From nobody Mon Jan 3 05:44:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478CC3A07A2; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 05:44:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X-I3A8zRHpZi; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 05:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E081C3A07A0; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 05:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee733e700114c3388f1dd340c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e733:e700:114c:3388:f1dd:340c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1n4Nd2-00013Q-Hv; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 14:44:00 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BD9A5F71-5AE0-46CF-8265-3E8804368538" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 14:43:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear , Michael StJohns To: Jay Daley , John C Klensin References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1641217446;60c8c9ca; X-HE-SMSGID: 1n4Nd2-00013Q-Hv Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 13:44:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BD9A5F71-5AE0-46CF-8265-3E8804368538 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Not sure I can add much to this discussion which has not been said = before but as I hope this might help, here is my view.=20 This is the text in draft: "The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from = the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to = the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=E2=80=9D I think the important point of this text is that not the selection = committee makes the final decision but the LLC Board which is a group of = community selected volunteers. Yes, usually the LLC will likely follow = the recommendation from the selection committee but they also have to = provide proposer justifications to the LLC. The role of the search = committee really is to support the LLC Board with additional expertise = and it=E2=80=99s the LLC Board that knows best which additional = expertise is needed. As such I think I=E2=80=99m okay with what is = written in the draft currently. However, I would also like to note that th text says the LCC Board forms = the selection committee and not the ED. While these are internals on how = the LLC Board manages itself, I would assume that=E2=80=99s rather a job = for the LLC Board chair with approval of the whole (community-selected) = board than the ED. This issue was discussed and confirmed (changing = responsibility from the ED to the whole LLC board in GitHub issue #40). If the ED would be the sole one to select the committee I would be more = concerned because I think it=E2=80=99s easy (and often happens = naturally) to select people with a certain bias if selected by only one = person. But that=E2=80=99s not the process as specified to my = understanding. I guess we could add a few more words about who/which group of people = should be considered to be on the committee but not sure that is really = needed or very helpful. I raised issue #111 asking about the textual = difference of the RSCE selection committee vs. the RPC selection = committee. For we RPC selection committee we explicitly say that the ED = is part of this committee and the stream approving bodies are consulted. = It was confirmed to me that this difference was on purpose.=20 I also hope that the LLC Board would anyway consult with the RSAB in = such matters. So I=E2=80=99m have no concern with the additional text = proposed by Eliot. However, I hope that the LLC Board would also consult = about other (finical) topics that are relevant or the RFC series and the = RPC with the RSAB. Not sure if we really need to say more about this = explicitly. Mirja > On 29. Dec 2021, at 20:50, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > John >=20 > I agree, the current model does make the ED the sole arbiter of who = meets the criteria to be on the appointment committee and I can see why = you might have concerns that this could be misused. I have no objection = to any checking mechanism for this, such as your proposed check with the = RSAB but please note, that would likely delay the appointment of the = RSCE by ~3 months because this process cannot then start until the RSAB = is seated. I also btw, have no objection to the committee being chosen = entirely separately from me. The one thing I would ask if we go that = path is that we document, as briefly as possible, the knowledge those = people are expected to have. >=20 > My plan, as previously noted, was to come to this list with a proposed = committee and get feedback that way, as I am obliged to do by section = 4.4 or RFC8711 (which is phrased much stronger than an aspiration, but = that=E2=80=99s a conversation for another time). Of course, as you have = explained, if this is not specified in the process then there is a = possibility that another ED might not do that. >=20 > Even if we don=E2=80=99t put any of those safeguards in place, I will = continue to find this appointment process disproportionate given that = the processes for appointing the RPC, Secretariat, and Tools Team PM, = all of which probably have more impact than this new role, are nowhere = near as deeply specified. =20 >=20 > Jay >=20 > (PS. This is likely to be my last post until Jan 24th as I start my = summer vacation later today). >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director=20 > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >> On 30/12/2021, at 6:04 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> --On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 15:06 +1300 Jay Daley >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Briefly, this has become one or two orders of magnitude more >>> complex than is required for this role (remembering that the >>> role as written is very different from the previous role). >>> The overriding priority for committee members should be that >>> they understand this new role and will therefore find someone >>> who fits this role rather than the previous role. I've >>> regularly pushed back on having ex-officio appointments to the >>> selection committee because, from what I've seen so far, the >>> number of people who properly understand this new role is >>> actually quite limited in number. Picking a random IAB/IESG >>> person who isn't one of those means the committee has to >>> work much harder to bring them to speed.=20 >>=20 >> Jay, >>=20 >> Setting aside Stephen's reaction (and my similar one), whatever >> nostalgia I may feel for the old way of doing things and, hence, >> the old RSE role, had nothing to do with my comments. I think I >> understand the new role. It is clear from the above that my >> understanding is almost certainly different from yours. I got a >> hint of the differences from your "de facto" note, but this note >> from you makes the difference much more clear. >>=20 >> The more important comment above is about people who "properly >> understand this new role". While I agree that is important, >> the above, combined with your proposed sole control of the >> selection committee and other aspects of the hiring process, >> would appear to set you up as the sole arbiter of "proper >> understanding" as well as of the entire hiring and selection >> process. I'd have a problem with that sole arbiter role even if >> I was confident that our understanding agreed. =20 >>=20 >> I also note that I dud not say anything about an ex-officio >> appointment to the selection committee. I don't remember anyone >> else suggesting that either. I think that makes "Picking a >> random IAB/IESG person..." entirely a red herring. >>=20 >> I think the new role is going to be much harder than the old one >> because it requires, not only bringing a high level of expertise >> to the table, but of educating and persuading people about the >> implications of opinions formed on the basis of that expertise >> rather than being able to simply acting with authority when they >> think the time is right for that. We've removed the implicit >> requirement for management experience from the role but not the >> requirements for in-depth expertise and understanding. Assuming >> the personalities are right, that education and persuasion role >> will be easier for someone with more experience and knowledge to >> draw upon than for a more junior person whose input might be >> less persuasive. I'm expecting someone in that role who is >> capable of offering real advice based on their observations of >> what is going on, and doing so proactively, not just someone who >> is going to sit around waiting for questions or being presented >> with things and nodding approvingly.=20 >>=20 >> We haven't clearly defined that role or the requirements in the >> document other than to say "an expert in technical publishing" >> and "senior technical publishing professional who will apply >> their deep knowledge of technical publishing processes to the >> RFC Series" but even those are fairly high requirements. At >> least as I read them, they set a far higher bar than your de >> facto list. The role would change significantly if the document >> said that the RSCE was expected to speak only when spoken to and >> to answer questions only if they are asked by, e.g., the RSAB, >> RSWG, or ED but I can't find such text. Based, among other >> things, on experience doing some consulting for an important >> technical publisher and interacting with them over decisions >> similar to those the RFC Series has faced and will face and on >> experience with the RFC Series that had more to do with strategy >> than about roles and how they were defined (RFC 4846, 4897, >> etc., notwithstanding) and participation in the last search >> process (relevant not because I think the roles are the same but >> because those qualifications for expertise and deep knowledge >> are a subset of the criteria the last time around), I think the >> position is going to be very hard to fill. Based on that same >> experience and perspective I think that, if a selection is made >> on the basis of nothing more than your de facto criteria and >> ability to work well with you, we are not going to end up with >> the person in that role that many (at least) of us believe the >> phrases quoted above require. >>=20 >> Speaking only for myself, if we are not going to put someone in >> that position who has enough experience and perspective to exert >> real influence --not just answer technical publication questions >> that I'm confident the RPC could handle, at least if they are >> not micromanaged (but might or might not want to), we should >> reduce the complexity of the new model by just getting rid of >> the RSCE position.=20 >>=20 >> Now, I don't know what you are picturing and it is probably time >> that you be much more explicit about it. But, unless you can >> explain your "proper" understanding of the role --not just >> identify what you call de facto requirements and then >> hand-wave-- and there is consensus (at least rough) about that, >> I think we have three choices (the third of which I hope no one >> likes): >>=20 >> (1) We review our collective expectations of the position and >> write enough of a description and set of qualifications into the >> document to provide much of the content of a job posting or RFP >> without leaving you or your successors as sole arbiters of what >> the position is about. >>=20 >> (2) We provide some (mandatory) mechanism for input into, or >> review of, the selection committee membership to make sure that >> diverse perspectives are represented by competent people who are >> willing to work together. Eliot sees some issues with my >> version and I see some issues with his but I don't see much >> point in further discussion of those differences unless we can >> get the selection process away from the idea of you (with or >> without discussion within the LLC) being sole arbiter (subject >> only to your interpretation of the few words in the document) of >> what the position is about and what sort of qualifications are >> needed in someone who is selected. >>=20 >> See "obnoxious postscript" below for (3). >>=20 >>> I fully understand the depth of trauma some felt about the >>> previous role and that the scars are still fresh, but this is >>> a very different role and we don't need to overthink it.=20 >>=20 >> Whether I think you understand that or have the experience to >> make the judgment is probably irrelevant as is your claim on the >> subject. It is a very different role. Maybe I haven't been >> watching closely enough but, at least in the last few months, >> I've seen no signs of anyone who does not understand that and >> think it is very different. And that is what I've said >> multiple times: another thing that made the old role possible to >> fill by relying on tradition is that the tradition and >> precedents were there and clear to those most involved, >> something that is not the case for this new and very different >> role. =20 >>=20 >> To use an example so deliberately exaggerated that I hope no one >> will think it is a proposal or serious suggestion, one way to >> avoid trying to carefully define it would be to appoint Donald >> Duck to the role for a moderately short term, watch the ways in >> which his performance is or is not successful, and then revise >> our expectations and then either eliminate the position (because >> his failures didn't make any difference) or write a job >> description based on what we had learned by the end of that >> period. While I don't think anyone you would be likely to >> recruit and hire (with or without a selection committee you >> control) would perform nearly as badly as I would expect from >> said duck, appointing someone unqualified (however accidentally) >> and then learning from the experience is not an experiment I >> would choose to perform if we can avoid it. >>=20 >> best, >> john >>=20 >> Obnoxious postscript: >>=20 >> There is another way of looking at this, one I mentioned some >> time ago in the context of an "ultimate authority" discussion >> and that, IIR, no one found helpful. Let me try again, both to >> make a strawman counterproposal and to put my suggestion in a >> different light. The note quoted above reinforces the relevance >> of mentioning it. As this system has evolved and in the last >> analysis, the LLC is in charge of almost everything. They >> control the budget for anything that involves either work or >> money. They contract for, evaluate, manage, and control the >> RPC. While I would not expect it to ever happen, they could >> even deny publication for a particular document, approved by >> some stream, by forbidding the RPC to invest any resources in >> it. If the RSWG and RSAB propose a policy change, they can say >> "too expensive", "no budget", or "not something we are willing >> to manage" and there is no appeal. They control the RSCE >> selection, hiring, and evaluation processes and, if it suits >> their needs, convenience, or management style, could easily (and >> perhaps inadvertently) reduce that position to something very >> low-level with no influence on anything except to advise them >> when they decide they want advice. For those reasons, if there >> is a difference of opinion about what some provision of the >> "Model" document or other community-written specifications mean >> (not limited to the understanding of the RSCE role) and the >> community does not persuade them to change their view, their >> opinion will ultimately prevail. While they engage in >> consultations and other ways to measure community opinions and >> their own performance, they ultimately make the final decisions >> and are ultimately accountable to no one other than themselves >> (with the possible exception of the ISOC Board and the only >> option there, if it exists at all, would be very drastic). >>=20 >> We are, of course, protected from a grim version of that picture >> by the moral and ethical obligations that the LLC Board and >> Staff, especially the Executive Director, feel to the community >> and community consensus but those obligations are, to use ekr's >> term, aspirational, not anything that is legally binding or >> enforceable. >>=20 >> Given that description, which I believe summarizes the actual >> reality, perhaps what we should do with this Program is to >> declare success, thank Peter and the Co-chairs for their >> efforts, drop this fairly complicated "Model" document >> (including the RSWG and RSAB ideas), and replace it with an >> extremely short one that reaffirms the Streams, their >> relationships, and their independence of each other in terms of >> what is to be published. It would then say that the policies of >> the RFC Series and production of documents are ultimately >> administrative and financial matters to be managed, contracted >> or hired for as needed, and generally decided upon, by the LLC, >> encouraging them to engage in consultations with the community >> or selected subsets of it as they deem appropriate. >>=20 >> I don't believe we should do that but it raises questions that >> may be worth thinking about. And, again thinking about ekr's >> comments and the reality that almost nothing in the document is >> actionable (other than giving people new and different titles or >> affiliations) without LLC decisions; decisions that the LLC has, >> in principle, the option of not making. Given that, maybe we >> should be engaging, not in relitigating issues that made sense >> under the assumption that this Program had authority and could >> define an RSWG, RSAB, and other roles and put them in charge but >> recognizing that there is no "in charge" other than the LLC. If >> those roles are ultimately meaningless except to give >> non-binding advice to the LLC, perhaps the whole arrangement is >> much too complicated are likely to be far too expensive of the >> time of those involved, especially those who might otherwise be >> working on agendas more directly connected to the development of >> Internet technology.=20 >>=20 >> I did say "obnoxious", didn't I? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_BD9A5F71-5AE0-46CF-8265-3E8804368538 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Not = sure I can add much to this discussion which has not been said before = but as I hope this might help, here is my view. 

This is the text in draft:

"The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, = including members from the community, that will be responsible for = making a recommendation to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=E2=80=9D

I think the important point of this text is that = not the selection committee makes the final decision but the = LLC Board which is a group of community selected volunteers. Yes, = usually the LLC will likely follow the recommendation from the = selection committee but they also have to provide = proposer justifications to the LLC. The role of the search = committee really is to support the LLC Board with = additional expertise and it=E2=80=99s the LLC Board that knows = best which additional expertise is needed. As such I think I=E2=80=99m = okay with what is written in the draft = currently.

However, I would also like to note that th = text says the LCC Board forms the selection committee and not the ED. = While these are internals on how the LLC Board manages itself, I = would assume that=E2=80=99s rather a job for the LLC Board = chair with approval of the whole (community-selected) board than the ED. = This issue was discussed and confirmed (changing responsibility = from the ED to the whole LLC board in GitHub issue = #40).

If the ED would be the sole one to select the = committee I would be more concerned because I think = it=E2=80=99s easy (and often happens naturally) to select = people with a certain bias if selected by only one person. But = that=E2=80=99s not the process as specified to my = understanding.

I guess we could add a few more words about = who/which group of people should be considered to be on the committee = but not sure that is really needed or very helpful. I raised issue = #111 asking about the textual difference of the RSCE = selection committee vs. the RPC selection committee. For we RPC = selection committee we explicitly say that the ED is part = of this committee and the stream approving bodies are consulted. It was = confirmed to me that this difference was on = purpose. 

I also hope that the LLC Board would anyway = consult with the RSAB in such matters. So I=E2=80=99m have no = concern with the additional text proposed by Eliot. However, I hope that = the LLC Board would also consult about other (finical) topics that = are relevant or the RFC series and the RPC with the RSAB. Not sure if we = really need to say more about this explicitly.

Mirja



On 29. Dec 2021, at 20:50, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

John

I agree, the current model = does make the ED the sole arbiter of who meets the criteria to be on the = appointment committee and I can see why you might have concerns that = this could be misused.  I have no objection to any checking = mechanism for this, such as your proposed check with the RSAB but please = note, that would likely delay the appointment of the RSCE by ~3 months = because this process cannot then start until the RSAB is seated.  I = also btw, have no objection to the committee being chosen entirely = separately from me.  The one thing I would ask if we go that path = is that we document, as briefly as possible, the knowledge those people = are expected to have.

My plan, as = previously noted, was to come to this list with a proposed committee and = get feedback that way, as I am obliged to do by section 4.4 or RFC8711 = (which is phrased much stronger than an aspiration, but that=E2=80=99s a = conversation for another time). Of course, as you have explained, =  if this is not specified in the process then there is a = possibility that another ED might not do that.

Even if we don=E2=80=99t put any of those safeguards in = place, I will continue to find this appointment process disproportionate = given that the processes for appointing the RPC, Secretariat, and Tools = Team PM, all of which probably have more impact than this new role, are = nowhere near as deeply specified.  

Jay

(PS. This is likely to be my = last post until Jan 24th as I start my summer vacation later today).


--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

On 30/12/2021, at 6:04 = AM, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

--On Wednesday, = December 29, 2021 15:06 +1300 Jay Daley
<exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

Briefly, this has become = one or two orders of magnitude more
complex than is = required for this role (remembering that the
role as = written is very different from the previous role).
The = overriding priority for committee members should be that
they understand this new role and will therefore find = someone
who fits this role rather than the previous role. =  I've
regularly pushed back on having ex-officio = appointments to the
selection committee because, from what = I've seen so far, the
number of people who properly = understand this new role is
actually quite limited in = number. Picking a random IAB/IESG
person who isn't one of = those means the committee has to
work much harder to bring = them to speed.

Jay,

Setting aside Stephen's reaction (and my = similar one), whatever
nostalgia I may feel for the old = way of doing things and, hence,
the old RSE role, had = nothing to do with my comments.  I think I
understand = the new role.  It is clear from the above that my
understanding is almost certainly different from yours. =  I got a
hint of the differences from your "de facto" = note, but this note
from you makes the difference much = more clear.

The more important comment = above is about people who "properly
understand this new = role".   While I agree that is important,
the = above, combined with your proposed sole control of the
selection committee and other aspects of the hiring = process,
would appear to set you up as the sole arbiter of = "proper
understanding" as well as of the entire hiring and = selection
process.  I'd have a problem with that sole = arbiter role even if
I was confident that our = understanding agreed.  

I also note = that I dud not say anything about an ex-officio
appointment = to the selection committee.  I don't remember anyone
else suggesting that either.  I think that makes = "Picking a
random IAB/IESG person..." entirely a red = herring.

I think the new role is going to = be much harder than the old one
because it requires, not = only bringing a high level of expertise
to the table, but = of educating and persuading people about the
implications = of opinions formed on the basis of that expertise
rather = than being able to simply acting with authority when they
think the time is right for that.  We've removed the = implicit
requirement for management experience from the = role but not the
requirements for in-depth expertise and = understanding.  Assuming
the personalities are right, = that education and persuasion role
will be easier for = someone with more experience and knowledge to
draw upon = than for a more junior person whose input might be
less = persuasive.  I'm expecting someone in that role who is
capable of offering real advice based on their observations = of
what is going on, and doing so proactively, not just = someone who
is going to sit around waiting for questions = or being presented
with things and nodding approvingly. =

We haven't clearly defined that role or = the requirements in the
document other than to say "an = expert in technical publishing"
and "senior technical = publishing professional who will apply
their deep = knowledge of technical publishing processes to the
RFC = Series" but even those are fairly high requirements.  At
least as I read them, they set a far higher bar than your = de
facto list.  The role would change significantly = if the document
said that the RSCE was expected to speak = only when spoken to and
to answer questions only if they = are asked by, e.g., the RSAB,
RSWG, or ED but I can't find = such text.  Based, among other
things, on experience = doing some consulting for an important
technical publisher = and interacting with them over decisions
similar to those = the RFC Series has faced and will face and on
experience = with the RFC Series that had more to do with strategy
than = about roles and how they were defined (RFC 4846, 4897,
etc.,= notwithstanding) and participation in the last search
process (relevant not because I think the roles are the same = but
because those qualifications for expertise and deep = knowledge
are a subset of the criteria the last time = around), I think the
position is going to be very hard to = fill.  Based on that same
experience and perspective = I think that, if a selection is made
on the basis of = nothing more than your de facto criteria and
ability to = work well with you, we are not going to end up with
the = person in that role that many (at least) of us believe the
phrases quoted above require.

Speaking only for myself, if we are not going to put someone = in
that position who has enough experience and perspective = to exert
real influence --not just answer technical = publication questions
that I'm confident the RPC could = handle, at least if they are
not micromanaged (but might = or might not want to), we should
reduce the complexity of = the new model by just getting rid of
the RSCE position. =

Now, I don't know what you are picturing = and it is probably time
that you be much more explicit = about it.   But, unless you can
explain your = "proper" understanding of the role --not just
identify = what you call de facto requirements and then
hand-wave-- = and there is consensus (at least rough) about that,
I = think we have three choices (the third of which I hope no one
likes):

(1) We review our = collective expectations of the position and
write enough = of a description and set of qualifications into the
document= to provide much of the content of a job posting or RFP
without leaving you or your successors as sole arbiters of = what
the position is about.

(2)= We provide some (mandatory) mechanism for input into, or
review of, the selection committee membership to make sure = that
diverse perspectives are represented by competent = people who are
willing to work together.  Eliot sees = some issues with my
version and I see some issues with his = but I don't see much
point in further discussion of those = differences unless we can
get the selection process away = from the idea of you (with or
without discussion within = the LLC) being sole arbiter (subject
only to your = interpretation of the few words in the document) of
what = the position is about and what sort of qualifications are
needed in someone who is selected.

See "obnoxious postscript" below for (3).

I fully understand the = depth of trauma some felt about the
previous role and that = the scars are still fresh, but this is
a very different = role and we don't need to overthink it.

Whether I think you understand that or have the experience = to
make the judgment is probably irrelevant as is your = claim on the
subject.  It is a very different role. =  Maybe I haven't been
watching closely enough but, at = least in the last few months,
I've seen no signs of anyone = who does not understand that and
think it is very = different.   And that is what I've said
multiple = times: another thing that made the old role possible to
fill= by relying on tradition is that the tradition and
precedents were there and clear to those most involved,
something that is not the case for this new and very = different
role.  

To use = an example so deliberately exaggerated that I hope no one
will think it is a proposal or serious suggestion, one way = to
avoid trying to carefully define it would be to appoint = Donald
Duck to the role for a moderately short term, watch = the ways in
which his performance is or is not successful, = and then revise
our expectations and then either eliminate = the position (because
his failures didn't make any = difference) or write a job
description based on what we = had learned by the end of that
period.  While I don't = think anyone you would be likely to
recruit and hire (with = or without a selection committee you
control) would = perform nearly as badly as I would expect from
said duck, = appointing someone unqualified (however accidentally)
and = then learning from the experience is not an experiment I
would choose to perform if we can avoid it.

best,
 john

Obnoxious postscript:

There is = another way of looking at this, one I mentioned some
time = ago in the context of an "ultimate authority" discussion
and= that, IIR, no one found helpful.  Let me try again, both to
make a strawman counterproposal and to put my suggestion in = a
different light.  The note quoted above reinforces = the relevance
of mentioning it.  As this system has = evolved and in the last
analysis, the LLC is in charge of = almost everything.  They
control the budget for = anything that involves either work or
money.  They = contract for, evaluate, manage, and control the
RPC. =  While I would not expect it to ever happen, they could
even deny publication for a particular document, approved = by
some stream, by forbidding the RPC to invest any = resources in
it.  If the RSWG and RSAB propose a = policy change, they can say
"too expensive", "no budget", = or "not something we are willing
to manage" and there is = no appeal.  They control the RSCE
selection, hiring, = and evaluation processes and, if it suits
their needs, = convenience, or management style, could easily (and
perhaps = inadvertently) reduce that position to something very
low-level with no influence on anything except to advise = them
when they decide they want advice.  For those = reasons, if there
is a difference of opinion about what = some provision of the
"Model" document or other = community-written specifications mean
(not limited to the = understanding of the RSCE role) and the
community does not = persuade them to change their view, their
opinion will = ultimately prevail.  While they engage in
consultations= and other ways to measure community opinions and
their = own performance, they ultimately make the final decisions
and are ultimately accountable to no one other than = themselves
(with the possible exception of the ISOC Board = and the only
option there, if it exists at all, would be = very drastic).

We are, of course, protected = from a grim version of that picture
by the moral and = ethical obligations that the LLC Board and
Staff, = especially the Executive Director, feel to the community
and= community consensus but those obligations are, to use ekr's
term, aspirational, not anything that is legally binding = or
enforceable.

Given that = description, which I believe summarizes the actual
reality, = perhaps what we should do with this Program is to
declare = success, thank Peter and the Co-chairs for their
efforts, = drop this fairly complicated "Model" document
(including = the RSWG and RSAB ideas), and replace it with an
extremely = short one that reaffirms the Streams, their
relationships, = and their independence of each other in terms of
what is = to be published.  It would then say that the policies of
the RFC Series and production of documents are ultimately
administrative and financial matters to be managed, = contracted
or hired for as needed, and generally decided = upon, by the LLC,
encouraging them to engage in = consultations with the community
or selected subsets of it = as they deem appropriate.

I don't believe = we should do that but it raises questions that
may be = worth thinking about.  And, again thinking about ekr's
comments and the reality that almost nothing in the document = is
actionable (other than giving people new and different = titles or
affiliations) without LLC decisions; decisions = that the LLC has,
in principle, the option of not making. = Given that, maybe we
should be engaging, not in = relitigating issues that made sense
under the assumption = that this Program had authority and could
define an RSWG, = RSAB, and other roles and put them in charge but
recognizing= that there is no "in charge" other than the LLC.  If
those roles are ultimately meaningless except to give
non-binding advice to the LLC, perhaps the whole arrangement = is
much too complicated are likely to be far too expensive = of the
time of those involved, especially those who might = otherwise be
working on agendas more directly connected to = the development of
Internet technology.

I did say "obnoxious", didn't I?





-- =
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future


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= --Apple-Mail=_BD9A5F71-5AE0-46CF-8265-3E8804368538-- From nobody Mon Jan 3 05:59:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FDA3A0801; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 05:59:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t0L_UFcTQ5ty; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 05:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FF973A07FC; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 05:59:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n4Nro-0006bv-9S; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 08:59:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 08:59:10 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Jay Daley cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear , Michael StJohns Message-ID: <2E2B41B9FBF36E3C8E01EDE2@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 13:59:27 -0000 Mirja, FWIW, I found this analysis very helpful. john --On Monday, January 3, 2022 14:43 +0100 Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Not sure I can add much to this discussion which has not been > said before but as I hope this might help, here is my view.=20 >=20 > This is the text in draft: >=20 > "The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including > members from the community, that will be responsible for > making a recommendation to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role." >=20 > I think the important point of this text is that not the > selection committee makes the final decision but the LLC Board > which is a group of community selected volunteers. Yes, > usually the LLC will likely follow the recommendation from the > selection committee but they also have to provide proposer > justifications to the LLC. The role of the search committee > really is to support the LLC Board with additional expertise > and it's the LLC Board that knows best which additional > expertise is needed. As such I think I'm okay with what is > written in the draft currently. >=20 > However, I would also like to note that th text says the LCC > Board forms the selection committee and not the ED. While > these are internals on how the LLC Board manages itself, I > would assume that's rather a job for the LLC Board chair > with approval of the whole (community-selected) board than the > ED. This issue was discussed and confirmed (changing > responsibility from the ED to the whole LLC board in GitHub > issue #40). >=20 > If the ED would be the sole one to select the committee I > would be more concerned because I think it's easy (and often > happens naturally) to select people with a certain bias if > selected by only one person. But that's not the process as > specified to my understanding. >=20 > I guess we could add a few more words about who/which group of > people should be considered to be on the committee but not > sure that is really needed or very helpful. I raised issue > #111 asking about the textual difference of the RSCE selection > committee vs. the RPC selection committee. For we RPC > selection committee we explicitly say that the ED is part of > this committee and the stream approving bodies are consulted. > It was confirmed to me that this difference was on purpose.=20 >=20 > I also hope that the LLC Board would anyway consult with the > RSAB in such matters. So I'm have no concern with the > additional text proposed by Eliot. However, I hope that the > LLC Board would also consult about other (finical) topics that > are relevant or the RFC series and the RPC with the RSAB. Not > sure if we really need to say more about this explicitly. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 29. Dec 2021, at 20:50, Jay Daley >> wrote: >>=20 >> John >>=20 >> I agree, the current model does make the ED the sole arbiter >> of who meets the criteria to be on the appointment committee >> and I can see why you might have concerns that this could be >> misused. I have no objection to any checking mechanism for >> this, such as your proposed check with the RSAB but please >> note, that would likely delay the appointment of the RSCE by >> ~3 months because this process cannot then start until the >> RSAB is seated. I also btw, have no objection to the >> committee being chosen entirely separately from me. The one >> thing I would ask if we go that path is that we document, as >> briefly as possible, the knowledge those people are expected >> to have. >>=20 >> My plan, as previously noted, was to come to this list with a >> proposed committee and get feedback that way, as I am obliged >> to do by section 4.4 or RFC8711 (which is phrased much >> stronger than an aspiration, but that's a conversation for >> another time). Of course, as you have explained, if this is >> not specified in the process then there is a possibility that >> another ED might not do that. >>=20 >> Even if we don't put any of those safeguards in place, I >> will continue to find this appointment process >> disproportionate given that the processes for appointing the >> RPC, Secretariat, and Tools Team PM, all of which probably >> have more impact than this new role, are nowhere near as >> deeply specified. =20 >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >> (PS. This is likely to be my last post until Jan 24th as I >> start my summer vacation later today). >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director=20 >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >>> On 30/12/2021, at 6:04 AM, John C Klensin >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> --On = Wedn=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80esday, = December 29, =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=802021 15:06 = +1300 Jay=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = Daley >> = wrot=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e: >>=20 >>> = Briefly=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80, = this has become on=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e or two = orders of m=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80agnitude = more >>> = c=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80omplex = than is = requi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80red for this role = (r=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ememberin= g that the =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>>> role as = written=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 is = very different = f=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rom the = previous rol=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e). >>> The = overrid=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ing = priority for com=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80mittee = members = shoul=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d be that >>> they = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80understand = this new =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80role and = will = theref=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ore = find someone >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> who = fits this = role=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 rather than the = pre=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80vious = role. I've >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> = regularly pushed = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80back on having = ex-of=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ficio = appointments t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80o the >>> = selection=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = committee because, =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80from what = I've seen = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80so far, the >>> num=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ber = of people who pr=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80operly = understand = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80is new role is >>> = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80actually = quite = limit=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ed in number. = Pickin=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80g a = random IAB/IESG =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>>> person = who isn'=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t = one of those = means=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 the = committee has t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80o >>> work much = har=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80der to = bring them to=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 speed.=20 >>=20 >> Ja=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80y, >>=20 >> Setting = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80aside = Stephen's reac=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tion = (and my = similar=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 one), whatever >> = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nostalgia = I may feel=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = for the old way of = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80doing = things and, he=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nce, >> the old = RSE=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 role, = had nothing t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80o do with = my = comment=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s. = I think I >> = un=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80derstand = the new = rol=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e. It is clear = from=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 the = above that my =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> = understanding is = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80almost certainly = dif=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ferent = from yours. =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80I got a >> hint of = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80the = differences from=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 your = "de facto" = not=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e, but this note >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 from = you makes the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80difference = much more=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = clear. >>=20 >> The=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = more important comm=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ent = above is about p=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80eople who = "properly =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> understand = this =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80new role". While = I=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 agree = that is impor=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tant, >> the = above,=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = combined with your =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80proposed = sole = contro=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80l of = the >> = selecti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on = committee and oth=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80er = aspects of the = hi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ring process, >> wo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80uld = appear to set = yo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80u up as the sole = arb=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80iter of = "proper >> = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80understandi= ng" as = we=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ll as of the entire = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hiring and selection=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> process. I'd = h=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ave a = problem with t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hat sole = arbiter = rol=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e even if >> I was = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80confident = that our u=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nderstandi= ng agreed.=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = =20 >>=20 >> I also = n=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ote that = I dud not s=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ay = anything about = an=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 ex-officio >> = appo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80intment= to the selec=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tion = committee. I d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on't = remember = anyone=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> else = suggesting=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = that either. I thi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nk that = makes = "Picki=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ng a >> random = IAB/=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80IESG = person..." enti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rely a = red herring. =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>>=20 >> I think = the=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 new = role is going t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80o be much = harder = tha=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80n the old one >> be=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80cause = it requires, = n=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ot only bringing a = h=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80igh level = of experti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80se >> to the = table,=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 but = of educating an=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d = persuading people = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80about the >> = implic=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ation= s of opinions f=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ormed on = the basis = o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80f that expertise >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 rather = than being = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ble to simply = acting=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = with authority when=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 they >> think the = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80time is = right for th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80at. = We've removed = t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80he implicit >> = requ=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80irement= for manageme=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nt = experience from t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80he role = but not the =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> = requirements = for=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = in-depth expertise = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80and = understanding. =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80Assuming >> the = per=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80sonaliti= es are right=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80, = that education = and=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 persuasion role >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 will be = easier for =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80someone = with more = ex=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80perience and = knowled=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ge = to >> draw upon = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80than for a = more juni=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or = person whose = inpu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t might be >> less = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80persuasive.= I'm exp=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ecting = someone in = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80at role who is >> c=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80apable = of offering = r=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80eal advice based on = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80their = observations o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80f >> what is going = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on, and = doing so pro=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80actively= , not just s=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80omeone = who >> is = go=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ing to = sit around wa=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80iting = for questions = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or being presented =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> with = things and = n=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80odding approvingly. = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >>=20 >> We = haven't=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = clearly defined tha=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t role = or the requir=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ement= s in the >> = do=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80cument = other than = to=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 say "an expert in = t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80echnical publishing"=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= >> and "senior = tec=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hnical = publishing pr=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ofessiona= l who will = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80apply >> their = deep=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = knowledge of techni=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80cal = publishing proce=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80sses = to the >> RFC = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80Series" = but even tho=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80se are = fairly high r=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80equirement= s. At >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 least = as I read = the=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80m, they set a far = hi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80gher bar = than your d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e >> facto list. = T=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80he role = would change=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = significantly if = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e document >> said = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80that the = RSCE was ex=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80pected = to speak = only=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 when spoken to and =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> to answer = questi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ons = only if they = are=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 asked = by, e.g., the=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 RSAB, >> RSWG, or = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ED but I = can't find =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80such text. = Based, = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80mong other >> thing=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s, = on experience doi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ng some = consulting = f=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or an important >> = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80technical = publisher = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80and interacting = with=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 them = over decisions=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> similar to = thos=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e the = RFC Series has=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 faced = and will = face=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 and on >> = experien=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ce = with the RFC Seri=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80es = that had more to = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80do with strategy >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 than = about roles = an=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d how they were = defi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ned = (RFC 4846, 4897,=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> etc., = notwithst=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80an= ding) and particip=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ati= on in the last se=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80arch >> process = (re=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80levant = not because I=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 think = the roles = are=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 the same but >> be=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80cause = those qualific=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ati= ons for = expertise=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 and deep knowledge =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> are a = subset of = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80the criteria the = las=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t time = around), I th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ink the >> = position=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = is going to be very=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 hard = to fill. = Base=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d on that same >> = e=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80xperience = and perspe=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ctive= I think that, = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80if a selection is = ma=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80de >> on the basis = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80of nothing = more than=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 your = de facto = crite=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ria and >> ability = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to work = well with yo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80u, we = are not going = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to end up with >> t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80he = person in that = ro=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80le that many (at = lea=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80st) of = us believe th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e >> phrases = quoted=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = above require. >> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> Speaking only = f=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or = myself, if we are=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 not = going to put = so=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80meone in >> that = po=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80sition = who has enoug=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80h = experience and per=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80spective= to exert >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> real = influence = --n=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ot just answer = techn=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ical = publication que=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80stions >> that I'm = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80confident = the RPC co=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80uld = handle, at = least=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 if they are >> not=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = micromanaged (but m=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ight or = might not = wa=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nt to), we should >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> reduce = the = complex=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ity = of the new = model=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 by = just getting rid=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 of >> the RSCE = pos=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ition.=20 >>=20 >> Now=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80, I = don't know what =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80you are = picturing = an=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d it is probably = tim=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e >> that you be = mu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ch more = explicit abo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ut it. = But, = unless=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 you can >> explain=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = your "proper" under=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80standi= ng of the = role=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 --not just >> = iden=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tify = what you call = d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e facto = requirements=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= and then >> = hand-w=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ave--= and there is c=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80onsensus = (at least = r=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ough) about that, >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> I think = we have = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ree choices (the = thi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rd of = which I hope n=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80o one >> likes): >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>=20 >> (1) We = review=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 our = collective expe=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ctation= s of the = posi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tion and >> write = e=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nough of = a descripti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on= and set of qualif=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80icati= ons into the >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> = document to = provid=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = much of the = conten=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t of = a job posting o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80r RFP >> without = le=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80aving = you or your su=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ccessors = as sole = arb=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80iters of what >> th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = position is = about.=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >>=20 >> (2) We = pro=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80vide = some (mandatory=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80)= mechanism for inpu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t = into, or >> revie=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80w = of, the selection =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80committee = membership=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = to make sure that =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> diverse = perspecti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ve= s are represented = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80by = competent people =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80who are >> willing = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to work = together. E=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80liot sees = some = issue=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s = with my >> versio=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80n = and I see some iss=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ues = with his but I = d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on't see much >> po=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80int = in further discu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ssion = of those diffe=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rences= unless we = can=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> get the = selecti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on = process away from=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 the = idea of you = (wi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80th or >> without = di=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80scussion = within the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80LLC) being = sole = arbi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ter (subject >> onl=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80y to = your interpreta=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t= ion of the few word=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s in = the document) = o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80f >> what the = posit=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ion = is about and wha=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t sort = of = qualificat=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80i= ons are >> needed = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80in someone = who is se=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80lected. >>=20 >> See=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = "obnoxious postscri=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80pt"= below for (3). =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>>=20 >>> I fully = und=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80erstand = the depth of=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 trauma = some felt = ab=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80out the >>> = previou=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s = role and that the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80scars are = still = fres=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80h, but this is >>> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80a very = different = rol=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e and we don't need = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to = overthink it.=20 >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>=20 >> Whether I = thi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nk you = understand th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80at or = have the = exper=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ience to >> make = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = judgment is probab=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ly = irrelevant as is =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80your claim = on the >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> = subject. It is a = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80very different = role.=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = Maybe I haven't be=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80en >> watching = clos=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ely = enough but, at l=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80east in = the last = few=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = months, >> I've = se=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80en no = signs of anyon=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e who = does not under=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80stand = that and >> t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hink = it is very diff=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80erent. = And that = is=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 what I've said >> = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80multiple = times: = anot=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80her thing that made = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80the old = role possibl=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = to >> fill by = rel=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ying on = tradition is=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 that = the tradition = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80and >> precedents = w=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ere there = and clear =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to those = most = involv=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ed, >> something = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80at is = not the case f=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or this = new and = very=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 different >> role.=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 =20 >>=20 >> To use = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80n example = so deliber=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80atel= y exaggerated th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80at I = hope no one >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 will = think it is a =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80proposal = or serious =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80suggestion,= one way = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to >> avoid trying = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80to = carefully define =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80it would = be to = appoi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nt = Donald >> Duck t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80o = the role for a mod=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80erately = short term, = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80watch the ways in >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> which = his = performa=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nce= is or is not = suc=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80cessful,= and then re=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80vise >> our = expecta=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tion= s and then eithe=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80r = eliminate the posi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tion = (because >> hi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s = failures didn't = ma=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ke any difference) = o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80r write a = job >> = de=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80scription= based on = w=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hat we had learned = b=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80y the end = of that >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> period. = While I = d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on't think anyone = yo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80u would = be likely to=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> recruit and = hir=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e (with = or without a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = selection = committee=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = you >> control) = wo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80uld = perform nearly a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s badly = as I would = e=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80xpect from >> said = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80duck, = appointing som=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80eone = unqualified = (ho=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80wever accidentally) =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> and then = learnin=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80g = from the = experienc=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = is not an experime=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nt = I >> would = choos=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e to = perform if we c=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80an avoid = it. >>=20 >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> best, >> john >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>=20 >> Obnoxious = pos=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tscript:= >>=20 >> Th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ere = is another way = o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80f looking at this, = o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ne I = mentioned some =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> time ago = in the = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80context of an = "ultim=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ate = authority" discu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ssion >> and that, = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80IIR, no = one found he=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80lpful. = Let me try = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80gain, both to >> ma=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ke a = strawman counte=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rprop= osal and to = put=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 my suggestion in a =B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> different = light.=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = The note quoted = ab=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ove = reinforces the r=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80elevance >> of = ment=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ioning = it. As this =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80system has = evolved = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nd in the last >> = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nalysis, = the LLC is = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80in charge of almost = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80everything.= They >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> control = the budget=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = for anything that = i=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nvolves = either work =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or >> money. They = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80contract = for, evalua=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80te, = manage, and cont=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rol = the >> RPC. = Wh=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ile I = would not expe=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ct it = to ever = happen=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80, they could >> eve=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80n = deny publication = f=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or a particular = docu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ment, = approved by >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> some = stream, by fo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rbidding = the RPC to = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80invest any = resources=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = in >> it. If the = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80RSWG and = RSAB propos=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e a = policy change, t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hey can = say >> "too=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = expensive", "no bud=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80get", = or "not = someth=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ing we are willing =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> to = manage" and = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ere is no appeal. = T=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hey = control the RSCE=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> selection, = hiri=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ng, = and evaluation p=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rocesses = and, if it = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80suits >> their = need=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s, = convenience, or m=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80anagement = style, = cou=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ld easily (and >> p=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80erhaps = inadvertently=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= ) reduce that = positi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on = to something very=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> low-level with = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80no = influence on anyt=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hing = except to = advis=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e them >> when = they=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = decide they want ad=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80vice. = For those = rea=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80sons, if there >> i=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80s a = difference of op=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80inion = about what = som=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e provision of the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> "Model" = document = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or other community-w=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= ritten specification=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= s mean >> (not = limi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ted to = the understan=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80di= ng of the RSCE rol=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e) and = the >> = commu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nity = does not persua=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80de = them to change th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80eir = view, their >> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80opinion = will = ultimat=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ely prevail. While = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80they = engage in >> = c=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80onsultatio= ns and = oth=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80er ways to measure = c=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ommunity = opinions an=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d >> their own = perf=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ormance= , they ultima=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tely = make the final =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80decisions >> and ar=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = ultimately account=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80able= to no one = other=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 than themselves >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 (with = the possible =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80exception = of the = ISO=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80C Board and the = only=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> option there, = i=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80f it = exists at all, =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80would be = very = drasti=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80c). >>=20 >> We are,=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = of course, protecte=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d = from a grim versio=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80n of = that picture >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> by the = moral and = e=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80thical obligations = t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hat the = LLC Board an=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d >> Staff, = especia=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80lly = the Executive Di=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rector, = feel to the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80community >> and = co=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80mmunity = consensus bu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t those = obligations = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80are, to use ekr's >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> term, = aspirational=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= , not anything that = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80is legally = binding o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80r >> enforceable. =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>>=20 >> Given that = d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80escription= , which I =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80believe = summarizes = t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80he actual >> = realit=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80y, = perhaps what we s=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hould do = with this = P=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rogram is to >> dec=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80lare = success, thank =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80Peter and = the = Co-cha=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80irs = for their >> = ef=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80forts, = drop this = fai=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rly complicated = "Mod=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80el" = document >> = (in=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80cluding = the RSWG = and=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 RSAB ideas), and = re=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80place it = with an >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = extremely short = one=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 that reaffirms the = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80Streams, = their >> = r=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80elationshi= ps, and = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80eir independence of = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80each other = in terms =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80of >> what is to = be=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = published. It woul=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d then = say that the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80policies = of >> the =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80RFC = Series and produ=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ction = of documents = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80re ultimately >> = ad=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ministrat= ive and fin=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ancial = matters to = be=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 managed, = contracted=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> or hired for = as=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 needed, = and general=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ly = decided upon, by =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80the LLC, >> = encoura=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ging= them to engage =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80in = consultations = wit=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80h the community >> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80or = selected subsets = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80of it as they deem = a=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ppropriate= . >>=20 >>=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 I don't = believe we = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80should do that but = i=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80t raises = questions t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hat >> may be = worth=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = thinking about. An=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80d, again = thinking = ab=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80out ekr's >> = commen=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ts = and the reality t=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80hat = almost nothing = i=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80n the document is >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80> = actionable (other = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80than giving people = n=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ew and = different tit=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80les or >> = affiliati=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80on= s) without LLC dec=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80isions; = decisions = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80at the LLC has, >> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80in = principle, the = op=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tion of not making. = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80Given = that, maybe we=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >> should be = engag=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ing, = not in relitiga=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tin= g issues that mad=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e sense >> under = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e = assumption that th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80is = Program had = autho=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rity and could >> d=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80efine = an RSWG, = RSAB,=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 and other roles = and=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 put = them in charge =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80but >> recognizing = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80that there = is no "in=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = charge" other than = =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80the LLC. If >> tho=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80se = roles are ultimat=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ely = meaningless exce=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80pt to = give >> = non-b=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80inding= advice to = the=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 LLC, perhaps the = wh=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ole = arrangement is =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> much = too = complica=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ted= are likely to = be=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 far too = expensive o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80f the >> time of = th=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ose = involved, especi=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ally = those who = might=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 otherwise be >> wo=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80rking = on agendas = mor=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80e directly = connected=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = to the development =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80of >> Internet = tech=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80nology.= =20 >>=20 >> I =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80did = say = "obnoxious",=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= didn't I? >>=20 >> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80--=20 >> = Rfced-future=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80= mailing list >> = Rf=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80ced-futur= e@iab.org =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80>> https://www.iab.o=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2= =80=80rg/mailman/listinfo/=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3= =B8=80=E2=80=80rfced-future >>=20 >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80=20 > --=20 > = Rfced-fu=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80tur= e mailing list >=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80=80 = Rfced-future@iab.or=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2= =80=80g > https://www.iab=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E2=80= =80.org/mailman/listinf=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8=80=E3=B8= =80=E2=80=80o/rfced-future =E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80=E0=B4=80=E0=A8=80 From nobody Mon Jan 3 06:52:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97913A096B; 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Hi Mirja,

On 03.01.22 14:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
This is the text in draft:

"The IETF LL= C will form a selection committee, including members from the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.= =E2=80=9D=

[snip]

= However, I would also=C2=A0like to note that th text says the LCC Bo= ard forms the selection committee and not the ED. While these are internals on how the LLC Board manages itself, I would=C2=A0assume that=E2=80=99s rather a job for the LLC=C2= =A0Board chair with approval of the whole (community-selected) board than the ED. This issue was discussed and confirmed (changing=C2=A0responsibility from the ED to the=C2=A0whole= LLC board in=C2=A0GitHub issue #40).

Yes, that was indeed Issue 40 which you opened in April and was closed after we discussed it in detail and came to a conclusion in July.=C2=A0 However, by design, the text above does not refe= r to the board, but rather to the LLC.=C2=A0 The sentiment that carri= ed the day at the time was perhaps best summarized by Martin Thomson:<= /p>

Split the difference and say the LLC is responsible, this would likely fall to the Executive Director, but no need to explicitly specify that
(See the notes= ).

It's not that the LLC board DOES decide or that the ED decides on the RSCE position, but rather it is for the the LLC board to decide whether to delegate that decision.

What I am drawing from all of this, by the way, is the importance of closing this document, because people really are losing context of the decisions that have been made.=C2=A0 The chairs will have mo= re to say on that shortly.

Eliot

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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bVvPUAFmUHGB; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 07:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 988393A0A13; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 07:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee733e700114c3388f1dd340c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e733:e700:114c:3388:f1dd:340c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1n4PBh-0005kC-FW; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:23:53 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8FAEAA3E-86BD-4680-938F-3FA6105BE0A6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:23:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Jay Daley , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns To: Eliot Lear References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1641223438;5f5d6403; X-HE-SMSGID: 1n4PBh-0005kC-FW Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 15:24:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8FAEAA3E-86BD-4680-938F-3FA6105BE0A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Elliot, I=E2=80=99m not disagreeing, nor do I want to reopen this issue but now = that you state it this way it feels to me it needs a bit of = clarification. First I was assuming that when we say IETF LLC here, we actually mean = the Board as the IETF LCC Board is defined as "multi-member "manager" of = the IETF LLC=E2=80=9D in RFC8711. Decision have to be made by humans and = not an abstract entity and therefore the board would be responsible = here. Further, the IETF LLC is mention two times here: 1) to form the = selection committee, 2) to make a final decision on the RSCE. The board = can delegate the task to =E2=80=9Ccreate=E2=80=9D the search committee = to anybody any time, however, the responsibility for these decisions = stays with the board from my point of view. I don=E2=80=99t think they = can actually delegate a =E2=80=9Cdecision=E2=80=9D. Mirja P.S.: I reviewed the notes you linked below and if you read them at = whole and particularly Jay=E2=80=99s comments (e.g. "the LLC board is = the final sign-off=E2=80=9D), I believe this also reflect my assumption = that then board is responsible when we say IETF LLC in the text. The = sentence you cited is out of context is from the beginning of the = discussion and not the end. At that point the discussion was about the = question if we need to mention a search (or selection) committee at all = in the document or lave this entirely to the LLC. > On 3. Jan 2022, at 15:51, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > On 03.01.22 14:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> This is the text in draft: >>=20 >> "The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from = the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to = the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=E2=80=9D >=20 >> [snip] >=20 >> However, I would also like to note that th text says the LCC Board = forms the selection committee and not the ED. While these are internals = on how the LLC Board manages itself, I would assume that=E2=80=99s = rather a job for the LLC Board chair with approval of the whole = (community-selected) board than the ED. This issue was discussed and = confirmed (changing responsibility from the ED to the whole LLC board in = GitHub issue #40). > Yes, that was indeed Issue 40 which you opened in April and was closed = after we discussed it in detail and came to a conclusion in July. = However, by design, the text above does not refer to the board, but = rather to the LLC. The sentiment that carried the day at the time was = perhaps best summarized by Martin Thomson: >=20 >=20 >> Split the difference and say the LLC is responsible, this would = likely fall to the Executive Director, but no need to explicitly specify = that > (See the notes ). >=20 > It's not that the LLC board DOES decide or that the ED decides on the = RSCE position, but rather it is for the the LLC board to decide whether = to delegate that decision. >=20 > What I am drawing from all of this, by the way, is the importance of = closing this document, because people really are losing context of the = decisions that have been made. The chairs will have more to say on that = shortly. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > --Apple-Mail=_8FAEAA3E-86BD-4680-938F-3FA6105BE0A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Elliot,

I=E2=80=99m = not disagreeing, nor do I want to reopen this issue but now that you = state it this way it feels to me it needs a bit of = clarification.

First I was assuming that when we say IETF LLC here, we = actually mean the Board as the IETF LCC Board is defined as "multi-member "manager" of the IETF LLC=E2=80=9D= in RFC8711. Decision have to be made by humans and not = an abstract entity and therefore the board would = be responsible here.

Further, the IETF LLC is mention two = times here: 1) to form the selection committee, 2) to make a final = decision on the RSCE. The board can delegate the task to =E2=80=9Ccreate=E2= =80=9D the search committee to anybody any time, however, the = responsibility for these decisions stays with the board from my point of = view. I don=E2=80=99t think they can actually delegate a = =E2=80=9Cdecision=E2=80=9D.

Mirja

P.S.: I reviewed the notes you linked below and if you read = them at whole and particularly Jay=E2=80=99s comments (e.g. "the LLC board is the final = sign-off=E2=80=9D), I believe this also reflect my = assumption that then board is responsible when we say IETF LLC = in the text. The sentence you cited is out of context is from the = beginning of the discussion and not the end. At that point the = discussion was about the question if we need to mention a search = (or selection) committee at all in the document or lave this = entirely to the LLC.



On 3. = Jan 2022, at 15:51, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

=20 =20

Hi Mirja,

On 03.01.22 14:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
This is the text in draft:

"The IETF = LLC will form a selection committee, including members from the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to the IETF LLC for the RSCE = role.=E2=80=9D

[snip]

However, I would also like to note that th text says the LCC = Board forms the selection committee and not the ED. While these are internals on how the LLC Board manages itself, I would assume that=E2=80=99s rather a job for the = LLC Board chair with approval of the whole (community-selected) board than the ED. This issue was discussed and confirmed (changing responsibility from the ED to = the whole LLC board in GitHub issue #40).

Yes, that was indeed Issue 40 which you = opened in April and was closed after we discussed it in detail and came to a conclusion in July.  However, by design, the text above does not refer to the board, but rather to the LLC.  The sentiment that = carried the day at the time was perhaps best summarized by Martin = Thomson:


Split the difference and say the LLC is responsible, this would likely fall to the Executive Director, but no need to explicitly specify that
(See the notes).

It's not that the = LLC board DOES decide or that the ED decides on the RSCE position, but rather it is for the the LLC board to decide whether to delegate that decision.

What I = am drawing from all of this, by the way, is the importance of closing this document, because people really are losing context of the decisions that have been made.  The chairs will have = more to say on that shortly.

Eliot

<OpenPGP_0x87= B66B46D9D27A33.asc>

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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------XLkMaGfXg8oENOKBJX0qFVpd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:10:12 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------XLkMaGfXg8oENOKBJX0qFVpd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0Ng0tXD6dLWBjHE7mqhRWfvV"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Jay Daley , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns Message-ID: <37a4179f-b1ac-4cb8-d69d-f1b65d1c08f7@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: --------------0Ng0tXD6dLWBjHE7mqhRWfvV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Hi Mirja

On 03.01.22 16:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
Further, the IETF LLC is mention two times here: 1)= to form the selection committee, 2) to make a final decision on the RSCE. The board can delegate the task to =E2=80=9Ccreate=E2=80= =9D the search committee to anybody any time, however, the responsibility for these decisions stays with the board from my point of view. I don=E2=80=99t think they can actually delegate a =E2=80=9Cdecisio= n=E2=80=9D.

Mirja

P.S.: I reviewed the notes you linked below and if you read them at whole and particularly Jay=E2=80=99s comments (e= =2Eg. "the LLC board is the fina= l sign-off=E2=80=9D),=C2=A0I=C2=A0believe=C2=A0this also refl= ect my assumption that=C2=A0then board is=C2=A0responsible when we say IETF L= LC in the text.=C2=A0The sentence you cited is out of context is from= the beginning of=C2=A0the=C2=A0discussion and not the end.

While I am fully confident that Jay's statement was and probably remains true, the board can never-the-less decide to delegate later.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Nowhere does it say they cannot; and our text ac= tually reaffirms that (we explicitly call out the board elsewhere in the doc, but not there).=C2=A0 My point is simply that you should not m= ake the assumption that this text constrains the current board or future boards to not delegate; and you may wish to take that into account in terms of how you consider the current matter.=C2=A0 As a= practical matter, I doubt they would delegate this hiring decision for at least the foreseeable future, but that is me merely speculating.

Eliot


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10024) with ESMTP id D6BhIkfR4a10; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E0583A07B7; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n4QHY-0006vQ-LH; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 11:34:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 11:33:55 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Eliot Lear cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns Message-ID: <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:34:12 -0000 Eliot, Mirja, There is another piece of this story which is that the LLC Board has delegated almost complete authority to the Executive Director an action that the incorporation document explicitly allows. Jay pointed that out to me a long time ago when I raised the question of whether the Board had reviewed the text of a particular proposal/consultation before it was sent out. At least as I understand "decision", they can (and have) delegated (at least many of) those. That is actually reasonable and appropriate: If the ED needed to get Board review prior to making every decision and acting on it, the result would be complete paralysis. Given that those delegations of authority exist (and the Board does not proactively intervene), if we say "the LLC", it is up to Jay's discretion when and how much to consult the Board with the range of possibilities stretching from "hand the problem back over to them and step back" to "inform them in a period report what has been done". While presumably neither his intent in the comment Mirja quotes nor what I would expect would happen, even the latter is probably consistent with the Board having final signoff. Jason, Jay, or Counsel would need to comment on this, but it isn't even clear to me that we can mandate "the Board must be involved before the selection committee is finalized". We could give guidance to the ED (which I assume we could trust Jay to accept and follow) or we could request that the Board make such a policy, but we basically can't tell the LLC what to do or how to manage itself. So I would go a step further than Mirja: if our intent is to be sure the membership of the selection committee is a group process rather than selection by an individual, we'd best spell that out, at least as clear guidance. And, Eliot, I know you are anxious to be done with this. So am I and I assume everyone else here shares that desire. However, I am even more anxious to get things right and not leave loose ends lying around that could easily turn into surprises and messes to be cleaned up later. If we had a discussion and reached a conclusion before, I have no desire to reopen it. However, if things various of us consider important parts of that discussion didn't make it into the text, or if complications or related issues become apparent only after looking at the text, those topics should not be classified and suppressed as "reopening" or "relitigating" -- they are just new issues that build on the older (and settled) ones. john --On Monday, January 3, 2022 16:23 +0100 Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi Elliot, > > I'm not disagreeing, nor do I want to reopen this issue but > now that you state it this way it feels to me it needs a bit > of clarification. > > First I was assuming that when we say IETF LLC here, we > actually mean the Board as the IETF LCC Board is defined as > "multi-member "manager" of the IETF LLC" in RFC8711. > Decision have to be made by humans and not an abstract entity > and therefore the board would be responsible here. > > Further, the IETF LLC is mention two times here: 1) to form > the selection committee, 2) to make a final decision on the > RSCE. The board can delegate the task to "create" the > search committee to anybody any time, however, the > responsibility for these decisions stays with the board from > my point of view. I don't think they can actually delegate a > "decision". > > Mirja > > P.S.: I reviewed the notes you linked below and if you read > them at whole and particularly Jay's comments (e.g. "the LLC > board is the final sign-off"), I believe this also reflect > my assumption that then board is responsible when we say IETF > LLC in the text. The sentence you cited is out of context is > from the beginning of the discussion and not the end. At that > point the discussion was about the question if we need to > mention a search (or selection) committee at all in the > document or lave this entirely to the LLC. From nobody Mon Jan 3 09:24:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA293A095D; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 09:24:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id neLZ6GJc7Fda; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 09:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA7BE3A0962; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 09:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee733e700114c3388f1dd340c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e733:e700:114c:3388:f1dd:340c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1n4R4J-0003Pz-UW; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 18:24:24 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Message-Id: <4759EF04-586C-4288-A460-6F38A228A6F8@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_189387D3-53F2-47CB-ABE6-4BEF78BC9FD8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:24:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Jay Daley , Michael StJohns To: John C Klensin References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1641230671;d9b71b97; X-HE-SMSGID: 1n4R4J-0003Pz-UW Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 17:24:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_189387D3-53F2-47CB-ABE6-4BEF78BC9FD8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 3. Jan 2022, at 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > At least as I understand "decision", they can (and have) > delegated (at least many of) those. That is actually reasonable > and appropriate: If the ED needed to get Board review prior to > making every decision and acting on it, the result would be > complete paralysis. Yes, sorry I was not putting this clearly. When I said they can not = delegate a =E2=80=9Cdecision=E2=80=9D, I was putting the word decision = in quotes, because I don=E2=80=99t think the can delegate the = responsibility for the decision. Yes, they have to delegate decisions, = especially those related to more daily business, but that doesn=E2=80=99t = mean the board can get them self out of any consequences of those = decisions.=20 > Given that those delegations of authority > exist (and the Board does not proactively intervene), if we say > "the LLC", it is up to Jay's discretion when and how much to > consult the Board with the range of possibilities stretching > from "hand the problem back over to them and step back" to > "inform them in a period report what has been done=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s not how I would interpret that. It=E2=80=99s the board = that first has to delegate any authority to the ED and respectively they = can at any time reiterate that delegation and get involved if = needed/wanted. So I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s the ED=E2=80=99s = discretion when and how to involve the board. Mirja P.S.: We don=E2=80=99t want anything like RSOC back, especially not for = the oversight part of the responsibility, however, this is the text in = RFC6635 on RSOC regarding the relation to the IAB and especially hiring = a a reference: The RSOC will act with authority delegated from the IAB: in general, it will be the RSOC that will approve consensus policy and vision documents as developed by the RSE in collaboration with the community. While it is expected that the IAB will exercise due diligence in its supervision of the RSOC, the RSOC should be allowed the latitude to do its job without undue interference from the IAB. Therefore, it is expected that the IAB will accord RSOC reports and recommendations the benefit of the doubt. For all decisions that affect the RSE individually (e.g., hiring and firing), the RSOC prepares recommendations for the IAB, but the final decision is the responsibility of the IAB. --Apple-Mail=_189387D3-53F2-47CB-ABE6-4BEF78BC9FD8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 3. Jan 2022, at 17:33, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> = wrote:

At least as I understand = "decision", they can (and have)
delegated (at least many of) those. That is actually = reasonable
and = appropriate: If the ED needed to get Board review prior to
making every decision and acting = on it, the result would be
complete paralysis.

