZ/eGo7pXdqVxGZvjCCFt36egIkXhCk 5rZ+LE1oeJrI4bAUfslXUoJ3ykNLBi8FnY/MYQ7V1BFqXfVIMHGJQUovCxy3gEYtADRz ZUarzDmzmLPdemVrTm7Y4Sq1sxL+yJUBySbNqYboGwUpeDG1B8eVOt463I4vi1Uxbbqr ZpYA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZB57i89lyU1HhplnZRvardHm9gDIgDU2UEZ0MXH5QYQRmNJdz 0Y3W0CRwHw/WhHnmbBYHf5+T96NBZANAGQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtjz7euQTykoFLK8NMOO5NqrnTiJHcXi8b7R75DoOy6PQycbGcMDl/3hMdhTuy+0QLXiC2+A==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:41a2:: with SMTP id az34mr9049522jab.4.1633723046552;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 12:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-78-113-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.78.113.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d6sm103795ile.51.2021.10.08.12.57.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 12:57:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:57:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 19:57:33 -0000

On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>> Do I have this right?
>>
>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>
>>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
>>     attendence.
>>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three 
>> months or
>>     when all vacancies is filled.
>>
>> Who cannot live with this text?
> 
> I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this 
> quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented in 
> the "Workflow" section:
> 
>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> 
>     2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
>         substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>         positions, an additional call for community input might be
>         needed.
> 
>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>         remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
>         RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
>         Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a tie, the
>         proposal is approved.
> 
> Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of 
> CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a 
> formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN 
> positions remain. The proposal is approved.
> 
> Is this what we want?

Here's an alternative model:

###

    1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
        Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

    2.  A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no CONCERN
        positions is approved.  If substantial changes have been made
        in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional call for
        community input might be needed.

    3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
        remain from one of the streams, the proposal is returned to
        the RSWG.

###

Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is 
that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC 
Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with 
such policies.

Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could be 
overridden.

Thoughts?

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct  8 13:02:24 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F68A3A12EC for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0qMR5nP3Itt9 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3529E3A12ED for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id 134so11935981iou.12 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3Tt+VCOFIw48/E1cuGbj6r2Nuztq5aFbooXvebFLLDg=; b=wuq99Ij/ayflmBDgtsndf1tCVe8QgrBXyAIuhibNiMvYV1BjPpyB5Qz+0sXWWBpUnI NRpKC1LDvl+/vD8suI27SBJ6lVoa4qzRsY33GAcTgYqzr6KhHwKtaDInVoqF8H/RszS2 E1XKixSFARq6mcgUwwtXqk/p1Org27Ss2Geb10MVqrXTRHSyh9UJ3XvRJP0q4CeAPeYC mcLc6ma1Ju8Wp6FSVMGiCh7MxWm8UPjXfG9OMz3L69hlKOMGB5unwAoEONDu2mRNv8Ro raV6fOYcnWl+t6T9fvsSgVwlMkCdJSqq0fm33RSYeUnveS34Dz2nrV0hfmPP/fGgUyqk Jc6Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3Tt+VCOFIw48/E1cuGbj6r2Nuztq5aFbooXvebFLLDg=; b=DQJ65o1NIIAgSU/hz5fxyZq+4/56VtTutGrn0EipA1g2Np5H/XQniMmrgC+FdU49Ed FOQlUqVjX0CMm+2Dk5E+fAbemgJXD1MOk6fkfvS4Ftbp2JTnfWiIx/sAUWwZsUV2MR5Q I66Jfib/y6p7ny+ZkjpaZ7rbEBB2GMIzpC9iB3m5jvwkQlQBcdI8Ro8XOs063CaAlsYG yk9nTNEdGqF0aj7XGYO/r6ZA/zRfey39aIS80xGNVJ6rkBt8IQpWfhsbCQlj1hcYo7qs 4YorO99qkjjiM9kXTvdEkmy2gQyEYwYzCEGKJUddvbcs6hQ2cM07Sp0kAsa4jeecZI7m a5rw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307jdd9ca8gy4HKfL8tUi9r6kSUfBqUYwO45Nvo48pvAYjr/RMU AM5LC3HzFRnd1U+OaMWEu0G0Yex2xiUs/KkyTdP58zIesQg=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhbKPZIpa/a/WoB2NQjFPrS41L2gez9h8FooZaSFA0I3JWd2wNj1bFrlzozZZCynt2CTvyocZVa8WEI6tYxgU=
X-Received: by 2002:a02:6f5d:: with SMTP id b29mr9209499jae.113.1633723336193;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:02:16 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:01:40 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001d907405cddcdb98"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:02:22 -0000

--0000000000001d907405cddcdb98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM Peter Saint-Andre 
wrote:

> On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> >> Do I have this right?
> >>
> >>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> >>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> >>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> >>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> >>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> >>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> >>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> >>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> >>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> >>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> >>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> >>
> >>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
> >>     attendence.
> >>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
> >>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three
> >> months or
> >>     when all vacancies is filled.
> >>
> >> Who cannot live with this text?
> >
> > I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this
> > quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented in
> > the "Workflow" section:
> >
> >     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
> >         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> >
> >     2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
> >         substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
> >         positions, an additional call for community input might be
> >         needed.
> >
> >     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
> >         remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
> >         RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
> >         Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a tie, the
> >         proposal is approved.
> >
> > Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of
> > CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a
> > formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN
> > positions remain. The proposal is approved.
> >
> > Is this what we want?
>
> Here's an alternative model:
>
> ###
>
>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>
>     2.  A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no CONCERN
>         positions is approved.  If substantial changes have been made
>         in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional call for
>         community input might be needed.
>
>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>         remain from one of the streams, the proposal is returned to
>         the RSWG.
>
> ###
>
> Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is
> that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC
> Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with
> such policies.
>
> Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could be
> overridden.
>

I don't think we should change things. Unanimity amongst the streams is a
bad
requirement.

-Ekr


Thoughts?
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--0000000000001d907405cddcdb98
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM Peter=
 Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com=
> wrote:
=
On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:

>> Do I have this right?

>>

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The appointing bodies shall determine their own=
 processes for

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 appointing delegates, such as provision for an =
open nominations

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 period. If it becomes necessary to replace such=
 a delegate for

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any reason, then for the sake of continuity the=
 appointing body

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should name a new delegate to complete the form=
er delegate's term.

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Appointing bodies should ensure that voting mem=
bers are seated at

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 all times and should fill any vacancies with al=
l due speed, if

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary on a temporary basis. In the case tha=
t the IRTF chair or

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to app=
oint a delegate,

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as th=
e appointing body

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

>>

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voti=
ng members in

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 attendence.

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any v=
oting members

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 are not present, but for no longer than the ear=
lier of three 

>> months or

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when all vacancies is filled.

>>

>> Who cannot live with this text?

> 

> I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how =
this 

> quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented =
in 

> the "Workflow" section:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take =
place within the RSWG.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members are=
 expected to participate.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 A proposal without any CONCERN positions i=
s approved.=C2=A0 If

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 substantial changes have be=
en made in order to address CONCERN

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions, an additional ca=
ll for community input might be

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 needed.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 If, after a suitable period of time, any C=
ONCERN positions

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 remain, a formal vote of th=
e RSAB is taken.=C2=A0 If a majority of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RSAB members vote to approv=
e, the proposal is approved.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Otherwise, it is returned t=
o the RSWG.=C2=A0 In the case of a tie, the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 proposal is approved.

> 

> Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions =
of 

> CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a 
> formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN 

> positions remain. The proposal is approved.

> 

> Is this what we want?



Here's an alternative model:



###



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place with=
in the RSWG.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members are expected to partici=
pate.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no C=
ONCERN

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 positions is approved.=C2=A0 If substantial cha=
nges have been made

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in order to address CONCERN positions, an addit=
ional call for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 community input might be needed.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN pos=
itions

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 remain from one of the streams, the proposal is=
 returned to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RSWG.



###



Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is 

that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC 

Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with 

such policies.



Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could be 
overridden.

I don't think we should=
 change things. Unanimity amongst the streams is a bad
requiremen=
t.

-Ekr



Thoughts?



Peter



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--0000000000001d907405cddcdb98--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 13:19:23 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4716A3A07DE for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:18:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2pLp8Are4YJ for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:18:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E2893A0768 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:18:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HQzzT29d0z1p5xs; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633724325; bh=HU9PBw2OfyT1QaZsQKFbq2zD6XtcEGlZAwrCrL6ZM1E=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jXCo7V+qg4y0DMsXiLeGna5jPK8j/b640MbDjM18ofi2C26Q1b2lcdQItY1XdLr4i m1R3w47bL/ZJdRiJtHVxK3KRNLuvF0eEICHrpE8GkSpLBbwgc/T4FK4LFiJKYe3Zg+ 83xoaipjkeN1GWfugcIbf+75xv6ZS/Hluod7gDw0=
X-Quarantine-ID: 
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net
Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HQzzS5QyHz1nvTh; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:18:44 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>  
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:18:56 -0000

I am missing something in the reasoning in Peter's earlier message.

As I read it, the end state is 2 YES and 2 CONCERN.  That does not look 
like a Majority YES.  So I do not see why the text below then concludes 
that the document is approved.  It seems that it isn't.  Which is what 
we agreed we wanted.  (It also seems that with only 1 CONCERN, after 
discussion, it would be approved.  Which is also what we agreed we wanted.)

Yours,
Joel

On 10/8/2021 3:57 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>> Do I have this right?
>>>
>>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>
>>>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
>>>     attendence.
>>>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three 
>>> months or
>>>     when all vacancies is filled.
>>>
>>> Who cannot live with this text?
>>
>> I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this 
>> quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented 
>> in the "Workflow" section:
>>
>>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>
>>     2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
>>         substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>>         positions, an additional call for community input might be
>>         needed.
>>
>>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>>         remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
>>         RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
>>         Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a tie, the
>>         proposal is approved.
>>
>> Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of 
>> CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a 
>> formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN 
>> positions remain. The proposal is approved.
>>
>> Is this what we want?
> 
> Here's an alternative model:
> 
> ###
> 
>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> 
>     2.  A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no CONCERN
>         positions is approved.  If substantial changes have been made
>         in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional call for
>         community input might be needed.
> 
>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>         remain from one of the streams, the proposal is returned to
>         the RSWG.
> 
> ###
> 
> Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is 
> that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC 
> Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with 
> such policies.
> 
> Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could be 
> overridden.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Peter
> 


From nobody Fri Oct  8 13:32:27 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DAF3A082E for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:32:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VVTIj44zeNWJ for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 356F13A0825 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id y67so97085iof.10 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rcum4I/6YvKroiBg14c/ikqDGZ9pce+hDPVZvJTMPgQ=; b=YkMZOMW7BuKZV19brSwq9FZ04/oY2QAqkfABrATdJEIz1VCmdEA1H0FO+EbSJS/8kF 70aN1vFbfvYhsinD/402qjYQEa72OQUMwrtivERWzKZchHkx6Pkbg5+X18ec3sIFEcXw n79IIc6vusTBwZIjOPS41VF+6EM7vUgqp2rGQUXgEMfhpRHGXo/NZrCd2Z1RMbn/ZHuO SkIjhNFW4ZNeJDk+eyxkyXSqSXjP2QKfu+/OWccIxfTtKJdr2D2Qp3LOOXicvYi8ReGL mmFfiRUk/IC/eBsYTDydvQv8GdOyxKhyoE8SEmhAk2Em0AhH7bda69lRMybyCRd6a4RD irMA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rcum4I/6YvKroiBg14c/ikqDGZ9pce+hDPVZvJTMPgQ=; b=qOtJumJFnL0G6rtv/ReCl2yQ+3KMAGNT+vWvpORFwbYorQl6Zm62eeM2AqGtPDd+KX +5YGDSn36y4kDuZQIvciUgDZZ62M80kBgLUyeGzhr7a+h9/OwukLnP4blFAkCVuMcF1u 4Scp7AVVu2yqwRyKyBEOfhx4famHcNkmcW88rHFqRp78ymIK5zAlNCSCgTkx6+t7V10W AvuzdCgq7ROy9x7c5nrqi9Qm6DJsayZmHYNyLxPv2LR69/Rv1+i58Q0qqnwYO1E3ZjJA ZDFUmQLA6RkiWV8PqBo7zReoenVO5WiaGjTaiZNOhXIw6UZ6HAkVUo4++uiSYhSaFkv2 5Iig==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532JH33ypiGrLxiuPxfGza47Y/fVCbCSe3jca5NMCUX/CWwHUpCL 1oUGWmDPul0SDY0xqFwPl9q/ldQOEbdAU/qoH5UK6w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYaCIE8fOwe6ERfjYHjPklAS2UxX8/rwuEg7kXkDIUXxZtv79jbdFDdnd0BuQ4s1MWqr+tLrmgZsjYVrS9q/g=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:13c6:: with SMTP id o6mr9175012iov.149.1633725139266;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>   
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:31:43 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096475805cddd4615"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:32:26 -0000

--00000000000096475805cddd4615
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I believe the relevant text is the last sentence of 3.2.2.

"If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a
formal vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES,
the proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG. In the
case of a tie, the proposal is approved."

Note, I'm not endorsing this text, as I don't yet know what I think, just
trying to understand what things currently say.

-Ekr





On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:19 PM Joel M. Halpern  wrote:

> I am missing something in the reasoning in Peter's earlier message.
>
> As I read it, the end state is 2 YES and 2 CONCERN.  That does not look
> like a Majority YES.  So I do not see why the text below then concludes
> that the document is approved.  It seems that it isn't.  Which is what
> we agreed we wanted.  (It also seems that with only 1 CONCERN, after
> discussion, it would be approved.  Which is also what we agreed we wanted.)
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 10/8/2021 3:57 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> >> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> >>> Do I have this right?
> >>>
> >>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> >>>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> >>>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> >>>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> >>>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> >>>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> >>>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> >>>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
> >>>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> >>>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
> >>>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> >>>
> >>>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
> >>>     attendence.
> >>>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
> >>>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three
> >>> months or
> >>>     when all vacancies is filled.
> >>>
> >>> Who cannot live with this text?
> >>
> >> I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this
> >> quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented
> >> in the "Workflow" section:
> >>
> >>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
> >>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> >>
> >>     2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
> >>         substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
> >>         positions, an additional call for community input might be
> >>         needed.
> >>
> >>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
> >>         remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
> >>         RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
> >>         Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a tie,
> the
> >>         proposal is approved.
> >>
> >> Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of
> >> CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a
> >> formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN
> >> positions remain. The proposal is approved.
> >>
> >> Is this what we want?
> >
> > Here's an alternative model:
> >
> > ###
> >
> >     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
> >         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> >
> >     2.  A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no CONCERN
> >         positions is approved.  If substantial changes have been made
> >         in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional call for
> >         community input might be needed.
> >
> >     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
> >         remain from one of the streams, the proposal is returned to
> >         the RSWG.
> >
> > ###
> >
> > Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is
> > that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC
> > Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with
> > such policies.
> >
> > Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could be
> > overridden.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Peter
> >
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--00000000000096475805cddd4615
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I believe the relevant text is the last sentence of 3=
.2.2.

"If, after a suitable period of tim=
e, any CONCERN positions remain,=20
a formal vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members=20
vote YES, the proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is=20
returned to the RSWG. In the case of a tie, the proposal is=20
approved."

Note, I'm not endorsing this t=
ext, as I don't yet know what I think, just trying to understand what t=
hings currently say.

-Ekr

=





On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:19 PM=
 Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern=
.com> wrote:
I am missing something in the reasoning in Peter's earlier message.=




As I read it, the end state is 2 YES and 2 CONCERN.=C2=A0 That does not loo=
k 

like a Majority YES.=C2=A0 So I do not see why the text below then conclude=
s 

that the document is approved.=C2=A0 It seems that it isn't.=C2=A0 Whic=
h is what 

we agreed we wanted.=C2=A0 (It also seems that with only 1 CONCERN, after <=
br>
discussion, it would be approved.=C2=A0 Which is also what we agreed we wan=
ted.)



Yours,

Joel



On 10/8/2021 3:57 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:

>>> Do I have this right?

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The appointing bodies shall determine their=
 own processes for

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 appointing delegates, such as provision for=
 an open nominations

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 period. If it becomes necessary to replace =
such a delegate for

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any reason, then for the sake of continuity=
 the appointing body

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should name a new delegate to complete the =
former delegate's term.

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Appointing bodies should ensure that voting=
 members are seated at

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 all times and should fill any vacancies wit=
h all due speed, if

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary on a temporary basis. In the case=
 that the IRTF chair or

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to=
 appoint a delegate,

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this responsibility shall fall to the IAB a=
s the appointing body

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of =
voting members in

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 attendence.

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when a=
ny voting members

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 are not present, but for no longer than the=
 earlier of three 

>>> months or

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when all vacancies is filled.

>>>

>>> Who cannot live with this text?

>>

>> I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through =
how this 

>> quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documen=
ted 

>> in the "Workflow" section:

>>

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 If a CONCERN exists, discussion will t=
ake place within the RSWG.

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members=
 are expected to participate.

>>

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 A proposal without any CONCERN positio=
ns is approved.=C2=A0 If

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 substantial changes hav=
e been made in order to address CONCERN

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions, an additiona=
l call for community input might be

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 needed.

>>

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 If, after a suitable period of time, a=
ny CONCERN positions

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 remain, a formal vote o=
f the RSAB is taken.=C2=A0 If a majority of

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RSAB members vote to ap=
prove, the proposal is approved.

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Otherwise, it is return=
ed to the RSWG.=C2=A0 In the case of a tie, the

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 proposal is approved.
>>

>> Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positi=
ons of 

>> CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a=
 

>> formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN =


>> positions remain. The proposal is approved.

>>

>> Is this what we want?

> 

> Here's an alternative model:

> 

> ###

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take =
place within the RSWG.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members are=
 expected to participate.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 A proposal with a majority of YES position=
s and no CONCERN

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions is approved.=C2=
=A0 If substantial changes have been made

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in order to address CONCERN=
 positions, an additional call for

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 community input might be ne=
eded.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 If, after a suitable period of time, any C=
ONCERN positions

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 remain from one of the stre=
ams, the proposal is returned to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the RSWG.

> 

> ###

> 

> Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is=
 

> that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC 
> Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with <=
br>
> such policies.

> 

> Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could =
be 

> overridden.

> 

> Thoughts?

> 

> Peter

> 



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--00000000000096475805cddd4615--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 13:48:00 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F763A095C for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=ZJo9epKe; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=UcMIMq09
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q0xjf7QB0LTG for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5945E3A08FB for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F74D5C009A; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 16:47:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 16:47:44 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=6 OByMSm7OI7pnglh2HdpTPnH2q2xAiOiMAoTU0wGJMY=; b=ZJo9epKeVJWkn7W0I XVdu/hCN1tsDpN6l+6Y9fGBbbWeBvCQuhDzXo7Sxyg9vZIj83Pjj2oY7l5JwNMTG EAt7BfpZsdePpXBUeeQ2hA1ElmVqBMUvHL5PGve+sKHvB3aTGeN4Yv0F8MaTB93H EdpGDrI3v2RHAax7Z+9n5OfhVg/oGGU9Q3Kl0DoLCN7KmDgZMM5YUSjim4mo+bF9 I6zLm6hc5lPt87Brx4yPAaZWEF07rI1YhzjlX6Z+UHpCcfaPY6JCMYNMajMSaW53 u3smPp9K4OfU1JLghmOquG8xm7SeRRGkqSGFEPWNwrRjxadL7ABCV254gz6QFlz8 6VtYA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=6OByMSm7OI7pnglh2HdpTPnH2q2xAiOiMAoTU0wGJ MY=; b=UcMIMq0927LsWPkj5tnwYe0P/nJvxQdQo+UEn5VauVh0wElQdGH+O/d47 Rt7x0IFqixwAdTeoOylagQIBdYmrJxqT3C1HQ8GYBMnBNAlCraDWxnzBQ2oZ1Jbi BsiIQcqwexcQBOFtcaYIzau1KheUeKdZfL77PMmxQ4LBNNDxuN0x0Rvz8pPQnkYp Ckj33h7ci01KZhg3w/NNT6Fs2IkCo/MlqugUot3wlwgJ5FQD8zSXrnKZX6Evm0b0 9uLBENCKwb0OoTL+lebdtQX837UBFoG/UVitP9QBVIJnIBwwmyNQd0z+3dGVToJn dKq901iDt7u7XC3CVWhiQ/OFOgCrA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddttddgudehtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:47:43 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 14:47:39 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>   
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:47:58 -0000

On 10/8/21 2:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM Peter Saint-Andre  > wrote:
> 
>     On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>      > On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>      >> Do I have this right?
>      >>
>      >>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>      >>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>      >>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>      >>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>      >>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's
>     term.
>      >>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are
>     seated at
>      >>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>      >>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF
>     chair or
>      >>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>      >>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>      >>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>      >>
>      >>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
>      >>     attendence.
>      >>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>      >>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three
>      >> months or
>      >>     when all vacancies is filled.
>      >>
>      >> Who cannot live with this text?
>      >
>      > I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this
>      > quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure
>     documented in
>      > the "Workflow" section:
>      >
>      >     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within
>     the RSWG.
>      >         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>      >
>      >     2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
>      >         substantial changes have been made in order to address
>     CONCERN
>      >         positions, an additional call for community input might be
>      >         needed.
>      >
>      >     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>      >         remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
>      >         RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
>      >         Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a
>     tie, the
>      >         proposal is approved.
>      >
>      > Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of
>      > CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a
>      > formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN
>      > positions remain. The proposal is approved.
>      >
>      > Is this what we want?
> 
>     Here's an alternative model:
> 
>     ###
> 
>          1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the
>     RSWG.
>              Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> 
>          2.  A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no CONCERN
>              positions is approved.  If substantial changes have been made
>              in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional call for
>              community input might be needed.
> 
>          3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>              remain from one of the streams, the proposal is returned to
>              the RSWG.
> 
>     ###
> 
>     Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is
>     that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC
>     Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with
>     such policies.
> 
>     Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position
>     could be
>     overridden.
> 
> 
> I don't think we should change things. Unanimity amongst the streams is 
> a bad
> requirement.

Quite possibly. I'm trying to understand what the real concerns are 
behind the continued tussle over this issue. Clearly some folks have 
very strong feelings about ensuring that the streams have voice in the 
policies that get approved. Perhaps the stream managers can have a 
conversation on or off list and come up with a proposal.

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct  8 13:49:15 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105493A08FF for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLaBa-zMshD3 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 395A73A08FA for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HR0fY5wnxz1p8Hl; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633726149; bh=zUf9ios/UF+DwdEVXQLr2as8G4gC/thQaFF7AB/V3D4=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=XV2nxCwSDTJZFJI8LKlzWSmTXLka9qDjG9yZOy71WGNxyCCIML6h4Of5chWnSbHwJ 1/B8RZaFd6ZxRN7YDc+mlWS6dn8dIjZSY1Yf1OGeBe8AtmO/or5+r7+0GW/puUhDPo KPF8xc8pEWNarhkClsciJz922JaW8CyO/5RV6UVE=
X-Quarantine-ID: 
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net
Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HR0fY1zw6z1p5qw; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 13:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:49:08 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>   
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:49:13 -0000

EKR pointed out to me that the issue is the clause saying that the 
proposal is approved in the case of a tie.  (I kept missing that 
re-reading it.  My bad.)

So lets just remove that clause.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/8/2021 4:18 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> I am missing something in the reasoning in Peter's earlier message.
> 
> As I read it, the end state is 2 YES and 2 CONCERN.  That does not look 
> like a Majority YES.  So I do not see why the text below then concludes 
> that the document is approved.  It seems that it isn't.  Which is what 
> we agreed we wanted.  (It also seems that with only 1 CONCERN, after 
> discussion, it would be approved.  Which is also what we agreed we wanted.)
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 10/8/2021 3:57 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/8/21 11:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>>> Do I have this right?
>>>>
>>>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>>>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>>>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>>>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>>>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>>>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>>>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>>>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>>
>>>>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in
>>>>     attendence.
>>>>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>>>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three 
>>>> months or
>>>>     when all vacancies is filled.
>>>>
>>>> Who cannot live with this text?
>>>
>>> I don't like to widen the issue, but I'm thinking through how this 
>>> quorum discussion interacts with the RSAB voting procedure documented 
>>> in the "Workflow" section:
>>>
>>>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>>>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>>
>>>     2.  A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved.  If
>>>         substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>>>         positions, an additional call for community input might be
>>>         needed.
>>>
>>>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>>>         remain, a formal vote of the RSAB is taken.  If a majority of
>>>         RSAB members vote to approve, the proposal is approved.
>>>         Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.  In the case of a tie, 
>>> the
>>>         proposal is approved.
>>>
>>> Let's say there are 4 voting members. Two of them lodge positions of 
>>> CONCERN. They go back and forth in the RSWG and RSAB. Eventually a 
>>> formal vote is taken and 2 members vote YES even though 2 CONCERN 
>>> positions remain. The proposal is approved.
>>>
>>> Is this what we want?
>>
>> Here's an alternative model:
>>
>> ###
>>
>>     1.  If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>>         Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>
>>     2.  A proposal with a majority of YES positions and no CONCERN
>>         positions is approved.  If substantial changes have been made
>>         in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional call for
>>         community input might be needed.
>>
>>     3.  If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>>         remain from one of the streams, the proposal is returned to
>>         the RSWG.
>>
>> ###
>>
>> Yes, this requires unanimity among all of the streams. The downside is 
>> that one stream could hold up changes to policies governing the RFC 
>> Series as a whole. The upside is that no stream will be unhappy with 
>> such policies.
>>
>> Or we could look at a model in which, say, one CONCERN position could 
>> be overridden.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Peter
>>
> 


From nobody Fri Oct  8 14:29:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABD03A0A64 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 14:29:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=PhuxcflQ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=UqLPe2Oo
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GU5jWpzlAjI for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 14:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A7D13A0A5F for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 14:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACA85C018C; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 17:29:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:29:07 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=I Bf5+SEeqbuZ2qnrgcCE/zPiH6xOw9yK2dDrs6uWDMo=; b=PhuxcflQyuWdHjKVZ DlH2NiMxJf0jEFp2j9qujCT8E+qCp0Ho+/RcM2FKeXStl3t2mSMO8jJSbExwaiJ8 dpvXrrvU9nQR5rT1l4YLvTvaoA+lN6dHYu8t4UNtOtbq4RGyJJHtqG6yPd/Xqzgo hE4I/jbGWwMaeItvNdLTljx5mrzfSout8GYnCSMsk+kdbYsmdwnFvXYHFtHBBHXn DMM3mLWTOJyxXRxUl3bwMLNYi5flT5Qe+vexPNLHkVFxaMzqJ3B7cqi8+gW2h5rz XSPL9gQju6uSjF/4U3W/KkbMJs2yFgC8i0OQnk6zrIep1IAYZoSg22zgtn0nqwJD HzfdQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=IBf5+SEeqbuZ2qnrgcCE/zPiH6xOw9yK2dDrs6uWD Mo=; b=UqLPe2Oox32fv1E1soMv3Nc/oTLLK3tcB0Cj7HosHT1BuAPXtn55FaJxr qobIWC1lMufA8ur+W22SqRF26nUCXYHWDq6UbAixsQMqIM9pLHZb2utaMJnv1dsF DPVO4sK0mg4YR7nIzocjN2CTgAb2B+Px5qtj5kiCkUhNHpg6n4ELNmbAt+h4JVBy C8aGMr/pKC9ym6E893ms46qMm2sgKSeeUewzmHcqN2Q+5VooXmjoistzz0hS5Igl tXwyoxZS7RAeTNXeElzoCtXDt17SMYIBqHG0EXkcAXUJe4xOORXK/cErM49QkbJx AQtpGHhZ4sx5AZYMQFdAobncEdWkw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddttddgudehlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 15:29:02 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>    
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 21:29:19 -0000

On 10/8/21 2:49 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> EKR pointed out to me that the issue is the clause saying that the 
> proposal is approved in the case of a tie.  (I kept missing that 
> re-reading it.  My bad.)
> 
> So lets just remove that clause.

Sounds good.

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct  8 16:34:53 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4713A0DDA for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 16:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fhYeDo5-zAN9 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 16:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1410131.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.141.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 566AF3A0DE4 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 16:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=FPvmOVDEkQYppB7DMxEFp+qouPTGGWKMpmhHRIHmGEBTzL5NGh2oKTUKNjG3/mEC4i4xMjrwezDn73nwtEcma9ozpuwLIAlG6eMnOSQa/ALvTDkcDSf0qaYWZ8J+KbOl5BXulhInGFow5Yf2hnnhxfLGwh/ECiQlQoPIWUc0ZaHQn2v6K3ZB51OmLJF349CLgjQx3R6uIzQbIVBEpc2zk0iJLtJ1ihdbJfZV1HR/aFpKVOoKd+thGcOl+LHO2hcgcf9ki8Lp9UiQkjKViBUL6EOiBQgsyCLyVbLZy85UBMN5p21pP84awiBZYV7QxzVWSlT+gBO/lcf0tKDwoiMYuw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=wozLHui3Vb/KCr/vvIno385SnXQHsZ/6hPS+4uQ4P5c=; b=P7+U/jzLmF0X7gwmdmttCC65xeKUgAFf1awUGBhW2kL7OfngJNncUgO+WJyheGOwpj0E8v4rrez+pu35AfYlGQ/ySIWioH0T0v4WLGB0l/BbAbeKDfN4xhntHo1mcbNSEvLtHnwCV7gaEfgrJxMUhtlvHapztghDr6t6PXyJlLGqSN6jThbOXYBVo32UpbnUI5gCZFq9p+MjkqurAxOptU+mtupZgJpTUmkGDmkY6J0GOAb3CkSNbJTpalohaKZKMa8JLqlB3ipbAGJlTCKb3s+oRma6myxNnnSzedG8nyeFLPdzB6JOPO1JIvXzVKBvIx4EuqRdYq+Tv98U61ha4w==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=wozLHui3Vb/KCr/vvIno385SnXQHsZ/6hPS+4uQ4P5c=; b=nFpWieAzQebFqFMtbuXj/gL3h5RqacRqgl0V+1PGBigMK1anUiKwTj8ZHXXWqSztR+WrCOBZvBfq2eDUjTBjcFVtoYPXMKnGHKb/TSuOzPnZzovC26LpWW53mXnzYDswNeTV4aZD2aNGskUb5C8MxGkh2sGQJC/0CbvGeN7/LD4=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYAPR01MB3407.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:cb::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.19; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 23:34:40 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4566.026; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 23:34:40 +0000
To: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> <77675556-DE95-4610-BFBC-A979B433F587@kuehlewind.net> <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <1d2e89de-54f6-0b5c-c45f-924831e28808@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 08:34:38 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: <6f1292b7-5304-1f92-5851-35604449309e@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0123.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::15) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.7] (114.180.49.132) by TYAPR01CA0123.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.20 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 23:34:40 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4c39c37d-6f0f-4ff2-c76a-08d98ab432e8
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYAPR01MB3407:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(346002)(366004)(396003)(136003)(376002)(39850400004)(52116002)(83380400001)(26005)(31686004)(2616005)(2906002)(956004)(786003)(53546011)(66946007)(8676002)(110136005)(36916002)(6486002)(66476007)(66556008)(31696002)(4326008)(966005)(16576012)(86362001)(508600001)(66574015)(38350700002)(38100700002)(186003)(316002)(5660300002)(8936002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?Q2Y2bnFoRUpoUWp6cGlpckRrOG5ZSzVUMmU4MjNmY1dzR3IrdzdYN3phMHd3?= =?utf-8?B?NDFDTTZOQUMxbm85dUZaeEk2NkErM01Uc2d5aURwRFFlTEE5RGZ4aENoWnNW?= =?utf-8?B?b0laQ1JFcjVvQkpITDBqS2NBWFVqbG52MXc5YmtsQkY4Vk9YZWZwNHBDMnZw?= =?utf-8?B?UDBRUHhSaWZTMnpHaG1IK1dIY1hjWkJQMjRvVFU2QkdEUDNXbjVIY0IrY1ho?= =?utf-8?B?dlR5SU5MOTRncFhlVEZwMUhsc3cxTVk5RFNhMjBwWE5udDRCTU4xdzBmY1Iz?= =?utf-8?B?VG1KVVUrSVhaVDdCVFNiOWs1LyszVk1VOTB4UWQ2WlBIUUU5dGppb1Q5NmJZ?= =?utf-8?B?OFFFQTFUNU13b1lkWEhtVFJubHRqS2R1ZjJxYVlZNVpjOSsrVG1QVlEyMFlO?= =?utf-8?B?K0JUdTVwTVRyazMwcmxpME04TnIyZWtQYXRBSjAySUlDdFB4bzVQaUFhVnEr?= =?utf-8?B?b3hKRnB5VXVmeXJaSEFGM0xLUi9ZQ1U4RW1WdU9jNzFHRkVKbnk1YjNjc3N3?= =?utf-8?B?VU55ZVpEQ3RwR3VLL09LM3QybWhadzFsY2djR1NKVVlrVEdJVUIvTXRQMU13?= =?utf-8?B?RXd1aXNnNUcyUWFxZnd1TFdRZVV2ZUxNWEtlYi9jWG4vMXFCckE2Q0dxekJ1?= =?utf-8?B?blZWRWt5eWY1U2dNNnlYWWs3cTRDSEhWV2RJRkxjVXRmTWZzbHZxT1BGR3JD?= =?utf-8?B?cjVhdmhDTk9GYWtwSEZRRGxIdExWN0p5eUtyRU44U0E1UkVKV05TSnJBeVJ2?= =?utf-8?B?N3RJZzgxNklSRTRTSVMzTDhVaTUyS3FmWmgxdkxwWTBtTTZsQjNzMmoyaGVE?= =?utf-8?B?bW5lNDcxdHFOS2hBSFp4S3g0RFNWM21aYVNXTEVmMzNIUExWZEFDbGprdzNJ?= =?utf-8?B?aXBTb21PeWRlMTV4U1JadVI0VlRsUnVLcEdLZitnb1BCVDlCSDZQSWtqb09Z?= =?utf-8?B?MXQwRFJHaEZhOXVvaFJyRk1FTGVjeStEZTI3aWdBLzllZUlCNnRGMWZrODhT?= =?utf-8?B?OURDRnd6SHFndXhPaCtzZk5zbU5KWW5SZnV5VW54Q3d5RVpCTUJGamhNOGFo?= =?utf-8?B?Mm5Wa3lIamZoT0tveGs3UTh5YmtWVlRKd0R6anVuN2tGc21HVnp6WTM3SjFi?= =?utf-8?B?VU5MZmtzWmw5WWZSVUlyNzdkT3pMcnVkV29NSytzd0crMkI3b1czWldnQ1Er?= =?utf-8?B?c3IyUTFOU1dtc1dsTythNVFMUXhxY1lJYmFDWG8yUEtycnM4QlNCYmg0SXhB?= =?utf-8?B?QTJYdHpaVDdKQnJsVWp5YXJoY1k2TXJuelVmbWlxRFVoa0d4d0dTbWhWMXlu?= =?utf-8?B?UXVmWEJJQ3NhaVZXVjdPUW1xaWVnQU1aYWh3UmtoK1h1c1UvcWZvb3NtNTh2?= =?utf-8?B?U2lRWnVTUVExbnJqdHVBWW5CeVgxVHI0N3laZnVGTGdWTzFWWUg0MThPWU1w?= =?utf-8?B?U1pWbVZEemtFSTZMcVluOFpOcmJHY2Y3cE4zd0pYcllTR1cxN3VMWmpkUUNa?= =?utf-8?B?VUVSL2ZuYVM2RzY4MUVBODlMUzZxVDVNaDVNTmNkelJOd1BJdEsyUW9pMzJz?= =?utf-8?B?eTVTTGRIY1NvUmxNa2F3MGxrTzQ3V09PbFhLVXNaczZIRDV6Y2xvSHdlOFF2?= =?utf-8?B?bm9NekdGck5hQVgxUVBsWW1tU1I4ZE95K05sMW9nMStnUXNMTzRvblJ2Vngw?= =?utf-8?B?TENHQnBDdEYwNC9qdTlLWjEzeTJUdnRXRURsRyt5RWFZTGhobmNhNHpYcDNC?= =?utf-8?Q?lHmA/RZmRr5rD00x92sW015ov3BP38q3kEva2yX?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4c39c37d-6f0f-4ff2-c76a-08d98ab432e8
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2021 23:34:40.5535 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: fxHYWVurnMegKjqJZwMoSuSFHnXqsJp2GsAbSIR/ddwU0nULhcSUANuiWN5qT3YW4Rgt1BD3Ks3uTBN8hTdb9A==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYAPR01MB3407
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 23:34:52 -0000

On 2021-10-09 02:10, Eliot Lear wrote:

> The idea is that the IESG and IAB will send who they choose so as not to 
> further burden the chairs.  Those are the delegates to which the text 
> refers.  The same can be said of the IRTF if it so chooses, as well as 
> the ISE.  However, we leave it to each stream to decide this.

Yes, exactly. That's why I think we should take out "such as provision 
for an open nominations period". It's a way of finding people often used 
around the IETF, but if we look at it, we have:
- IAB: Appoints among IAB members, no open nominating period.
- IETF: I guess/we expect the same as for IAB.
- ISE: Will try to find somebody, probably with personal connections
   (because some arm twisting might be involved) or do it themselves
- IRTF (chair): Probably similar to ISE

We don't want to exclude the possibility of an open nominations period. 
But we shouldn't mention a low-probability appointing method while 
leaving out the more usual methods. So please let's just remove that phrase.

Regards,   Martin.


> Eliot
> 
> On 08.10.21 18:06, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Sorry for bringing up another issue with this text:
>>
>> In the document we often talk about the stream managers but this text 
>> takes about delegates. There seems to be some inconsistency here. I 
>> actually thought that the RSAB simply consists of all stream managers 
>> (where I guess the RSCB is the stream manager for the new editorial 
>> stream?). So far, stream managers have been selected by each stream 
>> based on their own process. Do we even need to document this here?
>>
>> Mirja
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8. Oct 2021, at 17:41, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>>
>>> Do I have this right?
>>>
>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>>> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>>> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>>> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>>> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>>> ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>>> this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>>> for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>
>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in attendence.
>>> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>> are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or
>>> when all vacancies is filled.
>>>
>>> Who cannot live with this text?
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Even better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08.10.21 16:58, Russ Housley wrote:
>>>>> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of 
>>>>> face-to-face).  How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Russ
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>>>> Good point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can 
>>>>>>> be done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>      Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>      (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please 
>>>>>>> reply to this one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Martin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  
>>>>>>>>> Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, 
>>>>>>>>> bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  
>>>>>>>>> Or does it mean something else?
>>>>>>>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather 
>>>>>>>> we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify 
>>>>>>>> the text.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  
>>>>>>>> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are 
>>>>>>>> not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months 
>>>>>>>> or when all vacancies is filled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>> -- 
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> 
> 

-- 
Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst
Department of Intelligent Information Technology
College of Science and Engineering
Aoyama Gakuin University
Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara
252-5258 Japan


From nobody Fri Oct  8 19:33:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32F83A0F4A for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 19:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=M+UVlNu6; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=QWzFnq5H
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id okxoq410r5AG for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 19:33:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E258C3A0F48 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 19:33:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0315C0148; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 22:33:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 22:33:09 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=2 w1VDD9yfbdm+g939z6uytvZ7zpyltwo6SvxzrfJJJM=; b=M+UVlNu6IPlr6tS3W yQ14H9jjTNRJ9ukM1zq87764f2NQlKmfLSAqKmNtLItdwsMRQ34shgP21abeL7xD z0Sq5toLYVPTeh1KxLITxM2joFPxibRfApq415k8I3jEbpkFxJc1/DCDNNOcVf/H dQOTOijcgsp0Mwf2kA918uM5IUNOqHiLzFxyn0ebmAWhjNbDijX1Xfofu4ZNYRoW eFo2nTn/rcIhRRk8bKAtBOphKZlrLnZW4tZmdCZ/5MtTn++Xet0y3UhSh35pZ7pl cU6h45wcIz8MkGfksiPI2j9w/XHopWElCWfnrHDnCF0Dbj6T917yoSrY0u4+babb VSsuQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=2w1VDD9yfbdm+g939z6uytvZ7zpyltwo6SvxzrfJJ JM=; b=QWzFnq5H04f3bczh20g8b1f6ShlD8bb1NHtjZb9ibDgGYrpcwy+YkxDIg rIXZhBH/NoeiFjDFuGGMbM1wEbw0p0WmE8zcSpOESaUxLiEiUQH8nVuDeMSgnW4I 3ok/Ua+RKlKJLQvN/1gtlbw1SeS20GrqpOz6DNUDzodZAOdt1gwW0S5UBSXV3oku vOPRpcLlcSF8JjtRsm07de11MZ+yETUaJJWMeZlxvZwjv/E0ok+glNB6JYqJD/nq /keovHWxj6voL8qqiPiM0dbsNfe9k+fRF+u7lO9rXeYf27DQ4Tf1mJEabp4cjFpb qANneRsImryZuSbk7SPiw80lt2SMQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtuddgheelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtje hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffeuudehgefgueeiledukeduteefhf egvefgkeeikeetffelffdujefgleefteehnecuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthen ucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhoth esmhhnohhtrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 22:33:07 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 13:33:05 +1100
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <5A6AEC01-EF4B-4E0B-AB10-B6D957E90593@mnot.net>
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
To: Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 02:33:15 -0000

> On 9 Oct 2021, at 2:41 am, Brian Rosen  wrote:
> 
> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in attendence.  
> Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members 
> are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months or 
> when all vacancies is filled. 

That unqualified SHOULD is likely to cause trouble at some point...




--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Fri Oct  8 19:51:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CC53A0FCC for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 19:51:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=SruTthKh; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=F7NbO6xT
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDUFYQnVU_Lq for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 19:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 100F53A0FCB for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 19:51:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201075C0161; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 22:51:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 22:51:37 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=s aXxPAIcDPRPWRKt9MDyhAKGPRUtUMv9XtcMGy/GJ8o=; b=SruTthKhaBgSKGyfU VvepKoGojd5eReqE16QtW9pU/1BzEDdwz8R3XwxAbArRGeJ3qpEHUKy7T6j23H3w hNCoRR8D+7TdcMokoBPjOPbSut8zSMV9x6gW/2R5hk81OPCVQKZwhmiJ4yIHeslC dkQM/FMi8k/6/srAWbUmcYGr/WK3HpoGnfGceC0UPQDkCVbyDBFQmlyEJEADPBCc SK80y1RFUObqJynFQEziXvZ49PDZ8BWae3YnO3g3PP6VS1yU/UK50su0sw3kJ699 m4SJotYR5tRK/Rm6WZhig79g2a1m132ca9KqHdpN8nZUSCFY2Ex1Rf0IkrgUCp3C MGjOA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=saXxPAIcDPRPWRKt9MDyhAKGPRUtUMv9XtcMGy/GJ 8o=; b=F7NbO6xTmw8gO2NrsNMcEHQ9we5fy52JLB7mEFAoIe864BcLduogKhGvC zMGNVKLjMjzVyQw6qUQGMIIFtnLOXBPz2fZ6mkT8pg1n6Ez+tXbA9YAtGtV2X1Cw nERxQ0gj9Ac7OiKtz+9umARv48VR0kSIweTV6hQdPGp40T55DbAcWDHuILGxX4gk pcYChhDRrp3dPq4bUD3sM9QqxGiYPTaPM93CgdWebEjALZG00DZEhKf8GBPz5mVV WKCiJotrrbIC96NqTSwsS0MbaBjlBz4NITG8SSjOgeJVjHxqUZkp44BWLKEA7szf rxlusiqM31kelfUfp4I23Bsk7zvEg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtuddgieefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfvfhfhufgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgleekveevlefghe ejuefhheeuhfekfedtfffggefhgeetvdegiefgvdekledtgfenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 22:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 20:51:32 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 02:51:43 -0000

On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:

>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members 

This seems to assume the RSAB will always have five members. We might 
want to specify something like 60% or 70% or 80% or two-thirds (in the 
latter case, an RSAB with 6 voting members would be quorate if 4 members 
are available to vote).

> in
>     attendence.
>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>     are not present, 

Talk of attendance and being present makes it sound as if the RSAB makes 
decisions in real time. I'm not sure this is the case.

With regard to documents produced by the RSWG, if we take the IESG as a 
model then RSAB members would lodge public positions, and discuss those 
positions in both the RSAB and RSWG. The "Workflow" section seems to 
assume this, but it's not explicit. I suggest we make it so.

With regard to RSAB discussions that do not lead to approval of 
documents produced by the RSWG (e.g., consultations related to 
implementation decisions), it seems somewhat less important to specify 
the quorum and voting rules.

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct  8 20:08:00 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04463A0FE1 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:07:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hwB-a87n4xNh for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A37AB3A0FDD for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id 5so12791752iov.9 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8PXhC5zN3PjzyL5fdhlIkzStjUCHLmqdFpUyKUNVuaI=; b=Mn7bCt04HutCmhf3/QiXLILphYMPMetiy6sx3Zxm+knF3HFMDaY2QD7iAEPgpL/MA+ jmzoU5mCIMLoh4iU3H0hMBv85pgfymjFwaAB5vwc0qZxpMvNYBvlqc6V9gN3WzAvC/mV i3SA1+MZTwJ7LBpRiZOYaGy57ShZgBW6rFr+7QsiNZVKsiD8bvVclX4LJpKPZPee0Sb+ G6xkzBnvFfJ4A7O5xLrX2wXhowSQBD8QzmwodEnzkDBA5c5/P2ygk5BwSakvEyM3519G wrm9WGuy8fXXLi+UEqK736q07RSxuQu9WqKUDUSPKeuDv3hx4IZds8Eq7ouSd1+S7W2u ZSaw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8PXhC5zN3PjzyL5fdhlIkzStjUCHLmqdFpUyKUNVuaI=; b=k0lc/aLkgkwTmL07DD0Oi9NGykM4HJzNS7dMLa7LaigV1cT9+oF7KT3gm+dspREUNj 82EhDFaj1V6Cm2qiNCZhxGfFRg/GI0xaynNKgeZxWi+PhFDFGIA+OzQxdw4KRJjuD3nt 48XzQ4XiC+UqMxCzXorCBPoliTwXYJL2wU5NVzMQsfCLZ01g4zu6WORPMAMgwlpSh7Q0 UiPk3GVKxXrRtBYm/HpWhw59Xdzjaxb3XiFLiRD2m5ZdCIVcTin3WS4/wuA29jQ9r9bP FQUALfE3QmzkT6WXC7u3IU2+y0yRgGJyavzoDAwq2ZDFTc5JD3GeV/wqbqaqlcpG1aYL y9tQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hEl0Rb2EgAG+6t6azauOMir45BL8VCkJJ+AZ6j/DFY0KGeSdi aerZ1PqNTPRFwnQdkkJ19eiFVCO0ntUP93o9F4qC7t0FCqs=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwpQ+kXLRCWfB2k94C7Nlu7Y4xlUIrL15RPqpsY8APBVjq6ef4Fy+5Qf3iKkqgzH/C+XGCU7/vXQfAiIabAbFI=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:487:: with SMTP id y7mr9856093iov.0.1633748870448;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:07:50 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 20:07:14 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013651705cde2cd86"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 03:07:58 -0000

--00000000000013651705cde2cd86
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 7:51 PM Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:

> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>
> >     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members
>
> This seems to assume the RSAB will always have five members. We might
> want to specify something like 60% or 70% or 80% or two-thirds (in the
> latter case, an RSAB with 6 voting members would be quorate if 4 members
> are available to vote).
>

Given that any new member would require a new RFC--and it's reasonably
likely that this will not be for quite some time --, I would suggest that
we just  defer this issue until then

-Ekr


> > in
> >     attendence.
> >     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
> >     are not present,
>
> Talk of attendance and being present makes it sound as if the RSAB makes
> decisions in real time. I'm not sure this is the case.
>
> With regard to documents produced by the RSWG, if we take the IESG as a
> model then RSAB members would lodge public positions, and discuss those
> positions in both the RSAB and RSWG. The "Workflow" section seems to
> assume this, but it's not explicit. I suggest we make it so.
>
> With regard to RSAB discussions that do not lead to approval of
> documents produced by the RSWG (e.g., consultations related to
> implementation decisions), it seems somewhat less important to specify
> the quorum and voting rules.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--00000000000013651705cde2cd86
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 7:51 PM Peter =
Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
On =
10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting m=
embers 



This seems to assume the RSAB will always have five members. We might 

want to specify something like 60% or 70% or 80% or two-thirds (in the 

latter case, an RSAB with 6 voting members would be quorate if 4 members 
are available to vote).






> in

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attendence.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any votin=
g members

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are not present, 



Talk of attendance and being present makes it sound as if the RSAB makes 
decisions in real time. I'm not sure this is the case.



With regard to documents produced by the RSWG, if we take the IESG as a 
model then RSAB members would lodge public positions, and discuss those 
positions in both the RSAB and RSWG. The "Workflow" section seems=
 to 

assume this, but it's not explicit. I suggest we make it so.



With regard to RSAB discussions that do not lead to approval of 

documents produced by the RSWG (e.g., consultations related to 

implementation decisions), it seems somewhat less important to specify 

the quorum and voting rules.



Peter



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--00000000000013651705cde2cd86--


From nobody Fri Oct  8 20:25:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B10B3A1007 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8FtA1tzXu4km for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8BA63A1005 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id 73so11481205qki.4 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xVqJ8ds9Tv+KETNPHGF/3g/kRWz1ChSOe62ctL6vzV8=; b=vIqPtbw9HHc7/SbxRQLehZ+fALA6L/MfBdRFVvUZ32cOKFw5PA0ut4fS20LB6Ne/q9 dIuq1yY4KMBQuszWVeSRkfc3yoTKYNvwdZ0fp02x2aycre4uZFfNWsF6/GE34QiFLKLR OnA+L9XLPKNDuu7Rr3nfKqljE/eJBtgyQM40zriSbm+xzPPu0d2ZTTfK9+5ikaYUzAUp jWQNh6d4zvpL9C3ikNSNg+eGX6yPcQw9yXYTrrqE7bK9Jk5MeAcNg2hrLb+AVLAZfp2y kM9Dl70rkg6Ii/4ZtkDIFPiNomphznXIYYJ3/RoHNav+VxMoiR7HtFbHKBbh7hhxglKC 5maw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xVqJ8ds9Tv+KETNPHGF/3g/kRWz1ChSOe62ctL6vzV8=; b=1HOy5zRWoRdoffAq2fhVhmY4YgIo6e75yvQB8Lm9gNAJ3wCUZ8kuB+r8y6LbyzjsDZ yyWlLZ1lWtpQsZTl+I7BqQJjq959bugVi+6P7UcslmYjE2WsEfnPb4txDIixXQPmRBWg vFyX2bN5qoWpIajAkJFEG7IskUTz0B21RfUJtwPcDT9wALycQx7krMhpyLz42buyHUFv tQZlAyP9BcbpewUZY48kLVvFoNgjFZwzPwr8zhIcP7cJY2FKn6QrQUVVS+BnmTPBkohW kKbC30bFVNChUObOO+E94ogBoQKJMYEk42H6/qMuTaI6vOGMXuDoVYSUjHxeC2otHfUG Gkxg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fJyLVerZiZ2SMr2yBvh34C9HttbSUKakpdDE10IF9XtzBzhyE r8KBw8P/Gtw3X5DI8bVZnpSanWKHuH8jOB93/ks=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxfVsgJwQ4mALr9xKKjH0Il/LtjyDzqYfaMFtWdZFC62D1Q60wtuBdCox/b0+QH76tjM0HVYw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:34b:: with SMTP id t11mr5234267qkm.114.1633749950849;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 130sm937043qkh.99.2021.10.08.20.25.50 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <324a408e-9cf3-253e-02fa-be78c861160c@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 23:25:48 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 03:25:57 -0000

On 10/8/2021 10:51 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>
>>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members 
>
> This seems to assume the RSAB will always have five members. We might 
> want to specify something like 60% or 70% or 80% or two-thirds (in the 
> latter case, an RSAB with 6 voting members would be quorate if 4 
> members are available to vote).

I suggested some text, but Brian thought the formula I suggested was too 
complicated and unnecessary as we had specified (at this time) only 5 
voting members.  4/5ths works (is descriptive) for a group of 5, but is 
somewhat less useful (less descriptive) for a group of 6 or 7.    2/3 of 
5 is 4, 2/3 of 6 is also 4.  2/3 of 7 is 5.  4/5ths of 6 is 5, 4/5 of 7 
is 6.

Then there is still the question of how many votes are required.   If 
it's a majority of the non-vacant positions, then its 3 of 4 or 3 of 5 
for a total membership of 5 and a 4/5ths quorum.

Which is why I keep coming back to "The quorum of the RSAB shall consist 
of  the [majority | 2/3ths | 4/5ths] of the specified voting positions.  
Approvals require yes votes from the majority of the specified voting 
positions"

I don't think we want the lack of a member to reduce the number of yes 
votes required to approve a document.

>
>> in
>>     attendence.
>>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>     are not present, 
>
> Talk of attendance and being present makes it sound as if the RSAB 
> makes decisions in real time. I'm not sure this is the case.
It isn't.  I think what they mean is "Document approvals SHOULD be 
delayed if any voting member position is vacant".  But I agree with Mark 
N that the "SHOULD" here needs to be qualified at a minimum.
>
> With regard to documents produced by the RSWG, if we take the IESG as 
> a model then RSAB members would lodge public positions, and discuss 
> those positions in both the RSAB and RSWG. The "Workflow" section 
> seems to assume this, but it's not explicit. I suggest we make it so.

Could you expand on this please?  In the IESG, they don't provide a 
"recorded" position until the document is presented for publication 
after WG last call.  I would expect that the RSAB members positions in 
the RSWG would be more informal - as are most WG participant positions, 
and not necessarily subject to a formal recordation process beyond the 
normal WG mailing list give and take.

>
> With regard to RSAB discussions that do not lead to approval of 
> documents produced by the RSWG (e.g., consultations related to 
> implementation decisions), it seems somewhat less important to specify 
> the quorum and voting rules.

Same comment - could you expand on this?   Generally, most formal 
actions (e.g. document approval) should require a quorum and a specific 
voting threshold.  If you want to define a class of informal, non-quorum 
or voted actions, it might be useful to provide a worked example and 
some rather clear delineations between the two classes.

Later, Mike



>
> Peter
>


From nobody Fri Oct  8 20:27:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11B83A1007 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uckjUvp-_7kx for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F2EC3A1005 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id oa4so8271871pjb.2 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pecrsqOnw8bcuzvlVV2e0xmpfaaWRBDL5M7Ck5eLEZk=; b=eO8kQ4wk4T8OagN2tq4cTlAG9+ebXutCXasG0oWkhza/sq/6or+TxZ+ygAJBsoWZAC rSK3tgGqLbVh87ueaXr+rUdhmuT2WPQuwKgPzvKEIyb2Z/EGFTaaRVsuL3ShtCGyjDbq N4n/2TGANE2gSbbfidtd6vLXb+gh2FoOKBTkl78SjnMQ2OU8PmZtYs29Pw5cEn5IPfSB HXYWHzKj1EZoxkAjeejpb6XfrPgbb0oUKIA/ly/njeeOBnMPLiGb2pSaZXRnMQZCBvpQ Nz6pm8XQV8WiZ0+MidfeHdqxyZY6FBM1sQi9ZOSgLqBC3l7+dDkEoDbOOsro/E4sM8go i+Kg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pecrsqOnw8bcuzvlVV2e0xmpfaaWRBDL5M7Ck5eLEZk=; b=cxkB+9UMGZLsfo7R7YIdtEmnmJ5uTyzJ5LWoNxCnHw4h6DLn1QP7ws0V+SJaTcXe82 RJmWFOqQFtW82suq7oxLCdLDf1ebNxIoJCcX9aWdmrzIkBcnMJ6fDKj9el9vRa3jCu94 fAhXBVWsxLdpzFY4CDrjV5Elhr/xPJFiYxide28070OepwV854s7ktAw5jQEuyh1QsBx wyQhjV6isgsTDeYNp2izjG7dtmsAnv7vDQjKN73nMekTokyAozuyEOfTCULSPAp8CfOE PrfGhd9LFKP0r83db9+DatCxK3idKL3cdG3X7tKBDAam6dnFv5aYvjDxymqZ74umLB0/ G5aw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531c3sxnpgvN5R58ehF4shwlJgQWcASTD1559zKEplknzFrLPXED j/eFM4FuVaCggAQVb8g95xaWiuNwsuJI8g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWni4HGIZM9jAeRPoUlPm8txnZmi0PWyvZ+zse6GUcrvhU7no9Gmn9wSuedf1Z7MCUG7SWGg==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3852:: with SMTP id nl18mr16190232pjb.9.1633750015400;  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:26:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u24sm630864pfm.81.2021.10.08.20.26.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:26:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <003be37a-3b4c-2e43-dcf8-798c7b951ae6@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 16:26:51 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 03:27:00 -0000

On 09-Oct-21 15:51, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/8/21 9:41 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
...
 
>> in
>>     attendence.
>>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members
>>     are not present, 
> 
> Talk of attendance and being present makes it sound as if the RSAB makes 
> decisions in real time. I'm not sure this is the case.

s/present/available/

   Brian
 


From nobody Fri Oct  8 20:39:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A983A1028 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuHeWF3EyFny for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 473DA3A1026 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 20:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id a73so4994378pge.0 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N+FFOyzn67IDuxrhqQsINvfwfvoedYssaH01A1rSeRA=; b=b3sy9NLa9neXl8JPUeHgs977279dhHq5BwgmtwoEdQaEhnkWYGuG/cFWV0J1xN06YO D9qN5Vimer09JnEgVES4LULKm2X/6W1Mn7ctzy1G8b1Ekulda4HFj59bU3iAwrjJLo0+ YfMS86cx73SqzDpaWCXeG8qnUSazJELawUIc89jqcfdo5E3WXNEKSfC0X1GwSiVT9hSW p8WyIGNfOvRZSU+5RTM/QRsAGJjK+t54FrSeNWv989YK73daF8z0REcP4X5j5CjhSJ9q PlmpC9ID0/cXYRXKcvO0bbUUVqVTozRP1G7OI3dI9CHLGwUsQypovroszR8+Gf5x83MK 6fCw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=N+FFOyzn67IDuxrhqQsINvfwfvoedYssaH01A1rSeRA=; b=o0kOsF8peqk4lxkT5lfg2XvqV2S2qzcK6WiLAVWU0qLk8LKQcnTW/ZMhGiXVv1CNdI v5CDrIFuoiXboEoZfBr4HPs7nqxZwaE0boLuOgtrVnwYRmVd0ViWjm8jXvuV+86+mO6+ tGKF9MuQOhLJ/o783wQ8P/jFpxleiKlGwdzOTIiWyjkOdnFP3PAM3ChZvq03ct4Y8ejz oKcP1qUSfPgQYVysAdwnDCIXnBnIbq0olhoBaKhInr6+z1+pH+g2TfO2KLH3Tur1k1HL JAxInXphjbnxdO/gqQUJ1mOrEoOHMzgLQpewg5zYVZTOL+2fq3+n46RxDceBatfpHj7x wjpA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531VP7CxBzKxV3xT82hnpxP+nxpQ5DoreabMSAUKRKVW2Eqf3Sl5 p+A864MXfKauOyYkAUIz9AFSXYYPgolsaw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQKFcaI137hdwng8eHqd6iIxd/2g6VtFfcjWxRGU3A5VXZdskA3GnCzDWVuPw3gZe047Qmxg==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:20f:: with SMTP id 15mr7665458pgc.319.1633750734058; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:38:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i1sm721006pgc.94.2021.10.08.20.38.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Oct 2021 20:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <90639932-6631-ed32-3866-22e50b3464b9@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 16:38:49 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 03:39:02 -0000

On 09-Oct-21 04:41, Brian Rosen wrote:
> Do I have this right?
>=20
>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>     appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
>     period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>     any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
>     should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
>     all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
>     necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or
>     ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
>     this responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body
>     for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>=20
>     Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members in attend=
ence. =C2=A0
>     Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members=C2=A0
>     are not present, but for no longer than the earlier of three months=20
or=C2=A0
>     when all vacancies is filled.=C2=A0
>=20

s/delegate/member/
s/in attendance/being available/
s/any voting members/any voting members other than the RSCE/
s/present/available/

On the voting rules question, personally I would scrap all that and make
it much simpler. I like this: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2850.html=
#section-3.5
but then, I was the document editor ;-).

    Brian



From nobody Fri Oct  8 23:52:37 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B98C3A1539 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 23:52:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l7aP21H-svTe for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 23:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400115.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 655FA3A1535 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 23:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ErtA+2DBX5cP1OHDAQ4Plxe8PAfhJ3bEjK6JaAoZBQRJqKWcQouao/QlubBCSaqX2qD5TvZrt5OO+D4yUREgTAnV5WA/P/bYOHqMra28cA+Rq8+SnItNM0yyH06XDo+XyM4eSODMLhLE9KMbvaZpGM7td5+Z0yu1rQsiQQTlahnWTj7234N7kaWqRA6EcZyhjkasA2sNDWwd+2rLuIglIQYWIe+DsNkgt2Lxo1cf+2V0J1S8rxiqrlXUes7KH/ExCW4udDe+UaoMFGxDihVlkkw+xi58dBNpw8X3ENb2xR9QZwXmYZDgHOfWdlJWVXlXAkMBTLqnohOp9ahcKCj3ZQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=7+m3YsdNjCivYY8j7MlJPmMYHOYszbBUC+Z+Yq9dRKo=; b=Dy8wJ+5iTjRgiYxnISfpm1fw9k0yQZfTlQmaFLwuGCgSByINTBYKRQq6FD5aafZGuiy1xXNaodFsbpY1N2Hh+pWplVY66h6fw/z7yTP0KZXBxXA/EsFM3oSpY+0b3iq5rRY5AOMG7QLmflRY1+r/qFZlWfBqFWp7cHJ9+MVzblRyO+ca040jfOG2OFzXp44/I/QPBB49GSPwuKcrL43WiJd0YvtDB3OhVskoun4QnZPjx3HH+tSg4AIYKyCZz5LvhQ+3Y3d9NPncuvWHpDrjV0r1GUzFKAyU7FR7q9+O7v//dxouy3fGj4W+HcAXd6eVUxDmq2WBaWUZcyWeKFDXCQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=7+m3YsdNjCivYY8j7MlJPmMYHOYszbBUC+Z+Yq9dRKo=; b=GvQw7dHIQ9DX+V7PQLl91XrXeGEkIPFRZ96/IbfwEhB1Imdsz/0FaWaac9cGEOXg2ohcx3ZKyom9C80726UrQh9tAmjTnSm1TFFRYQuTt3szGtNJqyc4sHSmhRQDbYMZTEw8w7k3ozYv7/iGxUHrKDTBwGy3TbBSaiZBL7sm/E8=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (20.183.22.7) by TY2PR01MB3851.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (20.178.142.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.22; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 06:52:26 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4566.026; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 06:52:25 +0000
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net> <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <7ac6cf73-3deb-3f7e-461c-192395537dae@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 15:52:23 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: <78b991be-91c3-a5e9-cc64-e5880af69052@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TYXPR01CA0045.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:403:a::15) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.7] (114.180.49.132) by TYXPR01CA0045.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:403:a::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4566.21 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 06:52:25 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: cb096d89-50ad-4b39-8047-08d98af15a43
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TY2PR01MB3851:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(136003)(396003)(39840400004)(366004)(376002)(346002)(53546011)(316002)(8676002)(786003)(66946007)(26005)(66556008)(66476007)(4744005)(508600001)(186003)(2616005)(2906002)(52116002)(8936002)(83380400001)(956004)(36916002)(31696002)(86362001)(5660300002)(110136005)(38100700002)(38350700002)(6486002)(16576012)(31686004)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?YXZqai9vVGxXMldNUWtJalVnVnFqZGF6VTRDWmpMa1hFaCtKKzNtbzZFOGw5?= =?utf-8?B?dTYrOEMzMURkMnRBN0g4eDhkQUVUZXRac2JwUEs5RzBibk43MENZNFdYZUZF?= =?utf-8?B?ODJmaG1zZytmWU51NmRFbDAvQTZDUnlUanp2NGxvVy9Dd1V5dnFmZURyYlV3?= =?utf-8?B?Nm1YVlVvMytZcHNsWTcvTXEwRVgydjN5ZmdlWUZZd2tUbTk3K0lnL1hUakxM?= =?utf-8?B?OURiUThzVkd2SGZZY285d2JNK3V5eTZJNFlwckljMU16RFJoUTQ1YWwvL0RE?= =?utf-8?B?cHFnWlNhak1vcDNNd21hcXd0U2hYOHNES3NobTg3T0xZN1o1Z3Q2N0xFUlVS?= =?utf-8?B?MjlpakkrMnJRanVEYnRXVzk5UUpZNDJkTkpTVGdKdG9sSmJ1dEovUTNhZU9P?= =?utf-8?B?ZXZUa2dHazFGRVBNKzB0czVXYnZZci93VXNtN1BaM3ZteGdWMlRFQWd2RlJR?= =?utf-8?B?R3VqL2ZkaTBsRndvRkw4S3BmWjlnL3R1ZmYwR2dJN2VST0s0dDVSSVdkSlkz?= =?utf-8?B?b3kwMm9HVGxqVC9tUTJBNE9HQ2dzcGxFNlFtM2xIVlVubjV2QnBvQ2dWenFW?= =?utf-8?B?YTcwcnFkWFJRVHFoZFdZbUlaaUJCZEN6Zm02RkxibndRdWg0RFpHUVcvRy9N?= =?utf-8?B?ZWVmOHRKMW82aUlNNFVNbmYyV3U0SFZTT1RXd0VDU043dlRoRnlnR1hHamdJ?= =?utf-8?B?dlIrQU5jVmpTUG5WVTYrYUQwWnIwcW1xVjRUS01MRWE2S0NyUGVEeExNN2Ex?= =?utf-8?B?SkhERVhDL2puMW1USWFqWlZaWm0zb1dmQTF3YUFyc2ZXY3N0QXd3MFlUNmNo?= =?utf-8?B?UnFsd0dhSXQ4bHNmd1lPbTM5VWN4Uy9xT2svRG1HVHIyamM4VzJPbDBPTndr?= =?utf-8?B?MmJXN2FFek4yUU50TExlMkRLYUJaT01UZEpEdVFDckRnOFp1UFdQM3hpTlp2?= =?utf-8?B?MHJuTTR1UTlYVHYrL2ZxaFBYRU85Rm1pOU9Xbkd0UnI2aWs5dklJT0hzOXpj?= =?utf-8?B?WFpnOGhMYzZqQ2ZDUnlxTGFaQXRyc0JKOXZuOFFsVTlHVG1wV2pnS1JIbUVG?= =?utf-8?B?M0FFSlZtZjcyeEZOeVZJNTdTVk5OYkJnQ2ltQjVHbis3WFpNRWRKcTNOWFpz?= =?utf-8?B?Wkg2cGpIc056cWVMcFdISkRubytoeVpuUVVmdGoxTzhJNkRuN0ZjWURwRnU4?= =?utf-8?B?clp6ZEJIU25weVh1Qi9jOVV6dkxPMm4xcGFvMm1DTUhHTS93RFdjWnFkMVR4?= =?utf-8?B?djNLQzdvNHBBaU1HOUIzM2ZGblBNWXd5cXVock0yWFVROUdSSDdBM2l1SmVT?= =?utf-8?B?Q3ZibjV3Z2hOLzNzeVg4ajF4YVlDODNndlNwL09NL2FoOUVzVWRwKzJCc0Q5?= =?utf-8?B?aTZHODZSSTRicWFTbE5TcXV3UDlZWHpPVGMzLzR4bXRsYWt5YnkvWEdjU1k1?= =?utf-8?B?TU1qcnpXeXZlTElIVXpvTC96VmRQOXdkUittS3d4NjFBNTREcmtFWTZIZ1dH?= =?utf-8?B?OUFQVlNqamVPRThIU09OcVlYUjRDZm1qTE9Dczc0ajFrM1UzaDhNQm1zS2JT?= =?utf-8?B?d042MUZYWXdnemM1NWpJNFJRZEhNcHd0SGZPeU5YYXdvbE5NczFSV3RuWStT?= =?utf-8?B?NEZMdlhVQTltQVE1R2FSRjhqaWErOElkMVBxRlE5YUtySThkWlA4ZFcyazhL?= =?utf-8?B?MThJNFNSZkJBSk9LY214UEQ5UnN1OWVDNlFxcGR0UUdjYVNZcWU0VFV3YUNp?= =?utf-8?Q?+LNa9+ou0PU/ploX1LQxtyVgOPgcd+u8jsFXJEY?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cb096d89-50ad-4b39-8047-08d98af15a43
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2021 06:52:25.8040 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: hXyPuGAExZBiTbtLNVkB4Co6ntTa4JgbFYH3H1hpZOLcODyu4OUqMTQQDQKsIHqT5Dv5xtf04v0eXzFkqVZrkQ==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY2PR01MB3851
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 06:52:35 -0000

Hello Peter, others,

On 2021-10-09 11:51, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> With regard to documents produced by the RSWG, if we take the IESG as a 
> model then RSAB members would lodge public positions, and discuss those 
> positions in both the RSAB and RSWG. The "Workflow" section seems to 
> assume this, but it's not explicit. I suggest we make it so.

Well, it's close to the IESG, but there's one important difference:
All RSAB members are supposed to actively participate in the RSWG, and 
make their positions and the concerns of their streams known early. And 
the WG, I'd guess, will take these concerns seriously. So the approval 
of documents should be much more just a formality than in the IESG, 
where discusses are quite frequent, because ADs read a document for the 
first time.

So please be careful about "make it so".

Regards,   Martin.


From nobody Fri Oct  8 23:54:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAEF3A1538 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 23:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oeP7NyaJdn2J for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 23:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E5813A1535 for ; Fri,  8 Oct 2021 23:54:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:ac53:6556:26a5:4548] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:ac53:6556:26a5:4548]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1996sWoe3867760 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Oct 2021 08:54:32 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633762473; bh=E1BH2m/FYlnnbufCXiDb8WcSMRF12NXRyztZS2R45f0=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Sv8m+EjwqpwAkqDnwssQ7Tj/lbXITDWAvkEsuTyGJyvMzUOCYg2aJHkLo4wk96RVy s2H4IK/bzUfUdRq0RtH40lbh9hf9k5mMPPvnZTch1XpJRYZ7OJAcC4zf4TMuXsweW1 Bxy+yTyt0Ztn43Bzp/LfXeEkxx3QqqI7iMK0M8T0=
Message-ID: 
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 08:54:32 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>    
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------m5NTU9P93KNo46NJhS3yF0s5"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 06:54:42 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------m5NTU9P93KNo46NJhS3yF0s5
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------vKfOTSqEgI10ZFyWdU6uU6eX";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "Joel M. Halpern" ,
 Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>
 <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>
 
 
 <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org>
 <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com>
 <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net>
 <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com>
 <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch>
 <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>
 
 <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch>
 <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
 
 <6F50CE6D-4719-4353-A983-210C3D59AD81@brianrosen.net>
 
 
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------vKfOTSqEgI10ZFyWdU6uU6eX
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------vKfOTSqEgI10ZFyWdU6uU6eX--

--------------m5NTU9P93KNo46NJhS3yF0s5
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFhPKgFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejP1
bQf/V2jZdc8fAnJq4n63mh1D3UW0KywiDLQp/AC9jReX+W0q6+4EsybSKURit5HMusoqLOm0Xd7X
QbHuos1Ck9wc4xCOheKNHcrmStQwDJYW4L/66TDy1Dh8DSrNwI6S6QnVkdgoPsOJWPVxhlVVQ8bX
uWI+pwIC6xQkPaeWUh3khvozEc+VbRDhgel2yQvfrCDfJYtXZeJdh2nRzenb3SKFjO5bR9OqShP3
FvkCZlehdxuyEyQ1ahhMk6rH1wsmruvmXLikN0/0asO4C30cktJ2dGXr3uGiObXwdk2G0j6nmIE+
95XCd1AOtHaJhNAVp9vvu9f2/DGDwhm7DHjcu1hZFQ==
=ms+J
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------m5NTU9P93KNo46NJhS3yF0s5--


From nobody Sat Oct  9 00:24:57 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB233A00B3 for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 00:24:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GuTS2vhVr9uX for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BEE53A00B0 for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id n8so46050875lfk.6 for ; Sat, 09 Oct 2021 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ES86OrzVAv6qnE61UrpNNXsMEYmsI6fcncvyQPX9qDY=; b=cSAP/UtnOeZHeDOhgg2kf3HWZ/z6B0zwr43AnzJq5IHCEdEmkNw9/lqhlW60GTApWf ywXMm8q3jmTAI3YsYc8caTYFXlvDKPu75XT5YdGeI+qrAOqYu9SpJQmL24vO03/RcLWy HzVegm2poSTAf565SwP6x2qeqTryz6eB+jL5GR9uhO0/UnYV7inVoTQwMTyaBpJIQYqS 3T9blSa3ZBgXwIUAPLCxZblEn/GBh51S5A7bQIXPPxflhbkujPYW9+e4sJUliYhSUXmU 8e/U7k8fRPoLTGWe0JggAwXYVC7zV7sJbxUngzob2sN3XCEja0BhKf1ZoQiksvt2FYyt 0Pvw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ES86OrzVAv6qnE61UrpNNXsMEYmsI6fcncvyQPX9qDY=; b=B1EG+jlg4zJuhVehDLLjTCNgqcuROhhcYWs1bseLFff2kxg/4C9tT02GEPz26WwXkB nbKywk/ZZ/lEsfx2KigriQaQnHsHmtW6jZo996LAyX3DgC6QQPKhqCkhF7d+HOj3LcOq PGTehBBA8yU9Tu9GqOuglLC8xZhhzzlctrL/iP6MDJy3oMSOhY12VJReUIUqNQhU+1d8 sDYcLUkmCeWFKXsWjFNqiFZ8UxHiA45gXP5NH+ohK9pAWiLJ0xDnO36c9i8nQrWUfrBq Rt6YsBPBRxOIYTeczt3jbKQfX8mVVCldOwrLBgH1NWpjLfb9zp36BO7jx87ZOR1SqFyz wXYw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uqGcO0u9Wmzgnf+DUXRV4yG7HkdcxUaJ18curZo2DtTRXqGox ccaa73RZAb4QK6ph2nMeDRoJiOKEzJrgIAZvlBQ=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzC80yoB7EjBz8rr+oB0JnbjXRB9oou1e21pOCGG6R7Uv1Hu8Qh0RlLqpKW0aqS4DBsHNZG95vi2rWmwilRU58=
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:48a5:: with SMTP id u5mr4682382lfg.80.1633764287716; Sat, 09 Oct 2021 00:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <35606fa1-b7c9-99f2-e350-a90530381140@gmail.com>  <9d380cc8-9db2-4ed6-a8c3-ea77ec988190@mozilla.com> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
In-Reply-To: <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>
From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 20:24:35 +1300
Message-ID: 
To: Russ Housley 
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000004224305cde664b2"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 07:24:56 -0000

--00000000000004224305cde664b2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

What meeting? Why would the RSAB need actual meetings? Assuming they
participate in RSWG as required, most approvals should be non-contentious &
only need a short email exchange. (Of course, there may be exceptions, but
"available" covers all cases.)

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, 03:58 Russ Housley,  wrote:

> Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face).  How
> about "voting members in attendance"?
>
> Russ
>
> On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>
> Signed PGP part
>
> Good point.
> On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>
> "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can be done
> online, mainly email. So try "available".
>
> Regards,
>     Brian Carpenter
>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>
>> I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please reply to
>> this one.
>> On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hi Martin,
>> On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>
>> 3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?
>>
>> This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would rather we go
>> back to small bounded delays. And I would like to simplify the text.
>>
>> Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting members.  Document
>> approvals SHOULD be delayed when any voting members are not present, but
>> for no longer than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is
>> filled.
>>
>> This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>
>
>
>
>

--00000000000004224305cde664b2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


What meeting? Why would the RSAB need actual meetings? As=
suming they participate in RSWG as required, most approvals should be non-c=
ontentious & only need a short email exchange. (Of course, there may be=
 exceptions, but "available" covers all cases.)

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpente=
r
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Sat, 9 Oct=
 2021, 03:58 Russ Housley, <hous=
ley@vigilsec.com> wrote:
Available is =
not the say as at the meeting (virtual of face-to-face).=C2=A0 How about &q=
uot;voting members in attendance"?

Russ
On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear <=
lear@l=
ear.ch> wrote:

Signed PGP part

 =20
   =20
 =20
  
Good point.

    

    
On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter
      wrote:

    

    

     =20
      
"present" implies physical presence. I ho=
pe most
        of the work can be done online, mainly email. So try
        "available".

        

        
Regards,

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

      

      

      

        
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39
          Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch>
          wrote:

        

        

          
I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, bu=
t
              please reply to this one.

            

            
On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:

            

            
<No hats>

              
Hi Martin,

              

              
On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:

              

              

                
3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja'=
s edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, =
bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it =
mean something else?

              
This is the issue; I don't see it meaning=
 that.=C2=A0 I
                would rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I
                would like to simplify the text.

              

              
Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of vot=
ing
                  members.=C2=A0 Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when
                  any voting members are not present, but for no longer
                  than the earlier of three months or when all vacancies
                  is filled. 

                

              
This provides ample time for any reasonable p=
rocess to
                conclude.
Eliot

              

              

              

            

          

          -- 

          Rfced-future mailing list

          Rfced-future@iab.org

          https://www.iab.org=
/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

        

      

      

      

    

  






--00000000000004224305cde664b2--


From nobody Sat Oct  9 07:40:35 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A193A0CED for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 07:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZBhCP68RmYjV for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 07:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0C913A0CEB for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 07:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HRSQh1tWDz6GRM1; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 07:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633790428; bh=+TDXGOElIUtK68CrIbgMKLdy0AgFn5fHiBkuVXtQiSQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=pcUltuS/bjJtSR25NVhQwxZkRRAsFoPPhr8/MCpVRFhxlX15jQrVbLeYPmf9XU8WM fy2FLSXujvh+pnYiegs9UjWcpWK0/EEep+5KOIfzNnMu0uEZ5JHtnTbwOIAVBiRoRQ I3pqGaYwNbeSLHsaszlDwiZSbVacutjDMvC736+Q=
X-Quarantine-ID: 
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net
Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HRSQg3rv7z6G9Hm; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 07:40:27 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <97996d9b-4b2c-adc5-5782-fbdf0cfd1813@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 10:40:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch> <2ca1bf76-d51b-ea13-99db-797da3242cb9@gmail.com>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com> 
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 14:40:34 -0000

Given my experience with other IEtF-related bodies, I expect that things 
will work more smoothly if these folks meet face to face once in a 
while.  this can likely be coupled with the face to face meetings that I 
sincerely hope we will be able to re-start having soon.

(Side note: yes, I consider proposals that the IETF move to a pure 
virtual operation to be a mistake.  Note that even large open source 
communities that really do almost all their work remotely have 
consistently found it very helpful to have face to face meetings once in 
a while, and are pushing faster than I expected to resume those.)

Yours,
Joel

On 10/9/2021 3:24 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> What meeting? Why would the RSAB need actual meetings? Assuming they 
> participate in RSWG as required, most approvals should be 
> non-contentious & only need a short email exchange. (Of course, there 
> may be exceptions, but "available" covers all cases.)
> 
> Regards,
>      Brian Carpenter
>      (via tiny screen & keyboard)
> 
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, 03:58 Russ Housley,  > wrote:
> 
>     Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of
>     face-to-face).  How about "voting members in attendance"?
> 
>     Russ
> 
>>     On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear >     > wrote:
>>
>>     Signed PGP part
>>
>>     Good point.
>>
>>     On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>     "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can
>>>     be done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>
>>>     Regards,
>>>         Brian Carpenter
>>>         (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>
>>>     On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear, >>     > wrote:
>>>
>>>         I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please
>>>         reply to this one.
>>>
>>>         On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>
>>>>         Hi Martin,
>>>>
>>>>         On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>         3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?
>>>>
>>>>         This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would
>>>>         rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like
>>>>         to simplify the text.
>>>>
>>>>             Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting
>>>>             members.  Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any
>>>>             voting members are not present, but for no longer than
>>>>             the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is
>>>>             filled.
>>>>
>>>>         This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>>
>>>>         Eliot
>>>>
>>>>
>>>         -- 
>>>         Rfced-future mailing list
>>>         Rfced-future@iab.org 
>>>         https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>         
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 


From nobody Sat Oct  9 13:29:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC323A0825 for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:29:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bUjoNNBB09AR for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9CE3A0821 for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id s11so6733921pgr.11 for ; Sat, 09 Oct 2021 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WBazopIreMn0F9FIJmQD4DBQj9wxmko5p5X++0jCxNo=; b=HuujeTZYTbVU+SYRtW/zecatjDSqgHBn3iN16RPI6j98tFDkPViRwNUf4vsam8Sjq4 T7nHbBYuHShPNp/Bg65sTekB8spCNqOkgurkqq+iUDeZb90+AY+VuxbzNqhq1BI9/XUT iyY/F2/Eyo+jycIZvSGtpTajUqGnBYPLE+tTNprOWEK4oZ8N/7uogXMrx0hFQgXtnEjU cIHSv0jEdNMkoSclJGG2gsqo3bcv/58ID2Q9WBtT8JbVspUWN6zYSIgZ69fX6G9yL+/Y Cuku5+IJeDUL3kvKAZ9HVXF3NVLOWua+OaUq7OMJ/R+1SGlQNqjEQLfjUtbuCqo5Dph0 04Iw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WBazopIreMn0F9FIJmQD4DBQj9wxmko5p5X++0jCxNo=; b=XrtstWiCc8s407gFLFlBv8quzWVP4wzZLXCp1qCuaM7Hsg0NVLwDuIjGeUin/zD25O s9vlCGncPcBhEnCXOwbuXWKmkIK1y0iDm3VfhNPq6lMtmMs5POXYifW87s2rRWDeW013 kZpqWU/SKF3GgemkeuQdOKbt63rSdzdEMmZmbUF3p/CD++m4GTUCQ5g0ruNN23W3aECO +lVMrSO2n0D55rnbZLq+NN5pFi7XRwD2zj72/bYbsUBP4uMAPdFq9iOL2X/nmEhi1RcP uQLlB94oV5xTj6+zUghRJNm8zWJTDVU0XsfHXYVWumiObD8SQ200Bg8bYfLNMX8qFJyU iFBA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mM5TQNLc+3sl99qgdi3I/5PqpsptIUEMhGGqT9SSkLItLPBIU HMEtqJMF8d7S8p7axAvrxHue9071fqtseg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpnWE/i8C3EMg7K2tc1bgmEr4jZt1+TAl5zg4gKRe4hem0mJ8Sb3sERiV2PWXC7gupCm2z+g==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:4457:: with SMTP id t23mr11168543pgk.354.1633811376040;  Sat, 09 Oct 2021 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i2sm2966932pfa.34.2021.10.09.13.29.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Oct 2021 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>   <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <97996d9b-4b2c-adc5-5782-fbdf0cfd1813@joelhalpern.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <28864b0c-166a-6a30-98f5-4ed7e612da93@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 09:29:32 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <97996d9b-4b2c-adc5-5782-fbdf0cfd1813@joelhalpern.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 20:29:42 -0000

On 10-Oct-21 03:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Given my experience with other IEtF-related bodies, I expect that thing=
s=20
> will work more smoothly if these folks meet face to face once in a=20
> while.  this can likely be coupled with the face to face meetings that =
I=20
> sincerely hope we will be able to re-start having soon.

Certainly. What I dislike is any implication that routine decisions
*require* a meeting, whether in-person or on-line.=20

> (Side note: yes, I consider proposals that the IETF move to a pure=20
> virtual operation to be a mistake.  Note that even large open source=20
> communities that really do almost all their work remotely have=20
> consistently found it very helpful to have face to face meetings once i=
n=20
> a while, and are pushing faster than I expected to resume those.)

I concur, but that discussion is for another place.

   Brian

>=20
> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 10/9/2021 3:24 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>> What meeting? Why would the RSAB need actual meetings? Assuming they=20
>> participate in RSWG as required, most approvals should be=20
>> non-contentious & only need a short email exchange. (Of course, there =

>> may be exceptions, but "available" covers all cases.)
>>
>> Regards,
>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>
>> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, 03:58 Russ Housley, > > wrote:
>>
>>     Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of
>>     face-to-face).=C2=A0 How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>
>>     Russ
>>
>>>     On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear >>     > wrote:
>>>
>>>     Signed PGP part
>>>
>>>     Good point.
>>>
>>>     On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>     "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can=

>>>>     be done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>
>>>>     Regards,
>>>>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
>>>>     =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>
>>>>     On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear, >>>     > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but pleas=
e
>>>>         reply to this one.
>>>>
>>>>         On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>
>>>>>         Hi Martin,
>>>>>
>>>>>         On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>         3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means=
=2E  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded =
delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean s=
omething else?
>>>>>
>>>>>         This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.=C2=A0 I wou=
ld
>>>>>         rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like=

>>>>>         to simplify the text.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting
>>>>>             members.=C2=A0 Document approvals SHOULD be delayed whe=
n any
>>>>>             voting members are not present, but for no longer than
>>>>>             the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is
>>>>>             filled.
>>>>>
>>>>>         This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conc=
lude.
>>>>>
>>>>>         Eliot
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>         --=20
>>>>         Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>         Rfced-future@iab.org 
>>>>         https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>         
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>


From nobody Sat Oct  9 13:42:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D543A0867 for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kwtvKMsPBoJm for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B0503A0AA0 for ; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HRcSH5L7kz6G8Dj; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1633812143; bh=hk3rly020UjxBd8f75+zCve+inh9B6MORqplaYNqTGQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=NQHUrJXvN4aQ2btgK7LL1Zabn/Rv49zmHRIHS1G2ctK5lK4cJEP6sE5TJ59pgWvVb yCbYJK4KVtWeu8+78vQCOvLZxIqJIISOqcix+SjJLAxBAWXz37EyhOtlx+kNptYzIR vzruN7sEbmaGIYLk6dWqECAbSiD6Z3dtOshW/yaY=
X-Quarantine-ID: 
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net
Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HRcSH042jz6GWDg; Sat,  9 Oct 2021 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <78cf47fc-9549-1228-6381-d88988202524@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 16:42:21 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear 
References: <1ef72827-82bf-c1db-948d-3652442d9756@lear.ch>  <4A4A5039-B633-4C40-8BBE-08202B2F294E@csperkins.org> <42cebb91-630b-cf69-d657-a667f9f5779d@lear.ch>   <9546DFCF-7648-4273-A100-FE8DE90C8EFF@csperkins.org> <354fc12f-0e96-c8d2-906d-d51d05bce2bd@gmail.com> <6DC48243-8BFE-45C9-ACE9-4E7A4501833A@brianrosen.net> <50b674a0-ef64-460c-b97f-312d15ec028e@www.fastmail.com> <2896c805-7e5c-53e8-82ca-fc88e828bb8a@lear.ch> <2b5161a9-9286-f490-c414-af458ab6d487@lear.ch>  <5dba5853-5075-7a3e-44f0-a5f1da3891e7@lear.ch> <17058CFC-726C-462E-8341-2DD736CF2DD8@vigilsec.com>  <97996d9b-4b2c-adc5-5782-fbdf0cfd1813@joelhalpern.com> <28864b0c-166a-6a30-98f5-4ed7e612da93@gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
In-Reply-To: <28864b0c-166a-6a30-98f5-4ed7e612da93@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issues 82 and 84: Vacancy and Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 20:42:51 -0000

In terms of regular business and continuing operatins, I agree that 
there is no need for face to face meetings.

But I never read the text as assuming that.  Even before Covid, the IESG 
and IAB generally met face-to-face on 4 occasions (the 3 IETF meetings 
and one retreat).  But had calls almost every week.  The trust similarly 
met face to face 3 to four times a year.  And had monthly calls.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/9/2021 4:29 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 10-Oct-21 03:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>> Given my experience with other IEtF-related bodies, I expect that things
>> will work more smoothly if these folks meet face to face once in a
>> while.  this can likely be coupled with the face to face meetings that I
>> sincerely hope we will be able to re-start having soon.
> 
> Certainly. What I dislike is any implication that routine decisions
> *require* a meeting, whether in-person or on-line.
> 
>> (Side note: yes, I consider proposals that the IETF move to a pure
>> virtual operation to be a mistake.  Note that even large open source
>> communities that really do almost all their work remotely have
>> consistently found it very helpful to have face to face meetings once in
>> a while, and are pushing faster than I expected to resume those.)
> 
> I concur, but that discussion is for another place.
> 
>     Brian
> 
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 10/9/2021 3:24 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>> What meeting? Why would the RSAB need actual meetings? Assuming they
>>> participate in RSWG as required, most approvals should be
>>> non-contentious & only need a short email exchange. (Of course, there
>>> may be exceptions, but "available" covers all cases.)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>       Brian Carpenter
>>>       (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>
>>> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, 03:58 Russ Housley, >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>      Available is not the say as at the meeting (virtual of
>>>      face-to-face).  How about "voting members in attendance"?
>>>
>>>      Russ
>>>
>>>>      On Oct 8, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Eliot Lear >>>      > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      Signed PGP part
>>>>
>>>>      Good point.
>>>>
>>>>      On 08.10.21 09:43, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>      "present" implies physical presence. I hope most of the work can
>>>>>      be done online, mainly email. So try "available".
>>>>>
>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>          Brian Carpenter
>>>>>          (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>>>
>>>>>      On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 19:39 Eliot Lear, >>>>      > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>          I don't know how rfced-future ended up in the Bcc, but please
>>>>>          reply to this one.
>>>>>
>>>>>          On 08.10.21 08:05, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Hi Martin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          On 08.10.21 01:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>>          3.  Though I don't concretely know what Mirja's edit means.  Does it mean that the RSAB might be permitted to add small, bounded delays in order to allow all delegates to participate?  Or does it mean something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          This is the issue; I don't see it meaning that.  I would
>>>>>>          rather we go back to small bounded delays. And I would like
>>>>>>          to simplify the text.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Quorum of the RSAB shall consist of 4/5 of voting
>>>>>>              members.  Document approvals SHOULD be delayed when any
>>>>>>              voting members are not present, but for no longer than
>>>>>>              the earlier of three months or when all vacancies is
>>>>>>              filled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          This provides ample time for any reasonable process to conclude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Eliot
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>          --
>>>>>          Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>          Rfced-future@iab.org 
>>>>>          https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 11 10:56:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FBD3A0BB2 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=DujiVOH1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YVmrYcE1
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rov_ijPqJp9L for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:56:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E71543A0A6F for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD915C00F4; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:56:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:56:18 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:references:to:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=s zyxC6vY1YUZaEY1qjgpiETHWLf9/tNDwJzXzCta3xw=; b=DujiVOH1pJY+g2AOT k/TPZRjLDeLd+UiviL5zWZO5BGxeZeIXVd+SNNTkO80MuXX1lbE3CLDv1GkA+6KW Z9AmZe/H1hal9+p12xQCCm5aKCyxtUuLVC2DV5a1+SwzcXQfoMRKL0GKSWv7FvUG fE1WzAMtIf4QckvocErfejH1WJowX+zbqcjV55Ydz9FQS7o+lTT12hQk0trGtqYB o+g+E/rui4X2BoJEpRJlsombXL8CkbPSt4AMaVQ1ZYqFuAkcPhISGzm8CmU8vz4x AQZgtKlAvflR125HIo4EU6VWOhkrQgHiaArQ4LG9IybuG+SBbOSKEPQ7444dIHNQ rsLTw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=szyxC6vY1YUZaEY1qjgpiETHWLf9/tNDwJzXzCta3 xw=; b=YVmrYcE1vsNWgkteYeSxdpSecrqPAJdx3bjj6QA3PxckOGiTk2QRd6NXo WUoCYLF+YW2tNAVQhnXHwJv/mijRcFhXpGHtB5LRtyKTN2oF0oYdVXE1E49mOX9R ddTZ9aC1Ggb0DkQh0tvI9c+33U3fbz6hVvXJ1fMzFE0zQKKaAZeeAID7iNAiAwON k5BrzcA4hjRUOc3hmP646/nJ8iyR+6EI4DXN0UMwEMDK3U/p7J9gTOIG774WWD/4 J6n4Z9mDQK7sO7SszbWTTfRJvYiVYNdLAyFCApPbOkD4fHO1teoKCwfGmUAJAsoN VOeLCKvuOzt0S61+N9Wd2Gh/kQbYA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtiedguddugecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfufhfvffhjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteegtdfgfeehle etieehveeltdeiteevfefftdehkefhhfeltdelfeeltdfgieegnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:56:17 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 11:56:16 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com>
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com>
X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:56:47 -0000

Hi all,

As promised during the most recent meeting, I've posted -04 today. 
Please do note that Section 3.1.2 contains the following warning:

    OPEN ISSUES: Discussion continues regarding (1) operation of the RSAB
    in the case of vacancies (ISSUE 82) and (2) quorum requirements for
    voting by the RSAB (ISSUE 84).  The text regarding these issues is
    provisional and is subject to change.

However, this version should enable us to close many other issues.

Peter

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:53:12 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Peter Saint-Andre 


A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
Revision:	04
Title:		RFC Editor Model (Version 3)
Document date:	2021-10-11
Group:		iab
Pages:		26
URL: 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
Status: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
Htmlized: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
Diff: 
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04

Abstract:
    This document describes updated processes for defining and
    implementing policies regarding the RFC Series as a whole and thus
    specifies version 3 of RFC Editor Model.  The model defines two high-
    level tasks related to the RFC Series.  Policy definition is the
    responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces
    policy proposals that are subject to approval by the RFC Series
    Approval Board (RSAB).  Policy implementation is primarily the
    responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the ultimate
    authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF
    LLC).

    This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
    RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.

 


The IETF Secretariat



From nobody Mon Oct 11 12:16:42 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6F83A08AC for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:16:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSUrI50zNKea for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1488F3A08AA for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::3] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:3]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19BJGUqC1431151 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:16:31 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1633979792; bh=Kyx8qAbOwieSfhMnbxF0/9jmdeSpT4WRN2F1I1TKjQs=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jANS+/L//j7R+nUg3/ZlLwmftfYVjfRTWVDNUq4HfI5c0C7iOloFIHbg8T5FUShIj r/aeT7IyHHH5sDKEWqe0OJEFCF0xGSwhKupVhf2q2b9lj3FKO+ttHf2Rc5o/D07VGZ 34ITW+4dSI7CmfJkMku1JqM7twUKH7ryo8NWITlY=
Message-ID: <6a941c5b-e45b-8666-d302-cba0c63e6ea5@lear.ch>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:16:28 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com> <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------QuH2gGIarmjKG05z5WwmACrZ"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:16:41 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------QuH2gGIarmjKG05z5WwmACrZ
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------oYUif9gSPqTXOuz3awIAWVWN";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Peter Saint-Andre ,
 "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <6a941c5b-e45b-8666-d302-cba0c63e6ea5@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com>
 <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>

--------------oYUif9gSPqTXOuz3awIAWVWN
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------NucjoZuXGoz100bQVlSbp3m7"

--------------NucjoZuXGoz100bQVlSbp3m7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------NucjoZuXGoz100bQVlSbp3m7
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------NucjoZuXGoz100bQVlSbp3m7--


--------------oYUif9gSPqTXOuz3awIAWVWN--

--------------QuH2gGIarmjKG05z5WwmACrZ
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFkjYwFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPH
cwgAn1jxwxj2Y665G4oLmvtc9S5P3eG+R5a5YNquCMBq5aKWsVqH/+3ouHeoLGkI/SMt2eZjIVyJ
CM5pJWBXBu5UzNueeMMeOGpQEM10fXypx50jp0v25UXhjun/hBzHES9Ft4wMbIlhGjEL6yr+8Y2O
0e9MnnJuKxh92HiZpB3VFNx8NmbSZl079mp1RtHm7VdaKaOMobqpC01n2vnaBdF4hPDvErfrlsc8
KAz8wEa5pSbosqjck+8UGf5MZbQOtZil6F6D5v4pOEq/lA3NVAgEow45Kx38tkH+PtN9nXA3L3SO
xMK34v4q1ZVm9gDETQiBNnqNkcmg0DrBJxveVcFD2g==
=Oa/u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------QuH2gGIarmjKG05z5WwmACrZ--


From nobody Mon Oct 11 14:02:05 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02AB43A0691 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K1CDzjubcWb3 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x62a.google.com (mail-pl1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72FB03A06E7 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id f21so3347199plb.3 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MgyZuc2BzZhGuS3Et1i1cmuX8WVBer1kMTiiNySdrmw=; b=omAJ6u+0HJiPeOeTFshALrSxYUBPWiWXO3kXKrZ+3913u3aC3Q7DGycc8S3mgfQV2H +Vv/FxnlWqX0io02jgjfyosjUrwVJHEoL3IRp72gsv6WnwOTaDEbBAxarUOlriF85hKK EsFi6dU576aaj0lxwi+M346pGJQKCOjuBjckLfebIKFNO3XAQchslF4p69aONNcPjy8V Op2KoY+z8VWqph+sLfU1huxrXbj9NTmkf1k0PB75jZh44ZkEgE8GjRH68yNliBI/KMdg LWg5FO9bKwiVv9ilcRpssGTSzuV5p9wvJZTmYUuRmP84mnjOpy1Z/IX1pXaGWWoe1CmR FiYg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MgyZuc2BzZhGuS3Et1i1cmuX8WVBer1kMTiiNySdrmw=; b=Brn0BSNayVneK7c4HOZ4k0oiqnRHatQSwlsO4cKDCgOFOJ59/qnuyoc+EYQPF/U2Pm +3HW1TItF78U1Ac9Iwhs2KcFZk6s6xbKH0MVLObl2YoRvX392q74duSFXrZDOiuVrwU1 2jjJVp+Blc6AbwYbBaIFw0yQruY2F/w3rpGQGTDR6h1coTWvL7oCgLSkEN3qhhNP4JRz G7xrlD7y0RLpWmCn5IJnvG5iUKetHAYmjBrSeyB/9Z+wE9uQcn2JRDvxckXlUG+MUYdP ZKt1+6WgTYzV9OAVjOgQ9xIJlpQx3ppiSdXWo71fuPUfY8xEprzQWH0cUxUumqEFRhAv Su+A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532f5LTr8KqxYzSUR2jUTIiwECVYkxXteg1iDgiW1hJ9jwUmDCRz VzzgNcJUslU5nUrtBGaqC/tgDlpgtvoC8w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxc6vITjyWkGU60Cbo2EILsa7JBhuawFAWbJfHfQZoY0dWwJ/DMLVZUh6NoGZo6y3yK4xkRjQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1d85:: with SMTP id pf5mr1408160pjb.64.1633986117376;  Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k22sm8607569pfi.149.2021.10.11.14.01.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com> <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <91777598-28b8-052b-0b2c-a2ab059124bf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:01:52 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:02:03 -0000

Hi Peter,

IMHO, great job, thanks, I think we are almost done.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 12-Oct-21 06:56, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> As promised during the most recent meeting, I've posted -04 today. 
> Please do note that Section 3.1.2 contains the following warning:
> 
>     OPEN ISSUES: Discussion continues regarding (1) operation of the RSAB
>     in the case of vacancies (ISSUE 82) and (2) quorum requirements for
>     voting by the RSAB (ISSUE 84).  The text regarding these issues is
>     provisional and is subject to change.
> 
> However, this version should enable us to close many other issues.
> 
> Peter
> 
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:53:12 -0700
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: Peter Saint-Andre 
> 
> 
> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the
> IETF repository.
> 
> Name:		draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Revision:	04
> Title:		RFC Editor Model (Version 3)
> Document date:	2021-10-11
> Group:		iab
> Pages:		26
> URL: 
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
> Status: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
> Htmlized: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Diff: 
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04
> 
> Abstract:
>     This document describes updated processes for defining and
>     implementing policies regarding the RFC Series as a whole and thus
>     specifies version 3 of RFC Editor Model.  The model defines two high-
>     level tasks related to the RFC Series.  Policy definition is the
>     responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces
>     policy proposals that are subject to approval by the RFC Series
>     Approval Board (RSAB).  Policy implementation is primarily the
>     responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the ultimate
>     authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF
>     LLC).
> 
>     This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
>     RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> The IETF Secretariat
> 
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 11 14:50:49 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B323A0CF5 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=ByWU6Gfd; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=c7VvTfvr
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z27ewf3rU740 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462B03A0CEC for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24FA85C0139; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:50:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:50:38 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:from:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=an7jYf41vy09pSHfI6zWWS1Wfj VQ5Wv6PYdxbh4eqLY=; b=ByWU6GfdBSnn2vQYfdMKCHIxTsNdG+PngWqjJMFlw4 9IBffsXZUrFgzkuR3xB50aVn2ZLL887M9EdjJkdqjs7XkcZoXZWvXRPzkhtb7uuO sqsVRfbEkUaJ4jlQ4ffgedlJHq25q1+PuRnYlKikEH3DsPeWpBqu8Nd2KpslI+DQ EqA3PEPAdv9p3/G2IHYXEb+Gs/eyiVT0o55Wltf9GC1Pyyo+nowiwqIgxVvR2IrA aygOLwLHp+vp57l+wI9bntn2O1OdIkEwVyGTPLVh4/bPxSKFr1rL1zVNvhI06uyh Wzu66TmbDCfIHA2Ac9V3Q9OWX59OBj33tofc958sohcQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=an7jYf 41vy09pSHfI6zWWS1WfjVQ5Wv6PYdxbh4eqLY=; b=c7VvTfvrdNuH4FulVfe0AD ++IJo54tMDmlWijEt3+eXMdTBYGN8cBNb47/mlEgwC79TPBV7dIPSb1HFGC1NNVp QJJRWnPLaWLSfVktvZqD/MRe4gptCJ9w3lzOiykhqdbnni5CCSFgtxLfOXd0PiCR VDwFGFVWmHrMRtltmj6VcmghOp1J/BWWAIJ2vRBio2K+NSDX4q/Aq+CTQyNdinfP 56SbLmQBEXHgdXUyf/3Tq9e6OQOdkAR5yL+fh8hOngQxaEo0IhS81UvBDZCPpBuG awli4YMoYcp4l/F3jslsQbINrEeR7GQ6XYGRxW4dpC401jwso4TIJmjusTPsLXNQ ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfvhffutgfgsehtjeertd dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgv rhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefteelkeevgefghefgfe egiedutefggedutdejleehudevhfelueejgfegffetueenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrd himh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:50:37 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:50:33 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:50:46 -0000

In the interest of making progress, I suggest that we split issue 82 
(RSAB vacancies) and issue 84 (RSAB quorum) into two separate threads.

I suspect that the vacancy issue is more tractable, so here's a start.

Based on our last meeting, I proposed the following text regarding 
vacancies:

###

In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows:

* Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by
   the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have
   been filled.
* Activities related to implementation of policies already defined
   shall continue as normal.

Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new
policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed.

###

Since then, discussion on list has identified several aspects of note:

(1) although policy documents are not time-sensitive, it might not be 
reasonable to delay their approval indefinitely

(2) a vacancy of the RSCE might be acceptable (since that role could 
take longer to fill than the stream representatives)

(3) the appointing bodies should be able to fill vacancies (other than 
the RSCE) quickly enough to prevent indefinite delays

Therefore I'd like to propose the following text (the last two sentences 
are already in -04):

###

    In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
    the RSAB shall operate as follows:

    * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
      be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
      maximum of 6 months.
    * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
      shall continue as normal.

    Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
    times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
    on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
    incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
    responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
    IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

###

Is this something we can live with?

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 11 14:53:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53CF3A0DB5 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:52:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=MeDdJQxq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=cBj1yrID
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9UzfVZPcvwBJ for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82D3A3A0D6A for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E645C0064; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:52:49 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=e zri5Ef57/xg+InJ3Slxuvk9gkJRMpXyqm6M6CeIPBw=; b=MeDdJQxqcnCBIG+NO PJkaDAj1pOqGTDpp8i9GpwvJmqneWedWR3BsLMCDNV87s9RxxuDi/8ziWVO/0Z+w KlmnNZACIFbbKU841g+YEaUo0GuOpzDufnA7WF22hSmK0tLgCcRJSMiNgw6jSrhO oL/OxKpXOheiOM3eZ7O/TwHL7lQBE7ernz4OlyPbVtlQ0A1YuOeDIJt2WAIKcukO CXSK3xwEzedcG2/3JKoe7eLjyK5Q8WO4a2geB1McEfoNpBn2ae3csQUJmn28hLMV rqfgDtqlFdfW7zao3qobtyTik/xXkE1aICepXsKbPzWuFdPwwfLr0lWCPcctSHX6 OWmVA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ezri5Ef57/xg+InJ3Slxuvk9gkJRMpXyqm6M6CeIP Bw=; b=cBj1yrID5qjvzdXNXlzCZn+dhWf0XLGIiEGzGXmdNua2+VPR4HsE0+AWf Oprrq5IlTZvDk4ufRBTyG93OJe7VOMgHuFFGEu3N6gUaCEHlCIFD41PVHVDFN7qL hQ+hnKVLGNfSGSZhHREUMdKv+oosXKqBiCWVHxxFS8abyrz+sFkThT7FlkWmD42X OsC9G3kRVVChlxtiOYUuOevtZFI1jng1VxhEIIazXYkqVO+KIQ7tNvD5ZKz+5khg lJCxC42+alfzeuG2w+BAoK61hDcrYjeQrrdHrCa2IvuESREtqabjw6miDX2x8tuf OYocX+9BRfcBtGYdSX3H9LQjB/49w==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvdevtdeuffeiveelgeegueehieeiuedvfedtuedtuddvieeh geehkeehuddtheeunecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvght vghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:52:48 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com> <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im> <91777598-28b8-052b-0b2c-a2ab059124bf@gmail.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <91777598-28b8-052b-0b2c-a2ab059124bf@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:53:02 -0000

Thanks, Brian. Let's figure out how to resolve the vacancy and quorum 
issues. I just posted about the former to get us started.

On 10/11/21 3:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> IMHO, great job, thanks, I think we are almost done.
> 
> Regards
>     Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 12-Oct-21 06:56, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> As promised during the most recent meeting, I've posted -04 today.
>> Please do note that Section 3.1.2 contains the following warning:
>>
>>      OPEN ISSUES: Discussion continues regarding (1) operation of the RSAB
>>      in the case of vacancies (ISSUE 82) and (2) quorum requirements for
>>      voting by the RSAB (ISSUE 84).  The text regarding these issues is
>>      provisional and is subject to change.
>>
>> However, this version should enable us to close many other issues.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
>> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:53:12 -0700
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> To: Peter Saint-Andre 
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:		draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>> Revision:	04
>> Title:		RFC Editor Model (Version 3)
>> Document date:	2021-10-11
>> Group:		iab
>> Pages:		26
>> URL:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
>> Status:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
>> Htmlized:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>> Diff:
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04
>>
>> Abstract:
>>      This document describes updated processes for defining and
>>      implementing policies regarding the RFC Series as a whole and thus
>>      specifies version 3 of RFC Editor Model.  The model defines two high-
>>      level tasks related to the RFC Series.  Policy definition is the
>>      responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces
>>      policy proposals that are subject to approval by the RFC Series
>>      Approval Board (RSAB).  Policy implementation is primarily the
>>      responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the ultimate
>>      authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF
>>      LLC).
>>
>>      This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
>>      RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.
>>
>>   
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>>


From nobody Mon Oct 11 15:07:32 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6EB3A0DDA for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LY8Xys5HK31X for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A8473A0DCB for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id g5so9155365plg.1 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Nb1FAnEqBdENpuPZVNGD0IsdwsC6hdztC5bIPuoMISE=; b=Z/wjvC2FmORl3G1NsdxosLn0fdo7mn0y2AMDSElYBcU3LteRpz0o24/pQ+7mAngdHe 6ZRlZ14R/PIRIFJiKYw4I+Ks5xzMKtK7Ip9JRyByzLmw3xsvsMt21yPjSZqyKZ7pHAxs OubAI5h7ArG99U+HvN8PMGjVODSjjZYg+5OxqM8Fh6ntR4o6k3OkZ0Rj45g+5i5cQH3O pwGbKvM6lp2TZbjOZUBgaOmu+fSwpAT/4oP0f9oWFIZSHK+MsASeMBnJBugLG7cwPb3z fKcPnV7t+0JD/acQ1zyA1IK7Gvs9VxpL9eiNDAjEki2zDaCju/bK1vK1j3cuxSeNKSb2 w5jA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Nb1FAnEqBdENpuPZVNGD0IsdwsC6hdztC5bIPuoMISE=; b=01Up9XjuYDqtXvM53wuCjxxC+8J4B0liHeEzfBwJoA0jeLt2T8NKcaJa8m71M/ysc4 xLXbiMp33p3oOZJS9U20ZMQuAFbbJQwXYITATvD588EUPOqf5ElLwAVn6Zb4WTQSnL2I SWXURaZeDBYB1QiB7fmN27FrAPqh6nmZ7+ja3IP9Cb0JRT/lS/45eL9NGh+qaY7I3jta 9BPPAueI+V31r1dv7ltNmXWDn/rt+iVHtV+njmGYAeQsdD+zYGBiam4BN/OF0Fk6cEVA h3+ZRg+cTCVGvKtJOEYeamVeFQd3q64moczKWeuRqYD3R3lWOsKhkrqh+u8FryfE1rUV 6Y5A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530+ibrTQtXGKNFvGv84TWjjtHx8lyl0tR2Ay3DWUqLipgAjXRvf uhw+njkgCR5/9Ey1V8T7P8IOk0nnrdOR3g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxn70crpvZ5VARLxDHCZAW0VXu4ylVgXCswFKnykAL421YbgOSkN00YnfXiWOPiNr14XVZBuQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9b95:b0:13e:c43:2b57 with SMTP id y21-20020a1709029b9500b0013e0c432b57mr27132417plp.42.1633990044567;  Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u17sm392695pjn.30.2021.10.11.15.07.22 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <6c03fbc6-f437-13d8-0597-78d6905ae486@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:07:19 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:07:30 -0000

+1 to separating the issues. My comments below:
On 12-Oct-21 10:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> In the interest of making progress, I suggest that we split issue 82 
> (RSAB vacancies) and issue 84 (RSAB quorum) into two separate threads.
> 
> I suspect that the vacancy issue is more tractable, so here's a start.
> 
> Based on our last meeting, I proposed the following text regarding 
> vacancies:
> 
> ###
> 
> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows:
> 
> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by
>    the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have
>    been filled.
> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined
>    shall continue as normal.
> 
> Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new
> policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed.
> 
> ###
> 
> Since then, discussion on list has identified several aspects of note:
> 
> (1) although policy documents are not time-sensitive, it might not be 
> reasonable to delay their approval indefinitely
> 
> (2) a vacancy of the RSCE might be acceptable (since that role could 
> take longer to fill than the stream representatives)
> 
> (3) the appointing bodies should be able to fill vacancies (other than 
> the RSCE) quickly enough to prevent indefinite delays
> 
> Therefore I'd like to propose the following text (the last two sentences 
> are already in -04):
> 
> ###
> 
>     In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
>     the RSAB shall operate as follows:
> 
>     * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>       be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>       maximum of 6 months.
>     * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>       shall continue as normal.
> 
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
>     times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
>     on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>     incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>     responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>     IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> 
> ###
> 
> Is this something we can live with?

I really think 6 months is too long. Don't tell me we can't appoint acting replacements in less than 3 months - that's already a *long* time.

And can we really apply this rule to the RSCE? How would it work in practice? Would the LLC have to have a candidate on standby?

   Brian


From nobody Mon Oct 11 15:10:36 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F293A0DF4 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:10:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=tWCkGhWk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FCA+fQfn
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M9gzjxGudWLD for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DB713A0DEC for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0350C5C0117; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:10:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:10:28 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=I FH+qrb4WuAiYLaVIo5vm5st5MvR8jNe1GVNpRv28qU=; b=tWCkGhWki1pkucGV6 xDtINYM5VlZU/6+s8IbXJOQ+AxIMQoT9JljwLReZvp4bJSh5B3vGRbRMX+qeDa17 6D8X/KnHaEeQHMz8mWx1SfMSKqcHGT2w9gxXH9R7TH+d+x8ch7lde19WzYDpD6aB mZvZK/FoqIWFf3IH+9pvUFvPW5pJyGpXlXWr/XhwI6bqQSIdESQzNELeoJuxBr21 cZWRgRHS09hK5LkraLMYGDUkRGSE998QHv/XI163IOz1FswVPPbW5q7h4vA4Lwsq MYQGmsr0HSgjfK3K1H65/qn6pnIJO5T80Bgljsd3lJYpAH2pO0pWT2PXfhgBGb5k PklxA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=IFH+qrb4WuAiYLaVIo5vm5st5MvR8jNe1GVNpRv28 qU=; b=FCA+fQfnnw2EFVdk+uUTNh5uGCZNpDzVkhJ5DXq+hfwfGL80+3h7Clpzm 7rKOUckWH+9HQ/xhkHZGZRZcvs03nd9S6dWglmihnCmS31arsqgC/MozcPjABfY2 Smh6mwVS0gENUSSG9eLiELkVeHxLwU4+BHm9hnmMCFr4Sn2UvDwwS0qbXl25PjMy MKrbxvYjb+u7HiNmpmoSdpB2BIdPoyc0ZnzkMrNNIqTtA90b6Jj4aGjB9qB7WpVL W/kehnlSwfiv6AijRALJowQtEbHhlDHZAiFWlO/NTyd4Fk04C8x+Z+zJbttJNqT5 2IwlGngktsVLEXAAN802kvJGytnrQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedgtdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:10:27 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <7e2f6ab5-9eda-0842-626f-47d9cad091a7@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:10:23 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> <6c03fbc6-f437-13d8-0597-78d6905ae486@gmail.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <6c03fbc6-f437-13d8-0597-78d6905ae486@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:10:34 -0000

On 10/11/21 4:07 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> +1 to separating the issues. My comments below:
> On 12-Oct-21 10:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> In the interest of making progress, I suggest that we split issue 82
>> (RSAB vacancies) and issue 84 (RSAB quorum) into two separate threads.
>>
>> I suspect that the vacancy issue is more tractable, so here's a start.
>>
>> Based on our last meeting, I proposed the following text regarding
>> vacancies:
>>
>> ###
>>
>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>>
>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by
>>     the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have
>>     been filled.
>> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined
>>     shall continue as normal.
>>
>> Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new
>> policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed.
>>
>> ###
>>
>> Since then, discussion on list has identified several aspects of note:
>>
>> (1) although policy documents are not time-sensitive, it might not be
>> reasonable to delay their approval indefinitely
>>
>> (2) a vacancy of the RSCE might be acceptable (since that role could
>> take longer to fill than the stream representatives)
>>
>> (3) the appointing bodies should be able to fill vacancies (other than
>> the RSCE) quickly enough to prevent indefinite delays
>>
>> Therefore I'd like to propose the following text (the last two sentences
>> are already in -04):
>>
>> ###
>>
>>      In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
>>      the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>>
>>      * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>>        be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>>        maximum of 6 months.
>>      * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>>        shall continue as normal.
>>
>>      Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
>>      times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
>>      on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>
>> ###
>>
>> Is this something we can live with?
> 
> I really think 6 months is too long. Don't tell me we can't appoint acting replacements in less than 3 months - that's already a *long* time.

I almost wrote "X" months. Perhaps 2 or 3 is better.

> And can we really apply this rule to the RSCE? How would it work in practice? Would the LLC have to have a candidate on standby?

I'm suggesting that we NOT apply this rule to the RSCE ("In the case of 
vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE...").

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 11 15:27:48 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0543F3A0E84 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:27:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9BbpnX-5-FF for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 892123A103D for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id w14so12269805pll.2 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lRK3B6oQUWJC3+vT8hXmssblbdgAW/PcuvUfWwbz43g=; b=lkScxya5MxKx6m9p245iS9VzAnDYdXI62bc3rhkZVJ7v0pvDXUDgdfquBKPjfIgJkk 37wXm57BNCY3RP2QRkgyaReNN2+yU7StJiYEgzu9OkjX8XEKaZ5rNDUvEern/Qm0L6EF X0i2h8aX9Ikz38BWxHZ+F/I3np7+zV/kzFpFgCymwAFEWU04UaabdO+ib5Jugrbe9ii4 8rAD4IkZceI0JLf8dcy7NWVaRklCuMgg3IAnNCpi+lHECgsl+1YL7gaSHQES08yRtzMQ BrizHMxZ848LBpGQa7nOwrETHH1Be7fREl/4tbbbw8pGeTUVQwGfFXt8T4lQpb3GeI6e FccA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lRK3B6oQUWJC3+vT8hXmssblbdgAW/PcuvUfWwbz43g=; b=aIehLNe+75kf4QAZnmvArw/Gs4oCRPvOlGL6lhPsBf4UzMo3qUmoaz4r1Y6zZ3r4fk FGBlJVb5NvnLKpZYkAm8DCmqZ97JS6pkrpya3UxNorSs8nrfFLi8vQhBE8f4KttJrIXj 2exRtjndKSpETnABEJaeuZqKbh9Tbezmv/4lRKak3iQO19Lz+W3ueYrYcs4N4/Ib4zXZ Ik7ZUjyMuGVJtCMWvKx9qTJX1iffBfJIg3C3I3kmzpBsNrmLSTMGp6qgk3/iPuwhCJPa 2AfvE6PKeoIAkAdfpl1P8N4DMdxxS/ibiKfrCE3J7LKaOQyO2tY69aCaw5yM18s7RLww oA/A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hzjMgYA4Ifxjx1HZyhL/+VKMsRYcecynNmYErAJfROju2aJnp 31x3vm6xkww0bPlwoxyFQLAG7oBK/iWytg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyygES4ozO7T3MGWwtkFksRjwYSZA6KxN19ksKKnynvjjWHAOrFJB1aJGUR2NyHOV7ZUSlMyA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4483:: with SMTP id t3mr1882037pjg.44.1633991235389;  Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a13sm9171671pgn.81.2021.10.11.15.27.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> <6c03fbc6-f437-13d8-0597-78d6905ae486@gmail.com> <7e2f6ab5-9eda-0842-626f-47d9cad091a7@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:27:10 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <7e2f6ab5-9eda-0842-626f-47d9cad091a7@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:27:47 -0000

On 12-Oct-21 11:10, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/11/21 4:07 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> +1 to separating the issues. My comments below:
>> On 12-Oct-21 10:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> In the interest of making progress, I suggest that we split issue 82
>>> (RSAB vacancies) and issue 84 (RSAB quorum) into two separate threads.
>>>
>>> I suspect that the vacancy issue is more tractable, so here's a start.
>>>
>>> Based on our last meeting, I proposed the following text regarding
>>> vacancies:
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>> In the case of vacancies, the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>>>
>>> * Voting on approval of policy definition documents produced by
>>>     the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have
>>>     been filled.
>>> * Activities related to implementation of policies already defined
>>>     shall continue as normal.
>>>
>>> Because vacancies effectively prevent the RSAB from approving new
>>> policy changes, such vacancies should be filled with all due speed.
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>> Since then, discussion on list has identified several aspects of note:
>>>
>>> (1) although policy documents are not time-sensitive, it might not be
>>> reasonable to delay their approval indefinitely
>>>
>>> (2) a vacancy of the RSCE might be acceptable (since that role could
>>> take longer to fill than the stream representatives)
>>>
>>> (3) the appointing bodies should be able to fill vacancies (other than
>>> the RSCE) quickly enough to prevent indefinite delays
>>>
>>> Therefore I'd like to propose the following text (the last two sentences
>>> are already in -04):
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>>      In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
>>>      the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>>>
>>>      * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>>>        be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>>>        maximum of 6 months.
>>>      * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>>>        shall continue as normal.
>>>
>>>      Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
>>>      times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
>>>      on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>> Is this something we can live with?
>>
>> I really think 6 months is too long. Don't tell me we can't appoint acting replacements in less than 3 months - that's already a *long* time.
> 
> I almost wrote "X" months. Perhaps 2 or 3 is better.
> 
>> And can we really apply this rule to the RSCE? How would it work in practice? Would the LLC have to have a candidate on standby?
> 
> I'm suggesting that we NOT apply this rule to the RSCE ("In the case of 
> vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE...").

Oh, sorry, I missed that. Then my only concern is the 6 months. I could live with 3.

Thanks,
   Brian


From nobody Mon Oct 11 17:03:12 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18803A120D for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:03:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=VMGlwsh9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=NK5JeZca
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5hOG06KItFZA for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6183A3A1213 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4813200974 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:03:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:03:03 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=GY+xKinA6psPQ7I9B3AIPShms4O6iks 2jYFLsXf4YSw=; b=VMGlwsh9XeuGwce0e0/w9NAO3LU35R5hc9pe5d9gOAAf2Uf CuHD3SZ8PykT3UjJyxxMsUxW5D2rAOoQhIBUKfLa4duUHLx52CMKoQx7y2ULywHi XS2Uyk3iG7YFGmSg5F2iEgUvxF7g8eABy/rb26qwAEUQRmXkABz0SqtFdmj0NGDm cBlbVv/DpKing2eDCSVKQOqiAeCuzPFjvPIAgjwdDrTrlO0AVkKR4PApeVkcwFV/ mzRZX7LhuUb/O4rV1aNBUnqziSbEcjqRD7ZgJKsGExvEc3dy+T8Bi6hhfUGj7Vh9 GpHymEHv2gx7ThSLZZtoJ3qx5ayiydPByofy9/Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=GY+xKi nA6psPQ7I9B3AIPShms4O6iks2jYFLsXf4YSw=; b=NK5JeZcaX4q5uElw4cObl9 0JVdgr6+GaGdQy489ytAIibzcBJubB9apvQvGGVFJjFQVMDPhQ8Yn55MTHab37sg 5NO+UAo43Gp/bfvtgBjKlQn8tOFWhtxTOJFLt9iMvr3Alk1cVFzqEhUuBNQu5yjj uyx+o+xwrKy+czuE/dJsRU2jlvcyQYEfHF07G4BFFCdomo5N7kTNLLvR88bEOoze //6vO2itWka1bS9ktzhugNQX4R9x01bedDxzW9DhnWG+46mb61VibMaolQHDNhc9 /8R+gy3He3eiKJ8qgy+HG6p4YrQvpxbpsiuk9roDpo3tscrH0ER76CLP1edcZLMQ ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedgvdelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefke evhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeegffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id AF37B3C0246; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:03:02 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1345-g8441cd7852-fm-20211006.001-g8441cd78
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: 
In-Reply-To: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:02:42 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:03:11 -0000

I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if it comes to that.

On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>     [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>     incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>     responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>     IRTF chair and ISE respectively.

Minor grammatical ambiguity here.  The "this" here could be read in one of two ways:

1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.

2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.

I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:

> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.


From nobody Mon Oct 11 17:08:20 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912D83A1247 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:08:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=i2Y+TMZA; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=lpCSmtvx
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UhCt5yNk_rQj for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F7E63A123E for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C645C01A9; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:08:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:08:12 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=w l4ayoT5CVFa7Pnt28snmagfqLOJ2JMTkJLU14242WE=; b=i2Y+TMZAGu1Okl+kv 8f6blokmM9ozXqixxAK9llJiEyp5d2nVDBnZK26M+/E1qk1NiS+65syFiLuuXC4n 6BdHBqhReeKjICeFlOiXaciKCkf2s25Ng2IVjtU2HyQ9zw348+wjgcTaBOUfgGf8 bACuYc2AxWETq6xL2HIcsV8TpQlXUu7ANYgAQiRV0F9M4OhlNgw+E9JjZq4aU0jZ MNhPMyLtyiB+u9cB+hnGBXTx/lOxX8dwkPC+U4zMpRgnLM002ci1dTjaGeEQmlWF m4NKHMQ8aEI3o6KAZb6NsDcRFnZPna7RmgwIzgmqjVMz9lm+OrMulC4E+KOfjivB tM7nQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=wl4ayoT5CVFa7Pnt28snmagfqLOJ2JMTkJLU14242 WE=; b=lpCSmtvxWp0MgLnd/cgYUvIyzRi7DmH1eTp5DszaQqknrLh6HGeZPvQRF B+TfVAbm/aIhWzhKPph7d7NBCWjtRAwP0TjCJbUaaGhJF5kuBF5BF623PePXxfwP cC0laUulNGZYwGNBMi1ebaLB1/wMksvSXPMHe2m4tXjQ7h3X4feDxhRgI+TA6UJA yGwbB9Xzkp1wyzIFnqoTxAtaROCzpHLUzY2XJUKdfW2hUogyDUomQOSZqslyCxNn jwPhwl5RwioDhgPM8Q2R7RgG94WRTJBNMthfCVO6LTQ3mowvBRld1M8i14Z1NAtI IIEnOrYzynPVYLjEwRp0DclVNLKdg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedgfedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:08:12 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <06448d2b-aebc-ed9c-ec72-e8f767490fe9@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:08:11 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:08:19 -0000

On 10/11/21 6:02 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if it comes to that.

With my editor hat on I have no preference - I was merely positing a 
value that we could discuss. (Personally, I'd agree that 3 seems more 
reasonable.)

> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>      [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> 
> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.  The "this" here could be read in one of two ways:
> 
> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.
> 
> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.
> 
> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:
> 
>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.

Yes, that's better.

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 11 17:34:02 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A4C3A1330 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:34:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ssCCoxxQCt6V for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:33:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400100.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD4773A1331 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:33:56 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=amMzUhGNlgUCaHOO93epztQImKoQhFtDtcNJxYuUENAUyoylytanYdfZdzc2XLlOn3TEBUv9PYrI62wY6LrLTsMaGtqVtuGO1Klue4Zd8+wHejaplBZ7ooCyeNxxBLX8mGWa8XbcKFb/ChVBsTRzzmsL5slMk5DJY4SkHk44BcQkaIIF5UmbY3Hz7ti7c53jHy/XMvoKraXIL5TQzNT+gOl9pvC8V7qPS+WNtT0yGiuwvr0sCDsx2U18VtVE7s/iMewIiiUsTNggHF9bFAahAIGkU5Sn3xmIONdSXvcyPjbo/SBDm+fnKGKTM4c52h7YJko02D+ZOj2HMbZ/7heclQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=/UEl2maouwvkTCMe8ePe7RzJdcE2yDTG6dYAO+A7wqw=; b=dTgx6+c/eCh08Sa8EhO6Icmf6uKl/vZ2Vloxmt9xx5s1vW4piCXwn/OyTnJHDsIElu/6RznxKhmeH9eL+YUy1QVkvnzv6mAnJhmyVAebPENvkT8AaujtCsIEKL0aQx5rRYiOGD42FnxzkPeB356+WjdVqhSx/EBvD1OG1NNnseBH+nMrJGOsGWo1IrUrdTHmrAyA6/ws7qcVj3oyKcZ7t3QwIc0I5z9xRXadQByXTRmCoTI/fX0DTT4qGIwAmSk5jbehGiSZQjTUvj/RDTzx7BRH5dZr4OpavT0Lx4c+UfjT/PPOiAoiRKdozpiGqvwD/jYzFGUAl1YNsH0CaWS55Q==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=/UEl2maouwvkTCMe8ePe7RzJdcE2yDTG6dYAO+A7wqw=; b=LwqFK6f1lHA82RwyJSIbHo80iQUVOQMZtNK6h1Rnc1L+szOyBPKebWoM8GU7W+U8yJd26urGyIt0NDuV9vlyRQ2V1selc+EMw8S5VrB2wbLxenXxeREXOacO1/+4ahELawBsD/8K59TNs0fO5VDpVOIa9Y5p884ISrnbBkAQdv4=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TY2PR01MB2489.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:6f::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.24; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:33:53 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4587.025; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:33:53 +0000
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> 
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:33:52 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TY2PR04CA0020.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:f6::32) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.7] (222.151.4.60) by TY2PR04CA0020.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:f6::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.21 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:33:53 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9e028a44-33bf-4db1-b30f-08d98d17f7d2
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TY2PR01MB2489:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(396003)(346002)(366004)(136003)(376002)(39850400004)(53546011)(786003)(5660300002)(508600001)(956004)(66946007)(2616005)(38350700002)(38100700002)(6486002)(86362001)(66556008)(16576012)(4001150100001)(66476007)(316002)(8676002)(26005)(31696002)(2906002)(31686004)(52116002)(36916002)(8936002)(186003)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?cHNzMnh1RmkzQ25lQmlobE9nQVlPMlhDcUhld3hla2xSbXgweGVrTHhDRHdH?= =?utf-8?B?UkE4SmlwNTU0dWdCT1plOXZROTBYdWhVUUg1cm95L1Y4aHQ3b2NkM0dybFlx?= =?utf-8?B?SXdpSHFjdjNWWHRhVFpRTTNyMk4vT2Z4TkJ6aWtwUG5XSWtWZFIvbzFGaGFX?= =?utf-8?B?SXBQUVNOVjVuUEMyMlN3OGI2RHpHaHRic1RpMllndzdFNnhqNGlzSTJzeTY2?= =?utf-8?B?bDVtZFRTMG0xekNwOFFtbWhaNzYzbEZPR3JLUzAvWkZSbUJWcFlTbVdUamt6?= =?utf-8?B?emJqdWJBKzhrSXlkOUR0TW1nSTh6SHR6TVZDZTVVRHBNSngxSG5MMUdtK3Fw?= =?utf-8?B?MHJwaXAyN1k1K0tIbmFJUGgwQjlTZ3B6RSttWjFUMGRnSUxWa3RZU2UxUm9L?= =?utf-8?B?TldEWVk5RS9XNGo2QVNDNFEvNTZPTzFFUElxMkhFcGdTbWZJb3ZqMjZTN2Zp?= =?utf-8?B?NGNvRXBkZGlBTXhwRExZaERYQWlhWDM0SHFVTjR6NS9IMmMvdjJuUFU1LytY?= =?utf-8?B?ZGZVcUk3M2ZUZmU2ODhxVXdtd1Bkc3M3QjMwV2d2cnJRZHlEaXlNV2gyOGdG?= =?utf-8?B?UFAzR2xaT2ZzcWc4aE95b29McCsyamMwejdEZUo0VmRuR1o0bWVtaldvUjJ4?= =?utf-8?B?WWtncTRUME9VVzZ3SVdzQ1pDc1k3ZjJiekNxUDZLL0RTUnIvU2NKMFdmSFNL?= =?utf-8?B?Y1RvWUdHWEVrdnB2MmdEcE4rL1NaQ1F0NkZ5aWhoSlFGNEtacDdGWlhvNVBv?= =?utf-8?B?dlZVZW1rS0FOT01kcVhZRjdHTU5aa1VTQmZ2bkp2VFIvdnhzdWJmVWs5amtw?= =?utf-8?B?UXZwTlFwdTlRbmorblhTL25KdFZ5cmpmUGt5MlZxZE5zQ0doU0tseFVLK0la?= =?utf-8?B?cFpiRlJOUERhWi9UZ3JZS2N6RzJhZ09OYWV1K3A2Rnc5SEV3MkZQa0EyZW5Z?= =?utf-8?B?ZFYxRWYyZEF0OE9CU3l2dHVYcDhsKy9kK2pYYUhDdkM2WlhJWUlJeEJOZmFy?= =?utf-8?B?V0owOHVkRUZjRkxYK3V2RmtvOWRBaDRvcWQ3ZjZ0NTVNOHdwZkV5aDF3WDdv?= =?utf-8?B?TFJScHVDSTNXTHY5MFZaYmx3MGl2UTJmR2dwSU5YSG1JbGNNNFR2bHo5ekRp?= =?utf-8?B?QWlQbkdleU4zaVlpVVMwYVY0aEhHbE1ENEhodjE1TTlvdWhZSmg4dTNZOTI0?= =?utf-8?B?M0tmemJLZ0xTZjdPTnMzQzZsdm4xakFrRUkxaVdQWEYwTmY2UmxJSlcrN253?= =?utf-8?B?SFVrc010bWJEdUF5eG9xR1FSeGxwZEU0QWRxNjJNMzQzdkhzalg2c2pVek5s?= =?utf-8?B?dktCT2lYZ0szcGNhTngxbFp4ZnBjYklkR05Tbi9OUEV1WDdqMXMzUCtzZE5h?= =?utf-8?B?UDVLdDhHYlE1djNCMnFKdWlPLythQkFYL0taTHNwZUJCYkVPSFZZMUhmbGVZ?= =?utf-8?B?bFNzSDVpRzFjOGx5OWNDMUFSNkFJU3I4Sk1TbWdadm1KWEh5L3lqcVN4ZHI5?= =?utf-8?B?Rk0zelNxOTZDZG5SZUllM3AwL1pVNTdpUW5RUlQ4R0t0VUhYSmQycGlCdzRI?= =?utf-8?B?c0E0VkN6ZE1nTGVhNmJldG5kWlFzQUJrN2pQL2NvaUcvQkNwL2N2enFGS3lk?= =?utf-8?B?T1M2amRxRUtJNW91MWFtdml5cElmaXNobkJJcnZFRXVXWkZjWGtpSTd0K0xI?= =?utf-8?B?K3Mxa1E5eEJjZHp3b3BDMktlNWdUSkRhRkhnQ29qbS94Tm5VcEhTUTBSZTFO?= =?utf-8?Q?kXZKXRHzevxL+5AUgwcXr0qPTtvNPRyjeWuAmXR?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9e028a44-33bf-4db1-b30f-08d98d17f7d2
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2021 00:33:53.2773 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 1MetTX+07hU3ausIdkTVaFlrXUqT+vEJ4dTkjjpWTjNxXgvg9ZXMP3EVAPkZTqhILH0O3dC/evD5u54tlH2QWQ==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY2PR01MB2489
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:34:01 -0000

On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:
> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if it comes to that.

Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a 
temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be enough, 
even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.

> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>      [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> 
> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.  The "this" here could be read in one of two ways:
> 
> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.
> 
> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.
> 
> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:
> 
>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.
> 

I'd go one step further and add "temporary", to make it crystal clear:

In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise 
unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the 
IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a temporary delegate.

Regards,   Martin.


From nobody Mon Oct 11 18:33:36 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0963A0AE2 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=fStyCBFw; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=EPyZzn1w
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oHxx8Ft5qCO9 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95D123A0AE7 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69DA5C0106; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:33:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:33:26 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=O yf2s3V3ykjqwR9eP9WMDmSkHEPouPpM8G80G1+uV4E=; b=fStyCBFwdvW+9kYrg vyJKEYVirze3rkazKY2LEwFnyXpQCdnQKvlGdxUUT9nJS2JZCOrQdOZZQK3O+yZI b2EMNJMIDkNYQkFERKposDhekHxxH1WvmW9btk9HzRTV84mkM7jqBFYWTrT79H4i RApSh3uaX+GYQhn2iAz3W1WENbwHv10DYjzCGA8gvnzgAETvZ2x0D/uvaN0mKEZO DCtysBh3xxPNwQzqT5Pkq2jJHoLtzoc8iuvXTOmIqbT+16HFiXhNRAxuCELVyeiz kgYWky1QlW6TkamGYCBh8gR/vU+NfkE8c6JI/utoaomFf9Sl89hWSO9D74KKAYwZ 9qkNw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Oyf2s3V3ykjqwR9eP9WMDmSkHEPouPpM8G80G1+uV 4E=; b=EPyZzn1wuCULXDfzvIwkRmgBfSk/hyjLfLBu5S3Pvz9b2USbbO13tIHl7 7RIpckIiI2v0LyjNnjVhXeOE7RGaI/fvqJoSA4u06kL+YMY7g/6gjJzH2vQHOLRa HinJk+yONE7GTC6BZ+AvHczwt130Dcd61cv9DTu4uC99olaRtmuSCUBBQXove4HP Gg1gxbhqOzQ1fAGYXxEcCsZIyC5iNlRuoz9m4W6PqNUl783OtGDDRHYLjIUZKZ4p a7m1Adl5tYMVRZzX8nHUr68A4zy76ivRggkQo3DQEyS0Y7b+zwpKJtEExm0z0CKx YM7CR4Bz8IMpUwvXxIptjvqXRcwNA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedggeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:33:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:33:20 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:33:33 -0000

On 10/11/21 6:33 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
> On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if it 
>> comes to that.
> 
> Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a 
> temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be enough, 
> even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.

One consideration is knowing when the vacancy actually started. Perhaps 
the delegate misses a meeting or doesn't reply to email for 3 weeks but 
no one thinks much of it. Another 3 weeks go by, the appointing body 
finally learns that the role has been vacated, and now they're 6 weeks 
into their 2 months. Considerations of this kind make me think that 3 
months is safer.

>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>      [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for the
>>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>
>> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.  The "this" here could be read in 
>> one of two ways:
>>
>> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.
>>
>> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.
>>
>> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:
>>
>>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise 
>>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for 
>>> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.
>>
> 
> I'd go one step further and add "temporary", to make it crystal clear:
> 
> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise 
> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the 
> IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a temporary delegate.

+1

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 11 19:16:31 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6686F3A0BA4 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=pJzAJ/cG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FAJtflv8
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id geqTy73On5n3 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 758C33A0BA3 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0617D5C0109; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:16:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:16:18 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:from:to:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=r DnSlH6WPvgYC2DCBgQ2F/2glGvi9kTVVZRX30vrzAc=; b=pJzAJ/cGeGprpL74K 9HdW96tok0Y56U36V6IFgshRqUM+i7UHwbunpmcLO4lWI5jKsTgXQWxzSDeqMjUs yK/M60w7z4Ihxm//r/2r9pfuhx64AVcTn2lbFDfx3TWdzf8M9N3LsA97jNy+w/e4 FjumAr9CHfLI7JJT2NwKhnPF0EpAdzry1MYuSJ9IzfgNPEzp8wIjx8IqMAJjeGfL ElXDpEhi3lhJ9pHetaEZG2RLjmXCrRn7s5exaJeA2nWLg6Phmy6BfR5XwjVv2d8J uyfJkzD03TPXZtowLTz840to7/6UGWAGBTxFaRjeg9ouJQvnxdW8vkCXXGfgZ+xt PF/HQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=rDnSlH6WPvgYC2DCBgQ2F/2glGvi9kTVVZRX30vrz Ac=; b=FAJtflv8NUPx3ULSWtBToILGrIt31dm+QqkOTiZm2T+BDpmzlcp6yINAS zyqy5Nt7Y3UfswksaHIWnNxkRFRrI2StQcA4k4e4NkvhCzZZrW/lnz8A6rDFGwIa zfOEurNlSSxSfMP0sT9ZEUkcxw/ubgKgcQeM/BOYOCudUTqguplcTEoyUKDm61FY q+dzlyb3WRvjgbwWmUyIh2/BJu9vZL4rEgWVTvY+pzVSipVGIjCKJ27MLs+8mHAI 9dmabpvCBtqccZQsN4AnNcVVZYGgdEB28HsEXScrzZaToJ3j9RUU9T6tr2DBkSQg ob5ATbjLkhwxqXvsWkByV9/UZQdwA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtjedgheehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffhvfhfjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfeludeiffduffehhfeifeefhfdtvedvjeefvdejfffhteef ueeifeevgfffgeegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:16:16 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:16:15 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 02:16:28 -0000

Updated proposal based on feedback so far:

###

    In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
    the RSAB shall operate as follows:

    * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
      be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
      maximum of 3 months.
    * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
      shall continue as normal.

    Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
    times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
    on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
    incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as
    the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall
    appoint a temporary delegate.

###

On 10/11/21 7:33 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/11/21 6:33 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
>> On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if 
>>> it comes to that.
>>
>> Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a 
>> temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be 
>> enough, even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.
> 
> One consideration is knowing when the vacancy actually started. Perhaps 
> the delegate misses a meeting or doesn't reply to email for 3 weeks but 
> no one thinks much of it. Another 3 weeks go by, the appointing body 
> finally learns that the role has been vacated, and now they're 6 weeks 
> into their 2 months. Considerations of this kind make me think that 3 
> months is safer.
> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>      [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>>>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
>>>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for 
>>>> the
>>>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>
>>> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.  The "this" here could be read in 
>>> one of two ways:
>>>
>>> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.
>>>
>>> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.
>>>
>>> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:
>>>
>>>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise 
>>>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for 
>>>> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.
>>>
>>
>> I'd go one step further and add "temporary", to make it crystal clear:
>>
>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise 
>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the 
>> IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a temporary delegate.
> 
> +1
> 
> Peter
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 11 19:25:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A9B3A058F for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B1nPzGM4_YeB for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63AC63A0529 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id n7so13139257iod.0 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/de9GnprPUUcPfpc4au6QespatQVVfR65RicwMFzWeA=; b=kHEqpq7jMjHvSvEktuIFyHPpBWyMmSSGJZmjxTFgRI5Z+bidIzjAmsUwj0deK7PGRz brMggh9LTbL5leqFTLjmHwFszWKQkWjpWqCoux3FGK13XKnEAErrMlHV2Fl03RXF7U9t A4dK77maZHbuMvKGWIKc/KbYsjOHO2xxfxOTaeHE3hbuHUlQyYNhuCPT83nTY8Jz0ZfN R01lcoqGjhI7fFEFxbJCmcSiRhzj0o78DkXLek0vI3pbd9fF7b93RitQoMJlEwhd6Yk8 +MDgZnyUDRCCTD6A3HOZGzJF0TBsd1mYUy+5JqCnI8FTOp5yy2mMIVQSh/fob+BWagPq 5FJA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/de9GnprPUUcPfpc4au6QespatQVVfR65RicwMFzWeA=; b=MEJbWmM0rueYc7dMtCO21WPEydWxLwvbHqFafRMJ87jv2epMczF+4iOpNpQdgdKH76 IcDK5Q3IEfNPVpUbjaLlYiG5UGT5CUsOX7Hw/Cihplz6vmfQZHYgawJ6Bpnf2ygfHkql N/WBs+NnpznDuXmnWLTp5SjZ8r8MnZuR14JlDLuZ8Q+SGkYT+Fbhqm9HSDjMH+h3CLMZ SQ7feZxVrgzF0nSlvAUSROSlq4ZeUYFYQwIkZUNbe1+ILKGH3R0BZ+Dv7MjH//4FLcS/ zoomsW1U3tImSvdBdYvj5flklQGJUxpzOO4ECer/CT0Hz34VjtTt+ht2k2MrYjPURchE TEdQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530A/o1YtPyMhrcWdLub4+oInXQ16iLzo9sRRC+XPGG+Z8ui0I6+ xVJq67yj+tnB5iVx2inWeZ6jj9ZhOJBOFTTnnYD9hA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwOPBk95DNKciEzE49MkZKOr3kGeu8+6L1Odpf5gQcW2w+dR6DEYSJE4xZOhjzqNbFoq1NFBDk2NA/+jY3idm0=
X-Received: by 2002:a02:6f5d:: with SMTP id b29mr21696738jae.113.1634005527328;  Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:25:27 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:24:51 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= ,  Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000495a005ce1e8f7c"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 02:25:33 -0000

--0000000000000495a005ce1e8f7c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 7:16 PM Peter Saint-Andre 
wrote:

> Updated proposal based on feedback so far:
>
> ###
>
>     In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
>     the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>
>     * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>       be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>       maximum of 3 months.
>     * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>       shall continue as normal.
>
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
>     times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
>     on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>     incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as
>     the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall
>     appoint a temporary delegate.
>

I can live with this, but I think you should explicitly say that a vacancy
of the
RSCE does not require delays of approval (I believe we are agreed
on this, it's just in the interest of clarity)

-Ekr

###
>
> On 10/11/21 7:33 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > On 10/11/21 6:33 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
> >> On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:
> >>> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if
> >>> it comes to that.
> >>
> >> Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a
> >> temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be
> >> enough, even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.
> >
> > One consideration is knowing when the vacancy actually started. Perhaps
> > the delegate misses a meeting or doesn't reply to email for 3 weeks but
> > no one thinks much of it. Another 3 weeks go by, the appointing body
> > finally learns that the role has been vacated, and now they're 6 weeks
> > into their 2 months. Considerations of this kind make me think that 3
> > months is safer.
> >
> >>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> >>>>      [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
> >>>>      incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, this
> >>>>      responsibility shall fall to the IAB as the appointing body for
> >>>> the
> >>>>      IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
> >>>
> >>> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.  The "this" here could be read in
> >>> one of two ways:
> >>>
> >>> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.
> >>>
> >>> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.
> >>>
> >>> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:
> >>>
> >>>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise
> >>>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for
> >>>> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'd go one step further and add "temporary", to make it crystal clear:
> >>
> >> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise
> >> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for the
> >> IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a temporary delegate.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Peter
> >
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--0000000000000495a005ce1e8f7c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 7:16 PM Peter=
 Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
Up=
dated proposal based on feedback so far:



###



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSC=
E,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RSAB shall operate as follows:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG=
 shall

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been fi=
lled, up to a

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 maximum of 3 months.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Activities related to implementation of policies already in=
 force

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 shall continue as normal.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seate=
d at all

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if ne=
cessary

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on a temporary basis.=C2=A0 In the case that the IRTF chair o=
r ISE is

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the =
IAB - as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively -=
 shall

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appoint a temporary delegate.

=

I can live with this, but I think you should explicitly say that a vac=
ancy of the
RSCE does not require delays of approval (I believe w=
e are agreed
on this, it's just in the interest of clarity)

-Ekr


###



On 10/11/21 7:33 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 10/11/21 6:33 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:

>> On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:

>>> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm ha=
ppy with 3 if 

>>> it comes to that.

>>

>> Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a=
 

>> temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be 
>> enough, even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.

> 

> One consideration is knowing when the vacancy actually started. Perhap=
s 

> the delegate misses a meeting or doesn't reply to email for 3 week=
s but 

> no one thinks much of it. Another 3 weeks go by, the appointing body <=
br>
> finally learns that the role has been vacated, and now they're 6 w=
eeks 

> into their 2 months. Considerations of this kind make me think that 3 =


> months is safer.

> 

>>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [...] In the case that the IRTF c=
hair or ISE is

>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 incapacitated or otherwise unable=
 to appoint a delegate, this

>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 responsibility shall fall to the =
IAB as the appointing body for 

>>>> the

>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IRTF chair and ISE respectively.<=
br>
>>>

>>> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.=C2=A0 The "this" h=
ere could be read in 

>>> one of two ways:

>>>

>>> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate=
.

>>>

>>> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegat=
e.

>>>

>>> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:

>>>

>>>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or=
 otherwise 

>>>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing =
body for 

>>>> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a dele=
gate.

>>>

>>

>> I'd go one step further and add "temporary", to make=
 it crystal clear:

>>

>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwi=
se 

>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for=
 the 

>> IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a temporary delega=
te.

> 

> +1

> 

> Peter

> 



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--0000000000000495a005ce1e8f7c--


From nobody Mon Oct 11 20:59:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D3B3A0CC7 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8hpmL-5ft--z for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A7FD3A0C8A for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id d23so756532pgh.8 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TaekY/EPGJL0Hpft317+w02CxhzCt13cLpjdmiP0hF0=; b=Ala2Ng10Yw7OSfAawGE4CZTB23wcAS/T5qFLm/l/2jsp1+JjlhcvRmjA4DrLGgyXdT R8O9utUMu9AGhloSavUWpBlbRKJJjm42Ht73yWdqts5SECXgqzNporE44zKdthfcpHNB JUSiiQ8tAhKOAxF+/kpW0INmVrF5QC9iksc/GFYxb3BO+g2ZD7Bs58XZtoZ9Oy7h4mlZ jhQwEyBfCLW9PG9hbzd2B7xrb3Ui/IDon6elW1IQFok20CVG56Pl+FcsN+k9URXMZnax u0Le4WYzIsp4w99b2SzvsvoAHJ/IaVJY4nhLT6/uyrPgujR8AxAlqXWyANGUOc5UUy22 Hihw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TaekY/EPGJL0Hpft317+w02CxhzCt13cLpjdmiP0hF0=; b=bu75m8tzK3xm5T5wWi8ZvAiX2BZxz2tqU2EOjGoU9E4l5u0x3tLI7ZF8xh3Z9Mv+Dv jShwhK7Bhj82KPtyC5OGJ4TjJKh9RCMAMssLa3fmX4QjVQWu3vh3WiDkslFSKnotlQbF ZLn0NdOt+tmyXffT5c/hBavL1lw07Qu51U9TIcfNwRpc0Bigswll6vXBhBo5zhhnBN4R MdNqzpKXOvpZHl4y21FonIGhHSTdsX9Zf841HjN12UtVB0E0/YPirU+eqAUjxKMIPdhF FE2mnAKE+4E1irr/x8fGnZOkVgXtbK4bjGbujhScgXEM2h0UtZ5vPOXt70I0woYOB1GG HqOQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531aJvGeru7AQczkl3U3RmO25AkKOA7cVqdq/xOcuUyzMhkQ/gXT 6QXH11nHVIaKDesG8/T3pkWUu/drP9Rx7w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy/y2d2Gjg1PwL8zKNA3HSRcNw1CY4u6imbQPLv40sAhiPNnAXiiDxBiewMPvrj41DNyxQTmQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:4717:: with SMTP id u23mr21046311pga.359.1634011150644;  Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k7sm9207182pfk.59.2021.10.11.20.59.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <7bed5e40-1d93-ec12-fdb6-a430ef149660@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:59:05 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 03:59:12 -0000

wfm

Regards
   Brian

On 12-Oct-21 15:16, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Updated proposal based on feedback so far:
>=20
> ###
>=20
>     In the case of vacancies by voting members other than the RSCE,
>     the RSAB shall operate as follows:
>=20
>     * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall=

>       be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to=20
a
>       maximum of 3 months.
>     * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force=

>       shall continue as normal.
>=20
>     Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at a=
ll
>     times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessar=
y
>     on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
>     incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - =
as
>     the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall=

>     appoint a temporary delegate.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> On 10/11/21 7:33 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/11/21 6:33 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if =

>>>> it comes to that.
>>>
>>> Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a=20
>>> temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be=20
>>> enough, even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.
>>
>> One consideration is knowing when the vacancy actually started. Perhap=
s=20
>> the delegate misses a meeting or doesn't reply to email for 3 weeks bu=
t=20
>> no one thinks much of it. Another 3 weeks go by, the appointing body=20
>> finally learns that the role has been vacated, and now they're 6 weeks=20

>> into their 2 months. Considerations of this kind make me think that 3 =

>> months is safer.
>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, at 08:50, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [...] In the case that the IRTF chair or I=
SE is
>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoi=
nt a delegate, this
>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 responsibility shall fall to the IAB as th=
e appointing body for=20
>>>>> the
>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IRTF chair and ISE respectively.
>>>>
>>>> Minor grammatical ambiguity here.=C2=A0 The "this" here could be rea=
d in=20
>>>> one of two ways:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The IAB is responsible for acting as a (temporary) delegate.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The IAB is responsible for appointing a (temporary) delegate.
>>>>
>>>> I think that you probably want the latter, perhaps:
>>>>
>>>>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwis=
e=20
>>>>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for =

>>>>> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a delegate.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd go one step further and add "temporary", to make it crystal clear=
:
>>>
>>> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise =

>>> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB - as the appointing body for th=
e=20
>>> IRTF chair and ISE respectively - shall appoint a temporary delegate.=

>>
>> +1
>>
>> Peter
>>
>=20


From nobody Tue Oct 12 00:49:50 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E513A0A65 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ef9_YeMjoNuw for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EF653A0E13 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:49:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::5] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:5]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19C7nYmk1796895 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:49:35 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634024978; bh=hWeIQoA8KLWYIJ95qOn6NBVK52RHImBAYRt+/0nXcJM=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=xATXNWZtUO7hGXAX7caWz1QeVa5B3OuhCKcevK3fuKcV+tVFiuHla7oBwlHXlNvh3 fH8aDyVX3owhPIQkuPbFLzgHBcCmrreTnqVlFwdGByZnheOl/lQbK0088bACxU4pcO OBems7MlycWk1fjH1qrx//I5/lgKMpzV7xGf1LaI=
Message-ID: <1f40e3fa-41f9-d760-07ef-f834edf4a3df@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:49:31 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ryowsZl1GuVLxkcSEHwQzb8p"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:49:47 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------ryowsZl1GuVLxkcSEHwQzb8p
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------xI4mgwLDqD8hw71lLj0kGDqw";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Eric Rescorla , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?=
 , Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: <1f40e3fa-41f9-d760-07ef-f834edf4a3df@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
 
 
 <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
 <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------xI4mgwLDqD8hw71lLj0kGDqw
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tQS0jHjerOTyqsKhFfTK2h57"

--------------tQS0jHjerOTyqsKhFfTK2h57
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------tQS0jHjerOTyqsKhFfTK2h57
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------tQS0jHjerOTyqsKhFfTK2h57--


--------------xI4mgwLDqD8hw71lLj0kGDqw--

--------------ryowsZl1GuVLxkcSEHwQzb8p
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFlPgsFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPy
+QgApgGQegr6Ge7TpKZKDvIvK+3586/5n8Ost4m82T08qpgxuo/rYrYILzRYs6VOQIvUJGhIsv2/
CYb7RevBq1O3AU2HCwoGoVcQbKkG9YR+y7W8JgE3kNGGBiGh7AQrOkNU/DdPImL+bYavT4XLM2O6
Ov2lRx/gyKwoMRoXP3CFopp0MKrW6UppQsgQVf14z6ZJrrQsb8TfaiT6GzG/nybJ7Nixc7iuAfzk
CdUKjrJCQ6h+7wuI8jhJPUbJTX5LqU5GC9Ck6yttIBmezcwh6CWsmmeLjlp1nvXL/vZ7/jpHlEsA
7K48lkXaQCgqdORpNQJJeYl6mjhZxfRXasy0D+woCA==
=GMbw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------ryowsZl1GuVLxkcSEHwQzb8p--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 05:17:31 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641C03A0B00 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v41xiR0ktXgL for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:17:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C7013A0AEC for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:17:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:bd99:c33c:5637:9440]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87A20600B18 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:17:15 +0300 (EEST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1634041035; bh=lRnAwFlHI7nSqT/SqO1F1LyiKdbJZ7ucwCizlLKSOgA=; h=From:Subject:Date:To; b=dv6AMVHWCsHVs9EVyyzh2d+OYVcHxAkGK39FACm5MbUYv6hdroK3lsZnAA1k1Bk+U yPOLOoMGxNWqMSJSBzNMH2n149Yr7UBuEGHxSqS0MRSXaIt6v3aoqcpxQb8HBCziip Phz/0ZsitbDHVMQ96Sx3u69XO1UGCmWUvlFtUU1U=
From: Lars Eggert 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_50C43940-9F2D-4E31-9888-B1338CB35742"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Message-Id: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:17:13 +0300
To: rfced-future@iab.org
X-MailScanner-ID: 87A20600B18.AE6A4
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:17:29 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_50C43940-9F2D-4E31-9888-B1338CB35742
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

Hi,

the discussion around vacancies on the RSAB and how quickly they can be =
filled made me want to confirm my understanding of what role the stream =
managers have and who they are defined to be for each stream.

The RFC Editor has a helpful FAQ at =
https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#streamman that has the following table

> Stream				Stream Manager
> IAB				IAB Chair
> IETF				IESG
> Independent Submissions		ISE
> IRTF				IRSG

and says that the table is "as defined in RFC4844."

However, RFC4844 (and its replacement, RFC8729) does not refine the role =
of a stream manager. The closest it gets is to define the role of the =
approval body for each stream, which is not quite the same thing.

RFC5620 seems to be the first RFC to use the term "stream manager", also =
without further defining the role or defining who serves in it for a =
given stream. (RFC5620 also uses the term "stream approver", which seems =
to relate to RFC4844's "approval body" role.)

RFC6322, RFC6635, RFC8726 and RFC8728 also talk about "stream managers", =
again without defining exactly what they do and who they are. (Figure 1 =
in RFC6635 pictures streams and what I think are their approving bodies =
- or is this supposed to identify the stream managers? The text doesn't =
really clarify this.)

RFC8179 defines "alternate streams" and then goes on to identify stream =
managers for them (but doesn't do so for the IETF stream). It again =
refers to RFC4844, which (peer above) I don't think has these =
definitions:

>    The rules that apply to documents in Alternate Streams are
>    established by the managers of those Alternate Streams (currently =
the
>    Internet Architecture Board (IAB), Internet Research Steering Group
>    (IRSG), and Independent Submission Editor, as specified in
>    [RFC4844]).

All this leaves me with a bunch of questions about whether stream =
managers and stream approving bodies are just two terms for the same =
role. If the roles are different, is there any RFC that I missed that =
would define who the stream managers are?