Yes, sorry I was not putting this clearly. When I = said they can not delegate a =E2=80=9Cdecision=E2=80=9D, I was putting = the word decision in quotes, because I don=E2=80=99t think the can = delegate the responsibility for the decision. Yes, they have to delegate = decisions, especially those related to more daily business, but that = doesn=E2=80=99t mean the board can get them self out of any consequences = of those decisions. 

 Given that those delegations of authority
exist (and the Board does not = proactively intervene), if we say
"the LLC", it is up to Jay's discretion when and how much = to
consult the = Board with the range of possibilities stretching
from "hand the problem back over = to them and step back" to
"inform them in a period report what has been = done=E2=80=9D.

That=E2=80=99s not how I would interpret that. = It=E2=80=99s the board that first has to delegate any authority to the = ED and respectively they can at any time reiterate that delegation and = get involved if needed/wanted. So I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s the = ED=E2=80=99s discretion when and how to involve the board.

Mirja

P.S.: We don=E2=80=99t = want anything like RSOC back, especially not for the oversight part of = the responsibility, however, this is the text in RFC6635 on RSOC = regarding the relation to the IAB and especially hiring a a = reference:

   The RSOC will act with =
authority delegated from the IAB: in general,
   it will be the RSOC that will approve consensus policy and vision
   documents as developed by the RSE in collaboration with the
   community.  While it is expected that the IAB will exercise due
   diligence in its supervision of the RSOC, the RSOC should be allowed
   the latitude to do its job without undue interference from the IAB.
   Therefore, it is expected that the IAB will accord RSOC reports and
   recommendations the benefit of the doubt.

   For all decisions that affect the RSE individually (e.g., hiring and
   firing), the RSOC prepares recommendations for the IAB, but the final
   decision is the responsibility of the IAB.


= --Apple-Mail=_189387D3-53F2-47CB-ABE6-4BEF78BC9FD8-- From nobody Mon Jan 3 10:04:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E6D3A064F for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:04:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6cMK9BwfigzA for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90D8A3A064B for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9455:5e97:5df3:fdf9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 440E21D2204; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 20:04:35 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641233075; bh=G/62wmqGS6p+ttlooGY4HlA5O3lweOZ/K/zsPkOWDSs=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=mLJFTfTkdfe3CAy6qAJ2Xq1Z5/s0cQjkjj1xOI0hFuw4hN7VW72BDZ9rPEGTnJzvA rRt7GY9/RVJ8JVWfxvnKZvWFoH3JwXF5zRv3In1zdwdfw+4lKG0w3Nsemj8gRs2Gwd pr4d0QqcbX/Nan/wBFzSYhKopq3Vil8phZwtVNG0= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FA50631B-9763-40C8-8C4A-58792BA9CEBE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 20:04:32 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Jay Daley , Michael StJohns Message-Id: References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-MailScanner-ID: 440E21D2204.AFFFB X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2022 18:04:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FA50631B-9763-40C8-8C4A-58792BA9CEBE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-3, at 18:33, John C Klensin wrote: > At least as I understand "decision", they can (and have) > delegated (at least many of) those. That is actually reasonable > and appropriate: If the ED needed to get Board review prior to > making every decision and acting on it, the result would be > complete paralysis. for context, please see = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_LLC_Delegated_Authorities_2020-0= 6-11.pdf (linked from = https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/policies-procedures/), which = has the details about board-to-ED delegations. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_FA50631B-9763-40C8-8C4A-58792BA9CEBE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHTOrAACgkQVLXDCb9w wVd6wxAAhQ0peuDtv2cErZfMBDNGpv1GI7SNksHE8L7PVGtTFRMfUnlBAlDC5RiN +YRTzCFkSMbHUjJMUN/yuP5/BrMytrTnLqc+fNovcCDmYDi6WjJaO2AjY/grZ0Jy fM7LYuYBYiuz4/1o19WLnphuVEvARAYnBk3/WB+3erejs+PSnr0RmJtwOrDvij0J 4Y/GnJsg9R2AhnAeCgyIixpr9swLMEFcWt6khGGySghQsEMJhBL0fs9vQdZKUYbu 75ymEknrjekUS//s49LgoJsay+NE2DyUzDfl/t4nN3GS0YAP0IgMTijReqGhe4oN TgqzvQ5/FdBn/lkNaNbeymaKA422fPFcsmL/653gydYhNI48xalCtv0F5VwIopVx VdNDVdQVfKJ3EzXy/yU6DX3ZqtwlMHsZX65htCngaFTebBc3CuUXXAq6I22PrJzm rEzhsvBCEjVPTuuXgTP33bmJ2vXdmRNYQIX8JaHjnR9w5rT9M4Ymff014hnyQFOa pkoynZcdpSnSv5fAnvhOfR5YNY5HcxU+VCgfgDCLEZqL0LLepOmoiikB6unUBQNT pKOgW3qK6mH8klYMVw0Az1RimfFxENMBMmuXi4NLIrTonCxa1TlBSJnJ0zlZRQSu LlojMwr2tEIrTrHGmQrFoEGGYWOctx/iwMgPNe06uZ09xgTsQcM= =0Dcx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FA50631B-9763-40C8-8C4A-58792BA9CEBE-- From nobody Mon Jan 3 16:20:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E973D3A12A0 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:20:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p4xFeBlmuDwI for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E94B3A129F for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id d3so19680605ilr.10 for ; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:20:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7ILDelc4huXvl1D+R7HAVuP7Ptpo2BrL1lYiSBvMC30=; b=rPeSYfZ4djIfsAEw4AYL3Rwd55XGfX9URKE3IosVO64uFai/ddOFkrtTUuWl+rZmCr u2e0Nii4dL/3gUd88AXmhvJfmmtP4aP1Olyw9uiyPFDiS71B+FrBTXELGFsRXh3F8rNx Cw65u0PuqET6BmKv1b7GQbcHMgzT75yRufRZS/CyhjFrnE/cxHwIJGRPIaN7DW2JuYEK tfxe8MiBhxlz8EIX/sNMO87oaH9dHl+KIu/EDmzmj4e7/GrLbQBSO7TmLgULkNQwTqnp JeluIxD2kt/hiAo4r0TyMMxI/Q2VKSZK/WUb7sWdLC/OUE+2ghWY/DTViexlYXSVHF3l upPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7ILDelc4huXvl1D+R7HAVuP7Ptpo2BrL1lYiSBvMC30=; b=E/sN+WQNA8z/mRzB9tA8Ws8E3/jWlrfIMJJ3BesBVvmMi9AjcoNpkdQDabdhIk2afk UCgmN/RPr73A7IOpkRY2xcLqEcGO4QsGHk4SE5YlvYlmHi9MfWj/X9jUzVkMZauvokZ9 s7eaNl/PlQcTUMBbO3KaB2csRQ8IbPq944d0rR6c2l5MlEEsa74mB61ypjluENHti2rj uyhgkP7plFcyDEcjyXv13cTyqUhyiGyENnLxnkb3lu+L7Hugywec+i9Y+v7IPuIZ07Ek QgdqF5yFpdVdn+gY3k5WhiET9j6OIUJ52Royq5iXD8IBcmWEasT8kZWRoS+fVxXfmefY 0Eog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531lCAdE0KBIvoVR7uZbucLz0SZ0nde8ZV1joEZIRt/Hu7zaAkBc +vttuqlOKpWkU+b7W/mReRcN1LkBfoFQraYeKhGGPqJ/3fAtkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzS6TL7eIl9V3o7Pmff/YMkmpyeMkYhzdnzaMB1uwCCQh3j5mRBy5ZKCn7FO28NSety//Irp4vedOCc9ZUloUs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1747:: with SMTP id y7mr19083975ill.10.1641255613389; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:20:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:19:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d26fa205d4b699f8" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 00:20:17 -0000 --000000000000d26fa205d4b699f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi folks, I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148) and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using Github, I recap them here. Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing list, including a meeting. I understand that people want to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying to change that, but do we really need to require consensus to have a meeting? https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only two valid reasons for a CONCERN were: * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the individual streams. * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viability of the Series. I see that to this we have added * Comments received during a community call for comment need to be addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3. Two points: (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive If we agree it is, we should say so. (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them. My proposal would be to state that it's exhaustive and to require the comments to either be about one of the two reasons or that the comment hasn't been responded to, but not that the response wasn't to the satisfaction of the RSAB. https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/145 Issue 146: The current text describes the following core RPC responsibilities: The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and accessibility of results), while taking into account issues raised by the community through the RSWG and by the stream approving bodies. I agree continuous improvement is good, but I tend to think the core responsibility is just to publish the documents at all. https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/146 Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? Do these records need to be public? https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 -Ekr --000000000000d26fa205d4b699f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,

I have reviewed this document and feel th= at it is generally
in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR
(<= a href=3D"https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148">ht= tps://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148)
and fil= ed four issues. As I know some people don't like using
Github, I rec= ap them here.


Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we w= ould need
WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailinglist, including a meeting. I understand that people want
to require con= sensus to use Github and I'm not trying
to change that, but do we re= ally need to require consensus
to have a meeting?
https://github.com= /intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144


Issue 145: I h= ad understood that we believed that the only
two valid reasons for a CON= CERN were:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0* The proposal represents a serious problem = for one or more of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 individual streams.

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serio= us
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 harm to the overall Series, including harm to th= e long-term
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 health and viability of the Series.
=
I see that to this we have added

=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Comments r= eceived during a community call for comment need to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3.

Two points:

= (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive<= br>If we agree it is, we should say so.

(2) Assuming we agree it'= ;s exhaustive, then the comments reason
allows non-conforming reasons to= be used as the basis of
a CONCERN by just saying that a community membe= r made them.

My proposal would be to state that it's exhaustive = and to require
the comments to either be about one of the two reasons or= that
the comment hasn't been responded to, but not that the respons= e
wasn't to the satisfaction of the RSAB.
https://github.com/int= archboard/program-rfced-future/issues/145


Issue 146: The cur= rent text describes the following core RPC
responsibilities:

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the=C2=A0 =C2=A0dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0accessibility of results), while taking into account issue= s raised
=C2=A0 =C2=A0by the community through the RSWG and by the strea= m approving
=C2=A0 =C2=A0bodies.

I agree continuous improvement i= s good, but I tend to think the
core responsibility is just to publish t= he documents at all.
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-futu= re/issues/146


Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certa= in records,
e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally<= br>happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders?
Do these re= cords need to be public?
https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-= future/issues/147


-Ekr



--000000000000d26fa205d4b699f8-- From nobody Mon Jan 3 16:39:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15ECF3A12ED for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=wrgz3cE0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=O/jt2TiR Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHBhIXQKhVy9 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BACAF3A12EB for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32813201DA0; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 19:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 03 Jan 2022 19:39:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=U GX2ogCGzk3YilSJaEcOYEH1eqKxPRvCIRBwlgJBtpA=; b=wrgz3cE0yg0A4eGwd b69sNp1FTBK7x70anSRfK3/s+WeQQNhYzuR/8GkeKOvpFI5mZuDhNVKccmoRwjeW EKWJmA57Gx6xD1i0GAPl2tGntyuL/A2I7cNFY1v0hm1gFSVvQ7KMwKj0jOlnY1oI MqhAxwiESuY9OKwVNMkETruVH/YjfQYjq3OWahvOhOqpBSNu+zAxzt/9Ok4/HGe/ Bp9s4dcZChhoNSJsN+S+mzdEAGZucVSSKfhFBnqhd57oGW7iRL548yTh3zkpjMfm 8PFI59w0ExJphpgjtuKWe1j5EusWYBT8RjMsdDARcT3nOUGdZQ6aVnxkpae3TIjp Blezw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=UGX2ogCGzk3YilSJaEcOYEH1eqKxPRvCIRBwlgJBt pA=; b=O/jt2TiR+SvYgg8xXxGNaVwMTLID4HoAtFuR5bomQEWaH9w+vYnk2KObe oQqbmZRk3NRKxZazAVxCbb5d+UYarrS3x0WMc2suxKsITPrH40cFtLqPtWKIhSht 0H+Gh089lBs6IebC6DwptOwj+P55tw071PHmeI0ATXuXmHP+mSgO13vcAaywJI4Y 8MiOhlx/k6MyCCRrPdC8CS6DxjYKLWrd0X1k6szsXBH8QndkmS5EFmK/qwZ5QoTf /JQ3RQ5A/4HeqxZ72F+gxOAyR1tUdlr0wwESKXfB30IvB1j/aTn92Z84hd9rgDAB cfHEjn98N19KWarIlyfiB1DRdiqiA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudefvddgvdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfvfhfhufgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeduleelffejkeehhe eigeejhfdvgfevkeelfefggfehkeelvdfgfeffheeiffeileenucffohhmrghinhepghhi thhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 19:39:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 17:39:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 00:39:22 -0000 On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally > in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR > (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 > ) > and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using > Github, I recap them here. > > > Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need > WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing > list, including a meeting. I understand that people want > to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying > to change that, but do we really need to require consensus > to have a meeting? > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 > I tend to think not. > Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only > two valid reasons for a CONCERN were: > >    * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the >       individual streams. > >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious >       harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term >       health and viability of the Series. > > I see that to this we have added > >    *  Comments received during a community call for comment need to be >       addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3. > > Two points: > > (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive > If we agree it is, we should say so. > > (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason > allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of > a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them. Heh, I had not seen that backdoor. One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration. > My proposal would be to state that it's exhaustive and to require > the comments to either be about one of the two reasons or that > the comment hasn't been responded to, but not that the response > wasn't to the satisfaction of the RSAB. > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/145 > > > > Issue 146: The current text describes the following core RPC > responsibilities: > >    The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement >    regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the >    dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and >    accessibility of results), while taking into account issues raised >    by the community through the RSWG and by the stream approving >    bodies. > > I agree continuous improvement is good, but I tend to think the > core responsibility is just to publish the documents at all. > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/146 > That's sensible. > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally > happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? > Do these records need to be public? > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 > It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be public. It might be acceptable that records are kept and available on request if needed (e.g., in case of an appeal). Thanks for the review. Peter From nobody Mon Jan 3 16:43:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607C33A12F9 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:43:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMoOkQtcZoGv for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 184ED3A12F6 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id j6so27106072ila.4 for ; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:43:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ql7v8/Kmuc72wbgORrWbvTMOOulkJTJiml7YfQi7wpg=; b=C8lAHzhCXb0fHQPoeXzDr5iQZRhenHHLpeCz+KDRlsD9PO4nhToWw/NYVHvfRHD5Ef 1UDiXB5Fg7nTMlO6a5/6tKj8oPRhWCToBvkE2I9edC6ccdpYITYpmGsWe0qG4aGZAoL9 JozDa3jsVD3LvoQs59XUdp1JKfQOAPZsZVBP/sFaLTaku5Fwy2aD07q01zcEoRBfuhu5 CCSIQlR2k45SLJsM7ENftDwsAxbJQMIbo8d/1Sos1FU1u6azHmwVa2lVnQs07jVpdv1C EBd/Axt2y1HTcqDS4Gvolx17TTx7skBggxQjEIrGtP6F0gh9I/pmK0s47GTz7cF2b2kR D4MA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ql7v8/Kmuc72wbgORrWbvTMOOulkJTJiml7YfQi7wpg=; b=AsV2NHE02/YCiaB70rekmXG4UYpHbYVIPWh45ze3ZVG5CvBUi4mh1e50Te1D18SLQ0 DGi4xqEPZipjM7OTZNUO1CSEMDKUjWqpAPetQzBW79a1LnZShvqWpnxw++jkXNelN+mM GxrA4HMYY9oj+1pcbq9Tij6HBfpVRdJ5uScQR6/2QhiBilA4jxnPWIl0V6GFDlgl4rgG 0eqx/YxAB43hhwnh0ZPV641lHMAf6nOv3mUQWSYhiHRuLO1AXaWVE7dRlttjZ+E4zdBO +dgL0LoJDb1NxZ2YtXJWILnVgv22NCQxstxJRBod4mmJeFAmxhyAjjUQA6X5qkBMbFDg 54yQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53353k6F39c56qlpIKoGRMxxRbys97a/sraC53Nf28qpvEyc/RrH PjnNw9fXnw17XmqxF2vPDivA91BWSmF0dG1jQAEtoTHXmEw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylda4kAJafUovhjDfirE/t9ErTPzsEHigGjzGxOP2jDaLOqKN3tx01BYdhRT8LIIzcK8mAgRrwBC4tkrcGEfY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1b05:: with SMTP id i5mr23277750ilv.60.1641257016785; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:43:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:43:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078956805d4b6ed9a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 00:43:43 -0000 --00000000000078956805d4b6ed9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally > > in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR > > (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 > > ) > > and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using > > Github, I recap them here. > > > > > > Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need > > WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing > > list, including a meeting. I understand that people want > > to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying > > to change that, but do we really need to require consensus > > to have a meeting? > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 > > > > I tend to think not. > > > Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only > > two valid reasons for a CONCERN were: > > > > * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the > > individual streams. > > > > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious > > harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term > > health and viability of the Series. > > > > I see that to this we have added > > > > * Comments received during a community call for comment need to be > > addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3. > > > > Two points: > > > > (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive > > If we agree it is, we should say so. > > > > (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason > > allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of > > a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them. > > Heh, I had not seen that backdoor. > > One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could > surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the > responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by > raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that > don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration. > Yes, that would work for me. > > > My proposal would be to state that it's exhaustive and to require > > the comments to either be about one of the two reasons or that > > the comment hasn't been responded to, but not that the response > > wasn't to the satisfaction of the RSAB. > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/145 > > > > > > > > Issue 146: The current text describes the following core RPC > > responsibilities: > > > > The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement > > regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the > > dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and > > accessibility of results), while taking into account issues raised > > by the community through the RSWG and by the stream approving > > bodies. > > > > I agree continuous improvement is good, but I tend to think the > > core responsibility is just to publish the documents at all. > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/146 > > > > That's sensible. > > > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, > > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally > > happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? > > Do these records need to be public? > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 > > > > It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be public. It > might be acceptable that records are kept and available on request if > needed (e.g., in case of an appeal). > I think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all? -Ekr > > Thanks for the review. > > Peter > --00000000000078956805d4b6ed9a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter = Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:
On = 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally
> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR
> (https://github.com/intarchboard/p= rogram-rfced-future/pull/148
> <https://github.com/intarchboar= d/program-rfced-future/pull/148>)
> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using
> Github, I recap them here.
>
>
> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need
> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing
> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want
> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying
> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus
> to have a meeting?
> https://github.com/intarchboard/= program-rfced-future/issues/144
> <https://github.com/intarchbo= ard/program-rfced-future/issues/144>

I tend to think not.

> Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only
> two valid reasons for a CONCERN were:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The proposal represents a serious problem for one= or more of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 individual streams.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The RSAB member believes that the proposal would = cause serious
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 harm to the overall Series, including harm = to the long-term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 health and viability of the Series.
>
> I see that to this we have added
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Comments received during a community call f= or comment need to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3= .
>
> Two points:
>
> (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaus= tive
> If we agree it is, we should say so.
>
> (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason > allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of
> a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them.

Heh, I had not seen that backdoor.

One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could
surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that
don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration.<= br>

Yes, that would work for me.
=
=C2=A0

> My proposal would be to state that it's exhaustive and to require<= br> > the comments to either be about one of the two reasons or that
> the comment hasn't been responded to, but not that the response > wasn't to the satisfaction of the RSAB.
> https://github.com/intarchboard/= program-rfced-future/issues/145
> <https://github.com/intarchbo= ard/program-rfced-future/issues/145>
>
>
> Issue 146: The current text describes the following core RPC
> responsibilities:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous im= provement
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding the implementation of RFC policies (inclu= ding the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dimensions of document quality, timeliness of produ= ction, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accessibility of results), while taking into accoun= t issues raised
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by the community through the RSWG and by the stream= approving
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bodies.
>
> I agree continuous improvement is good, but I tend to think the
> core responsibility is just to publish the documents at all.
> https://github.com/intarchboard/= program-rfced-future/issues/146
> <https://github.com/intarchbo= ard/program-rfced-future/issues/146>

That's sensible.

> Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records,
> e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally
> happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders?
> Do these records need to be public?
> https://github.com/intarchboard/= program-rfced-future/issues/147
> <https://github.com/intarchbo= ard/program-rfced-future/issues/147>

It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be public. It =
might be acceptable that records are kept and available on request if
needed (e.g., in case of an appeal).

I = think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all?

-Ekr
=C2=A0

Thanks for the review.

Peter
--00000000000078956805d4b6ed9a-- From nobody Mon Jan 3 17:26:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B633A1397 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 17:26:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DjxN3sRnM5yF for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34F0D3A1396 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id v16so30082762pjn.1 for ; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bFvQ4QBwwPIUoqgHJ8Sr/Bz9n3+zPFTXZCEFnNXlY1Q=; b=jJGXUIWbTA1F3Bk5WCVZ0xyfCuERHe2YiHtnC5hvwqVHkgZ6Yp31icaHAqxtoU4CwK U5f05aK0KLlHr6HLW/AlfnFJHP6fxjJ0hvgJteA2aqRl641bQK4jkNshs3PIBs89BMiE SnlyRJOZS2H34q+hkXhnS+A4NU6OEI2UTpXRe2fNGSI8d6QQ/zisfJEXclG+0R7L5YSq o5U/F4qc/R79wDF09qTwOpwc4x71OupSR9r8GtDZbHKedHloNKLzOZJHCg3F3o7yNGum 4pbhSC9a9j/MUinMWKVnOXHq9fOgDuMa3/Ola/imppOyLqGDNQs8/n9R9jHR76CfQr6N F2XA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bFvQ4QBwwPIUoqgHJ8Sr/Bz9n3+zPFTXZCEFnNXlY1Q=; b=FayIccEu/wiPoKC0d/gOTyUm5TMtEXwGEJTyS75lEi3wggIbVkUqyriJxarW1eEOV/ x1r+p2flW8A9h1ricAu8OSduPTc1bXKlnSikrlWz3ei918vzWVZYD5lMoldxxfStuH5f BBwslRqRxv8W4+9hNW2FWlgSDg/cGWCka4xdbnPXNYEkTkFJty8yMoY1m/Dryla+DewK tCJyRCVPVzedwyeFQQ1dZeX7lCBT5GVIn9Bxk4egeT6KfVjUn/mH5ktcFAy+rTmU8Aeb BnYuVjh7Yt3Hf9Thq0PRvl6Guj1wUviWJIfkRgtTul+tbOyL8aKK32pdtnccbDZta3Ev HDLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533VLFJWuXekY+WhUJvCv+Pwc8hP+xQNzCyZ05McLdd0Qyh4ImKT ABERFEgdI4Q2aLLkjN6dARR5IyaeMItRVQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCiD8iBbIy3gYQnfrF40woUTbk983DY9DmTMDnEewMpKRMzB8pCc/80+L3FFONYHkwZLagYA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:384e:: with SMTP id nl14mr58894628pjb.243.1641259567316; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 17:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h3sm31926320pjk.48.2022.01.03.17.26.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Jan 2022 17:26:06 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <06414ab1-c53f-e542-52ff-800b99c23ef1@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 14:26:02 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 147 [WGLC Review of the draft] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 01:26:14 -0000 On 04-Jan-22 13:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: On one point only: > > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: ... > > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, > > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally > > happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? > > Do these records need to be public? > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 > > > > > It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be public. It > might be acceptable that records are kept and available on request if > needed (e.g., in case of an appeal). > > > I think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all? I can't answer that. But I suspect that there might, rarely, be matters that would be considered private, especially for the Independent Stream if publishing a proprietary spec. So any policy for making the records public would need to allow privacy exceptions. However, I just glanced over the messages in my archive about AUTH48, and I can't see any case that seems private. Even in a couple of cases where advice was sought from the (former) RSAG, I don't see anything sensitive. One small point: if we add text stating that future records will be public, or available on request, we'd better state that this is not automatically retroactive for previous records. Brian From nobody Mon Jan 3 18:36:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B163F3A1492 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:36:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fL7EUWlRufK for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 304EC3A1493 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id s6so33569632ioj.0 for ; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 18:36:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bwHvmzp8my3D2MdKwFHEgbUD3ohPYCENe/ZMVGsgBu4=; b=WLB1hU1zOHC6ilNmkyeu4nlALCfbl83iYZOEJDWR+3c37Aet81ZhOgYo8mqvmG5YzT AQbdCsXUPJw48f9mkmizLUcf0FRis6beXR4Mwa3Z/Zsid1ZDYc0cN7IRrL2D6dUtUTwd UQmuwWnnz8uu8OGA95inQlAdr/z7+u3QLKw+Xcm7ylVPsau1p62/j7nnr2Sa5wVb/hEj Zm4qrVgUr56ZrT2/VvO2TSc+rAYzUXFN2HRFvyjD34RSAWcksrUp4btMN1SpZxuoo50A ujTcB0jnD0neQoO1elgdOsDdMuOe9gurkrXtDo2xLLQpz36y6UKQs5U3ScHFclgRkGqQ kR+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bwHvmzp8my3D2MdKwFHEgbUD3ohPYCENe/ZMVGsgBu4=; b=snsPgiBTkLy82BYoiHx6dWspA3VYoeOS3qcipWQrWUWGRlUBEl/e+cxj4tYpFafAB/ dL/Jl+JGnhSXvjffMO74eyZDNPwO0srywPsj4INKb0P+PW8NLSC+KjbeEiVQ04cZc6xp JQfcXAOIFDY76AcT1LKYo3T1ycJLk9H3LZjaUugMTURvO60LbIsbXHRy4I9Y2DFNOQGP cyfHlNcrAD3phlfQ2M+Y9DZ9ymQBbwO5K4eT5EFtjM5hLi4YAQ/+wwChsra3ClaFEGKS guDAELyagsGUDeD8jWiBon1Z6xbEj75fvGcTbqZaEwS87qAC8e4OxgMBv1kfUGEyI8KH FR5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531A2MJYWV+EZ2KkFrdVySeafdaa8EjWTlajMyRTu2qRZu+sZQBt tT9/953zgAPylT98hCoTnY8dYc/v2k4EdLUkXFPl/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3hgWmb5MEu40ksVA3pI+gZqaYrEVKTlgbHobSh3QjDSwIXjwE1M55EYe9rro26bD+pZ8ezBtEPUPS77x2Fow= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3409:: with SMTP id n9mr22094082ioz.148.1641263811035; Mon, 03 Jan 2022 18:36:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06414ab1-c53f-e542-52ff-800b99c23ef1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <06414ab1-c53f-e542-52ff-800b99c23ef1@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:36:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000709aec05d4b88285" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 147 [WGLC Review of the draft] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 02:36:57 -0000 --000000000000709aec05d4b88285 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 5:26 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 04-Jan-22 13:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On one point only: > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > > > On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > ... > > > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, > > > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally > > > happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? > > > Do these records need to be public? > > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 < > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147> > > > > > > > > It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be public. > It > > might be acceptable that records are kept and available on request if > > needed (e.g., in case of an appeal). > > > > > > I think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all? > > > I can't answer that. But I suspect that there might, rarely, be matters > that would be considered private, especially for the Independent Stream > if publishing a proprietary spec. So any policy for making the records > public would need to allow privacy exceptions. > Agreed. I don't actually have strong feelings about any of this and would be fine if we struck this text. I'm just trying to review it from the perspective of "does this say what we want" and "can it be executed"? > However, I just glanced over the messages in my archive about AUTH48, > and I can't see any case that seems private. Even in a couple of cases > where advice was sought from the (former) RSAG, I don't see anything > sensitive. > > One small point: if we add text stating that future records will be > public, or available on request, we'd better state that this is > not automatically retroactive for previous records. > Agreed. -Ekr > > Brian > --000000000000709aec05d4b88285 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 5:26 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 04-Jan-22 13:43, Eric Rescorla wrote:

On one point only:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im <mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep cert= ain records,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does= that formally
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > happen now, or is it just in people's e-m= ail folders?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Do these records need to be public?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https:/= /github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 <https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-f= uture/issues/147>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <htt= ps://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 <https://github.com/intarchboard/program-r= fced-future/issues/147>>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping= needs to be public. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might be acceptable that records are kept and avail= able on request if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0needed (e.g., in case of an appeal).
>
>
> I think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all?


I can't answer that. But I suspect that there might, rarely, be matters=
that would be considered private, especially for the Independent Stream
if publishing a proprietary spec. So any policy for making the records
public would need to allow privacy exceptions.

Agreed. I don't actually have strong feelings about any of this= and would
be fine if we struck this text. I'm just trying to= review it from the perspective
of "does this say what we wa= nt" and "can it be executed"?

=C2= =A0
However, I just glanced over the messages in my archive about AUTH48,
and I can't see any case that seems private. Even in a couple of cases<= br> where advice was sought from the (former) RSAG, I don't see anything sensitive.


One small point: if we add text stating that future records will be
public, or available on request, we'd better state that this is
not automatically retroactive for previous records.
Agreed.

-Ekr
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
--000000000000709aec05d4b88285-- From nobody Tue Jan 4 00:58:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFA33A1972 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 00:58:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3ytt-ju2KNJ for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 00:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 111BA3A1971 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 00:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::3] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:3]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 2048voX72477484 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:57:51 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641286672; bh=Cni/1NVydzJv1WIegNah+Gs+bj64TLPexY78bU2gwDo=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=lQvT3IccplEXIfCH2ltZOG7t3FECsHrIKONyHBLz2mgbn6rMx8CG0nzquRP+el59H iSHrrY+ACiShLWLHuswL8VhAvg53T7KBUtmMLp+TmG+GlaMVlbE+ylclHnUd8Tr2fD r8yHVVjXVcJ1M8uE7hc44tzegoiaRbDNbXWKbH3I= Message-ID: <3983646a-f1bc-d094-0319-a32dd61e1bda@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:57:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------cpTe7kIMgBWLHMD1j80iWvva" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 145 Re: WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 08:58:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------cpTe7kIMgBWLHMD1j80iWvva Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------G0vWNRnwjzjQRXKRdLzI0hjl"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Eric Rescorla , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <3983646a-f1bc-d094-0319-a32dd61e1bda@lear.ch> Subject: Issue 145 Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft References: In-Reply-To: --------------G0vWNRnwjzjQRXKRdLzI0hjl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4jhJCqFW1Y0leCb0XxpltrO4" --------------4jhJCqFW1Y0leCb0XxpltrO4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Up05yXJe7OqG0B7UwuebMz07" --------------Up05yXJe7OqG0B7UwuebMz07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRUtSDQoNCk9uIDA0LjAxLjIyIDAxOjQzLCBFcmljIFJlc2NvcmxhIHdyb3RlOg0KPg0K PiAgICAgT25lIHdheSB0byBsb29rIGF0IGl0IGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNvbW11bml0eSBjYWxs IGZvciBjb21tZW50IGNvdWxkDQo+ICAgICBzdXJmYWNlIGlzc3VlcyB0aGF0IG1lZXQgdGhl IGZpcnN0IHR3byBjcml0ZXJpYSwgYW5kIGlmIHNvIGl0J3MgdGhlDQo+ICAgICByZXNwb25z aWJpbGl0eSBvZiB0aGUgUlNBQiB0byBicmluZyB0aG9zZSBiYWNrIHRvIHRoZSByZXZpZXcN Cj4gICAgIHByb2Nlc3MgYnkNCj4gICAgIHJhaXNpbmcgQ09OQ0VSTiBwb3NpdGlvbnMuIFRo aXMgd2F5LCBhcmJpdHJhcnkgY29tbXVuaXR5IGNvbmNlcm5zDQo+ICAgICB0aGF0DQo+ICAg ICBkb24ndCBtZWV0IHRoZSBmaXJzdCB0d28gY3JpdGVyaWEgY2FuJ3QgZ2V0IHNwZWNpYWwg Y29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbi4NCj4NCj4NCj4gWWVzLCB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIHdvcmsgZm9yIG1lLg0K Pg0KU28gbG9uZyBhcyBpdCBpcyBjbGVhciB0aGF0IGZlZWRiYWNrIHJlY2VpdmVkIGFzIHBh cnQgb2YgYSAiYnJvYWRlciANCnJldmlldyIgbWF5IHNoaWZ0IGNvbnNlbnN1cywgU3RlcCA2 IGlzIHRoZSByZWxldmFudCBjbGF1c2UuIEl0IG1heSBiZSANCmhlbHBmdWwgdG8gaGlnaGxp Z2h0IHRoYXQgaW4gU2VjdGlvbiAzLjIuMy4NCg0KRWxpb3QNCg0K --------------Up05yXJe7OqG0B7UwuebMz07 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi EKR

On 04.01.22 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote= :
On= e way to look at it is that the community call for comment could surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the
responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by
raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that
don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration.

Yes, that would work for me.

So long as it is clear that feedback received as part of a "broader review" may shift consensus, Step 6 is the relevant clause. It may be helpful to highlight that in Section 3.2.3.

Eliot

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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u28sm24914661qke.12.2022.01.04.10.52.14 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 10:52:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Abp023vnE43v8m0RXECj2QEA" Message-ID: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:52:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 18:52:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------Abp023vnE43v8m0RXECj2QEA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/3/2022 7:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only > > two valid reasons for a CONCERN were: > > > >     * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more > of the > >        individual streams. > > > >     * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious > >        harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term > >        health and viability of the Series. > > > > I see that to this we have added > > > >     *  Comments received during a community call for comment > need to be > >        addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3. > > > > Two points: > > > > (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive > > If we agree it is, we should say so. > > > > (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason > > allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of > > a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them. > > Heh, I had not seen that backdoor. > > One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could > surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the > responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review > process by > raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns > that > don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration. > > > Yes, that would work for me. It wouldn't work for me. What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? I would hope not. EKR - you've been using various forms of "let the community decide" in your arguments over the last year.  This "ignore the community unless they raise specific narrow technical exceptions" argument seems inconsistent with your claimed approach. There are a lot of minor things I expect the RSWG will propose that won't raise an eyebrow in the broader community, but there are a few that may cause some substantial pushback.   If the RSAB goes ahead and approves something against community consensus, we're going to be right back here again. Leave the text as it is.  Trust the RSAB and the community to do the right thing. As for (1), no, these aren't exhaustive as they don't comprise all of the "harmful to the system" reasons. Later, Mike ps - Eliot - unfortunately, broader review might not cause RSWG participants that made the proposal to shift RSWG consensus, and not a lot of people will have the time to invest to attempt to do that shift.  Also, they will face pushback as being too late to the party to contribute.   We need the RSWG to be subject to the will of the community, not just of its current participants. --------------Abp023vnE43v8m0RXECj2QEA Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 1/3/2022 7:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only
> two valid reasons for a CONCERN were:
>
>     * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the
>        individual streams.
>
>     * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious
>        harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term
>        health and viability of the Series.
>
> I see that to this we have added
>
>     *  Comments received during a community call for comment need to be
>        addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3.
>
> Two points:
>
> (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive
> If we agree it is, we should say so.
>
> (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason
> allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of
> a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them.

Heh, I had not seen that backdoor.

One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could
surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the
responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by
raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that
don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration.

Yes, that would work for me.

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document?  

I would hope not.

EKR - you've been using various forms of "let the community decide" in your arguments over the last year.  This "ignore the community unless they raise specific narrow technical exceptions" argument seems inconsistent with your claimed approach.

There are a lot of minor things I expect the RSWG will propose that won't raise an eyebrow in the broader community, but there are a few that may cause some substantial pushback.   If the RSAB goes ahead and approves something against community consensus, we're going to be right back here again.

Leave the text as it is.  Trust the RSAB and the community to do the right thing.

As for (1), no, these aren't exhaustive as they don't comprise all of the "harmful to the system" reasons.

Later, Mike

ps - Eliot - unfortunately, broader review might not cause RSWG participants that made the proposal to shift RSWG consensus, and not a lot of people will have the time to invest to attempt to do that shift.  Also, they will face pushback as being too late to the party to contribute.   We need the RSWG to be subject to the will of the community, not just of its current participants.


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([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ls7sm138579pjb.11.2022.01.04.11.30.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 11:30:38 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 08:30:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 19:30:44 -0000 On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote: ... > What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a whole is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the community as a whole? I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down. 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mike,

Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point on which I suspect the group agrees.

On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote:

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RSAB still has to approv= e the document?=C2=A0=C2=A0

I would hope not.

Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help?

OLD:

   8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that c=
oncerns received during the
       community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ...

NEW:

   8. Once the RSWG chairs confir=
m that concerns received during the =20
      community call(s) for comment have been addressed and that <=
b>
      there is rough consensus of the community for the result=
,...

Or some such?=C2=A0 And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment based on revisions, just to be certain.

Eliot


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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u17sm31961296qki.2.2022.01.04.11.51.45 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 11:51:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------gCD1h0A6dAhlmJ4nvcdb0uee" Message-ID: <5453fd9a-e404-059a-d29d-6d8e4a88615c@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 14:51:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 19:51:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------gCD1h0A6dAhlmJ4nvcdb0uee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/4/2022 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > ... >> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is >> that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC >> series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the >> community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? > > I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the > RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a > whole is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the > community as a whole? > > I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down. > >    Brian > Simple example - 5 people in the RSWG saying yes, 10 people in the community who don't have time to consider the placement of every comma in a document saying no to the general idea of the document. As I said, leave it to the RSAB to figure it out. If the RSWG thinks they got the call wrong, they can refer it to the IAB and IESG per the appeals process. And I'm not sure what you mean by communities all the way down - I get the relationship to turtles all the way down, but see my email at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/n60GyjkcFDnoLYL7h0di1doFX_c/ which should explain why I believe the infinite regression argument is specious.  E.g. this specifically: > There's a hierarchy of folk in the community, and the Internet community > is large when measured by "affected by".   That said, the question is > NOT "What is the community?", but rather how much of it we can and > should reach out to during our processes.   The answer is: As broadly as > we can, but not assuming that we're going to get 100s of 1000s of responses. Later, Mike --------------gCD1h0A6dAhlmJ4nvcdb0uee Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 1/4/2022 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote:
...
What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?  

I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a whole is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the community as a whole?

I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down.

   Brian

Simple example - 5 people in the RSWG saying yes, 10 people in the community who don't have time to consider the placement of every comma in a document saying no to the general idea of the document.

As I said, leave it to the RSAB to figure it out. If the RSWG thinks they got the call wrong, they can refer it to the IAB and IESG per the appeals process.

And I'm not sure what you mean by communities all the way down - I get the relationship to turtles all the way down, but see my email at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/n60GyjkcFDnoLYL7h0di1doFX_c/ which should explain why I believe the infinite regression argument is specious.  E.g. this specifically:

There's a hierarchy of folk in the community, and the Internet community 
is large when measured by "affected by".   That said, the question is 
NOT "What is the community?", but rather how much of it we can and 
should reach out to during our processes.   The answer is: As broadly as 
we can, but not assuming that we're going to get 100s of 1000s of responses.

Later, Mike


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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id de13sm31902949qkb.81.2022.01.04.12.09.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:09:08 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------S4p692bPEwW6TyWi0Twrx0rP" Message-ID: <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 15:09:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:09:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------S4p692bPEwW6TyWi0Twrx0rP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1/4/2022 2:50 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point > on which I suspect the group agrees. > > On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >> It wouldn't work for me. >> >> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is >> that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC >> series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the >> community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?   >> The RSAB still has to approve the document? >> >> I would hope not. >> > Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > > OLD: > >> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the >> community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... > > NEW: > >> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the >> community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... > > Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment > based on revisions, just to be certain. > > Eliot > > Hi Eliot - My first thought was this was spot on.  More thought suggested otherwise.  The problem is that language suggests the RSWG chairs would be evaluating community consensus rather than just WG consensus and that's probably not a useful model.  Maybe instead: Leave 8 as it is.  Add "LACKS CONSENSUS" to the vote possibilities in 9. It's a more specific subset of CONCERN that generally suggests that the voter believes that community comment indicates fundamental flaws in the proposal.  I.e., this is not "the document reads poorly or has fixable bugs", but "the community thinks the overall idea lacks merit and changes to the document are unlikely to change that".  The document is still returned to the RSWG. And that's conditional on any changes EKR proposes to the other text. Mike --------------S4p692bPEwW6TyWi0Twrx0rP Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 1/4/2022 2:50 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Mike,

Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point on which I suspect the group agrees.

On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote:

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document?  

I would hope not.

Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help?

OLD:

   8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the
       community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ...

NEW:

   8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the  
      community call(s) for comment have been addressed and that 
      there is rough consensus of the community for the result,...

Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment based on revisions, just to be certain.

Eliot


Hi Eliot -

My first thought was this was spot on.  More thought suggested otherwise.  The problem is that language suggests the RSWG chairs would be evaluating community consensus rather than just WG consensus and that's probably not a useful model.  Maybe instead:

Leave 8 as it is.  Add "LACKS CONSENSUS" to the vote possibilities in 9. It's a more specific subset of CONCERN that generally suggests that the voter believes that community comment indicates fundamental flaws in the proposal.  I.e., this is not "the document reads poorly or has fixable bugs", but "the community thinks the overall idea lacks merit and changes to the document are unlikely to change that".  The document is still returned to the RSWG. 

And that's conditional on any changes EKR proposes to the other text.

Mike


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[99.31.208.116]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c2sm43430414wri.50.2022.01.04.12.20.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:20:53 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <31F77D23-E927-4401-B8FE-558AD4602575@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D786BAE2-2666-41D0-80DC-AA6F36FB54A3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:20:50 -0800 In-Reply-To: <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , rfced-future@iab.org To: Brian Carpenter References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:21:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D786BAE2-2666-41D0-80DC-AA6F36FB54A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Brian, > On Jan 4, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > ... >> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is = that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC = series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the = community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? >=20 > I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the = RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a = whole is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the = community as a whole? >=20 > I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down. Isn=E2=80=99t it for the same reason the IETF does an IETF Last Call = after the a working group last call? Bob --Apple-Mail=_D786BAE2-2666-41D0-80DC-AA6F36FB54A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmHUrCIACgkQrut0EXfn u6gw6AgApFf//fhROiALQTnoJxuXcN0d/Sssrla+w6QFfPGFEqmIkIbhVdIfH1lh Uo6WlxQYdnrgRnVVs4PW7b1YwZus98Pb3HYI9OTzZcNHo6g95hqx/RZ1kLVvnLKB g+BrTURVZZtk73asnaijMe6rcYBw0BQ1rS4aHP4ibOLRWhgIBSbbEkLr8p30z8pg rpf6kjxrOQuJp5StSMVtci5xt5ZuUoX8FzTXa+zqMTEmyaxPJ8DAGEkBdRBIlgwk GOTk0qcxQsmZ+TxQxveLcrQl6t79qHyB0pvRpt/GaPVWDZw/nGHHH+ofGb8UKg9F WXZh1blVBrhzsIzn2PC5GaRbsLDPAQ== =z4Bu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D786BAE2-2666-41D0-80DC-AA6F36FB54A3-- From nobody Tue Jan 4 12:29:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F9D3A085A for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:29:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.814 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.814 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nJZGrxlA6X3U for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1360F3A0831 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4JT42g3Pnhz6Gb4F; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:28:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1641328139; bh=b4mvo21g08sSppKplLF8dcN/GoQz8dzsqqNlGNu9R88=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=i7WPLxjQCJ1uizbP1Uo2D0byk5zBkZD8Cle/3sDoTr61zv3DJiMEIqDSvDr1PuGrU mMs8MapDPmiLdivM+qYTHykW5XtBB5gQPcZs/uvU0AwB9HMQuDvUTEyWL4h3smua4/ dszodEsNc9rG2ALLd/dgav9ugyIsdEFRbg0FhX3w= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JT42f6HTwz6Gb45; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:28:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 15:28:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:29:10 -0000 Huh? The community as a whole clearly has the right to review the work. Choosing not to participate in a working group does not give up ones right to object during last call or the equivalent. And when we are talking about procedural activities, the range of grounds for participants to object seems much larger. If the larger community is actually engaged enough to raise a clear objection during last call of an RFC Strategic document, then it seems that the RSAB needs to be able to pay attention to that. And the RSWG needs to pay attention. And if that causes a stall in changing a policy, so be it. Yours, Joel On 1/4/2022 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > ... >> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is >> that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC >> series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the >> community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? > > I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the > RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a > whole is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the > community as a whole? > > I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down. > >    Brian > From nobody Tue Jan 4 12:34:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104B43A07F3 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:34:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NVTiwHwz2lbP for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7036A3A07EC for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 9so12493271ill.9 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:33:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dkMwgn1VpHdnMvmBOFsFNMtlBbiqZ1/ogOeOpU6IXm4=; b=qhwYcUCzuMlCj72egkHFZSYawsmF7TfjHxT+VLJv5XnG+fxvXy1/aTbEa+SHoAynET 7QHMty6rOsiyevBsvt+XyFaot5lYlBx1rEdvjNWZDGCfAiHAc4T0hW32bPLjcUA1eufy Z+thHG2GZQJP/l6TtwGyBfxsTMb1gQnVqAmkTGSbHerN0nlChf5L9F1t2KJlCz38Vf4z GOXfEWXUJOyYkiU74nGhdmbV2gNVxf/7ml5m9Zm9XsaY2HUIwzBTQoBooaXwVy55R3f6 gppraVdd+NYg8E/KJ6GA5X9KS1EBDnWVAfZ/dNacDyAQZyt6GzQADuJor6AVA1uThC8p UdzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dkMwgn1VpHdnMvmBOFsFNMtlBbiqZ1/ogOeOpU6IXm4=; b=hHPqEcSQSmLzFHLm09JbEeIgioocfys/IgE2Y1SpBNAgGa0tDF4/GGeGLNmOI8e2E2 zzrhYoar/5CK6gZcXXk3mYa9NpIcv1VfoVmLNnZVvThDEKJWWnNjIUkgVTfkUBgkDo6r ffxttDIaXLw+U0oVNrf04qgzprubpxfepr4KCt9Wi9yTFZnduVJOFt29y/qnaTZ+zC6n iZaNjbp6f713Ba07xaa9KpvXPzDAyIeljrvUJ2rnk+n6U/0ACAR749KRrIHo2sR22FrQ TzdDtb2oAhIrIEKZ/kgMCca7GHZd2YNi41af1uYcu27Wr8SMBI4MIArNj51MslkZRHt6 9Gng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531fZ3E+fiS87RotTynfzJyZUuGGLWKceNgOKS8ZWENmCXEyoJVH 4pVo/OiQ4Z7Lwr1ogZ7CXf0QJhowK8Q6aCj/Q4FrzDeGAVo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzr15x8w3+CrQbjL61weicfPUQZTL0AXXR+Wa0j5VQxr8DCVAzZUl36AIbJxOmDd+KoVcH02Kg1dfDH97sBjgs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:14d1:: with SMTP id o17mr24058352ilk.276.1641328435742; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:33:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:33:19 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005f695505d4c78e5d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:34:02 -0000 --0000000000005f695505d4c78e5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 10:52 AM Michael StJohns wrote: > On 1/3/2022 7:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only >> > two valid reasons for a CONCERN were: >> > >> > * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the >> > individual streams. >> > >> > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious >> > harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term >> > health and viability of the Series. >> > >> > I see that to this we have added >> > >> > * Comments received during a community call for comment need to be >> > addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3. >> > >> > Two points: >> > >> > (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn't exhaustive >> > If we agree it is, we should say so. >> > >> > (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason >> > allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of >> > a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them. >> >> Heh, I had not seen that backdoor. >> >> One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could >> surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the >> responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by >> raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that >> don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration. >> > > Yes, that would work for me. > > It wouldn't work for me. > > What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that > if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series > proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community > overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? The RSAB still > has to approve the document? > No, because then there wouldn't be consensus on the document in the community. I'd be happy for one of the reasons to be that there wasn't consensus. The overall structure of the system is that the RSWG is chartered to make proposals and the RSAB has a limited oversight capability. I believed we had agreed that they were not empowered to object to RSWG documents for any reason whatsoever. The problem with the current text is that one person in the community can object and then the RSAB can bootstrap that into blocking the document. I would hope not. > > EKR - you've been using various forms of "let the community decide" in > your arguments over the last year. This "ignore the community unless they > raise specific narrow technical exceptions" argument seems inconsistent > with your claimed approach. > I don't believe that's what I'm saying at all. Leave the text as it is. Trust the RSAB and the community to do the right > thing. > > As for (1), no, these aren't exhaustive as they don't comprise all of the > "harmful to the system" reasons. > I believe we should then enumerate those reasons. -Ekr Later, Mike > > ps - Eliot - unfortunately, broader review might not cause RSWG > participants that made the proposal to shift RSWG consensus, and not a lot > of people will have the time to invest to attempt to do that shift. Also, > they will face pushback as being too late to the party to contribute. We > need the RSWG to be subject to the will of the community, not just of its > current participants. > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000005f695505d4c78e5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 10:52 AM Micha= el StJohns <msj@nthpermutation= .com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 1/3/2022 7:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Issue 145: I had understood that we believed that the only
> two valid reasons for a CONCERN were:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The proposal represents a serious problem= for one or more of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 individual streams.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The RSAB member believes that the proposa= l would cause serious
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 harm to the overall Series, includi= ng harm to the long-term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 health and viability of the Series.=
>
> I see that to this we have added
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Comments received during a communit= y call for comment need to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 addressed, as described under Secti= on 3.2.3.
>
> Two points:
>
> (1) I don't actually see clear text that the list isn'= t exhaustive
> If we agree it is, we should say so.
>
> (2) Assuming we agree it's exhaustive, then the comments reason
> allows non-conforming reasons to be used as the basis of
> a CONCERN by just saying that a community member made them.
Heh, I had not seen that backdoor.

One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could
surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the
responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by
raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that
don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration.

Yes, that would work for me.

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RSAB still has to approve the document?=C2= =A0=C2=A0

No,=C2=A0 because then there woul= dn't be consensus on the document in the community. I'd be happy fo= r one of the reasons to be that there wasn't consensus.
=
The overall structure of the system is that the RSWG is char= tered to make proposals and the RSAB has a limited oversight capability. I = believed we had agreed that they were not empowered to object to RSWG docum= ents for any reason whatsoever. The problem with the current text is that o= ne person in the community can object and then the RSAB can bootstrap that = into blocking the document.

I would hope not.

EKR - you've been using various forms of "let the community decide" in your arguments over the last year.=C2=A0 This "i= gnore the community unless they raise specific narrow technical exceptions"= ; argument seems inconsistent with your claimed approach.

I don't believe that's what I'm saying at all.


=20

Leave the text as it is.=C2=A0 Trust the RSAB and the community to d= o the right thing.

As for (1), no, these aren't exhaustive as they don't compri= se all of the "harmful to the system" reasons.

I believe we should then enumerate those reasons.
-Ekr



Later, Mike

ps - Eliot - unfortunately, broader review might not cause RSWG participants that made the proposal to shift RSWG consensus, and not a lot of people will have the time to invest to attempt to do that shift.=C2=A0 Also, they will face pushback as being too late to the party to contribute.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We need the RSWG to be subject t= o the will of the community, not just of its current participants.


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--0000000000005f695505d4c78e5d-- From nobody Tue Jan 4 12:35:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308C13A080E for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:35:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ydoOtcwJRuWH for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A029B3A0802 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id g5so29197826ilj.12 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:35:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=A7qp/A/2e5rSwd52GZsMGEjVTYixolJQRqBIlQNJrUc=; b=FoA3ivsCK8eXaejhd2nJwt/x48zyNMv1K8UjHGd8Zpnd51poIdA67feVyUis3zzJOt nHA7KvqCTXXnaxI/s/72GqwylpQXmsgoVyqQBIGTdSx5F8epsg316XqDXyufniE2Gh0w uRzvZr9JbNRSLocZrRihnErWj7DCwbLzFkZmyGjI3qy5DA35D9LDZ3eB/LK1TqIi4YPp L5lQkWymObB1qfBgSX1auJHNNWJkjDZaxaTowZ2noYENj1tLy+NPmr8THbYdsvVl3qbo mOb6aqQAMEo+0fDooUCjr1CnEp99m52SNN0nyJhpmWurJM1lM5bsXXAjD2cqCc2woaR9 ylXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A7qp/A/2e5rSwd52GZsMGEjVTYixolJQRqBIlQNJrUc=; b=ZatbQ+A0EwazdWTTTFCvkNVrvfHIV5gxGMjUjWxW5dZhz8VnZ0WNLISaTe90b/tmW5 0A9pi14JaBgAeuX5bUMj2G7tRXOK34GrGbkmZSQx24d9fc61Huv4/FQb6kSoHGpiEQlX +2p4y+CAbuBVYx5vzqjOPreld9YPne/nnJcbIFZVE3+B10oOUFMJiHc632xRmuCZwoL6 JKrrI5rQrP9cJCmoVYbe+6+YD4vZEZ15Con0mk5wXKbDq7udpxhsydk7vF1LWkQ8RUVI x0WemQJ+exrL117Etzm1eJaEEsZ1iwFDdjf2EM6Fd4agPlXmZVJEZh5b46oT22CfHGWJ VFnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dhkFDJCjZFOXX6JSJtOaNMoEPfNYlcqywJ+M6Axh0bPmZcxN1 IJncyCt8xrcW837v+OsIw9gIznmPfqkQckQyP+aWsTlzLxs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx/MUrlQUgF3q2UShXwmY+xxNx6jGTSZSU9RkGVFIQNOAQt7x6k2WCoC1yUTptkP7+dil5uBzlGndS3Srjr3i8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:670e:: with SMTP id b14mr23382739ilc.39.1641328541466; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:35:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> <5453fd9a-e404-059a-d29d-6d8e4a88615c@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <5453fd9a-e404-059a-d29d-6d8e4a88615c@nthpermutation.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:35:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac983005d4c794c1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:35:48 -0000 --000000000000ac983005d4c794c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:51 AM Michael StJohns wrote: > On 1/4/2022 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > ... > > What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that > if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series > proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community > overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? > > > I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the > RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a whole > is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the community as a > whole? > > I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down. > > Brian > > Simple example - 5 people in the RSWG saying yes, 10 people in the > community who don't have time to consider the placement of every comma in a > document saying no to the general idea of the document. > > As I said, leave it to the RSAB to figure it out. If the RSWG thinks they > got the call wrong, they can refer it to the IAB and IESG per the appeals > process. > The appeals process is actually quite limited. As I noted later in this issue, it's actually not clear that the RSAB objecting to a document for some impermissible reason (stipulating that such a thing exists) is in fact appealable. -Ekr And I'm not sure what you mean by communities all the way down - I get the > relationship to turtles all the way down, but see my email at > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/n60GyjkcFDnoLYL7h0di1doFX_c/ > which should explain why I believe the infinite regression argument is > specious. E.g. this specifically: > > There's a hierarchy of folk in the community, and the Internet community > is large when measured by "affected by". That said, the question is > NOT "What is the community?", but rather how much of it we can and > should reach out to during our processes. The answer is: As broadly as > we can, but not assuming that we're going to get 100s of 1000s of responses. > > > Later, Mike > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000ac983005d4c794c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:51 AM Micha= el StJohns <msj@nthpermutation= .com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 1/4/2022 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote:
...
What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?=C2=A0=C2=A0
I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How i= s the RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a whole is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the community as a whole?

I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down.