Thanks,
Lars


--Apple-Mail=_50C43940-9F2D-4E31-9888-B1338CB35742
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
	name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=7YpH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Apple-Mail=_50C43940-9F2D-4E31-9888-B1338CB35742--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 07:25:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F7A3A14CA for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81Mdc4kOoxhJ for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082C73A14C7 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:25:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maIiE-000ApY-W8; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:25:03 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:24:56 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Lars Eggert 
cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB>
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:25:16 -0000

--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 15:17 +0300 Lars Eggert
 wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> the discussion around vacancies on the RSAB and how quickly
> they can be filled made me want to confirm my understanding of
> what role the stream managers have and who they are defined to
> be for each stream.
> 
> The RFC Editor has a helpful FAQ at
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#streamman that has the
> following table
> 
>> Stream				Stream Manager
>> IAB				IAB Chair
>> IETF				IESG
>> Independent Submissions		ISE
>> IRTF				IRSG
> 
> and says that the table is "as defined in RFC4844."
> 
> However, RFC4844 (and its replacement, RFC8729) does not
> refine the role of a stream manager. The closest it gets is to
> define the role of the approval body for each stream, which is
> not quite the same thing.
> 
> RFC5620 seems to be the first RFC to use the term "stream
> manager", also without further defining the role or defining
> who serves in it for a given stream. (RFC5620 also uses the
> term "stream approver", which seems to relate to RFC4844's
> "approval body" role.)
> 
> RFC6322, RFC6635, RFC8726 and RFC8728 also talk about "stream
> managers", again without defining exactly what they do and who
> they are. (Figure 1 in RFC6635 pictures streams and what I
> think are their approving bodies - or is this supposed to
> identify the stream managers? The text doesn't really clarify
> this.)
> 
> RFC8179 defines "alternate streams" and then goes on to
> identify stream managers for them (but doesn't do so for the
> IETF stream). It again refers to RFC4844, which (peer above) I
> don't think has these definitions:
> 
>>    The rules that apply to documents in Alternate Streams are
>>    established by the managers of those Alternate Streams
>>    (currently the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), Internet
>>    Research Steering Group (IRSG), and Independent Submission
>>    Editor, as specified in [RFC4844]).
> 
> All this leaves me with a bunch of questions about whether
> stream managers and stream approving bodies are just two terms
> for the same role. If the roles are different, is there any
> RFC that I missed that would define who the stream managers
> are?

I think that, traditionally, it has been two names for the same
role.  In the informal meetings that I remember (warning: from
years ago), if someone, or even two people showed up and
participated constructively in discussions, that was fine (Sandy
can probably confirm or clarify that).  If we are doing
something different, e.g., with named individuals as RSAB
members, perhaps it would be helpful to drop the "manager"
terminology and talk about "stream representative", "stream
spokesperson", or "stream designee".

best,
   john


From nobody Tue Oct 12 07:57:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7859C3A15A4 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obafdVJURZIw for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:57:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F27103A1597 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9da6:ac:822e:8d5e] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9da6:ac:822e:8d5e]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CEvigI2005946 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:57:44 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634050665; bh=wkUVvYFxlGipVDpBrodw9EHtAhFq1K+OLsgpmTuaXKk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=ODmW2mECifcCsF/zzMkEOQV0d6LJCMBhUVXXPPOB8+D/2jLnrc4+3I9jQTM3paXfy 7kt2gFJ0G+5Fv1YjxqOXOL295GKBdkkQITEmxxarGFefsha5RndrMcQhFnv3QWZj3O WZStUC/7jZ97v+AXTj8Hu3I59gft41142VI2/cFw=
Message-ID: <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:57:43 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: John C Klensin , Lars Eggert 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------cSXE9guH8i1NZthdiak460Ad"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:57:57 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------cSXE9guH8i1NZthdiak460Ad
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CBacABXxOJN0eICWQ1NlB7Qg";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: John C Klensin , Lars Eggert 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
References: 
 <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB>

--------------CBacABXxOJN0eICWQ1NlB7Qg
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------f48RidcdnbMGxpLDWisL4khT"

--------------f48RidcdnbMGxpLDWisL4khT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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==

--------------f48RidcdnbMGxpLDWisL4khT
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------f48RidcdnbMGxpLDWisL4khT--


--------------CBacABXxOJN0eICWQ1NlB7Qg--

--------------cSXE9guH8i1NZthdiak460Ad
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFlomcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejP/
YAf8CcfRZMPzkpjqbC4qAm4cEDymqZoz9LpJX5/UdruT6wWkN7Hcgb3u9S3l3B6WIvvIIoYnybxn
SXT05xZc8nhegNTs0I2pTIVN+lPexSK0YqEDak2RadnoAYJbmyU8afByEHszcjDZ+bOqT1cy2p9a
qes+Yu5wc88/i1vpusKdp9oPbP/ueT40suBUORTT/H5KADQibUmvdsot05p736Y1URh8OaCXlrRH
DBb7AAQ+BP8SkG4FXc+vSHmgReNUN89JAnJum5XfjLN2QdYMrDbcC1MiZ5zYh6nhYp5dmZxTTfM1
h1j2anb0t6ZbM1UyOTRxAHFPpTgOq7hoYvIqolVb1Q==
=956e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------cSXE9guH8i1NZthdiak460Ad--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 08:14:57 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6AC3A0C40 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cqULSjh3ApWY for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C9553A085F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee700990071b77c4d9f3e9200.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e700:9900:71b7:7c4d:9f3e:9200]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1maJUK-0000Y0-Ky; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:14:44 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:14:43 +0200
Cc: John C Klensin , Lars Eggert , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1634051690;f3f2ffb0;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1maJUK-0000Y0-Ky
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:14:55 -0000

Only that the table is not correct as the IAB should be the stream =
manager in this case and not the IAB Chair.

However, I would rather define more clearly what the term means.


> On 12. Oct 2021, at 16:57, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 12.10.21 16:24, John C Klensin wrote:
>>=20
>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 15:17 +0300 Lars Eggert
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> the discussion around vacancies on the RSAB and how quickly
>>> they can be filled made me want to confirm my understanding of
>>> what role the stream managers have and who they are defined to
>>> be for each stream.
>>>=20
>>> The RFC Editor has a helpful FAQ at
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#streamman that has the
>>> following table
>>>=20
>>>> Stream				Stream Manager
>>>> IAB				IAB Chair
>>>> IETF				IESG
>>>> Independent Submissions		ISE
>>>> IRTF				IRSG
>>> and says that the table is "as defined in RFC4844."
>=20
>=20
> Is the simple way to address this to simply include the above table in =
the draft?
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20
>>>=20
>>> However, RFC4844 (and its replacement, RFC8729) does not
>>> refine the role of a stream manager. The closest it gets is to
>>> define the role of the approval body for each stream, which is
>>> not quite the same thing.
>>>=20
>>> RFC5620 seems to be the first RFC to use the term "stream
>>> manager", also without further defining the role or defining
>>> who serves in it for a given stream. (RFC5620 also uses the
>>> term "stream approver", which seems to relate to RFC4844's
>>> "approval body" role.)
>>>=20
>>> RFC6322, RFC6635, RFC8726 and RFC8728 also talk about "stream
>>> managers", again without defining exactly what they do and who
>>> they are. (Figure 1 in RFC6635 pictures streams and what I
>>> think are their approving bodies - or is this supposed to
>>> identify the stream managers? The text doesn't really clarify
>>> this.)
>>>=20
>>> RFC8179 defines "alternate streams" and then goes on to
>>> identify stream managers for them (but doesn't do so for the
>>> IETF stream). It again refers to RFC4844, which (peer above) I
>>> don't think has these definitions:
>>>=20
>>>>    The rules that apply to documents in Alternate Streams are
>>>>    established by the managers of those Alternate Streams
>>>>    (currently the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), Internet
>>>>    Research Steering Group (IRSG), and Independent Submission
>>>>    Editor, as specified in [RFC4844]).
>>> All this leaves me with a bunch of questions about whether
>>> stream managers and stream approving bodies are just two terms
>>> for the same role. If the roles are different, is there any
>>> RFC that I missed that would define who the stream managers
>>> are?
>> I think that, traditionally, it has been two names for the same
>> role.  In the informal meetings that I remember (warning: from
>> years ago), if someone, or even two people showed up and
>> participated constructively in discussions, that was fine (Sandy
>> can probably confirm or clarify that).  If we are doing
>> something different, e.g., with named individuals as RSAB
>> members, perhaps it would be helpful to drop the "manager"
>> terminology and talk about "stream representative", "stream
>> spokesperson", or "stream designee".
>>=20
>> best,
>>    john
>>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 12 08:55:43 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0F33A191F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KAI8AGxxuHl6 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:55:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 337BD3A1871 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maK77-000Axk-1B; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:54:49 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:54:42 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Eliot Lear , Lars Eggert 
cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <179E198810EDBADF1D5AC7B1@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:55:41 -0000

--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 16:57 +0200 Eliot Lear
 wrote:

> 
> On 12.10.21 16:24, John C Klensin wrote:
>> 
>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 15:17 +0300 Lars Eggert
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> the discussion around vacancies on the RSAB and how quickly
>>> they can be filled made me want to confirm my understanding
>>> of what role the stream managers have and who they are
>>> defined to be for each stream.
>>> 
>>> The RFC Editor has a helpful FAQ at
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#streamman that has the
>>> following table
>>> 
>>>> Stream				Stream Manager
>>>> IAB				IAB Chair
>>>> IETF				IESG
>>>> Independent Submissions		ISE
>>>> IRTF				IRSG
>>> and says that the table is "as defined in RFC4844."
> 
> Is the simple way to address this to simply include the above
> table in the draft?

Eliot,

Does not solve the problem because that table --as well as the
way "stream manager" and "stream approving bodies" have been
used-- are sometimes about bodies and sometimes about designated
people.    And, of course, Mirja is correct that, especially if
the table is going to show "IESG" and "IRTF", it should show
"IAB" and not "IAB Chair".

I think we may be in need of some new terminology that we can
define precisely rather than trying to reuse old terms that have
been used in imprecise ways and hope people notice our new
definitions.

best,
   john




From nobody Tue Oct 12 09:33:48 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173993A1644 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:33:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUZSH0Y1A-fT for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 029113A1643 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=Z91zJDdCmw5e9S300uwbLUm85HkhJr31HdKB0AKHTt8=; b=lOpjy9npJ/386nCyZ0azycxigm oG94GqmuE4keOXiAn53pyz7A3r/53bGN5bYjHSNEk5b+TbIuBEldBjPUlFRozE38krkfFQay19aGd TpMdGL0qPL/zO81S3dGTHqlqvTwZp+AdPhndjLla8FvOT3xWzqD8sSNTBUxYxNgMAOjBM1RFyAqVP jpCKTxfYDBxEpvjj+RVOU9E37+fov6jBlS1nnBDPs3OxhoB+XKM3SDxcFMphUurnEJ4MDtK7wM2nd eiTBICEzJ4c6gHqR/EchmYkyOrbPc7l/Jj1gevmLpHsP9LqHGWPJfqAsLyV6T7H/TXMJy56mPQV/O ONQ6DyZA==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=46332 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maKiS-0006MH-FK; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:33:28 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:33:08 +0100
Cc: Eliot Lear , John C Klensin , Lars Eggert , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:33:44 -0000

Hi,

Having a group rather than a person occupying a particular role also =
seems less than ideal, in terms of providing a consistent point of =
contact to resolve any issues relating to a stream.=20

Do we need a one-page update to RFC 8729 that says something like:

> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG, IRSG, and =
ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager to act as an =
administrative point of contact on behalf of that stream. The Stream =
Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair, IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their =
delegates, respectively.


Colin



> On 12 Oct 2021, at 16:14, Mirja Kuehlewind  =
wrote:
>=20
> Only that the table is not correct as the IAB should be the stream =
manager in this case and not the IAB Chair.
>=20
> However, I would rather define more clearly what the term means.
>=20
>=20
>> On 12. Oct 2021, at 16:57, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 12.10.21 16:24, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>=20
>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 15:17 +0300 Lars Eggert
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi,
>>>>=20
>>>> the discussion around vacancies on the RSAB and how quickly
>>>> they can be filled made me want to confirm my understanding of
>>>> what role the stream managers have and who they are defined to
>>>> be for each stream.
>>>>=20
>>>> The RFC Editor has a helpful FAQ at
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#streamman that has the
>>>> following table
>>>>=20
>>>>> Stream				Stream Manager
>>>>> IAB				IAB Chair
>>>>> IETF				IESG
>>>>> Independent Submissions		ISE
>>>>> IRTF				IRSG
>>>> and says that the table is "as defined in RFC4844."
>>=20
>>=20
>> Is the simple way to address this to simply include the above table =
in the draft?
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> However, RFC4844 (and its replacement, RFC8729) does not
>>>> refine the role of a stream manager. The closest it gets is to
>>>> define the role of the approval body for each stream, which is
>>>> not quite the same thing.
>>>>=20
>>>> RFC5620 seems to be the first RFC to use the term "stream
>>>> manager", also without further defining the role or defining
>>>> who serves in it for a given stream. (RFC5620 also uses the
>>>> term "stream approver", which seems to relate to RFC4844's
>>>> "approval body" role.)
>>>>=20
>>>> RFC6322, RFC6635, RFC8726 and RFC8728 also talk about "stream
>>>> managers", again without defining exactly what they do and who
>>>> they are. (Figure 1 in RFC6635 pictures streams and what I
>>>> think are their approving bodies - or is this supposed to
>>>> identify the stream managers? The text doesn't really clarify
>>>> this.)
>>>>=20
>>>> RFC8179 defines "alternate streams" and then goes on to
>>>> identify stream managers for them (but doesn't do so for the
>>>> IETF stream). It again refers to RFC4844, which (peer above) I
>>>> don't think has these definitions:
>>>>=20
>>>>>   The rules that apply to documents in Alternate Streams are
>>>>>   established by the managers of those Alternate Streams
>>>>>   (currently the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), Internet
>>>>>   Research Steering Group (IRSG), and Independent Submission
>>>>>   Editor, as specified in [RFC4844]).
>>>> All this leaves me with a bunch of questions about whether
>>>> stream managers and stream approving bodies are just two terms
>>>> for the same role. If the roles are different, is there any
>>>> RFC that I missed that would define who the stream managers
>>>> are?
>>> I think that, traditionally, it has been two names for the same
>>> role.  In the informal meetings that I remember (warning: from
>>> years ago), if someone, or even two people showed up and
>>> participated constructively in discussions, that was fine (Sandy
>>> can probably confirm or clarify that).  If we are doing
>>> something different, e.g., with named individuals as RSAB
>>> members, perhaps it would be helpful to drop the "manager"
>>> terminology and talk about "stream representative", "stream
>>> spokesperson", or "stream designee".
>>>=20
>>> best,
>>>   john
>>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





From nobody Tue Oct 12 09:38:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEB83A0B08 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eYliJl50EEOL for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB9963A0BAD for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee700990071b77c4d9f3e9200.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e700:9900:71b7:7c4d:9f3e:9200]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1maKmz-0003nu-CJ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:38:05 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:38:04 +0200
Cc: Eliot Lear , John C Klensin , Lars Eggert , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <3E2F1664-D876-434E-9302-80D9B029A4BC@kuehlewind.net>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
To: Colin Perkins 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1634056691;d92a8213;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1maKmz-0003nu-CJ
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:38:17 -0000

I=E2=80=99m all in for defining this clearly. However, the proposed text =
below would need to be discussed with the IAB because there is currently =
no notation in the IAB that the stream manager position fails back to =
the IAB Chair by default.


> On 12. Oct 2021, at 18:33, Colin Perkins  wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Having a group rather than a person occupying a particular role also =
seems less than ideal, in terms of providing a consistent point of =
contact to resolve any issues relating to a stream.=20
>=20
> Do we need a one-page update to RFC 8729 that says something like:
>=20
>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG, IRSG, and =
ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager to act as an =
administrative point of contact on behalf of that stream. The Stream =
Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair, IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their =
delegates, respectively.
>=20
>=20
> Colin
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 16:14, Mirja Kuehlewind  =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Only that the table is not correct as the IAB should be the stream =
manager in this case and not the IAB Chair.
>>=20
>> However, I would rather define more clearly what the term means.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 12. Oct 2021, at 16:57, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 12.10.21 16:24, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 15:17 +0300 Lars Eggert
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> the discussion around vacancies on the RSAB and how quickly
>>>>> they can be filled made me want to confirm my understanding of
>>>>> what role the stream managers have and who they are defined to
>>>>> be for each stream.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The RFC Editor has a helpful FAQ at
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#streamman that has the
>>>>> following table
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Stream				Stream Manager
>>>>>> IAB				IAB Chair
>>>>>> IETF				IESG
>>>>>> Independent Submissions		ISE
>>>>>> IRTF				IRSG
>>>>> and says that the table is "as defined in RFC4844."
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Is the simple way to address this to simply include the above table =
in the draft?
>>>=20
>>> Eliot
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> However, RFC4844 (and its replacement, RFC8729) does not
>>>>> refine the role of a stream manager. The closest it gets is to
>>>>> define the role of the approval body for each stream, which is
>>>>> not quite the same thing.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> RFC5620 seems to be the first RFC to use the term "stream
>>>>> manager", also without further defining the role or defining
>>>>> who serves in it for a given stream. (RFC5620 also uses the
>>>>> term "stream approver", which seems to relate to RFC4844's
>>>>> "approval body" role.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> RFC6322, RFC6635, RFC8726 and RFC8728 also talk about "stream
>>>>> managers", again without defining exactly what they do and who
>>>>> they are. (Figure 1 in RFC6635 pictures streams and what I
>>>>> think are their approving bodies - or is this supposed to
>>>>> identify the stream managers? The text doesn't really clarify
>>>>> this.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> RFC8179 defines "alternate streams" and then goes on to
>>>>> identify stream managers for them (but doesn't do so for the
>>>>> IETF stream). It again refers to RFC4844, which (peer above) I
>>>>> don't think has these definitions:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  The rules that apply to documents in Alternate Streams are
>>>>>>  established by the managers of those Alternate Streams
>>>>>>  (currently the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), Internet
>>>>>>  Research Steering Group (IRSG), and Independent Submission
>>>>>>  Editor, as specified in [RFC4844]).
>>>>> All this leaves me with a bunch of questions about whether
>>>>> stream managers and stream approving bodies are just two terms
>>>>> for the same role. If the roles are different, is there any
>>>>> RFC that I missed that would define who the stream managers
>>>>> are?
>>>> I think that, traditionally, it has been two names for the same
>>>> role.  In the informal meetings that I remember (warning: from
>>>> years ago), if someone, or even two people showed up and
>>>> participated constructively in discussions, that was fine (Sandy
>>>> can probably confirm or clarify that).  If we are doing
>>>> something different, e.g., with named individuals as RSAB
>>>> members, perhaps it would be helpful to drop the "manager"
>>>> terminology and talk about "stream representative", "stream
>>>> spokesperson", or "stream designee".
>>>>=20
>>>> best,
>>>>  john
>>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Colin Perkins
> https://csperkins.org/
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


From nobody Tue Oct 12 09:42:32 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9603A0BDD for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ygMYfz35BCJJ for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A2013A0B08 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::f] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:f]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CGgIgd2057447 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:42:19 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634056939; bh=JIhy7oyayuNQ37/u338MpMYD6yXkNhw73sCr4aoGc/U=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=sdWVXA+HL4/yqxNE97k5UtXtVKp3rU4pWmY7EUhJmXSaq8AKLqcvHTmv/ZXqNR6YK DopG+dxZHmSx3/8ppD7JIqYiKvvhLvYzP7mF+WpmcIhEG0eygST4jGH1ubwqIFxMox /+viAeztvps9oDPcereRRmP35+6dxvxmxBftTs7U=
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:42:17 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: John C Klensin , Lars Eggert , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------MrKWS0bJXl9wR4An67bpBX9s"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:42:31 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------MrKWS0bJXl9wR4An67bpBX9s
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------zthVljHufAsOBuh8YBOZYnmT";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
Cc: John C Klensin , Lars Eggert ,
 rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
References: 
 <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch>
 <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net>
 <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
In-Reply-To: <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>

--------------zthVljHufAsOBuh8YBOZYnmT
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------M01GM414l4cFaEtf0bgIEqAp"

--------------M01GM414l4cFaEtf0bgIEqAp
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------M01GM414l4cFaEtf0bgIEqAp
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------M01GM414l4cFaEtf0bgIEqAp--


--------------zthVljHufAsOBuh8YBOZYnmT--

--------------MrKWS0bJXl9wR4An67bpBX9s
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFluukFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPH
BQf+NxDg1EtZJSQuPDNarWzpJkPTEexp/S+xde1ByTvyz8uk88KKt3yRWQ64JMfG/6jg9xqo/U0y
gi9owyQBV4u2vaK989jFnTgP2xGEHIhEfFMaaQ5Ph2/cayhFioWvNnY95VyzOhl+9m6ki7coTG7p
VNEeyiDrE2k6d7zZu9yqV26B0z2Xxn3qKSEpWXilb+J979cP70fLQ3SBvtvwf6si9OKnx6DHwvXo
rGHrAK959CgNNO5gGaSjdFv0YMiYVdTh/3iUod8FvO+D05l7MWO5KeP/rFdVsXTqJxMFsT+WimKz
UH1m4uiJ7r1r3xx1F+xdZPiFfu9cBOHO3HeftGlNuA==
=5RnJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------MrKWS0bJXl9wR4An67bpBX9s--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 10:27:50 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31403A1697 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D2MlL2fLi0cS for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4D0A3A1699 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maLYk-000B9c-Kq; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:27:26 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:27:20 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Colin Perkins , Mirja Kuehlewind 
cc: Eliot Lear , Lars Eggert , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
In-Reply-To: <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:27:49 -0000

--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
 wrote:

>...
> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.

Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
how those groups choose their representatives should not be
within scope for this group or its document.

So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
"Manager", something more like:

NEW:

	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
	stream and member of the RSAB. 

Isn't that enough?

If we can't trust those bodies to make timely initial
appointments, much of the discussion about vacancies gets more
complicated.

And, reprising an earlier conversation, if we intend "from their
membership" rather than recruiting members of the community,
that phrase should go in there.  Or we can leave that to the
discretion of the bodies too.

   john




From nobody Tue Oct 12 11:38:27 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3C33A05DE for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUYmptg1Ca03 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE5E13A074B for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=nkwl2jq6zzEoxPkDe9mK2E9TnYaezT3v5ajMjbDjOdw=; b=BB1ynwmSNihn/5B+B8Mb37SBjq +4Maco8QmE6CFMlC1aEmjf9iZydftbwAZkw/rUx2oV83O7b8Lxju8P/D8Dcovn5WrcuOX/oM1mPf5 DJDeL2+eOQqFwM8EbYd2FlfKqEMRDP8tXaOtPnQ9ZHfePDTGlKvDbxw1m6MsQ98kAvboHY3KZ92Vp cAGVYAhNoH8vx7JC9yqEY0FR04dwRHe93WNGIoYeowHS7SYHTU4vr02TJCgump1R1vOqJVVS620n1 JVdjgwth8qAmr6ampeJAJ2kX3qYUtyAbAo9QOWXowTy+ryGBKxARQqBnLpJHgDDQr8k6XZP4J8TqX V8ahz01A==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=44012 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maMf6-0002Yq-FJ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:38:04 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:38:00 +0100
Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:38:18 -0000

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 02:33, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
> On 10/11/21 6:33 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
>> On 2021-10-12 09:02, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>> I share Brian's concern about the 6 number, but I'm happy with 3 if =
it comes to that.
>> Same here. Even lower is even better. Taking 3 months to appoint a =
temporary delegate is waaaay toooooo long. Two months should be enough, =
even over the summer or the New Year's holidays.
>=20
> One consideration is knowing when the vacancy actually started. =
Perhaps the delegate misses a meeting or doesn't reply to email for 3 =
weeks but no one thinks much of it. Another 3 weeks go by, the =
appointing body finally learns that the role has been vacated, and now =
they're 6 weeks into their 2 months. Considerations of this kind make me =
think that 3 months is safer.


I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons such =
as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.

--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





From nobody Tue Oct 12 11:47:33 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485333A0788 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s_vnVlj5HAqc for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7442C3A0784 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=DlPUTrgXqMdkYcSDgbg5ihSg0UiAC4lZcBwXflB8O0I=; b=vv+oSUhwwFCwAtRTJvCGFHLeBe VD7lmsVyfy9UYS7ZZML4gBC4hda6mT1vGSOCglN0luFZL1CHGACHyqDrSbEPNCq9U1CWbrnUvgjw3 ckUU/WnVSqDVjNGXcUfg6Y76PysFVHEJ8Kq5WchUhOgqJ7PcJfy3pPC2aVRq7XQkcNKDjGeB8+ZZz SRWy+xMENUJP06GNnLyNZjqr62Rcyhg+hGNsBTVXeOGHDyIA6Ws0Fzm/ma/W1aNrjbQ84ZSzMNWr+ e730vYCT4RRYYN2mARQGKOLaaXf0IZ1NX5DoQzEgnmKwdDw8CwkS5OfXwcJGPE+OroOxXvcYAqidf SSgl5wWQ==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=44936 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maMo2-0005C9-1h; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:47:18 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:47:11 +0100
Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org, Lars Eggert , Eliot Lear 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org> 
To: John C Klensin 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:47:29 -0000

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>  wrote:
>=20
>> ...
>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>=20
> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
> within scope for this group or its document.
>=20
> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
> "Manager", something more like:
>=20
> NEW:
>=20
> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
> 	stream and member of the RSAB.=20
>=20
> Isn't that enough?

No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according to a =
method of their own choosing.=20

The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify existing =
usage, not to define a new term.

> If we can't trust those bodies to make timely initial
> appointments, much of the discussion about vacancies gets more
> complicated.
>=20
> And, reprising an earlier conversation, if we intend "from their
> membership" rather than recruiting members of the community,
> that phrase should go in there.  Or we can leave that to the
> discretion of the bodies too.

If we go that route, I=E2=80=99d suggest IAB and IESG select one of =
their members to be their stream manager, IRTF Chair and ISE are the =
managers for the respective streams but can delegate.=20

--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





From nobody Tue Oct 12 11:48:43 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC63D3A0791 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pXnjHRRYAkpp for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 701EC3A0788 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::f] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:f]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CImUh02118182 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:48:30 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634064511; bh=DlK1GNcVRSCnZQFabS93dFBh2Us1p76rhyfaeych0kg=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=OsqqvLISuiVOJwoytg8Ja2RgRQsZwaE+us52ei+Bjezv6nAp310xrLu80npY/mvwq mbgtBf9JbJo5fLBl/wOyomkfShyM5M+bO1/2RazVLK1ShNZorGaWrv6QkcEUqDkxfY 34NhOk7FK3FOHQBc46fH/Di1M78V6FsLyJozK1nw=
Message-ID: <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:48:29 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------D0Lr0lj0iyDTtukIK0pZrcTv"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:48:41 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------D0Lr0lj0iyDTtukIK0pZrcTv
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C4DfzJpNiDmeRKN0IceBc0Wl";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?=
 , Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
 
 
 <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
 <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
In-Reply-To: <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>

--------------C4DfzJpNiDmeRKN0IceBc0Wl
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------pAjW5B0gdei98ygbmzIQOt5Y"

--------------pAjW5B0gdei98ygbmzIQOt5Y
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

PG5vIGhhdHM+DQoNCk9uIDEyLjEwLjIxIDIwOjM4LCBDb2xpbiBQZXJraW5zIHdyb3RlOg0K
Pg0KPiBJ4oCZZCBiZSBtdWNoIG1vcmUgY29tZm9ydGFibGUgd2l0aCBzaXggbW9udGhzLCBm
b3IgcmVhc29ucyBzdWNoIGFzIHRoaXMuIFRoZXJl4oCZcyBub3RoaW5nIHRpbWUgc2Vuc2l0
aXZlIGhlcmUuDQo+DQoNClNvcnJ5LSBzaXggbW9udGhzIGlzIG5vdGhpbmcgc2hvcnQgb2Yg
b3V0cmFnZW91cyB0byBzdG9wIHdvcmsuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCg==
--------------pAjW5B0gdei98ygbmzIQOt5Y
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------pAjW5B0gdei98ygbmzIQOt5Y--


--------------C4DfzJpNiDmeRKN0IceBc0Wl--

--------------D0Lr0lj0iyDTtukIK0pZrcTv
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFl2H0FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOP
zwgAxmZ1cb4qZE2+QAesujYx876gCZ1zODFlj0SYK8M01u+xHnlnMtKI7Ov0/He8xggRsSEDeSgp
3RIC4iFRgCIi0Glz9RPOGh/V+Jo6cnIhdi8SdqqD2For0dlSKpscB3TNaK/uGUd959TvALOyk12Y
+SCuJhv+uGJU7CYiAVZQymUULu0L3FCDFZKE37a+vubLAGumMsQKdWuSDnp8jI/u6HV2EBNKoWU1
8BlM+QDLE65g9xluaOD5EaPBmUdcfZk0MC0ABiVjkqhqTYXRZzwkMEnWC3HAm5I2O19wfiHoVKqf
2t//6Uxp2g+BmEuYGVfuYYcyw6rFzOPA0eRokrCn6A==
=Nb8D
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------D0Lr0lj0iyDTtukIK0pZrcTv--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:03:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7507D3A07A4 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:02:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uYimgQVRvkiX for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2A723A0859 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=fmSRZeiYceDaxwfkgoqpkjsxOzZHUnS2IbrZC2htQR4=; b=pjau/E61Fr9tpjg26NXUWl4KbP iR4bSN4w8DC79PI5GwQCQSUQCWc8ES2xgvz5MBL4FkHhWzWdFyDmJbJiiv7yYgANvQ7sFF4etAmuu X6NABaiVZwB0+ZrnsTXibBcQlAQUvJ6DR28lkPKGB7QMCExrU5rc2wVrx2rOuoKp8GC0qI5Q02n9p 2bC4jX4KX6PAkCa0bbOhFXMqkEoATDD8mxDcM0kVzlvzHMkv7VMWSKe4uUYbL3qviB61JVawMV6ps 4Onk5Xq+Ryn6cJ69CzCpXZoUJcvLpCTIJp2eis90a2BsegdGlUMM8zCUzS93I2pkjNzDnNuQdh+l6 ClVQ/tHA==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=34289 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maN2l-0000XO-Fu; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:02:31 +0100
From: Colin Perkins 
Message-Id: 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F37C1D4B-56D0-4BD9-97F0-FD61309B7442"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:02:29 +0100
In-Reply-To: <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Martin Thomson 
To: Eliot Lear 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:02:57 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_F37C1D4B-56D0-4BD9-97F0-FD61309B7442
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> 
>=20
> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons =
such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
>=20
> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.


What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting where a =
worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an exceptional =
emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would =
cause any problems?

The worst case outcome here is that RFCs continue to be published =
following the existing process for a few months longer while an =
appointment is made.

Colin=

--Apple-Mail=_F37C1D4B-56D0-4BD9-97F0-FD61309B7442
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8


On =
12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

<no=
 hats>

On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins =
wrote:

I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for =
reasons such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.

Sorry- six months is nothing =
short of outrageous to stop work.

What sort of =
policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting where a worst case =
delay of six months, that can only occur in an exceptional emergency =
situation and not in normal operation of the process, would cause any problems?

The worst case outcome here is that =
RFCs continue to be published following the existing process for a few =
months longer while an appointment is made.

Colin
=

--Apple-Mail=_F37C1D4B-56D0-4BD9-97F0-FD61309B7442--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:06:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACE03A0804 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=o2/MVtwF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=bhB5oCQJ
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YPQva4oE0MRz for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:06:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F3FA3A07F5 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CEE5C019C; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:06:03 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=h r3eho8S4fnbUVcjYjkzc0iI21XqgCtnr+5rr43D4tc=; b=o2/MVtwFOYbeW4CK/ GGcl1HHN+8weq0wtVlUZzw7IC4njGHYpoDYwdcH5EOW04AI4fwWFwPz2b8EZCm2z kctO1hBwX0om9o9tZtMlVcHZeutRye1wOYq+f7CuKLGgmtp0jB++JwbGMz7QSETP Oa+hJiJ+R7rvmzb3WbXX2oVVvqd/+TWlyWG54AUsEnzAMApL5Szg2yKt3MaC/HSx vpSHVORnwY+NkOt/ofX5Ufx3b4gWNYKf5XKiyllFu+bCMean2ajefyL8FPMfXJvQ JwVVWq3OBa9QPvwNAbZIXTFroi4OgdDX7RwLoCgfa3qFF6RynDx3pY5LgxqDyE6P C+0FQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=hr3eho8S4fnbUVcjYjkzc0iI21XqgCtnr+5rr43D4 tc=; b=bhB5oCQJvgNt+RZiaGFBH40VtYmCz2y+/W27IB9fhk6+2uaUxIXp8kcTs SbrQAJCDLir/sirGl8l6xnkKOhm5uose5l8mIwuizn3iDCDCAQhomRyL1jKbffA/ SA0fv1ScU1UcbjcdXbcaydyW1CHowoDGgF5LNgZcXnmwV+miSpszjd3H6+Eo0m6G mqOmzZBTbpN+6wtfI1Hjhj7mXNrYm+7BxXf4xpOSZQuMldB5ZRjD0Pd4V3Wp7EXl dWlSgpTvdU3BV4u0yL9g6Xbcl7RaluI5198+oZRWiRUOhWA1Bscd4Hj0GrOi4rYZ gwRjY6mJQ1iKNdmvNyHSr3lbiWOcA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtkedguddvlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:06:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins , John C Klensin 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>  
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:06:15 -0000

On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>
>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>
>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>> "Manager", something more like:
>>
>> NEW:
>>
>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>
>> Isn't that enough?
> 
> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according to a method of their own choosing.
> 
> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify existing usage, not to define a new term.

I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in part 
because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities are). 
However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is on the 
RSAB.

>> If we can't trust those bodies to make timely initial
>> appointments, much of the discussion about vacancies gets more
>> complicated.
>>
>> And, reprising an earlier conversation, if we intend "from their
>> membership" rather than recruiting members of the community,
>> that phrase should go in there.  Or we can leave that to the
>> discretion of the bodies too.
> 
> If we go that route, I’d suggest IAB and IESG select one of their members to be their stream manager, IRTF Chair and ISE are the managers for the respective streams but can delegate.

I think that's effectively what our current text says.

We might want to make these matters even clearer, such as:

###

The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:

* As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IESG
* As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IAB
* As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
* As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
   Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
   delegate appointed by the ISE
* The RFC Series Consulting Editor

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as
the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall
appoint a temporary delegate.

###

Peter


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:11:10 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599993A00B2 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUzUxSHQZB57 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 783E43A0029 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=AoHp98oMMF21dpZxSIP7eF0kK2x7IH9HoWAyL8rghGw=; b=fl7dhZo6mhTuSstP+TQP6Xwu/I pQ9xDizMRzYWVuYD4AO+lRVvboI3NGtICvGnbQQ85PuAhUSH4YoC/k/sWTPnVMB+3tVjJK+2JNDN3 SoHhBzcZB95aGECwlDSAxecsxUeaZz0betoNrsgD2/Ai9MtWjVbDciWkWA+wbsx8y5wscJe76SVUx KNOM8EQREd2oD1E7BtpaC0kMG0PQ/1L622VagZ4tQgnQaeIzoRuHorVCuRuwbe/avYs8Sub61tb7u j57ZfELoW6K+5Vn613SP1y/E+5ilnvscot/bh0uS+D5whYc4yj9jg9Ar2wJN4wAucf3NTZx+Ur1Cs ej/uVb7A==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=38989 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maNAt-0002uJ-9O; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:10:57 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:10:53 +0100
Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>   
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:11:10 -0000

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
> On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> ...
>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>>=20
>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>>=20
>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>=20
>>> NEW:
>>>=20
>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>=20
>>> Isn't that enough?
>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according to =
a method of their own choosing.
>> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify =
existing usage, not to define a new term.
>=20
> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in =
part because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities =
are). However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is =
on the RSAB.

Maybe I=E2=80=99m confused, but I thought the point of this thread was =
to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as you note =
below, a definition of the stream representatives for the RSAB.

Colin


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:12:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7173A00E1 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.89
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHVMG3Ry-ezs for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F0D23A00B2 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:12:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::f] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:f]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CJC64S2130089 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:12:07 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634065927; bh=eT29Is4UuJ7yFHYJlUkgKhRiiRbSKFDMjplZyzKF8jI=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=wZQ63F1iZPp63/FLolFTwYjTuRczmeT8Bi9rTRE6G+EqsCZoKItBgIHTXBVwUWJai j5hBgfVsarOGNyaEw/EG0qqCLZXMGMFFotVdE7JqTVuXpD2VfyU3EIv+ZZ7fiDC2fH vFsAfTGaCLRahOcSNXqCeXN6bpOUBKewCQbil1Gk=
Message-ID: <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:12:05 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------RTzFGbmUTYqoaF4c7KNi6K6D"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:12:24 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------RTzFGbmUTYqoaF4c7KNi6K6D
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C951gx47n4ZT3su5vmhv1jV9";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org,
 =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= ,
 Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
 
 
 <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
 <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
 <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------C951gx47n4ZT3su5vmhv1jV9
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------An0ZAMQNy4HTmlwP0e00Ce0y"

--------------An0ZAMQNy4HTmlwP0e00Ce0y
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------nArxK9BmCUE0RZ0j4j0xH5DP"

--------------nArxK9BmCUE0RZ0j4j0xH5DP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------nArxK9BmCUE0RZ0j4j0xH5DP
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    


    

    
On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote=
:

    

    

      
      

        

          
On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

          

          

            
<no hats>

              

              On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:

              


                I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for=

                reasons such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensit=
ive
                here.

              

              

              Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop
              work.

            

          

        

      

      


      

      
What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are
        you expecting where a worst case delay of six months, that can
        only occur in an exceptional emergency situation and not in
        normal operation of the process, would cause any
        problems?

    

    
Sorry- wrong question.=C2=A0 If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY vo=
lunteer
      group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiate=
d with
      one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply
      the height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the
      fruits of their labors.=C2=A0 No business would tolerate such a del=
ay,
      and we shouldn't either.=C2=A0 You simply cannot delay the will of =
the
      community like that.

    
Three months is barely tolerable, but understandable.=C2=A0 Six mo=
nths
      is beyond any reason.

    

    
Eliot

    

  

--------------nArxK9BmCUE0RZ0j4j0xH5DP--

--------------An0ZAMQNy4HTmlwP0e00Ce0y
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------An0ZAMQNy4HTmlwP0e00Ce0y--


--------------C951gx47n4ZT3su5vmhv1jV9--

--------------RTzFGbmUTYqoaF4c7KNi6K6D
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFl3gUFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNF
CAf+Pxc8VpsdL8GAxK5yVf7m6V+T2mIoCQ0DGu31oQDamalq0JVbZslcdTWWnKkPbWJl3ghwxY7X
lvr6iB5dNPDzdOBAaO5oow79vxoKKPiY2odx3+mlqFa2a5K8Ka68GK/GQVxPJNNBOdBnyBsOiUl4
7XXqv1n8s5zqx8gJwFEEi+ta+KfY4/MwkADt8QFOoSof++/JfZojS1qINgipkv/9VVB2mVdNVq2H
x37tckXKdXrxeE2OI7SERexmRUFep5CHkOsoNVqGAnhVRjOS8/5dLTBzZ0IvpTFMD64gi4fX98lF
MJBwu3Ixjy4R/coOfucBfwZ7zlezT7vhtsbLFRjeQQ==
=NttX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------RTzFGbmUTYqoaF4c7KNi6K6D--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:20:28 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA79C3A03EE for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.887
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Za4qQ3XSTE5l for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2261D3A003C for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id l7so139409qkk.0 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=KBBLyJCIz8O9glEZE2/pbP5M+j3OeAe0m5ZF0ujNPDY=; b=V08+3fLC9kFU6ts4pc9IY6g0/uC6OeaxfW0O6nAa0n1ywDdzsX8ib0OFuxg0TPJWTF h31i2wSWA4d6KJL+EPPCfCrJjGptdom8I0ur1nPP1rE0hB8bDYKjRY8yL70BtUTeCtAV WC8G3nUoVy1a74VXXw7LdHJVzsyME1hkZNeE/bR42x202Ry8/QC7qY01P31jSHyR+jOP IrjYD2NVvpKbDOqfbhWXbtqhWL4EtiSZ1rfOVAkNp2qmh4CZRrhy/jF0jdGrTemZ1tPp tiOfSdd/4y97/mXd3gR09KWSdJ8VHnSzUiCjNTvyjQsHuoUWYlRAyvbq3QUHjqsdzimm DPjQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=KBBLyJCIz8O9glEZE2/pbP5M+j3OeAe0m5ZF0ujNPDY=; b=RnZ8L5UoheGShAXdJOWsFt40sO9rtlS57FfH/vhGP1Mz0OBcAtYVy9PQUiB24LBAlC YxcikoM0gUcm+ZYYWyrXfFW8JD9SN2VMhfU1QYJpSuzYYiguBGN8YlRElDrEvIbF/yKe hnUFF9wzYHXqm+v35NtB0BO+/6DEs/j5lTdZbNVOitQ0JIagGl94P0fSE/oaCH0Xfvk0 1jLmtysIOl6vLt/LhNP0fdVZ/uLSsWECWUbup24zUPXPGSYUQt4FeM0ozBCGl2Gzmrov fvX2QR3e3CJyiSIY6YpH9NbEavVdJuYuFFa+DkFVAcH9JN7JdwWYiZhXAJz0NqfpwjzD nopQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533sX0XpKFX14gddb1aNYI7GEAHDo+3GZuNwbrUDax2WT/AIA9hU tFIqwOFgxHCMN2kQMZ0eAoikIi20+iHZZrDG
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwk1g+2roqmXsstu5+dUmW0yk7YehI95eLHS4wgCfYQvqriaKAx55JQcAhReHwUidVfagFjA==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:b0c6:: with SMTP id z189mr21325526qke.344.1634066418695;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:20:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h2sm6335511qkf.106.2021.10.12.12.20.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:20:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Message-Id: <90CF276C-6613-49AC-816A-FE64ADFFEBE0@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_100B1D08-A483-49B5-A48A-799B73EB328D"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:20:16 -0400
In-Reply-To: <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
Cc: Colin Perkins , rfced-future@iab.org, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Martin Thomson , Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Eliot Lear 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:20:26 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_100B1D08-A483-49B5-A48A-799B73EB328D
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

Is there a compromise here?  Something like 3 months but can be extended =
by unanimous (or majority or super majority) agreement of the other RSAB =
members?


> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:12 PM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
>>>>=20


--Apple-Mail=_100B1D08-A483-49B5-A48A-799B73EB328D
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

Is =
there a compromise here?  Something like 3 months but can be =
extended by unanimous (or majority or super majority) agreement of the =
other RSAB members?


On Oct =
12, 2021, at 3:12 PM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:


=


=

--Apple-Mail=_100B1D08-A483-49B5-A48A-799B73EB328D--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:22:05 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8163C3A03F7 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=GJtGJb4V; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Jk0aQamn
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UtDiCDI_Iuee for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65293A03EE for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010395C01ED; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:21:58 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:21:58 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:cc:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=8 +Vx/XsXeZQT0NOS066qMqu3nEXv6kubE0wkNrV4lbI=; b=GJtGJb4VkWQTsDPOo nUooa2Ou+xKv5gVa3Y6+W4nl8+i/SqsdYRaNW7+iRoMzHU5GDhL/PSfskfY8iDy5 q8ITqO6odiiByhiSU4IaxDW/TLar+hfBmNcCXwsSv3tFRAdpStz5HTflgd5pw08+ EUAKfnzaNK1xEPWxZv/R2eftBA2ph++ozm3x/sYvJ4DekwjCBqLaExXhID2TWeLy f9yal5SHZZVzKlT2IOvoD4dpTrDvhjLJ75J+w2jwj7ykQchO0ceJ8p3Foe5RJlkX ALwQU3eRp+ySznLhO7ZxEj5p0ebFV8fpvO2Y9VTMnkJbK+JIyw2egmsmVInRmNXq eGQtQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=8+Vx/XsXeZQT0NOS066qMqu3nEXv6kubE0wkNrV4l bI=; b=Jk0aQamnm4TLEP8N8c1XsCmvQ9sKUEjFlveqmzY8DMLHeYo9n7NUQyYD0 VCn/USen4pjvQmEFnZAQz2uPBbrrJMTHOJ5xz0Tia0H/6pBs2IJHI3A2tOgcBOnL mW0a29ejCGRZLuYfDX0x8eaeyI8EYqKyL/MUGI44OgCP7NpKLsGfm3zCCczvIR3R cCS0BIRP4pr13bYVDRnQshzoJ6e1AWTtXM/MhkSBuHSohGtukKlBP46irVTfXNcw 8/XhLwhPOqMEHGQIWVFe4ZcpPfJjNIIYRZqd1mS4LWqzTacT9MIfbonJEHhYADSo U4+SKDkMDMcWzimkyErCI8G1hSooA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtkedgudefvdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeugeefvdekte efgeekkeeggffgueetteehgedvgfffveegkefgleehtdegteefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:21:57 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <8dd4f347-271a-0768-bcfb-256904528f68@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:21:52 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:22:05 -0000

On 10/12/21 1:10 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>> On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>>>
>>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>>>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>>>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>>>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>>>
>>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>>
>>>> NEW:
>>>>
>>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that enough?
>>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according to a method of their own choosing.
>>> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify existing usage, not to define a new term.
>>
>> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in part because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities are). However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is on the RSAB.
> 
> Maybe I’m confused, but I thought the point of this thread was to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as you note below, a definition of the stream representatives for the RSAB.

But, in general, what are the responsibilities of stream managers? For 
instance, is the stream manager on the escalation path for issues that 
come up between an author and the RPC? Is the stream manager a point of 
contact for authors within their stream regarding authoring, tooling, 
stream-specific policies, etc.? This kind of thing seems out of scope 
for the Program.

Peter


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:23:37 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032C63A03FE for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJ_u_1YMlemM for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49CC23A03F7 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=4FJHOc4jV3XhK5HEfjsj/Aga7VDtX3Z9WezL2oJ/Pw0=; b=OWif46rdL8KdQ9FYUN2aV3WDsQ t53zJ2iXiBaIIiRtp0MJJKxEXxVRrwdrABMhMc/zlNTbx9YAqby43xIHHEXTYK0owx2LazxOSckUR /UkHnL1bpIHtsoIFy/ag86RsQBrSIQVGbxGEqarGg2Q12hf5htxnlMMx/BcPb79FX6MdN31zAX9ZW M6rQZg5pR/iSx/igVv1JnLRhGqUlZJB9bpmnuClsgVxG4ilYWHYzRdZ3F5BW/KqPUzYf4Wq2RSYNH 9T5ClFsmXVRSY66bc5gSlQFH5yAht7Ba1HU1xRnvlz4AgzRSZvgVw817+09eAK3WlEjqavhrX4UXW q4eMFRYw==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=48127 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maNN1-0006Wr-79; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:23:27 +0100
From: Colin Perkins 
Message-Id: <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9AC85A2A-E5FF-4F01-B5C4-9896CB39B4DE"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:23:25 +0100
In-Reply-To: <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Martin Thomson , Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Eliot Lear 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:23:35 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_9AC85A2A-E5FF-4F01-B5C4-9896CB39B4DE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear > wrote:
>>>=20
>>> 
>>>=20
>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons =
such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>=20
>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>=20
>>=20
>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting =
where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an =
exceptional emergency situation and not in normal operation of the =
process, would cause any problems?
> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunteer =
group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated =
with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply =
the height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits =
of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we =
shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community =
like that.
>=20

Sorry, but I strongly disagree.=20

It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that =
publish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and =
the appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a =
qualified replacement.=20

Colin


--Apple-Mail=_9AC85A2A-E5FF-4F01-B5C4-9896CB39B4DE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8


On =
12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin =
Perkins wrote:

    

    

      
      

        

          
On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

          

          

            
<no hats>

              

              On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:

              


                I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, =
for
                reasons such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time =
sensitive
                here.

              

              

              Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop
              work.

            

          

        

      

      


      

      
What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are
        you expecting where a worst case delay of six months, that can
        only occur in an exceptional emergency situation and not in
        normal operation of the process, would cause any=

        problems?

    
Sorry- wrong question.  If a =
volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunteer
      group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, =
negotiated with
      one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply
      the height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the
      fruits of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a =
delay,
      and we shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of =
the
      community like that.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. 

It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise =
one of the communities that publish in the RFC series if their =
representative is incapacitated and the appointing body, despite their =
best efforts, is struggling to find a qualified =
replacement. 

Colin

=

--Apple-Mail=_9AC85A2A-E5FF-4F01-B5C4-9896CB39B4DE--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:27:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7983A03F7 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:27:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AdMwS4MtE_ag for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEC473A03FE for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=SeKJ9RwmZSY4aO9yvKe94d1yfS7oYtp71QbduRhDu5M=; b=1jR/4fnRgSszQP0zbd2gxs2Qoc w2heF/J0iU/gzelROpDrDSkAA7bWQow5XIAWmPRRFomUqZvIAG+4rwdd2UykQAUFC2lrCv/ANDw/H BTxYTr4aLK5sNU7j4WvzbeNIGNUzMRXLeVPPCAtGrgcJJ+yhcuKLOLr91oAeimPaIcVe0VevNgEYU IHETeEUji6ucuIzkGn6TIh8TR4Amdp6tE/mpxrsBxp+o/I5lVrLXiV97RfaF2dlOfPWemN2qa+70o o1RY722rQqLnpz4lIdBa9T+LCBZ7+13ATWOV4n04Pg9Bl1m2tm/+ZbzWAaNO6+C0/QYLmMmPoXEWB eIoTmPkw==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=34689 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maNQa-00076l-HG; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:27:08 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: <8dd4f347-271a-0768-bcfb-256904528f68@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:27:07 +0100
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org> <8dd4f347-271a-0768-bcfb-256904528f68@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:27:17 -0000

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:21, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
> On 10/12/21 1:10 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>>> On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>>>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>>>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>>>>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>>>>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>>>>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Isn't that enough?
>>>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according =
to a method of their own choosing.
>>>> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify =
existing usage, not to define a new term.
>>>=20
>>> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in =
part because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities =
are). However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is =
on the RSAB.
>> Maybe I=E2=80=99m confused, but I thought the point of this thread =
was to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as you note =
below, a definition of the stream representatives for the RSAB.
>=20
> But, in general, what are the responsibilities of stream managers? For =
instance, is the stream manager on the escalation path for issues that =
come up between an author and the RPC? Is the stream manager a point of =
contact for authors within their stream regarding authoring, tooling, =
stream-specific policies, etc.?

Isn=E2=80=99t this already defined? My understanding is that the =
existing RFCs already specify this, but are just a little vague on =
exactly who the stream managers are.

> This kind of thing seems out of scope for the Program.


Sure, I agree. It seemed a useful clarification, that we might ask the =
IAB to publish, since it had come up in this programme. Equally, I=E2=80=99=
m happy not to take this any further.

--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:35:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6CC3A0474 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:35:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=ZHxxSJKs; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=UsAQiyWJ
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GlH0LoHANf_l for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A2963A045B for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BFB5C00B0; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:35:23 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=8 C1nIhLtk1INhI5iZ+yD9APNOYjYRPlPF2fRXUAau/M=; b=ZHxxSJKstoImsnhG9 VSXyZImIbGRe1dR2oFnnIPf12R935LF0g+WAuP2TpSALW1MzjeOH1zO1jev4pVHL KJBS/jzBOh2+jR62WWYWXCIB1gDoeco8D/V8kVcQ0NlLEi8P8V1lS8WjGzj9aahc wyPgrS+PFhfO+CwDGlADPOWOb3/wuFBePIwVNwqgHdVfoWfLOn3s5zJ8Pg0lVQV1 5qGBUxsp+nZTzY/efo9xHhliC+9Ph58uVRXeJ309w5QeN+/D2mryvYKzDSYLpMJw 5YTV/0I6xm5SW5N3v/FfA96VKgF4kKYRBEHXOf1wIXDzqfLb0uIwAKmahK/olav2 n9AHg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=8C1nIhLtk1INhI5iZ+yD9APNOYjYRPlPF2fRXUAau /M=; b=UsAQiyWJNR7M6ZgB3oI4Q1+hK4bVze+C9uME7xBxB3p3BHCvZ3Ro2NZaa oezGgmn3f3B2cugVnex1tP8T/OQ5cPmRGELzx80cP3KBZr2+kPcs0rTiN0B5VPID kKsdgZzPj6I1G5/P1EM/hIV/NCdQBRIkNs2kR63AoZpm4uGMXWoLpJyst8HsIzcy cTDJ2ITOm2Ldf9sxd2m3X2u3Ak7E/Z3msGs5D2/LQsd5BjwB2s2Pb0ylYDIf0fd1 gbkP7LyjLgALV6PhXBdH/CEr+DYsz6s5tiOz2S1O8r8Jmc48Yx1pegwV6CXbwo6R pHwkbEPgajsX9e9DWo+Bd+0LcOYJQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddtkedgudefhecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1658a43e-8be8-4f94-0cb2-05e34d695a21@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:35:22 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org> <8dd4f347-271a-0768-bcfb-256904528f68@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:35:32 -0000

On 10/12/21 1:27 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:21, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>> On 10/12/21 1:10 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>>>> On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>>>>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>>>>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>>>>>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>>>>>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>>>>>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>>>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't that enough?
>>>>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according to a method of their own choosing.
>>>>> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify existing usage, not to define a new term.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in part because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities are). However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is on the RSAB.
>>> Maybe I’m confused, but I thought the point of this thread was to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as you note below, a definition of the stream representatives for the RSAB.
>>
>> But, in general, what are the responsibilities of stream managers? For instance, is the stream manager on the escalation path for issues that come up between an author and the RPC? Is the stream manager a point of contact for authors within their stream regarding authoring, tooling, stream-specific policies, etc.?
> 
> Isn’t this already defined? My understanding is that the existing RFCs already specify this, but are just a little vague on exactly who the stream managers are.

As John's note uncovered, the existing RFCs don't specify this. Stream 
managers are mentioned in RFC 6635 with a reference to RFC 4844, but 
neither defines the responsibilities of the managers, except that 6635 
says "the stream manager for each stream is responsible for the content 
of that stream" (and a few other small statements), but nothing 
definitional as far as I can see.

Peter


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:44:31 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 461153A0529 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DuLfTrU9NDlj for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A6003A048A for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:44:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::f] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:f]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CJiIkg2145635 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:44:18 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634067860; bh=54t9HRJFGOdmSKM80oKu9mCdKUqlBTkkrlogoaDgLAc=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=PQmeepX63B1ZD5eBg4LM+MC3pmJE2yp8gOhM2baZMfLT79Rkg5id0zuiYYsOjyP5I KBKblpi+wonXCalDGkqPefMkRAi0Awde8SUuzzFlJd8e2dwE+aUj4vvh5LHVz5Mlrn LeEM625JB0BRLAyg7TZj68BJ7axvKTjHzBKE8BBg=
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:44:17 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Martin Thomson 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------OL9oUGZ4IAt3fG4GehMUxDq5"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:44:30 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------OL9oUGZ4IAt3fG4GehMUxDq5
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------VAyiYoXxODvonb03d7SVJ7h0";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Colin Perkins 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?=
 , Peter Saint-Andre ,
 Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
 
 
 <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
 <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
 <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
 
 <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
 <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
In-Reply-To: <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>

--------------VAyiYoXxODvonb03d7SVJ7h0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------s8x2Yv2mQK0oRGrbzjSu9cr7"

--------------s8x2Yv2mQK0oRGrbzjSu9cr7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------s8x2Yv2mQK0oRGrbzjSu9cr7
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------s8x2Yv2mQK0oRGrbzjSu9cr7--


--------------VAyiYoXxODvonb03d7SVJ7h0--

--------------OL9oUGZ4IAt3fG4GehMUxDq5
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFl5ZEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNK
1Qf+PwV/HE3sPZ+HS9ZU36ZHwWBEn3Jb38vyh6YwTP4283miV9u3NtHSrlolN05KXhH5e6Uf6RKo
BXj6WscH73PYlQl1dwbRoGY/F7JGHeuq0CL2v0/t6VOHRymfGd263rFUvKYQybdK0czziv+o4vge
KQZUWrhVswQkyu+goOdGJuMzBtdy8fPwpJv4dMdEiNks0aZPaZ+cFtpsOumgyR3eG7gN3JSlekoJ
jwj9AtyAvjJhFwFJAGusACJf6yY05WWxgugekOd4s2MN16F3L/Bp9UtpX9BHx22NIB87c8V56DPP
qciWYdoeXrZ25P3G8KuiCMWxIRrT8mjYlIKb3qiy7A==
=C4yR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------OL9oUGZ4IAt3fG4GehMUxDq5--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:46:54 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E183A0553 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lWVKW0dK7rwt for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:46:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 134A23A053E for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::f] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:f]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CJkilI2146685 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:46:44 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634068004; bh=N8Tg8nncqSd7qkNU+wqNdFexOpmoLLvpnm88/Ycf8sY=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=GOcWz5oaQUIDsiXCPgBdoZSCAjFmGBe0HTmlvJZFq/wgcTZXqgoxV/4aNsWePymbs /lraIf6P6XpNdCzu+c+EdeOwUiMNKtH37UKfD11tjhlnoTuXl89VV7zfuxDEvrdAUb g4VVbP/je9VGHXMhIzmsQrNyvrPFcDBEoRRE+z/c=
Message-ID: <5d89b2e5-e2b7-3b1a-11dd-3fca758bcadf@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:46:43 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im> <7bed5e40-1d93-ec12-fdb6-a430ef149660@gmail.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <7bed5e40-1d93-ec12-fdb6-a430ef149660@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------XyEhyOHliY7EsC20E6lxE8oL"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:46:53 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------XyEhyOHliY7EsC20E6lxE8oL
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4U5yy42E7kNP1mpLKeMw50Od";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Brian E Carpenter ,
 Peter Saint-Andre ,
 =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= ,
 Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <5d89b2e5-e2b7-3b1a-11dd-3fca758bcadf@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
 
 
 <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
 <998f699f-c7c9-c20b-d104-cbee0081b859@stpeter.im>
 <7bed5e40-1d93-ec12-fdb6-a430ef149660@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <7bed5e40-1d93-ec12-fdb6-a430ef149660@gmail.com>

--------------4U5yy42E7kNP1mpLKeMw50Od
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------zkQy0ya00Klz1A5HRHMMngcN"

--------------zkQy0ya00Klz1A5HRHMMngcN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------zkQy0ya00Klz1A5HRHMMngcN
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------zkQy0ya00Klz1A5HRHMMngcN--


--------------4U5yy42E7kNP1mpLKeMw50Od--

--------------XyEhyOHliY7EsC20E6lxE8oL
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFl5iMFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOb
Kwf/Y2yFLg4vSWC+BrjnNTOLe+mZBInbp/orEHaE01qTppmifN5PUBM+jLQmed3n2mNAJzlPZ3Rl
6r0OL8KgV4/+sljSiVVHRGR9HNYhWlj1OuZI1ET40efv6RffvIkoA7oQ4I3Z8gJ2UPc7MoutqqHO
rRlHP0sKOkYHHbI8WH45pgwu35ZdPZW731cwMnPeptSGMJT4PskQthFOglY60Ot/TGUvkoaBNpjY
9SJRHZQLfZsR3fK9rDS6XxCmEE4jZiRXJxUhXYvrAb5xjzWeeYV7WbqHBZ9HTOI/EH2YiaUxG3UM
LNgsp78OCannmgjxN4PBlJQgOdS08VuYYTYuUvyJdw==
=DIIm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------XyEhyOHliY7EsC20E6lxE8oL--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:48:17 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21423A08CC for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qWwFORI2OymY for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:48:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 455BC3A0875 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93EBC4112A50; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x3TLrli6E5_h; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A4144112A44; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:47:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Message-Id: <66007E14-30F4-4C8A-97FB-50899F6FDECD@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DDF89E7D-4029-42D8-ADBF-EBDEE2E94316"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:47:45 +1300
In-Reply-To: <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Martin Thomson 
To: Colin Perkins 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:48:16 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_DDF89E7D-4029-42D8-ADBF-EBDEE2E94316
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8



> On 13/10/2021, at 8:23 AM, Colin Perkins  wrote:
>=20
>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear > wrote:
>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear > wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> 
>>>>=20
>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons =
such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>=20
>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting =
where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an =
exceptional emergency situation and not in normal operation of the =
process, would cause any problems?
>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunteer =
group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated =
with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply =
the height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits =
of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we =
shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community =
like that.
>>=20
>=20
> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.=20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that =
publish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and =
the appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a =
qualified replacement.=20

(also no hat)

I understand the importance of not having a stream disenfranchised but =
extending this gap to six months feels to me as if it would undermine =
the RSWG/RSAB process and so run the risk of disenfranchising all =
streams. =20

I also doubt that any length of time will guarantee the ability of a =
stream to find a "qualified" replacement as this is such a niche area.  =
3 months should be adequate for a stream to find a "capable" replacement =
even if they are unqualified.

Jay

>=20
> Colin
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org 
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_DDF89E7D-4029-42D8-ADBF-EBDEE2E94316
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On 13/10/2021, at 8:23 AM, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> =
wrote:

On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> =
wrote:
On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

<no=
 hats>

On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins =
wrote:

I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for =
reasons such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.

Sorry- six months is nothing =
short of outrageous to stop work.

What sort of =
policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting where a worst case =
delay of six months, that can only occur in an exceptional emergency =
situation and not in normal operation of the process, would cause any problems?
<=
p class=3D"">Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 =
ANY volunteer group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, =
negotiated with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it =
is simply the height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see =
the fruits of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a =
delay, and we shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will =
of the community like that.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. 

It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of =
the communities that publish in the RFC series if their representative =
is incapacitated and the appointing body, despite their best efforts, is =
struggling to find a qualified =
replacement. 

(also no hat)

I =
understand the importance of not having a stream disenfranchised but =
extending this gap to six months feels to me as if it would undermine =
the RSWG/RSAB process and so run the risk of disenfranchising all =
streams.  

I also doubt that =
any length of time will guarantee the ability of a stream to find a =
"qualified" replacement as this is such a niche area.  3 months =
should be adequate for a stream to find a "capable" replacement even if =
they are unqualified.

Jay


Colin

-- Rfced-future mailing =
list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_DDF89E7D-4029-42D8-ADBF-EBDEE2E94316--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:49:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0DD3A058F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:49:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id faL0XaC_Fg41 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 929F83A053E for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=XzleYHRWjtCrSNJDlBHMU7ik6QG2d5C7Gmg5Kih/opU=; b=qOWkbxrgElqG3HhQ7OMnIcng3w rXI9LYI48RpuwK9f1KVLlbGUxnxyoVh25Ji1+W3TeQZHbaJjH/70xqDAg5BuHi20sQ2tp20dvqiyQ Z2WJGaa+koUB8/6lYRROk52IdGytajm+H5EsPaXUSd0hotUn7k2aCofiIwPpAlSaLId8oSmmH761l SVTSOcMZs8Lu1imDBnJoJcj4oy++BpA3k5kStk2RBCjU1PxZ/3monGc1C0imEFU8304fokuduwqMD aQazHtvWUVwg+cPVywmQHZKiACGtpx+XFRw7gAI8XGJQhNqVZUbt5CKt3sDS2kXG3ifbmkyYR0WcU G4oVk+mw==;
Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=35738 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1maNmT-0004nf-MR; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:49:46 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
From: Colin Perkins 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:49:43 +0100
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Martin Thomson 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <2274B64B-4BB9-4D10-9150-CB3022C8C58E@csperkins.org>
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> 
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:49:54 -0000

> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:44, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> 
>=20
> On 12.10.21 21:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that =
publish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and =
the appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a =
qualified replacement.
>=20
> This is not the other streams sneaking off in the middle of the night =
and doing something behind one stream's back.  It is not about =
disenfranchisement when you refuse to allow for a temporary appointment =
in any form.


Now I=E2=80=99m really confused.

We're talking about the process for appointing a (potentially temporary) =
replacement. I want to give the appointing bodies time to do that =E2=80=93=
 and believe three months may be too short.=20

--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:54:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233703A059F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgX74-3hJOeg for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5B1C3A0598 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id ls18-20020a17090b351200b001a00250584aso2696833pjb.4 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=d/Ajw47ADiIekVLW2dLs8cEPdP5qjlma1azIOuScF8A=; b=jmvl4dMcgxYVJvRzzxYES83KoOzeGgA/VghC6wdN94EZxXGKWsAHHa4SVj7e+fjZuZ cO8QRlt90uhsKaHKzAcP/3lWpFXHa2n37kWsVj34Uv/kqatdFpWRrEqy2vtzeDX4ziJY WeoPK7UqFELwOqA+JpnbUhDZHVTm5BosC1NacUqNRPUWbaSvXLbSEXd5Eq3Y3Z9LQrbr 9jQNH1i0DRzaBbChAxzmRFM2JGWlwqQpS8BdzohAXwPsa69WEvEPcqvs1ihtj6CxyLut s2Gf0R3FwiKuGbH40OB9RVLvdcWKbiWZDG1kaEKRZAXgzSJ3jku3+KVwbJNrRHLbNtZO 8LNQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=d/Ajw47ADiIekVLW2dLs8cEPdP5qjlma1azIOuScF8A=; b=MLUcGYntOF+edQ6hSejmzQAfydqImTxbYXHEIpt/D5gk6HJb3ImZc60SsLyII8GT+J Py16Lr02RIQSW8eqm73u46Y1SZ9vt8nHQ5UQRqhdLF+YkCn9zfoy25tFwmK6c0GZ1LoE sgDVi1Exk6jZvfgqWRh7YJmXnRGD8jIHo4cmqhf51n63IVPfQIWsJVqnuHtR6SQH769o 0c5Hsk/9LgtFWm53+mSYdAE2joKWIfUH8UQjHQLW7X7yCfEH9u5Wa+/tP5b8O/zDsRvL NvGB0Rpfb3tNSn4LNt9On7m/qc2atiSeIZ5lm/cjHfez0R6EDPg8SWyMpp90kp4BKX8a W2MQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mV5e37rZG0h07VpXiXAADqCUAElUc/tCfkfTkcu/9p51vQIfD zirZIAGWDTSlteZjmrroulUOz1Vq6f9kuw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzSE+XkQ66a6yeN1g9zBrGsJZh2RWcG2rjddNBz2ixAuTdgtgbJrY6XnOPWMT1qTCm6YVDCgg==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4483:: with SMTP id t3mr8318490pjg.44.1634068477996;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t1sm8895715pfe.51.2021.10.12.12.54.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Colin Perkins , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Martin Thomson 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:54:33 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:54:43 -0000

On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear > wrote:
>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons s=
uch as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>
>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting wher=
e a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an exceptional=20
emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would cau=
se /any/ problems?
>>
>> Sorry- wrong question.=C2=A0 If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunt=
eer group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated =
with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the=20
height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits of th=
eir labors.=C2=A0 No business would tolerate such a delay, and we shouldn=
't either.=C2=A0 You simply cannot delay the will of the community like t=
hat.
>>
> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.=C2=A0
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that pub=
lish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the a=
ppointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a quali=
fied replacement.=C2=A0

We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is not at=20
all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly specialised kno=
wledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly not part of this di=
scussion).

So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very generous a=
mount of time.

   Brian


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:57:10 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7675E3A05DE for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EjufSPOCpMPm for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B3A13A05D0 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::f] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:f]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19CJuubC2151901 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:56:56 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634068616; bh=eDWcrO/P6u8eG2Xur8wLv7jhTa9f/ZLZ/YkI2pq4mns=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=ABRAvyn/UIRO+6xh1rJStpa7i/eVBpNaSWMZtFakKX9xyFa5NrXChKna0wPeJ2iMl wI379SOLYt4wraTGLvHZ+0L5IlfleswsbJoIxITla875/oqNUEdW7TfmZcUdcbfyJm fRsAuF1jqaa9SG8zDlNWIsL228K8QMxZFzBXZQoQ=
Message-ID: <45c2bf0d-048a-e772-4132-2fe831689195@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:56:55 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------03fme62Qi02cOTiUhXQToVGt"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 82
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:57:07 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------03fme62Qi02cOTiUhXQToVGt
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------eam83Nkmm4hDgpSyoPfDDMgG";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <45c2bf0d-048a-e772-4132-2fe831689195@lear.ch>
Subject: Issue 82

--------------eam83Nkmm4hDgpSyoPfDDMgG
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------gEMUpFCG7OIwrnqM4491xvsE"

--------------gEMUpFCG7OIwrnqM4491xvsE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

Rm9yIHRoZSBhdm9pZGFuY2Ugb2YgYW55IGRvdWJ0LCBJJ20gcmVjdXNpbmcgbXkgcm9sZSBv
ZiBjaGFpciBvbiB0aGlzIA0KaXNzdWUuwqAgQnJpYW4gd2lsbCBjYWxsIGFueSBjb25zZW5z
dXMuwqAgWWVzLCBJIGZlZWwgcGFzc2lvbmF0ZWx5IG9uIHRoaXMgDQpvbmUgKEkgZ3Vlc3Mg
dGhhdCBwcm9iYWJseSBjYW1lIGFjcm9zcykuDQoNCg==
--------------gEMUpFCG7OIwrnqM4491xvsE
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------gEMUpFCG7OIwrnqM4491xvsE--


--------------eam83Nkmm4hDgpSyoPfDDMgG--

--------------03fme62Qi02cOTiUhXQToVGt
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFl6IcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOX
qAgAk/y6CEtlEcgrI+lGHB43OgpAqvFol019MeIary/VixPIauSqSRVAMQUljseZRMXcN5K4Dnie
fIw58xz2t1Cs/cWwbH/qSYBhOfKkJ3QEaMlpkqYyay0EkdcgTGiNRvKWqcAFmoPyMihCA3wDEkrX
UDg665ccAKrL4VpRdZ1WgSg5PSO+NJdVil3xlggHkUxbS0M7uaJAd3/pbmWo0cGROwxj80behiER
ZU1q9zEMdBRwWoxcOVMsRjk6HEa0s6xVejsxjO9QWZ/uTzqzLwgaxNh0P28o0lTbg1+TIdd7p2NJ
KgA+wmd1D3BJNGTuMtmrQgOOXH14l080PKciuh0hHg==
=1RAm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------03fme62Qi02cOTiUhXQToVGt--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 12:57:42 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FCE3A05D0 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.888
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k9Roz2wPBJ3F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94DA93A05DF for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id i1so494310qtr.6 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=FNIYp36SXc6ZUgzh/k7e4mAOEqDiz/WoDydOXb15o0c=; b=w+nUCU2gQqYq7ztvxrl71+0rCTNxzwE266NQ/7bT1+unl21ZUnAOu2SwDRWMk4cCs8 z656wpaK4/qPRGWGYu/ZaLvAL3yCLZOLealkxOED9KEVbLHB9Q2OWSXVa9ZQx76ZN7h0 iv3Uw7xyKv6IE4SGEtnt3wCm3BjoSsAZejeC9zJQXoUStKk7bDjmTw4q/zrprAbqSE6U C6sKa0pIH637eJGm23ZSBSdSOt5MIpw7SKGxk4obSCaqN/3RGGIf8nwKI/4rTgGpAw5l EpFvodn6ZB0QeSi9rXIirdeUSWU7RIc28vARM1+HlclGbefgAPR1kGhsNBkSbybCyV7U 3c3w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=FNIYp36SXc6ZUgzh/k7e4mAOEqDiz/WoDydOXb15o0c=; b=XxAsgzOdCimLZ0yVnQ0912g3HA1mP229Wc5xGsvhDvzSWQ6XoCXWYrmubFPgQgdZ3Q SI/s/0rj9xCY9ZsDqqSXJCrbZ6v68PCxcgfcaQgYuqUuyslaCKI3IQmqPhGOLaqLYcZW DzCccxmYvj1sDA1DbtEjX+ES6PnpFbZdhalygS+RLtrrY5zk5xfAxySA0hmBZL5PFlFx +kGpfD6R5eW7YkT2DD3Kj1jyKJC8rE+T1fFI1dhsy+9Kb0kUTxJD5S+XVIEUhTnrHgki miMmHXrM9a0a+GBBBh0CS3PUiDiRSNeW72p7NbsyCUmv0YqSF1bjFmFmhxKPgHZvygtt M58w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531jrUystqvZDHAFt1tLUbKwg06C05ggLkRhmz7eG768g5TX4SUS jdn13WeyWH8JtH1uZvroWtFbig==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzjXUPwk7MiG8cfbElaKtu5wa1VeAQOBmaez9dhngF3pki+fApVOkXJG6V5tJxvRAMTVkUQiQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:13c8:: with SMTP id p8mr14810445qtk.162.1634068655316;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23sm6771089qtv.58.2021.10.12.12.57.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:57:33 -0400
Cc: Colin Perkins , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Martin Thomson , Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:57:41 -0000

Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?

Brian

> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear > wrote:
>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons =
such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>>=20
>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting =
where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an =
exceptional=20
> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would =
cause /any/ problems?
>>>=20
>>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunteer =
group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated =
with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply =
the=20
> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits of =
their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we shouldn't =
either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community like that.
>>>=20
>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.=20
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that =
publish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and =
the appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a =
qualified replacement.=20
>=20
> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is not =
at=20
> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly specialised =
knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly not part of =
this discussion).
>=20
> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very =
generous amount of time.
>=20
>   Brian
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 12 13:06:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275753A07A2 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:06:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mm5ZZoS1csaa for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 210B93A0787 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id h196so274470iof.2 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o9M0MIwigByoGACDprAx8kFpGd1uyoGW8M/3/JaKy0U=; b=ez1EUIR1FzcOpZvMsh84p1TITzxIjiJ4FcepvYHGAyycG2o+cV9l7kqx8VoPsKk0rl W031dDgEMRJq4itoD8bwQ2dvGGOeQFf4F4dk8GaSBelIfN3md1XFaGRBDMpwighPyfAq O8O4kGOdg10lJVSXvAHNi9scEKyDHJf/VpSTxkm0HrOI0j7N9tbi+IGcQ/5JkOgnjUU6 8tW+ImlFeV4P4znbTE8K5H+z0bOk7E96cy1BmxCaM3ZNTQwIIOyr6i5NiW/eTez4FYd5 4J9TWfCgm+awXYc/tRcmLI9j8MLhZ7i2O1j2tE4tmY5HCAxe4fZNTZeFl7izLbNNkZDX N2oA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o9M0MIwigByoGACDprAx8kFpGd1uyoGW8M/3/JaKy0U=; b=6pO2wErpIftEx44kBpjniz1ZV5YoxL8DDH6GRzq1KwO4NHJajFDOCLNkW4l/tMlA2k yspir+sU781nKgt48bKzo08pdCZWhVu3PHADQvwDrMVVuRjfLPgEzbg0wEHsTOXdJEQn 3wl5wXxwSLSkE6Yh5qHuWmlxNVYqKJ47I01/p5ChYYRWXW8N7ROlyUF2cz+RXevllE90 RDxQGewpU1zjzim8JXBOFX9nSCbOAQKO/Z3LZKPfUrlkEimForeqiW1Hi3mg8HaA5Au2 cfWqd4CHLNcLKZEN7gjIVyJpxA92FJ+0RucDO/KcFOJPhlFk7PCISTX1vtbZD4+MLcsU thPQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531O5707OCseGtvfwjUeQIaPv4wtQ8LQgJhX1qzZ2BDXdLpZ9nAd oLJct/ssVtMR0xX2Ne1nYUup18MriOgtRhqpOEmghA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwljBcrS2KvnYrrp35HRtZuGBrlWEfHfUuzWzTUuwFyqwCOI/Ov63EV9YIWHQxwS6JLlzrifIiN3um5Sl0s2Y=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:db0d:: with SMTP id t13mr4750182ioc.149.1634069171971;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com> 
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:05:35 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Brian Rosen 
Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org,  Peter Saint-Andre , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= ,  Colin Perkins , Martin Thomson , Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000088bc5705ce2d6057"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:06:20 -0000

--00000000000088bc5705ce2d6057
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think it's adequate, but I also don't think it's a crisis if it takes 6
months for things to be approved.

-Ekr


On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:57 PM Brian Rosen  wrote:

> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
>
> Brian
>
> > On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
> >>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear  lear@lear.ch>> wrote:
> >>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
> >>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons =
such as
> this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
> >>>>
> >>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting
> where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an
> exceptional
> > emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would
> cause /any/ problems?
> >>>
> >>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunteer =
group =E2=80=93
> has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated with one another, to
> evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
> > height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits of
> their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we shouldn't
> either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community like that.
> >>>
> >> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
> >>
> >> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that pu=
blish in
> the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the appointin=
g
> body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a qualified
> replacement.
> >
> > We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is not
> at
> > all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly specialised
> knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly not part of this
> discussion).
> >
> > So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very generous
> amount of time.
> >
> >   Brian
> >
> > --
> > Rfced-future mailing list
> > Rfced-future@iab.org
> > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--00000000000088bc5705ce2d6057
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I think it's adequate, but I also don't think=
 it's a crisis if it takes 6 months for things to be approved.

-Ekr


On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:57 PM =
Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net&=
gt; wrote:
Is th=
ere anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?



Brian



> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:

>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch <mailto:lear@lear.ch>> wrote:

>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:

>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

>>>>> 

>>>>> <no hats>

>>>>> 

>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:

>>>>>> 

>>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six mont=
hs, for reasons such as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.<=
br>
>>>>> 

>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to st=
op work.

>>>> 

>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you exp=
ecting where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an ex=
ceptional 

> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would =
cause /any/ problems?

>>> 

>>> Sorry- wrong question.=C2=A0 If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 AN=
Y volunteer group =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negot=
iated with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply=
 the 

> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits of=
 their labors.=C2=A0 No business would tolerate such a delay, and we should=
n't either.=C2=A0 You simply cannot delay the will of the community lik=
e that.

>>> 

>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree. 

>> 

>> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities tha=
t publish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and th=
e appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a qual=
ified replacement. 

> 

> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is=
 not at 

> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly speciali=
sed knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly not part of th=
is discussion).

> 

> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very=
 generous amount of time.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

> 

> -- 

> Rfced-future mailing list

> Rfced-future=
@iab.org

> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-fut=
ure



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--00000000000088bc5705ce2d6057--


From nobody Tue Oct 12 13:07:47 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF683A0787 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QzT5ZfS5ztMw for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:07:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BD853A086A for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id m26so500212pff.3 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3jyUk7klhwfcGZeZhux+s3oMP9CLn5A/QJUU/GIpNIY=; b=BvZi1MpBiGbpNHZ4fC3JbQoEevOLoAPwcCq4/+9ix1egvnm04+wNOhnJBiuDjFLLca hDbr/85fkzc5Xyp9DH/cshzvbVj68BFhRALbKxZV1Tzp8/cgY+r37WrCYHojJpazpl7G 428nD95iIhoUBZu1FUly13biCRtkdxkzsEOTn+aJHpXnbKgujpEAoQ6T1xr0bqyTcjwi 6fsFCJX2QfpRUaKLew5GMt/Z2C8hEKlIwxkXgS5rnTGGjet1KI8zm15B179mtLDSRIsG QO7YR0rGKnwKczDy0hKV25h+cFkIi8B8gp3c/jSgeBw3QxFaYRjuuTUs9qBR4qdvMSsG Q+4g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3jyUk7klhwfcGZeZhux+s3oMP9CLn5A/QJUU/GIpNIY=; b=UkHGP3qvxghovuLCcT2vLRSWON/acV7wfNl7z4vqF3xChHEgdj650X88obAtmi5Iib qQKvODJxvXlaI3yyvSXOiVq2Fjbhstku1y7dkLOVpzXfHLK5lk3tHPT+oJ3yFe7oYCy6 PFvhClZ2XTsFEUY3VHNJ4YMSXM2USV5oMCqYeETR+eMBzrwIz8wO9wSnacla6ZachGlk b+xEWfoh8f/HfKIX4hI0xs5EQydosCrHqL0TYIH3CJiY8szqS5n62qVyqtFjR1hMViLN ev7+30MG/cT4aGyypGMnRyR2MeED7nw9w77KoWgwyxDft8He+JNIAae8XlTeHb0/IKTp twkg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530H3SqFO3w9TFo86Vmu19kHaVvwDaVimVxInYpfgq1vhhnOrQBO +tNW81ArIx5qFemY5DWczefzMTLsBD/ySg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz7nLsksXeVY0pmfSfFZG+9SXsnxHRyolYaST10/9wZnW/yDneRrPEup1pbRCFfxaI+q2bEAQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a62:3881:0:b0:44b:6639:6c20 with SMTP id f123-20020a623881000000b0044b66396c20mr33526856pfa.78.1634069257563;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:07:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t125sm1986367pfc.119.2021.10.12.13.07.36 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:07:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org> <8dd4f347-271a-0768-bcfb-256904528f68@stpeter.im>  <1658a43e-8be8-4f94-0cb2-05e34d695a21@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <81e6d110-83e0-beb3-4717-0d467f72fbfb@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:07:34 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1658a43e-8be8-4f94-0cb2-05e34d695a21@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:07:45 -0000

Peter,

Below...
On 13-Oct-21 08:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/12/21 1:27 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:21, Peter Saint-Andre  wrot=
e:
>>> On 10/12/21 1:10 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre  wr=
ote:
>>>>> On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrot=
e:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>>>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>>>>>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>>>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>>>>>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>>>>>>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>>>>>>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>>>>>>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>>>>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>>>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>>>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>>>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>>>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't that enough?
>>>>>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according=20
to a method of their own choosing.
>>>>>> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify exi=
sting usage, not to define a new term.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in =
part because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities ar=
e). However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is on =
the RSAB.
>>>> Maybe I=E2=80=99m confused, but I thought the point of this thread w=
as to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as you note bel=
ow, a definition of the stream representatives for the RSAB.
>>>
>>> But, in general, what are the responsibilities of stream managers? Fo=
r instance, is the stream manager on the escalation path for issues that =
come up between an author and the RPC? Is the stream manager a point of c=
ontact for authors within their stream regarding authoring, tooling, stre=
am-specific policies, etc.?
>>
>> Isn=E2=80=99t this already defined? My understanding is that the exist=
ing RFCs already specify this, but are just a little vague on exactly who=20
the stream managers are.
>=20
> As John's note uncovered, the existing RFCs don't specify this. Stream =

> managers are mentioned in RFC 6635 with a reference to RFC 4844, but=20
> neither defines the responsibilities of the managers, except that 6635 =

> says "the stream manager for each stream is responsible for the content=20

> of that stream" (and a few other small statements), but nothing=20
> definitional as far as I can see.

Our draft says "The stream manager for each stream is responsible
for the content of that stream."

How about adding:

"and is designated by the body responsible for that stream."

I don't really see any need to say more in this document. Leave each stre=
am to answer Lars's question.

    Brian


From nobody Tue Oct 12 13:25:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDFC53A082F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cglT9SlFl-zN for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 102153A081F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id bi9so220511qkb.11 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qiNvDfk/7pfZm1JpSxviLQYmS27nXRuc1RlaMmp0tSY=; b=qwoo8ZnaM8TgdYgvRLCgCZRBF5t87xeRP3m/4srmF6oNrWqaRvUgUBfXo/tEGV/DWR +finKSxFVRcTHlU+UC3G4IMMn7bb/BbKx0FWYrmeeL0vBCYuQdr87AFArjbfKKwzmjnc a+wmhJyx7M3kbPpbN5ub3/qMycC6ME8QPqiB8dJrWao/wIxLXvmeyHS0BH6q1x7stHGg xw5KbCr+EOENGg/RaAShjU1p5u+X/WVDEqqK4eRh1atnmSq3Y1FwuEO8oPA0Bb7ITLfp eztLScOUnOIXIL2B/5A9VA7it8obvXFF9v822jRzzr5JqCM1Xq4cjDoPcF7gQxNsBeMY uzcg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qiNvDfk/7pfZm1JpSxviLQYmS27nXRuc1RlaMmp0tSY=; b=Jo/SMUJGAPocNf49DCtCpF6o9EPTJC6GD1FzLjYx88R5c1A8rEFTHjv0HJFI5NrI27 Lsy3b7BfPgAD3JfEEnQ3W/O7gvqCCwnnMe5UIbAT58LCtikw3inzVGYBn8OhERHAMOqk OpTDs9OwLx/p33Jc3bYnBA078j4e06nOAWrGbXQJvXd6IKiRPYobgNM2n90pNNkPH/th RrHwT61xZySTCcJd2oBuT75pv2pKmvV16+82ZERIKxAQNvnPTohd4aXIW+7Eq6koYVsA Fqd8RUsGyHwFN9fWhR1qT1u12UEgHr1qLeinNQ4ILzbXMOFGu5uCINa9suPM8oCWEtWo J2ag==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530bb5CofEyr0Lm+OzOx3D2/FXSudLL/ywex3H509nMT5SO4T9PJ AD6y3USRsGKQmEfxb3k/r9TBEhIQMZYfbC+A5yo=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+j4IEOj/rdgNvX45OGMnGNzNxTW1xvJvA21g8AKz0iwfnKN+bewOJ5aEWrWqfUcS01BkZVw==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:bca:: with SMTP id 193mr22464634qkl.448.1634070339332;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:25:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t11sm4867332qkm.92.2021.10.12.13.25.38 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:25:38 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com> 
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:25:48 -0000

Hi -

This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this argument.    
I anticipate that there will be very few documents passed through this 
process - maybe one or two per year if that.   The voting schedule (and 
for that matter the actual votes) for such documents will be known weeks 
if not months in advance, if for no other reason than a stream 
representative might want to take the temperature of its respective room 
prior to casting their vote.   Taking such temperature does not require 
6 months.  For that matter it does not require 3 months.   If there's a 
vacancy, then the RSAB asks the chair of the sending organization to 
provide a vote to be cast.  That chair can either cast it solo, or go 
and poll the organization - but that part of the process is not an RFCED 
issue, but an issue for the individual organization to decide.

There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the behalf 
of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utterly ignore the 
process would have already been going on for at least 6 months and 
probably for a year or two.

So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.

Later, Mike



On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
>
> Brian
>
>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear > wrote:
>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>> I’d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons such as this. There’s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an exceptional
>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would cause /any/ problems?
>>>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group – ANY volunteer group – has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated with one another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community like that.
>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
>>>
>>> It’s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that publish in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a qualified replacement.
>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is not at
>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly specialised knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly not part of this discussion).
>>
>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very generous amount of time.
>>
>>    Brian
>>
>> -- 
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



From nobody Tue Oct 12 13:37:29 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB8D83A0877 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZB57vbAuCYtN for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:37:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5C323A0875 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id c20so627000qtb.2 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language :references:to:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E47eJRtvhB2CjoQSYxABGfu7g7ci5bVNmijujx5XHDA=; b=0UDgzG+Goc+ELXekKuW2SFJ1ohACqeC/uVb7q/0p8NkQgHZZSddtT1+uIsz0PC+nHR 9+sWf7EHWvkfg19KqWeWtZ5VmDdfnCxsMfDfKsuGhKj2hIFKweiLz9VRT9vJLLNZdsjb DdpzadokR+9d0FtBEKXousdFvnB4RpT9EYjWOuRCrZyMwiTwh7ra39zdQKwV/m/johid PDUqKimFKWIVanN+vZ7rinfDD7e0sWu9fis4exPPTkIcsDjWnZNfvlYPNW3xUr+i+In7 XZ5A0WpS0xSz8sVcjYu8DjcAk7Qu9L+RgmEBfs+sYnWzdNckByigah4Ciyx2d8ows3rz AM9Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:references:to:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=E47eJRtvhB2CjoQSYxABGfu7g7ci5bVNmijujx5XHDA=; b=eKt+sVzZMXn/Gs8sH0wGvPmoQ8qgkQwFp5bRrKhGzc770dSDbthyk7MlMGT+b/klkR T85RCwsG4mRHDH0+XZgeQzrjTeT2NL/RdhbH1ZM1gVdB4gToB8uC2e0RQ1NoOo92ds+M hUgG2RpeRQ4UmpvXBgUg/B/U+SGYc+bHhJ2jl33E1j1LWaXtJPuaxHvDoJfxZZFX4RPc 8hXySir1etsmANDn4tZQuzofNogMsxd85gGpkV1SVtmmjCtMwItIRoeogGwBRMnf8CFY zi1vkQ/lK4Mx0/1Tdtti1vRP/hAsWItrwhLnzuOq9ZRvZYlIyKm9NOeqE3yHakngQCy8 w2BA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531rY/bCVWOPka9v93cjapj/r342TqVdgotNmE4+YYA/HrzqVW8O hvllXrkilaeQa6vTNAb7lxJ+W6yWOPel5FQXoTY=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyn0wOuflLD3W1S9FtqmnQqWtNzw9O9X4D00SNTsK76DT+rcpDIh27rk1bjOWkz/lJlmme0MQ==
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5385:: with SMTP id x5mr24644629qtp.105.1634071039430;  Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g27sm6052965qtm.1.2021.10.12.13.37.18 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:37:18 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com>
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:37:27 -0000

Sorry - for clarity, I mean 3 months from the time the document is 
placed for a vote, not from the time a vacancy occurs.

Mike


On 10/12/2021 4:25 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
> Hi -
>
> This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this 
> argument.    I anticipate that there will be very few documents passed 
> through this process - maybe one or two per year if that. The voting 
> schedule (and for that matter the actual votes) for such documents 
> will be known weeks if not months in advance, if for no other reason 
> than a stream representative might want to take the temperature of its 
> respective room prior to casting their vote.   Taking such temperature 
> does not require 6 months.  For that matter it does not require 3 
> months.   If there's a vacancy, then the RSAB asks the chair of the 
> sending organization to provide a vote to be cast.  That chair can 
> either cast it solo, or go and poll the organization - but that part 
> of the process is not an RFCED issue, but an issue for the individual 
> organization to decide.
>
> There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the 
> behalf of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utterly 
> ignore the process would have already been going on for at least 6 
> months and probably for a year or two.
>
> So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.
>
> Later, Mike
>
>
>
> On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear >>>> > wrote:
>>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>> I’d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons such 
>>>>>>>> as this. There’s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting 
>>>>>> where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an 
>>>>>> exceptional
>>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, 
>>> would cause /any/ problems?
>>>>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group – ANY volunteer group 
>>>>> – has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated with one 
>>>>> another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
>>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits 
>>> of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we 
>>> shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community 
>>> like that.
>>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
>>>>
>>>> It’s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that publish 
>>>> in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the 
>>>> appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find 
>>>> a qualified replacement.
>>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is 
>>> not at
>>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly 
>>> specialised knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly 
>>> not part of this discussion).
>>>
>>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very 
>>> generous amount of time.
>>>
>>>    Brian
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
>


From nobody Tue Oct 12 14:13:41 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0833A0937 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9xRUQgLD3jCz for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08AD53A091F for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maP5U-000BXM-9f; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:13:28 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:13:21 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Colin Perkins , Peter Saint-Andre 
cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <09BF56EBFADC096E148511EF@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:13:40 -0000

--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 20:10 +0100 Colin Perkins
 wrote:

>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote: On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin
>> Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> ...
>>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream
>>>>> Manager to act as an administrative point of contact on
>>>>> behalf of that stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB
>>>>> Chair, IETF Chair, IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their
>>>>> delegates, respectively.
>>>> 
>>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not
>>>> only no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by
>>>> default) but how those groups choose their representatives
>>>> should not be within scope for this group or its document.
>>>> 
>>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>> 
>>>> NEW:
>>>> 
>>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>> 
>>>> Isn't that enough?
>>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager
>>> according to a method of their own choosing. The intention
>>> was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify existing
>>> usage, not to define a new term.
>> 
>> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager
>> is (in part because it's not clear to me at least what their
>> responsibilities are). However, I do think we can define what
>> a stream representative is on the RSAB.
> 
> Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the point of this thread
> was to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as
> you note below, a definition of the stream representatives for
> the RSAB.

Well, using the IESG at just an example, maybe I'm wrong but my
sense is that we've got contexts in which "stream manager"
sometimes refers to the person (often the IETF Chair but not
always) who is the IESG's lead on RFC Editor matters and others
in which the term refers to the entire IESG as the body that
makes decisions about publication in the streams.

I was suggesting making up and using a new, well-defined, term
to avoid the potential for future confusion even if we precisely
define "stream management" now.

   john




From nobody Tue Oct 12 14:24:28 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3656E3A09B9 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.895
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s7rDvZYhVLz0 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 912673A09B8 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19CLOIKH028004 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:24:18 +0100
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524264604A for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:24:18 +0100 (BST)
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468A246043 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:24:18 +0100 (BST)
Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:24:18 +0100 (BST)
Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (84.93.166.80.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net [84.93.166.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19CLOGlT018817 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:24:17 +0100
Reply-To: 
From: "Adrian Farrel" 
To: 
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org> <09BF56EBFADC096E148511EF@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <09BF56EBFADC096E148511EF@PSB>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:24:17 +0100
Organization: Old Dog Consulting
Message-ID: <020b01d7bfaf$84313b80$8c93b280$@olddog.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0
Content-Language: en-gb
Thread-Index: AQIwihD4/efsyf8BJa33PNelN+gcZwJh9+XXAkgJJrECnftCcAJhWo2uAiE0taADG6C88QJuJINKAfVYIK0BtXdbyKp2UGTQ
X-Originating-IP: 84.93.166.80
X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk
X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00
X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26464.003
X-TM-AS-Result: No--12.926-10.0-31-10
X-imss-scan-details: No--12.926-10.0-31-10
X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26464.003
X-TMASE-Result: 10--12.925800-10.000000
X-TMASE-MatchedRID: qsaWi0FWcYvxIbpQ8BhdbMGNvKPnBgOazVE3gQTykCpQKAQSutQYXJyx oZK5UFNt98IAqY3n+VA8Zp3xik1JZ9sMsuLtkl1tyAGbkGU4ZS7gHhCN7Wx4VYPLx3vY4vNi7l1 PoQbiPj9QVep1TdINkI6S9ESgFkF82X53LeVAc3FFwy22bW6GAw51SAUUhKsU4TWlihdnJ0EhgV U1JTxZmIdkn3/bZCtIzcTsoe1OKs3Mb22XrRFMnNkHtQ1akR8vGbJMFqqIm9zk1kyQDpEj8AQ9n 8U23GDfd50FJ4bOBekWHIQM6TbbE4zdbv6kMzgKWS2u1ZE9NEBYN1akkye0qBbozYDXkvVAEvxI MTYIkUgFyrRctsqcOHo0/mi7Koa49n66fRk1FhzSHV8DthFT2GP/IYHnyZ+wMZC3ZFuwuarCInB cPMK8wA6VgcGFzUusV1M/l3DgYRGJoYidDXNhTbbQFsbjObJeIiTd2l7lf6E/gf7afIrQUxbjWL ZHubLuQIiHyLwWAYilwJEDbx2uyUTxRn00AyiLKOqF690ZRVhtEwCdRLjQZuCAU8+z4gBpVkEHz L0JqHMOkUXyIPxN/6W6Ctebkgpw0iILwdNxhJLH9K2ZqHQWln0tCKdnhB58FSneOA+tQshTZDOr zlZ+cHQdJ7XfU86e4kYXbobxJbKl/MtrTwS4UB+DwYWCRMZ3jds5ue1DW7WvgdoLHybogHClNoz 9tHLbnVV5VpE7Ffc=
X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:24:26 -0000

I don't know if it has been said before (I'm not really reading every email
on this list), but for a significant period of time there were "stream
managers meetings" convened by the RSE roughly quarterly. At these meeting
the IETF chair, IAB chair, IRTF chair, and ISE met with the RSE and RPC to
cover any issues concerning RFCs in general and the interactions between the
streams. These meetings have fallen out of fashion, although the RPC has
attempted to convene them a couple of times when.

Since, to the best of my knowledge, delegates were never sent to these
meetings, it was clear that those four people considered themselves to be
the stream managers.

I am unclear why we are attempting to create process around this. The buck
must stop somewhere.

Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: Rfced-future  On Behalf Of John C
Klensin
Sent: 12 October 2021 22:13
To: Colin Perkins ; Peter Saint-Andre

Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?



--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 20:10 +0100 Colin Perkins
 wrote:

>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:06, Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote: On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin
>> Perkins wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> ...
>>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream
>>>>> Manager to act as an administrative point of contact on
>>>>> behalf of that stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB
>>>>> Chair, IETF Chair, IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their
>>>>> delegates, respectively.
>>>> 
>>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not
>>>> only no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by
>>>> default) but how those groups choose their representatives
>>>> should not be within scope for this group or its document.
>>>> 
>>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>> 
>>>> NEW:
>>>> 
>>>> 	The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>> 	IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>> 	method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>> 	as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>> 	stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>> 
>>>> Isn't that enough?
>>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager
>>> according to a method of their own choosing. The intention
>>> was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify existing
>>> usage, not to define a new term.
>> 
>> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager
>> is (in part because it's not clear to me at least what their
>> responsibilities are). However, I do think we can define what
>> a stream representative is on the RSAB.
> 
> Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the point of this thread
> was to define what is the stream manager? We already have, as
> you note below, a definition of the stream representatives for
> the RSAB.

Well, using the IESG at just an example, maybe I'm wrong but my
sense is that we've got contexts in which "stream manager"
sometimes refers to the person (often the IETF Chair but not
always) who is the IESG's lead on RFC Editor matters and others
in which the term refers to the entire IESG as the body that
makes decisions about publication in the streams.

I was suggesting making up and using a new, well-defined, term
to avoid the potential for future confusion even if we precisely
define "stream management" now.

   john



-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 12 14:34:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67343A0A7B for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sTfmgeVKP4Tg for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0689A3A0A73 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:34:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maPQ7-000BYz-VT; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:34:47 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:34:41 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Colin Perkins 
cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <3CD2B071039CF9023581D47F@PSB>
In-Reply-To: 
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>   
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:34:57 -0000

--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 13:06 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
 wrote:

>...
> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is
> (in part because it's not clear to me at least what their
> responsibilities are). However, I do think we can define what
> a stream representative is on the RSAB.

Ok.  THen let's stop talking about stream managers and any other
term that we are going to define in a way that is both
unambiguous and consistent with existing or historical practice.

>>> If we can't trust those bodies to make timely initial
>>> appointments, much of the discussion about vacancies gets
>>> more complicated.

>>> And, reprising an earlier conversation, if we intend "from
>>> their membership" rather than recruiting members of the
>>> community, that phrase should go in there.  Or we can leave
>>> that to the discretion of the bodies too.
>> 
>> If we go that route, I'd suggest IAB and IESG select one of
>> their members to be their stream manager, IRTF Chair and ISE
>> are the managers for the respective streams but can delegate.
> 
> I think that's effectively what our current text says.

Yes, modulo another distinction.  There is a significant
distinction between our piling this on the Chairs and then
saying "they can delegate" versus our saying "up to the body".
"More duties, responsibilities, and power to the Chairs" is not
necessarily a good idea and should be beyond the scope of this
effort to decide anyway.  So...

> We might want to make these matters even clearer, such as:
> 
>### 
> 
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
> 
> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF
> chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IESG

Why not just 

	* As the stream representative for the IETF stream, a
	delegate appointed by the IESG from their membership.

with similar language for the IAB.  I don't have a strong option
as to whether a specific role should be called out for the IRTF
or ISE.  They may be different.  And we should decide whether
specifying the pool of people who can be selected is important.

> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB
> chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF
> chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>    Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
> 
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period.

If the IESG and IAB must make appointments from their membership
(for which there are several good arguments) than what purpose
does an open nominations period serve?  And, for the IRTF and
ISE, it seems clear that someone who can really represent those
streams (and hence comes from within (however the chairs define
that) is more appropriate than someone from the broader
community... so, again, open nominations may be, at best, a
waste of time.

> If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's
> term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated
> at all
> times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary
> on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE
> is
> incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the
> IAB (as
> the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively)
> shall
> appoint a temporary delegate.

wfm.

best,
   john


From nobody Tue Oct 12 14:43:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357CB3A0AE6 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n-H500743IUi for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:43:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E9B33A0AE4 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maPYn-000BZg-Kd; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:43:45 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:43:38 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <1F6D3DB4262F71D43AF312AF@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <81e6d110-83e0-beb3-4717-0d467f72fbfb@gmail.com>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org> <8dd4f347-271a-0768-bcfb-256904528f68@stpeter.im>  <1658a43e-8be8-4f94-0cb2-05e34d695a21@stpeter.im> <81e6d110-83e0-beb3-4717-0d467f72fbfb@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:43:49 -0000

--On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 09:07 +1300 Brian E Carpenter
 wrote:

>> As John's note uncovered, the existing RFCs don't specify
>> this. Stream  managers are mentioned in RFC 6635 with a
>> reference to RFC 4844, but  neither defines the
>> responsibilities of the managers, except that 6635  says "the
>> stream manager for each stream is responsible for the content 
> 
>> of that stream" (and a few other small statements), but
>> nothing  definitional as far as I can see.
> 
> Our draft says "The stream manager for each stream is
> responsible for the content of that stream."

But that very nearly contradicts the notion that the stream
manager is a person.   In particular, for the IESG, it would
imply that the IETF Chair (or designee, if Peter's prior text
suggestion remains intact, suddenly has move votes that any
other IESG member and/or veto power relative to document
approval.  That would be, at least IMO, unprecedented.  The
responsibility for the content of the IETF Stream lies in the
IESG, not an individual.   Similarly for the content of the IAB
Stream: either the IAB has collective responsibility or I've lot
track what what that body is about.

> How about adding:
> 
> "and is designated by the body responsible for that stream."

And that is clearly about an individual.

> I don't really see any need to say more in this document.
> Leave each stream to answer Lars's question.

Agreed, as long as we either get rid of the "stream manager"
terminology for at least one of those two functions of get rid
of the term entirely.

   john



From nobody Tue Oct 12 15:40:38 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE143A0D63 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:40:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqXenStUzFT9 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4120B3A0D58 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F97F4112A50; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoHOfOxXmpdS; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E8BB4112A44; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:39:19 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:39:13 +1300
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <7EF5957E-1453-4CCF-88AF-1722497C9CB8@ietf.org>
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com> <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:40:37 -0000

One minor addition that I would like and as previously mentioned:

"In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended =
period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever =
recruitment process it considers appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE acts as =
the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment."


Jay

> On 12/10/2021, at 6:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> As promised during the most recent meeting, I've posted -04 today. =
Please do note that Section 3.1.2 contains the following warning:
>=20
>   OPEN ISSUES: Discussion continues regarding (1) operation of the =
RSAB
>   in the case of vacancies (ISSUE 82) and (2) quorum requirements for
>   voting by the RSAB (ISSUE 84).  The text regarding these issues is
>   provisional and is subject to change.
>=20
> However, this version should enable us to close many other issues.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:53:12 -0700
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: Peter Saint-Andre 
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Revision:	04
> Title:		RFC Editor Model (Version 3)
> Document date:	2021-10-11
> Group:		iab
> Pages:		26
> URL: =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
> Status: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
> Htmlized: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Diff: =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes updated processes for defining and
>   implementing policies regarding the RFC Series as a whole and thus
>   specifies version 3 of RFC Editor Model.  The model defines two =
high-
>   level tasks related to the RFC Series.  Policy definition is the
>   responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which =
produces
>   policy proposals that are subject to approval by the RFC Series
>   Approval Board (RSAB).  Policy implementation is primarily the
>   responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the =
ultimate
>   authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF
>   LLC).
>=20
>   This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
>   RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Tue Oct 12 15:56:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1C13A0E25; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykHp83vMzN1k; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5EB03A0E23; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maQgg-000BfT-7g; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:55:58 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:55:51 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Jay Daley , Peter Saint-Andre 
cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <901D9D61A1055330CFBD4654@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <7EF5957E-1453-4CCF-88AF-1722497C9CB8@ietf.org>
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com> <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im> <7EF5957E-1453-4CCF-88AF-1722497C9CB8@ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:56:07 -0000

--On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:39 +1300 Jay Daley
 wrote:

> One minor addition that I would like and as previously
> mentioned:
> 
> "In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for
> an extended period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary
> RSCE through whatever recruitment process it considers
> appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all aspects
> during their term of appointment."

Jay,

Shouldn't that be in conjunction with the RSCE (if possible) and
the RSAB?  

While I assume it would be unlikely (either by accident or
deliberate action), 
one can imagine an Temporary/ Acting RSCE, presumably with the
best of intentions but a shortage of expertise and/or a
different philosophy, moving things off in a different direction
or making a sufficient mess of things to make it impossible --or
at least unattractive-- for the actual RSCE to return.

That would not be of concern if we have stripped the RSCE of
sufficient authority to make such actions by the Temporary one
impossible, but I don't think we are there yet.  Indeed, even
John Levine, with much more limited authority, could have made a
considerable hash of things were he either less competent or
less careful.

best,
  john


From nobody Tue Oct 12 16:00:05 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069A33A0EC7 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MDB0AXgbSoc3 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 909C73A0EA9 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF594112A50; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NeE9pOIYjNVD; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A99874112A44; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:59:55 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: <901D9D61A1055330CFBD4654@PSB>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:59:52 +1300
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <399D6F27-F215-4601-A1E0-5F79A7A08DDE@ietf.org>
References: <163397479264.5670.17019466568802248159@ietfa.amsl.com> <761cb825-9f87-b018-351d-3c51eb57bbc9@stpeter.im> <7EF5957E-1453-4CCF-88AF-1722497C9CB8@ietf.org> <901D9D61A1055330CFBD4654@PSB>
To: John C Klensin 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:00:03 -0000

> On 13/10/2021, at 11:55 AM, John C Klensin  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:39 +1300 Jay Daley
>  wrote:
>=20
>> One minor addition that I would like and as previously
>> mentioned:
>>=20
>> "In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for
>> an extended period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary
>> RSCE through whatever recruitment process it considers
>> appropriate.  A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all aspects
>> during their term of appointment."
>=20
> Jay,
>=20
> Shouldn't that be in conjunction with the RSCE (if possible)

Yes but I don=E2=80=99t think that has to be said.

> and
> the RSAB? =20

No.

>=20
> While I assume it would be unlikely (either by accident or
> deliberate action),=20
> one can imagine an Temporary/ Acting RSCE, presumably with the
> best of intentions but a shortage of expertise and/or a
> different philosophy, moving things off in a different direction
> or making a sufficient mess of things to make it impossible --or
> at least unattractive-- for the actual RSCE to return.

That would have been true for the RSE but the RCSE is a very different =
role and the overall structure is very different, so the RCSE does not =
have the power to do this.

>=20
> That would not be of concern if we have stripped the RSCE of
> sufficient authority to make such actions by the Temporary one
> impossible, but I don't think we are there yet.  Indeed, even
> John Levine, with much more limited authority, could have made a
> considerable hash of things were he either less competent or
> less careful.

As above.

Jay
>=20
> best,
>  john
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Tue Oct 12 17:43:29 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5363A14A4 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZC49X6Msgpwn for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:43:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1410108.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.141.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 213793A14A3 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=X7bNHiJnbtNc7LRsOJWjZy9CXa9Fc49rQ6gWzj4D8DUqxJP0R/Elea3XemODmL/2up9oUznmupbqb15fBOVf/iu7syO3FOKiymIxC5fokzoAkD196jmeDWbZQ/t2/LQQogzyH3VklRJ+vlQjvXIE77wMgs/P4yV6kKiXZuSS0GJ7YG0lGapPTETHJlZmOlJ63UZrjZuH1WR+Q05OS1z8jr1XvzLN0guYMsltMd805SkeNRPnJ3u1CedkfWHyLzN5eWtj8JHdzt8t8TruAQg4V3DPULoO/7qkATLuLL/ShpTw27Mq8CdFki8HS/HUWNXNmx1tnHCFB5ZUKSAaILlU8Q==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=5O2l11luqANqabChwAFXNhNdSNx0qVM9Gy+OngKRAtM=; b=EyfOU7uvZvfUxfX36QVJjX5gE6reAF0tDmcEg3ZWrbmOWEuFgphJnayZ86o3tj82PVePnIjGVYGkY0IZImzxT8i56F8PXOjByIYe8ZPrOcMiQH6utiyi7+l+zSoiI79kkCRDJm6wnqZnpUboyYEKpdnmu03SP8DzBQUChMQbBliUwcDgmvmC+obd0NGU6S9L0/yqOC8BVyPltZdw7TOibfmfCd7OjEBcNB5Sb8juVaF10yLOsVSv5ujEWkSinD3gN6qQHzGQIKk5wGWivesrgdxZd/PFfCwq2e/uLbCSIhvgAIkHKtnnAryK8CoFjDMRBjY+Wz4W/+Gc42grWK0EJg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=5O2l11luqANqabChwAFXNhNdSNx0qVM9Gy+OngKRAtM=; b=eGqRNI3ItGdogr+2Lq5STEG9Jap+jyumJqADVNJ3PD9yxKU6J8Yfbwv82LDBRYvpc6FQCl8BCmD90lBLF82KW5ccG5A4oHh9kd4baMH+1/VqyCaD7Pwdbw0+rIuLjU+sHGq1wN0Ir2wIYJ4gpnfkp2l4g3V2CWY42DzK1eNhdgo=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYAPR01MB4575.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:127::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.19; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:43:19 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4587.025; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:43:19 +0000
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Colin Perkins , John C Klensin 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>   
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <0631a2ba-82d1-9b27-d004-dc77e9f9b20b@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:43:16 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TYWPR01CA0012.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:400:a9::17) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [10.146.1.105] (210.160.217.69) by TYWPR01CA0012.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:400:a9::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4608.15 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:43:18 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d5dab92c-c05e-4535-eb9a-08d98de27348
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYAPR01MB4575:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(396003)(136003)(366004)(39840400004)(346002)(376002)(31696002)(66574015)(66556008)(66476007)(83380400001)(86362001)(38100700002)(38350700002)(66946007)(53546011)(52116002)(31686004)(2616005)(36916002)(186003)(956004)(8936002)(508600001)(8676002)(26005)(6486002)(16576012)(316002)(786003)(4326008)(2906002)(110136005)(5660300002)(4001150100001)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?T1prdThzWFR4bktyY2R1QjBUbFI2WHpodW94QjZlakJhaDF3MWhkSGNnOGM5?= =?utf-8?B?a1RvTURJUmJSTlNLT2tlaWVGRnJGYzYvc0JJVmF1KzNZNWZzZkNNU1FHZ0Qx?= =?utf-8?B?VTFLd1RpMmIrUHJEaTBEKzl4ZGVOek1GRjdianh1MnpEUE5WQ1RQR1ZudkRk?= =?utf-8?B?ZEUyWGdkOTUxaVg2ZVVDSVRERzlUWkhydzQzenkyaDNYNWs2NWtFUTdLVEtk?= =?utf-8?B?bW5Zd2gxRlA2ay9zaDNtM1Z1V1pxdEh6ZTRnMFNRclo0ZnRwRFkrdkpmTkt6?= =?utf-8?B?NVAzYUgwSGpuSm9SQkJqNk52d1RtNkxROWprdlFOa2Rtci92dTM4aFpRNjc5?= =?utf-8?B?RFQrU0szSFdLeVoxTnZPYXVqSW5GZTEvdlJiSWM3d0F0TExvZnZESk5CZDVE?= =?utf-8?B?Tm9SM29rdThLMENpWERNQ092MVpwR3BzMGpRODJvbHdLNlBjZGZERXp2Wk9V?= =?utf-8?B?WU5tZS83bkppck9rUEFoSlJTUVRsWVRGN3lUcUxsRXIyRXRxUkhnS053bzdi?= =?utf-8?B?WXoydHRoVkcrMjZUSEMrM3JHRkwwWjFtRFFWMW5NVlh1bWVDRy82RDQ0aUNw?= =?utf-8?B?ZWE2QWs5NUpseG92eEh4T0dYOUxIVDlodzNVM3RWYlFGWDRBUEhMZ3dyOFVR?= =?utf-8?B?eUorMXFidCtlaENLK0dySVBraW04emNTaGNjOTkwQmM4S1BUV3R1T2tlYVAv?= =?utf-8?B?OFF5YzhKbUovaGlmS2lJU1hrczVhVkFmMVU0dlk3QXQxNzhNcnV2QTBPLzdB?= =?utf-8?B?N1V1YndhV08zSFpWOW9pRjk3ODJyU1JYdmQ2UHJrYnFjRWhNK2h0VXk0eFZH?= =?utf-8?B?cUVZalpRS0FLRmNKV0N6Q2J5NVV1SWYwcU04REY4THc3d1Q4MElLZmFuY1hx?= =?utf-8?B?cGRUTGNHY2xqNXg3cXNnTEJjbm83Zlc0Z3M1VUU2RnVGNU5kUWRMSjNXMEtQ?= =?utf-8?B?WGxFd0RzZ0J4K2RJUUhoSzJNTlpmZllPTzdDZkVWTU9QdWtETjVCemVVMTcw?= =?utf-8?B?dDAwbDV3NU4rZFJpQzBENDNWTTlDTWI5TGtJVUlmUHNUQ1BHQkVLeHhhdStB?= =?utf-8?B?Rk1Pa2dQeHBsZ2Y2Z2d2aFdqNURiRjRUQU1HZSsyUXNXeWVmUlppaUtURTNN?= =?utf-8?B?NGJNVEJWUDBucUl5MmxxbGdMMmxXTXo1ZVNOZ1pCSnRta0dWSzJyd3JHMzN2?= =?utf-8?B?UUNKRkJkWS9obnlJUURSVDhMckZxZGUwUlNJY01yTFExdDhuRVcvY0IwUEV1?= =?utf-8?B?UDlUUzAvQzhEMnE2enBLUTluRkJEZ1NPTlhUc1k5T0gvaWlYeUVRYmc4RXhW?= =?utf-8?B?TXVaQW5VcUU3bGVjSjQ0aTVUanRXZWVEQVY2MVg0TUM5TVNJcDcrS3Bjbi9R?= =?utf-8?B?dm84cU5sZFpzeFdVcmU1NXFiZlh5OHJkd2FLeVUvSlFmS1pSNC9OWGNlREpl?= =?utf-8?B?NHhRL01wdGlJNW4rTVp6emRqV2V2NVM4d3R6UUdOTWJXTlFOWENUemY3eStG?= =?utf-8?B?eklJNkRBMWMwZ3JnQkprTkVDemFOWkE4enZJOE1qQ2VNZTdFem5nMkFPOHgv?= =?utf-8?B?QlFESDVsQytUVzdNbHA4bmpOelFmZEplek9VOFdHRFpkdEFhQnVOemRmUW9a?= =?utf-8?B?QmRTaW5QQS92SmY2QTM4NHIyV1orUE16Wi9yZUZnU1lDMk00UE1mK1Y4SHJU?= =?utf-8?B?b1EwcitWVHNUQXFSbmZqd3djZ3d6RnNSa2VTMHFoNUxMSGgwa1FUWHR4MGNm?= =?utf-8?Q?ly+CfVcCbMo1md1WB34AhnVW/UgRb9+LKlSeJPA?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d5dab92c-c05e-4535-eb9a-08d98de27348
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2021 00:43:19.4163 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: Ej+zlhnPfLJFdgTkBalPT28ygNP4C+mh2RmgfFeGvZTs+nMZj7EnqCgCbNN0do+/gG9p1nwcSbQrmAKWMzEb6Q==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYAPR01MB4575
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:43:28 -0000

Sorry to be short, but once more: Can we please get rid of
"such as provision for an open nominations period"?
As I have explained in a previous mail, it gives the wrong impression.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2021-10-13 04:06, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/12/21 12:47 PM, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 18:27, John C Klensin  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 17:33 +0100 Colin Perkins
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB, IESG,
>>>> IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body identifies a Stream Manager
>>>> to act as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>> stream. The Stream Managers are the IAB Chair, IETF Chair,
>>>> IRTF Chair, and ISE, or their delegates, respectively.
>>>
>>> Again borrowing a bit from Mirja's comment, there is  not only
>>> no reason to force this on the IAB Chair (even by default) but
>>> how those groups choose their representatives should not be
>>> within scope for this group or its document.
>>>
>>> So, still preferring "Delegate" or "Representative" to
>>> "Manager", something more like:
>>>
>>> NEW:
>>>
>>>     The approval bodies for the RFC streams are the IAB,
>>>     IESG, IRSG, and ISE. Each approval body designates, by a
>>>     method of its choosing, a Stream Representative to act
>>>     as an administrative point of contact on behalf of that
>>>     stream and member of the RSAB.
>>>
>>> Isn't that enough?
>>
>> No objection to each body selecting their stream manager according to 
>> a method of their own choosing.
>>
>> The intention was to define Stream Manager, though, to clarify 
>> existing usage, not to define a new term.
> 
> I don't think it's up to us to define what a stream manager is (in part 
> because it's not clear to me at least what their responsibilities are). 
> However, I do think we can define what a stream representative is on the 
> RSAB.
> 
>>> If we can't trust those bodies to make timely initial
>>> appointments, much of the discussion about vacancies gets more
>>> complicated.
>>>
>>> And, reprising an earlier conversation, if we intend "from their
>>> membership" rather than recruiting members of the community,
>>> that phrase should go in there.  Or we can leave that to the
>>> discretion of the bodies too.
>>
>> If we go that route, I’d suggest IAB and IESG select one of their 
>> members to be their stream manager, IRTF Chair and ISE are the 
>> managers for the respective streams but can delegate.
> 
> I think that's effectively what our current text says.
> 
> We might want to make these matters even clearer, such as:
> 
> ###
> 
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
> 
> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>    Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
> 
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing delegates, such as provision for an open nominations
> period. If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
> any reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body
> should name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all
> times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary
> on a temporary basis.  In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
> incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as
> the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall
> appoint a temporary delegate.
> 
> ###
> 
> Peter
> 

-- 
Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst
Department of Intelligent Information Technology
College of Science and Engineering
Aoyama Gakuin University
Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara
252-5258 Japan


From nobody Tue Oct 12 22:36:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A503A12EF for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p1ZY8EqXniDv for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73D9C3A1315 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1maWwV-000CJ7-Nh; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 01:36:43 -0400
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 01:36:38 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <8D94139E2236559CBE16BE07@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <020b01d7bfaf$84313b80$8c93b280$@olddog.co.uk>
References:  <2082140CFA192FE9B0B4BA3E@PSB> <8eed8e75-24df-84e4-bf5c-1c15f884bb30@lear.ch> <71DB29A8-8E4A-40C0-9F74-230BF7B83D5C@kuehlewind.net> <75ED8190-91B0-4719-86E3-865F7F75CA3F@csperkins.org>    <2ABCA07D-6AEB-4F9D-A268-5AE6C351F39F@csperkins.org> <09BF56EBFADC096E148511EF@PSB> <020b01d7bfaf$84313b80$8c93b280$@olddog.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who are the stream managers?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 05:36:52 -0000

--On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 22:24 +0100 Adrian Farrel
 wrote:

> I don't know if it has been said before (I'm not really
> reading every email on this list), but for a significant
> period of time there were "stream managers meetings" convened
> by the RSE roughly quarterly. At these meeting the IETF chair,
> IAB chair, IRTF chair, and ISE met with the RSE and RPC to
> cover any issues concerning RFCs in general and the
> interactions between the streams. These meetings have fallen
> out of fashion, although the RPC has attempted to convene them
> a couple of times when.
> 
> Since, to the best of my knowledge, delegates were never sent
> to these meetings, it was clear that those four people
> considered themselves to be the stream managers.
> 
> I am unclear why we are attempting to create process around
> this. The buck must stop somewhere.

At least as I understood it, with the RSE structure, those
meetings were mostly advisory and the buck stopped with the RSE.
Borrowing a bit from Jay's note,  with the new arrangement, we
have a weak RSCE (my understanding of Jay's conclusion is that
that the position has too little authority to do any harm and
hence cannot be where the buck stops).  That means the buck
probably now stops with the RSAB (and those stream managers
(whatever that means) and/or the delegates to the RSAB if they
are different).  That, IMO, requires being a bit more clear
about what is intended or that we be explicit that we are
leaving things to be sorted out as things go along in the future.

    john




From nobody Wed Oct 13 09:52:41 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C347F3A0061 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.852
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n5m87wTj6_5S for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1410118.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.141.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54C113A005F for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=GtgV2UXa7uQdEY4oQE0d58ZmhtJjy89oZ9THiRdt7X/a7qc84JeN8lGCM0w30oUQ5ah2Xy+o7bsyJT6tPklhS+l9Yn9qXTV35mVSA5zKr1L7HDnOf1uA7nAFov2BAG0u7mcHhH1eWL0cISj29zCzomGxUBypF54LNZWC56aWwEEzzm8cY0RWh8p4yWrpk2NbViu9VwZfAK5wc0RwFvFYqTJm5D8GUo61vC8UkAUKvEdEPI8ttkijb7nxFSr7OrCNGaru8BJAtMbDPBvjMhPsV/v7sFhsmenI+qzYIEq8vLGI7aa2++ntoeKtoEkqRPj5nStoQKlDVFf4qFaSolWF4A==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=SLAhFbSoTbCD8ujzn4y5CtlUdSXvohGEEK2yiZWSeGk=; b=F6kqA+ncSwTGBlcqr7PN0XqmbNYxsfPEhNgxvk0vmJgMWjQksRHBz4mE7QMJHwctpsMuqqRQCLdoTazP7uAaz6QV6ARJCsPl0/vMGo9RH6GQFqph8K6PVSgrkYkirXOftdcu4GD3LviK5zZs5TzcR5DLZ9qS2Y30QOxbQQ85WEnsITkxWDippcK25mLKQV5NNLI5Fcl1gzA2koG5ZUIkjN38mmaEaknTCv6gfHyLnGRhgEZ5NIAcQ+nIJdMuZgSB7n8sSD+IFv/upuwMqjL1DEQEdcY5TMm+IcbaQv3iG9/4cl0ttsK/hbdAf3RYwKw/xDULKCJG3S+01fmOGVIICA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=SLAhFbSoTbCD8ujzn4y5CtlUdSXvohGEEK2yiZWSeGk=; b=rQBpgKpGsBxq5E4VkHO9vNUG2DJmxhS3rjtvHfsB/WkOuY37uAtBExW4i7/DX6P0WpxeyyWnuoHY6yAw3vyrG++RELdKb9W2Ns0H+Lf1e0QAX7vBJBEqMrdP9JiVHb59+2wAzYkDfgk3O5zNz1z2BHQuOejA4rrvhfqY3yHC32o=
Authentication-Results: iab.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iab.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYAPR01MB3805.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:bd::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4608.16; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:52:27 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4587.025; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:52:27 +0000
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <34578ff2-2ad2-bff5-8855-e4f7fbb0f40c@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 12:38:20 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0
In-Reply-To: <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: ZR0P278CA0116.CHEP278.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:910:20::13) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [IPv6:2a02:1206:4596:1110:a530:e780:c1cb:5c] (2a02:1206:4596:1110:a530:e780:c1cb:5c) by ZR0P278CA0116.CHEP278.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:910:20::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4587.25 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:52:25 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 7b4756d3-d133-4af7-291d-08d98e69d671
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYAPR01MB3805:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(396003)(39850400004)(136003)(346002)(376002)(366004)(6666004)(508600001)(38100700002)(31686004)(2906002)(8676002)(186003)(53546011)(5660300002)(52116002)(316002)(86362001)(786003)(66556008)(966005)(36916002)(4001150100001)(31696002)(2616005)(6486002)(8936002)(66574015)(66946007)(66476007)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?cFZnK2JLNWgzWm9SK25VdHlpc0VrUVk1QldkZmhFNFpiOVhUS01TREYzbzZx?= =?utf-8?B?SlBGY2w1WUczN05oY01hazk4K0xVa0NIemNNbS9UNjFraHY1c0ZNbmMvaktu?= =?utf-8?B?UUNaOVlXa09MMzJMZ2V5OVZjSlF4T3ExcExSZmN4eUxmdmxGaEhrSmJoQlhS?= =?utf-8?B?QmNCa3BINmZFMkw3d25vcU5IeTl3YXJ4RXV3K2pyVU51UkVjaHhwUHRXejk0?= =?utf-8?B?Q3pjR3pnSkE4RDR4RzEzWkZhcUoxVUlJbWk5bFRtWHZsRmlWeVNBamFsVlFC?= =?utf-8?B?MngweGhYRzVURGJBWTJRS25rRUlCVzdrSjNnQ1NUa1czU1ZFb2NuR2JMYmlp?= =?utf-8?B?SjR5VXBJLzl3WEQ4TkI2czFVKy9KTW1rM2lRcnMxSG15REowTEVYUXFPTDRP?= =?utf-8?B?QmFRbXQydTEzc0poeUp5K0dCVms4MkNZUzU4OFMvNHREekM3Z0l3SE9hVExC?= =?utf-8?B?aFBiMGtaamp2YWVtNTI4S05EbTRrUjZWZmltYVROZ2FHWllvNm5WaTBxMTBO?= =?utf-8?B?RUxtbWpBR0YvQUJkTVlzQ00xczF6blVRdk1pSFNhOHUvMDZRckRjTVFET3VN?= =?utf-8?B?MXNGNk95SGVmajVjWHdDdTZkVHVRT0lPV240SVhJbU5LOWROazQ4bzFkUklU?= =?utf-8?B?Qk52NTdNYXVnUjRtakg4empHTHJvUklyM0pSQkpEVlpDdmJEMVg3ekQ1dllO?= =?utf-8?B?aWF2WjdlODVFV0t2eTlFTnhVWjF5L01ubExaallYdXZ0NjFFYkd5dFQxNjh3?= =?utf-8?B?SEV6NU9vZ2VsK2ZGOEhBK2ZQaEZSd0FBS2F0U3FBeFFheEg5VlNlamIyREN1?= =?utf-8?B?MjZqUWVlbkh2bk1RNE90R1FDNVZWcWlSUTBjaHFOVWN3b1RpdGJUdDNvSGFQ?= =?utf-8?B?NWpsVWpva2g3aEwwejB5enVnaGIxYThLTGxjc2Q5MmgzSERRMFhJaWN1Vit1?= =?utf-8?B?UDdFRzZNNUJPUHg3MmNoazdsMXVTb3FPbGdCekFJTVRKbStwN1J6Kzl5Nlk0?= =?utf-8?B?cWdoOTJibDdiZWI4S2g4eGdtbnVGVFUwVDRUZkVsR1lmSFR4UkZDWUhPT1Jx?= =?utf-8?B?K2trUnhqTHZ2M3Mzc24xNFc5Smh3eDI5aHJMUWxIdUpJMkpod1ljaXBPSXkv?= =?utf-8?B?YktrL2R1RUJVZ0UvMFhBOVhxL1UwdTFkVlhKMlhOMm9XVnZoWW5wck5NRE92?= =?utf-8?B?TG5ZK2dmMDEyODNKdkh5S01jQTl6cXVlZEdJV3g4cVdGTVdqZ0pndzBxMjBG?= =?utf-8?B?RHMwa05oYURUMndoT0hETGk1cXEwQUhKQmJ4cDUrWkQ2OTE0eGhraW5XSUJU?= =?utf-8?B?R0NOK1JrM2RlUzIvS2g2Uzg0VjA4c080RnBpMXdCMWJqYkZqb1M1ODRVRWxP?= =?utf-8?B?UVF0YUtlVStHOTVPZHBINGVNVldjTnpEdTdRYXJhM0xqNll2UE9zMnJwYmZI?= =?utf-8?B?TnAzS0FEZ3VCL1pJc2s4dk9LZjlJNUFBZHVtNjhMVFBYZU15UmNkRnZjWmFn?= =?utf-8?B?blpKaUp2eVl2akt0OUlDczFQOWNibTFTZ3YybFlYclBIZTJRK3pNckRkeG1t?= =?utf-8?B?N3FzUm5YZjZLVlZzeFJNVEdYQitWTGhmQnN1bnhGbzQxbU1kQVFPOWd2U2hw?= =?utf-8?B?QUxmVVNPamFsSThIWkVDQzVVNThXUExaMFQ5dGJSYVV0TEQ0R1NwWHRlTjlD?= =?utf-8?B?VnB1bXB0UEVibmpmYXZ4TWhOdWkvMURMc0ltTmFrQ0MwVWlhcU0wTTJNajVm?= =?utf-8?B?RUM3TGk3R0pKVld2a1E2cTRkcmhNaTV2TExLZWdVbm4vS25Rbkh5a1NsdVpU?= =?utf-8?B?bU9hMWw1RFd1SHBjUlU1MXdNdEM5RGp2UlBNZm1KYWtzZms2dGFDazBrcGVY?= =?utf-8?Q?xAkddK2cf6IM0?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7b4756d3-d133-4af7-291d-08d98e69d671
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2021 16:52:27.1619 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: xgwlEECLx2OqBsH7hAtPNAqFfFj2Vj5yIDRdihshzgc083mbtFV8QqH23yLgwUGtqjwZ+gMLr7uDX7NEG3ZXJQ==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYAPR01MB3805
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:52:39 -0000

Well said, I agree.   Regards,   Martin.

On 2021-10-13 05:25, Michael StJohns wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this argument. I 
> anticipate that there will be very few documents passed through this 
> process - maybe one or two per year if that.   The voting schedule (and 
> for that matter the actual votes) for such documents will be known weeks 
> if not months in advance, if for no other reason than a stream 
> representative might want to take the temperature of its respective room 
> prior to casting their vote.   Taking such temperature does not require 
> 6 months.  For that matter it does not require 3 months.   If there's a 
> vacancy, then the RSAB asks the chair of the sending organization to 
> provide a vote to be cast.  That chair can either cast it solo, or go 
> and poll the organization - but that part of the process is not an RFCED 
> issue, but an issue for the individual organization to decide.
> 
> There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the behalf 
> of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utterly ignore the 
> process would have already been going on for at least 6 months and 
> probably for a year or two.
> 
> So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.
> 
> Later, Mike
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear >>>> > wrote:
>>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>> I’d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons such 
>>>>>>>> as this. There’s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting 
>>>>>> where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an 
>>>>>> exceptional
>>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, would 
>>> cause /any/ problems?
>>>>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group – ANY volunteer group 
>>>>> – has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated with one 
>>>>> another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
>>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits 
>>> of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we 
>>> shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community 
>>> like that.
>>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
>>>>
>>>> It’s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that publish 
>>>> in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the 
>>>> appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find a 
>>>> qualified replacement.
>>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is 
>>> not at
>>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly specialised 
>>> knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly not part of 
>>> this discussion).
>>>
>>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very 
>>> generous amount of time.
>>>
>>>    Brian
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> 
> 

-- 
Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst
Department of Intelligent Information Technology
College of Science and Engineering
Aoyama Gakuin University
Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara
252-5258 Japan


From nobody Thu Oct 14 08:38:35 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791E23A0AB9 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=fKwi9GH6; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=kSJf1BZD
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vc5y9iR2BjGi for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E3D33A0A9D for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:38:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98053201C60; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:38:26 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=G KsZED4GtGXVZYKGlbNxl6ySE3uWzXBnV8WyX/r99a8=; b=fKwi9GH6xa7YfBIvP Jl4n9dkQFY6q7bPBiOIih1EAuGiTKtT17ytJmIiQVJPEPI3wIL8ZuxqgJWveMRuZ zF5cj5ds+bSSO38k1RR0Jp5H/N6exyk3WLSh9nhjneC6BwHbipZqL8VOy9mK3fol hCgbRkIyvFA4f1P0DZWJv68cfnmK1u+T4XCKPGWHWSJv9DRHiv20U4yPxZZz4OwM WXCuH+/8vcllZS4vFmyVKy7Mu4MHDSiNJ4C9K35mqakBg+4snakPt6dNh5pkC820 1plHRfn9x/4QT7+4NXhNf343nH2gMPcvTVQ8jVWLVGLmgMgjWMqhWFrf31pMBDc+ psqAg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=GKsZED4GtGXVZYKGlbNxl6ySE3uWzXBnV8WyX/r99 a8=; b=kSJf1BZDjs/n8DH24mP7kpjogEwOM0J6urx0cx/bo6c5JRB0Ge9AqcYTo vausSFSmykhYlWzNYlaJyE+tPeYb57t/zXTuiXp0B97Ra/mvzrqvFVxCrYs9rgp0 szAIAL8QzGeK3D1AdK9HvgfT/ZUbO7fykiJe5jauqr/gHkvs03GNz9pndNoPWzK4 mTHtU+6zrVgytldOZZBXbQdaWxeJiu5F0zZ4fbhoCuv7Su/Na1ScsHr4wKyt5pVG UMYH5qtKevBoVVTfMNkyefDKrVkd2fEo5hDzmj4OpcPDSh6wlQZjr5lRe3/l8VJ5 rD6y6qPz5goYXgcRemsPmZbzRX9Zw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddgkeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfevvdetudeuff egieehgffhtdefleeigeekveeggeeuheejtdfguedvveejudenucffohhmrghinhepihgr sgdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhroh hmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:38:25 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:38:22 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:38:34 -0000

Here is my latest proposed text to address Issue 82 (this includes some 
clarifications regarding "delegate" vs. "member" etc.)...

###

The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:

* As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IESG
* As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IAB
* As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
* As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
   Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
   delegate appointed by the ISE
* The RFC Series Consulting Editor

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing RSAB members, such as provision for an open nominations
period (note that appointment of the RSCE is described below). If
it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason, then
for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint a new
member to complete the former member's term. Appointing bodies should
ensure that voting members are seated at all times and should fill
any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary on a temporary basis.
In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise
unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as the appointing body for
the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall appoint a temporary member
until the IRTF chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB.

In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate
as follows:

* Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
   shall continue as normal.
* Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
   be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
   maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the
   RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

###

On 10/12/21 2:37 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
> Sorry - for clarity, I mean 3 months from the time the document is 
> placed for a vote, not from the time a vacancy occurs.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> On 10/12/2021 4:25 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
>> Hi -
>>
>> This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this 
>> argument.    I anticipate that there will be very few documents passed 
>> through this process - maybe one or two per year if that. The voting 
>> schedule (and for that matter the actual votes) for such documents 
>> will be known weeks if not months in advance, if for no other reason 
>> than a stream representative might want to take the temperature of its 
>> respective room prior to casting their vote.   Taking such temperature 
>> does not require 6 months.  For that matter it does not require 3 
>> months.   If there's a vacancy, then the RSAB asks the chair of the 
>> sending organization to provide a vote to be cast.  That chair can 
>> either cast it solo, or go and poll the organization - but that part 
>> of the process is not an RFCED issue, but an issue for the individual 
>> organization to decide.
>>
>> There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the 
>> behalf of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utterly 
>> ignore the process would have already been going on for at least 6 
>> months and probably for a year or two.
>>
>> So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.
>>
>> Later, Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear >>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I’d be much more comfortable with six months, for reasons such 
>>>>>>>>> as this. There’s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting 
>>>>>>> where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an 
>>>>>>> exceptional
>>>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process, 
>>>> would cause /any/ problems?
>>>>>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group – ANY volunteer group 
>>>>>> – has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated with one 
>>>>>> another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
>>>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits 
>>>> of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we 
>>>> shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community 
>>>> like that.
>>>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that publish 
>>>>> in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the 
>>>>> appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find 
>>>>> a qualified replacement.
>>>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is 
>>>> not at
>>>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly 
>>>> specialised knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly 
>>>> not part of this discussion).
>>>>
>>>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very 
>>>> generous amount of time.
>>>>
>>>>    Brian
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>
>>
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 14 10:00:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443593A0BFA for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=Oq716fEM; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=S3oVpU/w
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltDedYxTTJxW for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:00:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DA7C3A0BFE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:00:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A7C3201D32; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:00:48 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:00:48 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:from:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=bHLSl7bHHrH7PNWv0BivZkALH4 ON1hnvk8L1YAmOsx4=; b=Oq716fEMecin+vWJ9iOmsi5lge+Jn6N5CC08Z6Tr+/ fDo5nqAOoLZDiOpE68HGoWoyF/HDYDYxLVUM43DWRlsc/4jU4r/ltYCsOn+8Hc7h ljd3FkhwrDjbfV+QS4EKYJCSNhOCt9UqIa03bg3WMLXqYeBJnRwqV1taK9MTBwGT P0famy/6QAAuOGpG66OlPUkO+kBZzwy1Fz6Udg/X4+MCVBcUt0+DVp1VMRikl7m5 s8zBtSuyLL8b3/v4njA1PbTp3urri5WCbemod9G9mTfo7mREBBAEeJEZjyATe3lM ak/I7dQjycKdWcf5MctUj4xP9stYrCBrff5i9mggn7oA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=bHLSl7 bHHrH7PNWv0BivZkALH4ON1hnvk8L1YAmOsx4=; b=S3oVpU/woCJhuGYS6VLjIt f5uzm9mnB8CRhE8K7iDhQVmKwaZcNiKqf9Hy2qRWdfz+8zdlpWwmJU2EfVpFIB9p tPELAifqG9VBKOek41lDnqoMQ4ofA3SabpFHuNcV9qzNoFFH1kyDBtqGhdOD0+Ig w86qzOHGe4+rGBoa3bN/LoN7gO7yzCtr/lPOKMuvOlEsnUr4n7Q6YTP9QIGrAxP0 y88XFaouupVddryDqFWgO/Y7mZKZoLUAevn0D3RMRMMDwqdVeZ7rDSwHUGzs9wBg yoY7tPie14yWwSVRlqGBDzBYJtlUah2XWXNF+cxo1OGRQwnaoygca72Bg7Vb7MCw ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddguddtiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvffhufgtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvght vghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffduudeggffhfeegge evfeeileduffetleekiefgjeetveffvefhhfehtefhgfelnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrh drihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:00:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:00:42 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:00:55 -0000

Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies, 
I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).

First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced by 
the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system not 
much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be 
communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG. 
It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a 
real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only 
afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.

I say this because our current text in §3.2.2 reads:

###

[...]

9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit 
the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its 
members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:

* "YES": the proposal should be approved

* "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be addressed

* "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest

Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concern 
to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be 
actionable.

A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:

* The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group that 
a particular member represents.

* The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to 
the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viability 
of the Series.

Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions 
within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise 
to the RSWG.

* If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. 
Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

* A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial 
changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an 
additional call for community input might be needed.

* If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a 
vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the 
proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.

When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community, 
and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the 
Editorial Stream.

###

It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or 
"suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I 
think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text 
about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries about 
snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.

Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with 
respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all 
current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)

(Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., §4.4) seems less 
important to specify in this document.)

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct 14 10:47:10 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838773A1766 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Coroe-jTqOCc for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BC7B3A088A for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id h196so4778189iof.2 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4eUC1Px+zYYpkTl9RILmuktbJUH6BwNF+l49s2QhEK4=; b=bxqhsFHEEVx3ZTLXRhOYwrqNu9Sqgew0uo8gct5zxeQ1/BiN5YMFoy8uUlgVv9bum3 epx4CVfr1hufrLYJNmAbcjalVawHWAJ23QWoc5sQktSiS8/Wu1rYlan0T55PgbmWhxzI 6vBLtcq32Ggy/38fHu0pM3fUNP8mVpZ2eVWadKx+yKqLEbfKVylbagfCGAT1a+2N88/S t6wxxJty8Po8j47f0IpV7aS485DosX13xLkpUMWQ7hNE7LW62F0NvBXxOxsq54c2kOqp u5wyJTTUL5yio1Gr8Bi1OkkK6A2pLhpevekghdTosjHTuKBoQDDik6ktE2HHjIFFk+BN BaOA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4eUC1Px+zYYpkTl9RILmuktbJUH6BwNF+l49s2QhEK4=; b=0K/nHp7RPdTHWtUbqsPG7STeXlO6U2aq+9UIjb5aoTUTQipBbFtdyVZKrbPvm0EQDu +QbaI5dc36x2Ukqa/sdmRFSpd8sv00nraXLGbhWkBbZLz1ZpLv+Y4j0RX45bKLrydCrx uzdwcbTwqZy2leNPhySms8oBuda+jN/am5Prrpqv384lOLW8hTOIJ+kHtGi5+1ywBSDh GVqxUkXMPjSmVDG3VSaQHKfonTOR9ClFaEDMKSSZqhqPbXLXkSfA9W8trzdD9nA9ZlkN 0mmBRRMZH4MA8F7djfpottayRflFayLfCpHHI79c7r8MTuCnzumCpvfbnFHcWy5fU5qd MSxA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TalzCfpJ7fhJtZcDL87A6kg8GgO5DPAJfthQuGZMf4Mg2ebNd C9H/DadmqsS6A6noKP3d3EyY+0Q14p+qubTLIvQ7ZQD0fwU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx++cRzyak8VotwMY/+N7Q3Snf/yZr39HxjQHi8GdzbupFoZMFG6YV2yRrVrh5QWKFf+LwpqKgXecqnWzMBS0s=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c309:: with SMTP id t9mr303274iof.50.1634233618459; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:46:22 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f2af005ce53aa07"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:47:08 -0000

--0000000000004f2af005ce53aa07
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Peter,

Just so we're all on the same page, supposing that the IRTF Chair ISE and
RSCE all resigned, after three months the IETF Chair and IAB chair could
approve documents?

I think that's enough of an edge case that I'm not worried about it and I
think our other mechanisms are strong enough to address it, but I just
wanted to make sure we agree on what it says.

-Ekr



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 8:38 AM Peter Saint-Andre 
wrote:

> Here is my latest proposed text to address Issue 82 (this includes some
> clarifications regarding "delegate" vs. "member" etc.)...
>
> ###
>
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>
> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>    Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing RSAB members, such as provision for an open nominations
> period (note that appointment of the RSCE is described below). If
> it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason, then
> for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint a new
> member to complete the former member's term. Appointing bodies should
> ensure that voting members are seated at all times and should fill
> any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary on a temporary basis.
> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise
> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as the appointing body for
> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall appoint a temporary member
> until the IRTF chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB.
>
> In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate
> as follows:
>
> * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>    shall continue as normal.
> * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>    be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>    maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the
>    RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.
>
> ###
>
> On 10/12/21 2:37 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
> > Sorry - for clarity, I mean 3 months from the time the document is
> > placed for a vote, not from the time a vacancy occurs.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/2021 4:25 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
> >> Hi -
> >>
> >> This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this
> >> argument.    I anticipate that there will be very few documents passed
> >> through this process - maybe one or two per year if that. The voting
> >> schedule (and for that matter the actual votes) for such documents
> >> will be known weeks if not months in advance, if for no other reason
> >> than a stream representative might want to take the temperature of its
> >> respective room prior to casting their vote.   Taking such temperature
> >> does not require 6 months.  For that matter it does not require 3
> >> months.   If there's a vacancy, then the RSAB asks the chair of the
> >> sending organization to provide a vote to be cast.  That chair can
> >> either cast it solo, or go and poll the organization - but that part
> >> of the process is not an RFCED issue, but an issue for the individual
> >> organization to decide.
> >>
> >> There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the
> >> behalf of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utterly
> >> ignore the process would have already been going on for at least 6
> >> months and probably for a year or two.
> >>
> >> So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.
> >>
> >> Later, Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> >>> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
> >>>
> >>> Brian
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter
> >>>>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
> >>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear  >>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reaso=
ns such
> >>>>>>>>> as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
> >>>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
> >>>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting
> >>>>>>> where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in an
> >>>>>>> exceptional
> >>>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process,
> >>>> would cause /any/ problems?
> >>>>>> Sorry- wrong question.  If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY volunte=
er group
> >>>>>> =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated wit=
h one
> >>>>>> another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
> >>>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits
> >>>> of their labors.  No business would tolerate such a delay, and we
> >>>> shouldn't either.  You simply cannot delay the will of the community
> >>>> like that.
> >>>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities that=
 publish
> >>>>> in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the
> >>>>> appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find
> >>>>> a qualified replacement.
> >>>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is
> >>>> not at
> >>>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly
> >>>> specialised knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitly
> >>>> not part of this discussion).
> >>>>
> >>>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very
> >>>> generous amount of time.
> >>>>
> >>>>    Brian
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Rfced-future mailing list
> >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
> >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--0000000000004f2af005ce53aa07
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Peter,

Just so we're =
all on the same page, supposing that the IRTF Chair ISE and RSCE all resign=
ed, after three months the IETF Chair and IAB chair could approve documents=
?

I think that's enough of an edge case that I=
'm not worried about it and I think our other mechanisms are strong eno=
ugh to address it, but I just wanted to make sure we agree on what it says.=


-Ekr



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021=
 at 8:38 AM Peter Saint-Andre <stp=
eter@stpeter.im> wrote:
Here is my latest proposed text to address Issue 82 (this in=
cludes some 

clarifications regarding "delegate" vs. "member" etc.).=
..



###



The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:



* As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF chair

=C2=A0 =C2=A0or their delegate appointed by the IESG

* As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB chair

=C2=A0 =C2=A0or their delegate appointed by the IAB

* As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair

=C2=A0 =C2=A0or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair

* As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their

=C2=A0 =C2=A0delegate appointed by the ISE

* The RFC Series Consulting Editor



The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for

appointing RSAB members, such as provision for an open nominations

period (note that appointment of the RSCE is described below). If

it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason, then

for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint a new

member to complete the former member's term. Appointing bodies should
ensure that voting members are seated at all times and should fill

any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary on a temporary basis.

In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise

unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as the appointing body for

the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall appoint a temporary member

until the IRTF chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB.



In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate

as follows:



* Activities related to implementation of policies already in force

=C2=A0 =C2=A0shall continue as normal.

* Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall

=C2=A0 =C2=A0be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up=
 to a

=C2=A0 =C2=A0maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy o=
f the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above=
.



###



On 10/12/21 2:37 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:

> Sorry - for clarity, I mean 3 months from the time the document is 
> placed for a vote, not from the time a vacancy occurs.

> 

> Mike

> 

> 

> On 10/12/2021 4:25 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:

>> Hi -

>>

>> This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this 
>> argument.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I anticipate that there will be very f=
ew documents passed 

>> through this process - maybe one or two per year if that. The voti=
ng 

>> schedule (and for that matter the actual votes) for such documents=
 

>> will be known weeks if not months in advance, if for no other reas=
on 

>> than a stream representative might want to take the temperature of=
 its 

>> respective room prior to casting their vote.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Taking su=
ch temperature 

>> does not require 6 months.=C2=A0 For that matter it does not requi=
re 3 

>> months.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If there's a vacancy, then the RSAB asks t=
he chair of the 

>> sending organization to provide a vote to be cast.=C2=A0 That chai=
r can 

>> either cast it solo, or go and poll the organization - but that pa=
rt 

>> of the process is not an RFCED issue, but an issue for the individ=
ual 

>> organization to decide.

>>

>> There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the <=
br>
>> behalf of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utter=
ly 

>> ignore the process would have already been going on for at least 6=
 

>> months and probably for a year or two.

>>

>> So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.
>>

>> Later, Mike

>>

>>

>>

>> On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:

>>> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequa=
te?

>>>

>>> Brian

>>>

>>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter 

>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:

>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch 

>>>>>> <mailto:lear@lear.ch>> wrote:

>>>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:

>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear <<=
a href=3D"mailto:lear@lear.ch" target=3D"_blank">lear@lear.ch> wrote=
:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> <no hats>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable w=
ith six months, for reasons such 

>>>>>>>>> as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time =
sensitive here.

>>>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outr=
ageous to stop work.

>>>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series=
 are you expecting 

>>>>>>> where a worst case delay of six months, that c=
an only occur in an 

>>>>>>> exceptional

>>>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the pro=
cess, 

>>>> would cause /any/ problems?

>>>>>> Sorry- wrong question.=C2=A0 If a volunteer group =
=E2=80=93 ANY volunteer group 

>>>>>> =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort=
, negotiated with one 

>>>>>> another, to evolve the series and its policies, it=
 is simply the

>>>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see t=
he fruits 

>>>> of their labors.=C2=A0 No business would tolerate such a d=
elay, and we 

>>>> shouldn't either.=C2=A0 You simply cannot delay the wi=
ll of the community 

>>>> like that.

>>>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.

>>>>>

>>>>> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the com=
munities that publish 

>>>>> in the RFC series if their representative is incapacit=
ated and the 

>>>>> appointing body, despite their best efforts, is strugg=
ling to find 

>>>>> a qualified replacement.

>>>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a=
 job that is 

>>>> not at

>>>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any hig=
hly 

>>>> specialised knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is =
explicitly 

>>>> not part of this discussion).

>>>>

>>>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three mont=
hs is a very 

>>>> generous amount of time.

>>>>

>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian

>>>>

>>>> -- 

>>>> Rfced-future mailing list

>>>> =
Rfced-future@iab.org

>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listin=
fo/rfced-future

>>

>>

> 



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--0000000000004f2af005ce53aa07--


From nobody Thu Oct 14 10:54:40 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA983A179E for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=hiW2Z/5k; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ZNqdWPku
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oR0c2Hc-oppd for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 216813A1795 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B253201D43; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:54:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:54:30 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:cc:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=o uOBbCPfwclZqZbJR4QC1d/WnE67Sxa2BmS60r7Ly4c=; b=hiW2Z/5kQcjfW8pb4 oW/DruCCpnzrw99KE+LV+14dc4myAjq/HEgELMyTFNqy1kLrv9TOZmos/pPaCG0t iNRUb2nl/TEuTAq3TnSu0ydETwTT6QsdtbrE4ef+SNGWTFxp8wEuHW+n4nFh6vj9 fTgjvpJqRPMfCwEkQQObHM/AvdklPDl2qLWmgwfic/k1db5pMe26m2NeLbfv/4R2 Ov/DdKSjM95eYUGpU0+2nWMwl8nHIITXguxWDoVrYHgZVP75/TXoeAAs0y0sUwqv JFnr9xf6zSkP5tM/s4IZqSwTlZOXBg5DDMdW7Y792Ud4LuXxT1frmV28yLyBOosK 8nZGg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ouOBbCPfwclZqZbJR4QC1d/WnE67Sxa2BmS60r7Ly 4c=; b=ZNqdWPkuwEJlxDMy6PrL8JrNuOuy9Lj0lqxFOx3I3oHkhMuy0nSpDmKyI OmienNTPFeV4vkgdDfLPvSWvFcVVeGP4UkSQ8+CqsIdHdNnks3/fDtEjaw3CZrJ9 g9Qmwwm4RsowdL4xEfa7CL4pVn5HnbpeZB44iUsM6AyZv0cdG1NU0iKKD+v5Cpkq Xhhfh/AwR7IiyRtPryKJUuf5WNkYPcR5nSh0I/mlMwVsuERF5giMJG51r5VTl3yy B+KJIeRPjEwQQ2dD9fg1zu3wlIxEsAoOi4J7lzMkUnx/NK3As2jiTzfDFwSB3f+B lZhz6nfCz6oSl7irG0ic93sqhW4GQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddgudduiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfelkeevveelgf ehjeeuhfehuefhkeeftdffgfeghfegtedvgeeigfdvkeeltdfgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:54:25 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <2d6ce489-9d51-f397-b7b2-48b98e11c495@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:54:24 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:54:39 -0000

On 10/14/21 11:46 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> Just so we're all on the same page, supposing that the IRTF Chair ISE 
> and RSCE all resigned, after three months the IETF Chair and IAB chair 
> could approve documents?

Yes, if the IAB doesn't name temporary RSAB members to represent the 
IRTF and Independent streams and the IETF LLC doesn't name a temporary 
member to fill the RSCE seat.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct 14 12:39:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9C83A0A3A for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:39:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y1peiTn-zfy8 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B2E53A09E7 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id y10so6486487qkp.9 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NUP4B6QKVwoZg6CIg6a3cJeo07+iuMy8U+gLwl7LHRY=; b=HmE1BGQc9t9/IgTi+8DzscFq/JnkTPFcUkxkm4/O/lFUtnd4Nsrb1ahpciscl5FD2G m42ehX+tIyXqFeTuanwsamXjBjL0/uWwge+3kr/dS2XKS/xXC2V33x/U81Fv4BgScgiO UDkVh8KMIJYFIuzMXUA8Xv48a8tDTtdZT0cwf3b8G828D0GGQZkNdJWkf2G6kVT/QVy5 aeoFqXZdSoirJTOWJExUmemiOBtFfBedTSSg8Uygw5TEWBX61sPT8rFKxUcExDkM0fUJ VtICfPefRlc4Ww780AYp7nyhS9r7ky5/cKJrxr2OFlt8xNz2pdXdgntD3V7qVwqF5+kS VUGg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NUP4B6QKVwoZg6CIg6a3cJeo07+iuMy8U+gLwl7LHRY=; b=xc/O+NnJdjroXvAGdo3j8pmcudZIlqAi/iAUfst3ynp1JeWXk8CHyrSQc/JO95U0H9 dCmIf39VJnolnIIvyz4AZDlRgiJQME8UahVND3XUdoOFxQBiTd47Z4my3dpU3iM+Lit+ Rex75SIqocfWfVCo5F5xC83tTgucTsPLR7qxErmChG6XZOVl0VdkmxLIHfwomXf2rTUl S+L2XwxmnMiCKLCVM3H2+UOUV2LZSq7WMlQJnD9jbE5YngLm64BAZKd/5GqqT6fjjdfA 8lIhnbpaUFqG59NuojukHcJLZFSxw/hJ6tgbpVdkWtKIUMykoUcf27t0seIWQ2GQIwt5 F6iQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5335QW+2MsACfzq/FCCiJIhoHqWNvGhpxkXquVGa+Yzvl+J5a1pV hwxb56Ey2Z2jngviPg+9OaHU7HNiQNBVNgvxZhU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXPYNQes3Ho3xMplxuq/YP3VJU1CLg0ERgahGB3zDz5wSsKM9HD8rjdrkVBWqF0HpRx4tZmg==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:9e43:: with SMTP id h64mr6566627qke.119.1634240342842;  Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g11sm1900980qko.31.2021.10.14.12.39.02 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <88e9eb5f-f118-2d07-12cf-71e57ff1c33d@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:39:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>  <2d6ce489-9d51-f397-b7b2-48b98e11c495@stpeter.im>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <2d6ce489-9d51-f397-b7b2-48b98e11c495@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:39:09 -0000

On 10/14/2021 1:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/14/21 11:46 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Just so we're all on the same page, supposing that the IRTF Chair ISE 
>> and RSCE all resigned, after three months the IETF Chair and IAB 
>> chair could approve documents?
>
> Yes, if the IAB doesn't name temporary RSAB members to represent the 
> IRTF and Independent streams and the IETF LLC doesn't name a temporary 
> member to fill the RSCE seat.
>
> Peter
>
I don't think that's what we've agreed to.    If you follow the above 
reductio ab adsurdum to the point where Lars falls over dead, then the 
IAB chair by themself could approve a document.

I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to approved needs 
to apply regardless of the actual number of active members - and that 
minimum number can't be one, or even two.


Later, Mike


From nobody Thu Oct 14 12:43:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8843A0A3A for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=snv6tbp1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=U8nebHJI
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Omg_qqWeAN6l for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AFC83A0976 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536065C00C8; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:42:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:42:59 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=U unh4JUrReYHpUN1D9nI4nPEnCNGkKymLm5ewVXwLDM=; b=snv6tbp1n/0tEw3pr Km7HpT70ej2llLL31LXYpBtFuY0CxsrAvXYNsMV1BuHDPtoUHREOBkxAxI22pvXw omSpb26IjIi7OpbdijvdNFCwZvk+MtfzNN7Mwm3KHhC2VPTredGyDldUAUKbkPw3 yJ4xn3TQFq0W+6UkMDW9ENRgCaIzlD0Itn/xYpwJKzauMwW/2T0HVgjn19bwWPtG 6wyoMhE4iXy3RA9zsZK6HXcOvpYjmnOXrZ522+On1w9sGRa+ceo1lFVV9ezU6/xm XlNfowmYoejT1CZKcPcrBDeZ4DfRGMI4Yqxy19SpuFzKXv2Bf0JPo4ZwPmIK8hHr ebFbg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Uunh4JUrReYHpUN1D9nI4nPEnCNGkKymLm5ewVXwL DM=; b=U8nebHJIfss2f2vmLGpQk2Ix+vvDWAC+x0L/VXEKMjiaQqzsPHAMIKKnA CyUbXzDyftZxIGeZVQz1v7dezw9Ehx4CCB7ZZTsHVZxJJw7p1iPVOkobdYEPdQMh ZCr6y/GbV5UdXp5erb7BEqroNIQwgE5YZgyirSOHsQ0eRCPxj6BLwvEALorFX75n SyZb14DB1m783sd1Ch6UgyIpVqGsgb0zQaiNglLLcADr2T/AnyIUL1NuwjxyM428 Mmn9/qS+0Gt5IXRHTVVB5bN7oz6yVqarTDC4qlzeFO8X0XjS++pXXlenbJ3g8dtr OFmGiugqynAySoP5rv6kmbEV/SsbA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddgudefjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:42:58 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <0de6a0f2-bb13-fb6b-9c80-ccf6c5f0e5ee@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:42:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>  <2d6ce489-9d51-f397-b7b2-48b98e11c495@stpeter.im> <88e9eb5f-f118-2d07-12cf-71e57ff1c33d@nthpermutation.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <88e9eb5f-f118-2d07-12cf-71e57ff1c33d@nthpermutation.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:43:06 -0000

On 10/14/21 1:39 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
> On 10/14/2021 1:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/14/21 11:46 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>> Hi Peter,
>>>
>>> Just so we're all on the same page, supposing that the IRTF Chair ISE 
>>> and RSCE all resigned, after three months the IETF Chair and IAB 
>>> chair could approve documents?
>>
>> Yes, if the IAB doesn't name temporary RSAB members to represent the 
>> IRTF and Independent streams and the IETF LLC doesn't name a temporary 
>> member to fill the RSCE seat.
>>
>> Peter
>>
> I don't think that's what we've agreed to.    If you follow the above 
> reductio ab adsurdum to the point where Lars falls over dead, then the 
> IAB chair by themself could approve a document.
> 
> I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to approved needs 
> to apply regardless of the actual number of active members - and that 
> minimum number can't be one, or even two.

That's issue 84 (quorum requirements). Let's pursue it in that thread.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct 14 12:50:32 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD353A0D85 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:50:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=N6QYO/Um; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=QkGsTSgQ
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVRh3GPS_KMU for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 239A03A0C64 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806CB5C01B4; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:50:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:50:24 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:from:to:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=O Jwn5sdlO8zJIXjR6APo+Gns+81b4H2fOW6UFwfrM+s=; b=N6QYO/Um+EesgO6mz qLKpC1ITlVUwZQusNneDEXY92CKOGx4kPd4E1fEBx4M55YgrQvynqo242whyScVq VUy5nKC+xYiu0AMA3SnS12cprI/oEbQTet4+kEgGC2vqiE3+Az3aAy8bgCOmXohh 60fqeEYJ2O4X9C7zrOEUTlTT4VOVBL2aoMcw82+E81QPQVeYDvSGji4PYXApDz07 G5MxMZMkgXaB+Ie1q9hADjaKTAhyz6uc5xuYDd0qNMqLBXZYlhoTBVaOcGoRN86y W3gv+RWLDh1Kh69ueiwubcdnylj8mJENmJwFPit8F0TdOpspVdvsATDZiIclkziC 6yOpQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=OJwn5sdlO8zJIXjR6APo+Gns+81b4H2fOW6UFwfrM +s=; b=QkGsTSgQ5Orati1eZO6oO6iWKr7ltxUu89CLS/4toK1/1yD09AZYXINDB RbG0cGU+W/YRGm1L3XzRwHVSiaWUK3qquQa3MSA/zPzLpyJPT3kjn70sJ1xNZ0uT jlW4H8HEK1tNdJ2Wkex5IfHyHlNYu+iV/7rBOA9LC/w8pFwIK+VJ4LjqpB9cUXnO 47Ti5KN0f3yMIkCfkrmILZgEBL69WRa7ZpF+0SyFgsuAFcnMnzSW3RT1LbL+um/G NG4Cuiqc4/m9QZ7F2fnuX1U+eTfh3IaNsiOFEFQTlI2MWsPz9yWqixj6G9yiEFJi tPk1fQzn0AjQmUwtBA+v+4JAvcwbA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddgudeflecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffhvfhfjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfeludeiffduff ehhfeifeefhfdtvedvjeefvdejfffhteefueeifeevgfffgeegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:50:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <965bb3ed-82ba-6d79-22e5-eec8fd506962@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:50:20 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:50:31 -0000

On 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies, 
> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
> 
> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced by 
> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system not 
> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be 
> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG. 
> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a 
> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only 
> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
> 
> I say this because our current text in §3.2.2 reads:
> 
> ###
> 
> [...]
> 
> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit 
> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
> 
> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its 
> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
> 
> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
> 
> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be 
> addressed
> 
> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest
> 
> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concern 
> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be 
> actionable.
> 
> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
> 
> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group that 
> a particular member represents.
> 
> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to 
> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viability 
> of the Series.
> 
> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions 
> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise 
> to the RSWG.
> 
> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. 
> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> 
> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial 
> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an 
> additional call for community input might be needed.
> 
> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a 
> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the 
> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
> 
> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community, 
> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the 
> Editorial Stream.
> 
> ###
> 
> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or 
> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I 
> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text 
> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries about 
> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
> 
> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with 
> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all 
> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)

In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:

 > I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to
 > approved needs to apply regardless of the actual number of
 > active members - and that minimum number can't be one, or
 > even two.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct 14 13:32:00 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D933A0CBD for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ma0px9t-gLFo for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97E753A0CC3 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id x1so5271323iof.7 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oKWUhzg3KonefR1Bcp6EWiiQXjP4tmZjvxjl9tFf9Ao=; b=n46l8yZ8Vhd4UyYTTZauREx1DYVZE18ey8U1OAMQRsKj1Fr68xDzQxK2FfLoH7NX+2 /fOABqtbcHfeP9peV4N4v7pwpcUy4tpNqobIDp4Bd+Tycc6FfTKdge1AfO+rG+mhbfDs N/jwNwoIBXopkjUnf0zgxt6lLwIEj4TdQyGqnaPW7x7kuBhZNqQQ+SyAlThtQA3/+ANz fX2ErnDz29ncg+azu8WERELeqiTiF04f5tF9DfPJTKXimbn9W1J4j5QnLY0c3cR4WWrB +DvW2YlmCvi5m+o+3knBqk8xDxzdXD0h2Bex9+GMjxJ+EslzcXFi04tIBseQFu148m1k UUSg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oKWUhzg3KonefR1Bcp6EWiiQXjP4tmZjvxjl9tFf9Ao=; b=VrjGayv+nXBndGNuoQtpToPtBdoInvuXHrNXEzEkwqTq65+rWex2OExXSIa2xoWq0N t4EAHQWzZQmoxQZNat7KzyOhpb/w4+P42Ai5aUVdVFLrses8SqJ6xVkQZ27m+Yn/c82d yvb9MClbq8TcxTIoYDJwGuhTwWZOwEIEYIZVBhICCt21nMKd34ySZAz4o2/g/DRMnde/ MlvNvGTv0N+hD4GJbs8gFG/K07GxpN094OXOe+CWRnYCQHhdpiYYxJe0yNGTIFHp7J/x 6CEDUYe6XJ/WxJ4Z9HPIfOUiw2GXjXh005ywbuXcrnfiSeraT+jaKJZ0ET6jrS9QqzuQ TGPw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vXQVYzImz/kHeRaXbWjmZ6sQRxjXu013EH5vmCOwMksKfRsJp tywyy6UGl4UsAz5swkeQ27pjN+85+337y3nHYtQMHxn5os4=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy1pdFeV/o9mQ7pMNnGcBsarKv9pWYA+gZWKD9SB+9LXVu52tyqtpiRk1vHSDWgWlOW9ignsaCw/tr0XxC3vH8=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:487:: with SMTP id y7mr908608iov.0.1634243509999;  Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:31:49 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References:  <965bb3ed-82ba-6d79-22e5-eec8fd506962@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <965bb3ed-82ba-6d79-22e5-eec8fd506962@stpeter.im>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:31:14 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3f0fd05ce55f719"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:31:58 -0000

--000000000000e3f0fd05ce55f719
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre 
wrote:

> On 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies,
> > I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
> >
> > First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced b=
y
> > the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system not
> > much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be
> > communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG.
> > It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a
> > real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only
> > afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
> >
> > I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
> >
> > ###
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit
> > the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
> >
> > Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its
> > members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
> >
> > * "YES": the proposal should be approved
> >
> > * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be
> > addressed
> >
> > * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest
> >
> > Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concern
> > to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be
> > actionable.
> >
> > A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
> >
> > * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group tha=
t
> > a particular member represents.
> >
> > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm t=
o
> > the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viabilit=
y
> > of the Series.
> >
> > Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions
> > within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise
> > to the RSWG.
> >
> > * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
> > Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> >
> > * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial
> > changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an
> > additional call for community input might be needed.
> >
> > * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a
> > vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the
> > proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
> >
> > When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community,
> > and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the
> > Editorial Stream.
> >
> > ###
> >
> > It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or
> > "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I
> > think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text
> > about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries abou=
t
> > snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
> >
> > Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with
> > respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all
> > current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>
> In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:
>
>  > I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to
>  > approved needs to apply regardless of the actual number of
>  > active members - and that minimum number can't be one, or
>  > even two.


Hmm... Wasn't the previous consensus that  in the case of ties the document
was approved. When combined with the "RSCE vacancies don't delay stuff"
rule,
then this in fact would allow a document to be approved with two votes.

-Ekr

--000000000000e3f0fd05ce55f719
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM Pete=
r Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im<=
/a>> wrote:
O=
n 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies,=
 

> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).<=
br>
> 

> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced =
by 

> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system no=
t 

> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be=
 

> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG. <=
br>
> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until=
 a 

> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only 
> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.

> 

> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:

> 

> ###

> 

> [...]

> 

> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit =


> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

> 

> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its =


> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:

> 

> * "YES": the proposal should be approved

> 

> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that m=
ust be 

> addressed

> 

> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict o=
f interest

> 

> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain th=
eir concern 

> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be 

> actionable.

> 

> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:

> 

> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group th=
at 

> a particular member represents.

> 

> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm =
to 

> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viabili=
ty 

> of the Series.

> 

> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions 
> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise=
 

> to the RSWG.

> 

> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. 
> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

> 

> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial=
 

> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an 

> additional call for community input might be needed.

> 

> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a=
 

> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the=
 

> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.

> 

> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community, =


> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the=
 

> Editorial Stream.

> 

> ###

> 

> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable&=
quot; or 

> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that=
. But I 

> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text 
> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries=
 about 

> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.

> 

> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with 
> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "=
;all 

> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)



In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:



=C2=A0> I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to

=C2=A0> approved needs to apply regardless of the actual number of

=C2=A0> active members - and that minimum number can't be one, or
=C2=A0> even two.





--000000000000e3f0fd05ce55f719--


From nobody Thu Oct 14 13:48:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411C23A17F4 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=eDZAq2Tr; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=KxY8yQ4A
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aN0rbbxLfZeE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6599A3A17F2 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192D45C0124; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 16:48:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 16:48:34 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=z 04pg//1XMoBQOldtJLUveliW9T7hPeJ+3JM288uSrQ=; b=eDZAq2TrMfd6lF2A8 pyJ0vli5UedDSiJyAltKzfYSqgte3RNiaP+cAPUu7C+QNDOqVOgJewux/+IxW4so efk0kypjcEJNtrH5bhCA/wbhs/87hH5yAdWzrsOBV8xpvw2kAd8ntOtz68gZvBcQ Dtm1QXdc2lOnbrcvLzBKB4LEkde2OJzf+5MLL9jrGORgjW56T3DhkGWu19J0/LLA E7kEQvLy+WNqw0alDFCn9eMuUHi7O+NEi1Ua92/ncomEV20RhBkD7kumrcsBW6Qr u8w39XpQ/DuN7rPd4z0V3++LbV99zjE58gayob4xWUgBAzs22zJHD17bM0nYatfP d9EYg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=z04pg//1XMoBQOldtJLUveliW9T7hPeJ+3JM288uS rQ=; b=KxY8yQ4AJP7Oh9v5Jl8WukF+lYQag/RPPHgXGQ67BZ5PbV4d7a+s7f0Yc mKs4pFbmvJMa3VLBgd19Pg3jvoQSC13yLU2dEq3Q3uE3CdnWrEr7l1dG+96CYq6t 6pQmiVJWtdHVE/h+N7I4WO73LNuZnUHLk08rGqUt8HO0+qY0HxXyD+GJrv1c78hZ GvfkoU5dAAtRyaPucFf130g2SXTsJXUFOEmPdPqvV0KvoxDcSXvgSqo2q12vuKUM v12NzUcRPcB9ysbPKwJHC0vfyFTAyORD2wa43YKUNyULVmgXtzkTenL0fnCP6XSy W2K6DxtchHY52tqxIPvd8e1wEvwkA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddgudehtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 16:48:32 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:48:29 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References:  <965bb3ed-82ba-6d79-22e5-eec8fd506962@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:48:42 -0000

On 10/14/21 2:31 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre  > wrote:
> 
>     On 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>      > Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB
>     vacancies,
>      > I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>      >
>      > First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts
>     produced by
>      > the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting
>     system not
>      > much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions
>     will be
>      > communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG.
>      > It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a
>      > real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only
>      > afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>      >
>      > I say this because our current text in §3.2.2 reads:
>      >
>      > ###
>      >
>      > [...]
>      >
>      > 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will
>     submit
>      > the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>      >
>      > Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among
>     its
>      > members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>      >
>      > * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>      >
>      > * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be
>      > addressed
>      >
>      > * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of
>     interest
>      >
>      > Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their
>     concern
>      > to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be
>      > actionable.
>      >
>      > A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>      >
>      > * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or
>     group that
>      > a particular member represents.
>      >
>      > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious
>     harm to
>      > the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and
>     viability
>      > of the Series.
>      >
>      > Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions
>      > within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a
>     surprise
>      > to the RSWG.
>      >
>      > * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>      > Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>      >
>      > * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>     substantial
>      > changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an
>      > additional call for community input might be needed.
>      >
>      > * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>     remain, a
>      > vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote
>     YES, the
>      > proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>      >
>      > When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the
>     community,
>      > and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC
>     within the
>      > Editorial Stream.
>      >
>      > ###
>      >
>      > It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or
>      > "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I
>      > think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text
>      > about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any
>     worries about
>      > snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>      >
>      > Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with
>      > respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that
>     "all
>      > current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
> 
>     In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:
> 
>       > I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to
>       > approved needs to apply regardless of the actual number of
>       > active members - and that minimum number can't be one, or
>       > even two.
> 
> 
> Hmm... Wasn't the previous consensus that  in the case of ties the document
> was approved. When combined with the "RSCE vacancies don't delay stuff" 
> rule,
> then this in fact would allow a document to be approved with two votes.

My recollection was that we wanted to get rid of approval in the case of 
ties.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct 14 13:58:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5632F3A17B2 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:58:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQyK3iT6_3A9 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 895F13A0D7B for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id x1so4928312ilv.4 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jEdMlpIuZ50bsV57u8Wdm0+1GD3E9hIdlTJcdZzBz+c=; b=wwQDSwQxC6xyzxhxvfNpBf20+000rILZdaB/r2EaiG+Z3Qmnuzaf6qU4sr1VE7v126 IkXU5gveFfT7AL78JPFPCIPXPVOkvP5CxFvDvViIxMIguiZOEr/bPnkpHyHSCkQGKcTT WQUr1FRDhhFNg5BXRVvIQ17bqrwjGGaWuO1yRgbqpBSXJoErHpG+A++KGJ+r9aVVws5w F2an+qNG3kfBwIU6EXo8fqjF31Fw7PKo4LRLYnhLbLT6aORW9E31Is48bUafH729saEq YY4nPoyqB4nbNwSvlA9/NAchLSK2F6raRb7j3FYaRIDGIQOW/6w0ai3vcIuz8RNA+OzY GfMg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jEdMlpIuZ50bsV57u8Wdm0+1GD3E9hIdlTJcdZzBz+c=; b=n0o/OnmEWw0dd0f90Jne4udi2D8ZbkEQ0I8fPRzVikmy9/xgzn6HTZu48yrKshIhBm 5e9SQssJF/ib9MxxpF3Tl2efVIDUmHl0oj5VfbZeIhLk/mdz2Tw5R1Rd5fnF5j8H1TRT 2JxMxwq1ScpLaFfiWfq5QC7AgQ2lxdWztYCNsG/1omMBLNjOSeghpc1GcBklkYtxZ09c 3nqPBSKvVHFsTi8V69bjHlS8Pe4SaAdozYEtgN2q/xvJDqF0rf3TC+agQvtN25H/Zt5X uspH4en54ivXCS451F32h22npSBMJ1WQQ4XzBksNvROg2/Ihe2oHn+dWC2WgT/ZTE6I0 nGpA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532P7XNWkZSw6v2zG++8xXG+bKXTG+ElCR2I5luOpbH+hCKLQVEO EJ/fEWiJj8GT9daxl2uUrYiC6hPM3OOmgIoy385lWDzQzF+KHg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGKpGjPkfCJbaD/QGhOjiwtWfEqBzvQQoW8cMNnvKeWL/r8aHf4jqKO4FjPYNcEZnNrAne2+nXF1MN3JxcvE4=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1a85:: with SMTP id k5mr916212ilv.39.1634245118547;  Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References:  <965bb3ed-82ba-6d79-22e5-eec8fd506962@stpeter.im>  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:58:02 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c46cb505ce565764"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:58:44 -0000

--000000000000c46cb505ce565764
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:48 PM Peter Saint-Andre 
wrote:

> On 10/14/21 2:31 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre  > > wrote:
> >
> >     On 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> >      > Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB
> >     vacancies,
> >      > I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84)=
.
> >      >
> >      > First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts
> >     produced by
> >      > the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting
> >     system not
> >      > much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions
> >     will be
> >      > communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the
> RSWG.
> >      > It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown
> until a
> >      > real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known
> only
> >      > afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
> >      >
> >      > I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
> >      >
> >      > ###
> >      >
> >      > [...]
> >      >
> >      > 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will
> >     submit
> >      > the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
> >      >
> >      > Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll amon=
g
> >     its
> >      > members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
> >      >
> >      > * "YES": the proposal should be approved
> >      >
> >      > * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must =
be
> >      > addressed
> >      >
> >      > * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of
> >     interest
> >      >
> >      > Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their
> >     concern
> >      > to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not b=
e
> >      > actionable.
> >      >
> >      > A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
> >      >
> >      > * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or
> >     group that
> >      > a particular member represents.
> >      >
> >      > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious
> >     harm to
> >      > the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and
> >     viability
> >      > of the Series.
> >      >
> >      > Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussio=
ns
> >      > within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a
> >     surprise
> >      > to the RSWG.
> >      >
> >      > * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSW=
G.
> >      > Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> >      >
> >      > * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
> >     substantial
> >      > changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an
> >      > additional call for community input might be needed.
> >      >
> >      > * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
> >     remain, a
> >      > vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote
> >     YES, the
> >      > proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
> >      >
> >      > When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the
> >     community,
> >      > and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC
> >     within the
> >      > Editorial Stream.
> >      >
> >      > ###
> >      >
> >      > It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or
> >      > "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. Bu=
t
> I
> >      > think this voting process as currently defined (along with the
> text
> >      > about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any
> >     worries about
> >      > snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
> >      >
> >      > Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically
> with
> >      > respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that
> >     "all
> >      > current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
> >
> >     In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:
> >
> >       > I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to
> >       > approved needs to apply regardless of the actual number of
> >       > active members - and that minimum number can't be one, or
> >       > even two.
> >
> >
> > Hmm... Wasn't the previous consensus that  in the case of ties the
> document
> > was approved. When combined with the "RSCE vacancies don't delay stuff"
> > rule,
> > then this in fact would allow a document to be approved with two votes.
>
> My recollection was that we wanted to get rid of approval in the case of
> ties.
>

Looking at the archives, I believe Joel proposed this and Eliot objected:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/U56L5hpW82Y4g_17C1nSEhRM=
qfA/

Was there further progress towards consensus?

-Ekr


> Peter
>

--000000000000c46cb505ce565764
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:48 PM Peter=
 Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
On=
 10/14/21 2:31 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> 

> 

> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im 

> <mailto:stp=
eter@stpeter.im>> wrote:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Now that we seem to be approaching consensus =
regarding RSAB

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vacancies,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I'd like to see if we can do the same for=
 RSAB quorum (Issue 84).

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > First, it seems to me that voting to approve =
Internet-Drafts

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0produced by

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the RSWG will occur by lodging positions thro=
ugh a balloting

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0system not

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > much different from that used by the IESG, an=
d those positions

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will be

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > communicated in such a way that they trigger =
discussion in the RSWG.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It's not as if the positions of RSAB memb=
ers will be unknown until a

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > real-time meeting and a definitive voting res=
ult will be known only

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > afterward, with no opportunity for further di=
scussion.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I say this because our current text in =C2=A7=
3.2.2 reads:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ###

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > [...]

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the=
 RSWG chairs will

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0submit

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the proposal to the RSAB for its consideratio=
n.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB =
will then poll among

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > members regarding the proposal. Positions may=
 be as follows:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * "YES": the proposal should be app=
roved

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * "CONCERN": the proposal raises su=
bstantial concerns that must be

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > addressed

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * "RECUSE": the person holding the =
position has a conflict of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interest

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN"=
 position must explain their

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0concern

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to the community in detail. The explanation m=
ight or might not be

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > actionable.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > A position of CONCERN may be filed for two re=
asons:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * The proposal represents a serious problem f=
or the stream or

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group that

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a particular member represents.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal =
would cause serious

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0harm to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the overall Series, including harm to the lon=
g-term health and

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0viability

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of the Series.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Because RSAB members should have been partici=
pating in discussions

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN shoul=
d ever come as a

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0surprise

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to the RSWG.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take p=
lace within the RSWG.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Again, all RSAB members are expected to parti=
cipate.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is=
 approved. If

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0substantial

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > changes have been made in order to address CO=
NCERN positions, an

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > additional call for community input might be =
needed.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * If, after a suitable period of time, any CO=
NCERN positions

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0remain, a

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of R=
SAB members vote

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0YES, the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is return=
ed to the RSWG.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > When a proposal is approved, a notification i=
s sent to the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and the document enters the queue for publica=
tion as an RFC

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0within the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Editorial Stream.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ###

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It's true that this text does not specify=
 what a "reasonable" or

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "suitable" period of time is, and I=
 suppose we could do that. But I

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > think this voting process as currently define=
d (along with the text

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > about vacancy handling we're working on) =
should weaken any

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worries about

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > snap decisions at a meeting with minimal repr=
esentation.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Do folks have concerns about this voting proc=
ess, specifically with

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > respect to quorum requirements? (For instance=
, we could say that

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"all

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > current RSAB members are required to vote&quo=
t; or whatever.)

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I think a minimum number of yes votes f=
or a document to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> approved needs to apply regardless of t=
he actual number of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> active members - and that minimum numbe=
r can't be one, or

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> even two.

> 

> 

> Hmm... Wasn't the previous consensus that=C2=A0 in the case of tie=
s the document

> was approved. When combined with the "RSCE vacancies don't de=
lay stuff" 

> rule,

> then this in fact would allow a document to be approved with two votes=
.



My recollection was that we wanted to get rid of approval in the case of 
ties.

Looking at the archives, I believ=
e Joel proposed this and Eliot objected:



--000000000000c46cb505ce565764--


From nobody Thu Oct 14 14:35:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6065D3A0CE8 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:35:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.803
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=sc6zb3r4; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=mf7ZvKPE
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aM2V5etAvuac for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 151413A0CA2 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4178F5C0120; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:35:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:35:03 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=J FeXR3HHitmDjL0oVCH6xBW2Z9fTRGa/veKn3fJp7CY=; b=sc6zb3r488bj5jqKg 6ofFiHmOVzfBS0sdTW2IWGIsK4qiB9BI82UKBLHUCjrWGntVJxr1dRnDCLTKlh17 HhT0x8nai8YXCgsnN2/EnL74Qr/Oi63UHK4HMQcia1OMUqWEQ+px9Gy57WJgBpQk G5QC5EEL8Wp0t9Gn/djW9RE0swTtQb9oRJnSXVIeOU2mcoOE+wAfUcGB00d3GYrc o8pbiKT7vbq92DBXRentrD4iUWC2dvk2a90Rqg8hfopjh6HyGfdQKBJqShehqxjo 6Io4z8rZHJ1C31ejfsf6wYMDp7nfqvDRpdtrANkmnhyO+g8LzHbJq5AEd2iMtpYI W6R+A==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=JFeXR3HHitmDjL0oVCH6xBW2Z9fTRGa/veKn3fJp7 CY=; b=mf7ZvKPEfkG2vGCgreZKeJdFbxoPKfgmaWgsU8tmBy43bbLPWu+hdShs5 0ml6qj9Vx7htmA3fs7Dc0eeYWoaLcSv4wbVhlN9mJVUiB8koRJIj7th/17wwLvNQ 5gcVGLIC50ederKFiFJcdedzfLPXe1AHf7jjkieBd0s+witdrLBf+0sIW7QDKLo2 9uGIZDkJkLhvU+VR5goSSzHN2nJ6me7OX2a+epqFinkYS+qbYlUCh/UEH7T+s8Q5 tqc6DEdHUSlS+7swCOJHgnN6fu2uG6uUa5ayXLKlyN3/IOgwLMC6v4748+/SrQ4Q 9weC+K2Gr0C6v90wAituFgdWzzi1w==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdduvddgudeitdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveeufeejudeiie eitdeivdeffeekjeevgfelgefhvddvvdffveegffegtddugeetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:35:01 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <82a0c6df-7548-49f1-7bbb-8acbd32bb2ac@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:35:00 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References:  <965bb3ed-82ba-6d79-22e5-eec8fd506962@stpeter.im>   
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:35:10 -0000

On 10/14/21 2:58 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:48 PM Peter Saint-Andre  > wrote:
> 
>     On 10/14/21 2:31 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre
>     
>      > >> wrote:
>      >
>      >     On 10/14/21 11:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>      >      > Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB
>      >     vacancies,
>      >      > I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum
>     (Issue 84).
>      >      >
>      >      > First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts
>      >     produced by
>      >      > the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting
>      >     system not
>      >      > much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions
>      >     will be
>      >      > communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in
>     the RSWG.
>      >      > It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be
>     unknown until a
>      >      > real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be
>     known only
>      >      > afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>      >      >
>      >      > I say this because our current text in §3.2.2 reads:
>      >      >
>      >      > ###
>      >      >
>      >      > [...]
>      >      >
>      >      > 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will
>      >     submit
>      >      > the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>      >      >
>      >      > Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then
>     poll among
>      >     its
>      >      > members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>      >      >
>      >      > * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>      >      >
>      >      > * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that
>     must be
>      >      > addressed
>      >      >
>      >      > * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of
>      >     interest
>      >      >
>      >      > Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain
>     their
>      >     concern
>      >      > to the community in detail. The explanation might or might
>     not be
>      >      > actionable.
>      >      >
>      >      > A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>      >      >
>      >      > * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or
>      >     group that
>      >      > a particular member represents.
>      >      >
>      >      > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause
>     serious
>      >     harm to
>      >      > the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and
>      >     viability
>      >      > of the Series.
>      >      >
>      >      > Because RSAB members should have been participating in
>     discussions
>      >      > within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a
>      >     surprise
>      >      > to the RSWG.
>      >      >
>      >      > * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within
>     the RSWG.
>      >      > Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>      >      >
>      >      > * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>      >     substantial
>      >      > changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>     positions, an
>      >      > additional call for community input might be needed.
>      >      >
>      >      > * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>      >     remain, a
>      >      > vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote
>      >     YES, the
>      >      > proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>      >      >
>      >      > When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the
>      >     community,
>      >      > and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC
>      >     within the
>      >      > Editorial Stream.
>      >      >
>      >      > ###
>      >      >
>      >      > It's true that this text does not specify what a
>     "reasonable" or
>      >      > "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do
>     that. But I
>      >      > think this voting process as currently defined (along with
>     the text
>      >      > about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any
>      >     worries about
>      >      > snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>      >      >
>      >      > Do folks have concerns about this voting process,
>     specifically with
>      >      > respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could
>     say that
>      >     "all
>      >      > current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>      >
>      >     In the other thread, Mike StJohns said:
>      >
>      >       > I think a minimum number of yes votes for a document to
>      >       > approved needs to apply regardless of the actual number of
>      >       > active members - and that minimum number can't be one, or
>      >       > even two.
>      >
>      >
>      > Hmm... Wasn't the previous consensus that  in the case of ties
>     the document
>      > was approved. When combined with the "RSCE vacancies don't delay
>     stuff"
>      > rule,
>      > then this in fact would allow a document to be approved with two
>     votes.
> 
>     My recollection was that we wanted to get rid of approval in the
>     case of
>     ties.
> 
> 
> Looking at the archives, I believe Joel proposed this and Eliot objected:
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/U56L5hpW82Y4g_17C1nSEhRMqfA/ 
> 

I had missed that message from Eliot.

> Was there further progress towards consensus?

No, that's why we have this thread.

Peter


From nobody Thu Oct 14 18:11:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022FC3A135A for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:11:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wijCqsL3ImLO for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 157E13A0E5C for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id k26so6983088pfi.5 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ofjek4J7uEjVS0rDEC8UZ8V/cXFlvgt13Z18OtXR/Sg=; b=MdIWGq4gKukHBrIJED4hgaOxqqTF7swUnzrqrsjTiyEQPzx137OPjzE0667gbZWLfO eUhXuK5r35Gb5pjpkLux024owTdklP9CwdXCh5QyDYdPigX4uf9+dfDnuOFwnfY1pJI7 sNmZA1CcCkpBL1byb5ZqA95QpQBaM+6IbE+9wjSVmzhWaJPm33O5GpKhVJMFUn/5ktDG yVMqkgcnK13HeR7Nh/p5CLMfa8dZ+/+Wb99KCudi6LwGwI4bbw2bxM76RdZjvO4Z3RTq J84WpZnUHdXzHejuv7S3VEhGB/OYXBYwkhOwXHOkcUyzcoRms+RqsiKn5uAOP9BdSARm PCtQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ofjek4J7uEjVS0rDEC8UZ8V/cXFlvgt13Z18OtXR/Sg=; b=NyDhHTwEFhbHIHUUDKOsDHid7OuFV/HJuNlwO9h+OZ2V1nTjIun1J2uE/BBRZWD3wT ZMkUC27uQbm89O+vDdOH3tUk5GDj00UX1WxEBcjB4mRZZosuRchoxc0Rm8RHA7Gng+W2 08eymXZpNCHAtV/BRc3rzCyLBC27+eLTHH9lEfuCfugEG1NUKBN94cV27fnN06W8/7A0 Di5hYlf1hCdxadtyg107yABmVBswHRLJlvikezs3dGLiVvLyzfduwr2HoGE4cZFQ6IT/ U1zNAbGvi1yVpod1SZpot/j58CZZorG0BymhcDJJqQqEU78Kuk/eSu+zkm9olLOvGysN rdjw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HpFiXIloZYrxZdj4KvyTDuMSLPdFYQh82BCQYCHXLZFOuYSKU i9xzWVnKwc6mzZbf1qQVnaNEUU8IYGc=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJ2uobY7O/3a6khKdIMYApN5PCHNwoDQ0gK3YgFDhY7OKDEjN44fOU9vZ4Q7Ij59grIN1slw==
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:978b:0:b0:44c:abf1:a8b8 with SMTP id o11-20020aa7978b000000b0044cabf1a8b8mr8776342pfp.35.1634260310193;  Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k3sm9959853pjg.43.2021.10.14.18.11.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <3d71b9b4-ae51-c611-d544-31f6d53c3c56@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:11:45 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:11:54 -0000

I'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.

My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or
even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds
the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
has to be used in order to change it?

So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.
But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:

  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a =

    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members vote YES, t=
he=20
    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.

In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the same as
saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.

I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a fine colour
for a bikeshed.

Regards
   Brian C

On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies, =

> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>=20
> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced b=
y=20
> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system not=20

> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be =

> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG.=20
> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a=20
> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only=20
> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>=20
> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
>=20
> ###
>=20
> [...]
>=20
> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit=20
> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>=20
> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its=20
> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>=20
> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>=20
> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be addr=
essed
>=20
> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest
>=20
> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concern=20

> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be=20
> actionable.
>=20
> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>=20
> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group tha=
t=20
> a particular member represents.
>=20
> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm t=
o=20
> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viabilit=
y=20
> of the Series.
>=20
> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions=20
> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise =

> to the RSWG.
>=20
> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.=20
> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>=20
> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial =

> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an=20
> additional call for community input might be needed.
>=20
> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a =

> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the =

> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>=20
> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community,=20
> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the =

> Editorial Stream.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or=20
> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I=20
> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text=20
> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries abou=
t=20
> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>=20
> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with=20
> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all=20
> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>=20
> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4) seem=
s less=20
> important to specify in this document.)
>=20
> Peter
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 14 18:13:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9442F3A1838 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:13:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 64cc-_0sQ1J9 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC6B23A177B for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id y1so5343744plk.10 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rcwtA70mY8PxztouuqzlwTM6PxGCHRgaLIN0rhuickc=; b=iMEdKqPdHwLg13ABGu85VjAHyt2xTdDKKeje519e0/Np2gUwmOjXqagWTuSwPa+u9t BzBhfffXhozlKa01PUFdiQAPCbiF/cls9cHlBkLKEmyr+4pJZIKRoBpxeu1Qut+Ksm58 IQllSnVrrlfUB+uwIIxjh40g1BYAeCgbbGvJExWjAdyFwdpTYT4rdwIwtxWnqfHyL198 R7LJ4TA0rdWgQ1HhNPiOQE/D2GU2lVCztpF1wOwOzi058kvvObfR4z+kuCq67ubiy/89 WWFXaN9Is48vDlNopR+PEqH3sjrK+yAwhPocDMIWnKOwvxUIeJ8UZQEp1nz0HRb/E94X wxjw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rcwtA70mY8PxztouuqzlwTM6PxGCHRgaLIN0rhuickc=; b=hyIjSutJweDPn69m2kCGNQbWRQZf8vvyHDrevWPOFIUOn7GxllbuLrsIkvO6ygTJX8 JyZWlR5ZWzdGYbKQqgtmcdYXHJwpOs4KG8PccJ6TEiD6mq3ISQv/w8rpgr4CL9bS9izZ mq4BL1BhPsBXi64vdDxjzPtwkJxSK4l0LxoXncGt6bswfScKuHzXRysoxG02baJDvqNR wUoEzoB0GJjwxjiWaxhvbWS6cgKuIcMu906HxiMrNLncVlz+M6/0SeWU2Jchu/XQnnBp +TbcCbNJ+C+6Kh0jwSCZfEG92invYP5Y9PizLHbJD7HBKlI/3r9EmHqSOY9I8Eux1d1R FPwQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Xe333d1ykyVRmjrpvhBHH/Vz91AsC7IGZ80rKpHf+7f8YdD4q GP0+OZHBXda6e7OCDCClGmdEKqkbcy8=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVSNv2qyO+sxL3X9HovjV1ETDtTyG1QGyexlGY6ze2JanZyARg6lq++q02MmhzTKzpLQS4nA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1106:: with SMTP id gi6mr24224536pjb.144.1634260380490;  Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:13:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x17sm3462520pfa.209.2021.10.14.18.12.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <34f6b1c2-ce6b-4b53-9a58-f7a772e14557@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:12:54 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:13:15 -0000

wfm

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 15-Oct-21 04:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Here is my latest proposed text to address Issue 82 (this includes some=20

> clarifications regarding "delegate" vs. "member" etc.)...
>=20
> ###
>=20
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>=20
> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>    Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing RSAB members, such as provision for an open nominations
> period (note that appointment of the RSCE is described below). If
> it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason, then
> for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint a new
> member to complete the former member's term. Appointing bodies should
> ensure that voting members are seated at all times and should fill
> any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary on a temporary basis.
> In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise
> unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as the appointing body for
> the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall appoint a temporary member
> until the IRTF chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB.
>=20
> In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate
> as follows:
>=20
> * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>    shall continue as normal.
> * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>    be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>    maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the
>    RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> On 10/12/21 2:37 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
>> Sorry - for clarity, I mean 3 months from the time the document is=20
>> placed for a vote, not from the time a vacancy occurs.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On 10/12/2021 4:25 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
>>> Hi -
>>>
>>> This is the height of ridiculousness that we're having this=20
>>> argument.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I anticipate that there will be very few =
documents passed=20
>>> through this process - maybe one or two per year if that. The voting =

>>> schedule (and for that matter the actual votes) for such documents=20
>>> will be known weeks if not months in advance, if for no other reason =

>>> than a stream representative might want to take the temperature of it=
s=20
>>> respective room prior to casting their vote.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Taking such =
temperature=20
>>> does not require 6 months.=C2=A0 For that matter it does not require =
3=20
>>> months.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If there's a vacancy, then the RSAB asks the chai=
r of the=20
>>> sending organization to provide a vote to be cast.=C2=A0 That chair c=
an=20
>>> either cast it solo, or go and poll the organization - but that part =

>>> of the process is not an RFCED issue, but an issue for the individual=20

>>> organization to decide.
>>>
>>> There will be no disenfranchisement without a lot of work on the=20
>>> behalf of the disenfranchised organization to completely and utterly =

>>> ignore the process would have already been going on for at least 6=20
>>> months and probably for a year or two.
>>>
>>> So, I think 3 months is too long, but can live with it for now.
>>>
>>> Later, Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/12/2021 3:57 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>>> Is there anyone besides Colin who feels 3 months is not adequate?
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter=20
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13-Oct-21 08:23, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 20:12, Eliot Lear >>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2021, at 19:48, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12.10.21 20:38, Colin Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99d be much more comfortable with six months, for reas=
ons such=20
>>>>>>>>>> as this. There=E2=80=99s nothing time sensitive here.
>>>>>>>>> Sorry- six months is nothing short of outrageous to stop work.
>>>>>>>> What sort of policy changes for the RFC series are you expecting=20

>>>>>>>> where a worst case delay of six months, that can only occur in a=
n=20
>>>>>>>> exceptional
>>>>> emergency situation and not in normal operation of the process,=20
>>>>> would cause /any/ problems?
>>>>>>> Sorry- wrong question.=C2=A0 If a volunteer group =E2=80=93 ANY v=
olunteer group=20
>>>>>>> =E2=80=93 has put in months if not years of effort, negotiated wi=
th one=20
>>>>>>> another, to evolve the series and its policies, it is simply the
>>>>> height of disrespect to make them wait six months to see the fruits=20

>>>>> of their labors.=C2=A0 No business would tolerate such a delay, and=20
we=20
>>>>> shouldn't either.=C2=A0 You simply cannot delay the will of the com=
munity=20
>>>>> like that.
>>>>>> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s not okay to disenfranchise one of the communities tha=
t publish=20
>>>>>> in the RFC series if their representative is incapacitated and the=20

>>>>>> appointing body, despite their best efforts, is struggling to find=20

>>>>>> a qualified replacement.
>>>>> We're only talking about an *acting* replacement for a job that is =

>>>>> not at
>>>>> all time consuming and doesn't seem to require any highly=20
>>>>> specialised knowledge (the RSCE is there for that, and is explicitl=
y=20
>>>>> not part of this discussion).
>>>>>
>>>>> So I simply don't buy Colin's argument; three months is a very=20
>>>>> generous amount of time.
>>>>>
>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>
>>>
>>
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 14 22:35:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A74F3A1865 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:35:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3k1P-1iqWdpU for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:35:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 899DF3A124F for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mbFsf-000GEV-V3; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:35:45 -0400
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:35:40 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
In-Reply-To: <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 05:35:56 -0000

--On Thursday, October 14, 2021 09:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
 wrote:

> Here is my latest proposed text to address Issue 82 (this
> includes some clarifications regarding "delegate" vs. "member"
> etc.)...
> 
>### 
> 
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
> 
> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF
> chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IESG
> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB
> chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IAB
> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF
> chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>    Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
> 
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing RSAB members, such as provision for an open
> nominations
> period (note that appointment of the RSCE is described below).
> If
> it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason,
> then
> for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint
> a new
> member to complete the former member's term. Appointing bodies
> should
>...
Peter,

I am a little bit confused about two points.

(1) Why should this group try to dictate who fills the RSAB seat
for a particular stream by default?  Using the IETF stream as an
example, why not just say:
 
 * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
	IESG member selected by the IESG.
	
If the IESG then wants to make a policy and statement that the
stream representative is the Chair unless they decide otherwise,
that is within their authority and discretion, not that of this
process.  Similar arguments apply to to the other streams.

(2) It strikes me that having a stream representative who is not
a sitting member of the body making decisions about what is
published in that stream is looking for trouble.   If one
believes that, I see no rationale for an open nomination
process.  It is a bit less obvious about the other streams, but
if the IESG and IAB are able to make decisions that affect the
entire Internet, certainly they ought to be able to figure out
which of them members draws this particular duty.  

Unless there is a case for an open nominations process that I'm
not seeing, why not just say:

	"The appointing bodies shall determine their own
	processes for appointing RSAB members (note that
	appointment of the RSCE is described below)."

If my reasoning above is even nearly correct, an open
nominations process is not properly "such as"; it is just
distracting and confusing text.

  best,
    john




From nobody Thu Oct 14 22:42:24 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F3C3A1867 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8PUWK-njB8CH for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:41:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 532DD3A1869 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (cust-west-pareq2-46-193-32-82.wb.wifirst.net [46.193.32.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19F5fg2Y3835178 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:41:43 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634276503; bh=/299MLpZug6Z71xiMWwzbZPLwW3432sfw161wveiDfI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=jhPZMDdxSfd2Np1qctLvg72R0WzVsUvCAW5HjUX0AzR9GbUA4DAQzelISEbyIQFTK N7dDiqmVdVadSsOsxyuSn/To8UKuYCquAHGrkJ+RNIxbqVR6kQ6cebgCwPVud0dhgr 75Dkf4F/3gErLPn6PMASeByRibaKiTDHR7iO4mUM=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:41:41 +0200
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-Id: <504E2E76-4D9E-409A-9F6E-F9D93CEBC922@lear.ch>
References: 
To: Eric Rescorla 
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A404)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 05:42:18 -0000

> 
> Hmm... Wasn't the previous consensus that  in the case of ties the document
> was approved.

Yes.  And that should not be reconsidered. 

Eliot


From nobody Thu Oct 14 22:44:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3B93A1868 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RVc3MgRXycTo for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 247C23A1869 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (cust-west-pareq2-46-193-32-82.wb.wifirst.net [46.193.32.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19F5iOW43836662 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:44:25 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634276665; bh=o07iUdjpc2qEU5su0m9KW6wyWk0f12ICFB0VsTryfx0=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=TPxgZJ39c5IRhZFYUQAdkBcZNxCDiDfULM5+cRS9Ct10q4vt8Wy+0zeCzI0dwIaY6 /Ca8HpFSsoB8IZa32COour9FRBr/uvGEg+FG0WTGFdckvMPSDOLyDt2kZ1d36lydNQ sq0IgbwDfy9u6AgyNllmm9zuNRhwVph66E4H6wjc=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <3d71b9b4-ae51-c611-d544-31f6d53c3c56@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:44:24 +0200
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-Id: <60EDA268-FBD3-4B87-A49B-0CA3DA712C84@lear.ch>
References: <3d71b9b4-ae51-c611-d544-31f6d53c3c56@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A404)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 05:44:42 -0000

This text has been agreed since the Spring. I=E2=80=99d like it not to be re=
opened.=20

Eliot

> On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFI'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.
>=20
> My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
> It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or
> even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds
> the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
> has to be used in order to change it?
>=20
> So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.
> But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:
>=20
>  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a=20=

>    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members vote YES, the=
=20
>    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>=20
> In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the same as
> saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.
>=20
> I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a fine colour
> for a bikeshed.
>=20
> Regards
>   Brian C
>=20
>> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies,=20=

>> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>>=20
>> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced by=20=

>> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system not=20=

>=20
>> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be=20=

>> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG.=20
>> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a=20
>> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only=20
>> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>>=20
>> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
>>=20
>> ###
>>=20
>> [...]
>>=20
>> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit=20
>> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>>=20
>> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its=20
>> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>>=20
>> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>>=20
>> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be addres=
sed
>>=20
>> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest
>>=20
>> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concern=20=

>=20
>> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be=20
>> actionable.
>>=20
>> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>>=20
>> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group that=20=

>> a particular member represents.
>>=20
>> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to=20=

>> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viability=20=

>> of the Series.
>>=20
>> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions=20
>> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise=20=

>> to the RSWG.
>>=20
>> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.=20
>> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>=20
>> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial=20=

>> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an=20
>> additional call for community input might be needed.
>>=20
>> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a=20=

>> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the=20=

>> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>>=20
>> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community,=20
>> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the=20=

>> Editorial Stream.
>>=20
>> ###
>>=20
>> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or=20
>> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I=20
>> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text=20
>> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries about=20=

>> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>>=20
>> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with=20
>> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all=20
>> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>>=20
>> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4) seems l=
ess=20
>> important to specify in this document.)
>>=20
>> Peter
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 14 22:55:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07D63A186E for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:55:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dd0mvI9zMAXf for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 624673A186C for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 22:54:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (cust-west-pareq2-46-193-32-82.wb.wifirst.net [46.193.32.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19F5sjHh3841300 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:54:46 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634277286; bh=kWY0cmmUPZrfPp9Y5Y/7z7PPYpuuB1i3v8tKNjxzhL0=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=bHQjpmaayRqXxvINkP3/MgSQJopfW7QE6Y3ooDsneGz73YRqoZ2z5AaBPTrJDr+YX xEE8QLWJWtlnxg6i/ArOMTQDvT096EG6jdyFQk0zkOJ9+4RFS9lwh9llK4AfDqUl6z ziR6GaZBl7RfmJRMmk4hMdPpGqUdaSRJUeoo+ums=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:54:45 +0200
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-Id: <921F18AA-E3CA-4892-8695-7546CAFCCF03@lear.ch>
References: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A404)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 05:55:02 -0000

Issue 84 is as follows: how many members of the RSAB need to be =E2=80=9Cpre=
sent=E2=80=9D in order to process a document?

Previously we had discussed 4/5, but got stuck wordsmithing around what =E2=80=
=9Cpresent=E2=80=9D means in a world of virtual meetings and email votes.=20=


Eliot

> On Oct 14, 2021, at 19:01, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFNow that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacan=
cies, I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>=20
> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced by t=
he RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system not much d=
ifferent from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be communicate=
d in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG. It's not as if the=
 positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a real-time meeting and a d=
efinitive voting result will be known only afterward, with no opportunity fo=
r further discussion.
>=20
> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
>=20
> ###
>=20
> [...]
>=20
> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit the p=
roposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>=20
> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its memb=
ers regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>=20
> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>=20
> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be address=
ed
>=20
> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest
>=20
> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concern to=
 the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be actionable.
>=20
> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>=20
> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group that a=
 particular member represents.
>=20
> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to t=
he overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viability of t=
he Series.
>=20
> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions within t=
he RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise to the RSWG.
>=20
> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. Again, a=
ll RSAB members are expected to participate.
>=20
> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial cha=
nges have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an additional cal=
l for community input might be needed.
>=20
> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a vot=
e of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the proposal=
 is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>=20
> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community, and t=
he document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the Editorial S=
tream.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or "suitable=
" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I think this voting=
 process as currently defined (along with the text about vacancy handling we=
're working on) should weaken any worries about snap decisions at a meeting w=
ith minimal representation.
>=20
> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with respec=
t to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all current RSAB=
 members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>=20
> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4) seems l=
ess important to specify in this document.)
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 15 03:00:03 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F393A18C9 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 03:00:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRT4mYATdEf8 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 02:59:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6C643A1139 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 02:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id u21so36209468lff.8 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 02:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XL9k/FtJJqmDCOjfhqNF1ft1PrG0N/Ei4Ol1YVmt6/Q=; b=O55vQwydy4iVkCZ3NardfJrLlQaOLwoODxr7DiImi0N5rQRc4FM6DJY0mV+W+KqTOy vIpUtVrqQwmCxgHPf8PYk3tta8TsU7/G3OJdoTxmsfyePWEnHjDvFDMQqOizx93p7nMa b5YVZShsUrc+EWDzw5ta+EFn57cVsymxSA6itKU72EKm7a7Rdrzdo9aEq6WsWxf+p3NW /tfIG/r+8scbFrvTzHBIIQAeqp+GS6fV+jz/mtrTUcwGUfrVnMyTSRf50vaRkn6X980S gcGgOZqlDyAsIS4a18puwh127rV8rGRQ12jJJuWzyJOD7rZceI3qWGw1xRuInxGIIzGD m8CQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XL9k/FtJJqmDCOjfhqNF1ft1PrG0N/Ei4Ol1YVmt6/Q=; b=4U56sL52ROP6ZZAcR7HbVvy3N6rP6SJOEpXMzZGxvxG6huxBqR7vXHw9qnW7o++fys n4k+XpfpSqV5F17yW29/MIYkUoTyB4kBoIj5ZJfl4B7c/iOCz9g8AI/De0SqfArxbaHb l2JkA0I5s0J8+HS4m1B1RmxajYTQY4380o7SddXcya2udKh4pS5/+ufeU/T0tIqq1zql MQ6QPfkpnH7KTaq23OdXmGBx1wnj+geCTd9YgGaS4zOio2ae4ufT/iBWtt1bqgAfOQcE jVM2moWUufOpCMJvMBmcnTOqKFdJp9dwe9YiO/VMXDxQjxl5j+GdcqdiBKz52Ya+vPPn XLbQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531kUsCOtA1NdTjyOGdV5jDkqQC5+RghXxYVTMwVwjIfll72+wnX RU85K9LK1GAT+sP/tdAXzsZ6Q/EZlhfPiZtgmknvBBKZ
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzC/k3AZ80yU8a4Hpa8eSTicLUnM7Wa0PpnBoJCer7NDba1UDMkLsfUw6nRIYph5gyqCKhhjx4MAkdOcVM4Bys=
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4e0f:: with SMTP id e15mr9737495lfr.632.1634291991952;  Fri, 15 Oct 2021 02:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3d71b9b4-ae51-c611-d544-31f6d53c3c56@gmail.com> <60EDA268-FBD3-4B87-A49B-0CA3DA712C84@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <60EDA268-FBD3-4B87-A49B-0CA3DA712C84@lear.ch>
From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:59:40 +1300
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3c11105ce6141c0"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:00:01 -0000

--000000000000a3c11105ce6141c0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least one
vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one vacancy, which
we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021, 18:44 Eliot Lear,  wrote:

> This text has been agreed since the Spring. I=E2=80=99d like it not to be
> reopened.
>
> Eliot
>
> > On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFI'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.
> >
> > My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
> > It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or
> > even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds
> > the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
> > has to be used in order to change it?
> >
> > So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.
> > But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:
> >
> >  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a
> >    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members vote YES,
> the
> >    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
> >
> > In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the same as
> > saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.
> >
> > I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a fine colou=
r
> > for a bikeshed.
> >
> > Regards
> >   Brian C
> >
> >> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> >> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies,
> >> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
> >>
> >> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced
> by
> >> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system no=
t
> >
> >> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be
> >> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG.
> >> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a
> >> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only
> >> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
> >>
> >> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
> >>
> >> ###
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit
> >> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
> >>
> >> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its
> >> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
> >>
> >> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
> >>
> >> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be
> addressed
> >>
> >> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest
> >>
> >> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concer=
n
> >
> >> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be
> >> actionable.
> >>
> >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
> >>
> >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group
> that
> >> a particular member represents.
> >>
> >> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm
> to
> >> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and
> viability
> >> of the Series.
> >>
> >> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions
> >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise
> >> to the RSWG.
> >>
> >> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
> >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
> >>
> >> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial
> >> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an
> >> additional call for community input might be needed.
> >>
> >> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a
> >> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the
> >> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
> >>
> >> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community,
> >> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the
> >> Editorial Stream.
> >>
> >> ###
> >>
> >> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or
> >> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I
> >> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text
> >> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries
> about
> >> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
> >>
> >> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with
> >> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all
> >> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
> >>
> >> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4) see=
ms
> less
> >> important to specify in this document.)
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Rfced-future mailing list
> > Rfced-future@iab.org
> > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> >
>
>

--000000000000a3c11105ce6141c0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


But isn't "a majority" equal to "three=
" unless there is at least one vacancy? My change only matters when th=
ere is at least one vacancy, which we did not consider earlier. It's re=
sponsive to the quorum issue.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via=
 tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021, 18:44 Eliot Lear, &l=
t;lear@lear.ch> wrote:
This text has been agreed since the Spring. I=E2=
=80=99d like it not to be reopened. 



Eliot



> On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carp=
enter@gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> =EF=BB=BFI'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thr=
ead.

> 

> My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
> It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or

> even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds

> the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
> has to be used in order to change it?

> 

> So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.
> But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:

> 

>=C2=A0 * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions rem=
ain, a 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members=
 vote YES, the 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RS=
WG.

> 

> In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the same as
> saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.

> 

> I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green =
is a fine colour

> for a bikeshed.

> 

> Regards

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian C

> 

>> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacanc=
ies, 

>> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 8=
4).

>> 

>> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produ=
ced by 

>> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting syste=
m not 

> 

>> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions wil=
l be 

>> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSW=
G. 

>> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown u=
ntil a 

>> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known onl=
y 

>> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.

>> 

>> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:

>> 

>> ###

>> 

>> [...]

>> 

>> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will sub=
mit 

>> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

>> 

>> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among =
its 

>> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:

>> 

>> * "YES": the proposal should be approved

>> 

>> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns th=
at must be addressed

>> 

>> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a confli=
ct of interest

>> 

>> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explai=
n their concern 

> 

>> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be =


>> actionable.

>> 

>> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:

>> 

>> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or grou=
p that 

>> a particular member represents.

>> 

>> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious h=
arm to 

>> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and via=
bility 

>> of the Series.

>> 

>> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions=
 

>> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surp=
rise 

>> to the RSWG.

>> 

>> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.=
 

>> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

>> 

>> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substan=
tial 

>> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an <=
br>
>> additional call for community input might be needed.

>> 

>> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remai=
n, a 

>> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES,=
 the 

>> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.

>> 

>> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the communi=
ty, 

>> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within=
 the 

>> Editorial Stream.

>> 

>> ###

>> 

>> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasona=
ble" or 

>> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do =
that. But I 

>> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the tex=
t 

>> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any wor=
ries about 

>> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.

>> 

>> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically wit=
h 

>> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that &=
quot;all 

>> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)

>> 

>> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4)=
 seems less 

>> important to specify in this document.)

>> 

>> Peter

>> 

> 

> -- 

> Rfced-future mailing list

> Rfced-future@iab.org

> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinf=
o/rfced-future

> 






--000000000000a3c11105ce6141c0--


From nobody Fri Oct 15 06:13:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7C83A0743 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 06:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.088
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EURGjnTIPSUz for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 06:13:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01E903A07DA for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 06:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple ([91.197.138.124]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19FDDHPA4054483 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:13:18 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634303599; bh=5k2JXENJHPaogALYtY2uApVol4xETsh7XswOd6SEezg=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=Fhq9dfLXHR1CETUWSb/bM+V3UWVdIqkH7yL4XvOOkXguWu/MEpKQia3qIw+IBFasD eoOYlOeOW0t1r7LmHnwq5rri3OtwXhSuEjI9mk0vuqIBMDJ/LtYeg8uxTCoJzf0YG2 XvBRzfGhGhUzSDnlV49mgjaLCTXsp5NAHmyQ9+yI=
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-75D84BDF-F0CA-41CF-8B9E-7FD62235A4E2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:13:16 +0200
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-Id: <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>
References: 
To: Brian Carpenter 
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A404)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:13:40 -0000

--Apple-Mail-75D84BDF-F0CA-41CF-8B9E-7FD62235A4E2
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Same tiny problem..

=46rom a chair perspective I=E2=80=99m in the group=E2=80=99s hands.  If the=
 group wants to go there ok. But I do believe we did anticipate and discuss t=
ies.  If others would like to reconsider, let=E2=80=99s do so quickly.

In any case we still need the quorum question properly answered.=20

Eliot

> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter  w=
rote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least one vacan=
cy? My change only matters when there is at least one vacancy, which we did n=
ot consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.
>=20
> Regards,
>     Brian Carpenter
>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>=20
>> On Fri, 15 Oct 2021, 18:44 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>> This text has been agreed since the Spring. I=E2=80=99d like it not to be=
 reopened.=20
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>> > On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>> >=20
>> > =EF=BB=BFI'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.
>> >=20
>> > My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
>> > It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or
>> > even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds
>> > the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
>> > has to be used in order to change it?
>> >=20
>> > So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.
>> > But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:
>> >=20
>> >  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a=
=20
>> >    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members vote YES, t=
he=20
>> >    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>> >=20
>> > In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the same as
>> > saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.
>> >=20
>> > I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a fine colou=
r
>> > for a bikeshed.
>> >=20
>> > Regards
>> >   Brian C
>> >=20
>> >> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> >> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacancies,=
=20
>> >> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>> >>=20
>> >> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produced b=
y=20
>> >> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system no=
t=20
>> >=20
>> >> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will be=
=20
>> >> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG.=20=

>> >> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a=20=

>> >> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only=20=

>> >> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>> >>=20
>> >> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
>> >>=20
>> >> ###
>> >>=20
>> >> [...]
>> >>=20
>> >> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit=20=

>> >> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>> >>=20
>> >> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among its=20=

>> >> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>> >>=20
>> >> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>> >>=20
>> >> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be add=
ressed
>> >>=20
>> >> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of interest=

>> >>=20
>> >> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their concer=
n=20
>> >=20
>> >> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be=20
>> >> actionable.
>> >>=20
>> >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>> >>=20
>> >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group th=
at=20
>> >> a particular member represents.
>> >>=20
>> >> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm t=
o=20
>> >> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viabili=
ty=20
>> >> of the Series.
>> >>=20
>> >> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions=20
>> >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise=
=20
>> >> to the RSWG.
>> >>=20
>> >> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.=20
>> >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>> >>=20
>> >> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substantial=
=20
>> >> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an=20
>> >> additional call for community input might be needed.
>> >>=20
>> >> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain, a=
=20
>> >> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, the=
=20
>> >> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>> >>=20
>> >> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the community,=20=

>> >> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within the=
=20
>> >> Editorial Stream.
>> >>=20
>> >> ###
>> >>=20
>> >> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or=20
>> >> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I=20=

>> >> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text=20=

>> >> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries abo=
ut=20
>> >> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>> >>=20
>> >> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with=20=

>> >> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "all=20=

>> >> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>> >>=20
>> >> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4) see=
ms less=20
>> >> important to specify in this document.)
>> >>=20
>> >> Peter
>> >>=20
>> >=20
>> > --=20
>> > Rfced-future mailing list
>> > Rfced-future@iab.org
>> > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>> >=20
>>=20

--Apple-Mail-75D84BDF-F0CA-41CF-8B9E-7FD62235A4E2
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Same tiny problem..

=46rom=
 a chair perspective I=E2=80=99m in the group=E2=80=99s hands.  If the g=
roup wants to go there ok. But I do believe we did anticipate and discuss ti=
es.  If others would like to reconsider, let=E2=80=99s do so quickly.

In any case we still need the quorum question proper=
ly answered. 

Eliot

<=
blockquote type=3D"cite">On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter <bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
But isn't "a majority=
" equal to "three" unless there is at least one vacancy? My change only matt=
ers when there is at least one vacancy, which we did not consider earlier. I=
t's responsive to the quorum issue.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (=
via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021, 18:44 Eliot Lear, &=
lt;lear@lear.ch> wrote:
This text has been agreed since the Spring. I=E2=80=
=99d like it not to be reopened. 



Eliot



> On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> =EF=BB=BFI'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.

> 

> My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
=

> It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or

> even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds

> the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
=

> has to be used in order to change it?

> 

> So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.

> But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:

> 

>  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions rema=
in, a 

>    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members v=
ote YES, the 

>    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSW=
G.

> 

> In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the same as
> saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.

> 

> I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a fine colou=
r

> for a bikeshed.

> 

> Regards

>   Brian C

> 

>> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB vacanci=
es, 

>> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>> 

>> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts produc=
ed by 

>> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting system=
 not 

> 

>> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions will=
 be 

>> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the RSWG=
. 

>> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown until a=
 

>> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known only=
 

>> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.

>> 

>> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:

>> 

>> ###

>> 

>> [...]

>> 

>> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will subm=
it 

>> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

>> 

>> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll among i=
ts 

>> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:

>> 

>> * "YES": the proposal should be approved

>> 

>> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that must be a=
ddressed

>> 

>> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of inter=
est

>> 

>> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain their con=
cern 

> 

>> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be <=
br>
>> actionable.

>> 

>> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:

>> 

>> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group=
 that 

>> a particular member represents.

>> 

>> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious ha=
rm to 

>> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viab=
ility 

>> of the Series.

>> 

>> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions <=
br>
>> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surpr=
ise 

>> to the RSWG.

>> 

>> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. <=
br>
>> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

>> 

>> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If substant=
ial 

>> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an 
>> additional call for community input might be needed.

>> 

>> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain=
, a 

>> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote YES, t=
he 

>> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.

>> 

>> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the communit=
y, 

>> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC within t=
he 

>> Editorial Stream.

>> 

>> ###

>> 

>> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or 
>> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. But I=
 

>> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the text=
 

>> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any worries a=
bout 

>> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.

>> 

>> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically with=
 

>> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say that "a=
ll 

>> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)

>> 

>> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A74.4) s=
eems less 

>> important to specify in this document.)

>> 

>> Peter

>> 

> 

> -- 

> Rfced-future mailing list

> Rfced-future@iab.org

> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/=
rfced-future

> 






=

--Apple-Mail-75D84BDF-F0CA-41CF-8B9E-7FD62235A4E2--


From nobody Fri Oct 15 09:06:57 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792843A0B93 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:06:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=f/V/VV6s; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VcMSiCXI
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTsrnBe9kIhy for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AE943A0AEE for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894755C0070; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:06:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:06:46 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=q pL/k4vbO5NDR4kC4X6jHnZeFg8WOQYx2a2zpPHKxys=; b=f/V/VV6sFMFhRbuS0 DYVPb8j0qfy4lnqqinRbNqEmjsqrhK/I7/iqWS54v4xSmumHTgyEaE3BIyNnufiV RimKuyV8VsPBqatQUjoNM1caO8GMZsswQTSlNxV3FlBfu+8DP/264EPXpnpRRNF1 EPFK4ogkKZByNusvrm1j07Sc2UFj5NpNv1WEIIhzDwZ/V9wwxJqLIgyc1LfAdWqC iezce076VsZMZQqDwt91G2CFnEcsnIFbKbzV7EXurTM3rar6xmVL8n6rmCkEUvEu TIjWGy2sLYaEI9UQWLyZbzZe3zJYoEC8T9uFxFiMEJaaBSWohTNLAxVaXUgudgqB r2Pfg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qpL/k4vbO5NDR4kC4X6jHnZeFg8WOQYx2a2zpPHKx ys=; b=VcMSiCXIFgo3wkMuo/sYnA/RA3Bp0HQGHayN88mDZLhHSxUoQ/jNm7GNY Hc7vPODnuXB6FmukikjnAk10Qy76r9JswoyUTV832OedouxZzF+Y9LtHN2zuiWKo QSCT5Bl3/8sYSs28yosEIzEsv9H4fibagkeNruJbx17ViPkYm2z3KpkLS1wPEl7r jRklUfDm++SBXxdLQiECe1NWlgE/RHPE9HGVDDJaTPcMLcqWlUYvQJFiBbLwFAbL 5hZUFAbrMaxLWLOU/Sx25U05T/IJ/vFkKWD4vH2tA93vRr+4B8kTXlLPRVUU9ABH 7ZUIZVWCih4aT2+ytqJujC+71E2pg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddugedgleeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:06:45 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <7008f4ac-c0e4-0b02-3c62-1aaa110ee2d7@stpeter.im>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:06:41 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <921F18AA-E3CA-4892-8695-7546CAFCCF03@lear.ch>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <921F18AA-E3CA-4892-8695-7546CAFCCF03@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:06:55 -0000

On 10/14/21 11:54 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Issue 84 is as follows: how many members of the RSAB need to be “present” in order to process a document?
> 
> Previously we had discussed 4/5, but got stuck wordsmithing around what “present” means in a world of virtual meetings and email votes.

Perhaps it's good enough to say that at least 4 voting members need to 
vote (within a reasonable amount of time).

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct 15 09:10:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA313A0A1E for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=Uw9/T6TZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=G1SX25sY
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w4tHnV1w3qRP for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A84AE3A114D for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093775C0032; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:09:44 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=q 2hx845uNIRtmnS/lxpf+ullCfXac7PA0pODrsOIpk4=; b=Uw9/T6TZSpadI45/0 L/tVg2OWJ3oHZ17gyAjRAfjliBfVxlAAWyMaI2khDBYpMVqQhGvwZEy6Lz/Q6XVU flzhVqHAuFJycLcdOCwM380CTRlgfON76ptzGbistQYmcx9z91XLnyDpSAyB+YFe +D2jXnTQuQvUiOdKpIbs+2qaonCn81kn0kD5xqIIGPPX9L01gPwlT6aoHyvyeuLf jYRPg5U0HlVlxg8dzpESJfYC9k47cBFgmmJUuOMB9T7kfqWRbLtXPeglCFZDLuRi XCOKdpQ/Aq8PzrimJdIR9mg2U0iiWB7YqePUZH8RsFl9O4pwfmdHt2Yt3EFUL6Cs dPokQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=q2hx845uNIRtmnS/lxpf+ullCfXac7PA0pODrsOIp k4=; b=G1SX25sYttRRn92EIxQzt/sPjTU6WpxQmjeKLAIhSpnSpfU5kPQ5dTPrK zh2fYY4C1tlXSUTRbBYzRuGKFbn+K1eRkWZtx5cALQ7WtpCqyL5O3lzOTgjUwwwP wTph8DZRMdzdo3OVefvg+AShKSykOHTKv8h/5ts6Z1cHTpgKZOeogCEKkXhJ9cwr 8EjxU6UwS6kJj0GQA5Dzr0PnbY7ttDatECi5+fyUYOXtpL4U0TmaHKdUmFD6xAcb WwqeIjpOn+ySHf23y/9i89ChTVG+0s9uM9BUtrFK7oYBHK1ugwXd8ncdHVJdF4EL qGsQ7GK3wU6VM1UoZ70Sgc+uvw4rA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddugedgleeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhge etgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeuheefleekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:09:42 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:10:32 -0000

On 10/14/21 11:35 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
> --On Thursday, October 14, 2021 09:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>  wrote:
> 
>> Here is my latest proposed text to address Issue 82 (this
>> includes some clarifications regarding "delegate" vs. "member"
>> etc.)...
>>
>> ###
>>
>> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>>
>> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, the IETF
>> chair
>>     or their delegate appointed by the IESG
>> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, the IAB
>> chair
>>     or their delegate appointed by the IAB
>> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF
>> chair
>>     or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
>> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>>     Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>>     delegate appointed by the ISE
>> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>>
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing RSAB members, such as provision for an open
>> nominations
>> period (note that appointment of the RSCE is described below).
>> If
>> it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason,
>> then
>> for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint
>> a new
>> member to complete the former member's term. Appointing bodies
>> should
>> ...
> Peter,
> 
> I am a little bit confused about two points.
> 
> (1) Why should this group try to dictate who fills the RSAB seat
> for a particular stream by default?  Using the IETF stream as an
> example, why not just say:
>   
>   * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
> 	IESG member selected by the IESG.
> 	
> If the IESG then wants to make a policy and statement that the
> stream representative is the Chair unless they decide otherwise,
> that is within their authority and discretion, not that of this
> process.  Similar arguments apply to to the other streams.
> 
> (2) It strikes me that having a stream representative who is not
> a sitting member of the body making decisions about what is
> published in that stream is looking for trouble.   If one
> believes that, I see no rationale for an open nomination
> process.  It is a bit less obvious about the other streams, but
> if the IESG and IAB are able to make decisions that affect the
> entire Internet, certainly they ought to be able to figure out
> which of them members draws this particular duty.
> 
> Unless there is a case for an open nominations process that I'm
> not seeing, why not just say:
> 
> 	"The appointing bodies shall determine their own
> 	processes for appointing RSAB members (note that
> 	appointment of the RSCE is described below)."
> 
> If my reasoning above is even nearly correct, an open
> nominations process is not properly "such as"; it is just
> distracting and confusing text.

Agreed.

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct 15 09:12:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61B73A003F for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:12:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b3407DDMAqF9 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:12:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB5253A0029 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id 77so8924093qkh.6 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=2ZLQgJWYpZjlRHNj4V/O4fq6Cm9uWOFasOpuULbzHCg=; b=3iS7A8Cn/xVjuI6KqAoCLwUO8EPA+4PM9FmEH6zXcvzLTBft3k7sb553bumWR7MZjU u44PWJ/wGnPd/aad3u5eJXnEtYKSU1+Y9hb9edTXhuXeFDZo5RaZMGp2cd8Z3KAJGnaP UWKLrjaAmO7pmx2vnHgVQSR0I4kkQhOnTzFFQ8oMBm+UsHpc/aa3Bxkbf5XLrQui38LS qppTSR0p9ZNq8zlvUHbv5XmM+Vk+zPzCgp8ovGEhIvQkcZytONUxEj5bOoLxdSEt8eyj I9gmlW/AQSBfdgSeY72+nATcn693zMXZ+15Yfke0OdbRQfv2G+PHj/vOYMW2/gCXJgB+ jQEw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=2ZLQgJWYpZjlRHNj4V/O4fq6Cm9uWOFasOpuULbzHCg=; b=F6gbNhm/v9sjFY3OcZl6a0bWyBMwc78bfUTRb0Xee5gdn8oWhliuqobDKK6WPq2DRc KZqr0gxD3joDh0SxnwRWH8gKHnaB1MaKEPbFLalqV3kW3cRBcS/6dO6kM0bBaSbJjIqj P9PcNRFJ2hQQhRk6FbrEeQan70QUCIZjJgBQ/IynicGSQIEfY9c5wAlQ7qryTtrMnHKC pgcxzen7yZt94YV7iO2+6d9hlTkeGEGuzlcZzj1tRL6BKZ1zkMGMsSVP8c1n1UgwbGYm 2XSumtxxf3FWfXgpBBLkIC2OeuOy9lZOOXbT9CNIp2Wzmb0HB33Ph1AsQxBUDiFHLqMJ IKGw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Htt9Zgz2HXpQkLn36EjDymk9nM9Ue8NN/x5tdaIuFguyzN9qz 8aQ6HAPdcHuNWfygs3xLsMWVdsz+SzyPpNdWtpc=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyj02QsGUjn2gdfbc9K/5FgvrMuLoZrFtwKeExMAm3tGnp15rRU1rWaJW7GbRX5Amzwa/JhVA==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:b742:: with SMTP id h63mr10525736qkf.204.1634314327564;  Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w7sm3101828qtc.29.2021.10.15.09.12.06 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------TUucRRgADZ0FrPr3lHhRM9m1"
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:12:06 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:12:15 -0000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------TUucRRgADZ0FrPr3lHhRM9m1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/15/2021 9:13 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Same tiny problem..
>
> From a chair perspective I’m in the group’s hands.  If the group wants 
> to go there ok. But I do believe we did anticipate and discuss ties. 
>  If others would like to reconsider, let’s do so quickly.
>
> In any case we still need the quorum question properly answered.
>
> Eliot
>
>> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least one 
>> vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one vacancy, 
>> which we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.

A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.

Re Brian's text below - how about simply:

"A document requires three YES votes for approval."

That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3, and 
doesn't need any weasel wording about vacancies or  recusals.

I might also add:

"Any CONCERN vote, with the consent of the rest of the RSAB members, 
delays the final evaluation of the vote on a document until the concerns 
have been evaluated by the RSWG, any changes necessary have been made 
and the document is returned to the RSAB for reconsideration,  and for 
one additional month thereafter. Any CONCERN vote may be overridden by 
three YES votes."

and

"Votes may be made by the appointing organization's designated delegate 
to the RSAB, or, if the position is vacant,  by the chair of the 
organization, or as directed by an action of the organization.  An 
organization or its chair (under whatever rules they create for 
themselves) while recruiting a replacement delegate, may post a 
"CONCERN" vote to delay final consideration of a document for up to 3 
months from when the document was placed for consideration."

>>
>> Regards,
>>     Brian Carpenter
>>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Oct 2021, 18:44 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>
>>     This text has been agreed since the Spring. I’d like it not to be
>>     reopened.
>>
>>     Eliot
>>
>>     > On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter
>>      wrote:
>>     >
>>     > I'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.
>>     >
>>     > My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specified.
>>     > It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (or
>>     > even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB finds
>>     > the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same system*
>>     > has to be used in order to change it?
>>     >
>>     > So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler.
>>     > But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:
>>     >
>>     >  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>>     remain, a
>>     >    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB members
>>     vote YES, the
>>     >    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>>     >
>>     > In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the
>>     same as
>>     > saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.
>>     >
>>     > I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a
>>     fine colour
>>     > for a bikeshed.
>>     >
>>     > Regards
>>     >   Brian C
>>     >
>>     >> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>     >> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB
>>     vacancies,
>>     >> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 84).
>>     >>
>>     >> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts
>>     produced by
>>     >> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting
>>     system not
>>     >
>>     >> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions
>>     will be
>>     >> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the
>>     RSWG.
>>     >> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown
>>     until a
>>     >> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known
>>     only
>>     >> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>>     >>
>>     >> I say this because our current text in §3.2.2 reads:
>>     >>
>>     >> ###
>>     >>
>>     >> [...]
>>     >>
>>     >> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will
>>     submit
>>     >> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>>     >>
>>     >> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll
>>     among its
>>     >> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>>     >>
>>     >> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>>     >>
>>     >> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that
>>     must be addressed
>>     >>
>>     >> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of
>>     interest
>>     >>
>>     >> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain
>>     their concern
>>     >
>>     >> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not be
>>     >> actionable.
>>     >>
>>     >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>>     >>
>>     >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or
>>     group that
>>     >> a particular member represents.
>>     >>
>>     >> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause
>>     serious harm to
>>     >> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and
>>     viability
>>     >> of the Series.
>>     >>
>>     >> Because RSAB members should have been participating in
>>     discussions
>>     >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a
>>     surprise
>>     >> to the RSWG.
>>     >>
>>     >> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the
>>     RSWG.
>>     >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>     >>
>>     >> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>>     substantial
>>     >> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, an
>>     >> additional call for community input might be needed.
>>     >>
>>     >> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
>>     remain, a
>>     >> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote
>>     YES, the
>>     >> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>>     >>
>>     >> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the
>>     community,
>>     >> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC
>>     within the
>>     >> Editorial Stream.
>>     >>
>>     >> ###
>>     >>
>>     >> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" or
>>     >> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that.
>>     But I
>>     >> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the
>>     text
>>     >> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any
>>     worries about
>>     >> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>>     >>
>>     >> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically
>>     with
>>     >> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say
>>     that "all
>>     >> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>>     >>
>>     >> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., §4.4)
>>     seems less
>>     >> important to specify in this document.)
>>     >>
>>     >> Peter
>>     >>
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Rfced-future mailing list
>>     > Rfced-future@iab.org
>>     > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>     >
>>
>

--------------TUucRRgADZ0FrPr3lHhRM9m1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
On 10/15/2021 9:13 AM, Eliot Lear
      wrote:

    

    

      
      Same tiny problem..
      


      

      
From a chair perspective I’m in the group’s hands.  If the
        group wants to go there ok. But I do believe we did anticipate
        and discuss ties.  If others would like to reconsider, let’s do
        so quickly.

      


      

      
In any case we still need the quorum question properly
        answered. 

        

        
Eliot

        


          
On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian
            Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

            

          

        

        

          

            
But isn't "a majority" equal to "three"
              unless there is at least one vacancy? My change only
              matters when there is at least one vacancy, which we did
              not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.

            

          

        

      

    

    
A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.

    
Re Brian's text below - how about simply:

    
"A document requires three YES votes for approval."

    
That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3,
      and doesn't need any weasel wording about vacancies or  recusals.

    
I might also add:

    
"Any CONCERN vote, with the consent of the rest of the RSAB
      members, delays the final evaluation of the vote on a document
      until the concerns have been evaluated by the RSWG, any changes
      necessary have been made and the document is returned to the RSAB
      for reconsideration,  and for one additional month thereafter. 
      Any CONCERN vote may be overridden by three YES votes."

    
and 

    

    
"Votes may be made by the appointing organization's designated
      delegate to the RSAB, or, if the position is vacant,  by the chair
      of the organization, or as directed by an action of the
      organization.  An organization or its chair (under whatever rules
      they create for themselves) while recruiting a replacement
      delegate, may post a "CONCERN" vote to delay final consideration
      of a document for up to 3 months from when the document was placed
      for consideration."

    

    

      

        

          

            


              
Regards,

                    Brian Carpenter

                    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

            

            

            

              
On Fri, 15 Oct 2021,
                18:44 Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch>
                wrote:

              

              
This
                text has been agreed since the Spring. I’d like it not
                to be reopened. 

                

                Eliot

                

                > On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
                wrote:

                > 

                > I'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the
                thread.

                > 

                > My general reaction is that the whole text below is
                over-specified.

                > It took many years for the IESG to reach its
                current baroque (or

                > even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the
                the RSAB finds

                > the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but
                *the same system*

                > has to be used in order to change it?

                > 

                > So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing
                much simpler.

                > But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:

                > 

                >  * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN
                positions remain, a 

                >    vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three
                RSAB members vote YES, the 

                >    proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned
                to the RSWG.

                > 

                > In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which
                is not the same as

                > saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.

                > 

                > I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark
                green is a fine colour

                > for a bikeshed.

                > 

                > Regards

                >   Brian C

                > 

                >> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

                >> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus
                regarding RSAB vacancies, 

                >> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB
                quorum (Issue 84).

                >> 

                >> First, it seems to me that voting to approve
                Internet-Drafts produced by 

                >> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions
                through a balloting system not 

                > 

                >> much different from that used by the IESG, and
                those positions will be 

                >> communicated in such a way that they trigger
                discussion in the RSWG. 

                >> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members
                will be unknown until a 

                >> real-time meeting and a definitive voting
                result will be known only 

                >> afterward, with no opportunity for further
                discussion.

                >> 

                >> I say this because our current text in §3.2.2
                reads:

                >> 

                >> ###

                >> 

                >> [...]

                >> 

                >> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the
                RSWG chairs will submit 

                >> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

                >> 

                >> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB
                will then poll among its 

                >> members regarding the proposal. Positions may
                be as follows:

                >> 

                >> * "YES": the proposal should be approved

                >> 

                >> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial
                concerns that must be addressed

                >> 

                >> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has
                a conflict of interest

                >> 

                >> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position
                must explain their concern 

                > 

                >> to the community in detail. The explanation
                might or might not be 

                >> actionable.

                >> 

                >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two
                reasons:

                >> 

                >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for
                the stream or group that 

                >> a particular member represents.

                >> 

                >> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal
                would cause serious harm to 

                >> the overall Series, including harm to the
                long-term health and viability 

                >> of the Series.

                >> 

                >> Because RSAB members should have been
                participating in discussions 

                >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should
                ever come as a surprise 

                >> to the RSWG.

                >> 

                >> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take
                place within the RSWG. 

                >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to
                participate.

                >> 

                >> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is
                approved. If substantial 

                >> changes have been made in order to address
                CONCERN positions, an 

                >> additional call for community input might be
                needed.

                >> 

                >> * If, after a suitable period of time, any
                CONCERN positions remain, a 

                >> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of
                RSAB members vote YES, the 

                >> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned
                to the RSWG.

                >> 

                >> When a proposal is approved, a notification is
                sent to the community, 

                >> and the document enters the queue for
                publication as an RFC within the 

                >> Editorial Stream.

                >> 

                >> ###

                >> 

                >> It's true that this text does not specify what
                a "reasonable" or 

                >> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we
                could do that. But I 

                >> think this voting process as currently defined
                (along with the text 

                >> about vacancy handling we're working on) should
                weaken any worries about 

                >> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal
                representation.

                >> 

                >> Do folks have concerns about this voting
                process, specifically with 

                >> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance,
                we could say that "all 

                >> current RSAB members are required to vote" or
                whatever.)

                >> 

                >> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day
                implementation (e.g., §4.4) seems less 

                >> important to specify in this document.)

                >> 

                >> Peter

                >> 

                > 

                > -- 

                > Rfced-future mailing list

                > Rfced-future@iab.org

                > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

                > 

                

              

            

          

        

      

      

      

    

    


    

  

--------------TUucRRgADZ0FrPr3lHhRM9m1--


From nobody Fri Oct 15 09:38:23 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A7E3A0859 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.799
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=USwIGZLO; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XoYhJV2Y
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bzr39iVMc2-k for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89EAB3A0857 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92F05C017C; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:38:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:38:15 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:from:to:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=x noxvfTmul9mcTuCOFO7amNCJXlmEGdK0pNRfVhFIBU=; b=USwIGZLO30FInwX1k Mv/kMm3OCi3mkzFP5Mw0t/OeY0nim03DJDiuNbnAe23so7N1YJz7cgJ8SL1mursw +yaeISwnb4XgBZK8WIT0NlpH6TfPk2g8h7RnBEo195b2mVIafGayPHjw4BRES6X0 EsEF5N6xz6knCykViMrdwdRw0mpjm5wnPZ2VRFDe98bjx/NOLxghP//jPku8PDT9 FJHp3+p2JGHGE+o7KC5du+xAisrOl1jfNP9zMSUbST5KBlrQAkUbya5hynz+jqU3 xvG7vSyXsI0n7kW7ZS1oqLmlDL/J3FtP/0Ctjo0TkEn6dwtrUfyRb5Cydz7KMEKE JkaDg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=xnoxvfTmul9mcTuCOFO7amNCJXlmEGdK0pNRfVhFI BU=; b=XoYhJV2Y7Dr85txYaGAqHJ/kVFVi1w430ruRNhaYPiQlUYMFZsZ428lk4 Le2AX9zbuc5mvwxjD1tBUaMhWe/HgGJA/DrEn8cGCx+YEPZMg9NQhN2hnr8KixQN wq5AlGzR9ohTBOJlqesR2AwjZJYWCNp3Uy8r+pF7I9nu2l264J01oA3cjHLqE5kC Vqd+sIDmvPYJyjVQm60n7Uc8aX6eG5442tvbQh2U8IKIrRrXQRVIbPlSKD1F6bS/ XCTUR/7rhnyfftN52u4iUcFvhnGPgCNVNi/NQDtSWmJtqe0XAqjNqNeiqNPyff12 p8NxYZQOIyz+mUUi9LOT8Z2oXiQcw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddugedguddtudcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffhvfhfjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfeludeiffduff ehhfeifeefhfdtvedvjeefvdejfffhteefueeifeevgfffgeegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:38:14 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:38:13 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>  
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:38:22 -0000

On 10/15/21 10:09 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/14/21 11:35 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>> --On Thursday, October 14, 2021 09:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote:
>>

>> (1) Why should this group try to dictate who fills the RSAB seat
>> for a particular stream by default?  Using the IETF stream as an
>> example, why not just say:
>>   * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
>>     IESG member selected by the IESG.
>>
>> If the IESG then wants to make a policy and statement that the
>> stream representative is the Chair unless they decide otherwise,
>> that is within their authority and discretion, not that of this
>> process.  Similar arguments apply to to the other streams.

On this point, IIRC we had shied away from saying that the stream 
representative for the IETF stream needed to be an IESG member (and 
similar for the IAB stream), given turnover among IESG members.

Peter


From nobody Fri Oct 15 10:25:12 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372F03A08F9 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VkINfMH1afFu for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 343B63A08F3 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mbQx3-000K77-1J; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:25:01 -0400
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:24:55 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>   
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:25:10 -0000

--On Friday, October 15, 2021 10:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
 wrote:

> On 10/15/21 10:09 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/14/21 11:35 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>> --On Thursday, October 14, 2021 09:38 -0600 Peter =
Saint-Andre
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>=20
>>> (1) Why should this group try to dictate who fills the RSAB
>>> seat for a particular stream by default?=C2=A0 Using the =
IETF
>>> stream as an example, why not just say:
>>> =C2=A0 * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, =
an
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IESG member selected by the IESG.
>>>=20
>>> If the IESG then wants to make a policy and statement that
>>> the stream representative is the Chair unless they decide
>>> otherwise, that is within their authority and discretion,
>>> not that of this process.=C2=A0 Similar arguments apply to =
to
>>> the other streams.
>=20
> On this point, IIRC we had shied away from saying that the
> stream representative for the IETF stream needed to be an IESG
> member (and similar for the IAB stream), given turnover among
> IESG members.

Well, I think that that is a bad idea.  There will certainly be
times when one of those representatives is required to speak for
the stream and the stream's approval body.  Not being privy to
that body's internal discussions (especially after we return to
retreats and other f2f meetings) would be a real disadvantage
and an opportunity for the body to end up needing to repudiate
whatever the representative said on their behalf.  Or we could
get into a situation in which the representatives would need to
poll the relevant body before taking a position (see Note
below).=20

If the consensus is that we want to allow the appointing bodies
to make their own decisions about internal or external
appointments, I'm ok with them taking that responsibility.
However, the document should then be explicit about it because
the text, as written, seems confusing.  Again taking the IETF
Stream as an example, you might say=20

 * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
	IESG member or member of the community selected by=20
  the IESG.

And then, optionally, put words like "when the people being
selected are not part of the appointing body" near "open
nomination process".

As a general observation at this point I am far more concerned
about having ambiguities that then require either reopening this
process or having an extended debate about what to do instead
than about any particular decision.

best,
   john
=20
Note: (open can, discover worms) I cannot find anything in the
document that allows an appointing body to remove their
delegate.  Especially if the delegates are not members of the
appointing body, there better be a way for that body to fire
them.  A simple sentence to the effect that all delegates, once
appointed, serve at the pleasure of the appointing body would, I
think, be sufficient.




From nobody Fri Oct 15 12:53:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C0C3A0C99 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:53:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CKigM8o3b9zo for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1CC83A0C56 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id i5so796865pla.5 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cZt2Fr7x+eioHy60HWLxhcwmlFcmtK1v6ZP4Zk19ULo=; b=gI2JTv9gZquznQdk61VLYprfXTVHem6YfBKqi7LyI/amTLAOKL53HmwMGae3b5Q6JK C9mWqRhS76dbb6XoxT7rJ0Pz1iDQuAq1Bnzx8n1bkVhlq/BNwJprdYWbnnhh6sqy5q0z ZZWnbtUq8NZGSc6jWvjl6Tqrnew3eLlWqzlvl04MUfIsT83A3BfYkg6oSXhGcHywT+Al Rkupp9+l/35yAsRmLGyZPPOWShvtI5orNCu9HLl65gcsaYqvf03NPMiNQGqzwHnC4bn2 4V3B/GZgSIfwJmrPcCc2j0T99sB+6ub6gnf3iLl8fs2X4W8A+Rn/xxbgv+pxEQ6r3at9 sTeg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cZt2Fr7x+eioHy60HWLxhcwmlFcmtK1v6ZP4Zk19ULo=; b=QV3Tzw0ZCiCr3Al64KUiOleAWHttdug6Uum3La3v5XTJ06n+DXsyy8Hk06NmmWkBV3 EV1ZertGonUchDy8Eiy1wCDL2Fn5oBQwmD10APt9Dx69o5ZgIor/78CI2TspFS54udSG w8i4BF8ukNKUv+ISEDAOvuVkcHDuAxb9FBGpj19dBSvGQ56fIKfqXySxc+wCed1EEg5p 9vEf2lU1UlaNuTmO15gh0rQJD10A3WRa922xekpLPu5QJYxdbjlacCuZaGdQ63a6wKeM 15GkrGK/WTIZMKFGnL6Vnbrq8/ghAqI3sN+GSG7qmXWFIj1AnOb0FleGRjBU8VPf8UaI ge0g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tXON+abQLBmV8sqbpdD+W30COWbIU1XMuBK3yTPZ4p0Dajjfx hMCl5i34US0++lqyN+wwPoM9jVMpmCE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5IU0Slfw1ArBECah3/oF1ZZO+1wI7FBlrlmngf/iPO/f+AghYEttLB5sWvddvrcIQh+YXmg==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e5c7:b0:13f:1dd9:1f25 with SMTP id u7-20020a170902e5c700b0013f1dd91f25mr12765529plf.35.1634327591756;  Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x30sm5712977pfj.219.2021.10.15.12.53.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 08:53:06 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:53:38 -0000

On 16-Oct-21 05:12, Michael StJohns wrote:
> On 10/15/2021 9:13 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Same tiny problem..
>>
>> From a chair perspective I=E2=80=99m in the group=E2=80=99s hands. =C2=
=A0If the group wants to go there ok. But I do believe we did anticipate =
and discuss ties. =C2=A0If others would like to reconsider, let=E2=80=99s=20
do so quickly.
>>
>> In any case we still need the quorum question properly answered.=C2=A0=

>>
>> Eliot
>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter  wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least one =
vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one vacancy, which=20
we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.
>=20
> A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.
>=20
> Re Brian's text below - how about simply:
>=20
> "A document requires three YES votes for approval."
>=20
> That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3, and does=
n't need any weasel wording about vacancies or=C2=A0 recusals.

I agree, and again, I don't believe this reopens the earlier agreed text =
except to remove ambiguity in certain cases that we didn't notice previou=
sly.

(Personally, I'd stop there, without Mike's suggested additions. KISS.)

   Brian

>=20
> I might also add:
>=20
> "Any CONCERN vote, with the consent of the rest of the RSAB members, de=
lays the final evaluation of the vote on a document until the concerns ha=
ve been evaluated by the RSWG, any changes necessary have been made and t=
he document is returned to the RSAB for reconsideration,=C2=A0 and for on=
e additional month thereafter.=C2=A0 Any CONCERN vote may be overridden b=
y three YES votes."
>=20
> and
>=20
> "Votes may be made by the appointing organization's designated delegate=20
to the RSAB, or, if the position is vacant,=C2=A0 by the chair of the org=
anization, or as directed by an action of the organization.=C2=A0 An orga=
nization or its chair (under whatever rules they create for themselves) w=
hile recruiting a replacement delegate, may post a "CONCERN" vote to dela=
y final consideration of a document for up to 3 months from when the docu=
ment was placed for consideration."
>=20
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>>
>>> On Fri, 15 Oct 2021, 18:44 Eliot Lear,  wrote:
>>>
>>>     This text has been agreed since the Spring. I=E2=80=99d like it n=
ot to be reopened.
>>>
>>>     Eliot
>>>
>>>     > On Oct 15, 2021, at 03:12, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>>     >
>>>     > =EF=BB=BFI'm replying to Peter's OP, but I've read the thread.
>>>     >
>>>     > My general reaction is that the whole text below is over-specif=
ied.
>>>     > It took many years for the IESG to reach its current baroque (o=
r
>>>     > even roccoco) balloting system. What happens if the the RSAB fi=
nds
>>>     > the system laid down for it to be unworkable, but *the same sys=
tem*
>>>     > has to be used in order to change it?
>>>     >
>>>     > So if I was the dictator, I'd make the whole thing much simpler=
=2E
>>>     > But if that doesn't happen, I would do this:
>>>     >
>>>     >=C2=A0 * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positi=
ons remain, a
>>>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three RSAB =
members vote YES, the
>>>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to=20
the RSWG.
>>>     >
>>>     > In other words, 3 YESes overcome a CONCERN, which is not the sa=
me as
>>>     > saying 3 YESes are needed if there is no CONCERN.
>>>     >
>>>     > I wouldn't define what "suitable" means, but dark green is a fi=
ne colour
>>>     > for a bikeshed.
>>>     >
>>>     > Regards
>>>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian C
>>>     >
>>>     >> On 15-Oct-21 06:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>     >> Now that we seem to be approaching consensus regarding RSAB va=
cancies,
>>>     >> I'd like to see if we can do the same for RSAB quorum (Issue 8=
4).
>>>     >>
>>>     >> First, it seems to me that voting to approve Internet-Drafts p=
roduced by
>>>     >> the RSWG will occur by lodging positions through a balloting s=
ystem not
>>>     >
>>>     >> much different from that used by the IESG, and those positions=20
will be
>>>     >> communicated in such a way that they trigger discussion in the=20
RSWG.
>>>     >> It's not as if the positions of RSAB members will be unknown u=
ntil a
>>>     >> real-time meeting and a definitive voting result will be known=20
only
>>>     >> afterward, with no opportunity for further discussion.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> I say this because our current text in =C2=A73.2.2 reads:
>>>     >>
>>>     >> ###
>>>     >>
>>>     >> [...]
>>>     >>
>>>     >> 9. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will=20
submit
>>>     >> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Within a reasonable period of time, the RSAB will then poll am=
ong its
>>>     >> members regarding the proposal. Positions may be as follows:
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * "YES": the proposal should be approved
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * "CONCERN": the proposal raises substantial concerns that mus=
t be addressed
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * "RECUSE": the person holding the position has a conflict of =
interest
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Any RSAB member holding a "CONCERN" position must explain thei=
r concern
>>>     >
>>>     >> to the community in detail. The explanation might or might not=20
be
>>>     >> actionable.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons:
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or =
group that
>>>     >> a particular member represents.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serio=
us harm to
>>>     >> the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and=20
viability
>>>     >> of the Series.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discuss=
ions
>>>     >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a =
surprise
>>>     >> to the RSWG.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the R=
SWG.
>>>     >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If sub=
stantial
>>>     >> changes have been made in order to address CONCERN positions, =
an
>>>     >> additional call for community input might be needed.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> * If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions r=
emain, a
>>>     >> vote of the RSAB is taken. If a majority of RSAB members vote =
YES, the
>>>     >> proposal is approved. Otherwise, it is returned to the RSWG.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> When a proposal is approved, a notification is sent to the com=
munity,
>>>     >> and the document enters the queue for publication as an RFC wi=
thin the
>>>     >> Editorial Stream.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> ###
>>>     >>
>>>     >> It's true that this text does not specify what a "reasonable" =
or
>>>     >> "suitable" period of time is, and I suppose we could do that. =
But I
>>>     >> think this voting process as currently defined (along with the=20
text
>>>     >> about vacancy handling we're working on) should weaken any wor=
ries about
>>>     >> snap decisions at a meeting with minimal representation.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Do folks have concerns about this voting process, specifically=20
with
>>>     >> respect to quorum requirements? (For instance, we could say th=
at "all
>>>     >> current RSAB members are required to vote" or whatever.)
>>>     >>
>>>     >> (Quorum with regard to day-to-day implementation (e.g., =C2=A7=
4.4) seems less
>>>     >> important to specify in this document.)
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Peter
>>>     >>
>>>     >
>>>     > --
>>>     > Rfced-future mailing list
>>>     > Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>     > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>     >
>>>
>>
>=20
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 15 15:42:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@iab.org
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CF03A0FDA; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" 
To: , 
Cc: The IAB , rfced-future@iab.org
X-Test-IDTracker: no
X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.39.0
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
Precedence: bulk
Message-ID: <163433724305.17026.16994697820948833868@ietfa.amsl.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:34:03 -0700
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] rfcefdp - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 112
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:34:20 -0000

Dear Eliot Lear,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    rfcefdp Session 1 (1:00 requested)
    Wednesday, 10 November 2021, Session II 1430-1530
    Room Name: Room 3 size: 503
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/112/sessions/rfcefdp.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: RFC Editor Future Development
Area Name: Internet Architecture Board
Session Requester: Eliot Lear


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1 Hour
Number of Attendees: 60
Conflicts to Avoid: 

       


People who must be present:
  Brian Rosen
  Eliot Lear

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:07:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B10F3A183B for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=aiJ7pHIg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nfGrHXmj
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URZPZaz0fg6d for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:07:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9473F3A1837 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:07:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912A25C00BE; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:07:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:07:04 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=D kt7ylV5rb5KdfeEcqcf8XxxSVDYKBwz1FDle9xXxuw=; b=aiJ7pHIg2LVQeWR1o 78Sifoxe2nC4FFogLiPpPLsFDsWiD5BgFXk4huBsKq0HWx1HvIKPHAzEIdCfkYe2 4SOalwun0224nCOiTyjVci1G22krfyOSykwx8VgF+yjDWqOpFLgFvnD4oReIuhVT kCBRTA4YrS4eD1j5QQyoca284c94emAdi3i4H46AcZWZbnTLjuhTj/TIh93rfMeA tZfk0bZ4VA9aEDhhfJcdYz+zCWklWdlBcPzjzpPVSOMQTvQ0ZBioER7yBT3RueyU j40WpPBOi3ClirxPvoY5dukkFl2HTjooD6kjNpemQedVncKNKq1L+WfLJC6K9SiQ d9/rw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Dkt7ylV5rb5KdfeEcqcf8XxxSVDYKBwz1FDle9xXx uw=; b=nfGrHXmjbwMJJvi9hx3WfCrA5T1cnXmq3wGcAIw6kHSrooCkJWv3ZhOEA JfHeNsgUsL3FIPbNvj4eW3VJZfESi+GTPm1x3R1GUkTYH/zE7EclZRhNCJEsGYx+ sxcvvkbM+VAJ3RveZd+Mmh0/LpQccb65/+ndI9dQoQz4c/RchgZeIFkW3hwpir9f DGvgYDE9FBWCzuYjbYSM9tSX4VTlmcslVocC3qXnynjcZ6d0YvCEXzRGcMctO2Np J9jseX+oKYDrTPgZaqVFvqGeHmb/XMExNRtl2UPoWvq390XZrhF7ZCTjjcE8RIgR rgG+0BrcH2HQiIrwwTJ/lyGCY2VtA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddguddujecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgff evheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfefgefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:06:59 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:07:14 -0000

On 10/15/21 11:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Friday, October 15, 2021 10:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 10/15/21 10:09 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 10/14/21 11:35 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>> --On Thursday, October 14, 2021 09:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>> (1) Why should this group try to dictate who fills the RSAB
>>>> seat for a particular stream by default?  Using the IETF
>>>> stream as an example, why not just say:
>>>>    * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
>>>>      IESG member selected by the IESG.
>>>>
>>>> If the IESG then wants to make a policy and statement that
>>>> the stream representative is the Chair unless they decide
>>>> otherwise, that is within their authority and discretion,
>>>> not that of this process.  Similar arguments apply to to
>>>> the other streams.
>>
>> On this point, IIRC we had shied away from saying that the
>> stream representative for the IETF stream needed to be an IESG
>> member (and similar for the IAB stream), given turnover among
>> IESG members.
> 
> Well, I think that that is a bad idea. 

Although personally I tend to agree, I don't feel strongly enough to 
insist on it (e.g., a recent IESG member could have more context and be 
more effective than someone who just joined the IESG).

> There will certainly be
> times when one of those representatives is required to speak for
> the stream and the stream's approval body.  Not being privy to
> that body's internal discussions (especially after we return to
> retreats and other f2f meetings) would be a real disadvantage
> and an opportunity for the body to end up needing to repudiate
> whatever the representative said on their behalf.  Or we could
> get into a situation in which the representatives would need to
> poll the relevant body before taking a position (see Note
> below).
> 
> If the consensus is that we want to allow the appointing bodies
> to make their own decisions about internal or external
> appointments, I'm ok with them taking that responsibility.
> However, the document should then be explicit about it because
> the text, as written, seems confusing.  Again taking the IETF
> Stream as an example, you might say
> 
>   * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
> 	IESG member or member of the community selected by
>    the IESG.

That seems fine to me.

> And then, optionally, put words like "when the people being
> selected are not part of the appointing body" near "open
> nomination process".

I think that feedback on list would lead me to removing the text about 
an open nominations process, since people seem to feel it's confusing.

> As a general observation at this point I am far more concerned
> about having ambiguities that then require either reopening this
> process or having an extended debate about what to do instead
> than about any particular decision.
> 
> best,
>     john
>   
> Note: (open can, discover worms) I cannot find anything in the
> document that allows an appointing body to remove their
> delegate.  Especially if the delegates are not members of the
> appointing body, there better be a way for that body to fire
> them.  A simple sentence to the effect that all delegates, once
> appointed, serve at the pleasure of the appointing body would, I
> think, be sufficient.

Section 3.1.1 says:

    Each appointing body shall have the power
    to replace its appointed chair at its discretion at any time, with
    the replacement serving the remainder of the original chair's term.

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:13:22 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BB73A1854 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:13:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=SYr9AmKr; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=NY+aOszB
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m44cUyjukV5K for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 269493A1850 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512735C01C9; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:13:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:13:12 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:from:to:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=d LZuVgRNrP4OsaElHMRb7FdySuebs/abOSSQBjlU32k=; b=SYr9AmKrJgfb89RoD 05wrMZtBB0g3QYtEEurtv4dr0LJ4YwXbeW+XlqmQbuOLhuaqZMRaD4DmNbeGNMfm 0EAcXdKeCvnQx14CM1K+3AeS5MpcbvUKAZbvYCssRajzABFD40PdDhw+4sBdi0QK 9MsL1I1g3Lq7Ok71omABtme9va6ld7sQRZhtpZ6xNZWbXj0lY7wgPQ2yrkrIU7Vw iItCWeypoCAzIPxpPx0fakRQqJNrOfytdDg/j2eFnRRP34jiWf/0Gn9jWkYwf+3v IisouV5P/xUzaS0lIld4OPh910KFBZ4+nOpf0AtnADq5M3nMWsU5gUff2LB3RlpR jlGrg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=dLZuVgRNrP4OsaElHMRb7FdySuebs/abOSSQBjlU3 2k=; b=NY+aOszB8sXRAxijMhXcOjsQj6v4VDeSmgi6W1c/BTFoVl8adbIV9vPjD vpPEMTYPnhBgYug7ZHihlmYOqthnrt5jWd6mQXyWcD9GdbZJqjZ7LQTxhWv37wU4 wVXiGF3E9451wPlVDOB85+QDXA330ZlihTUzU4O20XA+CVI6RP+jGFmaPZYXHn/7 jQPtq6A2SmnikUk1DsK/HbwJUe1or7t2gBWSQS7Sbny/BFa00L/+OEGH+lfEgNR6 PW/+nJQH0Ojzxu486bmA8XsDwQOi+KY/cuJ3AE45GVkdvuyMJD5gYVtI9sIqWNZV mFwkxQ8LvmV3Yp/tbm4UNwOVuv7xg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddguddukecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffhvfhfjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfeludeiffduff ehhfeifeefhfdtvedvjeefvdejfffhteefueeifeevgfffgeegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:13:11 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:13:10 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB> 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:13:19 -0000

On 10/18/21 12:06 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/15/21 11:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>
>>
>> --On Friday, October 15, 2021 10:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/15/21 10:09 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>> On 10/14/21 11:35 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>>> --On Thursday, October 14, 2021 09:38 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> (1) Why should this group try to dictate who fills the RSAB
>>>>> seat for a particular stream by default?  Using the IETF
>>>>> stream as an example, why not just say:
>>>>>    * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
>>>>>      IESG member selected by the IESG.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the IESG then wants to make a policy and statement that
>>>>> the stream representative is the Chair unless they decide
>>>>> otherwise, that is within their authority and discretion,
>>>>> not that of this process.  Similar arguments apply to to
>>>>> the other streams.
>>>
>>> On this point, IIRC we had shied away from saying that the
>>> stream representative for the IETF stream needed to be an IESG
>>> member (and similar for the IAB stream), given turnover among
>>> IESG members.
>>
>> Well, I think that that is a bad idea. 
> 
> Although personally I tend to agree, I don't feel strongly enough to 
> insist on it (e.g., a recent IESG member could have more context and be 
> more effective than someone who just joined the IESG).
> 
>> There will certainly be
>> times when one of those representatives is required to speak for
>> the stream and the stream's approval body.  Not being privy to
>> that body's internal discussions (especially after we return to
>> retreats and other f2f meetings) would be a real disadvantage
>> and an opportunity for the body to end up needing to repudiate
>> whatever the representative said on their behalf.  Or we could
>> get into a situation in which the representatives would need to
>> poll the relevant body before taking a position (see Note
>> below).
>>
>> If the consensus is that we want to allow the appointing bodies
>> to make their own decisions about internal or external
>> appointments, I'm ok with them taking that responsibility.
>> However, the document should then be explicit about it because
>> the text, as written, seems confusing.  Again taking the IETF
>> Stream as an example, you might say
>>
>>   * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an
>>     IESG member or member of the community selected by
>>    the IESG.
> 
> That seems fine to me.
> 
>> And then, optionally, put words like "when the people being
>> selected are not part of the appointing body" near "open
>> nomination process".
> 
> I think that feedback on list would lead me to removing the text about 
> an open nominations process, since people seem to feel it's confusing.
> 
>> As a general observation at this point I am far more concerned
>> about having ambiguities that then require either reopening this
>> process or having an extended debate about what to do instead
>> than about any particular decision.
>>
>> best,
>>     john
>> Note: (open can, discover worms) I cannot find anything in the
>> document that allows an appointing body to remove their
>> delegate.  Especially if the delegates are not members of the
>> appointing body, there better be a way for that body to fire
>> them.  A simple sentence to the effect that all delegates, once
>> appointed, serve at the pleasure of the appointing body would, I
>> think, be sufficient.
> 
> Section 3.1.1 says:
> 
>     Each appointing body shall have the power
>     to replace its appointed chair at its discretion at any time, with
>     the replacement serving the remainder of the original chair's term.

Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:

    If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for any
    reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should
    name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.

However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change such as:

OLD

   The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
   for appointing RSAB members

NEW

   The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
   for appointing and removing RSAB members

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:16:22 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C8F3A18B8 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:15:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=PNYWJuNE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Vruy5Pgi
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YIFIKQjmYyHm for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07AFB3A18B4 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5105C01D9; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:15:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:15:47 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=w AlBAjMkGDI2x0qrAROeEVWLJOisTqRLU/FhHC8QRFM=; b=PNYWJuNEXF5W7LtjB LXtve9NI/22q/HUvWudq6LvcCo6j1IUm1i9NOepCrdpfZjZGBy7S2gI71jD+UKP/ rXSkYxm+F27DlUyI13L+UhzHtURjByU4ct1MVu+ApnZImt1EakuwRzEYhP6tpEjN fFzucx5PxXAmWGiPasU4z+rjWOLL//IBJ18Ol2uAN6otDswxgibhLvADjkQ9EvCi /ZnjqGjMFc/8vt7cHEmvuFbYDb4jrzTZbTe1J/WtDCA4n2KM7Ct/TyMgDuuMONbo Lrr+vY1V4LgSAyipWc0iqlhrtaxBFo9FPOcHtaUrf0j359wbBU7Dd6ogJ46SrbWO pz5FA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=wAlBAjMkGDI2x0qrAROeEVWLJOisTqRLU/FhHC8QR FM=; b=Vruy5Pgi1IFiZyYbDC8oz+t/gS9juipQ6dSQzAdeBBUkwrscv1ZDtuz/i 42eCOwlPyZTfU52H4cWbTkMIKkIgzts4Khm9soReyDvyejFifmwk24/ZHNzdXFfx H0fcC6fQpcIFEVX3xZrarBvu1hjjtCiTrTeH9RHkUxm5oHseOo12f5kDIrxHv7wz gqTEZytNsfVgFKsWCswGqM8hPQ8STEbe6yIyj/W7s+j/h83CX2hXop7uBtvDLA/H RIjvVP/vP9rVuvx7V0lY1nvDv6F628NiGKAllSXnEfHjxZz3n5q0wI77ggdxD5Q/ mM99+uRImhy1WyhDdPyCNJLPFHgNA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddguddulecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevtdfgteetgfffveehtedvudegudfgleevfedtleevtefg feeggffgfeeludekheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:15:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:15:43 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:16:03 -0000

On 10/15/21 1:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 16-Oct-21 05:12, Michael StJohns wrote:

>>>> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least one vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one vacancy, which
> we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.
>>
>> A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.
>>
>> Re Brian's text below - how about simply:
>>
>> "A document requires three YES votes for approval."
>>
>> That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3, and doesn't need any weasel wording about vacancies or  recusals.
> 
> I agree, and again, I don't believe this reopens the earlier agreed text except to remove ambiguity in certain cases that we didn't notice previously.
> 
> (Personally, I'd stop there, without Mike's suggested additions. KISS.)

Agreed. Is there anyone who can't live with this?

Peter



From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:27:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A7B3A189D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5s6n3KfPDqW for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F1743A1899 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id t16so16101611qto.5 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P4bnqVfakwktqmk3Y6+Sw1EqDnDbfGO3uInvPAu9JcY=; b=hpQf5LUQ0WQ5W0rPbuWT9FwPKK8uo0XlNpXdGQMFDBza93LDbBYumYNl55MTnLZRDj mj/ZjfteA9g1x2c6Zc8hBCvGGApb24uaC8+YpfWg3cR6WoiH4e3wfe3iHGaE7ll9Nw50 aH0XgM+YFQMOuA3/7H/VBDbDtHluVSutJ4ojCiLGBZBMVrAf+ZKFvLjBFiEbPbYZXCfZ kCdHtQXWn5v9jLX/2VbPnOspNzFwhuWFF4hH8oTX/RdWPux186jaZIBD8rnb/a/GM41m qMMDuJHEizok8NudcrrWkNS0REIGxLN4ZIew6Hfi3lXJFtOEPQ6MGFG2FAXx61RTPuVy JOjg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P4bnqVfakwktqmk3Y6+Sw1EqDnDbfGO3uInvPAu9JcY=; b=GLDB9iRYCVtUrewE78wIYpXtf2al0261tq2ukJ+UG6lf1bgRMQS+rRXVfUimAspcHE /tiSyn2xIt77+Upc4wXlhOKfZgNZbkA4H6nEG7BjRlRhizSfvnqjHzkPJwi9Ke3yxLED GRivX/l7X5FFJ3GNRwYBUnQ3AYqd4r9zxS9ARQGCFm9fyGhD8FfqJdyHKrkEggZIPpPw UITsFZ+rA7Mn0yVg0yS1BUAcTw57JCeEBbnpjpAmI1kYGK8gBb4p2QJQBYRKBda9yO3m UtoIad6urQhdiQfhTxDVXfs/F7K5Jl8MMUamHz7XB1qMFpWlPe5TpuQt8tKj+yS9UmY/ Q3dg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Xx8P/t2an9AzGP/hhD/NdcD8PTI+tp73tvt0hnqyiZltmQ8LG JmnOIWhHAYwA5DLLZHSTvk9lKRVTtpp7Btzg47o=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmiIe/uc8TXTOni5YEris8OkJgIKKMRuhIbjbw0YtYVKp9lyGFzZguh3rrYoSnzDZ8X/tA8g==
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5794:: with SMTP id v20mr15082211qta.243.1634581619399;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x15sm382539qkp.113.2021.10.18.11.26.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:26:57 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:27:12 -0000

On 10/18/2021 2:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/15/21 1:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 16-Oct-21 05:12, Michael StJohns wrote:
>
>>>>> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least 
>>>>> one vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one 
>>>>> vacancy, which
>> we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.
>>>
>>> A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.
>>>
>>> Re Brian's text below - how about simply:
>>>
>>> "A document requires three YES votes for approval."
>>>
>>> That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3, and 
>>> doesn't need any weasel wording about vacancies or recusals.
>>
>> I agree, and again, I don't believe this reopens the earlier agreed 
>> text except to remove ambiguity in certain cases that we didn't 
>> notice previously.
>>
>> (Personally, I'd stop there, without Mike's suggested additions. KISS.)
>
> Agreed. Is there anyone who can't live with this?
>
> Peter
>
>
With the caveat that there might need to be some additional text in the 
document to resolve inconsistencies once you get the edits done, I'm 
fine with just the "three votes needed for approval" text.


From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:51:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34823A1933 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SatIVaifi3cp for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0304F3A1932 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19IIot6d2144340 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:50:55 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634583056; bh=RqvDfvYkXo9JqiJjOhRtsJ4OIQnwpG5QfrX8ZaU7Tks=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jrLSE60YLbm6QFofcovP8xCuYrpQLK03ganaSTgLxGlh6shKr21yc1+QSw19SBY3u J6NBQd1CQVMBjdBW3QXPIkTVkL7AHBDFP2xcLCQcRGIDKIRGBxBRuJ4I1v9+Axd8hv XdnpXuHAQoSFAG3GJAvP4frq9gMpDQKCtSq32bK8=
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:50:52 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Peter Saint-Andre , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>  
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------WkaqWTq20LgJ0TpngVis7aj7"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:51:06 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------WkaqWTq20LgJ0TpngVis7aj7
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RrKaiJYp6Q0WaDUvmnxeTRYb";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , John C Klensin
 , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>
 
 
 <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im>
 <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org>
 <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>
 
 <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch>
 <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org>
 <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>
 
 <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com>
 <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com>
 <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>
 
 
 
 <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------RrKaiJYp6Q0WaDUvmnxeTRYb
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------kTgG0V2VBWtFoZOIwr1UCVjc"

--------------kTgG0V2VBWtFoZOIwr1UCVjc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------kTgG0V2VBWtFoZOIwr1UCVjc
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------kTgG0V2VBWtFoZOIwr1UCVjc--


--------------RrKaiJYp6Q0WaDUvmnxeTRYb--

--------------WkaqWTq20LgJ0TpngVis7aj7
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFtwgwFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNh
+gf/X/UJCt749MIieYy6fZY1CFIQb4GfZnjh0rr25qVCthCIMgtZUA3GLPlxXocmyBcnYyA7Jl4h
1rxHMZqNu6CmM89p/iPzIyMwqgTHi/YDnBYF1zA8fxNs11K439IkuYeKFjIY6yhOlxtX9+C59CXE
spsPmixzmZ2pMkMkY9b0vA8tzAL5hqBGFob7XzUudKn/3d8K56rJaIyEvRTSMtam6v78BoP3mzec
5icUo+sYtMb3XqrLQZF3WbEXgX+bKMT+6U6HfBz6PRoXwVEame/csTy4aMjWVsSkuQnFl4L2kwSG
jOFCeXurmPajoPtp7e6nnFTSfllwsNAGR6ltvB8rZA==
=5aEK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------WkaqWTq20LgJ0TpngVis7aj7--


From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:57:38 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59FC3A1963 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:57:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=iworKWbe; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IfJmRrq7
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kPJe2v-wxWQs for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC27F3A1964 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74575C01A6; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:57:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:57:26 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=X 1HEfZvgxVjhTGMLtjDsoN+6UgfB05a4hxphzWONcSs=; b=iworKWbek6eVy2G98 bcmt4hHWCabKhqD8nREEjSGPH0pbUKatFcQ1U2CFhoO0d4V9UD5ZkZ84TS8V1rBG 8pSCiyRQGmqj3XxKyJpM2VUjlKe1UhpimRuAuTkDnXAYZAC4ehQOImt9bEIlMWUT AdwtAPzqF0PYf97a3O2IZ4c6ADa14qn33pp1BAQYBlJZkRGKbay0So6V3ptifVUx 8dFrKaGYnryL3hsxFwZxLlQkqokBjIG6X39Q2xJNks3rsqsF04wn7z/ZgJUBcV5d x41SsJAGaxSZdqO1+HFRIfcymguVhksGHnwf/M4lqEgmIO7M1/o8ly7Oqo93QHPM gfrqA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=X1HEfZvgxVjhTGMLtjDsoN+6UgfB05a4hxphzWONc Ss=; b=IfJmRrq7uB3jVJmUuNX/DcIQHJ9MDKFKmE88NvRB9xjdvo28yF8lNsFQL LB6NvtQhiO8C1Dw8iDQ81akWuAACX6v4s50DsHuFHN6Q4Cy65BhM+zbG9TAlLlF4 eW0G8PAcRCemIvhyhiTjg0I2ir/yVUo1SUol84tfR7wB+bLUq6YZ1GrY2y21Ufkx WUuKTaC8iPGW/9sSLc7x+34Bid1SYdFsluN2rBy7KdwparUZhWR21l0LCv5+cqAD sdlmH6OU17xcBkIdZEk00GttOwGQMbiHcl996ivCY2XiSSseerVisWKP17zfGpNw mON99c9Vy40rIHniSAcdPXBgP7n1g==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddguddvjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhgeetgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeu heefleekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:57:20 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <91224ee4-79b6-cbf9-b72a-c5d21f88724c@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:57:19 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eliot Lear , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:57:35 -0000

On 10/18/21 12:50 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Ok, so Peter:
> 
> What text are you proposing at this point?

This is where I think we stand:

###

The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:

* As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member
   or a member of the community selected by the IESG
* As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member
   or a member of the community selected by the IAB
* As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
* As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
   Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
   delegate appointed by the ISE
* The RFC Series Consulting Editor

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing and replacing RSAB members (note that processes related
to the RSCE are described below). If it becomes necessary to replace
an RSAB member for any reason, then for the sake of continuity
the appointing body should appoint a new member to complete the
former member's term. Appointing bodies should ensure that
voting members are seated at all times and should fill any
vacancies with all due speed, if necessary on a temporary basis.
In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or
otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as the
appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall
appoint a temporary member until the IRTF chair or ISE has
been appointed by the IAB.

In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate
as follows:

* Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
   shall continue as normal.
* Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
   be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
   maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the
   RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

###


From nobody Mon Oct 18 11:59:42 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650003A1970 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=OZtHy6jJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=D+wreHEU
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BiGoBuWEt-el for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85A6F3A196C for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E260F5C014E; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:59:34 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=U LE+ocwmL7s53tiJcYbOqWaa4ZBaCIBxnfnow9vPEis=; b=OZtHy6jJEnkCg6z8h +eMM9nXbUQjmPe5F/02xLk4RRZe0h7EvHzJHcAj7B+nEH0wRF3KJdfo1YzO/ZIgd uXAMVt2aJ1BfX3/glvl4OOpeOd+JE5DD5SBv9LUIIA/6ORMca7JEMmhy3O9HfB8r xM7Wqqdsu5Mc8xLS4LYcKk4Bdwdb3Pcs+VX48V6CSNA+eaXrOuZXV5ZyxqqC7fp5 8fEIf8eAzupgGoKysqJe8+DRBgtcc6zIKdxc50/oXOw+iX2TojrIJeQSe56F7ryC WP9lhFIaNWePkBReChGQtIWOzJXXRnXC62mRhSFqJchthLleKp2zwG+CGz8RlxPF NkLQA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ULE+ocwmL7s53tiJcYbOqWaa4ZBaCIBxnfnow9vPE is=; b=D+wreHEUm/5YoGR6e07UXjybfBz1ywh7lYdqXdhX8lZXIBrEbjxlgBlNt eYtttWGw8o8PrDSJhfQpya/wD1ORWl2WsYdVBzWki5ASJkuFEuo3ZTU9LGwAu1No dlo2t6BT+lCJOvkA3sgaKVKia34Q3iVDe+BQCceQG6l++j1llaD2gID/PB9ePjPp poXLWYguZ/I/oQkLoz5FnMIZIHM364QYV7D8poObDNDdfC6LpXCe9mFY6kjzKrCV rAx9SkuDfHI4lWCOa4OEYSdywNp712lW0erdSYQJ4r3EBrzVo5YI//qba0EMaLzO wBdYI/pNVIwIb0lAhMPE+RUJ1V6EQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddguddvlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevtdfgteetgfffveehtedvudegudfgleevfedtleevtefg feeggffgfeeludekheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:59:33 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:59:41 -0000

On 10/18/21 12:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 2:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/15/21 1:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> On 16-Oct-21 05:12, Michael StJohns wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least 
>>>>>> one vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one 
>>>>>> vacancy, which
>>> we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.
>>>>
>>>> A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.
>>>>
>>>> Re Brian's text below - how about simply:
>>>>
>>>> "A document requires three YES votes for approval."
>>>>
>>>> That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3, and 
>>>> doesn't need any weasel wording about vacancies or recusals.
>>>
>>> I agree, and again, I don't believe this reopens the earlier agreed 
>>> text except to remove ambiguity in certain cases that we didn't 
>>> notice previously.
>>>
>>> (Personally, I'd stop there, without Mike's suggested additions. KISS.)
>>
>> Agreed. Is there anyone who can't live with this?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
> With the caveat that there might need to be some additional text in the 
> document to resolve inconsistencies once you get the edits done, I'm 
> fine with just the "three votes needed for approval" text.

And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:

###

10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
     Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
     substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
     positions, an additional call for community input might be needed.

12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain,
     a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting members vote
     YES, the proposal is approved.

###

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 12:38:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555A13A0763 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.89
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3ZpDlI--l5H for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EE3B3A095D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19IJb5T92166975 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:37:05 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634585827; bh=s2Daz50LfqX6K/QrNRd18eEMCVJoGOa35d5Pih14e7s=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=pqEDtCVgON1WeoXrLjihlWj+iEAal9mgYwNb17aqd9P+l17Rjp/hUqE7assf6at39 0oD4HZx2rbWMGsKZ2zDdMQEyu4hHgub+kV3zKTDkuKUNGic1Jy4ebjPd7A5XKWMCeY m9wmvg6jLh6AnLdkDft8In+N+h+uDjbNOPwEKpi8=
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:37:03 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------1QdZUX3pHMy5664XeQ4XuZRN"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re:  Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 19:38:02 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------1QdZUX3pHMy5664XeQ4XuZRN
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DoQr62Nd28jnpO0re93Si6O5";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Peter Saint-Andre ,
 Michael StJohns ,
 Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: CONSENSUS CHECK: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
References: 
 <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>
 
 <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com>
 <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>
 
 <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
In-Reply-To: <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>

--------------DoQr62Nd28jnpO0re93Si6O5
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------o07LM70jd3ev0Yv2D80LDkON"

--------------o07LM70jd3ev0Yv2D80LDkON
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------o07LM70jd3ev0Yv2D80LDkON
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------o07LM70jd3ev0Yv2D80LDkON--


--------------DoQr62Nd28jnpO0re93Si6O5--

--------------1QdZUX3pHMy5664XeQ4XuZRN
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFtzOAFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejN1
Swf/Ux28QfpUoCt3CrlATXiFcHvpqBi/Dg9yT/j5b2SUE//SeC3d6MZQ+J1E34z4YjNYL4NvHNOW
OGY4f62bCPwkjI9Y8qi0QuOY6a2CN7WFqgPZkVs4XZHV6ty4kDa54N78L136YFff7gbOoIzbMMOC
DYOULwshyXEwhWRr10j35rZ1MHzP9FCA5thCBfHbU/OT2yjomCI/idP7Jvw/ErJKOYGExfczJtwp
K+E3Wu+soqZ+ga8DilWt50FZKQEPp6aNUW5UTCzsvEwjTUomGCb/yOd1bHYv1PcguKs6S4vAn+aD
p8GthkvUUshOghsOusrkdgjff3XB3zWkuLw0CoreXw==
=w2p9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------1QdZUX3pHMy5664XeQ4XuZRN--


From nobody Mon Oct 18 12:53:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A0A3A084B for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=HiJ/DlVz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=KSpxSiBR
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UbOCItcivqvR for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51D983A0863 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334A15C01AF; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:53:36 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:53:36 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:from:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=edntqjL2AFq4MFUSi3ECT4fipw UniPX0gWoonCl8jOw=; b=HiJ/DlVz9IKjxGmLXjGV4sJGC/SoQkluCWWRxRYAJK IuFx9QVUUWQs/DpFgaLO7SC5WGTj+eyVr1DWOSFrsnvQkevwJJ2YeZGT6vy7Ngec bRUxNtOBTA+ZVCATx65OWT0cNRvT2XAEPmBxpVImfloEMQdExT5rwcHHLc+PZLYO cCyDIJwjjpqF7C5PaMJPI4hCEPUQLep43CZjhCy9iSeb+ZShUuxopFoYUCaN5TrV Md3YvTWtnF50a8N2FTvQm0AD9BkWx3MPIIf2nIz8zb/Z2lVUYXy39WEbWGnw+ywT LUDTB1+ddbmpliC3IQY7aK9cQd2VxCSuZoCpU44oEBvQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=edntqj L2AFq4MFUSi3ECT4fipwUniPX0gWoonCl8jOw=; b=KSpxSiBRGXsByLgTR9PY8+ UkPDnWJzVURLri9W5UPL/cA3lX572wv8Jlf0hxjsfyDVg7/tgEZOv1nLsR1I18lO 85oNuBBsyPpJKsUvfNWDv6T2XSM3czTUx8QhrHv3Sq4uynUmomHnBDVRTFORkFz8 AKPuvASHYPUE6afOlrbXYU/q5sPyHRYnFYU8uHG2siB5IrOzZvveOVaGeoIpExqB SMWdanZOnAarVZcU5JnSRc0dEL7efwscywt7mpq3MC0JOopNkIjiSc2G62zZbe7k hoBmzalB4W7VNKnvhASPYvGyXRZAMshfmni4nxCocCNTqeGewd8lZJttHWVbuJNQ ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddgudeflecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvffhufgtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvght vghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepjeevtdetteelueevgf eludeiteejvdehkefhteejtddvveegjedtvddtvdeuhfefnecuffhomhgrihhnpehirggs rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:53:35 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:53:35 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 78: IAB docs that need to be updated
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 19:53:43 -0000

Last week I took a look at the IAB documents that might need to be 
updated, per Issue 78.

The most relevant documents (other than RFCs) seem to be the following, 
since they mention the RSE or RSOC:

- 
https://www.iab.org/internet-architecture-board-conflict-of-interest-policy/
- https://www.iab.org/activities/iab-appointments-and-confirmations/
- https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-program/

It's likely that there are more such documents, but perhaps the IAB or 
Secretariat could conduct a more thorough search once we're closer to 
publication.

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 12:58:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC123A088C for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N1x3dtifzjy8 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DCEB3A087F for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:56:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mcYkK-000PeW-10; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:56:32 -0400
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:56:25 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>   <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>  
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 19:56:46 -0000

--On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
 wrote:

> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
> 
>     If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for any
>     reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing
> body should
>     name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
> 
> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
> such as:
> 
> OLD
> 
>    The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>    for appointing RSAB members
> 
> NEW
> 
>    The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>    for appointing and removing RSAB members

Much better.  "replace such a delegate for any reason" does not
necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new text is a
bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as" language is
more conventional especially with "appointing and removing") but
I think your new text is adequate.

thanks,
   john




From nobody Mon Oct 18 12:58:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75E43A089B for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:57:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gi2m4R1mr_SP for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BCCF3A088C for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19IJvA6j2176802 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:57:10 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634587030; bh=Afl2w9lU3NglFKoFoENf4CMBM9wmwamBiGTvh4CMi1I=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=aoxNym1dMFFo8ykmwm7iOu5yrvdRPcCy0TlKYoxBmMXcC8PvXg7DCJt2ZvPNQXiFg ywmRd+R3TA22Gr7AQivfUR6+xXML8uMyVOE0Vz9SoS4cIeYVgmfV6ygj6u4ZTWWdlt qBBHQOQR8gXJ7TGO36NMa3cQZT4XzRl7EBnTRans=
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:57:09 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------dJbd5qy0pglxaqKg5y4RDowp"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] PROPOSE TO CLOSE: Issue 51 (RFC 8728 review)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 19:57:22 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------dJbd5qy0pglxaqKg5y4RDowp
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3tnUIg6raZjUNIOy0jSxpcKe";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: 
Subject: PROPOSE TO CLOSE: Issue 51 (RFC 8728 review)

--------------3tnUIg6raZjUNIOy0jSxpcKe
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ZtFxqNzCc4Q5aFhxX0p6ci68"

--------------ZtFxqNzCc4Q5aFhxX0p6ci68
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

SGkgZXZlcnlvbmUsDQoNClBldGVyIGluY2x1ZGVkIGNoYW5nZXMgYmFzZWQgb24gUnVzcycg
cmV2aWV3IGluIC0wNC7CoCBQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IGFuZCANCmNvbW1lbnQgYmVmb3JlIHRo
ZSAxc3Qgb2YgTm92ZW1iZXIuDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCg0KRWxpb3QNCg0K
--------------ZtFxqNzCc4Q5aFhxX0p6ci68
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------ZtFxqNzCc4Q5aFhxX0p6ci68--


--------------3tnUIg6raZjUNIOy0jSxpcKe--

--------------dJbd5qy0pglxaqKg5y4RDowp
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFt0ZUFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPf
SQgAuZetQTn9xx7GLjWW1DkZ5GBKxFkMfhsVJdZ+no53wcDFBpJ1PY47phjLIT5U6iWnyquDsSlG
2mN4ILC3fNzVuRKn+0AdNVTTOcU1eyrY5MEGHOjMfvIgiRdxhYgX/srELg2M13eWI6G7el7AAS3v
JUqbhmR1/4WVMPOW5t4zMlb7RlA2hQmy01tExWVr4u/BEhOm/J2U7e7SISSTx6dFit9+CZ8iYwYM
pratwhoBjqUPFU4V4sNivm/+z0I1Vy2VecZolLEHXxX2SC6vneIXCMvFnKBDk18C0k73AIKSejlZ
F5ngWMpNu8+CNpIO6e9dDa5XQu1qGyPpAXf38JfCAg==
=Ppsl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------dJbd5qy0pglxaqKg5y4RDowp--


From nobody Mon Oct 18 13:10:23 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699E13A097F for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.802
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=YwrNQq2A; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GRkjh84F
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id egqXEXPulpMO for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A9D83A0976 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3075C01D5; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:10:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:10:07 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=R jydFPkf03d0jXLfGJacCv8vAxUyJflczccBtcBdJqk=; b=YwrNQq2Aktrmo/yjG 50C2C0ezPLWQJppic07lW883WYkA7uU8yma78lssdC+M/fSI3MmAERESeZ/L3VLw 4Wl7ly1R2rjygOeG+QS3cSkbsiKpONiCemvcyS9f5PxA4fIDJYcD1D/XTaQ2tJOd uSogqkeWYHpQZXdPpcBJGU833la/E/t+LLmXWKY//eEhfukX/pWY+JxxoZ/rr+/r eExdJwfXZvEYokRJrodfOH0+SLoOAC6XG0CxsEEaYcJ/UYG2lrj+QCtgGF29532U fnTKY8ITSm99FtPkfXY5lbwt9UEOjyEqvX14i9lkwTN/9H75v08nwoswEFASUWON ryD4g==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=RjydFPkf03d0jXLfGJacCv8vAxUyJflczccBtcBdJ qk=; b=GRkjh84FydqPJLVw3uoa6mlVCTv9XynFPVwwzlNgS1GeHStQZleB7b63v s0OUpADgivClr2AWrRnLKZDq3D8OyKpOvl9UpUhKGisHjVf6269jaG6G5MP+b4yU 1eSplbcGleshBSCCCBtQi3+tJol785esUJSEIowrAXEdBPxGmTwz35qIJ1J1ugDF qLH2eYnAHAu1qkYjQi1rQu/77/lx4jf3ZOq5Y722UJ87sQC5UOaZIf8PSDp4uUBD IMAousom0LBQyeeogdXu36y3h1+BPb1GWlXwbSUO0AOHllosB5AKP0b5OZO6tXHC zA0CdoiC8oL+YRL444yD0dkMdl53w==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvtddgudegvdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhf egteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueehfeelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:10:06 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:10:02 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:10:20 -0000

On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>  wrote:
> 
>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>
>>      If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for any
>>      reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing
>> body should
>>      name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>
>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>> such as:
>>
>> OLD
>>
>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>     for appointing RSAB members
>>
>> NEW
>>
>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>     for appointing and removing RSAB members
> 
> Much better.  "replace such a delegate for any reason" does not
> necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new text is a
> bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as" language is
> more conventional especially with "appointing and removing") but
> I think your new text is adequate.

We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say something like 
this:

###

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE
are described below). Each appointing body shall have the power to
replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any time.
If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason,
then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint
a new member to complete the former member's term.

###

I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I suppose the 
latter is more accurate even though it sounds somewhat harsh. I'll make 
that change, too.

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 13:14:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D243A09E7 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.887
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8u5cxxCRss1B for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:14:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496543A09D9 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:14:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id z69so14620182iof.9 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:14:32 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=MrxBWM/rjybmxvYNSW6Wy9eDogVfAhMOYrsXEDnhRas=; b=ueJj6Jhz22ponw1PbLMTktJs57JlD6MFCG6fZB17Tm5fxWgrFDCYXn6n7OIMZhsPqp WRTVyC76nCoOS4Dxs9fb4KDYkwQXCpFz5Rj17ysMn9AyLcOVNWrnZS40S1Q8gFm7zAiw T8UVgIjlQgt2/eEPqa9axhFgN7SuJCaN2JjI6o5TnhP6CsxedFv5B0SDLfsy9TaMVGET LUKICmYb6hZ9gr1Gd8FX6e2n7RT6Hb3jgCmnQd0E/ZeyyxaxajkBY1xyBMRccbCx//dN vsM5i2yfqjNNPEY+PvnR3IyyEmcwZfYkbNLYIsLES2pCLSV7RzhqimCZa2aoG7P3hckr lBJA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=MrxBWM/rjybmxvYNSW6Wy9eDogVfAhMOYrsXEDnhRas=; b=vIruAJOm9q/TFdPaP+fcohaaD/37r6kkX/DVYCJu/zFwZR3eXllIgdEdhsXZX35geC ccLyu/fGO9gVASFVWndsnjimibToVF53MFPPwcRHuGiUXTsrNIaiIso6RoOcselPsb1n Emkqmt1i50FJB04M0ojVEUp0ysblNDEjCx+K4OwDJR5YjrSLcR27tVf8eLrDBnh7ma1Q lXHo5M93K1BxyBO1q5AwVe/XRfeuPMN7hqFGXnkJTOSs/kakLw3NTD/pDaioofFEY2+Q xvWk5zQJ6SpFuo096Hq+AsDqEoRv0ocrHKy9D+Pqe70c0Yl4AsMK6JQBfXP3h3n0iQTp ZLWQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530IxZpTjiKgQJ0kNO3oMOB/oRQsj09XRoss/gZANEbKWIOV+l5u 3/IBXxd2FLFC7+aQ7uL3IiZ9Ed+A55gARef4
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeslA6jJ1nQVBuTz5v+NZD4+lPuxbBmN35WotPM3i5BYr99gXMfG/UxSHaMyNMu4vmOtYFVQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a02:6a0d:: with SMTP id l13mr1368615jac.92.1634588071876;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n17sm7638655ile.76.2021.10.18.13.14.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Message-Id: <8D8CB3CF-BA51-4CFC-ABC9-3C36EFAF048B@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6DB0131A-F143-43FD-9B24-AB7DFEECBED1"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:14:29 -0400
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB> 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:14:45 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_6DB0131A-F143-43FD-9B24-AB7DFEECBED1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

Is anyone not able to live with this wording?  Please respond ASAP.  I =
will close this issue if we don=E2=80=99t have objections.

Brian

> On Oct 18, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote:
>>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>>=20
>>>     If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for any
>>>     reason, then for the sake of continuity the appointing
>>> body should
>>>     name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's term.
>>>=20
>>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>>> such as:
>>>=20
>>> OLD
>>>=20
>>>    The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>    for appointing RSAB members
>>>=20
>>> NEW
>>>=20
>>>    The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>    for appointing and removing RSAB members
>> Much better.  "replace such a delegate for any reason" does not
>> necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new text is a
>> bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as" language is
>> more conventional especially with "appointing and removing") but
>> I think your new text is adequate.
>=20
> We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say something =
like this:
>=20
> ###
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE
> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the power to
> replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any time.
> If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason,
> then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint
> a new member to complete the former member's term.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I suppose =
the latter is more accurate even though it sounds somewhat harsh. I'll =
make that change, too.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org 
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =


--Apple-Mail=_6DB0131A-F143-43FD-9B24-AB7DFEECBED1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Is =
anyone not able to live with this wording?  Please respond ASAP. =
 I will close this issue if we don=E2=80=99t have objections.

Brian

On Oct 18, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> =
wrote:

On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
--On =
Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
<stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:

    If it becomes =
necessary to replace such a delegate for any
    reason, then for the sake of =
continuity the appointing
body should
    name a new delegate to complete the =
former delegate's term.

However, for the =
avoidance of doubt we could make a change
such as:

OLD

   The appointing bodies shall determine their =
own processes
   for appointing RSAB =
members

NEW

   The appointing bodies shall determine their =
own processes
   for appointing and =
removing RSAB members
Much better. =
 "replace such a delegate for any reason" does not
necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new =
text is a
bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure =
as" language is
more conventional especially with =
"appointing and removing") but
I think your new text is =
adequate.

We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say =
something like this:

###

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes =
for
appointing =
RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE
are described below). Each =
appointing body shall have the power to
replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any =
time.
If it becomes =
necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason,
then for the sake of continuity =
the appointing body should appoint
a new member to complete the former member's term.

###

I have no strong preference on =
"replace" vs. "remove", but I suppose the latter is more accurate even =
though it sounds somewhat harsh. I'll make that change, too.

Peter

-- 
Rfced-future mailing =
list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

=

--Apple-Mail=_6DB0131A-F143-43FD-9B24-AB7DFEECBED1--


From nobody Mon Oct 18 13:38:29 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57343A0B1C for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVYEPB3iqS_z for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B83C3A0B0A for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mcZOm-000Pi3-0u; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:38:20 -0400
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:38:13 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <7EED877918870869FB92C633@PSB>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  <6f230b32-1ab2-6405-0141-01869f0566e6@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB> 
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:38:26 -0000

--On Monday, October 18, 2021 14:10 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
 wrote:

> On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>> 
>>>      If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>      any reason, then for the sake of continuity the
>>>      appointing body should
>>>      name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's
>>>      term.
>>> 
>>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>>> such as:
>>> 
>>> OLD
>>> 
>>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>     for appointing RSAB members
>>> 
>>> NEW
>>> 
>>>     The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>     for appointing and removing RSAB members
>> 
>> Much better.  "replace such a delegate for any reason" does
>> not necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new
>> text is a bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as"
>> language is more conventional especially with "appointing and
>> removing") but I think your new text is adequate.
> 
> We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say
> something like this:
> 
>### 
> 
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the
> RSCE
> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the
> power to
> replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any
> time.
> If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any
> reason,
> then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should
> appoint
> a new member to complete the former member's term.

That would work for me and I think is more clear.  But, as you
said, we are into the realm of wordsmithing and I could
comfortably live with your most recent prior text.
 
>### 
> 
> I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I
> suppose the latter is more accurate even though it sounds
> somewhat harsh. I'll make that change, too.

No strong preference there either.  But, if someone is
involuntarily "replaced" mid-term, it definitely would be
"remove".  I hope no one proposes "fire".  So, for your second
sentence above "power to remove" would probably be slightly
better.  However, in the third sentence, "replace" is correct
because voluntary resignations due to changes of circumstances
are possible and are not removals (I'd hope that would be more
likely too) and should not be confused with them.  "Replace"
covers both situations.  Indeed, if someone is involuntarily
removed, they then need to be replaced.

    john


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:30:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785F43A0D47 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GZ9lP9Wb9xce for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:29:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAB3B3A0D81 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:29:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id kk10so13145452pjb.1 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:29:41 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O0DXNy/WY4ZSZFOq9VLrkbi5fZ/MBhJQzgbCFFZB+no=; b=fT2QH2a2Z9HKkWoyQjXsk0yxduS95jXG7ZMfKdEUG5LMzN7OGstSsSnPWoDDBmVdkq +HsnaKkM5FHhLOvm69+LxAu16rj4I2O8tr70Er4t2285BFG4JLIVhrLkifAMaYqf22uA eNdwbHftItHYXqRCGY98x08JhhDWKt6f7obwk56KFe1Izic3EO6M/wm6geIr4HWsuW2t DUiP8uxvwA4FbFk/APlBwOiZg8N2T5dzytusbgkAqy0sgZ5EGcThhFrGvQ39kTjEY9KF 8iazXf2pJvLPq86lXqU2idHWog39lankL599805TbHcrJ2P+N6qteXEuX9qThTGaueyt bTIg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=O0DXNy/WY4ZSZFOq9VLrkbi5fZ/MBhJQzgbCFFZB+no=; b=Dzp9Z1yPaZsL560mNMNaWbIzrYt/EEjGxFcsJT2UD2yxc5hnQVLnlBeFByHUUe+Fgi kwB9X6kURVEIhwnpZQwsOsefyJ7WqgiCV6OY4+Q14Q5e1pa6BfVNs1iitZIxGZCGosnG y/SKDVnHwkZAMvHvQtSHj6NSvsaD1TjoOBa5OwgFOcQJOjR6CDueM7oQL8WYt04avKrX 9pjChLYn8cyx7erWZHpog0pFzAe1QJPRW1zcSVPYOKOR9pNTVXzJU9KTxVT0A8O8T8P/ 0TNH9hLdRgNOPg6nq98OGpWImrBBNhP6/QkxSeu6d2qk7RvzmVEs6N7UNCSdv/0gFflw eIFQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532jJBtL7Z5cOH6zMYWyDFb3KUAUpnXd7awU9QNSMBLdz7QgkGNN tj3S4/4KBLYpXlFGeCg13NLq48p7I7dPGg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwnZuRLyU7pBwowAOT+AQdavt2jt6emKk4exGmYokkAJuX9KmcFtLEJxhUIErrBl0xjXr2U8Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:1248:b0:13f:cd7d:69eb with SMTP id u8-20020a170903124800b0013fcd7d69ebmr2486625plh.23.1634592581031;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:29:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24sm13866350pfn.62.2021.10.18.14.29.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:29:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eliot Lear , Peter Saint-Andre , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:29:39 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re:  Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:29:44 -0000

wfm

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 19-Oct-21 08:37, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Ok. On this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a=20
> friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus on.=C2=
=A0 If=20
> this causes you concern, can you please comment before the 1st of Novem=
ber?
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
>>
>> ###
>>
>> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate=
=2E
>>
>> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 substantial changes have been made in order to addr=
ess CONCERN
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions, an additional call for community input m=
ight be needed.
>>
>> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain,=

>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voti=
ng members vote
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 YES, the proposal is approved.
>>
>> ###
>>
>> Peter
>>


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:30:41 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AF23A0D48 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zig7E6IBoHh7 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A1543A0D43 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id f5so17410581pgc.12 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A6ElKYhTbeqsZi8wR+E5SO/BSqHkeDSzM/IjKUHf0DE=; b=eDIx6qf4cyWZ0JpWeCSgN+BrboWlsDGWGj6DXrvdr/Smxed8SpTx5TtXf/K1jnMW0a JfjNDDticzVTO/S8DtuCn7VGOtQGYyv2HbYhjloiviRvKX504Ee1FWld7Tdb9Htc3yTn Mse6Hy9ZFUeMF/3mgPmv+E1htwHLjJ2ogbKc5ciOtVrGKz42wEDU8juCWxH3RxQnt6qX IU6zdXteL7P+WbzH6/tYRMubBIDwr1N03WqGj2OIBnlJu1YJhbNq+tlV9Z/QxqPfuu6b omyQc158jgSjWp01MSARqJ4GKARzhs8b4GBrAcBUN1Y/LAUPwgLMkYM1QQqh9S+ALJ7U jBow==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=A6ElKYhTbeqsZi8wR+E5SO/BSqHkeDSzM/IjKUHf0DE=; b=MzRbkwoXIA+Pu3uzAf7o1VdLi/Yh/YOdf8hdNTfK14Z3diDGKZSjChJgJD+0urded8 YTtpqZPPFnBgDJvOQUzdmpGdIV47Zsi9f75v7GwoBya2bhS18n6bgJ0+Wf1jU5ARfgFj 3bzcIbyDbExJXTw1Piu5fiisqRIcxeYiMj9X/2ZxRhYsQUXQWZeX1qWV8VALGICCRhJP L36lmvtf3ASVtwQwxAVH6RWNZZhmHuTfqL4Wi7L7Mb33NKmyLUdlKLXmxz1t9sIVBrMy Qoz4mPxWeOwcKQuHkLCvxk4gtta2MYwhyllGSatx32cXlJdjNoltoGjCAQkT33NdMhO+ GdwA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wEW/5Pr7rZGIAyUXcf2969/sk8ZphIdhHMbtCO53QvbGF/h7K 3dgL+0RovGCmdqpczJ8slfm4C10f5yvPvg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+OinRTwNI0DJCFwRiir47CA5DmgmNYuibMy7/vQSqPb/FU55eDB8RDzLU3DaZtZANfOSZeA==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:b906:: with SMTP id z6mr19625607pge.406.1634592636373;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm14718063pff.191.2021.10.18.14.30.34 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:30:35 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] PROPOSE TO CLOSE: Issue 51 (RFC 8728 review)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:30:40 -0000

I read them and I think we are good.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 19-Oct-21 08:57, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>=20
> Peter included changes based on Russ' review in -04.=C2=A0 Please revie=
w and=20
> comment before the 1st of November.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:33:59 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9FA3A0D61 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:33:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id macIfkeE45Vp for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55BA03A0D60 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id m26so15794899pff.3 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KsuIwnPV1MgJwqpSumkKAKikofFPJYgmukMi+rhiNYA=; b=it5tlcS0xgJRsxKP7bMnsSb63uMGfrBoo7aYt2lYQHiVSuB/q6nnOQuzZAg3yUmk9s ITZDS/ths+DHRDXi3sVO/+uzIodKCZsxZhsO64nOb5k5ouQ3rRHfHpiTlYY30ClvKpDt WLvWNpJf1UtrJWvt+aLMcFWeDBd52TCboZtJbZqtNAKwG0h/6LjcgqOh+5Hge1UYo9Yl ig30B4PbhFwISyb/AIWWu93LhHFzAD1RqpDlCMNpsVuR+ZnV2uWRBe7k/VaMMRx9i01C j3+9btU1aRg9khqKR+k/EVMZVpq7lF1xtyMIq2N3I3sa+EEO5O0imTxgP7Wy4hsPg/zK DUvA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KsuIwnPV1MgJwqpSumkKAKikofFPJYgmukMi+rhiNYA=; b=8HfxZFgIf8w52BKMeTM69kkbrmdgJKsVr/yM6fbMc6x80aBrbplBQeryx3aMfsg/uo OzgBxkrZkdgb0ojcDoq0Yh0/bpHZ8UTbo3ulHXOYcVYdceAdCQ5P2Pe6QEC8FnoLbdc7 st5FaneR8U32Jy3SCy32/RpcYBiMX+cy2cEhaSnGH6HQvpE3+MaB8pboviyPSjltiNwR RTZCFJ9ksfjRRAQCQ+h8VbO2irZbzGl6renQHg0F0xDwqzXc9UUL9t0Nyaftv/wUA/c2 IlDJZKse+gwF3WooiibxTuw3726RfZoToRiQ/qs0n/1y2Dh7WZKmesVASSwFdkRoIwot ChGg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ByFeS9MfjzQk7ts+eFWAQwKM0PgD5RgFT7nZqIbxZacZNbKDP VGNQkratBQl6tpAxUhkhl0XiaqUc8VKs2A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxzEXAoGCL7kEsPeopkwjHzIo7/PwG7GEdv/nv4MhJ4aIZnMW/iP9RjQMRYyi/fsJJV5XGVdQ==
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8189:0:b0:44c:293a:31e4 with SMTP id g9-20020aa78189000000b0044c293a31e4mr31102991pfi.51.1634592831619;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:33:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x20sm353825pjp.48.2021.10.18.14.33.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:33:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:33:49 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 78: IAB docs that need to be updated
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:33:57 -0000

Should we also formally ask the IAB if they want to take ownership
of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter?

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 19-Oct-21 08:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Last week I took a look at the IAB documents that might need to be 
> updated, per Issue 78.
> 
> The most relevant documents (other than RFCs) seem to be the following, 
> since they mention the RSE or RSOC:
> 
> - 
> https://www.iab.org/internet-architecture-board-conflict-of-interest-policy/
> - https://www.iab.org/activities/iab-appointments-and-confirmations/
> - https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-program/
> 
> It's likely that there are more such documents, but perhaps the IAB or 
> Secretariat could conduct a more thorough search once we're closer to 
> publication.
> 
> Peter
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:35:33 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED40C3A0D77 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StPWYTzOOQvK for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 818583A0D74 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id n7so18059942iod.0 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=13pJ0yzpybBjgT29t5GjC8D6m6RW7KF609Av1rTvCqg=; b=Qvfa2iKHt0NvjmNoYabuv85YVgum5w0JrjKCR9VdBgYBabGhsvdQrdsvnBlrlyz17X 4jZygY6KSyRkJGFJ5Xlo2/g6YlsGRL0Cm8beW779zsdpT69eQyxb8vyTWq+ySJkLrYNH EbaqegcQBbaQ6nNT2LiLrDmtYhQnJdf6hkjdk=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=13pJ0yzpybBjgT29t5GjC8D6m6RW7KF609Av1rTvCqg=; b=AMbYNzUWjtq/x6kfnR8fptoo7a9+2fskzQKBtfTVcrlLUT7RrEhRSE1MynM3emSmgb MGpzN2uWqS9fwTBnfPJDqFdsabiexIEd7WwN+rUOqhymyN6H6wWi+9SKNsJZGUSI40gv gaPgmMwq/S0FLR0RVH4Jyd8wyP2u2Boy/PtyZX6LmVzt1jnKlrhkpTmXmKEyzTL5oxWV apWO8sq7cNgn2N5ZM3CvkDqMa7mZzLOjfUSMuNefSuRL7JjZpLb0chFTKD3Mod6ySyGn nZnDfTDEreoHg5jgyrE6G4OG/wXJonH44aMumTAaKiD4hVK1lagydIQHaDU+MtQJLXIX NGzQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZqkRK28E5qIz5o/pCz71aV2zNbf1anFQJYZAOYvapVHY2O2Ug Sf1raLElnwNjOUySIse0uzsM3w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfAXSv4S5I6/botYginscUstWVmtopnmdtFjgCS/jLna9JN6+xRsaXJ1PfBIo7S82X7mwleA==
X-Received: by 2002:a02:a14d:: with SMTP id m13mr1596200jah.126.1634592925482;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:35:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q5sm931206iow.1.2021.10.18.14.35.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:35:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <990feb8e-879e-f5ac-1260-e3b7eef06f43@mozilla.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:35:24 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im> 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 78: IAB docs that need to be updated
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:35:32 -0000

On 10/18/21 3:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Should we also formally ask the IAB if they want to take ownership
> of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter?

That sounds like a good idea.

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:36:22 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334773A0D94 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wSWQYUSB62HI for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:36:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A53F83A0D91 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:36:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:3ccb:588c:7926:1fe9] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:3ccb:588c:7926:1fe9]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19ILa5Y62224840 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 23:36:05 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634592965; bh=C3Qg4AGGQZ4HMOPvkxidWQwcr2pdqeDBKdk2iyB5UlM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=ix4aigpDYgvKnGNFVR4AhQOS9Vtv1ueX9RWmelf3RbrDErE/9fXp/1S90YgbexGbd 7LFX34YoTGufjKxSD19Scx4bU4pgTXGCAULCi47t9OwmVYhDaWnlaqCab5lQpWI31R bU+WI9wOFd8gRBkYCWS9HB6+n0+0r0HTluZwcsyY=
Message-ID: <6610949e-052f-5432-feaf-2dc5e7f5522c@lear.ch>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 23:36:04 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------pmohVxh8tptNF7T4frumRB4e"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 78: IAB docs that need to be updated
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:36:19 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------pmohVxh8tptNF7T4frumRB4e
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Ujg8QhqRcIyvzP1i50hrUaSI";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Brian E Carpenter ,
 Peter Saint-Andre ,
 "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <6610949e-052f-5432-feaf-2dc5e7f5522c@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 78: IAB docs that need to be updated
References: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------Ujg8QhqRcIyvzP1i50hrUaSI
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------Ujg8QhqRcIyvzP1i50hrUaSI--

--------------pmohVxh8tptNF7T4frumRB4e
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFt6MQFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPF
RQgAmulUb2ZcTiodlZSG7I3NlaFyff+nqc1oi6KI+wUwkqIH7eBYUudJ0iyjuCDboTcgSEaBNp8Q
nhfPlu2/YkS8h/+gtgYNF2p6CuGF8FnXSsMDlKdrUaC7+gCd0dbvoTHkV9Jn+oUnPbwurY6IcWFG
I3Y6/11SFmpWeBSEQHywjRvG+sR0iGkFKu+Jw3LPNekRH58WzumhBim+6A5sT46J7lMeBWoKfZRb
LBl8El2R3U5yIO+LBCfXa4cPr710OfPQFiiOX7y7eAIuB+EezPzUi9edSB7t7O5QUBxWllV2whhD
WVEdtUXmc2Fv7ZXKOXwVsCHUS60uWWzjAVglyjfkAQ==
=fAlN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------pmohVxh8tptNF7T4frumRB4e--


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:38:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FE03A0DA0 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrkXVGZecESP for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 040003A0D9D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id y7so15784074pfg.8 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=R+z2+4CA6QdpQNxc242pwZ3rU9heizwzJEJRenRl0II=; b=LJa+aPvnIlquD8QvhZ/MtFBADEEEVeKJprAypBRl1hEUuYfssz7Hvj/YBH8EdO236J mqIRcmgY6Nm0hga3Boa+LZm8hEbpyQ6OyH8/lY7rZ/9fJmeDVao5u7pVFd3UwxfZ0sUX QDnL9lGUDsB6HMOSGnWIgAU7pHdyjdpVAGkL6YVYGPzCtWuLZmT4/U/r5PfEXCr66gFQ J6m9pa7ZxqebTrcF7V3UufPlKKQh9FsfV5tr7hDRfSjqho7x4nBM8EL1rQmL+U0B6gmX e3gaempdWAl0ZKw34WaA5+rDRtgXOmtzL1USl6i3iAdvufbbiM8gyJF/CpIIRlvqiao9 9Y0w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=R+z2+4CA6QdpQNxc242pwZ3rU9heizwzJEJRenRl0II=; b=DPN5zwv9XLL0/twCLlR0LUWXPbDc2AOL2nYY3Mte3yumxyjfGwUdbuFyuu5m/UACR0 GmD+bbF+JUNpIWocBVAcW8H2AQH+mhYgo6gRufeJTpYuKL3P8gQ0MM2VsBpW8RfRbf2W SU5Y95wfG5NvELF2eI1T0/XZs9RWJJCR5WiDgHYL46u1tsT3O09q0EeKk48HcDWZCsiH hOk/R0xbsSHULPiMez27UkhirmpR+RFAmbiglPhyZiggIntEraENNHBUo7nut0AvNO/d 5SoRBXqA7Iz41OR4GiLmDhLYjzJupVwwk1YK9xDR45ObyJ6njsZYRUGHSO+UaCreYLsy ruAQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ncJ+Nc16WgeCcYQJu06kxY4PY8vGfDKp7nVcvicpmneAv9Mq/ 9RZDg+m8dFafOVvyWvkJGC82RM4ieW8j9A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRTtN1fU+7sURVDbNzLISGBupwgZ78VLplXQuQauq9KI/nQi8vjtsmJPudXL7/7je2bid+3Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:e64a:: with SMTP id p10mr25926844pgj.263.1634593073118;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r31sm367393pjg.28.2021.10.18.14.37.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian Rosen , Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>  <8D8CB3CF-BA51-4CFC-ABC9-3C36EFAF048B@brianrosen.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <0f003f27-9032-550f-d3e9-002a9d72c89a@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:37:50 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <8D8CB3CF-BA51-4CFC-ABC9-3C36EFAF048B@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:37:59 -0000

This works for me.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 19-Oct-21 09:14, Brian Rosen wrote:
> Is anyone not able to live with this wording? =C2=A0Please respond ASAP=
=2E =C2=A0I will close this issue if we don=E2=80=99t have objections.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Oct 18, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote:
>>
>> On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>> > wrote:
>>>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0If it becomes necessary to replace such a de=
legate for any
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reason, then for the sake of continuity the =
appointing
>>>> body should
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0name a new delegate to complete the former d=
elegate's term.
>>>>
>>>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>>>> such as:
>>>>
>>>> OLD
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The appointing bodies shall determine their own pr=
ocesses
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0for appointing RSAB members
>>>>
>>>> NEW
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The appointing bodies shall determine their own pr=
ocesses
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0for appointing and removing RSAB members
>>> Much better. =C2=A0"replace such a delegate for any reason" does not
>>> necessarily imply the ability to remove one. =C2=A0The new text is a
>>> bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as" language is
>>> more conventional especially with "appointing and removing") but
>>> I think your new text is adequate.
>>
>> We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say something lik=
e this:
>>
>> ###
>>
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE
>> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the power to
>> replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any time.
>> If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any reason,
>> then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should appoint
>> a new member to complete the former member's term.
>>
>> ###
>>
>> I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I suppose t=
he latter is more accurate even though it sounds somewhat harsh. I'll mak=
e that change, too.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --=C2=A0
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org 
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future 
>=20
>=20


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:42:08 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856F03A0DC3 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=OIVL6vGN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=fALqc6cR
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9EdE4Ddtv91V for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:42:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1D3F3A125C for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:41:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3385D5C0057; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:41:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:41:32 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=q EG57H847S7Rj92JyEzdBGoDYzFKbUjdnenl+F87hn8=; b=OIVL6vGNV9KzbPqir Nf64Bw0aaYYPpMO05L+I8J1QpcawsOJNBnrJpfwS3bRR0hQSIOBe1clowkrtVyJi E/7vLZpomkaGcnTcZkXaPCKS4kSbdNyZS/xK6ufuKBbYtoOb5Sva+D2CjmHdjbGI b4IZsZchkZ20aaxZ5Dp+Jb2+wQenTg9EvT0748HzQPlWZRQSm/+NV7IHWyXZEodV NRKTJzw1qgnfNb+KHn6FxV4qaKa+8Wi8W6oNV+y/EOgQrrd2pgLJEGbUGepFeSc5 XUnXxOPOXw6EPZHzT+ed3OXDyuYOPLCsnDjJFV/wsZQL3V7e+EhbyfZizTzDdKzW jd0qg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qEG57H847S7Rj92JyEzdBGoDYzFKbUjdnenl+F87h n8=; b=fALqc6cR6mU4Muvt7e/hr9te0pC+wRUmKxagV5nxnh2vUzDWfgM77GnjC huSTib/aBfyq8EcT8qOHMqAf4TW3y9FjKHd3fifSu67V74O+Y2rFNma3qTPi+BYT wjHVL+zaq+sOcPWQ1/gzEKRtPVYgRoUso2TDJCqcPzM7+hCk7TSsOzvf1PtIEadQ EKT8L+cIAzJOs6J8zEi97ut1w9Q69xoJUgjSXKT0jftAUwxvE2/qrgBZmK9riiIH +WaUFIPBJi55EOUa3zik9Syvg+6cUf21qUME5yhkJBVO/t9wxFblYaJQorx5p+gR RhMJ8Wx60WEIeEo4yNUTNIpBCk6nw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvuddgtdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhge etgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeuheefleekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:41:31 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:41:26 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> <0F1212FC-61DD-4C63-817F-47DB64BF76A6@csperkins.org> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>  <7EED877918870869FB92C633@PSB>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <7EED877918870869FB92C633@PSB>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:42:07 -0000

On 10/18/21 2:38 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 14:10 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>>>
>>>>       If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>>       any reason, then for the sake of continuity the
>>>>       appointing body should
>>>>       name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's
>>>>       term.
>>>>
>>>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>>>> such as:
>>>>
>>>> OLD
>>>>
>>>>      The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>>      for appointing RSAB members
>>>>
>>>> NEW
>>>>
>>>>      The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>>      for appointing and removing RSAB members
>>>
>>> Much better.  "replace such a delegate for any reason" does
>>> not necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new
>>> text is a bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as"
>>> language is more conventional especially with "appointing and
>>> removing") but I think your new text is adequate.
>>
>> We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say
>> something like this:
>>
>> ###
>>
>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the
>> RSCE
>> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the
>> power to
>> replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any
>> time.
>> If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any
>> reason,
>> then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should
>> appoint
>> a new member to complete the former member's term.
> 
> That would work for me and I think is more clear.  But, as you
> said, we are into the realm of wordsmithing and I could
> comfortably live with your most recent prior text.
>   
>> ###
>>
>> I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I
>> suppose the latter is more accurate even though it sounds
>> somewhat harsh. I'll make that change, too.
> 
> No strong preference there either.  But, if someone is
> involuntarily "replaced" mid-term, it definitely would be
> "remove".  I hope no one proposes "fire".  So, for your second
> sentence above "power to remove" would probably be slightly
> better.  However, in the third sentence, "replace" is correct
> because voluntary resignations due to changes of circumstances
> are possible and are not removals (I'd hope that would be more
> likely too) and should not be confused with them.  "Replace"
> covers both situations.  Indeed, if someone is involuntarily
> removed, they then need to be replaced.