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian

Simple example - 5 people in the RSWG saying yes, 10 people in the community who don't have time to consider the placement of every comma in a document saying no to the general idea of the document.

As I said, leave it to the RSAB to figure it out. If the RSWG thinks they got the call wrong, they can refer it to the IAB and IESG per the appeals process.

The appeals = process is actually quite limited. As I noted later in this issue, it's= actually not clear that the RSAB objecting to a document for some impermis= sible reason (stipulating that such a thing exists) is in fact appealable.<= br>

-Ekr

And I'm not sure what you mean by communities all the way down - I get the relationship to turtles all the way down, but see my email at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rf= ced-future/n60GyjkcFDnoLYL7h0di1doFX_c/ which should explain why I believe the infinite regression argument is specious.=C2=A0 E.g. this specifically:

There's a hierarchy of folk in the community, and the Inte=
rnet community=20
is large when measured by "affected by".=C2=A0=C2=A0 That said, t=
he question is=20
NOT "What is the community?", but rather how much of it we can an=
d=20
should reach out to during our processes.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The answer is: As bro=
adly as=20
we can, but not assuming that we're going to get 100s of 1000s of respo=
nses.

Later, Mike


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--000000000000ac983005d4c794c1-- From nobody Tue Jan 4 12:36:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B033A0819 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:36:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qb-J6fD_lJLg for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8691A3A0812 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id j6so29254221ila.4 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:36:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yiUejhkeRYExrJBWVLNovx33cSkqbv8a3zSKd4SsQlY=; b=DXnDZM4hiyupcxANrd/Xr+5QkspgysPlDNRsropJ/Ot/PG+52BW4M81gk1cot9ocL2 DGUh7wanT87XQmuL88P7YpdmNn8cUaBUJNGE0scdQzUj7EBaNQFmMoJ56w3X/a8v+v1H 2Al7i5wTv/TmmIQCl66mZF4NMNDpa9nYWz0CId8keY4reyzLdRUMBz/ljUltpJEL2q20 +gH89GNSWylLbU4Y1wD9v7OZLv+BIsNl0n8Jh0BR/tVMn2Upk68t3//qBYLXA6bOmuHu XRuczK/cm5sTP+LZzlXO3oyf4MukskP2aKBO2/gZfVv7n3epwkl4zpTWu8rcexssbP1N 14Kw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yiUejhkeRYExrJBWVLNovx33cSkqbv8a3zSKd4SsQlY=; b=4tlRNLbw4aiJmiMAR4Xtw9o8Tuv4b11/CiiFwFHcvfqXEVA3okshiKpseXn9ppmQFn fVXagdAU/FHgFPkhbizY3ddMktyHnlBTx/W9Ek+z6uXuD/Pnx8zq+arRx+wFnVKvDDd4 0A9KBXt/1Czd2xmonzm32q/anj6pVRubJx4conbdc8cG1yMo94QZ+3+fNuI8qvdDPcoL hVvmrfVrniV273IQ0o+SKxtpaHNaURxl6A8v41Qos5+TFJi2HePBY6FqRHSJ/NT0Wvpg HGzeQhAG8IODQZ6PKpj8PI9t24KbXMxBiR6NcFQcyBQD2Uv95TPkCowJ8lRcEreVQEcD oq2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531W0+XwfMG4i5oFjE2NTllYnnLZ+gsjuSd+YkozMWroeFO7x2LO sbp2ltqVcLjTRU+ChZmuPQk4qb5XlS0pyBfO8KGYYQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwnR636ejiRrJG44V3MkZNRj8pV88ZC+dBI4rdTZx5E2B5kb5v4lhXo4nguDeaDa73j8Q5tYO49MCkTtr/TssM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1747:: with SMTP id y7mr21105322ill.10.1641328599066; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:36:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:36:03 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001b7f4605d4c798a3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:36:45 -0000 --0000000000001b7f4605d4c798a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point on > which I suspect the group agrees. > On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > > It wouldn't work for me. > > What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that > if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series > proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community > overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? The RSAB still > has to approve the document? > > I would hope not. > > Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > OLD: > > 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the > community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... > > NEW: > > 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the > community call(s) for comment have been addressed *and that ** there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... > > Or some such? And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment based > on revisions, just to be certain. > Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN reasons. -Ekr Eliot > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000001b7f4605d4c798a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot= Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi Mike,

Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point on which I suspect the group agrees.

On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote:

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's = a bad idea - well so what?=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RSAB still has to approve = the document?=C2=A0=C2=A0

I would hope not.

Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help?

OLD:

   8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received dur=
ing the
       community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ...

NEW:

   8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm =
that concerns received during the =20
      community call(s) for comment have been addressed and that 
      there is rough consensus of the community for the result,.=
..

Or some such?=C2=A0 And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment based on revisions, just to be certain.

Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being c= onsensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN
reasons.
=
-Ekr

Eliot


--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--0000000000001b7f4605d4c798a3-- From nobody Tue Jan 4 12:38:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1D83A0819 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:38:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2KUtJ-Pfz6_n for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F41B3A0812 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id i8so25180186pgt.13 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:38:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T47EYLc6kH7q7FoXv1FFx2wIqIwOInGiC9ACTyja6cw=; b=fVFYP7Xuz7Ng5tzQv7I1yS8DDQOzHxS2htWjLrxrC9yMxD+WJlNmXqARVOoKEBNmQB fZS4lHs1SxqLtZK4H1Oj4pezcOdd3Iu+ei98KcJfThefzsi30E6KCgokhCFlFpAwMZGJ DZ5KMUIlIWDTnQYHIT+TPewG4vlKRxjnop/NA+rkDxStm06VyM8Ycig+z3K6v+eOeChv 57pONyeErbmYcMmUauM0zG2WRmLXooe+oCxkZvsDSr0eMaHKI4S/bI+JUhOEk4xbPCk4 QC0vlkqxTRt+mNNn9wpmfU+NCdfXyRBF8ydJ4rPAFv4QvA1YCn23B5BRQGLheNE0zVZW HpfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=T47EYLc6kH7q7FoXv1FFx2wIqIwOInGiC9ACTyja6cw=; b=rtO6QFRXKpvwvgHJhJTor2OIZxGu2/2/UBiRBEM5V9NkRnMAdUiCeidQ42m+5acibS ZgP/xLWC9Ft0MYlORHuwpeq4u233zhovCbp9L1xR1r+mHXj2TNSzaVJ53+YEGGIObVFD ugWhHnx88wbjGfhb6g3SgPej2orSu67cIs7aVaVOVWO2/8K9vgP09BFnVGmAML1yZzVq vSlHSQyQbgaO2RERCATwS02kTsxwwOf3Nk+tnLiG7sRB374ubxJUIkvUfYzvE5BpGQe7 u2OJ3FzlFsafOBZAn9mF635Mvj+0Ih0nRAEM8iuCe2FXf1TamoCzQj7HO8OIAmfM+c60 TBOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5301DzztI2CUJpB0NplMZ8CVxl56g87tVfYTbzeUx9LeUuJCF8Tp GDYm6m3Qyp2jwyN6/wN5IBs+xL81LHMPig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzy3xoyDwl3tZb7pTtYIEGlY2we031P6evuzDLlx4IKFxlQyKwchK5C/3tW4ceZtvdP1HxLcA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:bf48:: with SMTP id i8mr30653087pgo.368.1641328694633; Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f7sm42580171pfe.71.2022.01.04.12.38.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 12:38:14 -0800 (PST) To: Bob Hinden Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> <31F77D23-E927-4401-B8FE-558AD4602575@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9bb6206e-ecf3-d309-612a-d1e724ff75ec@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 09:38:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31F77D23-E927-4401-B8FE-558AD4602575@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:38:22 -0000 On 05-Jan-22 09:20, Bob Hinden wrote: > Brian, >=20 >> On Jan 4, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 05-Jan-22 07:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >> ... >>> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is t= hat if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC serie= s proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community = overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? >> >> I'm confused. The RSWG is open to participation by anybody. How is the=20 RSAB going to conclude that the rough consensus of the community as a who= le is different from the rough consensus of a WG open to the community as=20 a whole? >> >> I see an infinite regression here. It's communities all the way down. >=20 > Isn=E2=80=99t it for the same reason the IETF does an IETF Last Call af= ter the a working group last call? Yes. But I don't think there is a real analogy here. We expect the expert= s and interested people for topic X to be in the X WG, and the IETF Last = Call is looking for issues affecting the rest of the protocol suite that = the X people have missed. Here, we are all "experts" in what we want from=20 the RFC Series and everyone who's actively interested is going to be on t= he RSWG list. I'm not saying we shouldn't do a Last Call and listen to the results. I'm=20 just saying that it will be addressed to *exactly* the same people who ar= e invited to be part of the RSWG, so I seriously doubt that new arguments=20 will arise. That said, Eliot's extra words "and that there is rough consensus of the = community for the result" seem right to me. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 4 12:45:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CC93A08A9 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:45:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gBzoSIlI_45B for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 070463A08A5 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.228] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 204Kj1B12485393 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jan 2022 21:45:02 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641329102; bh=lwKfFNPfIO3X8GbPIa71vTpdrKJA5wlUGIejnAr4yF4=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=F34ki/OHclfQ7V7lQpuJG7bWZdouHxJD1C1XLTHvwBi/qXg/ySMpBa4Ean8hd/Lgi U5Ecss/RNceZbrR2H1Losx0jbhZIjs/oCAf+iwbTxNSA2ldUQ2ktOPTtAZffiKlSOL zeXBUXTuptas1hEU6sBynFSc2FSE2vL2o6A4Psy0= Message-ID: <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 21:44:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------AzB0Lc5dt0xlwrVp1W2sQyzP" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:45:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------AzB0Lc5dt0xlwrVp1W2sQyzP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tYEwN1Fsxy7te6fil64sLOc8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> --------------tYEwN1Fsxy7te6fil64sLOc8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok, if I understand correctly, you and EKR are aligned with an additional bullet about lacking community consensus.=C2=A0 Unless people object, why don't we run with that?

Eliot

On 04.01.22 21:09, Michael StJohns wrote:
On 1/4/2022 2:50 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Mike,

Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point on which I suspect the group agrees.

On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns= wrote:

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?=C2=A0= =C2=A0 The RSAB still has to approve the document?=C2=A0=C2=A0

I would hope not.

Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help?

OLD:

   8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that=
 concerns received during the
       community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ...

NEW:

   8. Once the RSWG chairs co=
nfirm that concerns received during the =20
      community call(s) for comment have been addressed and that <=
b>
      there is rough consensus of the community for the result=
,...

Or some such?=C2=A0 And the RSAB could send out further calls = for comment based on revisions, just to be certain.

Eliot


Hi Eliot -

My first thought was this was spot on.=C2=A0 More thought sugges= ted otherwise.=C2=A0 The problem is that language suggests the RSWG chairs would be evaluating community consensus rather than just WG consensus and that's probably not a useful model.=C2=A0 Maybe instead:

Leave 8 as it is.=C2=A0 Add "LACKS CONSENSUS" to the vote possibilities in 9. It's a more specific subset of CONCERN that generally suggests that the voter believes that community comment indicates fundamental flaws in the proposal.=C2=A0 I.e., = this is not "the document reads poorly or has fixable bugs", but "the community thinks the overall idea lacks merit and changes to the document are unlikely to change that".=C2=A0 The document is stil= l returned to the RSWG.=C2=A0

And that's conditional on any changes EKR proposes to the other text.

Mike



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I think this also still leaves the question of whether it's exhaustive. -Ekr On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:45 PM Eliot Lear wrote: > Ok, if I understand correctly, you and EKR are aligned with an additional > bullet about lacking community consensus. Unless people object, why don't > we run with that? > > Eliot > On 04.01.22 21:09, Michael StJohns wrote: > > On 1/4/2022 2:50 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a point on > which I suspect the group agrees. > On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > > It wouldn't work for me. > > What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that > if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series > proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community > overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what? The RSAB still > has to approve the document? > > I would hope not. > > Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > OLD: > > 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the > community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... > > NEW: > > 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the > community call(s) for comment have been addressed *and that ** there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... > > Or some such? And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment based > on revisions, just to be certain. > > Eliot > > Hi Eliot - > > My first thought was this was spot on. More thought suggested otherwise. > The problem is that language suggests the RSWG chairs would be evaluating > community consensus rather than just WG consensus and that's probably not a > useful model. Maybe instead: > > Leave 8 as it is. Add "LACKS CONSENSUS" to the vote possibilities in 9. > It's a more specific subset of CONCERN that generally suggests that the > voter believes that community comment indicates fundamental flaws in the > proposal. I.e., this is not "the document reads poorly or has fixable > bugs", but "the community thinks the overall idea lacks merit and changes > to the document are unlikely to change that". The document is still > returned to the RSWG. > > And that's conditional on any changes EKR proposes to the other text. > > Mike > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000021d6ca05d4c82e6d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, it's not an *additional* bullet but rather = a replacement bullet, I think.

I think this also s= till leaves the question of whether it's exhaustive.

-Ekr


On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:45 PM Eliot Lear = <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Ok, if I understand correctly, you and EKR are aligned with an additional bullet about lacking community consensus.=C2=A0 Unless people object, why don't we run with that?

Eliot

On 04.01.22 21:09, Michael StJohns wrote:
=20
On 1/4/2022 2:50 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
=20

Hi Mike,

Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarif= y a point on which I suspect the group agrees.

On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote:

It wouldn't work for me.

What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well so what?=C2= =A0=C2=A0 The RSAB still has to approve the document?=C2=A0=C2=A0

I would hope not.

Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help?

OLD:

   8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received d=
uring the
       community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ...

NEW:

   8. Once the RSWG chairs conf=
irm that concerns received during the =20
      community call(s) for comment have been addressed and that 
      there is rough consensus of the community for the result,.=
..

Or some such?=C2=A0 And the RSAB could send out further calls fo= r comment based on revisions, just to be certain.

Eliot


Hi Eliot -

My first thought was this was spot on.=C2=A0 More thought suggeste= d otherwise.=C2=A0 The problem is that language suggests the RSWG chairs would be evaluating community consensus rather than just WG consensus and that's probably not a useful model.=C2=A0 Mayb= e instead:

Leave 8 as it is.=C2=A0 Add "LACKS CONSENSUS" to the vot= e possibilities in 9. It's a more specific subset of CONCERN that generally suggests that the voter believes that community comment indicates fundamental flaws in the proposal.=C2=A0 I.e., th= is is not "the document reads poorly or has fixable bugs", b= ut "the community thinks the overall idea lacks merit and changes to the document are unlikely to change that".=C2=A0 The document is s= till returned to the RSWG.=C2=A0

And that's conditional on any changes EKR proposes to the othe= r text.

Mike



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--00000000000021d6ca05d4c82e6d-- From nobody Tue Jan 4 13:33:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67ACE3A0B4F for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:33:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=Bb6hBD1P; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=R4CV7TzA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2MOYRlqD_mP for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E16853A0B47 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40BC3200645; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 16:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 04 Jan 2022 16:33:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=J w5gPUEmYmVFGNucWX7c8WEehPw7KJWWEHwki6Bc8R0=; b=Bb6hBD1PBfVhndBj+ jc3YPRgFamAtzm4eg0FF3ogaDZdoLk5bFAMy6UDjr57YLOMEhLpKXnqroJnn/OKN uzFSOwRB4xb5i2EoUczWonfnQ0wdaHs4dRGeuavxYI4wAHQW+DZAXJXJT4Qball/ vck0NWfMIa3ecgUpi9UP5PUJyS4hhucHpqnVHm/93q52jX5s4fiL6GB0vQCUD/Ug dvi5ucGs8tAs4hOU0Z7fauM60+m2t1nhWp82BYXPg18pZ40VncnmHIiq4dMOiPAH qVaQ2dJOX3cswR6hKlOCD8cD6VaY2pM2iozN6RgUQJ6QK3dRZOpVnRUoYFOX1WqL 8N/8Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Jw5gPUEmYmVFGNucWX7c8WEehPw7KJWWEHwki6Bc8 R0=; b=R4CV7TzAc2OnBEIe/jbsY4R/38bCKggHBqpsdp/wim8/uaLwXr9MqWMRy P9D9UktGkhHhcnNr29jL0WnfvJnGctNTG7dGlfRTO529798gA7K5PswHS8UQdoKf xVUyckvSJ6WDJN+eER/n+Xf05a/IDugBTWTyNVftuYJKvoMKFFShHIFdT15Q84wH Ac7l2Jgb6F11vu/EQ0jmEQpSqCnrr7kL041JQJgzC5Hn3MzIGmdck+mGob5occ4t u1KQHyV/KJYW02F6PJvhDvqeHXaRos6C+hiWP71+6tmhwaeAPHZUO8LnlFUUfijg 8WWo7qg7PmyVm7E4sYU3T4PLcO8aQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudeffedgudehtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhgeetgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeu heefleekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 14:33:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 21:33:13 -0000 On 1/4/22 2:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Well, it's not an *additional* bullet but rather a replacement bullet, I > think. That sounds right. > I think this also still leaves the question of whether it's exhaustive. IIRC, in our original discussion this was intended to be exhaustive. Personally (no editor hat on) I've only ever been ~90% comfortable with that, but I can certainly live with it. Peter From nobody Tue Jan 4 13:58:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5215C3A1FAA for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:58:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uFYavbPJtX6e for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CD683A1FC2 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JT61k1Pv4zDCcR; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:58:18 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:58:17 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C8A6AC2-2CB4-45CE-B796-6D95810F5E61@tzi.org> References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 21:58:25 -0000 The current discussion gets the power relationships wrong. The underlying fiction is that there will be no late process surprises = because the RSAB can participate in the RSWG. If we bind the RSAB=E2=80=99s hands so it no longer can provide actual = supervision later, why would the RSAB members' considerations be = listened to in the WG process? Later in the process, the RSAB needs to shut up as long as the new = document is not entirely killing the stream/RFC series. So, essentially, the RSWG chairs call the shots; the RSAB members are = essentially powerless. (Add a boiling frog to the picture if that = doesn=E2=80=99t concern you.) No, we do need working checks and balances. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Jan 4 22:55:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184BA3A0C70 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:55:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cAOEEJrs3VBD for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFD7D3A0C8A for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 2056tSKM2504917 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Jan 2022 07:55:29 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641365730; bh=5VRmEgBoLORCYRlgj1cMjXTQeyq34z/HROFGQvYchRs=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jKq63TD8omdPTJdZapJ3fMl5Th6tu/x2boabtNZah+TwRtzsvjy1lKsAC+QA3WrmK 6gO53m0vaTQHindWmM7eq/60dUPvZTiSID/lVC+pWc0ChHmfCesKAEprEEInp+EMOZ xg/6DIogrIgFxL+RLsznu+C2B/PLOmx+6Ipscukg= Message-ID: <48430d65-3f1f-7b58-dd49-7fdca48dec0b@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 07:55:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Carsten Bormann , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> <2C8A6AC2-2CB4-45CE-B796-6D95810F5E61@tzi.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <2C8A6AC2-2CB4-45CE-B796-6D95810F5E61@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------tcT5jstYk8yuCecQI1QlndgU" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 06:55:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------tcT5jstYk8yuCecQI1QlndgU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------fWfd3cuzHRBrdQBgeNnrLkxu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Carsten Bormann , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <48430d65-3f1f-7b58-dd49-7fdca48dec0b@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <03f489e1-1070-bbeb-c6fa-1b1dd1bb60b9@gmail.com> <2C8A6AC2-2CB4-45CE-B796-6D95810F5E61@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <2C8A6AC2-2CB4-45CE-B796-6D95810F5E61@tzi.org> --------------fWfd3cuzHRBrdQBgeNnrLkxu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------qr8KTz8QSYZbe66iruV2fPV8" --------------qr8KTz8QSYZbe66iruV2fPV8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9703F3A0D38 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2022 23:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 2057P0bm2505218 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Jan 2022 08:25:01 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641367502; bh=i9wZbaRQ40IheubrwAhh4rwludcBf+WW7KDYZuWtzaU=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=JgiOfXtcOlOG3nY04TU/a02ZcPR7Bsg1BggzESjWkRkYj6Mmug66qt939I4k18SWo xoCCOKaWhbngAFaDpDOOR3IOnpCO65S48Dg5jD5jQ366r2PFMoL8OKBruigRTD7Xhy PZzGVTFsXX2IPv5D3G5/rCLwpqJCRNSe1beU0r2I= Message-ID: <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 08:24:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------6FTE1BGugeBU961zvGI1SKqI" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 07:25:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------6FTE1BGugeBU961zvGI1SKqI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tTKgNWc0oEWDGhlZbnhd1B43"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns Message-ID: <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: --------------tTKgNWc0oEWDGhlZbnhd1B43 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------XQSrPpy0PMwkQRILNm2i7JgH" --------------XQSrPpy0PMwkQRILNm2i7JgH Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Hi Peter & EKR

On 04.01.22 22:33, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 1/4/22 2:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
Well, it's not an *additional* bullet but= rather a replacement bullet, I think.

That sounds right.

Yes, that's right.=C2=A0 I stand corrected.


I think this also still leaves the question of whether it's exhaustive.
Indeed.

IIRC, in our original discussion this was intended to be exhaustive. Personally (no editor hat on) I've only ever been ~90% comfortable with that, but I can certainly live with it.

I don't think we intended it to be exhaustive, but I will admit that I didn't get a strong sense one way or another from the group.=C2=A0 So let's discuss.

Allow me to attempt to frame this a bit with two questions:

  • When can the RSAB trigger a broader community review?
  • What is the harm and redress if the RSAB triggers an "inappropriate" broader review?

Imagine a proposal to change the archival format (for whatever reason=E2=80=93 let's assume there's some good reason to do so).=C2= =A0 This would NOT offend the principles in Section 7, but might be viewed as a sufficiently large change that perhaps a broader review would be considered appropriate.=C2=A0 I could envision two scenarios:

  1. The RSWG asks the RSAB and the RSCE for help with a broader review.=C2=A0 One could envision such a situation where t= he RSWG participants believe they are either at their limits or beyond their expertise and really want to hear from others.=C2=A0= This is not controversial, and I would imagine it would just happen without much if any change to the existing text.
  2. The RSAB thinks the proposal is at or beyond the limits of the RSWG participants or that the proposal might be harmful to the long term health of the series or have impact that they do not yet see (say with accessibility), and wants that broader review, without a request from the RSWG.

I think it's the 2nd scenario we need to discuss, and you might want to delve into it a bit.

And let's turn this around: what bad things happen if the RSAB triggers a broader review for something that is trivial?=C2=A0 Perh= aps the answer is =E2=80=9Cnot much=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 What would be the r= edress?=C2=A0 I see two answers to that:

  • Appeal on process failure.
  • Complaint to the streams and NOMCOM (probably the IAB, as a practical matter) of unwise/inappropriate use of authority.

I mention this because this group can afford to allow for some judgment on the part of the RSAB if we are comfortable with the risks of inappropriate use of the authority and the redress.=C2=A0 Otherwise, we should be more restrictive.

Comments?

Eliot

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Message-Id: <22544d5b-08d1-49eb-b82d-36acd468d9d0@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 21:17:43 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 10:18:13 -0000 On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, at 18:24, Eliot Lear wrote: > Allow me to attempt to frame this a bit with two questions: > > * When can the RSAB trigger a broader community review? > * What is the harm and redress if the RSAB triggers an "inappropriate" > broader review? Maybe don't worry about nailing this down. Any RSWG participant can attempt to call on others to provide input. That's all that would need to be. That's not a formal "community review" as defined in process, but it's perfectly fine to ask for input. Almost by any means or at any time. What the input is will determine its effect. If this input arrives during RSAB review, it might cause RSAB members to notice something of CONCERN. Otherwise, it's more input to discussions. That is, > If the RSAB receives input during its evaluation that indicates a potential problem with a proposal, an RSAB member can ballot a CONCERN position. The CONCERN position can cite the input that was provided and request that the RSWG consider what, if anything, to do to handle this problem. As far as I can see, that's not a criterion for a CONCERN, it's a path to exercising one of the existing criteria. From nobody Wed Jan 5 04:27:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226893A0CCA for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:27:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I8BdRqTFEFsp for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0DE03A0CC6 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:27:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=MG9qlVq5iPZHksxaGedtDlJH+YsyO41oSheCtHE0xMg=; b=NrTIzpb2+dD+f/uPq3WYj7AcqV JjGSpkpIZlmL7p8SQAGHc/IseSyqhD1pGMkxHuoWzf4kNtrRMBwopMOGbQxKyVuoVazBXFwGGwZ1V 5vNPnPuZt2EBE5nwhPR/P8lHoii0O4/PYOy3axx9x+DQTubVr6hM6Hxk8yUyMiQ/+nVpau3ufIApb 8iuRdRhJLNxBCCQ0nBZKs+vwbjXCCAYmofqT14aSUB4AVCUtm0SZSt+MXsjpDUcYNBAhk7ccAkYK+ eVyDhBPKnLwEuK1os/8zjoMDOquMFH+jbvgNceUnW704Vhk8oL/x0NSljmbnm9AikQrEFeswH3SdH Ru0g/xBw==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=45055 helo=[192.168.0.67]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1n55Nn-0007lV-9E; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 12:27:15 +0000 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_58A94894-AF45-4573-BA0B-3990DBF0D584" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:27:04 +0000 In-Reply-To: <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org To: Eliot Lear References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 12:27:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_58A94894-AF45-4573-BA0B-3990DBF0D584 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I=E2=80=99m perhaps confused, but doesn=E2=80=99t the current draft = require the RSAB to "actively seek a wide range of input=E2=80=9D from = the community as part of the community call for comment?=20 If we require the RSAB to seek such review, and I think we must, then = there has to be a way for the RSAB to send a draft back to the RSWG for = further review to think about those comments. I don=E2=80=99t believe we = can remove the bullet point ("Comments received during a community call = for comment need to be addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3.=E2=80=9D= ) that permits that.=20 (At this stage, it=E2=80=99s very hard to follow what specific text = changes are being proposed =E2=80=93 can the chairs summarise?) Colin > On 5 Jan 2022, at 07:24, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi Peter & EKR >=20 > On 04.01.22 22:33, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/4/22 2:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:=20 >>> Well, it's not an *additional* bullet but rather a replacement = bullet, I think.=20 >>=20 >> That sounds right.=20 > Yes, that's right. I stand corrected. >=20 >>=20 >>> I think this also still leaves the question of whether it's = exhaustive.=20 > Indeed. >>=20 >> IIRC, in our original discussion this was intended to be exhaustive. = Personally (no editor hat on) I've only ever been ~90% comfortable with = that, but I can certainly live with it.=20 >>=20 > I don't think we intended it to be exhaustive, but I will admit that I = didn't get a strong sense one way or another from the group. So let's = discuss. >=20 > Allow me to attempt to frame this a bit with two questions: >=20 > When can the RSAB trigger a broader community review? > What is the harm and redress if the RSAB triggers an "inappropriate" = broader review? > Imagine a proposal to change the archival format (for whatever = reason=E2=80=93 let's assume there's some good reason to do so). This = would NOT offend the principles in Section 7, but might be viewed as a = sufficiently large change that perhaps a broader review would be = considered appropriate. I could envision two scenarios: >=20 > The RSWG asks the RSAB and the RSCE for help with a broader review. = One could envision such a situation where the RSWG participants believe = they are either at their limits or beyond their expertise and really = want to hear from others. This is not controversial, and I would = imagine it would just happen without much if any change to the existing = text. > The RSAB thinks the proposal is at or beyond the limits of the RSWG = participants or that the proposal might be harmful to the long term = health of the series or have impact that they do not yet see (say with = accessibility), and wants that broader review, without a request from = the RSWG. > I think it's the 2nd scenario we need to discuss, and you might want = to delve into it a bit. >=20 > And let's turn this around: what bad things happen if the RSAB = triggers a broader review for something that is trivial? Perhaps the = answer is =E2=80=9Cnot much=E2=80=9D. What would be the redress? I see = two answers to that: >=20 > Appeal on process failure. > Complaint to the streams and NOMCOM (probably the IAB, as a practical = matter) of unwise/inappropriate use of authority. > I mention this because this group can afford to allow for some = judgment on the part of the RSAB if we are comfortable with the risks of = inappropriate use of the authority and the redress. Otherwise, we = should be more restrictive. >=20 > Comments? >=20 > Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_58A94894-AF45-4573-BA0B-3990DBF0D584 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

I=E2=80= =99m perhaps confused, but doesn=E2=80=99t the current draft require the = RSAB to "actively seek a wide range of input=E2=80=9D from the community = as part of the community call for comment? 

If we require the RSAB to seek such = review, and I think we must, then there has to be a way for the RSAB to = send a draft back to the RSWG for further review to think about those = comments. I don=E2=80=99t believe we can remove the bullet point = ("Comments received during a community call for comment need to be = addressed, as described under Section 3.2.3.=E2=80=9D) that permits = that. 

(At = this stage, it=E2=80=99s very hard to follow what specific text changes = are being proposed =E2=80=93 can the chairs summarise?)

Colin



On 5 Jan 2022, at 07:24, Eliot = Lear <lear@lear.ch> = wrote:

=20 =20

Hi Peter & EKR

On 04.01.22 22:33, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On= 1/4/22 2:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
Well, it's not an = *additional* bullet but rather a replacement bullet, I think.

That sounds right.

Yes, that's right.  I stand = corrected.


I think this also still = leaves the question of whether it's exhaustive.
Indeed.

IIRC, in our original discussion this was intended to be exhaustive. Personally (no editor hat on) I've only ever been ~90% comfortable with that, but I can certainly live with it.

I don't think we intended it to be = exhaustive, but I will admit that I didn't get a strong sense one way or another from the group.  So let's discuss.

Allow me to attempt to frame this a bit with two = questions:

  • When can the RSAB trigger a broader community = review?
  • What is the harm and redress if the RSAB triggers = an "inappropriate" broader review?

Imagine a proposal to change the archival format = (for whatever reason=E2=80=93 let's assume there's some good reason to do = so).  This would NOT offend the principles in Section 7, but might be viewed as a sufficiently large change that perhaps a broader review would be considered appropriate.  I could envision two = scenarios:

  1. The RSWG asks the RSAB and the = RSCE for help with a broader review.  One could envision such a situation where = the RSWG participants believe they are either at their limits or beyond their expertise and really want to hear from = others.  This is not controversial, and I would imagine it would just happen without much if any change to the existing text.
  2. The RSAB thinks the proposal is at or beyond the = limits of the RSWG participants or that the proposal might be harmful to the long term health of the series or have impact that they do not yet see (say with accessibility), and wants that broader review, without a request from the RSWG.

I think it's the 2nd scenario we need to discuss, = and you might want to delve into it a bit.

And let's turn this = around: what bad things happen if the RSAB triggers a broader review for something that is trivial?  = Perhaps the answer is =E2=80=9Cnot much=E2=80=9D.  What would be the = redress?  I see two answers to that:

  • Appeal on process failure.
  • Complaint to the streams and NOMCOM (probably the = IAB, as a practical matter) of unwise/inappropriate use of authority.

I mention this because this group can afford to = allow for some judgment on the part of the RSAB if we are comfortable with the risks of inappropriate use of the authority and the redress.  Otherwise, we should be more restrictive.

Comments?

Eliot

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-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_58A94894-AF45-4573-BA0B-3990DBF0D584-- From nobody Wed Jan 5 04:39:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5CF3A005E for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:39:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MEuhZ5YSZjY0 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CF313A0045 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 205CdC2Y003615 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Jan 2022 13:39:12 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641386352; bh=bkqdf2sOCnFwjUzXrHwHBB0vykd8R5CGjPEKkXl9rnk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=C0cGcpPsm9l4ABPlZoN2QdbE+LjHlKUwJhLVC0GyMOKWaEujTQ+kwZi4Q86iJvgr8 CTJSfJknXZwDsXXGkha5VZ98oDl+X8ZQDTWXdNt3iF4/9Q0CSfgo71/5cyc6nCV8/e Hri6KMj3Zh5UVtcG1n6FlvzHhykm02ef5lxkbuOs= Message-ID: <895d25fa-2859-f334-d5f1-782134fc9d5e@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 13:39:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------duEw0aciWzkfRl0NCd7qIZg7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 12:39:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------duEw0aciWzkfRl0NCd7qIZg7 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------NV5xIlhsAnGD4IgqdnUD1u4n"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Colin Perkins Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <895d25fa-2859-f334-d5f1-782134fc9d5e@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> 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with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1n55bH-0002me-TV; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 12:41:12 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <895d25fa-2859-f334-d5f1-782134fc9d5e@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:41:06 +0000 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> <895d25fa-2859-f334-d5f1-782134fc9d5e@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 12:41:21 -0000 > On 5 Jan 2022, at 12:39, Eliot Lear wrote: > On 05.01.22 13:27, Colin Perkins wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> (At this stage, it=E2=80=99s very hard to follow what specific text = changes are being proposed =E2=80=93 can the chairs summarise?) >=20 > What is proposed is that the 3rd bullet currently in the draft be = replaced with a statement that a valid reason for a CONCERN is a lack of = consensus within the wider community. This is in keeping with what is = in =C2=A73.2.3. Can you give the specific text change being proposed? --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Wed Jan 5 05:34:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A463A089C for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 05:34:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNPyMv6C7ibX for ; Wed, 5 Jan 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dRFgNR2p9hOR2iya1volbIj5vYD97WmvFU+04TzZ5pc90Qdx0kbCBxydbcJnqwYY0Y vaCuNtDxFK/plRJL2XDApRjITNNFvstXJkhfcYVE= Message-ID: <03ce541b-52d4-e9ab-3687-0fd36d91de4e@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 14:34:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> <895d25fa-2859-f334-d5f1-782134fc9d5e@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------utFB1pOBEZwxd9Dg0xYKcRva" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 13:34:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------utFB1pOBEZwxd9Dg0xYKcRva Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8g3whFq3eMG02ZKi3gHcf0he"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <03ce541b-52d4-e9ab-3687-0fd36d91de4e@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <5864d952-7e83-814e-b6dc-cf4866462c0e@nthpermutation.com> <88486756-40d0-2061-ffa8-37791fd9cdfd@lear.ch> <0ac6a85a-b15d-8efc-550d-b8e3797a10ff@lear.ch> <0B425B35-0969-4031-B93E-CF6FE5D58EF2@csperkins.org> 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Wed, 05 Jan 2022 17:46:39 -0000 --000000000000a86f1a05d4d95549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:58 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi EKR > On 04.01.22 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could >> surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the >> responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by >> raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that >> don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration. >> > > Yes, that would work for me. > > So long as it is clear that feedback received as part of a "broader > review" may shift consensus, > Absolutely that should be clear. -Ekr > Step 6 is the relevant clause. It may be helpful to highlight that in > Section 3.2.3. > > Eliot > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000a86f1a05d4d95549 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:58 AM Eliot= Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi EKR

On 04.01.22 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote:
One way to look at it is that the community call for comment could
surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so it's the
responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review process by
raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community concerns that
don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration.

Yes, that would work for me.

So long as it is clear that feedback received as part of a "broader review" may shift consensus,


Absolutely that should be clear.

-Ekr
=C2=A0

Step 6 is the relevant clause. It may be helpful to highlight that in Section 3.2.3.

Eliot

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
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I have made a small editorial PR >> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 >> ) >> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >> Github, I recap them here. >> >> >> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >> to have a meeting? >> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 >> > > I tend to think not. Here is suggested text: ### When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The RSWG may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are consistent with RFC 2418. ### As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/ (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic guidance might be: "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person meetings and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18sm3687932pjy.6.2022.01.05.16.37.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jan 2022 16:37:53 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:37:49 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:38:00 -0000 On 06-Jan-22 13:24, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/3/22 5:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally >>> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR >>> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 >>> ) >>> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >>> Github, I recap them here. >>> >>> >>> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >>> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >>> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >>> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >>> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >>> to have a meeting? >>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 >>> >> >> I tend to think not. > > Here is suggested text: > > ### > > When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an > open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The > RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The RSWG > may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., > GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, > and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are > consistent with RFC 2418. > > ### Works for me. > > As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say > something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/ > (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic guidance might be: > > "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which > shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person meetings > and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." We already cite 2418 which requires advance notice of meetings, so this may not be necessary. No objection, however. Brian > > Peter > From nobody Wed Jan 5 16:38:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256413A1044 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_RDNS_DYNAMIC_FP=0.002, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DzVgM9AYkvZl for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6141D3A1068 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1CD1109610E; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:38:23 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Scott Bradner In-Reply-To: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:38:23 -0500 Cc: Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:38:30 -0000 maybe: "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which = shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person or = hybrid meetings and at least two weeks in advance for all-online = meetings." > On Jan 5, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 1/3/22 5:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>>=20 >>> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally >>> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR >>> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 = ) >>> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >>> Github, I recap them here. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >>> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >>> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >>> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >>> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >>> to have a meeting? >>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 = >> I tend to think not. >=20 > Here is suggested text: >=20 > ### >=20 > When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an > open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The > RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The RSWG > may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., > GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, > and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are > consistent with RFC 2418. >=20 > ### >=20 > As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say = something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of = https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidanc= e-2016-01-16/ (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic = guidance might be: >=20 > "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, = which shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person = meetings and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Jan 5 16:41:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A883A10B7 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:41:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:41:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:41:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:41:17 -0000 On 1/5/22 5:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 06-Jan-22 13:24, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/3/22 5:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> Hi folks, >>>> >>>> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally >>>> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR >>>> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 >>>> ) >>>> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >>>> Github, I recap them here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >>>> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >>>> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >>>> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >>>> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >>>> to have a meeting? >>>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 >>>> >>> >>> I tend to think not. >> >> Here is suggested text: >> >> ### >> >> When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an >> open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The >> RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The RSWG >> may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., >> GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, >> and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are >> consistent with RFC 2418. >> >> ### > > Works for me. > >> >> As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say >> something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of >> https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/ >> >> (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic guidance >> might be: >> >> "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which >> shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person meetings >> and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." > > We already cite 2418 which requires advance notice of meetings, so this > may not be necessary. No objection, however. RFC 2418 says: Interim meetings are subject to the same rules for advance notification, reporting, open participation, and process, which apply to other working group meetings. However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance notification for "other working group meetings". I must be missing something obvious. Peter From nobody Wed Jan 5 16:43:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85AB3A10CC for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:43:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_RDNS_DYNAMIC_FP=0.002, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zYGMMSjYqIp4 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187A83A10C9 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F47210961CB; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:43:02 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Scott Bradner In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:43:01 -0500 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:43:09 -0000 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance notification = for "other working group meetings". I must be missing something obvious. 7.1. Session documents All relevant documents to be discussed at a session should be published and available as Internet-Drafts at least two weeks before a session starts. Any document which does not meet this publication deadline can only be discussed in a working group session with the specific approval of the working group chair(s). Since it is important that working group members have adequate time to review all documents, granting such an exception should only be done under unusual conditions. The final session agenda should be posted to the working group mailing list at least two weeks before the session and sent at that time to agenda@ietf.org for publication on the IETF web site. > On Jan 5, 2022, at 7:41 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 1/5/22 5:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 06-Jan-22 13:24, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 1/3/22 5:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> Hi folks, >>>>>=20 >>>>> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally >>>>> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR >>>>> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 >>>>> ) >>>>> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >>>>> Github, I recap them here. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >>>>> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >>>>> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >>>>> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >>>>> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >>>>> to have a meeting? >>>>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 >>>>> >>>>=20 >>>> I tend to think not. >>>=20 >>> Here is suggested text: >>>=20 >>> ### >>>=20 >>> When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an >>> open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The >>> RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The = RSWG >>> may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., >>> GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, >>> and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are >>> consistent with RFC 2418. >>>=20 >>> ### >> Works for me. >>>=20 >>> As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say >>> something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of >>> = https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidanc= e-2016-01-16/=20 >>> (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic guidance = might be: >>>=20 >>> "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, = which >>> shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person = meetings >>> and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." >> We already cite 2418 which requires advance notice of meetings, so = this may not be necessary. No objection, however. >=20 > RFC 2418 says: >=20 > Interim meetings are subject to the > same rules for advance notification, reporting, open participation, > and process, which apply to other working group meetings. >=20 > However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance notification = for "other working group meetings". I must be missing something obvious. >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Jan 5 16:44:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FE23A10D7 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:44:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=hOWQojIV; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SeQX3dS1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HJwMsLE4lzOQ for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC7C73A10D5 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303883201DB9; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 05 Jan 2022 19:44:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=h HI7dithp5Hi/yHoT5ZDzCt+PsGf5t/o51WWHSCEJSU=; b=hOWQojIVF9n+ecQY7 LKy8/cipPuThw/uPtl8T3E1Z47IeigHITAGL8seKbPeBodp+r3pzlzKQCVfcXXn6 TCCujqQd6TOLiW7Iu8jOxs9hyY8wHFIIFoJvN0780vXS8RYPCZPXDjDhNQ+mKiYf FnJt/GwSCmtq2AxCxpgzxGoRALU+oXa08OzJpVpYdEXvMk8xwykmAetJ/rEa4STP 4bCWC0YqULZs+NMuBCxh/6kHhuRXoRkG3vHtoke3yKe8ttgAbWRoiu2I4Z8YTXRk hkF+t3YlVUpMM+BZ8WAdOguFzSMrPa3IRnLd5rtHVM9TkNUlJOEaBtRMsmPOdn/m fGZuQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=hHI7dithp5Hi/yHoT5ZDzCt+PsGf5t/o51WWHSCEJ SU=; b=SeQX3dS1DohHD4pzluIcAPM/yoeQwXha40eDoiS2HOXgrm4TYtLOyp373 yyN5X+8QU8uv9LXV5ONh2YAp7ht+lUrOtT0SHc9ZXI9NrlrE8dmrQoR9MCnypQH4 kyeRq6fu4rTr53vtuOaNsUyxr0xn82Y9jQnV9rD3tWzk3py9LNcIIRWMaAMmL59o 1rLTzmeq8sY8/44mITTVZFhPpPbdzVwfJBMLR+RPY5E9x54g31c1P1jaqvxdTLWg bhKrQNgAIv/jEjdYs1JmakIgZQGYtTt29aaekgcRQ0EW0olozKjEqRMUF9JgYHA/ Q2HVQleflPX4W83+8+8wn1D8RCftQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudefjedguddtgecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvght vghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhgeetgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeu heefleekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:44:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13b8addb-fba2-606f-6ad4-e718b06a7956@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:44:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Scott Bradner Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:44:47 -0000 On 1/5/22 5:43 PM, Scott Bradner wrote: > Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance notification for "other working group meetings". I must be missing something obvious. > > 7.1. Session documents > > All relevant documents to be discussed at a session should be > published and available as Internet-Drafts at least two weeks before > a session starts. Any document which does not meet this publication > deadline can only be discussed in a working group session with the > specific approval of the working group chair(s). Since it is > important that working group members have adequate time to review all > documents, granting such an exception should only be done under > unusual conditions. The final session agenda should be posted to the > working group mailing list at least two weeks before the session and > sent at that time to agenda@ietf.org for publication on the IETF web > site. Right, I suppose that counts as "advance notification" (even though it doesn't exactly say when a meeting is to be announced). Peter From nobody Wed Jan 5 16:47:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585393A10E0 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:47:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_RDNS_DYNAMIC_FP=0.002, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NSrSFzuLVokO for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956FD3A10DD for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DFADF1096241; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:46:55 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Scott Bradner In-Reply-To: <13b8addb-fba2-606f-6ad4-e718b06a7956@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:46:55 -0500 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <96BCD1DF-9C2F-4F29-9136-2EE1B4AF463E@sobco.com> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> <13b8addb-fba2-606f-6ad4-e718b06a7956@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:47:01 -0000 agreed - not as clear as it might have been :-) > On Jan 5, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 1/5/22 5:43 PM, Scott Bradner wrote: >> Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance = notification for "other working group meetings". I must be missing = something obvious. >> 7.1. Session documents >> All relevant documents to be discussed at a session should be >> published and available as Internet-Drafts at least two weeks = before >> a session starts. Any document which does not meet this = publication >> deadline can only be discussed in a working group session with the >> specific approval of the working group chair(s). Since it is >> important that working group members have adequate time to review = all >> documents, granting such an exception should only be done under >> unusual conditions. The final session agenda should be posted to = the >> working group mailing list at least two weeks before the session = and >> sent at that time to agenda@ietf.org for publication on the IETF = web >> site. >=20 > Right, I suppose that counts as "advance notification" (even though it = doesn't exactly say when a meeting is to be announced). >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Jan 5 16:47:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094B93A10E3 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:47:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KE4cDQ0XgYUd for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C32F23A10E1 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id r16-20020a17090a0ad000b001b276aa3aabso6572285pje.0 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 16:47:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=plz+OupKAZ3TXbRKfmF2VQLuFM7kfujzHFrTiVDmvfU=; b=kAPSRfYfohsLMyhwBEHvAi2p95rsSFBQR7qMrEk4XXEUDOuPBxAWZZWTgevlhF7eQi I4xw3bmdNc7nF/mlELc+Nj/g3Bc4mFnvehhqOAmzgyRzCUr+H70+50i7xlb3vvPJ6jrX omoIG85CTlCFvR3GldI13Xew0VT6tXfOMrsbeQDxcumLZgxsqdKnkutkLfoqx+Ovbaxt 13nYzO0nrUw9vVXCqwKdCwTiion446z42JCOTEtUcv1E421vICAUcCHDKEg1ck7zZPbI YB62uyip/Y59Yyu/puxaVf5HKehk6C9pZqPWYyK2LsGMj4JJNLFFm8scaVZo/aIQ7/xu Tv5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=plz+OupKAZ3TXbRKfmF2VQLuFM7kfujzHFrTiVDmvfU=; b=cnTcXE7BuGkpYloFh+Qp/xdGqalfUe+FGbpeAVKxnA33aD/GgSULNAnPQ4fFCsn6bz uR/x0sREZGSIBY96dQSzR4RVnvInd/hbY1W6wBN747Zag9KrEEwQ1EyulCEVRJKkNOic pzLmwda8r6Vj6EuCZFSBqEftTouD8yCJJBD7OlMLJW0VeiWNQFxgguXHIomXiV1QSRqM xJLvxXRQLyeN5XMtbIFJ0Q8JRGCYId8XobMgq3kVjHMC38r3N+lwtYbdaRNc8ajSDGqM 2YonTza5BjwpoIGJKE+mfWOKDTB5zCKNltDjWVNYLDdjgW8ZCJnnWnMkdEMlF7al/bCt OJKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pzIzPSoKb0K7mV7AKArzBogzjy6Tu9EgKv8aTDAUeLA/gBhH1 x5inhAhGbcjhLu87YLLk/o9M9QP2Nj/JeQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyu8R9apE0P5wFvN3nledlC8kTf6PtnQUvBixZrCdfHy0WpyQy/+l6Wd3QDe6A52Qrtv6li3g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:17c2:: with SMTP id me2mr7111956pjb.162.1641430045221; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 16:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p6sm180836pgl.16.2022.01.05.16.47.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jan 2022 16:47:24 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:47:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:47:31 -0000 On 06-Jan-22 13:41, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/5/22 5:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 06-Jan-22 13:24, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 1/3/22 5:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> Hi folks, >>>>> >>>>> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally >>>>> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR >>>>> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 >>>>> ) >>>>> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >>>>> Github, I recap them here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >>>>> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >>>>> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >>>>> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >>>>> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >>>>> to have a meeting? >>>>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 >>>>> >>>> >>>> I tend to think not. >>> >>> Here is suggested text: >>> >>> ### >>> >>> When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an >>> open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The >>> RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The RSWG >>> may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., >>> GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, >>> and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are >>> consistent with RFC 2418. >>> >>> ### >> >> Works for me. >> >>> >>> As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say >>> something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of >>> https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/ >>> >>> (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic guidance >>> might be: >>> >>> "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which >>> shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person meetings >>> and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." >> >> We already cite 2418 which requires advance notice of meetings, so this >> may not be necessary. No objection, however. > > RFC 2418 says: > > Interim meetings are subject to the > same rules for advance notification, reporting, open participation, > and process, which apply to other working group meetings. > > However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance notification > for "other working group meetings". I must be missing something obvious. Logically, that refers to non-interim meetings, i.e. meetings during IETF weeks, but I agree that the phrasing is a bit odd. Fortunately RFC2418bis is out of scope here :-). 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It's well-nigh impossible to make explicit every assumption underlying a document like that. I'm sure folks will find similar things with the work we're doing here... Peter From nobody Wed Jan 5 17:37:29 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FAF3A12D5 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:37:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=FOVJtbYk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=CpuwQ3w3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JAQhtOmwvM1K for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D8873A0DA2 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06653201DE8; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 20:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 05 Jan 2022 20:37:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:from:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=VUt2Fq9IxBoqICQ4regcKPn7ZY in1tLR2DuNd0rB5n0=; b=FOVJtbYkE2cQPCBlq0tX3FHlrUPVGF/dZQ/V99lA+l 4nSfj0ceyr0HFSxAF8ZltAb3CyddNrDlw82Qky1SXiBVNWipK/gXP7zV5iMs+eYB V3cwg8RlHk43w4BVsQ3T8gJwObcsmbG16rbnYtW6z2P9VYCkkgIzNbMQdRP9BBJx /2FQxqTzAuxFTAOWrQWD0fvZwqxGpQRnm8LQHYBix9w942ixz05dO7Q91m1TdcSc 8S0tZwxbHxLQa2IxeThvT9HOK52/FsiY5mTuXvGB324Rb7p/DzaP6AYNPqcZl4Nf wYoAQbC8CDXh48Hs7hu2z9/FLOTGh08v6d45Sik6DUHA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=VUt2Fq 9IxBoqICQ4regcKPn7ZYin1tLR2DuNd0rB5n0=; b=CpuwQ3w3WTuHOEvIpNI9sX hwAjBMEZLzxme0vH0Y+Qrw4dKeQsDkmppP7RumpGgl2XADsAUI8K+IPY1qzf/1vU nkyIfNJxxlfgCzjHTHZW45znLT8EXAcbfaQjrBxA1t07kZ+3U7pRPyu4zxqVb58a t+rsXrUqEwEOOwEzLqJbLTFDEGqqifGJqxth8URQekExlvzo0lpHbttyq+O5DAlI 20sNaUAFhG0njhG35RoSvk3YJw81OZifzZo30aeabqmS7eC72Eyi81TwbUlcEoFr f2ixT/rtOmWodBOXDddA+d4X/SWrV71MWpSW9LQOQjfypeQWrLnq8FoiWNs2lMfg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudefjedguddugecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvffhufgtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvght vghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfeetleekveeggfehgf efgeeiudetgfeguddtjeelheduvefhleeujefggeffteeunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrh drihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 20:37:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:37:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 01:37:27 -0000 The draft says: The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Brian Carpenter noted: "As far as I can see, we don't specify whether the RSAB's mailing list does, or doesn't, have a public archive." Do folks have opinions on this point? (Without my editor hat on, I think it's preferable to make the list archives public, in the interest of transparency.) Peter From nobody Wed Jan 5 17:44:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355983A134D for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:44:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WkHs9bOQw2gz for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72ECA3A134C for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 17:44:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n5HpO-000CPd-6K; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 20:44:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 20:44:23 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Scott Bradner , Peter Saint-Andre cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <39A3792DA76E797670E06BA0@PSB> In-Reply-To: <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 01:44:40 -0000 --On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 19:43 -0500 Scott Bradner wrote: > Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance > notification for "other working group meetings". I must be > missing something obvious. > > 7.1. Session documents > > All relevant documents to be discussed at a session should > be published and available as Internet-Drafts at least two > weeks before a session starts. Any document which does not > meet this publication deadline can only be discussed in a > working group session with the specific approval of the > working group chair(s). Since it is important that working > group members have adequate time to review all documents, > granting such an exception should only be done under > unusual conditions. The final session agenda should be posted > to the working group mailing list at least two weeks before > the session and sent at that time to agenda@ietf.org for > publication on the IETF web site. Of course, in addition to whatever properties it might have as a model of clarity, the rules of that section may be a rather good candidate for the set of IETF procedural requirements that are most often completely ignored, and ignored without any consequences. :-(. In particular, if this group were required to follow IETF WG rules, IIR that document availability rule has been violated more than once. In any event, the RSWG is _not_ an IETF working group, so it is not clear how applicable RFC 2418 is. In particular, a decent protocol or procedure lawyer could easily claim that anything the RSWG does is "consistent with RFC 2418". Because 2418 says nothing about non-IETF WGs, anything such a body is consistent with its specifications. Add to that the observation that, if we are lucky, 2418bis might actually be approved reasonably early in the RSWG's life, requiring that provisions of this document and the normative reference be noticed and updated, and I'd argue for making this provision self-contained. That might be just Peter's text at the beginning of this thread plus * A statement about how far in advance any relevant documents are supposed to be available. * A statement that notification should be to all of the lists used by the RSAB/RSWG for other purposes. That list should either be enumerated in the document or, better, the RSAB charged with maintaining such a list and keeping it publicly available. john From nobody Wed Jan 5 18:05:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F35F3A13C7 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=Qx8kgCvI; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=T9Wm9Mwl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u1I3wDTb1DcT for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C561C3A13C8 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A533201FEF; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 21:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 05 Jan 2022 21:04:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=i VUMhNtS66FbxVzzPbfhq/fXQOWd6M/FQl9m9jllqP4=; b=Qx8kgCvIaAwL5WSNS +WBfW5+hv4SBVif+FeKrbJmxbG8uL5H8gYEJejELNpRiP9yN0k3MfG8iwYvJs5+O I445f6TrEx9wdfFSCYiYq0B2UKgcMgWdnO5JVZFKtHUCrxP4Cdcb9fFEQxqB6oj0 Gt6WOSRTtynmv8svWMgSfGEoX9ns+3TrKdL8dLDl8siRxtLFr03P/0kGO7mNwuEb 1w508SdfGB6bbMQKNLyWIoSmtnii1p4NhE9okiH8crI+kHTStFZ+fXBLOWjfwFNg RZICBIiKeLdZjGzYRgCZd5VSPSemJSz6Pk81DhF2ZUPos/W7YjL74HmnPZx7wkHR ZqVHA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=iVUMhNtS66FbxVzzPbfhq/fXQOWd6M/FQl9m9jllq P4=; b=T9Wm9Mwlb01jZyv2QUQUqYXAUj5NRSp57Ivn+1r1NP/8bl40CXos1LgEJ BC+20FUoKp6VTRlZd4lc5gR+v+1lg3v7uGdNMLSf6xVB5ni90t8+WL7R8D+2+MpO L9F45g6fQAaNjfAavfeISdd9gZTsD/YtvtydLbdsf4MrYxHiynNKKbPOS1q5DTBt 8piT4N+wFWSWCcsNNhE/NwKhGAs53kOJN/MMuWXt0UL428oADCbRLtMJEN6WFJ/O V9GyGRVwGigBttaBoa/P+1hTwnBszfoyGy3A7FBuxLKbIxQgNzIsg8U+QbK1MLFg 6ga2X8r1f5Kn8Zn2DfTDZzpYWEg2w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudefjedguddvtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhp vghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeugeefvdekte efgeekkeeggffgueetteehgedvgfffveegkefgleehtdegteefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvth gvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 21:04:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7237579c-f17a-c96f-41cb-9d8d13b783c2@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:04:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <18d1c2c5-cb1d-58d3-d566-0b5f55f7d28f@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <18d1c2c5-cb1d-58d3-d566-0b5f55f7d28f@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on -07 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 02:05:01 -0000 Hi Mike, apologies for the delayed reply. On 12/22/21 1:56 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > As I noted before, this is in pretty good shape excluding the RPC RSAB > membership stuff and maybe a few more things. > > S 3.2.4 - "Appeals of RSWG decisions..." - The RSWG doesn't make > decisions, it comes to consensus and that consensus is judged by the > RSWG chairs.  So instead "Appeals of any decisions of the RSWG chairs, > including declining to decide an open issue in their purview after a > suitable period shall be made to the RSAB." Similarly in the next > sentence.  "Decisions of the RSWG chairs..." and later "... notice > having been given to the RSWG [mailing list | chairs]?" - I think this > is editorial. Agreed, your text is clearer. > S 4.3, bullet 8 - noted elsewhere, still haven't had an issue opened. > Question is whether this bullet is an "RPC MAY participate in the RSWG > as it needs to" or "RPC MUST participate".   Since the bullets open with > > More specifically, the RPC's responsibilities at the time of writing > include the following: > >  it currently reads as a "MUST", and I'm not sure they are > resourced for it, nor whether this makes the most sense for their > current skillsets and staffing.   I'd be happy with clarifying this > is an optional (MAY) interaction, especially since we appear to have > settled on the RPC being a non-voting ex officio member of the > RSAB.  So text: > > 8. The RPC may, as it determines necessary, participate within > the RSWG in the creation of new Editorial Stream RFCs, > especially those that might impact the RPC. As to resourcing, I'd like to hear what Jay thinks but he is on vacation right now. More generally, I don't see how we can expect good results if we don't ask for any input from the implementers (i.e., the RPC) until late in the process (via the RSAB). So it seems to me they need to participate to some extent in RSWG discussions. > I explicitly left out "advisory" here - I think the RSWG open group > model really should avoid restricting people to an advisory role. I think we (I?) meant that RPC should provide input about whether proposed policy changes can be implemented. Perhaps we should say exactly that: 8. Participating within the RSWG in the creation of new Editorial Stream RFCs that impact the RPC, specifically with respect to any challenges the RPS might forsee with regard to implementation of proposed policies. > That's left to the following proposed language: > > 8.1 The RPC may participate in the RSAB as a non-voting > ex-officio member primarily as an advisor on RPC capabilities, > schedules, staffing and resources. As mentioned, I think that's too late in the process. Now, if RPC folks want to raise concerns with the RSAB and ask RSAB members to bring those concerns to the RSWG list, I wouldn't have deep objections. > S 4.3 bullet 16 - Is this needed if the RPC is an ex officio member of > the RSAB?  Shouldn't that be where this interaction mostly happens? > "Stream approving bodies" is different than "stream manager" and not > having a single POC might be problematic.  (Sorry - I see this change > was made -05 to -06, but there are a number of places in this document > where telling the RPC to talk to an organization is just a bad idea - > this comes under the heading of unintended consequences). RFC 8729 says "there is a different approving body for each stream". Our draft talks about stream representatives, who are the particular individuals serving on the RSAB for each stream. I'm not overly worried about the difference, because there are instances where RPC folks might need to discuss matters with the bodies rather than the stream reps / RSAB members (e.g., there's an RPC liaison to the IESG) or with people who are active in that particular stream (e.g., WG chairs or document shepherds). Indeed, stipulating that RPC folks can talk only with the stream rep / RSAB member could be an unnecessary constraint: they should be able to talk with anyone who can help solve the problem at hand. > S 4.6.2 - S/The/Most/ first word.   I think we're adding or changing > some costs here, but claiming there are no new expenses is more probably > wrong that right. - nit. ACK. > S 5.3 - Reading this - is it possible for a temporary RSCE to be > appointed as a volunteer?  (Was Olaf K an unpaid volunteer during his > short term as RSE?).  If a volunteer steps in temporarily, does that > change who gets to do the approvals?  Happy if the answer to "unpaid > volunteer" is no, but if yes, not sure why the LLC would need to sign off. I'm skipping this one for purposes of this message, see elsewhere in this thread. > S 6 - 2nd para - "The Editorial Stream will be used...." to "The > Editorial Stream shall be used..." - nit. ACK. > S 6.1 "These procedures need to also allow authors to indicate either no > rights to make derivative works, or preferentially, the right to make > unlimited derivative works from the documents." is probably to > specific.   I looked at this one and I think I see a land mine. We're > trying to specify legal language here and if not careful could conflict > with the language of 5378.  Instead: > > These procedures need to allow authors to indicate rights requests > consistent with BCP78 (currently RFC5378) or it successor.   The > publication of a successor document to RFC5378 and designation as > BCP 78 shall be effective on the Editorial Stream process as of the > BCP's publication date. > > Or get a lawyer to craft this. This text was copied verbatim (mutatis mutandis) from RFC 5744. If things have changed then, I suggest we ask Jay to look into it with counsel. > S 7 - I'm mostly happy with the list, but I'm still unhappy there is no > language that the RSAB can use these items as part of their > determination as "harm to the system".  I'm afraid that the RSWG will > mostly ignore these as there really is no penalty for doing so, and the > RSAB won't have a leg to stand on to push back.  I'll shut up now. We do say: 3. The RSWG shall then further discuss and develop the proposal. All participants, but especially RSAB members, should pay special attention to any aspects of the proposal that have the potential to significantly modify policies of long standing or historical characteristics of the Series as described under Section 7. and In cases where a proposal has the potential to significantly modify policies of long standing or historical characteristics of the Series as described under Section 7, the RSAB should take extra care to reach out to even broader communities that make use of RFCs, such as scholarly researchers, procurement managers, and standards development organizations. Do we need to say more? > Good work to Peter dealing with all of this. Thanks, Mike. 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However, I think it's unrealistic to imagine in-person RSWG meetings independent of IETF meetings; the travel costs would just not make sense. I think we should say so explicitly. That would also raise the question of funding, but we could probably assume that all the participants in the RSWG would attend some other WG or RG anyway. Maybe this needs an additional issue. Regards, Martin. On 2022-01-06 09:38, Scott Bradner wrote: > maybe: > "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person or hybrid meetings and at least two weeks in advance for all-online meetings." > >> On Jan 5, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 1/3/22 5:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> Hi folks, >>>> >>>> I have reviewed this document and feel that it is generally >>>> in good shape. I have made a small editorial PR >>>> (https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148 ) >>>> and filed four issues. As I know some people don't like using >>>> Github, I recap them here. >>>> >>>> >>>> Issue 144: The current text seems to say that we would need >>>> WG consensus for any other mode of operation than a mailing >>>> list, including a meeting. I understand that people want >>>> to require consensus to use Github and I'm not trying >>>> to change that, but do we really need to require consensus >>>> to have a meeting? >>>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144 >>> I tend to think not. >> >> Here is suggested text: >> >> ### >> >> When the RSWG is formed, all discussions shall take place on an >> open email discussion list, which shall be publicly archived. The >> RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings. The RSWG >> may also decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling (e.g., >> GitHub as specified in RFC 8874), forms of communication, >> and working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are >> consistent with RFC 2418. >> >> ### >> >> As Ekr and I discussed briefly in the GitHub issue, we might to say something about advance notice for meetings, along the lines of https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/ (or perhaps should we just point there?). The most basic guidance might be: >> >> "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person meetings and at least two weeks in advance for online meetings." >> >> Peter >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > -- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan From nobody Wed Jan 5 19:44:06 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2F23A1614 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:44:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kFSN032mLv07 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41A913A1613 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n5Jgu-000CYb-4h; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 22:43:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 22:43:47 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= cc: Scott Bradner , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> In-Reply-To: <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RSWG meetings and IETF meetings (Re: Issue 144) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 03:44:05 -0000 --On Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:53 +0900 "Martin J. = D=C3=BCrst" wrote: > So far, this discussion seems to be going in the right > direction. >=20 > However, I think it's unrealistic to imagine in-person RSWG > meetings independent of IETF meetings; the travel costs would > just not make sense. I think we should say so explicitly. That > would also raise the question of funding, but we could > probably assume that all the participants in the RSWG would > attend some other WG or RG anyway. Martin, Yes, but... If we are going to go in this direction and spell that out, we also need to be clear that RSWG f2f meetings, with IETF or not, must have provision for effective offsite/online participation. In addition to all the usual reasons (with or without the pandemic), we want to be very sure that we don't exclude the non-IETF users/ customers for the RFC Series from the RSWG. While my expectations that many (or even a few) of them will actively participate are very low, doing anything that blocks their participation would be really bad news. best, john From nobody Wed Jan 5 19:47:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0743A1624 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.614 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.614 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i9AhpSqpn2Hs for ; 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Dürst" > wrote: > >> So far, this discussion seems to be going in the right >> direction. >> >> However, I think it's unrealistic to imagine in-person RSWG >> meetings independent of IETF meetings; the travel costs would >> just not make sense. I think we should say so explicitly. That >> would also raise the question of funding, but we could >> probably assume that all the participants in the RSWG would >> attend some other WG or RG anyway. > > Martin, > > Yes, but... > > If we are going to go in this direction and spell that out, we > also need to be clear that RSWG f2f meetings, with IETF or not, > must have provision for effective offsite/online participation. > In addition to all the usual reasons (with or without the > pandemic), we want to be very sure that we don't exclude the > non-IETF users/ customers for the RFC Series from the RSWG. > While my expectations that many (or even a few) of them will > actively participate are very low, doing anything that blocks > their participation would be really bad news. > > best, > john I fully agree. Regards, Martin. 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<1035b70d-0c1c-7656-7a1c-098872d78edf@lear.ch> Subject: very modest editorial on the RSAG --------------cPO8NSv7t9sAFHzqwXL8bJlP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3uWD5UtsgFzkoqPSJcOM3eiK" --------------3uWD5UtsgFzkoqPSJcOM3eiK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSdtIHByb3Bvc2luZyB0byBhZGQgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBpbiB0aGUgc2VjdGlvbiB0aGF0 IChvbmNlIGFnYWluKSANCmRpc3BlbnNlcyB3aXRoIHRoZSBSU0FHOg0KDQo+IChUaGlzIGlz IG5vdCB0byBiZSBjb25mdXNlZCB3aXRoIHRoZQ0KPiBSRkMgU2VyaWVzIEFwcHJvdmFsIEJv YXJkIChSU0E+QjwpLCB3aGljaCB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGVzdGFibGlzaGVzLikNCg0KSSB0 aGluayBvbmUgY291bGQgYmUgZm9yZ2l2ZW4gaWYgb25lIGxvc3QgdHJhY2sgb2YgYWxsIHRo ZSB2YXJpb3VzIGFjcm9ueW1zLg0KDQpFbGlvdA0KDQo= --------------3uWD5UtsgFzkoqPSJcOM3eiK Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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SIGNATURE----- --------------SFFSZSDhGE08VeVcz7MIKiRq-- From nobody Thu Jan 6 04:31:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D2D3A09AD for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 04:31:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2zQcVWnY8CWr for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 04:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BD983A09AB for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 04:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.131] (77-58-144-232.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.144.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 206CUo6D027132 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:30:50 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641472251; bh=NPH7rYXvWR2s/y3dtAa4uNBovSqLAtSOH540pR4DXF8=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=A5SlP6gXDs063cwN0YqPkHNIMEUZnYv2Ou0tGos5JRGEV1uGeQsMifaVDAZUYY3Qi O2SEhlEf4xeepZSPNTaSd6ypd5ETx6wFkR37XKgR5kxsyO28LXMmHYeptOP6Cciyqm DDBC693Jgh3cEAdlSLO9NFN0dmFFG+rvn0dePyy0= Message-ID: <9c12a079-5b4a-5b1a-6fd0-f01c6ed05b94@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:30:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> <0586FE1B-18F1-41C1-9F8E-D4BD42D3814B@mnot.net> <0ea56594-2a74-4dc2-ff42-bf73acca00be@lear.ch> <650d784a-a7e8-e27b-e8ea-1f4cf610cd8a@nthpermutation.com> <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------10KSckBnUv0XPfGXWvpeFcjo" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 134: Re: How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:31:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------10KSckBnUv0XPfGXWvpeFcjo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------kUt0oU4XhdFw5iNK89phrb2L"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <9c12a079-5b4a-5b1a-6fd0-f01c6ed05b94@lear.ch> Subject: Issue 134: Re: How can this process be changed? References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> <0586FE1B-18F1-41C1-9F8E-D4BD42D3814B@mnot.net> <0ea56594-2a74-4dc2-ff42-bf73acca00be@lear.ch> <650d784a-a7e8-e27b-e8ea-1f4cf610cd8a@nthpermutation.com> <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> --------------kUt0oU4XhdFw5iNK89phrb2L Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Wg3sJqWPn0vR1kaNjyIJNS67" --------------Wg3sJqWPn0vR1kaNjyIJNS67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2UgZGlkbid0IHF1aXRlIGNsb3NlIG9uIHRoaXMgaXNzdWUuwqAgVGhlcmUgYXJlIHRocmVl IGNhbmRpZGF0ZXM6DQoNCk1hcmsncyB0ZXh0Og0KDQo+IFVwZGF0ZXMsIGFtZW5kbWVudHMg YW5kIHJlZmluZW1lbnRzIG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgY2FuIGJlIHByb2R1Y2VkIA0KPiB1 c2luZyB0aGUgcHJvY2VzcyBkb2N1bWVudGVkIGhlcmUsIGJ1dCBhcmUgb25seSBvcGVyYXRp dmUgdXBvbiANCj4gYWdyZWVtZW50IG9mIHRoZSBJQUIsIHRoZSBJRVNHLCBhbmQgdGhlIElF 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmHW4PUFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejP3 uQgAzJ+brw8/zYumsJ1kKpWHfus+8GowJ90Ri0s1DDgi6+qSx3r5PCF20DR07BxWtC65Yqc5dpzt TzjVMx01iXnbS/nYGf+rf/crw+MaXD49zkIuc9su/3yBOfoDeTl74YJqK+Vgp5KmMVtRO6wmsU0T DiIeT7F1GxNe7fF2QKub5m7x6hdfTZnV/RSSh9WHkZ5x3oEXUi832Y/3K5ju15KMMbh897XR3jpQ 4IS5S9kgYIxhWgRIeqXSZ95fq5LvXpWLguMnbF+aDnS9JiVYjYvB+bVo+BAAvz8tJYH3immwEwg+ k89oSMFf6B2HvjPferdAYcvAe4rHWbBFFA94BvnPmw== =XxsM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------10KSckBnUv0XPfGXWvpeFcjo-- From nobody Thu Jan 6 06:16:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B393A0D0B for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 06:16:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:15:59 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Scott Bradner , Peter Saint-Andre CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 Thread-Index: AQHYApPNtHDykUB2tkq8xi4ZDnwoi6xVehWAgACQnQA= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 14:15:58 +0000 Message-ID: <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.56.21121100 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3425D2114336DE43821F476664907F26@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2022-01-06_05:2022-01-05, 2022-01-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=793 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2112160000 definitions=main-2201060099 X-Proofpoint-GUID: ZyGMIwnuuAjxxX0JjGLN0beUHDn8gFMk X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ZyGMIwnuuAjxxX0JjGLN0beUHDn8gFMk X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-06_05,2022-01-06_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=799 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2112160000 definitions=main-2201060100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 14:16:08 -0000 PiAgICAiVGhlIFJTV0cgaXMgYWxzbyBlbXBvd2VyZWQgdG8gaG9sZCBpbi1wZXJzb24gb3Igb25s aW5lIG1lZXRpbmdzLCB3aGljaCBzaGFsbCBiZSBhbm5vdW5jZWQgYXQgbGVhc3QgZm91ciB3ZWVr cyBpbiBhZHZhbmNlIGZvciBpbi1wZXJzb24gb3IgaHlicmlkIG1lZXRpbmdzIGFuZCBhdCBsZWFz dCB0d28gd2Vla3MgaW4gYWR2YW5jZSBmb3IgYWxsLW9ubGluZSBtZWV0aW5ncy4iDQoNCkFueSBy ZWFzb24gd2UgY2FuJ3QganVzdCBzYXkgIm5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBtdXN0IGZvbGxvdyB0aGUgY3Vy cmVudCBJRVRGIHBvbGljeSIgPw0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jan 6 06:22:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049603A0D1C for ; 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Thu, 06 Jan 2022 08:44:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:43:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Scott Bradner , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033860405d4ec9517" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:44:31 -0000 --00000000000033860405d4ec9517 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is kind of what I had in mind, though maybe we have to copy by value? On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 6:16 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, > which shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-person or > hybrid meetings and at least two weeks in advance for all-online meetings." > > Any reason we can't just say "notification must follow the current IETF > policy" ? > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000033860405d4ec9517 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is kind of what I had in mind, though maybe we have t= o copy by value?