Indeed, I don't think we need the third sentence, since it is covered by 
this sentence:

   Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated
   at all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed,
   if necessary on a temporary basis.

Peter


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:47:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAFA3A0DBF for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:47:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpoPDP8BvERF for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 058663A08E5 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id m21so17426529pgu.13 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uUV4xE3JQEBkEev7krmdI32e2xP+LZ9XGd/tgNRjI9I=; b=d2XWR/EmCiD98SC73ij/bPSPapX17TpSX7WreSAuBBL3x1B8s+AtyI9NhCnsi2P2HK yH9D0vHDEQ18QtuRTcfcO8kWGCvj3sGbK5/asJ8XEC5KUt2RB9k4eFXlpqrcZU0D+1Li UDZ1GvbaKSO0U+2WJ5dvgQRxTxtFoaNIQmiCZpESsyUunMf4NYEpfloLDAPLvuSWlqzd sdiJiq5gc4AipH0Yeud6Wcdvr3Ko+kuhRnMxwrzjg+86ChPzN9vwCcR4lNGpJftdwRTV WnBIx1e3w/5Iodw/ufhFoVwwtVLCI/SSnKZ1aeKU+zm1rX5nqNbNtdiq+UADSdAY4/jU zrUw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uUV4xE3JQEBkEev7krmdI32e2xP+LZ9XGd/tgNRjI9I=; b=FfG9YJgBIDwbGd1l6EuFAhoRjnkkzZYYzn7XZZ4LRxUJ6zRjz+e2elbdJWxheIDgAy i+twM1f4Hf6sQ/reVY6SCE5M/GJb+Y4FsGQez3zHQJK7TM2TconzAQqnc6pliS9dlvPk yvyPkFXrlV6weVjzUVSuxbSiMdt/8mdEYCZSXuL4kUeajqzKE5DpSN5lmyRqwXGeCy0d Y71Jcp6gWqM9GbkgRTC8K9ZjnssF5HAqdXbFrkIOkihWstoqyASqGLXWPX6NRGmgbFJx FGHO69gK8+0KlDY4TWMsLlacJxcJNuifrpTRfy8DinpzEwf2pONC46b5qIl8HeaQ5Zf6 /ohw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309pjVekZg25+wjfX3KyFmmmhr6+O0rGO4Iv5F3sRwqXcF6PqO9 S26Vm4mfrXEiuqeKnHq+g9ohIYmFwc6BOA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJ67E7SsvmXeqZtun+YBYR8Y32b+ELVWNkwjcF9WmH/h/hsZ9gt9DNZX7O/QRNhoyrMczm/w==
X-Received: by 2002:a62:8f53:0:b0:44c:5d10:9378 with SMTP id n80-20020a628f53000000b0044c5d109378mr31100902pfd.19.1634593617277;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm372030pjc.55.2021.10.18.14.46.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:46:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eliot Lear , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <6022561f-ce4b-2913-9526-44758111324f@stpeter.im>  <6610949e-052f-5432-feaf-2dc5e7f5522c@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <57a25b06-339d-d5b2-2ae2-7597966b9285@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:46:55 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6610949e-052f-5432-feaf-2dc5e7f5522c@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 78: IAB docs that need to be updated
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:47:04 -0000

I won't be presenting anything at IETF 112. It's been notified
on the gendispatch list [1], and I really don't see why it needs
meeting time. If anybody thinks it does need meeting time,
please request a slot.

Regards
   Brian

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kO5d-xCRQr5k7e7GMbm=
RZ3tZITE/

On 19-Oct-21 10:36, Eliot Lear wrote:
> I think the plan is for them to comment, but that you should present it=20

> to gendispatch.=C2=A0 Lars / Mirja should comment.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> On 18.10.21 23:33, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Should we also formally ask the IAB if they want to take ownership
>> of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter?
>>
>> Regards
>>     Brian Carpenter
>>
>> On 19-Oct-21 08:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> Last week I took a look at the IAB documents that might need to be
>>> updated, per Issue 78.
>>>
>>> The most relevant documents (other than RFCs) seem to be the followin=
g,
>>> since they mention the RSE or RSOC:
>>>
>>> -
>>> https://www.iab.org/internet-architecture-board-conflict-of-interest-=
policy/
>>> - https://www.iab.org/activities/iab-appointments-and-confirmations/
>>> - https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-program/
>>>
>>> It's likely that there are more such documents, but perhaps the IAB o=
r
>>> Secretariat could conduct a more thorough search once we're closer to=

>>> publication.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:54:20 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B063A0E13 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=NSVCho36; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=egpPyUou
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXAcy3nlDjwu for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:54:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D1303A0E12 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:54:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F105C01FE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:54:12 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=kBQTb 8wqMI0CnprMQP90BgYQSwmAAcfq8KHpVu7mmnY=; b=NSVCho36pwlccO6WbAJrh AMFBJ1K+aRwUlKV2+4NWpoNnqMBF5n/kZuGXXvF8pkzc6M/V/erANFQSTcZKpYWX hYA5/pcNKw3iwQmKpfHmnJrt6KGj9akJXaz7pd87MBbH+XaYmC5xpEgJ4wtoXQ/n 53huL2RfCRUS0eBXZPCmorkpqlhUZL73Z309xu4khxOgK2sNrgUZylr0pBoeVvUH udwtZIWr/4T98n8NwmslFu3keO/tRN61a6mLTYCfCgYnjXEMfxkqKiXk4kLF8NpR KhL4hIieuiA8XgMLSEuPjKQkjh9Mo50Xjh34g2atChB//+MpuyCXsrUayiJoSl++ A==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=kBQTb8wqMI0CnprMQP90BgYQSwmAAcfq8KHpVu7mm nY=; b=egpPyUouhWQ/FmN6nTyy07PD4KfYqj2NuQ4FuAwBOkLlh1WyEhoCBOizF 8JbacHb5lHWjT4N3Q6Ku2esspKjI/BYvwuk+sdRIiO6r7d/aJqOsAxNG/24nqnar c2cvzs37JrjSsp3h1yynr8QaVmq6i1NwmyXb55647q6g5V6OdWQ5GsBUTO0mwqn5 TL4B56/eP+I8KCsYtXHMOPAa0Y+vw75/DmNhcvl1X3diqggbSSTy9REZoUjJIDU7 UHWEH+fT0QQ2PBPS0gd153AhVcOj+4ES/xEk6gsZ+897BG02YnzjlBSoPebtJBkl fmr/wRNwwDnqAAqmhXSgQNAxN64oQ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvuddgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgefftefhteejgfejhf fgfeevjefhffffffefhfdtgffgjeeutdelteekveeuudetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehirggs rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2BA0D3C0246; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1345-g8441cd7852-fm-20211006.001-g8441cd78
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <2b211c59-f003-4b7f-a31f-dc3861d740c0@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: 
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>  
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:53:53 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re:  Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:54:19 -0000

And I.

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, at 08:29, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> wfm
>
> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
>
> On 19-Oct-21 08:37, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Ok. On this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a=20
>> friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus on.=C2=
=A0 If=20
>> this causes you concern, can you please comment before the 1st of Nov=
ember?
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>> On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>
>>> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members are expected to participa=
te.
>>>
>>> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 substantial changes have been made in order to ad=
dress CONCERN
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions, an additional call for community input=
 might be needed.
>>>
>>> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remai=
n,
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three vo=
ting members vote
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 YES, the proposal is approved.
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Mon Oct 18 14:58:37 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94E23A0E5C for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:58:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jxDckZPVxNwl for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E9823A0DE1 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id p4so16778417qki.3 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=K5Dwf1b2KhPjyFdJPcidQ87DnN3+xSNDEhsijHILdCw=; b=ipR46WLDX7BfdrzqMqPhC7t2eIMhwpFrogzBnGX64vwbRAlWBjx7sX0lQsCkKEhD+a ycSGydE55Z8eK7kbAqHkxW2YAxpBDhCVueN0wptxrGHvQTxpiSItdDPr+s/RQcfAJtkl zOqHBiLIC7z8FohNpgIgy1LwJWzI/XRjdXtixTTIJLST61fOdT51X6hYGTVzp2Pm1B/h Zuzuc8iMrxUw9eJPxITnVre7iUun+ppyU7MrBzQZgG8qf//cpEWgmq2akKpu8elVoUlm pQ7x2CaXAUzpaOVL/cuop2ixtqy+juTtcD09oPsoiaT9LLj4XiXMs2fAdeGTkLiubE4/ UBbQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=K5Dwf1b2KhPjyFdJPcidQ87DnN3+xSNDEhsijHILdCw=; b=dl1gS4MP5a/BBxRZba0+5CUwT6PmBWTVvkMV7XbI0acoo9W/DhfoWivZ2gZOunT3Wd TvZl+vZz9ZjBUDsyphlB3eOZlkQcznCDbQjhb12gXdn+urZLGgeNYhiR6rgQx6BM+KB8 AWej73f6ly2vvKf82tkMmmwPz41aNvCcgrwinhXFnKkZmgWiJ9fyQsJfla2fzuPOxHUf dGmCURFDtWO4VgFimRnLN0OkcJdW3Agd2N4SkX3b/jUMPT2nyX7KQd8oTLQMzSG0/FMD MT7yKr3FDMoyxaCB6uWsQLczNymqo9vz8y0VdbaLLZNabhcEi+TR2+2G76SzmKcuuXMk xpzQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/436yogwFI0dFueBOs7WZvBzcJpfIjVFKj74IHCaVIF/6ai6N jxb1k68JuUbRd43vRCO6l/TX71UUjYkAJK877Og=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkSbCij0ipWcgK8EMeCe1E7tda1fcDJi87Qq2zPwwR5D+7SeTMhzwc1CV3e86v2pRJ5LX7+w==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:bb44:: with SMTP id l65mr24028834qkf.64.1634594308751;  Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x22sm1145694qkp.103.2021.10.18.14.58.28 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------chppxt0tCuxeELNpA0GntLe4"
Message-ID: <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:58:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im> 
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re:  Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 21:58:36 -0000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------chppxt0tCuxeELNpA0GntLe4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/18/2021 3:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Ok. On this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a 
> friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus on.  
> If this causes you concern, can you please comment before the 1st of 
> November?
>
> Eliot
>
> On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
>>
>> ###
>>
>> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>>     Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.

>>
>> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>>     substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>>     positions, an additional call for community input might be needed.

Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered approved one 
week after it receives the third YES vote unless a CONCERN vote is 
posted prior to the expiration of the one week period.

[[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited. "without any 
CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when the document is 
submitted to the RSAB, but before any member considers and votes which 
would result in the RSAB being a no-op.   Either my restatement above or 
add "[[one month]] after submission to the RSAB between "CONCERN 
positions" and "is approved" with a specific time period - either as 
stated or something in the 1-3 month range.]]

>>
>> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain,
>>     a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting members vote
>>     YES, the proposal is approved.

Can I say how much I despise "suitable  period of time" here as there 
can be widely varying ideas about suitable?  How about instead that the 
RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB after [[specific period of 
time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has exceeded "suitable"]].  What is the 
forcing function for requiring a vote to be taken?  Or maybe this 
instead (maybe merged with 10):

12 - If,  after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulation of the 
document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the possibly 
revised document to the RSAB,  any CONCERN positions remain,  a vote of 
the RSAB is taken.  If the document receives at least three YES votes, 
the proposal is approved.

Later, Mike


>>
>> ###
>>
>> Peter
>>
>

--------------chppxt0tCuxeELNpA0GntLe4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
On 10/18/2021 3:37 PM, Eliot Lear
      wrote:

    

    
Ok. On
      this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a
      friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus
      on.  If this causes you concern, can you please comment before the
      1st of November?
      

      

      Eliot
      

      

      On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
      

      

        

        And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
        

        

        ###
        

        

        10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the
        RSWG.
        

            Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
        

      

    

    

    

      

        

        11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
        

            substantial changes have been made in order to address
        CONCERN
        

            positions, an additional call for community input might be
        needed.
        

      

    

    
Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered
      approved one week after it receives the third YES vote unless a
      CONCERN vote is posted prior to the expiration of the one week
      period.

    

    
[[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited. 
      "without any CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when
      the document is submitted to the RSAB, but before any member
      considers and votes which would result in the RSAB being a
      no-op.   Either my restatement above or add "[[one month]] after
      submission to the RSAB between "CONCERN positions" and "is
      approved" with a specific time period - either as stated or
      something in the 1-3 month range.]]

    

    

      

        

        12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
        remain,
        

            a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting
        members vote
        

            YES, the proposal is approved.
        

      

    

    
Can I say how much I despise "suitable  period of time" here as
      there can be widely varying ideas about suitable?  How about
      instead that the RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB after
      [[specific period of time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has exceeded
      "suitable"]].  What is the forcing function for requiring a vote
      to be taken?  Or maybe this instead (maybe merged with 10): 

    

    
12 - If,  after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulation of
      the document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the
      possibly revised document to the RSAB,  any CONCERN positions
      remain,  a vote of the RSAB is taken.  If the document receives at
      least three YES votes, the proposal is approved. 

    

    
Later, Mike

    


    

    

      

        

        ###
        

        

        Peter
        

        

      

      

      

    

    


    

  

--------------chppxt0tCuxeELNpA0GntLe4--


From nobody Tue Oct 19 07:23:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7963A08DE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:23:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gr-bUhByHvjR for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:23:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30F803A08DC for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:c62:db09:369a:a4a6] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:c62:db09:369a:a4a6]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19JEN4Qq2729187 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:23:05 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634653385; bh=azH8yhxRc32d1UptezmN7KjeybQYR1pSPVkpbgTF1jk=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=lShss4xcaZOSuyXjgslqjtYD1eFHidYcCsNe9gZyfQM/fcdgaeEUU1KG09quNL123 VKI6iI0TdplMrPEf3TGQ2SewXVtqzgu8zahTHHpF9tDzvRTTANpW1F8f47THN6z6vX 07RUBIS5NcpSWDQhIdPiThqs1M7X8VpcnahhQaKs=
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:23:04 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>  <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0j5nW0XlLRS503a90rqkFwwM"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re: Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:23:17 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------0j5nW0XlLRS503a90rqkFwwM
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------YMZBksgUUF8YfPSwg00MMlF0";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re: Issue 84: RSAB quorum
References: 
 <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>
 
 <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com>
 <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>
 
 <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
 
 <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>
In-Reply-To: <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>

--------------YMZBksgUUF8YfPSwg00MMlF0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------VyUOpEUnb2JDk0ussqryU06Q"

--------------VyUOpEUnb2JDk0ussqryU06Q
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------QxGCRxnZB2zPZ2asCYDuotBy"

--------------QxGCRxnZB2zPZ2asCYDuotBy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------QxGCRxnZB2zPZ2asCYDuotBy
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
Hi Mike,

    

    
On 18.10.21 23:58, Michael StJohns
      wrote:

    

    

      
      

      

        
 

          11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If 
          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 substantial changes have been made in order =
to address
          CONCERN 

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions, an additional call for community =
input might be
          needed. 

        

      

      
Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered
        approved one week after it receives the third YES vote unless a
        CONCERN vote is posted prior to the expiration of the one week
        period.

      

    

    

    

      
 

      
[[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited.=C2=A0
        "without any CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when
        the document is submitted to the RSAB, but before any member
        considers and votes which would result in the RSAB being a
        no-op.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Either my restatement above or add "[[one mont=
h]] after
        submission to the RSAB between "CONCERN positions" and "is
        approved" with a specific time period - either as stated or
        something in the 1-3 month range.]]

      

    

    
Could people comment on whether you support either of the two
      alternatives?

    


    

    


    

    

      
 

      

        
 

          12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
          remain, 

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least thr=
ee voting
          members vote 

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 YES, the proposal is approved. 

        

      

      
Can I say how much I despise "suitable=C2=A0 period of time" her=
e as
        there can be widely varying ideas about suitable?=C2=A0 How about=

        instead that the RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB
        after [[specific period of time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has
        exceeded "suitable"]].=C2=A0 What is the forcing function for
        requiring a vote to be taken?=C2=A0 Or maybe this instead (maybe
        merged with 10): 

      

      
12 - If,=C2=A0 after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulatio=
n of
        the document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the
        possibly revised document to the RSAB,=C2=A0 any CONCERN position=
s
        remain,=C2=A0 a vote of the RSAB is taken.=C2=A0 If the document =
receives
        at least three YES votes, the proposal is approved. 

      

    

    
Again, would people please comment?

    
Eliot

    

    


    

    

      
 

      
Later, Mike

      


      

      

        
 

          ### 

          

          Peter 

          

        

        

        

      

      


      

      

      

    

  

--------------QxGCRxnZB2zPZ2asCYDuotBy--

--------------VyUOpEUnb2JDk0ussqryU06Q
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------VyUOpEUnb2JDk0ussqryU06Q--


--------------YMZBksgUUF8YfPSwg00MMlF0--

--------------0j5nW0XlLRS503a90rqkFwwM
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFu1MgFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNq
WwgAy16JLU7K79c0DWX8TbqH2kiCnRjsBEE0mY0UgUihx7H/5M8o+b4UxrCW/dQjbAa4OcDlQt4k
muy0hmB5dDOYfvBs/WjNZPYNDyd3HpnyJtZ5PX+Kbgh4n57MwHhae75zD3wl4YL1G9tmT3uatkH4
jXMswdAny7sjcjVJsozGg3xvBKYXsmdkZyR3jBuLD6xDd1hHHCeDKiwph/Q7eQSFSDd1KM8IyGjo
IVpzyUIN5yXqmwwrO15e7HFjtTGaDQCV5sCMKqXZj0FMewAA2csy6seNkv9oUpdQFdaHKKboN3/s
A35HVSNAxPF7zo4cnYOSmQlxLJ9hKyNhKOnCVgHbfg==
=G2Tt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------0j5nW0XlLRS503a90rqkFwwM--


From nobody Tue Oct 19 07:39:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B1C3A091C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:39:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aYkfohQhzhXv for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:38:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D47A43A0918 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BB9300C6B for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:38:59 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net
Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id rP6QWsrEjgfb for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:38:57 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58BF5300AE0; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:38:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Russ Housley 
Message-Id: <7B25068C-3FAC-46E0-A372-BE51A5F1427F@vigilsec.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8C68BC6F-46F7-41F3-AA5B-F8BC8F42D586"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\))
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:38:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
To: Mike StJohns 
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>  <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re:  Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:39:03 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_8C68BC6F-46F7-41F3-AA5B-F8BC8F42D586
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

Mike:

> On 10/18/2021 3:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Ok. On this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a =
friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus on.  If =
this causes you concern, can you please comment before the 1st of =
November?=20
>>=20
>> Eliot=20
>>=20
>> On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:=20
>>>=20
>>> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:=20
>>>=20
>>> ###=20
>>>=20
>>> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.=20=

>>>     Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.=20
>=20
>>>=20
>>> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If=20
>>>     substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN=20=

>>>     positions, an additional call for community input might be =
needed.=20
> Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered approved =
one week after it receives the third YES vote unless a CONCERN vote is =
posted prior to the expiration of the one week period.
>=20
> [[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited.  "without =
any CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when the document is =
submitted to the RSAB, but before any member considers and votes which =
would result in the RSAB being a no-op.   Either my restatement above or =
add "[[one month]] after submission to the RSAB between "CONCERN =
positions" and "is approved" with a specific time period - either as =
stated or something in the 1-3 month range.]]
>=20

An alternative approach would br to provide a data by wich ballot =
positions must be posted.  This is the way that the IRSG worked when I =
was a member.
>>>=20
>>> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions =
remain,=20
>>>     a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting members =
vote=20
>>>     YES, the proposal is approved.=20
> Can I say how much I despise "suitable  period of time" here as there =
can be widely varying ideas about suitable?  How about instead that the =
RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB after [[specific period of =
time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has exceeded "suitable"]].  What is the =
forcing function for requiring a vote to be taken?  Or maybe this =
instead (maybe merged with 10):=20
>=20
> 12 - If,  after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulation of the =
document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the possibly =
revised document to the RSAB,  any CONCERN positions remain,  a vote of =
the RSAB is taken.  If the document receives at least three YES votes, =
the proposal is approved.=20
>=20
The IESG has a way any member to force a vote when they think that the =
party holding the DISCUSS position is not working with the authors to =
correct the problem.  Calling for the vote requires judgement, and it is =
a different amount of time in August than in May.

Russ


--Apple-Mail=_8C68BC6F-46F7-41F3-AA5B-F8BC8F42D586
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

Mike:

On 10/18/2021 3:37 PM, Eliot Lear
      wrote:

    
Ok. On
      this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a
      friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus
      on.  If this causes you concern, can you please comment before the
      1st of November?
      

      

      Eliot
      

      

      On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
      

      

        

        And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
        

        

        ###
        

        

        10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the
        RSWG.
        

            Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
        

      

    

    

    

      

        

        11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
        

            substantial changes have been made in order to address
        CONCERN
        

            positions, an additional call for community input might be
        needed.
        

      

    
Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered
      approved one week after it receives the third YES vote unless a
      CONCERN vote is posted prior to the expiration of the one week
      period.

    
[[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited. 
      "without any CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when
      the document is submitted to the RSAB, but before any member
      considers and votes which would result in the RSAB being a
      no-op.   Either my restatement above or add "[[one month]] after
      submission to the RSAB between "CONCERN positions" and "is
      approved" with a specific time period - either as stated or
      something in the 1-3 month range.]]

An alternative approach would br to provide a data by wich ballot positions must be posted.  This is the way that the IRSG worked when I was a member.

    

    

      

        

        12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions
        remain,
        

            a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting
        members vote
        

            YES, the proposal is approved.
        

      

    
Can I say how much I despise "suitable  period of time" here as
      there can be widely varying ideas about suitable?  How about
      instead that the RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB after
      [[specific period of time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has exceeded
      "suitable"]].  What is the forcing function for requiring a vote
      to be taken?  Or maybe this instead (maybe merged with 10): 

    
12 - If,  after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulation of
      the document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the
      possibly revised document to the RSAB,  any CONCERN positions
      remain,  a vote of the RSAB is taken.  If the document receives at
      least three YES votes, the proposal is approved. 
The IESG has a way any member to force a vote when they think that the party holding the DISCUSS position is not working with the authors to correct the problem.  Calling for the vote requires judgement, and it is a different amount of time in August than in May.

Russ


--Apple-Mail=_8C68BC6F-46F7-41F3-AA5B-F8BC8F42D586--


From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:18:54 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9973A0B9A for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:18:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.888
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pb4EPGw0o-YO for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:18:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0274F3A0A62 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id y67so21405900iof.10 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:18:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references:to:date; bh=79os+2d8YXYv2HSlDPyPR/a6qQSPcLazkvrxoj5OXB4=; b=hT0R8p+HM4kuzfgeu4ukgnELSJ9mzphpRPVmcQ1avFhdD42qt3swAWM1VrEzD5ICFr gHEaJPv7FfdUcDpoyfmfdJ2TyFlenn+SjWpIHMCAN6USxZamSAKGsMj74D1KlanXZQ3i 7p9cgT3Kt5XqUxNngJT2l3GeEiJxNTVfAyB24Zu2mgEHNFqxY6ihhIbvXmFu2+0tT7gp Y//E9c+EyqzdqewoUdy5W0pTMNnOUXn09cGDE98ETMr84x4+CRWo8xzqzB2yHY9uCBWd D4OHGzoQ9SJHmqOtJJbg+z2+zw2T26HMne6p7mfSauN7CzZf91ubxyDwK8HVB0JqN5nd tvtw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references :to:date; bh=79os+2d8YXYv2HSlDPyPR/a6qQSPcLazkvrxoj5OXB4=; b=uP9upRBB8cRp35V23UIw/bn5ZJoBBXOTtvcGFmdCm9N/0LuP7irKjl0oxsIaE9pfeW CG1ppqlV8iU3kJ291QsVxOy6Vt1GZofJZirkLtQQDkZ3ss/u+ObykTneXmwjJwSvk06i T92QxupYNj/75YR+PACrgvRyni00ir5YNQk0WpDL77xHZ2FnbBj59YmW0NkgQxqDFQ4h VQv3h7t7FhFifFxNi3g2GgSny+GnvYQOARWjY06+d3Bi/yFgS3RJF5RLZ41QsKGVJrQa opem5zcYyIn5iUfxOnK2xiiNVNti/9I9Tj+ky3Bv/GqUxZUqtjElW8U72rgV7ZRDYMtu RjsA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5301gcxLZvo/GO8UDYTfPaJUNHnuOskesZc0wrB6cNLeumreW2JM DeP/q/2/cK8A/QjnOshmUOt0IagtSKH+LbX2
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEjsH5UJf7otJfbd04SBNw8LBR0qfUqnItiIIB9QZ5Bis0zo2fDvXzFpMRVImBwYO79R9X6A==
X-Received: by 2002:a02:b60a:: with SMTP id h10mr5294553jam.50.1634667490994;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c17sm8660006ils.55.2021.10.19.11.18.10 for  (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A43A195E-2F3F-451F-8C13-08CC421483F3"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Message-Id: 
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:18:09 -0400
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:18:50 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_A43A195E-2F3F-451F-8C13-08CC421483F3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.

Brian


> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
> Date: October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
> To: 
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>=20
>=20
>        Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>        Author          : Brian Rosen
> 	Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 3
> 	Date            : 2021-10-19
>=20
> Abstract:
>   In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>   draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>   moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>   Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>=20
> There is also an HTML version available at:
> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>=20
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


--Apple-Mail=_A43A195E-2F3F-451F-8C13-08CC421483F3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

I =
had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.

Brian


Begin forwarded message:

From: =
internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: =
I-D Action: =
draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
Date: =
October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM =
EDT
To: =
<i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Reply-To: =
internet-drafts@ietf.org


A New =
Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.


 =
       Title =
          : RFC Series =
Responsibility Change Here
 =
       Author =
         : Brian Rosen
	=
Filename        : =
draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
	Pages =
          : 3
	=
Date =
           : =
2021-10-19

Abstract:
 =
  In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC =
resulting from
 =
  draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC =
series
   moved to the RFC Series Working Group =
and the RFC Series Approval
   Board.  This =
document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.


The IETF datatracker status page for this =
draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-202=
6/

There is also an HTML version =
available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026=
-00.html


Internet-Drafts are =
also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: =
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

=

--Apple-Mail=_A43A195E-2F3F-451F-8C13-08CC421483F3--


From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:21:56 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4851C3A0AAB for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.919
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LvkMfG4dzzF for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB8E3A0A0C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB1A0BFC9BE; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Scott Bradner 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:21:47 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com> 
To: Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:21:55 -0000

a bit terse when it comes to explanations for the change

Scott

> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>> Date: October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>> To: 
>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>=20
>>=20
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>=20
>>=20
>>        Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>        Author          : Brian Rosen
>> 	Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>> 	Pages           : 3
>> 	Date            : 2021-10-19
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>>   draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>>   moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>   Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>>=20
>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>>=20
>>=20
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:25:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F401D3A0B09 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JyrLJNlqZ4nv for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:25:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03CFD3A0B02 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:25:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id z69so18356417iof.9 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=IfMzEBVnmxKdlZupKFo7ZKu7OBbmqB9extwDrfKb2+s=; b=oVeRzD6sYsg8NaSec05Q0XWpKWvQqOgj/28q2tScoYcisFLIC1xC+OF2sDgab83yAZ Anw/TBkvvTc7Nbg1Dbb/QzqB1ftlu52R4Db5BR8RCw27lxBHZnAqUSUn5CEUJe+1yatS ZWSGqWin/iqnVOS5uExawYLK5auEfibLB8vJOoTH1EBMO/kYce+TTNDLt2ZFfv6edG6/ 6sCmLD4hcag/ebM1Og4z5PNPoiNy70W0S2DoBrvncBlK1uSVPd1Ryydg47MvHlxH/Q8+ JnKW/dQoAKUJQkBzaAivcpNw4w2GVeiaTNVVNuCL4hQ3Yvz4HeLtY+iYHjDl55Tg7Uli MotA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=IfMzEBVnmxKdlZupKFo7ZKu7OBbmqB9extwDrfKb2+s=; b=lY26bvdBbx7NuzVEW011JrvwNNMGLNjHuZwuINDJT8WKTwP8BRvqTLxy5SQyCIC9Ja MNQ8qMh1twxcLCG5GSqD5oKrcC2KMjR65h8ujCD9HLX0UseFYVcpl3p8ibw01qE5rXh/ cJe0qpr+Q74ZY15AdsN9j1m3zrDqlbDdJXgy3ZM1y8GD6FwASlKEP939+23z+gYgL0Jo mGV/rlo1OLkaqwMdb/Np5PkOPChGXzu2XwSbLqXhp2JOHbcwgocYFJ2MFgFFMEgNbYYd EjLvPKQzJ739ePxgGg7X8jK9sBdwlrhWDODJ+N0r0F/4UWiV/W7YVJtoCt50WHHOcCac eWbg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZJgorUkHWvuFf5Ay496QqoFrFk7I2cpwk/blk0qRl1K6T0ZU1 05mMDjqiVhMv1kjORaGUrgabdcSJ6XaVzoDo
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyVwg6ODICKtSrQui/LCiFS/HCUFCQSOnaIFa+oU7G6s+puE8VnHBi5+Q/4XKBVPV70ZbcOxg==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2c88:: with SMTP id i8mr19595732iow.126.1634667946208;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d5sm8642355ilq.16.2021.10.19.11.25.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:25:45 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:25:43 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <9C76A148-4A62-47C5-8B7A-F069B5AA0B8D@brianrosen.net>
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>  
To: Scott Bradner 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:25:54 -0000

It references draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the abstract says it=E2=80=
=99s because responsibility for the RFC series changed.  What else =
should be there?

> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Scott Bradner  wrote:
>=20
> a bit terse when it comes to explanations for the change
>=20
> Scott
>=20
>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>=20
>> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>=20
>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>> Date: October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>>> To: 
>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>       Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>>       Author          : Brian Rosen
>>> 	Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 3
>>> 	Date            : 2021-10-19
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>  In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>>>  draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>>>  moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>>  Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>>>=20
>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:30:10 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE383A0B46 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.919
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qX-GN6ZuAr_t for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:30:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CA13A0B44 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:30:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C56E8BFCB00; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:30:01 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Scott Bradner 
In-Reply-To: <9C76A148-4A62-47C5-8B7A-F069B5AA0B8D@brianrosen.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:30:01 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>   <9C76A148-4A62-47C5-8B7A-F069B5AA0B8D@brianrosen.net>
To: Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:30:07 -0000

normally there is a section in the body that at least repeats what the =
abstract says but more often
provides a bit more background - in this case maybe a sentence or two on =
the process that caused
the change to take place

Scott

> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:25 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> It references draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the abstract says =
it=E2=80=99s because responsibility for the RFC series changed.  What =
else should be there?
>=20
>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Scott Bradner  wrote:
>>=20
>> a bit terse when it comes to explanations for the change
>>=20
>> Scott
>>=20
>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>>>=20
>>> Brian
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>> Date: October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>>>> To: 
>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>      Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>>>      Author          : Brian Rosen
>>>> 	Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>> 	Pages           : 3
>>>> 	Date            : 2021-10-19
>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>>>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>>>> moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>>> Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>>>>=20
>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>>> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:54:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EB93A058F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:52:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.888
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jNvYF3jmRP-r for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC7733A00D2 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id a8so19424390ilj.10 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=hAwqXvxWYZ1B+nQjmpDB+5xARopMUiaXtclbpYEcf04=; b=5jMWf1nLHrECkDlE/B1gOFHEldEyM5EOPy2C9t0DxZAPcGdpBwrfKMeHZfdoW0v6JO 0jOsHNtiA30LAcrf2IM6MsOjgA/6YKnCwMFSPxNMc09JxF1dDyhIdnpzFHfA+E4BYGvH HQ0XD8tqNgbMW0Sgy0WDV9LTh4eLyCt7vXJyTx1wIuP7Io5TzsOaIg2tPXTp6TD8Wdli Dy842fMNuNYtL7SBxkNyj2I4qJEkzL+dKhO6yAGLr6i2y23Ne+tUHQxtp3ZAky9OI65o B+ZlKRYohWqivDTjV0PN3QK4an/K/GwxtuZjsxx8+yMgKR5BCK4am9qMT47IJEgJ//Dg gezA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=hAwqXvxWYZ1B+nQjmpDB+5xARopMUiaXtclbpYEcf04=; b=gRT1HVOUDcjrGv7jp1zVgxIwD6FuLW6nAFRX0WUYqAp87cdgxGIFTKsA/R3wLt4DzM zFEq+8DulVxNixQDQauIOVvGDr9i1DeDx42AwKL4lDRCeG8t9Jsm0iv9fU3yQV0GDzum I3ssLbuOw7rzsGqnjXn0WDZ80bDYMS4d4stkByLApiSy6D/J63jqBYF3R9HGZ3REHIFx fSnQJY/E6cr65GuP2RJiZemlRDOFsmiW5EPrmipF17IvV6eK5Wp1GGxMMTpxJ4SKkM16 ps9M1921RoCTCiS2cvV/+i7N4RKWrin0CpvBYBvWLa5pX91qdZz2hjjYKgHKpJhTe+uR d/fQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321OcV96w1Kw9195N1aL1gOfeJMo9fW3D3MpIND0RwxCpkNOjB8 JKaI50iGTUC2HexbFNr24YiSYQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFrxVNWvnbXoqGgmnHkPZAYP1O9ogf88T6GAmN2FA/a9lFWBps1GiNMZpoGcg6MvJMux0ZMA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1a8e:: with SMTP id k14mr19197391ilv.77.1634669536410;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u14sm8712808iob.18.2021.10.19.11.52.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Message-Id: <956E8D59-C85F-4768-977D-E47BAF989636@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_172DD050-56BD-4A42-B589-DD7E9273E339"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:52:14 -0400
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
To: Scott Bradner 
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>   <9C76A148-4A62-47C5-8B7A-F069B5AA0B8D@brianrosen.net> 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:52:24 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_172DD050-56BD-4A42-B589-DD7E9273E339
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

How about?

In draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model, responsibility for the RFC series =
moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval Board. =
 It no longer the responsibility of the RFC Editor and the role of the =
IAB in the RFC Series is altered.  Accordingly, in RFC2026 Section 2.6, =
the sentence =E2=80=9CRFC publication is the direct responsibility of =
the RFC Editor, under the general direction of the IAB" is deleted.

> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Scott Bradner  wrote:
>=20
> normally there is a section in the body that at least repeats what the =
abstract says but more often
> provides a bit more background - in this case maybe a sentence or two =
on the process that caused
> the change to take place
>=20
> Scott
>=20
>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:25 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>=20
>> It references draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the abstract says =
it=E2=80=99s because responsibility for the RFC series changed.  What =
else should be there?
>>=20
>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Scott Bradner  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> a bit terse when it comes to explanations for the change
>>>=20
>>> Scott
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>>> Date: October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>>>>> To: 
>>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>>>>     Author          : Brian Rosen
>>>>> 	Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>>> 	Pages           : 3
>>>>> 	Date            : 2021-10-19
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>> In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>>>>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>>>>> moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>>>> Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>>>> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_172DD050-56BD-4A42-B589-DD7E9273E339
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8


How =
about?

In draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model, =
responsibility for the RFC series moved to the RFC Series Working Group =
and the RFC Series Approval Board.  It no longer the responsibility =
of the RFC Editor and the role of the IAB in the RFC Series is altered. =
 Accordingly, in RFC2026 Section 2.6, the =
sentence =E2=80=9CRFC publication is the direct responsibility of the RFC Editor, =
under the general =
direction of the IAB" is deleted.

On Oct =
19, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Scott Bradner <sob@sobco.com> wrote:

normally there is a section in the body that at least repeats =
what the abstract says but more often
provides a bit more =
background - in this case maybe a sentence or two on the process that =
caused
the change to take place

Scott

On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:25 PM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> =
wrote:

It references =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the abstract says it=E2=80=99s because =
responsibility for the RFC series changed.  What else should be =
there?

On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Scott Bradner <sob@sobco.com> wrote:

a bit terse when it comes to explanations for =
the change

Scott

On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:18 =
PM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:

I=
 had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.

Brian


Begin forwarded message:

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: I-D =
Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
Date: =
October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts directories.


 =
    Title =
          : RFC Series =
Responsibility Change Here
     Author =
         : Brian Rosen
	=
Filename        : =
draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
	Pages =
          : 3
	=
Date =
           : =
2021-10-19

Abstract:
In =
RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC =
series
moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC =
Series Approval
Board.  This document updates RFC2026 =
to recognize this change.


The =
IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-202=
6/

There is also an HTML version =
available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026=
-00.html


Internet-Drafts are =
also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: =
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


-- =

Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


=

--Apple-Mail=_172DD050-56BD-4A42-B589-DD7E9273E339--


From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:54:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7153A083C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.919
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9D_yJ9PqTqtt for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFBC3A07A5 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F2FF6BFCD23; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Scott Bradner 
In-Reply-To: <956E8D59-C85F-4768-977D-E47BAF989636@brianrosen.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:53:39 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>   <9C76A148-4A62-47C5-8B7A-F069B5AA0B8D@brianrosen.net>  <956E8D59-C85F-4768-977D-E47BAF989636@brianrosen.net>
To: Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:53:46 -0000

works for me - tnx

Scott

> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:52 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>=20
> How about?
>=20
> In draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model, responsibility for the RFC series =
moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval Board. =
 It no longer the responsibility of the RFC Editor and the role of the =
IAB in the RFC Series is altered.  Accordingly, in RFC2026 Section 2.6, =
the sentence =E2=80=9CRFC publication is the direct responsibility of =
the RFC Editor, under the general direction of the IAB" is deleted.
>=20
>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Scott Bradner  wrote:
>>=20
>> normally there is a section in the body that at least repeats what =
the abstract says but more often
>> provides a bit more background - in this case maybe a sentence or two =
on the process that caused
>> the change to take place
>>=20
>> Scott
>>=20
>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:25 PM, Brian Rosen  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> It references draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the abstract says =
it=E2=80=99s because responsibility for the RFC series changed.  What =
else should be there?
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Scott Bradner  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> a bit terse when it comes to explanations for the change
>>>>=20
>>>> Scott
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Brian Rosen  =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence =
from RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>>>> Date: October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>>>>>> To: 
>>>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>>>>>     Author          : Brian Rosen
>>>>>> 	Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>>>> 	Pages           : 3
>>>>>> 	Date            : 2021-10-19
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>> In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting =
from
>>>>>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>>>>>> moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>>>>> Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>>>>> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 19 12:04:25 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D35C3A08DA for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R78omkEyacPo for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 799EC3A08C4 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id y67so21566114iof.10 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ypKOtDV6n6tVWNqYnLpuvNq1pp3vm7EtPxl8Q0np+5g=; b=Ho5CelCBL0SvBa/bSD26XeZuOYHtPLHtCqrNFlyMz+QydqAUfdqeqm2HCcJlEsJ2A7 T/3G34T+ARnG0ti2iyTuRL/vaN853hCOVASCYRwxEUKW1GTIWDyEQ1v4chTweAwveYBs wAod2Tax6g1qUKKAsSzrJQFMKaQQSNStgvVpczzX34Umar/89R0ECVreRi3MM/JSID9/ p1e62nsIdM8whsmU8HL8CTUTX4PdxgpL+HIYd8Kntv8bk8FuqpR4b2CZxeBQqmfDZCrU lypoQVrn/MwMVDrkyM23COw7zAWJkyAPOyxQc3FXYvqHpncQMqhFGHogXgip+Nti+hbb pSWA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ypKOtDV6n6tVWNqYnLpuvNq1pp3vm7EtPxl8Q0np+5g=; b=hpIJv1Pejj4IlSJycsSqnTJg+4kZNLqbDIbdifNN1e0RsLsGoWrnzEATF4otn/zIuj c7yCogiREo+5oSLo+4B2F8v0WNFQUoB6ALSHz1u0BBP9H4YZ9N+1IflOXSeBlxHmamlW BiydwL6ZdxiNgPnQOlZSIEDNBSxtadxzRhvkkOIziH8sNHNnBdPY7fd+p8mr+O7oSizB 332xzKDuZscrfh2qvrsFP5ghE0/P3uzUHL3jeL7ypt5+VXXZXXgJIAbv7N/OeSoHh0S6 yihqu0v6yx6sitK/Y3w7WnXaIspa/oodMegQuE6sMThOZyMiXKVuj/zkXrOzVqOc/dlE PUGg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532OAihAFOjxT3yqKvaBzkVpM7hODsdSpVJL6BTkQPClZtHYxaXF PEW42nFPTGORPtkgTdHW2c1rfQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4mn6dCnzf6ZthCpb529cEHP1KZ73cMfGyfBX+3Z9FjVjoWODgA7D2Nqvkf+jeOyodFuKRNQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3281:: with SMTP id d1mr10347831ioz.84.1634670254678;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s5sm8806893ilq.59.2021.10.19.12.04.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:04:11 -0400
Cc: Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <41755A22-2739-428D-ABBF-DC540464B3BD@brianrosen.net>
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:04:23 -0000

I=E2=80=99ll give this another day, and then propose to close this issue =
with this wording if no one objects.

> On Oct 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> On 10/18/21 12:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
>> On 10/18/2021 2:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 10/15/21 1:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>> On 16-Oct-21 05:12, Michael StJohns wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2021, at 12:00, Brian Carpenter =
 wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>>>>>> But isn't "a majority" equal to "three" unless there is at least =
one vacancy? My change only matters when there is at least one vacancy, =
which
>>>> we did not consider earlier. It's responsive to the quorum issue.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A majority of 5 is equal to three unless there are two vacancies.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Re Brian's text below - how about simply:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "A document requires three YES votes for approval."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That automatically sets the quorum for completing a vote at 3, and =
doesn't need any weasel wording about vacancies or recusals.
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree, and again, I don't believe this reopens the earlier agreed =
text except to remove ambiguity in certain cases that we didn't notice =
previously.
>>>>=20
>>>> (Personally, I'd stop there, without Mike's suggested additions. =
KISS.)
>>>=20
>>> Agreed. Is there anyone who can't live with this?
>>>=20
>>> Peter
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> With the caveat that there might need to be some additional text in =
the document to resolve inconsistencies once you get the edits done, I'm =
fine with just the "three votes needed for approval" text.
>=20
> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
>=20
> ###
>=20
> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.
>    Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>=20
> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>    substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>    positions, an additional call for community input might be needed.
>=20
> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remain,
>    a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting members vote
>    YES, the proposal is approved.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Tue Oct 19 12:50:58 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CD53A088A for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:50:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OKP9ndaBwRZc for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB2933A0880 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id kk10so791029pjb.1 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OOxkp07VAfxt6z3T9gjunW03yt7d48vJP8TXumxkJk0=; b=iOHyPZy2/JoWknSSCaBPrxE+CfFYNzDtMBxRkuE/sLmFhHLfnLajQyWBK6nLrybSUc b5OqkhoFOokBtwqyhx0lzsJGanhmEXWJ+byvX0XCV1dsKv+TEOh5/Qhf7U5PCFH1fTAm qZs7+V7Vy1OkAHRITo1awgOJdZY+1wg9SlbFv1HKs412dKg16ZtwWTi5wT86E8PHLIyZ N1myxFE5yhgh9Ply78TINhRBtY6kDemZhZV9sEZRZUnCZHeSe7IMaLcNGSQYcHvA85vG Nh0cliPPIxAc1IVTpEUktAg6RfXYhNBrQ8c/txa/h7m37Ijdc3YAaGBYHxVr4fFk/v4V tpew==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OOxkp07VAfxt6z3T9gjunW03yt7d48vJP8TXumxkJk0=; b=uXGMDCQTcutnNvx/gUhbxfoAF7OeWCZn0cQFM1Llmz33e3SvyaQAHUOkEqUjsDL8Al /GFC39H+tLLuDFP9vzC+y8vzB1RYVBk1PdPn3UuHsZZ/jPwul78GmflyC2AsrpU3LhSa rtFZZfqaIxQ2XK3yOfpGPXMzikNGcm7yMwKYl3TgE4m/3HHezXfG04AXx8bUFuHXGocb 2sHMvBYh19AOrYV8Nr00ZvhEAL+jDC57ijAloQZFimmiz24As7+yVVJa6MEb1lCp2r23 e4QxTP+wMElKjmLwbO3unrgV8na/jyTvtiwgW4pOdha8MvLZqNATJPV4AFHVGXjAFGA9 BwVw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GO+ugVK3LEHsZ9xGsvKWEuW/zmwSTRtVBQnNmRDII+2kRNoE4 w1l5p/hcb6MxvmPTWBvIIKDbokl6hsYz1Q==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwXvESlY/s/YEvoN0PooL1vZzAb2WT9ABWUQrX2Y0LSdYxUAbcIVAeqLxQdgT8+PbUJUpHX4w==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1804:: with SMTP id lw4mr2035624pjb.174.1634672953651;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d14sm44210pfu.124.2021.10.19.12.49.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian Rosen , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:49:13 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:50:55 -0000

Thanks for this.

> Intended Status: Informational

Should be BCP.

I find the "Here" in the title a bit odd.

I will now remove the extraneous note about this from my IAB charter draf=
t.

Regards
   Brian

On 20-Oct-21 07:18, Brian Rosen wrote:
> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from RFC=
2026. =C2=A0This accomplishes that task.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org 
>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt*
>> *Date: *October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>> *To: *>
>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org =

>>
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.
>>
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: RFC Series Responsibility Change He=
re
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Author =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Brian Rosen
>> Filename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: draft-rosen-rfcef=
dp-update-2026-00.txt
>> Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: 3
>> Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
: 2021-10-19
>>
>> Abstract:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC result=
ing from
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC=20
series
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series A=
pproval
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Board. =C2=A0This document updates RFC2026 to recognize th=
is change.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/ 
>>
>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.htm=
l
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
>=20


From nobody Tue Oct 19 12:59:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520143A0945 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ajD0Pk2-erX4 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D9833A0906 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id k3so9288770ilo.7 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8R1OYY6K97xAXIsBAzoUOGGKSxalzQ5WOj8cfju/0Sw=; b=ayfioPIF61k9tAOAwGlkTvMcsj79WyvEpcBAkdKK5lDQwCzJo9+SrCfGG4EVByyIzW zEyvT/Fq/Nfm0XroSl4YZBzTatm8Bif8qThAw3TM0orFFFlLoIlCa2I2GQmCrbbLmpmE lP81UybhlHsx/LBi+IC1iHETT28Lo3iBGe2rJcAxy110VJRp/8DMGkvKLG4B0ZFDEToH EFQ6yny9XR8J7bO9bmL3+fCt0zXoRxdWXy5NlnI8VQaXY3eS/CqDi+au5aX+DWHKzIJB DnuSYavF8hBHF02RKSxU2NP89NrjNLEpScuMdpBXx83ppGG0PFYprivCHAlU3G/T/ZWP RAIQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8R1OYY6K97xAXIsBAzoUOGGKSxalzQ5WOj8cfju/0Sw=; b=2uSLkWkQbpaNYo2XXrLdK+WwcW8xH+3zmqq5gH+1E7bSasglm+yFZ18TenASoPvIaS 2PPlc1K+UBwDp0a7SQl9g5Ao+jd9M84SJ9t1IYvND8dNg4JLbj0SwCvMtN+ovAPss58n Rr10CTUkl1YqntyS/0WKjvasHgCEnBrTDZWsCs3nTf2dWe7fEvnh5MR4I94G+ogc8DKY 1v7DHktB6xwhqx8ON0j2wMP1dHMOXwjqEL4uPxQ9Q5n7mN5dohqLjhb0pmoFphcEkHkb jueGag/LgHWHm5Al6ddkej9PdxmEiVpXvK9FrS1vRvhH4DczMjyNMlFp2u2w1qIg7iZ1 Aqeg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hUfPDV7R17UrGXkwOusRcgBevuS9SENRaz9ShGUdxV/B9erfS 0L0rhhqqtpsKTzD4qqXPdP9m0A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxzJQilgDNS3+uhPzm99LJ0jXNympSOKOoBTM6C+dcK/oVbP1tTXU/N0xh6xnIvYiuiH4L2kQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1ca8:: with SMTP id x8mr20823567ill.150.1634673575725;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y12sm45620iow.2.2021.10.19.12.59.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:59:33 -0400
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <82472A34-33D1-4CDC-AB77-F5FD33E01EDF@brianrosen.net>
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>  
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:59:45 -0000

The =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=9D shouldn=E2=80=99t be there (here!).  I will =
delete it.  I will also change to BCP.

I=E2=80=99ll hang on until tomorrow morning and submit an -01.

Do I need to get this on Genarea dispatch?

Brian


> On Oct 19, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for this.
>=20
>> Intended Status: Informational
>=20
> Should be BCP.
>=20
> I find the "Here" in the title a bit odd.
>=20
> I will now remove the extraneous note about this from my IAB charter =
draft.
>=20
> Regards
>   Brian
>=20
> On 20-Oct-21 07:18, Brian Rosen wrote:
>> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from =
RFC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>=20
>>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org 
>>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt*
>>> *Date: *October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>>> *To: *>
>>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org =

>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>        Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>>        Author          : Brian Rosen
>>> Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>> Pages           : 3
>>> Date            : 2021-10-19
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>   In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>>>   draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC=20
> series
>>>   moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>>   Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/ =

>>>=20
>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>> =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.html
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From nobody Tue Oct 19 13:00:13 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199653A08DE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5eZd6kjRVh8Q for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03D663A08DA for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id pf6-20020a17090b1d8600b0019fa884ab85so717986pjb.5 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:references:to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pd9uqZLIftUTLfAtQK8Cg6dlM2S2duwXosjKMteLQdU=; b=cOqQBjdULLzoRC2YXdBkDQGmHs/ZxlKBQebEv6PBkDggNWJ7wXbt5hMSpFfsy1NSwM Xr7ypxXh+SC7T0nUNjFqUlmk3GSV4XeYOE7F1uTBLLIFiHgSZ3zKIZtKo2krbxdAC52e 8AW+wkvoys/JtpAnC0nArLJFbJKZ49ZV9RnAoPEaMr7kJh8d2q58ySpavCKsWj3anFbj 6zfLovY72hYUXfxlAMuRYbM5XOAih4jfui1VYU3bzUTYSJrOxM2kvJMFgjyxIF86P2JV 7JWdrGJ1KiVt5OTekx4SaHzfLVKuPU/7HRfqybDF6aJVXAH65w4yzimr+b3P88h3juCj 1EdA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:to:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pd9uqZLIftUTLfAtQK8Cg6dlM2S2duwXosjKMteLQdU=; b=3UOC7fkdYIQo9sZGhZuxUPtU/llNNr+OsG5Tr5Oz6Oc7WCzEVtcwR3I/iMj/dDu2ho nrARzr4EVHv4dTlrfcsLCMFGF09y6lsXMxmHjDmq++WkaqDIrqbZTCWJ/CVA+dsu5SG5 NIukf94t75rF6/nsTw1cUPlZKXv4ngqYNzHAok1MmIZTd/RXC/Bu3We+6TNklCSzUgi1 JARQkJextKWhZBFhDi1u+5Cst09Bdu1sle7cERZOIOBQASNBmh49iN8LtXVK9mpxmel7 VfKj5cXuUpkwOdA5olatKzupYObaqfTwXOlil8BXuGqxU+bqVVltEA3F8K4Uy+nbvvHx zhUA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533iD1hOua6KqWDmYyzumkGC+IQL1xT6muNdZLetmD5FRQDaBOZp lG86kQ+OzZ0ljNEKF017/t1oyRmRSyOAWA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzlMMP/FAHwXuehu1UTTSHPPWVSD2WfBaxu6xd7yn/pDykzPRJI1f6m6uQzhL80v84iWnDcPA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:de0b:: with SMTP id m11mr2218713pjv.39.1634673605570;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k14sm5410pji.45.2021.10.19.13.00.03 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
References: <163467345077.27716.6810613303463985685@ietfa.amsl.com>
To: rfced-future@iab.org
From: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <163467345077.27716.6810613303463985685@ietfa.amsl.com>
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:00:04 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <163467345077.27716.6810613303463985685@ietfa.amsl.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 20:00:12 -0000

As promised:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.txt
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:57:30 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor Model
        Author          : Brian E. Carpenter
	Filename        : draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.txt
	Pages           : 4
	Date            : 2021-10-19

Abstract:
   This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be consistent
   with the new model for the RFC Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-
   model).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


From nobody Tue Oct 19 13:07:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0D33A0AA1 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VPUgKDGUEpUC for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:07:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 267563A0A9B for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:07:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id kk10so822440pjb.1 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:07:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZUT1d3YIXfn7gH9vQh5kk65h6cSPKaUXwXwtCbwPDx4=; b=lqUqn24JEAvffaf1Mm6X30TRy2H0+dbqVHNHQk9lfc5mkWUd+KXQx6+6JnlCwcT4AN wo51rLEHCDLdl8FBRyBsk2gra9vZkF/Fo0zkvCbpdkvuMbLVv3mCbGX1vUJpUHXGSaM7 sRc1R9pEoWIUKhpifmAN44g5ztjEJT9i0Xyp615rkoo1eJBZ3ZA+IKYFXBonBEpmXcer PlBpnPJ92NPxau4yuqBRr828veW6YL+2732Jqrhwfs4OqQy8Fnf8yhsmZD3sd9813+zO A6/VlhJIS6wSUWy1ESWSNfdddHef3nXRGZcMY+4Iq02Yks47ANhnFMvH0Av0YKM0XYrB SSGA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZUT1d3YIXfn7gH9vQh5kk65h6cSPKaUXwXwtCbwPDx4=; b=qrB1WgJC6OfHuJn+AMf8BlSpiUN1KSdLCggF2tIuXJBsgahFiGcc2woRwVtF07eDZd STJFi+1HjP+RYH43Ao8T5LIDr9K9MeIgAUwU0ABUrMSiv3ZO0C34r+/KUI6CByCAb376 JY513aPWWu0XIGs+La6nBNzIGwh9TkwTHxjYaL6qXI2EHmE7qJhLt1sg0N1MexGsH8tg XOj5btwPf6RZNxrcxWwOL0nzIW0G7u3dEqcz68ZhFyvFNTD4FECQ/SaVsZqEfyPOIj3V wHFc/D50Wa1LK7dz/L/2PR3mRoTZKPZmbk1sfTOppkdk7Qf/LmLjkhT9blP4bIM/WJD5 ybRA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LuP4KIsWLxnAsHGpVsqqrgJwkD96cXA44YCAuR/+mTKI6QiiU IQvFO5XYwobH+B4cvCBsr5YSQLAt7JQ7VA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlzXulx91eBFsZg+cYl4kXBdJYbn1a8Gk96dgMeg0gosiGN0Nsl8NsuFKlAODvFi1aTQHO1Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9744:: with SMTP id i4mr2140478pjw.241.1634674040827;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:07:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id om5sm13558pjb.36.2021.10.19.13.07.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:07:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Russ Housley , Mike StJohns 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>  <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com> <7B25068C-3FAC-46E0-A372-BE51A5F1427F@vigilsec.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <6c60a2f7-3764-6b8b-638b-4f1a3d9c4a27@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:07:19 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <7B25068C-3FAC-46E0-A372-BE51A5F1427F@vigilsec.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re: Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 20:07:29 -0000

Russ said:

> An alternative approach would br to provide a data by wich ballot posit=
ions must be posted.  This is the way that the IRSG worked when I was a m=
ember.

Yes. But once again, I feel we are likely to over-specify. After a year o=
r two of experience, we'll know the right answer. I'd say nothing, but if=20
we must say something, state that positions must be stated within X days.=20
The value of X is arbitrary, but since we assume that RSAB members follow=20
the debates in the RSWG, it could be fairly short.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 20-Oct-21 03:38, Russ Housley wrote:
> Mike:
>=20
>> On 10/18/2021 3:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> Ok. On this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as a =
friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus on.=C2=A0=20
If this causes you concern, can you please comment before the 1st of Nove=
mber?
>>>
>>> Eliot
>>>
>>> On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG.=

>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Again, all RSAB members are expected to participa=
te.
>>
>>>>
>>>> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 substantial changes have been made in order to ad=
dress CONCERN
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 positions, an additional call for community input=20
might be needed.
>>
>> Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered approved o=
ne week after it receives the third YES vote unless a CONCERN vote is pos=
ted prior to the expiration of the one week period.
>>
>> [[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited.=C2=A0 "witho=
ut any CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when the document i=
s submitted to the RSAB, but before any member considers and votes which =
would result in the RSAB being a no-op.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Either my restatement=20
above or add "[[one month]] after submission to the RSAB between "CONCERN=20
positions" and "is approved" with a specific time period - either as stat=
ed or something in the 1-3 month range.]]
>>
>=20
> An alternative approach would br to provide a data by wich ballot posit=
ions must be posted. =C2=A0This is the way that the IRSG worked when I wa=
s a member.
>>
>>>>
>>>> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions remai=
n,
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three vo=
ting members vote
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 YES, the proposal is approved.
>>
>> Can I say how much I despise "suitable=C2=A0 period of time" here as t=
here can be widely varying ideas about suitable?=C2=A0 How about instead =
that the RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB after [[specific per=
iod of time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has exceeded "suitable"]].=C2=A0 =
What is the forcing function for requiring a vote to be taken?=C2=A0 Or m=
aybe this instead (maybe merged with 10):
>>
>> 12 - If,=C2=A0 after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulation of t=
he document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the possibly r=
evised document to the RSAB,=C2=A0 any CONCERN positions remain,=C2=A0 a =
vote of the RSAB is taken.=C2=A0 If the document receives at least three =
YES votes, the proposal is approved.
>>
> The IESG has a way any member to force a vote when they think that the =
party holding the DISCUSS position is not working with the authors to cor=
rect the problem. =C2=A0Calling for the vote requires judgement, and it i=
s a different amount of time in August than in May.
>=20
> Russ
>=20
>=20


From nobody Tue Oct 19 14:37:00 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CCA3A0E24 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 52a8ZZXDQg0W for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF3263A0E1E for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id d9so1125508pfl.6 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qtp6RQQiit5XY0g752s2RZg7WUMLrA0vFISabFRd1Ww=; b=IimNEIKBoc0THIlQLCe0uJtgEkl/eKoKiiuJAm9bw9q0LqQ4Ppe86LwYxpBc8uiK2p xmd48HELtF9/cW98DpGQOFUG4lbkiWA/jwUCNpSuOlDItFdfD9KIvuf+SonzXCZRg3xp N+r2ugp/pctikB4QaipRGMyv1yDQOcJoaR2afKUwOq3LW/4g/pjsEl6mhTl0UzzxwdgN y9suiuvgl/DfQnb+a/KKsUJr59d6ZaCtl4h4LKBvuDEvz3PjosJD23h6/wZVhMmUI5pX cEv1Sidqdzv9JjWn0LbFKaIIQ4aeGik7BgVZZh+HScggL8fs7vkW5y6QaBCcBL7yUN+h /6jA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qtp6RQQiit5XY0g752s2RZg7WUMLrA0vFISabFRd1Ww=; b=BJPeRrOv7zpfZVLzETIP13S9uMOXoox79tm/xeoTlvQsmbsX7UPu8FwqMX3Tc4LFI7 LYLqv9KUoHXqbgNTAKVw800dnxdUyj0IofJWT8uIR/mHCoMwqEgze3Kyclusd2aG7foj PzUgf2j1bf2G6Kh1oZiDZspj7j1IgSslu/yarXpYrQ2R+mC92RyGUDuGK683UIHneIBY HawgS6H3abGdZdnG3onLr7lKvQnaUdodxWaecN3g1im7Bu1hZ/2M2dpeSMI3ORuutI0t hahDBY+cTOhsudeDE9cnl3Lrj/Vnrpb2B4ykH0bHWU0TrA9IjIIdb0NMfHMa7GaAyOtD N4Dw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cbu4FLbI6v/Q4aDwOGnmPADbQWUueK8SeXE0T24UiVcaD7Yqu cSoOtFkwgwv6R87hw+vJL/CftHppWd9jSw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylfPYeSa8E4H+Bxd1yw6f1rX93QCUB0AroQysBSXEew+OZvgvXLEziHyYdhvW2dq7J4Db4/g==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:dc13:: with SMTP id s19mr30293647pgg.233.1634679406433;  Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n22sm109219pjv.22.2021.10.19.14.36.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian Rosen 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <163466740449.13684.17057724810949943703@ietfa.amsl.com>   <82472A34-33D1-4CDC-AB77-F5FD33E01EDF@brianrosen.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <4508cf77-4191-6fcb-cf04-2e0340a6fe2e@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:08:56 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <82472A34-33D1-4CDC-AB77-F5FD33E01EDF@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:36:56 -0000

Yes, I think mentioning on gendispatch is necessary. Whether they really =
want to waste meeting time on trivia is their choice, I guess.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 20-Oct-21 08:59, Brian Rosen wrote:
> The =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=9D shouldn=E2=80=99t be there (here!).  I will =
delete it.  I will also change to BCP.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ll hang on until tomorrow morning and submit an -01.
>=20
> Do I need to get this on Genarea dispatch?
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>=20
>> On Oct 19, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for this.
>>
>>> Intended Status: Informational
>>
>> Should be BCP.
>>
>> I find the "Here" in the title a bit odd.
>>
>> I will now remove the extraneous note about this from my IAB charter d=
raft.
>>
>> Regards
>>   Brian
>>
>> On 20-Oct-21 07:18, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>> I had an action item to create a draft that deletes a sentence from R=
FC2026.  This accomplishes that task.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org 
>>>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt*
>>>> *Date: *October 19, 2021 at 2:16:44 PM EDT
>>>> *To: *>
>>>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d=
irectories.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        Title           : RFC Series Responsibility Change Here
>>>>        Author          : Brian Rosen
>>>> Filename        : draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.txt
>>>> Pages           : 3
>>>> Date            : 2021-10-19
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>   In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from=

>>>>   draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC=20
>> series
>>>>   moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>>>>   Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/ 
>>>>
>>>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-00.h=
tml
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>
>>>
>>
>=20


From nobody Wed Oct 20 07:02:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9603A0926 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mL87LEfEUdF1 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:02:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 948F73A090D for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:02:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id h196so24794243iof.2 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:02:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pS0itCfyFeeuFBHxb9dpyafA6nzC442KthJSc/VZc0w=; b=L/wCEDnPviybT98Z3U1pLDu+wU2M6t6gHUG5tsaK1lVDKbgQfMNxsR1JEdwcv+UYzU ioFtsi9t2alxEZWbEUZn4RMk0/wBOIfvtM2afOOOA+2fmhB6fseClMlySk7j/c0LKu1l mRBx3U89piq5nQLutT1KcGJ/iAheSZJKmRphIUOvlHk8XnObowaF8IpEpu0mCZWZ5kuj wg8kaqJtd8W1ze5VRQiiqeWkDA+l973VyzMwlwbubq3OOfQJc1h+Xbp2/qZ7Jbc6ZMCU jiM4HbMamlv2EmCKGx76PfnzH7o3ySPL4FqZCUZH2KmUUm/llZIZEBhVSvQ8OWTZ6ety AlcA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pS0itCfyFeeuFBHxb9dpyafA6nzC442KthJSc/VZc0w=; b=5lyGSDjmlzcKD7oc9pKDfUXCZ85d3+svBWd8OpkVpZwc4GEFPOxq1UBruE4d8TbZqx q8E3GPnXmUnNE+xy+PCp61Qehp7HkI8CGUBmKLLetGVu2fOWNOEiW3yuPRDEz5QiSrGD EvLwLrrNnJyg9NjRd/1lJdcruOTkxxk0i108XGe19sGqP28xlxdBwaWPV84SwPf216VL xnrZU1fDApp5Gi67C1tPsMFtEJckoLQtprSDZ+alLLqwqWYzcMYHgee4iw2EtJfXo5l3 Ku5kgaVkGN64FBs9J29mgcn1KuHDRps16aDpZ297vSiDgbbVwtm/R9E0yCVjM/VODd5W CL/w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530d8CaoD1u4jODPJFEU6C5690/Un9SsvyMFIvgMLl/BW97vztLG +fKJMQ2wyjlhlrFYc860fML49A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzeIb5oDrcTcXLLyRNkoDChLLageKxKnbnahILniK3BolanBS2Ppkw+H8RHQGEmw1Ct1Ntxqg==
X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9d9c:: with SMTP id ay28mr23745097iob.206.1634738553528;  Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 188sm1083881ioa.22.2021.10.20.07.02.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: <6c60a2f7-3764-6b8b-638b-4f1a3d9c4a27@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:02:31 -0400
Cc: Russ Housley , Mike StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <07C15E63-EF01-41EB-BF95-08F030479B7D@brianrosen.net>
References:  <64A167E8-048B-4192-8386-8DC0B140EAFD@lear.ch>  <93689f0a-2584-a1f3-6f04-1c619b3cb58a@gmail.com> <240787ce-8aff-1873-7463-fb8b25d97dd5@stpeter.im>  <16b4164e-0361-432b-3e13-9858db186120@stpeter.im>  <7ed922bb-3a46-e4cc-1e3b-923d2ddfbc9b@nthpermutation.com> <7B25068C-3FAC-46E0-A372-BE51A5F1427F@vigilsec.com> <6c60a2f7-3764-6b8b-638b-4f1a3d9c4a27@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Re: Issue 84: RSAB quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:02:42 -0000

We would like to close this open item.  I haven=E2=80=99t seen anyone =
agree with Mike on his proposed edits.   Russ, can you live with the =
proposed wording?  Does anyone else want to see something along the =
lines of what Russ proposed, taking into account Brian=E2=80=99s =
concern?

Comment are still open until Nov 1 at the latest.

Brian


> On Oct 19, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> Russ said:
>=20
>> An alternative approach would br to provide a data by wich ballot =
positions must be posted.  This is the way that the IRSG worked when I =
was a member.
>=20
> Yes. But once again, I feel we are likely to over-specify. After a =
year or two of experience, we'll know the right answer. I'd say nothing, =
but if=20
> we must say something, state that positions must be stated within X =
days.=20
> The value of X is arbitrary, but since we assume that RSAB members =
follow=20
> the debates in the RSWG, it could be fairly short.
>=20
> Regards
>   Brian Carpenter
>=20
> On 20-Oct-21 03:38, Russ Housley wrote:
>> Mike:
>>=20
>>> On 10/18/2021 3:37 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>> Ok. On this issue, I would like to know if this can be accepted as =
a friendly amendment to the earlier text that we reached consensus on. =20=

> If this causes you concern, can you please comment before the 1st of =
November?
>>>>=20
>>>> Eliot
>>>>=20
>>>> On 18.10.21 20:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> And here's where I think we stand on the quorum topic:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ###
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 10. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the =
RSWG.
>>>>>     Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate.
>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 11. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If
>>>>>     substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN
>>>>>     positions, an additional call for community input=20
> might be needed.
>>>=20
>>> Instead: 11 - A proposal with three YES votes is considered approved =
one week after it receives the third YES vote unless a CONCERN vote is =
posted prior to the expiration of the one week period.
>>>=20
>>> [[Part of the problem with 11 is there is no epoch cited.  "without =
any CONCERN positions" would apply to the document when the document is =
submitted to the RSAB, but before any member considers and votes which =
would result in the RSAB being a no-op.   Either my restatement=20
> above or add "[[one month]] after submission to the RSAB between =
"CONCERN=20
> positions" and "is approved" with a specific time period - either as =
stated or something in the 1-3 month range.]]
>>>=20
>>=20
>> An alternative approach would br to provide a data by wich ballot =
positions must be posted.  This is the way that the IRSG worked when I =
was a member.
>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 12. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions =
remain,
>>>>>     a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting members =
vote
>>>>>     YES, the proposal is approved.
>>>=20
>>> Can I say how much I despise "suitable  period of time" here as =
there can be widely varying ideas about suitable?  How about instead =
that the RSWG may request a final vote from the RSAB after [[specific =
period of time]] [[if it believes the RSAB has exceeded "suitable"]].  =
What is the forcing function for requiring a vote to be taken?  Or maybe =
this instead (maybe merged with 10):
>>>=20
>>> 12 - If,  after discussions with the RSWG; any reformulation of the =
document to resolve the CONCERN issues; resubmission of the possibly =
revised document to the RSAB,  any CONCERN positions remain,  a vote of =
the RSAB is taken.  If the document receives at least three YES votes, =
the proposal is approved.
>>>=20
>> The IESG has a way any member to force a vote when they think that =
the party holding the DISCUSS position is not working with the authors =
to correct the problem.  Calling for the vote requires judgement, and it =
is a different amount of time in August than in May.
>>=20
>> Russ
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Wed Oct 20 09:13:47 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CA53A08CC for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:13:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.103
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=rMiy+H3a; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=KhlXpvkT
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rGVWc12bG99t for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00E873A08DA for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897593201C40; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:13:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:13:32 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:from:to:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=e 5En5qj45yC4hcHOsOCwJn+kk5amfldZeP3IWs4zeu8=; b=rMiy+H3aM7fnjfgGr ccEb+KoQ+/Auu3m/XrHmXAQ4zwJ3PydAveBpK7+nQUTKUmzyuEQPSsujejviDnZn Ca7B3RrSDGstpOoBioW82p3p2r7Tl+dckq+zyqcjYB+pM30lkZdN21XdxrnMI8Di G1xudCG2/Gplyhwx7WB3MKktl/tdUJH5Lc44SYB3Py6HuB5k6Jtnub0eAXKOSEYz uKyzRPAEhNLoDo9+W6MtHzw6es3xXEwTap9wZL3iV782cCVOHCkbPQ6nguMa0ICW 47XEZFMyuXfpNGQtj116M3pCY6QmDVSYjaOw3mGFrmQMTqSTRlYi/LSBy2zeqTlJ KG7Jg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=e5En5qj45yC4hcHOsOCwJn+kk5amfldZeP3IWs4ze u8=; b=KhlXpvkTh0994J8NqbjuKSGqiQZ6RJJ0s0DCasJLjai51gCIjkB+BnLTk PZyhqsuBWQYjzFtSopMeunMdTPYS1R1sgGyYUfXBcNdFK4KNPt4x7Uusx+WfdS6H 8K8bgJUngqL4AVl9n4ZLdqoGI7QMnoeGnxfGKKa0RdTOBV9QsSzfT5GiI7ZDyIeZ yHFurrrAkhVAlFYmL1NsTeR9xVmelw+rmxMP8dutyvkdHXbBuuzVHu/DLAmJ3vAU uTktti+B1BK8I0ORW58Io2DkTA2ddtVsVWd3VCVufsxWESPbOAMmc8k8p890E1ot 1dJDhzyaUYf54MUyF2D/nTKceR41Q==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvgedgleefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuhffvfhgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefhleduieffudffhe fhieeffefhtdevvdejfedvjeffhfetfeeuieefvefgffeggeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:13:31 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <23227e6d-5c06-1cf9-f6e0-338b3d6fe937@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:13:31 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im> <2a4fd97a-43fe-21e5-9903-1799bd6a8daa@lear.ch>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>  <7EED877918870869FB92C633@PSB> 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:13:44 -0000

Having completed this wordsmithing, here is the text I propose:

###

The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:

* As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member
   or a member of the community selected by the IESG
* As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member
   or a member of the community selected by the IAB
* As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
   or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
* As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
   Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
   delegate appointed by the ISE
* The RFC Series Consulting Editor

The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE
are described below). Each appointing body shall have the power to
remove its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any time.
Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair
or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
the IAB (as the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE
respectively) shall appoint a temporary member until the IRTF
chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB.

In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate
as follows:

* Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
   shall continue as normal.
* Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
   be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
   maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the
   RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

###

On 10/18/21 3:41 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/18/21 2:38 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>
>>
>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 14:10 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>>>>
>>>>>       If it becomes necessary to replace such a delegate for
>>>>>       any reason, then for the sake of continuity the
>>>>>       appointing body should
>>>>>       name a new delegate to complete the former delegate's
>>>>>       term.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>>>>> such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> OLD
>>>>>
>>>>>      The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>>>      for appointing RSAB members
>>>>>
>>>>> NEW
>>>>>
>>>>>      The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes
>>>>>      for appointing and removing RSAB members
>>>>
>>>> Much better.  "replace such a delegate for any reason" does
>>>> not necessarily imply the ability to remove one.  The new
>>>> text is a bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as"
>>>> language is more conventional especially with "appointing and
>>>> removing") but I think your new text is adequate.
>>>
>>> We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say
>>> something like this:
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the
>>> RSCE
>>> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the
>>> power to
>>> replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any
>>> time.
>>> If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any
>>> reason,
>>> then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should
>>> appoint
>>> a new member to complete the former member's term.
>>
>> That would work for me and I think is more clear.  But, as you
>> said, we are into the realm of wordsmithing and I could
>> comfortably live with your most recent prior text.
>>> ###
>>>
>>> I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I
>>> suppose the latter is more accurate even though it sounds
>>> somewhat harsh. I'll make that change, too.
>>
>> No strong preference there either.  But, if someone is
>> involuntarily "replaced" mid-term, it definitely would be
>> "remove".  I hope no one proposes "fire".  So, for your second
>> sentence above "power to remove" would probably be slightly
>> better.  However, in the third sentence, "replace" is correct
>> because voluntary resignations due to changes of circumstances
>> are possible and are not removals (I'd hope that would be more
>> likely too) and should not be confused with them.  "Replace"
>> covers both situations.  Indeed, if someone is involuntarily
>> removed, they then need to be replaced.
> 
> Indeed, I don't think we need the third sentence, since it is covered by 
> this sentence:
> 
>    Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated
>    at all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed,
>    if necessary on a temporary basis.
> 
> Peter
> 


From nobody Wed Oct 20 13:28:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BEFA3A0913 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0xXHS8xpuzfQ for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x531.google.com (mail-pg1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73BCF3A08AC for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x531.google.com with SMTP id s136so20315029pgs.4 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kVquwYRGNvV8d18E2U6Nn1bcQaICrAONU41NIO6bJFs=; b=VJDQ/Wt3xPxIoI0RezqNAmAYS0LVtC7GfyDODsk6o2uooPJKdifT/Myt918+mfWRA4 cd/hPXmKMlbqXYFi+BeZ7BILCRD8boRZ0VJU0JhpmvfJYrhu39t1wxDRcHAlOSVesw5I 5jcOmlaXHI1hIJKXKsD7nqKN3qf8Y3+fPiP9NuG4jZA9yecW5uS7Z8Dk5L2t2oC04JR5 +/xc6aPxJZ6ZqKw54+Um6MS5aIQazFnu7VAFoRNW6RRC/GE7yPgfcm+m45h9bR3kII69 IkHVeXh/dFJxPJgFJNM+27e+i9Z5Fh4h2zDW4Fzh6bcWZR+Bi1nM8SicesFhFu05xvvW GhtA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kVquwYRGNvV8d18E2U6Nn1bcQaICrAONU41NIO6bJFs=; b=gs4pXJW4Pe+mc07mE/O2lCipjO97EEMPR9m9TOQbBirCqj7RdaClYpk9p4QMsOA86J ex1ghBqCft85CMSpz03QKNyy9WAXjw7boilNt2vEiLtKHaU+W1GsEK3N3XmpAawjMSvF ZjD1LMKZFw5TAYFMCdz42QfqS8WXR/phGKKHEZ10vHSg1IQg/6jCx5orYD5IuX3HhHYx tTtC376RaSKJST06sdabLsLrHWNoc5r1G3CpP/DZUmQ+j0xOpL8zv0ZQx/I8Cu/DpAlm LaMq/2gLwZpXfQttB8WyLGnMVt8cTp9FA6A8S3d8y+PmZH2liji8deGovhdhCkzcXPG+ UeYg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tmFmO2xnPmYRLt5N4nFgo/Qd+2SpoNCdt/ud2GTt6gkwMWe1z hEv22CX3UeCyzBrc0Vx1ObMps1Z1JuY53w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+rguXKU5HGSmuZzSYx9X7PiUYPC41yQBFiUajpI88F1kQEH3QjEFGslzcAHvag/XEHdLtng==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:7052:: with SMTP id a18mr1115893pgn.466.1634761671196;  Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:27:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s8sm3321209pfh.186.2021.10.20.13.27.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <1a1edae0-1ca3-b317-bc9f-d673b142caa5@stpeter.im>  <0381c14d-d8ba-cffe-2703-6496a272d7a3@lear.ch> <78C632F7-A441-425C-8729-5D7A54B56B02@csperkins.org> <16e3080f-cc85-a9b6-b4a1-098b5393b7d8@gmail.com>  <67363afc-6f67-b24d-7f52-49a490b7e372@nthpermutation.com> <0526a9e3-7deb-6fb9-3ab5-845b93b03f24@nthpermutation.com> <5812de7d-adbe-38d3-5175-e38cd35d3ed1@stpeter.im>    <73F6CA006769C968995CFAE8@PSB>   <86E185AFD55553F4609A90C0@PSB>  <7EED877918870869FB92C633@PSB>  <23227e6d-5c06-1cf9-f6e0-338b3d6fe937@stpeter.im>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <6b6db6ea-6f11-55dc-c7ed-9fcdae6c46c4@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:27:46 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <23227e6d-5c06-1cf9-f6e0-338b3d6fe937@stpeter.im>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 82 revisited: vacancies
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 20:27:59 -0000

wfm
  Brian

On 21-Oct-21 05:13, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Having completed this wordsmithing, here is the text I propose:
>=20
> ###
>=20
> The voting members of the RSAB are as follows:
>=20
> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member
>    or a member of the community selected by the IESG
> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member
>    or a member of the community selected by the IAB
> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair
>    or their delegate appointed by the IRTF Chair
> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the
>    Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) {{RFC8730}} or their
>    delegate appointed by the ISE
> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor
>=20
> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE
> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the power to
> remove its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any time.
> Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at
> all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if
> necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair
> or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate,
> the IAB (as the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE
> respectively) shall appoint a temporary member until the IRTF
> chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB.
>=20
> In the case of vacancies by voting members, the RSAB shall operate
> as follows:
>=20
> * Activities related to implementation of policies already in force
>    shall continue as normal.
> * Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>    be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a
>    maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the
>    RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.
>=20
> ###
>=20
> On 10/18/21 3:41 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 10/18/21 2:38 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 14:10 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/18/21 1:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --On Monday, October 18, 2021 12:13 -0600 Peter Saint-Andre
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops, wrong section. Section 3.1.2 does say:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If it becomes necessary to replace =
such a delegate for
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any reason, then for the sake of co=
ntinuity the
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 appointing body should
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 name a new delegate to complete the=20
former delegate's
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 term.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, for the avoidance of doubt we could make a change
>>>>>> such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OLD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The appointing bodies shall determine the=
ir own processes
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for appointing RSAB members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NEW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The appointing bodies shall determine the=
ir own processes
>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for appointing and removing RSAB members
>>>>>
>>>>> Much better.=C2=A0 "replace such a delegate for any reason" does
>>>>> not necessarily imply the ability to remove one.=C2=A0 The new
>>>>> text is a bit odd in that regard ("serve at the pleasure as"
>>>>> language is more conventional especially with "appointing and
>>>>> removing") but I think your new text is adequate.
>>>>
>>>> We're in the realm of wordsmithing now, but we could say
>>>> something like this:
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for
>>>> appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the
>>>> RSCE
>>>> are described below). Each appointing body shall have the
>>>> power to
>>>> replace its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any
>>>> time.
>>>> If it becomes necessary to replace an RSAB member for any
>>>> reason,
>>>> then for the sake of continuity the appointing body should
>>>> appoint
>>>> a new member to complete the former member's term.
>>>
>>> That would work for me and I think is more clear.=C2=A0 But, as you
>>> said, we are into the realm of wordsmithing and I could
>>> comfortably live with your most recent prior text.
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>> I have no strong preference on "replace" vs. "remove", but I
>>>> suppose the latter is more accurate even though it sounds
>>>> somewhat harsh. I'll make that change, too.
>>>
>>> No strong preference there either.=C2=A0 But, if someone is
>>> involuntarily "replaced" mid-term, it definitely would be
>>> "remove".=C2=A0 I hope no one proposes "fire".=C2=A0 So, for your sec=
ond
>>> sentence above "power to remove" would probably be slightly
>>> better.=C2=A0 However, in the third sentence, "replace" is correct
>>> because voluntary resignations due to changes of circumstances
>>> are possible and are not removals (I'd hope that would be more
>>> likely too) and should not be confused with them.=C2=A0 "Replace"
>>> covers both situations.=C2=A0 Indeed, if someone is involuntarily
>>> removed, they then need to be replaced.
>>
>> Indeed, I don't think we need the third sentence, since it is covered =
by=20
>> this sentence:
>>
>>  =C2=A0 Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated=

>>  =C2=A0 at all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed,=

>>  =C2=A0 if necessary on a temporary basis.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 21 06:30:42 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A903A167A for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 286yuNlgh-0f for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1642D3A1678 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id h27so597374ila.5 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=qcJfu4o9OxPwbHRED9h5G1eLtedlpzwBDX6UXpPnsqk=; b=YFxgBj0X1wi/dorT5yLhPJM69w7olc7CV676PJIeqDKHFy2icveEIDveeHOdrJFuwA wmSSphMJX0+MHoiXFDV7QXE5Rf5ifAFnaznu8GhzTlXCfrPcHTv94wM/6s9+Km4SCUHf Qb7BSU3uQd9xcMtcd+dHWdwvcbjIX2JJk4W/SPhC5cWK1CblDu7vNvsONumEdpC0SiNl PsY9L7FK3NRJ7CCTZxr5FpGID5MWt99v5ux7fx56O5MlSNeqMm6722WuPvCDw24qXskQ YlNVwneKTK3+bwLLCT0P9RicWued/VWdsLlsfGIc4D/ocd1bB2Y5C2cN3AQ1FcCOKvup e27w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=qcJfu4o9OxPwbHRED9h5G1eLtedlpzwBDX6UXpPnsqk=; b=PIUmCLep5g0nKrFSqXGksihT8SDyKfjI7Uw9cdC6jJTV2ra1hk9lRWXUmTm/rtyxJG U/2ViviuNRY1FjNU/i71Z4LbxduJibsDEqdxe3qVhoo7TxnQkRQyt2T/RFSPwDUV7QdW Xx0+mO56HcsG8Mhc8uo0MQ5FbU3g+ARj5ySrsvKNgjao5uGTnmzzKQnaktWAxrOtLe2D oaAHHS0m3leKLFYK2or78Dy/yp2MkXsboiKxcPORIGJsLYv8se2B0azEDQXP9G4p6wwE 4SYyGkg63uL6flTTt7RnCg3TPaeSfk0hrHgpdR0y1cCf2TDTdEHraTYDbgidQhe1MIm/ 6ZbQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Xpl/ZR/spI6SOQnkUFyTpu1K+WoA76aawfvwuskCAxgl9kCBl lVacDg8HJaO3jxVOikHQDkkVsrcBUPgH8Q==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzx4pWQohVivqQCO/TYKrWJ/m8+fres3J7bBfOeFlZiezuLmMFrkOv7kLYdm9RuqoGLFAUsTA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:2169:: with SMTP id s9mr3672223ilv.154.1634823034201;  Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:30:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n3sm2542500iob.32.2021.10.21.06.30.33 for  (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Message-Id: <3195F39B-CA90-44A6-BA43-E98DDC72B4DA@brianrosen.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:30:32 -0400
To: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Propose to Close: Issue #82 RSAB Quorum
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 13:30:40 -0000

Peter put out the latest text, which I think is where we are.  I propose =
to close this issue.  Please comment by November 4 if you disagree.

Brian=


From nobody Thu Oct 21 07:33:43 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620F33A171C; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmaPDC_ZCmU1; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DDF73A171A; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19LEXPjE1238198 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:33:25 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634826806; bh=8XPGbT2Z2hmTqB89U62p+rlWxgZzwmAkFo6PsCIDUT0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=tmSQktp35mff12v3/fPT98p3A6dm2Spu8zQu/jwNAGtA0nLuVOknimPn/+vC9p/b2 9rCZdFLlJcp4iHL1dVYrdsZy6pycAzb+fDFDfFXM7CgwnmG/QHOxRDSiSwY2a4b5t8 wHchMILsfjKj4O8nG/ljNTDuQjUAfUo6xbZczcO4=
Message-ID: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:33:24 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------v1aHEl0fTjm2cp0OnXcws4Cm"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] next steps for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:33:41 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------v1aHEl0fTjm2cp0OnXcws4Cm
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------deHxXXZtmCRB1PH8eHaur0co";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board 
Message-ID: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch>
Subject: next steps for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model

--------------deHxXXZtmCRB1PH8eHaur0co
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------V8CoaiQ2dOdpLXyulkMzigKO"

--------------V8CoaiQ2dOdpLXyulkMzigKO
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------50jURw4cAWJrvZDpJpYMOXiB"

--------------50jURw4cAWJrvZDpJpYMOXiB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------50jURw4cAWJrvZDpJpYMOXiB
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  

    
  
  
    
Dear colleagues and IAB members,

    

    
Peter is in the process of putting the final touches on=

      draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.=C2=A0 Once he releases that draft=
, we
      intend to begin the equivalent of WGLC on the document.=C2=A0 Once =
all
      issues that are raised during that WGLC are resolved, we will
      transmit the document to the IAB, and we expect the board to then
      start a broader community review.=C2=A0 

    

    
In all likelihood, that review likely won't be ready to=

      go until after the IETF meeting.=C2=A0 Therefore,=
=C2=A0 we
      propose to let the community know that community review is coming,
      and that in advance of that, they have an opportunity to raise any
      questions they have during the IETF time slot for the the program,
      which will be Wednesday, November 10th at 14:30 UTC.

    
ok?

    

    
Brian & Eliot

  

--------------50jURw4cAWJrvZDpJpYMOXiB--

--------------V8CoaiQ2dOdpLXyulkMzigKO
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------V8CoaiQ2dOdpLXyulkMzigKO--


--------------deHxXXZtmCRB1PH8eHaur0co--

--------------v1aHEl0fTjm2cp0OnXcws4Cm
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFxejQFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPn
vAf7BUje1qygPPOlobLnW0g5D6KGeMM1lwIU0QDUCns2MwPGN0srrQ4lUGMACbuS9rm3xXP/qUtM
TGAJWPGBSpJC6PxzK/ctmUOaCTBtI+wm9i1mDFN2iCdB0U2QAWKHH1S2RWM+657w127olv3hiy4E
PRbxMLbuIov2yQX1bfKYHfUL6lqXrDztkZhWP/MFuynYz4mGZVNCP7GXy9CKLnJ6NGshlgUyJWYx
nFY/K9whqj2RDp4I8mzOWuo2Vf44bI2BnBRsZjHEhX2FMosEsTrfndMEeR6SmFs+jSQrzihLvgoG
kLZ+qSrWZ/01gon3ZVZUa5czlQsX6GcIc77s557N4g==
=Z1+j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------v1aHEl0fTjm2cp0OnXcws4Cm--


From nobody Thu Oct 21 08:17:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39AF3A1635 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=isi.edu
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 66wIYrJz-0QH for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C6783A164D for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id f4so1900309uad.4 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isi.edu; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JfNw/Hgznx2/r7TV45LkeukN5zSPV96025DdiFENih0=; b=d4zzCbNK1y7OKQhHYu6I7IE43OSjHz5OheZkvKctp6sqETYdfqQVU1anDarkjPkIh3 M4ruR5GHsOCJ1dbJFqWaddBUN2njQZEH7i9haJaBT4a7RVLaL4/DgL/G2QTWG3iOegVr yYAlLs5gedZ6t5BeZ2oYDNXEaXKoARY94orQgwnaV16da15KycKBzVMctE53BtB8QuJZ AHa/JrQjsk22MhgKKZPQDUnONVF4S5XsLkCZsNg1GJf9Q1ELG6F2Q8eyRYg/6q/hoOny fpBCrNcUnFpo4nux8XZZB1/lQtLN1dHh6N/On/hLtTKyO2yjbBH9ChW9Cluqy0CCCERb W1qw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JfNw/Hgznx2/r7TV45LkeukN5zSPV96025DdiFENih0=; b=518dXw50krfMNwz9xTdSTkdiuUHIWpz2F6gk6I8yIBXXTH7oKzzztGcuIKJT1uTRBg X7LlsDMrIMqo7ai1boSI+sZXoU6IPe4FWmUDDJBxbiKEc4bdw4cfT7LjPTXyLCpF5TDA 87/bPMIdj0ZjNq5wQB4ggCgqMeksD6n1aO4CppVjKLCeWgL1BKzVW2TZblB4roptv+Yl 5tXKtuqWBT+gbOKF2KAYhaPFKTRDNpO6nJp9F8uvFuCut/MdVN4nCL1iRITPUJEYLDwu LWOseGyQAt/IWQYqCUkTUZD15PmA1MW6yK1ZM3Py1QoF4aj7Fp983DSWc0dR4hQ8QEF2 uxTg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530FsqQ3zjycMMx8fZGZVrtz1NbWYQ9KYpYClQo1iPRuSlqzC0ht CeJX0c7Q9XEkh14rThMu4X/LwwDSmklZzuaLNWQfveDV0bM=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxma+uWkZmf9auc6alYLUdGHRv9f27Jyo2FRi9WyuLtVjWGya1NdX/SnQ01ILpu0R2+o5GVvV0WyUp3tQaMKO0=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:50ab:: with SMTP id bl43mr6683182vsb.54.1634829423284;  Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:17:03 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch>
From: Wes Hardaker 
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:16:27 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b761e05cede63e8"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] next steps for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:17:14 -0000

--0000000000000b761e05cede63e8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

>
>
>  Once all issues that are raised during that WGLC are resolved, we will
> transmit the document to the IAB, and we expect the board to then start a
> broader community review.
>

Thanks for the proposed timeline and warning.  We look forward to the
document to review!

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI

--0000000000000b761e05cede63e8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



=C2=A0Once all
      issues that are raised during that WGLC are resolved, we will
      transmit the document to the IAB, and we expect the board to then
      start a broader community review.=C2=A0
Thanks for the proposed timeline and warning.=C2=A0 We look fo=
rward to the document to review!

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI


--0000000000000b761e05cede63e8--


From nobody Thu Oct 21 08:39:46 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A253A003F; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIEVBz2wOQcN; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CB2D3A1808; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b20079be2c583bc59e2f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:79be:2c58:3bc5:9e2f]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mdaAF-00069F-Tt; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:39:31 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:39:31 +0200
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <1C9D7A31-4328-4996-86F3-80AD2F9F8E2B@kuehlewind.net>
References: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1634830777;977a9c23;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mdaAF-00069F-Tt
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] next steps for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:39:43 -0000

Thanks Eliot! I will mention this in the my IAB Chair slides during the =
plenary!


> On 21. Oct 2021, at 16:33, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> Dear colleagues and IAB members,
>=20
> Peter is in the process of putting the final touches on =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.  Once he releases that draft, we =
intend to begin the equivalent of WGLC on the document.  Once all issues =
that are raised during that WGLC are resolved, we will       transmit =
the document to the IAB, and we expect the board to then start a broader =
community review. =20
>=20
> In all likelihood, that review likely won't be ready to go until after =
the IETF meeting.  Therefore,  we propose to let the community know that =
community review is coming, and that in advance of that, they have an =
opportunity to raise any questions they have during the IETF time slot =
for the the program, which will be Wednesday, November 10th at 14:30 =
UTC.
>=20
> ok?
>=20
> Brian & Eliot
>=20
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 21 09:49:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF553A0827; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=CT90Etc8; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=DJqsuiA+
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfVewO3lpWfH; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE7B93A0931; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:48:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E39D5C01A1; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:48:33 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:48:33 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=e w1XD1MZbvvOBZh7VBRsnnoVYftVogURGlKCXC0IZ5M=; b=CT90Etc8NGqmchjE+ VpPI6FmeMqY6FynsKuOANymyStbmitt+LgESGrNVQY/zIDnWk9uDxEmTIP3cfI1R DcqlS5Z2n7dTM+fG4DT9+0b25pAfVsaGDBVCeBxD1YR3QqOnQSZnR3bM858+h3eD DXlvsI+MuwpR22Fp4tKW2maOkAcVcdu4MoHhXoNSda18QPcl4ZwIsmL+ayOTzn61 Wx2aNT8GSSPUPkkgXx9vi1KZl661cKPCEgqrqP2LLsvgkdiDqs9lSDcjd77c8pWr ei1vcaPpz8S9kxhtGKV89Vay33OHxN8gDepGqVEYPx0RcqBiKRbG/kuzLxELGYYu rjQiQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ew1XD1MZbvvOBZh7VBRsnnoVYftVogURGlKCXC0IZ 5M=; b=DJqsuiA+XEO4G+YtHB47nru/XLdbXAbvNENkuftp5ATPu80oX42cRYszJ uLtbuBg2GK9C++LTQzD2E9CHsyZVbeL42JcMUN/CjtS184sj+EUF2v6of0veJqZv 0ObZtg0XKzIgXVzLR2aIgi4WzE2h3tvFzO/8a8ktP3EvgVfzJ4hby1Ph3IYvGhoT o5wfMRJIOoYjVKDBVjeq9Y7uuzuZV8bMvmhXk9QS8Hj7INiC5SlvhylwAuelyBEt rT+JJRhQ/uHu/bBgOY8PR2QFP+c0FxvVoMZDbfJE6HQ2ZjdYC/u20Hgf4iJ/1b6j HGTcIB0c2lXFrHYeuGHcqv9S0Z55w==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddviedguddtfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedvvedtueffieevleeggeeuheeiieeuvdeftdeutdduvdei heegheekhedutdehueenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgv thgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:48:32 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <9e16af64-74c5-c254-efc3-be249303fa72@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:48:30 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board 
References: <7169614f-8289-eaa3-6cf8-e34af6b40b16@lear.ch> <1C9D7A31-4328-4996-86F3-80AD2F9F8E2B@kuehlewind.net>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <1C9D7A31-4328-4996-86F3-80AD2F9F8E2B@kuehlewind.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] next steps for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:48:53 -0000

To nudge things along, I've just posted -05:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05

Peter

On 10/21/21 9:39 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Thanks Eliot! I will mention this in the my IAB Chair slides during the plenary!
> 
> 
>> On 21. Oct 2021, at 16:33, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>
>> Dear colleagues and IAB members,
>>
>> Peter is in the process of putting the final touches on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-04.  Once he releases that draft, we intend to begin the equivalent of WGLC on the document.  Once all issues that are raised during that WGLC are resolved, we will       transmit the document to the IAB, and we expect the board to then start a broader community review.
>>
>> In all likelihood, that review likely won't be ready to go until after the IETF meeting.  Therefore,  we propose to let the community know that community review is coming, and that in advance of that, they have an opportunity to raise any questions they have during the IETF time slot for the the program, which will be Wednesday, November 10th at 14:30 UTC.
>>
>> ok?
>>
>> Brian & Eliot
>>
>> 
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 21 10:28:53 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0968F3A08CD for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DtQGczB0wHzD for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C4A93A0857 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:28:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19LHSbYP1322910 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:28:38 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634837318; bh=yC0ycpVtzGSsLwH9rXyI1tXvjQsrMLj6Jmd7HQek41Y=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=TX4xo1HojWZEClMi/jSQ+bgPIBCR5XKRfQZzWoD3BzPeF+0QKUrRTcC/wg+p0T8iu uq6qiMsy1wWAFyCwkXvrHlDr4hQkCIqJIATFYa4KObBnHzqC/TwKsZfI0Qq/UoOmfz NR3CCIHvwK2VBSQ+t+N16YgXWmShumf5tsS3gdoE=
Message-ID: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:28:37 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------cXyjIHfffcGdfjcnaUAHhSnQ"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] proposed note to the broader community
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:28:52 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------cXyjIHfffcGdfjcnaUAHhSnQ
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------U08tuGkDGATfRNGDhQCy52YU";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
Subject: proposed note to the broader community

--------------U08tuGkDGATfRNGDhQCy52YU
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------rWYosmiKr7q03GqhIkeALnR8"

--------------rWYosmiKr7q03GqhIkeALnR8
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------It6XZDlZ00WAVndGElOBSis3"

--------------It6XZDlZ00WAVndGElOBSis3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------It6XZDlZ00WAVndGElOBSis3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  

    
  
  
    
 

    

      
Hi everyone,

      
As mentioned, we plan to invite the community to engage
        directly with us at the IETF meeting.=C2=A0 We chairs thought we'=
d do
        so with a note to a few places, like the IETF list, wgchairs,
        and elsewhere with a bit of an explanation.=C2=A0 Here's the note=

        below.=C2=A0 We'd like to send it next week on your behalf.=C2=A0=

        Edits/concerns? 

      
Brian and Eliot

      
---

      

      
DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT

      

      
Dear colleagues,

      
In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial
        Future Development Program, a program opened to the entire
        community, with an eye toward reviewing the RFC Editor
        model.[1]=C2=A0 We are now coming to the conclusion of our work, =
and
        the IAB will soon formally solicit community input. 

      

      
The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model
        and a small change to the charter of the IAB.=C2=A0 You can find =
this
        evolution in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05.[2]=C2=A0 This draf=
t
        brings together many different points of view.

      

      
Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to
        know:

      
    
        
  1. The community is proposed to take on the role of seeing to
          the evolution of the series, in the form of an open working
          group. The streams in the form of an RFC Series Approval Board
          (RSAB) will review proposals that receive rough consensus.
    
        
    2. 
        
  2. The RFC Editor role is evolving to that of a consulting
          editor (RFC Series Consulting Editor or RSCE).=C2=A0 In this mo=
del,
          an expert will provide guidance to the community, the streams,
          and to the RPC to evolve the series.
    3. 
        
  3. The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC series.=C2=A0=

          The community and the streams will do that.=C2=A0 The IAB will
          continue to be in the appeal path if there are disputes.
    4. 
      

      
There are a lot of things that won't change.=C2=A0 The RPC would=

        continue to handle day-to-day functions of the RFC Editor
        function, and authors should not see any change in terms of how
        RFCs are published.=C2=A0 They continue to be managed through the=

        LLC.=C2=A0 We will continue to benefit from the expertise of a
        professional expert, now the RSCE.

      
Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the
        draft.

      

      
This is what will soon be put forth for your comments.=C2=A0 In =
the
        meantime, even though the formal comment period is not yet open,
        we invite you to review the model now and bring whatever
        questions you might have to the program when we meet on
        Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the IETF meeting.=C2=A0=
 Of
        course you can also join the mailing list [3] and contribute
        your questions and comments there.

      
On behalf of the program,

      
Brian and Eliot

      

      [1]
      https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-=
development-program/

      [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-mode=
l-05

      [3] https:=
//www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

      

    

  

--------------It6XZDlZ00WAVndGElOBSis3--

--------------rWYosmiKr7q03GqhIkeALnR8
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------rWYosmiKr7q03GqhIkeALnR8--


--------------U08tuGkDGATfRNGDhQCy52YU--

--------------cXyjIHfffcGdfjcnaUAHhSnQ
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFxo0UFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPu
3wgAmrHab4wEFmyzy7iQv31A9fF6Dg/lU9IHbmuLILRluKczpTNjIRfqsPdzJy30cL2y3I96xoxM
FZzZVaf4EEKgQxuhsYDaWyqEpOKh/3EbLDcCCbcj1GyOoK/JFRswr5s9/hy1DRHt6Fx0htoTLVJZ
ex5Bq5bViRfRjpJjp8brJWJRvFJFEpN+Cne4PM2bAhS9ygxsNQ8NqZ0vlyLOct0vsywxTlADHOZz
BMdeehZaZgP6L3EAVv4cCwQMBV6OYLBG2rji/stYkdPpw2zFkQPR5agPeL0cjE4sPcjb0NSbqj8b
9/Z3VyWzogamxmx4vlyah1hjtqRqSTmbwI9hZob2SA==
=LAI/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------cXyjIHfffcGdfjcnaUAHhSnQ--


From nobody Thu Oct 21 14:52:17 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE0C3A0CF5 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id scgd7NdDkEHI for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FF533A0CF6 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A804127A52 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hC4Pu8Avomo for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A66004127A48 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
Message-Id: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:52:06 +1300
To: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Outline process for hiring the new RSCE
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:52:16 -0000

This is my proposed outline process for hiring the new RSCE:

1.  Appoint a search firm.  I plan to use a general purpose =
international search firm that I have used before a number of times =
rather than an academic/publishing specialist firm.  I don=E2=80=99t =
intend to involve anyone else in this choice.

2.  Assemble a recruitment committee.  I propose to include the =
following people/roles along with me:

	- Peter Saint-Andre as both the author of the important I-D and =
the chair of RSOC
	- John Levine as the current holder of a similar post (he has =
already stated he will not apply for this role)
	- A representative of the RPC
	- One or to community members chosen by me from those who have =
been active on this list and understand the new model in depth

Before commenting on that, please read step 3 below.

=3D=3D the following steps only take place once the WGLC process is =
complete and the chairs are comfortable that no substantive changes will =
be made before publication of the new model =3D=3D

3.  With the assistance of the committee, provide the search firm with a =
list of people to speak to as part of their research into the role.  =
This will ideally be in the range of 10-20 people, each of whom will be =
offered a 1-1 discussion with the search firm.

4.  Have the search firm provide a timetable and share that with the =
community for transparency.  =20

5.  Execute.


All comments most welcome.

Jay

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Thu Oct 21 14:54:56 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8453A0D79 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6XTTxkd9qrBz for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E1BB3A0D93 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id t21so1355854plr.6 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LNHwzlOPPchlt+ICBtgAuJdYhKIaX98jZvLi0erXVvo=; b=A0BxPX05nD1bDqjM+OMml0rQ1n6djKjpom1OGC7U1bV6CKHpGG7SeQZ3encLwCmzvN FOocRj/Vt+2rQ5ouyBJxwBRkxtDP5h4D8W7L7jrE85LxgDIBnSJv7cmDd2WPx8eAo3yy MM5sF/lOQwGbB+j8yOHWHueBdbLrGgFXgZeikFnmARxDeiZIs8DvdNip3Mrp/f7p96Qt RZazOWmvPDXiFRyOEzHlezEj064YytxAPHm1x3Hohs/v9wuFw5l0tUtDUiVjIhBJQp04 fNkBxDe8TDt+yCLEIBrODKDf9d42xH7OTfzava21RfEr+i3LCHNdW9sZSO6kJGY+fnZ+ jTrw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LNHwzlOPPchlt+ICBtgAuJdYhKIaX98jZvLi0erXVvo=; b=3t6jt47G0SWhGhE6liOKGxR4jPMSh9jtJOCAq3fYEzvr+PFUiPCo845YJ8BypYjbdk L4GeKUpnaCKuIWrPo28g/WMOi6Mq6Mf5p1iyL8KeqYmbYtq9hxoJ4nfFYRbdVXbkZJg2 2whMAYlXrUmhIaj2s7wgY49mjJhvDESb5os1+Xer0C+JrucUlqQ5u+/z9kXvrsPNiDHj YLOqdweJeo9LyxxAdDJmc0Y66LWO5/GjLTcpqsWdjfsFAJ4zAnAdgTVU2ecADbZ5FKhm fV2Zw7UIN7n3ka0fCGewEoWucrO9wc2S+u/ydrr54s4JiUIYVMKIsxSXDZywldQFUY/V tKnQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iP/K4oXHKDC65JjydOA9JUR5kQ40KSHx3H2Crbx1BUe2KLQmA aJ02jsDlBUt1f+ix1sE/YDS5qYzGjkg4Lw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQFawOWYDotMzJbRtf16+GEDR1SJcfDifVBn+ciyJIphY2FxZxnTf3jnpL59uNXI/EZtgKew==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2391:: with SMTP id mr17mr9676533pjb.61.1634853286009;  Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w11sm6353914pge.48.2021.10.21.14.54.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:54:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <497202a4-34c8-b719-2e1d-4580f96a5a79@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:54:40 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] proposed note to the broader community
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:54:55 -0000

Hi,

Comments interspersed:

On 22-Oct-21 06:28, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>=20
> As mentioned, we plan to invite the community to engage directly with u=
s at the IETF meeting.=C2=A0 We chairs thought we'd do so with a note to =
a few places, like the IETF list, wgchairs, and elsewhere with a bit of a=
n explanation.=C2=A0 Here's the note below.=C2=A0 We'd like to send it ne=
xt week on your behalf.=C2=A0 Edits/concerns?


istm that "elsewhere" needs to include gendispatch, rfc-interest, and irt=
f-discuss.

> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> ---
>=20
> DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT
>=20
> Dear colleagues,
>=20
> In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial Future Dev=
elopment Program, a program opened to the entire community, with an eye t=
oward reviewing the RFC Editor model.[1]=C2=A0 We are now coming to the c=
onclusion of our work, and the IAB will soon formally solicit community i=
nput.

Point here to the list archive?


> The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model and a sm=
all change to the charter of the IAB.=C2=A0 You can find this evolution i=
n draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05.[2]=C2=A0 This draft brings together m=
any different points of view.
>=20
> Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to know:
>=20
>  1. The community is proposed to take on the role of seeing to the evol=
ution of the series, in the form of an open working group. The streams in=20
the form of an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) will review proposals tha=
t receive rough consensus.


Those sentences are both very hard to parse. Suggestion:

1. We propose that the community oversees the evolution of the series, by=20
means of an open working group. Proposed changes that reach rough consens=
us will be reviewed by an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) representing t=
he various RFC streams.


>  2. The RFC Editor role is evolving to that of a consulting editor (RFC=20
Series Consulting Editor or RSCE).=C2=A0 In this model, an expert will pr=
ovide guidance to the community, the streams, and to the RPC to evolve th=
e series.


"is evolving" is a euphemism. It's changing. Don't be mealy mouthed.

Otherwise, all good.

Thanks
   Brian C

>  3. The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC series.=C2=A0 The =
community and the streams will do that.=C2=A0 The IAB will continue to be=20
in the appeal path if there are disputes.
>=20
> There are a lot of things that won't change.=C2=A0 The RPC would contin=
ue to handle day-to-day functions of the RFC Editor function, and authors=20
should not see any change in terms of how RFCs are published.=C2=A0 They =
continue to be managed through the LLC.=C2=A0 We will continue to benefit=20
from the expertise of a professional expert, now the RSCE.
>=20
> Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the draft.
>=20
> This is what will soon be put forth for your comments.=C2=A0 In the mea=
ntime, even though the formal comment period is not yet open, we invite y=
ou to review the model now and bring whatever questions you might have to=20
the program when we meet on Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the=20
IETF meeting.=C2=A0 Of course you can also join the mailing list [3] and =
contribute your questions and comments there.
>=20
> On behalf of the program,
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> [1] https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-developme=
nt-program/
> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model=
-05
> [3] https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 21 14:59:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB1E3A0DBB for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=FyNph81/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=WRs/yAxr
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k98GnnvGgTvp for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F7EA3A0DB5 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8168C32007F9; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:59:42 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:59:42 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=g 4A7BeMj2mTXmNVI8p/WCRkwIQqWKmg8isuqFraFHVQ=; b=FyNph81/G0Uno6Jwf EFbX7k05Kji1RfnsPhryeSco44yEVahOvel9gqc9Ftu78B6n2DnXqofZwP8ljnKE H0+IAUZ/jv7MJYiLPMJ25Db6Z4itov7JCvVjyDszxZI1xhSRwxAvRcD7inUH8gxF 62/uMzs1jt3mq/qkLIgeCS9xICkLWiBPX0Q/IVXN+xUendYMboB6XIZ3L8r94hoO U9OTwFBYt+ie8NoZartkwk1QAkW9sNBvl8HK7cxIxevQDn90pwTNySMBdSgCZD/Y VMWNB4vrUS9R0+SfIpd1I3Cvhc6zeVyzFEROo5baEk1v6JnqDob7PgrOswBNal1C 3oRxQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=g4A7BeMj2mTXmNVI8p/WCRkwIQqWKmg8isuqFraFH VQ=; b=WRs/yAxrFH7r+1Pxk8PhLPk/tgUJ8LchPGPNH7m9+pcv9ig3A/jBdBpeS T+RLD9aD4DgiCFrUA2duxOlsrU6wi8ZW7TsewyOGnwkTtt25hnxqlHeOpqCq8dDK Fxo+UXbj+FArDKX3rQioTyPo1Te6rH2nV3I6R/WtohtEGFWnmihf/hPIFTlQ86yL v2eOFumI6jSrFBVzECxJ1M5MusbqGq2qPglVrI+iwHXTpXu5tc6jNIhNL0bZSkws k41xL25KwD5DDIZIZPp3N0GwT49Uq8WQTVo+WUPT5P/rXYOXyN/uQS04jZ/CBR5r YZKJnL+8vzUW8G6CRzBMBFbY8B6RA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvjedgtddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeduhfdtudegfedtfeekveevgefhveevffetjeefkeehteeglefhvdfhffdvfefh gfenucffohhmrghinhepihgrsgdrohhrghdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvth enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhho thesmhhnohhtrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:59:40 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 08:59:38 +1100
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <2AA7AD4E-E962-45E9-A6BD-55A63EE43271@mnot.net>
References: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] proposed note to the broader community
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:59:49 -0000

I think this is worthy of posting to IETF-Announce -- perhaps the IAB =
can arrange it?

> On 22 Oct 2021, at 4:28 am, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hi everyone,
>=20
> As mentioned, we plan to invite the community to engage directly with =
us at the IETF meeting.  We chairs thought we'd do so with a note to a =
few places, like the IETF list, wgchairs, and elsewhere with a bit of an =
explanation.  Here's the note below.  We'd like to send it next week on =
your behalf.  Edits/concerns?
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> ---
>=20
> DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT
>=20
> Dear colleagues,
>=20
> In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial Future =
Development Program, a program opened to the entire community, with an =
eye toward reviewing the RFC Editor model.[1]  We are now coming to the =
conclusion of our work, and the IAB will soon formally solicit community =
input.=20
>=20
> The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model and a =
small change to the charter of the IAB.  You can find this evolution in =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05.[2]  This draft brings together many =
different points of view.
>=20
> Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to know:
>=20
> 	=E2=80=A2 The community is proposed to take on the role of =
seeing to the evolution of the series, in the form of an open working =
group. The streams in the form of an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) =
will review proposals that receive rough consensus.
> 	=E2=80=A2 The RFC Editor role is evolving to that of a =
consulting editor (RFC Series Consulting Editor or RSCE).  In this =
model, an expert will provide guidance to the community, the streams, =
and to the RPC to evolve the series.
> 	=E2=80=A2 The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC =
series.  The community and the streams will do that.  The IAB will =
continue to be in the appeal path if there are disputes.
> There are a lot of things that won't change.  The RPC would continue =
to handle day-to-day functions of the RFC Editor function, and authors =
should not see any change in terms of how RFCs are published.  They =
continue to be managed through the LLC.  We will continue to benefit =
from the expertise of a professional expert, now the RSCE.
>=20
> Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the draft.
>=20
> This is what will soon be put forth for your comments.  In the =
meantime, even though the formal comment period is not yet open, we =
invite you to review the model now and bring whatever         questions =
you might have to the program when we meet on Wednesday, November 10th, =
at 14.30 GMT at the IETF meeting.  Of course you can also join the =
mailing list [3] and contribute your questions and comments there.
>=20
> On behalf of the program,
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> [1] =
https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-prog=
ram/
> [2] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05
> [3] https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Thu Oct 21 22:56:09 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8193A0858 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 22:56:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3hPxPRAYr4ZE for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 22:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CE2E3A084F for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 22:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9806:8a55:4424:7375] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9806:8a55:4424:7375]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19M5tt8g1685792 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 07:55:55 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634882156; bh=/oeX5GrjiIicGTxBU3hiNfpad3YnozB3OwT8Fa39HYQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=TABhr/H19SswqsUoJjwRKHruOaGH5S2A9tA/VcpVyEizCtKHWL+/KBkdFrkIUTsBV 47LZTJ0npaOXK7JYYVEvmB3ka5Vz2TceG0ov1lP7OUQbgUobWF2B8xrYnOrC3wN0zn EAbJfvQliCKoV2b1Y5YuowrXOYiOZIRD8uw15ivM=
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 07:55:53 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Mirja Kuehlewind 
References: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch> <2AA7AD4E-E962-45E9-A6BD-55A63EE43271@mnot.net>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <2AA7AD4E-E962-45E9-A6BD-55A63EE43271@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------4wgLqb2lQeohkJovc6CAydeX"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] proposed note to the broader community
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 05:56:08 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------4wgLqb2lQeohkJovc6CAydeX
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5syRXlygOPFJkD68NNXi65Pn";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Mirja Kuehlewind 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] proposed note to the broader community
References: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
 <2AA7AD4E-E962-45E9-A6BD-55A63EE43271@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <2AA7AD4E-E962-45E9-A6BD-55A63EE43271@mnot.net>

--------------5syRXlygOPFJkD68NNXi65Pn
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------5syRXlygOPFJkD68NNXi65Pn--

--------------4wgLqb2lQeohkJovc6CAydeX
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFyUmkFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPa
LAgAuBEvnQDSkYwWDJyy5gsKc0VEVJZ/C59KiZRHNyIpfI05MuVFSn0NKFM82xTew3vg74l9ibng
BuWW+nqd6xncz4bJ0DXRXyzAni5kmtktrnsYg+py7e8Xeoz+KgxSkOqOwtYoikuBvsstIFjv0c5t
spo+H4JAs+vAPVZuvN4YBVVLIRunm/8gEBGkZJzwworZlZCZk93wtMfAOIuwOS2TToAXDbV59P0S
rjflBlsZ625AkxURa9bCDaFiSKej/kNMqKuhoqNUWtVzSbWRW2XWmGxGUWQ+q8EqS4rBzUH8VZ+Z
i/cFXvJ786PZnqlmFClrtrz9AEeum57VM0whYoPWMg==
=9bAQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------4wgLqb2lQeohkJovc6CAydeX--


From nobody Fri Oct 22 00:48:13 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744023A08AC for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.891
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 72CQDO6xqftG for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4E563A0898 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:48:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19M7lwlA1740199 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:47:58 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634888878; bh=DBe14Cem20NWkhMqPc4k0nwLif9TIwgy3uWCxChihJ4=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=GCBeJae0qwpAAb6eZ8qVdTC+ODgm6tzm18XOWpRtqCc+1UvhhlEMGuZy7u8Tek1KF HiEqFpHlo8XTOepi5Aze03g+E4qyuPL1fwG4Dx9GHp1/Gj5R358YbddKERBsCTbWT4 ZWIGHrqNgJix00qNVQgQ3eXOAPaqMC5Z7Uq/JXCQ=
Message-ID: <45e256ec-2c39-c99e-8a80-9ed19b078628@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:47:54 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Brian E Carpenter , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch> <497202a4-34c8-b719-2e1d-4580f96a5a79@gmail.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <497202a4-34c8-b719-2e1d-4580f96a5a79@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------psNLYZfxoB0Dz1dAt9r0ZHNK"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] proposed note to the broader community
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 07:48:09 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------psNLYZfxoB0Dz1dAt9r0ZHNK
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------o9vnR072qXgkx4g0WvsLtAEf";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Brian E Carpenter ,
 "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <45e256ec-2c39-c99e-8a80-9ed19b078628@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: proposed note to the broader community
References: <27f8cdf5-03fc-0b51-5946-fd8e94f8d514@lear.ch>
 <497202a4-34c8-b719-2e1d-4580f96a5a79@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <497202a4-34c8-b719-2e1d-4580f96a5a79@gmail.com>

--------------o9vnR072qXgkx4g0WvsLtAEf
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------pOI00KZfiytpnGZe3JroZtrM"

--------------pOI00KZfiytpnGZe3JroZtrM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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==
--------------pOI00KZfiytpnGZe3JroZtrM
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------pOI00KZfiytpnGZe3JroZtrM--


--------------o9vnR072qXgkx4g0WvsLtAEf--

--------------psNLYZfxoB0Dz1dAt9r0ZHNK
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFybKoFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMi
cQf+K4wiR1yhO9961aAuxQgig0QxoWyXyTL3XW2nHjQO8ycUb6UNmDCwRG+wArEmyl+IT4aREWIO
x2m3mi7Le4e5vB6AZM5H1MjIXAJnEyKAuuAmA2tJqA5qvUavlWt/2ON5jBLUkuqYCdmghEVfvxw2
6ivIYraZZzabfUCi1lYt6TpJz6NYubGGjvC2ZCUtO3YAowS5k6I0+RZS6ychJs8pokj491aZTR6j
U0ChCh2qX0ib9ZBA9Zhd1YeI4GxULnfI6IkPz1O8wH2w4uF6rGpiDzFd1js6c8lrnWvtS8ssDw1d
UEXsLHdlDtazcJqOtGGQ3VPUMO/19+MXDO06Dmj2nw==
=ueUz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------psNLYZfxoB0Dz1dAt9r0ZHNK--


From nobody Fri Oct 22 01:13:49 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8213A0900; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.09
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EMEsc2GjS0WQ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:13:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7926B3A08EC; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19M8DZn91752571 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:13:35 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634890416; bh=45tJ3MqfzF8wim8mTweg19cG1p+FRh6Ppin55d1U6D8=; h=Date:To:Cc:From:Subject:From; b=AuH1KsrbqehiDGfCKT6akGrzS96ijA6VDObVtJinF1pR5nUyy4r5HXHBHtGPEQFmX dnfbCf/dgR/Oc43irlaZ5sH+HhbLl8cqs+3IZA8nQ0B8dy3YfSZnf/yrOnGtglC3gT lZGFLCJrAgnUDH9ZNe3kViJB9SbbPFCLCV/xV+/k=
Message-ID: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:13:34 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------JVRsNMOx0M4xYjwMXxYvvusy"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 08:13:46 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------JVRsNMOx0M4xYjwMXxYvvusy
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------JIspOuHDKkHj1kW3Ba02Uv2i";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
Message-ID: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Subject: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021

--------------JIspOuHDKkHj1kW3Ba02Uv2i
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BVvj7t8J9JQb1NjGvat0ncRR"

--------------BVvj7t8J9JQb1NjGvat0ncRR
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

RGVhciBDb2xsZWFndWVzLA0KDQpUaGlzIGJlZ2lucyB0aGUgdHdvIHdlZWsgbGFzdCBjYWxs
IG9uIA0KZHJhZnQtaWFiLXJmY2VkZnAtcmZjZWQtbW9kZWwtMDUuWzFdwqAgVGhpcyBjYWxs
IHdpbGwgcnVuIHRocm91Z2ggRnJpZGF5LCANCjUgTm92IDIwMjEuwqAgUGxlYXNlIHNlbmQg
eW91ciBjb21tZW50cyB0byB0aGlzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdC7CoCBXZSB3aWxsIA0KYWRkcmVz
cyBhbnkgaXNzdWVzIHRoYXQgYXJlIHJhaXNlZCBkdXJpbmcgb3VyIElFVEYgdGltZSBzbG90
IChhbmQgb2YgDQpjb3Vyc2Ugb24gbGlzdCkuDQoNCkJyaWFuIGFuZCBFbGlvdA0KDQpbMV0g
aHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1pYWItcmZjZWZk
cC1yZmNlZC1tb2RlbA0KDQo=
--------------BVvj7t8J9JQb1NjGvat0ncRR
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------BVvj7t8J9JQb1NjGvat0ncRR--


--------------JIspOuHDKkHj1kW3Ba02Uv2i--

--------------JVRsNMOx0M4xYjwMXxYvvusy
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFycq4FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejN5
kwgAkg7Fl3ccqxin3ifrMpfDqEZL6yGlM7L6ewmzeM9iiG418cPswbh1EXaQ6OJP1crr0qByxpFw
SNDaDl4Ooq0f1licqnm6GhnUQlQ6J5H6nLo1tJCFMW1tKfpOLYXoPrvg0OxxL7YaFevX6P8WyHXM
YWYbGhrcSum934S1oBs2w9FwCxmoyFhdFERcgvEuMUW7Px6Bpy0vzCp1iqA0lLYhBaqxlVpbFTcV
lb77ZGD7+N6EpkbUrIkwl5rHJ6lugPempLkbBTFBysfz/LEycPdor06cKnLDOL0P1rGf6qtzzoIS
vl6flBIbUX0XNk6VT/u/FSwau4ZSmoVovoh+eIKG1Q==
=FDbJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------JVRsNMOx0M4xYjwMXxYvvusy--


From nobody Fri Oct 22 02:03:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AF93A0A1F; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:03:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.091
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hV0A_vyr3Ijt; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:03:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E499F3A0A1E; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19M93HFD1776632 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 11:03:17 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1634893398; bh=AMsjKkFDobJBdf1QJwvWExvi917MDDDwB87qM4XHMXQ=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=lB7CtIqyizRaLXoVA30a7TdY3HrNStPb5TgNxQFmf28H1XZorZAR9FLxhuoUu+Ce7 Wp/zEE50y0M98LShhOjoZ2z8w7yB7LnyhA8rkcj2/C52XcN9mTqYAzefU9ArGFOKmA U9qBbH7Ug2JgPAxWvH+YKIOWXokknDhJsCbqBwdM=
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 11:03:16 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------TH737V9khleozzD2OPLew4TE"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Outline process for hiring the new RSCE
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:03:27 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------TH737V9khleozzD2OPLew4TE
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AvrlTervLk6EXPCvbsRhQ1zd";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Outline process for hiring the new RSCE
References: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>

--------------AvrlTervLk6EXPCvbsRhQ1zd
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------GtMQ0T60Z2mDMMmTY56CeMaz"

--------------GtMQ0T60Z2mDMMmTY56CeMaz
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------GtMQ0T60Z2mDMMmTY56CeMaz
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------GtMQ0T60Z2mDMMmTY56CeMaz--


--------------AvrlTervLk6EXPCvbsRhQ1zd--

--------------TH737V9khleozzD2OPLew4TE
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFyflQFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNj
0Af/YuqfSc0JFUJUepSBNisRjT7y3hhI4pHHyNrWSHQpXtqgZgzrouhhl23x8JMa+25RijkuXlfV
mmAPg50WZCyCE8KMCNUZKpmx9wiWROYXl7jozQpUZWGMOxUT7ZeFLBbQ8fqvZedMLzeuyc/wgIIU
WKnh2c2w1Br6o/sGGpH3jAm3sdzY6p/NUsMTWDocjhtIQm0PppDbVZo0p1H25b4MCEFDlXnM5i2y
Ujm9gQdgVKeFR0B/1d2WDhBbqazU3CZTlhegfCUTs/Y9eaceao2BhJCtD8DuPp42Q4yZD+llGw5A
Us0GGZyhzDeGl2RQ8bYze5dRzOl3tzMiipgprt9ekw==
=thDE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------TH737V9khleozzD2OPLew4TE--


From nobody Fri Oct 22 09:49:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070583A1139 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:49:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Em-R7hGHN0S3 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7613C3A114C for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id l7so4942262iln.8 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google;  h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c+YREpXjUp2tNEbVZTh8bckwYZn4F2d9PRSJAsmFNZI=; b=K47ylh9V25dhBohIW89GnLGvHJbVT94xuNdVQcygFxnoUmsQ7sh+vdWAC+knwXPBdP aVFH6HIqVH/EoT9bDqi2UaPfaCAHnOOz23RB+5I+D2THhdRJG+RKtfhu0r/DGKKk4G72 NImIuO/+wcUXB+Mp+Sv69ixgk+cIN7QeHhwxs=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=c+YREpXjUp2tNEbVZTh8bckwYZn4F2d9PRSJAsmFNZI=; b=NWQlZR7EB3RtnJlEz4+oW9o5gWoYFo8Xzc6tUoknFaUuYdqAD5ncFgeERktyv5V9hD 6yDy77matRZ2UzGTs1QRgdimKImREZezRMofioV235CincXFk15xwS8HNVG/YIw+MqbG BEESBkkd9/3r7s0L+G1sxaXmUsJjEMzzDu2e6bYEz896mnlEpwOfavULInUi6E8lJjn7 sVaXMJzLA0tKT7aadKKSopzBdzudB4Qzi3KBQ/7iIceGMIqeLdWwWQSs9M13DE3aD7Mr iZcnkQe6Hw2xsDLK+5XfS/7oyze+J0VXu3mcvHCeiQz/7XLwKjxFw2ibei54aG/fobP4 bwsA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531oXC6+SUOkZoZssasYARADvGUB0h7esBBRpmpOLUcThXZx6cOF dDThFsrPVkY6Bh4a1ytYuZMhqw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywub90VysKKvYx8j/OflDkZdbeiLzeB36y3kOWCF7U4063CrXnClmvrT+juXZdpvOl7dExIA==
X-Received: by 2002:a92:cd89:: with SMTP id r9mr700432ilb.261.1634921351410; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l22sm4075805ion.53.2021.10.22.09.49.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:49:09 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: <462348CE-E701-4147-996E-ADD1FFC69E18@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Outline process for hiring the new RSCE
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 16:49:17 -0000

On 10/21/21 3:52 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
> This is my proposed outline process for hiring the new RSCE:
> 
> 1.  Appoint a search firm.  I plan to use a general purpose international search firm that I have used before a number of times rather than an academic/publishing specialist firm.  I don’t intend to involve anyone else in this choice.
> 
> 2.  Assemble a recruitment committee.  I propose to include the following people/roles along with me:
> 
> 	- Peter Saint-Andre as both the author of the important I-D and the chair of RSOC

Clarification: I'm just the editor on behalf of the program. :-)

Peter


From nobody Sat Oct 23 14:08:24 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF843A0E45 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 14:08:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kbdPRvaOOUF for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 14:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CC683A0E3A for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 14:08:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:a195:cfd:2c6c:e36b] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:a195:cfd:2c6c:e36b]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19NL83pR2829034 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 23 Oct 2021 23:08:03 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635023284; bh=1zVah67WBBfE3ZyHzkWNU4MbEg2zTJzS5J9vn7BOMxE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:From; b=gk10vdQO8sHH3ixzAsHDXjt+HbwZI9p07S4G6zplSbWqRKLKPdlPOGzY2lIIk+1JN kRfPzJuF8IpXtOpkZe37UuOsT7j4BMtX6Sjf+ojLFHNB3uebr0wv5wdRQrAFiY3uw8 1taqKImXmQD1EuMmL7yyZzxSigVFKHOddB6C+sNQ=
Message-ID: 
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 23:08:02 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------V0B80Rd0U000gh7zo7e5mM4U"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] LC comments - editorial
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 21:08:21 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------V0B80Rd0U000gh7zo7e5mM4U
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------QHLtlQkUHL78w621Um5Am0f2";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: 
Subject: LC comments - editorial

--------------QHLtlQkUHL78w621Um5Am0f2
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------7FtXug0oIGBQ5z0U0hv8z5TZ"

--------------7FtXug0oIGBQ5z0U0hv8z5TZ
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------7FtXug0oIGBQ5z0U0hv8z5TZ
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  

    
  
  
    
HI Peter,

    
I think the document reads very well.=C2=A0 Almost all of these ar=
e
      nits.=C2=A0 There is one issue below that I think may be mroe than =
a
      nit.=C2=A0 However, nothing I'm writing below should have changed t=
he
      intent of the group.

    
In section 1, you capitalize The RFC Editor Model and then later
      refer to the Model.=C2=A0 As we're not using capitalization to call=
 out
      specific definitions, I would use "model" in the latter case.=C2=A0=

      Lower case would be more consistent with later references (cf the
      last sentence in Section 2)..

    
Section 2:

    
Wide range of "persons" -> "people".

    
See https://www.grammarly.com/blog/perso=
ns-people-peoples/.

    
Same in 4th paragraph of Section 3.1.1.

    

    
Below:

    

      

        
This model is designed to ensure public pr=
ocesses and definition
   documents,

      

      This phrase doesn't parse for me.=C2=A0 What are=C2=A0 "definition
      documents"?=C2=A0 do you mean just "documents"?

    
Section 3.2.2

    
> 2. If following procedures for rough consensus the chairs
      determine

    
I think this should be 

    

    
> 2. If in following procedures for rough consensus
      the chairs determine

    


    

    
Below 3:

    
> (not be left until the RSAB review period)

    
Remove the parens and preface the word and.

    
(Generally I hate parens.)

    
Section 4.1:

    
>The RPC shall report regularly

    
should be

    
> The RPC shall provide reports regularly

    
Section 4.4:

    
> The following points are intended to provide more particular
      guidance.

    
How about:

    
> In particular:

    
Section 5.1:

    
We oughtn't leave a reference to an IAB Github site there, as it
      is:

    
(https://github.com/in=
tarchboard/
   program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-r=
ole.md)



    
Either incorporate the text, or it should be posted into LLC
      controlled space.=C2=A0 Personally I don't think that text is neede=
d at
      all, because it's well covered by the bullets above.

    
That's it.=C2=A0 Thanks!

    
Eliot

    

    


    

  

--------------7FtXug0oIGBQ5z0U0hv8z5TZ--


--------------QHLtlQkUHL78w621Um5Am0f2--

--------------V0B80Rd0U000gh7zo7e5mM4U
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF0ebIFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMo
eQgA04Oyy+b5cgKOA7vFeJ0h+P+xuz7tkIOfjV3cB7NonDLQeOZNo5YW5OCG2dMaR0Ek9y6eUWkn
ugocBfq8Xc7lZV4LfiBMbPEdP36/bi+sL95czJ40Qozi3RrpR80j9+SPx6wwx4nxFnEqhUkkhyPv
oYbsZVbGcBioJ3/Jrem2ad62f5G9qv+MFGFI5/WBm3FnaHjzpDB3BvBOA2Z/s21aTgscoDQYOBGD
Ap9asP6DHur14MW8H5ozQE5NLLNKltui2Go0cgqAH5HvrgVKEV8Hw+jb0wZJfWdWcIcdUoKz8UZR
eCLs6R/lkKrW6afvATWlNzFPtcppGcv7nYVfGdvY4Q==
=A2BC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------V0B80Rd0U000gh7zo7e5mM4U--


From nobody Sun Oct 24 21:44:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FFE3A0805 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mlFpvU5KtCiG for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 425853A07F7 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id f4so4323835plt.3 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DyF3U6QP8z/SWwYCp2nlL6DFMefGwN/69usYFXdTtII=; b=IWlSMDo/hb15F5uGb26bd4Yu3JgCQdHkjEXzCO5cOWIERtoRHKCS82cPwiL9gfsiyD 07OhAQ9WR6rTn8hB2jcUms/2sKGtieF42Mj+aPnUWeI/NistkheXCSUz5x3q5O31QJzx jfRP5RhT8T08wi1P4Trr7k93W+rkbbuNonghcXjjSJ1ltohLM7RcZ3AS/o5nGep5lMWH fo3r1H1Ql6eaKfBre+bWecZJX5l1ckCtWxvCfYzDWIH7n3TcjQzXoBWPXrKY1VRCjSua /Srrynv2YdO4fNWFKqV+5wQ4QW7Ya4WNkBTL2Fy/omHEUCtYxW+u+M05HMKwQqZ49y4U i1eg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DyF3U6QP8z/SWwYCp2nlL6DFMefGwN/69usYFXdTtII=; b=N9orWiugW5TqP7ETaA/ZJuk+CdfiG0ASjDnwXnVFGquW7C79A/zeXMrlJwUif0HTvG uPzQdXE3CNSawUjCKZjWlurrwUVECSe8MHu3JGk8vGzq7iAfBQwy7rBXfJQ40AfXCB3A sCNE2pJ0mtOuiY+YLm62Ayjxl+4maCayi+P2cnJ681//3RqsrEeIhJsUzgqMA8TORWyX 6de83rVQjLJiv9AKbGqX11YUalWeFpUqiXqQ1IIAJBCwYUwKMRaN9Em1PWNUYgq3vr7U 5NAqcjYRQjqr0gzpHkC/GXRCGlhSJrNtSQlid6BHrs7tsvmDecFnQpOsYrILvs8h/BNY Wmgg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338QqyOZGexhxGOgRpQibW9xfu9qAglqRA7W0hsyjdbMxAIEwDv Yxu/gfZWu93B603Y5UpbDJu2GqvX1TysbQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHZbkWLL5kDbKI/SZUjzSjicCWa7KF9Hi7FjEQyb36KstUC8HEFIk5im+xDJ7QH35gLPSNcQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4f46:: with SMTP id pj6mr17879941pjb.63.1635137049085;  Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:44:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a135sm5841114pfd.96.2021.10.24.21.44.07 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:44:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 17:44:05 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 04:44:17 -0000

Hi,

I have re-read the whole document and I am very happy with it.

In case I forget later, many thanks to Eliot, Brian R, and Peter for driv=
ing this forward.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter
    Thinking of the IETF standards process: https://xkcd.com/2530/

On 22-Oct-21 21:13, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
>=20
> This begins the two week last call on
> draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]=C2=A0 This call will run through F=
riday,
> 5 Nov 2021.=C2=A0 Please send your comments to this mailing list.=C2=A0=20
We will
> address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of
> course on list).
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model=

>=20
>=20


From nobody Sun Oct 24 22:44:28 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559FB3A0063 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:44:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=RGGK3kOp; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Vohp06MB
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUBLmRLjIDtk for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC4C43A0061 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F833201D47 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 01:44:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 01:44:18 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=YnMYO 7XPmpoHSgw4MZY0cQeZ5jmsL5noOJ9xrX6rKhk=; b=RGGK3kOpBZdLhdFfFJP2M 6aVTbdGKckF9rU/Ytsf+2hyhPanBXFW9CIHP/UJ4YibV/Uqlw8rJPlV1tUaAvrOB N9ehyD3gqnQvRfCqAvv/68iyCjoSKK6t6HdYgt0rlh0DE0oB2/qByepwxsxMXvYn koIaohDDnmKdpYWkbYrUBt+PmQqTQbX2TIQuOi1k/Ll1dIKoez0fEHhdklRC9sqr uY06QXCLZO/e1TzmHJuNRXYZ/zT+eAkAE6tvfc/BfoiiZR2lQzqcZ2RwtkzIBbE5 1iq8//Mx6BPKcGYugzJN5CaVyb7hDCJQOWLcGLpbEIOj8i2qpqh58Gez5bGKsJAe Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=YnMYO7XPmpoHSgw4MZY0cQeZ5jmsL5noOJ9xrX6rK hk=; b=Vohp06MBUIe5jX5oI49lJ7HTlVmrm4qaPptGRzrTptRseAyMeAt8nV0cM T9xVGY/i3xo7hDun7QKGa06Fk6JsS4ZAn7Qdx0VCpdwsN6/hi+6kXwglQDjIMFZ5 G0U0f+wuVWrqT6ZoIBH7kQrFzYu6/2mUvCMAN5ZL8CKFKrfzKRzIBTgp4UNoa/Je 5Iw/aR0NB7F/1pNxREfn7KORjFxFrMewxwKRRk0SF5LQMgnkoOnFokKJ8t0+bD3r LPz79ADv31DlY/eDpZGRsuwj78CzoB0sfqjrrRnONHAAyPVPk0Uh0rZPM3sXEEIM TU8RLbd8vzRBV5f05AhyrPyK1LJHA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefgedgleejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveffhfejgfejvdelje ejhfdtudfhiedtgfdvlefhgfdthefgffekgfevgfeukedunecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihht hhhusgdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhirggsrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuih iivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidr nhgvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2BC3F3C0D56; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 01:44:17 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: 
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 16:43:57 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 05:44:26 -0000

Hey everyone,

I've read this again fairly closely.  It is good, though I think we migh=
t want to adjust a few things.  I've opened two issues that could either=
 be lack of clarity or a lack of a decision.  They are related:

https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/93
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/94

There is text that limits appeals of RSWG decisions to just procedural m=
atters.  (i.e., you can't appeal if you disagree)

There is no similar text for RSAB decisions, but the supporting language=
 seems to assume that is the case (that's #93).  However, if you look at=
 #94 (which asks if the RSAB bear the responsibility for timely decision=
s in the event of a dispute) the RSAB is responsible for interpreting ex=
isting policies.  That interpretation might be cause for appeal if someo=
ne disagrees with the interpretation from the RSAB.  Should this be in s=
cope for appeal?

That is, when pressed for a timely answer in order to resolve a dispute.=
..

* the RSAB might make a decision that they believe is necessary because =
the existing policies do not cover it, but someone might disagree and sa=
y that the outcome is covered by existing policies
* the RSAB might make a decision that everyone agrees is not covered by =
existing policies, the substance of which the (prospective) appellant di=
sagrees with

I've also opened a few editorial issues and pull requests, but I think t=
hat this is good shape overall.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021, at 19:13, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> This begins the two week last call on=20
> draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]=C2=A0 This call will run through =
Friday,=20
> 5 Nov 2021.=C2=A0 Please send your comments to this mailing list.=C2=A0=
 We will=20
> address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of=20
> course on list).
>
> Brian and Eliot
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>
>
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
> Attachments:
> * OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc
> * OpenPGP_signature


From nobody Sun Oct 24 23:31:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7880B3A07A1 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 23:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJxmj4lePXuU for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 23:31:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C873A0788 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 23:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:e9f5:803c:df6f:3961] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:e9f5:803c:df6f:3961]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19P6UtNR3802679 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:30:55 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635143455; bh=BHXJ0SFf4ARAlz8UVr6JGv/f0PoISIL3G9FXcGvewLk=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=bpOdhaCRCrXKxiWMbcL6dpgZbLlue5SaMPNhTQN1Xl9sOR+PIax6Q+TJ7ZuNl0Nld /kdwRtUbVxsH3AhxRnBTGlVXjdM/BCN0DOIKbQ1/87LbD6NYMq0ceB65fK3NCUTtoh A54uuu3YBq9j10kP5LwQtqnrVfLgLLB6N7EBf8uU=
Message-ID: <61579e65-f2b2-e378-75e3-4abf0c6e55bf@lear.ch>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:30:54 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0TTPFvtWJOlsbw0GsLFkt5Yo"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issues 93 and 94 (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 06:31:06 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------0TTPFvtWJOlsbw0GsLFkt5Yo
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------H50Zt5qmdamFxJEy0X0a6vIZ";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <61579e65-f2b2-e378-75e3-4abf0c6e55bf@lear.ch>
Subject: Issues 93 and 94 (Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021)
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------H50Zt5qmdamFxJEy0X0a6vIZ
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DpfRdgzOWM2r320agHvfRABT"

--------------DpfRdgzOWM2r320agHvfRABT
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------VhhEIptzAurhckl9eSewJd7k"

--------------VhhEIptzAurhckl9eSewJd7k
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------VhhEIptzAurhckl9eSewJd7k
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
Hi Martin,

    
Thanks for taking the time, and for doing your LC check in a
      timely manner.=C2=A0 As you've indicated, it seems to me that these=
 two
      issues have to be taken together.

    

    
On 25.10.21 07:43, Martin Thomson
      wrote:

    

    
=

      
Hey everyone,

I've read this again fairly closely.  It is good, though I think we might=
 want to adjust a few things.  I've opened two issues that could either b=
e lack of clarity or a lack of a decision.  They are related:

https://github.com/intarchboard/program=
-rfced-future/issues/93
https://github.com/intarchboard/program=
-rfced-future/issues/94

There is text that limits appeals of RSWG decisions to just procedural ma=
tters.  (i.e., you can't appeal if you disagree)

There is no similar text for RSAB decisions, but the supporting language =
seems to assume that is the case (that's #93).

    

    
In my opinion, the intent of this group was at least that appeals
      of the RSAB to the IAB=C2=A0 be limited to procedural matters.=C2=A0=
 I could
      be mistaken, but people should say so now if they believe I am.
=

    

    


    

    
=

      
  However, if you look at #9=
4 (which asks if the RSAB bear the responsibility for timely decisions in=
 the event of a dispute) the RSAB is responsible for interpreting existin=
g policies.  That interpretation might be cause for appeal if someone dis=
agrees with the interpretation from the RSAB.  Should this be in scope fo=
r appeal?

    

    
What Issue 94 reads is as follows:

    

      

        

          
However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be
            resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG
            formulates a more general policy.

        

        
"the parties" is not quite specific enough. I think that you
          want to pin this responsibility on the RSAB. That suggests
          that an appeals path that is not exclusively process-based
          might be needed (see #=
93).

      

    

    
This is in Section 4.4, describing what happens at the time of
      publication of an RFC.=C2=A0 The "parties" here may refer to two or=

      more stream owners, and indeed the previous bullet states the
      following:

    

      
=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 If there is a confli=
ct with a
        cross-stream policy, the RPC should

        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 consult with the RSAB to achieve a=
 resolution.

      

    

    
I interpret the previous intent of the group for these two
      bullets as having been that the RSAB should provide the RPC
      interim guidance so that publication can indeed proceed, the
      assumption being that the RSAB could move considerably faster than
      the RSWG.=C2=A0 Again, if I'm wrong, please say so.

    
This still leave's Martin's question about the IAB being able to
      address more than just process.

    

    
People should comment on how they want these two issues resolved.<=
/p>
    
Eliot

    

  

--------------VhhEIptzAurhckl9eSewJd7k--

--------------DpfRdgzOWM2r320agHvfRABT
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------DpfRdgzOWM2r320agHvfRABT--


--------------H50Zt5qmdamFxJEy0X0a6vIZ--

--------------0TTPFvtWJOlsbw0GsLFkt5Yo
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF2Tx4FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPf
sAf/XW6W2CmwVHuI7NkEBLfE4gdU/E+L7K3xlY8d5NKp1CrTIL+WZNr4tmAES3z6vSot2PF55Di9
WNsEzUSIeboN8nDxUORrJCNjPOEsRHY4DrNN1o4kxAvsCHBf1oG43ucZdyPHcECBzcL7IDY3MIaE
epSIoKJOMGwkFlvoGSQ28z0Tit4hYGqexpeHVJ8vZ0o9rua7K9xm8xs8eTTlTyzwn9R+Va263uQC
1wAeVp8Ccy40mIBu9okPHz0u6dOL60bTj0RDaSbGGT+t0/OGtsdzzwOIyroHTbaWUNemaPvWEIL+
QszZAbqz6gsJhH8k1xHNu9tn2cL4bKKJD7ggFyB7Dg==
=r0u2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------0TTPFvtWJOlsbw0GsLFkt5Yo--


From nobody Mon Oct 25 16:10:50 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06ADA3A0784 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 16:10:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=p3oEzevj; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=oAVVSwUG
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iu5el4GgK4yR for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 16:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0C403A0029 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 16:10:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C5D5C034B for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:10:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:10:44 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=Dfn1WOTOanVwac4S3AFD1U8LTmoYmaJ4aIeGL8wj+6E=; b=p3oEzevj 0xz9OlSdeUEnaT5u9SZ0TrrO5ieVN2+oZBNbIJCBiM/6u+bgealRq40CqX7uAeC8 aaJxtws/KU1MUqF/w84hXenuf/6V591D1X+TrDW1mvCDpsvmaIG9v9yip/cueo0Z sJoejZtwWaQ/b4tGSQREA634yKkIrOWRDXzIX+SsmGNd0rRz1HFnAklaFNudP5Dp 6EfqAunwav03ZvYB9pHWyLpm8+8uOwwKhq67awvbzpqDTMzQFMr65Fb7FnhXGyj6 HS6VX8XN2KP6vAChtjoU74pyyYWUaKEdJ2SuDiREOhuCZr4tRDR/o5cHrJ2tp04I rTYB9bwa5dZ+TQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Dfn1WOTOanVwac4S3AFD1U8LTmoYm aJ4aIeGL8wj+6E=; b=oAVVSwUGxDDAYPjKrY/lvXP6xpDJksTMl3vFJ7vqitjVL CvuGv1o5TMTrFAyFt+Cc6p0hWDPV5okmz0BRwLOzmk33+8BOE7AnE8mMrLVpd8n3 +dOsITcTJgIW2C1q6eYXF/r1rDMm6YQQ7IafRawlPlGkg6xkPtXM9Hok/lOkBaD4 fW8DtYjqMClhjkXsCDMGW9cLVX7L4rWs/LDReAN+KQssgVtJLO1dBks3Jb0fLPsa vQzSKHz1TugIiEWH7Bh2qICo12jjUA9j1CHtmGX74LHlSW0b77SdaF5Xf9hn75lN Z9DHAKw+LiS13Fp8Dp4/ITZeD9lSgscivHCuBGmvw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefiedguddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfffhffvufgtsehttdertd erredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigv nhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeegueehueejvdeiveffhedvke egffekgffgtdetleefkeeffedtjefhtdduvddutdenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgs rdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id D5F483C0821; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:10:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <4923fef3-7c5e-435f-969f-e956e6c078e9@www.fastmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:10:24 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] The 2418 process backstop
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:10:50 -0000

The draft currently says:

> Absent specific guidance in this document regarding the roles and responsibilities of the chairs, the general guidance provided in Section 6.1 of [RFC2418] should be considered appropriate.

Would it be better if this referred to the functioning of the group as a whole? Such as,

> Absent specific guidance in this document regarding the functioning of the working group, the general guidance provided in Section 6.1 of [RFC2418] should be considered appropriate.

-- filed as https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/90


From nobody Mon Oct 25 19:09:57 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBADD3A0F7F for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.228
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XSJHvWHI2uOw for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qv1-xf34.google.com (mail-qv1-xf34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0215A3A0F74 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qv1-xf34.google.com with SMTP id u25so258547qve.2 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=l23w8Rw9lL1FVhiwPtwKZbOQpw2jwBuAOuDxaqaHndg=; b=Ghip7ts4cpQxSLYY98FsgWpWIItcS91VHmND/CE+tN/npNKYBE1pOHSIkSzbBnB5v3 rZPPnYRzmPwaFJlYscvlxC1u62sanRXGhD9WGqILlOew0N+91ZM2g8DcS4y5vR+9r6Nm wopiNmXc1v5/qgatZOJhhEU5qcducHpJ7AJ7mwPa53Mt8e3Eqkudpof0AoCtTWWutc+v zlf8SUhmZgT4KCvS8gsGYEb2ChH3VjuriYjY2jpVZZAmnYMAj0D+AUfAHQ40FHgGi998 KutnJEYmy31YISwTVm/RxiDIAa6KDkK+wbAV+3kbkcHiGUxgXHc23Z9mEl8Zet0lhjoY EkXQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=l23w8Rw9lL1FVhiwPtwKZbOQpw2jwBuAOuDxaqaHndg=; b=6mQx87qijbwtEwYloVgrgFKlhmHtDnb/jMZ2dUlbztR1lr2Y0zKSY1tE34lIk7OD/6 rzSZJM70TfIHWoQCJkXdB1OoRjZ6lslerRS5wT8jNak5bO2Faiwr/WHMM56J+0pRdZhZ adIxsXVMCI0Ko5A1zPUTC51VQOx7nJMGjsZtl7UP4k2NeU+T3tp3ob5s1eSywhfNCdpH +8+kCcZY+OuQociVm3tmgbPdLoXZWSA59ggxFIHAdM0DPLG1aRAIJ9kvLxxTayzq2k1b wGCGUDg5PUQLNF3Mr3PqFZEM0BWzwlRoOzSWULT2//HZ7FP/bZHDEsoLHqKC/QOjE2Jz CTEQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533X4nhr1Shx6P51LOhpwLxYiYGcYIT7ixZCzDKl6qZMAXp3H8Ma k6l9Hhzx7oaNTmW6Sb4Y/xXG0YG13jiwKfqPyWc=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzA4+WQp/9RFf2bY6D4YbxwYczJtj+i8qlBmbnDgrjNphpTYTSkC9Zv5G3hDz16ZN8BZLv70g==
X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e58d:: with SMTP id t13mr15178586qvm.7.1635214188923;  Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i17sm9767728qka.3.2021.10.25.19.09.47 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <286956e6-8816-6eaf-fc2a-e08e240bd8b8@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 22:09:46 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <4923fef3-7c5e-435f-969f-e956e6c078e9@www.fastmail.com>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <4923fef3-7c5e-435f-969f-e956e6c078e9@www.fastmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] The 2418 process backstop
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 02:09:53 -0000

On 10/25/2021 7:10 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> The draft currently says:
>
>> Absent specific guidance in this document regarding the roles and responsibilities of the chairs, the general guidance provided in Section 6.1 of [RFC2418] should be considered appropriate.
> Would it be better if this referred to the functioning of the group as a whole? Such as,
>
>> Absent specific guidance in this document regarding the functioning of the working group, the general guidance provided in Section 6.1 of [RFC2418] should be considered appropriate.
> -- filed as https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/90
>
Section 6.1 is about the responsibilities of the chair - so no.

But "should be considered appropriate" is pretty wishy washy. So:

The text of section 6.1 of RFC2418 applies to the RSWG chairs' roles and 
responsibilities unless otherwise modified by guidance in this document 
or documents published later in this series.


From nobody Mon Oct 25 19:59:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D8A3A0942; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.12
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=FnI1//cx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VkyjJXV3
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6eSL25Dh1n-D; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:59:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 929C33A0883; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:59:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4702C5C033E; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 22:59:29 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 22:59:29 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=O b+jeOITjRsiO0HYzSlJKVHJjdqzwWqP/2Ak18ctElw=; b=FnI1//cxC8xw0njCF dDjwqd9roB3SlSc59d+JpOptT/17X2nQ3sdv3CAv1gbVpagNON6PSehW7Euld2Gp XnJGi23qJEVBQtX6+udvVNLC6bXyrItsDiJkGJqvaRNYi2yJJAndzZ0VnjVsHXpa rYwQ/OWk7PHugin8O81JexwmC+0/GB7Ja1hrU3ntI8wY3iFWO6hAKQuiThgXQ0Ww ozFFm9pv9MLquxTho3ze1KEK6u4Xd9J2A2m3WPptI0a0/+G1vHChLTSkmfLPYwyd BQD1DBsdeE0lcP+7YsrXfpdZ+fEz+J+UfpUf9A51ZmpNXYcOo/bclyqKRAW5/GTl DV5NA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Ob+jeOITjRsiO0HYzSlJKVHJjdqzwWqP/2Ak18ctE lw=; b=VkyjJXV3XoUF0X7d2mTjp8E5dHZmuT3kkLite4p8yhoEp+L03JGR9KiUd y2VHjq/fzFPFCqTXhqi1Uc7SgBaLra6GiFSk7Fx37ZoNgFdAObMAm2FL4tm8cYnr sRakT0zW2nk8zCnOsBwVAOYMs4RLWnOsRO9ExHawcfNnUiZvbT6xtKG78LnUP01J donOJ/eyGeBkfG+mtxRiBfhmC2WkXSKwdQKiEiVXU3Te7UygHVtMHk7Ppq5WlVzw MG9l+9t4uScFTdLBU+hi/I97ESVZLk8njX+D3Q5ZJJM+3i7WM7x2kvnzP3HBQYbg 8gOVUjYth0AbAe7LvsjZcsyLL3Xig==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefiedgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeiteduuddvudfftedtuddvgeehtdeuheehjeegledtleekvefgffehfefffeff gfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhirggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvth enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhho thesmhhnohhtrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 22:59:26 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:59:23 +1100
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 02:59:37 -0000

I've read over the document and am generally very happy where we've =
ended up.

A few questions occurred to me:

1) Should we use this opportunity to nominate a set of existing RFCs to =
flip over to the Editorial stream? If we don't, it'll likely need to be =
done one-by-one as they need to be revised.

2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive control =
of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the 'readability and =
presentation of RFCs'.

3) One of the things that concerned me about the previous model was the =
lack of any direct link between the amount of work requested of the RPC =
and what it ultimately cost us as an organisation. In other words, we =
keep on asking for more because the costs are hidden. I don't know if we =
can address that in *this* document, but it's something that continues =
to concern me. Any thoughts here?

Cheers,



> On 22 Oct 2021, at 7:13 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> Dear Colleagues,
>=20
> This begins the two week last call on =
draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through Friday, =
5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  We will =
address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of =
course on list).
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> [1] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Mon Oct 25 20:16:40 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6DF3A0C5A for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:16:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=niCBpOyG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=OG/CNtI4
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x2IMfU37Af5q for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57D423A0C35 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129DC5C025E for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:16:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:16:32 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=gHPeFhKTSFhlq6XhNW2taZQ2bqZlwHC 2yGrysDeUEoU=; b=niCBpOyGiTrUNn98ZvMrYV3qpW9RCzpxPZKKIF3FZ/siapq 3+N7MFDQF++TUTde/99740dlMpxXdpDCimlggUnJwHih+UZaAsz1qp6JBPccQh6L WJIOoawGOMCdGJco9Huf+QdAQPXO1dO0NLHjcX56KtVZshdXEn6+AHMavPSP/RUf BnwyZF8sl9R9uTj8LY3JihbNeL0SS4/0Io11I+FlYedMyw+ZI5EqUenbDas741Ra fqSD5aNk4jXLc/gflFXK5ZzrqE+KFXz3WNfl0bEc1VEJIJ3IBPu1nLzWyatEnIIU F3hJvmeoRRfqJomgmeDeJyUre6z7tJmuMRkgBPQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=gHPeFh KTSFhlq6XhNW2taZQ2bqZlwHC2yGrysDeUEoU=; b=OG/CNtI45WmnV2qF1Erne3 Tf8EqJVsRiigQQwcUPiJBUFWZN2BxNf7dDQztthHuIiuYeaRzqaev2fNqHAGl8OL M+CPOpQ7ISGyk6u2rqOX6xZZf7nw8cN2p9nolDkXj1N1lnsYeh/mNC6CLxAztRyy bf9OVhduPrfmuKOA2poInNOmvp1wmqR/sj/60lzulMd/IlhG7zSMQOIm31kl3LTC J3DcrKYMeraQn8B7o7cpwCENwJ/OC0Ksm7HFBQU9mQMXFCzdrONFU7rXVUfE9Lrs 2rfL5pbgX/GHdsFkMhgk7SChk2iDlActsLCF4s9b++MsqZcAKMWBf/kAGM+yYuKg ==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefiedgiedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefke evhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeegffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A25D13C0821; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:16:31 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:16:12 +1100
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:16:38 -0000

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021, at 13:59, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 1) Should we use this opportunity to nominate a set of existing RFCs to 
> flip over to the Editorial stream? If we don't, it'll likely need to be 
> done one-by-one as they need to be revised.

An ad hoc approach is fine.

> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive control 
> of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the 'readability 
> and presentation of RFCs'.

I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it could be clearer.

My interpretation is that there is a format specification owned by the RSWG, but the RPC will need to develop policies and practices that allow them to use that format specification effectively.  That is, the format specification is loose, but they have a need for tighter (operational) constraints on its interpretation.  For instance, an XML element might have semantics defined in an RFC, but the actual usage might benefit from some guidelines that ensure consistent use of that element.

(I have no opinion on your third question.)