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 6:16 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D<= a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
&g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or onlin= e meetings, which shall be announced at least four weeks in advance for in-= person or hybrid meetings and at least two weeks in advance for all-online = meetings."

Any reason we can't just say "notification must follow the current= IETF policy" ?

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--00000000000033860405d4ec9517-- From nobody Thu Jan 6 08:45:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBDC3A12C4 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5IZocu-Yy2pg for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 787D53A0DA5 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id y18so3803187iob.8 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 08:45:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=susRquxKdO9PIwo0smu6qGRfLkULSTeYjWzuVoIgnWU=; b=bp2T9sF12Cq6LPXbuJ+6UCerIbMDMOa1FKci8Qcq+GgkHm2MdrTtn/gwYH9QvddE0v +aqyiXxFXcxpSxdyALe4mgR5qYee6G5BEEFiG068Bxxdan6/pGkGRvgCR3mly45XxgRy GTqRqTLyNua4pI3tffIG8I0fa6tp1cpUZHkvDuaWQ1z9feq28sS6Oji6WtM3bDdnVfhp 9JCgjDar5vThovIsq8BkdifKBBRmOT0FJ8sDgHYLWDgAB8KR7hwxmwrUBdz2GzAhjgJN XgT8VNsSYuJsQjdm5lYE5PwwgTzLgoijqj3Dt3FRuJFWOPihhGSn4L8FTuht7ZDucCKh 7iZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=susRquxKdO9PIwo0smu6qGRfLkULSTeYjWzuVoIgnWU=; b=Q/yZSfy005qaD9OhT41U1oIuY2fxk+/UsHDd0nj2ufpg1rJjEt+UaZ66X5onO8gXPF kHhKGJko/UnMuZo7Y5nW4t72ommlOvAmLkPxHALrY3dZxVui+4rBFJG42r62QjeZZ9RX 3IMBVCDdCis3wDjFNf5ikgoZXQHftXcxXCZpnf9LsF0tXUUu/QSgwV9v7ZavNnbzIrmu qWfPxjQUoaxTX9+BVOQRdlcAqde3uJqO/5iJgHNZYwAoIILR+nbThisqyAhXZ10cuJvi h7WXWoasY1GexVI6Vc/GJHLvyQwia+xNQ3C7O0q3m8Urs2dRIWBMyPpNQ2iXbsbod0a3 Gi0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sKy8VMhFffNgnQtIJvXtGopj74RATP3MwcPmxFWEoY0oUgr5K VVe1r5EQCjyfus6s7IKtuxgE4YSGQjAdEmCjvkId7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxMCIbilKJ51VZO6IBnqpYAPilHhN2uXTks8yI0VuxBc78RqLjajuK31SckgSGnN8G8lSMGLzZIIknN2JY+1yo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:ed4:: with SMTP id q20mr28520284jas.75.1641487499193; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 08:44:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <2B6CBEBC-0BA5-4F3A-A195-F1C42760BB04@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <2B6CBEBC-0BA5-4F3A-A195-F1C42760BB04@akamai.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:44:23 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004b062a05d4ec9728" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:45:07 -0000 --0000000000004b062a05d4ec9728 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1. If people feel we have to copy by value, then let's just do it exactly. On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 6:22 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/5/22, 8:37 PM, "Peter Saint-Andre" wro= te: > > The draft says: > > The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including > minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. > > Similar to what I just posted, can't we just say this group MUST follow > standard IETF practices for transparency, notification, etc etc? > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000004b062a05d4ec9728 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1. If people feel we have to copy by value, then let'= s just do it exactly.

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 6:22 AM Salz, Rich <rsal= z=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.= org> wrote:


=EF=BB=BFOn 1/5/22, 8:37 PM, "Peter Saint-Andre" <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrot= e:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proc= eedings, including
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 minutes of all meetings and a record of all dec= isions.

Similar to what I just posted, can't we just say this group MUST follow= standard IETF practices for transparency, notification, etc etc?


--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
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Thu, 06 Jan 2022 17:07:46 -0000 --00000000000059920405d4ece82f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 9:02 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > > - This is kind of what I had in mind, though maybe we have to copy by > value? > > > > I don=E2=80=99t want to make a copy, since if the IETF changes its polici= es, the > RSGW should follow what the IETF does. > Sorry for not being clear. I agree with this, but I suspect others may feel differently in that they don't want this to be subject to changed IETF policies. So, my preference order is 1. Refer to the IETF policies 2. Copy the now current IETF policies 3. Invent our own. -Ekr --00000000000059920405d4ece82f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 9:02 AM Salz, = Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote= :

=C2=A0

  • This is kind of what I had in mind, though maybe we have to copy b= y value?

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t want to make a copy, since if the IE= TF changes its policies, the RSGW should follow what the IETF does.


Sorry for not being clear. I= agree with this, but I suspect others may feel differently in that they do= n't want this
to be subject to changed IETF policies.

So, my preference order is

1. Re= fer to the IETF policies
2. Copy the now current IETF policies
3. Invent our own.

-Ekr

=
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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v12sm1858266qkl.50.2022.01.06.09.20.46 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 09:20:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3c0ca0a0-ba13-9876-87f2-2cb954906d06@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:20:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <2B6CBEBC-0BA5-4F3A-A195-F1C42760BB04@akamai.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <2B6CBEBC-0BA5-4F3A-A195-F1C42760BB04@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 17:20:55 -0000 On 1/6/2022 9:22 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > On 1/5/22, 8:37 PM, "Peter Saint-Andre" wrote: > > The draft says: > > The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including > minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. > > Similar to what I just posted, can't we just say this group MUST follow standard IETF practices for transparency, notification, etc etc? > > Because this (RSWG) group is not an IETF working group, and because we don't want to have to special case this stuff so that changes to IETF processes can't cause changes to RSWG processes in a manner that are unexpected. The RSWG will be more like the Nomcom which has its own set of operating instructions, but adopts things by reference that are less likely to affect its remit (e.g. general IETF harassment guidance) than an IETF WG that must change its behavior if the IESG changes an applicable BCP or Informational document.   In the instant case, the record keeping, meeting schedule, etc are all going to need to be RSAB/RSWG specific. So copy by value is fine (EKRs note and Peter's draft text), copy by reference could be problematic later. 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:53:09 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives Thread-Index: AQHYAp36NkuGGM2xGEif4VnAUcicE6xWDH8AgACFjwD//8YAAA== Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:53:09 +0000 Message-ID: <2A6B3D05-5E0D-4D54-AB30-181F280A27CE@akamai.com> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <2B6CBEBC-0BA5-4F3A-A195-F1C42760BB04@akamai.com> <3c0ca0a0-ba13-9876-87f2-2cb954906d06@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <3c0ca0a0-ba13-9876-87f2-2cb954906d06@nthpermutation.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.56.21121100 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3FD0D37CEFCD8440AFCEB88BD462BBCE@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2022-01-06_08:2022-01-05, 2022-01-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201060122 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 1GsS-WZg8-l3WhGjZ3qzRmNC93HBA3y_ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 1GsS-WZg8-l3WhGjZ3qzRmNC93HBA3y_ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-06_07,2022-01-06_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201060122 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 18:53:18 -0000 PiAgSW4gdGhlIGluc3RhbnQgY2FzZSwgdGhlIHJlY29yZCBrZWVwaW5nLCANCiAgICBtZWV0aW5n IHNjaGVkdWxlLCBldGMgYXJlIGFsbCBnb2luZyB0byBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIFJTQUIvUlNXRyBzcGVj aWZpYy4NCg0KT2theS4gSSdtIG5vdCBjb252aW5jZWQgYnV0IEkgd2lsbCBub3QgYXJndWUgdGhl IHBvaW50IGFueSBtb3JlLg0KDQo+ICAgIFNvIGNvcHkgYnkgdmFsdWUgaXMgZmluZSAoRUtScyBu b3RlIGFuZCBQZXRlcidzIGRyYWZ0IHRleHQpLCBjb3B5IGJ5IA0KICAgIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBjb3Vs ZCBiZSBwcm9ibGVtYXRpYyBsYXRlci4NCg0KSSB3b25kZXIgaG93IGl0IGNvdWxkIGJlIHByb2Js ZW1hdGljIChJIGRpc2xpa2UgYnVpbGRpbmcgdGhpbmdzIGZvciBoeXBvdGhldGljYWxzKSwgYnV0 IHNvIGJlIGl0Lg0KDQpJIHdpdGhkcmF3IG15IGNvbmNlcm5zLg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jan 6 11:48:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935CD3A156D for ; 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z15sm3404371pfh.201.2022.01.06.11.48.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 11:48:11 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <1035b70d-0c1c-7656-7a1c-098872d78edf@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:48:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1035b70d-0c1c-7656-7a1c-098872d78edf@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] very modest editorial on the RSAG X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:48:15 -0000 I'd be more inclined to add a glossary appendix. Brian On 07-Jan-22 01:03, Eliot Lear wrote: > I'm proposing to add the following in the section that (once again) > dispenses with the RSAG: > >> (This is not to be confused with the >> RFC Series Approval Board (RSA>B<), which this document establishes.) > > I think one could be forgiven if one lost track of all the various acronyms. > > Eliot > > From nobody Thu Jan 6 11:58:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF253A1596 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:58:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3aYu7KadKZLA for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x630.google.com (mail-pl1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::630]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E7293A1593 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x630.google.com with SMTP id z3so3224003plg.8 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 11:58:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U7BuX7W3XRbPMgevXOIJfj2Jlx4hdkiLWKV5fN2KI/Y=; b=OB9LBRR/PfUJKRrqhqY8MdXGyehevI2NeY3JHFFO3rPeYztUwLt60LF0FFWJV1OodI EMUIt5widhBSLjfuoWDvuWV3GCEiasRI+TGtva0a93z3sSDzjfkujArcYpIplyeinVVe /qMcFJml+wElcb39SaZfYGP8I1ETmOIRXueOJRwZqd9E6Dpvc7YZd7iAyRMcUZZDWLHS 4S892Qiaq6XXetbtTTWo1GXJP8QN7VyzljkfDc9MTxPaS0pGAd05b4S2T7fXLJcLdvOM Tc9s2n6lzuVRFIITZHiwIs1NIRw2DTUrzng9RCpocom9KcWFtnmix/G1y1svHnGaBidz qTKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=U7BuX7W3XRbPMgevXOIJfj2Jlx4hdkiLWKV5fN2KI/Y=; b=rn5jp+NI2xWHk6ODxA5YoctzfC0AD1stVMUkqNlq0xgC61YCIuGTy4WkEIflwkMUil ZORgBJtK2l66YWiFp/H+AVHIyjNnZfcASlfK3KHHmrHxFpbeX2bEX7LPSqhsCqku3e7C EAOwgijt8QC7zO1lMVJDS7b/Dn2XXemTsDnvWP6C+qZXcJVcyjggqt2GiOYq45vizVC5 5brt5vmAT/MSFjT3eMx8JjNMkATIpnBNvvsG/oidfApRZiflz/VlbHAFb05gJ4QWQqta T7qOmHtk9mRtJ32EXGOmqjneeNFVJNdIXGkMUyRkJc++I814cmuH3RRIb9SDBDowsF/i 5pMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533lI8MT5ck6Wur2JHmh0iY744/9vdkvx4Rj5Iuq6bZ4JYGL+zPB A0FZ/65gOCNA2SHsPnT8jZOShQi/xBbh6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzL8YlZBrdfLer27D7l06rgn6T9gOBn2LrBAmBp7ld1rIN67IjXty4w5DI9OpiXwXkDZfEjtA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ff15:: with SMTP id ce21mr12030487pjb.170.1641499108476; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 11:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m19sm3534434pfk.218.2022.01.06.11.58.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 11:58:28 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:58:24 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:58:36 -0000 On 06-Jan-22 14:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > The draft says: > > The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including > minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. > > Brian Carpenter noted: "As far as I can see, we don't specify whether > the RSAB's mailing list does, or doesn't, have a public archive." > > Do folks have opinions on this point? > > (Without my editor hat on, I think it's preferable to make the list > archives public, in the interest of transparency.) So, ignoring the copy-by-value vs copy-by-reference detail, my opinion is that RSAB email should be in a public archive *except* for anything that amounts to an "executive session" discussion. Brian From nobody Thu Jan 6 12:03:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A763A15A1 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:03:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9cGPuB5XrGQW for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 900833A15A0 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id m1so3403530pfk.8 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:03:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EFKxsJiN1HLPY7uk1jSmTv/aFlxDn1Gqrweu+OnaTU0=; b=NlOFPy/Lp5sYmjBW7wnV5EdCglzB9ihpx5siIp/kMEuTeQTD0QqEfrN2Q0sGBzLyit rNPhcfSR6gXsabWj+svryA4M8t28UImh3JBp2ltids+p4UtUvmydmozm/1U3ihjRxaNJ oGly8jIcmvT2xrVX6G9Mq7/IRn+I8WZoo9ueIYoO6xM9F9mSKl6dCIlupALhsjA2v3YD hJ7kVJKkmDprURMLCyIJMlAFMGnHsHfbTZhMamzT1pLh/2UZjOF6yDqUl8MK4DMNcb4B 4kCL9aOA4UTp7tVDGBE4M2vUcmGYvq3NARkUcGXT7OLIoRZNPqEiyppW5V42bQIDxk+2 xJEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EFKxsJiN1HLPY7uk1jSmTv/aFlxDn1Gqrweu+OnaTU0=; b=KjHEhd/QDHDCSoZMw3TtU0XaBPn+eOqBKtCxruOPfw2HZynB286tyKguCnPYjtt0lJ XLVntZB4Il5zrmxarVKuhB3sIhHTewGbbIkujxhLV97yL88idmnQHp/7stCKpNMOTe8g 9477xpRk9UvzQj/FgabL6ZATpGiDmug5lQ3TwW1gTlnJYEHWg003GSfXxn1qCYzYAxn1 BjwHZ+s1iTmENow+GUBLtSc9ceBnB4jgdZCFW0fpo8X5jFEqM2d3gzFOE87RoMqX+SWv 0kJh+yipG4ByXOlQFN1pTvLyMre8aCKHf0y2UNdfiECwm8aixyzE/WOyLK5zwshtI86f PUxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533xoJr4OycVgq4yPvhCJWdWdenUkudA3dkGZVQnOq/UW3JRwSVD YblXfA8FUWSXVlqG0E6Se7tFHA/hN8y2jw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8OvJvkmuvTbXSQ7p86zVYHwXwLrgq1MMQRV4nqfZE815qdrWwZiDFZhjZZyhoJJM+0qG8Aw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:198e:b0:4bb:2522:56b9 with SMTP id d14-20020a056a00198e00b004bb252256b9mr61788156pfl.22.1641499426389; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm2657679pgt.6.2022.01.06.12.03.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:03:45 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> <0586FE1B-18F1-41C1-9F8E-D4BD42D3814B@mnot.net> <0ea56594-2a74-4dc2-ff42-bf73acca00be@lear.ch> <650d784a-a7e8-e27b-e8ea-1f4cf610cd8a@nthpermutation.com> <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> <9c12a079-5b4a-5b1a-6fd0-f01c6ed05b94@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6680efce-880a-1c58-518b-3b4e78a30360@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:03:41 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9c12a079-5b4a-5b1a-6fd0-f01c6ed05b94@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 134: Re: How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:03:53 -0000 Comment below... On 07-Jan-22 01:30, Eliot Lear wrote: > We didn't quite close on this issue.=C2=A0 There are three candidates: >=20 > Mark's text: >=20 >> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced >> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does >> not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, so >> long as the same agreement is found. >=20 > Mark's 2nd sentence provides a backstop to address any process failures= > that could happen either in the RSWG or RSAB.=C2=A0 This specifically > addresses an issue that Mike raised at one point. >=20 > Mirja's text: >=20 >> "Updates, amendments and refinements of this document require >> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC." >=20 > And Brian's text: >=20 >> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced >> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC >> with regard to matters falling under their respective remits. >=20 > Brian's text came about as part of a discussion as to whether the LLC > should have an approval role here. >=20 > I am a little unsure as to how that would be implemented. =C2=A0 How wo= uld > you as an IAB/IESG/LLC member interpret that sentence? Could a NO vote > be appealable as to whether something is outside a remit of an org?=C2=A0=20 How > about a YES vote?=C2=A0 Could that be appealable?=C2=A0 And how would o= ne know why > someone is voting as they do? >=20 > It may be helpful to restate Brian's text as follows: >=20 >> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced >> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >> agreement of the IAB and the IESG, and with no objections from the LLC= >> with regard to their ability to implement any proposed change. Yes, that scopes it correctly. For example, if a change unintentionally required the LLC or its contractor to break GDPR or any other law, or overspend its budget, this would catch it. Brian >=20 > The analogy here might be that of an IANA considerations section, where= > IANA reviews and clears a document. >=20 > ? >=20 > Eliot >=20 From nobody Thu Jan 6 12:08:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FD23A15B2 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:08:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FvhCoyTHeZIN for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1DC03A15B1 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id g11-20020a17090a7d0b00b001b2c12c7273so5316030pjl.0 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tn1IAsmy2xMwVmIY5ExFd8YqP/tEAFXEejq2lXzTAqo=; b=CE3asyNv81aVBwzcAgWwF9eXox2wPfF7ZS5VTv4S+XX4NEwbUtXEmVS96wf6ogROgx J5uoVDYhqsMHBERvP+KI8zafPgEeI/SGsVd+ahkbb8OsDIBeqsGFJtOzFEfrH8okSBVi uv9fc3XYS3oTjMr0+L9FGN1vS2chkOZ1rjmSIpXr3ptp/Wg5gUdw0V7WdA8DazF+nR37 hFm71c0RNbXErY849ZLlRxNToe1rrdFng19iXtJBULCMZTeOfplEM7fY7nf3BDVd075C E7SSimvHL9hPZW0YQT1F9dCqDKNesiQdVNJPL0v+otdHJdNm8mPvzFG1ylQLv/79JdbF 3z3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tn1IAsmy2xMwVmIY5ExFd8YqP/tEAFXEejq2lXzTAqo=; b=Df/n6arcVIZHLBnxpaB6mNSKkOW0BSMSVunUXbPRNTY3QolynQASboPD/R5XLrc2yF SBRj2WsvGP5IgIj3V2xCRPwnTI2v+h8vNROUk0nGhrf2kngjSdIDB/50mKbY1MDeXmfR PvhZCb3Z+zliHNgNY2oaxVeJCXlgaUotfFAY0dS57wdk+r+xF3kfZVhYPYoKTgkuEVMd uOLdxpXikxvYkFM3Bmy828abyAArNQ5LoRxsXMJlurly8mtkucfTkYEKcYY30od4Ydoy YiozqWNUo7cyVWGRMb2QKvxApOF0ZH4+r83r5dnOo7IDe66nh1yU8QAJyjTGZko9oZid sLoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322WJtRW6cEmZeCz+FjEgk4pH1vEJgvnE4shZma3ZFMUJLZ0h8q mt9iTqAMzfEZKgR0vzoRJEaf2a+9TggfRg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPrErJiwZg1XNcOHebkOsfp8gSp89IzZS2rGM9x7lALlKCY3qiKcxjLt3REcHPWeCyhBAuew== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6ac1:b0:149:7087:7b8a with SMTP id i1-20020a1709026ac100b0014970877b8amr53723233plt.174.1641499715462; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u11sm3593880pfi.10.2022.01.06.12.08.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:08:34 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7dc741bb-728e-c53b-2987-39318df38842@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:08:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:08:42 -0000 On 07-Jan-22 06:12, Salz, Rich wrote: > *>* I suspect others may feel differently in that they don't want this = to be subject to changed IETF policies. >=20 > I=E2=80=99d really like to hear from people who feel this as to what an= d why. I was just assuming this is like a WG in its behavior, and perhaps=20 my assumption is completely wrong. No, but it *isn't* an IETF WG and should be able to opt out of an IETF ru= le change that isn't appropriate. Analogy: each RFC stream decides its own I= PR policy; the fact that streams have so far decided to follow the IETF poli= cy doesn't change that independence. Perhaps we can cover this with a blanket rule that the RSWG follows IETF = rules and practices except when it doesn't. Only partly ;-). Brian From nobody Thu Jan 6 12:52:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E82B13A1655 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:52:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pPcDNhzAafNk for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF1D63A1653 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n5ZkX-000E1l-Qf; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:52:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:52:36 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7dc741bb-728e-c53b-2987-39318df38842@gmail.com> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> <7dc741bb-728e-c53b-2987-39318df38842@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:52:49 -0000 --On Friday, January 7, 2022 09:08 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 07-Jan-22 06:12, Salz, Rich wrote: >> *>* I suspect others may feel differently in that they don't >> want this to be subject to changed IETF policies. >> >> I'd really like to hear from people who feel this as to >> what and why. I was just assuming this is like a WG in its >> behavior, and perhaps my assumption is completely wrong. > No, but it *isn't* an IETF WG and should be able to opt out of > an IETF rule change that isn't appropriate. Analogy: each RFC > stream decides its own IPR policy; the fact that streams have > so far decided to follow the IETF policy doesn't change that > independence. Right. But those streams have each made affirmative decisions to do so, more or less on a policy by policy basis. > Perhaps we can cover this with a blanket rule that the RSWG > follows IETF rules and practices except when it doesn't. Only > partly ;-). Thanks for the smiley. Just to illustrate why that is important, ask yourself three questions: (i) Would the RSWG be required to follow IETF rules even when the IETF doesn't? Take that bit about documents being ready well before meetings as an example. Or, to ask that question differently, when IETF rules and practices are inconsistent, which one should the RSWG be required to follow? (ii) Are you prepared to precisely define, for the purposes of this document and/or as something we should insist on having in 2026bis (which would then be a normative reference, possibly freezing the publication of this document until severe climate change and cooling reached a particular legendary warm place) the boundaries of "IETF rules and practices"? Presumably, process BCPs count. How about IESG statements? Practices that have often been followed in the absence of such statements? And, before you answer that question, remember that actual practices in WGs differ by Area. (iii) If the IESG issues a new statement that replaces an older one and changes some practice from what it was before (or 2418bis is published), does that automatically change the practices of the RSWG, or that whatever this document says be about rules and procedures applies as of the time of publication, with changes requiring RSWG action and/or RSAB ratification? So, yes, ":-)" Again, what we need in terms of procedural rules isn't hard and we have already given the RSWG/RSAB some discretion to tune them as needed. Even if only for the pragmatic reason that any of the above questions opens a can of worms, let's just write the rules we need down. If anyone thinks it would be useful and there are not really strong objections, we could note their similarity to those of IETF WGs. But then lets move on. best, john From nobody Thu Jan 6 13:09:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0913A1691 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:09:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1SXlSIWMcyMb for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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6hLUZcCEOYcqzmC/2R5nICGP2Q+OHoEYxT69mL6s= Message-ID: <68cd6e6f-b0bd-a980-f38d-65dce206d23b@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 22:09:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> <7dc741bb-728e-c53b-2987-39318df38842@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------JK0ubXZHOqVFH0yDlUFx0XVB" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 21:09:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME 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fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:45:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:45:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 23:45:59 -0000 On 1/6/22 12:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 06-Jan-22 14:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> The draft says: >> >>      The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including >>      minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. >> >> Brian Carpenter noted: "As far as I can see, we don't specify whether >> the RSAB's mailing list does, or doesn't, have a public archive." >> >> Do folks have opinions on this point? >> >> (Without my editor hat on, I think it's preferable to make the list >> archives public, in the interest of transparency.) > > So, ignoring the copy-by-value vs copy-by-reference detail, my > opinion is that RSAB email should be in a public archive *except* > for anything that amounts to an "executive session" discussion. Proposed text: ### The RSAB is expected to operate via an email discussion list, in-person meetings, teleconferencing systems, and any additional tooling it deems necessary. The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the exception of topics that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel matters). Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about topics discussed under executive session, but should note that such topics were discussed. ### Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 15:47:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851163A0A7D for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:46:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8CcEo6_7iE2I for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from JPN01-TYC-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-tycjpn01on2072f.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f403:7010::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 163713A0A88 for ; 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I was just assuming this is like a WG in its behavior, and perhaps my assumption is completely wrong. I think in this case (advance notice), copy by reference is fine. In others (RSAB mailing list, for example), copy by value may be better, because as already said, the RSAB more like the Nomcom or so than an average IETF WG. Regards, Martin. From nobody Thu Jan 6 15:48:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862CA3A0A10 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:48:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=lhn/QvEf; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=AWRM35nt Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAfPqpqv_uBT for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A3A23A05AA for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C2B5C0138; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 18:48:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=o KrpKR0pM8cn5cASw6Tq2fvFuNsC6Z+LMnOOXiGoG5A=; b=lhn/QvEfRmMQOXTyT 1Aq7BVAk7K6IeurnfpX4WsJ1hxXZnteZDZDXOLSsyC4Ah+7zNJwfVu1RRzVTNQqw sZQJSyGDvLsWqSz4IWBZse/D0okrBz+HFMET55xoQYk7PvzHw+CNqUZVpAsjeRZU uYJMLZ++YbumGgOhauGjEgQF52nD0ihGhwZ6RO6HmVXe5XZPefIIUNy+lqYMGsJ9 VOAAeEzxwRFTVWBa0ZvUiRIIryiRPEkGn4tolpuWKJF07GY2jclzLPSaQyHCfrl+ uaJTbmFRyx0/gaQjZzQDLmXg6NL2Mf1RsX6+Lo+1P6fbLPwr+3fcAFLuCaY6O8WP V6kuQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=oKrpKR0pM8cn5cASw6Tq2fvFuNsC6Z+LMnOOXiGoG 5A=; b=AWRM35ntUYVttszkdBiP1+ikf1t9IYicHdqloe/ks6170N/5B+rSmAIpX 3+a0qcI9LS3HffjBF+xzYkcEyHbeCQoRroV9aFXwTAbrSoZ1E70J7WQ2cOel4Vkn fic/JOYal3k6IC/WyqjKGLoxxBqyaa5zeBtD33MA2Olratg5xOTX0dGn6NuxXD9T BVMCVNm4sdjc3g4qYGFK2XMwiDoIjPg4jVz68Pi+qBevOugW8bXEmxY1RhaiI55l X/ruLv5i/9DwvQxqdEqJmyuVHUrazHiF4QzkelRh7++AVF6ekUmVCecau9hjjOZ/ zgkuDHvOwEaQ6AvXp76y1LLVRUOLg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegtddguddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:48:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:48:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> <0586FE1B-18F1-41C1-9F8E-D4BD42D3814B@mnot.net> <0ea56594-2a74-4dc2-ff42-bf73acca00be@lear.ch> <650d784a-a7e8-e27b-e8ea-1f4cf610cd8a@nthpermutation.com> <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> <9c12a079-5b4a-5b1a-6fd0-f01c6ed05b94@lear.ch> <6680efce-880a-1c58-518b-3b4e78a30360@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <6680efce-880a-1c58-518b-3b4e78a30360@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 134: Re: How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 23:48:34 -0000 On 1/6/22 1:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 07-Jan-22 01:30, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> It may be helpful to restate Brian's text as follows: >> >>> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced >>> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >>> agreement of the IAB and the IESG, and with no objections from the LLC >>> with regard to their ability to implement any proposed change. > > Yes, that scopes it correctly. For example, if a change unintentionally > required the LLC or its contractor to break GDPR or any other law, or > overspend its budget, this would catch it. WFM. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 16:06:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5A13A0ABD for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:06:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=c06jKMp4; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=l/4QHEV2 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTH55GXWetaR for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E14E3A0ABC for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA625C019F; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:06:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:from:to:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=9 R25xTjaFLO9VmfvPaieyPrD5aWWRupkatfVIHB7iBk=; b=c06jKMp4QhIrhGtGv 9CZHeyMfhg8gwrgsgcuVR8qj64ewzYWMaFScq/Xucav3SuOq7xltIY5lX0ZzHZSL YHTYELaJyXkfKbVjtQTZCclVd1JnLzrcfmbwioRT06gefYpN0k5qbP90gjmsJ7MM iUZB5rbD9BH6zpnm4xp8Ih8ZXnRIX4BdfI33zvr94T6SUzMi0BNThh40xbnvysBl ZwzxdsKtt7oWd1akBl06roPeWz8HV21umZm/K/EKwvGkq1V32DEdieJ3WOmmip8B bnEqNPy+rOtf+6C+ztO2ymORBQEX49jxHgjHTpSqHvG1j9C0Ufd6g71dWkuSG6Lt Yj1Nw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=9R25xTjaFLO9VmfvPaieyPrD5aWWRupkatfVIHB7i Bk=; b=l/4QHEV2jHbqcjVGhq1/nhsZ4bq05GgiShCsbB033DCnZF+VVk60dHn38 cEEjPcfumZCGQlJAk2T8q8MJnfsAMNKm6cWMyc+4YUbygukQQcmXsHLSWTkH4/U2 leh3dz2+WXwokwxKfvoUx08EQSJIab1QMrEoTo6giPpzRXNODKJ0ulbbcHaRg6Cl KkPr/i2ru3pS2iioEHGbhORQaywujT7QPMsZ/OzkjBAaaUiPX+fTrp1C/9QKlC4J Z3lw1V7ENMCTzt+Qdtujw/WBXjTG8vxqIUsVt6cFZIcwLZYay2gDJzR12LKvvlyz prDey9VQzGch+yFE92+cDqt5xDI+A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegtddgudegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffhvfhfjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfffgvefgveejieetffeuhfekteeitdduhfevvdehhedtleef udetteegleejgeeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:06:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:06:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> <0586FE1B-18F1-41C1-9F8E-D4BD42D3814B@mnot.net> <0ea56594-2a74-4dc2-ff42-bf73acca00be@lear.ch> <650d784a-a7e8-e27b-e8ea-1f4cf610cd8a@nthpermutation.com> <18340aca-5c46-477c-d6da-f764a9033a6a@gmail.com> <9c12a079-5b4a-5b1a-6fd0-f01c6ed05b94@lear.ch> <6680efce-880a-1c58-518b-3b4e78a30360@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 134: Re: How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 00:06:30 -0000 On 1/6/22 4:48 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/6/22 1:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 07-Jan-22 01:30, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >>> It may be helpful to restate Brian's text as follows: >>> >>>> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced >>>> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >>>> agreement of the IAB and the IESG, and with no objections from the LLC >>>> with regard to their ability to implement any proposed change. >> >> Yes, that scopes it correctly. For example, if a change unintentionally >> required the LLC or its contractor to break GDPR or any other law, or >> overspend its budget, this would catch it. > > WFM. Here's the same concept with some slight editorial tweaks: Updates, amendments, and refinements to this document can be produced using the process documented herein, but shall be operative only after (a) obtaining the agreement of the IAB and the IESG, and (b) ensuring that the IETF LLC has no objections regarding its ability to implement any proposed changes. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 16:23:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4DF3A0B3F for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:23:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=utAXuW54; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=CZ1L9jVx Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C_iSqgTlZHJY for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9F6C3A0A9A for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267FC5C01DA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:23:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=b s3WtitBoAP0ubTY/kPg5sNGYdpa7ljy80frPZvpgwo=; b=utAXuW54++WTxici+ qnLC9M1qR3KhQc0gXiG4mnKtIdXJsWpHBUocgIQlDcGzDashn2JC+RNPmF4+l0Yx fHpQCz4tOhJGWFPFIEmf2BoBTc/8Biig6/w6AaDtF0Aj5DUh2BOhWKvL3h3GRuUT uxuifcmdAdLq68m5r5Gr39UsOnl8F8jyVPv5iQBhPE8vRgCzRhGTvTKfMGWPvtqp Ox5V4uT3nEcgS1sjb8fF4akibrinnH+WBqTqU2l1Kl+mq4qkzPPOAzedVE6HXGZf i2ftHt9xjnImlBRqgh0EpRc1d7L5ZR956Q9mg/BX/+jdWmPavscfEnAHqyM/fK2M /Z5+A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=bs3WtitBoAP0ubTY/kPg5sNGYdpa7ljy80frPZvpg wo=; b=CZ1L9jVxBIwRyQKGcISXozYXLymcId2mEXPVyvm96AnxCNndAQaPDYafA 8URrnybjxyD+uO+x+K9yAVYaIV0cvaNWhnvDNbSuUIrEVdq8rz328xN30M6MKVTa 2ZhjCUFNSDhucEeMJNeOwmx8C7w65byX2AzUoULfUOCs7l8UsFkuE/BBuw6fhUYX YgdmiZywj7NSEOIIsSa6Z5qSsgLS/vGGWAq6GD3Y61LO42a9YVfzmZ3Ern3tIFW1 FWlQcLNDZINdXMQXx2e/dh3CnMWTd1nvQwM3qPDV6cqpJuyzk0mkg8CodOOaoLUN QH7EdZb9E2Hw9qs+o1uzG7hzL8uYg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegtddgudekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevueefjeduieeiie dtiedvfeefkeejvefgleeghfdvvddvffevgeffgedtudegteenucffohhmrghinhepihgv thhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:23:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:23:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> <0c4a8b22-9226-5539-9af4-f260e124b684@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <0c4a8b22-9226-5539-9af4-f260e124b684@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 00:23:19 -0000 On 1/6/22 4:46 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > On 2022-01-07 02:12, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> I suspect others may feel differently in that they don't want this to >>> be subject to changed IETF policies. >> >> I’d really like to hear from people who feel this as to what and why. >> I was just assuming this is like a WG in its behavior, and perhaps my >> assumption is completely wrong. > > I think in this case (advance notice), copy by reference is fine. In > others (RSAB mailing list, for example), copy by value may be better, > because as already said, the RSAB more like the Nomcom or so than an > average IETF WG. If I'm reading the room correctly, we could say something like this: ### The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, which should be announced with sufficient notice to enable broad participation; the [IESG Guidance on Face-to-Face and Virtual Interim Meetings](https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/) provides a reasonable baseline. ### Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 16:36:05 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FFF3A0BA3 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:36:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:35:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <73eeadd1-9cff-2df8-fe2b-664580acdfad@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:35:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RSWG meetings and IETF meetings (Re: Issue 144) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 00:36:04 -0000 On 1/5/22 8:43 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:53 +0900 "Martin J. Dürst" > wrote: > >> So far, this discussion seems to be going in the right >> direction. >> >> However, I think it's unrealistic to imagine in-person RSWG >> meetings independent of IETF meetings; the travel costs would >> just not make sense. I think we should say so explicitly. That >> would also raise the question of funding, but we could >> probably assume that all the participants in the RSWG would >> attend some other WG or RG anyway. > > Martin, > > Yes, but... > > If we are going to go in this direction and spell that out, we > also need to be clear that RSWG f2f meetings, with IETF or not, > must have provision for effective offsite/online participation. > In addition to all the usual reasons (with or without the > pandemic), we want to be very sure that we don't exclude the > non-IETF users/ customers for the RFC Series from the RSWG. > While my expectations that many (or even a few) of them will > actively participate are very low, doing anything that blocks > their participation would be really bad news. Something like this: The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings, which should be announced with sufficient notice to enable broad participation; the [IESG Guidance on Face-to-Face and Virtual Interim Meetings](https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/) provides a reasonable baseline. In-person meetings should include provision for effective online participation for those unable to to attend in person. From nobody Thu Jan 6 16:43:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683133A0BE6 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:43:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=oWLLtQL9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XwyGZezs Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11VGMpyZdNNY for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BE8E3A0BE3 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D895C01A4; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:43:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=7 Pppf/yRv8CAUh//W3fCIwNmREjTlhuGQU2v2MafmwE=; b=oWLLtQL9bZQzqcaEW PYnyM1yU1iLkuKdLHAZSQRjkW3gtNhPolPQ+zGb7V533J9BpPokzdcmNScVg5IW9 eA2EeSHI6rc4adlhRwCnfhDik3Wsht0Vy0UI9AMBxFMzSo9drBi1qwpjcEOd2Exj bCNBhcXIaMEs//CZgBO60z/QH20DpJziciyR1yVQVQMz89lFMf6kDqoWiYWh/QnP NYCAoUelGprBS8nL+/3TiIQ6To0FDyrV+ntuQexZ6SP7v163TdKIX+PkmaOIVXQv VmpMaWLevgYNBFps8ImBtoHlfx5uM7jJAHItSBufV9nnBXTxyPfUiT5VuvK+pzaB G7vzg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=7Pppf/yRv8CAUh//W3fCIwNmREjTlhuGQU2v2Mafm wE=; b=XwyGZezsVKW12O6hcOWDLcr0pkaAF7cHvqyaryk23Are/a5uNHh4U3mud wbkHBW5JSkZsaESaTYJVEKFf3mfUdqItZA+jf5Q4N2hTxgr3Wu/+mm7k6mgQpOlL tZD0HX8ycrzbGnFO9gBb5GgS8Vc2W8RnuwEn1h3uedY35WpqnS5g11tc9WzX7VtF Bf2YEfDavu44UObsyo6taU1tJ1yrHZYq2SAl7N8du0Gp1cib7C3c1Br6rM3AA4gn Ec9wVVQ9pFY2Jz7PEn/z3Xa2yse6hGP8PxSOKYm8AqQ4ahoUlIty+7Q19aazfKOs gxEbNtDOyoWl1t5ZYk+EsOUj1jl6Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegtddgvddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveeufeejudeiieeitdeivdeffeekjeevgfelgefhvddvvdff veegffegtddugeetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvght vghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:43:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <95292ae2-e5ad-675b-97cd-ef29028bf23c@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:43:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , Jay Daley , John C Klensin Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 00:43:13 -0000 On 1/3/22 7:51 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Mirja, > > On 03.01.22 14:43, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> This is the text in draft: >> >> "The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from >> the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to >> the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.” > >> [snip] > >> However, I would also like to note that th text says the LCC Board >> forms the selection committee and not the ED. While these are >> internals on how the LLC Board manages itself, I would assume that’s >> rather a job for the LLC Board chair with approval of the whole >> (community-selected) board than the ED. This issue was discussed and >> confirmed (changing responsibility from the ED to the whole LLC board >> in GitHub issue #40). > > Yes, that was indeed Issue 40 which you opened in April and was closed > after we discussed it in detail and came to a conclusion in July. > However, by design, the text above does *not* refer to the board, but > rather to the LLC.  The sentiment that carried the day at the time was > perhaps best summarized by Martin Thomson: > >> Split the difference and say the LLC is responsible, this would likely >> fall to the Executive Director, but no need to explicitly specify that > (See the notes ). > > It's not that the LLC board DOES decide or that the ED decides on the > RSCE position, but rather it is for the the LLC board to decide whether > to delegate that decision. > > What I am drawing from all of this, by the way, is the importance of > closing this document, because people really are losing context of the > decisions that have been made.  The chairs will have more to say on that > shortly. Your document editor has gotten lost in reading this thread. Does someone have proposed text? Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 16:52:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACC33A0C1A for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:52:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzrF0buuGrOr for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B05FB3A09D6 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id f5so4026717pgk.12 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:51:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dfEUfy14h4FsbQM4Z9u1waBy4WsGzvDFWOptyPxSuN0=; b=plk0SWZGzQ7MHiajaH07nQvmJCUA8jy4Ayl1px9CKNPzjPuxWJ6vmtdO2ZHm3rTG17 1uLVUpeKXfeBar/C1+x4PXMI3eHLIrvulDy5z3M3+wJSj5lofxa/vTQRtdPqtutv4kXV FprTtCMdXlOQZ4anDa7YhatQ+QAcAyKE8+AVK1hSFglkD6LiX7uXDPpzRyD7cV5LEC9o L+XWOUkSMu5Gr0BiDjiQLJqQvKIrBuC4I0+bwNAa78PCyvhNFRDTh3uHRPe0XvtMSV6q P6aiLWn0UYU39vTcoGIlFGV96gc9TKKhb+7Q4S/iV1aOvxpUieL0zgELkR/e2MVe3lku frUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dfEUfy14h4FsbQM4Z9u1waBy4WsGzvDFWOptyPxSuN0=; b=ee/1FTla+v/AxFoTplOutgve8VyXAFkHCT9EeHpnDg9GZZI4U1n6sxrH20+qNsD5O5 lxTwxpxacmmJnI1Y5cqms95n2QNEObqsrM1G13Ekp8m4sYuUSPxNnxUhPxKmjTEBaOHG QvJe1XZ36jMMwAC8aTn1qgoq66ITk4cF2f1oK+K23WZ3NM0Q437fYrJQhNbF4B1/LumQ ehq2ruZDh92KUHCViWtdZ34VfIofa1FCVU10jeKGISZD8AXrnB0Tt8uv4qIYnOpHvgEK i6UQvKUQLfOg7CCDPRVpvOATMQkKDecIK/cvg1U5VMriqYUvlGSwt9nzlzf8SUZleK1E Sz8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HA6569iPQsW62yMzys7rHRtYMurPPwroI/5RAnxIW/up5VvOJ rdH1TlzZjXWtggYIzLkzMMKntX9Vf0kvLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxC4YlqVAUuy4uJq0aCy1KiJ3DNMQAVYG3HYo/tLz/2F4kBeP6bCyFwuoJii72InSJdcp5TDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7cd0:0:b0:4bc:ecc1:d295 with SMTP id x199-20020a627cd0000000b004bcecc1d295mr6738677pfc.21.1641516717745; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v10sm4041229pjs.8.2022.01.06.16.51.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:51:57 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:51:52 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 00:52:02 -0000 wfm Regards Brian On 07-Jan-22 12:45, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/6/22 12:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 06-Jan-22 14:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> The draft says: >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RSAB shall keep a public record of its = proceedings, including >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 minutes of all meetings and a record of all=20 decisions. >>> >>> Brian Carpenter noted: "As far as I can see, we don't specify whether= >>> the RSAB's mailing list does, or doesn't, have a public archive." >>> >>> Do folks have opinions on this point? >>> >>> (Without my editor hat on, I think it's preferable to make the list >>> archives public, in the interest of transparency.) >> >> So, ignoring the copy-by-value vs copy-by-reference detail, my >> opinion is that RSAB email should be in a public archive *except* >> for anything that amounts to an "executive session" discussion. >=20 > Proposed text: >=20 > ### >=20 > The RSAB is expected to operate via an email discussion list, > in-person meetings, teleconferencing systems, and any additional > tooling it deems necessary. >=20 > The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including > minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Email messages > sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among all members > of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the exception of topics > that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel matters). Similarly, > meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about topics > discussed under executive session, but should note that such topics > were discussed. >=20 > ### >=20 > Peter >=20 From nobody Thu Jan 6 16:54:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1443A0C34 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7yOU07PN6d6 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C51C53A0C29 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id n16so3695385plc.2 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:54:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rCuUepCQjurAYqY2AntHx/yTznY6ID58pTw6InbfPzQ=; b=NxSdp0HPcvreOhpVAsTeVsCSRh5NGXLRtWYEmFinwh2ZWZb835oVRlDEXw/7zPjkbg ewtuRN/J7g+UKZkeM1PgYDGFqJ11pP4+nK7hCNSSBahctydd6qfuU2i7jo/vPG4+3b4p fAB6Y4U7itgMyngtVr6VeDDIBH3LWKp6tlRbSChkxQaXigA4tXtJmgTsjrTuM8mvV2Aj 6yTKFqh1uMnhcV8SpYv9H1VHwQv8UwyKiIXCC0mFLhA6Vbp6Oe/bZZtrJcstnXvuqGwQ xQIji7gQzhJT4zHBZUPhRl6fIvTrGWhRnNPgBaT+9CLeBiEH1bBMk9HhrfEih1EFWuNR fasA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rCuUepCQjurAYqY2AntHx/yTznY6ID58pTw6InbfPzQ=; b=Amc0diLupeb+KPUeJbUMZocs5SUPJS3VqbPBUp0QYr0HLH4pr3ae3KHZW01x3bA94W EEN64GMKz5yDzOge4M22H605SsN3TH0Sq8d84igbqYnUzhE92PKQJ04Gw/0Tk80SwZ4u JOAPE247tcjokQokU4zXLuGcPjT+YY3WewpkgsHn/v69IiMXLQQzMtOVTRYptNdep2Xy PJkBs01sV1kOkzDCrazqaHaACt/9miJKcxxW2G+1uHWnylv2QR+W0ut6fjqKVDiyolNW yI/UZpa/p8PxIDAtnGYCdfH8d8FvfSElVEMAuS9HaJfTaV+suY/n17jxpvti6im6tnFX Wj8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533XXUnnjQ6O1MbQ1OhICYc5erfJ2IwjPn6dsFddTwOyF5n9wCLC HnyYt3P22Cuv9gO2u+wzzYIeNJVscv8R3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiiYh7QhRGRBzJAQrwQHY/oQ+TyHHUbHmDk8b8JDuPxfStAV9eF1ltDvqzuxdKi5rbKasvRg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7a88:: with SMTP id q8mr7394108pjf.90.1641516854793; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a16sm3748487pfv.160.2022.01.06.16.54.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 16:54:14 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8F21BC41-404A-4007-8436-AE2506C6A0A2@akamai.com> <0c4a8b22-9226-5539-9af4-f260e124b684@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:54:10 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 00:54:21 -0000 Also wfm Regards Brian On 07-Jan-22 13:23, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/6/22 4:46 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> On 2022-01-07 02:12, Salz, Rich wrote: >>>> I suspect others may feel differently in that they don't want this t= o >>>> be subject to changed IETF policies. >>> >>> I=E2=80=99d really like to hear from people who feel this as to what = and why. >>> I was just assuming this is like a WG in its behavior, and perhaps my= >>> assumption is completely wrong. >> >> I think in this case (advance notice), copy by reference is fine. In >> others (RSAB mailing list, for example), copy by value may be better, >> because as already said, the RSAB more=C2=A0like=C2=A0the=C2=A0Nomcom = or=C2=A0so than=C2=A0an >> average=C2=A0IETF=C2=A0WG. >=20 > If I'm reading the room correctly, we could say something like this: >=20 > ### >=20 > The RSWG is also empowered to hold in-person or online meetings, > which should be announced with sufficient notice to enable broad > participation; the [IESG Guidance on Face-to-Face and Virtual Interim > Meetings](https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-mee= tings-guidance-2016-01-16/) > provides a reasonable baseline. >=20 > ### >=20 > Peter >=20 From nobody Thu Jan 6 17:54:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD713A0D67 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:54:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:54:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:54:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <8C799458-F53B-45F1-8AF1-278BE5E5B1C1@sobco.com> <39A3792DA76E797670E06BA0@PSB> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <39A3792DA76E797670E06BA0@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 144 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 01:54:14 -0000 On 1/5/22 6:44 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 19:43 -0500 Scott Bradner > wrote: > >> Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> However, I don't see exactly where it talks about advance >> notification for "other working group meetings". I must be >> missing something obvious. >> >> 7.1. Session documents >> >> All relevant documents to be discussed at a session should >> be published and available as Internet-Drafts at least two >> weeks before a session starts. Any document which does not >> meet this publication deadline can only be discussed in a >> working group session with the specific approval of the >> working group chair(s). Since it is important that working >> group members have adequate time to review all documents, >> granting such an exception should only be done under >> unusual conditions. The final session agenda should be posted >> to the working group mailing list at least two weeks before >> the session and sent at that time to agenda@ietf.org for >> publication on the IETF web site. > > Of course, in addition to whatever properties it might have as a > model of clarity, the rules of that section may be a rather good > candidate for the set of IETF procedural requirements that are > most often completely ignored, and ignored without any > consequences. :-(. In particular, if this group were required > to follow IETF WG rules, IIR that document availability rule has > been violated more than once. > > In any event, the RSWG is _not_ an IETF working group, so it is > not clear how applicable RFC 2418 is. In particular, a decent > protocol or procedure lawyer could easily claim that anything > the RSWG does is "consistent with RFC 2418". Because 2418 says > nothing about non-IETF WGs, anything such a body is consistent > with its specifications. Add to that the observation that, if > we are lucky, 2418bis might actually be approved reasonably > early in the RSWG's life, requiring that provisions of this > document and the normative reference be noticed and updated, and > I'd argue for making this provision self-contained. That might > be just Peter's text at the beginning of this thread plus > > * A statement about how far in advance any relevant documents > are supposed to be available. I think this is covered by a pointer to the IESG guidelines. > * A statement that notification should be to all of the lists > used by the RSAB/RSWG for other purposes. I wonder if such notifications could become rather spammy, if for instance the RSWG meets three times a year. > That list should > either be enumerated in the document or, better, the RSAB > charged with maintaining such a list and keeping it publicly > available. The latter seems good. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 18:00:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C973A0D79 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:00:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=E9mXL3eX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=aHGHpuSk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1hhO5Bgpo4DH for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A47C83A0D76 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB7F5C01C0; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 21:00:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=D dz301MU14sfR2hQcpOST5plwoI/dvAoeV9V+X2SmBk=; b=E9mXL3eXD2BTWI0ao O6imXS5vEM2Pfw9EfxjYSha3kqma34ZZtVZqTS/8/Dcfa4Oo6Fkzg7We1nVkTG3o EFFgz/VtBhnfqXd3eVDJT5MN/QPBo5yfUnLn3ySNsOkgAxGhRhwO3liCFvUWI30Q QoyKJKzWUHzreF8JjiCbzYqILg/NgYrSdEbdIKffzKzR1JtY9wO1GTub6jb3ksix DNEzMJ/9S/+nkZuJ9drRYlHHMjFrpwyr3EIs+RMeeXz1zNtdMjQmVHaaMcfBCwrM MCmrCqI4ov+C9EVUQr9uU81GeCoBK25i0ixXhcailzona9PrluciSKlYjg5Le6No qarPw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Ddz301MU14sfR2hQcpOST5plwoI/dvAoeV9V+X2Sm Bk=; b=aHGHpuSk/DCd2MpFxb2aWsZcca9/l885l7Q/oNLCWdLQeveLR9qhWIbhm me+1AZW21qI7Ad8o/EGzfQKfKhtvxaJIozGoobOV9opSEfQ+49E7oxSMzdRcUv39 KmI9YhBKK9UplV3UxCdcdXwp6N/hDbXHD+0cEFiNvx0KEP+UHKffclzQeA/gSrme Yhy888653gEvirpKwwGjlemsMGnWAUekJgChDmFAXOjHOXMoy6s6w4CGs/vSqPY4 74CFAFpGsv9DlMZOkOBsx8EW+CEzkQXq7YLxF+QguRDdXwBKRMy1CCP60vcJ2+Tj xSVxki32fUlzlb6Dv8581BXrmyImg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegtddgfeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:00:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <84c39595-8bde-d0c4-8513-5813075a84cf@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:00:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <18d1c2c5-cb1d-58d3-d566-0b5f55f7d28f@nthpermutation.com> <211d997a-ea0d-f56c-7329-d0cbc73638a4@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Comments on -07 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 02:00:38 -0000 On 12/23/21 10:26 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 12/23/2021 2:33 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> On this: >> >> On 22.12.21 21:56, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> S 4.3 bullet 16 - Is this needed if the RPC is an ex officio member >>> of the RSAB? >> >> For context the bullet says the following: >> >> 16. Liaising with stream approving bodies and other representatives >> of the streams as needed. >> >> N.B., “as needed.” >> >>> Shouldn't that be where this interaction mostly happens?  "Stream >>> approving bodies" is different than "stream manager" and not having a >>> single POC might be problematic.  (Sorry - I see this change was made >>> -05 to -06, but there are a number of places in this document where >>> telling the RPC to talk to an organization is just a bad idea - this >>> comes under the heading of unintended consequences). >> >> One example of when it would be necessary for the RPC and a stream to >> communicate would be in relation to boiler plate questions or >> changes.  Another case might involve meta-information such as >> obsoleting/updating of RFCs.  According to the draft, these sorts of >> things would not be appropriate for the RSAB, but for the individual >> streams themselves. >> >> Eliot >> > I think that's a fair interpretation, but it used to be "stream > managers" and AFAICT, that was changed to "stream approving bodies" > primarily to eliminate the "stream manager" term, rather than to address > the point you made and hence leading to the question. It also is weird > when reading it for the ISE. > > How about "Liaising with other representatives of the streams as needed" > which says that just not the RSAB member of a stream might be important? I think this is an improvement. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 18:08:29 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EFA3A0DA2 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:08:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=DUBwCGjZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YXVPQPun Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkEBFc4wlSaM for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9C783A0D9F for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD74C5C01D9; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 21:08:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=Y UQYtvQY+LUcRvRHzUYDkSDrB8UnGEORnIo0t2o314s=; b=DUBwCGjZCKBLyi387 7smMPoIwjBaFTFLJY6cDDHyDb6Wg0X7sxmliiJMoVvc3QrH62hTj62S6MWyB+PBz Z1BuKRa9p7A4jVVWE1wfq6TFF9RnK7Np23e0XYBq6CHOICNwYPJxaYHSlMYA8X8U wkJxKDsEj5cFpn5uyTjt2UL5qO+iWK3pV+B2kHUWPbhb1rzsibRnFaDN3js9td+Y 0zUEj8X4C0XcehpuP9CTuA7ic+AK+zNkiYdOjPsfWKI3cNrThexzj6TsDmIVUsjZ +oOyiAw2QJRDXTBZZsum193LOO33Qm8j5k9/NzjuXrhJheM8izxA5T9a6N0ILzVh U3Kow== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=YUQYtvQY+LUcRvRHzUYDkSDrB8UnGEORnIo0t2o31 4s=; b=YXVPQPun2OiMzg+tcyU9b+E5xUSAUe0n187xTXDgL2HSf4V+XHDkxVziX Y1HF0T+NZsABnxkSUM+bmKIrIwEjGO9rlzsLqpk+gOvxS/f5HJfarZJ14xoyfvGZ 0KCQBgscLBtOsuyP2+mTrF1ZOIUqtl0tfQxAFDDJXCBlgpgXnd1+jLmyq47UhL3G kGqROF4S4OMqXz9xI58BkDefVRijVuStrA8DiE0TlWHktZjcRC7kf+In33HZB8gX BdVGwTkv2slbeaXkKuh8nKvedqiIohBTDeQ+2HHzvWDYV0A72aJ/Sl1e/daiRoyq sJoSSDOAhrUYM3RdM0DZfPXZnX2kw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegtddgfeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:08:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:08:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <3983646a-f1bc-d094-0319-a32dd61e1bda@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 145 Re: WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 02:08:28 -0000 On 1/5/22 10:45 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:58 AM Eliot Lear > wrote: > > Hi EKR > > On 04.01.22 01:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> One way to look at it is that the community call for comment >> could >> surface issues that meet the first two criteria, and if so >> it's the >> responsibility of the RSAB to bring those back to the review >> process by >> raising CONCERN positions. This way, arbitrary community >> concerns that >> don't meet the first two criteria can't get special consideration. >> >> >> Yes, that would work for me. >> > So long as it is clear that feedback received as part of a "broader > review" may shift consensus, > > > Absolutely that should be clear. I suggest that we fold these considerations into the CFC section, as follows: ### The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if the issues either represent a serious problem for one or more of the individual streams or would cause serious harm to the overall Series) lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. ### Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 18:10:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC463A0DD1 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:10:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <48449fa5-16f1-e8e6-c498-54d3506d93a7@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:10:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <06414ab1-c53f-e542-52ff-800b99c23ef1@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 147 [WGLC Review of the draft] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 02:10:43 -0000 On 1/3/22 7:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 5:26 PM Brian E Carpenter > > wrote: > > On 04-Jan-22 13:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On one point only: > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter Saint-Andre > > >> wrote: > > > >     On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > ... > >      > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, > >      > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that formally > >      > happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? > >      > Do these records need to be public? > >      > > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 > > > > >      > > > >> > > > >     It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be > public. It > >     might be acceptable that records are kept and available on > request if > >     needed (e.g., in case of an appeal). > > > > > > I think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all? > > > I can't answer that. But I suspect that there might, rarely, be matters > that would be considered private, especially for the Independent Stream > if publishing a proprietary spec. So any policy for making the records > public would need to allow privacy exceptions. > > > Agreed. I don't actually have strong feelings about any of this and would > be fine if we struck this text. I'm just trying to review it from the > perspective > of "does this say what we want" and "can it be executed"? Before we settle this issue, I'd like to hear from Jay (who is on vacation) or RPC folks. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 18:15:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74653A0DF1 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:15:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=b/etz8uv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=LWrmo1dD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2yOZCpopDLoW for ; 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:15:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:15:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 02:15:38 -0000 On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear > wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a > point on which I suspect the group agrees. > > On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >> It wouldn't work for me. >> >> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - >> is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of >> the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but >> then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well >> so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? >> >> I would hope not. >> > Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > > OLD: > >> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the >> community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... > > NEW: > >> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during the >> community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... > > Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment > based on revisions, just to be certain. > > Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being > consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN > reasons. IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. 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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:24:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:24:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 02:24:42 -0000 On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear > > wrote: >> >>     Hi Mike, >> >>     Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a >>     point on which I suspect the group agrees. >> >>     On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> >>>     It wouldn't work for me. >>> >>>     What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - >>>     is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of >>>     the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but >>>     then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well >>>     so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? >>> >>>     I would hope not. >>> >>     Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? >> >>     OLD: >> >>>         8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>> during the >>>             community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... >> >>     NEW: >> >>>         8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received during >>> the >>>            community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and that >>> ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... >> >>     Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment >>     based on revisions, just to be certain. >> >> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being >> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN >> reasons. > > IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. Here is proposed text: ### There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of CONCERN: * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the individual streams. * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and viability of the Series. * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to advance the proposal. ### Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: ### The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. ### Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 18:54:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF753A10EB for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:54:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-ah_jgq_omY for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F0BF3A10E9 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4JVSVg66DSz1pLsJ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:54:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1641524075; bh=UsEaZMXW1NTZEE08OhMQ508e/820WieddcwZGLyakGo=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=JSiKqgS8vkHL77GjWzJ1rKmfTOoMTjFWsOXg822jmW8zPu4J7M6uPpybvQ6Id8Axh y/RkwkRXRhidnnPIH2qtu9p2nWYC/PvBqeUFTgz1dSM74rJcThUBnO5Gg+3afKfZyW QlRa4R3u/w0G8oC8Zocpy75pqyfQ15pCCBya5akk= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JVSVd64XMz1ntTm; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:54:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38487567-e6a7-8649-08a0-5174f53b7a9c@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:54:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 02:54:41 -0000 Thank you Peter. This looks to me like good text and a useful improvement. Yours, Joel On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear >> > wrote: >>> >>>     Hi Mike, >>> >>>     Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a >>>     point on which I suspect the group agrees. >>> >>>     On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>> >>>>     It wouldn't work for me. >>>> >>>>     What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - >>>>     is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of >>>>     the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but >>>>     then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well >>>>     so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? >>>> >>>>     I would hope not. >>>> >>>     Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? >>> >>>     OLD: >>> >>>>         8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>>> during the >>>>             community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... >>> >>>     NEW: >>> >>>>         8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>>> during the >>>>            community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and >>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... >>> >>>     Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for comment >>>     based on revisions, just to be certain. >>> >>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being >>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN >>> reasons. >> >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. > > Here is proposed text: > > ### > > There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of CONCERN: > >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a serious >      problem for one or more of the individual streams. >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm >      to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and >      viability of the Series. >    * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community >      call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to advance >      the proposal. > > ### > > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: > > ### > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during > a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such > comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they > should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if > the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > ### > > Peter > From nobody Thu Jan 6 19:05:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FF03A112A for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:05:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zslR88UTi8bM for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59B343A1124 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id t66so4695752qkb.4 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:05:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TZ1XPZTWa5AkhOBy8QCtENMxQcyz534/JFtfU99eMMI=; b=Ip03GBPp/BWCQ0a6j6P/qf2IkH+UQtcgML7G/HE7n6C16o/yPhko8RjVdd6Jv17SaX Yc/Z04/lQwjaqWXZJyCrPC8A0jsC1l/Un6bqUuXetiZ0uqJPbNVa//TIv/WBz34q9jIT cJOs9lYwdFmDVfFQfzA/Qws+Lmdnibx4sE6lAj+FMTx8+V6DLlrMNznryNhL6/PmDP+k VGDRfesrcofP2OQP/3cL7JbPIt47FIYltxe6qrsWzItt9AYy8+wyHSlNmbosKMWOwFNV fUOQ5MLjZpjM9wdYE58rcY+WmAtj5JZpq+9DAqNXAzR4nzAmdvB5SanD6T9JQKhrFux+ uWAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TZ1XPZTWa5AkhOBy8QCtENMxQcyz534/JFtfU99eMMI=; b=qrwqzS5LhQ2s6OH0cfLOjlCw0YAWsHDs8ZPeGGUv/JekYr8HidK24bHJd/ShMkRsKw Bcs5XWhcpD7Lf8f1zK8Ylms0uFp6yFp9h+qEbmKi4PlNGqKJRythjEtA9D5fhW0/Xuch BkxuvMXQGYKuUbEAEPUv+iNGpBZsN2trVlt4Y+mDoqpvT++NIxUSysBKm0Oal9miHPVI o7PIlkYrw/qA3MyXH3ZzvwzegKT84BTkIK8sO/D4p7aBeSB5NhGhCMfy7La0tICQ++l2 llKIqog4PWZtCejEXt/WGKcPzV2casbVG8ubNdY7g0rU2bgOC8KOlrnoAGXpvnVWtvUS l0Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531r5bXjIQ2kzIGMXIddNSq2kgS/I7QbfJb33IZ1XgXNsJzjp7N9 1qDwu+3SLIWxhRAE9WJbaxbjW2CrNTLyitZskuc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw97hjXtNB6/rssX7FGIcL/CUMu8xgudoE9Sb7Ho2vW3DuxTLsB49Lji1N7drlCkf4IMmC4TA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1a01:: with SMTP id bk1mr43265730qkb.539.1641524712088; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q12sm2861579qtx.16.2022.01.06.19.05.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:05:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 22:05:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 03:05:19 -0000 On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear >> > wrote: >>> >>>     Hi Mike, >>> >>>     Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a >>>     point on which I suspect the group agrees. >>> >>>     On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>> >>>>     It wouldn't work for me. >>>> >>>>     What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - >>>>     is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of >>>>     the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but >>>>     then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well >>>>     so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? >>>> >>>>     I would hope not. >>>> >>>     Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? >>> >>>     OLD: >>> >>>>         8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>>> during the >>>>             community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... >>> >>>     NEW: >>> >>>>         8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>>> during the >>>>            community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and >>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... >>> >>>     Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for >>> comment >>>     based on revisions, just to be certain. >>> >>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being >>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN >>> reasons. >> >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. > > Here is proposed text: > > ### > > There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of > CONCERN: > >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a serious >      problem for one or more of the individual streams. >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm >      to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and >      viability of the Series. >    * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community >      call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to advance >      the proposal. > Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets.   Serious is way too subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to decide whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern.  If you think this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the right one in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to make things work. Add a 4th: * The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the community call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid unraised issues that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication. I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to either a perception of  a lack of community consensus, but an raised and valid issue that  wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason > ### > > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: > > ### > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during > a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such > comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they > should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if > the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. Delete "important" for the same reason.   Also, there's some plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and an and/or issue so: The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a community call for comment.  If [one or more | an ] RSAB member(s) conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be addressed, they should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG.  If they believe an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of {{workflow}}, they should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. *I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this is RSAB to RSWG rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The former is an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion based on RSAB membership.  Yeah, it's a nit. Mike > > ### > > Peter From nobody Thu Jan 6 20:04:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AAAB3A1277 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:04:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fkAo3pQ77KwM for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF0423A1275 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id y11so5637082iod.6 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T11YoIpl1AmbEISg8FFxSpu9FLz3JqMB9FyjFuwWBYs=; b=qRGbck+Tbx77E7fSWN66A9/uK1QBFAGlTc62kn7Xprq99Fv684VprHMSIfSZR+N+XV fcG2Ar3q2c33leA6gxHNJusmtVO/YbO12BSUMCROKNzQXio6oxHRL5bqYJnW8I9u7uZ2 8USWXP3RpLsLu7qe9+n7LPucK9saYRgsJKuzJd5//gB/XXoV0JomT7+eXVAUVdEJWXGZ vDizWwdquOZ69XIjIdysaT6QaqNjulG1HzvihXF/FJGXaaaqezPqEaPJUP0f/kK9goQV JBm6i3zAJ0AXLpZFEa9Sg7s0O+QQH/a3VjNMXYpj2Ta8OGlbDutdl+Z5GHMlnYzSjmY4 xKdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T11YoIpl1AmbEISg8FFxSpu9FLz3JqMB9FyjFuwWBYs=; b=ytDhalGJst2+VHCtZvHmHBhqQc9FD5OyW78fpNuIYlJn4w+xiIuKd2o//zoZgbAAT6 8qRjGyJ1rbY+E3Asv9uDDoIEZWsrP65SQ+W0cSCgI8PbkkwYdElWcSpw1PDeULkJ/zUC dYJD/n9WLZdNA+1qczHfKcm4TISYlOuYeD7T8yFtRF11U8nxEm6T82BcGaHcvPSXXAKI dzJQi6M2eCF9JnHz9a1HZMJN4UUMqkGTeB2DuKlc7neYs6W0fwJG42rb84dMW+UqNjbm CB2XgIqGnaguzmUlDHTq1CX9aAiOrYXd2MuEs6mnlnwyYNOmJiK6M2NtJSYbw0OaY0d0 C/Qg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532LOR6U8QElGHoP5V2pCACAHM9q8OKQrzrp3rOIbPIReoAFMIE+ VCBM6ch3XFaYYhHSI40Zxf2bW8yjVE39t9W4W19jRXaq5fA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxxfe/kkS4J1ouPXas5kFvwdqDnrZl3YRbhJGZFDDhUrylL/g55hfMpXa3WnN29oHCqduVHkSIAPpxjPc0iHCM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3404:: with SMTP id n4mr3104322ioz.148.1641528275306; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:04:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:03:59 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael StJohns Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bd27fe05d4f61561" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 04:04:42 -0000 --000000000000bd27fe05d4f61561 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:05 PM Michael StJohns wrote: > On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Mike, > >>> > >>> Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a > >>> point on which I suspect the group agrees. > >>> > >>> On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > >>>> > >>>> It wouldn't work for me. > >>>> > >>>> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - > >>>> is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of > >>>> the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but > >>>> then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well > >>>> so what? The RSAB still has to approve the document? > >>>> > >>>> I would hope not. > >>>> > >>> Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > >>> > >>> OLD: > >>> > >>>> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received > >>>> during the > >>>> community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... > >>> > >>> NEW: > >>> > >>>> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received > >>>> during the > >>>> community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and > >>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... > >>> > >>> Or some such? And the RSAB could send out further calls for > >>> comment > >>> based on revisions, just to be certain. > >>> > >>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being > >>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN > >>> reasons. > >> > >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. > > > > Here is proposed text: > > > > ### > > > > There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of > > CONCERN: > > > > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a serious > > problem for one or more of the individual streams. > > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm > > to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and > > viability of the Series. > > * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community > > call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to advance > > the proposal. > > > Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets. Serious is way too > subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to decide > whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern. If you think > this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the right one > in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to make things > work. > > Add a 4th: > > * The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the community > call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid unraised issues > that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication. > > I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to either a > perception of a lack of community consensus, but an raised and valid > issue that wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason > I am not in favor of this. It brings in precisely the concern I had on reading this text of the RSWG laundering otherwise inadmissable objections that happen to be raised by a community member. -Ekr > > > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: > > > > ### > > > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during > > a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such > > comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they > > should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if > > the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) > > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > Delete "important" for the same reason. Also, there's some > plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and an and/or > issue so: > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a > community call for comment. If [one or more | an ] RSAB member(s) > conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be addressed, they > should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG. If they believe > an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of {{workflow}}, they > should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > *I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this is RSAB to RSWG > rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The former is > an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion based on RSAB > membership. Yeah, it's a nit. > > Mike > > > > > > ### > > > > Peter > > > --000000000000bd27fe05d4f61561 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:05 PM Michae= l StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.= com> wrote:
On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch
>>> <mailto:l= ear@lear.ch>> wrote:
>>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi Mike,
>>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just to preface, I'm offering some text= below just to clarify a
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 point on which I suspect the group agrees.<= br> >>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It wouldn't work for me.
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What I think EKR is saying - and let me= use a concrete example -
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is that if 5 people that think changing= the numbering system of
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the RFC series proposes that in the RSW= G, gets RSWG consensus, but
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 then the community overwhelmingly think= s that's a bad idea - well
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 so what?=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RSAB still has= to approve the document?
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would hope not.
>>>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help?
>>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OLD:
>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 8.=C2=A0 Once t= he RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received
>>>> during the
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ...
>>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NEW:
>>>
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 8. Once the RSW= G chairs confirm that concerns received
>>>> during the
>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and
>>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the= result*,...
>>>
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or some such?=C2=A0 And the RSAB could send= out further calls for
>>> comment
>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 based on revisions, just to be certain.
>>>
>>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not bein= g
>>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN
>>> reasons.
>>
>> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward.
>
> Here is proposed text:
>
> ###
>
> There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of
> CONCERN:
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a= serious
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 problem for one or more of the individual str= eams.
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause = serious harm
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to the overall Series, including harm to the = long-term health and
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 viability of the Series.
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the c= ommunity
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no= consensus to advance
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the proposal.
>
Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Se= rious is way too
subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to decide
whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern.=C2=A0 If you thin= k
this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the righ= t one
in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to make things work.

Add a 4th:

* The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the community
call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid unraised issues
that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication.

I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to either a perception of=C2=A0 a lack of community consensus, but an raised and valid =
issue that=C2=A0 wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason

I am not in favor of this. It brings in precisely= the concern I had on reading this
text of the RSWG laundering ot= herwise inadmissable objections that happen
to be raised by a com= munity member.

-Ekr


>
> Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: >
> ###
>
> The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during
> a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such
> comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they
> should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if
> the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting.

Delete "important" for the same reason.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, there&#= 39;s some
plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and an = and/or
issue so:

The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a
community call for comment.=C2=A0 If [one or more | an ] RSAB member(s) conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be addressed, they should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG.=C2=A0 If they belie= ve
an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of {{workflow}}, they should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting.<= br>
*I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this= is RSAB to RSWG
rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The former is an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion based on RSAB membership.=C2=A0 Yeah, it's a nit.

Mike


>
> ###
>
> Peter


--000000000000bd27fe05d4f61561-- From nobody Thu Jan 6 20:18:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CEF3A12C9 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:18:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GRq7r833dVWR for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4A823A12C5 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4JVVMl5mDyz1pLsS; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1641529123; bh=zSaQEpTUqE7hU2arnguMYLj4504HGmyuVR7CCKxAgkQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=JV/RYzGlp6oo+Es8XaSp/AuGfVVtpAovGa76JjL01tT4QXhzXJ7Xpc42G5hc/joNC N0vYXIVL1dhofcrmDfG3Sqnth21PGy1ogAr41zv9Cfznc0Eq4YCDbwGjfRxmRDhrIY CeShAHYus0eDRTARhliYrxtXSbzRp6IuzJ0aYL9M= X-Quarantine-ID: <7HLoBAL46F9v> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JVVMk73rRz1ntWm; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:18:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9ed198ca-430d-60d5-660d-d2e0cd81ffa9@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 23:18:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 04:18:49 -0000 top-posting, as I think there is sufficient context. If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that the RSWG should not be forced to reconsider because a few people just don't like what has been agreed with the RSWG. But what happens in the more extreme case. Suppose that the RSWG agrees to something. The RSAB does not conclude that it is harmful to the series or any particular stream. And then the community at large clearly and explicitly says "no, we do not want to do that." It seems that should have some standing, shouldn't it? Yours, Joel On 1/6/2022 11:03 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:05 PM Michael StJohns > wrote: > > On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear > >>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>>     Hi Mike, > >>> > >>>     Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a > >>>     point on which I suspect the group agrees. > >>> > >>>     On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > >>>> > >>>>     It wouldn't work for me. > >>>> > >>>>     What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete > example - > >>>>     is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering > system of > >>>>     the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG > consensus, but > >>>>     then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea > - well > >>>>     so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? > >>>> > >>>>     I would hope not. > >>>> > >>>     Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > >>> > >>>     OLD: > >>> > >>>>         8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received > >>>> during the > >>>>             community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... > >>> > >>>     NEW: > >>> > >>>>         8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received > >>>> during the > >>>>            community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and > >>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the > result*,... > >>> > >>>     Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for > >>> comment > >>>     based on revisions, just to be certain. > >>> > >>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being > >>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN > >>> reasons. > >> > >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. > > > > Here is proposed text: > > > > ### > > > > There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of > > CONCERN: > > > >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a serious > >      problem for one or more of the individual streams. > >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause > serious harm > >      to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term > health and > >      viability of the Series. > >    * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community > >      call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to > advance > >      the proposal. > > > Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets.   Serious is way too > subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to decide > whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern.  If you think > this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the right one > in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to make things > work. > > Add a 4th: > > * The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the community > call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid unraised issues > that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication. > > I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to > either a > perception of  a lack of community consensus, but an raised and valid > issue that  wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason > > > I am not in favor of this. It brings in precisely the concern I had on > reading this > text of the RSWG laundering otherwise inadmissable objections that happen > to be raised by a community member. > > -Ekr > > > > > > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: > > > > ### > > > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during > > a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such > > comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they > > should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if > > the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) > > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > Delete "important" for the same reason.   Also, there's some > plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and an and/or > issue so: > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a > community call for comment.  If [one or more | an ] RSAB member(s) > conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be addressed, > they > should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG.  If they > believe > an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of {{workflow}}, > they > should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > *I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this is RSAB to RSWG > rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The former is > an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion based on RSAB > membership.  Yeah, it's a nit. > > Mike > > > > > > ### > > > > Peter > > > From nobody Thu Jan 6 20:38:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BA03A1319 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:38:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6IjuTwwZQAr0 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 700573A1317 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id j15so2643575ilq.4 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:38:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hy5im0x0pgVgbvYEskcJCxriu+a5SrK3JgKKlgkMukY=; b=WKmKXJzol5dkKygnKL64JN5PDvEQS0Rsngl+FT3anLElbjygtAirlJqyB+gWIL1mPe Z0ygJy2zN6rI3Mi+l0Jo/DLtcga95P6MkMAJBUE4agY6XSYqgSMT5M9Owe/LEjexS+A8 A2Zr+kQ3QORQ2n0s8/PAlXqC9VsNbXyiwE4EC68z5AqbAnx+uLcFSgTkbD9P75U1PURy a23kCP5MXucR7W8GWWzQUCU7Z9trj4HLA3o6Q6yds86qDNo6lRsf1TGLpr3u1x3Z+sFe 1m8g7M8XYELffNCNlwgRbRCv5HFpZ0gn/ug83oNJKzwSmIVBAab2hId1TVlajutlzzH2 jkwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hy5im0x0pgVgbvYEskcJCxriu+a5SrK3JgKKlgkMukY=; b=Wdlu4JF6mdViJC3VAYdw8drmxFtfgYYjHmJEmGdGniSDUL/hBH1RLO9zO6yJjJ37Ei 3yKG8vnmgMSAt9twwHt0TaQskbBfqW+aSK3FxzxbWondR/GV/+tF/XhMZ0ucGiQYn9Mc 9vZsHt8mp5PssFZOGPKceHboSjs8vxylyD2AMZuIUShfMa6oTc6354F1LH4eg+zhhP22 ilqrpy6rKWUKzynpmUcFCuOjcz86GgDB1x6qoXF5UIuhTT7qrQSqi5rLd9gN8KKqOBQ4 cRakjheRnRp3cV2b67++AbLfCwFVzhCDKuxYRNNeUHAWi8KFaPgITWsSIeBBkiMQrLl1 tabg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533FzMyLl1ZTr6mmmXPXV/j5058PMEBO4XIXBVOZVO7/SWJyph8a MrB4HAGDGhM6LGbqRSXXV3d4Xo/zK7cDlIow5eMPmpWa06hXrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxUXLvCRSIagTDSIajbHeaH+SyYPMx1Q+oyBolrLtVRQb6l0NIRxR5TZjugMbUldBfkcn1kTgzzHtDBvpuxSEA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:14d1:: with SMTP id o17mr29733375ilk.276.1641530284879; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:38:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> <9ed198ca-430d-60d5-660d-d2e0cd81ffa9@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9ed198ca-430d-60d5-660d-d2e0cd81ffa9@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:37:28 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084c4bb05d4f68daa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 04:38:12 -0000 --00000000000084c4bb05d4f68daa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 8:18 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > top-posting, as I think there is sufficient context. > > If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that the RSWG should > not be forced to reconsider because a few people just don't like what > has been agreed with the RSWG. > > But what happens in the more extreme case. Suppose that the RSWG agrees > to something. The RSAB does not conclude that it is harmful to the > series or any particular stream. And then the community at large > clearly and explicitly says "no, we do not want to do that." It seems > that should have some standing, shouldn't it? > Thanks for your note. I see I have expressed myself unclearly, so let me try to clarify. My overall position is that the judgement of the community should determine the direction of the RFC stream, subject to supervision by the RSAB in specific cases, namely (1) harm to one of the streams or (2) harm to the series as a whole. Now, to map that onto process. Let's assume that the RSWG had rough consensus on a document and it goes to LC. 1. If some set of people object, but in small enough numbers that they would not threaten the overall consensus, then the RSAB should be able to insist that the RSWG go back and confirm that it has not changed their thinking. However, if they do so, then this should be treated as community consensus and the RSAB should not be able to block the document aside from for the reasons stated above. 2. If enough people object that it threatens the overall consensus (i.e., that if you put them together with any dissenters in the WG, you would not have rough consensus) then the document should not advance and the RSWG bears the burden of going back and creating a document that could get consensus. This applies no matter what the objection is. So, in both cases, I think the question is what the consensus of the community is. Now, it is also possible that during LC someone will raise an objection that would be a valid reason for the RSAB to block the document on its own (as stated above). In that case the RSAB can of course object, but the fact that someone objected in LC does not give them more power to do so then they otherwise would. Hopefully that's clearer, though of course you may disagree. -Ekr Yours, > Joel > > On 1/6/2022 11:03 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:05 PM Michael StJohns > > wrote: > > > > On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear > > > >>> >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi Mike, > > >>> > > >>> Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to > clarify a > > >>> point on which I suspect the group agrees. > > >>> > > >>> On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> It wouldn't work for me. > > >>>> > > >>>> What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete > > example - > > >>>> is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering > > system of > > >>>> the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG > > consensus, but > > >>>> then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea > > - well > > >>>> so what? The RSAB still has to approve the document? > > >>>> > > >>>> I would hope not. > > >>>> > > >>> Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > > >>> > > >>> OLD: > > >>> > > >>>> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received > > >>>> during the > > >>>> community call(s) for comment have been addressed, > ... > > >>> > > >>> NEW: > > >>> > > >>>> 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received > > >>>> during the > > >>>> community call(s) for comment have been > addressed*and > > >>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the > > result*,... > > >>> > > >>> Or some such? And the RSAB could send out further calls for > > >>> comment > > >>> based on revisions, just to be certain. > > >>> > > >>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being > > >>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN > > >>> reasons. > > >> > > >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. > > > > > > Here is proposed text: > > > > > > ### > > > > > > There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of > > > CONCERN: > > > > > > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a > serious > > > problem for one or more of the individual streams. > > > * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause > > serious harm > > > to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term > > health and > > > viability of the Series. > > > * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the > community > > > call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to > > advance > > > the proposal. > > > > > Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets. Serious is way > too > > subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to decide > > whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern. If you > think > > this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the right > one > > in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to make > things > > work. > > > > Add a 4th: > > > > * The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the community > > call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid unraised > issues > > that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication. > > > > I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to > > either a > > perception of a lack of community consensus, but an raised and valid > > issue that wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason > > > > > > I am not in favor of this. It brings in precisely the concern I had on > > reading this > > text of the RSWG laundering otherwise inadmissable objections that happen > > to be raised by a community member. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, > too: > > > > > > ### > > > > > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during > > > a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such > > > comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they > > > should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if > > > the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of > {{workflow}}) > > > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > > > Delete "important" for the same reason. Also, there's some > > plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and an > and/or > > issue so: > > > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a > > community call for comment. If [one or more | an ] RSAB member(s) > > conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be addressed, > > they > > should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG. If they > > believe > > an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of {{workflow}}, > > they > > should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > > > *I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this is RSAB to > RSWG > > rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The former > is > > an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion based on > RSAB > > membership. Yeah, it's a nit. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > ### > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > --00000000000084c4bb05d4f68daa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 8:18 PM Joel M= . Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
top= -posting, as I think there is sufficient context.

If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that the RSWG should
not be forced to reconsider because a few people just don't like what <= br> has been agreed with the RSWG.

But what happens in the more extreme case.=C2=A0 Suppose that the RSWG agre= es
to something.=C2=A0 The RSAB does not conclude that it is harmful to the series or any particular stream.=C2=A0 And then the community at large
clearly and explicitly says "no, we do not want to do that."=C2= =A0 =C2=A0It seems
that should have some standing, shouldn't it?
Thanks for your note. I see I have expressed myself unclearly,
so = let me try to clarify.


My overall position is that the judgement= of the community should
determine the direction of the RFC stream, subj= ect to supervision by
the RSAB in specific cases, namely (1) harm to one= of the streams or
(2) harm to the series as a whole. Now, to map that o= nto process.

Let's assume that the RSWG had rough consensus on a= document and
it goes to LC.

1. If some set of people object, but= in small enough numbers that
they would not threaten the overall consen= sus, then the RSAB should
be able to insist that the RSWG go back and co= nfirm that it has
not changed their thinking. However, if they do so, th= en this should
be treated as community consensus and the RSAB should not= be able
to block the document aside from for the reasons stated above.<= br>
2. If enough people object that it threatens the overall consensus(i.e., that if you put them together with any dissenters in the
WG, yo= u would not have rough consensus) then the document should not
advance a= nd the RSWG bears the burden of going back and creating
a document that = could get consensus. This applies no matter what
the objection is.

So, in both cases, I think the question is what the conse= nsus of
the community is.


Now, it is also possible that durin= g LC someone will raise an
objection that would be a valid reason for th= e RSAB to block
the document on its own (as stated above). In that case = the
RSAB can of course object, but the fact that someone objected
in = LC does not give them more power to do so then they otherwise
would.
=

Hopefully that's clearer, though of course you may disagree.
-Ekr

Yours,
Joel

On 1/6/2022 11:03 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:05 PM Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com
> <mailto:msj@nthpermutation.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot= Lear <lear@lear.ch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:lear@lear.ch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> <mailto:lear@lear.ch <mailto:lear@lear.ch>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi Mike,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just to preface, I= 'm offering some text below just to clarify a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 point on which I s= uspect the group agrees.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 04.01.22 19:52,= Michael StJohns wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It wouldn'= t work for me.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What I think E= KR is saying - and let me use a concrete
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is that if 5 p= eople that think changing the numbering
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0system of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the RFC series= proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 then the commu= nity overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- well
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 so what?=C2=A0= =C2=A0 The RSAB still has to approve the document?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would hope n= ot.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Perhaps a tweak to= Step 8 might help?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OLD:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 8.=C2=A0 Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> during the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 community call(s) for comment have been a= ddressed, ...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NEW:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> during the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 community call(s) for comment have been address= ed*and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> that ****there is rough consensus= of the community for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0result*,...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or some such?=C2= =A0 And the RSAB could send out further calls for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> comment
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 based on revisions= , just to be certain.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Or some such. I also would not object= to adding there not being
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> consensus of the community to the RSA= B CONCERN
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> reasons.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Here is proposed text:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ###
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There are three reasons why an RSAB member ma= y file a position of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > CONCERN:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 * The RSAB member believes that = the proposal represents a serious
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 problem for one or m= ore of the individual streams.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 * The RSAB member believes that = the proposal would cause
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0serious harm
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to the overall Serie= s, including harm to the long-term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0health and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 viability of the Ser= ies.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 * The RSAB member believes, base= d on the results of the community
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 call(s) for comment = {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0advance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the proposal.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Delete "serious" in both of the first two= bullets.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Serious is way too
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the vote= r gets to decide
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0whether or not the problem creates an actionable co= ncern.=C2=A0 If you think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this demands an adjective then "unmitigable&qu= ot; is probably the right one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in both locations as it would prompt a discussion o= f how to make things
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Add a 4th:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* The RSAB member believes that based on the result= s of the community
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously va= lid unraised issues
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publ= ication.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issu= ed to due to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0either a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perception of=C2=A0 a lack of community consensus, = but an raised and valid
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issue that=C2=A0 wasn't apparent to the RSWG fo= r some reason
>
>
> I am not in favor of this. It brings in precisely the concern I had on=
> reading this
> text of the RSWG laundering otherwise inadmissable objections that hap= pen
> to be raised by a community member.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text i= n the CFC section, too:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ###
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The RSAB is responsible for considering comme= nts received during
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a community call for comment. If RSAB members= conclude that such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > comments raise important issues that need to = be addressed, they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > should do so by discussing those issues withi= n the RSWG or (if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the issues meet the criteria specified under = Step 9 of {{workflow}})
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > lodging a position of "CONCERN" dur= ing RSAB balloting.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Delete "important" for the same reason.= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, there's some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0plural/single issues here with respect to who "= ;concludes" and an and/or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issue so:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSAB is responsible for considering comments re= ceived during a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community call for comment.=C2=A0 If [one or more |= an ] RSAB member(s)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0conclude that such comments raise issues that need = to be addressed,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should do so by discussing those issues with* the R= SWG.=C2=A0 If they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 = of {{workflow}},
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should also lodge a position of "CONCERN"= during RSAB balloting.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*I believe "with" is more correct than &q= uot;within" as this is RSAB to RSWG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the= RSWG. The former is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an individual opinion, the latter is a positional o= pinion based on RSAB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0membership.=C2=A0 Yeah, it's a nit.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mike
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ###
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Peter
>
>
>
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Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0169.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:ba::13) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 0f45d226-3f80-4fff-f46b-08d9d197e578 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYAPR01MB3231:EE_ X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:4941; 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 04:41:10 -0000 On 2022-01-07 12:05, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>     Hi Mike, >>>> >>>>     Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just to clarify a >>>>     point on which I suspect the group agrees. >>>> >>>>     On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>>> >>>>>     It wouldn't work for me. >>>>> >>>>>     What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete example - >>>>>     is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering system of >>>>>     the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG consensus, but >>>>>     then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a bad idea - well >>>>>     so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? >>>>> >>>>>     I would hope not. >>>>> >>>>     Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? >>>> >>>>     OLD: >>>> >>>>>         8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>>>> during the >>>>>             community call(s) for comment have been addressed, ... >>>> >>>>     NEW: >>>> >>>>>         8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns received >>>>> during the >>>>>            community call(s) for comment have been addressed*and >>>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the result*,... >>>> >>>>     Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further calls for >>>> comment >>>>     based on revisions, just to be certain. >>>> >>>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there not being >>>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN >>>> reasons. >>> >>> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. >> >> Here is proposed text: >> >> ### >> >> There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a position of >> CONCERN: >> >>    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents a serious >>      problem for one or more of the individual streams. >>    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm >>      to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term health and >>      viability of the Series. >>    * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community >>      call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no consensus to advance >>      the proposal. >> > Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets.   Serious is way too > subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to decide > whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern.  If you think > this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the right one > in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to make things > work. > > Add a 4th: > > * The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the community > call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid unraised issues > that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication. previously valid unraised issues -> valid previously unraised issues (or previously unraised valid issues) If an issue was previously valid, but is no longer valid, who cares. Regards, Martin. > I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to either a > perception of  a lack of community consensus, but an raised and valid > issue that  wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason > >> ### >> >> Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC section, too: >> >> ### >> >> The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during >> a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude that such >> comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, they >> should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if >> the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of {{workflow}}) >> lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > Delete "important" for the same reason.   Also, there's some > plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and an and/or > issue so: > > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received during a > community call for comment.  If [one or more | an ] RSAB member(s) > conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be addressed, they > should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG.  If they believe > an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of {{workflow}}, they > should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > *I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this is RSAB to RSWG > rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The former is > an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion based on RSAB > membership.  Yeah, it's a nit. > > Mike > > >> >> ### >> >> Peter > From nobody Thu Jan 6 20:55:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380783A1373 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:55:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id giOf5Ba-vaub for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0783F3A1372 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4JVW9w4m4Mz1ntP7; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:55:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1641531316; bh=WdsRKP/biEnPiPt0xL8PRzo4SU3jC9fFZPILDMCBzHQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=MoE5zpoH5X6Q+Rih7yQ9zOSoQkGrDtDh5Q4g/RYmXjyK+6NA10uPqWKGqwg0Z432e 6DHreAgQaSRvL4lu7x/xw7DQvWgIyiZi+NePNdj2jEmSSXoHVy8MvTLxjoS+P88vhr ufiegY3bgcJhfM2K87SgaOnxJj9ZB01R7KEt6xGs= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JVW9w0RJCz1nsk2; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:55:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382eebba-7ccf-8476-bbf9-fdb85efddcaa@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 23:55:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <87ea0c57-3269-d8ea-90ec-0f91096f1d28@nthpermutation.com> <145d2db5-b44a-1c2c-7bae-79b042313445@lear.ch> <7608db96-fd32-ed68-e828-7c0c3d1993ac@stpeter.im> <8f81801e-d6f5-181e-02f8-c9eef34e6c74@stpeter.im> <3ffb9dbe-2a2a-2ae7-047b-7bae527a50f0@nthpermutation.com> <9ed198ca-430d-60d5-660d-d2e0cd81ffa9@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] WGLC Review of the draft X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 04:55:21 -0000 I think we agree on the goal. At the moment, I am not confident that the words match the goal. Given the wording we have, assuming there is clear rough consensus of the community against a document advancing, on what basis would the RSAB be able to send the document back to the RSWG for rework / reconsideration? It is possible we have that in Peter's wording, but I don't see it. Yours, Joel On 1/6/2022 11:37 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 8:18 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > top-posting, as I think there is sufficient context. > > If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that the RSWG should > not be forced to reconsider because a few people just don't like what > has been agreed with the RSWG. > > But what happens in the more extreme case.  Suppose that the RSWG > agrees > to something.  The RSAB does not conclude that it is harmful to the > series or any particular stream.  And then the community at large > clearly and explicitly says "no, we do not want to do that."   It seems > that should have some standing, shouldn't it? > > > Thanks for your note. I see I have expressed myself unclearly, > so let me try to clarify. > > > My overall position is that the judgement of the community should > determine the direction of the RFC stream, subject to supervision by > the RSAB in specific cases, namely (1) harm to one of the streams or > (2) harm to the series as a whole. Now, to map that onto process. > > Let's assume that the RSWG had rough consensus on a document and > it goes to LC. > > 1. If some set of people object, but in small enough numbers that > they would not threaten the overall consensus, then the RSAB should > be able to insist that the RSWG go back and confirm that it has > not changed their thinking. However, if they do so, then this should > be treated as community consensus and the RSAB should not be able > to block the document aside from for the reasons stated above. > > 2. If enough people object that it threatens the overall consensus > (i.e., that if you put them together with any dissenters in the > WG, you would not have rough consensus) then the document should not > advance and the RSWG bears the burden of going back and creating > a document that could get consensus. This applies no matter what > the objection is. > > So, in both cases, I think the question is what the consensus of > the community is. > > > Now, it is also possible that during LC someone will raise an > objection that would be a valid reason for the RSAB to block > the document on its own (as stated above). In that case the > RSAB can of course object, but the fact that someone objected > in LC does not give them more power to do so then they otherwise > would. > > > Hopefully that's clearer, though of course you may disagree. > > -Ekr > > Yours, > Joel > > On 1/6/2022 11:03 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:05 PM Michael StJohns > > > >> > wrote: > > > >     On 1/6/2022 9:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >      > On 1/6/22 7:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >      >> On 1/4/22 1:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >      >>> > >      >>> > >      >>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:50 AM Eliot Lear > >     > > >      >>> > >>> wrote: > >      >>> > >      >>>     Hi Mike, > >      >>> > >      >>>     Just to preface, I'm offering some text below just > to clarify a > >      >>>     point on which I suspect the group agrees. > >      >>> > >      >>>     On 04.01.22 19:52, Michael StJohns wrote: > >      >>>> > >      >>>>     It wouldn't work for me. > >      >>>> > >      >>>>     What I think EKR is saying - and let me use a concrete > >     example - > >      >>>>     is that if 5 people that think changing the numbering > >     system of > >      >>>>     the RFC series proposes that in the RSWG, gets RSWG > >     consensus, but > >      >>>>     then the community overwhelmingly thinks that's a > bad idea > >     - well > >      >>>>     so what?   The RSAB still has to approve the document? > >      >>>> > >      >>>>     I would hope not. > >      >>>> > >      >>>     Perhaps a tweak to Step 8 might help? > >      >>> > >      >>>     OLD: > >      >>> > >      >>>>         8.  Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns > received > >      >>>> during the > >      >>>>             community call(s) for comment have been > addressed, ... > >      >>> > >      >>>     NEW: > >      >>> > >      >>>>         8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that concerns > received > >      >>>> during the > >      >>>>            community call(s) for comment have been > addressed*and > >      >>>> that ****there is rough consensus of the community for the > >     result*,... > >      >>> > >      >>>     Or some such?  And the RSAB could send out further > calls for > >      >>> comment > >      >>>     based on revisions, just to be certain. > >      >>> > >      >>> Or some such. I also would not object to adding there > not being > >      >>> consensus of the community to the RSAB CONCERN > >      >>> reasons. > >      >> > >      >> IMHO that's a reasonable path forward. > >      > > >      > Here is proposed text: > >      > > >      > ### > >      > > >      > There are three reasons why an RSAB member may file a > position of > >      > CONCERN: > >      > > >      >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal represents > a serious > >      >      problem for one or more of the individual streams. > >      >    * The RSAB member believes that the proposal would cause > >     serious harm > >      >      to the overall Series, including harm to the long-term > >     health and > >      >      viability of the Series. > >      >    * The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the > community > >      >      call(s) for comment {{cfc}}, that there is no > consensus to > >     advance > >      >      the proposal. > >      > > >     Delete "serious" in both of the first two bullets.   Serious > is way too > >     subjective, and pretty meaningless here as the voter gets to > decide > >     whether or not the problem creates an actionable concern.  If > you think > >     this demands an adjective then "unmitigable" is probably the > right one > >     in both locations as it would prompt a discussion of how to > make things > >     work. > > > >     Add a 4th: > > > >     * The RSAB member believes that based on the results of the > community > >     call(s) for comment {{cfc}} there are previously valid > unraised issues > >     that need to be addressed by the RSWG prior to publication. > > > >     I.e., a CONCERN based on community call may be issued to due to > >     either a > >     perception of  a lack of community consensus, but an raised > and valid > >     issue that  wasn't apparent to the RSWG for some reason > > > > > > I am not in favor of this. It brings in precisely the concern I > had on > > reading this > > text of the RSWG laundering otherwise inadmissable objections > that happen > > to be raised by a community member. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > >      > > >      > Then I suggest we clean up my proposed text in the CFC > section, too: > >      > > >      > ### > >      > > >      > The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received > during > >      > a community call for comment. If RSAB members conclude > that such > >      > comments raise important issues that need to be addressed, > they > >      > should do so by discussing those issues within the RSWG or (if > >      > the issues meet the criteria specified under Step 9 of > {{workflow}}) > >      > lodging a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > > >     Delete "important" for the same reason.   Also, there's some > >     plural/single issues here with respect to who "concludes" and > an and/or > >     issue so: > > > >     The RSAB is responsible for considering comments received > during a > >     community call for comment.  If [one or more | an ] RSAB > member(s) > >     conclude that such comments raise issues that need to be > addressed, > >     they > >     should do so by discussing those issues with* the RSWG.  If they > >     believe > >     an issue meets the criteria specified under step 9 of > {{workflow}}, > >     they > >     should also lodge a position of "CONCERN" during RSAB balloting. > > > >     *I believe "with" is more correct than "within" as this is > RSAB to RSWG > >     rather than the RSAB member as a participant in the RSWG. The > former is > >     an individual opinion, the latter is a positional opinion > based on RSAB > >     membership.  Yeah, it's a nit. > > > >     Mike > > > > > >      > > >      > ### > >      > > >      > Peter > > > > > > > From nobody Fri Jan 7 03:38:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285D53A19A4 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 03:38:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pwxx_2aVjNE6 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 03:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5FC33A19A3 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 03:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee733e70034e89fbd8d38e960.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e733:e700:34e8:9fbd:8d38:e960]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1n5nZX-00042U-8p; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:38:15 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:38:13 +0100 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1641555501;2ee8e49a; X-HE-SMSGID: 1n5nZX-00042U-8p Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 11:38:26 -0000 I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion but I want to note that is not = what we do for the IESG and IAB. While there is not necessarily = anything secret on those lists, I always thought is makes the work = easier because you can just freely send things without e.g. worrying too = much about the exact wording. As noted by Brian and in the text below, = there are always things that are confidential and need to be send to a = list without public archive. Given such a list always has to exist, my = guess it that people would just end up using that list more because it = just easier than lengthly considering what to send where. So why do we think that the mail archive for the RSAB needs to be open = in additional to e.g. minutes which should cover all the important = points? > On 7. Jan 2022, at 01:51, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > wfm >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 07-Jan-22 12:45, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/6/22 12:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 06-Jan-22 14:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> The draft says: >>>>=20 >>>> The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, = including >>>> minutes of all meetings and a record of all=20 > decisions. >>>>=20 >>>> Brian Carpenter noted: "As far as I can see, we don't specify = whether >>>> the RSAB's mailing list does, or doesn't, have a public archive." >>>>=20 >>>> Do folks have opinions on this point? >>>>=20 >>>> (Without my editor hat on, I think it's preferable to make the list >>>> archives public, in the interest of transparency.) >>>=20 >>> So, ignoring the copy-by-value vs copy-by-reference detail, my >>> opinion is that RSAB email should be in a public archive *except* >>> for anything that amounts to an "executive session" discussion. >> Proposed text: >> ### >> The RSAB is expected to operate via an email discussion list, >> in-person meetings, teleconferencing systems, and any additional >> tooling it deems necessary. >> The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including >> minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Email messages >> sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among all members >> of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the exception of topics >> that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel matters). Similarly, >> meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about topics >> discussed under executive session, but should note that such topics >> were discussed. >> ### >> Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Fri Jan 7 06:50:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6CA3A07A6 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 06:50:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6YmFUIarnM8f for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 06:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D8CD3A077E for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 06:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (mobile-access-2e8466-21.dhcp.inet.fi [46.132.102.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 651D61D255A; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:50:17 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641567017; bh=cnXVMpAoIWIzEmZAI0LKC3Nb6SSBXn3QSBy8r7A0zLM=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=VmHmu2E+LpU65Tu+85/qidbjnEbY5QdgrWdNnKiHM6zc7/kwTfcuTCe/jZNdEYvsX uWTWIBJhAwmcql13b/uuRSoQaopWk6AocAM2Qz2BHkpsuxpSe8kYQfYUPzpcx8mJII Yk2wCoD/RE7AmBgQSLvhD0XspciN9hz1o8/J8ODw= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:50:15 +0200 Message-Id: <20E548FE-22A3-4B25-AB8C-AEC6AB9C689B@eggert.org> References: <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-MailScanner-ID: 651D61D255A.A3DAF X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 14:50:38 -0000 +1 to Mirja --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Jan 7, 2022, at 13:38, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion but I want to note that is n= ot what we do for the IESG and IAB. While there is not necessarily anything= secret on those lists, I always thought is makes the work easier because yo= u can just freely send things without e.g. worrying too much about the exact= wording. As noted by Brian and in the text below, there are always things t= hat are confidential and need to be send to a list without public archive. G= iven such a list always has to exist, my guess it that people would just end= up using that list more because it just easier than lengthly considering wh= at to send where. >=20 > So why do we think that the mail archive for the RSAB needs to be open in a= dditional to e.g. minutes which should cover all the important points? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 7. Jan 2022, at 01:51, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>=20 >> wfm >>=20 >> Regards >> Brian >>=20 >>> On 07-Jan-22 12:45, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 1/6/22 12:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> On 06-Jan-22 14:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>> The draft says: >>>>>=20 >>>>> The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including >>>>> minutes of all meetings and a record of all=20 >> decisions. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Brian Carpenter noted: "As far as I can see, we don't specify whether >>>>> the RSAB's mailing list does, or doesn't, have a public archive." >>>>>=20 >>>>> Do folks have opinions on this point? >>>>>=20 >>>>> (Without my editor hat on, I think it's preferable to make the list >>>>> archives public, in the interest of transparency.) >>>>=20 >>>> So, ignoring the copy-by-value vs copy-by-reference detail, my >>>> opinion is that RSAB email should be in a public archive *except* >>>> for anything that amounts to an "executive session" discussion. >>> Proposed text: >>> ### >>> The RSAB is expected to operate via an email discussion list, >>> in-person meetings, teleconferencing systems, and any additional >>> tooling it deems necessary. >>> The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including >>> minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Email messages >>> sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among all members >>> of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the exception of topics >>> that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel matters). Similarly, >>> meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about topics >>> discussed under executive session, but should note that such topics >>> were discussed. >>> ### >>> Peter >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Fri Jan 7 07:43:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728273A0989 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 07:43:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=h/vrWnPB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Sd/lE/5W Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zn8WbeC8A8AR for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 07:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90AD13A099E for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 07:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA9F5C00D0; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 10:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 07 Jan 2022 10:43:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:from:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=L59SWrXfd6rSLp77IA4bUtyjxD Y2LU5IVRJEt4nBjZw=; b=h/vrWnPB/HB9EGSeWqWhpaTKICe6XiJ/R26z6H9bqq Mel1KsPohfDWHnc01X55LSVoKdWUgiQsZ5W7+pHCAH3fLtOqWDgQWL6ELqoGXx+0 WWA/DHqiIQS1Aa9ZUJ0+zw38HdcTdSX5LiEITOwqqFOJpRCqS0h6kUKYuPrHWf/K ez/7H6E/Q/scqLH4ZKScj3tAFmghjP9M3lNSHvV3p253GaJlb8tiUPecO1VLdIDL ZjDL2vSBTcQdyCiOm2nKnY1QtYnURxc6BaVVRgUyqOHXH+LOVMKS0zIjX8REu+9I jHyNhNvOX15PW9KRdnYfBiRzG4c0/gCPAbDiWkpScwuA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=L59SWr Xfd6rSLp77IA4bUtyjxDY2LU5IVRJEt4nBjZw=; b=Sd/lE/5WkHbkIUo6BbcV28 Wm/iGbCEeX6KLWl9xp6TC5KjYf4Sv2IksjgMyxBJ7D2fA2qf0w/g2G2vQykcZw3B Z4HLMcY45j1Hso1gFB9nrZrEj28sTeCCjXT5gITxPCJ0bTuAK4ztZeJcwVk+DlNu 2u51km5o2G0G+1jQAVzWHulgxvt3Deo5pl3x9drxwQoFpeQB0S4ZWoP4iT/GKhTB 6QowlI8/n5v+51upeCLhVhbJrZiLC8sxVeTSZ5zh/Itv5pnzP1BVoRyP5KS31j3W Dv+bQK8I9NkPZ7nVZgeJLPql7ApDrskS+Pwon4pIHvBGoKliQJEDUarrfFldFpcw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegvddgheehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfvhffutgfgsehtjeertd dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgv rhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefteelkeevgefghefgfe egiedutefggedutdejleehudevhfelueejgfegffetueenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrd himh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 10:43:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2df7bab6-8505-f95a-665c-994cb64fb625@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:43:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] -08 on the way X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:43:30 -0000 Hi all, About 6-12 hours from now I'll submit -08. This will still contain some provisional text for certain issues, so don't panic if it's not quite to your liking. :-) However, we'll be able to see how the whole thing hangs together, so it should help us move closer toward consensus. Peter From nobody Fri Jan 7 07:58:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEC03A0A1A for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 07:58:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a_1DpV0WQKlo for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 07:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FIz3H11BZiC0Lmi9pIgWXYXlelSu8np33gDs83Uuo+8=; b=lHp4NGPQGXpgdBuTHcN6yBNYR15RFW8maIbxftqIP043MUX4tLteFqPwtdhK6WS0Zv Pdm7E5cVgxNrLGIvMYDowhn73LAT9os3SqzbGp7RpNWJLxxHlw+zGT920+va2S8md8DT 6XyK2rEtJ2EvA+8xPOsRB0i25hTUswzsQtTPBWdb0uh8/tk7wx9SRCKz/GD/n4+7UD/c SW64c1Wj8wR5D7119VkvAxswZPtd8BYvKlSLWSqC951LI+PfdRhMQ3x8/0s0+H3NJOTd gYngAlqZ2CNuTMBn8Jq48JGUCAJ1ZMLX5kF3qFkOMUXjxDh4M6i+Zr6Y7DQWD+zDyTn2 U2gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FIz3H11BZiC0Lmi9pIgWXYXlelSu8np33gDs83Uuo+8=; b=gJ/vkMFEnTjZQpBBgWqFmUTgVKsnskrn70+IeMjdQ3K+HFSZ6DbgDlDDuBdQGxIWuL 79PJ2iW0LihWB3BYOpBClgqiI3TVQC9MFti2TCZ7OQO0GgHFvl4dUwaYY7LfoKJN0jUC g4AUNE+8vEZRk6IsGfBNUsaKG4utXK+87hoperTEg1seBzLWP8uUuYpfXdvzAEZJ3chn bF09VhBEEyyhT2Dk98hR1cX86I+PwWUjvQW3qy9Qn3SrTkWdqkSgqs+sB4Zy043cAjwE 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[Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 17:46:31 -0000 --000000000000da744605d501908d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion but I want to note that is not what= we do > for the IESG and IAB. Notes: the RFC futures group was tasked with developing a replacement for the existing mechanism (RSOC) that had better transparency and accountability. Public archives offer significantly more transparency, so the group should think about how far to swing the pendulum from where the very tightly closed RSOC group was with respect to the decision making process that the RSAB will need to conduct. > While there is not necessarily anything secret on those lists, I always > thought is makes the work easier because you can just freely send things > without e.g. worrying too much about the exact wording. I think in today's internet you must assume that anything you send by mail is archived. It's just a question of whether or not it's publicly archived or whether you have to ask someone for a copy of it, because almost assuredly someone or multiple someones do have copies. --=20 Wes Hardaker USC/ISI --000000000000da744605d501908d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don=E2=80=99t have a strong= opinion but I want to note that is not what we do for the IESG and IAB.