From nobody Mon Oct 25 21:40:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F9B3A0D36; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:40:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DPu8mhdKUrlj; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6918E3A0CF5; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id c4so5535475plg.13; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3GtFQqWO6A4mzT3oUGDOOD/ZzROXgMCZc9/Vt3f9IY4=; b=cbynVmi3z7WVSkzARp6oGlolTt0+5+rYAp6s/9kXaBXdfuwhUN/cFXl49KtnuJ9pKr 3PeSx52mCegA147kBkToka9BDANyKkX7SMW6+s94popNDz7tKtki4VuwdF2OUEsOBmmC yKc+MITEihUfv6sSlPSAeb8fkoHyT/wDl1UCnSfWts66p55m6YJUu/NovHnzyxVM+O8H hCFKDjKLDSXosEbxB2EfQ58a0GnxfExnL6+YQEB5CcJ9q4jAuYkZJltXX4lTVDRO0DUW zWQQ5SCXcWKyFrYVpxrrMsq/gW14aYopMxNNzQqxS5vdYiYPfGHV/DijvHwmQioyMNHz HM0g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3GtFQqWO6A4mzT3oUGDOOD/ZzROXgMCZc9/Vt3f9IY4=; b=vBO9QSrTl9QotUr7UOSTokdUPOSgBoqZA/XJmvMBftv+t4gF0K0bATQnyHdTsbrqq6 T2FFqQbcSVA8hvfJF81/ZQH0pXgBWE0zOxpYGempvUPmLIH1O8f7lvnoU4qMKp2P7m3F JMMAUFnv6ouqsulaG6z2ne/5fpIlkXjVFBjG2XJiqfmiDN4hEkb/IecsofgKF8gNG6rJ Bpq5l++Z+o4WVp0lXMS4BPYtVaTAIufSounhL9LQ8+vDi5yc+KqyBLgeeepQjKDrBuR8 IKUlt7hO4zcxwXNIsK1WcOrooMCWh9j1rGtoSp3+e0aBWY0/5nV/tYknjiN3hQ/gA5ZT 6PMQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EW+cV/KURYs+IDmLKok+9SgL7Lm9NTTAp5sm++ztC0xYaGWNe r9ENCuxNLkbvATiuqdV19BR/yTsnDHO06g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbbDvxiFw9BTwOdL1Y4nmK7fkxZPpo01R9hkip/el3Q60/Llcm4K+SydiGPmCX+NaHTROOXg==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bd08:: with SMTP id y8mr25764305pjr.123.1635223210393;  Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:40:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u10sm6037450pfk.211.2021.10.25.21.40.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <97be1a61-e517-a801-8c4e-4c163f145a8a@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:40:04 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 04:40:17 -0000

On 26-Oct-21 15:59, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> I've read over the document and am generally very happy where we've ended up.
> 
> A few questions occurred to me:
> 
> 1) Should we use this opportunity to nominate a set of existing RFCs to flip over to the Editorial stream? If we don't, it'll likely need to be done one-by-one as they need to be revised.


I agree with Martin. Put it on the RSWG's initial action list. (There are other similar issues, such as reclassifying many of the early RFCs that are currently classified as Unknown.)

> 
> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive control of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the 'readability and presentation of RFCs'.


Section 4.2 starts thus:
"Under and consistent with the high-level policies defined for the RFC
  Series in general or particular streams,..."

I sincerely hope your reading is wrong. Maybe we need a text tweak to clarify. We've assumed all along that RSWG/RSAB will approve the style guide RFC, for example. It's clearly an RFC that would fit in the Editorial stream. Similarly the SVG mess (see rfc-interest passim) and any revision of the various RFCs about xml2rfcv3. But in both cases, clearly the RPC manages the details and the RPC and/or the LLC provide the tools.

We have carefully constructed the rules such that RPC staff can and should participate in RSWG discussions.
  
> 3) One of the things that concerned me about the previous model was the lack of any direct link between the amount of work requested of the RPC and what it ultimately cost us as an organisation. In other words, we keep on asking for more because the costs are hidden. I don't know if we can address that in *this* document, but it's something that continues to concern me. Any thoughts here?

Indeed, I don't think we should cover that here. One benefit of the new regime is that this really becomes the same question as we might ask about anything else funded through the LLC, so I think we should punt this to the LLC too.

Rgds
    Brian C
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
>> On 22 Oct 2021, at 7:13 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  We will address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on list).
>>
>> Brian and Eliot
>>
>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>>
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> 
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
> 


From nobody Tue Oct 26 03:07:43 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F421D3A0D6C; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wb2Z-T57a8ve; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:07:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF4093A0C35; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b877:1ebd:d558:e93a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 028F3600CED; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:07:16 +0300 (EEST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1635242837; bh=Tanu6A40lOU87ECPQ7XESVkjEUR5K789n9X6+588zuE=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=qGf8gtC/A5S2mMYIaLWaxBbBNTaieliMjXS7Hpw0HeCzxPu0p+XdZhLs9zuXv7Dfy JVbSbrExPnCnckz31hvA1C4fVJSD0qm3vjaR7GfwKX56hGK3VlCDZx9Qlsl/9a8lVG 3Q0jyXlNS2HExBLJAdBmXBMTC74M05ZnA3oJSUO4=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\))
From: Lars Eggert 
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:07:14 +0300
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-MailScanner-ID: 028F3600CED.A43DC
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:07:41 -0000

Hi,

On 2021-10-22, at 11:13, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05

I read the document. It's generally in very good shape. I opened a few =
issues and suggest a few PRs:

Are contributions to the RSWG contributions to the IETF?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/100

Member of the community vs. delegate
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/98

3-month timer restart?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/97

Require participants to publish I-Ds, not just generate them
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/99

Wording clarifications related to appointing bodies and stream managers
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/96

Suggestions to address some nits
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/95

Thanks,
Lars


From nobody Tue Oct 26 03:43:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BAE3A0E73; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:43:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nItn0GqP2rQ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EB7C3A0F2E; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 03:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19QAh2H1437560 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:43:03 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635244983; bh=59WKxNctGquojTETwLHZ2wBcTktVbetwtLbqkDWZARM=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=vtpTRW8EBET9MyIt15jiYWsbU7MsoovpodB1YLbVX/a/iEy8iRcVxdOY4ADBa2/h6 gkp3c++UEqrT9M9IIzjKDTeKmxmx/2hoGBP7zqjpZlTdrCJraHqs9f66HRQGXPca6R bRuUpvEGZj9XtQ5ZpkmjFU1Ym7aRb/JvTi33m7YI=
Message-ID: <08d5d7a9-2167-96f1-bc45-bf23c58ecee9@lear.ch>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:43:00 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Lars Eggert 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Ci9kBnjNOiUHGzpmN3quirsj"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:43:19 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------Ci9kBnjNOiUHGzpmN3quirsj
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------sWMWUIEiLThVhblmvt5GrkyL";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Lars Eggert 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <08d5d7a9-2167-96f1-bc45-bf23c58ecee9@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends
 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------sWMWUIEiLThVhblmvt5GrkyL
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9dmIJL7whCrxKXIMO2szci4I"

--------------9dmIJL7whCrxKXIMO2szci4I
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------9dmIJL7whCrxKXIMO2szci4I
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------9dmIJL7whCrxKXIMO2szci4I--


--------------sWMWUIEiLThVhblmvt5GrkyL--

--------------Ci9kBnjNOiUHGzpmN3quirsj
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF327QFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNK
OAgA3F+vY0G/4TqTZ7sj9aNU0bc+5MlPhyv8Fave3x9ERUOmjp6YcnO2gPzDKlOR4fqJDcJ3kuhn
RTh/Dj2gkgH7qlbVWDFquhD6Hta1ClEdbHLn+wGPTHoJTsdueyzay2Qp4V+NEqAXlDMwmgkmbS21
Ok08hsEVmrhkyAa+OVEdyF6uDp14qHTJJ3jDyKolDJA1ZPo/K5EW4H1lyYwYTkz+MY0KnNfZ1PEa
KdwunnzKhXgdaA2vqOVH/nu1iQZ49wDSZAvLKJlP04WqPiah6rRi/MT0cm/6jHybd9cbpogr3/q3
+lfW4Ht6vz1oiT6an/3mv7EYDWk0CN/ZXG2hFGaelg==
=NkRM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------Ci9kBnjNOiUHGzpmN3quirsj--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 07:35:13 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136993A11FF; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ac-3kMTyySw7; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2099.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B1FD3A11FD; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:35:03 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=bQ4Zt1GHdJAbqaZlbhhFHXqc0XD8FO5UhMzlwR6MKsV+STXKemJAx9/gQxPEc70gXgUn/I6DABUb4nUZUMEQXh3mu8LU7ano4RJG8ZWyHhx85uKPPA8nGLduUsOlDc1sJJ7yPdDtK3kNtBmayInRkdQ1OkI9oWOgyICOT8Lh1pOcj14dLjquFaJUs+Bmc1BcQF2hyUw2boxkkNPx1VZHfbBWWs6gQoN5s2WCVZB4PjJZ2GmqKGde727Ig/F9LCog7zeX1yEsryIGzxmqEU4FiVaCdIqjQuOZJ+BEGKVRhEZQGgRGgUQP+NGNGGsvKzlWU0h+FRPYfAqROAmmOWCGDA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=//0aUZsfQdZ866xmJAfGWNjsP22Y1g5nKtSbTDIOnYQ=; b=NGnykP3hOsv2rp+mtAANZmMI9p5qFoLY6vamaU7yYheaAC9pCXHgMSGab85jp8/PHlThAtW5TilI+jVlzo7ftDkTWeb6B3qp9XcANiVTb5O+W8Yy8MsGEbvFpxBIwRGXNaAgDQQ4YtaFJgdUQqiSsTi1aQFysJhxzSryBynb1U8TKoYCrMGXE0RizkRtYG2zyP/wBAOOW2xmDdSeES56Jx7JKkijHVJWcdVLlxsqPam8ZBHiRV9mSVHB1SFMjIeTNphKrp38L3Eud5sXm/34fLz8Ky2Iagc4C0ivxL4St8BcLn4nTUFG8mvKMlH9mx8Z3T7+In+YE5nURh3Rm7zqYw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=//0aUZsfQdZ866xmJAfGWNjsP22Y1g5nKtSbTDIOnYQ=; b=U13mztuhOjQAvkNIMRMW7fHTltbC0qQ25bEAAtGrVTPuM7RoIMGWSF4PRMMoZnOWmHA9eRB6RN6Rn4seoxSAHUIy8KXNXc/P9zZbHu2hjqIkOaDXb0E89IauiNDhYi5w3LHGjiadoYEJ/JZsif5k357jvV73blfI+hhmnylwW+zAFkl1QdZKpGZ73IHWK6bGU6qVo1AEyNfc0iRbgqGXjC2xgXvD9oBC1Ja6my8YDptMIgxRYMaIZ0vWzx58yRAW5TfnTLwQmRt01Qcf0EFEmO+IMwMNwmtktrtrvJvq6z5/vhdRMmiYz2Mu0I00CpWsMvUoq9YyVL7cHjb8Y1o9lA==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR02MB3222.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:1b::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.16; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:34:56 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4628.020; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:34:56 +0000
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:34:54 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6criux56HBvzE62a9knAapOC0aH51vTMs"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DU2PR04CA0298.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:28c::33) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.124] (95.45.153.252) by DU2PR04CA0298.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:28c::33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.13 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:34:55 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: dd271dfd-5d77-4d3e-a925-08d9988dc77e
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR02MB3222:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:4502;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(235185007)(36756003)(110136005)(66946007)(508600001)(8676002)(956004)(38100700002)(66556008)(2616005)(66476007)(6486002)(83380400001)(5660300002)(2906002)(21480400003)(66574015)(86362001)(44832011)(186003)(33964004)(31696002)(8936002)(16576012)(4326008)(316002)(31686004)(786003)(54906003)(26005)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?ckx2SlMrZCtGb3krc3lOVmowRmk4eGJZT1lLdEczOTFLUThFbGNtVFUraE05?= =?utf-8?B?bWY3bGtVN1BsTHNuZURNemZ3c09GRGhsc0pVY09iOE1EUGUwbjg5dDZ5K0hp?= =?utf-8?B?NzZVYjBrTzgwNGNqR1BIRlppY2huV3BvZk1HYUovVGpTRDJlS2NxaXlSTXR5?= =?utf-8?B?cVcycndhOGFwSnpCcFVZTnluTU1OdnovZXhWenZ5Rk9sL2hkVERVSFd3a1FD?= =?utf-8?B?dDhjai9VVklkN044Z2VBb2ZKR1FqSjAxc01ZbHIzTWFiUjZFWWZDcVpaYzV4?= =?utf-8?B?UjZXczVRYmpTZkhjelRGVFIzVDZhRnhsVDdjVWVTZ2d3VDZsNlRIS0FKeGtp?= =?utf-8?B?Qm1hb2NjUVR5OE15ZjdMMG5IalhzUitwdFl0Lzd0V0Z0cVNYRDg1UmQvUVQw?= =?utf-8?B?bFpmV0tJemhUTVg0VWFaeGpoWWxydGRlU2FVMmRxUFpGZmxicng2OWhaR0E3?= =?utf-8?B?bUJsZmFaTjdZM2ZTcnRlWWJzNlc0bDZqRmZGU3BxdThYZTFnLy9KQkZ2djA2?= =?utf-8?B?WDI5QkFCcTI5aWVQVENObCsrdjZkejQvaHZNZjlncWlNWi9nNFNMdU9hdE00?= =?utf-8?B?WG9renpUNGRUM3FVUDNOUGFjNGZPVjlaTEkwUHRVUitYMGw3RC9hcVU5aWx0?= =?utf-8?B?U0lqRGFhaVU3eHQxTFQ0YTk3Vmp1eGlYRVh1T1oxY1lLVDBwdHhFeWlwT1pV?= =?utf-8?B?VXBvcUlISWNuUGdQUHpkQUROZ1RTNG96Um9tNVQrYjVNeVcvZ1BQTHdtbnl1?= =?utf-8?B?cFFVTEFaVm1lN3F5aGk0WnNYekNxNnBML1VybDUyS1lBK2ZhUk15Vy83VXBK?= =?utf-8?B?QXhtTUxrbVNkRm1DQitpNm1uU0RVWUpqSHV4eE9aZ29pK3lxWE9uQlBMRkR4?= =?utf-8?B?TG84Nlc2S25yM1IvbUtKQUJOZStqVlp5a0lReHFBK0RMSkhKanBNTUE5cklK?= =?utf-8?B?K2tQMlVYSmQ1Q2VIcFk0YkQ3VmpkbmVtYkVnOG9TaTgvZzVlSm5SZm1memxB?= =?utf-8?B?VTJWTXpmTGNwMjF6TGs2R0c3M0ZqeG9QbFY4dkZ5b1VlcExERFZjREdvL3Rl?= =?utf-8?B?RTYvb29oZllSekFFM3JHdnBHM2dCdmVlZVNVZnFwd3dUYXpLa2FPZG1jUUh6?= =?utf-8?B?T3pIdEUvM2xKb1FVbmpvN2dwTjFSSTdscnhnN1hFZ05BNklHZE5EN3BNSFBo?= =?utf-8?B?eUt0Qksxd3VuaGhTSDc2d0ZFU2pkZjhkR0hwTC9VZnF2bTROb3BacExtRlZq?= =?utf-8?B?K0cwVkRWVmhjUXhybE1kckxtMjFRakN0eTNjMytmWGZGekRqSEZJcVlWblRY?= =?utf-8?B?YWZKY3Q3QjF6YlJ0UXVJV1VyVU1OMXdKeTAxV1BjdXkrZi9ETi9ZbkxGY3pT?= =?utf-8?B?THpqMVJzY1pGNm5oUTJTVU9xYnRiZ0VPRnVYWlAyZy9yaGpDcGFkSTF0R2pD?= =?utf-8?B?ZjRyaUNsTTJhd2VBVGIyM29URDZEb3hiSEpwWU5lbHFBK0I4Mi9TdDR5Zld5?= =?utf-8?B?YnhnTnlURzBuMU55QUora3RReXJVc0F3dzB0dkJRQWZEYnZaVkJ2ZHZFVXJq?= =?utf-8?B?c1Z6aEF1Z0VqaER5a1JEQWxteUs2MVdBb2M3RGpJeGR5SCsrK2NKNktpYUtw?= =?utf-8?B?blczZnpWU2g3SEt3Z3MyaTJVbXA3ejF5TkVESThkSzZ0aDJDaTN2Ujd1eFNN?= =?utf-8?B?SlhsZHhjc2dVQ0srY1VsQW5aMjFELzdhMEtmQ2R3K3FvQUcxT2lKc1VJZi9M?= =?utf-8?B?WFVVdnRPSUV0b3lndkVRaE9BaXo4cW5BakZnd2ptYVdXZWV1S2J6NVJKWE1G?= =?utf-8?B?NWFuTjFPeFlEZk9Zd1dHbm1JSThGUUk2NG83OTB3am9lTUhRMmlxNzA4Nyti?= =?utf-8?B?Qk9PL1d4d2t4S2ZoVkxSZ2pvNlppU29sZW0vc2RQdStuTVIwQXVQWlZiM2Vs?= =?utf-8?B?S0tUUE9rYlBpSkwyTWRUZVltZXl0Nko5MksxdEF0S2FHTTBlWWF6NU5ScTY2?= =?utf-8?B?WTBoQnJIVW5YQUZ1cTBod2w4WHFPb0JLM3QzVjZxUSs5MDRvSlArRzN4VlhN?= =?utf-8?B?eURFdHpyY25ScEp6WGVqcFZaSmxJSU92ZUZGdFR2cTZzK0czYWVKSjdneE5t?= =?utf-8?Q?guAM=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dd271dfd-5d77-4d3e-a925-08d9988dc77e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2021 14:34:56.0619 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: J2mAsZBlAraH4k9dqWG80pJ6pMam1FY+g+vXQw0G1/wG+ONZRehktB63Z+YcjihI
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR02MB3222
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:35:10 -0000

--6criux56HBvzE62a9knAapOC0aH51vTMs
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Jb8axkdzIFIJfr9q7cupiI02Kf8p8YUVH";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov
 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>

--Jb8axkdzIFIJfr9q7cupiI02Kf8p8YUVH
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------2A8800C255C7173CCCC336CA"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------2A8800C255C7173CCCC336CA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now read
the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussion.
I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by it, but
I don't object.

A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't recall
being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):

- There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation
of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as
that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a
total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
may be best placed to start that.

- In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"
authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok
as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think
it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that the
LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 process,
i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community
currently want.

- Lastly, a question: has anyone asked people who've held
the role of RSE (or acting RSE), or significant folks from
the RPC, if there's anything falling between the cracks?
(I.e. not whether or not they like the draft just whether
something's being missed.) I think an explicit check like
that might be useful, and it could be those people might
otherwise be reticent to send a full review to the list.
I'd be fine if the chairs just did this off-list and brought
any interesting results to the list, so this is more a
request to the programme chairs really.

Cheers,
S.

--------------2A8800C255C7173CCCC336CA
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------2A8800C255C7173CCCC336CA--

--Jb8axkdzIFIJfr9q7cupiI02Kf8p8YUVH--

--6criux56HBvzE62a9knAapOC0aH51vTMs
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=ArSj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--6criux56HBvzE62a9knAapOC0aH51vTMs--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 07:39:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8907D3A0E82; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nrSZNQUwZTjp; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:38:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B64EC3A1220; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19QEcpL1554036 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:38:52 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635259132; bh=3/K1iv+wnEAPDXyfF4LZOaYK/DxEl6iIfLyyAHCc9O0=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=TACCm9MWfbzgJIO2B2H6T5DQ4/o/U1dJsGvwQ4I2hd3E6QAIZ/2976Ah3DshlYef/ KtEEbbkO2dWSabCmYEDvF1EUE9p7YcHqMfYx3UDpqTtPU/DlT+TAPkP1gf9ZMITt9s EMCsCFXJ4LDsuDmzY0Wl5JmLkCwVy/CF5CAM6BLc=
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:38:48 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Stephen Farrell , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------eCgEwFYBEvaAto605bsvmnLw"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:39:05 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------eCgEwFYBEvaAto605bsvmnLw
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------agLsP1jknhm0BIi9o6OfZDWI";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Stephen Farrell ,
 "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov
 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------agLsP1jknhm0BIi9o6OfZDWI
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RkKgv8aQkxgs1Nq0lRiqOFNm"

--------------RkKgv8aQkxgs1Nq0lRiqOFNm
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------RkKgv8aQkxgs1Nq0lRiqOFNm
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------RkKgv8aQkxgs1Nq0lRiqOFNm--


--------------agLsP1jknhm0BIi9o6OfZDWI--

--------------eCgEwFYBEvaAto605bsvmnLw
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF4EvkFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejO0
qQf9EbEWtU5MKZlvrelSTZ9i2oD4xC63hY1/RQL75yeV7MXIbgpPu0bLj/IeYkSXdKO9Z8Ys/JNo
wQqvAgEDta+x3NDxhv0na8y5cIPqqDtJeKGucxpIudRVpuMejwUfwkNCb5dKUeNZrx94oHgutWEC
mAeFgOUAKwFxZtX4rMeWa0rx16AsDr+KFlCWZITzWCQyBBbJauMUvD+jXecVxurv1E5jIlDsZrVr
5pkkI7WQNRN6JzFsOAOX0Gv+72TYbICrkLIxicQ/Ucy6O8oFvXnYAh3FavpVfSbm4IJW8QyAOOFF
eECi/yhhCOOP2eF/EGNc5saYsprwCOe5gA/GrOfrug==
=B1Dz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------eCgEwFYBEvaAto605bsvmnLw--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 07:54:10 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192023A1233; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AlgjKSrTgf1s; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80121.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E59AA3A1232; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:54:03 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=KPrC5hcZHaSb83y3SmSwEAX8CyU6HMNf3iEN7XaGGI9X8X5+QO6YsJ7rNLo9oeUszgWqIatWHJy+LmoQ0E0yaUXkq6hYIfYf/UgRVSSdikaDzQgU1EIOFv9nqBcZuSR703aaiwWqIAmNSNyq9PUbfQbQCU4xbhEepugrlIrbFsDEPNPJJUhLfcQHkAbC6OFSjCWig3dA5CEpK/b7DyoDIO29xmCVt3DOLepysXs+YgDjwJ/X751P4w1EbU8flGTiwSnW2wRrfSxDFPggrrHD4gLzrrPPdju+MRImq+qVIub/VX6qI1t1XNd+LmS5QhaV6y/P9GMGLoVA6llcHDEXTQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=Ocrz03w08T54mQiTRURoGrpfyEDn4oKjaHhl8bNYb4U=; b=XqOKANGBprEE0F8akiZoTOwLpdye9tDJR04YHDNUzBxFZ/cpAECbBK/V5AQ9agZMTnApzQYRAQcottWU/xMWTGpa6HGvOiFyPTP0SlYFtjmSUYs8hrQ+8gw54eI2ptOET0yMFDwne/w2B8gm5Q32O+p6bxgSyxdxNMsshDonFgPxGjgMmCxMMHnToUqbyQcwgvfg5EpEkPQ6GbKgnkYweOJzEdwSbR7n2w2i8Ro5xNaBMPzWYzmkwM8gniMCxTVOUY7eBG5RIWJJBmJyj/xtSQaMkgMmRGnCklP3nKGrQDSdrLicMLpK3blWJUGsIDaLxv9U5C96ylHjGRYlx6yo0A==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Ocrz03w08T54mQiTRURoGrpfyEDn4oKjaHhl8bNYb4U=; b=gvD1UdkietyjWtLnWZA0CjMl87yLBxORZ3DsPJBSqwP49stvIk6OZJMg+8CGXM5EP5+XgI76HUY6W4nsguqaXHtIMwZS3ry1NfZrpQB1hCTep1ZPaYZ5Y+t9Ckzs6Q61PYMGbdueDXpyYsrdR8QUzeMVM8GoTjgoIsEEOoyAfNYpS+o8OfTM0DFbLReBuhReEAKRs4fahOFNVSNeB57w+w5nCZl4n9ES6DoHoHKKW/5tcBCQw7b9Go15JGiZx26fCQ93ZSst/ucwvyUP0rrPZqLgRLeTGMeHCbgJBDPma7tNg5wH5yemZbIBKAVzwrdrt/AydjarRLLnFzVnWcqE1w==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB4121.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:4f::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.20; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:53:58 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4628.020; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:53:58 +0000
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:53:56 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yawIPGCyrdNJ0KPEmfRTsu2CKRf0YEZUE"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0301CA0073.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:30::20) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:e310:199a:aca5:e5d4] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:e310:199a:aca5:e5d4) by DB6PR0301CA0073.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:30::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.16 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:53:58 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6a24360a-3105-4f09-5470-08d9989070c8
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB4121:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:7219;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(8936002)(83380400001)(54906003)(21480400003)(66556008)(786003)(66574015)(33964004)(38100700002)(36756003)(53546011)(2616005)(8676002)(66946007)(31686004)(44832011)(110136005)(66476007)(186003)(316002)(4326008)(6486002)(5660300002)(508600001)(86362001)(31696002)(235185007)(2906002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?T0VqNWIvL1pYWVVKM01yRm41ZDhWckZ0SHE5SURkQ2tBZnl3d2xhN2pSWXZV?= =?utf-8?B?dTkySC9BWXpXRkdNdVBZK2N0QkF1UjZIS1p3UnltNFFCWElscmtTTDhTY2FV?= =?utf-8?B?VVZtdHVHTlhmSzQxRWhXN0lpM0ZyZEdKT25kZjh0V0gyVWtBSzZnN3o3NFZh?= =?utf-8?B?T1NIUHVHMkxpSlBnVE1BQUkrelNDcHJNblU0bXY3ZTNGMWhYZFovVHBQS1Vm?= =?utf-8?B?QWFoRTc5QUh1b2NxYjBXNEtNNHBFbHlyTTJnVXRkR1hlWTBLeHBiejZiTkds?= =?utf-8?B?S3lKdi9JYTZHRHkxbzVONkRKTkgrdzhRcVJGRXE4eThheWM1YXJPaENjS0gw?= =?utf-8?B?MmMyZkMrYVAvUGNOeDlzcnRiTGhCSC9qNUtLUTN6UTh6TU0wRE82NEVSVXZQ?= =?utf-8?B?WmNCdjlRM2Yraks5ZjNYYXhEbnlqd2pIR2FySFh3MGRYVmcyZVZscng0SkV4?= =?utf-8?B?L2NMN0ZFOVZuNmpzTVhSRldGU3ZUZFZmQVJidSthQU5UNVBCY0VMUHZKTC9x?= =?utf-8?B?SzdOdW4wRE16VGZiVU5DVjhJLzliYlM5OFUrMHFYaVRBZzVDWVBKcGJVVWxM?= =?utf-8?B?ZjE3OHI2eFg0NDFXb2tuYis3N2czN2YvZnFiclU1eEFINWlVaEs4ODk4Rm0y?= =?utf-8?B?VUpNSDFmeHJKREtselV1WGZDbHYzZC9oZkJ0b1lCRDcrcmNUc2tLdGxZUjhk?= =?utf-8?B?Y3U4RTJ0RlBscy84RkJ4Z3Nnd281ZEpuRHRKNEl4bDlmbVVxZktDM0NKd3BD?= =?utf-8?B?aEY4ZFNZc1V4dVA4Q3NyT0VxbVVhSDhMeWFTSzlSTmJ1WGx0RE1NOVoxakY0?= =?utf-8?B?ZGhVRUhPUUFzTmx4UGx3bGZ4N2Q0VDh0ZFdSZVpTMTJpL2JHNmpRckVFcWNq?= =?utf-8?B?MkZ6V1lhTHlkSGJ4R0NvcTBoNlMxNWc4Z2E2WDNvSnJVREdxYnA3YlFWOThM?= =?utf-8?B?a0FZTmlSdk5JMm4vSlRlbGs4aFN5SUVpTHRMWTFydnUzcmZIVjgwZ1N1TTFy?= =?utf-8?B?VnVUbldwR09RNEtSd2RUMUlxQ29KOS8yWTd6Y1lTY0pmY0dsTlhQTHVUVFcx?= =?utf-8?B?R1lQV3M0a0d4WmhEcXpvcER6UFBuODhkdzUvUnp2TGN0dW41ODBmdHZIRTNM?= =?utf-8?B?MDdSZ3ZERjNlbWZxelZkWHIxUzdwalQ5ZlFCMjJSZ0wrWmVqeUV1QXB6cTBm?= =?utf-8?B?K2g1akpFTmlGb0tKYklvVjhwd1hMVFBwUUZKc25nd3EzZWpNK2ZhT1g4Z1pj?= =?utf-8?B?UjFreEFjWFpJNkUyVjA3MlJzell4U1htWW5tdEZ5RjMxVHRVUFdmdGU0UW9F?= =?utf-8?B?cVVLTGU4VS9ZL01NaSthMml1Q1ZDNStJTm9uak5YaWJ2bzdNSlJhWVRSdTYr?= =?utf-8?B?amtLU2NKQThXaGNZRzdrRW4zRXFqSDE3aGlkR3pDUkNYYy9UQ2xITlVBU3pY?= =?utf-8?B?elc0c1VvVlN2ck5wTTR4bGVxVlZTeHlmTk1PQ3BKMHFRQW5HTlR5WEU3Vzlu?= =?utf-8?B?dnVNKzFBK1dkR3RPOERaMUFHRUxOcllobTQ3b0dnT2lnSXNpM0plSDcvL2Q4?= =?utf-8?B?VWNlaWwzcFhqQkZQc2poQ3RhOEdwdEZtdVZ2Z1RBMzlrUXNVcmZsR1hKV3Z6?= =?utf-8?B?ZVo5d2dXNnZUc3pBa09sc1pmZ0dUK0U1WjNxdFk3ZDUwZFUwK1UzMXRmbWQ4?= =?utf-8?B?UzdiMmlGOGkwNWxJUkQreGlGV0dmZU5HSjRUdWREQmZrRnd3UEk0ekZTcDlu?= =?utf-8?B?dGxtSE96TERkZUNQUFgxcUI1cjJlbENzQk54VWh5c0k3QS9Mck1HR29pRVQ0?= =?utf-8?B?OHk0WndleWdsVUJWNmFwOEkxNHRIaVhUYWhpMkJiZXdkSm5JdFk2N0s1MlU1?= =?utf-8?B?VDQ0UlM2bFFGd0VxWi9PMEdXdHBKOFQzVjR6V1JnMVNHRWQ0WjQxazZrRVB3?= =?utf-8?B?aVkxKzVHNWdPYXRvWFdpWDVRWjhuNDJ2M2NnVCs4bzF2K3NWZXJjSER4SjlE?= =?utf-8?B?YlpuTTdPRUJadGVyVTMwUklWMlR3YW45R05Jc2xMdXNxOW1aRndGZjhIQUhr?= =?utf-8?B?SjFOZjVFNjVDaFJyL25Tb0NYOU41d05lMjg1S1hlVXJQN0h5N3VDRkJPeG9m?= =?utf-8?B?eFkyUVV4VDlTQmV4cGtPTENNdTdIL3REVzh4eU15dTdmdEh4R3BJb1IvcDNk?= =?utf-8?Q?NKz44Chqm1LcRJAN298Xjp/7q5KhBjGD6l1fWu+RMmwl?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6a24360a-3105-4f09-5470-08d9989070c8
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2021 14:53:58.5934 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: AjfIcula4mGG+dsIPnvGm3ZPy4SKOyL/3eIGtZT0qFHq0UHd8Yzy+wj6ad3DXlnL
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB4121
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:54:09 -0000

--yawIPGCyrdNJ0KPEmfRTsu2CKRf0YEZUE
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="odOMcorxPAqeU367XF2hgBMnp1FjNdlEv";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov
 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--odOMcorxPAqeU367XF2hgBMnp1FjNdlEv
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------21017D537B13F9EC7743798E"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------21017D537B13F9EC7743798E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 26/10/2021 15:38, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>=20
> Thank you.=C2=A0 I have two questions for you below:

Fair questions. I didn't propose any though as
I've not been active in the discussion for a
few months, but since you ask...

(BTW, I'd be fine if someone else wanted to start
over proposing text rather than propose mods to
mine below.)

>=20
> On 26.10.21 16:34, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now read
>> the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussion.
>> I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by it, but
>> I don't object.
>>
>> A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't recall
>> being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):
>>
>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
>> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
>> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation
>> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
>> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as
>> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a
>> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
>> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
>> may be best placed to start that.
>=20
> Do you have some proposed text to start with?

Add to 1st para of intro, before last sentence,
just after "1969. ":

"The RFC series therefore has significant heritage
that seems to have overall been to the benefit of
the Internet. The RSWG should therefore also consider
the preservation and propagation of that heritage as
a goal as it considers process evolution."

>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"
>> authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok
>> as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think
>> it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that the
>> LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 process,
>> i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community
>> currently want.
>=20
> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to see?

Somewhere, don't care where:

"While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various
administrative actions related to the RFC series and the
IETF more generally, the LLC holds that position thanks
to community consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not
scoped to consider changes to the LLC's authority, such
changes are within the gift of the IETF community, albeit
constituted differently from the RSWG (e.g. in some
iasa2-like WG [ref])."

I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully
you get the gist,

Cheers,
S.


>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20

--------------21017D537B13F9EC7743798E
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------21017D537B13F9EC7743798E--

--odOMcorxPAqeU367XF2hgBMnp1FjNdlEv--

--yawIPGCyrdNJ0KPEmfRTsu2CKRf0YEZUE
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=nT2S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--yawIPGCyrdNJ0KPEmfRTsu2CKRf0YEZUE--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 09:03:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028A43A142F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rt6OKgJ1VHxX for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 09:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 392E43A142B for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 09:03:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19QG3Wj4595371 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:03:32 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635264213; bh=UJoi9c06pNaXa+YtC3NNsYqMv0JOIc4ik4mTQE2svmc=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Dhiuxn983vJyv5+x6DvC/+eG5acjjBJNElOHxDeJWRJol3sTuBwB65BcIQlazU3or gCFyjUtOhUijy2G9SRErdlypYittPVUrBE1x/F7e9VwvgQcRZvv9SnuHLqWj0Dd5+W tzkbgw/W2/Ii9AZIyA3ZSsizsgT9ufeNqmsuBpvA=
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:03:31 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ro4evc6Oj2VP0caMR2pHP0R1"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:03:50 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------ro4evc6Oj2VP0caMR2pHP0R1
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------VwM76SoiPq380vDWkKpkCSKr";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org,
 Mark Nottingham 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>

--------------VwM76SoiPq380vDWkKpkCSKr
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DLQXtT7X6iNUqdDH9M0NJCIT"

--------------DLQXtT7X6iNUqdDH9M0NJCIT
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------IdXQ7wFNxuXymrGXIZlvO7Tl"

--------------IdXQ7wFNxuXymrGXIZlvO7Tl
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

DQpPbiAyNi4xMC4yMSAwNToxNiwgTWFydGluIFRob21zb24gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiAyKSBTZWN0
aW9uIDQuMiBzZWVtcyB0byBwdXQgdGhlIFhNTCBmb3JtYXQgdW5kZXIgdGhlIGV4Y2x1c2l2
ZSBjb250cm9sDQo+PiBvZiB0aGUgUlBDLiBJcyB0aGF0IHJlYWxseSBvdXIgaW50ZW50PyBM
aWtld2lzZSBmb3IgdGhlICdyZWFkYWJpbGl0eQ0KPj4gYW5kIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBvZiBS
RkNzJy4NCj4gSSBkaWRuJ3QgcmVhZCB0aGF0IHRleHQgaW4gdGhhdCB3YXksIGJ1dCBpbiBs
b29raW5nIGFnYWluLCBpdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBjbGVhcmVyLg0KDQpBZ2FpbiwgbXkgZmF2b3Jp
dGUgcXVlc3Rpb246IGRvIHlvdSBoYXZlIGEgcHJlZmVycmVkIGNvcnJlY3Rpb24/DQoNCkVs
aW90DQoNCg==
--------------IdXQ7wFNxuXymrGXIZlvO7Tl
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    


    

    
On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson
      wrote:

    

    
=

      

        
2) Section 4.2 seems to pu=
t the XML format under the exclusive control=20
of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the 'readability=20
and presentation of RFCs'.


      

      
I didn't read that text in t=
hat way, but in looking again, it could be clearer.

    

    
Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction?
    
Eliot

    

  

--------------IdXQ7wFNxuXymrGXIZlvO7Tl--

--------------DLQXtT7X6iNUqdDH9M0NJCIT
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------DLQXtT7X6iNUqdDH9M0NJCIT--


--------------VwM76SoiPq380vDWkKpkCSKr--

--------------ro4evc6Oj2VP0caMR2pHP0R1
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF4JtMFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPl
6gf9GDHfTVA0hzh7I61GSV6NM8PPk7ylFs44wG/zYs10FhekCXpFwSL6VFQ9f+DUzLkhxmD2um14
A/qHotbAo53fYzuKcA4NRJ+LXvUkLeRM8LsdZ6SM3SVcCrPgr8FHtPYJ7oHpt1VTkKBxVyg0d2X/
dHRbf2KaXlXBDs2el1Pa20KcL58SJKOr9ZuHJLoBAxGGOCAMSFPxq7oznJyENNSHkCEEG+5q/1+T
zFEDg83QbsBQhk8uijjM948B2XyO0ZptJCeoJbenM6ugvbN0OauYMyyZLbAqiyurT4dJH/tfKF4b
5/QpPuqL07MYPMb/nidqSuO/GGCwPBVHJlRr1pOJmw==
=Vde8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------ro4evc6Oj2VP0caMR2pHP0R1--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 11:39:37 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358D33A16BB; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITUtvk5KWN12; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A21C3A16B6; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A19241B816B; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yGlAl5uDB86m; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DF4F41274CD; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 07:39:26 +1300
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
To: Stephen Farrell 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:39:36 -0000

Stephen

>=20
> - Lastly, a question: has anyone asked people who've held
> the role of RSE (or acting RSE), or significant folks from
> the RPC, if there's anything falling between the cracks?
> (I.e. not whether or not they like the draft just whether
> something's being missed.) I think an explicit check like
> that might be useful, and it could be those people might
> otherwise be reticent to send a full review to the list.
> I'd be fine if the chairs just did this off-list and brought
> any interesting results to the list, so this is more a
> request to the programme chairs really.

Yes, the RPC and Temporary RFC Series Manager have been carefully =
watching this list and the document edits and I've been checking in with =
them regularly to make sure that everything is covered and that they =
have made their views known.

Jay

>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Tue Oct 26 11:39:43 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA0A3A16C8; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N06IEmYHjD3v; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3FE13A15EC; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FF646CC809; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YbFq8UfWeS5F; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87F5E41274CD; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:39:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Message-Id: <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BE03CDEE-51EF-4059-ADFE-5DA1A9A0A4D4"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 07:39:32 +1300
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
To: Stephen Farrell 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:39:40 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_BE03CDEE-51EF-4059-ADFE-5DA1A9A0A4D4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8



> On 27/10/2021, at 3:53 AM, Stephen Farrell  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"
>>> authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok
>>> as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think
>>> it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that the
>>> LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 process,
>>> i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community
>>> currently want.
>> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to see?
>=20
> Somewhere, don't care where:
>=20
> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various
> administrative actions related to the RFC series and the
> IETF more generally, the LLC holds that position thanks
> to community consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not
> scoped to consider changes to the LLC's authority, such
> changes are within the gift of the IETF community, albeit
> constituted differently from the RSWG (e.g. in some
> iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>=20
> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully
> you get the gist,

You haven=E2=80=99t actually explained why this text is needed.=20

This is certainly a general qualifier on the authority of the LLC, but =
as you've pointed out in your proposed text there isn=E2=80=99t anywhere =
in this new model where the RSWG/RSAB can override the LLC or set new =
rules for the LLC so adding this qualifier doesn=E2=80=99t have any =
practical purpose for this draft.   There are plenty of statements of =
fact from other RFCs that aren=E2=80=99t in this I-D and arbitrarily =
adding some is in my view bad policy writing and just creates problems =
further down when the source of the facts needs to change.

Jay

>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Eliot
> 

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_BE03CDEE-51EF-4059-ADFE-5DA1A9A0A4D4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On 27/10/2021, at 3:53 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:



- =
In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"
authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok
as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think
it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that =
the
LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 =
process,
i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) =
community
currently want.
Again, =
could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to see?

Somewhere, don't care where:

"While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for =
various
administrative =
actions related to the RFC series and the
IETF more generally, the LLC holds that position =
thanks
to community =
consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not
scoped to consider changes to the LLC's authority, =
such
changes are =
within the gift of the IETF community, albeit
constituted differently from the =
RSWG (e.g. in some
iasa2-like WG [ref])."

I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully
you get the gist,

You =
haven=E2=80=99t actually explained why this text is =
needed. 

This is certainly =
a general qualifier on the authority of the LLC, but as you've pointed =
out in your proposed text there isn=E2=80=99t anywhere in this new model =
where the RSWG/RSAB can override the LLC or set new rules for the LLC so =
adding this qualifier doesn=E2=80=99t have any practical purpose for =
this draft.   There are plenty of statements of fact from other =
RFCs that aren=E2=80=99t in this I-D and arbitrarily adding some is in =
my view bad policy writing and just creates problems further down when =
the source of the facts needs to change.

Jay


Cheers,
S.


Thanks,
Eliot
<OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B17=
2BEA.asc>



-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_BE03CDEE-51EF-4059-ADFE-5DA1A9A0A4D4--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 12:19:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57CF3A1757; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S-Mr2QGo10-A; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70110.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A47FB3A173E; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=FYy4Iq4BmR9nlq2cqPxxh1PqTF7bs+vIAMmMK48IBqf2xAQHVgsA5Ks5l/DiAilV/ocvH8xIR0HqpwW6csrJapWo5eirx+u0q9oYwCsjSTYDJnjXFXVHAzZKa3MHKb5Hx5ThCxKk8l/Zdfy973Y7h+Lqh/SOeBwXGCifAmE9faTMrHJia10asR8yYHXhkvYpFxW1MwqCeCuQgebTZ7x0MdMK4w4sO+pCQgeBK3jdNNwIQPuPAP/e0B7LxTYqyDADhtQ/ALbTQHi6hROOQOTM2Hd/5UhJfg7Jz94S+xmCEDXqcsWSnaSLExWWVrjtfT5vHj3AK2TkfNUR5r7UhnlN8w==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=VBGm1U90aUV4XmBXE0cIG2roC0hnrecpxfZvLPaWFQE=; b=nrltNNog901YGHTtqN5vj1UewfzULS0lIJ6B2+5OAEvHl8+z7uuS0S735M9rTEO1etpzaMUIefKe9simYuUmRhXwZ9YUrE0iols7HqEX78vlMGiitaOYWWeirCFGsdBk/f7VqUgF2zz8bZuberDGVGGrNRo++TkEXxeIzDJtyN0blX6vgrZxmWsLLtsPsdxHKjVAU2th4bllkCkBxu0Unqz3KyALo+aLCTrTAv8rBnXsvAowRkpr85wbf6rW1TU2rraTE4y4hu2nO5ixNIV2MZTyDVz+/E8ZX1Oct7SyKF9jLHDr4B3P9CjS5fOOsbkJY1rZDhJYN+RUgAWidzI3NA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VBGm1U90aUV4XmBXE0cIG2roC0hnrecpxfZvLPaWFQE=; b=BQs/zlaZagpKAp0UIVUeaLm0OgK1yM+HHWA+4Zjm/fsDkY2tSNdTSyfaGnnnEzCZwLy8cmq2WQcPrvy6YomZNRIEUYg3gK1YxMIMVK2xAjJ+GJJg3wJDh+/Zb/Ee2CTSLvSm66Z4BgaxTE3/rbc/hpmyMq/jXSAnNEb+eiVOhZiuVsycxB8ngdwBPNnEXl+W98+9UY++C5gHc0xrKkoKGEI7Pr4VM4iPBbgkdglUtTQG6bcw/QIi1h2RkWcJyvsX1WNLqoWC0Q/xpnzvTAFLHHPEXhkB1MP1WGIQi3aNoG0SGNsZsl8krSDlCNJAr2CqGocNuI186pRObPm+WLUxbw==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB8PR02MB5754.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:117::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.16; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:18:45 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4628.020; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:18:45 +0000
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:18:43 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gEbS1IMVRMdPlKe6qyq6bCemiZmF1U4fn"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB3PR08CA0010.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8::23) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB3PR08CA0010.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.22 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:18:44 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 33db2c4d-6a75-4011-5dc0-08d998b56ded
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB8PR02MB5754:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:2958;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(508600001)(6916009)(26005)(5660300002)(66946007)(8676002)(235185007)(66574015)(36756003)(16576012)(186003)(786003)(38100700002)(31686004)(83380400001)(44832011)(33964004)(54906003)(956004)(86362001)(31696002)(8936002)(66476007)(66556008)(53546011)(2906002)(316002)(2616005)(21480400003)(4326008)(6486002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?bUhqNWtoYmRmcUtDMFZTdVZXMzFVa1lJTmt2NXVTNkx0L2lTbklrNzhKWXkz?= =?utf-8?B?cHdxekN6aE5hemlFS3dCS0w0enRPTC94enNzeWJtTlZCTzFWaDlFTm9Jcmp1?= =?utf-8?B?VW9TUXJwQlJIR1lldjIvNGtkRURrUmRJUTdJL2xhNVA2S01ZY1JOUUpwbVRz?= =?utf-8?B?blZETkdGd0NRbXpMSnhCWm5DYzB0SDYybEpYMnRYdnlRdmQ5Sm5NSnh4T0xL?= =?utf-8?B?RjZBWThKUExGY3o5c1Zaa0pNSXVRV2JjRGJuU21OWVZvQlhxZ0Fxb245Y0Vu?= =?utf-8?B?aHU5VjZzM0RtbXJ0bUhyakJrcXBvQ1o3dHFic2xuMWFtOEUyZmtLNjhvRElj?= =?utf-8?B?NXRxOW9ZWXlmcmRYSWo1bkZHdHR6MGZqRnZvYU1NSTJXeEN0K25ndXJJUThP?= =?utf-8?B?UVo0dEJqOGEzYXJ4WmJUYVBQWTZReFRlaWtWOFdPdmVuK3plY1BhZC9CTmJk?= =?utf-8?B?OWVmQ0xGeElVYVRRaDBvTmM4eWJNMk5TSFFpWkdQakFNUkhoSU9BUk9sejd6?= =?utf-8?B?Nmk2Mi9EeE52Nkc1UTdMaFprTDZLcnp2WGl6RHArTTFoTkt0bHBSREFLalJ2?= =?utf-8?B?SUVmOU41NW0vMmw4V2NjdWIvNzB1TnpUMmVDSjY5eHh3Zkk4Z2ZnL1A3WmVS?= =?utf-8?B?cVh5UXNGb3ZsTjAvT0srbnpNY0RXaGkvelB1dVNpYWJyWGN1VEpsWitIZzZ0?= =?utf-8?B?aU1BTGpCbGcrOWN0dWIyYWhQUkIxQlBXVnY1QW14WW5vcjRpR0dUSFpQR2h6?= =?utf-8?B?MTkyWkx3VDZtWFR1MHhEUDU3NXp6NjVaYkZBekQ3ckpMMUxBN2RmSllmMkhV?= =?utf-8?B?SVVKSXFnYjgvR0luMmRvMDh4VVU3aW1XMDVqcnYrZUllRENhU0NBWUlOR3BG?= =?utf-8?B?WForQXhKbW1DN1lPR3YrbzNqemx4Mm1ISFAwd2NlY3QvYTEyY09qTk5vWmRn?= =?utf-8?B?U0FWS1JVc01sNHhGeG50aUY2U3dpTDc1Qnd5c3NMVS9SbC9aRk16UkpCUmM2?= =?utf-8?B?Y0J1U1oyZThwOC9VdDZuZGJvcjI1UmFaOTlISCtaN1NCS2ZJL2IySE5PcEp4?= =?utf-8?B?dGFEZnFycm15VG9FYjB2Q3FGcFpielQwOUdTZUVmNzA3Y0ZZTEdYalAzQ24r?= =?utf-8?B?VjlGSU1VcWFjTWFrejhsWGVGWXpoVjcxRklmL0tVMUlUK29EanlhTjZtckdI?= =?utf-8?B?STJneno0QWJwdGIyM1pIWUMrTVk0NnNpZ0NqbXVIOUhMb1ovVSs5ODlvOTJW?= =?utf-8?B?VVgxOVUxOVk4Z3k5T2kvOEVBem5qeGRmczNrMEYwbmhIeFB0VFB4Y0N6cG9I?= =?utf-8?B?WmVPZk00UkVYN1JGeGdZczZ0UVVTRWZwSzdHZnVxT3ZIZUI2c3Y4UnQybWp5?= =?utf-8?B?cWkxNkw0WVc0SVU5WlVzeU1vWlBDMnFOaEhZbTJXU1VCeGswZ2xZN1JLWUo4?= =?utf-8?B?ckk0eTlYNitQMHhUSGVmbVQycmNmWG5JdW82bmEzOGlsZ1MzZnFIWTJZR0hY?= =?utf-8?B?RGF1azlaZHI1R3lIM3B0VkhWdmJiMkdLSzdTblpGcGxSMWljOFFzTSt5L05H?= =?utf-8?B?bHNqYXhObU53TkNwampObG9RejljdUNEMXNOUFBoNjBCNHdkQ2VnaVFsaVpw?= =?utf-8?B?WVo4Q08xbFZ1VTV1d09tMlhNTDl1QmQ4UU9NaGVlQkx0a290dWQ1UWlBb2JZ?= =?utf-8?B?bzBscGkwdCtPYllsclhJenhNOFBxdC96dWVSZHpodmNVQmhWRk00NjIvMzRK?= =?utf-8?B?T215QnJUUW1LaXlhSjBqcGxWWGZFSHoydlFnczEzZE1aYjNETXNTNlozRndF?= =?utf-8?B?TEl3RzEyUksyRDVObnI3cEtEVnE1NFM0RDJ0eUNQNHYyL3dYR2dqNXltNThL?= =?utf-8?B?d3JkQ3pzZ0FRbmI4RzUyL0p6VE9SM0NYc0w1SjQzUVl5U1dJZHI3Ly9sbUR4?= =?utf-8?B?dEtBelF5KzFmaWhZSEVTalk3UHhEci9lRkZJYUVLQ1lCd2t1ZFVGak82SEV1?= =?utf-8?B?VHpkbnN3Ykk2S3Q5WGprd01DN29xOUZFRHoxNlhxdzd6WkxzY2d4bjNjdmVH?= =?utf-8?B?a3R2YW9Jc0x1VlYvZ05DTzVxZWRRY29lOGZuV0F0aXRnMnhxUUo5YXowYnE5?= =?utf-8?Q?jevg=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 33db2c4d-6a75-4011-5dc0-08d998b56ded
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2021 19:18:45.6806 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: rm9h/umTsSEcDdhnEdFyDjRok6AcPVIRQTGhg8MG0KrEsj+JKGGk4wjhJpT2roIU
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8PR02MB5754
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:19:03 -0000

--gEbS1IMVRMdPlKe6qyq6bCemiZmF1U4fn
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qqgc5LlA0dbbk3XbcEP6vNQDktE9X1o82";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends
 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>

--qqgc5LlA0dbbk3XbcEP6vNQDktE9X1o82
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------625ADD518616D488B9000A08"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------625ADD518616D488B9000A08
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 26/10/2021 19:39, Jay Daley wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 27/10/2021, at 3:53 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"=20
>>>> authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok as
>>>> they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think it'd be
>>>> better if there were a statement somewhere that the LLC only
>>>> has that position because of the iasa2 process, i.e., because
>>>> that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community currently want.
>>> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to
>>> see?
>>=20
>> Somewhere, don't care where:
>>=20
>> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various=20
>> administrative actions related to the RFC series and the IETF more
>> generally, the LLC holds that position thanks to community
>> consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not scoped to consider
>> changes to the LLC's authority, such changes are within the gift of
>> the IETF community, albeit constituted differently from the RSWG
>> (e.g. in some iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>>=20
>> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully you get the
>> gist,
>=20
> You haven=E2=80=99t actually explained why this text is needed.
>=20
> This is certainly a general qualifier on the authority of the LLC,
> but as you've pointed out in your proposed text there isn=E2=80=99t any=
where
> in this new model where the RSWG/RSAB can override the LLC or set new
> rules for the LLC so adding this qualifier doesn=E2=80=99t have any pra=
ctical
> purpose for this draft.   There are plenty of statements of fact from
> other RFCs that aren=E2=80=99t in this I-D and arbitrarily adding some =
is in
> my view bad policy writing and just creates problems further down
> when the source of the facts needs to change.

Sure, that's arguable, but if one accepts that then there'd
be no occurrences of the word "ultimate" in the draft, don't
you agree?

IMO the draft could give the wrong impression as to which is
the dog and which the tail, esp for readers unfamiliar with
the history (which'd be most of the few readers), so I think
in this case that kind of added text would be a worthwhile
addition.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> Jay
>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers, S.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Thanks, Eliot
>> 
>=20

--------------625ADD518616D488B9000A08
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------625ADD518616D488B9000A08--

--qqgc5LlA0dbbk3XbcEP6vNQDktE9X1o82--

--gEbS1IMVRMdPlKe6qyq6bCemiZmF1U4fn
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=apOe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--gEbS1IMVRMdPlKe6qyq6bCemiZmF1U4fn--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 12:20:38 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A595C3A1738; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MGcxcThT48Qg; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70114.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4C5E3A1744; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=LMrzCpMY3CiZ9N4KDAmy3JeMCF+ZoUkBIgx3VP7bmjE7kydStLPJlOzsQ9cRgigIGra8gTSh4JogRoVXKxGvZ4GrVmmLr+/21LIC53o9yxZApF9tCNl3iO5ONvedA0ILOuXOkPi0NsyOiXEkN35GgU2iJsZ1ehNG+EB0BXejMCcYflI9oDsEoKSI4i+nUSh4dGeHs3203l2DQFTAn301k4J8xG9FmNPN/sLmLNuBtgPuHrLgJr93Bn9zr5uGUsuQinbA4E1o+Pf2J11aT5pERqaGC5YgNGpXZDDTzZ44CBC97AOTF7t05c4YgqMdk4tqs7H23bGezXP1IculqlfcJQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=Z3T9Ev46EPyPQg1k6UPTqmpwiEj6sGGBKMmadqfCkbw=; b=FxikL61W6sevd/FAXI0ukDPVgGUDmWC5kCILHkJTBWVS8f+Sqe5R1FKoeYJl+JVEmDr+07s752JzsrvWRWENk6rP6TZppPE5xqpKCkFeQeNUZrRlz7A5UlmzRwdirtEtnvxC8HB+LGZns6c8qZU166x0BMDkJUHqR1RIDNAstR95DzaWBDkatHKAR4mwMj8iURfAYuveRfNfnTHpc25xfvkKVN6sscHGNAvJjDuryfoPxvJr3bDqwZCUjq7oUpVr8s+Wm5r6WtOIqx65dL1jMl+BEYAv+hthQZbRFok3qpYiqDo/cQ1j+/UfKcMIY9mDbqOCP4fropXhuxN8v0drkQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Z3T9Ev46EPyPQg1k6UPTqmpwiEj6sGGBKMmadqfCkbw=; b=GCGMb81hgS5xx2ggq6F7ydSdVF1g2GZIp9RnKEjDs7subqqwON8WSNl2MZOMPv/lOnEKgMXCVH/rBpt1WjQHVQAUL1qDADMbTJRXRWI4HPeKHci/KgYCkSQ8PVWOne42pV6tSPh9Woui5egvDYYVG3CVZE7TO9k6GqK0Szx+rS6wNpzDe6nmRBd32uOTpGj8uBxFEDLbIGVkuyPz4VjUUUwBkLig//1ZsrJed5Wi+eb9w13W9aQIAL4ic7GttPX/SzGQ8rUQYEPZkt1cU0TXJ6kExhw0HA9TaacGNvuHF8RYQ5QV2xp0VBo8xhW8W/klzZ16XENJciwXgPtrUjF0kg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB8PR02MB5754.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:117::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.16; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:20:28 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4628.020; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:20:28 +0000
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:20:25 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rrMfNXadZdd5BL9E6lYQTq8vE8KQVCse7"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DU2P251CA0005.EURP251.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:230::34) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DU2P251CA0005.EURP251.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:230::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.22 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:20:28 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 498d6b33-8d9c-486d-79c0-08d998b5ab7c
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB8PR02MB5754:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:639;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(508600001)(6916009)(26005)(5660300002)(66946007)(8676002)(235185007)(66574015)(36756003)(16576012)(186003)(786003)(38100700002)(31686004)(83380400001)(44832011)(33964004)(54906003)(956004)(86362001)(31696002)(8936002)(66476007)(66556008)(53546011)(2906002)(316002)(2616005)(6666004)(21480400003)(4326008)(6486002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?TFdKYW9Vc3J5VGRESUtlRExUTlBtU28xOWlqb0xtL1RVVUR0aHJnbHQyMUQ3?= =?utf-8?B?ZjBNQkQ5bHVvdDZ6QU1TZlRlZXZHL0ZIMVY1ZGUzRWRWTUdMRXN4RWFxYkNp?= =?utf-8?B?a3l0R3k5RjkyMWg3U2RFM0xsL2MvT1RiQy96WkFaUDA2cEpiSUV6SHpEeVNR?= =?utf-8?B?NkF0Q0dTZ0dSU3pETitiUkQ5ZkN4c25MdHRJZmRISHB1eTBFWmZJdmlQK2hO?= =?utf-8?B?WnIyU1o3UGNxdG03V2lLOVBuLzhQSnpNTCtTbVlBRnZXNnlBTEN2RnpaRjFh?= =?utf-8?B?Zy80OEVZU3NvSG5NeVBEOFl5M2tYcjdzcEFad0J3WUtUaUxRVHB6bGoveVk3?= =?utf-8?B?U2piVHVMbEFURVZJRUQ4WEczTzgzV0VKVXVxOE5MTHM5RGtVclBBamswOWtX?= =?utf-8?B?ZHo5ZENpeTVqZFVHOHpGS3Y5U2hvTnpWRFZvU2lqY3Rod1ljSmxaazk0UnN3?= =?utf-8?B?c1daZHZxaVBEVkg3VHlwZ1lMaUM3N0taZU8vdC94c1dVQmpXRWRhMVZOcVlD?= =?utf-8?B?UTJQbklBOExvL1hlaHhpeDhaQWhyNVdJYS9BcVNlQUk5bUVkSVE1Q1A3MXg2?= =?utf-8?B?Mnl3Z203VlM3elJjeTNhZ1lmVHJxMkF3enhacnhQZzQyRVd3K2RtSVlrcXNF?= =?utf-8?B?SGtxYWcyb3dLbkdxOTkxTXphTWtWQTJmU3U3NHNNdVd6Yitzb3ZVV2VtVWZl?= =?utf-8?B?QU9rRlpXQ1VGbG95bjdxQ3VXTEVWRU1SYVlmSE1iQzMrZDBJdWJvRUdXWXRG?= =?utf-8?B?R0dTY2FCNTZWT002Vm9JMUh0N2tvZktNdDgyZzNYOGd2NnRQOTRTTXF6ZEJR?= =?utf-8?B?NStMaFZYV1VBTDFpNHdmVE9JK3Mwd253UjIwR2U4TGpUMVBldGtLaUxzelF6?= =?utf-8?B?aEpsblFQRXlEZ1pGVVQ4NEs0RHEyRjZYaE9BenpKWTNDVHpMNjJubGZWRTlD?= =?utf-8?B?VjZ1bjI0QnRjM1Bxc0tKYnVscG5iK2pYcXFCalMzcmpDb1dTMFZTVWFpRW5T?= =?utf-8?B?dXZ2YlUxMFJEelFENjcvQ25XaFBreDlMSER3RFZTZHBaQTBZZnkycGZiN2Vq?= =?utf-8?B?b1FsVHorOG5jclhOdWMwNVpyQnMyNmJ2RFo3MjkzcnRvVjB5cWpoUWtGVGxz?= =?utf-8?B?ZWFIOElIYktEdWYvZ3lEbmFxOWNmWDJkbVA5dFlaZDlPbTd4UVZhaWxONVhX?= =?utf-8?B?dHV3Wit3QmMxUmtMSWhZdzlMaHNjZEl6OEJMdWZpU29ydy9TUEJCY2diREJk?= =?utf-8?B?Q0NFY001RzkvQWJQUERUUVNnTi85SktseGw5YzZOOWtxM3VZVjNYV3kyNWF1?= =?utf-8?B?c3NaaVptU3E1ekNWbUdacnZJNXpaMWtsV1VaSXViNWgrZVVYNzFTdm9WU282?= =?utf-8?B?ZndOSEtjZUR2WU9VbnQweWg0ODlHZnYrMW54c3ZwZjhEVWU3eUVlNTZ5N3JU?= =?utf-8?B?SGZnQ09VTnlEb0VCYis0OVlmOWEzMndxV2JmQ0pxeE5NbVE1bHRQc2pjRFJp?= =?utf-8?B?SEFQNlBnU0xoaUZheFdkd05CWEkvL3M3MHRkTUg5K0dYeUdRSWFOWHY0TTUw?= =?utf-8?B?RmxuVHM3RkIvRWUrTVcvdnZOUFhGMjNtN2JQSTBTMmE1NUVHZG4wN2Z1eXAw?= =?utf-8?B?cDlTRUtUK3BBV0VRekVubTQ4UDkyVjgzWTROOW5WOWcyTisycDJnUDNnR3Fy?= =?utf-8?B?eU9IKzN1cVd1TUV0RDJReEZ1dFU5ZUo0NUc2blloci9JNEtDTmxYdytpVzZO?= =?utf-8?B?azRNU0F2bUZXMmhjeWtVV25sMStUTUFvU3NlNXplSnJDUWhaRzRsdzdXdDNN?= =?utf-8?B?SnJnRXlJOHk3dCtNME14THhNSFN5QVFDcU8rLytzQUpwV0kyY2FvWDZZRlpw?= =?utf-8?B?dWowYnoxWWtFQkJML3hFbTJmUlR2emNxZFE2dUQ0THpYTHFpOUJTVlNlcGcy?= =?utf-8?B?VTV2VFNDUmUxUmtJcUF4UGZIV3ZFZVhsbWx2bDBtWE9ndmVyajJmdWhaV2RB?= =?utf-8?B?TGJQU3IvNUJGbklKdU9aMGg3a2xsd3NUdUx5cVhiTzFnMHJlZWFmQWdJbnRO?= =?utf-8?B?UkpMQ3hqWGd3clV5T3BCSW1GNC82UE5yeWg0MmxYT0cwYW5TakNablo0ZGpo?= =?utf-8?Q?xMXE=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 498d6b33-8d9c-486d-79c0-08d998b5ab7c
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2021 19:20:28.4399 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: +5ugUIOWjddRqm6dWVI6/b1l8kbnvyvvtqd/zsbWod61l5RJ9H3/TjvMSKF+CkhC
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8PR02MB5754
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:20:37 -0000

--rrMfNXadZdd5BL9E6lYQTq8vE8KQVCse7
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="sqEUPWgqdwF6xM9XyOpWW6AME7vGvCXLp";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--sqEUPWgqdwF6xM9XyOpWW6AME7vGvCXLp
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------75F8C44B6DC02C46D163EBE4"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------75F8C44B6DC02C46D163EBE4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 26/10/2021 19:39, Jay Daley wrote:
> Yes, the RPC and Temporary RFC Series Manager have been carefully
> watching this list and the document edits and I've been checking in
> with them regularly to make sure that everything is covered and that
> they have made their views known.
That's good thanks. Not quite the complete set, but good.

Cheers,
S.

--------------75F8C44B6DC02C46D163EBE4
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------75F8C44B6DC02C46D163EBE4--

--sqEUPWgqdwF6xM9XyOpWW6AME7vGvCXLp--

--rrMfNXadZdd5BL9E6lYQTq8vE8KQVCse7
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=aXTJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--rrMfNXadZdd5BL9E6lYQTq8vE8KQVCse7--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 13:06:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25643A1846; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TNe9AdrTZxNa; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27B263A184A; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id y1-20020a17090a134100b001a27a7e9c8dso2857607pjf.3;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eylI+x0OiUXcLftglMbP3mwjuvGa1Uk0LS1OFxK7Ewg=; b=lbt+pzipkH89VfsDVEYRZKgMf1l3HAaC0o/ZtqkkOy4f2PCmX7RRrfPDQYRYw7aaDN GWLQ4JMM0Sl26SwNcQ8tubZQfmGbpO7q3jVLn+t2+pl1keB+iWXRj6YhZhvrxGyd1tLm dvcrMi1bD9lDgefDD32bqnwtBrXKMEIAnIJjv5jtcUme1LypoBlaaKz/Y1B9r84HU8JN Obz7HZag7z+l7KKJo3zcuPGv1SvRH/4HI2SHdkcN7x3bwg49jQFCN1Rq2bm89FzsNe3n uYCkNC3q4lUJumo21oZY5V3YAiI3nVn0Xcy34jaS4D4+HWoQP7tyRR5mQP4aXjSpLyW6 09hg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eylI+x0OiUXcLftglMbP3mwjuvGa1Uk0LS1OFxK7Ewg=; b=eu1mTadVEmTpSDc8f+CLu1BOI8xZEboIHw1PTDe1z5uHUa8xZM4CghBTgcVdCXSHiR utWgvA1Yu+ZENQcD8XsLrq3ZylK3LNemwFpd0VoCrJkKn48WSzqX/MAFPYJj25XvC9NW bjOdlkBP3Em3B2RqUs/zney+jJl6CmB+mMXCyLeEsIkE9v/k1xvzVgV1nB5P4OPxiZnv PeqGDeH412TaNbzkOAfGqMLyxmxMaYOfLKbyUMLwugozG5jkpyu3KiEaWc+5VfivMcLL zfRNj7c/qAZd2kxlm1WxQC3n7O3fvIlBhsbQH7unqE6HvVvYhGow3oTa6ADssGsVzkFK J4HA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531sCdAH6tP8HaggKqZf7JGm10dyNinOTajgkBKa3bz0pXxcvZV/ Qr1mgOGzYtbNwoyOJELCuzY=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJ6MKU1RGOPegwhp6kOVLVXmg17i0cDrOlHjKyy8xYvCy4v4w0G0gGYITSwnK25e1Zal44FA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1b46:: with SMTP id nv6mr984133pjb.162.1635278800622;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p17sm9792368pfn.191.2021.10.26.13.06.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eliot Lear , Lars Eggert 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <08d5d7a9-2167-96f1-bc45-bf23c58ecee9@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 09:06:37 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <08d5d7a9-2167-96f1-bc45-bf23c58ecee9@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue #97 [**Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:06:44 -0000

On 26-Oct-21 23:43, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Thanks, Lars.=C2=A0 Just one note below:
>=20
> On 26.10.21 12:07, Lars Eggert wrote:
>> Hi,

=2E..
>>
>> 3-month timer restart?
>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/97
>=20
> People should discuss.


    *  Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
       be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to
       a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of
       the RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated
       above.

I suggest s/3 months/3 months after the first vacancy/

Rationale: to exclude gaming the system by triggering a succession of vac=
ancies.

    Brian



From nobody Tue Oct 26 14:44:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF313A18BA for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hir_Kuci5HHM for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82B203A15EB for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id k13so1134410ljj.12 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8v9LmxBQDgPdtX2Hnio3w9yJLUKtpGdzP1hNq1EMVkY=; b=g0vtKdhh51rpI3L9Uxh6mKSZ1ZtfMptOXkdbibokAXRND1o24tna0ZzKRC5/d8y/sc bwosWYs62PRK3Msuot7STifh/M6UniuW6gYYKoHpfBejtYhltHPjZs8rv0Zh/IzxDrXn pIUQtnS2rHaDUWZVh329xwUlgKH3gRInLDRjRPIjDU0royDP8dJ4XGLGaevhhPGpDnUy ShjLiU9TmLEcgJZUsXwtwmxXzLHICgkXqTASWEGPQdTQ4VhZKZZatB+bgKcvNkativvF Ocg2BtJB+gn1aZYgOyUZvgvkE0y6g/6WcUFHyJGY6fdapLy+iEKfGPD5b+Ji48e0K34b +V+A==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8v9LmxBQDgPdtX2Hnio3w9yJLUKtpGdzP1hNq1EMVkY=; b=gPgzNGA1riUjdMYK+LKmDKFqQQdZZSOd9N+GFrIO3Di6np+Tf2bU6TLQGI3hxZQCR2 osOmjupxwEr8QhZDqzRXzyUM5cH6tosnwgYtSnzVqcb7+M1waVZeCPr0PTAyBJjHsRQ4 TeMnx1v2VogBAxAgT0PSbzTk5tQXQHr5fKjPVDcBDQ5CwHDXuv3cN41JUPQJSLABoirG cwu+2srEFq7WJI16OIyHtLWW05OKmxSikjYLki4U4Sr6b3Ww3K0GmvDS2YnSehnGZ1Jd BMMuIoLQqlujarfGWDuXVI7cD9ldjuSwA96WIC99cDxayhxlRfQVOUpHI9GAcnYWquyh o4VA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531+z6PIPl7PRaoSiuUPB8+w0989vjR1m3R3+WtrDO8lcowSAjPR xo9YirZr5mF8Qo/TwdWGjI4fPJAlsfJ0qyYUnk5XNA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzljfQKpFRFcU8qmJbXhSNzTWTd2DtUoM1NFk8wqgHAyj/dXsPmR/BIYhw6Jsf2VgmU3iVyrsTzZds/MUXJCNA=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:889:: with SMTP id d9mr29591319ljq.198.1635284683823;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:44:43 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <08d5d7a9-2167-96f1-bc45-bf23c58ecee9@lear.ch> 
In-Reply-To: 
From: "StJohns, Michael" 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:44:33 -0400
Message-ID: 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: Brian Rosen , Eliot Lear ,  Internet Architecture Board , Lars Eggert ,  "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000afaf4e05cf4862d1"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #97 [**Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 21:44:54 -0000

--000000000000afaf4e05cf4862d1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 16:06 Brian E Carpenter 
wrote:

> On 26-Oct-21 23:43, Eliot Lear wrote:
> > Thanks, Lars.  Just one note below:
> >
> > On 26.10.21 12:07, Lars Eggert wrote:
> >> Hi,
>
> ...
> >>
> >> 3-month timer restart?
> >> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/97
> >
> > People should discuss.
>
>
>     *  Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall
>        be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to
>        a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of
>        the RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated
>        above.
>
> I suggest s/3 months/3 months after the first vacancy/


S/3 months/3 months after the document is presented to the RSAB for
approval/

Same rationale and review incentive for the various organizations to get
their acts together.

>
>
> Rationale: to exclude gaming the system by triggering a succession of
> vacancies.
>
>     Brian
>
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--000000000000afaf4e05cf4862d1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 16:06 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
On 26-Oct-21 23:43, Eliot L=
ear wrote:

> Thanks, Lars.=C2=A0 Just one note below:

> 

> On 26.10.21 12:07, Lars Eggert wrote:

>> Hi,



...

>>

>> 3-month timer restart?

>> https://github.com/intarchboa=
rd/program-rfced-future/issues/97

> 

> People should discuss.





=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Voting on approval of policy documents produced by th=
e RSWG shall

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have b=
een filled, up to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not appl=
y to a vacancy of

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the RSCE role, only of the stream representative=
s enumerated

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0above.



I suggest s/3 months/3 months after the first vacancy/

S/3 months/3 months after the documen=
t is presented to the RSAB for approval/

<=
div dir=3D"auto">Same rationale and review incentive for the various organi=
zations to get their acts together. =C2=A0




Rationale: to exclude gaming the system by triggering a succession of vacan=
cies.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian





-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--000000000000afaf4e05cf4862d1--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 16:13:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E40A3A1533 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:13:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=aPvu9AOB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=MUxEAto1
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MUqpOT1OmUVS for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DBCD3A1419 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B129A32008FA; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:13:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:13:02 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=G 2KjHyKyekeRTErkKiV5Kv1zjuLYzcfPP055hKjvGM8=; b=aPvu9AOBbmFgZKTfT mC+xVSoJQNSfX97PD6u7VOJPi2p6wOVcrM87Z0GJx4o28Et32g6gA5VJv6F0aDUM KSbkZ/VblDJaoJ0n5/4QeAQN2ZTtPxHhyu2PpZuYaYMcneYkGo7+/Dvnu/7K142c po05Xu3dXeze68eShJJROl4+B7GH6vSw63svNapU3SjHVALrAmQBkrKzqEt36soG WXnRxx42EQSgB6MKavVoGeNlHN3BNhjSNeWDrHVb30xVGH8QTZVTNZdbpCW8J0J+ nsZu0TZaHCjwFoAjsEvsxucAv2Ds2XB+vyTifz1Q8Lctr5/ju3VIup8TGKD0+6eX ok7cQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=G2KjHyKyekeRTErkKiV5Kv1zjuLYzcfPP055hKjvG M8=; b=MUxEAto1n5jIfC3IpR76vVdyHJ75lJ3CKxZfB9YtFWqtVGMlZdPbxQpO2 y8ck7sH92no5T3j9wQkvYypfFF72Gijh3PScK08pKeOpKcA9gBPUhL2yySgP4ylV SUrAruZ1sysP26mvWjlbAHx9o1daHj0QtwC6S+fz329Zc/PceeZN2+0tkAfzlKg2 gVzjqYfItpZVEphZosPTEbslj9Gyr+8/l2mA/1n/hwJyyUj+ko50Rk7PU/HLxvxS 2GgvXnK48Ve1hGyFxzyI9qogKb9PLNOOsh0Z981WzNU8ETU0SONQX2VRNUlVjykm QlSODmy2ZgI/XTPNguxr6lAazpQ+A==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefledgudegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelffdvueevffffkeeggfffueegheelkeekteejlefhleekveekudeiieevvdet gfenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohht rdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:13:00 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:12:57 +1100
Cc: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com> 
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:13:11 -0000

How about:
  https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101

Cheers,


> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive =
control=20
>>> of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the 'readability=20=

>>> and presentation of RFCs'.
>>>=20
>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it could =
be clearer.
> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction?
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> 

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Tue Oct 26 16:23:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1589D3A18C9 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:23:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.329
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vop4i4mpvYHV for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:23:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur03on0726.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe08::726]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A20293A1768 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:23:10 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Bdi8/xJv64XoXSpEq96A3Uy5+N5fi7vDtHodbJavdUFTT9Xt4Vua3jeyfzHO9DdtuCJLOS/Bddsg7haDhdUjPlvGJNVW5fdO+k/yB00K5i4I0xzR4nCD40gDe2bYkYXxgL1FtGbiJtJk8rQ0RQy8GkneMqyOC+YGxf9YxNEueVv8Q2HnEFfnq6VX4PC6VlIwe7Tjj4K8d7PVK7E6eQSW9tXTCKdz6WZstc7kObPbHKtac3KEV20RE59lds2HzB2B1S0BqSlox+TbbRLYhHRFrJuvYrHYQxD4/c2qbLdpwK7BMmY7pb3Kqk3WGzH6L27xejkHFxfZQ7XVJjvEXFSWmA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=mkqwyLJGXcVwdhllYCnqPkLbrVYrxle1Xe95BROQd8w=; b=TagBhCf/zCaDUBjPq8GoSLdhIDdYpKU/jnW++dA6E3t9J0YpgQ8KFIrB6s7aitB45JxhLoV4H3Wrli5HsCSKz/HUQkgizJQvJPpkq/5y7qVVOAUqzou4xwgLmNpfaQh1g1HE1Fuk4y/nsbVkFvf7hGbPE4pBafVIpJ32slU02rRzzDs+t06IVIg4w1ATIB7dHmQzQMKSsCxz68nFbfAj+p7N894WkTFafRNTe9o1ROYWA1UvaDG+Xf+ispLTGjGOPf9WAx5VNlF5yY0amyFSCPgV7G4O+iSNP1Y/3cvVczpTCsyEtdDI48uOmJgNWqUl4Xd1dr4078OKwa00RzpZWQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=mkqwyLJGXcVwdhllYCnqPkLbrVYrxle1Xe95BROQd8w=; b=CqQFK4yXyxXygeP0qWifNqJxacER1XRppG/nwy5LSPJ17gFpHyGbJSLtn9CmPkQqcwdPcybGnms40RERfBJQByAdmFLTtjDi2DZXiKLNFC7EoRnGgLByvHazim8uJ2of3Fvq9VdEQI2kRI1LQb55Z8VTVwymGL9WUKqBfRIPxizdld+pLU32LK5GHmDGkHE+gny0TUbUhTiDmeHH4P0cMUYSfq18YFEC6sS/4stemXbdAz1fu/S0FCk6v/dFZYB4AqJFQnlkuxOvYv0RrkU9XhhCjXMo6d02XAUYdmb4dBWPqHFdJY3RN8pQMsZbB651mHAllKs/xC5kCfNUd+btcg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB3PR0202MB3274.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:7::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:23:01 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:23:00 +0000
To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>  <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:22:58 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eEGSsvjG3zxVwj11yH7r2u0rVok2vR15d"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0501CA0048.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:67::34) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB6PR0501CA0048.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:67::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:23:00 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9f72449c-8194-4363-1fa9-08d998d78d22
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3PR0202MB3274:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:3044;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(53546011)(786003)(38100700002)(86362001)(5660300002)(186003)(316002)(33964004)(110136005)(956004)(66476007)(966005)(8676002)(4326008)(83380400001)(31686004)(66946007)(508600001)(44832011)(26005)(21480400003)(8936002)(2616005)(66556008)(31696002)(6486002)(2906002)(36756003)(235185007)(16576012)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?NlNjN28yaUwvMFN6eWtmOGxMTXhUQ0MvRmlpR1dDQlB1R1VDalhueEFvS09C?= =?utf-8?B?WUpPbDBKbTZIYXp3elozY3I5RDF1U3ZQK3phMEFLbU1tUEpXcEtseDB3MDBp?= =?utf-8?B?cENZS3YyWWtEZ0pqNXpTY2xNZ1k3WVZSdjdrMjAwVlRORGh6dEIzUUNibUNw?= =?utf-8?B?ZXg1aS9jZU52OXdIdTVZYWpWQ1RiS25ZeHFOMVFmVTdEZTBVd20xWk5VNmRh?= =?utf-8?B?TVZUUDg1NlNnMXRWL0toaUZ3QVRPbTNrdnVqcFZvblJGWm1xV01oVVdQZ1VM?= =?utf-8?B?LzRVK0hqYnVVVmRGMWpycVJMYkk0dmxOZThZZTNPcEtrS0xLM2wrb1FjRUVE?= =?utf-8?B?ZUlKbG14cENjaE9ac0pvTVd6RVE0K3cxV2k5UHc1c1hxM2dBUHNCM0ZBcjhY?= =?utf-8?B?bHlJMWY4QlM3TnB2bUxxZTNTQ0R5Mlg4cjh6NUkvUkNnU0tZeXZSc09WQUlG?= =?utf-8?B?NGxOdGFCNlFlNWN1R2tJZTlLRFVGRWxnSW1mUExNd3hqSzM3bkZUWENtZFhz?= =?utf-8?B?VGtFK281R1hkL2FGZk5XZzlTYXY4dEtWMWNRWkRXbno4Ukg1d3U4ZGdTSEhU?= =?utf-8?B?ZjNBUSsxOEhsL1Q1ZzNQWU9uTU96ZjROMERyMjdheFovcDhGT3NhS255SWQy?= =?utf-8?B?a1hQdVhtWnNML1dwckFJemVudGt5TFJ5dUxkRGtybDZDRlkybzl1VHpQUTZR?= =?utf-8?B?S2F0eGJWeHhPYVo1WkJwbnFaRGxkSUJpY1F3N3k0djBLVkRYUGQ4MGhJa0dD?= =?utf-8?B?UVhmYXFGRlpObHVJZmRyVU1zNlhVTE45ekJoR0YyalZ3cU9vektFMkxUNytw?= =?utf-8?B?QTdNV0FEMzZXbjV3ZkM0M25qaEpqSmxhS2dTREVwbDQ2V1poa3RLK0lvOUdK?= =?utf-8?B?ZmRZVkJKQkMwNkxRUDgwZGlna3NKZWJkeEM0TXJITVJ2Z2JzcDcxbVI4NXNq?= =?utf-8?B?VHVvTE5IVDI5YXYwSzNqaWZEME45b21YWXZ5SnppK2QwVytCdGplRVJ2Nk9H?= =?utf-8?B?TUVoR01DMGdxVjUrcWtyNFBlaE9EdElzQWpuNlpLRzJyL3lqS1c4WnFOQThz?= =?utf-8?B?YTJyNFMwQjFCbkVQQmZxVDNFajl6NVRXYWU3NDRCWFB5N1A4c3ZYMXFWZzhO?= =?utf-8?B?dU5PbG1WRjJtdURsRDhvK1JRWEZNQXBONWpkZkZUNU92RTByemJRYnlyQmxP?= =?utf-8?B?OHJiUUs0OGk0MEw0WVJsam9VaHl0YmtqdSsvWDIzMlQwdWtSeGVyZ1RtZENk?= =?utf-8?B?UHMyMmE2UWRQMnNGeFl1aG1YUzJyd0VnOWlYaFZ5RERieXpyZUtTL0JRQmJt?= =?utf-8?B?M0FmMVB4c2VCVldjQlZ0cHBEaUxOT3JmUmo4c0lyWFhoNmRzT1Zta0tQdEc5?= =?utf-8?B?TmlhYnVacExXSTRTSGVSRUh6MnJ6Y0wxRWRQcUZIaHM5bVlCTkZlaVgreGR4?= =?utf-8?B?REwzVVhmb0xxQncraTRlQ0xXRGZXYjFwZ2pnOTZ3TEI1akNVRDhCKzJoeVdl?= =?utf-8?B?bGJBQXAyWG9PbWd6azZ2b2t3OHp4OVYwUkNEYVBrUG94bGcvQm1ESDRSL3M3?= =?utf-8?B?eWJ4YXA3cmxCQllCMSs5RWFyTUYwWlUwTkU0dmRLVlM0K0dGUzVzNllNYnQr?= =?utf-8?B?ck5EVzdwMUkvTkdVOU9yZ08wdlc5TDdZbmZHNm1tQ0E2UGpyQnIwVFdGWkl3?= =?utf-8?B?WVk3SVFyanozMGZTUmlTRjBUb1hEZzRNVU40enVTR0huWlpGRVN2Uk1nK1pW?= =?utf-8?B?YVhyZlBnZVNrcmRCVnJReVpZR3hnRjhKRkQzeFJ6ZHdRWGVWUFVSeHEyVURl?= =?utf-8?B?RDZnZEEzNEV3WlIrQXRIbHZNa2FhOUxPaGJnanluRTZKS1FSdHUvTXQ2Y2Nh?= =?utf-8?B?NnRaaEFHRm1XRGVDYWVtVDdpWUhPclE1d1o0amZ2cERlQlg1ekxZOUY5SnJu?= =?utf-8?B?bVo3R21BdVM1TG9uL0FkRDBDV0w3VUUzWVNNbXZyenhEeTBmdUwrTno4RW8y?= =?utf-8?B?bHprRm84SkZZR0hYQ1gySkhmZnc1OSs4aWIzeEZtN0c3Y21HYVpRb2FrWEp2?= =?utf-8?B?U2J3M0pDOHpjY0VJbW55N2ppL1hQZ0RXby9qUGlWUi9ZczM4Y08wdzZBK1hT?= =?utf-8?Q?MSvk=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9f72449c-8194-4363-1fa9-08d998d78d22
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2021 23:23:00.6338 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: mFcuqT1/MfHBiPB/jQ9NywILRFXgTGFECGEZuXWJJgRU5y0TwgYlhbJBxu61GqfR
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3PR0202MB3274
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:23:16 -0000

--eEGSsvjG3zxVwj11yH7r2u0rVok2vR15d
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="lFi3XIB4lBqJqTTHKXLmMxYvH6iWduXGo";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
 
 <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>

--lFi3XIB4lBqJqTTHKXLmMxYvH6iWduXGo
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------86476BF1C3A7994309368E2D"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------86476BF1C3A7994309368E2D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Mark,

On 27/10/2021 00:12, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> How about:=20
> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101

Apologies if I'm getting the githubbery differy wrong but
your suggestion seems to add:

"In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC,
or to specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can
define working policies regarding the editorial preparation
and final publication and dissemination of RFCs."

My starting point is to be strongly opposed to that as it
puts the RPC in the position of initiating, and being the
proponent for, policy changes. That seems to me to be the
opposite of where we want to be, despite the inefficiency
of where we are:-)

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive
>>>> control of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the
>>>> 'readability and presentation of RFCs'.
>>>>=20
>>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it
>>> could be clearer.
>> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction?
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>> 
>=20
> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20

--------------86476BF1C3A7994309368E2D
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------86476BF1C3A7994309368E2D--

--lFi3XIB4lBqJqTTHKXLmMxYvH6iWduXGo--

--eEGSsvjG3zxVwj11yH7r2u0rVok2vR15d
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=mxyn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--eEGSsvjG3zxVwj11yH7r2u0rVok2vR15d--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 16:31:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909E03A1940 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=BR9iDNsS; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ivDE0dCO
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GdpXpZteH-Gu for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B128D3A193D for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5923201A17; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:31:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:31:05 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=m NFtjWkAQd9of9uNi9i02W0e5F+zYGF3KrzTtOgBcDw=; b=BR9iDNsSqbkF5Dsoo z1E1mBLeEFyGApbd1so7kicGOECreecvjGcK4VJn42Mgeo3z3ytusCoaIX4PcGJ3 trKRJh2iPD9uFbfotid0jKvQBmUXlOxQV3fG1dqF5SK9wjmwXnE+9/KBs8+9zuaA D3gJfw1JbeuCkpU9v8qeb9XkwNVFNRYRSCR8sDaCPZ0Law/sPswTIduH2pm92+LR UTRPGWt0Q4eLQ4NMQBpE3uuj1A2orsdmx+ZUyzaaAOa+Wm/ZKd3ilX/EaOn+viFs RHAB4DJ/YXP2WzY8hf7GlBpFVSYqYf9+DmfVhSVRmpBLUK5rs5e3g2fXyFizuIci UdhkQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=mNFtjWkAQd9of9uNi9i02W0e5F+zYGF3KrzTtOgBc Dw=; b=ivDE0dCOL7wWxwxJG+kikliuh9cWJ1UHn8Ku8Gttkjndy5se8G34blDaw PkI6/yf7aXmhPs1l4G9r7eVkrqnZTuG210GFBORg+A0hIBtdPTNeAEwQcIQCA9Qe bkCTdZQQ3qgaHA+3MoqGOOCl+pdnu83SvfAVIff8B5Rf7Kr83jobrdnTTzovvAC/ 2bxm+crEHI15r1GqUyNvYtfoLbU2pnmpgA6qk47GjmbO3P6JWJyRVBy6HhmzY948 y/jP2RnHloyklV+zrddPhEA3FfQ7KaxF8on+tUtC3ZjkW6uVp34r0MKER7iVcCVy zTk8yF/o8gWDuRiXe802ua0Zsx8bA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefledgudekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelffdvueevffffkeeggfffueegheelkeekteejlefhleekveekudeiieevvdet gfenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohht rdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:30:58 +1100
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>  <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net> 
To: Stephen Farrell 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:31:13 -0000

Hi Stephen,

FWIW I think the current text encourages such things even more strongly.=20=


I agree that the RPC setting policies willy-nilly is concerning, but I =
also acknowledge that the reality is that they'll need to in some =
circumstances, else many RFCs will be delayed indefinitely while the =
RSWG and RSAB chew on an ever-increasing pile of problems.

A few things we can do to ameliorate that:

- Make it clear that RPC policies are temporary and subject to review by =
the RSWG
- Make it clear that RPC polices are not pre-emptive; although =
persuasive, they can be overridden by the RSWG
- Limit the scope of RPC policies

I think all three are implied by the current text and the proposal, but =
could be clarified.

Cheers,


> On 27 Oct 2021, at 10:22 am, Stephen Farrell =
 wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hi Mark,
>=20
> On 27/10/2021 00:12, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> How about: =
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101
>=20
> Apologies if I'm getting the githubbery differy wrong but
> your suggestion seems to add:
>=20
> "In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC,
> or to specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can
> define working policies regarding the editorial preparation
> and final publication and dissemination of RFCs."
>=20
> My starting point is to be strongly opposed to that as it
> puts the RPC in the position of initiating, and being the
> proponent for, policy changes. That seems to me to be the
> opposite of where we want to be, despite the inefficiency
> of where we are:-)
>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
>> Cheers,
>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>> On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive
>>>>> control of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the
>>>>> 'readability and presentation of RFCs'.
>>>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it
>>>> could be clearer.
>>> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction?
>>> Eliot
>>> 
>> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
> 

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Tue Oct 26 16:47:53 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D093A194C for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.329
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zQ00uL5uHKM for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2070f.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:7e1b::70f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9864B3A194A for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=kXxDkdf6IT7gsEqmWAJD7vEajFsxr8KvWfWGpQHvZhTxPLalmJQEqRtKNd/rWH8x7bJlERWaR3Xqv0LicbRqgnE7n8AyYfWkKQu/S6u7Q9pVr7GJnbfnqVhuQ535fLfYdizr1/CDtdiGVJlcVLKVwgFXwn+M/VeUpel3EIifrK+oj20y6kEpOqFIGl84lvxxV3vSq9iXw+ThBPI6LO+ktQ0CjgSeyW7bIFSsVxMg6jRGqQcs/4GOcmb6w57KGdAajXKWZGmcr0T+EOAJiase/dyweBCQV+yNJ0sa6uX3lsiqSgDu9NwDPbg4tMLxr3qoUH87/ZbSUUzBUulvxZUflg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=kH4QUYIHDqjHSpT4XIb1AE0ImTyfYDZPgBZZNnni/Gc=; b=jupu9i/NRjka//yo60I30z5PE3wzmRBZiGO3hCUcYHN8TdZyY13iJxg1Tm0Af7024FcPY41VLIAms0hiIA76Jq4BQnBAeq1Ck9d2NwZaT+etvYhCP7r3eKv83wGk+ijusS+OH03ZVAFI4mQKyUYwaGJbzAS3YuXtzAxXqTNRKksf1yoDIwx2JUChXtfJD7NF51m/v7Pq60/qQquT3sE1FsY25UV2CyuB34QGnFwR7+nqXc00tLiZab0NUl+1Tl9chU2urUm21nsV+geyQ5aKAUiDjI4BiqRx7mQA4noGTu4GnPSbYcva4sIUjgPtbo1p2JGymDGHeJpozEEDQKSM+g==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=kH4QUYIHDqjHSpT4XIb1AE0ImTyfYDZPgBZZNnni/Gc=; b=LvxQeSV+q0QUrpDH2XaadHmmaE1tWpuHB1Y3ntZTPmuzP9n24Ql1YJfSsitbdOhgo1IB01NXWJoJ+Kl1vg+jdjt3WTPDBE/SrMMzwyEjPFXiQYFI7yEQCHyglF/MKNlisuIQQruXC/tBakXDfMPHCRiSZtQjRCvgUmBOeGpFb3sJRsVvGi9W/vxOCJ5hbk7OJWpu2zjwDbTCxrIu024rkgnjzgYQ8c7DyDqJs5Y64AvLYsau6VdQC5I1gvdP6F8+t02FgHQaCdUFHwLHA5zbRmFK1cSIFvZVUUApW7qXyXdkw6i67zlCgCMQyL7kZ8aOt8HDJNeDPcNgRyEfUlXemg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB4871.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:59::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:47:38 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:47:38 +0000
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>  <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>  <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:47:35 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Dw8ZjCnUF45eYrnRxguFV70wFx6AkKwOa"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB9PR05CA0025.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:1da::30) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78) by DB9PR05CA0025.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:1da::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:47:37 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 2a968519-a483-4460-b76c-08d998dafe06
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB4871:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:5516;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(38100700002)(6916009)(8676002)(235185007)(53546011)(36756003)(966005)(786003)(54906003)(2906002)(31696002)(316002)(6486002)(31686004)(2616005)(186003)(66476007)(66556008)(44832011)(4326008)(66946007)(508600001)(33964004)(5660300002)(83380400001)(21480400003)(86362001)(8936002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?ZGhwK3E2MHNUdHMzTGFTVVo2dkFqWGEvMFgvZWZ4YzJqSFBlYXh4WnJldWZX?= =?utf-8?B?SHJ1b3BGWm9SV0hoL24rOVYzTkkwbzlrTmpKSnBPcS9DZHBsSE9GOG1rU1Iv?= =?utf-8?B?bXhnazZOTEFiN2VRaXpRcEVUc0xVM3FSYmtpQ2FPdHZBakNaYW9TZkFQUzAv?= =?utf-8?B?S0FZS2RGOGxUbmJZMEVhQ2FNSVBxalBOK1k2bmg3Y1JpM1NOVkREamExdEht?= =?utf-8?B?RHFTcFk0QmV6cGtsY2FTSkFTUlMvTk5MNkcxNnp4eThwallyQ2oyc0VWV2dp?= =?utf-8?B?ZElOSlFUS1ZKVngyZUpCNUxlUGhwcTIzdC9rUlpYN2hpUGZFKzN3OEIrY3d2?= =?utf-8?B?ZXFCUGZoYTZSdENMUHA2b0czNkJUZmVGa3RQZmFKYnRINURsZHRCd1RDVGVS?= =?utf-8?B?OVl1WXlQREZ5dHVKTkYyNjUyTmlaKzRIWXZMQ3hJN0R3SitXQmpIdDhVWFF4?= =?utf-8?B?eWZ3aDU4b0JNTHhWOTNtOTU2SHNWbm5sZEZtdzdyTkh1MEtMNURFR1VtN1pn?= =?utf-8?B?dllRYTdZVjErT2ZoM3ZoT0lTZzNGUG9jSmNRNHNQYTFkaExlODRGRnVVMmhL?= =?utf-8?B?d2hTSkdoQWp3L01MUktJVnJ2RkFjZ2RDVFBRc3R2dWxhY1FyaDh2bDF0dHBz?= =?utf-8?B?N0Q5Myt3SjRjbmFlaVAyY3pkdk9ocUo3dEJBRm9ZQk5NMjEwdFlBNWRDbS9X?= =?utf-8?B?TWc2YUh6d1k0M2kyUXVIcDE3c1FpSGVWTURYWnFYT3Noamc3VVZkQUU1RlI3?= =?utf-8?B?cklTbW9rSUxwTzlTZU4rS0paakN5dWhkZWlxOUNYb3loYzNSb0lldzBibDBP?= =?utf-8?B?a1NRWGYzWHVram1kVE5EVkVTdnpMYjZ2RG54QkZ2M200cU80MFNlMzhteGZY?= =?utf-8?B?ZkRGZXZmUTE5UmRmYlZEVDJOQW1WRTM3UXZVT1lxSWhKZDY1SjVsRHVXazl4?= =?utf-8?B?ZGsrT1g1b1AzVlJBZVBBSThmeFh3ZmFWaDZOSFlvUHkySG8yTnMrbEVqV1Ns?= =?utf-8?B?VlA5Z1l3Y044UEFwTVc5Y3JINU1yL1JFU1Z2ZWlMYURISnNBczNmK1I4SEJh?= =?utf-8?B?L0JiVFdzbGtDM0NJckZVRW5Qeis5ZWhBRk1TVW1RMU8wUkQyd090NEtEMkNX?= =?utf-8?B?azM1V1I1a0NxSHRkdys0NU1EcVVXQnFGeGxwbFozcWZlN2lOTDUxcDJkZzhp?= =?utf-8?B?V0JMQVloWWRUQ3FiVzZhYUd6Nmd1R1lLYk1IVGp1Rk5xN1JYclcxM3pnRGxG?= =?utf-8?B?MFhkVHBxL3JMK1hkQnQ0WHpYY0JNcytlWVhKNlpYRkQxTHQ5QXBESjUzeGtu?= =?utf-8?B?eERpbTYwZGdUc3UwZXFCRG1zaEorc1BQOFRQUlF5eEk1NDIyb3VST1l1Uytu?= =?utf-8?B?ZU5iT0kzVkZ5RVFjT2xUK0w1TTBZUW1WY0Vhd3hiTXRlRlRvNXVxYUNRdlE0?= =?utf-8?B?bUtybHlnbk5vVTR1STJkMHlXZ21yUjg2UmNNS2NVVnFYWnVpS1Q3YU1zaXM1?= =?utf-8?B?Y0dzV0FibzRxVThxa29LWUo1TzBpMm04VmZ5RmsyL2RYU2l6MzM5K0RNcm9M?= =?utf-8?B?MGJ0TnFXYUlDWlVVRWlxbU5RdVI3RmFWbzY2VVlNVmsvNkJRQi9aV1J5cDJG?= =?utf-8?B?NGh1OHRaYzNaTFZJUU0vdjUwWGtNSExxRXU5eEhiOHJrdWZFR2NxNmNQSFAr?= =?utf-8?B?dmxlRHVacnRZZkJXZnFBNXBGekpRdStjdUhuek91Ulh2VU5wY1kwV1VwMkVk?= =?utf-8?B?VXh0cDBrbHp3dmk1WmZUaGhaMThwZVZiZGdRYVFWbW5mTHF5cFNIVytaWi9l?= =?utf-8?B?ZlhZQ0M2ZVE2bjFRNEV2OGRISDZYK1JOMEV3VkpRZVpQM2U3OW1aTE9wS1FV?= =?utf-8?B?NFFwbk5lcWRrNWJiMVN0cFNMOU5VanhVR1VmT0RacmludENtU1NHd3ZGanZz?= =?utf-8?B?cFB6T0lyRW5rMHZUTmQ5WHlNdGtLRTFLdkJRUzAzTzJhMHpuWWdZZnR3aVdL?= =?utf-8?B?dmxoZmR0bmw4NnpGblF1aHlTQVdweHRHeGp3K3hLU05LQ0hVQXg3b1RlOGFo?= =?utf-8?B?WWZ2TExDcWxrQU9YMDAvNkI1aFoxNVcxenB3ZVBHOHpkbTgyaFl1RGNxamc5?= =?utf-8?B?YndOb0RJUTVET05WaTg0enljUnUxemxJNnJtSjBjYjZ2bGp6VVFzVnRyNDJp?= =?utf-8?Q?H2gTRkMJ/O5ngE1awcOOo/MuUOWkvwfHoxPUOwNYpgU/?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2a968519-a483-4460-b76c-08d998dafe06
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2021 23:47:38.3290 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: LErBC1G4gxWHbjQi1G1AJvnglyZkMlpcmgLEvibjOR8SYYGnxdOMqatLwoGHW5qO
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB4871
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:47:52 -0000

--Dw8ZjCnUF45eYrnRxguFV70wFx6AkKwOa
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="zSSw9kSUEBNokiNumNPCTAi2m9EYKalrS";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org,
 Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
 
 <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>
 
 <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>

--zSSw9kSUEBNokiNumNPCTAi2m9EYKalrS
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------52C1641F7941CB2299BE655A"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------52C1641F7941CB2299BE655A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>=20
> FWIW I think the current text encourages such things even more
> strongly.

Hmm, maybe I need to re-read the draft as I didn't get that
intent from the text nor the previous list discussion.

Again, I'd be strongly opposed to the RPC setting policy in
almost all circumstances. My guess, from dealing with them,
as an author/WG chair/AD, has been that they'd also not want
to be put in that place. (If that's wrong, be great to know
that.)

> I agree that the RPC setting policies willy-nilly is concerning, but
> I also acknowledge that the reality is that they'll need to in some
> circumstances, else many RFCs will be delayed indefinitely while the
> RSWG and RSAB chew on an ever-increasing pile of problems.

Huh? If we're setting the streams up to be commonly waiting
on the RSWG/RSAB then we're doing it wrong. I don't see any
ever-increasing pile but maybe my pile-vision is limited;-)

>=20
> A few things we can do to ameliorate that:
>=20
> - Make it clear that RPC policies are temporary and subject to review
> by the RSWG - Make it clear that RPC polices are not pre-emptive;
> although persuasive, they can be overridden by the RSWG - Limit the
> scope of RPC policies

"RPC-initiated policy" should be a misnomer I think - isn't
the RPC intended to follow, and not set, policy ?If I'm wrong
there then the draft certainly confused me. (*)

Cheers,
S.

(*) To be clear: I think the RPC have done, and will keep
doing, a great job. And where they see difficulties, we
should have mechanisms in place for those to be raised and
dealt with efficiently.

>=20
> I think all three are implied by the current text and the proposal,
> but could be clarified.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 10:22 am, Stephen Farrell
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hi Mark,
>>=20
>> On 27/10/2021 00:12, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> How about:
>>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101
>>=20
>> Apologies if I'm getting the githubbery differy wrong but your
>> suggestion seems to add:
>>=20
>> "In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC, or to
>> specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can define
>> working policies regarding the editorial preparation and final
>> publication and dissemination of RFCs."
>>=20
>> My starting point is to be strongly opposed to that as it puts the
>> RPC in the position of initiating, and being the proponent for,
>> policy changes. That seems to me to be the opposite of where we
>> want to be, despite the inefficiency of where we are:-)
>>=20
>> Cheers, S.
>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear  wrote: On
>>>> 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the
>>>>>> exclusive control of the RPC. Is that really our intent?
>>>>>> Likewise for the 'readability and presentation of RFCs'.
>>>>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again,
>>>>> it could be clearer.
>>>> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred
>>>> correction? Eliot 
>>> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>> 
>=20
> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20

--------------52C1641F7941CB2299BE655A
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------52C1641F7941CB2299BE655A--

--zSSw9kSUEBNokiNumNPCTAi2m9EYKalrS--

--Dw8ZjCnUF45eYrnRxguFV70wFx6AkKwOa
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=enyk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Dw8ZjCnUF45eYrnRxguFV70wFx6AkKwOa--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 17:00:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05D03A1956 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=isi.edu
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OfyIyabr5ZL for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D266C3A194F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id v3so1552752uam.10 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isi.edu; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=r9MvgU7wE2/JRFyWmFXzzUTRVMLzapGMSt3/jcgEG0Y=; b=lXmm0MS+D636DWkxPVFsprpA4cnBzjbZrW9iVp627XpjlDSDX7BOjly8YJFubITSmb nIhZpBO94FRjGdoy78WZH2F2oDsYuEllWclZpAVHDjSY2d+yJby/TtYzrEPIRPh1ivYD TlCOb3+PDkj7qUvQtBEgArtGMLg/PpAoFZZ1n8wr4QjUlaj2SjD+EVZ5i51W8nQqaH71 TFEgIvLAWOreIxX8X7CRFbt/KbNsPV1gGlaNrzD1lzOPDZCygQwBrmU3N6CoAW6aVQRz d5FS/CLVc5vfgYsxbxtN9ttOkQhez8tK8rpwulzir23aiWSxw+HFni2IIhbivyTRlASy 5xMg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r9MvgU7wE2/JRFyWmFXzzUTRVMLzapGMSt3/jcgEG0Y=; b=YjT1rOYxUGmXERW8RYmtt9qFQNGQ53rlcUFd3CN/PdOj1hVuT4+eo8HByWKO5X6iwF TSfGvjIYow5+EhL4j0yPmjiUWDaoYkvBmPp8zhCwWu1DlXWt7iaMMFQLdaXrcs9PS6Uw HjI/HLpkL6qHeUjbQ7qaRmRmt68ML3RtYsnJWW6eDibTkXLrhMmtHu9OSkDHLw9QTWzh rA+e+GUXDJbWjLHGF9r48sCdyKGmkMaPNSchlm5uxsv8oYo5067FrEDQWqjoseWtxihC zX6f/f2QPccZZkhtQwT0V5TKluISAhjobHxbP5W0Vjm93xo8m3R1Xs5mKWwylVyg4FPz d/4g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530JAQvXS9T9HgRA1LJvL7Fe9lcV948wf/4BW3c02NYIxaLz6kTW C11O6NGPLK6J0/0+rAagkApJwTaG/L16EpbIsnzJUjqzSKU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPqxJOtiWx6avzhTZ92XDRJ/b9wxsHh4k2cFVHyQjILeRoLSEkfyWlzABCdF/brMz4vrYiwHFUzQn5//v9VpM=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:2374:: with SMTP id o20mr20422052vsa.54.1635292813239;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
In-Reply-To: 
From: Wes Hardaker 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:59:37 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003cc1eb05cf4a47b3"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:00:20 -0000

--0000000000003cc1eb05cf4a47b3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

>
>
>
> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
> heritage.


IMHO, this sounds like good appendix material.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI

--0000000000003cc1eb05cf4a47b3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"





- There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some

heritage.

IMHO, this sounds like good appendix material.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI


--0000000000003cc1eb05cf4a47b3--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 17:04:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017A33A1953; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r6VjvLb_u9fp; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:04:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr20128.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.2.128]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D8233A0EF6; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=JYWeGobi3ra1ti+jOxYO3VmC69SWsf1Ox+S7j04xjqcVnq5IMCvjqB//xa/y8zeJMWUgSERI2lh9fuOlB7pWPqyIuSG0dOJ+8ShyRTE8NEJ9gu2RAWA4n22rvbKh4GjRSqIpvCwZTnqmRSE9VrRnxTftcAlASD9gxNyVvqDQCz9rXo0l2xZDIDrWdvxtxojuyczhJfuFvhXOdFCDdc7zLPb55s4cuRNhDwU7W+INFplVaaFYaEpiIdOYkleTKiEUMteJSAXbp5ISmcC//ryQRRgd3LwzHqS8QFD2lWBeGCxJ69AGHI8+cXkvRXngYQKlYP7E0t9qdsHW54aKMg2TgA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ajCERaww3t2e1zO/Md0OR9F0Br13gXv7PWDrdxe2ZCA=; b=LvqK1YCl95B9ptyQZ2ddwGUwSKNh1elxb0XB3A2ddxBbwwxtR9C9sIPygaIuIeYSuxpfVgY93dP9myGpWavNFYzSi0rcHJ+jm8CRdn9y2HnKaLyTeXk75Z2Ca0hTES5y0PCoMAfGrVsw9Lxi2uf31p0fUST7DOfd7sq76BJmiME+nrDI+UJsYf8R0Vf5BQjQcAPbqJVHnRbIX+u+UacjLziX7ZfKCC0C/rSqAugOvsOdhacM+4Tzzg5HwG5DJi/F7onu4/7wEA3CSbOPCIWahYw2m71eXNbLZ0ULNHfG6E/DjuIFwt2ge5xDdvBxoUdJdm44uK/f5dxe0kKwlmrvHA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ajCERaww3t2e1zO/Md0OR9F0Br13gXv7PWDrdxe2ZCA=; b=epcvN9G+J4QRibdsBkcG1evN5J3JtNNlG/k0u3ixcEFjvvVDyNJ9zoMcRc6YEzA0psdVl7mAL/1WMLR6AvPhgKgKYqLimjFJ+ThonY1IQ17XgDszCedq/829EcI80f9oJgiNa9f/X47joPbRPhylwMBD8t7Gbn0SDJUH8micqXbN+W+Molrpsgjh6IhFMW2oM6gGUzKaI3rzhE6N0feuAYsCy/sy8t6DFN6FrrGMaK/7VptL5B1i1mIOH4wTq+6MNaePacMPXJ9JNVfiFgaWDbPULcv48MsaUZqiLUyjN46YJYmhhwKFM1CDHKmpJ7exgBbYWlJLMdjoXIf0aVGObQ==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR0202MB2680.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:1d::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:04:18 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:04:18 +0000
To: Wes Hardaker 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <23019077-41a4-3e28-9c7e-755297d53253@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:04:14 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="S1WISyowUgHjWcSnRtwduFowH2fLi3x04"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0501CA0006.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:8f::16) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78) by DB6PR0501CA0006.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:8f::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:04:17 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 58f23ee9-07fe-4239-7e2b-08d998dd51d6
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0202MB2680:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:2399;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(53546011)(6916009)(4326008)(44832011)(8936002)(2906002)(36756003)(66574015)(66946007)(235185007)(83380400001)(33964004)(86362001)(2616005)(316002)(21480400003)(786003)(38100700002)(66476007)(8676002)(54906003)(6666004)(31686004)(186003)(31696002)(6486002)(5660300002)(66556008)(508600001)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?VWcyZ3VRbENQdTVFVUxuTDd0NUxLV3oxNXpVeTBnRy9aUUxjK3E2d0M4eWJV?= =?utf-8?B?TExsOUZ6SDJmR2o0cUYwN21oNVNvWjdZMCtnRXVIcG1JanVXSURQeUNuVHFw?= =?utf-8?B?Tk14RzFlT2JXdC9lVjRSaUg1NWtHVGd6QlNIVXFPeDEreUVRWWFmR3dYUDFv?= =?utf-8?B?WGxoWHYrZjJxbTg5ZGlBN2F1NER2am95WHgyYjVVRzBPeXpMNXdsZ1R2bVFQ?= =?utf-8?B?YmJrTDBVUkRsNWpwcFhzNlJqWWhjYzJtNWpHTlRFbDV0Y3BCZm4xMExjdkVs?= =?utf-8?B?TU5KbWJOUnFUWUpuaTBkUDQ3L3loMmh3N3hPaVJBZmVSa25CeVpmMUpHZ0NL?= =?utf-8?B?NWVoZFl4L3ZJL1M3ditYL2QzQ05JT1dCWGk4U3ZKTmQydW1aanFVWkhkR012?= =?utf-8?B?THlEdU9kMmRRVFdacGhMdE5KSHJuY2FLSm05bTJkZUhoVjhVQ1BVN2RXRHZi?= =?utf-8?B?Q0dkMkdITlJUWnJlbmFmQ0pNaXpNZHhPVi9LNmZ6TUJvVWgxdHU3U2RVaXFv?= =?utf-8?B?SGZ3TU9Pa0lyc241ZDVyVnN0RzJpc21Kc0xtOFlsY3pBelJFWjgzS0o3enpV?= =?utf-8?B?V2hIVlhzbTRkM0s1eG40M3d1YlQ3WW9udEtrQWlKaVdMMjJ4OTNiUEFtc0pM?= =?utf-8?B?RmYvelBBdUU3akt1QThZRGNkemJ2NEllNndNNEUxbHVqWld2cjl6L1pZYnVZ?= =?utf-8?B?OU9QZVRPSGlCTmU1b1JoeWJoOUtPQUY2K3hLYTZJd2Q0OVo1dUNRRTh4eXJt?= =?utf-8?B?dFo4YTZvOWFsN084ODJacnlhRjFIVFA4czQ4MThXejY5QjhVblR5eVNRbUp0?= =?utf-8?B?ajhoMlFaSjhhVDh4QmNzSXh3ajlMdXVSR2NOdTZNSGd6RU84RlRlaUVBWTRF?= =?utf-8?B?cW0zQUNxSkF1RHZNQ0l3T3JmQkpxZ1FiNjF6TDFmUXhQL3Q5Rm1GSHJOWmk2?= =?utf-8?B?cXUvdkp0SmNnLzZKcWNpNGU2TStpakY3QmJqS3hmaWZFZGg5WnVkZktGd3lq?= =?utf-8?B?YW1nQXNZZ2NsU0hNdXMyc1FuS1ZHVGVpSVN0UzJ4bCt4K25PeVZjbEFWMk9C?= =?utf-8?B?bVF4eFRnSDA1SnRJRFFsV2s2RW1nSEdXOGNMRHJ1Vm1wT2NEVFpxTzRzM0JZ?= =?utf-8?B?azJ5blNpbng4emFuZ0JRWldnTXNRWnRHWGZpYzRsK253eVZMOGo1bU43aDAr?= =?utf-8?B?enRFMVp2TWp5dGpHQXBUQnRXYk5HeFNyWXB3dVNWbnhDT2N4ekhEb2lsL3JF?= =?utf-8?B?TUw1SXcvUDhBUXRrWEVwSHg4RzVJTzc5NmZmclpIK2xJU3U5NWVaWEtTVWZF?= =?utf-8?B?dVhBT3N1VU4xODZGK09KSWhrbVRSMENLaUxhaGkzQnI3Y3VZQ25GdFNoa1pZ?= =?utf-8?B?b2kvdjhiMXBYZlNZOHhkQzRIaFFrMTM5azFXZmZYSEdhK3VvTUg0bmxxREh5?= =?utf-8?B?UnV3ejZ4UlhYcWxiSWRVaTZTRnZjREhFTzhnSWxsaStCeFpIbEVBZVJZbnZ0?= =?utf-8?B?UGFieW5jemE1djkzNEN5MEc2QlRzTERnQUdHdUlqUFhIblE1a0JZZVYzOWRl?= =?utf-8?B?d0JZWmRwRW5RN3R1eVVLYlgveDA3L1hqREc2R3BRZFg2d3NLYVYraDFMczR6?= =?utf-8?B?azY2djV3V2VsMUVoMTlpcVQyWk0zL0xaNjQ5U1gwOCswdjNOZ1FCMTV1azBN?= =?utf-8?B?Z05FQmhFeW9Md3RuWDlTRTV1OUZvWFF4ZU5kbkR3WVdvYmRDdnZab3BNOGpr?= =?utf-8?B?b1RkaTZaME9RRjcyNUJMdGFCSndJbzJGNnptVVlDcDRRUmRjRyt2eGtqOXBM?= =?utf-8?B?aVJ5c3lOTy9SRjdZODdvUVBhN0JHVnB0MWQzZ3JGd3VYdEJBYnU5RVhFckZF?= =?utf-8?B?TzhXbVEvdTdCU1VJWkJkdFFRUjBOSE9yUDJwWWVwV2dWb0dIeTJMbHA3R2w2?= =?utf-8?B?Nm9md29ZUU45bkZpNll3SnJOWmVlc0E5UENBVVB5SlhkK09HZE1lbFo3SHR6?= =?utf-8?B?a1VsT3ZDeGFvTmpKTnExM1dOS0J6b0IwMGJxMnc4WWhKSEc4Zm00YlQzcW5Y?= =?utf-8?B?Y0JlNlFrM3lRSG81Z01YQVprODFpZWxDencwejNXaFpsSWJkRXp1MWcrdjNP?= =?utf-8?B?R0hvSnVJY3Nwd1V1NjNQazVXanpqa29wVjB0SXV3MTBidGpDcStwalZ0a2Uz?= =?utf-8?Q?ZnIvXZwo4uagB1SchoALb1A9fJNKsTOP1ene7D8qhv8s?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 58f23ee9-07fe-4239-7e2b-08d998dd51d6
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 00:04:17.9660 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 7a9XLd29BkXtteq3Ghyw4aVtr/XMWZnXvy8KateRYIJfQJNhf/u21GtgQ3T5SBta
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0202MB2680
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:04:28 -0000

--S1WISyowUgHjWcSnRtwduFowH2fLi3x04
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Ya8DsZNqb5NtFWSvzE5Xxan1pyP8KReaB";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Wes Hardaker 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <23019077-41a4-3e28-9c7e-755297d53253@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--Ya8DsZNqb5NtFWSvzE5Xxan1pyP8KReaB
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------5BBE2C1DB5A074069B49CC47"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------5BBE2C1DB5A074069B49CC47
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 00:59, Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
>> heritage.
>=20
> IMHO, this sounds like good appendix material.

Perhaps. But the draft as-is seems to me to lack any
guidance from the programme on this aspect, and I for
one think it's important, so I'd argue that having it
as some up-front, at the top, text about one goal for
the RSWG, would be a better plan than it being one of
various appendages.

Cheers,
S.

--------------5BBE2C1DB5A074069B49CC47
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------5BBE2C1DB5A074069B49CC47--

--Ya8DsZNqb5NtFWSvzE5Xxan1pyP8KReaB--

--S1WISyowUgHjWcSnRtwduFowH2fLi3x04
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmF4l34FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+q8
nBAAilpSzEmm/VuwjUzrpvrMcyFUyFF+StuIabZNQQYiPkEYk3Xxi0M+qEMVfccsLnCgpdVp4gjO
JuCJNnIcVLcoJIkRtfjTDWH3Q0wRET1bm1CU+5EwFmPsvhjQ/Z/f580UsNV7OxmV5AmkYNlpJ0uU
eYHrOKtlGnD3GptDHnhFE8qlpxF7U1vy/2TAqHUJvva6SujDB8n5yimMjE6aR+1e1i+QfvGvCo3u
ghUyzh8KV2GNAotnWqzY+6uXQPIwgIU0ktYxxwCjmKcryZnclUjFwVp1faNtHg2v77l2cKo/sC5F
EqfJ8A0Dviq4w3Jl8hpPp2LUkKBCzuCV6rHbMnAQRee89Q9WOJlF4xr7TULnAdxEedJshFhW3ANj
8EbPXR3HRlDaKOV4CRDJixhgHrJtQtlNMoxz+6AO5S5s/52LYFwh+x/Nzj39LxRZh1l9avZxVYlJ
RC5MpnJqk6MQMwPeHMB22Qp/Fmz5dNpF0uQasWb2gcyfCdF3NPuE9L402JxPtAuqIJ/JAPWTueYr
NvT+KhDaiQ7LDR5wMFckpddbUFWHtSjFlO3qmQHUwkkz7cBq3KQdtoJIqirgk+ZA0u79X8lCFZZO
ek2GMkeEaOZdI4CexQ8yzDfoe0kqFWd59QJCtuu2Z52wb9z0E1SMD+V4cC2Edhon3SlKpzAEPJLI
4Lo=
=uDGs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--S1WISyowUgHjWcSnRtwduFowH2fLi3x04--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 17:28:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451CD3A196E; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:28:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id squwp3ftcVmi; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 477D93A196D; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3657D49D956A; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vFxgIvU8jJWi; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3437941274CD; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:28:06 +1300
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Eliot Lear 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Stephen Farrell 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:28:17 -0000

> On 27/10/2021, at 8:18 AM, Stephen Farrell  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 26/10/2021 19:39, Jay Daley wrote:
>>> On 27/10/2021, at 3:53 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>>  wrote:
>>>>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate" =
authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok as
>>>>> they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think it'd be
>>>>> better if there were a statement somewhere that the LLC only
>>>>> has that position because of the iasa2 process, i.e., because
>>>>> that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community currently want.
>>>> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to
>>>> see?
>>> Somewhere, don't care where:
>>> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various =
administrative actions related to the RFC series and the IETF more
>>> generally, the LLC holds that position thanks to community
>>> consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not scoped to consider
>>> changes to the LLC's authority, such changes are within the gift of
>>> the IETF community, albeit constituted differently from the RSWG
>>> (e.g. in some iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>>> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully you get the
>>> gist,
>> You haven=E2=80=99t actually explained why this text is needed.
>> This is certainly a general qualifier on the authority of the LLC,
>> but as you've pointed out in your proposed text there isn=E2=80=99t =
anywhere
>> in this new model where the RSWG/RSAB can override the LLC or set new
>> rules for the LLC so adding this qualifier doesn=E2=80=99t have any =
practical
>> purpose for this draft.   There are plenty of statements of fact from
>> other RFCs that aren=E2=80=99t in this I-D and arbitrarily adding =
some is in
>> my view bad policy writing and just creates problems further down
>> when the source of the facts needs to change.
>=20
> Sure, that's arguable, but if one accepts that then there'd
> be no occurrences of the word "ultimate" in the draft, don't
> you agree?

For me, the word "ultimate" is used within the context of this model and =
it=E2=80=99s use doesn=E2=80=99t imply anything beyond that.  However, =
I=E2=80=99m personally not stuck on that word and "ultimate authority" =
could be replaced with "authority" or "ultimate remit" or ...

>=20
> IMO the draft could give the wrong impression as to which is
> the dog and which the tail, esp for readers unfamiliar with
> the history (which'd be most of the few readers), so I think
> in this case that kind of added text would be a worthwhile
> addition.

That=E2=80=99s a very long stretch and even if it were possible, the =
document already includes "The IETF LLC is ultimately responsible to the =
community via the mechanisms outlined in its charter" as a =
contraindication.

Jay

>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
>> Jay
>>> Cheers, S.
>>>> Thanks, Eliot
>>> 
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Tue Oct 26 17:43:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED623A1977 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:43:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bIO2Lp7Dn350 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBA823A1978 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id s3so1231120ild.0 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=e9VCDEkoEyH3vfFtck/Bl6SMjmoaNiT/BgmNy7usu80=; b=C2FhXhjTie3/Dm5GG+NxUkig9EAM79g3uOQ10RpPA0CXgoyxDMA9IGUdap//ZDf6Jw CRhil/l7gDew5h0ZklLWwypDJNkurgunStO/QQjK2gfJPl4Q9asA8gPm4LnLoxV8HhX5 PCsrsuqAihJkXoWgSVumV/TT2jeY3Rmih1DbbE8FPDPpvt1etS55bCdDy+iNoHPbnhwo XcP/6iFxD3xErOV5VrrISdk//r5pFJgkC+vI/tbWjPdZsKEdRLlpEIyQeAJGBZzs/hMU OS4oVzo5yPbYMRQxWjk10y+32RUMG0EExwjakcxRyYnq2gA8Wp1OVSbWJReos8as+ebb i0Ew==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=e9VCDEkoEyH3vfFtck/Bl6SMjmoaNiT/BgmNy7usu80=; b=nuRAW/UMIT5XOQfC2fBgXMiYA7b+JHGIkVSoHHhMBuLdvrOTV5pIbWYm6/TJRrsSNa yDhPCpZbbSeFbLRGdbIJpcfeuB6BVjOmGDLcHPaIdiWdzxhqSCx+yLcjaeg/1pFrzzxx A+4SG+W+gvR04s93jRd0BMJ6rtF8TwDIPHXEgc1EKGk1kolRXrW//L0EJ3o3Gi0eqziv AlinhdmVSe9eTznOrkTQ/wKLCVfb6KDeif3rubgvqPL6fzU56T6d95fdyZnvuwjYrwlu +OlOudiYSlMXjQfqz4xpVeCeEF32ChCcxCxR+o0AC+sG4/FdCmWHipOIBVjjmWWpL/0d vTdA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533RlGXp5wYT/YhPcjkUHHYnPk5tyZ3iGmlaoE2A0epogYj8rzqH Xq1BVSRV4RI1G0g2DNr9RGm5bskfmWaf5R4ozlUqNw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyvfqVbgpZuJhUJaUSTgckQPQyvk1odcoGwpIG9hHAvprJy72yiuy45q+9zz0TUTKv/D9VFOedAQr+1XWBnEpE=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1b8a:: with SMTP id h10mr10558528ili.219.1635295416467;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:43:36 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:43:00 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066d87505cf4ae2b6"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:43:44 -0000

--00000000000066d87505cf4ae2b6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:54 AM Stephen Farrell 
wrote:

>
> Hiya,
>
> On 26/10/2021 15:38, Eliot Lear wrote:
> > Hi Stephen,
> >
> > Thank you.  I have two questions for you below:
>
> Fair questions. I didn't propose any though as
> I've not been active in the discussion for a
> few months, but since you ask...
>
> (BTW, I'd be fine if someone else wanted to start
> over proposing text rather than propose mods to
> mine below.)
>
> >
> > On 26.10.21 16:34, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> >>
> >> Hiya,
> >>
> >> I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now read
> >> the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussion.
> >> I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by it, but
> >> I don't object.
> >>
> >> A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't recall
> >> being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):
> >>
> >> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
> >> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
> >> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation
> >> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
> >> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as
> >> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a
> >> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
> >> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
> >> may be best placed to start that.
> >
> > Do you have some proposed text to start with?
>
> Add to 1st para of intro, before last sentence,
> just after "1969. ":
>
> "The RFC series therefore has significant heritage
> that seems to have overall been to the benefit of
> the Internet. The RSWG should therefore also consider
> the preservation and propagation of that heritage as
> a goal as it considers process evolution."
>

I don't believe that we should add this text. We should do what's
good for the series and not treat tradition as a major consideration.
People of course are free to argue for heritage in any specific
case, but we shouldn't codify that in the document.



>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"
> >> authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok
> >> as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think
> >> it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that the
> >> LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 process,
> >> i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community
> >> currently want.
> >
> > Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to see?
>
> Somewhere, don't care where:
>
> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various
> administrative actions related to the RFC series and the
> IETF more generally, the LLC holds that position thanks
> to community consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not
> scoped to consider changes to the LLC's authority, such
> changes are within the gift of the IETF community, albeit
> constituted differently from the RSWG (e.g. in some
> iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>
> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully
> you get the gist,
>

This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is
the result of consensus decisions

-Ekr


> Cheers,
> S.
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Eliot
> >
> >
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--00000000000066d87505cf4ae2b6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:54 AM Steph=
en Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,



On 26/10/2021 15:38, Eliot Lear wrote:

> Hi Stephen,

> 

> Thank you.=C2=A0 I have two questions for you below:



Fair questions. I didn't propose any though as

I've not been active in the discussion for a

few months, but since you ask...



(BTW, I'd be fine if someone else wanted to start

over proposing text rather than propose mods to

mine below.)



> 

> On 26.10.21 16:34, Stephen Farrell wrote:

>>

>> Hiya,

>>

>> I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now read
>> the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussion.

>> I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by it, but
>> I don't object.

>>

>> A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't recall
>> being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):

>>

>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some

>> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
>> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation

>> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the

>> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as

>> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a

>> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to

>> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor

>> may be best placed to start that.

> 

> Do you have some proposed text to start with?



Add to 1st para of intro, before last sentence,

just after "1969. ":



"The RFC series therefore has significant heritage

that seems to have overall been to the benefit of

the Internet. The RSWG should therefore also consider

the preservation and propagation of that heritage as

a goal as it considers process evolution."

I don't believe that we should add this text. We should do wha=
t's
 good for the series and not treat tradition as a major c=
onsideration.
People of course are free to argue for heritage in =
any specific
case, but we shouldn't codify that in the docume=
nt.




>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate&qu=
ot;

>> authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok

>> as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think

>> it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that the
>> LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 process,

>> i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community

>> currently want.

> 

> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to se=
e?



Somewhere, don't care where:



"While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various

administrative actions related to the RFC series and the

IETF more generally, the LLC holds that position thanks

to community consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not

scoped to consider changes to the LLC's authority, such

changes are within the gift of the IETF community, albeit

constituted differently from the RSWG (e.g. in some

iasa2-like WG [ref])."



I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully

you get the gist,

This also seems unnec=
essary. Everything about this is
the result of consensus decision=
s

-Ekr




Cheers,

S.





> 

> Thanks,

> 

> Eliot

> 

> 

-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--00000000000066d87505cf4ae2b6--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 17:47:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069993A197A; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:47:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tyqnKEyRdfG9; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10117.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E54A73A197B; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:47:37 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=jX8I0TTdTdceDH3GGQp09zO5+DvdiGugNLXz6c2nRtccw5zfJLKPmuaK96MvwktMRKtjpFTs/geiSaLVK8SbR+PIA1BR6atCJMRgoRhV4eftTZGVrKIPFSKD6U9Ay0mC36ZtNYcrHRonSe/ovKsJhUaxbFD1Dh3S7wpNU0RWrpoOyyebhZ5yNWKNU5w+1HoZEo+oOj+avmlMecLpAI5yQ64eOeDotIrbFGpZWXwMVcnwUy9jSDBhwbKbrmn5qMS9eb58Yq2DqoLwcShzDnp+M3w5nkaA/yTxjqqzzMhLv6Ws1DOFZtDhWQsUiCcw+fT5sf5+/rQyaPeFM+JrUH03+g==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=RP0xYfT7ttqxicaJ5/mCYythFspT0plhPxhTB0jDJfw=; b=hCCWxviCbllRPbDgT6FJgdbNGjiWoBDwJ0y626DG2+eJVSVkwPfzQPaSIS3K2HPE0tu3klnH/8yulXufQ8DX4GPm2onkNGxVBiy2eN/b6JwqpPAi/5y83WM+UYHg9Y4ads1JsoFtsqXXoF/y21+R8KhjANoxIYy/ILQDaOvxQH+F2k2qm2mY1pd/BsHRRUoIWGNKO8Xe5VNh1Zl+I7j4czflcdn+n4yo23cDH95yDj9EVD0jkfUpdK/OYKT45dq8j1bKdmAetqMR9PNOaZ/fCdMIzQRYOncGQ/D+3sXCtj3Nnwns8K9z2SngM38BiZ04/xd5iZAxDnJPekYv0DleAw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=RP0xYfT7ttqxicaJ5/mCYythFspT0plhPxhTB0jDJfw=; b=qN+udBDNhm8yWhoiPBSKSanv29Ctb46fCq9gk1H0vyAu/r6BHg63kdfzSgfBMQNPA2rK53Xlo3a01DbUheocblW/tpb7Am31s+DI4MXDnVg5EWtTUZ9KuVsRdCu5UeW5vGZHGPCjjKvc/+mK0ZFkjt+ygQxcStTNwzWnJ2G+DyxD2sWV3H8CX4BvGHAqsZ4xPZbIur7JRvbeJ86+EF8nFD8D7oRJ1dpPqTJ61TvE/KLbkPyhnM2ogYejK00YznoLUmYcBvYM3oTYsxBR1QXSsWDJBarvatHxKuLDD57hBzuf+nz/D0ilsNSaUhk3pYh4ste1hIHHFIsKcoX9fdsZ9w==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR02MB3222.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:1b::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.16; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:47:31 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:47:31 +0000
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Eliot Lear 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> 
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:47:28 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TophtixXqDfCTFHO9y1FLpwuG19vAAUis"
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM0PR05CA0086.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:136::26) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78) by AM0PR05CA0086.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:136::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:47:30 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 433fe680-e6dc-420b-2bc4-08d998e35b85
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR02MB3222:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:4941;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(31696002)(5660300002)(53546011)(33964004)(6916009)(186003)(8936002)(44832011)(66574015)(21480400003)(316002)(31686004)(4326008)(54906003)(86362001)(786003)(2616005)(36756003)(66946007)(235185007)(6486002)(66476007)(66556008)(83380400001)(2906002)(508600001)(8676002)(38100700002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?d3o1dGFYV2orTHBuMzY2TExaM0NLT2RBcTlpQmRDeERZZEV0bUhUZVNvZ0FY?= =?utf-8?B?Y2tqeTN3MXVhK2EzT0RPL0tQcmJqZHY0MUtEdFgyVXJpbzlnMFlaRm9xcDBX?= =?utf-8?B?QXZOUDlTR0NvcGRtL1ZuMHl1cThBQXhXSEUwcXN1dnE0U3BQclFuUDhGc3di?= =?utf-8?B?Qm9kdUYvK0VDaWNjNDdPdmMyYnlUeno2eUxmM2pCeUt4TzlLSWdWZVpXZFBl?= =?utf-8?B?aldXYjhwRk1XR3VUa244YVJodU8vVzhUSVE1TkN1c09ob2dZaUtOSWVjV0cz?= =?utf-8?B?WW9iR0dUSS9NZUxOZkZ6QTFRdTNXR1FzOWM5Uys3MSt0UWRLVDRPYzEvUjJo?= =?utf-8?B?Nmo3aG9ObVJlV0pyaGhKT0tMM29UVG9Bb0luK1krTEZwWGtJVHVpaFFmR0xI?= =?utf-8?B?dmlUZ012RzZvRTdkejBVa3JwYlVIemhOMXRhTzVZSUpQVEoyZkNwcmczN3BN?= =?utf-8?B?NXpObWgxRGRrc2RQNEt5OHV4OExqSy80Q2lHeTM5cjVLMjlybmZWaUsvMVkv?= =?utf-8?B?UUNMbTNQODdxay8xQW9TVGkyOTV1TS9SOURxUWlTeVNzZ3B5R3c1NnBpcFJG?= =?utf-8?B?SWN1Q1NqcUErOE5vT3hxSnJZdExtTHZSVlgyMmQrSUlrNjlsSzN6am5hS1Fn?= =?utf-8?B?TDJZc09EZUZCYitzVzJwOXZCVVFhVzZ0V1VNYitZU0ZobCt1TUp4d0pQaE8r?= =?utf-8?B?eEwvY3duaHowVEFSMG5oT3pjMFcvOUZja1ZVNDVYT0c4SVpkcHU5M2VCU0NL?= =?utf-8?B?bmFMQTRlejVLS2pkak00RjJnKzMrREpVVTU2WkhTUkp4VTM4b2FpNy9SUXpU?= =?utf-8?B?OVhmUW1oNmx5QitPNjBtT1diT3Q1czBrK2ZXOG04UE04SVFZRXlnUnJ6T3hF?= =?utf-8?B?N0JINE9GTWpxRS9hU1Y1enFMRXlmZkk1MXI3S0pDUkhQY2JmWlNjRFplSUdu?= =?utf-8?B?S1J1N2xSMUl5OU56M08yUnhNT1pJM3M4cHZvVllSYm5KdGFuRTBJalFZM2x5?= =?utf-8?B?bWR2aWEvQm1mSXRiSml5SmJOSUlUMmdqQ3pIaFRtWUljN0U4aG9XeHRxaTVp?= =?utf-8?B?d3JEYWdSN0w4b0JBZ1RzdkdndFF0N0RJa29GWWF4RGlRd0lOdld1VkI4c01Z?= =?utf-8?B?K3AxSDM4UjdnZmJTeVdtcjRrSWpnc2NHcXFNOWY5bTREUmNhSEIvRmU5d3Fr?= =?utf-8?B?azAxZ2NFeWVFSlcydGVSUFdlTVBpb2dONGFWTTNzOG1Ib2JEalUyU3dJeWN0?= =?utf-8?B?TzgzaHlWUzc3UFhjdFB1Y0w2YnNSUUFlbEFWNFVuMkpVenhaZWhQdVRVL3Bx?= =?utf-8?B?OHNEbFJUakYycmhFYXlvcGZjMEhSL3hGUVZOTjAzUERUNU90UlVTSHl1WS9L?= =?utf-8?B?U3FZbTE5VFYrRzZzb0ZnekhKaW11TUdXU3hSK1htdmpTMXJ1ZTVhYzdtZEhU?= =?utf-8?B?ZlFONnU0RDBBb1NDL3htY2FVeHVDTXBhN3NEcXFXNkVSa1hsd21DR0Nvc25M?= =?utf-8?B?MXpKVTJOb0krSWxoeStWK1pJMDlUMVpQSFU2ZTBlVmNlTDZhU2pKQldQOEJT?= =?utf-8?B?M1VwcmhYRGQ0SWp4NkJvTm1zSXpGSStDcmRlMTU2L2NlZ0N2QmJFaTByRWFW?= =?utf-8?B?b2pRazdSZkNKYWxBd0RXQnNaOHpaVTdxTko2emFMS3Q4bFZQUGloZ09xZW1J?= =?utf-8?B?OWVFQmFCQ2ttZ1hKc1FMSFdKL1hTMVBKWGVqRHRxTlNWWFRtQVFFaThJWnU4?= =?utf-8?B?Y3pDYTR4NnB3VWl6WC9kc3g4YURRV1VPSzUxZElrZmhxK3VnU1BJR1FLcHkw?= =?utf-8?B?R05YMFNaRW45TnJ2cSs1NHNIOFM3T3BSTE5OL0lrWVdvcStpb096ZytLdnVU?= =?utf-8?B?allTK1FDOFJCUFNFdWpNUmNRTVRGYlJlRHpGSDA2ZHEwd2xCSUlUU3dVdGUx?= =?utf-8?B?UHNlaFZHQ2lvSDhSS1FRcnFTbGJvaXRjdWRualNadDVnQlBvTisxVVAxYkVw?= =?utf-8?B?ZDdvR1ZUU0lDd0Jnb0NUVkhEUjgvQkJ2UzB4WFZVeVpXdmxsOEhVcmRjaGJG?= =?utf-8?B?WERQc2RnMkZ6eFpvNFNxMUYybFc3SW1NcDN0M2FkRmE3bnAzUy94RTlkVGQ3?= =?utf-8?B?TE5FU21LZ1psNWErMWc0ZkpzZFEyR0piSzE2KzFEOTc4RGFnMVRLbElOcHZH?= =?utf-8?Q?U/o1+SR/i+awL4yiIjZJ02ymw3XS7Z9CrwaSfDTKvaaZ?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 433fe680-e6dc-420b-2bc4-08d998e35b85
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 00:47:31.2296 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: NCZaLeqEUm1gqWZ6aRwKh4wQEB3JAGi64hp6gXyUEDXTpbKGZrkg/+RQCKvoIoew
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR02MB3222
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:47:43 -0000

--TophtixXqDfCTFHO9y1FLpwuG19vAAUis
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VbIWvLvNrEyjaVQnr6EIwtIOdWaLCUWIL";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board ,
 Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>
 <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--VbIWvLvNrEyjaVQnr6EIwtIOdWaLCUWIL
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------012053390E8DF1C6E4EDF191"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------012053390E8DF1C6E4EDF191
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 01:28, Jay Daley wrote:
> For me, the word "ultimate" is used within the context of this model

I do agree that that word is qualified when used in draft-05.
Nonetheless, I think it's not a great idea to cast things in
that way.

> and it=E2=80=99s use doesn=E2=80=99t imply anything beyond that.=20

I'm less sure that the reader will grok that.

> However, I=E2=80=99m
> personally not stuck on that word and "ultimate authority" could be
> replaced with "authority" or "ultimate remit" or ...

"current authority" would be accurate (on a decadal timescale
I guess) but would, I guess, also be as wrong as "ultimate"?

>> IMO the draft could give the wrong impression as to which is the
>> dog and which the tail, esp for readers unfamiliar with the history
>> (which'd be most of the few readers), so I think in this case that
>> kind of added text would be a worthwhile addition.
 >
> That=E2=80=99s a very long stretch=20

I'm one reader of the text who disagrees. This programme
isn't taking place in a vacuum.

> and even if it were possible, the document
> already includes "The IETF LLC is ultimately responsible to the
> community via the mechanisms outlined in its charter" as a
> contraindication.

"ultimate" again then:-)

FWIW, I don't think "responsible to the community" is quite
right - the LLC was established *by* the community and could
(and may, in time,) be replaced by the community. My point is
that it's the community that decides which entities are setup
for what, and it'd be better if we avoided any impressions of
something (other than the community, however ill-defined)
being "ultimately responsible."

Cheers,
S.


--------------012053390E8DF1C6E4EDF191
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------012053390E8DF1C6E4EDF191--

--VbIWvLvNrEyjaVQnr6EIwtIOdWaLCUWIL--

--TophtixXqDfCTFHO9y1FLpwuG19vAAUis
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=Vbd8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--TophtixXqDfCTFHO9y1FLpwuG19vAAUis--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 17:54:57 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAC53A0C19; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:54:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9IRdlVy_n4Hs; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:54:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2115.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D2F43A0DDE; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HSCvBGnzUVh0CVn5NqSIh0E/2ePdghhbIg7Fhvpox/VBljhbE5Ey4R0H4QOGHMGpkPHKRdSoB4TTpvZhPy67C0xjq8S+C7o0AdcRQDoKH3lFnSNLuIR6LxPD/cRanUTe18cntiADKMWBOMlDTsPgRze1l809JImknApfyfqcXXytNg7aFe6T2DSt9DCyfBcbtpK1h+A8O/yld1AoVHmGc0hTDlB2/V8OE+mvBiyhzHZNpdgwyKCBFxV4tBAipfmlY7jigRtkSkHlczJEI8mRX+OaS5TIzVCxNr28yJGk/a7xIDWQqOMQwJfPobDqLANmAPUHYlJqPhX5tKZGxeVI0w==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ycOsQoYiBwgx9Spb/B7iftYtKdgU76ikK6Yg2u2TRpo=; b=RsnkEtjE9Nl+MhW+OUft1mHRuZrJHAtAaMH8TnwQXPdy36IdtZhGpf4M3tw9QqAjEwBy6QUov192OElXxbF2ZzYgjOHWFQtBKuqKB3/BjPFqqwo8bCWhC4uKs2vKIFVlf5jGrvs/4yqfxAaJON3jmf2C9smUCwxzuu4i5YjCAq0ZqTpyqQcempk9/tE46qqVNxIe5+eRWDckOBugMXaxorcib3JyJVbMl8NbZVPMILITWW5V4IzbAG+J1JOBKuMUc5sLG9/xzBnPjbix+/1o5HvgN8oGwix27dY5F2XUTX1L7wNncSkxygGc/FCUi76/jteUZUkYoacoKMmY3u1ZHA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ycOsQoYiBwgx9Spb/B7iftYtKdgU76ikK6Yg2u2TRpo=; b=cL8ov4BW8opr+56Qiei/411aP9RLQpwcRlpcPpW28Db2PG2SIsTW5TLPVKWLlEy3KD24/zjuUVwnfp0xEz76hnNV0pbSPcjMfo4N+eC4eZXgSqJ8BbNpMepH2wuFm7cFUbAfar1b1IUpBCNlIcvBPLPRF8xkSdeQRgcp+Vwm6WFGV09JKpsollpdvrXi65+rK4I+rqsUg6FXboFt4wFff4OyL9Nx7HvyBN2eytXu1tOPxLDLSi3NH82FEVMjRk96fPga6LxtO12IklzelOUipaKrQnBQmAVSDpvsDU6CrtPH+unMSQMqAkbbn5rLEec1RhDYOPP6mEGIVHYJUtWVew==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB8PR02MB5547.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:e7::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:54:44 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:54:44 +0000
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:54:42 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="QtOppGKexIXtWJ2HJfE3vj8akdanMTEzd"
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM4PR0101CA0051.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:200:41::19) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78) by AM4PR0101CA0051.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:200:41::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:54:44 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b8bd45f4-dce5-45d0-ef78-08d998e45de8
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB8PR02MB5547:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:5797;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(508600001)(786003)(2906002)(316002)(8676002)(4326008)(6916009)(235185007)(186003)(53546011)(21480400003)(31686004)(66574015)(44832011)(2616005)(8936002)(5660300002)(54906003)(31696002)(36756003)(38100700002)(6486002)(966005)(83380400001)(66476007)(66556008)(86362001)(66946007)(33964004)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?UzRPMmZTek10UHVwNEdSdVpYMXZLQ2VqVTJFYkcyTW5YRktPdVJMbDlNa2dz?= =?utf-8?B?QlZIUGFYSUZSaWtCZU1KMXVab1NGQ2h6V0NDLzZ5NjQwWXZkY2ZWRThsYW1O?= =?utf-8?B?aytyaTZ1VEhuYkRwZ3M4dUtBYTFtNzVSZ3pNbFRUaXpsWWMxMlJ4b3dXTjgy?= =?utf-8?B?Q3VOUnhibzlNV2Q5NlVEYWN0NGZyWDRaMng3NE5MVnBpMnVyQ2MzRktIcjJM?= =?utf-8?B?T3BUTk0rNnUzOElUSnVnbGFLVWZyNkt4clFIbEpSMlJrV2Q2dmxaaHY2Rkkw?= =?utf-8?B?eTFyUFQwTUEvM3c3UUhkN2RzTDExZ1ZmU0FaeG4wRWJOZjl4UWRQNTJNUDJ0?= =?utf-8?B?VXdzT2RRa1NTWXhDblRpRW1tcnFVanl2R1hzNFNlUExQT1l3cTFRblNBWWRH?= =?utf-8?B?eEFaODBLLzdCVlZ3Ym1lcmI1NlBOQ2J6a3BleWVJUVpURm51blpQdnZDbjJk?= =?utf-8?B?N05ialNWVFVaTDNLOWh0TXVDUkNJYlFmS0wvNGpWajY4NXBqcC9QRTFvckl0?= =?utf-8?B?YzBWT3d5WTJHWkdDMFVCTHlWM2tLUGNKY21CKy9pQmxzdHJJRDVidnVVQUx2?= =?utf-8?B?TzlYVEp0RmV6YytQVWNIK1pLQTZZUWRhMHVzekpWYUN0a1hWRy8xbUszb0sx?= =?utf-8?B?RzJqWFNSRTZQa2dCbHJMYmdXR29HM2RwWUVRQ0pINDl5SmlPallRaHpVZUhF?= =?utf-8?B?cGt2Rmt4T2NQTHl1ZUpYTDNxVVBHTFdkL2hHUmJYcWQwZGpWNnBOckhPeW5j?= =?utf-8?B?VDJCRzlLbllnNmk3K0oza0t4WDZuMkRBa1grUzRpbWQ1eHlCQ1lKclA2cXg0?= =?utf-8?B?aFVqMmdZcC9jRDhzQmMrVlJ3UkxlcVN2blZsRW5FMTNKeGd4RXpnVmZxN2xu?= =?utf-8?B?SlVTWGVJZXdKWlBOV0JUK3RDVytLSEY3U2xnMnhKVTA4TEZIZ0VObytST2FO?= =?utf-8?B?c2dDVUFGMC9pSmh0UlRmSFpGRnFvb2tKTk9hT1ZEczgwV3BJYTJwZEE4c2Jp?= =?utf-8?B?UjBBWVpOWmo1eDlrMWYzVk1rTklmcmlSeVJmVWN1cG9HMmRSVFpPa0NXdUVP?= =?utf-8?B?a0ZzUUtuY1VYOXhPSXF3M2d4eEJ6WnBjMTUveGFCM2IvVGxoMm1SYUEwSXkv?= =?utf-8?B?NnIwY20vVnlSd1RORGRkb3lkS3JncmxlUXZJclllL29vM3BQbm9vK1pvWnky?= =?utf-8?B?cUlsbjllK0lROHBZNmlVTnFnZXF4NFlQdWUvMVNiQmV5c3FSQU1IUHhXOVdH?= =?utf-8?B?VkJUREtaTTV1NXJNcTRiaTZ3aGJxNFNLeVlqaEc4TklPOXpUSXJFbVorLy95?= =?utf-8?B?Wmh1VlRDaXB3MFNBc0xvcGxDaW03SFRjQTB3TElSeWdGYTM3enFuNzdyTnp0?= =?utf-8?B?SnRILzF4R21adEVDNW9mVWI0U0tRU0IxQWY1YW1lNWhOaml5Q3liRmxaQWxu?= =?utf-8?B?cDM1U3k5bGVraVVXV2RMWW5yRXFPR2docTdSV2E1RjdqdmZ6ZVJPNFp1M1ph?= =?utf-8?B?T3ZDT2xWcmNjNFltRWdmVnhqMkt5cWErU0gvVVFGSVJwWmR1MTlzZUJIY1Fs?= =?utf-8?B?T3NtenkxK3BjT0h4V2xkSnY4RnFIQnM3NUV1UE9TcXAxcWIwcjc0Y0lRb3h1?= =?utf-8?B?ZlVGdGtuUVA3WDR0U3NpYWZCbTF0RmZJWUlwbHdhZ2UwTHZHK0FacXEyczRx?= =?utf-8?B?M3dDVXdGNjJlOUtMd0h1SlBBWW84d3lZVlIrWWUvVU9aZVdFaWtuOHA1eG9u?= =?utf-8?B?Sml3VkF4ZFNMU3R3cWJwc0VwcUFsSCsvVWxMN3pEM3NSUURxMmt0emY3T2NS?= =?utf-8?B?WGxaalJubitHNUVHdlpxYzNyL2IzanFZeGd5cWlUbU9MR25KWkhCWWZJdEpo?= =?utf-8?B?SlNkTEVzcitYc1VzY3o0MHJIdVM0R1IzWDRXRmdRVTlMQ1AxYm83WE0zRyti?= =?utf-8?B?Y2JUZkEyY084aFFPUkRzMi9pY0FLT21ubUVWbjJQSyt4TGtyUFdIN0xMQUVt?= =?utf-8?B?UzFrRnRIOFQwdnlqbzFhYjR1R2NFaGJ0Q1JCVjBiTFV3R1NpUmJPS3dWbnQ0?= =?utf-8?B?MVpmWXRtSDM1eldkN3lWL01lV3VSd2dZOVgxdkhib1IvZGdRcHhkWHJVd25j?= =?utf-8?B?NnlEbC8vVmpPOFhCaHdPVS94NzhVajhQNmhrVm5tVFZCK2QydnRld0dyS3Yy?= =?utf-8?Q?78uJhd2XF7c5/rwIoTLpMCOcK6ot1mwHzErFaOcdSvw9?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b8bd45f4-dce5-45d0-ef78-08d998e45de8
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 00:54:44.6537 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: NA7olOWKm3r867KFhsNU5yT5zO6nbPMFBFOB1gMU2WMz8PcQAikMOvTGqd591if6
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8PR02MB5547
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:54:55 -0000

--QtOppGKexIXtWJ2HJfE3vj8akdanMTEzd
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="40CVDM7sY69j9kOH4gMnkrBWk8tZJIbzC";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--40CVDM7sY69j9kOH4gMnkrBWk8tZJIbzC
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------EF5CEDD8230064600BAF4D38"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------EF5CEDD8230064600BAF4D38
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:54 AM Stephen Farrell 
> wrote:
>=20
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 26/10/2021 15:38, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> Hi Stephen,
>>>
>>> Thank you.  I have two questions for you below:
>>
>> Fair questions. I didn't propose any though as
>> I've not been active in the discussion for a
>> few months, but since you ask...
>>
>> (BTW, I'd be fine if someone else wanted to start
>> over proposing text rather than propose mods to
>> mine below.)
>>
>>>
>>> On 26.10.21 16:34, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hiya,
>>>>
>>>> I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now read
>>>> the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussion.
>>>> I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by it, but
>>>> I don't object.
>>>>
>>>> A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't recall
>>>> being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):
>>>>
>>>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
>>>> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
>>>> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation
>>>> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
>>>> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as
>>>> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a
>>>> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
>>>> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
>>>> may be best placed to start that.
>>>
>>> Do you have some proposed text to start with?
>>
>> Add to 1st para of intro, before last sentence,
>> just after "1969. ":
>>
>> "The RFC series therefore has significant heritage
>> that seems to have overall been to the benefit of
>> the Internet. The RSWG should therefore also consider
>> the preservation and propagation of that heritage as
>> a goal as it considers process evolution."
>>
>=20
> I don't believe that we should add this text. We should do what's
> good for the series and not treat tradition as a major consideration.

It's entirely fine to disagree. You don't provide any reason
why we ought discount heritage though - why should we? Do we
really want to ignore all the benefits of an RFC series that
has weathered a number of industry ups and downs and the vast
expansion of the Internet? I don't think we'd be wise to do
that myself.

(And btw, I'm not at all tied to "this text" precisely.)


> People of course are free to argue for heritage in any specific
> case, but we shouldn't codify that in the document.

See above:-)

>>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate"
>>>> authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok
>>>> as they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think
>>>> it'd be better if there were a statement somewhere that the
>>>> LLC only has that position because of the iasa2 process,
>>>> i.e., because that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community
>>>> currently want.
>>>
>>> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to see?
>>
>> Somewhere, don't care where:
>>
>> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various
>> administrative actions related to the RFC series and the
>> IETF more generally, the LLC holds that position thanks
>> to community consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not
>> scoped to consider changes to the LLC's authority, such
>> changes are within the gift of the IETF community, albeit
>> constituted differently from the RSWG (e.g. in some
>> iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>>
>> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully
>> you get the gist,
>>
>=20
> This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is
> the result of consensus decisions

Not yet! We're in the process of attempting to establish
whether or not that's the case so it's not valid to claim
an existing consensus as far as I can see. (That said,
had these topics been discussed on the list already, I'd
of course defer, but I don't think they were - references
welcome.)

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
>=20
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Eliot
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>
>=20

--------------EF5CEDD8230064600BAF4D38
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------EF5CEDD8230064600BAF4D38--

--40CVDM7sY69j9kOH4gMnkrBWk8tZJIbzC--

--QtOppGKexIXtWJ2HJfE3vj8akdanMTEzd
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmF4o1IFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qJ
5g//cIYNluQ/N34fkAZQipfrPDZFWUOlxSE7iuAI/sQPJ3tGYq1cYjOWKJSjQ4jAXqoPoAHYrFfF
jw+0mxwGpk3otEu35mlrBlFuyEiU7VBtIgJVhyQyOKpiOYQhVMK/t/v/gKsXCEBIsWCix2CciNIl
/swjkinp+X4MYgDzZjXJAIjDzoWznuy9dM47I++eHFnwOy8Uc3qHJSbWuivoaivyUDKVwmHWujf0
VReg9gaaBJxjDN8BoVevV0pRF3hdB2XgScbbm15qFiWOob3kY/2sMbfjyJ9DlGuJxIK30aIRcYC/
3mrxR5sxYke3aEX1h7vUipklQJlEeFOGo0G6+6lPWn9u9us0n9Pt2AS874/nWcIbPTktzyWsm++e
9eHtfkBPAnSovIwhciTGpD7oGLKKTIHnWKtkayqst0OSqIANmykn5LI9+MYfKUyb00LJgH4HTsI+
YBsUcB5oACBsTe03zdAzy+kteesdt/1CyGhU95JEo0K6bO//dguYUIvDB7+EeUvC7karh3MuSTUu
bJ+eQpRzIL0KgphBtc1H37epfqfdpoH7lqXEo1fWiU1M4HPV2EzJNbu83lC7BmnBtwBDFGFF2qT3
suYYTvSC8tT00Fcb3PRclAiITD9b+I/qMqrchGapgbvXKfoP06ROHJCykDmJtdJg+qzxp4wQWA/6
Klo=
=VwSa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--QtOppGKexIXtWJ2HJfE3vj8akdanMTEzd--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 18:18:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904883A1A46 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:18:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ffO7DsWcbaVA for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 902E53A1A57 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id v65so1659704ioe.5 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=N5cAdyGyNSSrXEPmJJE0q4g/E4667Nfj4RY05/lcgk4=; b=brnfrQdieaH8HS1PyLNTP+5e/TGOEf2sQBkx3NqdVSPf0nw5aUQIY1fzNZF0jSRhne HnjFwiNCGcAADJEuQm9IecnzRM3JX+fZGH9PJmiEQNgr+0A6Qicyd2NmpnZcsZNIwx0g PzhLpXeFD7RWvO5d/TQyKJDMBB3Lq5ccTrVeey54pakl97A94Yl1JQP4uvCJaE3RkDn+ iw9UQATS71LAOSZddfLqQZ9INqdMUor7Ivp0uxOFzSxk7EuD/xmsWTcB9pCP4O8Lx2K8 cUhT4+/R5D5N8smX2W3e3i4vbzrLSdXmMogz1ey6+dMHXO7rtyNgCcxOBLxfztelta0S frag==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N5cAdyGyNSSrXEPmJJE0q4g/E4667Nfj4RY05/lcgk4=; b=qlc3KUMQhk7nUxcRoCXhzG/GNdURoy0C/gb6mPgW6x4fldabyZ/PNI2dM/FhtE8OOR 6rwRyc8NeUtyBumpUsBJHPSgjcZg9fEC4p/RLwwvUimpxQ4WNqxRQGcBOKaGqYpJMlSu h7fyf9xV385k5a611fUd1nkEVvDrRasYMOJBESLkTYhw1fVwKQdMILaqD8JYPQpZSL8Z 2QuBD88rORAQxDtlY299BFQFK5ckASuYIUGsHP+mTS9F5PK2LbPkl+krRmFpn4IzfHf/ IUdTMmZ+NlL0CPbgYjoP7+v0OGxPtx2ymJ9Vqudt8WWU8Owov81xduczfuVC3LPNsMq7 mrVw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Fh4DCBpEcYXafEbmTtVUkhab/LJ5dJAwMV6wz39ySSIcAMZ/7 3vM+YTL6d4OUyZX2pu63sKGqGE4p97/AilzXbfZKDw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJSmNWKmgC4aW67Y+lX8ZW1yTvD/nH88/FwLXbeamKBZgVRe6DXVALuC9VcvcrS+BfP9N4tVzsd2HtKulNv3c=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16d6:: with SMTP id g22mr18055217jat.19.1635297487490;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:18:07 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:17:31 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8269a05cf4b5d24"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:18:15 -0000

--000000000000d8269a05cf4b5d24
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 5:54 PM Stephen Farrell 
wrote:

>
> Hiya,
>
> On 27/10/2021 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:54 AM Stephen Farrell <
> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hiya,
> >>
> >> On 26/10/2021 15:38, Eliot Lear wrote:
> >>> Hi Stephen,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you.  I have two questions for you below:
> >>
> >> Fair questions. I didn't propose any though as
> >> I've not been active in the discussion for a
> >> few months, but since you ask...
> >>
> >> (BTW, I'd be fine if someone else wanted to start
> >> over proposing text rather than propose mods to
> >> mine below.)
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On 26.10.21 16:34, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hiya,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now read
> >>>> the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussion.
> >>>> I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by it, but
> >>>> I don't object.
> >>>>
> >>>> A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't recall
> >>>> being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):
> >>>>
> >>>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
> >>>> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
> >>>> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation
> >>>> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
> >>>> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as
> >>>> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a
> >>>> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
> >>>> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
> >>>> may be best placed to start that.
> >>>
> >>> Do you have some proposed text to start with?
> >>
> >> Add to 1st para of intro, before last sentence,
> >> just after "1969. ":
> >>
> >> "The RFC series therefore has significant heritage
> >> that seems to have overall been to the benefit of
> >> the Internet. The RSWG should therefore also consider
> >> the preservation and propagation of that heritage as
> >> a goal as it considers process evolution."
> >>
> >
> > I don't believe that we should add this text. We should do what's
> > good for the series and not treat tradition as a major consideration.
>
> It's entirely fine to disagree. You don't provide any reason
> why we ought discount heritage though - why should we?


Well, I think I did provide a reason. "We should do what's good for
the series". You may not happen to find that reason persuasive,
but then I don't find your argument persuasive.


Do we
> really want to ignore all the benefits of an RFC series that
> has weathered a number of industry ups and downs and the vast
> expansion of the Internet? I don't think we'd be wise to do
> that myself.
>

My view here is rather different: what's successful here is that
people want to read IETF standards and not due to any particular
heritage of the RFC series.



> > This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is
> > the result of consensus decisions
>
> Not yet! We're in the process of attempting to establish
> whether or not that's the case so it's not valid to claim
> an existing consensus as far as I can see. (That said,
> had these topics been discussed on the list already, I'd
> of course defer, but I don't think they were - references
> welcome.)
>

I think perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that
all of our governing documents are the result of community
consensus (once published) and so reiterating that here
is unnecessary IMO.

-Ekr


> Cheers,
> S.
>
> >
> > -Ekr
> >
> >
> >> Cheers,
> >> S.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Eliot
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Rfced-future mailing list
> >> Rfced-future@iab.org
> >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> >>
> >
>

--000000000000d8269a05cf4b5d24
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 5:54 PM Steph=
en Farrell <stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,



On 27/10/2021 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:54 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&=
gt;

> wrote:

> 

>>

>> Hiya,

>>

>> On 26/10/2021 15:38, Eliot Lear wrote:

>>> Hi Stephen,

>>>

>>> Thank you.=C2=A0 I have two questions for you below:

>>

>> Fair questions. I didn't propose any though as

>> I've not been active in the discussion for a

>> few months, but since you ask...

>>

>> (BTW, I'd be fine if someone else wanted to start

>> over proposing text rather than propose mods to

>> mine below.)

>>

>>>

>>> On 26.10.21 16:34, Stephen Farrell wrote:

>>>>

>>>> Hiya,

>>>>

>>>> I've stayed out of discussion for a while but have now=
 read

>>>> the draft and agree it seems to reflect the list discussio=
n.

>>>> I'm also ok with the content, though not thrilled by i=
t, but

>>>> I don't object.

>>>>

>>>> A few not-quite editorial comments below that I don't =
recall

>>>> being discussed on the list (apologies if they were):

>>>>

>>>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some=


>>>> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include=
 some

>>>> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagatio=
n

>>>> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
>>>> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage =
(as

>>>> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) bu=
t a

>>>> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
>>>> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
>>>> may be best placed to start that.

>>>

>>> Do you have some proposed text to start with?

>>

>> Add to 1st para of intro, before last sentence,

>> just after "1969. ":

>>

>> "The RFC series therefore has significant heritage

>> that seems to have overall been to the benefit of

>> the Internet. The RSWG should therefore also consider

>> the preservation and propagation of that heritage as

>> a goal as it considers process evolution."

>>

> 

> I don't believe that we should add this text. We should do what=
9;s

> good for the series and not treat tradition as a major consideration.<=
br>


It's entirely fine to disagree. You don't provide any reason

why we ought discount heritage though - why should we? 
Well, I think I did provide a reason. "We should do what&=
#39;s good for
the series". You may not happen to find that =
reason persuasive,
but then I don't find your argument persua=
sive.


Do we

really want to ignore all the benefits of an RFC series that

has weathered a number of industry ups and downs and the vast

expansion of the Internet? I don't think we'd be wise to do

that myself.

My view here is rather dif=
ferent: what's successful here is that
people want to read IE=
TF standards and not due to any particular
heritage of the RFC se=
ries.

=C2=A0

> This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is

> the result of consensus decisions



Not yet! We're in the process of attempting to establish

whether or not that's the case so it's not valid to claim

an existing consensus as far as I can see. (That said,

had these topics been discussed on the list already, I'd

of course defer, but I don't think they were - references

welcome.)

I think perhaps you misunders=
tand me. What I'm saying is that
all of our governing documen=
ts are the result of community
consensus (once published) and so =
reiterating that here
is unnecessary IMO.

-Ekr




Cheers,

S.



> 

> -Ekr

> 

> 

>> Cheers,

>> S.

>>

>>

>>>

>>> Thanks,

>>>

>>> Eliot

>>>

>>>

>> --

>> Rfced-future mailing list

>> Rfced-fu=
ture@iab.org

>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfce=
d-future

>>

> 




--000000000000d8269a05cf4b5d24--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 18:55:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C740B3A1AC0; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:55:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JGaGe9L_u8J9; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10092.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B0BD3A1ABF; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=OYPG5xUTcBAMMU6ptH6GnNGL9aRWaLH2SC7x/o4aGPLB4N+n6ujkA/5OqoxmzBBCt19jVC88cYaxqGHFSULO9JYWj26JVyDdXFDIwI/uKTAwUjjvWoRq3a+KGGJ99J7Su1ytcXH7JwnLcwXqxZf0OnnB4zyD54lwypl/X6yCZrcV/+pZCAPmIcrwhro+Zw31vfOr/HweiGfWGEoesgYj+dHzlKChXUBSHs+Sf8ehjteBYGmrURhzEXwGua8qJPB7YGdAxUsF258Bf88jC9HaBBj2NY2bMkYtOGXaUvysE2tJm+Ev300Bm0IfPe9KQ3GcrjIMdCeYLYPEiOdkoQOL6w==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=7dSYBNa7qtd9yWg6b6bXpaspZWj9H19d9HjVSRqnwnA=; b=lEUco3aX24LlQHcUMtvyFhglfdYxnSZioMiCEfHBoAKLw/0fpeoo/5182R68zO5BNZdx3R31/oLV83KNfpbzU7o7GRj5y/AFrhBlN3liukK39Ni9vBFBnPxARFed/IANE54jrQwNqZbNqIJGcdRDT67yTK2VlZCMA/YAv4vOFq0qcf3E3BZyi9JM2uGbXoETEGfW+hXBdXwsoEYUMp5c3qFcn/90X/2CTYZRoIZdwWzfbiwuxuK4kG74jRv9tctQP6tur7J75SMjkMF8SCICtnFfmgO06JKtTv+jCjRcwp+rD6YG7Myxi/WV5WBHHerA7qPh59NsCPOWEZppCUAJyw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=7dSYBNa7qtd9yWg6b6bXpaspZWj9H19d9HjVSRqnwnA=; b=nuXW6Gca1jsuOomlqtEpL0PMR5GwzT0uvAPf1GQbwJBDMoMdmSTer+8jHZeBbWUEDbsyk5pO+wt6rUiN+t7rv5IgLldt+ezm8oQp1yuXvShtqEw3ogBfYWSK/rVW+6w75ZZfu8rwOVlbBewimYHB93jzoTsSjfHqDgkUweC0vHV/O7JO0KvSPu/oPNN3TIXI5f3wqv7uu41OxJ5kP4Y9vT85aJYdK+2H/XoRv9paz0/w0DNAosZXvuyWHLT5tAD311ujOhj43fVnlfgYFkqE1MX0bpHAut6N3TsrE3K8lyvP5jPEZ6NN+oj/bAoVo88KBEXCriyz6LOQ/eKShjl7bA==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR0201MB2229.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:48::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:55:38 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:55:37 +0000
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie> 
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:55:35 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2V4zCZ7mfuWshGBq3vxQKM48Juq8q5Nx7"
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM0PR02CA0121.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:28c::18) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:ae68:d0ba:d41f:fb78) by AM0PR02CA0121.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:28c::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.13 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:55:37 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 144f1e78-bf74-40aa-4393-08d998ecdf41
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0201MB2229:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:1728;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(38100700002)(186003)(2616005)(316002)(53546011)(21480400003)(83380400001)(31686004)(786003)(508600001)(6916009)(86362001)(6486002)(4326008)(54906003)(235185007)(2906002)(66556008)(66946007)(5660300002)(36756003)(66476007)(8936002)(44832011)(8676002)(31696002)(66574015)(33964004)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?ZnhPQUxDNDY3K3JFUkZweDVwVjRXOE5qYWF5ZjgxQjhQVGpGbk5COTI4NGY3?= =?utf-8?B?MjVmcndERjE3Y2ljVXJidEdqZ1ZmKzBTREN0bS83YjJ1M2pIRkdmQmVaNFlB?= =?utf-8?B?aGtSSWpabi9CYWpiNXZ1VEtIZGYwTDJVTm80UVN0eWE2TTg4TXNlMEV6dWhC?= =?utf-8?B?cUNmclUvSlVkRGtYTktUSDlQWUc1aDNvMmhCNG43dW0wQlVyYVYwY2RkYWdK?= =?utf-8?B?bDFKWm1tZjdEWk5sdm9NcWMvdGJuWmlkODJHK09NR0FGTWdibGh6dmVHVytG?= =?utf-8?B?RVY1ekpRUEhweFY3TTFQU0d0M1pkQWw3NXJxd2dUeTR6elNOVldpRlUvRm9J?= =?utf-8?B?eGRZMnFFVXlySmdMQ2NCY1dzTVhKaDdnZVZ1U2t6dUZaaDdna2NXWWFlRGRx?= =?utf-8?B?b0wveXpSR0FkcitwOUo2NmhUSUFhNUhVQVoveVJvNHcxdWpNN3JCRGJ5S1BL?= =?utf-8?B?bktjMEhkcEFOQ3F4bGxTL0pVWC82TXdEejJ1U0VsMUNBQ1AyUlUvYzhrcVhW?= =?utf-8?B?emEwNS92alpzejRFNmhZN2M4RVR3LzlwL0JqbXNET3NVa1IrbTdVMllERzVF?= =?utf-8?B?NU1GV3pGQXNoSFZSSXAxQXJmb0E1T3Uva241MEJ0NXpZb3BkYnR1QTZVelBT?= =?utf-8?B?NlRDNzVqYjlHNkY1bDU5elErbnNxdFlUSDFQdTR2ZUdkRnVXcC9rNFUyaEhC?= =?utf-8?B?Um40RVNBR2d2bTVLcDlWUVdhQjFjZU96T1Zwb1gwZ0h4VVhWSEJHc3FiK3hX?= =?utf-8?B?VmVxaXJhMWRFQWVaRHZpbDVYU0hrYUFVQng5QVUzeFV0amlUaFRCdG5kYXBL?= =?utf-8?B?aTlUTjRnTW9hVlI2NHVOZUtKVlNXeUdjUTg1aHI5TEV4Q3NxZnhnODhjNjcr?= =?utf-8?B?cnFJeXJLc1FaVGJkdmlTOWhsZDhiaEd6WHVpVmxNVDZyc1dpdGdHSGcybUtD?= =?utf-8?B?NE1laWdHSldMMUkrV2s5Q1FnNndwWnVRNit3Z29lN1NrRE50akVvWHUvckx2?= =?utf-8?B?eG1UZ3NTSHNBbUtKL2VUYTVHbCsrUjJOK2ZVc1VORkFmclRpaWdqV091RXd5?= =?utf-8?B?U2F0QWRSQ1Y1Q3lmYWVWT1NLMk9iczJ0V29uTncyRnlWYy9udmRmaEJjRVZO?= =?utf-8?B?TUMzY0tlQVlwV09FMnhRa29adG1md3pUS3pQNnlZT2IrcCtlQXZGU3gwM3Ur?= =?utf-8?B?QUtJTGtrcUFUUS9zUDMrMysvVnFMbUhTU1BmTlNwMWdDUThPc1JPRlc0bTVS?= =?utf-8?B?dVZ0NDl1SkYzN05TVTVIajBveDZYemhNZzFyenFyKzBYT2xMZkRwc0FMMzEv?= =?utf-8?B?NjhyWnN6Q2U5bTIrcDJCSjZ1QU5FRTM5WERxcll4SVZYa3lSa0s3ZktvT1ZY?= =?utf-8?B?emNhOXZmcHhqK21YQlRRbWZGT0dLa3cycHN0a0N1SW9HeWNTMzE3YmRaM3Bn?= =?utf-8?B?R1JLYTdXYjE2NE9Fekp3WHRzSlY0R2d3OHZ6cEFLUGVOeXp1aU1UT3FWOEo1?= =?utf-8?B?RzF5dThPWHJpU2dQYmxKUS9zSUMrbDJBbUZkSUxrRzR0V2ZTL1hqd1lmWlht?= =?utf-8?B?bnhEb2ZQMHZBOCtmNC83U3BHVHRpTHlZQWZKcEIzMkhoTDJWN2s4Mkxwc1hM?= =?utf-8?B?dFI0bzBldTNYSVhqMlFhU281RkM0YnN0RFpoTXYycEwrU1o1Q1B6bSttOFV3?= =?utf-8?B?YnBiY09HY3VOOWxYbEpZM1haWmFMZjM0RGVLN002T3gxMi9hd1ZuTjVGbkF2?= =?utf-8?B?bU91YWMxcGEzL1hDWnJjMlN6UTEvdWx2ZmI0YWdJbFV0R2pIZUorTHRkaDhm?= =?utf-8?B?ZHFvdE1wQ3BwV3ZQVUpmMEZWa3NzZnlnNFpxTFVyc0JBbi82ekNYUzdSUUF0?= =?utf-8?B?eWFaU0lEUkVBZFdnOTBtV0ErZ29SSlVqaEJZNEV3dmtOQlY4K3M0RFV2Sllo?= =?utf-8?B?UXZ1R215Nk5hUkhVTmhjQ1lyaUJlb3pKMHEyTkhMQUlielUvN0ZScXhIc29y?= =?utf-8?B?YitFWDdKZnY4T1pGTGZHOEdsL05mTGdITHRVSFN1S0MwTHQ3cWJFMGYwRitq?= =?utf-8?B?MittSElvOFRrMFlmYlhzeDBwWEpEdFR1TWlDd2FWUllMTXFBNDNnT1VwOTJN?= =?utf-8?B?UzNxVU81TXF5YnRsNUY5Z2JhMWpwaG1oZEJqeGI3RTliSGxJb3h3QTBQQ3BL?= =?utf-8?Q?5UGWvfnc1D3K0VaCtXju4tCM8M1ej0sDYl8O1bjj6wku?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 144f1e78-bf74-40aa-4393-08d998ecdf41
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 01:55:37.8813 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: sGXADfUk8FtMSE2tDAR/1vpdF/o1Oljt00t6OhcaXMCvrGD+xeZ1DIJRfTvD9+7t
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0201MB2229
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:55:50 -0000

--2V4zCZ7mfuWshGBq3vxQKM48Juq8q5Nx7
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="if1LLiob0KjKU5ye8NdEVkBJxcnhaB5Fv";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--if1LLiob0KjKU5ye8NdEVkBJxcnhaB5Fv
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------00A1EE67204428D23303D0B2"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------00A1EE67204428D23303D0B2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 02:17, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=20
> Well, I think I did provide a reason. "We should do what's good for
> the series".=20

ISTM that "the series" in the above is way less meaningful
if one ignores the heritage. My own impression is that the
RFC series includes some crap (to which I've contributed;-)
but also many gems, and the series (plus list archives)
exposes the evolution of that history (e.g. if one considers
RFC822 and successors) in a significantly useful manner.

Ignoring that, and assuming that only the latest take on
some topic, or mode of expression, is all the RSWG ought
care about, seems to me very short-sighted. Especially
for the RSWG we're in the process of establishing.

But we seem to agree that the "good of the series" ought be
a goal for the RSWG, yet that isn't stated anywhere in the
draft we're discussing. I think fixing that would be a fine
thing for us to do. I'd welcome other offers of text that
try capture that part of the series' heritage as a goal for
the putative RSWG.

> You may not happen to find that reason persuasive,
> but then I don't find your argument persuasive.

Again, disagreeing is fine and we've done it before:-)

>> Do we
>> really want to ignore all the benefits of an RFC series that
>> has weathered a number of industry ups and downs and the vast
>> expansion of the Internet? I don't think we'd be wise to do
>> that myself.
>>
> My view here is rather different: what's successful here is that
> people want to read IETF standards and not due to any particular
> heritage of the RFC series.

Yet you used the "good of the series" phrase. To me that
implicitly implies more than just "the latest set of IETF
standards."

That said, I totally agree we ought improve the ways in
which readers can implement from current standards (e.g.
via something better than errata) but alongside that, we
really shouldn't ignore decades of heritage while we try
improve things.

>>> This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is
>>> the result of consensus decisions
>> Not yet! We're in the process of attempting to establish
>> whether or not that's the case so it's not valid to claim
>> an existing consensus as far as I can see. (That said,
>> had these topics been discussed on the list already, I'd
>> of course defer, but I don't think they were - references
>> welcome.)
>>
> I think perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that
> all of our governing documents are the result of community
> consensus (once published) and so reiterating that here
> is unnecessary IMO.

Fair enough. The other thread about the use of "ultimate"
may result in a good outcome, but if we do agree that "the
series" is more than just the current IETF standards then
perhaps we ought also consider a readership that are not
really part of the development of those standards for whom
reading that the LLC having "ultimate" authority may just
add to confusion, rather than reduce confusion.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
>=20

--------------00A1EE67204428D23303D0B2
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------00A1EE67204428D23303D0B2--

--if1LLiob0KjKU5ye8NdEVkBJxcnhaB5Fv--

--2V4zCZ7mfuWshGBq3vxQKM48Juq8q5Nx7
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=ZCIM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--2V4zCZ7mfuWshGBq3vxQKM48Juq8q5Nx7--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 19:02:03 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E953A0063; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.12
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Z/XzXh5K; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=U6g1N1xK
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id moJOZYHh4_3X; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A88AB3A0062; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A274E5C0246; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:01:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:01:53 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=E r3kKSQFuwB/udPxmaeCUgH9XgZJY4CyVRhwJPLm51A=; b=Z/XzXh5KeS4rAH1vy ZPDWz5pZwpy1iSppdp92Qbpgmt+9f5JUazIBQR7pLH39iQdeyqcMXLQpFDZuk7Jl mF/wZQdkchovlrAxejN4KDAMbQ5F8M20S+hmEzt61YMYSFNs2U/GFhy6rnTVs8a8 0mV8Pa4o55KeMr0gyUH79GVSCF/4qaZgnFYAA6A4KJwVQ8wsQFwK+WRzVShzeLXT POLNDNyd6/kBXF8my9C5M4k2wD+jB9MKj7Pj33l80ilVyh7dl8b31sSdQtWg/040 hmXZ1PFyLMBNrkrPOfhFxhK7ozfzs6NoHhhWSGWxY42glq0O8BV+F3jAuX73k2rO e0VHA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Er3kKSQFuwB/udPxmaeCUgH9XgZJY4CyVRhwJPLm5 1A=; b=U6g1N1xKaAxRhC3XzTlRxJL0YLyrBNwBPUmNu7d1OEtZ+gPLQjGRw2K5N U8ESAF1UB7U0VRBPLlXTkJps+09DkxqlG+Hx0cMV1jv6gMJv3gvCTHFqjvIF27VC pv+NfoG6pHXmNyfYUfaqeZTpOnO5okNJOJIe0ezWJkXz5N7dpBNexxxRSNwXA7pc 5GwDWYRR+P1E2SSk7bioS/TJBUA9WyWrEL+MHiER45mMCjLOmzIFDXPhQOvmpfq8 H59gEbH/b1PTleGumAT3Tv2yGkScPT80+maUl5Q7kJdYtWcOkVBtpf8jUFJJeurN m2or8SF3lgCbayKvZUcMyiuPoEfMw==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefledggeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:01:50 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:01:46 +1100
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <3D1B0153-6378-465C-ADA8-84688C997859@mnot.net>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> 
To: Stephen Farrell 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:02:00 -0000

I don't even know what this means -- does it boil down to 'keep the good =
things' without a definition of 'good'?=20


> On 27 Oct 2021, at 1:34 am, Stephen Farrell =
 wrote:
>=20
> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some
> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some
> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation
> of the positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the
> RSWG. I don't think we ought try define that heritage (as
> that'd likely be hard/controversial and very nitty) but a
> total lack of guidance along those lines seems wrong to
> me. That might take a bit of wordsmithing but the editor
> may be best placed to start that.

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Tue Oct 26 19:05:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117C23A00B2; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ed7a-ojzT7N0; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:05:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr140132.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.14.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C724D3A00AD; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ZfFBhL1MiN246mJeMvwTr6PPWfnmf3kkiwCwVd0t52N2A/eC8QaVXAh5fqwymjXHecpqm8GsKRC6jY7hgv51CiIrUvEtj1XwlRrohwkHyd5o0zNnJUdazUv71THPF5SJvhoIc+GsFbrNMJ2xPpHEvQ4zYS9NN5HDOb4fLHyju/frxUreDy1KFvp7WthRoa6/NxxzwdQzGkR+8pV6DAI7K6tmJ4i0zh7qLBGOcr5jipIcXKcImoLT1/tqsTEqXsxcp979FgzApoKgRyDW/eYMIX5mU+/6eVn8h7voiMBvEnfQs8/2HuBy5/CiZwJ2EC1p21EQprX7S886jDwAiZncMA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=AHO56TqYAK5WUjvjPMnYA4tWXJzy3VhKaoXwSCgBbwA=; b=PbyCTqYcaiDzZmpjHC4AEAu/tNEtWgf8xPYmQ9Kud1OLZ1b8jLOJUPMhWIEZ7juwWlr77nzsv+fktBG1TRPtAvjXODuiBXELD8Q3wyqzcGi9GSow82J3WdZOs2yjCT4LHag/cubcn24b+Y8aBYWqlThQs0psAGjq/jxkzUj3xCHQczKmWmbY4b7GOrI+lcpbueb7w6CLYTeIr9T8wWX/cRGHeqKSevWLgrBLXXvlJdz9/Peps90D9P/jn7jUI8WtW3WyNPOEtV+DXFJ9vH/sACw5naE/yz68IP243I8mcJkA5a4K/hLNnnEgxjemkw9p0HAOT+8cg/0ywuBvxiQXKg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AHO56TqYAK5WUjvjPMnYA4tWXJzy3VhKaoXwSCgBbwA=; b=uurpL5HuRFBs09cwtmhDjgXVhb9UMQ74Y7ZoVpsuQPumJ2kOyhwEMraYuUQHxZKXyduqEt9/u0nZaQJYZ5z4F33Gu+Bb1sGbFz4zLrQk1CNmm6I9YgPhqIt7qVJ06WDoMcch1XGnysHLERIKZyHRYQRoPwXOBC4PGgrhhDzXwZr66N5Z6RvFV/6rUSFUV1WYLnyhejRo3XEtsBysa+Ert277o0keGGb+4HmOy/lxWj2cLeEGvhrAobgK+eSNUj4FVd0ZMKyh3PjEJx8Bi0QMm5cvK9xVAoR4CAeOewyFqMg9VeN15TYO4CCLLCYZYfxYYxWdUcGigRRHUsLWOO6g3A==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB4394.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:70::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:04:57 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:04:57 +0000
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <3D1B0153-6378-465C-ADA8-84688C997859@mnot.net>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <13011970-d1e4-807c-fe13-225effc60514@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:04:54 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <3D1B0153-6378-465C-ADA8-84688C997859@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SizRh2Y2XfSYVLqRZE0PcooEItFkr4fvC"
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM4PR0501CA0054.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:200:68::22) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by AM4PR0501CA0054.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:200:68::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:04:56 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 61004073-e5f7-4ea2-436c-08d998ee2ca5
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB4394:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:1265;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(66574015)(83380400001)(21480400003)(38100700002)(33964004)(5660300002)(31696002)(6916009)(8936002)(956004)(2906002)(8676002)(31686004)(86362001)(235185007)(54906003)(316002)(36756003)(16576012)(2616005)(6486002)(966005)(53546011)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(4326008)(186003)(26005)(786003)(508600001)(44832011)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?Rml5U3lQdW4vRit1OWh3U25tL2JQcGxINVFnVkRPY090TVUwY2Zuay9HWVl5?= =?utf-8?B?VlVTYUd3bkVPQys3RUdJa1FGbmNEenE0Rnc0Z3Q0WnRTSm5kWDEvZW0ycExY?= =?utf-8?B?Y25KM1NsTWQzajlyVGNDRHJrSjZudjkwSStQbnF2SHgwd2RCRFBDRzE2bXBx?= =?utf-8?B?Vm9zcnF1RldCS1ZWTGdQMUZJdjk0Z1gzMkMvWnNNZzlMdXV1NXdWR1BYZVN0?= =?utf-8?B?K0xTUHk0bUN6cDBTRzdlQjd2RWlzMDB5WncvUGRxKzExbFJtTXdYc25rWS9O?= =?utf-8?B?NVdCVjNTNFJGVkR1bEpSVzVhWU1sRnZBcXJtMm5neWpwZ2g4K3pWZHhidU54?= =?utf-8?B?R1lwOExoVEZUQzdYaUpENHFUTEF0TzVYbmliSjUrWjZ1UDdLT3BNdEZzSlp4?= =?utf-8?B?V0JudkJyU0NEVEtGblo4SWNUZ05QcFlzYVNJUzRNYzJOWlZkTXdZWmR5WnpM?= =?utf-8?B?NEFmN3o5bGk1eUZnSTdnNm42QW4wcE5uNGJoUEhhd0U4RTZtZWVHdlJoYTdN?= =?utf-8?B?RGdoWE5aenVXUjRVbjBHRDFGZW1kd1RzMjNCRGpZcStLQ3VOYWZMYnZLNVp5?= =?utf-8?B?TUlpV0hSbHEweUxwQ1VLaytOa2RkNHUwVVkvRVlPVjZTNDVyRjhYSnNZN2pY?= =?utf-8?B?Y2JZYlBGT3A3RVNiWU1GWUlaUmlPWnBCUytEdmJnbEgxVW80U1ZVUEtzdTFS?= =?utf-8?B?TzhWNTZGaWNwZVdCd2NVZ3p4V0lYblNMRThmbGE1UHJibkJpMzU4VStnamN5?= =?utf-8?B?NjN3d2xHZmNDWWxkMnpQVElXR0wweGZQTjB4NEdhMjBiMG4yenpQTXEwNzVz?= =?utf-8?B?WDZwYzV4b1BHK2xUMEMveVdVRTZUbXFYQWdZZUhZdjFseGNGb2lvL0FSRG9h?= =?utf-8?B?cXp2MVJmWTVkajFoY3ZKRFRPRGRtRnVUY1JONDQzVk5oRFA1RVc5ak9lZlFv?= =?utf-8?B?RkZWbWthN2FXWS9sMjdYNkdBSTdxeENNNE1BU3JrbG0rbVBHR0ZDMnBtajN2?= =?utf-8?B?VkdBSnlJMkF4R050RTJaSzVRWWpwdjBhL0grNFBLN1dxZ1pOTnJMSHd2NWhk?= =?utf-8?B?ZFJKbG9HYkdTM09zWFR1dnp2SlNGRUc0RTNGL3RSZ2didjF0K2lickthMG9m?= =?utf-8?B?bjBlVFh4LzA4SURZakNsT0VReFpkL3ZoNFpUdlg2UDFGSVphTkVuT0hNcDg5?= =?utf-8?B?K1Y5QmY2TTgyWVZrL2VMYVdsNVhxOWozakMxRzl4ajBwWmdIRWY1YitPRVJv?= =?utf-8?B?SEYzYytzcEExVHB1VncxNlhPKzBJekc3L2N3K0w2QXlnV3BiVjNvSnpjVk1h?= =?utf-8?B?ZkJGYktxTnd3cGU0NVhMV3dPWTZhMVllUlhTRlh6c3QzVnJmeklrNzNyRmhk?= =?utf-8?B?RGVIK09UMDFRaFVKOEpyZlBGN0t1RGF1SmMwVmc2TkhvQzZCOEt5MXNCRUY1?= =?utf-8?B?US94V1pRWjVlUWxlNDhyK05iR2J5MGpURGRMVE1vcFhnZ1l0WGttOXBwQVhY?= =?utf-8?B?bGowQ0laTy91dFFWd1Q2aVhNdExaQmtnQTFjb0NHZXF0YmgwSjZ3OW10TmIw?= =?utf-8?B?R05wM3dsK2x5RFV1M1BsVUcwMWVmWWJwbEFtZFFWNXpDTkZ6YWVNUDIvSDc5?= =?utf-8?B?ZlpZK1JHc2hMbmZNOEtkak1EbXNzVThTU002VVJ5SGlYaHNoUkN1UjBQVTgr?= =?utf-8?B?K3FlSXdaQVh4YUhNMlcyTUVUNU51L3lqM3J3d3IvNmtYVGphRmVSY04yVG5u?= =?utf-8?B?aXZIZUtiOExianZZME11bVc3ek5uWi9Kd0VXak0yZmcyaE5FNUxlM0tjSHZt?= =?utf-8?B?WE9xQTRONnVPa2JNOXdKUmw3NElLUHE4bDN5NS9uNU40VnZaU2UxQncvZXhw?= =?utf-8?B?dmdwQjlFSnZBQktNMVNnd2FoT082U25uc0ZlYUM2ZUpHV09IblNFN05pb01a?= =?utf-8?B?eUI4Q2lQUXd0OXdINktPMldTaWNTVWw0M01XdGRlL2FEeUJrM3dxS0cxOFdD?= =?utf-8?B?ZTVFRzRRWUdDNmE2RytycnNHRHQ3a1Y1QnRjWWN0NUhGLzNHcGVzSVBuUTdi?= =?utf-8?B?UUhNYTcxT1FENWsydGw0NWNCMUxMaDhPNG1vVXJuU2M5dnl3QVdJZ1dPYkx6?= =?utf-8?Q?4IQA=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 61004073-e5f7-4ea2-436c-08d998ee2ca5
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 02:04:57.0021 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: yLshFEmv0THlWTZoEY415ap20wrzPaTJ867BJwSx3Z7ThfRJ8p3HOiVcWZVQD9kR
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB4394
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:05:09 -0000

--SizRh2Y2XfSYVLqRZE0PcooEItFkr4fvC
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="F1bH5E10uhpFvvnQsjMIdeRZYRHuLDGdu";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <13011970-d1e4-807c-fe13-225effc60514@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 <3D1B0153-6378-465C-ADA8-84688C997859@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <3D1B0153-6378-465C-ADA8-84688C997859@mnot.net>

--F1bH5E10uhpFvvnQsjMIdeRZYRHuLDGdu
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------634E897E10B83102AB78E361"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------634E897E10B83102AB78E361
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 03:01, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> I don't even know what this means -- does it boil down to 'keep the
> good things' without a definition of 'good'?

Eliot pinned me down already so you're late:-)

But yes - I think we should try find some words that
guide the RSWG towards preserving the best of the RFC
series without us trying to define that "best" (since
we'd fail if we tried;-).

Cheers,
S.

>=20
>=20
>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 1:34 am, Stephen Farrell
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>> - There is only brief mention that the RFC series has some=20
>> heritage. I think that'd be better expanded to include some=20
>> guidance for the RSWG that the preservation and propagation of the
>> positive parts of that heritage is a goal for the RSWG. I don't
>> think we ought try define that heritage (as that'd likely be
>> hard/controversial and very nitty) but a total lack of guidance
>> along those lines seems wrong to me. That might take a bit of
>> wordsmithing but the editor may be best placed to start that.
>=20
> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20

--------------634E897E10B83102AB78E361
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------634E897E10B83102AB78E361--

--F1bH5E10uhpFvvnQsjMIdeRZYRHuLDGdu--

--SizRh2Y2XfSYVLqRZE0PcooEItFkr4fvC
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=Mj4o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--SizRh2Y2XfSYVLqRZE0PcooEItFkr4fvC--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 19:06:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21673A00B2 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NeALL4FEFubZ for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9B83A03EE for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id j6so1357255ila.1 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VHec4KkLdUht3Qq3QkgORpBTZ2ENKfVlrmPbAdU3Mmg=; b=ld4wzbgUN5wqr1KdfRTiyGlydn61wiajGgo1+CDgDMtQtScrMujEGhO8TNTRDQm7MA FEHXSma5sR53eWPtEn98BpoNJB/Ati4DZ4ibN+1uVjqnsqBOD8vQWiFTGmfgjgzb8vTJ +df8+nu+jOF6rMS9cERFI94kF71NK9NEMXQcwe3LIExUAR/Kb4jTB6/ZhzySt4rnxmyU pSm/148CcMuEMGKDLbrM489YLlyixUc/70Hp1E7dLcxijs+uFefQea72jhvv85JtsqNx ZBTnVZ15erv4Ff0DrYIDYCqx00/IoKloVjm5kwiW7mPrnws3Ec5kJH1NKLWHpYtIkmow iBwg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VHec4KkLdUht3Qq3QkgORpBTZ2ENKfVlrmPbAdU3Mmg=; b=Aq+OcUWuSurocVSL2wJ0cMoCr0dZ0lO3lCd5tL9ExTVpHQQTwDa5kgLMJoPbjKC9+k jYl4soA0/7cmPDaW8kyUW9gEk7Z1CN/fPERJntPf6o/B6sITENcezBG2WuPDpm1m6Vm8 yNBjZ4VyZZ8aAyMye5G0ZwhGNRPrr/vyJ6U97NtdRdPMct010ARHK0Tbb5BLSYsgTDmu wKY67uwrIWAKHNwOQdDRNWqZau1TZW0xO6CZ87iZTPq83CN73XGf9MvygtZtq+4TsFO0 uDHxNk+yjxDg4QWtbcaAAtl67gQhgmP209pvm7GdE4tD+xITdEhi2tVFNWOlQaaolI/E CEvg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334+CVgZFNjH5YZGI199WpHS3h33+qTAdWMHrqZoOKvsQ90mjJj G3LO2Ysg12Rn6LR358N0HRd4hxZxPqfxjv3VWVfTsg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxTcPJtnLI43ZJjPvwnzPfiTS0Xp8SNT7mY0mfmFAUW1iJDR7kWshvCaQ9xyttmaP18mKaBHfF6z96yZf9pWI=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:164d:: with SMTP id v13mr16080419ilu.10.1635300390334;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:05:54 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000de06df05cf4c0a8d"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:06:37 -0000

--000000000000de06df05cf4c0a8d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 6:55 PM Stephen Farrell 
wrote:

>
> Hiya,
>
> On 27/10/2021 02:17, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >
> > Well, I think I did provide a reason. "We should do what's good for
> > the series".
>
> ISTM that "the series" in the above is way less meaningful
> if one ignores the heritage.


I only meant it in the sense of the "collection of documents we
will be publishing".


But we seem to agree that the "good of the series" ought be
> a goal for the RSWG, yet that isn't stated anywhere in the
> draft we're discussing. I think fixing that would be a fine
> thing for us to do. I'd welcome other offers of text that
> try capture that part of the series' heritage as a goal for
> the putative RSWG.
>

As I said, I am not in favor of this.


> My view here is rather different: what's successful here is that
> > people want to read IETF standards and not due to any particular
> > heritage of the RFC series.
>
> Yet you used the "good of the series" phrase. To me that
> implicitly implies more than just "the latest set of IETF
> standards."
>

Well, maybe, but I doubt much more. The existing documents are already
published and I think we should make decisions that will best serve the
documents we plan to publish in the foreseeable future. I'm not particularly
invested in the notion of the "RFC Series" as a separate thing.



> That said, I totally agree we ought improve the ways in
> which readers can implement from current standards (e.g.
> via something better than errata) but alongside that, we
> really shouldn't ignore decades of heritage while we try
> improve things.
>

Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for that
reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document


> >>> This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is
> >>> the result of consensus decisions
> >> Not yet! We're in the process of attempting to establish
> >> whether or not that's the case so it's not valid to claim
> >> an existing consensus as far as I can see. (That said,
> >> had these topics been discussed on the list already, I'd
> >> of course defer, but I don't think they were - references
> >> welcome.)
> >>
> > I think perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that
> > all of our governing documents are the result of community
> > consensus (once published) and so reiterating that here
> > is unnecessary IMO.
>
> Fair enough. The other thread about the use of "ultimate"
> may result in a good outcome, but if we do agree that "the
> series" is more than just the current IETF standards then
> perhaps we ought also consider a readership that are not
> really part of the development of those standards for whom
> reading that the LLC having "ultimate" authority may just
> add to confusion, rather than reduce confusion.
>

No, not really. Those people aren't going to read this doc, and even
if they were, if they don't understand the consensus structure, they're
going to have bigger problems than the word "ultimate".

-Ekr


> Cheers,
> S.
>
> >
> > -Ekr
> >
> >
>

--000000000000de06df05cf4c0a8d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 6:55 PM Steph=
en Farrell <stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,



On 27/10/2021 02:17, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> 

> Well, I think I did provide a reason. "We should do what's go=
od for

> the series". 



ISTM that "the series" in the above is way less meaningful

if one ignores the heritage.

I only meant i=
t in the sense of the "collection of documents we
will be pu=
blishing".



But we seem to agree that the "good of the series" ought be

a goal for the RSWG, yet that isn't stated anywhere in the

draft we're discussing. I think fixing that would be a fine

thing for us to do. I'd welcome other offers of text that

try capture that part of the series' heritage as a goal for

the putative RSWG.

As I said, I am not =
in favor of this.



> My view here is rather different: what's successful here is that
> people want to read IETF standards and not due to any particular

> heritage of the RFC series.



Yet you used the "good of the series" phrase. To me that

implicitly implies more than just "the latest set of IETF

standards."

Well, maybe, but I dou=
bt much more. The existing documents are already
published and I =
think we should make decisions that will best serve the
documents=
 we plan to publish in the foreseeable future. I'm not particularly
invested in the notion of the "RFC Series" as a separate t=
hing.

=C2=A0

That said, I totally agree we ought improve the ways in

which readers can implement from current standards (e.g.

via something better than errata) but alongside that, we

really shouldn't ignore decades of heritage while we try

improve things.

Given the number of peo=
ple who seem invested in that heritage,
I think the risk that we =
will underweight that heritage is minimal.
I think the risk is fa=
r greater that we will overweight it, and for that
reason I am op=
posed to any text of this form in the document




>>> This also seems unnecessary. Everything about this is

>>> the result of consensus decisions

>> Not yet! We're in the process of attempting to establish

>> whether or not that's the case so it's not valid to claim<=
br>
>> an existing consensus as far as I can see. (That said,

>> had these topics been discussed on the list already, I'd

>> of course defer, but I don't think they were - references

>> welcome.)

>>

> I think perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that

> all of our governing documents are the result of community

> consensus (once published) and so reiterating that here

> is unnecessary IMO.



Fair enough. The other thread about the use of "ultimate"

may result in a good outcome, but if we do agree that "the

series" is more than just the current IETF standards then

perhaps we ought also consider a readership that are not

really part of the development of those standards for whom

reading that the LLC having "ultimate" authority may just

add to confusion, rather than reduce confusion.

No, not really. Those people aren't going to read this doc, an=
d even
if they were, if they don't understand the consensus s=
tructure, they're
going to have bigger problems than the word=
 "ultimate".

-Ekr




Cheers,

S.



> 

> -Ekr

> 

> 




--000000000000de06df05cf4c0a8d--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 19:15:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B4E3A0A2C; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:15:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PBu2TdsR2LN; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2131.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68DB53A09FE; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=gQGdmoEx7gUXgCLPVrqHbTtZw4o3TubKMsVoy+phiRIU2sfzPDwlThn/+N3qAURozkzFgEQflDG49BtatI1lMKE0drPINaeuqPjnb2WEGUESj5mqyVi/oLQYlnS8MoFuHs58opPlUhhNJ8gNqO+ckVzw43NICv7xRZ2R5aP41AKmveiUSsd3SGS0e7qA+6yQFsp5P+3RHz1/28gV+ruu/xYCg3YbMn+EtXgWC1iZWjvDs1+DAQCNk5scoLZ3+qdlcrHT2pgQn6pKFTlqJfxVVMEIwbyOWyNwh326+aClyriMaqDKMOdFKHfXKznXUGRcTWtUh/8ZjblfC/QoppURJw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=+PLsFw/7l5x0qOJmT6k+YeArHfsQM+ThRqImmR/8wrU=; b=U4KJhyODZVuD0oM6TaJKwkxGTGIK0iqc+ehFkft/u4qtv6f7yJS4VOPDfC90DVvgoGDOblqUQTNQSrKOyaMqPv00lcE0xRGdmn/C+GfOuFmImdchDbSp1jjw8nmMT+D3yMU7jktL79vn78F/HDN39cTiDMflLhclri5JfQeoQclgDKrhSqTH6WwaJyUJbungw5ffzHE8FF6Icod+IJIqrjDdBCZYwEtrPPashc9MyweS1XlbZwHFVGdM9IZGaGhsi0KRcymXZTiOaSNsZYxHSmqmhwlqLHjfFsJW3Is9e1cGi6FDOvk7mdMBqwbI8i/4cD21sfSNhlziwdZ6gcLuEQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=+PLsFw/7l5x0qOJmT6k+YeArHfsQM+ThRqImmR/8wrU=; b=a2Pavy8U6K3E+fBhUx/Byo0MYaZKwsFeAQ0/pgSiAuTd3a83SyrckERiYE3MpVte1n8X1fU8JHooy+ct9v5kZZQyRRiGv4Y7nJ46HL2Ds8kQ3usSrbUZNOAY3NLp8sk8w4Fu55nWmpnEm8DZUzJr0Pi4H4viuZ2YiYt7vH8OMPLUVpbT+X6OZv76CbszuFV1Mm5zhm07GK3QdJPqAOWwMQX5d3HNc1qZ2sYh5TcLjkWVctz4UXHKcDhbA4uw7yJwOepO3wkZOkM1dhPQrQLhthg544i2GCZPObkEgZGIh9MxHe94x9RCWETP/gCbXw7Gn1/etob4wTBobjWhR7ww1w==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB3PR0202MB3452.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:5::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:15:02 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:15:02 +0000
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>   
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:15:00 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pf59893dZEMSlEkAoF7qvhvQtdd624Sji"
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM0PR01CA0081.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:208:10e::22) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by AM0PR01CA0081.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:208:10e::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.13 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:15:02 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9d0ff72f-1f7b-4cde-da8f-08d998ef95bf
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3PR0202MB3452:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:3513;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(33964004)(6916009)(6486002)(16576012)(38100700002)(31686004)(508600001)(235185007)(26005)(36756003)(21480400003)(53546011)(316002)(86362001)(786003)(54906003)(8936002)(2616005)(8676002)(31696002)(66556008)(66946007)(4326008)(66476007)(83380400001)(44832011)(956004)(186003)(5660300002)(66574015)(2906002)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?a2RQaUpWR1p3UGxVUEUvUTJYRTlEY0JRU2RFNHZsSXNBdVFQRHphRURYd2ZE?= =?utf-8?B?VlBjNkt1TktVR1hCWmpDUVFBd2ZBZnhoMVg4Um03bkIwaEI0S2NsNGkvSmh6?= =?utf-8?B?dUVNdzJ4cjZ0SDM1OUd0OVhQL044SElPL3lzSXdBM3dwTm9YcXdpbUpNM243?= =?utf-8?B?MEVqOXJaTVVUVnU4SkZ4VW1Va0I0Q2tUOThEazFZdG1WQThndWtCY1VldVgr?= =?utf-8?B?YTh1Zk9makhGRjdXU0hCbExsRjg4S1BCNURNWGJiQXMxSGlCeWNHWnZSMk9W?= =?utf-8?B?V0Y2VGNiYlBOZkUxNmFkYkVhOFlFZE1qRlVjc1FyUmRYUEZnWlZJcnlQeUhF?= =?utf-8?B?LzZIbVRjMWJLSHFXUlRIeGZjeDZMbVFuL1VlQUtkODdmRVY1bHBtYy9TcE1z?= =?utf-8?B?ZmpLeWtpSXRPcWdSc25HUTN3L3FNUTM1ZzBOYmllbU5Ga1lEbjVyRHVkU0V0?= =?utf-8?B?ZUFpYisyS29IbkFoRnVjbXM5eXRwT1dlTnFTQ0ZvZjQ4VXlDQ0Nic1dlakFl?= =?utf-8?B?WDZlTFRMdmdya3lpckIyd3o5Ly9pTnc1Z2R0Y1owakVTNnkybnZOaVhhdm1y?= =?utf-8?B?M2RYeFpDbFRDUjNDNXA3UHpkYzNUTVhuREphcDR1T1pNNmhXZXdQbGsyemh4?= =?utf-8?B?cmN2YllGUkxWemdkeXFMc2RjOUh1emJ0TERFd3hHQVZJSnpXTmhPVCs4R0Zx?= =?utf-8?B?MjZvQlFJdXlrS0NJVjRGeWhva3dzR1NDbTIyZGFJR2tDUkFzZEZwWHdvYzFv?= =?utf-8?B?bjZ4anE0TXJVRVcxTnZqWHpjTmNKM2dab1lmSzZvbU4wZEptTXF0TGlnaVpo?= =?utf-8?B?N2ZFeXFIOWhoSXkzYWpqV2E5S05xYTRRZjVDcUhTcXhBMU8zQllVUzNnK2RE?= =?utf-8?B?K0Q3NytjOFA1THdqYWtFTWtCSnRNMCtPRkdaYTlvL2NNQkVHdzM2ck1DVExB?= =?utf-8?B?aUZEbUtlNkF4ZDBPYTB2VDZVMkpPNnVXblFXK0IrWDJwa1RvQjZIV1IyWVdx?= =?utf-8?B?ZGFkT1kxaHJIWXFyeUd0M0c4ZFRjVVVybVhzYnR5ZW8zRHpnWWJaSzRpbzl5?= =?utf-8?B?T0FGbWdLendORkNMNWJDRTBjbS9SaUc5Tmc2SXdzSVBFS3dFSnRyTEJnSFFh?= =?utf-8?B?aUY3RnBNZGhxbkU3V1grVERVR3lRZVhvemFURzJhMElpM09NeDN5Nmt6bVkx?= =?utf-8?B?Z1pYSThlTHgyN3gzMXRhbmt2YzQ1cjFMY0VFdVFnNVlIbEljUTJuZUZDTWhj?= =?utf-8?B?NUhPNU9DZXdENjlTLzhCc1RxdHkvaGVZY3pzdmtiL3RvNXNzTUIwanRyaS9r?= =?utf-8?B?cUpZMzBvUkVIU2FiUFZBcmxjejVtWlJKOFB1NmpZVzg4U0hBU1Bub1RHTUll?= =?utf-8?B?OVBpTnFNNGgrZUNqMkdlVnVYdXlpZFZsWk90Z241NEVlWWJ4VDJFQjB2Q0px?= =?utf-8?B?TVpwaUZhZVMvSHlqQk9aOUFGMW5EUzM4c3J0aXk3d3lRZXJhL0g2T0xtL2FS?= =?utf-8?B?NFdidlYvdjhYcktySWJ5MEtRU0NwME1pSFZ4SXAxRDg5SXF2STlOdDVBcXNv?= =?utf-8?B?VVVHWTVialp1ZC9xMUVIL3dXeWJwazQwMGNzMWJORTgrRzMrelc2dWczK0Fs?= =?utf-8?B?NGhybnNuakNOZWN1d09uL2JLbzNsQnhpd05nL2JqREQ2bTNVQjlpRklkMkwz?= =?utf-8?B?dmdLOHcwLzJyWWlaKzV3dnNvOWpvTTZ3UWRTK3RqbXRwY1UzUFRVYzRNM3gx?= =?utf-8?B?bE9OUXNhVnI4Zjd2VVVqMG9TLzlkRlBzOWVPV1FkNnFNR2ZOeVFwUjdmY1RE?= =?utf-8?B?ZjQ2WHlMbnJyWSszN0MzbXlWSG1tdy9ZTm1HcklWOGRObHJvTTBobWYvWm9X?= =?utf-8?B?NXorZmwrbitlZlhHbGlEZS9ZT1llbDNITXZRUnByS21WTDJDelp0N3RtOEwr?= =?utf-8?B?QW1CcHcyVjVWZUROYkVtWFhoUW45NXpER1g2bmcrMFMzbzZKdWVWS3VLcEJ1?= =?utf-8?B?NjRveG1hK2VNY3Z5TWo4U3U2NmlSVjJjNFFVc2lKYlduUmxzRzBUR05ZQTBM?= =?utf-8?B?Mlk4dUNTMFpTRjlmaWl1SDdaazl5R0E5TitkMGlMVEROZndhc1NxQlZxVzZM?= =?utf-8?Q?++wE=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9d0ff72f-1f7b-4cde-da8f-08d998ef95bf
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 02:15:02.7989 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: weAsl1B/MeZAFv9bByf6o63a3V862NgJ4zM6+Y7nkfE8LMpgvpU9vhgDts8kfBI8
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3PR0202MB3452
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:15:29 -0000

--pf59893dZEMSlEkAoF7qvhvQtdd624Sji
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="uTRvJFkB4sfW3KnPvn5qIaDaNvUQpAdRS";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--uTRvJFkB4sfW3KnPvn5qIaDaNvUQpAdRS
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------D5ED966437C0A8ADF82549A7"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------D5ED966437C0A8ADF82549A7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

I'm sending too much mail on this so will take a break
now but just on this bit...

On 27/10/2021 03:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
> I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for tha=
t
> reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document

ISTM we have at least two sets of people in this respect.

One are those (incl. me ) who want to not disregard the
RFC series' heritage.

Another (also incl. me) who want to improve the current
production mechanisms and representation of IETF standards.

The nice thing about sets is that they don't have to be
disjoint. We can do both things, and (I think) we'd lose
if we only try for one of those.

The current draft IMO ignores the former aspect and ought
not.

Cheers,
S.

--------------D5ED966437C0A8ADF82549A7
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------D5ED966437C0A8ADF82549A7--

--uTRvJFkB4sfW3KnPvn5qIaDaNvUQpAdRS--

--pf59893dZEMSlEkAoF7qvhvQtdd624Sji
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=qqcG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--pf59893dZEMSlEkAoF7qvhvQtdd624Sji--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 19:21:27 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9233A05AA for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5-GhJ6Lfcxd for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ABE33A045B for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id q127so761506iod.12 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OZAp7pPWg8hicisd/WjK3UpgR/St3FFyYIHUlVZtQ9A=; b=sYTQDX3hBrxU1yIjSIAz8kl00MYP9DxN/K2Cjt9/eGLXBtcSp5W7zehyckkOxQRjj8 MNOHcJsv96YbB7gnfCaJhrnXGu8zvWbY+RUYYg2bcN+DdBCoHDq1r/fHeTmgUulQy63C 8MulAIRSA2oGJC+Jd5xsl1BlQtEOTjRkYXgLahKO/ElE1JWl+Fx4qtixY/nuSWQXtn5N 9iX6APsvu8G3tQwT1KfbsTBk1KiKij3dQrhB8SQiYI1TW9OQ+6bThFKnxMsYD3vvyaSh fJX6xAHAbchRRgMvUSuLASxfcmpmm+C37uFt1pF/bD0fDlfiwkAEy4TWwlGQlLAuJ5/4 Ke7A==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OZAp7pPWg8hicisd/WjK3UpgR/St3FFyYIHUlVZtQ9A=; b=JHxc/Ka43W235hDnwKShe306IS301TMOfr1yoKAq2IALRB8ULAxwt3x+HyirKC4RR5 rxu4ZzEKYZ+QLCt7KUKaSHcub30XM+qVxQoJn5fYLTMt3Aoc/R83X2Hw/3xmzDyhLWWY Pv8eMWpMzsSd8Fvr0vhIsWBP0LaOe+6W58BsRAKF4dcu38kh5WnYDQC+XazSNLJXsVxP J4WG8wQlnv6Lxyh1Lg/ffQbctXEd5XFp9OWO6hXYupbJeaYrvArbhwivsRbsEa1bdIDQ FcjU4L7rYot3IskaOicFGeGJGYBF2GBCKnUSlv35VutE0L+Fd2x6xkIu2TfHpaS+ZO89 ldEg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338v6Ow1r87BDCcm6H/ayKbfOBo2q9e5PDvWvp+lMwgm1Wwz+eN 6AiNaBI9qZs0RRnZWmH8Vj/qj8GzrtMCDb12qRiHWQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy1o3ghoiotsIluqYERLvB5q/ctIlwxp9vQYOaFU1Rs9XO4MPM8Lhikx9nrNffFtD4423wSgAbQnWORLwg1oZ4=
X-Received: by 2002:a02:c897:: with SMTP id m23mr2921164jao.82.1635301279020;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:21:19 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:20:43 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d66c8c05cf4c3f69"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 02:21:25 -0000

--000000000000d66c8c05cf4c3f69
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Just to avoid confusion, this does not change my mind, and I am not in
favor of changing the draft in this way.

-Ekr


On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:15 PM Stephen Farrell 
wrote:

>
> Hiya,
>
> I'm sending too much mail on this so will take a break
> now but just on this bit...
>
> On 27/10/2021 03:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
> > I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> > I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for that
> > reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document
>
> ISTM we have at least two sets of people in this respect.
>
> One are those (incl. me ) who want to not disregard the
> RFC series' heritage.
>
> Another (also incl. me) who want to improve the current
> production mechanisms and representation of IETF standards.
>
> The nice thing about sets is that they don't have to be
> disjoint. We can do both things, and (I think) we'd lose
> if we only try for one of those.
>
> The current draft IMO ignores the former aspect and ought
> not.
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>

--000000000000d66c8c05cf4c3f69
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just to avoid confusion, this does not change my mind=
, and I am not in favor of changing the draft in this way.
-Ekr


=

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:15 PM Steph=
en Farrell <stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,



I'm sending too much mail on this so will take a break

now but just on this bit...



On 27/10/2021 03:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,

> I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for th=
at

> reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document



ISTM we have at least two sets of people in this respect.



One are those (incl. me ) who want to not disregard the

RFC series' heritage.



Another (also incl. me) who want to improve the current

production mechanisms and representation of IETF standards.



The nice thing about sets is that they don't have to be

disjoint. We can do both things, and (I think) we'd lose

if we only try for one of those.



The current draft IMO ignores the former aspect and ought

not.



Cheers,

S.




--000000000000d66c8c05cf4c3f69--


From nobody Tue Oct 26 20:08:31 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDB13A0819 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BLUQkCdqSLWq for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com (mail-pf1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 431FE3A080B for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id t184so1428525pfd.0 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KXn2UZ9OMDndL9gR/AmnHQfIaXks4Ah77fNlb4d7guQ=; b=DdYAS03atFxt98MLmP/tXu+uyQW37ukf9h/yAVru2QwtvqKP0yTjJucx5r2jSz5qpc 7U/KmcJw51wzTU0q7nWk2VM4Hzrl0gRKyY6pc6zu5OfpiK0Zcefu0pf3dqXPYDrBNv5X gI88qg8jl2DBsa6fMzeD+5GazqxzL81MG3fw7xVur/bubEEFrBUUX9OtqlTmDubY2p3r /qXuWbZwCkt9Ili2YbL8tCwR0E0YOOIG5M0O2zOO6nwZdHwSfPHPPQhUaw/QetbxDeun kw+P/NQYt+vsT7oqV+FxntseaAkPZ593GYPly1pd/s9U99P15u9w86OCV2BcqJr9ozkE DcIg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KXn2UZ9OMDndL9gR/AmnHQfIaXks4Ah77fNlb4d7guQ=; b=JDdiJS15PpOXRZnPelLyEihS/tT2UMmbwmDjGhVc6Y0xZRanWjzG6V5ezRTdAq4HWU y4FHu1EgNHdCQiSZozBs4iach8X0jA11KoFJFAdIK3Tg4N6gH3Ivm3WNO47NFEs+HN56 g3xRhkZCNITgpODY0eyJpvBRY+VgNeMF5DoqXG0Qyuo9yFioeWXLfMxuOM9zChU9NGyA ok6wIDBRX+jbn3a54UuhvsnPwlXHguPZT9YLkUNdWhIaMLIhuLNSlIzTsjUP25d3eGbj jzmDGYrubDBov06TTzeXQwcVNJDmbJ9b1tNPl+tpOlZ/kkgIampu2Ke4NiHm7JhUBr08 3fFQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QT+2S8p5KBKAxTB2egUq3gEilRX6meo0Wukc7tzd1U5OiNRyz 2+Km52FMFQshj7bq6UEkmzcNgxe5gHQUXg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhyGGJ4CGkcKK85Q/rBPcNP95ebhvnU/HiWlukO/Rq4Dt+F646sHEbsV8Z/OdsBVLn6jN31Q==
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8209:0:b0:47b:df8c:7ec5 with SMTP id k9-20020aa78209000000b0047bdf8c7ec5mr24252298pfi.7.1635304102147;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h13sm4513626pfc.140.2021.10.26.20.08.19 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:08:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:08:16 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:08:29 -0000

We're engineers. We all know that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Stephen wants to codify that. I think that words like "legacy" and
"heritage" carry a bit of an emotional overtone. Is there a more
formal way of saying this without that emotional overtone?

Regards
    Brian

On 27-Oct-21 15:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Just to avoid confusion, this does not change my mind, and I am not in favor of changing the draft in this way.
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:15 PM Stephen Farrell > wrote:
> 
> 
>     Hiya,
> 
>     I'm sending too much mail on this so will take a break
>     now but just on this bit...
> 
>     On 27/10/2021 03:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>      > Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
>      > I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
>      > I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for that
>      > reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document
> 
>     ISTM we have at least two sets of people in this respect.
> 
>     One are those (incl. me ) who want to not disregard the
>     RFC series' heritage.
> 
>     Another (also incl. me) who want to improve the current
>     production mechanisms and representation of IETF standards.
> 
>     The nice thing about sets is that they don't have to be
>     disjoint. We can do both things, and (I think) we'd lose
>     if we only try for one of those.
> 
>     The current draft IMO ignores the former aspect and ought
>     not.
> 
>     Cheers,
>     S.
> 
> 


From nobody Tue Oct 26 20:11:06 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B533A084B for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qd7K6qNKuAJd for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33C5E3A0840 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id g184so1518797pgc.6 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xTJB8oOCEMs45hvHgWqZ7cR9btAMlQAwtoZFuQfYU0c=; b=RazTaf/SpM+l3l7ijTwaCooGZTwyRZXjYdi7SUnxUbDDJtVRQsgtFV7wm8/F7miMhR 8npP92CFwfycORYcmvLkx4ukT0hAnHwUQnAFExUBwEpj/sFbPx5U42XLN2Ycxm+ZUx6N 9i4x4isD4vXIl9WUbL+DeSFM2cQlrNlVEfygzwoeAcmGrJQ7sFhP/6X+sf4jMm9AeT3O C75Ia+yrjfLsoJ7vvibPyYDExN8aoqHt9BKEtfDKOx9L6KgH4hrG+pX7u7mxOjS4zPGf V26GmsotcnZ+tdCkmvoByTUTHATngAHYt4Tx+8Z9cai7FyW90kp3gRH5lv72DvbSTeh+ SQlQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xTJB8oOCEMs45hvHgWqZ7cR9btAMlQAwtoZFuQfYU0c=; b=MbqaCyR/yXsT+RZdnbfCC+aFAcchaQiHL6QfTzzJJ2YG4BA2+7H8jIinOk4xnXLxm1 NZqHvuV3ujX2CRXKgF+YO8BqkfsszLlP0GQKB3d1oR7HSXdRiILfLfoOVYZUfOBmOVoq hsAq4sSOUFIuKzW15d2sbegzzPXOkMbv4J4LaCYEDULEI7dKD4cBNXCeb+d5VvGCvACq eguvUQp0NqaBT1uGYe0mHDGYWJBHE9zdtm1Jlqu02fZwvjtd6GFqNDayZ5sMb3TcChWi vLXyZm8vhHBRUPpomeHAIzum2rCP6A1j8XqTxStmPf6KaylU9RJIOSigKPmkXUw889Cx 3bHA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322Wl+gjXRCT0/LXS/ahy0+grhpleptZobFh7GzxH/S4hPyw4KH 3pCNDyfokBWQRij4izSNPR479hyUjenMSw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMWveNZAWe2d02KKWELuNtqpWOdyHfM5oXEmIZgoEi+YoWt/Un8EPV0AyYloP2X3Kgwi3ebQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:3608:: with SMTP id d8mr19033561pga.285.1635304258712;  Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:10:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g25sm7773912pfh.216.2021.10.26.20.10.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:10:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mark Nottingham , Stephen Farrell 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson , Eliot Lear 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>  <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>  <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:10:52 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:11:05 -0000

On 27-Oct-21 12:30, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> FWIW I think the current text encourages such things even more strongly.
> 
> I agree that the RPC setting policies willy-nilly is concerning, but I also acknowledge that the reality is that they'll need to in some circumstances, else many RFCs will be delayed indefinitely while the RSWG and RSAB chew on an ever-increasing pile of problems.
> 
> A few things we can do to ameliorate that:
> 
> - Make it clear that RPC policies are temporary and subject to review by the RSWG
> - Make it clear that RPC polices are not pre-emptive; although persuasive, they can be overridden by the RSWG
> - Limit the scope of RPC policies
> 
> I think all three are implied by the current text and the proposal, but could be clarified.

If you s/working policies/working practices/ I think it will make the intent clear
without undercutting the RSWG/RSAB policy role.

    Brian

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 10:22 am, Stephen Farrell  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> On 27/10/2021 00:12, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> How about: https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101
>>
>> Apologies if I'm getting the githubbery differy wrong but
>> your suggestion seems to add:
>>
>> "In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC,
>> or to specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can
>> define working policies regarding the editorial preparation
>> and final publication and dissemination of RFCs."
>>
>> My starting point is to be strongly opposed to that as it
>> puts the RPC in the position of initiating, and being the
>> proponent for, policy changes. That seems to me to be the
>> opposite of where we want to be, despite the inefficiency
>> of where we are:-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>> On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive
>>>>>> control of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the
>>>>>> 'readability and presentation of RFCs'.
>>>>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it
>>>>> could be clearer.
>>>> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction?
>>>> Eliot
>>>> 
>>> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>> 
> 
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
> 


From nobody Tue Oct 26 20:12:50 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974853A0856 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.12
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=WMwoJyZ1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ajEDGvU2
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmC0hg32_-iE for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 933C53A084F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBBE5C00A8; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:12:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:12:41 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=/ QvWP8J+K9EZEa6R52fHcwzZv5ljRGw14KvUmVaSSPM=; b=WMwoJyZ1sPDI9bbwm 3V30VtpoXdubP2+HUNSw08diiYLL77ATzfwLSr2ZmzxulCSKHuFiGvJz6X6cLP8n esNrXy6Dlsy2smr+kulBquXOb8DkfOIlSk0IOqP2UZQdkLz9SJyaIGjHONUdHpUT 26VuvpYdnlaLLYqcyBmdhSawFl36MkRYvQVp1mxd8gpYCjnBSmJjp9i4QiLxvByF MtLDtHIGHQi/M9eq9ek9Joj0OCRs9OGZksQUbBtJZkmLTkDSO4xjiTiCjpCRzlpn afGdm52TXzLHEM4KGToHtpfTYeyoSJIlkulpN1f2pzbcbwH2oO6meo452xcWaqGf ohIQg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=/QvWP8J+K9EZEa6R52fHcwzZv5ljRGw14KvUmVaSS PM=; b=ajEDGvU28TrAnAfrHyhWo6BYY32qFB9Cl4lvoOI4eL6un4cgxJjnMj7d8 fZKEBYhHxgGcPrKnA9jfz+znZyw758TLJo9Jwd2e+CoxCG0XC7B3XguflMfO1roi eAugasK9JNLi40ABf4ireO0wVON9s9ZokqZchIapQgKo2I/yOrbz0mNk0/VeCNgW WP2LaH9rVKRvGPNyB4ZGy+FhuDICli8DRyn1GCxDDEChSlRzoyX2vjkqOQs2jQiL HdEY/zXYbecBGFnoBiCN3foXbJ4a97//mJQnvO0QezJSgw5GulpQYxKfp7w+tQTe Fio+/3PzwXhZL91pVsmGJR2V6SNeg==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefledgiedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelffdvueevffffkeeggfffueegheelkeekteejlefhleekveekudeiieevvdet gfenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohht rdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 14:12:36 +1100
Cc: Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson , Eliot Lear 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>  <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>  <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net> 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:12:49 -0000

I like it; done.


> On 27 Oct 2021, at 2:10 pm, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> On 27-Oct-21 12:30, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> Hi Stephen,
>> FWIW I think the current text encourages such things even more =
strongly.
>> I agree that the RPC setting policies willy-nilly is concerning, but =
I also acknowledge that the reality is that they'll need to in some =
circumstances, else many RFCs will be delayed indefinitely while the =
RSWG and RSAB chew on an ever-increasing pile of problems.
>> A few things we can do to ameliorate that:
>> - Make it clear that RPC policies are temporary and subject to review =
by the RSWG
>> - Make it clear that RPC polices are not pre-emptive; although =
persuasive, they can be overridden by the RSWG
>> - Limit the scope of RPC policies
>> I think all three are implied by the current text and the proposal, =
but could be clarified.
>=20
> If you s/working policies/working practices/ I think it will make the =
intent clear
> without undercutting the RSWG/RSAB policy role.
>=20
>   Brian
>=20
>> Cheers,
>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 10:22 am, Stephen Farrell =
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>=20
>>> On 27/10/2021 00:12, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>> How about: =
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101
>>>=20
>>> Apologies if I'm getting the githubbery differy wrong but
>>> your suggestion seems to add:
>>>=20
>>> "In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC,
>>> or to specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can
>>> define working policies regarding the editorial preparation
>>> and final publication and dissemination of RFCs."
>>>=20
>>> My starting point is to be strongly opposed to that as it
>>> puts the RPC in the position of initiating, and being the
>>> proponent for, policy changes. That seems to me to be the
>>> opposite of where we want to be, despite the inefficiency
>>> of where we are:-)
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>> On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>>>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive
>>>>>>> control of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the
>>>>>>> 'readability and presentation of RFCs'.
>>>>>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it
>>>>>> could be clearer.
>>>>> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction?
>>>>> Eliot
>>>>> 
>>>> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>>> 
>> --
>> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Tue Oct 26 22:45:27 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825EC3A0A66; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:45:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LI_TBwMztN0H; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:45:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0321E3A0A63; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19R5j60I997014 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 07:45:07 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635313508; bh=T1RX/iVdrFjfXnh7dPLyPajz6jUCoidMrdNVkT81lXo=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=HSRJfmJ/4nPzG6k9AYTKhsygn0KRe5mzR7bDQi/QnQCkA26qfHgWCy2xRcJzv2ci9 1u7K5nLNG0vheWAQuOKuZ9AQQ5oq6Rkws0ZFmvTvDHkaEni52UeHoBWjo+6OHfx7oL Jn9WnoVFFsCLGVoCPLJH3ECM3GIe6EuKieVEilNw=
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 07:45:02 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla , Stephen Farrell 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>   
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------o8W8vzbJ0M3GzkTonWTQWkq3"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 05:45:25 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------o8W8vzbJ0M3GzkTonWTQWkq3
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Wx50rWHJskkkvINFXgaPytKo";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Eric Rescorla , Stephen Farrell 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------Wx50rWHJskkkvINFXgaPytKo
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9VRKT3m9eQHvVwZg591lxQ0q"

--------------9VRKT3m9eQHvVwZg591lxQ0q
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------9VRKT3m9eQHvVwZg591lxQ0q
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------9VRKT3m9eQHvVwZg591lxQ0q--


--------------Wx50rWHJskkkvINFXgaPytKo--

--------------o8W8vzbJ0M3GzkTonWTQWkq3
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF4514FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPR
YQf/bhMhgpZxDsarAC4l6LaoG6vAjbcRIkzK86OOh0spSl8bLjUyPEWTDrZUjdMUxh4+6jCKWj87
X3hGUh5rui56O6dZm/Y3+Ed87mOGKuAz/1PPKiiuLUOSU1kwqp3Iy1a34+umCNHn0lZpkQlIBomt
F7E2lo92IwqsnEihouqwXe0I/9Q5xOzcfldSO32cEzusXGM1+wMTObMt4uH6air+msWT6cLB/GLg
nvCKK0QYauZPoAvGgMWIkkuYjLfIcrtdxKtHjhjVraGZifACu1vNjCONWMsSCHOy6dC6Yv0/1yU6
YwA99S5frFyOa+xiOTFQyU3UESM5gu4Xqfz0MY3eKA==
=aeaj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------o8W8vzbJ0M3GzkTonWTQWkq3--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 03:00:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B80F3A0646 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8fiRa4OhnMS for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:00:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BB7A3A05D0 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 03:00:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::8] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:8]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19RA0aDf1120481 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 12:00:36 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635328838; bh=tiOyAOtj3I+EidV3+5CtwHkE0naBL1Thijl7WvoE7f0=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=EkkgNSWpOmf0bmRwHIM279ItaFFWp7xaMOBtl7PRPdFLR+8sOlvK0v/HFYkKrykk4 Y2t7LP6fcF9IrZ1RwiZTLBXFu6QaT2IcPYYPYC7AeLxobr7Sob4558Rv1ujcSyOf0Q O/mPwzoe8ZfikZArLV/U+uF1akyvzbQtOL3/2ojI=
Message-ID: <1b7c4b75-e533-c4f2-37ee-4db8252aafa5@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 12:00:33 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>  <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>  <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>  <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>  
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------HxqS2JYsF6BcezAZcjgK53cT"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:00:51 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------HxqS2JYsF6BcezAZcjgK53cT
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------GC0pHItpmY1oA6XJrKRRliuA";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mark Nottingham ,
 Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org,
 Martin Thomson 
Message-ID: <1b7c4b75-e533-c4f2-37ee-4db8252aafa5@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com>
 
 <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net>
 
 <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------GC0pHItpmY1oA6XJrKRRliuA
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9AguVE01itrDq2TNs7ikQ9qE"

--------------9AguVE01itrDq2TNs7ikQ9qE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------9AguVE01itrDq2TNs7ikQ9qE
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------9AguVE01itrDq2TNs7ikQ9qE--


--------------GC0pHItpmY1oA6XJrKRRliuA--

--------------HxqS2JYsF6BcezAZcjgK53cT
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF5I0EFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejP4
iAgAkQcL4781Y/8I78rE6Tkt1R6NO49AHM8xBRfSwAjB9MAMJoMH0iiw0z6RrNHjwt6uc+YVXjfZ
KSbF1fDF6pD7ZVTy3udBrnkHYA+PM2kUe+A8wGxmTyzBIkBPp106rl/YsIPU9scXCyCyONk8DNtG
0AIK8qbCmPZmHqBcz+JBOgCC6e6pCTCJ6E4gJ+cDIqvJDBlUfxsbJvxyFeAVOJtRgJgFMJqgq1BW
eAbd6wDS90UVnhGJ7uq1++9mWDtBUBKRStGzbolga5Y78tY38V3zVs48DRoTsvznVSfnbnuxd/HB
quRcX5e8yidinOmuWL2/oM9FfFOmk+/FhucgHWWRpw==
=UzVs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------HxqS2JYsF6BcezAZcjgK53cT--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 05:13:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4602A3A110F; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 05:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.889
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7KWMANoPQwXc; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 05:12:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE0833A110A; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9916:9b8c:d136:30ae] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9916:9b8c:d136:30ae]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19RCCmDN1187221 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 14:12:48 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635336769; bh=KrQkn2JLd+HtJY/NWV7OEE4Wd9Wm2XCAiyYldowfatU=; h=Date:To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:From; b=B/og3ZYCky2WK0rZ/6gfd1ckFqbeGG/2CLgA8+wxMCNPgv7cReEsBAn98AC2/al6z 6bxaOQMjrhXA2CzvI461xXw0a1vrDURlRtg5BwenocBKmpCwXhqSqSN2KL0ZKK3wI6 PPFlrDKb5gU5lHqGFDbn3PLeh/g+MZMBP/J4+EVI=
Message-ID: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 14:12:47 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: "irtf-discuss@irtf.org" , gendispatch@ietf.org, The IETF List , rfc-interest@ietf.org
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen 
Reply-To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------jlh709raj4unRJuVAzy9bNuY"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Upcoming Community Consultations on Next Generation RFC Model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 12:13:02 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------jlh709raj4unRJuVAzy9bNuY
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9SwCufWD1UboIrBgi0JZZ6VC";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
Reply-To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
To: "irtf-discuss@irtf.org" , gendispatch@ietf.org,
 The IETF List , rfc-interest@ietf.org
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
Subject: Upcoming Community Consultations on Next Generation RFC Model

--------------9SwCufWD1UboIrBgi0JZZ6VC
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------VbAGZ5nczXPcH5GlkSjHrRi1"

--------------VbAGZ5nczXPcH5GlkSjHrRi1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

RGVhciBjb2xsZWFndWVzLA0KDQpJbiBNYXJjaCBvZiAyMDIwIHRoZSBJQUIga2lja2VkIG9m
ZiB0aGUgUkZDIFNlcmllcyBFZGl0b3JpYWwgRnV0dXJlIA0KRGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgUHJvZ3Jh
bSwgYSBwcm9ncmFtIG9wZW5lZCB0byB0aGUgZW50aXJlIGNvbW11bml0eSwgd2l0aCBhbiAN
CmV5ZSB0b3dhcmQgcmV2aWV3aW5nIHRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yIG1vZGVsIGZvdW5kIGluIA0K
ZHJhZnQtaWFiLXJmY2VmZHAtcmZjZWQtbW9kZWwtMDVbMV0uIFdlIGFyZSBub3cgY29taW5n
IHRvIHRoZSBjb25jbHVzaW9uIA0Kb2Ygb3VyIHdvcmssIGFuZCB0aGUgSUFCIHdpbGwgc29v
biBiZWdpbiBpdHMgZm9ybWFsIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb24sIHdoaWNoIA0KaXMgZ292ZXJuZWQg
YnkgUkZDIDQ4NDVbMl0uIFBhcnQgb2YgdGhhdCBwcm9jZXNzIGluY2x1ZGVzIHNvbGljaXRh
dGlvbiANCm9mIGNvbW11bml0eSBpbnB1dC4NCg0KVGhlIHByb2dyYW0gaGFzIGRldmVsb3Bl
ZCBhbiBldm9sdXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIFJGQyBFZGl0b3IgTW9kZWwgYW5kIGEgDQpzbWFsbCBj
aGFuZ2UgdG8gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgb2YgdGhlIElBQi4gWW91IGNhbiBmaW5kIHRoaXMgZXZv
bHV0aW9uIGluIA0KZHJhZnQtaWFiLXJmY2VmZHAtcmZjZWQtbW9kZWwtMDUgYXMgd2VsbCBh
cyB0d28gY29tcGFuaW9uIGRyYWZ0c1szLDQsNV0uIA0KVGhpcyBkcmFmdCBicmluZ3MgdG9n
ZXRoZXIgbWFueSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcG9pbnRzIG9mIHZpZXcsIGFzIHlvdSBjYW4gc2VlIA0K
ZnJvbSB0aGUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IGFyY2hpdmVbNl0uDQoNCkhlcmUgYXJlIHNvbWUgb2Yg
dGhlIHByb3Bvc2VkIGNoYW5nZXMgdGhhdCB5b3UgbWF5IHdpc2ggdG8ga25vdzoNCg0KIDEu
DQoNCiAgICBUaGUgY29tbXVuaXR5IG92ZXJzZWVzIHRoZSBldm9sdXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHNl
cmllcyBieSBtZWFucyBvZiBhbg0KICAgIG9wZW4gd29ya2luZyBncm91cC4gUHJvcG9zZWQg
Y2hhbmdlcyB0aGF0IHJlYWNoIHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB3aWxsDQogICAgYmUgcmV2aWV3
ZWQgYnkgYW4gUkZDIFNlcmllcyBBcHByb3ZhbCBCb2FyZCAoUlNBQikgdGhhdCBjb25zaXN0
cyBvZg0KICAgIHRoZSBSU0NFIGFuZCBwZW9wbGUgcmVwcmVzZW50aW5nIHRoZSB2YXJpb3Vz
IHN0cmVhbXMuDQoNCiAyLg0KDQogICAgVGhlIFJGQyBFZGl0b3Igcm9sZSBpcyBjaGFuZ2lu
ZyB0byB0aGF0IG9mIGEgY29uc3VsdGluZyBlZGl0b3IgKFJGQw0KICAgIFNlcmllcyBDb25z
dWx0aW5nIEVkaXRvciBvciBSU0NFKS4gSW4gdGhpcyBtb2RlbCwgYW4gZXhwZXJ0IHdpbGwN
CiAgICBwcm92aWRlIGd1aWRhbmNlIHRvIHRoZSBjb21tdW5pdHksIHRoZSBzdHJlYW1zLCBh
bmQgdG8gdGhlIFJQQyB0bw0KICAgIGV2b2x2ZSB0aGUgc2VyaWVzLg0KDQogMy4NCg0KICAg
IFRoZSBJQUIgd2lsbCBubyBsb25nZXIgbWFuYWdlIG9yIG92ZXJzZWUgdGhlIFJGQyBzZXJp
ZXMuIFRoZQ0KICAgIGNvbW11bml0eSBhbmQgdGhlIHN0cmVhbXMgd2lsbCBkbyB0aGF0LiBU
aGUgSUFCIHdpbGwgY29udGludWUgdG8gYmUNCiAgICBpbiB0aGUgYXBwZWFsIHBhdGggaWYg
dGhlcmUgYXJlIGRpc3B1dGVzLg0KDQpUaGVyZSBhcmUgYSBsb3Qgb2YgdGhpbmdzIHRoYXQg
d29uJ3QgY2hhbmdlLiBUaGUgUlBDIHdvdWxkIGNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIA0KaGFuZGxlIGRheS10
by1kYXkgZnVuY3Rpb25zIG9mIHRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yIGZ1bmN0aW9uLCBhbmQgYXV0aG9y
cyANCnNob3VsZCBub3Qgc2VlIGFueSBpbW1lZGlhdGUgY2hhbmdlIGluIHRlcm1zIG9mIGhv
dyBSRkNzIGFyZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQuIA0KVGhleSBjb250aW51ZSB0byBiZSBtYW5hZ2VkIHRo
cm91Z2ggdGhlIExMQy4gV2Ugd2lsbCBjb250aW51ZSB0byBiZW5lZml0IA0KZnJvbSB0aGUg
ZXhwZXJ0aXNlIG9mIGEgcHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsIGV4cGVydCwgbm93IHRoZSBSU0NFLg0KDQpP
ZiBjb3Vyc2UsIHRoZXJlJ3MgYSBsb3QgbW9yZSBkZXRhaWwgdGhhdCBpcyBzcGVjaWZpZWQg
aW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0cy4NCg0KVGhpcyBpcyB3aGF0IHdpbGwgc29vbiBiZSBwdXQgZm9ydGgg
Zm9yIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudHMuIEluIHRoZSBtZWFudGltZSwgDQpldmVuIHRob3VnaCB0aGUg
Zm9ybWFsIGNvbW1lbnQgcGVyaW9kIGlzIG5vdCB5ZXQgb3Blbiwgd2UgaW52aXRlIHlvdSB0
byANCnJldmlldyB0aGUgbW9kZWwgbm93IGFuZCBicmluZyB3aGF0ZXZlciBxdWVzdGlvbnMg
eW91IG1pZ2h0IGhhdmUgdG8gdGhlIA0KcHJvZ3JhbSB3aGVuIHdlIG1lZXQgb24gV2VkbmVz
ZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxMHRoLCBhdCAxNC4zMCBHTVQgYXQgdGhlIA0KSUVURiBtZWV0aW5n
LiBPZiBjb3Vyc2UgeW91IGNhbiBhbHNvIGpvaW4gdGhlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdFs3XSBhbmQg
DQpjb250cmlidXRlIHlvdXIgcXVlc3Rpb25zIGFuZCBjb21tZW50cyB0aGVyZS4NCg0KT24g
YmVoYWxmIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9ncmFtLA0KDQpCcmlhbiBhbmQgRWxpb3QNCg0KWzFdIA0KaHR0
cHM6Ly93d3cuaWFiLm9yZy9hY3Rpdml0aWVzL3Byb2dyYW1zL3JmYy1lZGl0b3ItZnV0dXJl
LWRldmVsb3BtZW50LXByb2dyYW0vDQpbMl0gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcv
cmZjL3JmYzQ4NDUuaHRtbA0KWzNdIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9j
L2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWFiLXJmY2VmZHAtcmZjZWQtbW9kZWwtMDUNCls0XSANCmh0dHBzOi8v
ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtY2FycGVudGVyLXJmY2VkLWlh
Yi1jaGFydGVyLTAzDQpbNV0gaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvaHRt
bC9kcmFmdC1yb3Nlbi1yZmNlZmRwLXVwZGF0ZS0yMDI2LTAxDQpbNl0gaHR0cHM6Ly9tYWls
YXJjaGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoL2Jyb3dzZS9yZmNlZC1mdXR1cmUvDQpbN10gaHR0cHM6
Ly93d3cuaWFiLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3JmY2VkLWZ1dHVyZQ0KDQo=
--------------VbAGZ5nczXPcH5GlkSjHrRi1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  

    
  
  
    
Dear colleagues,

    
In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial
      Future Development Program, a program opened
      to the entire community, with an eye toward reviewing the RFC
      Editor model found in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05[1]. We are
      now coming to the
      conclusion of our work, and the IAB will soon begin its formal
      consideration, which is governed by
      RFC 4845[2]. Part of that process includes solicitation of
      community input.

    
The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model
      and a small change to the charter of the IAB.
      You can find this evolution in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05 as
      well as two companion drafts[3,4,5].
      This draft brings together many different points of view, as you
      can see from the mailing list archive[6].

    
Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to know:
    
    
      
  1. 
        
    The community oversees the evolution of the series by means
          of an open working group.
          Proposed changes that reach rough consensus will be reviewed
          by an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) that
          consists of the RSCE and people representing the various
          streams.
    
      
    2. 
      
  2. 
        
    The RFC Editor role is changing to that of a consulting
          editor (RFC Series Consulting Editor or RSCE). In
          this model, an expert will provide guidance to the community,
          the streams, and to the RPC to evolve the series.
    
      
    3. 
      
  3. 
        
    The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC series. The
          community and the streams will do that. The IAB
          will continue to be in the appeal path if there are disputes.
      
    4. 
    

    
There are a lot of things that won't change. The RPC would
      continue to handle day-to-day functions of the RFC
      Editor function, and authors should not see any immediate change
      in terms of how RFCs are published. They continue to be
      managed through the LLC. We will continue to benefit from the
      expertise of a professional expert, now the RSCE.

    
Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the
      drafts.

    
This is what will soon be put forth for your comments. In the
      meantime, even though the formal comment period is not
      yet open, we invite you to review the model now and bring whatever
      questions you might have to the program when we meet
      on Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the IETF meeting. Of
      course you can also join the mailing list[7] and
      contribute your questions and comments there.

    
On behalf of the program,

    
Brian and Eliot

    
[1] https://www.iab.=
org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-program/

      [2] https://www.rfc-=
editor.org/rfc/rfc4845.html

      [3] https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05

      [4] https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03

      [5] https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01

      [6] https://mailarch=
ive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfced-future/

      [7] https://www.iab.=
org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

  

--------------VbAGZ5nczXPcH5GlkSjHrRi1--


--------------9SwCufWD1UboIrBgi0JZZ6VC--

--------------jlh709raj4unRJuVAzy9bNuY
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF5Qj8FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejM2
iwgAi6HcFxgP7A5VN4w7DsVmkSL9aiu7ZTARsLSaLnJWwiDhdlrbe6dBX3iRj3ci4yCTJPG5LjtL
GFHg/DvrQLkoTakLQJiJNkwLHzMRqEkqIBReCokhp22jGiESEkfqZb5M/UgsyqR/mjf5YZcEDcpG
eOi7P78Ldy4EWvaV0YgspfIxWVuS1kSK2BmYbN2A+5ZstVgYPkzJtlkNEQf/HJiKE7xzAN/BIAr2
LnwkJFrF5KTspUiJo9vTk/fZTtzxrWAALZmNGGXa49vrQYCvw2A/UP5suzd4Yy8ekoLQboIb4qx7
gibTuU0Vq0rpGqSvuGfs9mIDNdWE0XtIFpbGecHt7A==
=ID7W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------jlh709raj4unRJuVAzy9bNuY--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 06:12:49 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574463A0B38 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 06:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.419
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOoAfS3PDLDd for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86CE53A0B30 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19RDBv1f1215606 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:12:36 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635340356; bh=Q6FPU28BccF0/UEH94t0YmJXcxi+AMA4Clu4KHvYTm0=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=lUgEBm3oY6TREWQu9X/BPn7cq2eErbD/sfASOi62IX2zCjhpIhGEMgb+kMFo1wg34 V1fbqGMS2GQMPTFoZ1zjHfsijJSqWCpQfpbchrQO0TgpMxzWgWNLRRAR9mEAu43JAn zPkFPqX8k+Bt7D07jGGq+UVK0tiefowjFN5YhlM8=
Message-ID: <63f94ba3-04a1-f4ef-08e3-8faf20449055@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:11:29 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------rHacZIvmQ7VTTL9HTXSH4E1p"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Upcoming Community Consultations on Next Generation RFC Model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:12:49 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------rHacZIvmQ7VTTL9HTXSH4E1p
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------q2hzMoL031LJL770ALADCGI3";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <63f94ba3-04a1-f4ef-08e3-8faf20449055@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: Upcoming Community Consultations on Next Generation RFC Model
References: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>

--------------q2hzMoL031LJL770ALADCGI3
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FY5rG45NXNHzElsbmuqWSWR9"

--------------FY5rG45NXNHzElsbmuqWSWR9
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------8AhHS4LexMaKqgTv5vD8dCo3"

--------------8AhHS4LexMaKqgTv5vD8dCo3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------8AhHS4LexMaKqgTv5vD8dCo3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
Just a note to the program.=C2=A0 We didn't say this, but obviousl=
y
      feel free to forward this message to whoever you want.

    

    
On 27.10.21 14:12, Eliot Lear wrote:
    

    

      
      
Dear colleagues,

      
In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial
        Future Development Program, a program opened to the entire
        community, with an eye toward reviewing the RFC Editor model
        found in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05[1]. We are now coming
        to the conclusion of our work, and the IAB will soon begin its
        formal consideration, which is governed by RFC 4845[2]. Part of
        that process includes solicitation of community input.

      
The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model
        and a small change to the charter of the IAB. You can find this
        evolution in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05 as well as two
        companion drafts[3,4,5]. This draft brings together many
        different points of view, as you can see from the mailing list
        archive[6].

      
Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to
        know:

      
    
        
  1. 
          
    The community oversees the evolution of the series by means
            of an open working group. Proposed changes that reach rough
            consensus will be reviewed by an RFC Series Approval Board
            (RSAB) that consists of the RSCE and people representing the
            various streams.
    
        
    2. 
        
  2. 
          
    The RFC Editor role is changing to that of a consulting
            editor (RFC Series Consulting Editor or RSCE). In this
            model, an expert will provide guidance to the community, the
            streams, and to the RPC to evolve the series.
    
        
    3. 
        
  3. 
          
    The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC series.
            The community and the streams will do that. The IAB will
            continue to be in the appeal path if there are disputes.
    
        
    4. 
      

      
There are a lot of things that won't change. The RPC would
        continue to handle day-to-day functions of the RFC Editor
        function, and authors should not see any immediate change in
        terms of how RFCs are published. They continue to be managed
        through the LLC. We will continue to benefit from the expertise
        of a professional expert, now the RSCE.

      
Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the
        drafts.

      
This is what will soon be put forth for your comments. In the
        meantime, even though the formal comment period is not yet open,
        we invite you to review the model now and bring whatever
        questions you might have to the program when we meet on
        Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the IETF meeting. Of
        course you can also join the mailing list[7] and contribute your
        questions and comments there.

      
On behalf of the program,

      
Brian and Eliot

      
[1] https://www.iab.org/activities/program=
s/rfc-editor-future-development-program/

        [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4845=
=2Ehtml

        [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05

        [4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03

        [5] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01

        [6] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/brow=
se/rfced-future/

        [7] https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/r=
fced-future

    

  

--------------8AhHS4LexMaKqgTv5vD8dCo3--

--------------FY5rG45NXNHzElsbmuqWSWR9
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------FY5rG45NXNHzElsbmuqWSWR9--


--------------q2hzMoL031LJL770ALADCGI3--

--------------rHacZIvmQ7VTTL9HTXSH4E1p
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF5UAEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOd
eggApAZPMOz35D1kf1VmcpzaJ0DQdprNo76YvjHpew067KJcYDfeV4w76Sknln6v32GcDdIs8HET
Gs0x/h9pK7E1L4bjBLm3rlu9MxDZkheX5smpCj3CoYOpHWgbkoImQK28wq+vm7L2MNvXTxwlOkbM
y2xJYgZsbIJ64V2Nj1xSucmqN2JBmEH8FrPJDv8kfmNgYnyfnRgYudBdiMWg2uM1tQbf4J+RJdCW
iCbYm+qkrjKKL77CPfMZxqBm58H8ZG9kdLEELzJLaa2m60Ej9cbP/PrAwUgCNigv3kBT9OND7hfB
mszp44Uko0UqcHkt1XC9KvZ/SwmvvLMo4fjYaKWv6g==
=CAiN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------rHacZIvmQ7VTTL9HTXSH4E1p--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 10:14:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA3B3A0DF8 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xD4kW5EPlgbN for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:14:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA34E3A0DF3 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 3so3725690ilq.7 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZLJqi4HDI2Bfb1Ckuta9JgsOCFrHEO83F/oyNMMmgS0=; b=E0rVIbbKxZTH48qTT9UFC2YXwS7EAmzWcjg6U1nuCYO1F52Ur45HoIuPIvYXXpjkYE Oca9nKS13VS2fhBlI9321wTWciKkTIY4/+IZeH5ZPQoFpc6bYmK0nwcgRqHlgtbIfLXF hXp9z+9PzAM+oHuMhGpXqaQEURBO5eZ7gbUvkWbd4E6rG1IfrghrMWVodS3BuWitF9+T +H1HxFFkCK2xq2x7sqbtgzeDhcmNpvZBiEoouIzVxQLnAvZvqe/6ufKHDDvfQM4nTBLW vZjRNbq2YsfQtKYtIvHyr7Ei4P3Sup/+pHXuvlXCVH3SxryMWpKrebCQplXpdWgENIOc gX+w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZLJqi4HDI2Bfb1Ckuta9JgsOCFrHEO83F/oyNMMmgS0=; b=XZhEWwm7ba+QPGIyh7ZAj93iy82Efp3acWa9pXuCFAFkp+mwmXRBR5/6DkqX37PZ9w K9m1ogeBo2RnH5RiM7usK0EJ3nmpkMGHeZfZggADtJqPKTbM/4Xug75bNn4l3rG2vxcY VLt2VSxDdw0dUB4HK3rnhIyxJhIxUBeIGnAZL9nDH39C2M0Y2LN0HIOMqoOT7XBhZWig sHF7DNv1rrccYEeW9G/IK3P4A84Nfo2Y5YZnRYeMa/JQgxAuHYs+11I/ztirHUd1NI/Z ViBgrKjJasW3jvKsj30blAvkfbaDy4pgVv+LGjLYvqtHEXKMPebp6BhyjrpPOuQbbgYq A7bA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312puqPRK66P7E9KsPSxBi2VSgnQM97JZrTmErrH0DdVQs0djN0 Hr6BcJTLOhRcJA5FGPzf3uc+82727r0tukzpForub4eqpdM=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/1iATt2gkpccOV4EVScwUwxrhHjTr0Gqz/DgeWFXPhae9qp1oa44KhWKfZeKpSZBprpbgOwbC71F/TSieFKs=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:164d:: with SMTP id v13mr18762557ilu.10.1635354848128;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:13:31 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Stephen Farrell ,  "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce06cb05cf58b868"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:14:15 -0000

--000000000000ce06cb05cf58b868
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45 PM Eliot Lear  wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> On 27.10.21 04:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
> > I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> > I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for that
> > reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document
>
> Perhaps there is a way to state the perceived tension, in which we talk
> about the need to consider the heritage of the series while at the same
> time taking steps to maintain the accessibility/health/??? of future
> contributions.
>

This doesn't work for me.

I think we ought to largely disregard the heritage of the series.

-Ekr

--000000000000ce06cb05cf58b868
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45 PM Elio=
t Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
<=
/div>
Hi Eric,



On 27.10.21 04:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,

> I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for th=
at

> reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document



Perhaps there is a way to state the perceived tension, in which we talk 
about the need to consider the heritage of the series while at the same 
time taking steps to maintain the accessibility/health/??? of future 

contributions.

This doesn't work fo=
r me.

I think we ought to largely disregard the he=
ritage of the series.

-Ekr



--000000000000ce06cb05cf58b868--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 10:18:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01A43A0E02 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=me.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uemk1tFUXf77 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mr85p00im-hyfv06021301.me.com (mr85p00im-hyfv06021301.me.com [17.58.23.188]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9E053A0E03 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=1a1hai; t=1635355119; bh=IHM60mBzQWk8HMALZyO1WgYsOjPn2EWCgi8nOBwQyYE=; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To; b=fFFp7v0jJSNXfuG6BJD04eK5ufQMRzraMmOj8jf5jLTAlyq1QyyZgCec5Bh+eoagV jWeFrKW83A7lLtn6ZrsUBH3wCX2LoEZFXFiXsCwJKWfbR/EscYiKz8wXHso+G92jGp H4PHYAVe5vWmOl3xEZ3hruNldxanfjcxUnuSn29f1srmlJ0oTxKCnUKMMSuap9Ag83 rlvaU5ZMai9HaRhDQ9A966jAQ05orNihpHkEXYRtOEX3j7+JuSrlw/NKrHdZNNQ/vf weJ177fNXlOmxsn3ziCKbqdcz7cZe+DmhqsgFpp1orWTuVq+yoJ+qEv0hiBDrCinVx cL4Pv4R6RCaTQ==
Received: from smtpclient.apple (157-131-155-250.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net [157.131.155.250]) by mr85p00im-hyfv06021301.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01573406A8; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:18:38 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ole Jacobsen 
Message-Id: 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A3A8BD0E-59D6-4598-945A-F26D9BCBA0C7"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:18:38 -0700
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Ole Jacobsen , Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Stephen Farrell 
To: Eric Rescorla 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>     
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: =?UTF-8?Q?vendor=3Dfsecure_engine=3D1.1.170-22c6f66c430a71ce266a39bfe25bc?= =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.425,18.0.790,17.0.607.475.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2021-10-27=5F05:2021-10-26=5F01,2021-10-27=5F05,2020-04-07?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F01_signatures=3D0?=
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2110270098
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:18:45 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_A3A8BD0E-59D6-4598-945A-F26D9BCBA0C7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii



Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of the series," then =
surely
we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?



> On Oct 27, 2021, at 10:13, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45 PM Eliot Lear > wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>=20
> On 27.10.21 04:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
> > I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> > I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for =
that
> > reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document
>=20
> Perhaps there is a way to state the perceived tension, in which we =
talk=20
> about the need to consider the heritage of the series while at the =
same=20
> time taking steps to maintain the accessibility/health/??? of future=20=

> contributions.
>=20
> This doesn't work for me.
>=20
> I think we ought to largely disregard the heritage of the series.
>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher
The Internet Protocol Journal
Office: +1 415-550-9433
Cell:   +1 415-370-4628
Web: protocoljournal.org
E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com
E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org
Skype: organdemo




--Apple-Mail=_A3A8BD0E-59D6-4598-945A-F26D9BCBA0C7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii


<sarcasm>

Well,=
 if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of the series," then =
surely
we ought to give it a more appropriate name, =
no?

<sarcasm\>

On Oct 27, 2021, at 10:13, Eric =
Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45 PM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi Eric,



On 27.10.21 04:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,

> I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is =
minimal.

> I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for =
that

> reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document



Perhaps there is a way to state the perceived tension, in which we talk =


about the need to consider the heritage of the series while at the same =


time taking steps to maintain the accessibility/health/??? of future 

contributions.

This doesn't work for me.

I think we ought to =
largely disregard the heritage of the series.

-Ekr


-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher
The Internet =
Protocol Journal
Office: +1 415-550-9433
Cell:   +1 415-370-4628
Web: protocoljournal.org
E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com
E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org
Skype: =
organdemo






=

--Apple-Mail=_A3A8BD0E-59D6-4598-945A-F26D9BCBA0C7--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 10:51:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62B03A0E7B for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1XLAief9kufb for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:51:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0FDA3A0E7A for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:51:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id w10so3812515ilc.13 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:51:33 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=grQssvCV54pYeaUY6Wt15I0manpQ5HYHPm+bblK0eHo=; b=UymxPtW26BPSkImwoV8UeTgFF9qxon4DvBQOOr30SrOsf6odscaE3i1kBzQz7bTuBV kz405dvKY0wFG3dDu3RIvKTOGqc1lGa+NGhLWAfWnqvNaI1Dg6P96+PQKL3I2MfnAMuf 3nabxADshH90/9sPAD5EQWZFR+eSeCn6ULFgJ2UrIz4q95+KRPrkff7pnjatJNSVyGHQ EuFWBUg0u46caWJpDwtL4+Haqw76Y+ZSb0viafS55C8FrrN13rsKxyA9ze99RO/XPz/s vKUVIU4DROevbw2c6EKHPVEsAHR/XdCxGlCpCuxOHg5ydr5TUDVnk7NNnchPYHXENgx0 4Yjg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=grQssvCV54pYeaUY6Wt15I0manpQ5HYHPm+bblK0eHo=; b=EeMwzavf1MT135l7Hzk75upB8rNnyJjvd4KoYAsYcqLbAhOawLm4/eTPzNAabXEAsg +kvcZqF1PVOf32Iv5OxIkDTr5Vvl2yq44VBTU1O+VsB7qD6QHbLlLMxID6CFYt6JsEgJ Mp1a5tzIOyHFVUWTG9roED+8ul5foA24Ytg2r1rS4XUUaDxeo3NRb5wfKjKiVfbnG0Eh 0KUGyvAxY/V4RGJw+EEZnM4ZY7fGvIetW6RwY2dpvI9O1hegwnhEElGNeXVwnhJ+Mi65 1bVaKVtCgh00ez66+vW5DtYzvSy47ByXGTJuN4yQcEKTPmKy0Y8+Cs0N8uUXGXNw+6n+ bQHg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53338461+fsY+XJAytPAY93a+1JuDquszjv1COZJM7FEOeNMkRxE ZHXfYpAWD7nVQuDjU4+b5XYnciKLq2pcKJiOPVfx8g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw9s20YUoSV0OqN4mjO/T0zCE18KOm3uZtYtXriy0cQ0RdgoXAgTLDdhzfy9hQPhfnRV3wKz1hUK1HjjIQtGfo=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:164d:: with SMTP id v13mr18881153ilu.10.1635357091986;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>      
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:50:56 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Ole Jacobsen 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Brian Rosen ,  Internet Architecture Board , Stephen Farrell 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008c8f2b05cf593e35"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:51:39 -0000

--0000000000008c8f2b05cf593e35
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:18 AM Ole Jacobsen  wrote:

> 
>
> Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of the series," then
> surely
> we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?
>

That's a matter of branding, not heritage.

-Ekr


> 
>
> On Oct 27, 2021, at 10:13, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45 PM Eliot Lear  wrote:
>
>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> On 27.10.21 04:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> > Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,
>> > I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
>> > I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for that
>> > reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document
>>
>> Perhaps there is a way to state the perceived tension, in which we talk
>> about the need to consider the heritage of the series while at the same
>> time taking steps to maintain the accessibility/health/??? of future
>> contributions.
>>
>
> This doesn't work for me.
>
> I think we ought to largely disregard the heritage of the series.
>
> -Ekr
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
>
> Ole J. Jacobsen
> Editor and Publisher
> The Internet Protocol Journal
> Office: +1 415-550-9433
> Cell:   +1 415-370-4628
> Web: protocoljournal.org
> E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com 
> E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org
> Skype: organdemo
>
>
>
>

--0000000000008c8f2b05cf593e35
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:18 AM Ole =
Jacobsen <olejac=
obsen@me.com> wrote:
<sarcasm>

Well, if we are t=
o "largely disregard the heritage of the series," then surelywe ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?
<=
div>
That's a matter of branding, not heritage.
=


-Ekr


<sarcasm\>

<=
blockquote type=3D"cite">
On Oct 27, 2021, at 10:13, Eric Rescorla <=
ekr@rtfm.com> wrot=
e:



On Tue, Oct 26, 2021=
 at 10:45 PM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi Eric,



On 27.10.21 04:05, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> Given the number of people who seem invested in that heritage,

> I think the risk that we will underweight that heritage is minimal.
> I think the risk is far greater that we will overweight it, and for th=
at

> reason I am opposed to any text of this form in the document



Perhaps there is a way to state the perceived tension, in which we talk 
about the need to consider the heritage of the series while at the same 
time taking steps to maintain the accessibility/health/??? of future 

contributions.

This doesn't work fo=
r me.

I think we ought to largely disregard the he=
ritage of the series.

-Ekr


-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/rfced-future



Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher
The Internet Protocol=C2=A0=
Journal
Office: +1 415-550-9433
Cell: =C2=A0 +1 415-370-4628
Web:=
=C2=A0protocoljour=
nal.org
E-ma=
il:=C2=A0olejacobsen@me.com
E-mail:=C2=A0ole@protocoljournal.org
Skype: org=
andemo








--0000000000008c8f2b05cf593e35--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 11:49:03 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B0F3A1076; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.219
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Em4Ci4U0IDkc; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAD823A107A; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19RImlRj1379682 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:48:48 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635360529; bh=tb4IOTx7U+oMS7AB1eju2lu7WWO44GVg0eZu8hYszqg=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Aj5PyuM2XUGUZtQVwzuHqim5xMX3hzoU56FNEqX4aD6DMEngfXyvy1RQhLRTb8Qz9 dX1aWJhJIXaevEbzgzqc1wfkCSbiu2ASjn+WyKWej7LjQihfAP8NqW+HPl+aYrNLmd ZcfxfJfRgyMu1GDKPJoMyABe/snlzihKKgqvaZz0=
Message-ID: <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:48:45 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla , Ole Jacobsen 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Stephen Farrell 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>       
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------8fTjtf2A8HDDIoOCk86Y10KB"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 18:49:03 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------8fTjtf2A8HDDIoOCk86Y10KB
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0C2Fo7WQgmM0wgl5VL43o6Z0";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Eric Rescorla , Ole Jacobsen 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board ,
 Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------0C2Fo7WQgmM0wgl5VL43o6Z0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------JQbQ2uLM6m1gmi2xjb55axSh"

--------------JQbQ2uLM6m1gmi2xjb55axSh
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------9U2awlqxSRp04N1DQEoybVlw"

--------------9U2awlqxSRp04N1DQEoybVlw
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------9U2awlqxSRp04N1DQEoybVlw
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    


    

    
On 27.10.21 19:50, Eric Rescorla wrote=
:

    

    

      
      

        


        

        

        

          
On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at
            10:18 AM Ole Jacobsen <ol=
ejacobsen@me.com>
            wrote:

          

          

            

              
<sarcasm>

              


              

              Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of the
              series," then surely
              
we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?
=

            

          

          


          

          
That's a matter of branding, not heritage.

          

        

      

    

    
=C2=A0When I think of heritage, I am thinking of archival aspects =
of
      the series, but perhaps the word "heritage" is just too loaded.=C2=A0=

      But I think at this point, maybe we are better off leaving that
      discussion to the RSWG.=C2=A0 Nothing stops the RSWG from engaging =
in a
      "vibrant discussion" about how to address this issue.=C2=A0 I'm not=

      sure it has to be decided in the this document.

    

    Eliot

  

--------------9U2awlqxSRp04N1DQEoybVlw--

--------------JQbQ2uLM6m1gmi2xjb55axSh
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------JQbQ2uLM6m1gmi2xjb55axSh--


--------------0C2Fo7WQgmM0wgl5VL43o6Z0--

--------------8fTjtf2A8HDDIoOCk86Y10KB
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF5nw0FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPd
aggAta4geXIic3ZT1p7zteyi8asmF37/k2bY1Q054D5JeQWwlNVDtv7JT1N5tYKwMqIetZ3/HAo5
I244mXO4lkGHPIt0Eir77uZYPVkiZ8mb4lj5Pg0DUzVGizscgXcaJxO0JvYstPCvMS4sEggXo5sh
YEyjSGIik/ZU9YayfdTABPqxGSdPsFCD7oWAUdZPA7I1s0bNiJG+eS1X66SM61yQbl//YH7lOO2V
eDQmtRyxuYL6Pt0BptZntImu4i+Iw4UVITmg0g0qiprgPJRXrc5TP4V7WKcG2qh3mQ0Hh0q3J8Y+
I1F/cjD3ceAc+J3EnO7OTd/Ibi4Kw0kUj05BSkSIAA==
=52c5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------8fTjtf2A8HDDIoOCk86Y10KB--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 11:52:22 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672FE3A10A7 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WW_CEGDl4Fx4 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A49CE3A1085 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id w10so4006091ilc.13 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gq73RrY8C0ysAjE1EcwZfbMKLQ8wVRDOEkaAZa+Z6gM=; b=Gqx8ocr6e3wwOZip9EwK0SfuMW5AC7b7vb4q0gmlWXuIqTpNflVVZmWUvSh+XreZjl 8P7gWa1zKJ4v33LCiCnb6ppKR2wDABWDKTHM7zWaAq7Jj/e2SonJm7va8idQcaC9ZDGu Pv7Sc7NQq8PDPL165GtAOptNb2u8+9+PmzMu3OS7cVd/so3nmRc7YvoS9fBXAetUFfik Ku5JFNO4nbcC0ReA0ovOWPZQgzAKj6CeH5sTtNvFZIjaEzVOkKjRfxES/WfJ9FsscSPo xt9ARDz9WSUgBi+Yxi4zsz5Zz+6PVBWhGdwawTNqDctTof/dqIZFu05fjnlI5ENGIdaw j2nw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gq73RrY8C0ysAjE1EcwZfbMKLQ8wVRDOEkaAZa+Z6gM=; b=A2ZmN0UQ6/59q+FrnAdal3vn5HyDuQOU8oilv3VC/JUpa0QzYcA6RuLqK2jNHqjBFF TfVVkogG/Ml03j2GIjxQ7GdlFVWbbnYtHrY0dDLfZ2uRZcjjTTSlF2mRlZfVCHpkZ7pV Gt3zniR5wl0P2YLpcOG87RU7ov4H1hHVRUyF5saq4Ma1AZkeqAuo3jD8fzlsbG3LWhj4 e8EezNamho04MNrv5MIR2/rVaVdaPScPxUP4prKNSM8XOVFaB/CYQWmCw9Xukx9pD8cO AAzEmSbrRw3yyuawtXtynYdUscfy80iunFAnO7XS2sy7B04EzY5SURM99WnVKKxEKILh eRMA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532AdFN1OnOPEB5Ltuj5bvcIg/m5z8cxba+TGjrmHZMDLF9q2YRI aogav2Ozbg/6A9JwxaA94A7bQc+fj5O1h43z2bLvLg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMFTsptRjXg0qlHIivxRnjjLqi/4qM0UPaSRedzso2k7yycYNsDivXWbGTQCv6QyyXjCVjQHr9lwHfqTP7y+M=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:164d:: with SMTP id v13mr19075848ilu.10.1635360730889;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:51:34 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Ole Jacobsen , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board ,  Stephen Farrell 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000071df8405cf5a1777"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 18:52:20 -0000

--00000000000071df8405cf5a1777
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:49 AM Eliot Lear  wrote:

>
> On 27.10.21 19:50, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:18 AM Ole Jacobsen  wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>> Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of the series," then
>> surely
>> we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?
>>
>
> That's a matter of branding, not heritage.
>
>  When I think of heritage, I am thinking of archival aspects of the
> series, but perhaps the word "heritage" is just too loaded.  But I think at
> this point, maybe we are better off leaving that discussion to the RSWG.
> Nothing stops the RSWG from engaging in a "vibrant discussion" about how to
> address this issue.  I'm not sure it has to be decided in the this document.
>

This matches my position.

-Ekr

Eliot
>

--00000000000071df8405cf5a1777
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:49 AM Elio=
t Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
<=
/div>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    


    

    
On 27.10.21 19:50, Eric Rescorla wrote:

    

    

     =20
      

        


        

        

        

          
On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at
            10:18 AM Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com>
            wrote:

          

          

            

              
<sarcasm>

              


              

              Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of th=
e
              series," then surely
              
we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?

            

          

          


          

          
That's a matter of branding, not heritage.

          

        

      

    

    
=C2=A0When I think of heritage, I am thinking of archival aspects of
      the series, but perhaps the word "heritage" is just too loa=
ded.=C2=A0
      But I think at this point, maybe we are better off leaving that
      discussion to the RSWG.=C2=A0 Nothing stops the RSWG from engaging in=
 a
      "vibrant discussion" about how to address this issue.=C2=A0=
 I'm not
      sure it has to be decided in the this document.

This matches my position.

-Ekr


    

    Eliot

  




--00000000000071df8405cf5a1777--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:10:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE8F3A117A for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.226
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IS513DCsQCLi for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE7F23A1177 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id a132so2596740qkg.0 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=8pqBvY3+RaJbpTjJiCm3WbXvz+KA++xvSqANS7U6sDw=; b=uN8CCe7LJp3s9MDAuxBE0mLBWGHjpPNhfL4ZFcw5H3ooxI+C3ME5Ph4i75tqu46UNq glC7iWnINRmKlF0ANqC8v2y4HvkmfI01Pw6cTErAAsFoR3lG8ZYlc7hT8lTwdf99Jxwq Ay5la8aUkGqpgVHIkNxX8PTCAh3tdWizs6g8chrdwERqEUJe/RKK7qFq7Z5ghJvSypJ3 20FlpIJWYzjbTm+dVNkhXm0QO+TN5ZA6dvOeLBtVeiOgjUKN91cS4pgFAi6i66tej1aV aOEKDWxyZ1O7Hzg63QHDbT1xH1SeuAka8CFhd6Ffu4AbpFl3BKqcbhCpg8yfmrW+e+EX V3EA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=8pqBvY3+RaJbpTjJiCm3WbXvz+KA++xvSqANS7U6sDw=; b=cZgyWw23HweMRWik7/2fTrH9z9s1TD3lpNMt/A6Bvq/qrIoSjHDXo/Lxv/Qeb0DzWo NCqUK4Zt96HqZla9g6dl1+wjmlZw46fT0zawOcoHUvd39L8aofIMlWKRy/t7emjIr4y7 Q/ErtPhI7xCkp2MXDRid3YHDcMUryscAGn3JEImqMBd1gLa+ZMgziUz4nd+A/Tnb+rAM YAEAuxq/QFn6Ou5wGbChGVjNeYv/BCduJ48i8zc4quntZjfw8INwe2AZl84bY2t8okHz iWOGBb5XnAnV2E08G7JxEYA4/kycADABynJt4XfAY/9tz4wr0yiOrTy2a2rbgbCrzv7X pieg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hogFmEFFEM+0DXVtppi1LPxugYiyXRc46MO31uvsnO3QDky5j X3kUZ3eaIQxX86J9pgl3iwmNbSz3kLnQ17Y6Ciw=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzO1CkavmQcvVIQCdBHKIviTebHITgdUD7jtUYUULvgXklOQVKUfk4uXL5Wt8JAh0k2q42wbg==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:24cf:: with SMTP id m15mr26079855qkn.434.1635365408317;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bs33sm643480qkb.130.2021.10.27.13.10.07 for  (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4fDs0vCzRFJ9zOOP0mteV6tj"
Message-ID: <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:10:06 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:10:17 -0000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4fDs0vCzRFJ9zOOP0mteV6tj
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/27/2021 2:48 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>
>
> On 27.10.21 19:50, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:18 AM Ole Jacobsen  wrote:
>>
>>     
>>
>>     Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of the
>>     series," then surely
>>     we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?
>>
>>
>> That's a matter of branding, not heritage.
>
>  When I think of heritage, I am thinking of archival aspects of the 
> series, but perhaps the word "heritage" is just too loaded. But I 
> think at this point, maybe we are better off leaving that discussion 
> to the RSWG.  Nothing stops the RSWG from engaging in a "vibrant 
> discussion" about how to address this issue.  I'm not sure it has to 
> be decided in the this document.
>
> Eliot
>

Hi Eliot/EKR -

I disagree with the two of you and agree with Stephen and Ole. I don't 
have text as yet - I'm still reading over the current draft - but expect 
to provide some prior to the 5th of November. This is just a placeholder 
to ensure you don't consider the point closed.

The "good of the series" - to borrow EKRs term -  has to be informed by 
its history, accomplishments, impact on the Internet (in all the eras - 
and with all the motivators), as well as current and future needs.   
Wiping that slate clean by ignoring all of that and refusing to let it 
play in how we expect the RSWG to operate is both short sighted and  bit 
mean-spirited towards all of the people and communities that got us to 
this point and will tend to set us up for failure, or at least less than 
useful results.

I believe I get from EKRs posts that he wants an RSWG mostly unfettered 
by guard rails, or at least free to ignore history and long term needs 
in favor of what the current loudest voices on the RSWG want - I 
apologize if I misrepresent his position, but I submit there's some 
evidence for my belief.   I half expect there are some number of drafts 
already written that await only the creation of the RSWG that assume a 
clean slate.

I further believe that the RSAB will probably feel that it needs to 
provide those guard rails and will, at times,  reject documents that the 
RSWG proposes for the sole reason of "for the good of the series" 
probably leading to finger pointing and appeals.  I suggest that such 
conflict can be minimized by describing an overall philosophy in this 
meta document reflecting the heritage of the system that the RSWG has to 
color within and that the RSAB (on behalf of the broader community who 
lack the cycles to make loud noises within the RSWG) can live with.

Mike




--------------4fDs0vCzRFJ9zOOP0mteV6tj
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
On 10/27/2021 2:48 PM, Eliot Lear
      wrote:

    

    

      
      


      

      
On 27.10.21 19:50, Eric Rescorla
        wrote:

      

      

        
        

          


          

          

          

            
On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at
              10:18 AM Ole Jacobsen <olejacobsen@me.com>
              wrote:

            

            

              

                
<sarcasm>

                


                

                Well, if we are to "largely disregard the heritage of
                the series," then surely
                
we ought to give it a more appropriate name, no?

              

            

            


            

            
That's a matter of branding, not heritage.

            

          

        

      

      
 When I think of heritage, I am thinking of archival aspects of
        the series, but perhaps the word "heritage" is just too loaded. 
        But I think at this point, maybe we are better off leaving that
        discussion to the RSWG.  Nothing stops the RSWG from engaging in
        a "vibrant discussion" about how to address this issue.  I'm not
        sure it has to be decided in the this document.

      

      Eliot

      

      

    

    


    

    
Hi Eliot/EKR - 

    

    
I disagree with the two of you and agree with Stephen and Ole.  
      I don't have text as yet - I'm still reading over the current
      draft - but expect to provide some prior to the 5th of November. 
      This is just a placeholder to ensure you don't consider the point
      closed.

    
The "good of the series" - to borrow EKRs term -  has to be
      informed by its history, accomplishments, impact on the Internet
      (in all the eras - and with all the motivators), as well as
      current and future needs.   Wiping that slate clean by ignoring
      all of that and refusing to let it play in how we expect the RSWG
      to operate is both short sighted and  bit mean-spirited towards
      all of the people and communities that got us to this point and
      will tend to set us up for failure, or at least less than useful
      results.

    

    
I believe I get from EKRs posts that he wants an RSWG mostly
      unfettered by guard rails, or at least free to ignore history and
      long term needs in favor of what the current loudest voices on the
      RSWG want - I apologize if I misrepresent his position, but I
      submit there's some evidence for my belief.   I half expect there
      are some number of drafts already written that await only the
      creation of the RSWG that assume a clean slate.

    

    
I further believe that the RSAB will probably feel that it needs
      to provide those guard rails and will, at times,  reject documents
      that the RSWG proposes for the sole reason of "for the good of the
      series" probably leading to finger pointing and appeals.  I
      suggest that such conflict can be minimized by describing an
      overall philosophy in this meta document reflecting the heritage
      of the system that the RSWG has to color within and that the RSAB
      (on behalf of the broader community who lack the cycles to make
      loud noises within the RSWG) can live with.

    
Mike

    


    

    


    

    


    

  

--------------4fDs0vCzRFJ9zOOP0mteV6tj--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:17:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C303A1194; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id USpZn47U8moq; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr40118.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.4.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A12B3A1193; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:17:10 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=A5rXHghP5eS3+H966l5y93g2UUiDZgwEjHsDha2OAJCwYA/95kg3jvPU7eHL7dSXUD0Ug/uQSjcT6gX1hYuWlSsiBmwmZjBuLjFPXB4MtznbdD+uW8/Ku0DA/QdXTId5u6eJo9kDu8ehvISfhV+91L001nCSxYGg85zcp2U65Q5lfr0uq5mEgWHIHAbJBfy1XMI8mhUYL2CQhDyVqvMVw9Ti3nxMfzZj950XXOEmKwVUKXk6jwolNlUYo24PLUAG2LUaEGS1nOyQny1zbUQUs1haR37qFpeTqPeZkUCn2Cy9gNzCUJie6JTEoILSXEFdl5aPNiO5NnvuLcJ56ZFxOQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=6CxvaF7BAWWsNE4owGNtPDMrECpa59KtK+LCkPJBOm4=; b=ZRGelhfyVrjL9ZL9JXfQw4klevS6n7qkrxqh1a1opo1ih4w4I9hP1HiPAytLoogSKIuPKwInryfuEQjsPxs6CIgL4Jnc5crZ7eQCjM7l2l+9Hs+WKbbU18mpZ8xWUAz0/uhTqMJb4maNPzx6TlSZGhCS+lx/5MHH9RZ0DecUnOQGrz22JR57hxUaKfNVXive2pCY+ZDoWvYmOPtNi1+sV1t14ny3qlWaNJbxHEnwYOBihwl9pUZ7vH0cbwVlotLg5wek3fDtom1Z7Zykud/HBECDtUR8Vema8VJjAn6Ck2Gd/X0TiUDLzrQV0u+EBrkRMhMja7EZJ5bJgKeA2GqDBQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=6CxvaF7BAWWsNE4owGNtPDMrECpa59KtK+LCkPJBOm4=; b=BTKh31bzuaWAZxyeSYTqNnaRJAtIiu7UCK6I9JGPZ/xZWD/DNldHDOggkp/hYHCWOib/ITTDdzRj06mOVPjxAm/WHW/A0Ik7F2lSgzV1HFk3cju6v7mvynYd085H4gDfYeGIZ+O80/rVy1qnmOmrW4Vu/f9CdGVIlfxH76UeMXF8aXctIjzMbj4h0KiP8KgBAskhuSgzPcQDEr+clwRKFzaMhGdCrROTyoKdGXt53W9AWmxPrUQGrTX4LlWHSWFWGS0trPINGzsgG2hc04tGJEyB5j/ZJXpKaZNZDyHBMqiRszrFu3ugNS7fIlowiKsTcPyMYh+1pgrkGqHVVn+1ow==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (20.178.45.207) by DB6PR0201MB2373.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.169.222.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.18; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:17:06 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.015; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:17:06 +0000
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> 
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 21:17:04 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FDWnfBTteowYzjR5kHkzh2rQOIh0Ff87V"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB8P191CA0022.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:130::32) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB8P191CA0022.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:130::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:17:06 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: c4ddb172-f1ea-40a7-1495-08d99986bf71
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0201MB2373:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:3826;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(44832011)(66556008)(66476007)(21480400003)(86362001)(66574015)(33964004)(31696002)(53546011)(31686004)(16576012)(66946007)(83380400001)(8936002)(8676002)(956004)(508600001)(4326008)(2616005)(6486002)(36756003)(786003)(2906002)(26005)(5660300002)(6916009)(316002)(186003)(38100700002)(235185007)(54906003)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?akVIRER1N0Q2UFJPaEFLU1ozVFE2UkVUUkxEUWpsSkF3cmJHRldyQVF0RU5x?= =?utf-8?B?SVorUUtKMnZNZUlXWU1iMXZzbFc5VlAvY2kwZzJCQ1ZtMzRSR1JKZnRMM2FK?= =?utf-8?B?MmVrU0p1RHdvdXJLYXhUUXJ1cDRoV1h6eUJpNkhqQVo4YUtJTmxpUkhoRDRI?= =?utf-8?B?TGxJRUtWUXdPMFYrVk8rQVpLOUpaRkdLNVNXS2lxUklOdW5UMUxtOXI5eFhG?= =?utf-8?B?aGlVdzBoam1xRFpIeHVaSWlPV3pkbEw3MXR5NmZld0I4QWFvckgwN1o0Vm9a?= =?utf-8?B?U1NGbWdxbVp3aVVhR3Azc2E4L2hmMkY4UFprd0M3QTlucXk5ZkgzRWM2MXlq?= =?utf-8?B?c3k3TTBzZDc2aTFrUER3TG1xSG1yeXJNbURJVWNTWm1IYUdZKzBBUDRnSnAx?= =?utf-8?B?RjhYWWwzSllCQWMzNVBMQXVPR3NhcVZTRXBLWVRjZE1IbDhpZXo0MG53RXdG?= =?utf-8?B?c1FPaHlxS2Rxb2ozdnptRFU0ODZDREpmRVk1Rjdsd0xRRUcwaTh3Wmk2dm9x?= =?utf-8?B?QU5UMVlUdCtOaUZpK04xSnRPa0RnM0tyV3U2WFplcWFENUxmTThFWFpGWjFG?= =?utf-8?B?b0x5eU1UY1UySXVjWUNoN2g0c1FSZzY1WC8zVE50UEtSajJpSkRpeEN1ZDdK?= =?utf-8?B?aEVDczFUV0FUTEhmNFkycUhZYkxoSytGV3BJR0FrTktxZ21uaktvYmlSaXo4?= =?utf-8?B?UHRLZG41alFuUTVvWjNROWpzSUpJcGt3aFNBcXdCbXhnd28yTGh2Rkw5RFZh?= =?utf-8?B?MUt4ek9vSU9IY3ZJVm1pUDljTU5RKzRqVXQ0WGhRS0JVL09Cd0R5MTNPK1l2?= =?utf-8?B?cWlpS1VDaXFCVzJWYjdMdTNuUFdHZ3JDcDBMMzJZTWl1Rmp1TVVTOWJKUlBP?= =?utf-8?B?bm91Z0FJT0Z1ODdld1MyNXJlZWhqV1V5akZDbVp5c2Z2UUVlNnR3U2xISmRm?= =?utf-8?B?ZXp2dnN5T0x5aDJuM0k5L1hUc1RTdG5SMTQ2azJxQkMxZUViTUdqMVR6eURk?= =?utf-8?B?MC9JZFcwbG1xZTN4ck5sWGFsWVptdzd3S2xuTytKeE1ZTG9DVmNNYkhSVElh?= =?utf-8?B?cWsyUmphS0cvRXRLWXdrMCthZjhpanNOeEllSjNLS01TaXg0VlZrNXFUZVNh?= =?utf-8?B?azBmYzYwUDNhTTV6V2NUSDRZMC9SQVlRaWtlRTRxZXM4MExpREJ3a3lzT0pD?= =?utf-8?B?ZkNIZU1BU2FhdUt5bmg2THFUYnkxQUJsTnFRVWR3NHQ2MFozeU1xaXlCRzB2?= =?utf-8?B?bGhPMXJMMGw4MkFvNjFPM2NHaEVhaXBuL0p0b3JTbDhUQTBrelBJcXpwMGJZ?= =?utf-8?B?VFdvVFhSbjllR25iVVpaRHphdS9JTlIzWm1Ra0JNc0RtYkx5cVR5MFhPOHNL?= =?utf-8?B?RzVheDVHdVRTVktqcEw1ZnF6dmxHMzkvMXA2WEF5Mkl0NTJhbytGRzVia3pu?= =?utf-8?B?UlZHMkFqSGZmUEFweTNUZDdTQUozNlhHUFJsUUF4MHVOL2Q0YVVmbldJVXF5?= =?utf-8?B?VXR4YkhFQ2s5N0YrVVo0dU5UdE1iUWlpYzZwZVBMTXhGVXFPSk5CbEhtNlQx?= =?utf-8?B?cXlGUjQvdkc0OXZobUVRK2ljTFJ1Uyt2alpzZ3R4UGh5ekUzMlFsT0Q4RU9N?= =?utf-8?B?Ukg4OEhEOEp1MENvOWNZV3hZMm9ib0FEMFJJSi9iSXcyYUdxa1UwTXJxcnVY?= =?utf-8?B?MTVhNTlTTGkxNU8vWTZlcHFXNVRZM0VGSTNTTWsvVmdYRlIyRlNWV2NYSXU1?= =?utf-8?B?dFQvNXNLVHBOdHdTUHNUWitSb0RUcUpTOHlxaFgvczV3dVhsYmJKUlRsMkJS?= =?utf-8?B?OHJlL25BSVA2S0tnOE9iZlhTSS9KbjBPSWFkdE5jR0x3VFZOTkdDSWEzTVFm?= =?utf-8?B?KytkQXhMQTY0bVErOVJTdEhkTXZORjFLU2VWV24xL1BCcjl3NUpqS0NmUGZ2?= =?utf-8?B?K2ptcSszcnpJQ21sRmxYMnZmM3dpYkZoc1ZtRHBnc2pRUXFKazNZZXB6TnNN?= =?utf-8?B?VFdvbzZRdDV1QjhCTGJjaW1yc0xEWGxoUkZUcStKWGdTYStpZzUzRFo5R3dk?= =?utf-8?B?U1dUcVpQR3BSMW1uRDc0M1FyRWlkbFg3UTVYWllxanB1ZVFZQy9CbG9jbWRL?= =?utf-8?Q?Vl2U=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c4ddb172-f1ea-40a7-1495-08d99986bf71
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 20:17:06.7431 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: I+GBsirxWa1hbB4reNA4GaiSV2mEAqlu01JO+BJVufE8ijc05N6RxDbJqvuA92Ih
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0201MB2373
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:17:17 -0000

--FDWnfBTteowYzjR5kHkzh2rQOIh0Ff87V
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6NvCrPZ5WIQnz0Z92NdfVZineXXrS41h6";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board 
Message-ID: <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--6NvCrPZ5WIQnz0Z92NdfVZineXXrS41h6
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------B8916BB464F8668D26221507"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------B8916BB464F8668D26221507
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 19:51, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>   When I think of heritage, I am thinking of archival aspects of the
>> series, but perhaps the word "heritage" is just too loaded.  But I thi=
nk at
>> this point, maybe we are better off leaving that discussion to the RSW=
G.
>> Nothing stops the RSWG from engaging in a "vibrant discussion" about h=
ow to
>> address this issue.  I'm not sure it has to be decided in the this doc=
ument.
>>
> This matches my position.

FWIW (and it may be I turn out to be in the rough), not
mine. I think it's important that this draft provide the
RSWG with guidance on that topic. And if you look at the
text I proposed it makes this consideration *a* goal, no
more, so I don't really agree that heritage here is either
an emotionally loaded term, nor that it doesn't apply.

Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?
Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors
who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage
doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the
RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current
needs seems real. And I think it's also quite possible
that what seems currently quite sensible (in terms of
changes the RSWG might pursue) might be seen as a bad
move in another 5-10 years time.

Cheers,
S.

--------------B8916BB464F8668D26221507
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------B8916BB464F8668D26221507--

--6NvCrPZ5WIQnz0Z92NdfVZineXXrS41h6--

--FDWnfBTteowYzjR5kHkzh2rQOIh0Ff87V
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=mBFj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--FDWnfBTteowYzjR5kHkzh2rQOIh0Ff87V--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:22:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A167D3A11BC for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:22:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lSH8yMzl-_bc for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25BB73A11B8 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id r194so5266830iod.7 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WazFPAsCrQZTfXSeVWfl8laFMITwgDN82YcTmzZXRMk=; b=t3ifyq/Somj1VCVcow1gN57/4bbmeSL0gpe6X0EVuKrqAblIFGhEOLfiiZZIYriC8y GQeVSLk88bldhG08Up7RPrT2895YoZvalyu1inYiDnqJ++bPbqU7P9Afsl4I5tThZxHd HJ4MtIpAP6u88kCIsImJCIxgeQuY5VlYTkP9HyeMoayBvcBYZjd4o5VjhUiws8sQXe0X ro6KZxRwyKGwQIDqWM2NzYQIxdsW8bjK43mpJyanvKc4UJ2bjcylm1ZgFQZQNxfDDOn+ SH4bUrM7XqsMzcB6dGLuA5bmjQBbxcps13mrnu9UmkWe647Xxv5N4hxPGUEKgbf9v36S qiMQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WazFPAsCrQZTfXSeVWfl8laFMITwgDN82YcTmzZXRMk=; b=vH8GezduPeto+5maNEJ38wcrQNu27SIeKt9eUDiMMz2wVJpv8KcL9LpYdtqCHBCF2W llIuBM9Ne/nqhUxl9WB3xZ77vtdOxVApzUsxenT94eDhSBE7zv4EdwPZd4UepUpQIN1y 5YJzCOuBL5c3uY1Yu1LvS9xJCXBqo1LhMeziNLr276Z547yf+4GZ2XrbjZDPrub+IilR 7hgqttoMO3BjL9yudrRxoBIjhX5JpRitmTCWr3evPTJiLKZrxisF8R7Kwmuci1Idw04M 5hFQ5WvW4QzojvecFcbiAL0XfOIS0cHsyhaXfgMDkehBR/qA8byKMPmcJr9MR4SX2l7l /1oA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334ybe3kZN9ihvXq3TKec5poEC7mYFZLKD+w2j9DWe666bk1MSl 3kd3zJWhznFFXHYBvnv2tFQ9bCT3pkZRgdj11jNbgaybf10=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz24TsekzIQyR55MRwiGrcNZ6QneQyPQpcAFoKFfpTd0qt2PzPDjDJHCGL+AMoD7xvOFDoq3LbHE0B4GuOkOas=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:db0d:: with SMTP id t13mr21296922ioc.149.1635366140963;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:22:20 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
In-Reply-To: <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:21:44 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Michael StJohns 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e903a705cf5b598c"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:22:29 -0000

--000000000000e903a705cf5b598c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:10 PM Michael StJohns 
wrote:

> I believe I get from EKRs posts that he wants an RSWG mostly unfettered by
> guard rails, or at least free to ignore history and long term needs in
> favor of what the current loudest voices on the RSWG want - I apologize if
> I misrepresent his position, but I submit there's some evidence for my
> belief.
>
This partly reflects my position and partly does not.

My position is that the community, as embodied in the RSWG, should have the
freedom to
make whatever changes to the RFC Series it deems necessary, provided that
the
streams, as embodied in the RSAB, do not believe it causes damage to the
series.

I do not believe that the RSWG should make its decisions on the basis of
what
the loudest voices are any more than WGs in general should.

I do not believe that this document should predecide questions about what
decisions
the RSWG can make outside of the above constraints.

-Ekr

--000000000000e903a705cf5b598c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:10 PM Micha=
el StJohns <=
msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:

 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    
I believe I get from EKRs posts that he wants an RSWG mostly
      unfettered by guard rails, or at least free to ignore history and
      long term needs in favor of what the current loudest voices on the
      RSWG want - I apologize if I misrepresent his position, but I
      submit there's some evidence for my belief.=C2=A0
This partly reflects my position and partly does not.

My position is that the community, as embodied in the RSWG,=
 should have the freedom to
make whatever changes to the RFC Seri=
es it deems necessary, provided that the
streams, as embodied in =
the RSAB, do not believe it causes damage to the series.

I do not believe that the RSWG should make its decisions on the basi=
s of what
the loudest voices are any more than WGs in general sho=
uld.

I do not believe that this document should pr=
edecide questions about what decisions
the RSWG can make outside =
of the above constraints.

-Ekr



--000000000000e903a705cf5b598c--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:25:43 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC423A11C4 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i6E6B7KeeNOX for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 720A33A11CD for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id i14so5201443ioa.13 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wU+9e0PRSocmzHMXXZ7OSJIiDxW50BtgLQgamFYvtkc=; b=1OSBcWgulHtKcP1RJuPkY53xenq/PvRL9X5YZo7iIhkWzg+aIKW1uNL9faEOL7HNzj AZZ6iljOeFMyw5PL307KiJX+DNk2SVZuejEsZdwiPct6+tkysekEHQ1LA9u6pNugmTmp l67UeAscVWVtDXwuqItcXsV232Mjuzm4+0UN6tb2BCnc7TBfTWSNPJHJscO4K9RACh8o ixCDR65mOhhe/WZ85h1Vo5v/7/tUf3NSqIq5PrGHRxkVz3K2qJmSUifsZTebSbvA++Di SKaQ4WdzkSW+l/qthloDBGB8GSIA1QHAcd7WZ3zl732Q18MawJMNwdHV6c8La2X7FiYP 846Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wU+9e0PRSocmzHMXXZ7OSJIiDxW50BtgLQgamFYvtkc=; b=HvT+aTcaxAsmgyzrTdPOFSkoxLfer6vJ4pcsIrsIamZKOX/PwiFBDlX9cnmXkYEFHW YwkO4GjyoGr7/k77rZSl3HNiiKsu9Ntg9SldmHCv3tzA4toumJU9yyDQBTNeBtqNPoBN ixL3qvITdTTeGjVxDhGwGMOp6Gj6/QhAZPcTwehE3uN7SNe1T0IZJtcyFLUrTP8L8i4s rmoSfU9w4kKm+M0S/vBnlzFit7VP+2Cb1uJ0CMzdzIBK2S6K8Gr6Yi1n8OrplQcDN7K+ AjwsygGNUwiTK2FG0O+7HK0z2G21p49VkOvVPVzTrv0vbtiL2HsYkZ7p43Vu7KyMM5LX Hyyw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O+eUsmTwImJG4lJGD3I9fPekSABB+6Zsir1EeXq6xO0a1N49L haNeUBMXv5tlFVP0HnDA4L8F8NWi9q0mx+0N3RG89g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzXyG/va6y71yZP3KsCX6iP7xpO8eYjeWkNl0FhJLlz/NHLhQzspHlgqjrNsdOnw/k39QmwVPppTDo2eQ5NHEQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6e04:: with SMTP id d4mr6624428ioh.213.1635366332162;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:24:56 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e7a0b05cf5b6511"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:25:42 -0000

--0000000000004e7a0b05cf5b6511
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen Farrell 
wrote:

>
> Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?
> Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors
> who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage
> doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the
> RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current
> needs seems real.


My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of people
who in all good faith, believe that we should not make changes
because they would not reflect the heritage of the series and
thus there is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.

For that reason, I believe it is best if we simply leave the document
silent on this matter and let the advocates for each position
make their case on indiv

-Ekr

--0000000000004e7a0b05cf5b6511
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Steph=
en Farrell <stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?

Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors

who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage

doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the

RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current

needs seems real. 

My concern is the dual o=
f this: there are a number of people
who in all good faith, belie=
ve that we should not make changes
because they would not reflect=
 the heritage of the series and
thus there is a probability that =
those concerns be overweighted.

For that reason, I=
 believe it is best if we simply leave the document
silent on thi=
s matter and let the advocates for each position
make their case =
on indiv

-Ekr



--0000000000004e7a0b05cf5b6511--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:34:42 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35203A11ED for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.42
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bu2bYtrxk6E7 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC1343A11DF for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:34:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9916:9b8c:d136:30ae] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:9916:9b8c:d136:30ae]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19RKYVgR1431148 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 22:34:32 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635366872; bh=gnKj0Ff2wtKQOdZb9wyEWk8tc71HCn6GSRU1ufcY8Xo=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=gTRf/XSL9n+BM6/WapEutQ7UithZ9LBJ8d8eiYPgUdX0oanByybmz9QsqrvtRPxNh WHtziktqFYejYrOyxqMdCpKDTzePfdDgQ9/nDYS2NMEtSDhpUOr7UuPJ2za00vSPo8 WeATjSeE6vQJ93zMDNkbKLYvsarasQdl6N+UFoRo=
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 22:34:30 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2
Content-Language: en-US
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------N6Sf6BQ1WgbIUe0l863qcqQu"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:34:41 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------N6Sf6BQ1WgbIUe0l863qcqQu
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2s41vR4hPweKCynOljFGnN6P";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
 <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
In-Reply-To: <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>

--------------2s41vR4hPweKCynOljFGnN6P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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=

--------------2s41vR4hPweKCynOljFGnN6P--

--------------N6Sf6BQ1WgbIUe0l863qcqQu
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF5t9YFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNh
Swf/Rl45HxfVm8OFtrKfi9TUtPvp0v0HP/J/LqGrOc8gaPZMS5yMewYSgu01NAXs0xUuMYUmM4qF
N4LOdKR+tDl/+pCJUFuWfPld4+ZEjQGz4eR50azSXuin3EqMmvqolgfnIQ0gHSipOQrv14M8ftGH
Hb4x5Nx/OtWo5GDXedHjNk5krBYyKFjq/wU8LAAylBPrtkAAD3sTa46GoXZn4hQuMxEKbiX21rA4
Ofa3AE7JixQSu68J/hDr3VyfMAYBDfuExJPXTSHh4oucWXFfZhsNm3CZtMU5OMH2YS9N+YvvCWRq
6PpaAcUEkLiCwsDIH8fiZtAK+MV5u781ioa47tXWiA==
=kkLT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------N6Sf6BQ1WgbIUe0l863qcqQu--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:40:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2913A120F; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:40:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.329
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pz4XlR8Vrk6t; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:40:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur02on070e.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe07::70e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5D03A11FF; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=H8XovZjdYGc+30optM9MikOdD5YkZ99ZPlAjnBZV0d9NwOkTgHmMbU2OUzes05+9SJj6GU4tM51C8u4ZqNHSZBPuS2gXmdsyF7uMCl8cCvUPZZOunG2kMJcjWra/lIJG0569z/SC9PdB1jOfWR6oTlNH7L4eeYJFcfxcr3a3LahiDdjitm4i+jpYqc85a1dW5cOcxXDfZEwMgx4uiJ8A9ItuezqOYx2nW0dJqRWHxCz97bAUrD4RtWKUHzubW2y3fX0rRwa8bORZ4uxvbimY2pyUVsDlN7q1QLK25GawGCZ9bE38QjCiSHdW0rFqS0AE+fWQovVwXQSjPlhcFI4/1w==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=3ATkAOMjgfukErZUTe7A1sNsBEeqRxkbatya+ZwKaBA=; b=A10Qnh7IjknHc98TYiFmLmQClr8h3c50R2JHL2+RoskvZ3fnA4XlkHrui/W83T0OFTdB0zjqiwSjjopFjN5ZwsjAP2/cysI4XcHZtWxLONjOOteZcMzbxagPzltG1II2UYPfYm7Vit7aBVsIVc+/HtWmCVXw7VXQWRQBG3J4cLD8f9ZDJz0vus8jDErS0e5oBkrOTUK7ZNC5LmJdjTgRyQm7kr551zPH3qNDrsB5wbxLZ++9Dr9ftfPI/w/iHOBj8gl29z0gRCggwWMiu5BxljelYANT+LXbWwva6D+3BiNd0HpJY87DwNRAbt9cXPG7XNnw4IDj3KVMeVhIxofEBA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=3ATkAOMjgfukErZUTe7A1sNsBEeqRxkbatya+ZwKaBA=; b=qrmhTt74dSw0eAmXd44Pyqg474mf9frrrGrpC1erJtE23PskzFeq3sKCSVRoEQx0KqsAS3zu8DbnvdPxySiHezZn94SfQYDOC+tgGxQO5nAjV1MB2hIEor6wdkv8RnYWLnUQc7ntueFcwixTLsFFOtgtQUp2uzdal/V+zTGKYRS4rnVixePQmquyfbdUwucflkdSBzZzaYErU5b4kRjb8ByKkmdUrwr0wzXQOBT3iUHrpT3quBWNmCEK8jnlM9pCyzEN7UaTydGNiE/QuG+inWjeUYe+23oXZ8mFn00kVapIYX580F5bYHWVrQLBf3uvpnayDmyIFNTaOFDoggvwPQ==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR0201MB2087.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:43::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.13; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:40:03 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.015; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:40:03 +0000
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie> 
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <29148388-a3f5-74fa-b4c8-a9e6e89f1ee6@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 21:40:00 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OtJwQZ94iPLXVcqPbZ7S89RvzqQe7zrgk"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0501CA0007.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:8f::17) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB6PR0501CA0007.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:8f::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:40:02 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 8783c6f8-5783-4f79-c45b-08d99989f3b4
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0201MB2087:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:4502;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(26005)(235185007)(66574015)(508600001)(31696002)(8676002)(4326008)(6486002)(33964004)(8936002)(66476007)(66946007)(54906003)(31686004)(5660300002)(66556008)(956004)(316002)(2616005)(786003)(16576012)(2906002)(36756003)(53546011)(44832011)(21480400003)(38100700002)(186003)(86362001)(83380400001)(6916009)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?WlBhL1hZbGZXaml3c1RYREVrTmRGeDJRUEFaTEJnd0QwNitnUkdJOThteHR2?= =?utf-8?B?SERLK0VoQ3oySmE3NnY5ZDhyb3daOEljT01FalgyZENEVGppa2p2cWN2Vzdu?= =?utf-8?B?NnB6RFpEQWZMbmtwQkdtK3BRc1k3Y3hnRmR3c3ovYVNadlQzTUNqYStmUk9V?= =?utf-8?B?VmJJeU9VVzA1U1d2SlY0cmdlRURsdGppR1pXRGhaVVBkUHJDRkl0a29sZXo3?= =?utf-8?B?ZGxuUFpyanRlajBFMlpCdkMxWU9ZMW5NbisxQmtnK0V6YXd6SU0rN2tPeGIv?= =?utf-8?B?YWh2MllXM3k3ZUNHallUZjRDUlczYVFrNEQ4QWY2eVhSVkJmWVpLdzI3Ylov?= =?utf-8?B?Nis4U3l1MVhXOFhZOWRPNndkV051dXlHazBOS2JsOVQzNEtCWnJZbjUwMXJx?= =?utf-8?B?ZlJCWGNXRmRHVDg1QW9oNUIzdURRY0FJSGZGMVJLQmpjdmJ2MFFpNXdmSGFT?= =?utf-8?B?a0pPU2ZESkxyNzJCREhiRUZ0aGFXTDlILzJPZVgxRXdOSUNYYTR1WGR5RXhC?= =?utf-8?B?Z0dIbXR4TTJvaGlSckFNaWhmVWtuUHVxTWF0RjJKdzRVcUMwc0FiU3pndXJM?= =?utf-8?B?SG5TZDYwWFdpdEd0TUNqMitDaGhQVHJkaVNCQmlJNGtHUTZBZlFpUCs5ZmJa?= =?utf-8?B?MG5OU2dUbnhTeXUza0s0bHlHQ3BGS2xKTERNZS84Yk9Sc2pDbFhtL0hNY3la?= =?utf-8?B?VndZZE9yQTNib3Y4K09aK0Ztdk5CSzhibnI2RnlaZSszQnh2UGxTYXU1eDVt?= =?utf-8?B?dFdKZmJzQUVoNk9DdWp0UWZxUTJTQ0VSbmpMSlpab0s4RFFrc2t4Q2l6R3JF?= =?utf-8?B?QldhUlcvQ2txZGVxOW9uaXk4blRrZFZPejQ2dXpBSmlKOUV5bXZzVEtkNVc4?= =?utf-8?B?aGdxSXdQR0JsTEs5R1lkUGtqVTNFMmZrS3ZwbzJQcXVUa0JyV0RmOEVtSUlV?= =?utf-8?B?aVlIMk04emV1VTdSZkdSY2xhUFBxTTNmY1RleExxR1NtOUhxdDFwc3NBN2F1?= =?utf-8?B?SDBtcEpEc2tZWGpPejVvNUJ5T3dibzhldHEzbHRENjVZbVVaRjk4aVQ5Y01z?= =?utf-8?B?NnRTOUJUY2pMbnU5S0Z2bDlMbElEcDRaOHZFNHdyVDNKR3krdUJ1YmVJSnQr?= =?utf-8?B?c0ljbnBuREY3L2xSYWtydVFrbkVZb2NYbUJHdVlUSkpUNGJuRDZPMHZtTVB5?= =?utf-8?B?VW8zY1U4NkluSldCVFNaT2ZsZTRVOWo1S28wUmFxWkVFM09LdllmQ2Q1VVp5?= =?utf-8?B?Y0oxZ01SeEY2a0ptNGZkemp4TlNnM2FFanBoNkxUZVdaK0tlbHhvMTQxNkVO?= =?utf-8?B?ZThVMVVNdkI5QnpLd0ozQzVGMkdneWFQaVUweEl3WFBlRlh6TERKS3IxMkht?= =?utf-8?B?SVhLN2VpcktxeXpydGxiZS8yZjluMTBrWFFUR0xmUHhvTEVHOFBhc2JOOGpC?= =?utf-8?B?dWJKUVppVjd1MlE3L0lyZjQ0TzZodkE5WlZYUHhjcjMwTzBBaTdnTld5YUJo?= =?utf-8?B?bkJuUEZFRW4rSlNscjROcHljTDh1eFF2UTNjaTRLVmVPaTFTOU12OFE2Q1lk?= =?utf-8?B?MkVvL2xPM0d0MDYzN1A4T3FoZnhUWHJxbmFad2t0WVgydkpvTmdEekFpSWlj?= =?utf-8?B?VjcrSC81ZitWWEpKUy9icTA1UXpzQmNNRHZobXpadG1JMmwwZlVycTF1Y3lV?= =?utf-8?B?RUZsc21SVEU3NzRycWlKM0RKQVNBRHJONjJweURTV1BLRGlhYm12YWZSdE9B?= =?utf-8?B?VXlITFVDNTJKMERybXB0eWtyNUxQdFEwblgzK3gvSmM3ZTY0WjEySHpuWGdw?= =?utf-8?B?VEVLZ0RuVjdQbTA4OEQ0R1NNZWZsU3lGVkhPUFpOSHpQOVAyL3pETjBhZzhG?= =?utf-8?B?VnpzZEVjNCt5SGQxWkk5VDNhNDJ6cHJ0QUxFRU5EYVE1VEsvV1NiUmtRUlA1?= =?utf-8?B?alRlaEEwS2hjTUhzNjQrcVEwT2RlWTNqK3lJUEdHaitJalJLWnlIcEYvMFdh?= =?utf-8?B?MHVRRWVoWERFaGxnYlpJN3FKUGJUK1U3bmMzVmJ0eGJqdHFPZld5b0RBb25Z?= =?utf-8?B?OHZiWXhPeE9GL2NDYkphL0RYR21wM29USW5aUHdhTnAreE0xZDJXd0dvTm1q?= =?utf-8?Q?GrKw=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8783c6f8-5783-4f79-c45b-08d99989f3b4
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 20:40:03.1213 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: ARNCOgFrRznUBTiEH+0y1sm8NbKch8n7Nxz8up4qY4ca7Hn7/o3yKnk1vSJc/R6U
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0201MB2087
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:40:15 -0000

--OtJwQZ94iPLXVcqPbZ7S89RvzqQe7zrgk
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bbBlw8MepSvXLQ6glzjuENi0QTZyJF8rX";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <29148388-a3f5-74fa-b4c8-a9e6e89f1ee6@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
 
 <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--bbBlw8MepSvXLQ6glzjuENi0QTZyJF8rX
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------0D23F7F28942A9E715CAD312"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------0D23F7F28942A9E715CAD312
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 21:24, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen Farrell 
> wrote:
>=20
>>
>> Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?
>> Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors
>> who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage
>> doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the
>> RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current
>> needs seems real.
>=20
>=20
> My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of people
> who in all good faith, believe that we should not make changes
> because they would not reflect the heritage of the series and
> thus there is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.

Understood. I dunno that there are people who want no change
at all tbh, but yes there are people who would like changes
that do get made to consider the good of the series, and not
*only* the current needs of current I-D authors and RFC
readers. And different people will weigh those pretty
differently, for sure.
> For that reason, I believe it is best if we simply leave the document
> silent on this matter and let the advocates for each position
> make their case on indiv

I think there's another reason why considering the good of
the series ought be documented in this draft: those who have
a fairly long view of the series' heritage may be less active
in future RSWG discussions for various reasons. Now, it so
happens that I'd myself often disagree with a lot of what
some such people might say, but that's not so relevant here -
the point is that by it's nature RSWG discussion will tend to
involve proponents advocating for the latest fashions in this
and that, and the good of the series is way more likely to
overlooked compared to a fashionable thing, and perhaps
even increasingly over time as the set of participants
change.

So I don't think "defer this argument to the RSWG" would
end up with a level playing field for this aspect of how
we deal with the series in future.

Cheers,
S.


>=20
> -Ekr
>=20

--------------0D23F7F28942A9E715CAD312
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------0D23F7F28942A9E715CAD312--

--bbBlw8MepSvXLQ6glzjuENi0QTZyJF8rX--

--OtJwQZ94iPLXVcqPbZ7S89RvzqQe7zrgk
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=iLDg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--OtJwQZ94iPLXVcqPbZ7S89RvzqQe7zrgk--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:45:27 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E978A3A13A5 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27rJ2RhhuD7a for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79D953A13A1 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id j3so4404875ilr.6 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2epxppXqTpmY5KPxCvT2ayzo9W1Kst9IReD6wh0af1E=; b=cMwHAPmdXxcaDr96nPuD7Ru8GD1cpuDGmMj20NMPVCCgKLV8NSqk0T8RTaIQo2s78W djRIVgYyJlm9zVWXyQ2Aact2boT47v58utVf2KtmpW/5mw4LlZzc4NazpSf4DNuo1YYc mfoRc1LNUZGvaaGYGheZYKWXt6nc01SXKA3x5XE2jSTP2TCZIVBMzeEJ8o2LhM8iwLGi mcjs1GNNl0kgejKxaT2+S0tYx2vHC2xuIX5tJ33QH8O0ycIKKYR8DKJZK/jGXb7VF0LP flQjM1LzzRNq7asp0lolgajUgH1Clr48ICx+mxaXWaYIFCdOe6MwDDRnt/Nzd0kHNXww BDAg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2epxppXqTpmY5KPxCvT2ayzo9W1Kst9IReD6wh0af1E=; b=5Dh3uaOcBXENQd54IuTIq+cEDtTQz6/i9EttRFrBzVXeHtjVwOJ9+QRta/jgefqaZq MpP9VYdu8UxnvUy6d14LsGouL/GKLyaZPtN+iJ79m0oJcbg1nhkqDZ/0Fxai5NxWlrD3 lv1hycTLCxt04CxeVJhWcHyASJbwWP/lXXWJUVR4ohmKAib7HSzTkMZipoOVoiMA9qK6 gZQRYhYBTxhdeLc8r5ckxUJQn0IlDe3bi44hfq+FxINW4vGWwJMmG9oTpd7LTnQFrb2C pNUahWKQufLE7btswpKydSFY1Sc9o6tvb5acgEOjEadfPs7eREG7aX89ODToMo+Aldkg ssuQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5314oFbYb/rXxXuP/4kpcdVNRE4BJ/WtFHyZ1y84OLrzPmgeLrH5 kebPKG5n+zBPT7cxDg/yxYkIa0KIv2EQoQI90yB4cw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZHj+jFMGd9uW/n3Khy+y8yhzQEvUGTVGhmv2frsAERT/7JfiEOzVvdircHPVMNKRISAy0b7wI3Sup/QfyWWo=
X-Received: by 2002:a92:cc52:: with SMTP id t18mr105813ilq.276.1635367519971;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>  <29148388-a3f5-74fa-b4c8-a9e6e89f1ee6@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <29148388-a3f5-74fa-b4c8-a9e6e89f1ee6@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:44:44 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001b048405cf5bac40"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:45:26 -0000

--0000000000001b048405cf5bac40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Stephen,

Thanks for elaborating your position.

What you are advocating for is exactly what I am concerned about, namely
the weight of the past impairing the future's ability to make needed
changes.

-Ekr

P.S. I would like to note that "the good of the series" is a contested
term. I believe that the equities I am talking about represent the good of
the series.






On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:40 PM Stephen Farrell 
wrote:

>
> Hiya,
>
> On 27/10/2021 21:24, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen Farrell <
> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?
> >> Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors
> >> who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage
> >> doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the
> >> RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current
> >> needs seems real.
> >
> >
> > My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of people
> > who in all good faith, believe that we should not make changes
> > because they would not reflect the heritage of the series and
> > thus there is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.
>
> Understood. I dunno that there are people who want no change
> at all tbh, but yes there are people who would like changes
> that do get made to consider the good of the series, and not
> *only* the current needs of current I-D authors and RFC
> readers. And different people will weigh those pretty
> differently, for sure.
> > For that reason, I believe it is best if we simply leave the document
> > silent on this matter and let the advocates for each position
> > make their case on indiv
>
> I think there's another reason why considering the good of
> the series ought be documented in this draft: those who have
> a fairly long view of the series' heritage may be less active
> in future RSWG discussions for various reasons. Now, it so
> happens that I'd myself often disagree with a lot of what
> some such people might say, but that's not so relevant here -
> the point is that by it's nature RSWG discussion will tend to
> involve proponents advocating for the latest fashions in this
> and that, and the good of the series is way more likely to
> overlooked compared to a fashionable thing, and perhaps
> even increasingly over time as the set of participants
> change.
>
> So I don't think "defer this argument to the RSWG" would
> end up with a level playing field for this aspect of how
> we deal with the series in future.
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
>
> >
> > -Ekr
> >
>

--0000000000001b048405cf5bac40
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Stephen,

Thanks for elaborat=
ing your position.

What you are advocating for is =
exactly what I am concerned about, namely the weight of the past impairing =
the future's ability to make needed changes.

-=
Ekr

P.S. I would like to note that "the good =
of the series" is a contested term. I believe that the equities I am t=
alking about represent the good of the series.






On Wed, Oct 27, 202=
1 at 1:40 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,



On 27/10/2021 21:24, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&=
gt;

> wrote:

> 

>>

>> Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?

>> Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors

>> who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage

>> doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the

>> RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current

>> needs seems real.

> 

> 

> My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of people

> who in all good faith, believe that we should not make changes

> because they would not reflect the heritage of the series and

> thus there is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.



Understood. I dunno that there are people who want no change

at all tbh, but yes there are people who would like changes

that do get made to consider the good of the series, and not

*only* the current needs of current I-D authors and RFC

readers. And different people will weigh those pretty

differently, for sure.

> For that reason, I believe it is best if we simply leave the document<=
br>
> silent on this matter and let the advocates for each position

> make their case on indiv



I think there's another reason why considering the good of

the series ought be documented in this draft: those who have

a fairly long view of the series' heritage may be less active

in future RSWG discussions for various reasons. Now, it so

happens that I'd myself often disagree with a lot of what

some such people might say, but that's not so relevant here -

the point is that by it's nature RSWG discussion will tend to

involve proponents advocating for the latest fashions in this

and that, and the good of the series is way more likely to

overlooked compared to a fashionable thing, and perhaps

even increasingly over time as the set of participants

change.



So I don't think "defer this argument to the RSWG" would

end up with a level playing field for this aspect of how

we deal with the series in future.



Cheers,

S.





> 

> -Ekr

> 




--0000000000001b048405cf5bac40--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:51:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105393A13DB for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:51:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.228
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id egpPwWIyIi_Q for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8C1A3A13DD for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id v2so2644038qve.11 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zY+4OPndr12VxhDzJaSc2KjHiLgAWOG5USo1PnSA0XA=; b=lYv5s+n6BhntKEWrV+1dlyjPpRwpPvBDndiCB5S9UxLF3RJZBXSrZXCTyVL3epcJEm xdqq6FDoKUtOuxjcIQi2FDsposwUtMGrySBcJRg4WvJ2Hp9tXh0ajmnrvcdjGOHozmY4 KgcaxYkV69b48VW23aw4mfJQerBfzW0sLec+wNl9xgaAsUauVU63B8+MeHZVAmp6/NWi exM4/RegvCK1Q4hoK1U22fH/uoFfot1jNlx3RuT8xEyvq20tZ3ic5gfZ5SJpVusF/93k ALjhLiIPhpii4CrHgrYFHcNLyyH1gH4pUqeRwvJhMidg94CFCkn0f3YgPpuMHE0+skB/ s1GA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zY+4OPndr12VxhDzJaSc2KjHiLgAWOG5USo1PnSA0XA=; b=NsLhWGB+AkuHHrowj2O8PuoS5lMDMOpLhDyDhizGoYKkmzrVPVddONjnl6Es7WPh2x ajUD2OwLjYrit5Hzx8qPda/T+ogk8rLRpi4pyUpIzgxvj2lYSK4BxflPd8sgmM7ZdRwL 2g+ZFJNu94ABXvTosqWddZPXX+Davl/vXaMieiLIph1cdo+k+Zh7LwO3nIx/BD58rKjY vpxLjtcPn3zl/BocJCnIBrAvV3f0qSzSzCTGZ7pXz+ZnTVcqTyf9pkGRnom0VJcSz/NC sSY36XWGl5vKO3/qRmpkXK4PpmldcUhHr3VPu/Gg0YA9Uk6/wf1KTDTt2DQBonTSodcd /SBg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Vy1Pe4uZybGfpfSdRlJOigSy0aZ7xmkzmmOtbxo6HuoQBNaCp oHi6FkGxwIZOFuZtIDp2giznCg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIFYp69KpDYFnc4QaUk4kTy2k5ewz1DzNR/6ioTmZ6sQVrKxR/tOxMsQEtctL9xUJfaf5ByA==
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5bcf:: with SMTP id t15mr31899414qvt.59.1635367878671;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v20sm648106qtp.44.2021.10.27.13.51.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:51:17 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com> 
From: Michael StJohns 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:51:25 -0000

On 10/27/2021 4:34 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Mike:
>
> On 27.10.21 22:10, Michael StJohns wrote:
>> I suggest that such conflict can be minimized by describing an 
>> overall philosophy in this meta document reflecting the heritage of 
>> the system that the RSWG has to color within and that the RSAB (on 
>> behalf of the broader community who lack the cycles to make loud 
>> noises within the RSWG) can live with.
>
> I am wondering, what does heritage mean in this case to you, and how 
> might you describe how that might temper evolution of the series in 
> tangible ways?  That is- if we are going to make a policy statement in 
> this document, how would we know when it is being flouted?


Did you miss " I don't have text as yet - I'm still reading over the 
current draft - but expect to provide some prior to the 5th of 
November." ?  :-)

Seriously - I think we need such text, and it needs to be concrete 
enough that the RSAB can point to it when it refuses to advance an RSWG 
document so that "abuse of discretion" doesn't become the usual version 
of the appeals process.


>
> Perhaps if we're a bit more concrete, we can seek some common ground.
>
> And of course, people other than Mike should feel free to answer.

Of course.

BTW - I'd be interested in just what proposals EKR plans to make that he 
thinks might conflict with "heritage".  Perhaps if he's more concrete 
there, we can craft something that we all can get behind beside "no 
guardrails - no heritage considerations".