Notes: the RFC futures group was tasked with = developing=C2=A0a replacement for the existing mechanism (RSOC) that had be= tter transparency and accountability.=C2=A0 Public archives offer significa= ntly more transparency, so the group should think about how far to swing th= e pendulum=C2=A0from where the very tightly closed RSOC group was with resp= ect to the decision making process that the RSAB will need to conduct.

=C2=A0
While there is not necessarily=C2=A0 anything secret on those list= s, I always thought is makes the work easier because you can just freely se= nd things without e.g. worrying too much about the exact wording.=C2=A0

I think in today's internet you must assum= e that anything you send by mail is archived.=C2=A0 It's just a questio= n of whether or not it's publicly archived or whether you have to ask s= omeone for a copy of it, because almost assuredly someone or multiple someo= nes do have copies.
--
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI
--000000000000da744605d501908d-- From nobody Fri Jan 7 12:07:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AB83A1389 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:06:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HwqOd6zuGsHN for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CDF93A1390 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id b1-20020a17090a990100b001b14bd47532so7429826pjp.0 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:06:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=up1mjytHMkI7VPlPKf+z4N4CEE8m5xzssOb8r2NQumA=; b=eK4gvxKKzcixEpykMN7ZFLkvHz8c6XrvDW3jpTqYkftiS/s0Xf5Dm7j4UaKDPAIMqh RN/EywSWaT/wc+OOFknZx4PMv4jtVP9jjJ/hqNOBL1I+bHdlDf6HTO9FMiZgUmMr2V+b IrGGh9urFbrilWQa5WZiX7P0c3XhJRX32WMbRvgbSWL7lAfSkcpgQbiEXnp5QN8ea3IG JByIPGe5KnIDT2dKIxZFEhl8PVgBypx6Na6OVN93d5L10QPtbc4nPNDxUSaxzxZMCml9 I8Hhs4SIL2CamqCnHvOQFsaiI+BsYBQvRpvUSUIsgu4ARFTt/EZ0F7o47DdG5OVr1zd1 9+bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=up1mjytHMkI7VPlPKf+z4N4CEE8m5xzssOb8r2NQumA=; b=OVwi63Odr3ML5qvRys0MoOzPKBbl/YfA64sI3GYcFMLTvIhUSoBmutX/LaN4DO160h Qv4axINnuJaOOzhnuAzb9RCepGxb+siORqVl/z7+rH40yVTNpD5bG8h5Dyk22LDK4ypy r3RU486w2PyzzrtNoyFS9AE+HZ97EZJ5KZAk0BmNoxWYzn8Hf7tDgaGvblJn3QC5e6oE HL4Y/ZRV0YiFDqdPZ6ms3QmXfjg8sK2GALnq6YOmmoDYLxO/kpnPtQwb/ZlPE/n21WWD ehS94yHk7rjDA3zVFtxT47H4yg/Voo2vRDKMdIDYqWvOv8MHPyGr+c/LYk8xXNdazGAP cskQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tTaKZyWKD9pfp+P2e74mBC1fWtSh8su0kRTnoIjtb4E5Qqcf4 kO3GfD3ssDYszAp80Fg+o+A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbkCXjsfuCI7dleCvexVF7Na+Q43DRacLNivMuLWrJ5RzAJ2pdkotGus5Zt0fN74obBue3fw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:38c6:: with SMTP id nn6mr17718270pjb.26.1641586011483; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g9sm6674873pfc.203.2022.01.07.12.06.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:06:50 -0800 (PST) To: Wes Hardaker , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Peter Saint-Andre References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:06:46 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 20:06:57 -0000 On 08-Jan-22 06:45, Wes Hardaker wrote: >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion but I want to note that is no= t what we do for the IESG and IAB. >=20 >=20 > Notes: the RFC futures group was tasked with developing=C2=A0a replacem= ent for the existing mechanism (RSOC) that had better transparency and ac= countability.=C2=A0 Public archives offer significantly more transparency= , so the group should think about how far to swing the pendulum=C2=A0from=20 where the very tightly closed RSOC group was with respect to the decision=20 making process that the RSAB will need to conduct. >=20 > While there is not necessarily=C2=A0 anything secret on those lists= , I always thought is makes the work easier because you can just freely s= end things without e.g. worrying too much about the exact wording.=20 >=20 >=20 > I think in today's internet you must assume that anything you send by m= ail is archived.=C2=A0 It's just a question of whether or not it's public= ly archived or whether you have to ask someone for a copy of it, because = almost assuredly someone or multiple someones do have copies. Indeed. And whatever we write here, there will in the real world be two l= ists. One called rsab@rfc-editor.org with a public archive and one withou= t a public archive. (The second one might not be a mailman list as such, = but whatever we write it *will* exist in some form. I don't think I've ev= er been in a committee or other team that didn't sometimes communicate "o= ff list". That's just how the world works.) However, IMHO we can best promote transparency and civil discourse by man= dating a public archive in this case. Brian From nobody Fri Jan 7 15:53:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD5C3A1140 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:53:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=v55BHrBh; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=G1O9O43G Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sfL_gNc9ihd0 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23C473A113D for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5F75C0127; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:53:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 07 Jan 2022 18:53:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:references:to:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=b AFBL+faUY/ma1sYJMe7pePLC4cGz+cAAdWbQsRubhM=; b=v55BHrBhXaZKl5a9C SMxnDpGFfCCy9O7xuPm893mFKAniKV2WA76YkLauPC6Tt5aJDXaP+8z9+0DwLR5P fdiAZKy0dqNuDegdw88sqllSiXImyRNSfy56WMu33rPO7kFiMJ3tOoyZH0/aejVB Cw7gdBmY2Jnyp5jr0ahu7sKCCTEHsous+a6zLkBf/u733x+L83pZOhU8AAa3nPOP HDQUHAy7BjnWQNgf8ybQVsn5JnBy2J4f9jwegn4NAdZ2i55+bTKacBH0GwBUW/Hr 6x8Gf3k1fDE49kjFU/yNDaHl17PW/L7giDA8w9TIIdvPZF6JmyXOdZziI26rlnNT IMoWw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=bAFBL+faUY/ma1sYJMe7pePLC4cGz+cAAdWbQsRub hM=; b=G1O9O43GOmMAroOx77vGVImD1QnriBLGC+9TSxAQvFqx8BX32iR/oa379 irJIVh7cYhMAzurVBgZA/pNB+j6QBgaIrg2RtOrNTIpLo/Y/HoqHEoAkZKFIC56d f8ggyrq7bWCq2NP8jgGLPKOnr23uYz1HkPs06D6YLA2qAwetlEVd77iRwGJfYe6H NZC5LEDwUq0CNr89q8eelEEbIBB4tG9+SD0y/B0Q3JQ0LNqT84zWFKLqdBrilL55 0JfA3tB6nh5ZD0rpnSsAiBEKCywR8eGx4HD3yG7U/AIg89qDufHw0zyk55JWSeUq kwFejsMAGgO9YgTKh0vIA6cWRn1+w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegfedgudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfufhfvhfgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeetgedtgfefheelte eiheevledtieetveefffdtheekhffhledtleefledtgfeigeenucffohhmrghinhepihgv thhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:53:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:53:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 23:53:36 -0000 As promised... -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Revision: 08 Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) Document date: 2022-01-07 Group: iab Pages: 31 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 Abstract: This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The model defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s8sm127779pfu.190.2022.01.07.17.13.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Jan 2022 17:13:09 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 14:13:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 01:13:15 -0000 Looks pretty good to me. One thing: > The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community call(s) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no consensus to advance the proposal. Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt? Regards Brian On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > As promised... > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Peter Saint-Andre > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Revision: 08 > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > Document date: 2022-01-07 > Group: iab > Pages: 31 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 > > Abstract: > This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The model > defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, > policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series > Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC > Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, > policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC > Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF > Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). > > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, > RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > From nobody Fri Jan 7 17:29:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1413A1395 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:29:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0zcy38R69JO for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D95713A1391 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id y11so9323147iod.6 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 17:29:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bs5bxmswtygpyCPM7TwiXp9npPLvv6AeNOKIyJxBw+A=; b=pHCrGyzLQ/oeKo6o8I3mle1AXDQCujd9zE4zypRsiSFOkx9tkhMPGomxmb1JONqgaK FN/0JCpr9P0ILdVHaAolq29kCySBDPL67G0nqjOMpOSMh/gDNrYQn7XnswXdfn4CCynr PyDfrcUwW64yLgbIUAd7fQpXnVThAcrXcOJdqNM1GRYKQ2P7jK0JR5DG9RMhxBBG/muf D/+s3rH8jENkivZ+Rw824Ouja4+mHqx+zadWGNxFA7EmrLXT4RZgSTC124EBwE7H7Fxi 13N5c8pAdb7UqlOLS+SjC6lVybOcPMe7F8DaTIumSJKWuCusy6w18kpNR2FmZqONXybd ozVw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bs5bxmswtygpyCPM7TwiXp9npPLvv6AeNOKIyJxBw+A=; b=hASxOwJ1q35sf/LsSHXeuWkp1bdcp95qm4iMsbG2Xe0dYyBc7kEjHgFQfOF5d+JX3l WNtumck+mgY5A15vmt8ihkhJ4Zw7mNa7SUTr2bkvjJvXj5JOi9NPd7Px6XujLvur8qyF wF6WonZWuJojnbkJWfOyzWEy7sTpk/RaM9C9v/kAbJlBVwn5CCnuxcBn8YvTQ1TYDamz Gw6NyCJ/ddHk4h4ooCIfN7c2/CMoaEC+3381CkZ1mj5yz7PdPa2fmAv/9SPTotGVtoQr f5/5TDGrQFoxaiD45cSK4KyR5N7iKrHcl2LLF2hOai/dUGAN6XyhzgSMCscvpHE899Yd uP/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320fnE7NP62qxH4gHMH3trkYuO9Cs+LtNf+YmbBh3Ta9asXt920 qKRhhyKNNAqcqRgrW3mJ8bGafYHXELxt6YdOwf6XvQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZJuUQpznYwLtiaDue3k73krVysLHFGX0bVp++StIovMtaG2/nxERysyqT7ucut3l4CqyNJ1PMPcqsuDsqu0A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1641:: with SMTP id y1mr2100959iow.50.1641605377266; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 17:29:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:29:01 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005fa80105d5080918" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 01:29:44 -0000 --0000000000005fa80105d5080918 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Perhaps "not rough consensus" would be even more grammatical On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:13 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Looks pretty good to me. One thing: > > > The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community call(s) > for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no consensus to advance the > proposal. > > Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt? > > Regards > Brian > > On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > As promised... > > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > To: Peter Saint-Andre > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > Revision: 08 > > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > > Document date: 2022-01-07 > > Group: iab > > Pages: 31 > > URL: > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > Status: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > > Htmlized: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > Diff: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 > > > > Abstract: > > This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The > model > > defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, > > policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series > > Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC > > Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. > Second, > > policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC > > Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF > > Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). > > > > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, > > RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000005fa80105d5080918 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perhaps "not rough consensus" would be even= more grammatical

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:13 PM Brian E Carpenter= <brian.e.carpenter@gmail= .com> wrote:
Looks pretty good to me. One thing:

> The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community call(s= ) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no consensus to advance the prop= osal.

Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt?

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> As promised...
>
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08= .txt
> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800
> From: in= ternet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the=
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A008
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC Edit= or Model (Version 3)
> Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-01-07
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 iab
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 31
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/archiv= e/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc= /draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org= /doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Diff:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif= f?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Edito= r Model.=C2=A0 The model
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Se= ries.=C2=A0 First,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy definition is the joint responsibility of t= he RFC Series
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy propos= als, and the RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such = proposals.=C2=A0 Second,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy implementation is primarily the responsibil= ity of the RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen = by the IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC= ).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document obsoletes RFC 8728.=C2=A0 This docum= ent updates RFC 7841,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>

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Rfced-future@iab.= org
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--0000000000005fa80105d5080918-- From nobody Fri Jan 7 17:40:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF7C3A13CC for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=pkzKYWwD; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=e06QRQuM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HBDjBJwtyuXy for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC9153A13CA for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159B45C00CE; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 07 Jan 2022 20:40:48 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=X o/BdCud5YtKpm8FmGHcXxq+oAJvmvCXBraP9e4iNFA=; b=pkzKYWwD1xOPjXP8n ruuT13KxEFqzo6+YWRQXGQeBHygLN0QSQlyXGw0tUMq5kY27u8EInepKUrEuf3JF ZIcPK2x915ebivGmC4HGveMfJ2BzQqAOY/rcQ7267a7SFduaKDjTTNvgSxfWfPNx zhwbrZDviwvOGSsQlsH/B5TRCWp7XVQNGmA6jK2VFmDSo7Q4k6p91w68GAyuNrUW g6/4iULV2+vD6ZUmXV1Y2xdanHLNwGy4kExTCyY8jtZaTwy6hipXM1xbOQGC/lrQ YeGympc/T52clEbk6w4m1/NbHO1I4fQBuRjydpe5CGEsf0xT3bm6mRIy1fw97bWF lGpYQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Xo/BdCud5YtKpm8FmGHcXxq+oAJvmvCXBraP9e4iN FA=; b=e06QRQuM8c2afU3RxeJkhExrnymRYzKvM8oAL3YebYHebY0VahlLxzVLq IOV4iXLfl4HCx8itYvvDTB/+UTmsJdzv0XLg378yPqqvv4AXhYpfbA8v/pee3Kmf u9V55xRaJuM2aLy4dRrWaMai3+WrjlKvSsrEyj7u4SfTDTGnrDOajk7cTFgMCSH0 hq4x3ppMgzIZaD55ru1Ggwa3T28fkJDGnfO4fmSOCEQlE8T9/0d/BX9Tkh01bLK9 UABqUTTETQ/BZCMUv1GzOOeXpuifZKKwkIhVDePfqBZtW2l8dg+4vc6Ly7cSjw5l bIn7J0wNXhoDMADTQwAiRrcMi8H0A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegfedgfeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeehffejvdffueevuefghedtkeffveekfffhveevfefhtdfh heeigfffleduhedunecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpihgrsgdrohhrghenuc evlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvght vghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:40:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9ba72e0b-4a3d-70d2-47cc-ab3c21d14d90@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:40:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 01:40:54 -0000 I'd prefer "rough consensus to the advance the proposal is lacking." On 1/7/22 6:29 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Perhaps "not rough consensus" would be even more grammatical > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:13 PM Brian E Carpenter > > wrote: > > Looks pretty good to me. One thing: > > > The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community > call(s) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no consensus to > advance the proposal. > > Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt? > > Regards >     Brian > > On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > As promised... > > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > To: Peter Saint-Andre > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted > to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name:         draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > Revision:     08 > > Title:                RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > > Document date:        2022-01-07 > > Group:                iab > > Pages:                31 > > URL: > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > > Status: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > > > Htmlized: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > > Diff: > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 > > > > > Abstract: > >      This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. > The model > >      defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series.  First, > >      policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series > >      Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and > the RFC > >      Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such > proposals.  Second, > >      policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC > >      Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF > >      Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). > > > >      This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC > 7841, > >      RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > From nobody Fri Jan 7 18:15:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A963A1533 for ; 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y3sm151508pju.37.2022.01.07.18.14.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Jan 2022 18:14:53 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> <9ba72e0b-4a3d-70d2-47cc-ab3c21d14d90@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:14:47 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9ba72e0b-4a3d-70d2-47cc-ab3c21d14d90@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 02:15:00 -0000 wfm Regards Brian On 08-Jan-22 14:40, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > I'd prefer "rough consensus to the advance the proposal is lacking." >=20 > On 1/7/22 6:29 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Perhaps "not rough consensus" would be even more grammatical >> >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:13 PM Brian E Carpenter >> > wro= te: >> >> Looks pretty good to me. One thing: >> >> > The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the communit= y >> call(s) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no consensus to >> advance the proposal. >> >> Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt? >> >> Regards >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian >> >> On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> > As promised... >> > >> > >> > -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> > Subject: New Version Notification for >> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt >> > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 >> > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> > To: Peter Saint-Andre > > >> > >> > >> > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt >> > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and poste= d >> to the >> > IETF repository. >> > >> > Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced= -model >> > Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A008 >> > Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = RFC Editor Model (Version 3) >> > Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-01-07 >> > Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = iab >> > Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = 31 >> > URL: >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.= txt >> >> > Status: >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model= / >> = >> > Htmlized: >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-mod= el >> >> > Diff: >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model= -08 >> >> > >> > Abstract: >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document specifies version 3 of the R= FC Editor Model. >> The model >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defines two high-level tasks related to th= e RFC Series.=C2=A0 First, >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy definition is the joint responsibil= ity of the RFC Series >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Working Group (RSWG), which produces polic= y proposals, and >> the RFC >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approv= es such >> proposals.=C2=A0 Second, >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy implementation is primarily the res= ponsibility of the RFC >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Production Center (RPC) as contractually o= verseen by the IETF >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Administration Limited Liability Company (= IETF LLC). >> > >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document obsoletes RFC 8728.=C2=A0 Th= is document updates RFC >> 7841, >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The IETF Secretariat >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >> >> >=20 From nobody Fri Jan 7 19:01:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742E73A1602 for ; 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Fri, 07 Jan 2022 19:01:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> <9ba72e0b-4a3d-70d2-47cc-ab3c21d14d90@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:00:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000057b35d05d50950ef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 03:01:10 -0000 --00000000000057b35d05d50950ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" LGTM On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > wfm > > Regards > Brian > > On 08-Jan-22 14:40, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > I'd prefer "rough consensus to the advance the proposal is lacking." > > > > On 1/7/22 6:29 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Perhaps "not rough consensus" would be even more grammatical > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:13 PM Brian E Carpenter > >> > > wrote: > >> > >> Looks pretty good to me. One thing: > >> > >> > The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the community > >> call(s) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no consensus to > >> advance the proposal. > >> > >> Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt? > >> > >> Regards > >> Brian > >> > >> On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> > As promised... > >> > > >> > > >> > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > >> > Subject: New Version Notification for > >> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > >> > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 > >> > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > >> > To: Peter Saint-Andre >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > >> > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted > >> to the > >> > IETF repository. > >> > > >> > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > >> > Revision: 08 > >> > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > >> > Document date: 2022-01-07 > >> > Group: iab > >> > Pages: 31 > >> > URL: > >> > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > >> < > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt> > >> > Status: > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > >> > >> > Htmlized: > >> > > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > >> < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model> > >> > Diff: > >> > > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 > >> < > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08> > >> > > >> > Abstract: > >> > This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. > >> The model > >> > defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. > First, > >> > policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC > Series > >> > Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and > >> the RFC > >> > Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such > >> proposals. Second, > >> > policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of > the RFC > >> > Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the > IETF > >> > Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). > >> > > >> > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates > RFC > >> 7841, > >> > RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The IETF Secretariat > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> Rfced-future mailing list > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > >> > >> > >> > > > > --00000000000057b35d05d50950ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LGTM

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brian E Carpenter &= lt;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.c= om> wrote:
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>= wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Looks pretty good to me. One thing:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The RSAB member believes, based on = the results of the community
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 call(s) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there = is no consensus to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advance the proposal.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should that be "no rough consensus" = to avoid any doubt?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Regards
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> As promised...
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> -------- Forwarded Message --------=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Subject: New Version Notification f= or
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -08= 00
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts= @ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfc= efdp-rfced-model-08.txt
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> has been successfully submitted by = Peter Saint-Andre and posted
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> IETF repository.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A008
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC Editor Model (Version 3)
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 2022-01-07
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 iab
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 31
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> URL:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 htt= ps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt&g= t;
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Status:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Htmlized:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model>=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Diff:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 h= ttps://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08&g= t;
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Abstract:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document s= pecifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The model
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defines two hig= h-level tasks related to the RFC Series.=C2=A0 First,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy definiti= on is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Working Group (= RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RFC
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Series Approval= Board (RSAB), which approves such
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 proposals.=C2=A0 Second,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy implemen= tation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Production Cent= er (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Administration = Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC).
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document o= bsoletes RFC 8728.=C2=A0 This document updates RFC
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7841,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 8729, and R= FC 8730.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The IETF Secretariat
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rfced-future mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.iab.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/rfced-future
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.iab.or= g/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>>
>>
>

--00000000000057b35d05d50950ef-- From nobody Fri Jan 7 19:08:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAFF3A1614 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:08:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.814 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.814 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfD9G2EfWx15 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3D2A3A1613 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4JW4m95SV9z6Gb46; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:08:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1641611305; bh=FiuRFtrf6/08WOnBmVmAwwMJsCq59wzOXkNUoVpztPo=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=cruMCLYi+h+Fmn0mq4FmwmwwYuGYMEBlz+H+WUcW2OTGf35nyAjik5M3FwdOu5v1L W6rQiEcykv/6XH/Gg4b+7iOIT5BtNvfrcKFT640jxNnJBWEU+Tk7U8vglNH0uEl4++ t0eCADq/oQ7fK33OQfkIoiSf6mmejGcH2gwgkAr4= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JW4m90N2Zz6GRG9; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:08:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8af05287-1bc7-bfe5-a893-5d117f02ef92@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:08:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <4d5c48a8-97ae-a984-bb43-3728849bfc54@gmail.com> <9ba72e0b-4a3d-70d2-47cc-ab3c21d14d90@stpeter.im> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 03:08:31 -0000 Works for me. Thanks. Joel On 1/7/2022 10:00 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > LGTM > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brian E Carpenter > > wrote: > > wfm > > Regards >     Brian > > On 08-Jan-22 14:40, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > I'd prefer "rough consensus to the advance the proposal is lacking." > > > > On 1/7/22 6:29 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Perhaps "not rough consensus" would be even more grammatical > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:13 PM Brian E Carpenter > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>      Looks pretty good to me. One thing: > >> > >>       > The RSAB member believes, based on the results of the > community > >>      call(s) for comment Section 3.2.3, that there is no > consensus to > >>      advance the proposal. > >> > >>      Should that be "no rough consensus" to avoid any doubt? > >> > >>      Regards > >>           Brian > >> > >>      On 08-Jan-22 12:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >>       > As promised... > >>       > > >>       > > >>       > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > >>       > Subject: New Version Notification for > >>      draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > >>       > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 > >>       > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > > >>       > To: Peter Saint-Andre > >>      >> > >>       > > >>       > > >>       > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > >>       > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and > posted > >>      to the > >>       > IETF repository. > >>       > > >>       > Name:         draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > >>       > Revision:     08 > >>       > Title:                RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > >>       > Document date:        2022-01-07 > >>       > Group:                iab > >>       > Pages:                31 > >>       > URL: > >>       > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > > >> > > > >>       > Status: > >>       > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > > >> > > > >>       > Htmlized: > >>       > > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > >> > > > >>       > Diff: > >>       > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 > > >> > > > >>       > > >>       > Abstract: > >>       >      This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor > Model. > >>      The model > >>       >      defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC > Series.  First, > >>       >      policy definition is the joint responsibility of > the RFC Series > >>       >      Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy > proposals, and > >>      the RFC > >>       >      Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such > >>      proposals.  Second, > >>       >      policy implementation is primarily the > responsibility of the RFC > >>       >      Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen > by the IETF > >>       >      Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). > >>       > > >>       >      This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document > updates RFC > >>      7841, > >>       >      RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > >>       > > >>       > > >>       > > >>       > > >>       > The IETF Secretariat > >>       > > >>       > > >> > >>      -- > >>      Rfced-future mailing list > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > > > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > >>      > > >> > >> > > > > From nobody Sat Jan 8 00:25:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8443A0FC6 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:25:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ORIsYTdrdWEh for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A066A3A0FC5 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.227] (77-58-144-232.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.144.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 2088P2uU067211 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:25:03 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641630303; bh=Df8WCQZVuoaIol0reFCONMwKyG5RMe5L+JIwBgPrMeo=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=TWho6ecn7OMtLx1Kj+2mKX78/qDwwHyNIy7albchJNTmPwyUkT1+IZfXAjMLqoRct C4TDMUZuwhDroZIgRTCegyqBUrWh53lT14coG8I9h6vKFsO61YcVuW1Yso3hcJ2PqY Gi82qlC4MkPQI0hOCpBicjaqTaf/dfcgMTL9cmfU= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:24:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------GLrRtPgDOll7rLh3MmiZMD6R" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] CONSENSUS CHECK: Issues 134, 143, 144, 145, 146, and 147 (Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 08:25:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------GLrRtPgDOll7rLh3MmiZMD6R Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------szd05AU52amUANp03bnYrQna"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: CONSENSUS CHECK: Issues 134,143, 144,145, 146, and 147 (Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt) References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> --------------szd05AU52amUANp03bnYrQna Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok.=C2=A0 Thanks, Peter yet again.=C2=A0 That was a lot of work.=C2= =A0 As I see it, this update has addressed the following issues:

  • Issue 132: What happens if a vote doesn't pass?
  • Issue 134: How do we update this document
  • Issue 143: public archive of RSAB
  • Issue 144: other modes of operation
  • Issue 145: CONCERN for unaddressed comments
  • Issue 146: RPC Core responsibilities

Issue 147 required no edits, at least at this time.

Please consider this message a consensus check on all issues above, except 132 for which we already had consensus on the text.=C2= =A0 Please comment no later than the 22nd of January.

Eliot

On 08.01.22 00:53, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
As promised...


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>


A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-iab-rfcefdp-r= fced-model
Revision:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 08
Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC Editor Model (= Version 3)
Document date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2022-01-07
Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 iab
Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 31
URL: https://www.ietf.org/archiv= e/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif= f?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08

Abstract:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Mo= del.=C2=A0 The model
=C2=A0=C2=A0 defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series= =2E=C2=A0 First,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 policy definition is the joint responsibility of the R= FC Series
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals,= and the RFC
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such prop= osals.=C2=A0 Second,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 policy implementation is primarily the responsibility = of the RFC
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by t= he IETF
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC).

=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document obsoletes RFC 8728.=C2=A0 This document = updates RFC 7841,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.




The IETF Secretariat


--------------2VYdF4fC7RRV32UGzxKhPDsP-- --------------szd05AU52amUANp03bnYrQna-- --------------GLrRtPgDOll7rLh3MmiZMD6R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmHZSlsFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNU dAgAxtZrTrnyDCo4il4PXgGqd9zaOXEcSDyFxHDUcWPbggHBpUFQXtAAUemp4urgzBy8lFYija5N GxE/7synWVnO9kJq8bhaWy5dyL5Doyvea7V93yMjoN/zqS2OLPlrf9M6gDkTI5FyGTpc11r3invB ago9xcE/pbOspjhiSx333IZ5tnCrlIG6wbCfGpJ30q/vWuC1EBiqYKy1rfb1ikJm+P4+6jfD8lXy 8uAkrZXR3+whYDNAfsuOhTcLiGiF5/a+bASS81P4Kve6unaw53twvIpn+XyBYIGc1Ktc0HxUuQJr VE/aRf2ldxoA1K6xe80b/9crqvC8lryFFkrYsUXGyw== =M13j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------GLrRtPgDOll7rLh3MmiZMD6R-- From nobody Sat Jan 8 00:44:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 14:19:54 -0000 --------------MAUBKq0j90YNkL41zS2VoZaK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------LRXhRoL31SDna0N1p6buwD3b"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Wes Hardaker , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: --------------LRXhRoL31SDna0N1p6buwD3b Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F0WRi2N9DU3gDFTwiuNDQqet" --------------F0WRi2N9DU3gDFTwiuNDQqet 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm2679770pfc.61.2022.01.08.12.44.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:44:37 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: John C Klensin References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 09:44:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 20:44:45 -0000 > To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the ED has=20 > a proposed search committee How about specifying that (for the initial RSCE) the four existing stream= managers should be consulted? That avoids waiting for formal RSAB creatio= n but has the same effect. For any future RSCE searches, the RSAB will be available for consultation. Regards Brian On 08-Jan-22 21:44, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klensin > initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed.=C2=A0 At th= is > time, I would like to ask if others believe that there is a concern.=C2= =A0 If > not, we will not make any changes. >=20 > To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the ED has= > a proposed search committee.=C2=A0 I suggested that the consultation co= uld > occur earlier.=C2=A0 Jay pointed out that any such change would delay h= iring > of the RSCE and didn't think the change was necessary, as he is > consulting this group. >=20 > One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the RSWG to= > address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring.=C2=A0 That w= ould > of course require rough consensus and approval. >=20 > Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become operative > until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed. >=20 > There may be other ways forward.=C2=A0 Please indicate your preference.= >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Jan 9 00:23:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8343A0D5D for ; 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Sun, 9 Jan 2022 03:23:43 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 19:23:40 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2022 08:23:50 -0000 Hi Peter, Thanks. Looking through the diffs, I noticed a few things: * "The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings" -- = this wording could be interpreted to prevent hybrid meetings, or online = participation in in-person meetings. * "The RSAB consists primarily of certain voting members. As specified = herein, the RSAB also includes certain non-voting members." -- this is = quite wordy... * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the = Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion on = the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. Also, it = makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method of handling = vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, To ensure the = smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only of the stream = representatives enumerated above." * "Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged = among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived..." -- I think = the "or exchanged among all members of the RSAB" clause is impractical = and ineffective, and it should be removed. I don't feel strongly about = it to formally object, though. Cheers, > On 8 Jan 2022, at 10:53 am, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > As promised... >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Peter Saint-Andre >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Revision: 08 > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > Document date: 2022-01-07 > Group: iab > Pages: 31 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The = model > defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, > policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series > Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC > Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. = Second, > policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC > Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF > Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). >=20 > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, > RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Jan 9 00:32:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596333A0EBF for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:31:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=QzgT6lya; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=X9aiDA/1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qxevV9T6Qfyl for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:31:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F7AD3A0EC0 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:31:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754E53200E31 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 02:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 09 Jan 2022 02:40:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject; s=fm1; bh=Ie9eCrLY87J CmmZp4Ern3EGJivYGuzERNwPRF0mDMs0=; b=QzgT6lya5js8QAIbcH8lRBHNF7+ J+T/wFe53wKmEZEk46iLMLNB1JzBmO+lL2eC4aaoKhctAJA29qxZ3zUbzqdX5hLl 9YAXb5AcL3+QDp0USTQGX3OVc8f56ZLHWCYKtNSzXr/gi2v2GsRA5h0hiaqwx8Ox iAZ3GSiQ47UaB5wUKcaJJ2S9whNxBvwKgqEoMYyW+ipIuUKEG4TjOyA42+YYbMi4 s9C7IJ2z1Lp//k2+PZJMHAqHf35neJL9uR2GZ+skB0fJVa+D48cQY+pbFkDovWuY OJaoZ3/pd393IjaUNVFijS7d1y4LLrYOzTaQsG4CLrVVBcyPnTI6Yznw8aw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:from:mime-version:subject:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=Ie9eCrLY87JCmmZp4Ern3EGJivYGuzERNwPRF0mDMs0=; b=X9aiDA/1 1RGCSm1W2ImVIcTJ842FW/PWu2flCipnIeMVeNNiKunFB3a5WWyT2eE0H6w2dJKF 0KMjJ9wj+ez/vawUA1a77nfLDt/qnG/Gs1d8QZuyxAiherItgTBALmouvPLkkflU 2/pgdQmTm27sI9u8M6xoxPTUcQbeRnj0Brx4OqsTPF353tbfQcxyslZH2gbQf3a9 DsS3zlQ0Oa1k+OSOlCstP8LKv2zJyGsOEAW7N3aNN4wNGGrpv7gstFqfPDOQ5QWj C6rBWStZOwcDrJQcGdWg8Hf3cSWXun3yckfDgLZpZpB4MFjsouGbYfeA2DCXbHps W+/mUdep2zOEcw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegjedgtdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucfpohcuuggrthgvuchfihgvlhguucdlgeelmdenuc fjughrpegtggfhvffusegrtddtredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpeftvghpohhsihhtohhrhicu tegtthhivhhithihucfuuhhmmhgrrhihuceuohhtuceoughopghnohhtpghrvghplhihse hmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeefvdduteejvdefkeehieevuefg fefhteetveegffekffefteffvdelheduieetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtg homhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedvnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegu ohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 02:40:21 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============3104417423267057928==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: rfced-future@iab.org Message-Id: <20220109083140.9F7AD3A0EC0@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:31:40 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2022 08:31:46 -0000 --===============3104417423267057928== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events=20 Issues ------ * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+7/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC21) 7 issues created: - Different process for temporary RSCE volunteers? (by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/152=20 - Consultation regarding the RSCE selection committee (by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/151=20 - Make clear what happens when a vote is taken and the proposal doesn't p= ass (by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/149 [Editor= ial]=20 - Does the RPC create and preserve records (by ekr) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147=20 - Core RPC responsibilities (by ekr) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/146=20 - CONCERN for unaddressed comments (by ekr) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/145=20 - Other modes of operation (by ekr) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144=20 8 issues received 21 new comments: - #149 Make clear what happens when a vote is taken and the proposal does= n't pass (1 by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/149 [Editor= ial]=20 - #147 Does the RPC create and preserve records (2 by ekr, elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147=20 - #146 Core RPC responsibilities (4 by ekr, elear, stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/146=20 - #145 CONCERN for unaddressed comments (3 by ekr, elear, stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/145=20 - #144 Other modes of operation (6 by ekr, elear, stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/144=20 - #143 Is there a public archive for the RSAB email list? (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/143=20 - #134 How do we update This document? (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/134=20 - #132 What happens if the vote doesn't pass? (3 by elear, stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/132 [Consen= sus]=20 4 issues closed: - Who resolves disputes when they need to be timely? https://github.com/i= ntarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/94 [Consensus]=20 - Basis for appeals of RSAB decisions https://github.com/intarchboard/pro= gram-rfced-future/issues/93 [Consensus]=20 - What happens if the vote doesn't pass? https://github.com/intarchboard/= program-rfced-future/issues/132 [Consensus]=20 - Make clear what happens when a vote is taken and the proposal doesn't p= ass https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/149 [Editor= ial]=20 Pull requests ------------- * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 2 pull requests submitted: - Avoid confusion between RSAB and RSAG. (by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/150=20 - Some hopefully minor editorial comments. (by ekr) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148=20 2 pull requests merged: - Avoid confusion between RSAB and RSAG. https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/150=20 - Some hopefully minor editorial comments. https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/148=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future --===============3104417423267057928== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity= Summary)

Sunday January 09, 2022

Events

Issues

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+7/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC21)

7 issues created:

8 issues received 21 new comments:

4 issues closed:

Pull requests

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

2 pull requests submitted:

2 pull requests merged:

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--===============3104417423267057928==-- From nobody Sun Jan 9 00:59:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7F73A1017 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:59:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0BIH1Wrjmr7 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CC303A1016 for ; 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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------nk47B0zZUtMyexhkuuq4wnKD" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2022 08:59:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------nk47B0zZUtMyexhkuuq4wnKD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------sajlNReYKzZqKyBe1yktyxjn"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <756d6495-700f-04a2-da42-be730e4f3d5d@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> --------------sajlNReYKzZqKyBe1yktyxjn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Hi Mark,

Just on one point:

On 09.01.22 09:23, Mark Nottingham wrote:
Hi Peter,

Thanks. Looking through the diffs, I noticed a few things:

* "The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings" -- th=
is wording could be interpreted to prevent hybrid meetings, or online par=
ticipation in in-person meetings.

Do you have a good wording suggestion for this, bearing in mind the text below?

   The RSWG may decide by rough consensus =
to use additional tooling
   (e.g., GitHub as specified in [RFC8874]), forms of communication, and
   working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are consistent
   with [RFC2418].

Thanks,

Eliot


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Sun, 9 Jan 2022 04:21:50 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <756d6495-700f-04a2-da42-be730e4f3d5d@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:21:47 +1100 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <756d6495-700f-04a2-da42-be730e4f3d5d@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2022 09:21:59 -0000 Not particularly. The previous text was fairly matter-of-fact, = explaining the nature of meetings, whereas this (through use of = "empowered" and the seemingly exclusive "or") seems more prohibitive. = You are right to point out that it can be varied, so maybe it's isn't = such a big deal. Cheers, > On 9 Jan 2022, at 7:59 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi Mark, >=20 > Just on one point: >=20 > On 09.01.22 09:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Hi Peter, >>=20 >> Thanks. Looking through the diffs, I noticed a few things: >>=20 >> * "The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings" = -- this wording could be interpreted to prevent hybrid meetings, or = online participation in in-person meetings. >>=20 > Do you have a good wording suggestion for this, bearing in mind the = text below? >=20 >=20 >> The RSWG may decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling >> (e.g., GitHub as specified in [ >> RFC8874 >> ]), forms of communication, and >> working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are = consistent >> with [ >> RFC2418 >> ]. >>=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Jan 9 04:04:41 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B0A3A134C for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 04:04:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at 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--------------bYekqzKCzPHS9HahLVticG08-- --------------8fMDI1ZGGA3abwgzGzo6xL41 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmHaz0cFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qF Ng/7BYgYoVO5nBPH/Kec7Rgv5XKvtDUVQnpk125csFrjVIMv3hkL5ero9RamCceffY9zFMbuA8hz GO05omYiwMkZUoKiizTg1LT+0KMJXW5D32bo+A5SUjzio39tRxidBKdPOUM9BWMJro69XVX9NcK1 FzqZfXghJIdKOUWXVeDpfUEH5k8pD0uDeZ0BaRCSvSOQsF+mU0EkY63aP3veoiUrtRqUOPbtH+jC ByM0DWUd9wnxc2Cs9y+P36GheGc/JSh9zIc/m72eVKzMwMrLxGIMiyN9RJa++TdJvgczOgf/VwlP 8+/exMhsV54m0n/8gKtjfnX/0FnpfQeoUjkX03vxOlV8K6DOW4ITXyThYJ31xyfKpL6goEyYfAbE NGtdb3oYDfXKlEmDUXpbGyPPDKnN5xl7z33vUIV+Wj0V31qAxZ3oN3U88Mi5XEdOtDO3NNKw/i1Y seZFPDlR0SZrXTGvbnj0eF7ZlzOD1aAz5fqkb95jvFfIeqjV2qdT3/+xjb1/GO95j80TyL6wDfSJ 2O5kpH8BxADMPYA07+YWHv2LGs7tet+/8pEMw1yFF6RxD19pUlZRYzsxhDds7VvGhHZYd6HUydnc WJSjAUtq52lp53ypXXq3XrQxlcHKmKsZVBa7yVhS1BZeiX9m3vcgFxnBpjqQ50f/A2OWSCmNRsH1 KIQ= =splk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------8fMDI1ZGGA3abwgzGzo6xL41-- From nobody Sun Jan 9 17:23:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3443A0FB5 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 17:23:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.612 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.612 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t5sm3545341qtp.60.2022.01.09.17.23.01 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Jan 2022 17:23:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:23:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 01:23:07 -0000 On 1/8/2022 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, > > I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klensin > initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed.  At this > time, I would like to ask if others believe that there is a concern.  > If not, we will not make any changes. > > To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the ED > has a proposed search committee.  I suggested that the consultation > could occur earlier.  Jay pointed out that any such change would delay > hiring of the RSCE and didn't think the change was necessary, as he is > consulting this group. > > One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the RSWG > to address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring.  That > would of course require rough consensus and approval. > > Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become operative > until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed. > > There may be other ways forward.  Please indicate your preference. > > Eliot > > I'd like to resolve this in favor of having the RSAB (or initially the stream managers as I think Brian suggested) having the option to chime in with the LLC formation of the selection committee.  Doing so covers the case where we end up with the possibility of a volunteer RSCE where there isn't a lot for the LLC to do on the back end (e.g., contracting).  Long term we've told the LLC to focus on the business aspects of the IETF, and having at least the possibility of non-LLC input into the pre-selection process seems to me to make some sense regardless of whether the RSCE is hired or a volunteer. I don't think this needs to be any more formal than an hour long chat between the RSAB and the ED/LLC Board on the ED's general approach to the process.  And then letting that go forward.  E.g. less specificity is a plus. Later, Mike From nobody Sun Jan 9 23:20:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BCC3A0B11 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:20:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8rbf6J9MvaI for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B9693A0B0C for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:3861:f1d9:3418:9369]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 345421D255A; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:20:16 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641799216; bh=G/UJPiN+y+v/M/X+xnk1QMP82Ho1SJ4VhJckcmZjgig=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Ifn0gQE9TWWyP67D/tMJ/5jm+jIOqIZe6LhjEhaRUeDm8JwpxwnpthT6KAnawzA81 o6hN3SJvjr4fK2pAYyULi/W/My7oVpC7W1SaA0wLBXau+i5NNP3k+eToeJRb9yw8l/ GN6cV+qHdHENiT/QAw0nABB7Wmrsv6rjBPMOYQYI= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_72C81001-7D53-49A3-9B05-97263193F7B0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:20:14 +0200 Cc: Wes Hardaker , =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Peter Saint-Andre Message-Id: <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-MailScanner-ID: 345421D255A.A29C4 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 07:20:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_72C81001-7D53-49A3-9B05-97263193F7B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-8, at 16:19, Stephen Farrell = wrote: > +1, I'd support whatever "main" list is used by the RSAB > being publicly archived. It's ok if they have one or more > private lists too (same as IAB/IESG "confirmation" lists > and similar) but making the main list archive public is a > good improvement. I'd like to come back to Mirja's question: why do we think we need a = public mailing list archive in addition to all the things that are = already public, such as minutes, etc., is needed? I can understand that the pendulum is swinging towards maximum = transparency now, given the closed nature of the RSOC. But as Mirja has outlined, a public archive does put somewhat of a = burden on the operation of the RSAB, because one will have to much more = carefully word each message to the list. This may be an acceptable tradeoff for this particular list, but it's = also setting a precedent in the IETF, which makes me nervous. Thanks, Lars (as an individual) --Apple-Mail=_72C81001-7D53-49A3-9B05-97263193F7B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHb3i4ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfYDQ//RSbbSzZ0oDQm963LhgQBallX0ibvb+H4BVjmRTsTimEUg7L7rIztott2 v/Cid4TZ2QBCq0Hg/S4ThD9MdR5aRIA++mM1cTlHrbYbf13TuPRmW5tHGyIIir6m oWe/qs0VSTwcXjbSZ+ihZ/fFTmWzzayLpobNAK26HVbmSILgeLZCAkx9JS1X/fGG pCtWpChT/E5lgF6P28IQrsGI2o5/EgjV26Y/UGiC0TBzWKOwwBifbrowStLCzgEL /EfdGmtBq32p/Ql9dubw+pTDJ/fh1HRh2HOHpg1oYGLalvz7tU1AjdPPLT/klAbx HDpFngirdqjR0LoxAmhXLMjz/hEjOnT2omAV8zalOXn1EmYejUz1yeaK6lz27EuY VxanG/1Iiw5mZedkoH5k2OXRCogBhCajygVKMQbq2ABy7B5t95nfGJoTuCsqbDGC An9OfuDdavK8alKvFgTwvR/nDIUE2j18RiytHl8xcJDLM/LjyGL8kHQuw/MHdqve XxUAVQkgbE0EzYY9lVu9Yk4pVQbyvBiiBY8/u7UdIuXgVOMVYLlcc8Kwz/5DbXii yThHqALjHw9NJ0qXNJ1S6HQgU/5nCIwgKFgOhHE7pxKLno6DUOMWk8pZfOR8hKRt +q3H5+UMLzxuQNoThJJ9v8NVN89Fg3LGpJcvbZMPGWiA/+2e++0= =2TJZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_72C81001-7D53-49A3-9B05-97263193F7B0-- From nobody Sun Jan 9 23:31:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D4D3A0B9B for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:31:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QJMJOloqvFDV for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 547E23A0BB3 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:3861:f1d9:3418:9369]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 623571D255A; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:31:22 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641799882; bh=fMGMXUyuA6nduxkbdr4/6I6Bjqboy6awuQikCXQc/4A=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=tfTXmtmfl+a5+w8JKTL3jMpl+6cbFFC4tO/37jj4FszIQrZX/tSQV/nJttpUVa+N/ evEZ5W7EWLJRKrLHeCUUzDL4kI/ZmhNhSwIZrsuA+YNKBtA/UA2AuHRlzN8JXUUu9u Io5oikP4+VgfBfVYGjThOTu3gTCsi4jr9IHdyCgE= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9B70B63F-FE76-4835-8CB1-230111B44D34"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <73eeadd1-9cff-2df8-fe2b-664580acdfad@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:31:21 +0200 Cc: John C Klensin , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , rfced-future@iab.org Message-Id: <262D7023-B90B-4F9C-B5E4-AACF8880E592@eggert.org> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> <73eeadd1-9cff-2df8-fe2b-664580acdfad@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-MailScanner-ID: 623571D255A.A2CD3 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RSWG meetings and IETF meetings (Re: Issue 144) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 07:31:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9B70B63F-FE76-4835-8CB1-230111B44D34 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-7, at 2:35, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Something like this: >=20 > The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings, > which should be announced with sufficient notice to enable broad > participation; the [IESG Guidance on Face-to-Face and Virtual Interim > = Meetings](https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetin= gs-guidance-2016-01-16/) > provides a reasonable baseline. In-person meetings should include > provision for effective online participation for those unable to > to attend in person. with regards to meeting during the IETF week, that agenda is under the = overall control of the IESG. If the RSWG chairs would decide to request for an unreasonable amount of = meeting time or make other requests that are difficult/costly/etc. to = fulfill, is the IESG authorized to decline those requests? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_9B70B63F-FE76-4835-8CB1-230111B44D34 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHb4MkACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfO2g/9EHxbNW4mpQumLr4jXEkFFZzS21maYCgzLcswcMgF6m8e6Xsbu35lZhMT uMC98O+kTtNfyfU4mLoWtqmDPQ6BbGGUE79oNc9WAwEDL6sQwy2TOrrDjgJbkfNq UEasXQoCxH7VTEagDGlZgS3PLzO0/S5SDJTOR2YiBlDJ5izbA5dlT1sRgzrS4YTO c26J5zsXUz4tMNhtzJ0jaI9ModkBHr7OgXj6P0zHJ0yFXlM6X//qGzXV74oM1KYV Hmd/HKFjZr2dSx1nSt9SzEUPuKfTLuCh+LFLIT0nYfezKQyipYvtTAI0cCv8c+sV D7ysyD4otFpqNQQ6lXrYN74qK0boBv8O8VKL761tnzF3sPw8lpqn4CNpeUIZIiO1 1097LqXg7nJXK1YFrbtsukj1sBsg/p/ut6D8nQz82RSklbIdzLPerpLgoeJw9Cnp J6i5rngRCPKoAqz9QqQakOKmnupHGUSdBndfPExyYwpn1LKb/F39EzvgYlG/6SX6 FfhoYq66iOToy6LucadLMZ+e0xwhE3CxrWEb6WkaE9+tlUwlDS8LhzWhe7JKZn5R j4BcwjzJwxHjTS1vKcBflzVH+cKc/1bxpHOcR3E8NpAgvpkh/nHfoCNLHwpvouE+ XrxQk5XcISElrvg9ACqBCYOshURER2pJwZmR3CPagqL99uizXT8= =UwtO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9B70B63F-FE76-4835-8CB1-230111B44D34-- From nobody Mon Jan 10 00:26:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316DD3A11CE for ; 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the [IESG Guidance on Face-to-Face and Virtual Interim >> Meetings](https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/) >> provides a reasonable baseline. In-person meetings should include >> provision for effective online participation for those unable to >> to attend in person. > > with regards to meeting during the IETF week, that agenda is under the overall control of the IESG. > > If the RSWG chairs would decide to request for an unreasonable amount of meeting time or make other requests that are difficult/costly/etc. to fulfill, is the IESG authorized to decline those requests? Good points. I think that yes, with respect to meeting time, the RSWG should be treated like an IETF WG or an IRTF RG. I can't imagine what difficult/costly requests they would make, but again, they shouldn't be special. Also, for costs, my guess is that ultimately the LLC is responsible, which brings everything together. The reason I suggested that in-person meetings be collocated was that it will be way cheaper than having an independent meeting, and will attract more people to the work of the RSWG. I can't imagine any other collocation that would work better. The only problem might be that it wouldn't attract any 'outside customers' of the RFC Series, but pretty much any alternative would have the same problem. Regards, Martin. > Thanks, > Lars > From nobody Mon Jan 10 00:46:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094003A0773 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 00:46:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=OSWvUlOo; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=WGKTLnG2 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IZ6Hvf5rg0A2 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 00:46:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 641DB3A0763 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 00:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FC95C00C4 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 03:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 03:46:06 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=N2cpBbG2XIJez8f7jeAchnZ+sC1Ws6I l9sSqJazdBP4=; b=OSWvUlOoJaYXciShPnqVklIGm4Qd5ihw1AoayWkPoNyuIKT kiFVZOZ9YmiYeKTt/PqebJrSqjasB2ZwzMfL79FEIqBa9v8usbPTPJ5UAFIKESRR biRyjIhRh7oLUOveiIVQfzFX4i5SCe9G0ikayNp68gu7CVpmGhE/s1y948mJRbPD TG2vGWN8qgubY6/kOGMbXxT1WpVWoY24zzhpj/PcLmjx2e5gURBQT1slDTCKmoFS 6IXmhPWAWfipxJMp8GK2wh+Fo+ig/QNrNGK3Q1X9gL+XhPTw9Dbo7uvLECPPn+CO V65QmbmRrCTlc0tVx5eHWKaI/Yc81Ts6t5lyBjQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=N2cpBb G2XIJez8f7jeAchnZ+sC1Ws6Il9sSqJazdBP4=; b=WGKTLnG2k+y9jN2FzKjuDh Ue31944wD/V3G2p8pHwwtp3T5VpdZtjHE6fVj9mc6eYHOPxE3M2bbxnzGR7O3N8O llHJ27Pw6L7XtMB5qwfvrDbc5jwA3EHjQ9s3P/MunjxrPEmv9wC90p4Gg1aLOXbi 5nbzJz7EpRQBfUQzroze0XctQFBYGPgB2t7IERoFKed7VztC2aDoUahjdr1x0YBb c41LjeVreUTStnB1kkjzRVRq2XHmdLBdBqEnRvcTycJZxODLu7vjZhFKo6hRc/Kv jS0/F4/2sW/8DWxDjVeVqHvWNlgG0UQ/E6Myh3C7JN8PU6cKo5647kSPm6J2Z7OA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudegledguddvjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesth dtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeetueeikedtkeelfe ekvefhkeffvedvvefgkefgleeugfdvjeejgeffieegtdejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnh gvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A772D3C0146; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 03:46:05 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-4527-g032417b6d6-fm-20220109.002-g032417b6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <34626d6f-9503-4be6-ac6c-08e14c71d4dd@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:45:45 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:46:12 -0000 On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, at 18:20, Lars Eggert wrote: > But as Mirja has outlined, a public archive does put somewhat of a > burden on the operation of the RSAB, because one will have to much more > carefully word each message to the list. > > This may be an acceptable tradeoff for this particular list, but it's > also setting a precedent in the IETF, which makes me nervous. My opinion only: this is not a group that deals with personnel issues in its normal course of business. There are few other reasons to conduct private business. Public archives seem totally fine here. From nobody Mon Jan 10 05:59:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13C93A0CBD for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 05:59:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBBGcQj8QBe4 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 05:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D15503A0CB7 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 05:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n6vCY-000LtF-Ua; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:59:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:59:04 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Lars Eggert , Peter Saint-Andre cc: =?UTF-8?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst=22?= , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <59923C5AB2DB7352FB146561@PSB> In-Reply-To: <262D7023-B90B-4F9C-B5E4-AACF8880E592@eggert.org> References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> <73eeadd1-9cff-2df8-fe2b-664580acdfad@stpeter.im> <262D7023-B90B-4F9C-B5E4-AACF8880E592@eggert.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RSWG meetings and IETF meetings (Re: Issue 144) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:59:27 -0000 --On Monday, January 10, 2022 09:31 +0200 Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2022-1-7, at 2:35, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: >> Something like this: >> >> The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only >> meetings, which should be announced with sufficient notice to >> enable broad participation; the [IESG Guidance on >> Face-to-Face and Virtual Interim >> Meetings](https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/i >> nterim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/) provides a reasonable >> baseline. In-person meetings should include provision for >> effective online participation for those unable to to attend >> in person. > > with regards to meeting during the IETF week, that agenda is > under the overall control of the IESG. > > If the RSWG chairs would decide to request for an unreasonable > amount of meeting time or make other requests that are > difficult/costly/etc. to fulfill, is the IESG authorized to > decline those requests? Lars, Having read Martin's later note but finding this more convenient for a reply... As you certainly know, the other reason why the IESG controls the agenda is to mitigate nasty conflicts that would prevent key people from attending. That topic is not addressed in https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/interim-meetings-guidance-2016-01-16/ (cited in Peter's draft) because it is strictly about Interim Meetings. I assume that the IESG (or at least a relevant AD if they were in the same Area) would intervene if two WG Interims were scheduled for the same time slot. That statement does not say that, it might be worth the IESG taking another look. Wrt f2f meetings during the IETF week (not covered by that statement at all), while I think not treating this the same way an IAB open meeting or an IRTF meeting is treated would rapidly lead to such conflicts, my impression is that the IESG and the Secretariat gave up control of "side meetings" that do not use IETF-provided space (but are not on the agenda) some years ago. So we actually have four cases during the meeting week: (1) IETF WG meetings (covered by the referenced statement) (2) Other meetings that are subject to IESG approval that appear on the (main) agenda (not covered by the referenced statement but subject to IESG approval) (3) Other meetings that use IETF resources (obviously subject to Secretariat and/or LLC approval). Most of these show up on supplements to the agenda even though no formal procedure requires such supplements and I'm not sure all of them do. I don't know how much the IESG is consulted about the scheduling of such meetings, but hope you are at least aware of them and able to offer advice. Note that, for example, IAB breakfasts and assorted Area meetings probably fall into this category. There is also a fourth case: (4) Meetings that occur around the IETF week but outside its nominal time slots. In addition to assorted breakfast and lunch slots that would fall into (3) above, I'm thinking about evening or dinner meetings that do not draw on IETF resources and that occur after the last meeting time on the agenda and, more important, after the last slot on Friday. Because (3) may fall outside of IESG authority although within that of the LLC and (4) presumably falls outside the authority of either, Peter's rather simple draft text and reference to that statement are clearly (at least to me) insufficient for reasons beyond those you suggest. Probably an explicit comment should be made that the scheduling of such meetings should ("MUST" ?) be coordinated with the IESG and LLC. What I don't know is whether it is necessary to get into "approved". Doing so would significantly clutter the lines of authority so I hope that, if everyone knows about the meetings of everyone else, it is reasonable to assume that good sense would be sufficient to prevent conflicts of schedules and of other types. best, john . 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:23:22 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Martin Thomson , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives Thread-Index: AQHYAp36NkuGGM2xGEif4VnAUcicE6xWvhwAgAA/h4CAABJ3AIAAtJaAgABmtYCAAVi8AIACr3oAgAAX5ICAAAqCgA== Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:23:22 +0000 Message-ID: <5A4271DD-8F92-443C-8AD2-B869CA33109A@akamai.com> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <34626d6f-9503-4be6-ac6c-08e14c71d4dd@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <34626d6f-9503-4be6-ac6c-08e14c71d4dd@beta.fastmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22010502 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2157A8887AC1DF459021F26F469D3134@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2022-01-10_06:2022-01-10, 2022-01-10 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201100101 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: AiY-v7tFCltwd6PkRzWT0sE4lFoN2qWj X-Proofpoint-GUID: AiY-v7tFCltwd6PkRzWT0sE4lFoN2qWj X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-10_06,2022-01-10_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201100101 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:23:32 -0000 TGFyczoNCiAgICA+IFRoaXMgbWF5IGJlIGFuIGFjY2VwdGFibGUgdHJhZGVvZmYgZm9yIHRoaXMg cGFydGljdWxhciBsaXN0LCBidXQgaXQncyANCiAgICA+IGFsc28gc2V0dGluZyBhIHByZWNlZGVu dCBpbiB0aGUgSUVURiwgd2hpY2ggbWFrZXMgbWUgbmVydm91cy4NCg0KSSB0aGluayBpdCdzIGEg Z29vZCAtLSBuYXksIGV4Y2VsbGVudCAtLSBwcmVjZWRlbnQgdG8gc2V0LiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgd2Vs bC11bmRlcnN0b29kIG1lY2hhbmlzbXMgdG8gYmUgdXNlZCB3aGVuIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbnMgbmVl ZCB0byBiZSBwcml2YXRlOyBleGVjdXRpdmUgc2Vzc2lvbiwgb2ZmLXRoZS1yZWNvcmQsICJvZmYt bGlzdCIgZW1haWxzLCBldGMuIGV0Yy4NCg0KTWFydGluOg0KPiAgICBNeSBvcGluaW9uIG9ubHk6 IHRoaXMgaXMgbm90IGEgZ3JvdXAgdGhhdCBkZWFscyB3aXRoIHBlcnNvbm5lbCBpc3N1ZXMgaW4g aXRzIG5vcm1hbCBjb3Vyc2Ugb2YgYnVzaW5lc3MuICBUaGVyZSBhcmUgZmV3IG90aGVyIHJlYXNv bnMgdG8gY29uZHVjdCBwcml2YXRlIGJ1c2luZXNzLiAgUHVibGljIGFyY2hpdmVzIHNlZW0gdG90 YWxseSBmaW5lIGhlcmUuDQoNCkNvbXBsZXRlbHkgYWdyZWUuDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Jan 10 08:47:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0870E3A157D for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:46:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> From: Wes Hardaker Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:46:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Stephen Farrell , =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059759205d53d153a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:46:59 -0000 --00000000000059759205d53d153a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Top posting because... phone... One major reason for needing public archives is to document discussions for referring future questions and people back to discussions where topics have already been discussed. We do this in ietf working groups all the time. -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI On Sun, Jan 9, 2022, 23:20 Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2022-1-8, at 16:19, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > +1, I'd support whatever "main" list is used by the RSAB > > being publicly archived. It's ok if they have one or more > > private lists too (same as IAB/IESG "confirmation" lists > > and similar) but making the main list archive public is a > > good improvement. > > I'd like to come back to Mirja's question: why do we think we need a > public mailing list archive in addition to all the things that are already > public, such as minutes, etc., is needed? > > I can understand that the pendulum is swinging towards maximum > transparency now, given the closed nature of the RSOC. > > But as Mirja has outlined, a public archive does put somewhat of a burden > on the operation of the RSAB, because one will have to much more carefully > word each message to the list. > > This may be an acceptable tradeoff for this particular list, but it's also > setting a precedent in the IETF, which makes me nervous. > > Thanks, > Lars (as an individual) > > --00000000000059759205d53d153a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Top posting because... phone...