Later, Mike


>
> Eliot
>


From nobody Wed Oct 27 13:59:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6DD3A143E; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:59:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cigAfQlj6sHd; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr140104.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.14.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EAD73A143D; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=c8j9eb89RIWSRldTYa0y1zCqo8s72DpHJH3GrfWvCRSjUJvZdHipCGdxsEVh8ZcXrIyIF5WH2hblTYAkM9tGDUwxy/YdocADeJYKgK6yFLUM9LiJzLuNytdLKhIvxXOEv5sEorFsDyDmGy8tke6/r35JNFnK1FFt8Dd+f3r8vmpLtNszvoOdYN7CtCHLWmYDj0dNYe0By0qC3SCnX7RYBG5kx65HfepGvCpnbkHbPtzsCgyeQoiEdJq5qjsReyDGeCaVZ8QmtQg7XfA8qr2HHXrigDKeAvlqbmY9orTzm43UfDW1vGOBhbjKLvpOAy6QDbLb987TsM5+yQxRteJQXg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=QxNhgapvfLi8u+RY8X5GByZkkVDbz2iuz1BBaZRC1fA=; b=GdyDAudi5hiNhxzF7zAt3q2xZdirXIgNAr9lEGOHSRAAqoB+Arx3hCphO8wE8cQJ4G8nJNJydRvzGBnS1krJ7o+61UBb6VQ+25jfo3Y/oeVKnHL3sYQTk2N8ujGxKrQcYy3qwvR1JHE33ZzBu81kl4F4JdQoUMJcieB9MOfh9GtcbbHP65aGk8EWJ4I/7ABT32jcdObCpvtwTKxok+29G0SHKN0RW7F0xspQRMwuC8JoeqGX18WWML0/bo1NF9tPsORHIyUvRzgGR5a3rY+V5Ltb0x70wuChXEHxhTVjpSUNIdQHh49/YEQXsyjfeNIUJTpvsYVZmsZtaBXA85YNQg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=QxNhgapvfLi8u+RY8X5GByZkkVDbz2iuz1BBaZRC1fA=; b=ZTfWTiXssQumSRRLhGLrEkLJUyK7KmDs9vomVMwLZWHEQqaq/YPFOWRMZ5NKMFxZgv99ldV6WKNvk5k8YQJWZCksLczyaRNwm98Ya115B+7Z56ePF8YKrNX14vCWHTy6rQ3ifaMrWKsAEzVT5zwpIxzzv2slrFJ5LwTf+wX3HB4BrJpdSKDuPxqEOgIiGOK1AkZKUdm9s43ndh0JH1XhvH/gCpdgvcZAgjpGk/eERNoOkby4aPbHXhw0HlpLSFMfl4TgTCazOTSu4wC9//qyecjY486+1MAto4NyVVUDFQUmUi6y3NILrTeO6qCEVcPdzNYYOTccdVE5aL6h46CZwg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DBAPR02MB6311.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:17d::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4628.16; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:59:31 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.015; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:59:31 +0000
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>  <29148388-a3f5-74fa-b4c8-a9e6e89f1ee6@cs.tcd.ie> 
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 21:59:29 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jCBrRiGn9y85xfpUcJ3wQ7nneVBYjBTYg"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6P195CA0022.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:cb::32) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB6P195CA0022.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:cb::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:59:31 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6551d5dc-469d-4f21-f27e-08d9998cac48
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DBAPR02MB6311:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:5797;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(316002)(786003)(54906003)(16576012)(26005)(508600001)(21480400003)(235185007)(4326008)(8936002)(44832011)(83380400001)(2616005)(86362001)(6916009)(8676002)(53546011)(186003)(6486002)(36756003)(66574015)(66556008)(33964004)(66946007)(956004)(5660300002)(31696002)(38100700002)(2906002)(66476007)(31686004)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?M1pSY00wcW1FQ2s4NTI0V1l0WVdLYzZPVFFlWjJoREd2MzgzSGVsbEZ0NWVI?= =?utf-8?B?OXA1UU1ubkVhdFB2WkFKY0xQWFBpNmIyUjZ6TENmTUZBclNwNURRTGlva1U4?= =?utf-8?B?RGdTcEQxaXRydnNITUNrOFBIZ1ZhSHhJSFllWUlDVFlJdnlNb3o1MEFMSGE2?= =?utf-8?B?YlV1QVVFdTB0ZUUvdVJmYkthZXpmUFVoRVVrRmV5V3RqTERDMXpuN2xRQjFq?= =?utf-8?B?YWpuRVB0S2t6cHkweDAvNE51T0lxbC9qTDJmSlVtL3U2M2FNWm1Od1k2eHNL?= =?utf-8?B?T0o5WWFmcVBqelVZWEo3RlRUakFKTytoSnlpVG1pUjFvVnJ1V3NZVUV6UStN?= =?utf-8?B?ZlZ5YnlDOURJVm0xUC9sVnNEYXFUVW9qOXFDVHZmbGtWZ0hCa20za1pwNzl0?= =?utf-8?B?ZzNBZ2JXQThKeEZEaUx5Z3U3b2J5VS9QNE9oeGVBc0wvVHQwSkUxcnpvbDlK?= =?utf-8?B?RWVFb0ZQWDk2ZFZvV0Vuc0pMVllZNmo2RE1YZWJGaFRIYzg5ZlpwcU93TEhj?= =?utf-8?B?U0lXZHZsUzJaUXluNzUyRjVvQ3hRUjN5Q0hBYzZEaGNGdjkxRTZQc1NjU3VZ?= =?utf-8?B?YXZwZ2hwUjRLYkg0eTFvM3VVaTM5N0ZXVS9YWVl1QVdUUzRNZ1BVMEtYYlQz?= =?utf-8?B?VDNHNFl6amJFd2ZNcTlESGNidkJIVjdkY1FFcW1PVGk4bXZOcDY4M0NhY0g3?= =?utf-8?B?OHhNOXM2RkZYZEx4V2xFNnJRSG1DYmJrckZXUXhHeWp6N0lUaStYckhRbmIx?= =?utf-8?B?VmplSnFtT1VmbUxqenZINVlUWmxtOVE3RExzbzY3SmdrVnlHblhOUEVUbEM0?= =?utf-8?B?R20zZTJZeEpWUnRGOTI5bXJFSlBrZlp1MU1LTGJkS1lPSklta25HL0tmdUJP?= =?utf-8?B?d0I1K3dnQlNFWDkzdmZvbk5CSEUya1J2T0JlTU5wMkF0VVZjcjQrdDFmanA2?= =?utf-8?B?bVh1dlMvZk8vZ3crYVBuNTVidGgxbzcwV1JudGtON292VDY0N28wa3l0Rk1C?= =?utf-8?B?ZitLQXVBRCsvbkxBciszT0Z4THhOUGU2bStEWDJRSjNNWTJrZGd4VHBEekxL?= =?utf-8?B?SWlRblV3S2J6bjZKU2wybVNHdmpCWlR3QlBWbGF1RFdMSHBkbGt6aW11czQv?= =?utf-8?B?WFUzK0NOMWZCSHlBMEdHdUZqaWZ3NFJmcWRaM0tiTW1KcXRqTjFIZklJQ1g2?= =?utf-8?B?N21kNzhRbWNUeVFKNUFrWVllc29NcW1zSy9Yc2lXN0ttdU5mOGFCNldpUldj?= =?utf-8?B?QnhVTFpLK3JvT1RnOS83UWxiUWszWExaYVdwQlZZaHFoWDhHL1AwVHdqdlhp?= =?utf-8?B?MWRkbWwrZjhhK0tJL1VEL3BIOGI1YmFKVzJnZFplY3pLTFlEcWR5RE9YdlV1?= =?utf-8?B?eVNtRHlWU0pNczdzWmxHd2dKZHJTcVNGVW4xTXVrdTRaS1pRRXhySG9BUkda?= =?utf-8?B?OEFuei9GUmtabU5VeDc4TVZLSE0rRGNDZzJGK1BsWmw4WmFOS0JDelNucGZp?= =?utf-8?B?WFRPOVZveEduak9td2t3RXBGMWZ2b2xuaHRobG42aEdXN0I0cWlqa2IvbFlj?= =?utf-8?B?S2VtbnFaamNpMkVGcW5OSWU1MW5zeE5KVFFKbDlTeUY4UHVzOTl1NiswY0Y5?= =?utf-8?B?R3lhSFZxbHhPSXZPWi9rQXp0K0ZBaDlFOGJKRitJY3FiTWQ4V0lzTUttK1FK?= =?utf-8?B?NmdJMFM0WUVSc0pZSTVNb3cwSDhHMldWK0FxS1NwMlJaZkZmanNkUU81VkFv?= =?utf-8?B?SGFYR25Tb2dxMGxHWjA3YVdRN3BodndxbnVtYlB6NytsMzEzVHNBVU0wVnEz?= =?utf-8?B?cWkzVUNzQ3NVRmhUOFUzdE53OUVaTjFHWVAvOFpHa3pYSVIzbERSMW5QL21V?= =?utf-8?B?cm1ZTW9GblhFRk5yRi9oVGR2cHN6d08wZU9HYmJCUmJxejI3L25vY2tGZ2dj?= =?utf-8?B?U2xJd0tlcjZYSTlnaGsrbEg3ekp1cW54NUJ1WUIzd1pWSFdOS3VLK3h1b2Vv?= =?utf-8?B?UnM1TVdiWllJQmZrcE5RMTNyRFBrN1hZUVFIclpxQlZxVnFsajQ0OHZZL1A3?= =?utf-8?B?QythZkg3b1pDR3NlaTNyeFhYdDVtMk9XQzZGcVRHNTRKZDFxZmVBL2FqeTZ2?= =?utf-8?Q?SzOU=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6551d5dc-469d-4f21-f27e-08d9998cac48
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2021 20:59:31.5798 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: bQbTwsetivlRSR3S04Pzt6QGVbD2KmTu4jrfz7xlh6pQ8bBuIMG5Z9CJBlGvBbZB
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBAPR02MB6311
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:59:42 -0000

--jCBrRiGn9y85xfpUcJ3wQ7nneVBYjBTYg
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fGbZvt2ttffKWa5av8D8tEzLFdjSihxH4";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
 
 <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 <29148388-a3f5-74fa-b4c8-a9e6e89f1ee6@cs.tcd.ie>
 
In-Reply-To: 

--fGbZvt2ttffKWa5av8D8tEzLFdjSihxH4
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------AEAC2B9F11D8710C34415592"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------AEAC2B9F11D8710C34415592
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 27/10/2021 21:44, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Stephen,
>=20
> Thanks for elaborating your position.
>=20
> What you are advocating for is exactly what I am concerned about, namel=
y
> the weight of the past impairing the future's ability to make needed
> changes.

Yep. Different of us can see the same things as a negative and pressing=20
weight of the past or as a positive heritage to
be cherished.

I'd be ok if we at least recognised that tension and told
the RSWG to not forget that there are good arguments on both
sides. But I'd be interested to see what others make of the
whole discussion.

>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
> P.S. I would like to note that "the good of the series" is a contested
> term. I believe that the equities I am talking about represent the good=
 of
> the series.

That's a fair point. I think "the series" as an identifiable
entity is still implicit in your phrase though, so I wonder
do we agree that a putative RFC100000 ought be recognisibly a
descendant of RFC1 (in some non-trivial sense), or else the
series should have died before then, likely being irrelevant?

If we did agree that, maybe just telling the RSWG to maintain
that characteristic without further detail might be enough? I'm not sure =

TBH. If we don't agree, that's fine, no harm
trying:-)

Cheers,
S.


>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:40 PM Stephen Farrell 
> wrote:
>=20
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 27/10/2021 21:24, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen Farrell <
>> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?
>>>> Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors
>>>> who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage
>>>> doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the
>>>> RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current
>>>> needs seems real.
>>>
>>>
>>> My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of people
>>> who in all good faith, believe that we should not make changes
>>> because they would not reflect the heritage of the series and
>>> thus there is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.
>>
>> Understood. I dunno that there are people who want no change
>> at all tbh, but yes there are people who would like changes
>> that do get made to consider the good of the series, and not
>> *only* the current needs of current I-D authors and RFC
>> readers. And different people will weigh those pretty
>> differently, for sure.
>>> For that reason, I believe it is best if we simply leave the document=

>>> silent on this matter and let the advocates for each position
>>> make their case on indiv
>>
>> I think there's another reason why considering the good of
>> the series ought be documented in this draft: those who have
>> a fairly long view of the series' heritage may be less active
>> in future RSWG discussions for various reasons. Now, it so
>> happens that I'd myself often disagree with a lot of what
>> some such people might say, but that's not so relevant here -
>> the point is that by it's nature RSWG discussion will tend to
>> involve proponents advocating for the latest fashions in this
>> and that, and the good of the series is way more likely to
>> overlooked compared to a fashionable thing, and perhaps
>> even increasingly over time as the set of participants
>> change.
>>
>> So I don't think "defer this argument to the RSWG" would
>> end up with a level playing field for this aspect of how
>> we deal with the series in future.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>
>=20

--------------AEAC2B9F11D8710C34415592
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------AEAC2B9F11D8710C34415592--

--fGbZvt2ttffKWa5av8D8tEzLFdjSihxH4--

--jCBrRiGn9y85xfpUcJ3wQ7nneVBYjBTYg
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=DoMz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--jCBrRiGn9y85xfpUcJ3wQ7nneVBYjBTYg--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 15:29:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01893A1577; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfDGJlmwjP-p; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D7903A1575; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD9E49D9682; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QGKsyPhlSEsH; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F50549D9690; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:29:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Message-Id: <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B8679F5F-39B7-49BE-9197-BB13F831DE94"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:29:33 +1300
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Stephen Farrell , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Eliot Lear 
To: Eric Rescorla 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie> 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 22:29:44 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_B8679F5F-39B7-49BE-9197-BB13F831DE94
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8



> On 28/10/2021, at 9:24 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen Farrell =
> wrote:
>=20
> Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?
> Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors
> who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage
> doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the
> RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current
> needs seems real.
>=20
> My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of people
> who in all good faith, believe that we should not make changes
> because they would not reflect the heritage of the series and
> thus there is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.
>=20
> For that reason, I believe it is best if we simply leave the document
> silent on this matter and let the advocates for each position
> make their case on indiv

(no hat)

It seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of the =
RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is impossible to =
pin down as a general statement and is best addressed during a =
discussion on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the text is very =
carefully worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is necessary to =
avoid stagnation) then it would be such a blunt instrument that I would =
expect it to be regularly invoked inappropriately and to create friction =
because those invoking it would think they have policy on their side.

As to whether or not this will be forgotten about if not included, I=E2=80=
=99m not a gambler but I would happily take a bet that the chances of =
this not being raised during RSWG discussions, when it matters, are =
precisely zero even if it is not in the text.

Jay=20

>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_B8679F5F-39B7-49BE-9197-BB13F831DE94
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On 28/10/2021, at 9:24 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> =
wrote:



On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:17 PM Stephen =
Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Why do I think should this be mentioned in this draft?

Because ISTM we have quite a few genuine contributors

who, in all good faith, seem to think that heritage

doesn't really matter, and thus the probability that the

RSWG overemphasises only what are perceived as current

needs seems real. 

My concern is the dual of this: there are a number of =
people
who in all good faith, believe that we =
should not make changes
because they would not =
reflect the heritage of the series and
thus there =
is a probability that those concerns be overweighted.

For that reason, I =
believe it is best if we simply leave the document
silent on this matter and let the advocates for each =
position
make their case on indiv

(no hat)

It =
seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of the =
RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is impossible to =
pin down as a general statement and is best addressed during a =
discussion on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the text is =
very carefully worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is necessary to =
avoid stagnation) then it would be such a blunt instrument that I would =
expect it to be regularly invoked inappropriately and to create friction =
because those invoking it would think they have policy on their =
side.

As to whether or not this will =
be forgotten about if not included, I=E2=80=99m not a gambler but I =
would happily take a bet that the chances of this not being raised =
during RSWG discussions, when it matters, are precisely zero even if it =
is not in the text.

Jay 

-Ekr


-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_B8679F5F-39B7-49BE-9197-BB13F831DE94--


From nobody Wed Oct 27 16:58:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BEFC3A0F4D for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:58:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jMGgobQISSQQ for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E6453A0F48 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:58:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from xse447.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.193] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mfsoI-000CZp-Ej for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 01:58:24 +0200
Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Hfly4269SzBjx for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mfsoG-00081l-5i for rfced-future@iab.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:58:20 -0700
Received: (qmail 13352 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2021 23:58:17 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.63]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 27 Oct 2021 23:58:17 -0000
Message-ID: <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:58:14 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley , Eric Rescorla 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Eliot Lear ,  Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Stephen Farrell 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>  <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org>
From: Christian Huitema 
In-Reply-To: <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.193
X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24
Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15)
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/KoZw qfkbQ8MorE4kwMAnALrwbOl0qtP5EgfDRdSDhnwOSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVM+qRg7PrQXGXgaJUvCqrMnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4an1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dj1kvSgT4G6Wgcnfwvu7dYqC PbLgiGtSaMXi4C6mhhihb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlqxVTo4aJtyucB9AdPfZNru3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlaueeF RQJrnhLJKn5OuXfdLwox2+Za1rS3JIKewbbWPiVRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5ZHm49XguXEi1dkLYu 7eiDqxxHx5OlXOwSpUqAHfd6HCyN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A==
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 23:58:32 -0000

On 10/27/2021 3:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote:

> It seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of the RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is impossible to pin down as a general statement and is best addressed during a discussion on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the text is very carefully worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is necessary to avoid stagnation) then it would be such a blunt instrument that I would expect it to be regularly invoked inappropriately and to create friction because those invoking it would think they have policy on their side.


I don't think of that in terms of heritage so much as principles. I 
think we have broad agreement about most principles, such as making 
access to the discussion open and free. We also mostly have broad 
agreement on preserving continuity of the look and feel of the series, 
even if after tortuous debate we finally got  the format to evolve and 
allow such things as international characters or vector graphics. The 
only principle that I see regularly contested is the idea that once 
published, RFC cannot be changed.

I hear the arguments on both sides. On one side, RFC are archived 
documents, and we don't get to rewrite the past ever, so yes, once a 
document is stamped with a number, it is cast in stone. On the other 
side, network protocol specifications need to evolve frequently, and if 
they evolve developers ought to have a simple mean to access the latest 
version of protocol XXX. There is a big tension there, because if the 
protocol is known as RFC NNNN, then it cannot change. If it is known as 
protocol XXX it can change but then the RFC number becomes irrelevant. 
Arguably we have a tension between keeping the series relevant and 
maintaining a core principle.

Resolving such tensions is exactly what the RSWG should do. I don't 
think that we should try to preempt the debate by making statements 
about heritage. That leads me to agree with Eric and Elliot.

-- Christian Huitema


From nobody Wed Oct 27 19:13:57 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4C53A17B9; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0OKu6RJOGlI; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A01853A17B7; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id r28so4933156pga.0; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kQu166MjNTS1T0yPaHRNRlyT0LH28JEOvrdky1ljLgE=; b=pskVOLA2m4OA/Pod1z3iQ/2vD8jwE12C+v1cI7Pis6M9iaN95cHn7iVQyvLnYJ/497 ov+600n856JfXhfFbsWXSBRUkjHfwM47N0yaH+r6ucXhOld5RLf83PA0cVi2xNKpF7FD WqwUmL7HsX1EmVCgRdDvGb3+Sfbt6NMo0LRLagonxMrv6vL4u0sex8uLnid6ZtRye9oU Ucpp2bEA1cK6y0xoDFYVO4W3/ngh4LSobE9wF7A9MCVbVe82nTPdeCMEcU0NaPXZQQbm 72I1viI6SyHSrDD+XMe9SNNxRKPJUeOEaN5GDfc330Tzb8CwGMh4KRUSgGqI92QMcmJU 1Mhg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kQu166MjNTS1T0yPaHRNRlyT0LH28JEOvrdky1ljLgE=; b=qe2TtM0lqr66px/kSGaB5W8zYuzIBW0yq/Z8Pn/9XHOr7Z7YnrZ45P09WAcD3QnVPI v5TKCbM9yxBj9DjmJp50SWecAaFwRq4Ngr2Q3dtThMolD5zfhGCJ+4yUdiuW3WaIuMEf +BquhrwCdyaKM9yg8ZyhLGsednpSsxg2Elouxmrmy0kRtvuUO8uXqTvd/b5EfZ0SdH7Y wyAS+F4ZtRylyrJYlceCE7Dng6SKtG0R2YCrG6oplctL8M+7aizOWOxLTUY64gCXJ5hs 4nMQoeuD/NeJ5MwYzIQL3u3X7azzcpbEw9EEvmSW4YFiin9geJ3CGKhe5QlaZ2gDj6tz C27Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hpjej7H63HTwNEsZglNUyCCphiaxXSx4LkNFD1lytKNI1IVgs MzbLgT7vMYgpF6y0C+sI3m0=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYUmpyaDf0imn5pQUAhBgZtWWeiwsJrB3672mP7ak3E9AYGmUhRAVABJVmauCECND5oC/atw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:134e:b0:47c:2e54:a0cb with SMTP id k14-20020a056a00134e00b0047c2e54a0cbmr1406071pfu.54.1635387231252;  Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h1sm1229764pfi.168.2021.10.27.19.13.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Christian Huitema , Jay Daley , Eric Rescorla 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Stephen Farrell , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Eliot Lear 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>  <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org> <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <5bb99259-1834-deae-c300-dc929489d161@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:13:45 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 02:13:56 -0000

On 28-Oct-21 12:58, Christian Huitema wrote:
> On 10/27/2021 3:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
>=20
>> It seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of t=
he RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is impossible t=
o pin down as a general statement and is best addressed during a discussi=
on on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the text is very carefully=20
worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is necessary to avoid stagnatio=
n) then it would be such a blunt instrument that I would expect it to be =
regularly invoked inappropriately and to create friction because those in=
voking it would think they have policy on their side.
>=20
>=20
> I don't think of that in terms of heritage so much as principles. I
> think we have broad agreement about most principles, such as making
> access to the discussion open and free. We also mostly have broad
> agreement on preserving continuity of the look and feel of the series,
> even if after tortuous debate we finally got=C2=A0 the format to evolve=20
and
> allow such things as international characters or vector graphics. The
> only principle that I see regularly contested is the idea that once
> published, RFC cannot be changed.
>=20
> I hear the arguments on both sides. On one side, RFC are archived
> documents, and we don't get to rewrite the past ever, so yes, once a
> document is stamped with a number, it is cast in stone. On the other
> side, network protocol specifications need to evolve frequently, and if=

> they evolve developers ought to have a simple mean to access the latest=

> version of protocol XXX. There is a big tension there, because if the
> protocol is known as RFC NNNN, then it cannot change. If it is known as=

> protocol XXX it can change but then the RFC number becomes irrelevant.
> Arguably we have a tension between keeping the series relevant and
> maintaining a core principle.
>=20
> Resolving such tensions is exactly what the RSWG should do. I don't
> think that we should try to preempt the debate by making statements
> about heritage. That leads me to agree with Eric and Elliot.

We should probably wait until we see what Mike St J proposes,
but I feel that "heritage" as such is a bad choice of word, whereas
respecting long-established principles, and not fixing what isn't
broken, are reasonable guidelines.

     Brian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 00:17:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A552D3A0CD6 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 00:17:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.42
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6BotMVZ3ipD for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 00:16:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EBBF3A0CE3 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 00:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19S7GqVk1759865 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:16:53 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635405413; bh=IGlWkmH/Gnv7uWeklPi58aJugdkgqodl6nJpT3q+V48=; h=Date:To:References:From:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=MVoTm3Is8s+HibkhaDBR0nR5htJHtgfPDERaMLEVlCp7gr5tAfLTri2CYL1h2Klk+ i0hDNpS1O9+nHoVQya23sF9uCTskxXpxanEbUcI3LeDHXqaoxc7SHYy2/Yz+gnJvlW H5rm8yFvtf4xRheHqbNMLEpWbQfEp3kXCxd15gzI=
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:16:47 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Michael StJohns 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>  
From: Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , EKR 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------X4HjmfnHnTBcjkIU6zPIOWLV"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 07:17:03 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------X4HjmfnHnTBcjkIU6zPIOWLV
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------e7OJ0bKJNLJkYKQVMOTqINy6";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Michael StJohns 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , EKR 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 
 <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>
 <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>
 
 
In-Reply-To: 

--------------e7OJ0bKJNLJkYKQVMOTqINy6
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------cxOnaI0UNq17SYhk0XF3Uvbu"

--------------cxOnaI0UNq17SYhk0XF3Uvbu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------cxOnaI0UNq17SYhk0XF3Uvbu
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------cxOnaI0UNq17SYhk0XF3Uvbu--


--------------e7OJ0bKJNLJkYKQVMOTqINy6--

--------------X4HjmfnHnTBcjkIU6zPIOWLV
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF6Tl8FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOn
XwgAxJ2dwF/1sMlaEuMYZhvU1bEqkAAtGlLPxQ12kiQEfhGqTz/NJFBsjHWtsYeg8+6ccZVODZM+
Da3D6y+z823ac0pm2zHiXXH6jDZeoQLdb5hE05pCoCpXDgqpqpsWS2JBpE9JNXH4rXUJl4xct1V9
wA6Y6eTcSJyPUxqsqm8B1bJH3tHVFcPXrOj7JfoP3UaHoiIJMrAimC9ieSjnjtFHRVJurnwdOesO
o/VFTVc/aHZ5B3n2wccFMrX5BIRZjQNf2RfoQYTgrIQ+cOXtR7Kq7CfgpdZ+qDb3jT2DUs2F7P/T
FKXiYkDiYmqVdNed3D6JypGhC7NlLNWk3pvPCsgmIQ==
=+AF2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------X4HjmfnHnTBcjkIU6zPIOWLV--


From nobody Thu Oct 28 01:33:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D756A3A0809 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 01:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.23
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7ZpZSALhjEa for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 01:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2093.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E62F3A07F7 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 01:33:13 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=juokUuArbzNM8Wk4lmh10ZhI6cl+BKTtvbDqdqX/hHcq/8a2B6j/51T59iiojA3dGR07BSR8FIt6TDv7JbYjhzC7USGbm0f8Ir0lnI1YBbRwuRhCxJvV8vtl7mKJTDuTvb7puAzt03ziE3iVODbRiHhDiG/esGNc2JeZpc95RJTEqeWxZ2H+4zV7y8Tgw+S1gYf6bscGkebElX4s+dpoM93QiBAApi17zOUCeIUH75ulLHIJzxpG+tFoYlHDAfgGsntls03ODq20MDqKvTDWtFPE2ff6rgjm9mgum6NB0fsJF0K8PtZceNYezd3OSRcnK/2f1uybCN2JgDlXPMfVvg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=BTf1wrlwobxel7o8HdSd6rz9pq5+8AEbdz5cmMzfMxU=; b=Fg8bvWF33kOKP1POPetLa2wH4iN9JHmv/jlN1raWc6gUE3BgAFkoB29H8A3A0+a/smdBEYACd9Tal8UOZZPOUke3sAu2/JeTtOjl+S0XNAu5bvf3qohHu7v4NyD2r0dA8sKVyMCR/8RK5zJsoH9TaWDNxGREGwLx7bqC6BwXq5x3n7BbnRhOKqCA4bEeUgn8bysgztMML2BCf3NV906LarFR0nLiXx4h6Yg33ufFGBIKKXwQw87yjcxWjoL4Qj0U4+kjeyG19R8avZHxj47fAUmLx3L8HkvmrEHPrU6jtXn+lTag0FwYNZUM4mCU2qrcAdER4InjwhDWzqyQgmdc7Q==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=btconnect.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=btconnect.com; dkim=pass header.d=btconnect.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-btconnect-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BTf1wrlwobxel7o8HdSd6rz9pq5+8AEbdz5cmMzfMxU=; b=D4vEPVVy5y09idSnEyrJemcmudf8dWiSS5PJwYGxb+bmllcQfStYbqQXbcMQ+1eN2cKkWAsIIl61HJ7xht6gybLzWKo5mK3uXI8gUneso3mQsVadTLHaHapjt3WXHxupqw8tT3Y96xnHOnAJAjgQdd4kqb933AD/9fetC2RPXRg=
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com;
Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) by VI1PR07MB5967.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:b9::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.11; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 08:33:10 +0000
Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::da:1b00:ebb3:ffd9]) by VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::da:1b00:ebb3:ffd9%2]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.014; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 08:33:10 +0000
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
From: tom petch 
Message-ID: <617A6043.1060308@btconnect.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:33:07 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0
In-Reply-To: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P123CA0011.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a6::23) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.65] (109.145.246.78) by LO2P123CA0011.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a6::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.20.4649.15 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 08:33:09 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9148b21c-c94e-43a2-6878-08d999ed92d3
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR07MB5967:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(366004)(5660300002)(966005)(186003)(956004)(508600001)(66476007)(2616005)(86362001)(33656002)(6486002)(66556008)(36756003)(26005)(38100700002)(8936002)(66946007)(316002)(52116002)(83380400001)(53546011)(2906002)(6916009)(82960400001)(38350700002)(8676002)(87266011)(16576012); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?VkcwWnJFaXkzK2N6Sm5uNWo3azF3aUJqc2wxTC92SkNJOG9GbUZGUWtaQ09K?= =?utf-8?B?SGZyZUo2b05jNmNQQVNPMU50RVFmNVY2RURFc0NMbytKeXlsZ0RtNXhnQmpU?= =?utf-8?B?OFRpRVZ6N1NwVmlVSVQ1TDh4VGpQZFE0NWRDajF4b1E1Sk5td3AxSTk4TlZ3?= =?utf-8?B?SjIwaGR4ZGZnZnRINjJlSmduN3pkdzN1TW1rdERZMDhLNHprU2w0SnFTRXJL?= =?utf-8?B?bDEzMWJpNGFkRjhuS3pUVE9GaTlDNzUrWDZtczVxa3BGbkpZK0FvYTJqMDFj?= =?utf-8?B?NHBTS1pJYkJnRE16RkpjbU5uUjNqdXhFRkIwdEJtVDc2bzJrUWsvSHBrNDVS?= =?utf-8?B?cnVyOStkd0hXRnpIcnYxQi8yMThBdmJYdWVrRU1RYU1pV2ZGd3J6U0JSR0p4?= =?utf-8?B?WC9KTTNRLzRLYXFHcXhIbGlxeUcyVUtkSkdsSnFjNVZPUFB3NjJVZWN0a1Zx?= =?utf-8?B?bVdQYjc5UWtOZlBteit3ZFpWRWVFYldZRzNHWWdaSWd0eFkvRUFtTjVlWGt0?= =?utf-8?B?T2sxNERZNkN1anpKUGJGV3BiNHBxd1FRdXhLS213RC9lWHFyZDZyczEwV3g5?= =?utf-8?B?YmpDWUtmRXFMRmR1ZkRCcjVZUFpvWnFvSDRDbUtGbERhd1FWL1ArcEtqNXRS?= =?utf-8?B?SSsxTzBIekpaMWhOV3EwRDJVOVlRZTBaa3IwZnF6d3NBRmgrZndrUW9la1RV?= =?utf-8?B?WjMyalNrSVR4WXpweEMrck9HNlFQcDZxRmV2T1M3TCtacHpNSU1hczhPMUU2?= =?utf-8?B?SFdwaVRnUzFrdTZvMEdkekt4TmVHRTdtV0xqNFlZTUI2blZKVkduby9xUnhY?= =?utf-8?B?ZFZTc01SeWo4aXY3SFFibkhKaktzOFloRkJEUW85a3kyS1lUTS9pMW9tc3lR?= =?utf-8?B?bnBVem9rNXlleUZMQWs3SytyM09jR3hVR2NGSlNZdUNWWmZkeUhMTEJFOTVt?= =?utf-8?B?WkhvenFVUkJ0c0FEdzE4STM5bWVxa2hLY2Z4Unp5WlJ4T244OFFtNkRpVys0?= =?utf-8?B?cm1kMjRscmptYnd6Y21VVVBmMlZmM0RUNFlhYzNaVTI1R0QreUdXSERUTkY2?= =?utf-8?B?alVhSU0vdHg2VEJNQ1plYkl1NnVqK2dNTGdVL0liSzFrSkgrellkOGJTd1RX?= =?utf-8?B?Z1F6VWFicXdmYjdrQXRkNUtyTG0rMVloUzBSL3VodDNqd3VVSVZXWlRZNjJL?= =?utf-8?B?d2g3V2xTa3dRUTJVVVJWd2FqUXVJazBzTHZTMzdSMmpPd0xGTzBET3pZSzM1?= =?utf-8?B?N05tSkdSUk5UR1NoTkx5T3N0ZjI5UnRqd1JqS0U5ZXJNWU95ZWwyMkNNcmxX?= =?utf-8?B?ZkxmV3BsVE1ydENDSWNjM1dick1MT0xPaDhvSG5mVGh1WVczcTc4KzN6SkRt?= =?utf-8?B?cGd4anNRaWsvUXpmVFZodjFUZm1Sa2ZndmdTWnVlYTZWbERYTlF6Y25ic0xj?= =?utf-8?B?MXBIVHh4THpzOUhKeS80b3VwQmFscEtkQWd5aERyT3ozRFFMVXk2UUo4Z293?= =?utf-8?B?SzVOQnBQVkovbjY4OG5sZGVyOGljbnAvZ1FpSXltR09WcCthM3RzZDdhQXQw?= =?utf-8?B?bVpUYlZ2V0tQTUdxUWMwdURzQ3VjUkRFMWlTRjZZdlpOQVh3ZlR6ZFBta1lw?= =?utf-8?B?N1dqbVVRbGNTWlg2QXlqckNpbHVDRHNaelkrbWZQWWV6VFZ0M3FXMmd4Njcz?= =?utf-8?B?ejh5NVBxMSs4ZTdQNFgyUHVIWjg0TUZRNFhSbXJSUXI4SzdFV1lIRXRhcUJ5?= =?utf-8?B?bGFsQ3RncUhQbko3aktMb010SkYza1VmOFhJZGlqVk5wdjZUb2xBNzUxYjJp?= =?utf-8?B?dEhaZXpZalZ4M29RNmRBeXZOUjRocUJQNUtNRnVyUUY5QWJMTkNwQWFOL3lQ?= =?utf-8?B?bXJZWFo1VHVOUm8rb2l1NG9tQmZ4bUw4ay9uTkk5aDZjK2hXRSt1ekpxZVZW?= =?utf-8?B?aDBXZW1FWEY5OTJWN0hqaFBUZUQyNndxbHdtTkdBTUVKSG9hQ1hUVWlEWmtB?= =?utf-8?B?OC9VOWZjS2h6amo0QjkyK1FiNyswb0NvMkNtZzNLdjRpSGE3QTlyRjhnR0x3?= =?utf-8?B?Qnd0V3VzdTVZUlFPbDJqazl4OG5XRXRRRU10aTc4eHgrRFU1YnJtK3M0bmVy?= =?utf-8?B?MmI5azFPOXkvZDllL0J2VDQwcTgvQW5ibURZMVNxb2tRWXdJUWQ0VXVhVUJT?= =?utf-8?Q?B3QQHdLbNPvpxabP90XGq/8=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9148b21c-c94e-43a2-6878-08d999ed92d3
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2021 08:33:10.1095 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: yXwqFyX1bA7u+y7QJYi2axG0LzyID1msmC7gdJcKdLfGAJIYBrPun6Lo8d6YbJzNxtWNpRmdKTit7edjqUcA8g==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB5967
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Upcoming Community Consultations on Next Generation RFC Model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 08:33:20 -0000

On 27/10/2021 13:12, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial Future
> Development Program, a program opened to the entire community, with an
> eye toward reviewing the RFC Editor model found in
> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05[1]. We are now coming to the conclusion
> of our work, and the IAB will soon begin its formal consideration, which
> is governed by RFC 4845[2]. Part of that process includes solicitation
> of community input.
>
> The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model and a
> small change to the charter of the IAB. You can find this evolution in
> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05 as well as two companion drafts[3,4,5].
> This draft brings together many different points of view, as you can see
> from the mailing list archive[6].
>
> Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to know:
>
> 1.
>
>     The community oversees the evolution of the series by means of an
>     open working group. Proposed changes that reach rough consensus will
>     be reviewed by an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) that consists of
>     the RSCE and people representing the various streams.
>
> 2.
>
>     The RFC Editor role is changing to that of a consulting editor (RFC
>     Series Consulting Editor or RSCE). In this model, an expert will
>     provide guidance to the community, the streams, and to the RPC to
>     evolve the series.
>
> 3.
>
>     The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC series. The
>     community and the streams will do that. The IAB will continue to be
>     in the appeal path if there are disputes.
>
> There are a lot of things that won't change. The RPC would continue to
> handle day-to-day functions of the RFC Editor function, and authors
> should not see any immediate change in terms of how RFCs are published.
> They continue to be managed through the LLC. We will continue to benefit
> from the expertise of a professional expert, now the RSCE.
>
> Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the drafts.
>
> This is what will soon be put forth for your comments. In the meantime,
> even though the formal comment period is not yet open, we invite you to
> review the model now and bring whatever questions you might have to the
> program when we meet on Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the
> IETF meeting. Of course you can also join the mailing list[7] and
> contribute your questions and comments there.
>
> On behalf of the program,
>
> Brian and Eliot

Eliot

Who is Brian?

Tom Petch


>
> [1]
> https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-program/
>
> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4845.html
> [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05
> [4]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03
> [5]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01
> [6] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfced-future/
> [7] https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>


From nobody Thu Oct 28 05:01:23 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B7B3A0AA8 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:01:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RuYnhRpyah6y for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B32443A0AA5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id h20so6522805ila.4 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=m3mfIcID/qSOC/bwZXfyNxxp5udzzyy2hHV5yVU7C9s=; b=v0z3QaFxC64jFQOmx2SERO94YRqVfnnLxrKuvm/ut9xGiq/Uzq37VYza+MIymS/cmm 88OdD2DS3MnosuM3tQ9fhlpA78jqsRw7+QEiXBvRMOFVMU8OszKlPcKoYHGO8DoxfuWf J3Y1qj2d+0L8R1igbvWnJdKXII6mC30EMqwZ/xLU93zpzNReRpYMEo8WZczTRx9/uYL9 teiol5OrfRSJEPRlvJjOoQbisvvU7BsLzN8KWFTInr7Rb3NHaX7LI0wEgX49+QS8BSDT 5P2W006yPS8zZ3nj8e3VuDV8RdEVQIuuVgPbwQgeUdO9FqWEfI1xpEAmOEx3+qwJWU9r BxlQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m3mfIcID/qSOC/bwZXfyNxxp5udzzyy2hHV5yVU7C9s=; b=LqEpnQyA2e9SrfnkJAojKUjBoSiQjoSCtWS+WiUtjqsxmrLFWWDUd+sM0p6c8TK00j VUIdIszIA+c2pJhFJkA1SLvFgd2wBdMWhwuyEIiAY/Llu6j6xLXIRIC/ZulQpYa/Oev+ xo01oUgwME4m4mm3CoRJEXwbJyxq6916oCyiKZh3uzL6mfw20AvP9nc0Lc0qpGwcXkaP YUaeGHfST3XqKU4tkRzgaMxERc4617B2dtMRYiTDMm7K8tV6En42Xjw5HFiffrNVs7OV 7hSot6k6CJ+dHTzrCygRjhG/RSdGYB4JGa9y/CmZKO98u+noi4YhLvcZue3bJiTtHpOF NIhQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5331OHkFge5kTmtK8qiaeoRzXPFajlO5qfXgOcOR0RQq3RAYrLIs 2CYXR1uofHD9QR9UC9PKD44rbi1897v2q4F8Uz3pew==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz226gkoyf87o/aaSJ43RtQtPgjPKaviLfN7FNuMWYJ0udbaKqxlXYEmnbjOsVMbZCPpHmQc9UcznHLlI+L7ZQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1b8a:: with SMTP id h10mr2840883ili.219.1635422472644;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>   
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:00:36 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a456105cf687776"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 12:01:21 -0000

--0000000000008a456105cf687776
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 12:16 AM Eliot Lear  wrote:

> Mike, everyone,
>
> First, a point of clarification.  I don't have a strong position.  I may
> not have couched my words properly, but my only bias really is to fix
> the issues we can now, and not attempt to fix the issues we can't.
>
> Christian has put things rather concretely by suggesting that
> fundamental parameters of the serious like whether RFCs are immutable
> might be changed.  There may be other aspects.  But I don't think we get
> through this without either dropping the word heritage or significantly
> elaborating it.  I think it may not be necessary to use the word.  See
> below.
>
> Furthermore, there are enough concerns around this matter, that I don't
> see how we don't expose the tension at all.  But there is a difference
> between exposing that tension and trying to govern it. I don't think we
> do any harm to Eric's concerns if we do the former (EKR, you can and
> should correct me if you strongly disagree, but see below), and I have
> very little confidence that we will find any consensus on the latter.
>
> With that in mind, we already have the following in Section 3.2.1:
>
> >    Because policy issues can be difficult and contentious, RSWG
> >    participants and RSAB members are strongly encouraged to work
> >    together in a spirit of good faith and mutual understanding to
> >    achieve rough consensus (see [RFC7282]).  In particular, RSWG members
> >    are encouraged to take RSAB concerns seriously, and RSAB members are
> >    encouraged to clearly express their concerns early in the process and
> >    to be responsive to the community.  All parties are encouraged to
> >    respect the value of each stream and the long-term health and
> >    viability of the RFC Series.
>
> Perhaps it is this last sentence that we might amend:
>
> >  All parties are encouraged to, respect the value of each stream and
> > the long-term health and
> >  viability of the RFC Series, and to give consideration for both the
> > factors that have led to the series'  wide acceptance, and those that
> > require it to evolve to see to its continued success.
>

I would be fine with this text.

-Ekr

--0000000000008a456105cf687776
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 12:16 AM Elio=
t Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
<=
/div>
Mike, everyone,



First, a point of clarification.=C2=A0 I don't have a strong position.=
=C2=A0 I may 

not have couched my words properly, but my only bias really is to fix 

the issues we can now, and not attempt to fix the issues we can't.



Christian has put things rather concretely by suggesting that 

fundamental parameters of the serious like whether RFCs are immutable 

might be changed.=C2=A0 There may be other aspects.=C2=A0 But I don't t=
hink we get 

through this without either dropping the word heritage or significantly 
elaborating it.=C2=A0 I think it may not be necessary to use the word.=C2=
=A0 See 

below.



Furthermore, there are enough concerns around this matter, that I don't=
 

see how we don't expose the tension at all.=C2=A0 But there is a differ=
ence 

between exposing that tension and trying to govern it. I don't think we=
 

do any harm to Eric's concerns if we do the former (EKR, you can and 
should correct me if you strongly disagree, but see below), and I have 

very little confidence that we will find any consensus on the latter.



With that in mind, we already have the following in Section 3.2.1:



> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Because policy issues can be difficult and contentious, R=
SWG

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 participants and RSAB members are strongly encouraged to =
work

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 together in a spirit of good faith and mutual understandi=
ng to

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 achieve rough consensus (see [RFC7282]).=C2=A0 In particu=
lar, RSWG members

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 are encouraged to take RSAB concerns seriously, and RSAB =
members are

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 encouraged to clearly express their concerns early in the=
 process and

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 to be responsive to the community.=C2=A0 All parties are =
encouraged to

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 respect the value of each stream and the long-term health=
 and

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 viability of the RFC Series.



Perhaps it is this last sentence that we might amend:



> =C2=A0All parties are encouraged to, respect the value of each stream =
and 

> the long-term health and

> =C2=A0viability of the RFC Series, and to give consideration for both =
the 

> factors that have led to the series'=C2=A0 wide acceptance, and th=
ose that 

> require it to evolve to see to its continued success.
=


I would be fine with this t=
ext.

-=
Ekr



--0000000000008a456105cf687776--


From nobody Thu Oct 28 05:57:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641533A0EBA for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:57:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.887
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MYACAqqVEyMW for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2B93A0EB5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id q127so6889919iod.12 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=RR1XuaNIqBuHSV6/4LGA7vRolhOtujgx5k8S9qe6H0E=; b=Pq7720fxotgGy0tOTUpm1eaOUAdTIoG9PdGT0z0HVnTKb+o6qFnzA8TH1U6FUE2tRT AFUcTT9ggCIWKHrInG9Y8hCoJf6kmO4baqPgwDfVUhq1aBfQuulvMkJdMeQLpoGbTIgG rCQ40xYeH2LmbRpnLYm5WZgaCgIZYZ1210c7iNYQC6TWkdmVLezmWT5vFatn+ED1IO+n K5JE8k78kc01meEARBo+eqFxqachpQgbFnAvTZGRzUFvJMvhV/mNhj19Y9Qzc+uYqAR2 ot42sgx6+EZiCsvfB3OHxzbq9qX/tlFlyFdBaze08ljUh+QxkDcgCuS1OPytz71fuUkC PaZA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=RR1XuaNIqBuHSV6/4LGA7vRolhOtujgx5k8S9qe6H0E=; b=XLVwgAZV5cdzyhVajzdpdPVObGyJEtRvBVSZIDuB22vSkweqsniuVftQvVH6Hn+Erm AHOyZw8B0Xc50NPICAtmoH0o2EgCa7CuawIEEKY0D3GKDubrv8R4+lZO0Z2kySLNjUqH EK1A85vW2zxQyzLMP+/pKAW/TnFTSwzjn+5SOZUXiW6RjWVenUtnsamyKgW87I4K4QYK U9rN5vo2DKkTr3P2r4oJSrGdvP02PS+hGvEI0j1Ga+5K5Psi4DbKQrCjM5M3hKBN5hMi itplQ/eIeIEyjyoPTECLSC1zZJvNIG3iMwHaRYSmc+uPyzZNhfSl9sIldVWg383i2yb6 +C0A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MJj23FADuk94fN/gqSJcvWIrRQ7cWrK3ZcNjNL2NQ5Zgn6yTr kDGF5cfnXfHGssPph8vb1OFSbw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDHm0u6etbiY4qCeXmupTog5z9f5VNh6GZ7SEDURhK7HYv6ETQUROF5ikYsyrn6WPdKh1xxQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8bd0:: with SMTP id n199mr2928773iod.15.1635425837022;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:57:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple ([24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q5sm1723838ilu.64.2021.10.28.05.57.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Rosen 
Message-Id: <5F8BC4F6-E290-45E7-82C6-CCF87C15DE13@brianrosen.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AEF02954-0D06-4C49-9D07-7E82FEE890F3"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 08:57:13 -0400
In-Reply-To: <617A6043.1060308@btconnect.com>
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
To: tom petch 
References: <0e0db0df-6e23-ed9a-2c6e-1d7dc57fac1b@lear.ch> <617A6043.1060308@btconnect.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Upcoming Community Consultations on Next Generation RFC Model
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 12:57:25 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_AEF02954-0D06-4C49-9D07-7E82FEE890F3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

That would be me, Brian Rosen, co-chair with Eliot of the work group =
that produced this work.

Not to be confused with Brian Carpenter, who contributed significantly =
to the effort.

Brian

> On Oct 28, 2021, at 4:33 AM, tom petch  wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 27/10/2021 13:12, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Dear colleagues,
>>=20
>> In March of 2020 the IAB kicked off the RFC Series Editorial Future
>> Development Program, a program opened to the entire community, with =
an
>> eye toward reviewing the RFC Editor model found in
>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05[1]. We are now coming to the =
conclusion
>> of our work, and the IAB will soon begin its formal consideration, =
which
>> is governed by RFC 4845[2]. Part of that process includes =
solicitation
>> of community input.
>>=20
>> The program has developed an evolution of the RFC Editor Model and a
>> small change to the charter of the IAB. You can find this evolution =
in
>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05 as well as two companion =
drafts[3,4,5].
>> This draft brings together many different points of view, as you can =
see
>> from the mailing list archive[6].
>>=20
>> Here are some of the proposed changes that you may wish to know:
>>=20
>> 1.
>>=20
>>    The community oversees the evolution of the series by means of an
>>    open working group. Proposed changes that reach rough consensus =
will
>>    be reviewed by an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) that consists =
of
>>    the RSCE and people representing the various streams.
>>=20
>> 2.
>>=20
>>    The RFC Editor role is changing to that of a consulting editor =
(RFC
>>    Series Consulting Editor or RSCE). In this model, an expert will
>>    provide guidance to the community, the streams, and to the RPC to
>>    evolve the series.
>>=20
>> 3.
>>=20
>>    The IAB will no longer manage or oversee the RFC series. The
>>    community and the streams will do that. The IAB will continue to =
be
>>    in the appeal path if there are disputes.
>>=20
>> There are a lot of things that won't change. The RPC would continue =
to
>> handle day-to-day functions of the RFC Editor function, and authors
>> should not see any immediate change in terms of how RFCs are =
published.
>> They continue to be managed through the LLC. We will continue to =
benefit
>> from the expertise of a professional expert, now the RSCE.
>>=20
>> Of course, there's a lot more detail that is specified in the drafts.
>>=20
>> This is what will soon be put forth for your comments. In the =
meantime,
>> even though the formal comment period is not yet open, we invite you =
to
>> review the model now and bring whatever questions you might have to =
the
>> program when we meet on Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the
>> IETF meeting. Of course you can also join the mailing list[7] and
>> contribute your questions and comments there.
>>=20
>> On behalf of the program,
>>=20
>> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> Who is Brian?
>=20
> Tom Petch
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> [1]
>> =
https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-prog=
ram/
>>=20
>> [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4845.html
>> [3] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05
>> [4]
>> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03=

>> [5]
>> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01
>> [6] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfced-future/
>> [7] https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org 
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =


--Apple-Mail=_AEF02954-0D06-4C49-9D07-7E82FEE890F3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

That =
would be me, Brian Rosen, co-chair with Eliot of the work group that =
produced this work.

Not to be confused with Brian Carpenter, who contributed =
significantly to the effort.

Brian

On Oct =
28, 2021, at 4:33 AM, tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> wrote:


On 27/10/2021 13:12, Eliot Lear wrote:
Dear =
colleagues,

In March of 2020 the IAB kicked =
off the RFC Series Editorial Future
Development Program, a =
program opened to the entire community, with an
eye toward =
reviewing the RFC Editor model found in
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05[1]. We are now coming to the =
conclusion
of our work, and the IAB will soon begin its =
formal consideration, which
is governed by RFC 4845[2]. =
Part of that process includes solicitation
of community =
input.

The program has developed an =
evolution of the RFC Editor Model and a
small change to =
the charter of the IAB. You can find this evolution in
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05 as well as two companion =
drafts[3,4,5].
This draft brings together many different =
points of view, as you can see
from the mailing list =
archive[6].

Here are some of the proposed =
changes that you may wish to know:

1.

   The community oversees the =
evolution of the series by means of an
   open working group. Proposed changes that =
reach rough consensus will
   be reviewed =
by an RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB) that consists of
   the RSCE and people representing the =
various streams.

2.

   The RFC Editor role is changing to that of =
a consulting editor (RFC
   Series =
Consulting Editor or RSCE). In this model, an expert will
   provide guidance to the community, the =
streams, and to the RPC to
   evolve the =
series.

3.

   The IAB will no longer manage or oversee =
the RFC series. The
   community and the =
streams will do that. The IAB will continue to be
   in the appeal path if there are =
disputes.

There are a lot of things that =
won't change. The RPC would continue to
handle day-to-day =
functions of the RFC Editor function, and authors
should =
not see any immediate change in terms of how RFCs are published.
They continue to be managed through the LLC. We will continue =
to benefit
from the expertise of a professional expert, =
now the RSCE.

Of course, there's a lot more =
detail that is specified in the drafts.

This =
is what will soon be put forth for your comments. In the meantime,
even though the formal comment period is not yet open, we =
invite you to
review the model now and bring whatever =
questions you might have to the
program when we meet on =
Wednesday, November 10th, at 14.30 GMT at the
IETF =
meeting. Of course you can also join the mailing list[7] and
contribute your questions and comments there.
On behalf of the program,

Brian =
and Eliot

Eliot

Who is Brian?

Tom Petch



[1]
https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-devel=
opment-program/

[2] =
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4845.html
[3] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05
[4]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab=
-charter-03
[5]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-updat=
e-2026-01
[6] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfced-future/
[7] =
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


-- Rfced-future mailing =
list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

=

--Apple-Mail=_AEF02954-0D06-4C49-9D07-7E82FEE890F3--


From nobody Thu Oct 28 07:32:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5213A0762 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 07:32:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6cAEYsTY8lZ for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 07:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87FBA3A05D0 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 07:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19SDQgAW013972;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:32:21 +0100
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=+JJG6TYSSm+KSqKDJxfaPr6VoW6/Q2BU0ChCmNglbXc=; b=L/+43H6gzWEd1TyrNmX5ebXbM+aWn40z7TVmMh3dzbTm4SWdEZaJ06ZqMnDhUUglMmGv 8tziry1FqSV7jjVtYhUB8ZAl0Yd012IAJ0jiA3v/yanzLmZzlyiPRIOahGRE4urHotQz 8yQntyU8a3OvpnUrfGLTADzWh7UX21jcOHdAEnPNK/wlsLYVfZ3enSBPiqbG6psjLyt0 kaacng5A3KOMCWtogDZS+39Cv8jwA9xNJG7pKq8OVsAvFRvHi7u0cPQ0EkQhivhBhTo+ 3pDfWkwbGqj2TmuVDyPiS1mq0gOSXK9ZZzVEw8G5M7YeNfhT8FGz+2L7LKAssHHiXcNU 7A== 
Received: from prod-mail-ppoint6 (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [184.51.33.61] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3bynadke04-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:32:20 +0100
Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19SEJ4Fj014116; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:32:20 -0400
Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3bx4x1538f-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:32:20 -0400
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:31:08 -0400
Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:31:08 -0400
From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Brian E Carpenter , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
Thread-Index: AQHXxxzBP4JN1YD8q0Cp9AVdGKmBFavlohwAgAABFwCAAAQ7AIAApJUAgAADRQCAAAZggIAACqOAgAAC4gCAAAKLAIAAAZiAgAANSQCAAg4QgA==
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:31:07 +0000
Message-ID: <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>  
In-Reply-To: 
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.54.21101001
x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <58CFFB067740CC458D631C78B41765BE@akamai.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-10-28_01:2021-10-26, 2021-10-28 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2110280080
X-Proofpoint-GUID: HOJ6SkSRwNeiV7DSjEcyHo2ooMP5ZiIE
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: HOJ6SkSRwNeiV7DSjEcyHo2ooMP5ZiIE
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-10-28_01,2021-10-26_01,2020-04-07_01
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2110280080
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:32:32 -0000
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=


From nobody Thu Oct 28 09:36:59 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867413A0F0A for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:36:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.85
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=NQoFz/UR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Dci3H++T
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CE29zNPdph1o for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 485FA3A0F16 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 45621 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2021 16:36:49 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=b232.617ad1a1.k2110; bh=PnZiDX1lIBAM+zBNwEMjsQ+20/VednfJ06Qty7K9KDY=; b=NQoFz/URWQH32l/MxLjnLTFJA3ZyEKjM9hWJEMOz1C55BkkCDDRZNHAzmO43G7psQOk9bHBWbh6kqEld7vH6O+XaAWNabEzshdtqNTlgbW5bWFde/AoyjouArvmEvN9v/8KH2GK6g4A4o4xG57ekWmGol0iVwl5/gffsxozCP2ZDCwe+Z4wpP90Os20DGbSCoZ1eOes3QiDbWgLGWr6NBzAdASy22mZwYU3Fvlup88vXr9EGnhRZmLKP+ugNEBQALg7oZtiI5H5rqrWtYq19/of5JRV4dK0kTazkzNCVlGHy/wjgNEpacFhL8yP9Io+wqbOHMtK8K3qutI2OrotQow==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=b232.617ad1a1.k2110; bh=PnZiDX1lIBAM+zBNwEMjsQ+20/VednfJ06Qty7K9KDY=; b=Dci3H++T7cVPYsCx4rNa/PCtdBzokEWA4jxaEUnbfVEHjVao3cBpGkbhVoH9LittMKrqGR+MPuFHJazAuHAKJy8oLuILKJ1D7yxvU/RcLlZ92sSQNeqxd3/QAI0JUGXNT89A1RdPNJr1TFuAvnTsSjVJEig87Z6FqJqItQttaTQKivWO8PVsDld8L9yHZtojXbyP8QwXUMjH+DVbVmXJp2XKZv6s2BSZoakTKryugXGm7xX4MBYCHMNjQjsjq+wGJXQ/qgertidvVnhmyceR/YRlbbWPDGRZeHCS1hCP32rX5FOR2ifaqMpzkA9vrl6m9v/YtuHDKdAeOcOAuw0/EA==
Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 28 Oct 2021 16:36:49 -0000
Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 19F772F30CCF; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 12:36:48 -0400 (EDT)
Date: 28 Oct 2021 12:36:48 -0400
Message-Id: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy>
From: "John Levine" 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Organization: Taughannock Networks
X-Headerized: yes
Cleverness: minimal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:36:58 -0000

Eliot asked if I had comments on the proposal, wearing my interim RFC series editor hat.

While I think it is a good idea that we finally give the RPC more
autonomy, I also think it is a recipe for paralysis because no
individual is empowered to do anything.

There are lots of small issues related to RFC publishing that need to
be dealt with, and I cannot tell who would do that. As a concrete
example, we have a longstanding issue that Google Scholar does not
index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various coding and
indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get them
fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it
breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be,
to make the changes to fix it? Running this through the RSWG and RSAB
with a formal proposal first for who gets to talk to them, and then
to make whatever the changes are (which are likely small and obvious)
would be a waste of everyone's time.

While I understand the desire to make everything as transparent as
possible, if every tiny unit of work is loaded with five units of proposing
and debating and approval, not a lot of work is going to get done.

R's,
John


From nobody Thu Oct 28 11:50:29 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF7D3A08F3 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:50:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vWZG1u5rtn7v for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B1023A0E29 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:50:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mgATk-0000D6-BM for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:50:20 -0400
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:50:13 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-ID: <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 18:50:28 -0000

Hi,

I have been trying to figure out how to respond to the Last Call
announcement without getting into nits, minutia, and even how to
give guidance to the RSA that I don't have much confidence they
will follow if input from the RSWG and Streams runs counter to
it (especially if people are making "look toward the future, not
the past" arguments).

That aside, I think there are three main clusters of issues:

(1) I continue to be worried about actual publications
expertise.  Replacing the RSE-based model with an RSCE is fine,
but there is no way to guarantee that the RSAB will pay any
attention to them, especially if the community (as represented
in the WG) and at least a few Streams want something else.
Maybe that is what we want, but I suggest it might be a mistake.

(2) We don't distinguish very well between important strategic
issues and, at the other extreme, subjects about which it may be
more important to make a decision among a set of reasonable
options than which option is chosen.  Instead, we seem to have a
community process for nearly everything.  That could result in
more community control (at least by the subset of the community
that feels passionately about the topics) and more transparency
but, as John Levine pointed out from a different perspective
[1], it could also lead to paralysis.

(3) The whole new system has many moving parts.  While I think
the draft does a good job of identifying roles and sorting
things out, I'm concerned that, should there be a big problem
--one on the scale of the one or two that brought us to this
point and effort-- enough different people will be responsible
for pieces of the puzzle that no one will be accountable.

best,
   john



[1]
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/Ly6kyS3h4Wo07RH0ydU7LHYQ5zA


From nobody Thu Oct 28 13:42:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15243A117E for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.918
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shXN_ZPvQ1-S for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490503A117C for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:42:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19SKgIWJ009047 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:42:18 +0100
Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D844604B for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:42:18 +0100 (BST)
Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1EA46048 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:42:18 +0100 (BST)
Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:42:17 +0100 (BST)
Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.138]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19SKgGxo017216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:42:17 +0100
Reply-To: 
From: "Adrian Farrel" 
To: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:42:15 +0100
Organization: Old Dog Consulting
Message-ID: <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0
Content-Language: en-gb
Thread-Index: AQFzyD+wlcFT0QaDJZYdVqGMP4/PKwIVZmuvAhq8cqIBVyiz0QILmZobAoExu/cCBfqBugIyyuyPAUjFoj0CN1os5AF8/w+SAnPJ1HICJd9EXwJTVMhkq98jnZA=
X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.138
X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk
X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00
X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26496.002
X-TM-AS-Result: No--10.744-10.0-31-10
X-imss-scan-details: No--10.744-10.0-31-10
X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26496.002
X-TMASE-Result: 10--10.744400-10.000000
X-TMASE-MatchedRID: vbSD0OnL8/K9GVQT/CmkaDYTypjB3iDVJuDBbd4NSqSGE3yy/nZe5aO0 LxjQxSTwWT71ALyRjrGav1YUa92VFZnFDQsuYb5/mvnKSb020hy6qBWpGhCyIM1dwdxsp+qztf2 GcyrOX7tuX3zdKrmkl7Vqvx2tcTljyM67skTwquX0VCHd+VQiHv6lpfpte41hh7/KLUHlCEIwet G3GIwrhlKEgRWPY034uTdvQZ05p4fvR0iShIQfDs0FoZGuAEDVK4tp34QvTwvfUZT83lbkELebm m+KmOSCBCPMTbLSBz/ahCf7VTZeqYLlIgsvyxa8OIQ9GP2P2u+iGsyrScSFB6req3y2ZbA8IAJi 2l7q3lslZV7m1z/D3LfI28g4PTEfVJtD53JF5nT5WZT2GFh+nRg6dAPBanTEmyiLZetSf8nv41b khef/xwzKt8/2P4LV33fj+sMArfMaMUyeC0staJwDp1OIv3zjTLuakgDA11VYoLq0/znLoiNNEg 8k3QJG0PpPn4B4Mw7cvPbVTqw4pQ==
X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:42:25 -0000

Hi,

I have comments about the update to RFC 8730.

There may be a more general issue about all of the updates, because the
document is sparse in its explanations of what the updates actually are.
With a protocol spec I think we would normally require some clarification of
what is being added to or changed in the updated document.

But I have a special interest in 8730 as the serving ISE.
I *think* that the intention here is to define additional responsibilities
of the ISE, and not to make any changes to the processes or responsibilities
defined in 8730 except the replacement of mentions of RSOC as described in
A.5
If so, it would be helpful if the Introduction said something like...
This document updates [RFC8730] by defining additional responsibilities for
the Independent Submissions Editor and by removing references to the RSOC.

By the way, A.5 says "this document dispenses with the RSOC" but there is no
prior mention of that change and only one mention of the RSOC (at the top of
Section 2).
I suspect A5 should also say, "...with oversight now provided as described
in Section X." But, I don't find the right section of the document to point
at for this.

Additionally, A.5 says "References to the RSOC in documents such as
[RFC8730] are obsolete". What does "documents such as" mean here. Is it that
we need to do a quick grep across the RFCs to get the full list?

Also, A.5 has "this document does away with the RSOC." That language may be
a bit extreme and open to interpretation. Maybe "there is no role for the
RSOC in the processes described in this document."

Cheers,
Adrian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 13:50:35 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EFAC3A11A7 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:50:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.918
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yW8HLmWDCM7q for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:50:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490543A119E for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19SKoUnn007244 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:50:30 +0100
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6384604C for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:50:30 +0100 (BST)
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FB74604B for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:50:30 +0100 (BST)
Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:50:30 +0100 (BST)
Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.138]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19SKoSZj026740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:50:29 +0100
Reply-To: 
From: "Adrian Farrel" 
To: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:50:28 +0100
Organization: Old Dog Consulting
Message-ID: <109e01d7cc3d$7150a1a0$53f1e4e0$@olddog.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0
Content-Language: en-gb
Thread-Index: AQFzyD+wlcFT0QaDJZYdVqGMP4/PKwIVZmuvAhq8cqIBVyiz0QILmZobAoExu/cCBfqBugIyyuyPAUjFoj0CN1os5AF8/w+SAnPJ1HICJd9EXwJTVMhkAhiCvQerzm2BYA==
X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.138
X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk
X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00
X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26496.003
X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.684-10.0-31-10
X-imss-scan-details: No--4.684-10.0-31-10
X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26496.003
X-TMASE-Result: 10--4.684000-10.000000
X-TMASE-MatchedRID: cgbqQT5W8he9GVQT/CmkaDYTypjB3iDVJuDBbd4NSqSGE3yy/nZe5Uy1 Xqez2xw1ocnOFUzs4FsYEki5pCDcVwy0MFDlU705AjqAxuWkdTEgdghl533NdVqEAQv2j5NbfeR HqXTAYgbACW5na7Ydli5tO+3jvVrQI9FbSAJafIECOhpLDQSMVX0tCKdnhB58Sop8X3zKCAe0TA yiX6xiQg1fA1QHegDv3QfwsVk0UbsIoUKaF27lxaHeFMdPKMDw6qqLCadTGhEB46ALo6WtcQSoH 1u82QGVvJRlnE+vxnsg1ougESkGdrwxlHAVsyPfISPsj354qXmLi41iliqvJZHPL2WHD8Jkobq1 WmNYcl+MXVcJHhN2t1Mjqqxc9rqInqg/VrSZEiM=
X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:50:35 -0000

An issue in Section 3.1.2

   In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is
   incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint a delegate, the IAB (as
   the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall
   appoint a temporary member until the IRTF chair or ISE has been
   appointed by the IAB.

This sentence seems a bit mixed up.
The issue is that "the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise
unable to appoint a delegate". But the resolution is qualified with "until
the IRTF chair or ISE has been appointed by the IAB".
Surely the qualification should be "until the IRTF chair or ISE is able to
resume their duties".

Cheers,
Adrian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 14:19:02 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1463A120B for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mEL9NF3kUjU for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DFAA3A120A for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id x1-20020a17090a530100b001a1efa4ebe6so6088288pjh.0 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3Zv/vsBPUpgvIh8/Yi3B0LtFYJ3AlAChUtZjr1wfUvY=; b=gggUNd1FVC+g7dNXw7p4W3mYBypDoHjsMlmD/KGilDLnGNWqey69HG74J4tspiLBeW ZKTrBNXf0iC0fj01MVx7EJhPAH0CUwCOJZYJR+yn6LpzH27hFxwp4OSJthvGweoyWYAn 3QjGoMxgfHtG0AT+0TfHedcVo/39ijvpbMiZiWE/XBgqzigOPx4h+InKF6s2UPne++hR MtmCLnOwNyhEe3w9E78fPTt7wt2tjT3SI4jjdkgc7CfV/rF/xZIj3WmuBpsEusHMZITX 8n5uY77ZP3YxqSe9aIHU+eCh1kVqYROez/rw+PsULuB/Fbt83/fMVm5iOYTQSCZxUjS6 dNfw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3Zv/vsBPUpgvIh8/Yi3B0LtFYJ3AlAChUtZjr1wfUvY=; b=2eZ2aTYDCtg45m1AC3sxWPPVjvE5Jwmax15Hoc8TKQ15+xuKFt6/xL156GvxHbfBPY WT3ZHbgZMrD7Mb9aXbWGRd4fGdqXcqKQ+Qt513LuKKwRQlHP80LQfQ1BM7W3ag9Zj/oX nDBv+BTfyokh1cxZIJTdAAuyOeZZluSW63NhmPNSYfjIzNbmVDDpiMQlqzjKTNTKVv/I T0GCrWaQQfWIbvCnWzgnwySLHriLvZoicHNWXvR6Uko3DRlpBXE69vny7YFCY95OIeDA NScisRYtU8XVDf35dmKNvOyzCjvcsjghc+gM9UjtXp1dm3LrZTn7z/c8l/R1RoMEFpvG zA6w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533D2//T8QQmJbSD+PH342mypT4YRgF1AL9FTRGSmqSI5PzS0TBO DBh75mVzpI+24uWo3TJGaOvNbH3TngSNzA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVOewRTqyYDZV/Hyn9HxRargMu2mt6zza/dS8tsrlskS+1ufOWOKMJav82hGlsuqBsYj5tZA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1649:: with SMTP id x9mr15284242pje.70.1635455936793;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d14sm3507966pgt.64.2021.10.28.14.18.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:18:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:18:51 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:19:01 -0000

On one point only:

On 29-Oct-21 09:42, Adrian Farrel wrote:
...

> Also, A.5 has "this document does away with the RSOC." That language may be
> a bit extreme and open to interpretation. Maybe "there is no role for the
> RSOC in the processes described in this document."


RFC5622/8728 apparently intended to abolish the RSAG but failed to
do so. Personally, I prefer the current text to avoid any doubt.

    Brian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 14:20:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD1C3A1216 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CEy71YlvW3Tc for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30CE53A1210 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id p18so2045944plf.13 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YcJlCeNjv0dT/YS4GjHpWq0VhGcXg+rqHZJJlGj3LBE=; b=Um4hrqTrzbf05GbBCva7wQo+JJ6OVteZFIIJ5G0qbKTO5Up742kQssFbtKkP4UFjxZ tsnmgCA5tg5zP5bqzAF+Iq+5YmaQTaSsl5oPt4dzx/lbZSnxFDcopez7Z7L5S8V50Uoz hVdhixYwzpZxFXnChd9e0PLcTkCfAcSeY4e+wf1DPJHI44i3566MB94pawGbdXoRvW4U Y5mykGBfvWVCHa99AmNVRZ++1aGmj1fxh7FjU+SeSbVTpeyq1hct195TPHQbWBGzWFhx OcNNfa8sp7KTXC/k4DFxPTRWSVyqQ2uj8hLxZ2roXhU2+vPHkYBG9kRoQCYeZcuiULP5 vANw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YcJlCeNjv0dT/YS4GjHpWq0VhGcXg+rqHZJJlGj3LBE=; b=GG86tifPtslRnb2RSTpBeBv8nAgCwknBiOzjx8vV1CvL7hG/1GFNfT0/UAixGYCrk0 WSKhrhyb912gOGi+Bm4qYq3mZ0InkZG0AnQEEKEljIIJktHkoBE/zNVmw2fkXPete/PN Uy74QJk12mAlIhzCu22hiujP7j2RfCuROo7vHr9TT6K74LBaXSw5rSFt1QTo9LlT9le8 8HhOjmZEbJ9MSgeLPKmRhGR9TYo2RE6QyRO7UyALvzs/YWgb2A3RksT1dvaq42EUy31Z 61mL9snCr0a4ljNCGCQOu3LExVYS1EEOK2ITGvqO2ABQTKGDHLax/JKEq8hol6jOyUvv D7iA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Cd/lubo/Cs6gJLTk3eiX+hQzAy0Nx6E83PGdboAflmVyvZa3s LNH6uIUuuisqfQmRLX+kqn9fRuvQT1kkSA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxG69pnzA5bIrMLzkg3GwMaLGBxdaGFjyRGQNxrAY3yDUTEtAmidEUwRHct5U/wbGbSZ7ZHSA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ce85:b0:13e:dfc0:139 with SMTP id f5-20020a170902ce8500b0013edfc00139mr6046123plg.80.1635455999871;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k22sm4689660pfu.148.2021.10.28.14.19.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Michael StJohns 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>    
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <5ad703b8-497a-0b62-f2b0-20665403f72f@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:19:54 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:20:06 -0000

On 29-Oct-21 01:00, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 12:16 AM Eliot Lear > wrote:
>=20
>     Mike, everyone,
>=20
>     First, a point of clarification.=C2=A0 I don't have a strong positi=
on.=C2=A0 I may
>     not have couched my words properly, but my only bias really is to f=
ix
>     the issues we can now, and not attempt to fix the issues we can't.
>=20
>     Christian has put things rather concretely by suggesting that
>     fundamental parameters of the serious like whether RFCs are immutab=
le
>     might be changed.=C2=A0 There may be other aspects.=C2=A0 But I don=
't think we get
>     through this without either dropping the word heritage or significa=
ntly
>     elaborating it.=C2=A0 I think it may not be necessary to use the wo=
rd.=C2=A0 See
>     below.
>=20
>     Furthermore, there are enough concerns around this matter, that I d=
on't
>     see how we don't expose the tension at all.=C2=A0 But there is a di=
fference
>     between exposing that tension and trying to govern it. I don't thin=
k we
>     do any harm to Eric's concerns if we do the former (EKR, you can an=
d
>     should correct me if you strongly disagree, but see below), and I h=
ave
>     very little confidence that we will find any consensus on the latte=
r.
>=20
>     With that in mind, we already have the following in Section 3.2.1:
>=20
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 Because policy issues can be difficult and contenti=
ous, RSWG
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 participants and RSAB members are strongly encourag=
ed to work
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 together in a spirit of good faith and mutual under=
standing to
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 achieve rough consensus (see [RFC7282]).=C2=A0 In p=
articular, RSWG members
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 are encouraged to take RSAB concerns seriously, and=20
RSAB members are
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 encouraged to clearly express their concerns early =
in the process and
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 to be responsive to the community.=C2=A0 All partie=
s are encouraged to
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 respect the value of each stream and the long-term =
health and
>      > =C2=A0=C2=A0 viability of the RFC Series.
>=20
>     Perhaps it is this last sentence that we might amend:
>=20
>      > =C2=A0All parties are encouraged to, respect the value of each s=
tream and
>      > the long-term health and
>      > =C2=A0viability of the RFC Series, and to give consideration for=20
both the
>      > factors that have led to the series'=C2=A0 wide acceptance, and =
those that
>      > require it to evolve to see to its continued success.
>=20
>=20
> I would be fine with this text.
>=20
> -Ekr

Agreed
    Brian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 14:32:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3190A3A1236 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.917
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZ7JqSBco4kA for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487513A123F for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19SLWiL1019405; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:32:44 +0100
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA2A4604A; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:32:44 +0100 (BST)
Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA46043; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:32:44 +0100 (BST)
Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:32:44 +0100 (BST)
Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.138]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 19SLWh9R022431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:32:44 +0100
Reply-To: 
From: "Adrian Farrel" 
To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk> <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:32:42 +0100
Organization: Old Dog Consulting
Message-ID: <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0
Content-Language: en-gb
Thread-Index: AQFzyD+wlcFT0QaDJZYdVqGMP4/PKwIVZmuvAhq8cqIBVyiz0QILmZobAoExu/cCBfqBugIyyuyPAUjFoj0CN1os5AF8/w+SAnPJ1HICJd9EXwJTVMhkAhiCvQcCRXz0iau8S/vA
X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.138
X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk
X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00
X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26496.003
X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.480-10.0-31-10
X-imss-scan-details: No--4.480-10.0-31-10
X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26496.003
X-TMASE-Result: 10--4.479600-10.000000
X-TMASE-MatchedRID: QW5G6BKkLTq9GVQT/CmkaDYTypjB3iDVJuDBbd4NSqSGE3yy/nZe5ch+ hkWOQ+NPXwwXpNyeBJd4v4hIyyBGYQTI9DBbkEFqE9L0HNvKzVFm8qF4pBsxH7V5fSMRD1zqEeW UGBiCoDXJNW44uQlXQlIAF6kglGoNlX+iQruz3vHxryc2N+6fmuvWkvu/824/S411xkMup5SLt6 3p7uWNMIbsz5ko7Ckc8pGH6AokuO8SXa0ZuTFXpdU+1rk2qcdKicCHz0eydvRUJuP/nl2H/pqZC YSsFJCi3UZhrlpuBAXQLWxBF9DMQcRB0bsfrpPIqxB32o9eGclbq40UtBIRznwU+Dk5dsRRe3vS 7Q7U2QhgcJSoGDNj6B9yy2B+TZm9vQ0wuEnw3E7kFvvtxvuhGXzGB51paP2JGnTIiuh6tVcwC2E 5JhjWoLnrea/QXYb3dOnI8WPGJZtXLGtABlf0m/uiDMcv/L85wL6SxPpr1/I=
X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:32:53 -0000

It's probably cultural, Brian.

"To do away with" commonly means "to put to death deliberately".

A

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter =20
Sent: 28 October 2021 22:19
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab.org
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021

On one point only:

On 29-Oct-21 09:42, Adrian Farrel wrote:
...

> Also, A.5 has "this document does away with the RSOC." That language =
may be
> a bit extreme and open to interpretation. Maybe "there is no role for =
the
> RSOC in the processes described in this document."


RFC5622/8728 apparently intended to abolish the RSAG but failed to
do so. Personally, I prefer the current text to avoid any doubt.

    Brian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 14:53:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530693A1290 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:53:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmuPtH-fdFQA for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4C3A3A1284 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id i5so5402967pla.5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NzGJNfjtqyYUtXl3YUEBFcT70B+xBG/uw6D4WkD5ciQ=; b=Xdf/HSVi0WYeu5DOB8x2hegAod/f/Y2QBngdtj4ljpK+3L9QZcoM4kDEMpTFxsL/mr NRlwHCR9hozGhpqjMXxPM/LiCQZooWJ5jMbR0NhqKEWRjQ3oaiRHxrOeweKp5H+LA5/Y MOysDMnU+bTfGwlPJe/4Dovl2amqvdZbk1Z9BP8F2Oe8VZQEkv1MUNj6J452FZH14+Fo XQ+IfN8YayBHFoeuN8OI1PPT3cNs4+XcMBn+afFhU2tNWcWgS/3s8L3wc0HROeScyend vE5vgkcVozYqmUd4mf7mQS0+RkA9fZJjMzI/B9Eal6jFjWryZMq6OJAwjOe1WnnpA9lC 4mow==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NzGJNfjtqyYUtXl3YUEBFcT70B+xBG/uw6D4WkD5ciQ=; b=f2hcLxaFLaMbWSRD09V53rjQw6gSDEECdkgt9LHpXqizdHvJvarNSDrT0V5ISNJ1hc bgk/oKQSwN/agjtn3kzLL+shVDShW1rcUnfbZnwIttPoIup8grUjyYQZ0XMqa0QT2op7 /QKgg6TAG+5Qi5V9MAJz6s4ruxmai0GYb6sPfsLxmDrVPGrmUDzs/7WbnRkxQse9OQ10 tsnxfaYTVw6mc5bgqYEz5qJVD8awyWwc4CMdmlyB7dp6Xz9joxZMoWef24nU+qFd0oQp Zl6UNtwjFdCgwtD04M6jaOzjh57dXfJTApytoSVZWRCoXuhKNGi2EkClksfyL5dc58/Q 9SMw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322OuG2/IFF3ibKA7P4Wg8yO6IxIhsfKfZsu5u2jv/kv9edXm0z Q7kannPUEa7IWr7QLVroAcTlpHsyblg7/A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHUhc8Vw+Wc13/foYErZUErkqs+f91nfKYFO4vID46DA6+BFqkn4VP07Ptfmg4CO7qywpDGw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d4c4:b0:140:55fc:480a with SMTP id o4-20020a170902d4c400b0014055fc480amr6044851plg.1.1635458001580;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:53:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x16sm4318794pff.186.2021.10.28.14.53.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:53:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Levine , rfced-future@iab.org
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:53:16 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:53:25 -0000

John,

On 29-Oct-21 05:36, John Levine wrote:
> Eliot asked if I had comments on the proposal, wearing my interim RFC series editor hat.
> 
> While I think it is a good idea that we finally give the RPC more
> autonomy, I also think it is a recipe for paralysis because no
> individual is empowered to do anything.
> 
> There are lots of small issues related to RFC publishing that need to
> be dealt with, and I cannot tell who would do that. As a concrete
> example, we have a longstanding issue that Google Scholar does not
> index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various coding and
> indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get them
> fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it
> breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be,
> to make the changes to fix it? Running this through the RSWG and RSAB
> with a formal proposal first for who gets to talk to them, and then
> to make whatever the changes are (which are likely small and obvious)
> would be a waste of everyone's time.> 
> While I understand the desire to make everything as transparent as
> possible, if every tiny unit of work is loaded with five units of proposing
> and debating and approval, not a lot of work is going to get done.


The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
(proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibilities",
isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.

     Brian
  


From nobody Thu Oct 28 14:58:04 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511493A12A5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wm508AbhRQLG for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B86B13A12A4 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id 187so7233893pfc.10 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Go3Doxitc9NstijT38uAzdoFvjsOD47Z9aoKNQxR/rU=; b=KeoWQw3DhE+p0bSjbRLbVNkVes/ofN2wqUBMleZc4SWvSxvU/utOTTnc+sKugdrBaU 8MGkt6geKwpmf5b9q9QkB5Tttre6yzHjIQ1acvaGjZk4m9ihlePPzV94nwrlDBvOOuTB +m81Q/B0OlAyl4r95+0sGeP9o/p5oacC++3CeczKsYeMr6h5GZnTeYJCULsZqTumahYI pnI+dr2Wibe8AtDyiBQ5ougYfbEKvEycx0cEFyCpCtAVbWdnDgDVKbkCHnFPrK10B4dp 7qZyweB7YGCUtMjA+ASuJk7rQbwMSlDIseXv0OsIK3AMAcRV+CU+oo348TetWkgYLfwY pZQQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Go3Doxitc9NstijT38uAzdoFvjsOD47Z9aoKNQxR/rU=; b=oYAJdRoTL69lFtKY8jhSf/m6iqJ5l/XsB+b1qKDhVah0wwur4MPCufPPLPv0SeSu4R 8D35MH/70iPLV+Otq9+CsUyXsIfdKjZUYMbdseXGZ/JnpuXUYz1r3CsRzL7sfBEo/Sqi Rxp/G7jnzI/NZCEnYlWo5qysPurvWCu/Oq5C9/T1OlITKk+/e2H9Xhr/Vg/yMbY5/n+E eao+3xUwL1mLOJ3DBqaTTh1HbVxUU8RiZgkK0v3AIDzqyDPQF+iDIZkvtPbUal+ar/LL qztPGT5ox4TcTQD94Pb3E1WKVt07iapxeJlVwAmHipMgyn3GYIB4d3iJcUn/wukJWVyf O7EQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FXO2e2Ykkvecm/fM5RTJ7gBM8ZaTObA6clA3pjosOcYLETvQF uUG46gLdExvKoDp/WRK4zXSIzic6A2HkoQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyR+FAN3+YbgOS6L4hvlOprKDlPQTu0wAIvZ6GyOBMDC0eUTZnov3xqZSJnKlWDPmvJfrLvFQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a62:7989:0:b0:47b:e0f6:de0f with SMTP id u131-20020a627989000000b0047be0f6de0fmr7089865pfc.42.1635458274298;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:57:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d15sm4866215pfu.12.2021.10.28.14.57.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:57:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk> <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com> <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:57:49 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:58:02 -0000

On 29-Oct-21 10:32, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> It's probably cultural, Brian.
> 
> "To do away with" commonly means "to put to death deliberately".

Yes, there is that interpretation. Let's look at the sentence in context:

    To overcome some of these issues, this document
    dispenses with the RSOC.  References to the RSOC in documents such as
    [RFC8730] are obsolete because this document does away with the RSOC.

Is "dispenses with" widely understood by non-native English speakers? How about:

    To overcome some of these issues, this document
    abolishes the RSOC.  References to the RSOC in documents such as
    [RFC8730] are therefore obsolete.

     Brian


> A
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter 
> Sent: 28 October 2021 22:19
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab.org
> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
> 
> On one point only:
> 
> On 29-Oct-21 09:42, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> ...
> 
>> Also, A.5 has "this document does away with the RSOC." That language may be
>> a bit extreme and open to interpretation. Maybe "there is no role for the
>> RSOC in the processes described in this document."
> 
> 
> RFC5622/8728 apparently intended to abolish the RSAG but failed to
> do so. Personally, I prefer the current text to avoid any doubt.
> 
>      Brian
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 28 15:27:59 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EFB13A1302 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ca_U-EYHqJ32 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE4AD3A1301 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id m184so10226320iof.1 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RwbyHbly0K+s0KqJ6wgcDCpJx/JJZ0NCL+TvXuvhA4I=; b=WKO1jU7mxJ10/06Gy5eUidHn8PIEkPPYqEYHXP4istRKKldsGxOA1r4UrwjdcMcqf+ ywlnjQS5BCRsIqL296ChENVZ+qy4ZtXfk3SemJHO/BRP4AEEn3c5lDJSJmvMLNODCnMQ yxDBLUSnAPcAP+JdiE0sq0yUkobFMqiAGLeQPwJsSSWfcd1YP9aZaoxcBmPCPB2lRGPN PhgsitVEJD7hR9jLx+Lti+9TZ2XN9Z3FyFBDT0uFdG9ypXoUNSYZuvpAqQ/rkEu35ZAI 5T63xLHESBd8tOufR1GJXVWRTjBkjynqmeOzYQeQsADiZG2z4xKyFw1rbqXJvc1ZKPf/ aMOg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RwbyHbly0K+s0KqJ6wgcDCpJx/JJZ0NCL+TvXuvhA4I=; b=d1BxwPY3lVvQzz3yvimPW/7djnOuiA1l/gXAcxu24OfAuCTBX4tl9126gdRb6NIzQO 3kNCI7uSLlfhnDs+zWdS3JuR2ecMnl9nsDEDQBBzkkSWfZdZoUHIUNm9buLS6gMDckcV sj941Vlqig+s3hML366y/b8HyyvmbiKbMZoK/G/3ikfGeY8s22Q6fbfw7DiplFJ51Y+R 3Y5nqRIa5MVBG930PAA3uQv5l2ooS8bUzRiPRWdqCo6SnkcQtJGoExxGCBfOT94b77PP 28Jt2Kh2tZOn4nMQ/bmKgDzt44Mwl9mz8uMkqi46rFsyzhKHj8qd0+tbyo36oDcG5o2P 368g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TNtohKuyG1HCMG6q3mpImSLHGrz2u6CczhpwTZnTdgDCoo1Ag 3YNncNscgbLArkrKLq4vm0CIJQ+rLYlgJJq8Thj5/c8Eum0=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxC3KvNvUN+hVhEDqvagBkJHZ/uhLOTBUCggw63DsqOyE+HLrEJ12Wa/Zn04oanw4TG5nr1Yw8sGjyG/+TeIxk=
X-Received: by 2002:a02:c897:: with SMTP id m23mr5232972jao.82.1635460070643;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk> <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com> <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk> 
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:27:14 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: Adrian Farrel , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e30e105cf7138c6"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:27:58 -0000

--0000000000008e30e105cf7138c6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Maybe "disbands"?

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 29-Oct-21 10:32, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> > It's probably cultural, Brian.
> >
> > "To do away with" commonly means "to put to death deliberately".
>
> Yes, there is that interpretation. Let's look at the sentence in context:
>
>     To overcome some of these issues, this document
>     dispenses with the RSOC.  References to the RSOC in documents such as
>     [RFC8730] are obsolete because this document does away with the RSOC.
>
> Is "dispenses with" widely understood by non-native English speakers? How
> about:
>
>     To overcome some of these issues, this document
>     abolishes the RSOC.  References to the RSOC in documents such as
>     [RFC8730] are therefore obsolete.
>
>      Brian
>
>
> > A
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter 
> > Sent: 28 October 2021 22:19
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; rfced-future@iab.org
> > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL:
> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
> >
> > On one point only:
> >
> > On 29-Oct-21 09:42, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >> Also, A.5 has "this document does away with the RSOC." That language
> may be
> >> a bit extreme and open to interpretation. Maybe "there is no role for
> the
> >> RSOC in the processes described in this document."
> >
> >
> > RFC5622/8728 apparently intended to abolish the RSAG but failed to
> > do so. Personally, I prefer the current text to avoid any doubt.
> >
> >      Brian
> >
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--0000000000008e30e105cf7138c6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Maybe "disbands"?

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021=
 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29-Oct-21 10:32, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> It's probably cultural, Brian.

> 

> "To do away with" commonly means "to put to death delib=
erately".



Yes, there is that interpretation. Let's look at the sentence in contex=
t:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To overcome some of these issues, this document

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dispenses with the RSOC.=C2=A0 References to the RSOC in docu=
ments such as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC8730] are obsolete because this document does away with t=
he RSOC.



Is "dispenses with" widely understood by non-native English speak=
ers? How about:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To overcome some of these issues, this document

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 abolishes the RSOC.=C2=A0 References to the RSOC in documents=
 such as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC8730] are therefore obsolete.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian





> A

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>

> Sent: 28 October 2021 22:19

> To: adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk; r=
fced-future@iab.org

> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc=
-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021

> 

> On one point only:

> 

> On 29-Oct-21 09:42, Adrian Farrel wrote:

> ...

> 

>> Also, A.5 has "this document does away with the RSOC." T=
hat language may be

>> a bit extreme and open to interpretation. Maybe "there is no =
role for the

>> RSOC in the processes described in this document."

> 

> 

> RFC5622/8728 apparently intended to abolish the RSAG but failed to

> do so. Personally, I prefer the current text to avoid any doubt.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

> 



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--0000000000008e30e105cf7138c6--


From nobody Thu Oct 28 17:04:25 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF50D3A1318 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:04:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.431
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=VlGh9oeB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=RUccfba7
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N_X5w3CywCoT for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF3B23A0A97 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E263201D21; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:04:17 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:04:17 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=q uuTGpOjDyGaMLnWiEwJVxPBsgAgi4aExqfFsnvhevw=; b=VlGh9oeBkUUCjm8QI EIzwADWuX07PLlj30j1seqz4kUcUK3mOmY3bG09E5kGIv1yxVnzHEAiLfPSKh/z/ ALxEHOVV2OaDEGkoR9N/WVuV9Nzr2pcckgSiXWMeCieBMRJEkSzjO0SVQAMbP9bp Yzqb2Sqc7ujn5SCFaLZJesKnKe45V9eCJ2IKaEw6NRBFhS/+5/Hv1M5Fnt6YsAK1 SEhBuHRcNU5hBzphODBjJJ4pFL0HxNBfej3aR9nhwbSlG9hHS0jOBpG/7Z4hNOd1 17Nnbit2QW/0SZ11Lgq19uF1Bsu8sa9BxHNx22b5AymrxzIGizrMB0XxLfBNKLKS 2aRew==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=quuTGpOjDyGaMLnWiEwJVxPBsgAgi4aExqfFsnvhe vw=; b=RUccfba75LKiVwprHflj+61c2+5S+iiF3l0PBMZvBGrIIcWxBbr54vJr1 baYRtsFVd2cROF6V5k8scF4oVBLFmpraDeIri9VwSBZmi2vJZooYPOs/4U5RVPAx IOcIYe8ULOKh3qn7kiWn8MMLwYFQO2g7zHQDUo6gOJdVTHXOPFr6aXnZCwenX+Ix l66J6pDPjjGi520jXIYJ4d7QANH9LSj6fZlL/wIoRdW6xbuDpxkD21k8PhQkQtDq gbQSRPdtcXIG0d28KLmHCUKZXlBdY8qWIkG7YvGHnckc5L22I8lRAvb+d5TDL6Hl K515QsjzWfoiDs1QEsxTREgyAbNTA==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdeggedgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:04:14 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 18:04:14 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Adrian Farrel 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk> <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com> <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk>  
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:04:24 -0000

On 10/28/21 4:27 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Maybe "disbands"?

+1


From nobody Thu Oct 28 17:15:13 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB993A13C6 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=H8sjSdge; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=hfTrCSef
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lm92Ym-9aMfA for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:15:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C08AB3A13C5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 24400 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2021 00:14:59 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=5f4e.617b3d03.k2110; bh=9BEcVZgSErEzH8EZDCtiWUzVXbac6PCf7Ent/SeKyd0=; b=H8sjSdge8ltRGP4tZUMIW0kiOBJ7WUpes1buu5AwwcuYv7t3dLcRafG1rBZB/sH8PsMRkYWe/5QEkCZU1kZO+blMKBuPDSG5+qlNnnD9DV7M++vwoo9LVArOqjmWA+2q2iya+MjI1rS1DN3JDQ8R2R2OkD/g3hcVzWtFfpADFYtY56Xb6JW/vW3Js7uVQ8jHd+mhdL/kUyOS7nRL/XgEr2V91B3IXngqUu0CRDddscDQWKq0Up94PlvAYX2OSc0mHoRef3m80YT+SXy8LwD8BTdHPjpQ8+3rGkISBUN4ol01nzzSzBF7nnpf3cknqsXoLjBsxtquHOO5W3P71EVJKA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=5f4e.617b3d03.k2110; bh=9BEcVZgSErEzH8EZDCtiWUzVXbac6PCf7Ent/SeKyd0=; b=hfTrCSefq236Yq9pr/f2PEFO+avezsnPew9SIwOZ9rVbaW6mibZYiupc/E51z21RI6KDfE8jXasx259MFl1dPrmRL4wIhexVVr1L+6gzrYIWDozge/fnbNZMz6sGvqIUktBvwoivueDmAtoc6D0sx70IE21jEn80xG3hEtCiK0S83mMxK22GlLa/uZwl71S0Hz4J/0P6uikblEflmSKaG/s/XcVw0skMqdlUyPpqYLhszma92h0XVNkSk/s7os0MensahuMqvDi99LOcY/oUg0DTxQ4C+P+lfsVNLL7ex0xkqv9M+NBzsas+1X7ESVa9ijotiBfv25SQ9CcvCdhcuw==
Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 29 Oct 2021 00:14:59 -0000
Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3E31D2F35A67; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:14:57 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997112F35A49; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:14:57 -0400 (EDT)
Date: 28 Oct 2021 20:14:57 -0400
Message-ID: <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com>
From: "John R Levine" 
To: "Brian E Carpenter" , rfced-future@iab.org
X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy
In-Reply-To: <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:15:11 -0000

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google Scholar 
>> does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various coding 
>> and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get 
>> them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it 
>> breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, 
>> to make the changes to fix it? ...

> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibilities",
> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.

We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The RPC is 
as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, 
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen to 
extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it because 
I used to do expert witness work for Google.)

If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the RPC to 
fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consult the 
RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.

We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on 
their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address 
them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for 
paralysis.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly


From nobody Thu Oct 28 17:33:09 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CBA3A13D5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jQyPXQitw0-7 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEF2F3A13D4 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48144127A54; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jvy5Bn4SzIzx; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E26404127A52; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:33:01 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:32:56 +1300
Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com>
To: John R Levine 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:33:08 -0000

> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine  wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google =
Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various =
coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can =
get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then =
it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, =
to make the changes to fix it? ...
>=20
>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC =
Responsibilities",
>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>=20
> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The =
RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, =
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen =
to extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it =
because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>=20
> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the RPC =
to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consult =
the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>=20
> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on =
their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address =
them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for =
paralysis.

As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new model =
focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with =
support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)  As =
the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is =
solely an implementation issue.

We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of =
the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not =
part of that.

Jay


>=20
> Regards,
> John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. =
https://jl.ly
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Thu Oct 28 17:48:54 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981BA3A0773 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ThvQ1gh89XC9 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 503A23A0771 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id p18so2369855plf.13 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k7URgFtOq8ogvLvsBNpePix84lIjbNFjT1wqGyFP/PU=; b=dxzYhJfqRZbEUppyZu5oDaUPWG79+G5yDBfnjfX8XkWt54LsitxweP9SycAF3sR9W7 O4o+ba2kEZS4vGbI9J+HzXIDMIsIJE/k3btXfqzpVZWaq0A5yOY9XocN9ZoeX8RZTPt4 1r5qD/k7+4qQ6t9OX1eoRzQIiGguTpcJQI2Tp9KAV8TIewV5UpbOV1fAAnos4MHCj5A4 /bZQV5lHJbMX3EEwlYxnvMHUOL7y/rWDDaDxiiVSs7Hr9VUWolwxENk2FOuMDO1tqwLR sAFVLI+XhyYRpDUOZ6Tg0ojYQUWuPweqvGki2Yg9/+YN9UJ9Hvk4hNNEyJepZTWt2cWZ 4lVw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=k7URgFtOq8ogvLvsBNpePix84lIjbNFjT1wqGyFP/PU=; b=8LTwSOb9H2niGVimvY1nS8EFKpJeX0e+x4BM9jv4h9m+XURtIX4g3EiYRWCUS20RvE ml0D1DH4qAoq37osfoJGKfgjuJkJRi8Y1kTad2SHUYX2cpZKp1UAIlWi98Brvx50X56u 4y0S88SY0duNY0YJlkl0fS5x5B5YyAzTKTybsSdwQiLvut2iRuhTeUxo+HbKEuG8dUYQ tr98Emth4qnJ0133oo903p7pPGMDeN/RUjIQ0PSxyLraq9hmxuEnZYqEfERBXT4I6qkL zWvSEdB+jGcRawWwezi+LjaOEfOXpHpkxYB70Wd4uTUAaP0mRzQY821qnDFlj6BE/Nwm Mnyg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306XXUvpXhfLS+rcZz9+Uuy56R1vrglcP99th8ER/phCc05BzSh o8upcw0rnY5gR7j9RrVQklJyhqzk/5q+Gw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy19VADED020gY4AZ+/+JdAKaHAIsecZFOd5ppNPpMUqHxwO6AC/053LRNJQfOnn6mX7O4Axw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a78f:: with SMTP id f15mr8118016pjq.106.1635468529374;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:48:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m10sm8789853pjs.21.2021.10.28.17.48.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:48:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Adrian Farrel 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk> <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com> <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk>   
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:48:44 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:48:53 -0000

On 29-Oct-21 13:04, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 10/28/21 4:27 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> Maybe "disbands"?
> 
> +1

No objection
    Brian


From nobody Thu Oct 28 17:53:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8593A0783 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVzyKVmD4o9x for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ED413A0779 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7CD4127A54; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RCNmzKR_rbgD; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC1E34127A52; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\))
From: Jay Daley 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:53:16 +1300
Cc: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, Adrian Farrel 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <74E25E14-E130-4D9C-A837-42218B1A141B@ietf.org>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>    <556dcfa8-201b-63b7-3e6e-a4b3d8d50a1a@cs.tcd.ie>   <49B72760-1D96-443D-883B-DBE957CC385D@akamai.com> <5C388AD465938B28DC248C1A@PSB> <109b01d7cc3c$4bea9d90$e3bfd8b0$@olddog.co.uk> <49de4ce3-ef05-7084-2639-e8c0a076bc32@gmail.com> <10a301d7cc43$57cbd410$07637c30$@olddog.co.uk>   
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:53:29 -0000

> On 29/10/2021, at 1:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
> 
> On 10/28/21 4:27 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> Maybe "disbands"?
> 
> +1

or "disestablishes" if we want to be very precise.

Jay

> 
> -- 
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> 

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


From nobody Thu Oct 28 21:13:59 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926D83A08C1 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=hH5UQaCE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Ld1VE7cf
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ueAR-KChQay9 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 054343A08CC for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BBE3201EA5; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:13:50 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:13:50 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=C n/5m4fwyrHQzHFxwwpET+TcKGECXrao0K1VowcFbgc=; b=hH5UQaCEse+8jp5mh qJhMv+xSxuhj7Ztz0GQkq4iwy1cQlEZxx0jyMLiuBxDitR7FiFv8uVgzDYnAjYrH VCo4mtWcGsa7fHNXjbrOb5R1ejXTUakr74Qy95bK0DVnBPCNlF3IZX4hDDQbVMwp VpOrGHjJGg1RjWedmlEsJ+SdtQBIJ2knhUpftv25FkpNdG4xIx3JuJyZKxpWawDg LJZZwV7bg/8bSotBqxUVTGthg+efjeZmiLbH9gKdbBcn9/iJYJ0K8dM/MHMflTDY jDuilvN3iNXme0adhPQW31p43s1iFQevJFta3gS51VkbC+N320GJh6lagHXokltj BEg/Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Cn/5m4fwyrHQzHFxwwpET+TcKGECXrao0K1VowcFb gc=; b=Ld1VE7cfji8ZMh+zKfr3rYJXuctcRHcIwgz2z+k7wVB4Rbt7zGj1mixpn d2CYaGP32mpRYIPQ511G+G/DYbZfZ2crkpOawawt+ZbElMK7P4R3NcP7vyxuIO+R IQHukCph5zkN36Q6w8BMVsiuAal2WoEgXbajnbAjbI6W0ejLB7UucSO2ir/BxcXi gkva4C4qTI+XmfEBwprJ09KJT1o9SgSvR3evhq7zBPyNRIStKpEYooYBgduu/ofU bqHe/BPoJXLYPHPYu8boqtGJbik0xFBc8XYuo3AbFJPaKDRzhVS99UDDgH5pubS5 ns0YcKoghPGrRTz1RRH75sAyL508g==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdeggedgjeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeekjefgtdffhedttefhtdevgfetvdehuddtlefftdehieejudekvefhfeeiffdv ueenucffohhmrghinhepjhhlrdhlhidpihgrsgdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:13:46 +1100
Cc: John R Levine , rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org>
To: Jay Daley 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 04:13:58 -0000

This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.=20

What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a =
lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be =
by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would =
still retain change control over the output, of course, but it would =
enable things like this to make progress.

Does that makes sense?

Cheers,


* I.e., without publishing an RFC.



> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine  wrote:
>>=20
>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google =
Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various =
coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can =
get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then =
it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, =
to make the changes to fix it? ...
>>=20
>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC =
Responsibilities",
>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>=20
>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The =
RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, =
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen =
to extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it =
because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>=20
>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the =
RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then =
consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>=20
>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on =
their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address =
them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for =
paralysis.
>=20
> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new =
model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC =
(with support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6) =
 As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is =
solely an implementation issue.
>=20
> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of =
the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not =
part of that.
>=20
> Jay
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. =
https://jl.ly
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Thu Oct 28 21:57:26 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A463A0907 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:57:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzUjcJ0-U3Cu for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A01383A096B for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id n36-20020a17090a5aa700b0019fa884ab85so9661530pji.5 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rJFOa1ntgKWi2CGX7wnA7dgQdiJMaoBMFI26OYCIoLo=; b=GiBiywTJIs4zAi7XyAT81Igixf60ET344oRYcqfvRqS07SBVYYJ1hDOjuSCo67MxQx fr/ASwlzeSb5sc4ri4GetALRU6xwrk9Uvr4cpgzlXSaUY0TbNbEv5J3aix4HyG1A0NXz 426OkLoAPu7faTVY7/XgTIXvAN/wukm9orRq0OwWRx0lKrvVC7mPwIwtUaI3A2IzJlvT lks1AcCdneeUfn29uY9Fo6BoIOnKHa2a1osqWDEvJiBwNQ/Z7yqi+bJRfQC+8m/uCtnQ aWdP4iAn57Oeez/WUDPiy16IGwFcGHluESypwzR7kHNyP+4hYETIqRc7x32xVNvofv2a sMcQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rJFOa1ntgKWi2CGX7wnA7dgQdiJMaoBMFI26OYCIoLo=; b=yixAoI/QwQUNP4wEiQw7zY1ntmURNXeWOWeRsYM7F4mnpmKMPvw/rCA1eplu0CdixJ 5SI0a4Kc7zLJ86B0ifPri2Kk8KkWSYeB1eM9MdqDS5sLlXobatceLqmZefv+0xmtvGle HBbRCmsGbLjBVYuFsVEIxmI1jl7OxIFXh6ZJGhLZfz1mXzvT5XdRTRvIs3YGnDeYiOQH NLD5enfVPr9mIFoKUdfJNsRH9oPW99M/t+fuKxVo2gaYtQ07cjRWwQoGFYbxEWNW8RAm TnFOTIvkvE0/OjoJDe+Isxhkl1blioMni99gmQEOZYhi4aui58iVldW8QH8QkSNhB0wZ NI4w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TOn+7M/TSh+QYanuPml6IQS/tBIBcP5iOLWyymE72fk8emo+S K/eC44WBxqgPUmdyQcbTtuvv3Mvq7psTIg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy7XfhSAZQBY13/kI2b43eO4Zt7FD1izjoWCBMkc6ajjZKz2sshEc0jFGVO2EiTRZKJh9Cxiw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a48:: with SMTP id lb8mr9261425pjb.236.1635483436502;  Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm5061547pfp.14.2021.10.28.21.57.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mark Nottingham , Jay Daley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:57:11 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 04:57:24 -0000

What output would there be, except "We'd like Google Scholar listing" or =
something similar.

I don't see why this needs any process to be described.

Regards
    Brian

On 29-Oct-21 17:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.
>=20
> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lightwei=
ght way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the RPC=
, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still reta=
in change control over the output, of course, but it would enable things =
like this to make progress.
>=20
> Does that makes sense?
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley  wrote:=

>>
>>
>>
>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google Sch=
olar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various cod=
ing and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get =
them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it br=
eaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, to ma=
ke the changes to fix it? ...
>>>
>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibiliti=
es",
>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>>
>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The R=
PC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, u=
nsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen to=20
extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it becaus=
e I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>>
>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the RP=
C to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consult=20
the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>>
>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on =
their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address th=
em.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for para=
lysis.
>>
>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new mode=
l focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with s=
upport from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)  As the=20
Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is solely an =
implementation issue.
>>
>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of=20
the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not p=
art of that.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://j=
l.ly
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>
>>
>> --=20
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director
>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 28 23:02:09 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545DC3A0A9B for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K7MyUbz388VZ for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E0C73A0A9A for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a10c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.161.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HgWz90Qc3z30S8; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:01:57 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\))
From: Carsten Bormann 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:01:56 +0200
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 657180116.269429-35b756dfa1fc20d442aad9cefb7de243
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 06:02:07 -0000

On 2021-10-29, at 06:57, Brian E Carpenter  =
wrote:
>=20
> What output would there be, except "We'd like Google Scholar listing" =
or something similar.
>=20
> I don't see why this needs any process to be described.

Different example: We=E2=80=99d like DOIs on our RFCs.
OK, that has already happened.
(It even was mildly controversial because of the somewhat unsavory way =
DOIs came to be.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Fri Oct 29 00:44:14 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7513A0D58; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:44:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.419
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z6-Zkiv5SNmU; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB9AE3A0D41; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:44:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19T7i1wl2475572 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:44:02 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635493443; bh=JH3HG/jLtNVt3n9ttuq++2vcrNPtAIDFdkFlz72b6kU=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=mqjHt2dX3aE5Sbva03x6kpjM+gYwndkY9BCriYKVD/86M2sXvhJbTlu+ENEcTz+tC rp8vLnB40CsP89uVLnftDBQyhBvwGtQoz+kee4tb4F5RynGfmWiicsBrDifE43zWra xA7F7Z0/pSoWlmdqYywBw7jzF+mwR4KubmimZId0=
Message-ID: <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:44:00 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Mark Nottingham , Jay Daley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Tl3NCBkoLrlaZzp1VKgdUSYa"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:44:13 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------Tl3NCBkoLrlaZzp1VKgdUSYa
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------hasQveUQjp00KWgKkI8BDKbJ";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mark Nottingham , Jay Daley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine 
Message-ID: <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy>
 <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com>
 <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com>
 <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org>
 <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>

--------------hasQveUQjp00KWgKkI8BDKbJ
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------aNrdqmPE03I71AdUTHcjlaIE"

--------------aNrdqmPE03I71AdUTHcjlaIE
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------zM0iQBKdNxIEAjeA09HkzZRC"

--------------zM0iQBKdNxIEAjeA09HkzZRC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------zM0iQBKdNxIEAjeA09HkzZRC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    
We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:<=
br>
    

    


    

    

      
=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 If requested, provid=
e expert advice
        to the RPC and IETF LLC

      

    

    
And then we say:

      


        =C2=A0=C2=A0 Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could i=
nclude
        the

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):

        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs=


        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Publication formats for the RFC Series

        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Changes to the RFC style guide

        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Series-wide guidelines regarding document co=
ntent and
        quality

        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Web presence for the RFC Series

        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Copyright matters related to the RFC Series<=
br>
        

        =C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RF=
Cs

    

    
So here we have an example of indexing.=C2=A0 The only issue is wh=
en a
      commitment is needed.=C2=A0 In that case, either the RPC has the
      authority, the ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek
      the authority.=C2=A0 And then the question turns to whom.

    
Am I missing something?

    
Eliot=C2=A0 

    

    
On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham
      wrote:

    

    

      
This area has been a concern=
 in the back of my mind too.=20

What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lightweigh=
t way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the RPC, =
the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still retain=
 change control over the output, of course, but it would enable things li=
ke this to make progress.

Does that makes sense?

Cheers,


* I.e., without publishing an RFC.





      

        
On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 a=
m, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:





        

          
On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 P=
M, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:


          

            

              
As a concrete exampl=
e, we have a longstanding issue that Google Scholar does not index RFCs. =
I think I know what the problem is, various coding and indexing issues on=
 the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get them fixed before my term =
runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it breaks again, who has the au=
thority to talk to Google and if need be, to make the changes to fix it? =
=2E..


            

          

          

          

            
The language in sectio=
ns 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
(proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibilities",
isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.


          

          
We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The RPC i=
s as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, unsur=
prisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen to ext=
end to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it because I=
 used to do expert witness work for Google.)

If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the RPC to=
 fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consult the=
 RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.

We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on thei=
r own and assign those problems directly to people who can address them. =
 Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for paralysi=
s.


        

        
As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new model f=
ocuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with supp=
ort from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)  As the Go=
ogle Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is solely an im=
plementation issue.

We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of th=
e RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not par=
t of that.

Jay




        

          
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--=20
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



        

        
--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

--=20
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


      

      
--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/



    

  

--------------zM0iQBKdNxIEAjeA09HkzZRC--

--------------aNrdqmPE03I71AdUTHcjlaIE
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------aNrdqmPE03I71AdUTHcjlaIE--


--------------hasQveUQjp00KWgKkI8BDKbJ--

--------------Tl3NCBkoLrlaZzp1VKgdUSYa
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF7pkAFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPA
lAf9Fi2+syvjjA4Ub+j46OrfJ0HgCknfQRiptjuWr4CXEvqTH94VzB4omgeuyT9VUYmvkThG8ocy
0uySU1TzOn1z+xbs2LRWcqsOcqYfWA22XIUf6zbH/QtNL6B8eNcns3wBH3YtTO5XUe8W9Pg45uU1
xujN3k2/44stKBOExjSC2c7DLuX5aaUkGqA9+9GVw8IyLTP6lL/MnKv8sS903GPI9DCBbvIp3Rgj
ODtkm6URNhaKF/u0mJZc32f8Y5GYdJxhzY58C06ZTQr6f+hppqG52VQF4yXWJuS3oxVMZ0lmeq8Q
iWpoE4ez9w7DBnTGBhWpeS3f/wgRSzcC/R2aP8Zi4A==
=bqpW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------Tl3NCBkoLrlaZzp1VKgdUSYa--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 00:52:44 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42103A0D5F for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9zlZmmUXLey for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B22CB3A0D50 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 00:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a10c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.161.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HgZQq2pvTz2xL4; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:52:35 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\))
From: Carsten Bormann 
In-Reply-To: <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:52:35 +0200
Cc: Mark Nottingham , Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, "John R. Levine" 
X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 657186755.073555-88ae68fd42101753cd4cd07db81a649b
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <01F03C8C-90D5-4EF0-BE42-368926D34CD6@tzi.org>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:52:43 -0000

>>    *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>=20
> And then we say:
>=20
>>=20
>>    Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted=20

I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is that =
the RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just =
sitting there waiting to be asked (by whom?).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

(*) (pronounce: risky?)=


From nobody Fri Oct 29 01:11:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3599B3A0DA0; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 01:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nf9v2kxNNf7E; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 01:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29B3E3A0D98; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 01:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19T8AogO2488442 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:10:51 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635495052; bh=DoZFJ/I+5EcF8I19Ltp6tvDD2xJfydlcwkHsrcmIgfg=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=PrfrvVSZiwkAKkjlmjx1qRNDEcnRbrQxtMKK5TXd6fyU69AV+KlB69Dozz+a7gMYM e9dAAw4CCs09z2C3bGODfN2d1sAXHQrB+Hy2D7U+3yK5qFO8x6BQU+ioshf4VGSy97 xwl2IeMPAAC+cJkc2lr4osmylnglykMYz1paCgVI=
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:10:49 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Carsten Bormann 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham , "John R. Levine" , Jay Daley 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <01F03C8C-90D5-4EF0-BE42-368926D34CD6@tzi.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <01F03C8C-90D5-4EF0-BE42-368926D34CD6@tzi.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------dIAxBGTaE6Qdj2g9Kmajk7nV"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:11:00 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------dIAxBGTaE6Qdj2g9Kmajk7nV
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0w4auRYtPieJmuQeIM97RjkI";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Carsten Bormann 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham ,
 "John R. Levine" , Jay Daley 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy>
 <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com>
 <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com>
 <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org>
 <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
 <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
 <01F03C8C-90D5-4EF0-BE42-368926D34CD6@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <01F03C8C-90D5-4EF0-BE42-368926D34CD6@tzi.org>

--------------0w4auRYtPieJmuQeIM97RjkI
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Pm6BuzK30dUQKw090yO0bGKD"

--------------Pm6BuzK30dUQKw090yO0bGKD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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=

--------------Pm6BuzK30dUQKw090yO0bGKD
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------Pm6BuzK30dUQKw090yO0bGKD--


--------------0w4auRYtPieJmuQeIM97RjkI--

--------------dIAxBGTaE6Qdj2g9Kmajk7nV
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF7rIkFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejP7
hwf6AmBx/lJ1Ls+hS8euk3+XDAH3BD3tNeclJcvNOaHZel8/hi4+8hjDTXe4qaSWW+Hklqe46X4h
bEAA4MRyZXO66uUsHEshYrS5sS0LS0UvIaENJAhcC9hBBKmF5d2NtrIMX1sJKaUalw7UykEiD5ly
zKVZr/UuWxAWg1E8B9N7mpCsA9t+XOUyUs/g+SDq87FIKhDZo2ryin2F0ATmETZUWqol3qQd0QF3
vZwf0mbeOgTta4d7vuI+96oaNGsaj1nAdeh/UL8SIadk0y2KDwMrceR/yEskjUGXZaAy/OjcNx/y
2kB7FgQtuUm4TjSWP68xTJ/CFVsIUFg/sSXNasNBrg==
=Nvtl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------dIAxBGTaE6Qdj2g9Kmajk7nV--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 03:43:16 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291D83A0E82; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DscLtU2EXUDY; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F0093A095F; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200a0ecf64d5a76d59a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:a0ec:f64d:5a76:d59a]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgPLi-0003SD-Gm; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:43:02 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:43:01 +0200
Cc: Stephen Farrell , Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen , Jay Daley 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635504189;d6ca6dd1;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgPLi-0003SD-Gm
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:43:14 -0000

Hi al,

Reviewing the draft now in detail, I would like to revive this =
discussion about ultimate authority.

First, I think we should just avoid the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D. =
The LLC is responsible for certain decisions, especially when there are =
financial implications, however, the LLC itself is guided by the =
community. So I don=E2=80=99t find the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D =
appropriately here.

Further the full sentence is this:

"Policy implementation is primarily the
   responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the ultimate
   authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF
   LLC).=E2=80=9D

And I=E2=80=99m actually not sure anymore what we mean. This sounds a =
bit like the LLC has a yes/no role for each decision made by the RPC. Is =
that right?=20

I would think that the RPC has a contract with the LLC and would take =
most decision on how to implement a policy without the LLC (except there =
is additional budget involved).=20

So what do we mean here?

Mirja



> On 27. Oct 2021, at 02:28, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 27/10/2021, at 8:18 AM, Stephen Farrell =
 wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 26/10/2021 19:39, Jay Daley wrote:
>>>> On 27/10/2021, at 3:53 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate" =
authority for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok as
>>>>>> they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think it'd be
>>>>>> better if there were a statement somewhere that the LLC only
>>>>>> has that position because of the iasa2 process, i.e., because
>>>>>> that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community currently want.
>>>>> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to
>>>>> see?
>>>> Somewhere, don't care where:
>>>> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various =
administrative actions related to the RFC series and the IETF more
>>>> generally, the LLC holds that position thanks to community
>>>> consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not scoped to consider
>>>> changes to the LLC's authority, such changes are within the gift of
>>>> the IETF community, albeit constituted differently from the RSWG
>>>> (e.g. in some iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>>>> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully you get the
>>>> gist,
>>> You haven=E2=80=99t actually explained why this text is needed.
>>> This is certainly a general qualifier on the authority of the LLC,
>>> but as you've pointed out in your proposed text there isn=E2=80=99t =
anywhere
>>> in this new model where the RSWG/RSAB can override the LLC or set =
new
>>> rules for the LLC so adding this qualifier doesn=E2=80=99t have any =
practical
>>> purpose for this draft.   There are plenty of statements of fact =
from
>>> other RFCs that aren=E2=80=99t in this I-D and arbitrarily adding =
some is in
>>> my view bad policy writing and just creates problems further down
>>> when the source of the facts needs to change.
>>=20
>> Sure, that's arguable, but if one accepts that then there'd
>> be no occurrences of the word "ultimate" in the draft, don't
>> you agree?
>=20
> For me, the word "ultimate" is used within the context of this model =
and it=E2=80=99s use doesn=E2=80=99t imply anything beyond that.  =
However, I=E2=80=99m personally not stuck on that word and "ultimate =
authority" could be replaced with "authority" or "ultimate remit" or ...
>=20
>>=20
>> IMO the draft could give the wrong impression as to which is
>> the dog and which the tail, esp for readers unfamiliar with
>> the history (which'd be most of the few readers), so I think
>> in this case that kind of added text would be a worthwhile
>> addition.
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s a very long stretch and even if it were possible, the =
document already includes "The IETF LLC is ultimately responsible to the =
community via the mechanisms outlined in its charter" as a =
contraindication.
>=20
> Jay
>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>=20
>>> Jay
>>>> Cheers, S.
>>>>> Thanks, Eliot
>>>> 
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 04:47:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E226B3A1145; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 04:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TDYWNBSB74eg; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 04:47:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89CBF3A1143; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 04:47:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19TBl0cA2593522 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:47:00 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635508022; bh=e8KUk47VG66dn7u9BQXnWwveZ+fp4WDb4ryMp3F834o=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=n4LG516WaH8ufAWDjpdAj+6z+xrvhAGjOYP/z87gHe0/Rtiwzpq7JUkyhXG427LAi vJL4sfuyrZ6MZurz3Mw0XhJPAxUzR3uQWHQfgh7E81nihhi15Mm19J2Gd0rLFRqo+5 KVewUodgiTKx+b42hI4fnW+wGFPjwmG+lZEqjtsI=
Message-ID: <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:46:57 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Mirja Kuehlewind , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Stephen Farrell , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen , Jay Daley 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>  <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------pSlz3K4Jx8Swd5eOs6If1NOx"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 11:47:19 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------pSlz3K4Jx8Swd5eOs6If1NOx
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------MQHVcoxVQ04Kbj9ysDGGxNXe";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mirja Kuehlewind ,
 "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Stephen Farrell ,
 Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen ,
 Jay Daley 
Message-ID: <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: Ultimate authority [was: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last
 CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 
 
 
 <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org>
 <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>
 
 <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>
In-Reply-To: <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>

--------------MQHVcoxVQ04Kbj9ysDGGxNXe
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RKI5MtBHzA1KdH2SUYhuopFP"

--------------RKI5MtBHzA1KdH2SUYhuopFP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------RKI5MtBHzA1KdH2SUYhuopFP
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------RKI5MtBHzA1KdH2SUYhuopFP--


--------------MQHVcoxVQ04Kbj9ysDGGxNXe--

--------------pSlz3K4Jx8Swd5eOs6If1NOx
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF73zEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOb
bAf+Mdkb+H3BsZSe/+TTbmzJKdEyEmnCOXwZRlR/D2KTNNqRJOthbL35lM4q2l6RK6eWX5yckjqK
BUX07iXEJa9szbWAToLxxxk0jZ04aeQttPkQvWn2Uia9nL3ubH3ZF3tci0w5Wxcw2zPu+nVmaIRF
ME595ucFXb1/5R+pS+JBnYOwi+oq+tPbzcu6ZhOYUl9vi98emRejDHk3XeWFe44FyT+oSK/xacbl
Hb4KxqYgM+Q2VU4jJBKKTntD1OXlIWdt2dJLsEJtFu8U06c8Gf6mnLYXnrhSymGmDRsQ3+uIHtVA
D4L3fAk8KXRPtX/QgN3FQb+97rUKa/haIpB+vKFuFA==
=XVTs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------pSlz3K4Jx8Swd5eOs6If1NOx--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 05:11:45 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDEC3A1180; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:11:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UllTa75FDJTz; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:11:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47F223A117E; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:11:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200a0ecf64d5a76d59a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:a0ec:f64d:5a76:d59a]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgQjP-0001Mf-27; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:11:35 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:11:34 +0200
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Stephen Farrell , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen , Jay Daley 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <44153AF5-36C5-4CE0-9127-6DE029E33D8E@kuehlewind.net>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>  <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635509499;84520757;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgQjP-0001Mf-27
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:11:44 -0000

Below.

> On 29. Oct 2021, at 13:46, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 29.10.21 12:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Hi al,
>>=20
>> Reviewing the draft now in detail, I would like to revive this =
discussion about ultimate authority.
>>=20
>> First, I think we should just avoid the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D=
. The LLC is responsible for certain decisions, especially when there =
are financial implications, however, the LLC itself is guided by the =
community. So I don=E2=80=99t find the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D =
appropriately here.
>=20
> Does anyone object to the word "ultimate" being removed?
>=20
>=20
>> Further the full sentence is this:
>>=20
>> "Policy implementation is primarily the
>>    responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the =
ultimate
>>    authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company =
(IETF
>>    LLC).=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> And I=E2=80=99m actually not sure anymore what we mean. This sounds a =
bit like the LLC has a yes/no role for each decision made by the RPC. Is =
that right?
>=20
> I don't interpret it as such.  The RPC has to have authority to make =
decisions, and the point of the text is to explain from where that =
authority emanates.

That's also what I would assume but maybe we could actually further =
clarify this?

No, I don=E2=80=99t have a text proposal=E2=80=A6


>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> 


From nobody Fri Oct 29 05:16:28 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C603B3A1186 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0IxvVIjQP4S9 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B69203A1183 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200a0ecf64d5a76d59a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:a0ec:f64d:5a76:d59a]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgQnu-0007ak-Qt; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:16:14 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:16:13 +0200
Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" ,  Michael StJohns 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <3D2A40B7-F327-4630-A42E-36377FEBA727@kuehlewind.net>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>     <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com>    
To: Eric Rescorla 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635509781;eed52aee;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgQnu-0007ak-Qt
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:16:27 -0000

I=E2=80=99m fine with the proposed addition below.

I also would like to note that we have this sentence in the intro:

"Under the auspices of this program, the community
   considered changes that would increase transparency and community
   input regarding the definition of policies for the RFC Series as a
   whole, while at the same time ensuring the continuity of the RFC
   Series, maintaining RFC quality, maintaining timely processing,
   ensuring document accessibility, and clarifying lines of authority
   and responsibility.=E2=80=9D


I think this is a pretty good list. Maybe we should just add a sentence =
that the new RSWG is also expected to follow these goals or something?



> On 28. Oct 2021, at 14:00, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 12:16 AM Eliot Lear  wrote:
> Mike, everyone,
>=20
> First, a point of clarification.  I don't have a strong position.  I =
may=20
> not have couched my words properly, but my only bias really is to fix=20=

> the issues we can now, and not attempt to fix the issues we can't.
>=20
> Christian has put things rather concretely by suggesting that=20
> fundamental parameters of the serious like whether RFCs are immutable=20=

> might be changed.  There may be other aspects.  But I don't think we =
get=20
> through this without either dropping the word heritage or =
significantly=20
> elaborating it.  I think it may not be necessary to use the word.  See=20=

> below.
>=20
> Furthermore, there are enough concerns around this matter, that I =
don't=20
> see how we don't expose the tension at all.  But there is a difference=20=

> between exposing that tension and trying to govern it. I don't think =
we=20
> do any harm to Eric's concerns if we do the former (EKR, you can and=20=

> should correct me if you strongly disagree, but see below), and I have=20=

> very little confidence that we will find any consensus on the latter.
>=20
> With that in mind, we already have the following in Section 3.2.1:
>=20
> >    Because policy issues can be difficult and contentious, RSWG
> >    participants and RSAB members are strongly encouraged to work
> >    together in a spirit of good faith and mutual understanding to
> >    achieve rough consensus (see [RFC7282]).  In particular, RSWG =
members
> >    are encouraged to take RSAB concerns seriously, and RSAB members =
are
> >    encouraged to clearly express their concerns early in the process =
and
> >    to be responsive to the community.  All parties are encouraged to
> >    respect the value of each stream and the long-term health and
> >    viability of the RFC Series.
>=20
> Perhaps it is this last sentence that we might amend:
>=20
> >  All parties are encouraged to, respect the value of each stream and=20=

> > the long-term health and
> >  viability of the RFC Series, and to give consideration for both the=20=

> > factors that have led to the series'  wide acceptance, and those =
that=20
> > require it to evolve to see to its continued success.
>=20
> I would be fine with this text.
>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 07:50:55 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC6E3A12A0; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j0MABTMlYw1z; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F0B33A12ED; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200a0ecf64d5a76d59a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:a0ec:f64d:5a76:d59a]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgTDH-0003zg-Pc; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:50:35 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <44153AF5-36C5-4CE0-9127-6DE029E33D8E@kuehlewind.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:50:34 +0200
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Stephen Farrell 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>  <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <44153AF5-36C5-4CE0-9127-6DE029E33D8E@kuehlewind.net>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635519040;ec2c8e82;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgTDH-0003zg-Pc
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Ultimate authority [was: Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:50:54 -0000

As I know that Eliot would otherwise actually be disappointed, here is a =
proposal:

Later in the document we say "contractually overseen by the IETF LLC=E2=80=
=9D. Maybe that is more clear?

However, while I think that makes the relationship between he RPC and =
LLC more clear, I think it still is not really clear what the =
responsibility of the LLC is.

We say the following

"The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the
   engagement of the RPC.  Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over
   negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has
   responsibility for ensuring that those targets are adhered to.
[=E2=80=A6]
 The IETF LLC is
   ultimately responsible to the community via the mechanisms outlined
   in its charter.=E2=80=9D

So the missing piece for me is how does the LLC set the performance =
targets? Does the later sentence mean that the Llc should consult about =
the performance targets with the community?

Should we add a sentence like this:

"Performance targets are set based on the current publication load as =
well as additional efforts as requested in policies by the RSWG and may =
be consulted with the community.=E2=80=9D

Or is that too much detail?

Mirja



> On 29. Oct 2021, at 14:11, Mirja Kuehlewind  =
wrote:
>=20
> Below.
>=20
>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 13:46, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 29.10.21 12:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> Hi al,
>>>=20
>>> Reviewing the draft now in detail, I would like to revive this =
discussion about ultimate authority.
>>>=20
>>> First, I think we should just avoid the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D=
. The LLC is responsible for certain decisions, especially when there =
are financial implications, however, the LLC itself is guided by the =
community. So I don=E2=80=99t find the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D =
appropriately here.
>>=20
>> Does anyone object to the word "ultimate" being removed?
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Further the full sentence is this:
>>>=20
>>> "Policy implementation is primarily the
>>>   responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the =
ultimate
>>>   authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company =
(IETF
>>>   LLC).=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>>> And I=E2=80=99m actually not sure anymore what we mean. This sounds =
a bit like the LLC has a yes/no role for each decision made by the RPC. =
Is that right?
>>=20
>> I don't interpret it as such.  The RPC has to have authority to make =
decisions, and the point of the text is to explain from where that =
authority emanates.
>=20
> That's also what I would assume but maybe we could actually further =
clarify this?
>=20
> No, I don=E2=80=99t have a text proposal=E2=80=A6
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>> 
>=20
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 07:57:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705E53A12B2; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:57:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCo0pW3jH7ot; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4CBE3A12AE; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mgTJZ-0001ya-JV; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:57:05 -0400
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:57:00 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org
cc: Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Jay Daley , Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>  <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:57:21 -0000

--On Friday, October 29, 2021 13:46 +0200 Eliot Lear
 wrote:

>=20
> On 29.10.21 12:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Hi al,
>>=20
>> Reviewing the draft now in detail, I would like to revive
>> this discussion about ultimate authority.
>>=20
>> First, I think we should just avoid the word "ultimate".
>> The LLC is responsible for certain decisions, especially when
>> there are financial implications, however, the LLC itself is
>> guided by the community. So I don't find the word
>> "ultimate" appropriately here.
>=20
> Does anyone object to the word "ultimate" being removed?

While the optics are unfortunate and I think the odds of abuse
with the current LLC leadership are extremely low, the reality
is that:

(1) The LLC hires the RFCE according to whatever criteria they
work out (consultation with the community is advisory) and can
presumably get rid of them (either by firing or just by making
life miserable enough that they quit, decide not to renew
contracts, etc.)

(2) The LLC selects, manages the contracts of, etc., the RPC
including making decisions about performance reviews (and the
same comments about forcing an RPC contractor out apply). =20

(3) Without LLC agreement to take, or not take, action and/or
supply funding many of the decisions the RSWG/RSAB might make...
well, there is a rude comment about actions performed into the
wind.

Now, as I suggested above, I think the odds of those turning
into real problems are very low.  I also note that any decisions
this group might make to, e.g., restrict the LLC's authority to
intervene in particular ways with its staff or contractors would
be out of this group's scope and probably that of the RSWG/RSAB,
almost certainly out of our competence to draft sufficiently
well, and probably irrelevant if the LLC concluded that those
interventions were necessary to good fiscal (at least)
management.  Remember that the community does not get to
second-guess such decisions and, because they would involve
contractual or personnel matters, doesn't even have an absolute
right to find out about them.

That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me.
Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't
change the reality.  We can, I think, rely on the integrity of
those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC
and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but,
unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is
definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism
other than to the LLC itself. =20

>> And I'm actually not sure anymore what we mean. This sounds
>> a bit like the LLC has a yes/no role for each decision made
>> by the RPC. Is that right?
>=20
> I don't interpret it as such.=C2=A0 The RPC has to have =
authority
> to make decisions, and the point of the text is to explain
> from where that authority emanates.

Right.  That is certainly the intent.  If it were not true, we
would probably see paralysis beyond John Levine's worst
nightmares.  However (again noting that I don't expect this)
assume some future LLC hired a future Executive Director who had
serious, megalomaniac-level control issues.  Could they write an
RPC contract that insisted that every decision made be reviewed
by the LLC?  I don't see any possibility that we could prevent
that (other than being really careful about who gets onto the
LLC Board).

Like Mirja, I don't have any suggestions about text.  Although I
suppose we could put in some words encouraging the LLC to follow
the intent above, those words are presumably unnecessary with
the current administration and probably pointless with that
nightmare hypothetical future regime.

And that is what "ultimate authority" is all about, like it or
not.

     best,
   john


From nobody Fri Oct 29 08:57:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887393A139E; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gTWspRCd8piN; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:57:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AFB43A139B; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:57:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200a0ecf64d5a76d59a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:a0ec:f64d:5a76:d59a]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgUFX-0002iQ-BG; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:56:59 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:56:58 +0200
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear , Brian Rosen 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635523024;743798e3;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgUFX-0002iQ-BG
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Mirja's review [was: Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:57:10 -0000

Hi Eliot, hi Brian, hi all,

I just finished my review and would like to thank Peter for his good =
work. I agree with the other reviews that have been received so far that =
I=E2=80=99m pretty happy with the allover model.

I opened a couple of issues on Github but I think these are =
non-technical or at least minor such that we need to address them but =
they should not change any intention or content or the draft. Here is a =
list for reference:

#112 Minor: RPC Statement of Work
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/112

#111 selection committees (again)
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/111

#110 Where to put the RSCE role definition?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/110

#109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org in =
stone?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109

#108 Remove the word "ultimate"
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/108

#107 What are the updates to other RFCs?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/107

#106 Editorial: Update first sentence of abstract?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/106

I have one more comment/question which is also related to issue #109 =
which I'll sent a separate mail for next. Of course feel free to also =
bring up any of the other issues separately on the mailing list if =
needed!

Mirja




> On 22. Oct 2021, at 10:13, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> Dear Colleagues,
>=20
> This begins the two week last call on =
draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through Friday, =
5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  We will =
address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of =
course on list).
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> [1] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 09:04:52 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA553A13AF for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:04:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o861fslNhkMm for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA7CE3A13A8 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200c1682962a44cbf20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:c168:2962:a44c:bf20]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgUN0-0003cB-Ev; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:04:42 +0200
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
Message-Id: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:04:41 +0200
To: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635523485;34c7afca;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgUN0-0003cB-Ev
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:04:51 -0000

Hi all

I opened this issue:

#109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org in =
stone?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109

To check whether we want to hard-code the rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org =
list into this draft.

However, I have one more question:

The respective section only specifies that calls must be sent to =
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org and may be send elsewhere. I know this point =
touches on the hard question of who is the community but I would =
expected that we would at least try to ensure to consult with those =
communities that we know about.

My assumption was that maybe the stream managers, potentially not =
necessarily for all documents but based on their judgement, would also =
send our calls to their respectively community. So maybe to last-call in =
the IETF, to at least the iab@iab.org list but maybe even to other IAB =
lists, and for the IRTF maybe the IRSG.

Is this something we should write down as well or are my expectations =
wrong?

Mirja


From nobody Fri Oct 29 09:29:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F6C3A1422; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8A9OHbmc7a6; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC5FF3A1420; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200c1682962a44cbf20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:c168:2962:a44c:bf20]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgUkd-0003gU-Vt; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:29:08 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:29:07 +0200
Cc: Carsten Bormann , rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham , Jay Daley 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6AB8E82D-E8F2-4A3D-924B-8C18FDE4EEA2@kuehlewind.net>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <01F03C8C-90D5-4EF0-BE42-368926D34CD6@tzi.org> 
To: Eliot Lear , "John R. Levine" 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635524952;5e221067;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgUkd-0003gU-Vt
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:29:18 -0000

Hi Eliot,

I think your proposed change makes sense.

My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the RPC =
might flag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for support to =
fix it if additional technical expertise is needed, it could still be =
the RSCE that could talk to Google, if needed.

The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC Series=E2=80=9D =
and we did discuss this at some point but maybe we didn=E2=80=99t =
resolve this issue fully? We could re-add that point to the list RSCE =
responsibilities or is that not what is intended?

Regarding the more high level policy question about accessibility, I =
would think this are covered by the RPC responsibilities:

"The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement
   regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the
   dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and
   accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D

However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I think we =
still rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us (the =
community) and the RPC which are the important venues.

Mirja





> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>>    *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>> And then we say:
>>>=20
>>>>    Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted
>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is that =
the RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just =
sitting there waiting to be asked (by whom?).
>=20
> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I could see =
how the text reads that way.  My suggestion would be to make two =
changes:
>=20
> Remove "If requested,"
>=20
> And
>=20
> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to "Matters on =
which the RSCE might provide guidance"
>=20
> ???
>=20
> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>>=20
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>=20
>> (*) (pronounce: risky?)
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 13:08:17 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BDE3A169D; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TQIYg5RqIYrU; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7339B3A169B; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:08:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD704A345A0; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LfdfpFQFOLs; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B91324A34553; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9AF40521-F324-4BC6-B885-02372694944E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:08:02 +1300
Message-Id: <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:08:16 -0000

--Apple-Mail-9AF40521-F324-4BC6-B885-02372694944E
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:

1.  Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is still=
 in post but temporarily unavailable.=20
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104

This proposes adding the following text:

In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended peri=
od then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever recruitme=
nt process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in al=
l aspects during their term of appointment

2.  RPC responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) responsibili=
ties=20
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105

This proposes replacing=20

Announcing and providing on-line access to RFCs.

With

Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrestricted online access both indivi=
dually and in bulk, and by depositing copies in external archives.
Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both individually and in bulk, for R=
FCs.
Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.


(Sent from a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=20
exec-director@ietf.org

> On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,
>=20
> This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]=
  This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comments t=
o this mailing list.  We will address any issues that are raised during our I=
ETF time slot (and of course on list).
>=20
> Brian and Eliot
>=20
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>=20
> 

--Apple-Mail-9AF40521-F324-4BC6-B885-02372694944E
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:

1.  Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent R=
SCE is still in post but temporarily unavailable. 

This proposes adding the following text:

In the case that the RSCE is expected to be=
 unavailable for an extended period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporar=
y RSCE through whatever recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temp=
orary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment<=
/span>

2.  RPC responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publ=
isher) responsibilities 

This proposes repla=
cing 

    =

  • Announcing and providing on-line acces=
s to RFCs.

With

=

  • Publishing catalogs a=
nd catalog entries, both individually and in bulk, for RFCs.
  • Announcing the publication of n=
ew RFCs to all interested parties.

=


(Sent from a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)<=
/div>

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=
 
exec-director@ietf.org

On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch=
> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,

This b=
egins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  T=
his call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comment=
s to this mailing list.  We will address any issues that are raised dur=
ing our IETF time slot (and of course on list).

<=
span>Brian and Eliot

[1] https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>
<=
/body>=

--Apple-Mail-9AF40521-F324-4BC6-B885-02372694944E--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 13:15:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A67C3A16B2 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:15:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id puw45V5QIUnP for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CDE43A16AE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607DE4A345A0; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ifKGUf8K7MAF; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CADE4A34553; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:14:57 +1300
Message-Id: 
References: <6AB8E82D-E8F2-4A3D-924B-8C18FDE4EEA2@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: Eliot Lear , "John R. Levine" , rfced-future@iab.org, Carsten Bormann , Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <6AB8E82D-E8F2-4A3D-924B-8C18FDE4EEA2@kuehlewind.net>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:15:07 -0000

> On 30/10/2021, at 5:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFHi Eliot,
>=20
> I think your proposed change makes sense.
>=20
> My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the RPC might f=
lag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for support to fix it if a=
dditional technical expertise is needed, it could still be the RSCE that cou=
ld talk to Google, if needed.

Yes, whoever is best suited.=20

>=20
> The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC Series=E2=80=9D a=
nd we did discuss this at some point but maybe we didn=E2=80=99t resolve thi=
s issue fully? We could re-add that point to the list RSCE responsibilities o=
r is that not what is intended?

No definitely not, the RSCE is not *the* representative of the series though=
 they may be *a* representative.  We did resolve this - we agreed that all w=
e need to say is that such queries come into the the RPC who dispatch them a=
s appropriate.=20
>=20
> Regarding the more high level policy question about accessibility, I would=
 think this are covered by the RPC responsibilities:
>=20
> "The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement
>   regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the
>   dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and
>   accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D

I=E2=80=99ve tried to address that in a proposed change that explicitly note=
s that =E2=80=98publishing=E2=80=99 includes depositing with external archiv=
es.=20
>=20
> However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I think we stil=
l rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us (the community) an=
d the RPC which are the important venues.

Yes agreed.=20

Jay

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=20
exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Carsten,
>>=20
>> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>>>   *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>>> And then we say:
>>>>=20
>>>>>   Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted
>>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is that th=
e RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just sitting the=
re waiting to be asked (by whom?).
>>=20
>> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I could see ho=
w the text reads that way.  My suggestion would be to make two changes:
>>=20
>> Remove "If requested,"
>>=20
>> And
>>=20
>> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to "Matters on whic=
h the RSCE might provide guidance"
>>=20
>> ???
>>=20
>> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you.
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>=20
>>> (*) (pronounce: risky?)
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 13:21:33 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5558B3A16D1; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d8be-fBpS-i0; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:21:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE74B3A16D3; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:21:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200c1682962a44cbf20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:c168:2962:a44c:bf20]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgYNO-0007On-3e; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:21:22 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:21:21 +0200
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" , Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: 
References: <6AB8E82D-E8F2-4A3D-924B-8C18FDE4EEA2@kuehlewind.net> 
To: Jay Daley 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635538887;fd41c925;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgYNO-0007On-3e
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:21:32 -0000

One comment below.

> On 29. Oct 2021, at 22:14, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 30/10/2021, at 5:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind  =
wrote:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFHi Eliot,
>>=20
>> I think your proposed change makes sense.
>>=20
>> My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the RPC =
might flag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for support to =
fix it if additional technical expertise is needed, it could still be =
the RSCE that could talk to Google, if needed.
>=20
> Yes, whoever is best suited.=20
>=20
>>=20
>> The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC Series=E2=80=9D=
 and we did discuss this at some point but maybe we didn=E2=80=99t =
resolve this issue fully? We could re-add that point to the list RSCE =
responsibilities or is that not what is intended?
>=20
> No definitely not, the RSCE is not *the* representative of the series =
though they may be *a* representative.  We did resolve this - we agreed =
that all we need to say is that such queries come into the the RPC who =
dispatch them as appropriate.

I was not reading or proposing this as *the* representation of the =
series. But rather a one person that might be qualified to go out there =
in the world and talk about the series.

I didn=E2=80=99t remember the conclusion of that discussion and what you =
say in not mentioned in the draft. If that was the conclusion (which it =
fine for me) we should explicitly spell this out in the document.

Mirja



> =20
>>=20
>> Regarding the more high level policy question about accessibility, I =
would think this are covered by the RPC responsibilities:
>>=20
>> "The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement
>>  regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the
>>  dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and
>>  accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve tried to address that in a proposed change that =
explicitly notes that =E2=80=98publishing=E2=80=99 includes depositing =
with external archives.=20
>>=20
>> However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I think we =
still rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us (the =
community) and the RPC which are the important venues.
>=20
> Yes agreed.=20
>=20
> Jay
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director=20
> exec-director@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>=20
>>> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>>>>  *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>>>> And then we say:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted
>>>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is =
that the RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just =
sitting there waiting to be asked (by whom?).
>>>=20
>>> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I could =
see how the text reads that way.  My suggestion would be to make two =
changes:
>>>=20
>>> Remove "If requested,"
>>>=20
>>> And
>>>=20
>>> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to "Matters on =
which the RSCE might provide guidance"
>>>=20
>>> ???
>>>=20
>>> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you.
>>>=20
>>> Eliot
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>>=20
>>>> (*) (pronounce: risky?)
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 13:23:51 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2D83A16D5 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:23:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16_m4Enxtwkn for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6480F3A16D4 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from p200300dee728b200c1682962a44cbf20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:c168:2962:a44c:bf20]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mgYPg-0000SN-RR; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:23:44 +0200
From: Mirja Kuehlewind 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
Message-Id: 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:23:43 +0200
To: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635539029;75019d66;
X-HE-SMSGID: 1mgYPg-0000SN-RR
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:23:51 -0000

Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate =
discussion issue to the list. Here it is:


We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the draft - =
one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE.

For the RPC vendor one we say:

      The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will consist
      of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected by the
      IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers.

For the RSCE one we say:

   The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from
   the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation
   to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.

There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director =
explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers.

Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And if so, =
why?


Mirja



From nobody Fri Oct 29 13:42:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F603A1701; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:42:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJXLONfjgGdi; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F3353A16D8; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FB04A37AA6; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ESodbLt4fx2n; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31877416E7D9; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:42:22 +1300
Message-Id: <934AADD5-567A-4E9D-9E20-E5F58F2BFD07@ietf.org>
References: <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Stephen Farrell , Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
In-Reply-To: <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:42:33 -0000

On 29/10/2021, at 11:43 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFHi al,
>=20
> Reviewing the draft now in detail, I would like to revive this discussion a=
bout ultimate authority.
>=20
> First, I think we should just avoid the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D. T=
he LLC is responsible for certain decisions, especially when there are finan=
cial implications, however, the LLC itself is guided by the community. So I d=
on=E2=80=99t find the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D appropriately here.
>=20
> Further the full sentence is this:
>=20
> "Policy implementation is primarily the
>   responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the ultimate
>   authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF
>   LLC).=E2=80=9D
>=20
> And I=E2=80=99m actually not sure anymore what we mean. This sounds a bit l=
ike the LLC has a yes/no role for each decision made by the RPC. Is that rig=
ht?=20
>=20
> I would think that the RPC has a contract with the LLC and would take most=
 decision on how to implement a policy without the LLC (except there is addi=
tional budget involved).=20
>=20
> So what do we mean here?

My understanding is that the LLC is responsible for ensuring there is the re=
sourcing necessary for policy to be implemented and has the necessary author=
ity delegated to it by the community to do that. =E2=80=9Cpolicy=E2=80=9D he=
re means all administrative BCPs and all editorial RFCs and =E2=80=9Cresourc=
ing=E2=80=9D covers a spectrum of options including budget, staffing, contra=
ctors and more. In this draft, we are requiring the LLC to create a specific=
 function to be responsible for implementing a subset of that policy, the ed=
itorial RFCs, but still within the responsibility and authority of the LLC, n=
ot independent of the LLC.=20

Jay

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=20
exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>> On 27. Oct 2021, at 02:28, Jay Daley  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 27/10/2021, at 8:18 AM, Stephen Farrell  w=
rote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 26/10/2021 19:39, Jay Daley wrote:
>>>>> On 27/10/2021, at 3:53 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>> - In various places, the LLC is described as the "ultimate" authorit=
y for various things. AFAICS, each of those is ok as
>>>>>>> they're all (I think) properly qualified, but I think it'd be
>>>>>>> better if there were a statement somewhere that the LLC only
>>>>>>> has that position because of the iasa2 process, i.e., because
>>>>>>> that's what the (IETF/IRTF) community currently want.
>>>>>> Again, could you take a stab at what sort of text you'd like to
>>>>>> see?
>>>>> Somewhere, don't care where:
>>>>> "While the LLC is the 'ultimate' authority for various administrative a=
ctions related to the RFC series and the IETF more
>>>>> generally, the LLC holds that position thanks to community
>>>>> consensus [ref]. So while the RSWG is not scoped to consider
>>>>> changes to the LLC's authority, such changes are within the gift of
>>>>> the IETF community, albeit constituted differently from the RSWG
>>>>> (e.g. in some iasa2-like WG [ref])."
>>>>> I'm sure that last isn't good enough, but hopefully you get the
>>>>> gist,
>>>> You haven=E2=80=99t actually explained why this text is needed.
>>>> This is certainly a general qualifier on the authority of the LLC,
>>>> but as you've pointed out in your proposed text there isn=E2=80=99t any=
where
>>>> in this new model where the RSWG/RSAB can override the LLC or set new
>>>> rules for the LLC so adding this qualifier doesn=E2=80=99t have any pra=
ctical
>>>> purpose for this draft.   There are plenty of statements of fact from
>>>> other RFCs that aren=E2=80=99t in this I-D and arbitrarily adding some i=
s in
>>>> my view bad policy writing and just creates problems further down
>>>> when the source of the facts needs to change.
>>>=20
>>> Sure, that's arguable, but if one accepts that then there'd
>>> be no occurrences of the word "ultimate" in the draft, don't
>>> you agree?
>>=20
>> For me, the word "ultimate" is used within the context of this model and i=
t=E2=80=99s use doesn=E2=80=99t imply anything beyond that.  However, I=E2=80=
=99m personally not stuck on that word and "ultimate authority" could be rep=
laced with "authority" or "ultimate remit" or ...
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> IMO the draft could give the wrong impression as to which is
>>> the dog and which the tail, esp for readers unfamiliar with
>>> the history (which'd be most of the few readers), so I think
>>> in this case that kind of added text would be a worthwhile
>>> addition.
>>=20
>> That=E2=80=99s a very long stretch and even if it were possible, the docu=
ment already includes "The IETF LLC is ultimately responsible to the communi=
ty via the mechanisms outlined in its charter" as a contraindication.
>>=20
>> Jay
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>>=20
>>>> Jay
>>>>> Cheers, S.
>>>>>> Thanks, Eliot
>>>>> 
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director
>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 13:45:56 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D60A3A170D for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diGlJ93I5xl3 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A65163A170C for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2024A40E7C; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PS7gZOoXx_cP; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 539FA4A37A5F; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:45:45 +1300
Message-Id: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org>
References: 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" , Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:45:55 -0000

> On 30/10/2021, at 9:21 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOne comment below.
>=20
>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 22:14, Jay Daley  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 5:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote=
:
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BFHi Eliot,
>>>=20
>>> I think your proposed change makes sense.
>>>=20
>>> My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the RPC migh=
t flag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for support to fix it i=
f additional technical expertise is needed, it could still be the RSCE that c=
ould talk to Google, if needed.
>>=20
>> Yes, whoever is best suited.=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC Series=E2=80=9D=
 and we did discuss this at some point but maybe we didn=E2=80=99t resolve t=
his issue fully? We could re-add that point to the list RSCE responsibilitie=
s or is that not what is intended?
>>=20
>> No definitely not, the RSCE is not *the* representative of the series tho=
ugh they may be *a* representative.  We did resolve this - we agreed that al=
l we need to say is that such queries come into the the RPC who dispatch the=
m as appropriate.
>=20
> I was not reading or proposing this as *the* representation of the series.=
 But rather a one person that might be qualified to go out there in the worl=
d and talk about the series.

Sorry, I assumed you meant *the* representative if it=E2=80=99s not also add=
ed to the other roles.=20


--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=20
exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
> I didn=E2=80=99t remember the conclusion of that discussion and what you s=
ay in not mentioned in the draft. If that was the conclusion (which it fine f=
or me) we should explicitly spell this out in the document.
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regarding the more high level policy question about accessibility, I wou=
ld think this are covered by the RPC responsibilities:
>>>=20
>>> "The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement
>>> regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the
>>> dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and
>>> accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ve tried to address that in a proposed change that explicitly n=
otes that =E2=80=98publishing=E2=80=99 includes depositing with external arc=
hives.=20
>>>=20
>>> However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I think we st=
ill rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us (the community) a=
nd the RPC which are the important venues.
>>=20
>> Yes agreed.=20
>>=20
>> Jay
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director=20
>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Mirja
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>=20
>>>> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>>>>> *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>>>>> And then we say:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted
>>>>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is that t=
he RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just sitting th=
ere waiting to be asked (by whom?).
>>>>=20
>>>> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I could see h=
ow the text reads that way.  My suggestion would be to make two changes:
>>>>=20
>>>> Remove "If requested,"
>>>>=20
>>>> And
>>>>=20
>>>> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to "Matters on wh=
ich the RSCE might provide guidance"
>>>>=20
>>>> ???
>>>>=20
>>>> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you.
>>>>=20
>>>> Eliot
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (*) (pronounce: risky?)
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 14:33:18 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0430E3A1815 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.887
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cniHIcoDQ3Yc for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 190C03A17F3 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080D84A37A9A; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUpNJ_aaGZWF; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C2D73416E7D9; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 10:33:05 +1300
Message-Id: <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org>
References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" , Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 21:33:17 -0000

Mirja

We currently have:

4.5.  External Representation

=46rom time to time, individuals or organizations external to the IETF and t=
he broader RFC Series community may have questions about the RFC Series.  Su=
ch inquiries should be directed to the rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org email alias=
 and then handled by the appropriate bodies(e.g., RSAB, RPC) or individuals (=
e.g., RSWG chairs, RSCE).
Do you think it also needs something like =E2=80=9CAll other external repres=
entation of the RFC Series should be handled by the appropriate bodies or in=
dividuals=E2=80=9D ?

Jay

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=20
exec-director@ietf.org

> On 30/10/2021, at 9:46 AM, Jay Daley  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
>=20
>> On 30/10/2021, at 9:21 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind  wrote:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFOne comment below.
>>=20
>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 22:14, Jay Daley  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 5:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind  wro=
te:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =EF=BB=BFHi Eliot,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think your proposed change makes sense.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the RPC mi=
ght flag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for support to fix i=
t if additional technical expertise is needed, it could still be the RSCE th=
at could talk to Google, if needed.
>>>=20
>>> Yes, whoever is best suited.=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC Series=E2=80=9D=
 and we did discuss this at some point but maybe we didn=E2=80=99t resolve t=
his issue fully? We could re-add that point to the list RSCE responsibilitie=
s or is that not what is intended?
>>>=20
>>> No definitely not, the RSCE is not *the* representative of the series th=
ough they may be *a* representative.  We did resolve this - we agreed that a=
ll we need to say is that such queries come into the the RPC who dispatch th=
em as appropriate.
>>=20
>> I was not reading or proposing this as *the* representation of the series=
. But rather a one person that might be qualified to go out there in the wor=
ld and talk about the series.
>=20
> Sorry, I assumed you meant *the* representative if it=E2=80=99s not also a=
dded to the other roles.=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director=20
> exec-director@ietf.org
>>=20
>> I didn=E2=80=99t remember the conclusion of that discussion and what you s=
ay in not mentioned in the draft. If that was the conclusion (which it fine f=
or me) we should explicitly spell this out in the document.
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the more high level policy question about accessibility, I wo=
uld think this are covered by the RPC responsibilities:
>>>>=20
>>>> "The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement
>>>> regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the
>>>> dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and
>>>> accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99ve tried to address that in a proposed change that explicitly n=
otes that =E2=80=98publishing=E2=80=99 includes depositing with external arc=
hives.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I think we s=
till rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us (the community)=
 and the RPC which are the important venues.
>>>=20
>>> Yes agreed.=20
>>>=20
>>> Jay
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Jay Daley
>>> IETF Executive Director=20
>>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Mirja
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>>>>>> *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>>>>>> And then we say:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted
>>>>>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is that=
 the RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just sitting t=
here waiting to be asked (by whom?).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I could see=
 how the text reads that way.  My suggestion would be to make two changes:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Remove "If requested,"
>>>>>=20
>>>>> And
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to "Matters on w=
hich the RSCE might provide guidance"
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ???
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> (*) (pronounce: risky?)
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 15:24:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1820E3A1956 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OMQOgsja1Lqj for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 505B43A192C for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409CF428B4E6; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZzuKQc18Vp-6; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.4.33] (c-24-17-19-210.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [24.17.19.210]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 100DC428B4E5; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\))
From: Alice Russo 
In-Reply-To: <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:24:19 -0700
Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <5E0B34B1-886C-416F-BE0A-F7BDDCC87A0E@amsl.com>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
To: Mark Nottingham 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:24:29 -0000

I agree with Mark's comment. It seems there should be a lighter way for =
the RSWG to make a recommendation than publishing an RFC. Perhaps it's  =
as straightforward as stating the recommendation on list.=20

To build on Jay's point about Policy definition (RSWG) vs. Policy =
implementation (RPC) -- in practice, communication will be essential to =
determining the line there and moving things forward. As noted, the RPC =
will seek input from the RSCE and others in the community as needed to =
determine the appropriate implementation plan.=20

Thanks,
Alice

> On Oct 28, 2021, at 9:13 PM, Mark Nottingham  wrote:
>=20
> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.=20
>=20
> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a =
lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be =
by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would =
still retain change control over the output, of course, but it would =
enable things like this to make progress.
>=20
> Does that makes sense?
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley  =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google =
Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various =
coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can =
get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then =
it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, =
to make the changes to fix it? ...
>>>=20
>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC =
Responsibilities",
>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>>=20
>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The =
RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, =
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen =
to extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it =
because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>>=20
>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the =
RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then =
consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>>=20
>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on =
their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address =
them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for =
paralysis.
>>=20
>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new =
model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC =
(with support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6) =
 As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is =
solely an implementation issue.
>>=20
>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities =
of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are =
not part of that.
>>=20
>> Jay
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. =
https://jl.ly
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director
>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


From nobody Fri Oct 29 15:28:40 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A923A194D; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqLioROJR84I; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:28:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA8563A195D; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:28:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id oa4so8118221pjb.2; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:28:33 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=obp3VE87Nrph8oRwr8M61VFPIg8ljUJMvCcCa4yJdpM=; b=IcOQSKB3kc2hpkjW8PbwMCnr3Hc0MMzyufJCYZVCa/F23gOhTxxSuGPJgoDlidpPzL oWyGPEcZWvvfZFj/BAilU0WUPXA3YEXav5GukYGSwvPCJkmsTfkJ2e2O6APu3wftWrDb IfzOE87fk7Lvmciv8U4gEglK250sGTu47zlo2IplGdNCB/U1AqTYl/rGCwUe+QAsxSxU HxQ2NelRj1NC1VeInqS4AgMXdDSW/q//NbTCNLeV3/tSAMx5jARjyngGoLoV2zl+trV7 bCQ7ixEHzwp/4FflvpbrClWIcthtiOKBADcEOlZyVAnOCQCY1qdFhxp2f77SLYBs2GjY FhEw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=obp3VE87Nrph8oRwr8M61VFPIg8ljUJMvCcCa4yJdpM=; b=oWFgPySutzsFE+R0EWtmyqxfIsEQSwmTTSPk16BVXvdIHO8x8FAArBKaqNJWgdGlm5 3UH0SxPnCvazyL+2FHqbR/j4NLXPjsxhY5QCXcHT5xKV71WeLwvMCllEq/OkRLkrWk3s 0xQiSYGPSFVbZzvRFasDUdjtxGI1pk4WPrVAjIOv6VUqh3PY/8UFC+EnrqbhE109+IGT X/wtSBaD27ZIfKRf/4sRNLgjMs+pUEzeubc7TFCKrOmisApDJP09oGoE5hJkguqAyKqI 41r5ROkL42bh00y+HxO8BECkdvhNNBJmMa8JrQfu7KW2NHE4kd2y+5HrXw60qey8hIV0 SEyA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532OZPTc9clvq0pUQXyHVpdK7oti2wby+Wfh0EO4dJKfVwbEtn8/ 10o7UQ49rD44XFJS1bDn0Ys=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyy09p+aPtrbkRGI1ZLteOdTQ1oJhTnngt2jE5XUIDr9sF494qHrtk+l6Kx9VqfV5WezKDjvQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b795:: with SMTP id m21mr14354919pjr.143.1635546511929;  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b8sm1723774pfv.152.2021.10.29.15.28.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jay Daley , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <925215e4-9231-2a1a-3bd7-38b17a4f25f7@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 11:28:27 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:28:39 -0000

Good suggestions IMHO.

Regards
    Brian C

On 30-Oct-21 09:08, Jay Daley wrote:
> I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:
>=20
> 1. =C2=A0Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSC=
E is still in post but temporarily unavailable.
> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104 
>=20
> This proposes adding the following text:
>=20
> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended=20
period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever re=
cruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as the =
RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment
>=20
> 2. =C2=A0RPC responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) re=
sponsibilities
> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105 
>=20
> This proposes replacing
>=20
>   * Announcing and providing on-line access to RFCs.
>=20
>=20
> With
>=20
>   * Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrestricted online access bo=
th individually and in bulk, and by depositing copies in external archive=
s.
>   * Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both individually and in b=
ulk, for RFCs.
>   * Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> (Sent from a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)
>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
>> On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,
>>
>> This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05=
=2E[1]=C2=A0 This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.=C2=A0 Please =
send your comments to this mailing list.=C2=A0 We will address any issues=20
that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on list).
>>
>> Brian and Eliot
>>
>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-mode=
l
>>
>> 
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 15:34:08 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E923A1966; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:34:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zr3811gbe9Bz; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A103A1965; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id x7so5463886pfh.7; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3988MOFMxQLButTTyZTW1RdubHcHLqxa7+OTFyv46Qc=; b=TKxhdMvzGgWxFL2eWgtkEFgfD05vHd+i/qdXXS4VVMf1GSk//faSpCpz4Sw4zoZTSS 3mOY9uHhPWdG5SSdtaEWjkr2aaIv2jm5VavFrbwiL9wylqf/WaBIg5xEtrncKuHosLyT 65PVHNs/wGYjVzVOc8+QIsYDR2STE2QJs0/SYIlzVptrFB3oItKe51Wx7MhrGx9gtMJs Nqh1lTTE1MUpSSTYqhG0BLWkiDCXtwW4FUPZaiDPBi1fhCiUQO5OFAtfBPmLAschTXr3 MRAZoaKSsePKS5HVxRTyI1545tJSCT11jhE4bfqXBnYVjCq8istve3MMOWi6SwgiIHEv a6+g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3988MOFMxQLButTTyZTW1RdubHcHLqxa7+OTFyv46Qc=; b=bQCqCoMRS0JWFKTMlYgPnTI/GF4r6fUfB6d+NQXMpn7PmSgqtE5s5453Gs3YOYEyP8 kKKDrRpNfPnjx+yeKwP7vd7HPGFAqPkf4kAzaVVIRvuqJ8MbkufyyMaHyn8rB7yRQnEp b42i1c/nBqi9NNo5KN15Uebrdst2P4MnJdU41uQ4V9U6Aqx2ePhdNSVRSjiVseRgWTQP xT1Km4Dr8AC64rP8FPDt0fTtx4OQ5H6FholTrNv5kq2zVyQI4KXUlkVRfoAD9eetsZTQ q765cn5yCnZ4bq6eSyV4B6WgLTQZRCw/X9tBl7qH8jmsHHNl9r3ttdFHA2+ZR0EBo0ZI Nt5A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533T6itQICj6i8valq81WsotosRP5dKO+Lobm/7zDiVp36yGdubz 4EYnQqbZeSOzKczmh3K1wKKe6a1Tnoulxg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFP6XcwjUNSxMMys32C0illf7JFO7XUPDMiLz9CgVf5wBj1pbtlP7TAUtX2pO7EUXJP6wRjA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1955:b0:47c:1d32:84de with SMTP id s21-20020a056a00195500b0047c1d3284demr13499803pfk.70.1635546842280;  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a10sm6336209pgw.25.2021.10.29.15.33.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Cc: Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Jay Daley , Stephen Farrell 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>    <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie>  <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <3ed22069-7a5e-ab80-965d-719ab337be0e@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 11:33:57 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021]
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:34:07 -0000

On 30-Oct-21 00:46, Eliot Lear wrote:
>=20
> On 29.10.21 12:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Hi al,
>>
>> Reviewing the draft now in detail, I would like to revive this discuss=
ion about ultimate authority.
>>
>> First, I think we should just avoid the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D=
=2E The LLC is responsible for certain decisions, especially when there a=
re financial implications, however, the LLC itself is guided by the commu=
nity. So I don=E2=80=99t find the word =E2=80=9Cultimate=E2=80=9D appropr=
iately here.
>=20
> Does anyone object to the word "ultimate" being removed?

No objection, and I think that is necessary and sufficient. The LLC is al=
ready bound to consult with the community.

    Brian

>=20
>=20
>> Further the full sentence is this:
>>
>> "Policy implementation is primarily the
>>      responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC), under the ulti=
mate
>>      authority of the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (I=
ETF
>>      LLC).=E2=80=9D
>>
>> And I=E2=80=99m actually not sure anymore what we mean. This sounds a =
bit like the LLC has a yes/no role for each decision made by the RPC. Is =
that right?
>=20
> I don't interpret it as such.=C2=A0 The RPC has to have authority to ma=
ke
> decisions, and the point of the text is to explain from where that
> authority emanates.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 15:40:34 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC5D3A1972 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q5sbeRxv6T_g for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 751903A1971 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id v65so14359206ioe.5 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vpw1UnoVCJWBiF0WBFTSfpm3f0XEZJMPNWFUzFh0w/Y=; b=JQfXFrJa7F69TwstYLFuLESG+ggxdYc6CqNeocUBjLz0Mz2uThPtcfKhpJfBepRYos d2OxSD1ub635JQYBvxxFiivunqE2AG8v9yRApNpoWrJ24DUNoLmAuX45xZvc9xOk9FTY /jfk0jASDdgv5gQWKF5cvr2arVJhFKTwPyz6cYO1NGGJauRyQ0e8hsiuBzkvRGKsCyTZ BMz/LauycU8QJfshm2knkzVp1Q9hZZfd5T0G+Szmt7LAZ/+GG2L/4wM2Jrpn61MQl1wY ALGAh7jMOc80sUR9ySVzPnkFPKQ6hGvsLp+fc1RpI1kzgQLiIONybuT1dbdamSl4gUzT ykMA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vpw1UnoVCJWBiF0WBFTSfpm3f0XEZJMPNWFUzFh0w/Y=; b=ja/d0886TIhohDeDz09zeGZEtFcFUCDisquNRdONgE28aWRDi7leTXecedh2GzCA/T 7BvqwxYSIGWnea/zZNJ5cvBaX1VQwMR9B7rwRToqCt2GE71do9uuyaDknXcN1U7uoduN 9wAAWTsf2Wz0NPszjelE55v2TV2l61rBYIdBwsx8t5+MKpFRUgJMpTVbPdRTxpvxWYKG PjP1ZIAKvYV3RMdVzlYFHWTEXR0l7gdCxTqSvrV6TUzwrOmpS0sshc2QNmG15pc2BHhS d2/j/ahneGIMj1OJbzuFRyEzHvj7tlxVFWoUums4tdO4jb3QZGOR45yUrl9/v/WOOZBR 6Xng==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530VlvPWLtGt0Cgg16Es90AAc63TDpwXRZ0Ice44yjXYaobwRs96 oarqHFZUJY1j83v9N/KV1pvF03mAk4X+Hq1WrWzOwg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqTfk03BjtQKnIpEnv19Rded5OgSP3T5KSmEvKK4Oo9zG8s1ljhgIH7PSfv2R5+JoQPEIu7atjSQraDfwDqR4=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8b16:: with SMTP id n22mr5483472iod.0.1635547224225; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:40:24 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:39:47 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org,  Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000050532005cf858359"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:40:33 -0000

--00000000000050532005cf858359
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jay Daley  wrote:

> I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:
>
> 1.  Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is
> still in post but temporarily unavailable.
> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104
>
> This proposes adding the following text:
>
> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended
> period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever
> recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as th=
e
> RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment
>
> 2.  RPC responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher)
> responsibilities
> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105
>
> This proposes replacing
>
>
>    - Announcing and providing on-line access to RFCs.
>
>
> With
>
>
>    - Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrestricted online access
>    both individually and in bulk, and by depositing copies in external
>    archives.
>
>
>    - Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both individually and in
>    bulk, for RFCs.
>
>
I wonder if these are too concrete, actually. Right now the RPC is operated
by AMS who also operates the various IETF Web properties, but in the future
one might imagine that the IETF LLC would give the Web contract to someone
else, in which case one might imagine that they should also operated
rfc-editor.org and the RPC should just deliver the completed RFCs to them
to publish. After all, the skill of editing the documents is very different
from the skill of publishing them. It would be good to leave the LLC this
option, no?

-Ekr





>    - Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.
>
>
>
> (Sent from a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>
> On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,
>
> This begins the two week last call on
> draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through Friday, =
5
> Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  We will addre=
ss
> any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on
> list).
>
> Brian and Eliot
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>
> 
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--00000000000050532005cf858359
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jay D=
aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:

1.=C2=A0 =
Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is still in=
 post but temporarily unavailable.=C2=A0
This proposes adding the following text:

<=
div>In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended p=
eriod then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever recru=
itment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE =
in all aspects during their term of appointment

2.=C2=A0 RPC =
responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) responsibilities=C2=
=A0

This proposes replacing=
=C2=A0

  • Announcing a=
nd providing on-line access to RFCs.

Wit=
h

  • Publishing RFCs b=
y providing free and unrestricted online access both individually and in bu=
lk, and by depositing copies in external archives.
  • Publishing catalog=
s and catalog entries, both individually and in bulk, for RFCs.

I wonder if these are too concre=
te, actually. Right now the RPC is operated by AMS who also operates the va=
rious IETF Web properties, but in the future one might imagine that the IET=
F LLC would give the Web contract to someone else, in which case one might =
imagine that they should also operated rf=
c-editor.org and the RPC should just deliver the completed RFCs to them=
 to publish. After all, the skill of editing the documents is very differen=
t from the skill of publishing them. It would be good to leave the LLC this=
 option, no?

-Ekr



 
  • Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.


(Sent from a de=
vice that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)

--=C2=A0<=
/div>Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=C2=A0

On 22/10/2021, at 9:1=
4 PM, Eliot Lear <lear=
@lear.ch> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,
This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model=
-05.[1]=C2=A0 This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.=C2=A0 Please s=
end your comments to this mailing list.=C2=A0 We will address any issues th=
at are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on list).
=

Brian and Eliot

[1]=
 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfc=
efdp-rfced-model

<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46=
D9D27A33.asc>
-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--00000000000050532005cf858359--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 15:43:37 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3024E3A1975 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2HjSEYzQPFR for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E94F3A1974 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id in13so5771513pjb.1 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CIEBP35cpHq8uiehPjQqDgrdfZEr5WLLxiCyGdO/wgw=; b=pK/+hpRbEBe8oMvEZn5uRoytZwaPLZMVT5A9ZFiubscpTe15shqa37nglDUDdxgtFf 4YNZch8f621H9cGfjpxNtY2RK1n+egA/ndswVKhCSfwo2r2rbxRmsJ4FcSoxdvd0qFPu F1PIE98pAAyAr9e78RQASAi1owvLxojZnzOShTE+pq3X9Kr0PGUTRaUOGME8LlTwQlTh LwKOMI9ILD40dENCn9CiA4/ebCl9c+lwQH6F/mSDYWelVQYenSRafn7Igl6sIXm1f4/V 3z7JtYZVnE4BB1+8RnWZBOthVHQigXkY4RtNph/iGlKqynRt6dKGcYzubXi9wZkvq7p9 gfnw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=CIEBP35cpHq8uiehPjQqDgrdfZEr5WLLxiCyGdO/wgw=; b=D4r5rCbAhL+xMEueOBF9/UjAgpjodzaKFo+lroIIi0KdaZdnDfalGT21sduPSYWyDA MlQ35lSjGM/a85sTcZf3FF08IiOvwpsEsf1il5I744aUQczOs3h2TStksIfOGEQcoEDL rny048UNV5lzfzh7TbxarO8rdAGn/t/rN/YWyHM49OsYXzWgNSpNPcaXQvaJ0ONFjOTw 4vbhM18XZucgZsKii3XgL4aS4gLtI3axdeTL1AIByq7xaYy8ySXNvpW6hmqJG0u3gdK3 tgY6w4bE+Kb20cmbzW19423RIJuf3xfNn7bDojSMqQp1pWHYS0PIQZsB7uVcshvax97F jwkQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530bjJsi8UTGtua01bdyWRDiRax6uKqyPkKrLGrIxTJ31ni6zvEu eeY6vnjAiyevuzTU7pLJimcBZU65k0fWbQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6dk3eT/iRxmXmUMHhhBM5QG79Zh2hb+13ARiGdjZ4/7pVzSa8dmhAGeOo3cdviJdaVfX9OQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2355:: with SMTP id ms21mr13802605pjb.140.1635547410755;  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s2sm7353731pfe.215.2021.10.29.15.43.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org
References: 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 11:43:27 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments?
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:43:36 -0000

On 30-Oct-21 05:04, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> I opened this issue:
> 
> #109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org in stone?
> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109

OLD:
Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list.

NEW:
Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list or its equivalent.

> To check whether we want to hard-code the rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org list into this draft.
> 
> However, I have one more question:
> 
> The respective section only specifies that calls must be sent to rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org and may be send elsewhere. I know this point touches on the hard question of who is the community but I would expected that we would at least try to ensure to consult with those communities that we know about.
> 
> My assumption was that maybe the stream managers, potentially not necessarily for all documents but based on their judgement, would also send our calls to their respectively community. So maybe to last-call in the IETF, to at least the iab@iab.org list but maybe even to other IAB lists, and for the IRTF maybe the IRSG.
> 
> Is this something we should write down as well or are my expectations wrong?

I wouldn't write down the details because those details may change in future. Just make it clear that we want wide distribution. Maybe just

OLD:
The RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities...

NEW:
The RSAB and RSWG should also send notices widely to other communities...

    Brian


From nobody Fri Oct 29 15:49:21 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282703A19AB for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xADCjvuwW2tc for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 564803A1988 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 75so11200349pga.3 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OcqwS2mkLY+2OJ6oKQSmnPdH1BGmBsEtONG/xslvAYI=; b=Qr23ZrrwFM+I4juTvq0Dk99XKStpkRizkFZB2VqEWFJPpdhe7wsC2FlV9NE5+JYYjb uEacY80Jcz3Y3aksu2m49NlwPBJ1ITfmOd4ptcGMsjdeO9+bOxr+8VTXZU3CB5nYK9Ex HAeBqoBzYG/aN28O8Tk8PAzRFE6N28//S3h1c+ZpzWH/BNOy8SKc0l7mRoryTnSRo/o4 5CFgnYIUdKDQ0sSRih60/DawK48kbfYZpYzOFR0pqOieaXiUYOwMQUlxW5IvFdCFVh9f gFeJ+c5YrXfBrTbkGkPfysum47X+CpG6GQ+UnFm/YWVs8L7o9umu9BBLccufVE1MRFtY b+cQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OcqwS2mkLY+2OJ6oKQSmnPdH1BGmBsEtONG/xslvAYI=; b=mL0tOIkDs9NfGJCqpl5F3zdNBPhQjr7gRXnzjhp+p3Rv1et47fvMrdC5gKDx2hnZQx CCOTT9NEfqmvyXIvhidvp0MS1B4vbAd9HQgrmoU2pfukisdUWjke8k+GkJnZF+iv9ZJs reQt9/Aimu1iHBtzPZ8sVd29qh1FQfHyzsldOcmkwUuSI+NAmyU4Aib0U6PLaTApoz/p EH71urxeezjvv3FzsDKQX/v0Xlanx+v9AGgx7pvvBpN1ycxmEi/X+YseVqb+4H/PfMLN yXwmEArtjBtfHay98NNbB4HrS4LxXH2KNeCyUHqyKmKj6hzQpg3uidrUo48qWSn0RaEY kLLw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307Hhc7YPFMwyxHwz3D+ERQJtHsJ8VrLKOgsy9sL2SYzeDNAfu0 v0SiDtdaq/AStvI1LAZkpP5xpyYkS3KwhA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywDOve9uv0ZvKV6vrEZM/AnD8jSbtUIsqkqrI5vXw/cnjYlYIvXLVv1bfObErBrxVTki8gcg==
X-Received: by 2002:a62:ed01:0:b0:44d:6aa6:30eb with SMTP id u1-20020a62ed01000000b0044d6aa630ebmr13487896pfh.53.1635547748851;  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:49:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s28sm6473346pgo.86.2021.10.29.15.49.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:49:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org
References: 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: 
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 11:49:05 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:49:20 -0000

On 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate discussion issue to the list. Here it is:
> 
> 
> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the draft - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE.
> 
> For the RPC vendor one we say:
> 
>        The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will consist
>        of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected by the
>        IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers.
> 
> For the RSCE one we say:
> 
>     The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from
>     the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation
>     to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.
> 
> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers.
> 
> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And if so, why?

I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might comment, but
it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC that
forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each commitee.

The other difference is significant. I think having the stream managers in
the loop is essential for the RPC case, and having the community in general
in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE.

    Brian


From nobody Fri Oct 29 16:40:15 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A87B3A19A3; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w37yvQzA3CSX; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D146E3A133E; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0B64A40EF6; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4TAF89xAraTF; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9CE164157F11; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-80FDF68A-D559-4EFF-AD15-354136AD45A2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 12:40:03 +1300
Message-Id: 
References: 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen , Internet Architecture Board , Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: 
To: Eric Rescorla 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 23:40:15 -0000

--Apple-Mail-80FDF68A-D559-4EFF-AD15-354136AD45A2
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



> On 30/10/2021, at 11:40 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
>=20
>=20
>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jay Daley  wrote:=

>> I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:
>>=20
>> 1.  Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is st=
ill in post but temporarily unavailable.=20
>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104
>>=20
>> This proposes adding the following text:
>>=20
>> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended p=
eriod then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever recrui=
tment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in=
 all aspects during their term of appointment
>>=20
>> 2.  RPC responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) responsib=
ilities=20
>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105
>>=20
>> This proposes replacing=20
>>=20
>> Announcing and providing on-line access to RFCs.
>>=20
>> With
>>=20
>> Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrestricted online access both ind=
ividually and in bulk, and by depositing copies in external archives.
>> Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both individually and in bulk, f=
or RFCs.
>=20
> I wonder if these are too concrete, actually. Right now the RPC is operate=
d by AMS who also operates the various IETF Web properties, but in the futur=
e one might imagine that the IETF LLC would give the Web contract to someone=
 else, in which case one might imagine that they should also operated rfc-ed=
itor.org and the RPC should just deliver the completed RFCs to them to publi=
sh. After all, the skill of editing the documents is very different from the=
 skill of publishing them. It would be good to leave the LLC this option, no=
?

Yes.  I had intended it to refer to the act of putting files onto the server=
 in various formats and arrangements, not the technical side but conflated t=
he two.=20

How about:

* Publishing RFCs, which includes:
 - depositing copies on the RFC Editor site both individually and in collect=
ions=20
 - depositing copies with external archives=20
 - creating catalogs and catalog entries
 - announcing the publication to all interested parties

Jay

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=20
exec-director@ietf.org
>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.
>>=20
>>=20
>> (Sent from a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director=20
>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>=20
>>>> On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,
>>>=20
>>> This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[=
1]  This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comment=
s to this mailing list.  We will address any issues that are raised during o=
ur IETF time slot (and of course on list).
>>>=20
>>> Brian and Eliot
>>>=20
>>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>>>=20
>>> 
>> --=20
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

--Apple-Mail-80FDF68A-D559-4EFF-AD15-354136AD45A2
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 30/10/2021, at 11:40 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:=


=EF=BB=
=BF


On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jay D=
aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

In the cas=
e that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended period then th=
e IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever recruitment process=
 it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all aspects d=
uring their term of appointment

2.  RPC responsibilities m=
issing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) responsibilities 

This proposes replacing 

    Announcing and providing on-line acces=
s to RFCs.

With

=

  • Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrestric=
ted online access both individually and in bulk, and by depositing copies in=
 external archives.
  • Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both individua=
lly and in bulk, for RFCs.

=

I wonder if these are too concrete, actually. Right now the RPC is oper=
ated by AMS who also operates the various IETF Web properties, but in the fu=
ture one might imagine that the IETF LLC would give the Web contract to some=
one else, in which case one might imagine that they should also operated rfc-editor.org and the RPC should just del=
iver the completed RFCs to them to publish. After all, the skill of editing t=
he documents is very different from the skill of publishing them. It would b=
e good to leave the LLC this option, no?

Yes.  I had intended it to refer to the act of putting files o=
nto the server in various formats and arrangements, not the technical side b=
ut conflated the two. 

How about:
* Publishing RFCs, which includes:
 - depositing=
 copies on the RFC Editor site both individually and in collections 
 - depositing copies with external archives 
&nb=
sp;- creating catalogs and catalog entries
 - announcing the p=
ublication to all interested parties

Jay

<=
div>-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director 
exec=
-director@ietf.org

-Ekr



 
  • Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested part=
ies.


(Sent from=
 a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)

--&nb=
sp;
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director 

On 22/10/2021, at 9:=
14 PM, Eliot Lear <lear=
@lear.ch> wrote:

=

=EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,

=
This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05=
.[1]  This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send y=
our comments to this mailing list.  We will address any issues that are=
 raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on list).
<=
/span>
Brian and Eliot

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced=
-model

<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.as=
c>
-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.o=
rg

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future=




-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-fu=
ture@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futu=
re
=

--Apple-Mail-80FDF68A-D559-4EFF-AD15-354136AD45A2--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 16:45:08 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA303A19F3 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2GsIbrrtg6u for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3765A3A19F1 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1027B4A40EF6; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_k9tyg1m2VI; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A60134A40EF5; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Jay Daley 
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 12:44:57 +1300
Message-Id: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org>
References: 
Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org
In-Reply-To: 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 23:45:07 -0000

> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate discuss=
ion issue to the list. Here it is:
>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the draft - on=
e for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE.
>> For the RPC vendor one we say:
>>       The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will consist
>>       of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected by the
>>       IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers.
>> For the RSCE one we say:
>>    The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from
>>    the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation
>>    to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.
>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director explicitl=
y as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers.
>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And if so, w=
hy?
>=20
> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might comment, b=
ut
> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC that
> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each commitee.

Yes either or both, no preference.=20
>=20
> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream managers in=

> the loop is essential for the RPC case,

I agree.=20

> and having the community in general
> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE.

My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee who unders=
tand the role being appointed to, not people chosen because they are represe=
ntatives of one group or another.=20

Jay

>=20
>   Brian
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=20


From nobody Fri Oct 29 16:47:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554A83A19F8 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:47:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m-o-UF-k0Od2 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 366463A19F5 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id h81so5687465iof.6 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lTDciWgNTL4jy52GSuMuYJrEUC3+wORCrueYvwGZ1UU=; b=Gw2r+NeCBbCY4pkpW/k5G4Ta5P2XQSOIdrQo+HIesEyIRzgOVwHd5UrTVXJ2RmwdIy oVBFhqrzr3UkGKLKqpmhhuqLWIGjE6pbiT6G9CLubiIblDhkjB/z3q5rYbwDdY9oP9U8 UK1OWZJLAOU60xw5jknDHnHkznqDNJ4JtN68nTKt33J1VMDeWADX4/5XjuYN8AFir16E N4I1IonLWDxVGVR7XV0yYUsYS+bsTur8kx0WnbDKkA91jRfgMPq+6Nx2yAHBA0n2QjjE 4OUrrLKXk9Q+wYo49XOFS9xwECA5wLZSomAfev6ocBtbrhry+ATERC7Ag/aCIK9pHt/8 27nw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lTDciWgNTL4jy52GSuMuYJrEUC3+wORCrueYvwGZ1UU=; b=oIL4zcQkCfH4kyPk0hKoWdqvSxWptn/rWjBtJiU3qGxNplT0/lti1TOS6RAYRuHQ93 OQdRewl/4xikNFvCwBve8xah5KENXOLKYKBmXPcDmK01W8Uu7eaYbNc8U4GqVwui84Qs r42gYPRFwlR8taCWgIMSS7Ds+z3DglOQLN8dOv4bfMrDQwNPOi5j5gzl2GGAhSz2Wz9s u87U8Sf3kchYbGzBXuOqfxJLpQU5AJbJneQR/+nswC5LQ7Eq4f6DViE98WDTCEdxOqSs 3O+Y5qQi1sl4CORz1ie1PnEkSqfFBfxI3GYWCChZe5ZkO6AFewIVyDKfdsg3OUXGXu2/ PwwA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5329QUBDqRXOaKx5bB7VHF1rSpWqwFSUdaTwMgElGE6mcJC+Jxok Ia0pNQ34W6uPO8xFKHXXCVIKBX7GDJhJPSP48MwUnQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhJ8eqHHKSPhd65FKx+x2AmFkoXl7z9so15LUumS2IlDJnfKjhOwxVeY5oIIAZ4qE8CXuXxfRV2Ve8Czb659M=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6e04:: with SMTP id d4mr10055064ioh.213.1635551218109;  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References:  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:46:21 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Brian Rosen ,  Internet Architecture Board , Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e24c305cf867141"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 23:47:06 -0000

--0000000000005e24c305cf867141
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

SGTM

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 4:40 PM Jay Daley  wrote:

>
>
> On 30/10/2021, at 11:40 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jay Daley  wrote:
>
>> I=E2=80=99ve added two issues:
>>
>> 1.  Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is
>> still in post but temporarily unavailable.
>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104
>>
>> This proposes adding the following text:
>>
>> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended
>> period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever
>> recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as t=
he
>> RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment
>>
>> 2.  RPC responsibilities missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher)
>> responsibilities
>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105
>>
>> This proposes replacing
>>
>>
>>    - Announcing and providing on-line access to RFCs.
>>
>>
>> With
>>
>>
>>    - Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrestricted online access
>>    both individually and in bulk, and by depositing copies in external
>>    archives.
>>
>>
>>    - Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both individually and in
>>    bulk, for RFCs.
>>
>>
> I wonder if these are too concrete, actually. Right now the RPC is
> operated by AMS who also operates the various IETF Web properties, but in
> the future one might imagine that the IETF LLC would give the Web contrac=
t
> to someone else, in which case one might imagine that they should also
> operated rfc-editor.org and the RPC should just deliver the completed
> RFCs to them to publish. After all, the skill of editing the documents is
> very different from the skill of publishing them. It would be good to lea=
ve
> the LLC this option, no?
>
>
> Yes.  I had intended it to refer to the act of putting files onto the
> server in various formats and arrangements, not the technical side but
> conflated the two.
>
> How about:
>
> * Publishing RFCs, which includes:
>  - depositing copies on the RFC Editor site both individually and in
> collections
>  - depositing copies with external archives
>  - creating catalogs and catalog entries
>  - announcing the publication to all interested parties
>
> Jay
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>>    - Announcing the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.
>>
>>
>>
>> (Sent from a device that doesn=E2=80=99t do plain text)
>>
>> --
>> Jay Daley
>> IETF Executive Director
>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>
>> On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,
>>
>> This begins the two week last call on
>> draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through Friday,=
 5
>> Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  We will addr=
ess
>> any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on
>> list).
>>
>> Brian and Eliot
>>
>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>>
>> 
>>
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
>

--0000000000005e24c305cf867141
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


SGTM

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 4:40 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:=



On 30/10/2021, at 11:=
40 AM, Eric Rescorla <=
ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

=

On Fri=
, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
I=E2=80=99=
ve added two issues:

1.=C2=A0 Allow for a temporary RSCE=
 appointment while the permanent RSCE is still in post but temporarily unav=
ailable.=C2=A0

This proposes=
 adding the following text:

In the case that the RSC=
E is expected to be unavailable for an extended period then the IETF LLC ma=
y appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever recruitment process it consider=
s appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as the RSCE in all aspects during thei=
r term of appointment

2.=C2=A0 RPC responsibilities missing a=
 couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) responsibilities=C2=A0
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105<=
/div>

This proposes replacing=C2=A0

=

    =

  • Announcing and providing on-line access=
 to RFCs.

With

=

  • Publishing RFCs by providing free and unrest=
ricted online access both individually and in bulk, and by depositing copie=
s in external archives.
  • Publishing catalogs and catalog entries, both=
 individually and in bulk, for RFCs.

I wonder if these are too concrete, actually. Right now the=
 RPC is operated by AMS who also operates the various IETF Web properties, =
but in the future one might imagine that the IETF LLC would give the Web co=
ntract to someone else, in which case one might imagine that they should al=
so operated rfc-editor.=
org and the RPC should just deliver the completed RFCs to them to publi=
sh. After all, the skill of editing the documents is very different from th=
e skill of publishing them. It would be good to leave the LLC this option, =
no?

Yes.=C2=A0 I had intended =
it to refer to the act of putting files onto the server in various formats =
and arrangements, not the technical side but conflated the two.=C2=A0
=


How about:

* Publishing RFCs, =
which includes:
=C2=A0- depositing copies on the RFC Editor site =
both individually and in collections=C2=A0
=C2=A0- depositing cop=
ies with external archives=C2=A0
=C2=A0- creating catalogs and ca=
talog entries
=C2=A0- announcing the publication to all intereste=
d parties

Jay

--=C2=A0
Jay Dale=
y
IETF Executive Director=C2=A0
=


-Ekr



=

 
  • Announcing =
the publication of new RFCs to all interested parties.
=


(Sent from a device that doesn=E2=
=80=99t do plain text)

--=C2=A0
Jay DaleyIETF Executive Director=C2=A0

On 22/10/2021, at 9:14 PM, Eliot Lear &=
lt;lear@lear.ch> w=
rote:

=
=EF=BB=BFDear Colleagues,

This begin=
s the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]=C2=A0 This=
 call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.=C2=A0 Please send your comments =
to this mailing list.=C2=A0 We will address any issues that are raised duri=
ng our IETF time slot (and of course on list).

<=
span>Brian and Eliot

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model

<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>
-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org=

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future=



--0000000000005e24c305cf867141--


From nobody Fri Oct 29 18:02:29 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD263A1A48 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.429
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PPBtZTCO4ovI for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 311CA3A1A4A for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id l1so4276260pfu.5 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KwsRsS/fq1lmHAWNZOSaMd9hPy9v+tCeui5qwOI0xCA=; b=SCSfWBbtaCeazPiCfwbpXiYg+f/J6lqFqh7xWVud7s9QnwPTKuzXzNThBZMKHjtLef exWmzCGeNxOhzXa8smq/tz/kyvI3ss+nTrp1l53OSPn2l5G2VuBgxypbJLm4VUpr2wfm p3tXQIBzJEz8HyeI4iEbq4TYtLM0CT/9dH74MrmXhlyPOdgv1UDytOk0v62AJwaw7+tK HR47PS5QCTE6wEDdNSOgY19G+saFZJfBLswGIfKx6vJZMHxphlWSwzKw895qeuKjJ9BJ fL6OF6Kc6hU4c4Gzl51za+2y1oufLTsD6s4Raky/okIctbM66n8h7DYmrhkFD8gbnSrG M4iw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KwsRsS/fq1lmHAWNZOSaMd9hPy9v+tCeui5qwOI0xCA=; b=2KyVAs/LNssvWdgtrp6QjpcXlNGo9cAZvhJ0aq5U9MspiSA85oxVDIcof6IkusUzpj /W1n9AlagwkaKwSa7OpTTJCn6lgpJftR1AEyc/E2OffT/IA8cw4Ci4x/TPhIji2Ol7Go /yf13sm0JVvcKSK0aWlmbhmA9cSa5FF2+Ykjj0OUhNSmHT4KzZafzqCNfFnQw8n5cVRf Bbi5Iv+vndK6z1u6Wa6mnQWqc/QJh+Qw2U/Da3ocR44c0rhVNUU3BZNOXnDQZYkLjiz+ YNeXZIKD3Me5QWYD1rBz1TQbsTFF1sFkmGxwg/i3O1JoqeoWAxbqQR5CezSwBy2ET8uw 0kkg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532XomyTU6qhWMNRcp5+/Ix1j/aUCaSA4u4yLABNlnEuXM4a6QeM ftBqyyCYF06o0lb6yxB0AACO4uv37Z2+5w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwC5nb8MYzqPztU5dQ6idzd46s8rIrBcjS8a6n/1yjCev+hB/iXgH2csqKBXohjZda6qPU69g==
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9113:0:b0:47c:2136:d397 with SMTP id 19-20020aa79113000000b0047c2136d397mr14325937pfh.23.1635555744146;  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t13sm6695375pgn.94.2021.10.29.18.02.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org
References:  <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 14:02:20 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 01:02:29 -0000

On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate dis=
cussion issue to the list. Here it is:
>>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the draft =
- one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE.
>>> For the RPC vendor one we say:
>>>        The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will con=
sist
>>>        of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected by t=
he
>>>        IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers.
>>> For the RSCE one we say:
>>>     The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members f=
rom
>>>     the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendati=
on
>>>     to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.
>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director expli=
citly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers.
>>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And if s=
o, why?
>>
>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might comme=
nt, but
>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC that=

>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each commit=
ee.
>=20
> Yes either or both, no preference.
>>
>> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream manager=
s in
>> the loop is essential for the RPC case,
>=20
> I agree.
>=20
>> and having the community in general
>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE.
>=20
> My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee who u=
nderstand the role being appointed to, not people chosen because they are=20
representatives of one group or another.


Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I was just ti=
lting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that doesn't mean you'd=20
choose randoms.

     Brian


From nobody Sat Oct 30 00:35:29 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2123A003F; Sat, 30 Oct 2021 00:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.219
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BueVSRn-bygJ; Sat, 30 Oct 2021 00:35:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A5303A003C; Sat, 30 Oct 2021 00:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:d03c:4383:6996:d39d] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:d03c:4383:6996:d39d]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19U7ZGdU3171429 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:35:16 +0200
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635579316; bh=Rry5mpXaQFAzheaBqT/JmtPe5Mwzoj4hyd+LtmcDr+w=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=JZDJTxeuBdv1mDQne7+MqvSw3ILXSAqrE/onaowKm1Jgrb9uxg+U4a0ZhtWDVl5Hn o0cdfIT5FHZGpT9WxSfuS8rWQVidRH8wtpIfo2zTeFjodNz01dgQWPEl+6EqdqUZ6n t/aDTO0cPpd+iD0NEwERbtJCqgXklTjGJ3NtQLsk=
Message-ID: <324d1d27-0d97-c424-fe6b-95ba772420b8@lear.ch>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:35:13 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------j4yngneorgN0CWJPbAxgyXTs"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 07:35:28 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------j4yngneorgN0CWJPbAxgyXTs
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------twHsHBXadD7TGgSKp1GsV06u";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Internet Architecture Board ,
 Brian Rosen 
Message-ID: <324d1d27-0d97-c424-fe6b-95ba772420b8@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL:
 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>
 <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org>

--------------twHsHBXadD7TGgSKp1GsV06u
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------L681mwCTtOMfNrBftb0lWtlu"

--------------L681mwCTtOMfNrBftb0lWtlu
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------P0OFnU0SJXZjPU080zt1IptN"

--------------P0OFnU0SJXZjPU080zt1IptN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------P0OFnU0SJXZjPU080zt1IptN
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    


    

    
On 29.10.21 22:08, Jay Daley wrote:
    

    
In the case that the
        RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended period then
        the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever
        recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE
        acts as the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment<=
/span>

    
I could envision example uses of this policy including
      maternity/paternity leave, extended sick leave, required military
      service leave.=C2=A0 And it is not permitted to permanently replace=

      someone in many of these circumstances.=C2=A0 Really the only quest=
ion
      for the group is whether the position should like vacant at such
      times.=C2=A0 The language here gives that latitude to the LLC, whic=
h
      allows for them to judge the current workload.

    

    
Eliot

  

--------------P0OFnU0SJXZjPU080zt1IptN--

--------------L681mwCTtOMfNrBftb0lWtlu
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------L681mwCTtOMfNrBftb0lWtlu--


--------------twHsHBXadD7TGgSKp1GsV06u--

--------------j4yngneorgN0CWJPbAxgyXTs
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF89bEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOw
HQf9GPX6jAaNAPkAGSWx7WfNyi1pwKVnfJmQyejurOU0DMMdF/U9ZH2Ob+JCRgols4ygmRRt5/oa
Hvm6U/ro7lPfhlpwdzlFFYAoYiT89+O1YmNH8yi4UKLlINbpSwa3Hg/if1dzJQhaPBBEflSw3dv3
wtTMD+nT5xA6ejOf8DzasqF7RY3Wv0rE+hE1Fri+HrvP1hzemAmtShUZ/rYpANkYD/WhLXkR4J0F
F7F5+4NexHmlcjXhAK5443wURfem63Z3kztCYEcR7xBJqXzcdNpZbeWwkV7eY+fAVP/KCGs5cl8a
ZSteNtXlHnTFWDK1J/IUoycRGzOK9MX5ZRFI5kEV3g==
=SXPo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------j4yngneorgN0CWJPbAxgyXTs--


From nobody Sat Oct 30 22:14:11 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CB13A085D; Sat, 30 Oct 2021 22:14:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.639
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.639 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hlh-q8pNAQdB; Sat, 30 Oct 2021 22:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1410092.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.141.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77EC83A085C; Sat, 30 Oct 2021 22:14:07 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=aokKcU9YkA04dMBCGoiiTzO3JkOMt0+/VRspB+VN/yYfeG3fYLPqp/FfpVIG0NvZV42GOgMabUZ5toFNQ/ZWDwMC/SHYjBAyGzdCOD6cLYqK9sS7AIsreq9i2wYMZwTFnIqw0YUcRBVQF0sG26x3xq7jgUfB+OcXAM3El00RlmCCoOVFb1rjEdLs62Kdy/04XhI/NStw0zYJ68qX70tLkOySe2jerq3Fd4hgWEkdABNXwjoCkW1/JUu/q0jIUVO7C9dgvldrSJtiALnlzObLVqlQVLgowlu6yHWru0CYPdVSjBXQftqdc31TCnNK2pgZzj87WS+VFcJUkdkMgqD4ZQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=bSSApT7+Zzr1Lo5Pc9FULbNdW2tgWbpLmf9DcvjkOQE=; b=a1H3QhPUGe/mXVc07f8JZgqp2yS/JbF2g5ArHNZexpZ+sUk6jNXX4g2gt4PrtcaJowbIdKXM5G8secj5AllIgNYLRcGvrf+V2z0HuCfaBW9hoX8hD0/0c91jYUVv/ggiQROFwvWa5KFAtiO3OSrVBkUK4EU4AKRebCsQUgUsoK2ThzrDNhG8CZqnjwXS6shxcmS6GGsTvnVSJFosjpryZASdmksdqPYCAiSsiKK72ESYZwTeYrg3D3XDqGVpkRmVbREw+BhzFu7wBQpS4w4/pcY1oQAk917F6OwtsjEpCOgKb6Xrh5Is4GPnBmwGtQMW/qUUmXcDn3T/XHq/bPuCkw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=bSSApT7+Zzr1Lo5Pc9FULbNdW2tgWbpLmf9DcvjkOQE=; b=qI4UZXdSdtwaFhsE+WrlUQ7M8NrgpoEMYdwCtI45PdYtj7/CaAWOs+5ILIapFAolhasA4nWbdB5cqg6pRkvcAERdXzUWa63kSHmuySjO0qVN47veBROl2Zqgg6pqSnmTDH8vIWnmRcE51k3uGgVlJDGx7CFArZRMkfj6XJy7KZY=
Authentication-Results: huitema.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huitema.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYCPR01MB6961.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:400:b8::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 05:14:04 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.018; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 05:14:04 +0000
Message-ID: 
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 11:09:52 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Christian Huitema 
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board 
References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch>   <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie>        <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch>  <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie>  <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org> <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
In-Reply-To: <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TY2PR04CA0002.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:f6::14) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.8] (118.19.13.55) by TY2PR04CA0002.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:f6::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.15 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 05:14:04 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 69d25324-dea7-45a1-2d18-08d99c2d4203
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYCPR01MB6961:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: rbIa+6bCYd+3h5Jhpx/YC0BJ6q4cFk5p6qg8gFnqW466ylUW/AEUusrrNLBKLXKnU9XZHBc5TZBsVAFLopGCozc9xR6U7q+9ihwTicsvuxi69lRwV8URMPkuNU7MrsTOj68V6a5wnkYBAA+QaTBgvN4CuvCTxYcr9Xx4scDg4sbxVYU3wIGZpN6r1stbCEBY9SwX3Tuz8t1NfE2RdHTLYXakRe5bBNLWSEAdWj+0Lpd8Vc2Nkw/kPHZax+dppj7hscN03GbZYPfV0PY7gXjHpcbdS4XZSXiBSr+FFgjTViQweRDRmVq6UkGj2w4QqLLxbvU+lMIS0kIX1uPm0SD7tls7vy1EisAwSzSb5ZLOD1CjBce+tUV+9qdevsr1C2nPCcw03xynHzd8XV8eZ8z9SyTE/A83wNaD7RrXbsKpTSkqPaT4FzmnABH9XJ3Cyhw8fEZbsjHsLInRgVSBNNRWBDsKXSPxtUSnGCU3F3SnHc49ETWJXokyo3R97k8LVGnQnN7ksL+DMPvhKBZTy1j0Kr89S+peuzTnB+wx/OEDFWGVjDdYxnTbV4V/+Z0zGohdn6FVyzpNMIlovS0mCLH0UuTiRfKjpZYa6Nt5IyHEJDd0cU6Az+mbMNlwVGLBBmyG8yuUV9dEJ4yvAZcqafCUDmgqUg3tgO8DFr+UznOQ8CABny5cAkSAGVBosPsAfOR6whLkf1LyLbnvZ5kezHT9if9Vhahy/yoc7ZubrX82T1lLPW6Cml3Ti7oNbQh5eD8hRm8nhVPrMm7+Gm8wTm646e89uRAT8183K6cIUY/XDRE=
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(396003)(39840400004)(376002)(346002)(136003)(366004)(186003)(4326008)(6486002)(26005)(8676002)(8936002)(508600001)(5660300002)(31686004)(66946007)(66476007)(6916009)(66556008)(38350700002)(54906003)(52116002)(31696002)(786003)(956004)(316002)(4001150100001)(53546011)(16576012)(2616005)(38100700002)(6666004)(86362001)(2906002)(83380400001)(36916002)(21314003)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?RmpadDNmWS9vMUo1WnVML0RyNWVjSVZ0dkhPNWdSdlNoUk9HL082YU1xR1lr?= =?utf-8?B?b3h0RkNVdjRWa00xaWFlakdJbldVaTRMTFlYTnV6OXBpKzNmQlFyekJ2VEMv?= =?utf-8?B?NS9rbVViUTltY0ErZ21JemtkM3crZHFwdnFhSkV3MG1kK05CT3ppWkR6MXdW?= =?utf-8?B?bG5UV1ByWmRKYXFjczcrMXM2SWhIUWVtRjJHdTFqbHYzTXVTUHh0SVhSZUpO?= =?utf-8?B?aFY2c0cvZk9kbHpvN0piM2xEVFdOdFo5ZFBzbTd5WGJnVUNNRDlCWDN0OXBU?= =?utf-8?B?MWorczZ0ZHVhQ1dBblIzNnM3ZFVya29XLzkxNlRmNHdOMVIraUxLc2JBU3h1?= =?utf-8?B?U3lqUTREd1MxckE4UHpscXoyZGl3UkpMYVp4YjVLcHh0WE5YaFNwcjBhVW94?= =?utf-8?B?MWJEb0hjZ0JiLzAyQk9qN1Zrd1dScFVDNHJCa3FUVjN3VG5Ld1FEVHNzZnBw?= =?utf-8?B?N004cHo2dzhBSXpnYnc0QjBSa01JV2F5c0VqbXdzb05Yb0RjbVhzOG1lZVE1?= =?utf-8?B?bTJhVERBam40cnpkRFdybDJkK2xjQmdObnp1WjZNakI0YnUyV3oyTFJMVndE?= =?utf-8?B?UzdSZnNrYzAwcE1QdThJdTlaSnhVVUNzbUxRTTFCdUkwUnVmRERySGpCdEpL?= =?utf-8?B?VTU1Q2JkQUhWVmpxZzcyRVRnSzJteDZQNytYL3F4V1dJMTlnR1dYOVV5dkJh?= =?utf-8?B?R1drNUdVNGxFSHhMK2FaUUtaeGNmWEVVUWtvOVQ0WWlvY1VPQ0dUZUlMRjhi?= =?utf-8?B?UFZ5OUVxRHVTUC9sQ1VGZWxsSG10RnRZUG1iNmVpbUlDcFdrc240SXBpNjky?= =?utf-8?B?WWYwQVN6L2twenpsTDRaMEdzWFZWSG9hVXYyeXJ1OVpLeWtWYnE2Znd2YWwv?= =?utf-8?B?aUVyNHd3SGZGQ2EydU5mTkNRclRBb1RyMFllaGo3YUlxTDBHRzZFQ3lMOFIz?= =?utf-8?B?YjZYZ3VXdXgxMWxic1V1SnBEcVBaaFdVRTFBQWR0d1ZFUCtBUzA2aWdLRUw3?= =?utf-8?B?U090MDAxWUZtb2l1ZmZoeUg2UjdVNWR2dHhQakd1RWF6WlVTV1VGQ2hUOUFt?= =?utf-8?B?NlVJTkhGaXM3UGN5TXFKQlAwcnV0VG5CTnpBUmsvZHQ5WWFHcHBFNGhNajRt?= =?utf-8?B?anhjWjBaZnJucVZERi9aZG1kM0JNUUdwNUpqSG9oeWNqWmV3Vml1QTR3U2xL?= =?utf-8?B?UkUzampOclJkY01yZmdKWUZDMk9uSHVWeUVvYnBqWE80MlZvWVd3U1FvaUJU?= =?utf-8?B?am16eG1FMGlXNHphbWVlSEs3K0VQU2JKRXZHc1U0SVAxUVo2UmR2Ri91M1RC?= =?utf-8?B?MjhVREhOSGZhYXVRZmwyQXhhM09ZeE1vZDJjUHZTczdLWGxzUXFtbE53Tnl4?= =?utf-8?B?NCtQdUNDVk1Gd09xYnIzWVlTU2hJWjFmZURLbUlFY2FRTm4wWVVIRXVkeHhN?= =?utf-8?B?M3J2djQ5eUMzclg2VllBSDA2a21wTWtiWmxBZUR2dkVucGxLc2c3blFGVVZV?= =?utf-8?B?ZlZ4cFUycU84VGUwd0hqalVHcW1DTklkM3lMVWluakR4a0czRzZYYTMvblEz?= =?utf-8?B?R1IxTmNxQlBRR3RyQVlESVRuT2JMSVJtY3AzemZDT3drbnFSb2dORlFnTDlL?= =?utf-8?B?Qk9MRWZNWHJobWhGRXgrYlVFVHNYOElPN1hhQU90T2VoelNRaTNodnppTWdq?= =?utf-8?B?UC9iYXpOdGI5RFFldTNsU292UWIwU0N2b3hvbEpHbmNBNFBLMmtBWUtDMVU0?= =?utf-8?B?ME5HK29xV3l5OU9QM1JWbFBoY21OdHAzZkJGYW45ZENRWUtES3doemFxbXF3?= =?utf-8?B?cUQ2UXNvNDhoVkltQWdWQVYxRlFvdC9BT0lFNlF1L2VaWmlqNVF4azB2K1RZ?= =?utf-8?B?UE9udmdiRnVpUnByQy8zTnRBSHJlYWxJY3AwTXoyNEhzZERhMzdNR01xcU15?= =?utf-8?B?d0ZwdXhqRVZsUXVsa3Z0dzZLRXUvU2t4ajYvYW9Hb2NxWHRLcW0xdTVEeGlO?= =?utf-8?B?MDRpejB4Q0VSRG12YVJkOGZFeGNlaGpLbkh6cFZnYXhUVXFKanR0Q1FNMDcr?= =?utf-8?B?ZmJWL2xDTUFrOTlmZGtiTE56U2Z6a3ZoUUVnY01NaGhXWWlYMDZHajVTbURy?= =?utf-8?B?SFl3dkZ5WStHZ3M1SkFoelhRZnNheUo4alBUS3JxNE9BbWgya0UzUzNWVkZN?= =?utf-8?Q?ALgwwal27RvY/8ZZc5Z6KIs=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 69d25324-dea7-45a1-2d18-08d99c2d4203
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Oct 2021 05:14:04.5537 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: b99s0wyVvkqeb1L8n7NF147HNOr1vJDus1rKqSRgPsQCmCHCRwu7C39UTKRRTSbA0D5b1uSM7GFjDDnd3tUGRw==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYCPR01MB6961
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 05:14:11 -0000

Hello Christian, others,

Thanks for mentioning the elephant in the room (changing the way RFCs 
get 'updated').

This is indeed a problem that may be discussed very actively in the 
future RSWG and RSAG. But please note that this cannot happen 
independently of the streams. It's the streams that have the authority 
on the content of their RFC.

Let's assume that the RSWG and RSAG came up with a way of integrating 
errata into published RFCs. If any stream refused, that stream's errata 
would just not participate in this feature.

The dependency is much clearer for more aggressive proposals. Let's 
assume that the RSWG and RSAG came up with a way of publishing RFCs as 
'living standards'. It's very clear that if any stream didn't want that, 
they just wouldn't use this feature.

I hope that also makes it clear that in particular for more aggressive 
proposals, the initiative really has to come from the streams, or more 
correctly, from the bodies behind these streams. Otherwise, any work is 
bound to be dead on arrival. Overall, it will probably take quite some 
time and a lot of coordination.

That leads me to the conclusion that whatever statement about heritage 
we make or do not make, we should be fine, because there isn't too much 
of a risk of some subgroup in the RSWG to dominate the direction.

Regards,   Martin.



On 2021-10-28 08:58, Christian Huitema wrote:
> On 10/27/2021 3:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
> 
>> It seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of 
>> the RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is 
>> impossible to pin down as a general statement and is best addressed 
>> during a discussion on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the 
>> text is very carefully worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is 
>> necessary to avoid stagnation) then it would be such a blunt 
>> instrument that I would expect it to be regularly invoked 
>> inappropriately and to create friction because those invoking it would 
>> think they have policy on their side.
> 
> 
> I don't think of that in terms of heritage so much as principles. I 
> think we have broad agreement about most principles, such as making 
> access to the discussion open and free. We also mostly have broad 
> agreement on preserving continuity of the look and feel of the series, 
> even if after tortuous debate we finally got  the format to evolve and 
> allow such things as international characters or vector graphics. The 
> only principle that I see regularly contested is the idea that once 
> published, RFC cannot be changed.
> 
> I hear the arguments on both sides. On one side, RFC are archived 
> documents, and we don't get to rewrite the past ever, so yes, once a 
> document is stamped with a number, it is cast in stone. On the other 
> side, network protocol specifications need to evolve frequently, and if 
> they evolve developers ought to have a simple mean to access the latest 
> version of protocol XXX. There is a big tension there, because if the 
> protocol is known as RFC NNNN, then it cannot change. If it is known as 
> protocol XXX it can change but then the RFC number becomes irrelevant. 
> Arguably we have a tension between keeping the series relevant and 
> maintaining a core principle.
> 
> Resolving such tensions is exactly what the RSWG should do. I don't 
> think that we should try to preempt the debate by making statements 
> about heritage. That leads me to agree with Eric and Elliot.
> 
> -- Christian Huitema
> 


From nobody Sun Oct 31 00:47:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EF83A03EF for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=gn/ye7aN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IfTRA+zz
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kcsVy2XRXrsa for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 142333A0062 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE435C0107 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 03:39:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 31 Oct 2021 03:39:34 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject; s=fm1; bh=bYibPHFL9c5 HmFlnJ05pGZIOGpk2JcKJpBKAcaYcLv8=; b=gn/ye7aNrFdYtsn4OswvmZRAdT/ jrg7+BEndqcw61o/BEb04MOl53aYjtikOI4R4YXuXsWw8Tkhoggev8EZTAqBpOpn a11PMZTrY5DhN3XDCAkYA/WFgaAeSuq4JVq41t9rjlyoxUJHs3Of04Bc+3tTXx3x awdvdwlk/pxSFgMDQlOVyDYr3rlRkg9cKLHg+Ok1duhLsOFIF8THi77F8y3lsBpQ W7NFVkY2WVTw832H1kfD8yI9WxvxP54ilJjaz6lxYLpvA3EDicjv01fplbnLT8Wd +4FhD8WNgmckfeqpw+Nw5Ijcvz/0vbeW0IFcpw/unkGBETdrJJ5hOV5MYgg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:from:mime-version:subject:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=bYibPHFL9c5HmFlnJ05pGZIOGpk2JcKJpBKAcaYcLv8=; b=IfTRA+zz JbxAhJFCX04XE2H+5S0btwUtyDthlZAJ7Yd+8NBqoTyoeUdtdt5X9W7iGAsJ46Sc HzBDH/Jsec9cCm+AREzb4cpSHfi/DjaHzB7puHPQjemwGhGkBP38cwwczwotasVh 5nel7peDwJFtEttaEuSRwMPF9qOpK3L3BAV9B3Lh91qKjPYJLK/V86zBbdWp7U0r t0uwIo0Mk0+11DUBSH6kWYLksXk8RxHxQMbOfH+jcj400AeN+E8YbciIuDQ3R6in 4StLKfWMNiSLkiGmaUhFHUYgDHO/xKTBe5NLs16TzltffnAIwjJBU2QkEcbi/4v+ FKLlATwjjiER3Q==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdegledgtdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucfpohcuuggrthgvuchfihgvlhguucdlgeelmdenuc fjughrpegtggfhvffusegrtddtredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpeftvghpohhsihhtohhrhicu tegtthhivhhithihucfuuhhmmhgrrhihuceuohhtuceoughopghnohhtpghrvghplhihse hmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeefvdduteejvdefkeehieevuefg fefhteetveegffekffefteffvdelheduieetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtg homhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegu ohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 03:39:33 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============2562411997544052751=="
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Repository Activity Summary Bot 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Message-Id: <20211031074655.142333A0062@ietfa.amsl.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity Summary)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 07:47:00 -0000

--===============2562411997544052751==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"




Events=20

Issues
------
* intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+16/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC16)
  16 issues created:
  - Minor:  RPC Statement of Work (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/112=20
  - selection committees (again) (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/111=20
  - Where to put the RSCE role definition? (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/110=20
  - Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org in sto=
ne? (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109=20
  - Remove the word "ultimate" (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/108=20
  - What are the updates to other RFC? (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/107=20
  - Editorial: Update first sentence of abstract? (by mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/106=20
  - RPC responsibilities list missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) respon=
sibilities (by JayDaley)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105=20
  - Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is stil=
l in post but temporarily unavailable (by JayDaley)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104=20
  - Are contributions to the RSWG contributions to the IETF? (by larseggert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/100=20
  - Member of the community vs. delegate (by larseggert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/98=20
  - 3-month timer restart? (by larseggert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/97=20
  - Who resolves disputes when they need to be timely? (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/94=20
  - Basis for appeals of RSAB decisions (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/93=20
  - Can the IETF LLC ED delegate? (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/91=20
  - Should the 2418 backstop be more general (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/90=20

  11 issues received 16 new comments:
  - #112 Minor:  RPC Statement of Work (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/112 [Editor=
ial]=20
  - #111 selection committees (again) (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/111=20
  - #110 Where to put the RSCE role definition? (2 by elear, mirjak)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/110=20
  - #109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org i=
n stone? (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109=20
  - #105 RPC responsibilities list missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) r=
esponsibilities (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105=20
  - #104 Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is=
 still in post but temporarily unavailable (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104=20
  - #100 Are contributions to the RSWG contributions to the IETF? (2 by bec=
arpenter, larseggert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/100=20
  - #98 Member of the community vs. delegate (2 by elear, stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/98 [Editori=
al]=20
  - #97 3-month timer restart? (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/97=20
  - #91 Can the IETF LLC ED delegate? (2 by JayDaley, stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/91=20
  - #90 Should the 2418 backstop be more general (2 by elear, stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/90=20

  4 issues closed:
  - Where to put the RSCE role definition? https://github.com/intarchboard/=
program-rfced-future/issues/110=20
  - Member of the community vs. delegate https://github.com/intarchboard/pr=
ogram-rfced-future/issues/98 [Editorial]=20
  - Can the IETF LLC ED delegate? https://github.com/intarchboard/program-r=
fced-future/issues/91=20
  - Are contributions to the RSWG contributions to the IETF? https://github=
.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/100=20



Pull requests
-------------
* intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+10/-8/=F0=9F=92=AC6)
  10 pull requests submitted:
  - harmonize terminology (by stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/103=20
  - #91 (by stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/102=20
  - Clarify RPC-led policies (by mnot)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101=20
  - Require participants to publish I-Ds, not just generate them (by larseg=
gert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/99=20
  - Wording clarifications related to appointing bodies and stream managers=
 (by larseggert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/96=20
  - Suggestions to address some nits (by larseggert)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/95=20
  - Consider for approval (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/92=20
  - Add better section references to other RFCs (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/89=20
  - Use section references rather than "below" (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/88=20
  - Remove trailing whitespace (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/87=20

  3 pull requests received 6 new comments:
  - #101 Clarify RPC-led policies (4 by elear, mnot, stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101=20
  - #95 Suggestions to address some nits (1 by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/95=20
  - #88 Use section references rather than "below" (1 by stpeter)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/88=20

  8 pull requests merged:
  - harmonize terminology
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/103=20
  - #91
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/102=20
  - Require participants to publish I-Ds, not just generate them
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/99=20
  - Suggestions to address some nits
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/95 [Editorial=
]=20
  - Consider for approval
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/92=20
  - Add better section references to other RFCs
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/89=20
  - Use section references rather than "below"
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/88=20
  - Remove trailing whitespace
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/87=20


Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future

--===============2562411997544052751==
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable





Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity=
 Summary)





Sunday October 31, 2021



Events 



Issues



intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+16/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC16)

  
16 issues created:

  

  
11 issues received 16 new comments:

  

  
4 issues closed:

  




Pull requests


intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+10/-8/=F0=9F=92=AC6)

  
10 pull requests submitted:

  

  
3 pull requests received 6 new comments:

  

  
8 pull requests merged:

  



Repositories tracked by this digest:





--===============2562411997544052751==--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 06:13:30 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B823A03F3 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 06:13:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BMaz8UBqfmlB for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 06:13:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30D5E3A02C1 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 06:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 19VDDIC94032470 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 14:13:18 +0100
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635685999; bh=IyHsrAV3Eytr2nOzHbFo52Pd2nbHas2GYxXp6A19N4s=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=XoHASTDkgCntHEp0Q6GcOmkIgxmQnhG0GBHyEaLMYOXarGL7p7ZD2IOSIpRQgKHrT raWUm6BhlAdAkXWU3wXfArb91VVRmhRNdyUao4SAhG4XxzkUlgqsihVTZN+h/pp3jd OfwQNHUEDIaswhptkYexorCxa2O+/Th0KQp9jwsM=
Message-ID: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 14:13:16 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------2Fr0lkasoM8oIC0H0aeO9UbN"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 13:13:29 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------2Fr0lkasoM8oIC0H0aeO9UbN
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------zuKt0bzETzUu71xZg0PIM20K";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>
Subject: PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)

--------------zuKt0bzETzUu71xZg0PIM20K
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------JL0GfdsmvTzyFeY09mevSPHi"

--------------JL0GfdsmvTzyFeY09mevSPHi
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------wk247SJ1zrwhyJpFEQg1kbFC"

--------------wk247SJ1zrwhyJpFEQg1kbFC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------wk247SJ1zrwhyJpFEQg1kbFC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  

    
  
  
    

      Hi everyone,

    
I have been attempting to catalog all comments received thus
      far.=C2=A0 There are a few editorials that are not present that hav=
e
      already been dealt with.=C2=A0 Could you please review (a) for
      completeness, and (b) to comment on issues you think are
      important.=C2=A0 At this stage of the game, unless there is support=
 to
      change the text, I don't see how we do so, modulo editorials.

    
The tracker can be found here,
      but issues are generally on the list (the text should look
      familiar to them.

    
There is still one week left to go in the last call.=C2=A0 If you
      would like to add your comments and concerns, of course please do
      so.

    
Eliot

    

    

    

    =

          

         
        

          Issue
            #
          

          		
          Title
          Possible Disposition
        

        

          51
          

          		
          8728 Review
          Tracking issue to close
        

        

          82
          

          		
          RSAB vacancies
          Text now in draft
        

        

          84
          

          		
          RSAB quorum
          Text now in draft
        

        

          86
          

          		
          Editorial: add referece to draft-carpenter-iab-charterText in working copy
        

        

          90
          

          		
          Should the 2418 backstop be more general
          No support (some against)
        

        

          93
          

          		
          Appeals against RSAB decisions
          Open
        

        

          94
          

          		
          Who resolves disputes when they need to be timely?
          Open
        

        

          97
          

          		
          3-month restart timer
          No consensus- some support for three months from RSWG
            approval
        

        

          104
          

          		
          Temporary RSCE
          Open - more discussion needed
        

        

          105
          

          		
          RPC responsibilities missing a couple of responsibilities
          Ties to john Levine comments- text proposed on list seems
            to have support
        

        

          106
          

          		
          Editorial: first sentence of the abstract
          leave to editor
        

        

          107
          

          		
          What are the updates to other RFCs?
          Be slightly clearer on what has changed (notably 8730, but
            also 7841)
        

        

          108
          

          		
          Remove word ultimate
          No support (some against)
        

        

          109
          

          		
          Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest into the
            draft?
          Proposed word change
        

        

          111
          

          		
          Selection committees (again)
          editorial: inconsistent wording
        

        

          112
          

          		
          RPC SOW (editorial)
          editorial: reaffirm intent
        

        

          113
          

          		
          Editorial Expertise Concerns
          No proposed changes
        

        

          114
          

          		
          RSWG for everything?
          Discuss
        

        

          115
          

          		
          No accountability
          Propose to close: key design choice and issue raised
            earlier
        

        

          116
          

          		
          Initial list of RFCs for editorial stream?
          Already proposed and rejected by group (and no support)
        

        

          117
          

          		
          Editorial: wording tweak regardig ownership of XML and
            responsibilities
          Text in working copy
        

        

          118
          

          		
          Costs hidden?
          Discussion requested
        

        

          119
          

          		
          Heritage
          Proposed text
        

        

          120
          

          		
          Performance target text tweak
          No support, and was previously discussed (level of detail)<=
/td>
        

        

          

          		
          

          		
          

          		
          

          		
        

      
    

    

      

    

      

  

--------------wk247SJ1zrwhyJpFEQg1kbFC--

--------------JL0GfdsmvTzyFeY09mevSPHi
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------JL0GfdsmvTzyFeY09mevSPHi--


--------------zuKt0bzETzUu71xZg0PIM20K--

--------------2Fr0lkasoM8oIC0H0aeO9UbN
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF+lmwFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOx
mwf+OB4yWDLKAkrBIHYL36p93aRQzxGkWVwWIyxaYyeeDTll3W7T5AZwXR7jCZZ6287gEwhX+0lm
TQ2TPmmuNzZ8xANrAAZRtAbhiETbCF6Pjcw1pXbBEdXGQDaqn8pJQ8NSch7a86GmW/ksz+imxojX
TE5RhHf8V2IQ8PeRwgx6/QtF7HpFG1eyhpTyVNqIelvDtNOz1+vT6lS1ki69VZaVq17yFAzKrqm0
RssSXFMFKAx41hFs4LWu6xdF7oIc8V15+EQnXWhzm8hqzOt8H5B0fCcy73hDaJVykJzjuzOoDj6d
GT44vjNZryTHPY2386GtPGWAOdZObADxj1+NZ/ES3w==
=qtWB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------2Fr0lkasoM8oIC0H0aeO9UbN--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 14:19:59 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9FB3A0A01 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 14:19:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogEBmH5cwtPT for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 14:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80124.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 962663A0AB0 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 14:19:41 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=FsUH2Vtk5bpR03VFdtyuBp8cFDnFKkZbYugttK2Mg622vFA2bR9Km4ATHoICScYT60FIazvCZM/SrGGD84g1LkNyvqOhAco5v9e2uGdH0UuPwjOcQrCRrIJc8xCj6cnz6ZSbGsCG7ZiiB0fpseNxP/K2vv+GbJrKWm9W7Rg7KZItyLaJXHD8Hnj60kOjARa6nnM8K6Of2KnwCZor9UlUSuZm+jNVK3EKNt1x9zSMiazPLgywhvkMMBS132MfohonnhXkPBPzDfmiWFi6tZet2hNrtEV2wXq+6D6T1nZk1mQK3J5vVh1TmKqUJXHS3aFMyUDlo/3vaiQ/N8X63fOf6g==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=qvz8sa6NWyjUDVbCqXKKymfc3kBlyP7/GqceZZ4Fapg=; b=RE1d2AVxO62X7xxY/nU1kBo2rW38sgt31aA7minXogzc7fY9OajqLLMzboHfoCgBnncz+1Jggtd1GrQxGEavlZwZUfW+yvBZhq5WKLqpt1o5aFtaIGDI81eALMgXlKedOfygEnCplq53byNeFoHwCcDz6MMMKRjaBJWav1m4Eojv8TiscJXSlIJBYR8IpkhvYXFHIUSVzhyUXSnznGt3tcQ+ztswFld7npWQGYnWAf0p7LDhYXwC5QYag7Of13U36120bMf8waLB13p8aFE2qk3ca6tHCOfSeN8awuffTrppsLHLP86nUCUAUGfsfHyqtpwbm0J45bH6y4nRvgrjUw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=qvz8sa6NWyjUDVbCqXKKymfc3kBlyP7/GqceZZ4Fapg=; b=f1PiHvhVCGeIYgJ4NH42D7tvL+iW+ZMvubreqmqHk3BNBGfeSgw1g3mM5hS1hSer5N/gND59z+BWdvOpbz5zxz3YNmHHKLLZO056CUCsiP/LiKKLNd3a8Q+Ib6Kb5R47UBRLReBS3XrbdyjV9JGTbFwtdmb+vP0/cE8lpYIv5ZWASFAtmpXpq4lYHdHhpApl7Mb+dsMhDgugDiX9M9nkGPmKwQk2iemL2RrZ2bGqydD9X/njmtS5jlVq3kkoshaai1d5R9ZLRmUXtO4WFL2inO8uHf9sm17oSnkTe233AYeTAsexJXOUwOzaCEEl7Oy27YRKEp4is7jr60za8Jn9cA==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR02MB3221.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:19::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.15; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:19:37 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.019; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:19:37 +0000
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <27f1b2a2-7f73-f4f8-0746-3b3feced4d3e@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:19:35 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MfxQurH0DXH3mVW0F9ZTv0hzdHmmwun8n"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DBBPR09CA0018.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:c0::30) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9196:ff46:fbb1:c46d] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9196:ff46:fbb1:c46d) by DBBPR09CA0018.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:c0::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.17 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:19:37 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4309e4cf-0fdd-4184-7506-08d99cb424ae
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR02MB3221:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:407;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: kHVD6ZiJOalssPPnC+alBqPMeYSEWaRH8Iqy1I0oCzkPkmNbxFj06Gerv+wUgF66ecGMbvC5RlF5+gmf4PxF0q48VLnxe8Vdkywb/ItHd5/MgZhGiVbDQZ+q5+ZaHitQ+9Zl0iXyFDgoPM2zx1wGYcbX6uuIEnx6buPDY8h9ABRrA4AFqTORZEvb2xuhxwpJje0eyffS51UQHkUJ27Pkj5NsNq2FMzDXDfGJv9S2KyTxg5OclcpQmGz1fPHuAvryLv5EHdfdBOYjDX2+2+pulrraOKXYhA8FsloQiX1E/EU8w/n1bhGcscRMm5gvGml8A8vGFrwgQK+r67H+7jGHUVF32YDar5Ol8Sw+DSUlSt54oG+m9RMdW/A5nhcg7NayEBv2QhH41lnu7ceYXKgSOjvSP5npVTpgB626anCcN5smJjq0RVyzWQAl6pFZoYP715F5Cj5mBYWuVIABn5aaCoYrxGzCFcV8F0EIQP7VcpNBHFT3CbzlSqQd4J+e2vgVvGfMFIh2YgvUuwvxaJbS10KK73DMbql7dwN4W9DvYdl5lS07cr8d8yfT3F6YAkRvzFVM19xlULF6ay9OFLOspGv1TYzhxqwKbmY/zWfvh5DYaYsuqQkvlP5w4tsqahapwKzeWdLb3RgfR/o9eoOb1bgYd14nEf8zT1FK3GNUQ6iu6EYyAysfTd8Oweam0zWymkvu9Fu07pnON+peUo8poQCicdyD6JdeV00ath5LEaA=
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(31696002)(2906002)(8676002)(36756003)(31686004)(235185007)(186003)(5660300002)(508600001)(83380400001)(110136005)(786003)(316002)(8936002)(2616005)(21480400003)(66556008)(66476007)(44832011)(53546011)(33964004)(38100700002)(6486002)(66946007)(86362001)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?MGpWNVYvbEhXWm1kRk85RFMzWU9scVVGU3huaUl4dnc5czF3UVZoaE1WVVJT?= =?utf-8?B?R1pDNU9MemovRnRhRHg0REVzOTVMdHNFMkdPTFFFOUNIaHY4RDVTMnhXVTJX?= =?utf-8?B?M005Z0tPTTI4VVMvVXRua0MvN0JSZFBCWkViU0VMdS8yQThqMEpNQUswTzZl?= =?utf-8?B?WmRBVi9PZFMybHdEWUxnRFVjYmQwbTl1RzV6bnF1cGxzVEtZVWE4MndkMWc1?= =?utf-8?B?d243WUpuMzBnRVRQb2hmR1hqd3BBSUhEa29INjR4dzhNMUFlTnp4djdtazhq?= =?utf-8?B?OGZWNGN3VW1HaHZGU0U4elRJbS9PWkdOZjd1V0NsR1pvMlRyd2NOQ1dac1U0?= =?utf-8?B?MjVDVVRJM2dkNHFQSmllUjQ2THdGUGRzWm1OeERhajR4NFBobktjNXRuV3Q2?= =?utf-8?B?NzR6R0VpeUI1c0ViK3orb0hVWVpzQ0pzYzljUUdLQWNOVEp0b1h3VlIvaHYw?= =?utf-8?B?NjMwRWNXdjMzL0dPK3lUOFZCL2ZVekNPanhkdUk0dVBVV2YwOHI2Zlcra3ZT?= =?utf-8?B?bTZ3RG1XK0Z3MlQwd3dKUkFKa29oeWMwdXB6cURhbkhZcXNEZFhoWU1wTFFz?= =?utf-8?B?TlhBUEJmRytDUk5sdVZzbldyaFZxTXJObzRmYkpvMnhhWk5zb01JOUVCVWxD?= =?utf-8?B?R2lOeGhIMjh5dm9NWTRaNUJhaWk2K0FPeVR5WUREeXh5QzJybHdOY2ZONHQ2?= =?utf-8?B?MVl0T2xBUHVVK1pTODllMWh2NHRxMVZqeEZoUmFtdUUzWUJrYW9zQ1JkMkJZ?= =?utf-8?B?NW05bGNtYVNPV2pDMXQvYU1QL0ovVDZWSGVFZnhSdlJpUTY0YTJoNTVXMUhX?= =?utf-8?B?YWs4VjQ4TEVSQVJaTGhqQnE2OGxuOE1HQWN4RzhUd1FBdjQ2S3d2SW9aK3E1?= =?utf-8?B?MUNpakxERk01OGZrakpncUdUSWlESGExeDdlYkRLZzR3MGF4MnJzRGpDc0Qy?= =?utf-8?B?WFprOStzdHRNZFhNcEdSRUE4VXlYdUgvRjRlNWRSVklYUzIxT3AvZExNZVhN?= =?utf-8?B?dklCY3VhbnZXTWVXN0FhNUZpeEMrdHJRTk9jQ21JTXQxdGNJb0ZDTnc2SEVt?= =?utf-8?B?UGdVM24wbDVPS3dMdGRjT2l6d3NjMUxlVUJBQmdGaWx3Q1Q4MHNKUUc5bk5u?= =?utf-8?B?QUNJTE9BM0dneXFrWWVTVktCNE9La05DWDJGWWcyNCs5a25OVkJDTlgxMVdK?= =?utf-8?B?K3dTaDBYcE5EcDEvUWxheTgyWXRWckUrbTlucU9PTDF2QjVGckFGTUFCWnEr?= =?utf-8?B?ZzFpOG9mdklFSkxoS1lqcUZlOTYwQXdCUWhVbitVNUtFd2dLNDRnYnh4aE1N?= =?utf-8?B?MThMdk1WeXBUVGozNUdBdzl4S1VncEc1SHVqN0lGOC8wWjVJcHA5dFJ2aG9s?= =?utf-8?B?N1Jia2YzeWp1Vmd1NHVEZllpRzltKzh0QlFnbUJKYUdCWDMyRGxBTFhvclRC?= =?utf-8?B?TTlYSjJwMVBqQlJ1ZDgyVWxudmcxamZYekd5VmNDQ2RPK0EvaEN5M2owYWZ1?= =?utf-8?B?NFY1aTI1Ym1xMUcvTjBkM3FYUXZvZEFjV0VURHFjd09PQjJzL0lYTTRRMW9R?= =?utf-8?B?V25IK3V1VDlIK2ZBempmOUEwTGIzcHR0blluVXZERVZZMDlMNWRnRkFxd29L?= =?utf-8?B?VFZ6MVJTeEticnduMk5KRWFId0NsdSs0U090Mm1OU3NPQktmdGl2UllvQzcv?= =?utf-8?B?RTFud29CWWtWL1hLQ0QxZVRRb3BVSDFkYUIyT3pNdzVWcVRvVWZHQy9pTXZI?= =?utf-8?B?ZHpPWlA0dnhUTDZJRTZMeUxyRmNiSTFsenFhazk5ZHQ4cC9sOEdkQkxlMmI1?= =?utf-8?B?eU1GQXJSeUJicUd4MFRNTWdqbThJaVRPRXZIM09uck9VVlF5YVBmdE96UE5T?= =?utf-8?B?Zlh4RnZOV0VtTGpHS3J2dnRmTFVrS1F6QUZXSXdJQWdHZGprMHlOMFdiQmtm?= =?utf-8?B?WjBNcWlsc0dSWHR6WnVPQ0lxR2VUa2IvUmNhRW9BV3pXZlNSeitLaHhCdS84?= =?utf-8?B?WGlHMW9sSmNaVzFYejFnM2ZMQWpYSEdFbldtUEZURTRjd2dQM0s0bmNha0Rw?= =?utf-8?B?VFJTNWVlWTNndDM1V3VHMDdiNGgxTW5HSi94MzBLaW5xUWc0a0FuMHFHRUhB?= =?utf-8?B?aVpjT0RCU29leFlaM0NPTWQ5TXA0emMxWVo3S2wyamVNd2JYdnFlaitSM3lp?= =?utf-8?Q?uC+iJCsI+qhR7LsJ377Nx4o=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4309e4cf-0fdd-4184-7506-08d99cb424ae
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Oct 2021 21:19:37.4064 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: sSyLnYV+a+TIqQSmZUwkY/CS0ImoFqrxKxZiTcOTvLD7TfB7lIv8CW4VCIJXgwtR
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR02MB3221
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:19:58 -0000

--MfxQurH0DXH3mVW0F9ZTv0hzdHmmwun8n
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JnJ2H0ZoEiXxEdqCuuHWlLOm1bSDBEsQ1";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <27f1b2a2-7f73-f4f8-0746-3b3feced4d3e@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)
References: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>
In-Reply-To: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>

--JnJ2H0ZoEiXxEdqCuuHWlLOm1bSDBEsQ1
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------44C53C24878D0504E53FD866"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------44C53C24878D0504E53FD866
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On this one:

On 31/10/2021 13:13, Eliot Lear wrote:
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Remove=C2=A0word=C2=A0ultimate=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0No=C2=A0support=C2=A0(some=C2=A0against)

I expressed a similar opinion in my review so I do support
removing that term. The community is what needs to be (and
be seen to be) "ultimately" responsible for everything in
this entire context. If not, we could be setting ourselves
up for future capture.

Cheers,
S.

--------------44C53C24878D0504E53FD866
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------44C53C24878D0504E53FD866--

--JnJ2H0ZoEiXxEdqCuuHWlLOm1bSDBEsQ1--

--MfxQurH0DXH3mVW0F9ZTv0hzdHmmwun8n
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=lflj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--MfxQurH0DXH3mVW0F9ZTv0hzdHmmwun8n--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 17:34:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8183A07F7 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 17:34:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.231
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9EWtge8wZUjl for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 17:34:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400113.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76BAB3A07CA for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 17:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=XNiMjqUTdVqEjinMQ35VdoxqFKX4DAjozgRnppIL6Uko73NFGL/zYSdLuyCHCUHhkdsfH27A0JgR/s8C3HZZXMX/jLQ0oIcJyWEoMTOTHLci2PQpO0jAVBY5huSCddeoZQrRlIfNy7Lep4SXGvIZwjxnA3EM+thIsgaocHtCFo2cFTeO891XQSVHmxHcGb6qMSkPtYfDwvKv/4dX5T1FFTVLpqNX9xkE+6l6wqLB3IB9bF2BrdNG6VT55MZDMpB2f02UohSuNKfECJTy6Ap4JABZPvDKKNme1vrMdJytxwOxNcMfzSkvauW+VwFGVkXIXSx5crNjX+lIVLONTc9kMw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ztQMIKK1QgAon24JyvhB7M2drTvVDd80s14zBzHw9ok=; b=jjx/ggt5QqImZbyhgXrrZcW7NrUrfo5bpuzGhqY65WhkgkWb3SG9mEtYvG9yv4+CwRSyOWkvcg6mB3UeJU9UtB30djLv6s28Deya/vQ7EHTRH2RWcAd2M93vXNLEx4ShfQsNx4QcsjKVT0OXBn3zrqq5nyAiwjo3d+hfdd09ecEaa8yjCeB+GmryJXKPbPOtG/If5JQjordtzBJgiFZv0cx8bxke5r56/u9NxP5L805jMTEvPhQeecHBbzafEbNVevOBEv9MycWNIQeWUiXDi7Dfo+l+qM3Mtux6Zbk9Sf6KC0Yat5QXByZrKm2S/dXfmrSKQZDlxH0FtkDQdqDSIg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ztQMIKK1QgAon24JyvhB7M2drTvVDd80s14zBzHw9ok=; b=IMqDUqPuljcQ1nxtAQuw4tIepjcfFga6kWDTh8dIo9u75w5Nhjvu/x2ujf10Y6wjTIy6r643JJXsOdZoHbf6uyJewNHrxa/+C2O9MkUeiGUvaFU5020DCcmTluau1wlF0bKKPEWAS5etk4iRfqj+SwWvaH4b8wcDfsCJgfVrqvU=
Authentication-Results: cs.tcd.ie; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYCPR01MB6688.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:400:9d::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:33:57 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.019; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:33:57 +0000
Message-ID: <77c5c1c0-9f85-7549-e655-d1b464481535@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 09:33:54 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Stephen Farrell , Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch> <27f1b2a2-7f73-f4f8-0746-3b3feced4d3e@cs.tcd.ie>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
In-Reply-To: <27f1b2a2-7f73-f4f8-0746-3b3feced4d3e@cs.tcd.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0141.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::33) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from [192.168.1.6] (60.34.155.208) by TYAPR01CA0141.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2d::33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.15 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:33:56 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: bd595ac0-a77d-40d8-a550-08d99ccf4a52
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYCPR01MB6688:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:8273;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(346002)(366004)(39840400004)(376002)(396003)(136003)(86362001)(66476007)(52116002)(66946007)(2906002)(8676002)(31686004)(36916002)(38100700002)(8936002)(66556008)(38350700002)(956004)(2616005)(508600001)(53546011)(110136005)(31696002)(786003)(16576012)(316002)(186003)(296002)(5660300002)(26005)(6486002)(4744005)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?NExZdU1SaitqY2ZBR1JRUXlXa0c1aS9YaWk4eXk0dGdnZnIyUmhJNHdTNXV1?= =?utf-8?B?Mnp6UEROa3lDUzdUOEM3eEpXQ2ZYcGl5R0FoUUR5TlRGblRlU3NnczY5VUlC?= =?utf-8?B?ZGVHeXdXRVFLZE9DTEFWbzJ0clk5ZWlrckJHUlVpYWxyUGtMaEhlUTBrL25N?= =?utf-8?B?MWJSVzhNdUwyVmYrTnhlaFBiSnBEMng3ZGJ1aDJpUkZiWVhmM1RaKzdURnV5?= =?utf-8?B?UTNaTUZ5enE4ejFDUTVad0RxTDUrSXBDNlRVakVwdFZGbW5xUEZmUE04bWRV?= =?utf-8?B?NDh2VDFCeGpuRURxT1FzVGNyT2hwM2pTbWVSRlIwZ21JNUpZY3dVMFZOWmxL?= =?utf-8?B?aGxJTUR4NnNOU1NUbXBxckNMc2xLSDVadzBKVUZCWDBCYUREcHVFdU5VR29x?= =?utf-8?B?eXdGNFNta0VNRzdsUThMQnNDUHBBd3ZIbk1nUTdRSXJsT29NY1oxNk9Xc2d3?= =?utf-8?B?dldlNnVvUURxTkdLY2RLMVFBZytycEFTYlEvVnJXL0ExZ3A5c013Snhaa1Ew?= =?utf-8?B?QllvTDNrWmpHeVNzNnJWeldFTUpnZkpTR3VremFRT241cVZPbU9OUzZobkRX?= =?utf-8?B?cWkxRVdKRlhTL1ZjT0QyRFNOYXBINnNWY1hnM3E4VW9jcGJrRGNpUDFSbk1z?= =?utf-8?B?dU8zdk1PZWNPM3BXcmllTFpSNDk4ZGxYYWpyVTkxNXBpM1JZL1NOSkl1SnJK?= =?utf-8?B?NWxVejhLazNLb0VVd3NZR0pJVnp3cG5YbWVKQSthUHBMZnFjNjc3bit6eXFU?= =?utf-8?B?bS9GU0FQdnpxUzNaU3F4ZU9mUTJ0Q2ZhZFRXeEI5YmZZQ3dHTU5oVzc5elAw?= =?utf-8?B?RzVZNFREVU5semovWEtFMWRIQk9FN25LZTZ2M3JFRStpMTFCUkROemcwaDRF?= =?utf-8?B?NFdKVXY1L3ZrMTVHaW1TdGpSUXRsWXpFemNLQ3ZWMEdORnZjbEpzSjV1bHFZ?= =?utf-8?B?WHczRG4zMmk4bTE0aHZ2c0R4UktwQ291bTh0WGpjREtJbTFvc0NQdUd4bXQ2?= =?utf-8?B?Wk9SUU5vU05xNVZTa3FNZFE0czdhbmxtaXh0NlRVZ1NDWmMxOEptWlh3V2VH?= =?utf-8?B?ODhHWGtGV0FnWHVtZnMxWnUvVjU2dHZOd1hNQmdoRFNubjIwcFFFWXVHcUxF?= =?utf-8?B?TnFCWnZTck1ndDcrZjVGeFRNL2xUd0VaSUlLQllCSTlGalFHMEM4bG8wMElF?= =?utf-8?B?MnFaMWlxWkJVcTkzQTB1eDNrTnp4Q0FPT2VwTEJMMjh1a2JFTjVlL1RYQkNJ?= =?utf-8?B?RXducER5QkYwbXVDY2Jzd0c0VVh1aGgxb1FieTVtVDJBNzlwU0JNaUMvU05Z?= =?utf-8?B?ZEVDMjJya1ozWGw2aFdldDQzN3ROaWZKUTVDeGM4RUZLUitjamV2Rk8yMFhD?= =?utf-8?B?MThsSmo1eTJuSVlYWTQxUTF6TE5lVU5KUHhKY1Q4NGxuZXljbmsyRXA1WmFz?= =?utf-8?B?dkRra09LYmJqYUQyNTVuL1pkOTIremNpSTMrOWJzOEdXS3M4cUQrcWVYalNW?= =?utf-8?B?K2k5d29CcjNHVXFrc3dTdGRTWXdoYXVGVGtzem5UNUg5SlVWUEZTenhyU2I1?= =?utf-8?B?NElXMkdGdWFCaWxNdG40ZkZsYis3NSs5VmJWZkdLaE4zWnZMTGlkVm1rajlw?= =?utf-8?B?TDk4dFF0OUFvM3BnbnBONC9WQTNFR0NRSzNVUVFSSzVNMzhnMWd2TlJEbVk4?= =?utf-8?B?MVBVenhUalZpZEpyZWM0aDR2V2JKdEJGWkJ2ajExVlRRSnRQZ2dIZ1RTT3gx?= =?utf-8?B?eUxqNlRaUlZKdXZieWJCalFCOVZ1QlFsZ3JkQzhnM2RsYmVuUVhNY0EzVXd2?= =?utf-8?B?YWk1ZFJQUlF1VTBZR3pXZm9mTWIycmYyWitqb1VuaTRsVndhSG5MRWNSRUxr?= =?utf-8?B?Wm1PUzZuUHJJY2QxL1BUMFV3UlMrdUY4Y01qTTBHRTJFbmlhWU5YZ3VrcEx2?= =?utf-8?B?dlRtNVJDUDBkSE51enZxdVB6dSt0ZitHZmppejFqcnFhUGJWN3RhbmZUZEp3?= =?utf-8?B?NVNBa2VCUmtMQVhVR2VaNU5IaHNLa2NuMS80RHlhSGNaREhIT0NnRkdoTm1k?= =?utf-8?B?Q3lndzFIU3owZDNnOWZNbFhWZzdBZUc3b3VSdlozZzZMRFdVY284NkFwMW5R?= =?utf-8?B?d281V3R4UTE4aWJGdWMyN2xJTVpTa2ljQ01Nc0JVMHpZNDh5ZXh0YUtnQWVF?= =?utf-8?Q?KKmGYep9u79zEo87GeeTXs8=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bd595ac0-a77d-40d8-a550-08d99ccf4a52
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2021 00:33:57.0899 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: EVhHXxQMCU466J4GEI9kmSTzEo0Y9AwO5g+OZqNj1eD1LAbjMClGSb+L9DuGB0A3XINUvM+e5zELSfmopBDRSg==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYCPR01MB6688
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 00:34:05 -0000

On 2021-11-01 06:19, Stephen Farrell wrote:

> On this one:
> 
> On 31/10/2021 13:13, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>      Remove word ultimate     No support (some against)
> 
> I expressed a similar opinion in my review so I do support
> removing that term. The community is what needs to be (and
> be seen to be) "ultimately" responsible for everything in
> this entire context. If not, we could be setting ourselves
> up for future capture.

I also support the removal of this word (or a rewording to avoid this 
word) in this context.

Regards,    Martin.


From nobody Sun Oct 31 17:54:19 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726323A0883 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 17:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=K5y7bPHn; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ECzXoalX
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bo8yjVR1qDgc for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 17:54:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CED563A0880 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 17:54:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E485C00AD; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:54:12 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=8 NzEo0bWiWRIMbK34Zef2Kj1zH7aZVh26zFs5knzH0M=; b=K5y7bPHn9ERbxPgnL FIvKdj0LqSlBuYSJG0XzXZl2chty0q1RTQbg1ty58VTvMqNHAUCcg0HgNUjZ/4bk PNihvwVlM/9jMxQA1/YIGEP+S2QJK03S5FvtDH3FOS25167PvhZnfAmZAzTPKAOY uZ96xRxXikoY51UnCuIAyk7JRPoxL7Z9BTjBWfgLD+IXXRhgS0qHZos7oLYD/Jjb uxezwgBzj2J0xjribMJ/OrQ5RT8DIdOn3pu4R9K1gIJ7RAhcc/upSn/zwnsYPVTQ 5bOpW9k9asYPKvvXCe+6xmldCn9t4h9/13t8w8xj4sIX9PcYCWbXz6AmEJSOYyKz 0+/tA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=8NzEo0bWiWRIMbK34Zef2Kj1zH7aZVh26zFs5knzH 0M=; b=ECzXoalXUefvwqkqX3DHV5IO6hKC4ecwg+XEl3oOJuzmBBRYzw+/zhhWw jTY1jK1UBYmwlhc5Hk1amQTCDbI0hXmJRxVMaKiZV+7fCzlBVOmRdfSpHh4mAwOb XIFv1C5+pChYhElSJt4WwxQcwHxaCCbiRCxhA59kPrx3qI3A5tzwxYOce54rlpLb UAsdcHUThmfiS5Mc+RMV7sSkKz1QIXDpwxcL/g/FKzoQluYBowz4wNXUB3wSCMn0 4P18G8N/lzuDMIhh547QeklqlLza+lDPdTn3EV1WqbFVY/5L3M4wbq6sJa1rch7X AY5oO8Lio9kJTXNLug0Xffues22/Q==
X-ME-Sender:  
X-ME-Received: 
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdehuddgvdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeekjefgtdffhedttefhtdevgfetvdehuddtlefftdehieejudekvefhfeeiffdv ueenucffohhmrghinhepjhhlrdhlhidpihgrsgdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy:    
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:54:09 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\))
From: Mark Nottingham 
In-Reply-To: <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 11:54:09 +1100
Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
To: Eliot Lear 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 00:54:19 -0000

Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in the =
RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. Maybe =
it's a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's something =
much more substantial.

I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a =
good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there is =
no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc., =
and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is =
non-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.

In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should =
be as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, =
consensus, and oversight.=20

The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC be =
published. If it does, I think we've failed.

If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how =
that kind of thing is authorised.=20

One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position to =
enact this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit of what =
we're doing here.

Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them =
to do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility.=20

Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, =
with buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.

Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal (and =
if so, why)?

Cheers,


> On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>=20
> We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>    *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>=20
> And then we say:
>=20
>>=20
>>    Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the
>>    following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):
>>=20
>>    *  Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs
>>=20
>>    *  Publication formats for the RFC Series
>>=20
>>    *  Changes to the RFC style guide
>>=20
>>    *  Series-wide guidelines regarding document content and quality
>>=20
>>    *  Web presence for the RFC Series
>>=20
>>    *  Copyright matters related to the RFC Series
>>=20
>>    *  Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs
>=20
> So here we have an example of indexing.  The only issue is when a =
commitment is needed.  In that case, either the RPC has the authority, =
the ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek the authority.  =
And then the question turns to whom.
>=20
> Am I missing something?
>=20
> Eliot =20
>=20
> On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.=20
>>=20
>> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a =
lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be =
by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would =
still retain change control over the output, of course, but it would =
enable things like this to make progress.
>>=20
>> Does that makes sense?
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>>=20
>> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley 
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google =
Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various =
coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can =
get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then =
it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, =
to make the changes to fix it? ...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC =
Responsibilities",
>>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by =
the
>>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then =
the
>>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting =
the
>>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>>>>=20
>>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The =
RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, =
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen =
to extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it =
because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>>>=20
>>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the =
RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then =
consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>>>=20
>>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems =
on their own and assign those problems directly to people who can =
address them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a =
recipe for paralysis.
>>>>=20
>>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new =
model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC =
(with support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6) =
 As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is =
solely an implementation issue.
>>>=20
>>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities =
of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are =
not part of that.
>>>=20
>>> Jay
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> John Levine,=20
>>>> johnl@taugh.com
>>>> , Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
>>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.=20
>>>> https://jl.ly
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Jay Daley
>>> IETF Executive Director
>>>=20
>>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>=20
>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>> --
>> Mark Nottingham  =20
>> https://www.mnot.net/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
> 

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


From nobody Sun Oct 31 18:54:01 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5823A09DB for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zk45UW8LPiId for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:53:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED2A63A09D4 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id i3so3821923lfu.4 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=TgniRsD8CNABDIOyoT1ju1IY2Pf6VEJIrIg8aiQls0g=; b=hHfzgtz5V/4zjRMO6USFynPOMKviHLvWRqM/KJti3cRT0yDLxfqi0B2NyMvF4IPweR 30BRh39goR9SdU119TsJjDdtJwB8vB3ChbVO2TwGiezl6+WwoF6vhAh6yFhPhXLWMflq M9if5AYINNJmV7L6GW+u5SPDAsRnnEhwUhzW76SexD1qsjvovHIUNDHfM3t6ODTvS8ce NUD8F5mSYGzydZCbYmFMSx5Sa3jVhGKod3xIZHA9R/VsAzqIhogSSVDbTXnnUsUX4V19 O5xpgC/fAwivvWcn+YqNLwg995xBkiLiJ3Wpo9bqg6jWj9mJ8BWseWnHqoW0AhhAOMDX ohVA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=TgniRsD8CNABDIOyoT1ju1IY2Pf6VEJIrIg8aiQls0g=; b=v9czsiqiYOqCZq3iiw9qPNeAvI7bhMnMS8F9wRg/kpXFXF/LbU6HzjU1/4s9QSt7To Q8ymZtmLS2EiTKKRoeRFgeVl8t3pceaIWl7lLgdJbTwGU2nCPfJPpAv6/wZdV6nic0Ju JGd2W/jPsm8I/MyNw6hu9D2xKuaiXDGKhCI/HEOEMxi5hq9tWyzkaoB6bvzfK+mnOpUX 543MgKhwKgL8FWreJUL2mo8XPzGBJGJ/I4SuaaSiSmIb0EH6lp7kAY3yLxuApQYm+JmQ LBOx+j69rePujBKobRuLtQXnNKiXJbpb7gnqTxPxIJNsRitZrn4gDD4fH99VVg23ubzb tnEQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vTjcAGQ9s6C1hCpKZInBpZlOjnNzk3jgLZx2PYvQqVU7YERUv r/JgA5PPJwYyK4CJRPn0Sgq3OojMejKrqXx7mQhMspA20OraPg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4LDpunjJkPwlcfsMGYbCIG9gxPcH/45Jhj4dyr6aVtUPs6E4AJRlziJSXzyMdlzNAUT6wjFFi31si7lzGiqE=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:ad1:: with SMTP id n17mr24921449lfu.247.1635731628940;  Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:53:48 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> 
In-Reply-To: 
From: "StJohns, Michael" 
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:53:37 -0400
Message-ID: 
To: rfced-future@iab.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0ed5205cfb072cb"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 01:54:00 -0000

--000000000000b0ed5205cfb072cb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry - gmail reply went wrong.  This is still applicable - it=E2=80=99s no=
t an
RSWG responsibility and expanding their remit in this way is restarting the
division of labor discussions in a way that will probably not end well.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: StJohns, Michael 
Date: Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 04:00
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
To: Mark Nottingham 


Top posting due to iPad.

This makes no sense,  the RSWG does not bless anything, it proposes.   The
RSAB disposes/approves.  It it=E2=80=99s a decision that needs to be made i=
n the
short term it is pretty much b6 definition tactical, and is therefore not
the purview of the RSWG.   If the members of the RSWG disagree with a
tactical decision, they can propose an override, write a document and
attempt to get the RSAB to approve it.  It does not by itself get to impose
policy in any wa6 shape or form.

Not sure what the solution to Johns question is, but this isn=E2=80=99t it.

Mike

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 21:14 Mark Nottingham  wrote:

> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.
>
> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lightweigh=
t
> way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the RPC, th=
e
> RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still retain
> change control over the output, of course, but it would enable things lik=
e
> this to make progress.
>
> Does that makes sense?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>
>
>
> > On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> >>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google
> Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various
> coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can g=
et
> them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it
> breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, to
> make the changes to fix it? ...
> >>
> >>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
> >>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC
> Responsibilities",
> >>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
> >>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
> >>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
> >>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
> >>
> >> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The RP=
C
> is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because,
> unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen t=
o
> extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it becaus=
e
> I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
> >>
> >> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the RPC
> to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consult t=
he
> RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
> >>
> >> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on
> their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address
> them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for
> paralysis.
> >
> > As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new model
> focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with
> support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)  As th=
e Google Scholar issue is
> solely one of distribution, then it is solely an implementation issue.
> >
> > We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of
> the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not
> part of that.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
> >> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
> https://jl.ly
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rfced-future mailing list
> >> Rfced-future@iab.org
> >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Jay Daley
> > IETF Executive Director
> > exec-director@ietf.org
> >
> > --
> > Rfced-future mailing list
> > Rfced-future@iab.org
> > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--000000000000b0ed5205cfb072cb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Sorry - gmail reply went wrong.=C2=A0 This is still appli=
cable - it=E2=80=99s not an RSWG responsibility and expanding their remit i=
n this way is restarting the division of labor discussions in a way that wi=
ll probably not end well. =C2=A0

<=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------=

From: StJohns, Michael<=
/strong> <m=
sj@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 04:00Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure<=
br>To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>


Top posting due to iPad.



On Thu, O=
ct 28, 2021 at 21:14 Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too. 



What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lightweight =
way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the RPC, the =
RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still retain chang=
e control over the output, of course, but it would enable things like this =
to make progress.



Does that makes sense?



Cheers,





* I.e., without publishing an RFC.







> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

>> 

>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that G=
oogle Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, vari=
ous coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can=
 get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but the=
n it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, =
to make the changes to fix it? ...

>> 

>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Pol=
icies",

>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 &qu=
ot;RPC Responsibilities",

>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagg=
ed by the

>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving=
 it is then the

>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consu=
lting the

>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.

>> 

>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.=C2=
=A0 The RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it=
 because, unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn=
9;t happen to extend to the details of web indexing.=C2=A0 (I happen to kno=
w about it because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)

>> 

>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the=
 RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consul=
t the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.

>> 

>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems =
on their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address t=
hem.=C2=A0 Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for =
paralysis.

> 

> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new mode=
l focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with sup=
port from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)=C2=A0 As th=
e Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is solely an =
implementation issue.

> 

> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of=
 the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not pa=
rt of that.

> 

> Jay

> 

> 

>> 

>> Regards,

>> John Levine, =
johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY

>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly<=
br>
>> 

>> -- 

>> Rfced-future mailing list

>> Rfced-fu=
ture@iab.org

>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfce=
d-future

>> 

> 

> -- 

> Jay Daley

> IETF Executive Director

> exec-direc=
tor@ietf.org

> 

> -- 

> Rfced-future mailing list

> Rfced-future=
@iab.org

> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-fut=
ure



--

Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future





--000000000000b0ed5205cfb072cb--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 19:05:07 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BED63A0A46 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:05:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.896
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IBA6ufd3DBIF for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85FE53A0A41 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id b10so7531072ilj.10 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2D1+7Vqu5WD+BTAUm0wAcNTSpPnVdKDEXXZReCCkYis=; b=w3VtfW96g42DcSe75DvIXNWcr1bN+QVBT2zGSHtmsC3kqWLlMjQrTq7dmimiyGpqEt +ZAImIU80m7q1c8b4V+C8gCMTHgQu62dxil1q2oJM4eDOIAh3ceJtDBjzrSkmrbpcZ1t aNu0wyhvYY3ficKahGBsrnyrxz6amLy1HcR8akuFloLfqWuUcCWtRlGgckcLLqfEMlEp k+JJnA82VAqaKlsLqnVO5Wy6+UG4JdByhzzIQcwtPOEdiQPw2CTIhRypbgKxcXRKFDsW IJg4mXRHDTUrWnv0qqRECk1Kn5MKinqiaS5Ypd81Cbgw6K91FKARSJV3A2w1vN4tcyfj 35WA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2D1+7Vqu5WD+BTAUm0wAcNTSpPnVdKDEXXZReCCkYis=; b=l6Me55nf0g2Fz9aj5Nt8zHxST8aoW08ABWOOORLSniUyQXzBWFyiTrdnS6Bro37zvI Z8xN1jXUSJfOYMlFLQHY40I2xAJ6VgfZkzoqQ2MNz6lW672VCEVRhPkIa0x9jGomZxLv iXlc7qFgRout718aHxTcGnutHRro1sSzLmM8HP1NiEEjVlqLQa52qgNZxXgulzQDyufU ToYtnBJ5WVY6RpyLOyhohBhe+GQqothEL9XMGxCthJ9lz5eAa22iVLqUsFOGYmYl20+X it03TndjbKLoiiYBSFWcPIPnYHZVDu8MH5VSAuCzLvYLPmZoXlwK5V+Z5FAeMK8wDvQR J6Sw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FQgB7x4RMzNpOkPjBED8gzsPDGZQ7OgT7dk6dHigLEvIbc9N0 tERLEVMo7MxNfO5YhNSLEMuRGED7vErP/bHdnBGcVQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1O8j1IH1TfQ+dCAsWmR7CnYyO+zn7CmkimA+DNGOMAvF28f532wzHHGrAtCN5OB1WMVAG8TJNcI2fDlKDTmc=
X-Received: by 2002:a92:c051:: with SMTP id o17mr17842887ilf.276.1635732297030;  Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:04:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:04:20 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Mark Nottingham 
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000832f0c05cfb09a8a"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 02:05:06 -0000

--000000000000832f0c05cfb09a8a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 5:54 PM Mark Nottingham  wrote:

> Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in the
> RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. Maybe it'=
s
> a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's something much mo=
re
> substantial.
>
> I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a goo=
d
> idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there is no
> financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc., and
> the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is
> non-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.
>
> In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should be
> as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, consensus,
> and oversight.
>
> The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC be
> published. If it does, I think we've failed.
>
> If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how
> that kind of thing is authorised.
>
> One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position to
> enact this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit of what
> we're doing here.
>
> Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them to
> do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility.
>
> Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, with
> buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.
>

This is what I would have expected. I agree it doesn't need an RFC. Maybe
just some kind of LC + RSAB signoff?

-Ekr

>
> Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal (and i=
f
> so, why)?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> > On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> >
> > We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>    *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
> >
> > And then we say:
> >
> >>
> >>    Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the
> >>    following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):
> >>
> >>    *  Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs
> >>
> >>    *  Publication formats for the RFC Series
> >>
> >>    *  Changes to the RFC style guide
> >>
> >>    *  Series-wide guidelines regarding document content and quality
> >>
> >>    *  Web presence for the RFC Series
> >>
> >>    *  Copyright matters related to the RFC Series
> >>
> >>    *  Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs
> >
> > So here we have an example of indexing.  The only issue is when a
> commitment is needed.  In that case, either the RPC has the authority, th=
e
> ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek the authority.  And the=
n
> the question turns to whom.
> >
> > Am I missing something?
> >
> > Eliot
> >
> > On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> >> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.
> >>
> >> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a
> lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by
> the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would sti=
ll
> retain change control over the output, of course, but it would enable
> things like this to make progress.
> >>
> >> Does that makes sense?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >>
> >> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley 
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine 
> >>>>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google
> Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various
> coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can g=
et
> them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it
> breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, to
> make the changes to fix it? ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
> >>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC
> Responsibilities",
> >>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
> >>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the
> >>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the
> >>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
> >>>>>
> >>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The
> RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because,
> unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen t=
o
> extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it becaus=
e
> I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
> >>>>
> >>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the
> RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consu=
lt
> the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
> >>>>
> >>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on
> their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address
> them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for
> paralysis.
> >>>>
> >>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new
> model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (wi=
th
> support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)  As th=
e Google Scholar issue is
> solely one of distribution, then it is solely an implementation issue.
> >>>
> >>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities o=
f
> the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not
> part of that.
> >>>
> >>> Jay
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> John Levine,
> >>>> johnl@taugh.com
> >>>> , Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
> >>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
> >>>> https://jl.ly
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Rfced-future mailing list
> >>>>
> >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
> >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> Jay Daley
> >>> IETF Executive Director
> >>>
> >>> exec-director@ietf.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Rfced-future mailing list
> >>>
> >>> Rfced-future@iab.org
> >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
> >> --
> >> Mark Nottingham
> >> https://www.mnot.net/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > 
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

--000000000000832f0c05cfb09a8a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 5:54 PM Mark =
Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote=
:
Let's say =
that I, as a member of the community and a participant in the RSWG, had an =
idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. Maybe it's a change =
to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's something much more =
substantial.



I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's=
 a good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that ther=
e is no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc=
., and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is no=
n-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.



In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should be a=
s low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, consensus, and=
 oversight. 



The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC be pub=
lished. If it does, I think we've failed.



If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how =
that kind of thing is authorised. 



One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position to en=
act this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit of what =
we're doing here.



Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them to d=
o it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility. 



Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, wi=
th buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.

This is what I would have expected. I agr=
ee it doesn't need an RFC. Maybe just some kind of LC + RSAB signoff?

-Ekr



Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal (and if =
so, why)?



Cheers,





> On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

> 

> We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:

> 

> 

> 

> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 If requested, provide expert advice to the RP=
C and IETF LLC

> 

> And then we say:

> 

>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could in=
clude the

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):

>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs<=
br>
>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Publication formats for the RFC Series

>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Changes to the RFC style guide

>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Series-wide guidelines regarding document con=
tent and quality

>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Web presence for the RFC Series

>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Copyright matters related to the RFC Series
>> 

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFC=
s

> 

> So here we have an example of indexing.=C2=A0 The only issue is when a=
 commitment is needed.=C2=A0 In that case, either the RPC has the authority=
, the ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek the authority.=C2=
=A0 And then the question turns to whom.

> 

> Am I missing something?

> 

> Eliot=C2=A0 

> 

> On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:

>> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too. 

>> 

>> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lig=
htweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the =
RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still ret=
ain change control over the output, of course, but it would enable things l=
ike this to make progress.

>> 

>> Does that makes sense?

>> 

>> Cheers,

>> 

>> 

>> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org>

>>>=C2=A0 wrote:

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>

>>>>=C2=A0 wrote:

>>>> 

>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

>>>> 

>>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issu=
e that Google Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem =
is, various coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I ho=
pe I can get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do=
 but then it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if n=
eed be, to make the changes to fix it? ...

>>>>>> 

>>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Spec=
ific Policies",

>>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and=
 4.3 "RPC Responsibilities",

>>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the probl=
em flagged by the

>>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar",=
 solving it is then the

>>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably invol=
ve consulting the

>>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this cle=
ar.

>>>>> 

>>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many ye=
ars.=C2=A0 The RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to=
 fix it because, unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues d=
oesn't happen to extend to the details of web indexing.=C2=A0 (I happen=
 to know about it because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)

>>>> 

>>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then =
tell the RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, the=
n consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.

>>>> 

>>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small p=
roblems on their own and assign those problems directly to people who can a=
ddress them.=C2=A0 Running everything through two committees is truly a rec=
ipe for paralysis.

>>>> 

>>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the =
new model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (=
with support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)=C2=
=A0 As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is s=
olely an implementation issue.

>>> 

>>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibil=
ities of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters ar=
e not part of that.

>>> 

>>> Jay

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>> Regards,

>>>> John Levine, 

>>>> johnl=
@taugh.com

>>>> , Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY

>>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail=
. 

>>>> https://jl.ly

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> -- 

>>>> Rfced-future mailing list

>>>> 

>>>> =
Rfced-future@iab.org

>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listin=
fo/rfced-future

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>> -- 

>>> Jay Daley

>>> IETF Executive Director

>>> 

>>> ex=
ec-director@ietf.org

>>> 

>>> 

>>> -- 

>>> Rfced-future mailing list

>>> 

>>> Rfce=
d-future@iab.org

>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/r=
fced-future

>> --

>> Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0

>> https://www.mnot.net/

>> 

>> 

>> 

> <OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>



--

Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/



-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.=
org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future




--000000000000832f0c05cfb09a8a--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 19:21:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21503A0AA5 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=TAyWpK+k; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=HUtvOUiG
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFSrthAfRs7y for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:21:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13DBD3A0A90 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:21:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 90290 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2021 02:21:28 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=160ac.617f4f28.k2110; bh=3NwmvI8Pa3a3LBkzNdg4znPr4+Jxkl6BWcJYAmc6+i8=; b=TAyWpK+kUVLpvflnSyBaILsQfFHHFHsuL8BdZFFduboqzbu0MI0DAIKBU2ABYssPkJ7H1hVZZ6hh9SrOJK21b0zOYqgCnW1YHYsol/OlFjuQapJdPrRGMUaqS0GhtA9qvehJiGOXHISd3kzPzW0OwAfFzEd9O/GFoHbiMQSLFfyrbpgtgnORZVC5S6SzQa/vch1XZ5KB8WFmgQQCE5OMAGpSUVAwogddgT/lNdiGnSyt42GEApUdGd74oiHM5JaRVskPZup7YBidijGnLwKtAybs0dk/+uL1uPT+7pByy8epSXMaHgVPfr9ac7pNyjHON6smmJmj2SLz+yf2L8Wo2w==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=160ac.617f4f28.k2110; bh=3NwmvI8Pa3a3LBkzNdg4znPr4+Jxkl6BWcJYAmc6+i8=; b=HUtvOUiGH6WM68RTDb23qAEGptxL3Cw/80zJtuVcSDi+NcyMG1PfzaATNnT+lze3HJFAA05YciDVJbHP5PWuCmPQdoCqZIeiSehaS2LE4QPDUKet2R4ei2iZmxPzyx9gOOKTixWXL7AZY2uYY7thf/GpR++89Ng3+fkTYbllZk2LXg7p4mIwSva4UITiKGHSC5WCvwDcDgR5OYK9A99Qgt8cTKw6GIthDeP6tpwSvB85W7vx0ooUJtqgrrSDOA9yJSPowTACdoch1McnqiOXRTlM3axTSXeWFsxIceop7o3fj08uWQ/c2Tu4qMjGXIrGBVQTsH6VKsAx+TrIOq9v9A==
Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Nov 2021 02:21:27 -0000
Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2F1232F5BD56; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 22:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93242F5BD38; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 22:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
Date: 31 Oct 2021 22:21:26 -0400
Message-ID: 
From: "John R Levine" 
To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Eliot Lear" 
Cc: "Jay Daley" , rfced-future@iab.org
X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy
In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 02:21:37 -0000

> Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in the RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. Maybe it's a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's something much more substantial.
>
> I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there is no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc., and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is non-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.
>
> In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should be as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, consensus, and oversight.
>
> The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC be published. If it does, I think we've failed.
>
> If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how that kind of thing is authorised.
>
> One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position to enact this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit of what we're doing here.
>
> Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them to do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility.
>
> Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, with buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.
>
> Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal (and if so, why)?

This is what I meant when I said no individual is empowered to do 
anything, which likely leads to paralysis.

Maybe it's the RSCE, maybe the RSWG can tap someone to be the Approver of 
Small Things, but I can tell you from experience that there is a constant 
stream of small things and someone needs to be able to dispatch them 
without making a bureaucrating process out of it.

If the question is how will the Approver know what is a small thing and 
what needs more process, the answer is to pick someone competent who knows 
the difference.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly


From nobody Sun Oct 31 19:28:02 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F173A0B00 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:28:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zttIWZiED4IL for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1AE13A0AE7 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908644A40EB7; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PfOTbvQAzpJJ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B6544A37A77; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Daley 
Message-Id: 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_819A0D35-2517-43CF-A52A-77423501BA12"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\))
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:27:46 +1300
In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine 
To: Mark Nottingham 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 02:28:00 -0000

--Apple-Mail=_819A0D35-2517-43CF-A52A-77423501BA12
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8



> On 1/11/2021, at 1:54 PM, Mark Nottingham  wrote:
>=20
> Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in =
the RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. =
Maybe it's a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's =
something much more substantial.
>=20
> I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a =
good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there is =
no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc., =
and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is =
non-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.
>=20
> In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should =
be as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, =
consensus, and oversight.=20
>=20
> The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC =
be published. If it does, I think we've failed.
>=20
> If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how =
that kind of thing is authorised.=20
>=20
> One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position =
to enact this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit of =
what we're doing here.
>=20
> Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them =
to do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility.=20

This is what I expect and this is specifically why I introduced text =
ages ago about the RPC publishing a work plan and priorities, them =
asking for community feedback on that and RSAB sign-off. =20

No matter what the process is, people will talk to the RPC and if the =
RPC agree then they will want to do it.  It is unworkable if they have =
to get agreement to add a new type of RSS feed.=20

>=20
> Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, =
with buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.

I don=E2=80=99t because the examples given are far too operational for =
the RSWG to be involved in.  If we do this then we=E2=80=99re creating a =
charter for every bikeshedder to press their claim in the RSWG, which =
would not be good for either the RSWG or the RPC.

If on the other hand this is for the "much more substantial" side to =
your examples then we=E2=80=99re opening an eight lane bypass for the =
whole RSWG/RSAB process.

>=20
> Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal =
(and if so, why)?

For me, the correct way to deal with this is to address your point that =
"there isn=E2=80=99t adequate oversight or visibility" for the way the =
RPC take on board recommendations by providing a clear mechanism for =
community scrutiny.  However, we=E2=80=99ve been through that in depth =
before and agreed to remove it entirely and leave the LLC to provide =
that function.

Jay

>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>> We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>   *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>=20
>> And then we say:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>   Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the
>>>   following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):
>>>=20
>>>   *  Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs
>>>=20
>>>   *  Publication formats for the RFC Series
>>>=20
>>>   *  Changes to the RFC style guide
>>>=20
>>>   *  Series-wide guidelines regarding document content and quality
>>>=20
>>>   *  Web presence for the RFC Series
>>>=20
>>>   *  Copyright matters related to the RFC Series
>>>=20
>>>   *  Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs
>>=20
>> So here we have an example of indexing.  The only issue is when a =
commitment is needed.  In that case, either the RPC has the authority, =
the ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek the authority.  =
And then the question turns to whom.
>>=20
>> Am I missing something?
>>=20
>> Eliot =20
>>=20
>> On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.=20
>>>=20
>>> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a =
lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be =
by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would =
still retain change control over the output, of course, but it would =
enable things like this to make progress.
>>>=20
>>> Does that makes sense?
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google =
Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various =
coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can =
get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then =
it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, =
to make the changes to fix it? ...
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>>>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC =
Responsibilities",
>>>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by =
the
>>>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then =
the
>>>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting =
the
>>>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  =
The RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it =
because, unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues =
doesn't happen to extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to =
know about it because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the =
RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then =
consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems =
on their own and assign those problems directly to people who can =
address them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a =
recipe for paralysis.
>>>>>=20
>>>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new =
model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC =
(with support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6) =
 As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is =
solely an implementation issue.
>>>>=20
>>>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities =
of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are =
not part of that.
>>>>=20
>>>> Jay
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> John Levine,=20
>>>>> johnl@taugh.com
>>>>> , Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
>>>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.=20
>>>>> https://jl.ly
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Jay Daley
>>>> IETF Executive Director
>>>>=20
>>>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>> --
>>> Mark Nottingham  =20
>>> https://www.mnot.net/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> 
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ 
--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_819A0D35-2517-43CF-A52A-77423501BA12
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8



On 1/11/2021, at 1:54 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> =
wrote:

Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a =
participant in the RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor =
web site. Maybe it's a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe =
it's something much more substantial.

I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing =
people it's a good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume =
that there is no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a =
web site, etc., and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and =
operational burden is non-existent to =
slight-but-eminantly-manageable.

In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community =
contribution should be as low as is possible *while* still assuring =
adequate review, consensus, and oversight. 

The first question is whether =
making that happen demands that an RFC be published. If it does, I think =
we've failed.

If it doesn't =
require an RFC being published, the next question is how that kind of =
thing is authorised. 

One answer would be for me to =
petition the RSCE to use their position to enact this. I think that's =
inappropriate, and against the spirit of what we're doing =
here.

Another =
answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them to do it. =
Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility. 

This is =
what I expect and this is specifically why I introduced text ages ago =
about the RPC publishing a work plan and priorities, them asking for =
community feedback on that and RSAB sign-off.  

No matter what the process is, people will talk to =
the RPC and if the RPC agree then they will want to do it.  It is =
unworkable if they have to get agreement to add a new type of RSS =
feed. 


Another =
answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, with buy-in =
from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.

I don=E2=80=99=
t because the examples given are far too operational for the RSWG to be =
involved in.  If we do this then we=E2=80=99re creating a charter =
for every bikeshedder to press their claim in the RSWG, which would not =
be good for either the RSWG or the RPC.

If on the other hand this is for the "much more =
substantial" side to your examples then we=E2=80=99re opening an eight =
lane bypass for the whole RSWG/RSAB process.


Is there another way to do this? =
Do people disagree with this goal (and if so, why)?

For me, the =
correct way to deal with this is to address your point that "there =
isn=E2=80=99t adequate oversight or visibility" for the way the RPC take =
on board recommendations by providing a clear mechanism for community =
scrutiny.  However, we=E2=80=99ve been through that in depth before =
and agreed to remove it entirely and leave the LLC to provide that =
function.

Jay


Cheers,


On 29 =
Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

We =
say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:




  *  If requested, provide =
expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC

And then we say:


  Matters on which the =
RSCE might be consulted could include the
  following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):

  *  Editing, processing, and =
publication of RFCs

  * =
 Publication formats for the RFC Series

  *  Changes to the RFC style guide

  *  Series-wide guidelines =
regarding document content and quality

  *  Web presence for the RFC Series

  *  Copyright matters related =
to the RFC Series

  * =
 Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs

So here we have an example of =
indexing.  The only issue is when a commitment is needed.  In =
that case, either the RPC has the authority, the ED has the authority, =
or the ED and RPC must seek the authority.  And then the question =
turns to whom.

Am I missing something?

Eliot  

On =
29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
This area has been a concern in the back of my =
mind too. 

What might be really interesting is if the =
RSWG were to have a lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or =
effort -- whether it be by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or =
group of them). It would still retain change control over the output, of =
course, but it would enable things like this to make progress.

Does that makes sense?

Cheers,


* I.e., =
without publishing an RFC.



On 29 =
Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org>
wrote:




On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 =
PM, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that =
Google Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, =
various coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I =
hope I can get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I =
do but then it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and =
if need be, to make the changes to fix it? ...

The language in sections 4.2 =
"Implementation-Specific Policies",
(proposed to become =
"Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibilities",
isn't =
exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the
community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is =
then the
RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably =
involve consulting the
RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or =
two making this clear.

We have =
known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The RPC is =
as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, =
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen =
to extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about =
it because I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then =
tell the RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, =
then consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.

We need to have people with the authority to solve small =
problems on their own and assign those problems directly to people who =
can address them.  Running everything through two committees is =
truly a recipe for paralysis.

As=
 I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new model =
focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with =
support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6) =
 As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it =
is solely an implementation issue.

We need =
to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of the RSE =
are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not part of =
that.

Jay



Regards,John Levine, 
johnl@taugh.com
, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please =
consider the environment before reading this e-mail. 
https://jl.ly


-- 
Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director

exec-director@ietf.org


-- 
Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--
Mark Nottingham   
https://www.mnot.net/



<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>

--
Mark =
Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/



-- 
Jay =
Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_819A0D35-2517-43CF-A52A-77423501BA12--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 19:30:39 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEF83A0B15 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.33
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id op-avY0I6x7c for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr60092.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.6.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D49E3A0B08 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 19:30:30 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YMmrhh83sLkTZpR5pWzYQWBUZG0LLjsXx/itj5VqFxPkNlMXusU7CEQtXElW75GY5SJYfG/dpmTHX1Yy9oM6hAcJihty+uMUlJ60YlssBnL7j7HtgAu0gf7KETFc2wGGeNarQkBofWss8Ed18hLrxmcTavP9YUHD36o5rnNEGPbU6t623ezkW+U4AfuJc5LUsq4GTMFJTLlY9NbDl6/v5sMYC6s1MKawJSO52cYZ4BRm4zH/xj2FOiYaasZqyGYcxGmFmHFU0gufDzhmKcPhdTaXkzYJPb2tMofRNUBEJFmw0+m4ayP9+TO1j0XLDKerLtdX3t18bXmfEDeB1f7fHg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;  s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=335GQOGc63JnbFT9C+0B3v7zFZOxdDUHwonLVyg0aHg=; b=FiVotdGHQ4juBzKG+UyriZ/v36w/mkF4oh314qkLdNQIKZ0hQHRR2L9Wz6KxNyAcCVrfAom0r8CdGW9RDjhVv2VD4Jw5rRJFxD4R4wS8lzH6/ta1tUa3I0B8wfS7QPc7f6Ld9L55PswcfLVrlZlJ5RIAlNGIYkKt1F/Q3I8LNFwWUoxDX89KFfzGCMA7ORCStFEb9Sm5/rp1e2HBHtCVSNBXcIJHJF2lseQC6DqhMyDz0f0K8X5MLYNwWcDfxluciTW4cSGVc1Zkj3d3JxqmrSpFU90Xp8rnByyh7dDZIwD//owZvMcb/BkUsR105FwViQm/t0cifFXb3KV1tbnvDQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=335GQOGc63JnbFT9C+0B3v7zFZOxdDUHwonLVyg0aHg=; b=I+V1WOichGVPrmlE2W5YhS1BiLnPYgBLy6DKdV3qZ8Tv7BJxOqCVaA40MlLoOmYjwgfj3ZnHalb92O0m4wtRp957fP1ufKnEfs1iKI9eT/iwiCzat7Pb23EmdEkiLCG86H4RqXrZf1u9qunt+8DZv1cdpknamzVJv/ARPfOtH8snt4XE1nDQ7XS52tVtTBjXmCYUMObMND+Dq0j8fKfs0P8kTFJLNc7TYOPafmINkDI9TB3v0wexEA98nHYoQGtbpu5ra2CLRndbR0dv2KJqqDMOsIAIVIv7JVR1m4mPoj3GiyqgHU8et2TwwTvaemppCniWdkHNvUAjYezZ3Tszmg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR02MB3223.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:20::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.13; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 02:30:26 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.019; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 02:30:26 +0000
To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
From: Stephen Farrell 
Message-ID: <819daaf5-3dc7-ea9e-b5a7-eabbdd9af336@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 02:30:22 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WKyHLUnLxTdgKpqSBSY9FiEDIct55bLDG"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DU2PR04CA0243.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:28e::8) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DU2PR04CA0243.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:28e::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 02:30:25 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: c9babb4d-2033-4e9c-d893-08d99cdf8ff1
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR02MB3223:
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:6430;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;  IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE;  SFS:(4636009)(366004)(66946007)(44832011)(235185007)(66476007)(86362001)(54906003)(21480400003)(16576012)(5660300002)(2616005)(8676002)(38100700002)(83380400001)(966005)(110136005)(2906002)(31696002)(53546011)(316002)(6666004)(508600001)(4326008)(66556008)(956004)(33964004)(8936002)(26005)(786003)(31686004)(6486002)(186003)(36756003)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; 
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?YmhjK29HYVFtTHJPTWZsdnFuSUpwZWpvYStZMFF1S0g4YVpvNCs3Wjk1dlRx?= =?utf-8?B?L2lmUSs3QXgrWG9GL3VGNUVKUGNJRnYrUjg3Ky9qU3BaYWZHR1NVdVN4ME4x?= =?utf-8?B?V09kVGI4ZG83ZDEySWFBd1pRTjZzSG16MFRvQmpyQ2ZGRVg2SFdOQUUwdElv?= =?utf-8?B?cjg0OXp4Sm11VXpoUnljVUMxNzhpVDZsMU5KRWRtcm1pdWJTMkpHWkJKaHBE?= =?utf-8?B?aW1XSGg5Rll1bzJkTmhWaFVwRFJEckJTcnNPdVRvM29ENUVKVzh6aDJqY2sz?= =?utf-8?B?eXZNd0pZYlFzYy91TG1JNTNhWlNKM0pEUUMwT2RIZ3dxMzFKemc5bHpIY2JQ?= =?utf-8?B?aG10bTF1OXA4WmhxSk1CWk00K2lydGpYRFQzR2VmNjF4cDA3OElZSkUwaE9y?= =?utf-8?B?Q0pDVEVHQnVGeUZmKzM2NDBXdlppSGFpSXNVOTVYcXgvTVhReStVNHhWYS9t?= =?utf-8?B?b0N2Uzh4ZmthMHNTM09lMWxRU0VEU1hoeUVNOUljNVZGZ096REVPbk00d2hy?= =?utf-8?B?b25GQkZGWm8rdlVSWUoxWDBYbTVPQkFuSHBzOGFqaVFrdzY1RDg2OVo3aWZ5?= =?utf-8?B?U0plVG8zWDFTd1ZIeTd2b0RhVzBYdUhCUE5PRk5GOFE3QTlPTkJTaTJjK3pX?= =?utf-8?B?cXFKeUo5V0VDeTJzU3BORHRGTUxxVWQ0Y0ZCUkxwNXNvcnJtMXZLMldldUhX?= =?utf-8?B?Z2NnRkwvaGdiS3B3blJNYjV5blZ0TkJRc1NSVTcxOTkwZkVJbkFZNGRKKzJ2?= =?utf-8?B?cHpxNjlLUWxzVzE5a2g2d0VRdzFzLzRjOEZYUlNhSHJna3duOU8yZVQvQk5H?= =?utf-8?B?dXg1MU5waWVqeUxRK0ZLbDY0SGZyaGVDZkdBYXM3U1BhalpYSnpFbS9PWVkx?= =?utf-8?B?Q0NDR3FEVkJZSVR2ZGZ3cVpsR3VMb2tyRkwzemF4S2xGenduMVpMQ3NXeENi?= =?utf-8?B?YS9aZGIyYUJpZ3UwOTNqM2lvVzNPZGc4cUdvdGZIY3dSdUY5TUt1Z0VrdWc4?= =?utf-8?B?V2Jxdk9xMGdub0NUZXdPQjNGdVIxVXFPOTFtWEdScnJpdEQ0VU9ZbDVodXdB?= =?utf-8?B?MUVHYmxIRk1EQlQxSjZOK3pwbWpYTW1BZ3dDN2g0cy9vQmNnVXBVdTlYWTFZ?= =?utf-8?B?NmI3V2VMdGowK0J2UXhsaHBzenFqamFMaE56VlVITzhzQkYvOGd6YzZKR0VW?= =?utf-8?B?bGVXc1VCb2p0U3VTTEI3VVkwV0FMbGlsWXNLTjBnWEdlOVJiMWtCd016R0cw?= =?utf-8?B?R0NNTWhTL0dTTnF6amhCM0Zia1ZyN244dmFtR0xGSVdjYnFkMnRXMERrN085?= =?utf-8?B?YmhRd0I5Z1pnWTM4ZXNYVHFkVzVEVFRCTHRidkxDUEVoWTQ1aW9HbnIweDJ3?= =?utf-8?B?VXBuaWMrQkwwTHh0MDVkUVFaNnZXcERPYml2eHJxSGQ0aGQwcGZJZVo4RTI2?= =?utf-8?B?NEo1a0hQZUNBdVQzQXNyV1gvVEFzK3RzYlBJbkxsM1A5WEhXNks4dWJpbmRR?= =?utf-8?B?QlFMclhVNEIzVXAyVktiOGJLai9JQmdoMmZtS1ZWWmZmRXZjQzJnVjk3c1B4?= =?utf-8?B?UmFJZlpiOTBaVkZiM3BiRG5aS1FBN2RrNExzRWpNWnhLUFp5dXl6NGVpQ2xG?= =?utf-8?B?TWRPd1dsYjh3TVZTbXFUQmhWaHhyTDZaUmlwMzlXOHYxZjBScTVnVFhrNDdJ?= =?utf-8?B?OEZ5TFhlcVFPcVJHSjV5YjRtSTlDK1JaSU41K1VZekhhVldBaHVFSk03MDJp?= =?utf-8?B?czZ4K1pWWGt1WGZKKzllWnAyN3RRc2FEMFVraENsSytBUlllN1ptRm5USDRz?= =?utf-8?B?T1pnMFJqSHNuM1l2dGkzbkVKSnFGQjl4QmlHUms4UDNGOVNkWnI4bVpZRkpH?= =?utf-8?B?Q3RYSVhkN01zMnVPUmt5aHdqNVUvcEZ4eEs2NlNJOWJGVTB6V1dkWXdZd0FY?= =?utf-8?B?Mm4zUVRwVGduR2RSeVJrb25LeDdSOWVOWTJTbmZKWVQ5QlhaVm5KZXQvMmVr?= =?utf-8?B?dUVlb2hjVlo2VTlHRnJTMllic0RRUkVUMkU0NGRUOThYaHQ3TmdDVC9VbzBS?= =?utf-8?B?VDlzWGZsNktTR0pWZHduWmpKaFVpaW5UZ2xPZHdDa2FtbjlBb1UvUTRGRHh1?= =?utf-8?Q?NU7M=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c9babb4d-2033-4e9c-d893-08d99cdf8ff1
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2021 02:30:26.4942 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: e9rKksT/JvIhI20Jp5dXD/IMwuFluYtG24brDpR300xwZcYP61JsS7K8G9BVKQge
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR02MB3223
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 02:30:37 -0000

--WKyHLUnLxTdgKpqSBSY9FiEDIct55bLDG
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FcNnJfZ7AcuxmptvLKY6UgaHDBwETb7Mq";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine ,
 Jay Daley 
Message-ID: <819daaf5-3dc7-ea9e-b5a7-eabbdd9af336@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy>
 <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com>
 <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com>
 <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org>
 <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net>
 <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch>
 <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>

--FcNnJfZ7AcuxmptvLKY6UgaHDBwETb7Mq
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------A4341986F17FB44FA9D2EBAF"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------A4341986F17FB44FA9D2EBAF
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hiya,

On 01/11/2021 00:54, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in
> the RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site.
> Maybe it's a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's
> something much more substantial.
>=20
> I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a
> good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there
> is no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site,
> etc., and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational
> burden is non-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.
>=20
> In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution
> should be as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate
> review, consensus, and oversight.
>=20
> The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC
> be published. If it does, I think we've failed.
>=20
> If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is
> how that kind of thing is authorised.
>=20
> One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position
> to enact this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit
> of what we're doing here.

I agree most of the above seems like a good idea. But I'd not
like a "petition" to be the common modus operandi, rather a
demonstration (e.g. via a replicated web site) would seem to
be a much better option. That that is doable seems to have
been demonstrated by the datatracker code-sprints etc.

For example, if someone's changed RSS (or whatever) impacted
on rendering for visually impaired people, or had some impact
on privacy, then that might be very unclear from a petition
but more easily understood via a replicable demonstration.

So I think I agree with John Levine that a person (such as
the RCSE) ought have a significant role in promoting such
ideas to the point where the RSWG/RSAB asks the community
whether a decision is warranted.

But I'd also hope that the RPC would figure out whether or
not its possible to enable community participants to build
such proposed better web sites for others to evaluate. I
can't see why that'd be hard, given the small and pretty
static content involved.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince
> them to do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or
> visibility.
>=20
> Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG,
> with buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.
>=20
> Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal
> (and if so, why)?
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>=20
>> We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>=20
>> And then we say:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the=20
>>> following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):
>>>=20
>>> *  Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs
>>>=20
>>> *  Publication formats for the RFC Series
>>>=20
>>> *  Changes to the RFC style guide
>>>=20
>>> *  Series-wide guidelines regarding document content and quality
>>>=20
>>> *  Web presence for the RFC Series
>>>=20
>>> *  Copyright matters related to the RFC Series
>>>=20
>>> *  Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs
>>=20
>> So here we have an example of indexing.  The only issue is when a
>> commitment is needed.  In that case, either the RPC has the
>> authority, the ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek
>> the authority.  And then the question turns to whom.
>>=20
>> Am I missing something?
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>> On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.
>>>=20
>>> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a
>>> lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether
>>> it be by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of
>>> them). It would still retain change control over the output, of
>>> course, but it would enable things like this to make progress.
>>>=20
>>> Does that makes sense?
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine =20
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that
>>>>>>> Google Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what
>>>>>>> the problem is, various coding and indexing issues on the
>>>>>>> rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get them fixed
>>>>>>> before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then
>>>>>>> it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google
>>>>>>> and if need be, to make the changes to fix it? ...
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific
>>>>>> Policies", (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3
>>>>>> "RPC Responsibilities", isn't exclusive. So my answer is
>>>>>> that if the problem flagged by the community is "get RFCs
>>>>>> into Google Scholar", solving it is then the RPC's job (and
>>>>>> how they tackle will probably involve consulting the RSCE).
>>>>>> Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many
>>>>> years.  The RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been
>>>>> able to fix it because, unsurprisingly, their deep expertise
>>>>> in editorial issues doesn't happen to extend to the details
>>>>> of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it because I used
>>>>> to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then
>>>>> tell the RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs
>>>>> outside help, then consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small
>>>>> problems on their own and assign those problems directly to
>>>>> people who can address them.  Running everything through two
>>>>> committees is truly a recipe for paralysis.
>>>>>=20
>>>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the
>>>> new model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation
>>>> to the RPC (with support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6=
 and =E2=80=A6)  As
>>>> the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it
>>>> is solely an implementation issue.
>>>>=20
>>>> We need to remember that only a subset of the
>>>> role/responsibilities of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG
>>>> and implementation matters are not part of that.
>>>>=20
>>>> Jay
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com , Taughannock Networks,
>>>>> Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading
>>>>> this e-mail. https://jl.ly
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -- Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org=20
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>> -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director
>>>>=20
>>>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -- Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org=20
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>> -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> 
>=20
> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20

--------------A4341986F17FB44FA9D2EBAF
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5=
Cg8
gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq=
978
CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu=
D/Q
9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4=
tNn
cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB=
wV+
4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir=
1GC
YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav=
ACY
Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D=
VQu
8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER=
8la
5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE=
wEI
ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC=
xAA
pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX=
Az9
+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL=
F+X
+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4=
g1U
QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre=
k3U
P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2=
niv
Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL=
4Nw
tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m=
6vt
ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7=
+8A
CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ=
LvC
wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8=
rpK
o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr=
qJs
CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa=
W/r
KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG=
gMW
rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u=
rqR
1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/=
0A9
J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc=
JBD
EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4=
vrp
2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA=
xvK
dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK=
xlf
tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg=
Uky
o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO=
aHv
X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp=
yyz
JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ=
uLE
FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w=
sDc
BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer=
3UM
TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP=
jt5
uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK=
171
RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR=
Lpg
RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov=
wza
tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0=
zG3
6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ=
eah
r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ=
GNz
LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o=
3cC
GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo=
w5o
DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h=
Rcs
RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC=
Y98
iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd=
h2k
4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4=
EIk
CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ=
DIJ
pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4=
tvy
a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4=
ul3
qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc=
G9g
ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt=
w/r
1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ=
Jaf
3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1=
4Q0
7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf=
qtu
Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C=
gHw
26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC=
wIE
FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL=
rfb
e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF=
etu
O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8=
v39
+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr=
1oD
3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr=
m2D
Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby=
y/A
UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO=
jao
P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz=
leL
Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC=
2X4
pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g=
1MS
BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34=
YT0
auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb=
edD
Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3=
1qG
/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV=
YW6
R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg=
4Im
VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm=
qyH
eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx=
qnk
SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ=
Esc
YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n=
2Hw
xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F=
eIY
jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E=
AuF
CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4=
2AY
R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH=
X5v
aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q=
Csw
Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq=
yA4
3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m=
Eer
0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI=
Dxz
dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC=
QgH
AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ=
i0B
igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn=
i9g
OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy=
sIg
pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n=
66v
xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/=
3r2
BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM=
YtU
N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr=
5iW
XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/=
zek
ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b=
a0H
Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP=
Ic2
gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6=
XE6
i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1=
16u
/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J=
G9a
SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW=
OMq
N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz=
0YO
K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4=
vYl
zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx=
nNb
KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+=
5HN
HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq=
4hn
l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn=
Zbg
JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d=
nJj
j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8=
WLI
aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc=
dPC
Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX=
o4+
Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO=
Tyk
rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9=
hZM
0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5=
P3f
WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp=
cL2
lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk=
etP
GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3=
zRq
k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0=
20q
pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U=
DIB
EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x=
/nL
PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE=
hOV
fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D=
VI9
DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT=
uW/
eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD=
aWT
3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6=
1df
mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8=
MAv
2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA=
HZR
5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo=
qj1
gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6=
Mas
qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi=
RkM
dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB=
++/
KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX=
xMD
rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf=
ZtA
ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN=
2OE
0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT=
zcS
oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7=
IKP
3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW=
Iys
s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST
=3D40Nd
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------A4341986F17FB44FA9D2EBAF--

--FcNnJfZ7AcuxmptvLKY6UgaHDBwETb7Mq--

--WKyHLUnLxTdgKpqSBSY9FiEDIct55bLDG
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmF/UT4FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+oB
ew/9Eoz49kq5i4RUu1VTEtGnXlv2Rwy5QXLzloh59ElTBwZelwQpsS8WYM1BMKPHuICY/HKb9KJV
gD8dDd7IHS1ToxeKhcNpCw1i4gxdwenAEb9yQ3c3ygNx4W+T8IBbr8bG2wKzV2Dlo+koZf49djLt
sR/eI2Gqg0ksb6kNA7Vplhz2r0uK6Vi6u7BQusRXJsYcXt8rKo+otQFQC6NaO/79RYw9ASUHNMqz
u/as2r41XS+vqLqWtdpN6UJcNvN6i3hUbwQFR0eVtyNqtIV0QyAeSixtsU3rlibQMdF2J/Law19Z
5aS87qVOaWPqq3yyQzlqAhtyrRuAbALf2Mwq7/HDlko077/mN4G+KisYcm0tajicAIfjMNwc2/MO
Kmkhl29515laowPz4ISX/mv83tDv2kuEVcSPGSrDpsZM6e5nJdqatVUyRXdsy4FYvS2e/sSE06vS
kwv3AVuoArDT9uTYjjGVyAeTrZrGtKrm+LajE1BvTpWMX5zHo746I9cj46PpUvNclCwZl70jXyKR
JVxB+GUNN3FYpMSVGMXvGhPwkp8fHMauufzecH202h7KY2pZdwBddorMyJ83URjugSqV6HeSNObk
SXox6r3vdHif2hX6ntVIHE4CRq8pwPpUgBRflU/YhoobnZ6N1rzkBfWjiSW7rRORklrVUGB4h4m0
n+s=
=0+lM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--WKyHLUnLxTdgKpqSBSY9FiEDIct55bLDG--


From nobody Sun Oct 31 20:49:09 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EEC3A0DD7 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:49:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.428
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K71hW8w7WdDZ for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E11053A0DDE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id q2-20020a17090a2e0200b001a0fd4efd49so10448516pjd.1 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;  h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+cY+1W0QU5TVm20rCGjI+b258gpq/Rr7pv7bYOirWPQ=; b=BWdqqLozmLB1aQ2xo+sEKab2f2K7dbMddVh2ToAB8p0aXhqSfWs44gDeW11KOLVNsd sHTjIVg/vqyCNRDXl8ReEsOzbYTjwmeU4i2WYEcFXSfH7tqRPfPuI8RZDic+jkydJaHo SpSe3SRmR3hPowGr5HF8Tnv8B9aWO+s6NizHb2qpNNFbbqkOIgc+JNlFvwcizJjjVX8T uVMGv/J7d/PQn8na6QRp7EtDo88NdFpNQ6tQ0vVBDIbthTjHo73f9tDcRZpMQ8DpcDrW 0lW3JMXH3QbokhTgkgI6m5O2HPP7j3vQNTXwWoELYR49iYkWwcLHzE+xxubLP2KLgt2u BUsQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+cY+1W0QU5TVm20rCGjI+b258gpq/Rr7pv7bYOirWPQ=; b=qOZ8rCVYkFRj9Fb1VNUmB/pcx94L1ChDNI3PGRz57WHJIaVfysuH+945zOhK1jTmxY sLV1XMopIGB1DrMvXCgAk//qeeyKZM4mony/g82kXipfgy6Gc0weSyh0Vs+OZwIE5hnM H9I85ony3F6njODMNJlgxAZqDsNmd9lcELbFfRi8E9tx76Ha8uqwU797mvLgbIrTIxnC GRs62L1svDksTsRme8j4zVgOTiYEGxb8JaqItlXiONSC0pl9BMp3ofaUb4UKdH42szb4 2hhvFbe6TeneSpPWGh8mXv62SHa8ROgu+5h2OHFnYXq4yHe9jteAWHAC8Ei6OWrLj06y ejWg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Ba8YxXtCjiQBfoiFyaxstoT8BrDwO9dzM7/Czu6qxo65JEjtR v9QJUY+cuwxBZQGvZm7siI8=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxFTThr6n6LG/r1ymSwk4naP811x/NFseA1ziA5tAtjMuDN+/1lWYbt6HZkOJQX+c/PT5553Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b696:b0:141:afeb:a40c with SMTP id c22-20020a170902b69600b00141afeba40cmr16153900pls.38.1635738541121;  Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j1sm11380688pgb.5.2021.10.31.20.48.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 Oct 2021 20:49:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley 
References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <697183b1-5634-c511-fe99-c1b3464f27a7@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:48:54 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 03:49:08 -0000

Mark,

My reaction is that this issue is off topic. Let me explain that in line =
below...

On 01-Nov-21 13:54, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in the=20
RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. Maybe it'=
s a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's something much =
more substantial.
>=20
> I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a g=
ood idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there is n=
o financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc., a=
nd the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is non-=
existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable.
>=20
> In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should =
be as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, consensu=
s, and oversight.


That isn't a policy or strategy issue, which is what I understand the RSW=
G/RSAB mechanism is for. It is  barely even a policy implementation issue=
=2E So I would expect the RSWG chairs to simply rule it out of scope for =
formal RSWG action. Then the question is, where is it in scope?

I think the answer is not here at all, it's in BCP101 (RFC8711), where it=20
says that the LLC provides "financial support for the operation of the RF=
C Editor". The LLC owns the contract because of that phrase, not because =
of what we do here. BCP101 also talks about community involvement in tool=
s at https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5. That *doe=
s* define a policy, and I think it makes it fairly clear that the answer =
is for the community to "document its consensus expectations in areas whe=
re no documentation currently exists" and send the result to the LLC. Tha=
t doesn't require an RFC but it does require a venue where consensus can =
be reached. I have re-read the RSWG role description and I don't see anyw=
here that it mentions tools such as the web site, or for that matter XML2=
RFCv3 or SVG issues.

We could argue that "close ftp service" or "allow Javascript on the RFC E=
ditor web site" or "expand the allowed SVG subset" are policy issues, jus=
t about, but if you want a forum for technical discussion of any kind of =
RFC Editor tooling, it is clearly not the RSWG as currently proposed.
 =20
> The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC be=20
published. If it does, I think we've failed.
>=20
> If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how =
that kind of thing is authorised.> One answer would be for me to petition=20
the RSCE to use their position to enact this. I think that's inappropriat=
e, and against the spirit of what we're doing here.
>=20
> Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them =
to do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility.
>=20
> Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, wi=
th buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable.


Since we are not talking about policy or strategy, I'm not sure why the R=
SWG or RSAB would be involved.

>=20
> Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal (and=20
if so, why)?


The authority for tools is the LLC, since RFC8711. If there's a need for =
some mechanism to support the paragraph in RFC8711 that I cited above, th=
at's well worth a discussion, but not here IMHO.

Regards
    Brian

>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>>
>> We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>     *  If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC
>>
>> And then we say:
>>
>>>
>>>     Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the
>>>     following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]):
>>>
>>>     *  Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs
>>>
>>>     *  Publication formats for the RFC Series
>>>
>>>     *  Changes to the RFC style guide
>>>
>>>     *  Series-wide guidelines regarding document content and quality
>>>
>>>     *  Web presence for the RFC Series
>>>
>>>     *  Copyright matters related to the RFC Series
>>>
>>>     *  Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs
>>
>> So here we have an example of indexing.  The only issue is when a comm=
itment is needed.  In that case, either the RPC has the authority, the ED=20
has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek the authority.  And then t=
he question turns to whom.
>>
>> Am I missing something?
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>> On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too.
>>>
>>> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lightw=
eight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the R=
PC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still re=
tain change control over the output, of course, but it would enable thing=
s like this to make progress.
>>>
>>> Does that makes sense?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>> * I.e., without publishing an RFC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley 
>>>>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine 
>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google S=
cholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various c=
oding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can ge=
t them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it =
breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, to =
make the changes to fix it? ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies",
>>>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibili=
ties",
>>>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by th=
e
>>>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then th=
e
>>>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting th=
e
>>>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear.
>>>>>>
>>>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years.  The=20
RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, =
unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen t=
o extend to the details of web indexing.  (I happen to know about it beca=
use I used to do expert witness work for Google.)
>>>>>
>>>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the =
RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consu=
lt the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems o=
n their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address =
them.  Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for pa=
ralysis.
>>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new mo=
del focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with=20
support from =E2=80=A6 and oversight from =E2=80=A6 and =E2=80=A6)  As th=
e Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is solely a=
n implementation issue.
>>>>
>>>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities =
of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are no=
t part of that.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> John Levine,
>>>>> johnl@taugh.com
>>>>> , Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
>>>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
>>>>> https://jl.ly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> Jay Daley
>>>> IETF Executive Director
>>>>
>>>> exec-director@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> Rfced-future mailing list
>>>>
>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org
>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>> --
>>> Mark Nottingham
>>> https://www.mnot.net/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20


From nobody Sun Oct 31 23:21:22 2021
Return-Path: 
X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02D93A1076 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 23:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.22
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sm0MlyJ9o5fS for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 23:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB4F73A0FAF for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2021 23:21:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A16L5ga339274 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:21:07 +0100
Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635747668; bh=Dhm29+qAg9Oo6zSwqasoq2Lxsfq8iujB9CkznANGCq8=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=f4B5alqk16ptzJgDnUdw7rNjHGITaZ/3oF0NvhNy/Fe6HinprBKf7IMTsrKrSueS7 tjbYtP+EDB+lsz65EeYEc6C7K8+QgUTGdrQAuqYTUcfYXdJh2aCrLFkO08QwAnJzuv UWWukKNC9ZOL2Gm03pDv9esP4X9UE6ZeudBpHyUI=
Message-ID: <03b32580-06ad-b536-0876-89a04b979e5d@lear.ch>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:21:03 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Stephen Farrell , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
References: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch> <27f1b2a2-7f73-f4f8-0746-3b3feced4d3e@cs.tcd.ie> <77c5c1c0-9f85-7549-e655-d1b464481535@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
From: Eliot Lear 
In-Reply-To: <77c5c1c0-9f85-7549-e655-d1b464481535@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------5qt7ylZ6vMEJ2hpc7AasPstC"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)
X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 06:21:21 -0000

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--------------5qt7ylZ6vMEJ2hpc7AasPstC
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------YHAVIejzY25kNpO91ZSH3B1v";
 protected-headers="v1"
From: Eliot Lear 
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= ,
 Stephen Farrell ,
 "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <03b32580-06ad-b536-0876-89a04b979e5d@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] PLEASE REVIEW: issues from LC (thus far)
References: <686bfd0d-eea9-c340-7cd8-722233328195@lear.ch>
 <27f1b2a2-7f73-f4f8-0746-3b3feced4d3e@cs.tcd.ie>
 <77c5c1c0-9f85-7549-e655-d1b464481535@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: <77c5c1c0-9f85-7549-e655-d1b464481535@it.aoyama.ac.jp>

--------------YHAVIejzY25kNpO91ZSH3B1v
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------jr4EwKahCJ08hVL3Wehzj1KQ"

--------------jr4EwKahCJ08hVL3Wehzj1KQ
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--------------jr4EwKahCJ08hVL3Wehzj1KQ
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP public key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clTl=
pVL
ciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ9NcML=
lD8
raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5CaSa1Gw/Rv5=
4oH
0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqeILPILbw1mM7gC=
tCj
fvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEBAAHNJUVsaW90IExlY=
XIg
PGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMCHgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QR=
h2w
kqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXv=
tFj
AYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/I=
NAq
DOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md+52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyM=
Jz+
GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0=
MyS
k1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcMEUkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM=
+E5
C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/ChaEaBwkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD60ACgkQrMabGguI183qWgCcD=
Bjq
DmK7cBrd5B8Lx1Hce3DoITAAoITHspuUZhEMClsQ2ruFruxqYVx7wkYEEhECAAYFAlMfD7kAC=
gkQ
bSQVTUC9PaNvRQCePg8STHTpWqepHj7Qo5A42U0AtEAAnjmosjanQaJsp8bSsCzcBbD6vrp3w=
sBi
BBMBCgAMBQJTIsh+BYMHhh+AAAoJEMQNkRdNmQgQBJMH/3IYT+as04P6G4XLtbCamz0Ca6Mqf=
XAa
hQt8ES3b9hXNKDBBhCIMAAVXdq3xx3SUWSrIhTUfI6GqEfDoKbv3m86glT9OxjZzdZTdMuzaS=
5TT
emG+e9cEEjJrjmAMZRXocbv3OX7P7PeILWW3qg9TlK5Jy5FxGYGh3KFsP+VGTGTc9XvabUOhC=
Bb5
z1oocHuh4uVJbNMaKVkQTE1FrjBSgX2ofCza6sn8ht91aRSsoqvSsIH63pw7GN5jhtURktWpm=
/vX
qNKoHKZ+9HaTrnQrxcbp3KT3zkhDDNI5AgaBIucjhC2j47FY7nvtEzs3rvB0EaLgEt2iPIPn4=
TTr
Om5YWFbCRgQTEQIABgUCVxX/yAAKCRBugA9nE248uI7tAKCuv/d7rt4PpsN9CXNIu65JqvJMW=
QCg
iVjlI3bzSuDrqtOOWMhLlLr4IFXNG0VsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tPsLAjgQTA=
QIA
OAIbAwIeAQIXgBYhBJjQvZBGHbCSp7JhHYe2a0bZ0nozBQJbEnAzBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWA=
gMB
AAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz99sH/05ohkPD2proSE1OEMK7I8cJTOdf0Qo+zpVTt/GJX1CabzWSsAPO8=
VAy
39fjk6n9/+C48Kg3SUaZwaOURUGSBhojQxDuSw9mOff1MuU6AQBqepeAgieyaN5CMk5fyQj6T=
mHe
UhOWi8F6dk5cz2HbU4tPxQaMu8fi/1njRlqKusz85pZAsmCvOMHsDn2zz/zTwcoy5dGnikYSy=
UFh
Z6Ic018VoddI0RZYNDBmfvOPTmpVM/1GVT+IgcIe50v5A3ucBmnbkyiK0lcgNrP4pEcaESX42=
4Yi
9jgbZYdEEo58kj09uVtr1l7lpC87/p+6B9ljB1xWNC2cSSqk7KzHZ7CT0vrCRgQSEQIABgUCU=
x8P
rgAKCRCsxpsaC4jXzV41AJ97++0NnIjeQmmJHORfqUuHVBiCoACfZQlNGmN1zmVoE9701OnCD=
bAf
UOrCRgQSEQIABgUCUx8PugAKCRBtJBVNQL09o5sxAKDbY0bJFO1KoP297EClcJRuMb2XIQCdG=
q6D
9WBDN+ZyLtApHOS9DyKbV0nCRgQTEQIABgUCUx7XlgAKCRB3+hotMPnpedfUAJ9VQai0umpSl=
BST
A9OAMkal7Qt4YgCdEzmwSiZOIahuTF6u/K/n2gnZqv7CwGIEEwEKAAwFAlMiyKMFgweGH4AAC=
gkQ
xA2RF02ZCBD74ggAi/BaletObe+e/bo95Eovpfv1mWgwh1ZvWnM4nrdhwPY9QLyyflyMQFzlh=
Oqp
4aMqeL8FSbt1QRcttOU4rXwnWniRWoDAK4dF+bLYZtL4dN+kVG6aqCbdRYfw/FapcnAPZwKna=
bXo
zei5a5BCbPbSfvrmhfvWnXWesgp3JLMVfArFYLPrAjrb0c5Ic1BQ/R3AMQJYmEvCFdUw8Pntm=
65U
+cHESWA7XD1lcfxNuFJ/7+4ITM3xXJNyHkRRxOoIrkxhmbK1rK9AU3wx34sEUGj+zMzcOOJ0S=
c5i
mFHHmb/U6j/QEvkrjCwAWYAeavOjU+7dH4pvCHL9rv64DTnC8C2268JGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MA=
AoJ
EG6AD2cTbjy4Y0oAoJvlyBpcNcpV0dTh9NdoU0oFrq+cAKC/0cvn08pwmL5oL3aSdSMJ6jAUd=
sLB
cwQQAQgAHRYhBNJ0tiDZIMzm6Zz6qraoYY/DYONRBQJZd6pPAAoJELaoYY/DYONRgMEP/iaM1=
GyO
gKTg5Fgc6BhWOiqkv4rIOCIzEgeepRicUhW0m55yVf/enGFodwKleLxwjgV4MGLTRCfkKoBh5=
vsF
jCe+W7hB82Wns/yGrhCzVl/JzqThAzFezlCS/KoG0LtkkJ/rjvAnMYNNs/q6H4deNNg+yNs4X=
eWX
PxfGEZQxPdX58eGfY2P9OJPbxNqwX1pFkF1oDtdhf7qO8Kf2+zWAE7Tvk/gXSbTCXgcUxbtvY=
vnt
SiAC7T5Ucfe363Zp4/F1BEo/GK7OAn1QPTiTcXZUM71ORaWZbO0dgc5rEmXSOTgA7Qx+asXJH=
kcN
j3nKfqORMUQBdxHmlolpn0rxbUR7pREJhhcwrtYJLtrdoy41QUqd1ei6dJl28YgnWNLm7XOtm=
ZCs
rf06r4iB8XTe0va6b8J/PDWY8KjiqLl4VM36YPTSSoYM4+83adaYzyFaJZWamTY+Wx8lOcx8X=
WQQ
0OWQHJtss+rMZ7sq7k2Z/PcLYLU/n0R54xUj6Bd7dg5Yxt5ya0h9aTtz9cMnfCLHfVL2ZimkS=
jsP
o0lWqHIhCz/7FUT1quGXLZMrTiWGN8ep9rhdPCYuCInnC/HbeBFrghVUd0oHMrTiud925J2gU=
GUH
AUhrFFdvM8gf9U/SbdS+BYzL+IEVdv2w1hP1zBYJMP4fftVbQj11u0FrWd2JKRciLMCKzRlFb=
Glv
dCBMZWFyIDxsZWFyQGxlYXIuY2g+wsCOBBMBAgA4AhsDAh4BAheAFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh=
7Zr
RtnSejMFAlsScDMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPCiAf+OqRayV/uDnJJd=
nx0
d9N2orPS8sfI7+plyijq/FkdFGHCdLMkK4WmmTRtVVffLWEBxyvRecu4R+GArK696HWes6Gr5=
8eV
9V/9scPMu99n/4q1aDjpGC4nfSBj8Wtntp2FwmaXXuf8r798Hl1ROJhuHRAA+U/IikuB8/93y=
hiU
NeaO/Sb/dh4Au0aQrdFmokNG+mnD9z7sIwycycyxWc2+4yIgd4s8UBEklhNRjUZqACv5NIFup=
Jsd
f/O7UBDayvtzZ+AiUhUFhenp7S52O1HlZvecGzEJCXr8HXQ1lDtobg25mZ5sYClxs0kqbjau5=
/CA
gDpW7dB33SQGUH8tuW8L3sJGBBMRAgAGBQJXFf/MAAoJEG6AD2cTbjy4JScAn0VSzCt2Ekady=
JJJ
F3I/oCasjO0eAJ9Zz3CRgJnJCfGy5npEaboA6xL6p87ATQRTHtVEAQgAtFle2HW7/ecWBj4bY=
U3Q
oQSKT7ZeyTwlf3Ov94hJr46XxrhTWiuDGnI/ZXttBAOQNQR+z4CxqBzojzOuTcrEaWfekUVV9=
0zX
y5oRjBa+YTzhjXavsXBh1brZsD1fVO2ynlDUYjxcd2HRJBMXXaldhPBZbU9MdhUintsbMzzxw=
eoF
bTHJF+W7iPadSt321YV3bxJHGGP4wdCRCRsoUuWhG3LeXB1LwwJE/Nf2BSuSX4PEUcLtatbdW=
LiC
UjlgGUPSfaFLIOg/UaQpVPrSBQaHt4k6dQFHyXMqbnBioC2Crabv2soHKUDjR2JGFudNN5j7K=
2ox
YUXlReb3snDGx7OLuQARAQABwsBfBBgBAgAJBQJTHtVEAhsMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozkrkIANu6d=
q2A
eyodtHcpulfHOtqVqQRx04Ma/99s3r8R0ol5esb1AoOU/FlMH1JPDr4A3ARKyv25QwDF0M0oN=
7Ke
OdCYUfEZ1x1xeWc9k9OF+x55SFSRsH9go58MhACQqjM2gpiPoNyJr4P/C+J8gRb4ZRRw7/pCL=
zIr
o8snIzwLu8cSqZQbNfyBMJg6ADI53hZmsL33kJ8HTIUiivD4ykrsxlOblJsY9xgX0ar0zNKqZ=
oTD
xTpg4SUph+eRywJMtjJZqiWFyT7f/RH0hIRYrmtTOoC4rjRLj5KfvI3Jx0Kiq9CHh7fFKnMC7=
dph
nyMpdBVXRfYb1j4zUcxm4KqE9Q4tN0U=3D
=3DjPt/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
--------------jr4EwKahCJ08hVL3Wehzj1KQ--


--------------YHAVIejzY25kNpO91ZSH3B1v--

--------------5qt7ylZ6vMEJ2hpc7AasPstC
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmF/h08FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejND
5wf8CiKJbgP/pUHpuVHzGCnb+LTLY06L5gZZ66+JfoaJJ+EMLffI6rzVw0WfzbwOYeBLcThG28av
mxFHN2kvCV2aSFE37ske9JriRpukSyecLxwWx8mKrztW+3CXpjwau18jZhp5sKjRmU2qLQhWkDKt
exk27QsSypdIoKmwKBlZlRpV1IMXjAYgiVVHM2aYlj+CE+nxBpsAdWqbPz5Iol5TCw4sa+ZejhNL
ocALhR8XgeoFQFEr97SaS0jK48TLmtUOJBEDUARNteF3yxc8fD1qBb7sHSl2Tc6Ii0t3AJLQS1uD
3Xyyk7BzLdd5GoANP2pMe5ShD9vdPOm/tqWwJ/MWdQ==
=KcNb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--------------5qt7ylZ6vMEJ2hpc7AasPstC--