One major reason for needing public archives is to docu= ment discussions for referring future questions and people back to discussi= ons where topics have already been discussed. We do this in ietf working gr= oups all the time.

--
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022, 23:20 L= ars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> w= rote:
Hi,

On 2022-1-8, at 16:19, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie= > wrote:
> +1, I'd support whatever "main" list is used by the RSAB=
> being publicly archived. It's ok if they have one or more
> private lists too (same as IAB/IESG "confirmation" lists
> and similar) but making the main list archive public is a
> good improvement.

I'd like to come back to Mirja's question: why do we think we need = a public mailing list archive in addition to all the things that are alread= y public, such as minutes, etc., is needed?

I can understand that the pendulum is swinging towards maximum transparency= now, given the closed nature of the RSOC.

But as Mirja has outlined, a public archive does put somewhat of a burden o= n the operation of the RSAB, because one will have to much more carefully w= ord each message to the list.

This may be an acceptable tradeoff for this particular list, but it's a= lso setting a precedent in the IETF, which makes me nervous.

Thanks,
Lars (as an individual)

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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ls6sm10418590pjb.33.2022.01.10.11.41.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:41:40 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <34626d6f-9503-4be6-ac6c-08e14c71d4dd@beta.fastmail.com> <5A4271DD-8F92-443C-8AD2-B869CA33109A@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 08:41:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5A4271DD-8F92-443C-8AD2-B869CA33109A@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:41:44 -0000 On 11-Jan-22 03:23, Salz, Rich wrote: > Lars: > > This may be an acceptable tradeoff for this particular list, but it's > > also setting a precedent in the IETF, which makes me nervous. I understand Lars' hesitation, but I dispute that this sets a precedent in the IETF. This is not an IETF discussion. The RSAB is not comparable to either the IAB or the IESG and the arguments are totally different. I'd be happy to discuss any questions about IETF lists over on an IETF list. > I think it's a good -- nay, excellent -- precedent to set. There are well-understood mechanisms to be used when conversations need to be private; executive session, off-the-record, "off-list" emails, etc. etc. As I've already pointed out, the RSAB *will* use such mechanisms when they need to, whatever we do or don't write in the present document. > Martin: >> My opinion only: this is not a group that deals with personnel issues in its normal course of business. There are few other reasons to conduct private business. Public archives seem totally fine here. > > Completely agree. Neither will the RSAB need to discuss legal, contractual or financial details. Its remit is really quite narrow, and as Wes said, referring back to earlier discussions may be very useful. To be complete, there's one issue where privacy would matter: Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee. That would be a case where off-list discussion would be needed. Regards Brian From nobody Mon Jan 10 11:46:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D433A0FBF for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sOohhdnhVMe7 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F62E3A0FB8 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id oa15so13958740pjb.4 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SRJhfFbubAxxKFwsvsy4UvDq1hVj1FU781JNCZdoNdk=; b=jdy+FsMOsZJ9+l3nUxWGr9dm3wVjX6jhB9LwUH5rpfBIIm4syOL6sarc5gZUGh6RrX QFcccSH/HvX/C3EHWRafjYp3AFFI3L2dIq8g2EV4DN6yAH1W9x2LsQD7G3dx7XSUPfkX OJZEjY5yQ2gRiVjcV/p4xqgq395f8DQOK3rXOR2lfFcaN+tj33ifK9q69OQZYpBfVjQg JMcBuXJiSP8qOu4PKFk1MONvRdqYA4lbCOBDUkK09FYm77yRUXUUy5P3UzUmdxIOOC10 EcDMikjZciQAURTc4yv+5U1OlfWCo/gWZbd4SAHM86LElCQBrhuLfra7+zsL7Bm5ytOX RebQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SRJhfFbubAxxKFwsvsy4UvDq1hVj1FU781JNCZdoNdk=; b=pX25s63aCdk3yiOHRow5cBYjcVPj5/13OlL7IqyXdageYVnE4egBwFFUm96oLRDrX5 uDCSSOWIM/8929pUwqxHUlq84rzCwtTf8RyL1dCjDjb08TDjVpPXGQ92J4/tAnJnRvQm Hf4LwQiyDv8XITGKXwEVts2mGLAJqWNfBps2fp8kHnssg2oZVO6qDU/TghYzN56Xm+SN rutRY/GqNb8zBcBhXDrsSblNd2QINyJGjiDkdOEbuTdLmtF9C8Hr/UMRFgj8DWCZHx7V 5XJotANO/VLRgy2oSw7pBnv/JtO8renMBl9Wf42k0tOPAciY8DgsQvCXsKLt2wqKB/+v QZKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531txB9MmpCML2ZdsLeT32L9Jmd+/AohqHmeLXZmwAyw5U/2/t5+ wp4KBwZ80htxECeraieaoCNU4Tczq36+cQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPsfbBeZvg+hZQdXmGlNbNE50HTPIEmKn3MGGHkAMRkUd9D6sVp8SpVGCzRhn0AOK8mRtFdA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9046:b0:149:6fd4:4928 with SMTP id w6-20020a170902904600b001496fd44928mr1164796plz.135.1641844007648; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q16sm7982019pfu.31.2022.01.10.11.46.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) To: John C Klensin , Lars Eggert , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> <73eeadd1-9cff-2df8-fe2b-664580acdfad@stpeter.im> <262D7023-B90B-4F9C-B5E4-AACF8880E592@eggert.org> <59923C5AB2DB7352FB146561@PSB> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <855b53bc-cb6a-588a-fba4-908613c49b44@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 08:46:42 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <59923C5AB2DB7352FB146561@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RSWG meetings and IETF meetings (Re: Issue 144) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:46:52 -0000 From a purely practical viewpoint, it seem to me that treating an RSWG meeting as a de facto General Area WG *for scheduling purposes only* would work as well as anything else we're likely to invent. Regards Brian From nobody Mon Jan 10 11:58:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F523A109C for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:58:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GlmKWovzFUra for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1C43A1093 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:58:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:3861:f1d9:3418:9369]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 70C261D2568; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:58:03 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641844683; bh=wbxjMMAcNGzvQaks5Xasv2K0ql5bLV+pmmFI5SWr9zM=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=CEdMFKIp5Y9nKDsKu7Lvrim1ouj9nHQSIOtPsJvrE5VJp/uc0n+jHzw2mb6ewmEhf 5OMMlCPychig4xnpWiIv3nDcZiX2hoTC551t+S66pHBCLmW/iaBHXI8Juq6ekPUe7k Hd5Ld9CuzwLqfWu3Wzr/rIHx/b6laNd1V/Co7HaU= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1E34DED8-599B-45B2-B259-327791BDF1FF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:58:00 +0200 Cc: Stephen Farrell , =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Message-Id: <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> To: Wes Hardaker X-MailScanner-ID: 70C261D2568.A24E4 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:58:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1E34DED8-599B-45B2-B259-327791BDF1FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2022-1-10, at 18:46, Wes Hardaker wrote: > One major reason for needing public archives is to document = discussions for referring future questions and people back to = discussions where topics have already been discussed. We do this in ietf = working groups all the time. Would these discussions not happen in the RSWG anyway? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_1E34DED8-599B-45B2-B259-327791BDF1FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHcj8gACgkQVLXDCb9w wVf+TRAApCFCxKFIGbWAPG4stMVbqa7TpOQZNWJsjNEEP6BS34qkSmyFEfL3Sxuk T94momQDqNccUQbN3Q6dGYILmhXzfFnwItNbXy5DoNmWuUiPxpU6rNVP2h2IPm/u L1Z3MOXeE77f+Y17zS4Fknp+SsKXGjL9e6gpHjY88TCCb5HW6tXg9xp7PH1OTt3d OXL+XaVmSrzx4n26AbdVQDVJ2PTKxOK9GjaCqLIfc2Z4quCnRQCZF8TAL69ghbOM cChnv86aOm6MkxCHlFHZqZmC74SDEBKGKgR4Bqh2EWx/ouXUj1UB+CuGudcFRZ2B AkPE23Q5hcTO12NCHkL+UgclWPnN0cBEBt0qoAhRXtDgMx2owv7fDmsqE5AnPy0M FYXuafs6BA1cXcbvxsqgXZOnuFzqPBb2kN4550fWwtlbE5NNZrKImtsQPQ21Wf7I YDEFJ4Q0/nVD2bOve/0DVQwOksRM0byP35p+3rF2tmSJ1E3w9bH1s6OZo1HUQ6PY LIIojFMia+Y5flloVA1pTUU56MvJb0fRabO4zxrGsBtNOnIrEYQKv68MjaEgkN6q Pzab5bdpldjJGVIcwryQYlUiZvqnWcZTGZaLX8wmui/9kuHUqSaM7vBsepHjhG0u pb7UWOqfveuNNPtPsnHxlnbYrQnXSQhecy6ARq+Rh2stwC3S7A0= =Th+C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1E34DED8-599B-45B2-B259-327791BDF1FF-- From nobody Mon Jan 10 11:59:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90D83A10A9 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:59:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BBrrhKXdTNTX for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (mail3.g24.pair.com [66.39.134.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 859273A10A7 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDAB11EE1F; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D453211CEC6; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:59:09 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F9109100-0C44-463C-829C-B8662FF2E424"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:59:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" To: Eliot Lear References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:59:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F9109100-0C44-463C-829C-B8662FF2E424 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree with the suggest that Brian made about consulting with the four = stream managers. It does not need to be a prolonged consultation. Russ > On Jan 8, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klensin = initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed. At this = time, I would like to ask if others believe that there is a concern. If = not, we will not make any changes. >=20 > To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the ED = has a proposed search committee. I suggested that the consultation = could occur earlier. Jay pointed out that any such change would delay = hiring of the RSCE and didn't think the change was necessary, as he is = consulting this group. >=20 > One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the RSWG = to address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring. That = would of course require rough consensus and approval. >=20 > Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become operative = until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed. >=20 > There may be other ways forward. Please indicate your preference. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F9109100-0C44-463C-829C-B8662FF2E424 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE3ZgmxD9TboJgMKMUcGKjIhkfjnwFAmHckA0ACgkQcGKjIhkf jnxO/w/9E0fW4WAn+syvg7CeT+KHK14GLkQIc9squpldz7FTVbhdNqA/LE0aVxcM TNn7HAGEeJzLSylLUqNIIypikiUXg/VMeyXU6y9HFhs71P6CYZ+y/fv5EViPbDvN nOL6TAVOFIIlszhf6u1bHkZQNdWNY/3Gol9qTlQ2VYdW1IqdyDz32ZnkigJDR/2e R3JvygYjhXBZ7QtqE7rBDQ82ikP8oo/7YqPsx2bxBvbajdiUegjq8rpHdi8EiUD7 YsZfkasQma+Yf2/rAjXY3ZIFjO2LN94pZL/tZCAKzlo0cc7DdSR+2NjcIKY8qrUF Zk3slG8VRZRM8tvHBsfePN4RuLZV2R9ERvp0YqgXkIo78p3HN3LK6Twn3u0AVAkb 4ObKZ4sFDblMCk2pTQLtV5961KdjkwiYR3g/y8eJIhFz58yWkXJZCMIKvPKTaKF4 WbgkCYcsxfkLCF4HTqZDuSqIe2jNZeg04LC95eKma+eBgh/Pma8IwJbmhmvLIX3w ypFc0PiBWoVlmCVgtHulRB/N/hmvjaVM2p6LKNELYo54RW3ShTaa2oITl8QCjDxV +OQyve0IGfUUI9YlbirtDo6d/yJv+gnrOYjER+W65OzsKnC1JRnS8pmUxt1X6cd/ 17xlfLGAkrogTJvUQD9iW9TJLjhWIvWwmLbnnlvVqvEFCM2Amus= =gfcO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F9109100-0C44-463C-829C-B8662FF2E424-- From nobody Mon Jan 10 12:23:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DC33A11DD for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:23:36 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641846216; bh=/Rfdh3NU4MIBLbm9DSSLfUGtTYpmz5dOTuJNd6COYYo=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=KAvNXcuhsGAivIuFsY4SXRogG7p96O8GBTI0ultju5xDkLrsABT7uKh2lgeQnNFyQ OEBPtL0ardbEq1CIwVx9HfrzJQsNVH+iiwSqzEVm4BZixwDbef/vQq3J21ndKlgTNd hxFchTc3vKZ1lCPDdTH+j8xNZNWCcI8Xss4hqJsw= Message-ID: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:23:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Russ Housley Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------1xYWIQK9kOIYy5X57zsYyf1t" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:23:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------1xYWIQK9kOIYy5X57zsYyf1t Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------nibUZ55VD7nv9NHvxjX19OzK"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Russ Housley Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee References: In-Reply-To: --------------nibUZ55VD7nv9NHvxjX19OzK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSdtIGJlZ2lubmluZyB0byBzZWUgYSByb3VnaCBjb25zZW5zdXMgaGVyZS7CoCBBcmUgdGhl cmUgb3RoZXIgdmlld3M/DQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCk9uIDEwLjAxLjIyIDIwOjU5LCBSdXNzIEhv dXNsZXkgd3JvdGU6DQo+IEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGUgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IEJyaWFuIG1h ZGUgYWJvdXQgY29uc3VsdGluZyB3aXRoIHRoZSBmb3VyIHN0cmVhbSBtYW5hZ2Vycy4gIEl0 IGRvZXMgbm90IG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgYSBwcm9sb25nZWQgY29uc3VsdGF0aW9uLg0KPg0KPiBS dXNzDQo+DQo+PiBPbiBKYW4gOCwgMjAyMiwgYXQgMzo0NCBBTSwgRWxpb3QgTGVhciA8bGVh ckBsZWFyLmNoPiB3cm90ZToNCj4+DQo+PiBIaSwNCj4+DQo+PiBJJ3ZlIG9wZW5lZCBhIHNl cGFyYXRlIGlzc3VlIG9uIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHRoYXQgSm9obiBLbGVuc2luIGluaXRp YXRlZCByZWdhcmRpbmcgaG93IHRoZSBzZWxlY3Rpb24gY29tbWl0dGVlIGhhcyBmb3JtZWQu ICBBdCB0aGlzIHRpbWUsIEkgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBhc2sgaWYgb3RoZXJzIGJlbGlldmUg dGhhdCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGNvbmNlcm4uICBJZiBub3QsIHdlIHdpbGwgbm90IG1ha2UgYW55 IGNoYW5nZXMuDQo+Pg0KPj4gVG8gcmV2aWV3LCBKb2huIGhhcyBwcm9wb3NlZCB0aGF0IHRo ZSBSU0FCIGJlIGNvbnN1bHRlZCBvbmNlIHRoZSBFRCBoYXMgYSBwcm9wb3NlZCBzZWFyY2gg Y29tbWl0dGVlLiAgSSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgY29uc3VsdGF0aW9uIGNvdWxkIG9j Y3VyIGVhcmxpZXIuICBKYXkgcG9pbnRlZCBvdXQgdGhhdCBhbnkgc3VjaCBjaGFuZ2Ugd291 bGQgZGVsYXkgaGlyaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBSU0NFIGFuZCBkaWRuJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGNoYW5n ZSB3YXMgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LCBhcyBoZSBpcyBjb25zdWx0aW5nIHRoaXMgZ3JvdXAuDQo+Pg0K Pj4gT25lIHdheSBmb3J3YXJkIG1pZ2h0IGJlIHRoYXQgd2UgcHV0IHRvZ2V0aGVyIGEgcHJv cG9zYWwgaW4gdGhlIFJTV0cgdG8gYWRkcmVzcyB0aGlzIHBvaW50LCBzbyB0aGF0IHdlIGNh biBnZXQgb24gd2l0aCB0aGUgaGlyaW5nLiAgVGhhdCB3b3VsZCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgcmVxdWly ZSByb3VnaCBjb25zZW5zdXMgYW5kIGFwcHJvdmFsLg0KPj4NCj4+IEFub3RoZXIgd2F5IGZv cndhcmQgbWlnaHQgYmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgdGV4dCBkb2Vzbid0IGJlY29tZSBvcGVyYXRpdmUg dW50aWwgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIFJTV0cgYW5kIFJTQUIgYXJlIGZvcm1lZC4NCj4+DQo+PiBUaGVy ZSBtYXkgYmUgb3RoZXIgd2F5cyBmb3J3YXJkLiAgUGxlYXNlIGluZGljYXRlIHlvdXIgcHJl ZmVyZW5jZS4NCj4+DQo+PiBFbGlvdA0KPj4NCj4+DQo+Pg0KPg0K --------------nibUZ55VD7nv9NHvxjX19OzK-- --------------1xYWIQK9kOIYy5X57zsYyf1t Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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boundary="000000000000bf42fb05d540297a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:27:26 -0000 --000000000000bf42fb05d540297a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This seems fine to me. -Ekr On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:23 PM Eliot Lear wrote: > I'm beginning to see a rough consensus here. Are there other views? > > Eliot > > On 10.01.22 20:59, Russ Housley wrote: > > I agree with the suggest that Brian made about consulting with the four > stream managers. It does not need to be a prolonged consultation. > > > > Russ > > > >> On Jan 8, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klensin > initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed. At this time, > I would like to ask if others believe that there is a concern. If not, we > will not make any changes. > >> > >> To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the ED has > a proposed search committee. I suggested that the consultation could occur > earlier. Jay pointed out that any such change would delay hiring of the > RSCE and didn't think the change was necessary, as he is consulting this > group. > >> > >> One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the RSWG to > address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring. That would of > course require rough consensus and approval. > >> > >> Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become operative > until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed. > >> > >> There may be other ways forward. Please indicate your preference. > >> > >> Eliot > >> > >> > >> > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000bf42fb05d540297a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This seems fine to me.

-Ekr<= /div>


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:23 PM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
I'm beginning to see a rough conse= nsus here.=C2=A0 Are there other views?

Eliot

On 10.01.22 20:59, Russ Housley wrote:
> I agree with the suggest that Brian made about consulting with the fou= r stream managers.=C2=A0 It does not need to be a prolonged consultation. >
> Russ
>
>> On Jan 8, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klens= in initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed.=C2=A0 At thi= s time, I would like to ask if others believe that there is a concern.=C2= =A0 If not, we will not make any changes.
>>
>> To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the E= D has a proposed search committee.=C2=A0 I suggested that the consultation = could occur earlier.=C2=A0 Jay pointed out that any such change would delay= hiring of the RSCE and didn't think the change was necessary, as he is= consulting this group.
>>
>> One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the RS= WG to address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring.=C2=A0 That= would of course require rough consensus and approval.
>>
>> Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become oper= ative until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed.
>>
>> There may be other ways forward.=C2=A0 Please indicate your prefer= ence.
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000bf42fb05d540297a-- From nobody Mon Jan 10 12:30:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36B63A0163 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 12:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H5qh1XFJXPou for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 12:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4813A0139 for ; 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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------lbLw08QY8MkA8Z0cpMsadiUU" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:30:03 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------lbLw08QY8MkA8Z0cpMsadiUU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------zaWZCVs4s7kh24t0U1uDyppl"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Lars Eggert , Wes Hardaker Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> --------------zaWZCVs4s7kh24t0U1uDyppl Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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On 10.01.22 20:58, Lars Eggert wrote:<= br> 
On 2022-1-10, at 18:46, Wes =
Hardaker <hardaker@isi.edu> wrote:

One major reason for needi=
ng public archives is to document discussions for referring future questi=
ons and people back to discussions where topics have already been discuss=
ed. We do this in ietf working groups all the time.

Would these discussions not happen in the RSWG anyway?

Mostly, one would hope.=C2=A0 There are a couple of exceptions specified in the draft:

  • When there is an ambiguity/conflict between streams that requires an interpretation from the RSAB.
  • Comments that flow to the RSAB from the community.

On this latter point, my one question is whether people sending input to the RSAB need some sort of notice that their messages will be publicly archived prior to being shared.=C2=A0 That might require a little bit of tools work if people agree with my concern.

Eliot


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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:36:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:36:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Russ Housley References: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:36:25 -0000 +1 On 1/10/22 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > This seems fine to me. > > -Ekr > > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:23 PM Eliot Lear > wrote: > > I'm beginning to see a rough consensus here.  Are there other views? > > Eliot > > On 10.01.22 20:59, Russ Housley wrote: > > I agree with the suggest that Brian made about consulting with > the four stream managers.  It does not need to be a prolonged > consultation. > > > > Russ > > > >> On Jan 8, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear > wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klensin > initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed.  At this > time, I would like to ask if others believe that there is a > concern.  If not, we will not make any changes. > >> > >> To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the > ED has a proposed search committee.  I suggested that the > consultation could occur earlier.  Jay pointed out that any such > change would delay hiring of the RSCE and didn't think the change > was necessary, as he is consulting this group. > >> > >> One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the > RSWG to address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring. > That would of course require rough consensus and approval. > >> > >> Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become > operative until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed. > >> > >> There may be other ways forward.  Please indicate your preference. > >> > >> Eliot > >> > >> > >> > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > From nobody Mon Jan 10 17:47:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798B33A09E0 for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:46:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:46:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Russ Housley References: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:47:03 -0000 Proposed text for Section 5.1... OLD The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. The selection committee will take into account the definition of the role as well as any other information that the committee deems necessary or helpful in making its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for contracting or employment of the RSCE. NEW Responsibility for making a recommendation to the IETF LLC regarding the RSCE role will lie with a selection committee. The IETF LLC will propose an initial slate of members for this committee, making sure to include members from the community, and consult with the stream representatives regarding the final membership of the committee. In making its recommendation for the role of RSCE, the selection committee will take into account the definition of the role as well as any other information that the committee deems necessary or helpful in making its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for contracting or employment of the RSCE. On 1/10/22 6:36 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > +1 > > On 1/10/22 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> This seems fine to me. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:23 PM Eliot Lear > > wrote: >> >>     I'm beginning to see a rough consensus here.  Are there other views? >> >>     Eliot >> >>     On 10.01.22 20:59, Russ Housley wrote: >>      > I agree with the suggest that Brian made about consulting with >>     the four stream managers.  It does not need to be a prolonged >>     consultation. >>      > >>      > Russ >>      > >>      >> On Jan 8, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear >     > wrote: >>      >> >>      >> Hi, >>      >> >>      >> I've opened a separate issue on the discussion that John Klensin >>     initiated regarding how the selection committee has formed.  At this >>     time, I would like to ask if others believe that there is a >>     concern.  If not, we will not make any changes. >>      >> >>      >> To review, John has proposed that the RSAB be consulted once the >>     ED has a proposed search committee.  I suggested that the >>     consultation could occur earlier.  Jay pointed out that any such >>     change would delay hiring of the RSCE and didn't think the change >>     was necessary, as he is consulting this group. >>      >> >>      >> One way forward might be that we put together a proposal in the >>     RSWG to address this point, so that we can get on with the hiring. >>     That would of course require rough consensus and approval. >>      >> >>      >> Another way forward might be that the text doesn't become >>     operative until after the RSWG and RSAB are formed. >>      >> >>      >> There may be other ways forward.  Please indicate your >> preference. >>      >> >>      >> Eliot >>      >> >>      >> >>      >> >>      > >>     --     Rfced-future mailing list >>     Rfced-future@iab.org >>     https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>     >> >> > From nobody Mon Jan 10 17:53:39 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F7E3A0A8B for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:53:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <606009ef-fb2d-70e5-c06b-e96be8f45129@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:53:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , John C Klensin , Lars Eggert Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= References: <53497e97-ed65-93c8-5f4c-3f4ee9943501@stpeter.im> <55feea9d-d649-6e9d-7f71-74e19ecb194d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <13563BFE328B6B07D99E4800@PSB> <73eeadd1-9cff-2df8-fe2b-664580acdfad@stpeter.im> <262D7023-B90B-4F9C-B5E4-AACF8880E592@eggert.org> <59923C5AB2DB7352FB146561@PSB> <855b53bc-cb6a-588a-fba4-908613c49b44@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <855b53bc-cb6a-588a-fba4-908613c49b44@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RSWG meetings and IETF meetings (Re: Issue 144) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:53:37 -0000 On 1/10/22 12:46 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > From a purely practical viewpoint, it seem to me that treating > an RSWG meeting as a de facto General Area WG *for scheduling > purposes only* would work as well as anything else we're likely > to invent. Agreed. I'm not sure we need to say anything about this in the RFC Editor Model document, but if we need to include text for the avoidance of doubt I'm fine with that. Peter From nobody Mon Jan 10 17:58:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C4C3A0AD2 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=cpgQQLQf; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ndA2GeGh Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XyRwBLLKio9m for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:58:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:58:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <53ba55cb-5c1c-2052-f82e-212c8abc53e5@cs.tcd.ie> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <53ba55cb-5c1c-2052-f82e-212c8abc53e5@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:58:13 -0000 On 1/9/22 5:04 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 09/01/2022 08:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> * "Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged >> among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived..." -- I >> think the "or exchanged among all members of the RSAB" clause is >> impractical and ineffective, and it should be removed. > > +1 - seems better to only publicly archive the "main" RSAB > list. Proposed text... OLD The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the exception of topics that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel matters). Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about topics discussed under executive session, but should note that such topics were discussed. NEW The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. The primary email discussion list used by the RSAB shall be publicly archived, although topics that that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel matters) may be elided from such archives or discussed in private. Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about topics discussed under executive session, but should note that such topics were discussed. /psa From nobody Mon Jan 10 18:01:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AFB3A0B16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:01:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=atg3hZu/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YtKxa+QV Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id heKdOgxuwYf5 for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:01:05 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:01:02 +1100 Cc: Stephen Farrell , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <53ba55cb-5c1c-2052-f82e-212c8abc53e5@cs.tcd.ie> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 02:01:11 -0000 LGTM > On 11 Jan 2022, at 12:58 pm, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 1/9/22 5:04 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> On 09/01/2022 08:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> * "Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged >>> among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived..." -- I >>> think the "or exchanged among all members of the RSAB" clause is >>> impractical and ineffective, and it should be removed. >> +1 - seems better to only publicly archive the "main" RSAB >> list. > > Proposed text... > > OLD > > The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including > minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. Email > messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among > all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the > exception of topics that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel > matters). Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed > information about topics discussed under executive session, but > should note that such topics were discussed. > > NEW > > The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including > minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. The primary > email discussion list used by the RSAB shall be publicly archived, > although topics that that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel > matters) may be elided from such archives or discussed in private. > Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about > topics discussed under executive session, but should note that such > topics were discussed. > > /psa -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Jan 10 18:29:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80A03A0EE2 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:29:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v9x8Ibl9N5QO for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com (mail-pj1-x102e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CD283A0EDB for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id rj2-20020a17090b3e8200b001b1944bad25so3189010pjb.5 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:29:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/idwVkJ/aGOjxRh5LKFaMBbVHoTok5B1kGNcdP3IzgQ=; b=W1njqdsPhMrY/KgvTO2iyJTWVX3Rk+LZlfdJsGQnXhWCgy92V6DTvL9JKsfXS/nT0R ZX23lDBA31fi4R10GIFNeCOAxPEHtFQ/vd7Jahg2gulFH3LQcx9w6EUfjEuO7F525xlD bnuPlRMi1LSmUh4G5hHAjCnWtVhyANDaYDF3Nfu3a+HlVXfd9UdXXaWHLVKPKXzmyLTX GEiWbRqe9o2O6yc91RGFpgROTKQ2d1SLow+kJ0xtuNmXLdw5AKlioAC3YWokeFQNcR3B CimSORkGS9ZwndlHRjns6KXTxE81c1Ba3IlsDZFXw6xDmwOwxiGH3MbqjPRrdc6ItZZa mymA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/idwVkJ/aGOjxRh5LKFaMBbVHoTok5B1kGNcdP3IzgQ=; b=5mD1a41q1Zq35018D1zX7GwKAhVnpRLokCALuOQgoBpq2Kb3TSY0FUJ5BMBWDJicI8 TI1dInCoP8SuEvkuHSIdLeHwUH6qZly4Ice1c3w2qtUOsvvegNGvREzhiDDwndYYhpKL R6Ak//9SqVovJ0nUEDeulUMEllV2AOCLt0r3g9GA23yu0OOl3alQKm+uStdhaBq15P6j Qi3CPb3UywhmcnHJENvntrbN6Oy86Nq+0oeyvqxTB3QWgjjzlA9COKIsMvaqFy8Ojula 34INqZNuJlJ4YSNI3J5W0qyn1RN7Iwx0VTAlzxTeP7i0CFIzWu+ed8ELGEpk3JtrgoWC WEJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533YPK5KKS8ZdRUTzAClvGMBrPxzgpukSsfbGB9rdUHt/44kmaG9 lKqgE0Q+C7p+g0GsI84xkpE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVGhmTnSv9AGT0jFT26YNkp4C6FCSE+w/KtPfrv6C0E7A+OE1xLxjJs8HQ+AatkeljYVGAzw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d703:b0:149:db85:9b30 with SMTP id w3-20020a170902d70300b00149db859b30mr2231560ply.23.1641868166725; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d21sm8479216pfv.45.2022.01.10.18.29.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:29:26 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Russ Housley References: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1b79ecb8-0fa7-a6e4-f0dd-0b4c1773edd8@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:29:22 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 02:29:33 -0000 wfm, but I'd like to hear Jay's opinion. Regards Brian On 11-Jan-22 14:46, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Proposed text for Section 5.1... >=20 > OLD >=20 > The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members fr= om > the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendatio= n > to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. The selection committee will t= ake > into account the definition of the role as well as any other > information that the committee deems necessary or helpful in makin= g > its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for contracting or > employment of the RSCE. >=20 > NEW >=20 > Responsibility for making a recommendation to the IETF LLC regardi= ng > the RSCE role will lie with a selection committee. The IETF LLC w= ill > propose an initial slate of members for this committee, making sur= e > to include members from the community, and consult with the stream= > representatives regarding the final membership of the committee. = In > making its recommendation for the role of RSCE, the selection > committee will take into account the definition of the role as wel= l > as any other information that the committee deems necessary or > helpful in making its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for > contracting or employment of the RSCE. >=20 > On 1/10/22 6:36 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> +1 >> >> On 1/10/22 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> This seems fine to me. >>> >>> -Ekr >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:23 PM Eliot Lear >> > wrote: >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I'm beginning to see a rough consensus here.=C2=A0=20 Are there other views? >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Eliot >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 10.01.22 20:59, Russ Housley wrote: >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > I agree with the suggest that Brian made = about consulting with >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the four stream managers.=C2=A0 It does not need = to be a prolonged >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 consultation. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Russ >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> On Jan 8, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Eliot Lear <= lear@lear.ch >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > wrote: >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> Hi, >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> I've opened a separate issue on the disc= ussion that John Klensin >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 initiated regarding how the selection committee h= as formed.=C2=A0 At this >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time, I would like to ask if others believe that = there is a >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 concern.=C2=A0 If not, we will not make any chang= es. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> To review, John has proposed that the RS= AB be consulted once the >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ED has a proposed search committee.=C2=A0 I sugge= sted that the >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 consultation could occur earlier.=C2=A0 Jay point= ed out that any such >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 change would delay hiring of the RSCE and didn't = think the change >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 was necessary, as he is consulting this group. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> One way forward might be that we put tog= ether a proposal in the >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 RSWG to address this point, so that we can get on=20 with the hiring. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 That would of course require rough consensus and = approval. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> Another way forward might be that the te= xt doesn't become >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 operative until after the RSWG and RSAB are forme= d. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> There may be other ways forward.=C2=A0 P= lease indicate your >>> preference. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> Eliot >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Rfced-future mailing list >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Rfced-future@iab.org >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future= >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>> >>> >> >=20 From nobody Mon Jan 10 18:39:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9653A100D for ; 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:39:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> From: Wes Hardaker Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:38:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Stephen Farrell , =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e5a6e05d5455c79" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 02:39:30 -0000 --0000000000006e5a6e05d5455c79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So, bringing it up to a summary level (my previous notes were about why we do things in other places rather than personal opinion -- I'm generally trying to stay neutral in these discussions) Reasons people in this group want a mailing list archive so far: * transparency * being able to reference past discussions * NEW to answer "Would these discussions not happen in the RSWG anyway?": because it makes the RSAB begins to look like a black box where decisions are made and minutes report high level summaries without the detailed discussions that actually took place. * It matches how the IETF operates (with a counter argument of "this isn't an IETF WG") Reasons against: * free-conversations are easier where people don't have to worry about being quoted/attributed * it sets a precedence (though counter arguments have essentially asked "for who?") I'm sure I missed something. --0000000000006e5a6e05d5455c79 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, bringing it up to a summary level (my previous notes w= ere about why we do things in other places rather than personal opinion -- = I'm generally trying to stay neutral in these discussions)

Reasons people in this group want a mailing list archive so far:
* transparency
* being able to reference past discussions<= /div>
* NEW to answer "Would these discussions not happen in the R= SWG anyway?": because it makes the RSAB begins to look like a black bo= x where decisions are made and minutes report high level summaries without = the detailed discussions that actually took place.
* It matches h= ow the IETF operates (with a counter argument of "this isn't an IE= TF WG")

Reasons against:
* free-con= versations are easier where people don't have to worry about being quot= ed/attributed
* it sets a precedence=C2=A0(though counter argumen= ts have essentially asked "for who?")

I&= #39;m sure I missed something.
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Regards, Martin. On 2022-01-11 10:58, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/9/22 5:04 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> On 09/01/2022 08:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> * "Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged >>> among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived..." -- I >>> think the "or exchanged among all members of the RSAB" clause is >>> impractical and ineffective, and it should be removed. >> >> +1 - seems better to only publicly archive the "main" RSAB >> list. > > Proposed text... > > OLD > >    The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including >    minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions.  Email >    messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among >    all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived, with the >    exception of topics that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel >    matters).  Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed >    information about topics discussed under executive session, but >    should note that such topics were discussed. > > NEW > >    The RSAB shall keep a public record of its proceedings, including >    minutes of all meetings and a record of all decisions. The primary >    email discussion list used by the RSAB shall be publicly archived, >    although topics that that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel >    matters) may be elided from such archives or discussed in private. >    Similarly, meeting minutes may exclude detailed information about >    topics discussed under executive session, but should note that such >    topics were discussed. > > /psa > -- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan From nobody Mon Jan 10 22:13:41 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15FB3A18CE for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:13:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=PxK8Z9vEXthMhGnIK6t7mG4nj6+/V59I3C4Wwmp8nTazWgtNTJ4UodSSRBCVdRpl+ fDaDJJZiDYrWAynUpklVRXfNw7EGRoVhVc23dtLa5fLbIN1KklcGAS7J6l137vIcRr TvTRHpcg6e4r0z1dQ6YrApydjfhDhg1EPyLEupRs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:13:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Russ Housley References: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ERs45l1FkYD9NTXZE0lXIHb1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 06:13:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------ERs45l1FkYD9NTXZE0lXIHb1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------JE0OXEcUimAUHcJSpL0Tyhm8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Russ Housley Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee References: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> --------------JE0OXEcUimAUHcJSpL0Tyhm8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------v17R2xTU4R00ralsL3SqF5Uz" 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=?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Stephen Farrell Message-Id: <88E57876-7139-46C7-A150-4A52319F2014@eggert.org> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> To: Wes Hardaker X-MailScanner-ID: 2EC4E1D2568.A7B0E X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:10:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DA52AC66-13C6-4F21-9A58-452BED2ADB2D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-11, at 4:38, Wes Hardaker wrote: > Reasons people in this group want a mailing list archive so far: > * transparency > * being able to reference past discussions > * NEW to answer "Would these discussions not happen in the RSWG = anyway?": because it makes the RSAB begins to look like a black box = where decisions are made and minutes report high level summaries without = the detailed discussions that actually took place. so maybe my understanding about the new model is off, but: I have = understood the proposed structure to be such that the RSAB really = doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to not approving proposals by = the RSWG, especially not without immediately needing to take the = discussion back to the RSWG in such cases. In other words, I'm = struggling to come up with examples where significant discussions would = happen inside the RSAB only. > * It matches how the IETF operates (with a counter argument of "this = isn't an IETF WG") IMO, it doesn't. The RSWG is supposed to mirror how an IETF WG works, = but not the RSAB, which is much more IESG- or IAB-like. Thanks, Lars > Reasons against: > * free-conversations are easier where people don't have to worry about = being quoted/attributed > * it sets a precedence (though counter arguments have essentially = asked "for who?") >=20 > I'm sure I missed something. > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_DA52AC66-13C6-4F21-9A58-452BED2ADB2D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHdLUsACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcb2g//ezmJLcEImpgJixC5/GP/Q5dSDW4ZIuIHF9FlxrWr13qDTpWcNRoI22y7 MyQPc5KdQnZrlGpwhwi7pQ122T4JpSaLXYzVnHQrVkWkTtAzCM/j36AngGZo3Y7V jT6NihxDfbNpHxYt60is/InLTwGYK/h14dNrPA7A+rzJSgMXHouxzQt8qhCevhDD bU72fGS1aW1F4Sf68OLZi4HWk/GHN6C8oJP9SKWxpFsdwKUc8tLmP2IFMGdnmKw7 YDjjJmILgDfhN3PwzMaiHLGoW7jwmhBsP07zMf7dhTy7Y/OP/DWR3x3nfij19f45 kPS01mL95Sn8hIcx7sJ5pBtGQuilZ8GFuaj825RNBaY/r0btrU+ZgQeGSQmHJQPU VbMi2k4tknWNTx1TZJ8hKEkELyENS9TFWOdkHSBNpEvwGFoPnaWqMAcyg0PrmV0s ksdm75Alf++N/1fROA4PGWE6hALNv3/g1QEAqSXYP/M3Adhh9djTDvZ0NjPRatSt 0f+bjOlBujCo4Ht8AQxE7xxi7OduZGnCi7E48BYGS6CqYDAcZulJNWrikrqWQQSc DYxaV91ROOl9UBeU4kECe7oRG40kRrcZ9prW2PpvozNIfgmddQpktN5M+PSH+y8W yv2/TXZla/SV4p7UM0Z04UeoauauW26/ucev9XpxhoHduKOUF+U= =4S7p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DA52AC66-13C6-4F21-9A58-452BED2ADB2D-- From nobody Mon Jan 10 23:18:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FDB3A1BC1 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:18:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8b1R-2mR8Lv6 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AF0C3A1BBE for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:f816:6939:f497:7016]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74A071D2592; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 09:18:05 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641885485; bh=6HnBCYJsKlafDaLf1adsCZ/go3PW78KKhU2gkpJxir8=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=cuz/TkPScwwL+wwOw/Uz/75Oga73CsS8D+Ixtq9Pl3ueXKyvF1ZG9vcxoJx56V8rp a7Dw6wGTmqeKJalXYbwtBgfj+LTA1UqLSbTLP1GSqbIk5L3Dsj8x/VIWf/aHzsE0uD dIOi4BoODsqLbem/yE7rS+Oi6UMphHxwCbD3PaO0= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7362B7EF-49CC-40B7-9B9C-63F03476A6BC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <1b79ecb8-0fa7-a6e4-f0dd-0b4c1773edd8@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 09:18:04 +0200 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Russ Housley Message-Id: <6F318CAF-B6E9-444A-8A04-612BF5450783@eggert.org> References: <4427b157-8ad9-9152-28ae-5db750932d66@lear.ch> <1539b2df-ef80-ca11-fea8-e88cd60b142a@stpeter.im> <800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> <1b79ecb8-0fa7-a6e4-f0dd-0b4c1773edd8@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-MailScanner-ID: 74A071D2592.A44E7 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:18:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7362B7EF-49CC-40B7-9B9C-63F03476A6BC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2022-1-11, at 4:29, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > wfm, but I'd like to hear Jay's opinion. Jay is on vacation until Jan 25, so expect a delay. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_7362B7EF-49CC-40B7-9B9C-63F03476A6BC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHdLywACgkQVLXDCb9w wVew+Q//Zm2tREU5zfOVYucyv+4H2L3oze4v4kpjAJyZu1pLmnxZK7XaxKzvEt2K hkC1nnhLNmNpt/ysnL2+BJFlFfhlUQJ6PcA34E73Zz6n9kklD4A51E0bmw4v9OMD l+g9i36SKVydMigpy9LAgE6bZ8YdgtcUQhOIDzVCvXUyxDpfA4ji7Z7jr23PaBNj tQUavMF5P07iFFdfu+VH5aYlZPFOuyxg92J4Yw8SGNLQ+zR7baC9bbf6EEdf0wXx 8LNVdPpFJnfrd42qOYggtVesDnksfE+ai67bkgfxqbPKcbpza3JFpp7gLnW60OXr X7I513Ad6PxXEA8sn8R4o/7QBZ9J+1MFsrC3RssNyZdjfjEKDyrLfY1GaPHEcpCH 3WtxIkmzf/dbLi7tr5LMved4+1oDOdToVEKa7ckx16k/KfPpsIb3CQDVKKQ+IrBN ikEZaAmWkj+lcS+xfCiXYGki4lQW/hLzwUwKFU+9J3QFMZI7TE2elnqpNPTA0dBE jfAFkYQN0nihDVrx/6Uzr6/tlKO9/OK6g/N6CzXt7uYh9Gs8KKQdi1VYgWeJBRXm fJvHasNM/cU1E4sSHO06h+Mbn/7GaEcJJ8kDzJ6Sv0nA17qf3psgkjlfgBqLRbgG I+ArdldfX09/Y9CN8nPZ6kp9REsqktFYX9ezHR7fwO5edVfkP30= =uB7R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7362B7EF-49CC-40B7-9B9C-63F03476A6BC-- From nobody Mon Jan 10 23:29:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30043A1C0F for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:29:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HHdPAitMZw8p for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8033A1C0E for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.195.25]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 20B7Sh5x016706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:29:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1641886150; x=1641972550; i=@elandsys.com; bh=iWcoea8ew6SiV2qfW+wYnq0K/anQiZKpmxp4dE3wyEU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=M+Bqpa8XjTEOsi/35qHpl0lV4FkQLDFo/Ibd7O7GZv5YW9kZcwqUIlpOB00is68wH etBO/PjqxaVr4aCBhRtio5EtCekabR3q+sTDPb5LxnCaAI4bwbnLHesugfcs+XnUo7 W74n+LGSr6vV4EKHG/7VsM9UWgev1217FJZQXcuo= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20220110231205.07ca1ba8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:28:02 -0800 To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:29:20 -0000 Hi John, At 08:33 AM 03-01-2022, John C Klensin wrote: >involved before the selection committee is finalized". We could >give guidance to the ED (which I assume we could trust Jay to >accept and follow) or we could request that the Board make such >a policy, but we basically can't tell the LLC what to do or how >to manage itself. > >So I would go a step further than Mirja: if our intent is to be >sure the membership of the selection committee is a group >process rather than selection by an individual, we'd best spell >that out, at least as clear guidance. This group is requesting an external party to run a selection process. Details, e.g. the delegation mechanism used within external party, is generally left to the external party to decide upon [1]. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. The matter is discussed in Article 5 of the Company Agreement. 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Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Lars Eggert , Wes Hardaker Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= , Peter Saint-Andre , Stephen Farrell References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> <88E57876-7139-46C7-A150-4A52319F2014@eggert.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <88E57876-7139-46C7-A150-4A52319F2014@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR03CA0020.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:14::32) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 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DCghiLXrxuBzrqfjQoNjaP5r4eAjBi1y//quSNaRnM6ooLYAPkKai0iSLMM1ruAisamtJse2ixIvDHaEMpryDw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY1PR01MB1498 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:32:28 -0000 Hello Lars, On 2022-01-11 16:10, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2022-1-11, at 4:38, Wes Hardaker wrote: >> Reasons people in this group want a mailing list archive so far: >> * transparency >> * being able to reference past discussions >> * NEW to answer "Would these discussions not happen in the RSWG anyway?": because it makes the RSAB begins to look like a black box where decisions are made and minutes report high level summaries without the detailed discussions that actually took place. > > so maybe my understanding about the new model is off, but: I have understood the proposed structure to be such that the RSAB really doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to not approving proposals by the RSWG, especially not without immediately needing to take the discussion back to the RSWG in such cases. Your understanding of that part of the model is correct. But it also means that for that part, there won't be too much to archive anyway. > In other words, I'm struggling to come up with examples where significant discussions would happen inside the RSAB only. The RSAB also got another role: To 'arbitrate' between the RFC Production Center and the authors. There is an expectation that this will create some precedents, and it is preferable that these precedents, and the discussions that lead to them, are publicly available. Regards, Martin. >> * It matches how the IETF operates (with a counter argument of "this isn't an IETF WG") > > IMO, it doesn't. The RSWG is supposed to mirror how an IETF WG works, but not the RSAB, which is much more IESG- or IAB-like. > > Thanks, > Lars > >> Reasons against: >> * free-conversations are easier where people don't have to worry about being quoted/attributed >> * it sets a precedence (though counter arguments have essentially asked "for who?") >> >> I'm sure I missed something. >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > From nobody Mon Jan 10 23:34:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EFE3A1C37 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:33:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Lars,

Adding to what Martin just wrote...

On 11.01.22 08:10, Lars Eggert wrote:<= br>
so maybe my understanding about the new model is off, but: I have understood the proposed structure to be such that the RSAB really doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to not approving proposals by the RSWG, especially not without immediately needing to take the discussion back to the RSWG in such cases. In other words, I'm struggling to come up with examples where significant discussions would happen inside the RSAB only.

In general, yes conversation to happen in the RSWG, but there reasons why the RSAB members might discuss matters among themselves, particularly when it comes to implementation of policies.=C2=A0 For example,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CI believe I am running = into an issue with the RPC over how they are implementing this new tool- we don't have permissions or the states we need=E2=80=9D, so that they= can reflect that back to the RPC.=C2=A0 That may not even entail any changes to policy, but simply to implementation.

If someone later sees this discussion and decides that the RSAB has missed that indeed there is a policy issue, they can raise it in the RSWG, but only if the list is publicly archived.=C2=A0 That = is- having the list archived publicly can help keep the community informed about policy implementation.

While there is indeed a trust motivation, as you have mentioned, and having things open and transparent might help with that, what we cannot do is stop all potential bad behavior.=C2= =A0 We should be careful just how far we go.

Eliot

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rjd7yfcm6635hdhYBdMVt2jq1fUzpdu6i49jMreXrqvsYMH0EHquATrNZtHkIIuPcZWu8Wil1RYg ccKa3/1JxEBMkhbIwpd0UcsE7U9YAf8suDhUJUPVgXLw3LylqKYACPb1nTmpkvxyWM5bDpMLLd0d ibtwORTFu2+atsYzi83jIKoRKz0orEgba8G7ph7Qt0Aed+TcNPQmepgxpB2LhlZX2qPhUyrtihI5 t7D+l+9vmq+qSbKFEoMNWoMPYCFmqmBDsD6PZ5W/YQ== =QsgD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------8ZFWy2cpaVaEvgNkDa9BS9jm-- From nobody Tue Jan 11 02:11:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB73A21CA for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 02:11:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id omPDR35O4ami for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 02:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4952F3A21C8 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 02:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pd9e11c37.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.225.28.55] helo=emb-w4epjhc9.fritz.box); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1n7E7z-0004QT-Qt; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 11:11:43 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <506d180c-5217-57dc-470a-7328447a221d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 11:11:42 +0100 Cc: Lars Eggert , Wes Hardaker , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre , Stephen Farrell Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <67D9037D-0342-4F66-AFFE-B5FD580ACA8B@kuehlewind.net> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> <88E57876-7139-46C7-A150-4A52319F2014@eggert.org> <506d180c-5217-57dc-470a-7328447a221d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1641895909;1d2466a6; X-HE-SMSGID: 1n7E7z-0004QT-Qt Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 10:11:54 -0000 Please see below. > On 11. Jan 2022, at 08:32, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst = wrote: >=20 > Hello Lars, >=20 > On 2022-01-11 16:10, Lars Eggert wrote: >> Hi, >> On 2022-1-11, at 4:38, Wes Hardaker wrote: >>> Reasons people in this group want a mailing list archive so far: >>> * transparency >>> * being able to reference past discussions >>> * NEW to answer "Would these discussions not happen in the RSWG = anyway?": because it makes the RSAB begins to look like a black box = where decisions are made and minutes report high level summaries without = the detailed discussions that actually took place. >> so maybe my understanding about the new model is off, but: I have = understood the proposed structure to be such that the RSAB really = doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to not approving proposals by = the RSWG, especially not without immediately needing to take the = discussion back to the RSWG in such cases. >=20 > Your understanding of that part of the model is correct. But it also = means that for that part, there won't be too much to archive anyway. >=20 >> In other words, I'm struggling to come up with examples where = significant discussions would happen inside the RSAB only. >=20 > The RSAB also got another role: To 'arbitrate' between the RFC = Production Center and the authors. There is an expectation that this = will create some precedents, and it is preferable that these precedents, = and the discussions that lead to them, are publicly available. These kind of discussions as well as any discussion on documents should = be covered by the RSAB meeting minutes (which would also be the more = useful and easy-to-find reference). This is also how the IAB and IESG = works: all decisions are minuted in some kind of meeting notes; this = means even if a decision is taken on the list, we will add it to the = next agenda and minute it there. I believe this is a good model and think that would also work well for = the RSAB. However, again, no strong opinions here. Mirja >=20 > Regards, Martin. >=20 >=20 >>> * It matches how the IETF operates (with a counter argument of "this = isn't an IETF WG") >> IMO, it doesn't. The RSWG is supposed to mirror how an IETF WG works, = but not the RSAB, which is much more IESG- or IAB-like. >> Thanks, >> Lars >>> Reasons against: >>> * free-conversations are easier where people don't have to worry = about being quoted/attributed >>> * it sets a precedence (though counter arguments have essentially = asked "for who?") >>>=20 >>> I'm sure I missed something. >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Tue Jan 11 05:53:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEA43A111E for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 05:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: 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ESMTPSA id 20BDrCXk136962 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Jan 2022 14:53:13 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1641909194; bh=dAqJVOuKvQbDZv4gCKp+mpf7SMaoG7zgSeDCxFnwjSs=; h=Date:To:Cc:From:Subject:From; b=PbOLzjAvh9wQ+Fi5fki4Ui/1LYhAZYZHORXd7UiSLUEFcWSTL9DvKDz24hXKfMnif 0eIoX7KdRseozOSvnOcXHuj0gPItbeKrTjrntW3BlXIlzzedOlxJI0Bwy4r9i0w7ua fwyxYmmeVFFlj6My80gMZwtV/gmppcOFfbP4rZbU= Message-ID: <421c0d13-a45d-15d3-cac8-eb221d63436b@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 14:53:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------HiOGcFJ0FywzIKFZFloYZm27" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Last call coming soon X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:53:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------HiOGcFJ0FywzIKFZFloYZm27 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2HchVrnNlNgFT7We01p6Xknp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen Message-ID: <421c0d13-a45d-15d3-cac8-eb221d63436b@lear.ch> Subject: Last call coming soon --------------2HchVrnNlNgFT7We01p6Xknp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ROykPDQVgQnz4zTlYAUX9YWL" --------------ROykPDQVgQnz4zTlYAUX9YWL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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<800bde92-f8ae-a622-c02a-8140d5b9a177@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 151: Consultation / Approval for RSCE Selection committee X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 00:32:27 -0000 On 1/10/22 11:13 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Peter, > > I think your text captures the issue, modulo two points: > >>    The IETF LLC will >>    propose an initial slate of members for this committee, making sure >>    to include members from the community, and consult with the stream >>    representatives regarding the final membership of the committee. > > I think that "will" must become a "should" or "is requested to", because > we do not dictate to the LLC in this document and we shouldn't start here. Ack. > Also, if your intent was to capture John's point about having a > diversity of perspectives on the committee, I missed that point in the many threads. > I don't think you quite got > there.  You could change that line to something like: > >> including people with {diverse/different} perspectives, WFM. Peter From nobody Tue Jan 11 16:38:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CE83A18A8 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:38:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j4nsFfF_1T9U for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68B1B3A18A6 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n7ReT-0001Gq-2m; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 19:38:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 19:38:03 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: S Moonesamy cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <065B204CFF18FAEF88F13AAE@PSB> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20220110231205.07ca1ba8@elandnews.com> References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> <6.2.5.6.2.20220110231205.07ca1ba8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 00:38:17 -0000 --On Monday, January 10, 2022 23:28 -0800 S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi John, > At 08:33 AM 03-01-2022, John C Klensin wrote: >> involved before the selection committee is finalized". We >> could give guidance to the ED (which I assume we could trust >> Jay to accept and follow) or we could request that the Board >> make such a policy, but we basically can't tell the LLC what >> to do or how to manage itself. >> >> So I would go a step further than Mirja: if our intent is to >> be sure the membership of the selection committee is a group >> process rather than selection by an individual, we'd best >> spell that out, at least as clear guidance. > This group is requesting an external party to run a selection > process. Details, e.g. the delegation mechanism used within > external party, is generally left to the external party to > decide upon [1]. If you want to look at it in those terms (I, personally, don't think it is particularly helpful), this group can specify any selection process it concludes would be desirable and effective, including having the RSAB or RSWG make open calls to the community for search committee members, select that committee, and have them go looking for an appropriate person to be RSCE. If we had them do that, that committee would then presumably ask the LLC to negotiate a contract with that person. Presumably the LLC could say "no, we won't do that" but I wouldn't expect that and, if they did so without good reason, I assume there would be an IETF community meltdown, the likes of which we have not seen since the one popularly associated with the IAB meeting in Kobe. Again, I don't think that would be desirable, but the decisions as to the process by which the RSCE is chosen really belong to this group. If the group believes that it is good to have the LLC responsible for the selection process (not just the contracting one), that is fine but, if the group also believes it wants to give the LLC guidance in how that is done, we should be able to assume that the LLC will follow that guidance. If we feel that we cannot make that assumption, then turning over authority to make the selection to the LLC would be, to use the precise technical term, really stupid. That does suggest something we should (SHOULD ?) do before the Last Call which Eliot just announced to be pending: just as the IETF Last Call and IESG process involves formally asking IANA (also an "external organization" if the LLC is one), we should formally ask the LLC if they see any difficulties in accepting and implementing any of the provisions of the document and. if so, what they are. If they do, those provisions of the document probably need adjustment. best, john From nobody Tue Jan 11 16:41:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930DF3A18D1 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=Aly4lI+/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SieLceji Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dgaRqBgl-O3Y for ; 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Tue, 11 Jan 2022 19:41:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6bb37c5a-6645-3af5-526a-48103cfad4d3@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:41:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Lars Eggert Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> <88E57876-7139-46C7-A150-4A52319F2014@eggert.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 00:41:33 -0000 On 1/11/22 12:33 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Lars, > > Adding to what Martin just wrote... > > On 11.01.22 08:10, Lars Eggert wrote: >> so maybe my understanding about the new model is off, but: I have >> understood the proposed structure to be such that the RSAB really >> doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to not approving proposals >> by the RSWG, especially not without immediately needing to take the >> discussion back to the RSWG in such cases. In other words, I'm >> struggling to come up with examples where significant discussions >> would happen inside the RSAB only. > > In general, yes conversation to happen in the RSWG, but there reasons > why the RSAB members might discuss matters among themselves, > particularly when it comes to implementation of policies. There's another piece here as well: working through feedback received in the community calls for comment. "Constituency X seems to be concerned about Aspect Y of Proposal Z; do we think this rises to the level of something that could harm the RFC Series as a whole and should one of us ballot CONCERN?" Having a public archive of such discussions could be quite valuable. Peter From nobody Tue Jan 11 22:40:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1043A0965 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:40:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KJoRSqGN40Uz for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97B083A0961 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n7XIk-0001aG-3R; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 01:40:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 01:39:59 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eliot Lear , Lars Eggert cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <377EA54FAAB4901B067FD497@PSB> In-Reply-To: <6bb37c5a-6645-3af5-526a-48103cfad4d3@stpeter.im> References: <3e1fe494-c86b-5181-6afb-128b05fec882@stpeter.im> <48043fa8-eb37-2f97-942c-500492664bb0@gmail.com> <95dd0e5a-c5f4-09d1-98b4-327978e21316@gmail.com> <1846FA24-9631-4622-9EE6-B0D4A2B505C3@kuehlewind.net> <8a648870-03ec-b4c2-426b-357022e94c05@cs.tcd.ie> <548366C9-4581-4D4F-8638-7A5F7B754D13@eggert.org> <203C6967-5A21-4100-8A5A-EB64E67B33EC@eggert.org> <88E57876-7139-46C7-A150-4A52319F2014@eggert.org> <6bb37c5a-6645-3af5-526a-48103cfad4d3@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 143: RSAB mailing list archives X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:40:19 -0000 --On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 17:41 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/11/22 12:33 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Lars, >> >> Adding to what Martin just wrote... >> >> On 11.01.22 08:10, Lars Eggert wrote: >>> so maybe my understanding about the new model is off, but: I >>> have understood the proposed structure to be such that the >>> RSAB really doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to >>> not approving proposals by the RSWG, especially not without >>> immediately needing to take the discussion back to the RSWG >>> in such cases. In other words, I'm struggling to come up >>> with examples where significant discussions would happen >>> inside the RSAB only. >> >> In general, yes conversation to happen in the RSWG, but there >> reasons why the RSAB members might discuss matters among >> themselves, particularly when it comes to implementation of >> policies. > > There's another piece here as well: working through feedback > received in the community calls for comment. "Constituency X > seems to be concerned about Aspect Y of Proposal Z; do we > think this rises to the level of something that could harm the > RFC Series as a whole and should one of us ballot CONCERN?" > Having a public archive of such discussions could be quite > valuable. And, of course, if the RSAB is involved in the RSCE selection process in any way, even just the selection of the selection committee as some of us have proposed, that would be another category of discussions that should probably be kept private. More generally (apologies if this has been said already), nothing we say or do is going to prevent the stream managers from having a private conversation (in person, on line, or in email), or even a conversation that involves their representatives if those are different. Personally, I would prefer to have the fact of those discussed be recorded, made public, minuted, and held in the presence of the RSCE (unless they are about the RSCE) and and ED (unless they are about them) even if the content is not public rather than having the fact of such a discussion kept secret and maybe key people kept out unnecessarily. And the latter is all I think we would accomplish by demanding that such discussions not occur. So, public mailing list, minutes, encouragement to make as much public (and in those minutes) as possible, but provision for private/meetings executive sessions if needed (and, if necessary, a private mailing list), the fact, topics, and, where relevant, conclusions of such sessions to be be in those public minutes and mailing list archives even if the contents of the discussions are not. john From nobody Wed Jan 12 14:57:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC223A0801 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gPX9Sl6XZKsN for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6783A07FC for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.97.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 20CMvQS5000593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:57:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1642028262; x=1642114662; i=@elandsys.com; bh=w5Y3l0kcTpjjzhuSo6GawKCD66XS14JSxbs2H5XIJoE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=XmsACyycoCYVaoNw6Dl0MPipghkTsFZtMPArogFE1uDXpdjBHTnWAxONKWSxgj+h8 vbNSouOjC0xurnTkR6SOH611BnMkTaHsBKxpmnOSD0oi5AhwX5BQiyVId0GDvVXMhx tWduFBTWnMD4C75sxI/qi5fD29NqydEXcdDWAUTE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20220112140123.16527920@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:54:40 -0800 To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <065B204CFF18FAEF88F13AAE@PSB> References: <7D28CA5F-594B-4212-9155-86669654A504@ietf.org> <2939BCCA4CA75D29739F59D4@PSB> <6.2.5.6.2.20220110231205.07ca1ba8@elandnews.com> <065B204CFF18FAEF88F13AAE@PSB> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Filling the RSCE position (was: Re: Comments on -07) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 22:57:50 -0000 Hi John, At 04:38 PM 11-01-2022, John C Klensin wrote: >If you want to look at it in those terms (I, personally, don't >think it is particularly helpful), this group can specify any >selection process it concludes would be desirable and effective, >including having the RSAB or RSWG make open calls to the >community for search committee members, select that committee, >and have them go looking for an appropriate person to be RSCE. >If we had them do that, that committee would then presumably ask >the LLC to negotiate a contract with that person. Presumably >the LLC could say "no, we won't do that" but I wouldn't expect >that and, if they did so without good reason, I assume there >would be an IETF community meltdown, the likes of which we have >not seen since the one popularly associated with the IAB meeting >in Kobe. > >Again, I don't think that would be desirable, but the decisions >as to the process by which the RSCE is chosen really belong to >this group. If the group believes that it is good to have the >LLC responsible for the selection process (not just the >contracting one), that is fine but, if the group also believes >it wants to give the LLC guidance in how that is done, we should >be able to assume that the LLC will follow that guidance. If >we feel that we cannot make that assumption, then turning over >authority to make the selection to the LLC would be, to use the >precise technical term, really stupid. > >That does suggest something we should (SHOULD ?) do before the >Last Call which Eliot just announced to be pending: just as the >IETF Last Call and IESG process involves formally asking IANA >(also an "external organization" if the LLC is one), we should >formally ask the LLC if they see any difficulties in accepting >and implementing any of the provisions of the document and. if >so, what they are. If they do, those provisions of the document >probably need adjustment. The point I was trying to make was to understand the different boundaries and fit what the group would like to see within them. The LLC is, if I am not mistaken, responsible for appointing people to the selection committee. That committee makes a recommendation and the LLC takes the decision. The last (quoted) paragraph might be {1] a practical way to tackle the matter. Someone asks the LLC nicely and the LLC responds as per usual protocol. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. I may be incorrect as I don't know the intricacies of the LLC. From nobody Thu Jan 13 12:06:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A833A10E4 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:06:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=GbGpFFK2; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=akUX3C55 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sgrij7hS-_FJ for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 831D73A10E0 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C505C0100; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:06:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:references:to:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=U 2XDmkzO8mXcHaPzYFTM7/ZJ4eLuq8OB4LRXAHFCAMk=; b=GbGpFFK2QAF5efIvJ OZj460KzKO4gq1U4b/pOolp/i0CiYdW959U8ZTz2qnnylXan8Wzi9NWk8561LnvV k8kUFmmhIvHYUUrXQgRYBHoWo3vgCpEH98Jmor4hXyuH0efDmz0s426X7RdgJxei jjkcJvuBdNjsQvOeKWQKA6NibQ6oalCEDxb/2ByHH/7FbxUP4JbHJoks/QE7MXJg 1yJYDjhHhDnWU2Isu9mjRdnxYrFMq2OrEC27niifCE14ozAlQd53LimaePZTORSA 0tPWeyDBTKFl0CL5MYthcxisDTVe4KJA6X6GZtp0XyDLupcmBtcXkc2MGgUNlGuP GvK9w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=U2XDmkzO8mXcHaPzYFTM7/ZJ4eLuq8OB4LRXAHFCA Mk=; b=akUX3C55xMXa7RMcm+qy5hcO+Xbif1Gg/A+5jYBsTzkCIh3/dZ1BhHAck 1aIvjLNVSHLFYX7tmPQ7r9uqWdUIRnLBuaPt9k0+uXD053fhoNvnu78JQSvjI616 t1JcqdNJjQbR5SkS56+NMdTqcVeQsDK+InXvOzlrfu95I/fWNWv41Uui0LwpZMzG GHPTCCm8wc8xaqYcciKPvLq5IQEfqTj5/FzuFn4UMbsM7vr6+21KYGaoTgri+AMT kNIXiCmWyozRgmgGM0CWKqXE7TDYKsGmIRCKea57kTzp829sttwCTGq0G3LMgfCL zBIzley3AfKwnw08pBLpcAozZ9Wgg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdefgddufeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfufhfvhfgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeetgedtgfefheelte eiheevledtieetveefffdtheekhffhledtleefledtgfeigeenucffohhmrghinhepihgv thhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:06:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:06:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 References: <164210428651.20539.15003184119158201743@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <164210428651.20539.15003184119158201743@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <164210428651.20539.15003184119158201743@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-09.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 20:06:32 -0000 Hi all, here's a new version that fixes a few small issues brought up on the list recently. Peter -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-09.txt Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:04:46 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-09.txt has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Revision: 09 Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) Document date: 2022-01-13 Group: iab Pages: 31 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-09.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-09 Abstract: This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The model defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Jan 13 14:04:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69283A15E3 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=BGqVlUPz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=mFgDRRvf Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wwcWdpLFjnLh for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D99893A15C8 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F275C00AC; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:04:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=p JEtNoKPpLCK5H9yXDnkJKKfkhhn6audJJy1jJ+Wwbs=; b=BGqVlUPzIWpm/nqXJ /NqKxjYghpqZQXGfHaDD2ZByJARtz1+w+l+SA2V1fPHlRWg+z/Cx0OKt25mCxWN1 iwrhmb4mfUmtBtfJ+C99bXjsS1yYnDgrTWnXsfq7RTKs5jmE/5+luv0w6kScZRmD 1Pjr/PerH5yT84KzfQbRDTGjV1HQ12ZNdg+Bipxeo/Ru0MXT4FMVCTc8rJubb0P7 dH6ODbKE2RD19D8UH/XhENNrHUROWgFWTXaMmEBhw+qz8dq8cyu/qNVIbVsCyJRL 0upR4KNeIiEEOkbmxCpu6iev6Y1SUcdzZhbqNS0KGJ+qRt1pe6RYLp+TT4YN4wkA X+4Dg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=pJEtNoKPpLCK5H9yXDnkJKKfkhhn6audJJy1jJ+Ww bs=; b=mFgDRRvfgsPNEm1UVd+8S8jvNVtgKickOj+hKsc403E6xenjCFJjp35f1 tq/pfbR50Ov/mzMxUD4UEj4TXv4yjqx3w57i4HptZR5zDMdim+eLQm+oXhTNiRig WYXSbb+aFQGPNTlwq0AK63Jhmli2049SPjL0HjpRK/s/g7Pcd7xC2QMCNWdvuGOr 7xLeaw2+k7yvmAfLEQB8c3UOqYqHllOTAFoxD73nmsl+t5PsCqgM9SjR6VTumOkk YLDkz+cQ0vgAfQblSZwSeDKSvwxZGNbXE5NZbMxJMpsMKOLgtwZ+aQLr7OfNDkIq 7KTiNacRFTK3uKXAx04S/9nMk36GQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdefgdduheejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheevjefggfdvleeuvedujeekteetgedtjeevvdeuffetkeeu tddvhfegteetfeefnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpihgrsgdrohhrghdpmh hnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhf rhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:04:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:04:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:04:23 -0000 Hi Mark, It seems that I missed this feedback when publishing the new version today. My apologies for that. I can submit -10 to fix these issues, or wait until after this next review period. Peter On 1/9/22 1:23 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Peter, > > Thanks. Looking through the diffs, I noticed a few things: > > * "The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings" -- this wording could be interpreted to prevent hybrid meetings, or online participation in in-person meetings. > > * "The RSAB consists primarily of certain voting members. As specified herein, the RSAB also includes certain non-voting members." -- this is quite wordy... > > * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion on the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. Also, it makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method of handling vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, To ensure the smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only of the stream representatives enumerated above." > > * "Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived..." -- I think the "or exchanged among all members of the RSAB" clause is impractical and ineffective, and it should be removed. I don't feel strongly about it to formally object, though. > > Cheers, > > > >> On 8 Jan 2022, at 10:53 am, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> As promised... >> >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt >> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:52:19 -0800 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> To: Peter Saint-Andre >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model >> Revision: 08 >> Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) >> Document date: 2022-01-07 >> Group: iab >> Pages: 31 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08 >> >> Abstract: >> This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The model >> defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, >> policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series >> Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC >> Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, >> policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC >> Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF >> Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). >> >> This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, >> RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. >> >> >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Thu Jan 13 14:14:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EB13A1632 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DVDKf0Y-tod8 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------OqtUtTzHnXuvwaDbNMH0FMfy" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:14:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------OqtUtTzHnXuvwaDbNMH0FMfy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:57:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6ccbd9da-a618-7cb1-3171-b44181d4a1d0@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:57:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:57:58 -0000 On 1/13/22 3:14 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > If it's not too much trouble, let's tackle Mark's feedback so we can get > as clean a version for LC as possible.  Please see below. > > On 13.01.22 23:04, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Hi Mark, >> >> It seems that I missed this feedback when publishing the new version >> today. My apologies for that. I can submit -10 to fix these issues, or >> wait until after this next review period. >> >> Peter >> >> On 1/9/22 1:23 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> Hi Peter, >>> >>> Thanks. Looking through the diffs, I noticed a few things: >>> >>> * "The RSWG is empowered to hold in-person or online-only meetings" >>> -- this wording could be interpreted to prevent hybrid meetings, or >>> online participation in in-person meetings. > > >>> >>> * "The RSAB consists primarily of certain voting members.  As >>> specified herein, the RSAB also includes certain non-voting members." >>> -- this is quite wordy... > > This is editorial. Fixed in my working version. >>> * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the >>> Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion >>> on the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. >>> Also, it makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method >>> of handling vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, >>> To ensure the smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only >>> of the stream representatives enumerated above." > This needs to be addressed. In my working version I've removed the "in effect" clause. >>> * "Email messages sent to the RSAB email discussion list or exchanged >>> among all members of the RSAB shall be publicly archived..." -- I >>> think the "or exchanged among all members of the RSAB" clause is >>> impractical and ineffective, and it should be removed. I don't feel >>> strongly about it to formally object, though. > > This is addressed, I think. Already fixed in -09. Expect -10 momentarily. 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Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Revision: 10 Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) Document date: 2022-01-13 Group: iab Pages: 31 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-10.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-10 Abstract: This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The model defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Jan 13 15:26:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324613A0B38 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:26:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.613 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.613 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rc5-fyxcp9vh for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A9573A0B34 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DAF425A344; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:26:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-R3Ki7PGZB5; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.203] (unknown [47.186.34.206]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B31AE424B435; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:26:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:26:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <06414ab1-c53f-e542-52ff-800b99c23ef1@gmail.com> <48449fa5-16f1-e8e6-c498-54d3506d93a7@stpeter.im> From: Jean Mahoney In-Reply-To: <48449fa5-16f1-e8e6-c498-54d3506d93a7@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 147 [WGLC Review of the draft] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:26:12 -0000 (with my RPC hat on) Hi all, On 1/6/22 8:10 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/3/22 7:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 5:26 PM Brian E Carpenter >> > >> wrote: >> >>     On 04-Jan-22 13:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>     On one point only: >> >>      > >>      > >>      > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 4:39 PM Peter Saint-Andre >>     >>     >> wrote: >>      > >>      >     On 1/3/22 5:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>     ... >>      >      > Issue 147: This requires the RPC to keep certain records, >>      >      > e.g., of dialogue with document authors. Does that >> formally >>      >      > happen now, or is it just in people's e-mail folders? >>      >      > Do these records need to be public? >>      >      > >> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/147 >> >> > > >>      >      > >> > >> > >> >>      > >>      >     It's not clear to me whether all record-keeping needs to be >>     public. It >>      >     might be acceptable that records are kept and available on >>     request if >>      >     needed (e.g., in case of an appeal). >>      > >>      > >>      > I think that would be OK. But do they keep records at all? [JM] Yes. Per their contract, the RPC keeps records of edits and author interactions. These records are not public. Best regards, Jean >> >> >>     I can't answer that. But I suspect that there might, rarely, be >> matters >>     that would be considered private, especially for the Independent >> Stream >>     if publishing a proprietary spec. So any policy for making the >> records >>     public would need to allow privacy exceptions. >> >> >> Agreed. I don't actually have strong feelings about any of this and >> would >> be fine if we struck this text. I'm just trying to review it from the >> perspective >> of "does this say what we want" and "can it be executed"? > > Before we settle this issue, I'd like to hear from Jay (who is on > vacation) or RPC folks. > > Peter > From nobody Thu Jan 13 15:49:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6943A0CC3 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:49:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=AMGrK/Hj; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Mjjz9+L5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5VYVIo6CLMFG for ; 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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:49:49 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <6ccbd9da-a618-7cb1-3171-b44181d4a1d0@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:49:47 +1100 Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <6ccbd9da-a618-7cb1-3171-b44181d4a1d0@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:49:58 -0000 > On 14 Jan 2022, at 9:57 am, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 >>>> * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the = Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion on = the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. Also, it = makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method of handling = vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, To ensure the = smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only of the stream = representatives enumerated above." >> This needs to be addressed. >=20 > In my working version I've removed the "in effect" clause. So, that makes the RSCE the official representative of the Editorial = stream. Is that our intent? If so, this note has become self-contradictory: > Note: this method of handling vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of = the RSCE role, handling vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the = RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above. ... as the RSCE *is* 'one of the stream representatives enumerated = above.' Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Jan 13 15:57:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B043A0E47 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:57:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=C5mvRQ2K; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=PAsAfQra Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eqKaDB7rIhjH for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0F223A0E12 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FCC5C00F8; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:57:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=2 /vXtPacZtar6ULdo4dp5cOIsMJUYu4idk3ql20Wn3M=; b=C5mvRQ2KuZSI+QXYQ SFVGq874ZGvs7u2BPW7tbFG0DHhpfqzcBvphXiMT7ODBywl0pPKIVj0EPqF5dZsP /4D92JCXTWxmAO75n+9N2xx4YfiqcUN9j9wDg3X5nj0o3wFSg9Z4VjJBOjDkNPi7 6q5P9ZvbMx36DBbLFpyDMKIjIXxBSCx+9fjU6bltrovpPEHHFAATkAGYgIQ2JX3T VxiRNeLt1q/nviMU7vYQ1mqMIJm48U5LroV0HexbJthPLxdfNCvtYmalac5lNmF8 goraGl07B4eObV92Riq4moXUQJ4KT1gdzf+mbnFc3dD7vIuqJ9iRIrs3GwUZZ6ju r4jKw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=2/vXtPacZtar6ULdo4dp5cOIsMJUYu4idk3ql20Wn 3M=; b=PAsAfQralFbY3NA+EM1DDMtUyS4cgrFUUIoy57wawWDQi0EKxPe66Cyp0 35r0jJ2bT4SJ36On4cQQFmOhWqhrlmLqYjJpadZ5nIp/z2pQtUbeNhfi02X5bt9K 4jD/moQ0YPsecQH9IspKoKKhntZNmmSESXG9QvvvSECk2w38TfdLEWmCcCARg9pz uCcte59xvVsydFrvxKa8AKROKxV+deB2zFymv3pAE0tXNisBx1paLKPNs9o2e4XR XWE0FHfEQQFB0/+Naz0kHWkiTg7W5kY6d6QGOqAiVaGA2OIHYDXpUjKcqU5QWlZ8 ZCB8LzU2uWEWxn3vVJjYkwPPvO0nw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdeggdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhgeetgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeuheef leekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:57:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50d55c0e-c2cb-7880-944b-99359e76f441@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:57:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <6ccbd9da-a618-7cb1-3171-b44181d4a1d0@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:57:35 -0000 On 1/13/22 4:49 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> On 14 Jan 2022, at 9:57 am, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >>>>> * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion on the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. Also, it makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method of handling vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, To ensure the smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only of the stream representatives enumerated above." >>> This needs to be addressed. >> >> In my working version I've removed the "in effect" clause. > > So, that makes the RSCE the official representative of the Editorial stream. Is that our intent? No. The next text saiys: The RSAB consists primarily of the following voting members: * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member or other person appointed by the IESG * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or other person appointed by the IAB * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair or other person appointed by the IRTF Chair * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) [RFC8730] or other person appointed by the ISE * The RFC Series Consulting Editor Therefore the RSCE is NOT a stream representative. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 13 15:58:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C653A0EB8 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=WXhNvCrE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ZHj3H1NV Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vw1a8eonqe-d for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81C8A3A0EB7 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96EC43202069; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:58:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=I PRiIFqlnM2jgA1l4edcZxZwF5mnXgNTNfGnWvnsx+Q=; b=WXhNvCrEDBXX0/HgS ZnfGs+1jhn1XzDKPHDNSsb5YZ3QDcts0e/pPUWLJShKNyrdkL9UUs8tPduxyBxvc ocZb+RwJrOVi430/wh1p0iZfGIHRnIVVLWXw6I371nO0rsb1nqR/M4ixRFVW/h2N j5HnBsYDY2co9svhFYwHgMRdJiQoepo0SODyb7F7+17Z2TbSc3fmeWKibR2cLVXv SRd2+4/FwV3YVIv3W48lvMNL6wNquktotJJDP0SZIwnq9h35aAL3/lftCSO/SR34 h+VRWnYZrlAqZbKerv44jlVQBXAwJOh7U6F8u6fiLuuNestL/i5WG9enJBgcSxGp DkQzQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=IPRiIFqlnM2jgA1l4edcZxZwF5mnXgNTNfGnWvnsx +Q=; b=ZHj3H1NV5HgRfQVXIZJ8ndCeSs03pyRfi4OcotEuZKo1D+NK8Xv+F+rJl oZcVgLbh+YoME48EADCib0376B1BGhXe0Y0XRZef1fPG2XQvXeN1N+SfeOHYmOpw azD9KEvCD1W9Fkgu/wW7hmKrAQPF2/aCutS6Pm7rQMnbBTyEkE552lOG+S3apCWI ndjIazxeHcCyNRvuNiApkqjJaz2ogKBYfYVed4mnWkig3d2zo+IBvR1001PLymQB qTZOpxpdY+W9guHoP5UE8KC06U2LTGbYiSfqQFGT7WctQGBqs5LzVUkmHxhoRvNy YXH2h6osPAZnY30ma15QL+Ac3oJew== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdeggdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:58:27 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <50d55c0e-c2cb-7880-944b-99359e76f441@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:58:26 +1100 Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <32513C69-CF5B-47C5-A64B-9F5EE719D3E9@mnot.net> References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <6ccbd9da-a618-7cb1-3171-b44181d4a1d0@stpeter.im> <50d55c0e-c2cb-7880-944b-99359e76f441@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:58:35 -0000 Ah - I thought you'd just removed "in effect" -- looks good. Thanks, > On 14 Jan 2022, at 10:57 am, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 1/13/22 4:49 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 14 Jan 2022, at 9:57 am, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >>>=20 >>>>>> * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the = Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion on = the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. Also, it = makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method of handling = vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, To ensure the = smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only of the stream = representatives enumerated above." >>>> This needs to be addressed. >>>=20 >>> In my working version I've removed the "in effect" clause. >> So, that makes the RSCE the official representative of the Editorial = stream. Is that our intent? >=20 > No. The next text saiys: >=20 > The RSAB consists primarily of the following voting members: >=20 > * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member > or other person appointed by the IESG >=20 > * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or > other person appointed by the IAB >=20 > * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair > or other person appointed by the IRTF Chair >=20 > * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the > Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) [RFC8730] or other person > appointed by the ISE >=20 > * The RFC Series Consulting Editor >=20 > Therefore the RSCE is NOT a stream representative. >=20 > Peter -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Jan 13 15:59:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E012F3A0EC4 for ; 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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:59:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <05ed1ce8-1850-f97c-61cd-fd9512a21fdf@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:59:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <6ccbd9da-a618-7cb1-3171-b44181d4a1d0@stpeter.im> <50d55c0e-c2cb-7880-944b-99359e76f441@stpeter.im> <32513C69-CF5B-47C5-A64B-9F5EE719D3E9@mnot.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <32513C69-CF5B-47C5-A64B-9F5EE719D3E9@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-08.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:59:35 -0000 Great. s/next text saiys/new text says/ :-) On 1/13/22 4:58 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Ah - I thought you'd just removed "in effect" -- looks good. > > Thanks, > > >> On 14 Jan 2022, at 10:57 am, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 1/13/22 4:49 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> On 14 Jan 2022, at 9:57 am, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> * "The RFC Series Consulting Editor, in effect representing the Editorial Stream" -- my understanding was that the RSCE's inclusion on the RSAB was not only for this purpose, so this could mislead. Also, it makes this text somewhat contradictory: "Note: this method of handling vacancies does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, To ensure the smooth operation of the RFC Series, the RSAB shall only of the stream representatives enumerated above." >>>>> This needs to be addressed. >>>> >>>> In my working version I've removed the "in effect" clause. >>> So, that makes the RSCE the official representative of the Editorial stream. Is that our intent? >> >> No. The next text saiys: >> >> The RSAB consists primarily of the following voting members: >> >> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member >> or other person appointed by the IESG >> >> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or >> other person appointed by the IAB >> >> * As the stream representative for the IRTF stream, the IRTF chair >> or other person appointed by the IRTF Chair >> >> * As the stream representative for the Independent stream, the >> Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) [RFC8730] or other person >> appointed by the ISE >> >> * The RFC Series Consulting Editor >> >> Therefore the RSCE is NOT a stream representative. >> >> Peter > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Thu Jan 13 16:02:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3E23A0EDD for ; 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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:02:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:01:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Jean Mahoney , Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <06414ab1-c53f-e542-52ff-800b99c23ef1@gmail.com> <48449fa5-16f1-e8e6-c498-54d3506d93a7@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 147 [WGLC Review of the draft] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:02:06 -0000 On 1/13/22 4:26 PM, Jean Mahoney wrote: > (with my RPC hat on) > [JM] Yes. Per their contract, the RPC keeps records of edits and author > interactions. These records are not public. Hi Jean, thanks for the clarification! 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f16sm4069599pfj.6.2022.01.13.16.28.34 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:28:35 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:28:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:28:43 -0000 This may be bike shedding, but I had a horrible thought last night. Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might imagine that the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. We know that this really means "RFC Series Policy Approval Board (RSPAB)". Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Thu Jan 13 16:30:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41163A10D1 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:30:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=gICEi1RY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=BM7NWZq0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T7DZq9SG0pwR for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 990893A10CD for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082B65C01D1; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:30:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=Q lVu3qVO7zRym659M+Jp6mzTeOc5AbbGBWdxMgUUSzE=; b=gICEi1RYeKfwU0A5y JC+auJbGSCvzdYOHUzG9owEzunQg3zw7IKeLPgqzaXjzYjtOTm4G+jV9eVdBhr5/ nurQ9OEzPlGhaHASvQPqPY9z25G7Jk1mtcKnjNscDp6pilAI+VQaVCXnsXk+gLGV KK1GM05SXnPctwMAbbpA90QhC1fE14T0Cg9SudPkk8v6Y5JgOjcERB8FbEU2Pf1J gTcHs3S1/P9XuudpSGDcKxVmFM/UJyoQtb/uSv8wS4/rNZ3ptk6py17FszVG/J2p wy5p7HMK0J7PCwtfratPLN8NDgyrYCZP4zQE5+XbiLkiZfOMNyjCGC8GohLzlIrR KdC0A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=QlVu3qVO7zRym659M+Jp6mzTeOc5AbbGBWdxMgUUS zE=; b=BM7NWZq0eZeNAkqysj9PCyzXXJGEfhOec7tqKmUsw77CrG/4we5QgbCCj BizQdnozagRZBr6QMhvpVAxOtB0ZnYl2mmIdNwpyc0umzsn8T7PmNNFB16OG3TF7 fqwL1pftXwd0WuG795rsqXgQ2i8ddlxHnGoy23AwYjbSvoLuaHIChjT+PNa1TzxC /GpuO+epYSn/gNzgNQlu+cyLl3R73V3xoVpDUvEfV/nkLiCVIzKVYoYB7JSlNilJ xAj0+3/515H3ZXFgRqwbp5e53gOIv9rnSEZ7ivgb5D+BQ1PCQfllreZz5tL8r7JB t0OvmIW/7d3VzLk8AXLjg/MUH4zQw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdeggddvfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepuedtkefhtdfggfejjeegkeevheefhffguefgheefgfegkefhiedtgeduvedufeei necuffhomhgrihhnpehirggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:30:40 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:30:38 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:30:47 -0000 Well found. Friendly amendment: "Board for Approval of RFC Series Policy" -- a.k.a. = "BARSP". Cheers, > On 14 Jan 2022, at 11:28 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > This may be bike shedding, but I had a horrible thought last night. = Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. >=20 > "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" >=20 > Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might imagine that = the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. >=20 > We know that this really means "RFC Series Policy Approval Board = (RSPAB)". >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Jan 13 16:38:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72483A113B for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=QLCJKXtq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=KhR1mveb Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tXhF7YjXn4lO for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 182763A113C for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465695C00ED; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:38:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=f HWBZY/rKXoBMzEwzXwXHpK0BT5kDGkkS+vxt8AO9DE=; b=QLCJKXtqW+ugmWbI3 KGRDgkJMSXMAyoqHuk0FNw1SfYF1UdlMv4FPul2LY21LDzrvTzoy6izDdGoUvjMq HMfswWhXX60oSXequ2Vfjm8bYqsn4jKZ8asL+fhPBT/+GCWRevZyck791ZI/AG4u CJA5r/o2UIQHID+9AdmKCmxiBbznoGNlTWRtr0EN9sMRyhq5ZPSH65BUV3ztbk62 r2LPgNJCSykfx3CSjGyZ1eqc+eCuKKCS/DzX+aEmUMKP2IGVjfKW3hkg3X/ESe3L QCWeZXeF2jBQuaFOwnTnEAHYWrkF9XDrOuMbtzb6dvqFJ4Bmbf5UPeKkJR9+UicV Z5WgQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=fHWBZY/rKXoBMzEwzXwXHpK0BT5kDGkkS+vxt8AO9 DE=; b=KhR1mvebQDrPZZzWoSgtgpLdnd4x1fsPe7sWVyv7VjbHadaxGA0fyoqPb azBvjPdQcs5500dvjQtV85Cq5e4XnR4QNUXxEToaKRRiujQthIk803DRHvZww/K4 oLBudBKs1+QB1F3EBGZ3TDiYuAD52TcyZovx51Q/Gcb5+orh9cQW1fYzlai1462J 8pafinUijWbV8+hbuDnKU1HZ1m119sj6Pj2eLQR8oxZ1qnTFde8oNYEahJ+a5Kha lu6dzOcyOfPE7m9rNW4aiHbrEBk/l1R3E7bYdiVDuXn/uW+gT7rU5jTAvpOJoTIR J09g3JnukEoHS5GGepUQDNtLJiXvA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdeggddvgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehtefhvdejvdfhgeetgefhfeeuudefkeetvdfhkeelleeuheef leekkeekieffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:38:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:38:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:38:15 -0000 On 1/13/22 5:28 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > This may be bike shedding, It gladdens me that we've reached the bikeshedding phase. > but I had a horrible thought last night. > Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. > > "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" > > Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might imagine that > the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. Might they also imagine that the RSWG is the place where all RFCs are developed? > We know that this really means "RFC Series Policy Approval Board (RSPAB)". It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but I don't particularly care about that as long as we've defined roles and responsibilities properly. Peter From nobody Thu Jan 13 17:11:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D823A12B7 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:11:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3p7S8sCHQBu7 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 759C83A12B6 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id h23so1430652pgk.11 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:11:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GzkJ3SIDwxGUL6efPIqMgNAj7GSvOhu0ZfceGqM8GGE=; b=Jy4Y6c0mD9TG88fhAHM2tf4Gy6aPp3xZ0SwsZimeR+dBnevGjCWtfiIr7KniquUjna z4E1nQe84vravbQwE3iGvFklIqzoAjfm/ivrJvgXg04PAfkETkEhRvPFG7pI8tvPH8KS 8G6/PA3WFlAR+s1lXIK6IjcaAltI+p4ZOS2e1Y5w/3AQu+vxhtnUyRSbZatmO5dndqO3 OnkxXplJZVVfn+ISjKQAlk5bCA444LQUSQL2EHMJv0ZNawxzUxEOepqKd2LqwhJWfWB0 aX104RmS7rEEhnD6TtxtMmk/y6YUBIT0SfaLkxhPcvGRh/YYpAbQ/sLlUFVi4+EG7HQh HwjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GzkJ3SIDwxGUL6efPIqMgNAj7GSvOhu0ZfceGqM8GGE=; b=NibbabnoqRiSR0LvFcFIoPNp6EQ1IwXD/KPCmjoAfhF3HNTsOW6oB/8gU7+AaT8ZIa t6LHBatEJblNTHWf4SHpNb5RlgasNXJCy8GQFoMCGNhWcSr1B+139IGhOMY/kDRe+5xr FuBiD/P5imYqf+Xcex+ffT7SOhBtlEnPB5N0po4BTEVvqL8J3AUY/P4Bhc1UzWerTZ7S 3vr/Xhh84ZrGYYD3zhkT5xACmAS/splS0q1QS0sLFAcNMjFbc+piyPqWIk163Y9ZDsRm QnMvmSeo1X9NR9/S4wPW4Ea0bjwLrxu3qWP0eZ/mqfg7uUJwirx3XdVL04P38ALwYoql lwBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532jYG5VWuralFS6Dsf6k88at2PsNp0ZjZhLF/pR3QFhlp81lzGP hEHnsFHRWYTZNd9kcUr0t+nasops0DpxwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWmzJRJl6siJsRPz3hlmaLbkT8zQISECD6MUsRCyo4y+QXkIt8Y4fM+d+gCQlcEMP9B3BqaQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2ac:b0:4bd:e223:3d1 with SMTP id q12-20020a056a0002ac00b004bde22303d1mr6670354pfs.86.1642122702267; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x25sm3855849pfu.8.2022.01.13.17.11.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:11:41 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <85ea06d1-428c-875a-b692-0024ac4b9e67@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:11:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:11:47 -0000 On 14-Jan-22 13:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 1/13/22 5:28 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> This may be bike shedding, > > It gladdens me that we've reached the bikeshedding phase. > >> but I had a horrible thought last night. >> Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. >> >> "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" >> >> Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might imagine that >> the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. > > Might they also imagine that the RSWG is the place where all RFCs are > developed? I debated that with myself and decided that it really wouldn't matter - it's the word "Board" that tends to suggest authority. > >> We know that this really means "RFC Series Policy Approval Board (RSPAB)". > > It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but I don't particularly care > about that as long as we've defined roles and responsibilities properly. Oh, we can discuss the exact title and the font colour, and how to spell "colour", if we want ;-). Brian > > Peter > From nobody Thu Jan 13 17:13:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02913A12D1 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:13:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFp_UmaK9Dqp for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 409EB3A12D0 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n8B9w-0005mx-6i; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 20:13:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 20:13:33 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <6BE0C6F244B127024770C350@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:13:49 -0000 --On Friday, January 14, 2022 11:30 +1100 Mark Nottingham wrote: > Well found. > > Friendly amendment: "Board for Approval of RFC Series Policy" > -- a.k.a. "BARSP". Which, if we are already wandering around the Bike Shed, could also be an abbreviation indicating Silly Procedures carried out in the Bar, presumably accompanied by the sort of strong drink the procedures may require. Anyone want to change "RPC" to either a four-letter abbreviation consistent with others (RSPC ?) or to something else entirely on the grounds that "RPC" could be interpreted as something having to do with Rendering Pig Cadavers? Noting Peter's comment about RSWG and adding the possibility that it could actually stand for "RFC Series Writing Group" and remembering that "RFC" has not actually stood for "Request for Comment" for many years, may I propose we just stop, assume that no short abbreviation or acronym we pick will be confusion-proof for a sufficiently imaginative and clueless reader, and move on? Sigh. john >> On 14 Jan 2022, at 11:28 am, Brian E Carpenter >> wrote: >> >> This may be bike shedding, but I had a horrible thought last >> night. Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. >> >> "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" >> >> Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might >> imagine that the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. >> >> We know that this really means "RFC Series Policy Approval >> Board (RSPAB)". >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Jan 13 17:39:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD3B3A1411 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:39:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d30iwWUi3rEu for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07D933A140E for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id l16-20020a17090a409000b001b2e9628c9cso12734135pjg.4 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:39:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k46ibDAqk/KtFsLDK0ks/Q3UIm5IMzdk33HLSGMkfPE=; b=iq37ZJSNyFTnXRFJI7ahm8Mm+5AP4W3nHJ83835H5T3xoDGS7PvKdD8BRK6JGTc3uM Z2eP1xqCbjiVoLOZVQg+09JuhA4IXy7Gb8T3G5BGcvlnLX11QyHEarNxMAl93ZEzLej7 Ak8kqvJZdlD3W4poks9xpgWh59LEqhuQHCzGpC7Lc4Qa+jyFZiBxu3it7O4HGj5MdIMW HKMmimeew+eHv7J75A5vKX2QFHQ7JRyN7d01zRoo4FBAlLXtXPKPehyQNj1nzhALfVR3 gRx9VzoAA0jjWc9CLB93mg5oxYKOCCe55I2McGxYNGTdvw7v/n5mope5yezIC1/UfOHD vlwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=k46ibDAqk/KtFsLDK0ks/Q3UIm5IMzdk33HLSGMkfPE=; b=kNfSwLbjfFfX6bo6unSt87vnc3Ehe+w6PI40rxbWfR6eYAbp2Vjol5CiU6gxsH//cI IUWUh/mxEOycsT3SWtlbf811aLvbYnbAPqH/Ec356W1xp/p9rlsreoXWpChx7u7gLISd 1YycyE1U48Ne04mZU/tEh/vRzWL234Zn+vIGXRzgN3a7OHGt3FEG/Z13nUtOyj4bMnBm zVklBPQ07qJcVoZ5jRnNN+7NG+TQVtK1GCVvjuOnSqHWgpczn1QKaSnhxeCLXhyUY4V0 CBs3q0R8YVxjW9iaN78Qlz48XbJqF4TqFupGrXMwRZOnHxCmUKTeegRerOXj9epc6a4+ oD5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323duv3W6iffO9s7uCY482CLCKcpS/D31TG38B/f65T3XkBbnu6 nxCPlfATxVeGnpY2Q2nN7mF/WEuJdUNjvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxARS0dHUh44E1Y11NtclNLanmg4u6FTScvSswt2+wNauaa2r9XDc7axs02ZytfSp9TU5b8Sw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:6b49:: with SMTP id x9mr17384769pjl.166.1642124378827; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i23sm3191377pgi.92.2022.01.13.17.39.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:39:38 -0800 (PST) To: John C Klensin , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> <6BE0C6F244B127024770C350@PSB> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <389f6bef-1c06-a152-0b51-decd956961ba@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:39:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6BE0C6F244B127024770C350@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:39:46 -0000 I can certainly accept "We've thought about it and we don't care" if there's consensus for that. (I would, however, hold one "I told you so" in credit for later use :-) Before anyone suggests RSPB, https://www.rspb.org.uk/ Regards Brian On 14-Jan-22 14:13, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Friday, January 14, 2022 11:30 +1100 Mark Nottingham > wrote: > >> Well found. >> >> Friendly amendment: "Board for Approval of RFC Series Policy" >> -- a.k.a. "BARSP". > > > Which, if we are already wandering around the Bike Shed, could > also be an abbreviation indicating Silly Procedures carried out > in the Bar, presumably accompanied by the sort of strong drink > the procedures may require. Anyone want to change "RPC" to > either a four-letter abbreviation consistent with others (RSPC > ?) or to something else entirely on the grounds that "RPC" could > be interpreted as something having to do with Rendering Pig > Cadavers? > > Noting Peter's comment about RSWG and adding the possibility > that it could actually stand for "RFC Series Writing Group" and > remembering that "RFC" has not actually stood for "Request for > Comment" for many years, may I propose we just stop, assume that > no short abbreviation or acronym we pick will be confusion-proof > for a sufficiently imaginative and clueless reader, and move on? > > > Sigh. > john > > >>> On 14 Jan 2022, at 11:28 am, Brian E Carpenter >>> wrote: >>> >>> This may be bike shedding, but I had a horrible thought last >>> night. Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. >>> >>> "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" >>> >>> Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might >>> imagine that the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. >>> >>> We know that this really means "RFC Series Policy Approval >>> Board (RSPAB)". >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian Carpenter >>> >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > From nobody Thu Jan 13 18:48:05 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7881A3A1713 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:48:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7sWBVMB1Gpf7 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 858EE3A1712 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n8Cd7-00064C-Hd; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 21:47:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 21:47:46 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85ea06d1-428c-875a-b692-0024ac4b9e67@gmail.com> References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> <85ea06d1-428c-875a-b692-0024ac4b9e67@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:48:04 -0000 (slightly less snarky) --On Friday, January 14, 2022 14:11 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 14-Jan-22 13:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 1/13/22 5:28 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> This may be bike shedding, >> >> It gladdens me that we've reached the bikeshedding phase. >> >>> but I had a horrible thought last night. >>> Sorry to arrive with this at such a late stage. >>> >>> "RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB)" >>> >>> Suppose an outsider sees this out of context? They might >>> imagine that the RSAB is there to approve RFCs. >> >> Might they also imagine that the RSWG is the place where all >> RFCs are developed? > > I debated that with myself and decided that it really wouldn't > matter - it's the word "Board" that tends to suggest authority. But maybe the "B" stands for "Body" or even "Bakery". Or, more likely, the "A" is interpreted, not as "Approval" but as "Advisory". If we had used "RFCAB", then it would be rational to assume that it was a group advising on or approving RFCs. But we picked "RS" to convey the idea that this was about the Series (not individual documents) and "Approval Board" would then refer to approving things about the Series and not individual documents, which, I think, is exactly what we wanted. FWIW, I also note the IETF's history of choosing atrocious and, in some cases, so cute as to be deliberately misleading, abbreviations and acronyms for WGs. We have also had real world problems with the Internet Advertising Board and the Intergalactic Astronomy Bureau probably lies in our near-time future.. Anyone with any experience reading our documents has learned to be careful about understanding our acronyms. FWIW, the RFC Editor has had longstanding policies about this sort of thing. Sorry, but I suspect we have better and more productive ways to spend our time. But, because it just came in as I was writing... --On Friday, January 14, 2022 14:39 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I can certainly accept "We've thought about it and we don't > care" if there's consensus for that. > > (I would, however, hold one "I told you so" in credit for > later use :-) > > Before anyone suggests RSPB, https://www.rspb.org.uk/ But, as sort of suggested above, we've had RSVP (see either www.rsvp.com or www.rsvp.org). If one picked a random sample of people with more than a modicum of training in computer scientist and ask them what LISP was, how many of them do you think would guess an IETF WG rather than, for example, something that would lead them to an obit for John McCarthy (www.lisp.org)? Or how about rum? Nope, Captain Morgan has been there. And those don't even get to trying to treat the terms as acronyms or abbreviations. If you want to go down that path, try asap.org. Going to the birds suddenly feels more attractive. john From nobody Fri Jan 14 02:13:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384723A20DA for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:13:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDLyPPwrE5NU for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31E103A20D8 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::5] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:5]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 20EAD5cJ026333 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:13:06 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1642155186; bh=xRLxOA3M35Xj4ifwZRR9AG4Onkql6wzPoyLQLgoBG8g=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=emNycRfgsqp62VuKUrqq0BRRalAQmKSPtp3EMM9wU57qqBxuhmKDrA5ZQ+YQMcU1T HIwzOFvV5XFSYvUIG5BEiz8QLQJx8n6SJCI0Ef6EKP+xt4OdbL9PQ6oOH4MDlnqmPP LiZ5hBOQ9kBhtjseqJQyPEaJ/oUVXThp6r5J1Nmo= Message-ID: <1cf4cb32-6fa8-98ff-9710-bd67a938dc0e@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:13:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <164159953944.5205.10517887235280838552@ietfa.amsl.com> <1e6664f9-f19d-a226-e709-d03fe6968497@stpeter.im> <116833C8-6D7C-43B3-A91A-E63FCCE7C448@mnot.net> <14bde881-ae07-a3a6-b458-39ed69c05c36@stpeter.im> <5dc3d1ec-9fc5-d708-89cd-6e1b659b73ae@gmail.com> <85ea06d1-428c-875a-b692-0024ac4b9e67@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------LUsuKURCkmgfg7Op3d3LOKaO" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:13:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------LUsuKURCkmgfg7Op3d3LOKaO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------einAVPww2v9gyoej5E2vgcdN"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <1cf4cb32-6fa8-98ff-9710-bd67a938dc0e@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Bike shedding? 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fefhteetveegffekffefteffvdelheduieetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtg homhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegu ohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 02:40:50 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============0244623193365219651==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: rfced-future@iab.org Message-Id: <20220116081131.6AD053A0D8D@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 00:11:31 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 08:11:38 -0000 --===============0244623193365219651== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events=20 Issues ------ * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC4) 3 issues received 4 new comments: - #152 Different process for temporary RSCE volunteers? (1 by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/152 [Propos= e to close]=20 - #151 Consultation regarding the RSCE selection committee (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/151 [In Dis= cussion]=20 - #143 Is there a public archive for the RSAB email list? (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/143 [Candid= ate Text: Consensus call started]=20 1 issues closed: - Different process for temporary RSCE volunteers? https://github.com/int= archboard/program-rfced-future/issues/152 [Propose to close]=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future --===============0244623193365219651== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity= Summary)

Sunday January 16, 2022

Events

Issues

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC4)

3 issues received 4 new comments:

1 issues closed:

Repositories tracked by this digest:
--===============0244623193365219651==-- From nobody Sun Jan 16 09:42:05 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52693A16D6 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.814 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.814 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=I3F8k+yB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=BckhEp8m Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvDYwVyHNZs4 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA1213A16D1 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61085320024A; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 12:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 16 Jan 2022 12:41:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=i RTIlAAIIbhfrFqBeaqdQCpaaDsmmiQsnrztYOPzLs0=; b=I3F8k+yB1BFS+pJL+ 2XL6HpX/d4iCFcRynfDu4shbdDPLjsv3TU9/dN07yXUzDx6HXNI8dMBVCok7sk90 C8K8fpPaVJ6ygiqQLEP0TVRUC78xaW/lMozkMcU+5gXr0LBLh2x1FWo8uBv5dV+/ hTbBPQU9Xp3YECezwSawHV+MluMqVjsmWgtMpEyvWC/LRpCDWVZp+8MVE1G+emc7 rWPHjxzGKaK1GQqMF8fgjmnfY3ezGy+O6B6T3r5ktIG80PEZu9jIAlpXxt6Sd4Y1 +256MrxRUYEH/CorouxtlEzbzG15zyPTxAgVsU4fcCF2sTte103HS06Pu5b8aSRq i1VsQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=iRTIlAAIIbhfrFqBeaqdQCpaaDsmmiQsnrztYOPzL s0=; b=BckhEp8mwaTfkXo0BcvU23tosuSocw6b1nHm6QbenAIR3NsS+mdAQyW20 Z2/bFN2mv7H1fZhLmN5SOG6e28p09a8CbpxK4lRA12NW/0oN/jrS32SWwMqMdXC8 4MMTYSABDEA15Mozivaqn/w8Qnp8m7x3Vkngt01OLiNuqm322zdFgN4gtMDkX7M4 XGd+OjrSZDBu0OnYk4ppPETanR2WLIuvRnc9Ro0rRAGi7p9ilqCplsF0/E567YcL vHGzIecwtKmcTV+TO9eFvzDSSFbN7St4cHvGsisbCAazAh1Xcd+/zjrjvGGG8Ywx lObtIS0HBiBlgs43dmtt4wYOYLb/A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrtdelgddutdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 12:41:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <39e43f1d-e360-ae5f-1783-2995cb428ce0@stpeter.im> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 10:41:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen References: From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] 2nd Last Call: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-10 ends 30 Jan 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 17:42:04 -0000 For avoidance of doubt, that's surely 30 January 2022, not 2021. :-) On 1/15/22 11:06 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Colleagues: > > This begins the program last call on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-10. > The comment period will end on 30 Jan 2021.  Because this is the second > call, we are asking that people ask themselves whether a concern rises > to the level of a real showstopper before commenting. > > If the last call requires further changes, we will work through them and > ask Peter to publish a new draft. We will then forward the program draft > to the IAB for further processing. > > Brian & Eliot > > From nobody Sun Jan 16 09:51:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992BE3A174E for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:51:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MAD26AAJAX6G for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F5453A174D for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.227] (77-58-144-232.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.144.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 20GHop4L072537 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Jan 2022 18:50:51 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1642355451; bh=ciYtaek8O2QsfM3EoBmF9se6oKrinNQjRODUbDLy3JE=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=K4puaFlGdIegnXwOkDLhqCQO58s6VnOAAlKvgooHW1SW1JCNk8AxfTuhhuMmvXAyo meDSmbelCw/VqvsgBQSCdvMs2f4+p3Q364oqzcDPp92feW8vR+EyA7S8vzvvprNZpk 7pDV7JpNkzC31Hyg9lmO6FSUHY67NSByBNJ5Bz1k= Message-ID: <0bd4b021-9c99-5907-1dce-4992399d07dc@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 18:50:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen References: <39e43f1d-e360-ae5f-1783-2995cb428ce0@stpeter.im> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <39e43f1d-e360-ae5f-1783-2995cb428ce0@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------eL24etsRVPlSVKnYJsXenH3U" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] 2nd Last Call: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-10 ends 30 Jan 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmHkWvsFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOv sggAuvUmMPEKFQsfhzwIvLD51402asogc8s9Q9PZnW/EnOs4Dqdddtd1BCJEaybMq9ivrQh0U78T pFx1EAmal3YVHtX0R+0X9VkC2iIa+LlZ7N20cmZJN3HyM5WUeiIwx1iO1Oj+ZgYoBAhPWcAR2rdW RiyLjYE0LnyYqtr2FprGP7fEm/qZweqL+BuxBu0UuK0fXUfQjjmJlW2IcYOiWdGrBQGlcjGGzdAy enrf7hNGZ/jbM8anW3+qTmdvjpISTpCCxprn/sjj96cySoBN7lkL5TUwW6FXnNrfvZIX4y0Wnltz 0U3Ottn3uAWIQ9EQ1yiSZHSJ9zXC8T+9LklflQKAHw== =B7NE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------eL24etsRVPlSVKnYJsXenH3U-- From nobody Wed Jan 19 12:32:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CA73A1AAD for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:32:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 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protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------P6eXuLOwphxqn1f2prLz0jyh" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] editorials X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:32:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------P6eXuLOwphxqn1f2prLz0jyh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1KRCgByfeOdWMhJOsuwlfxOa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <5fef4593-2b91-eb74-3f9d-cdfb4d33b5bd@lear.ch> Subject: editorials --------------1KRCgByfeOdWMhJOsuwlfxOa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------jIsY3gQif6WIupC5R0JNUNYP" --------------jIsY3gQif6WIupC5R0JNUNYP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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fjughrpegtggfhvffusegrtddtredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpeftvghpohhsihhtohhrhicu tegtthhivhhithihucfuuhhmmhgrrhihuceuohhtuceoughopghnohhtpghrvghplhihse hmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeefvdduteejvdefkeehieevuefg fefhteetveegffekffefteffvdelheduieetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtg homhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpeegnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegu ohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2022 02:39:18 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============1407472239786962541==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: rfced-future@iab.org Message-Id: <20220123081607.82B9F3A1C50@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 00:16:07 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 08:16:12 -0000 --===============1407472239786962541== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events=20 Pull requests ------------- * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 pull requests submitted: - proposed editorial fixes in -10 (by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/153=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future --===============1407472239786962541== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity= Summary)

Sunday January 23, 2022

Events

Pull requests

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 pull requests submitted:

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--===============1407472239786962541==-- From nobody Sun Jan 23 10:40:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581173A2547 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:40:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tehx4JYmi4bN for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A1C53A2546 for ; 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Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:13:30 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-rsalz-2028bis-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHYEWauSQPXR9Yx7EWw9G1ld3Bny6xyq6qA Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 21:13:30 +0000 Message-ID: <7121F690-E4B7-4872-86E9-DFC81E7A510C@akamai.com> References: <164305856619.28071.15350540482635021646@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <164305856619.28071.15350540482635021646@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7FD00AE55E56464D9DEFDAE7433BF470@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.816 definitions=2022-01-24_07:2022-01-24, 2022-01-24 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2201240137 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: DjeZbCMSSkPMeG1noID9Fawf33tbkyFB X-Proofpoint-GUID: DjeZbCMSSkPMeG1noID9Fawf33tbkyFB X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-24_09,2022-01-24_02,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2201240138 Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsalz-2028bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 21:13:49 -0000 RllJLiAgSSBtYWRlIHNvbWUgY2hhbmdlcyB0byBicmluZyAyMDI4YmlzICh3aGljaCB3YXMgZGlz cGF0Y2hlZCB0byBBRCBzcG9uc29yZWQpIGN1cnJlbnQgd2l0aCB0aGUgUkZDIEVkaXRvciBNb2Rl bCBkcmFmdC4NCg0KSSBjaGFuZ2VkICJSRkMgRWRpdG9yIiB0byAiUkZDIFByb2R1Y3Rpb24gQ2Vu dGVyIChSUEMpIiAgVGhlICJkaWZmIiBsaW5rIGJlbG93IHNob3dzIHdoYXQgSSBtb2RpZmllZC4N Cg0K77u/T24gMS8yNC8yMiwgNDowOSBQTSwgImludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9yZyIgPGlu dGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCg0KICAgIEEgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gb2Yg SS1ELCBkcmFmdC1yc2Fsei0yMDI4YmlzLTA0LnR4dA0KICAgIGhhcyBiZWVuIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxs eSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYnkgUmljaCBTYWx6IGFuZCBwb3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlDQogICAgSUVURiByZXBv c2l0b3J5Lg0KDQogICAgTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXJzYWx6LTIwMjhiaXMNCiAgICBSZXZpc2lvbjoJ MDQNCiAgICBUaXRsZToJCUVudGl0aWVzIEludm9sdmVkIGluIHRoZSBJRVRGIFN0YW5kYXJkcyBQ cm9jZXNzDQogICAgRG9jdW1lbnQgZGF0ZToJMjAyMi0wMS0yNA0KICAgIEdyb3VwOgkJSW5kaXZp ZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uDQogICAgUGFnZXM6CQkxMg0KICAgIFN0YXR1czogICAgICAgICBodHRw czovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1yc2Fsei0yMDI4YmlzIA0KICAgIEh0 bWw6ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoaXZlL2lkL2RyYWZ0LXJzYWx6 LTIwMjhiaXMtMDQuaHRtbA0KICAgIEh0bWxpemVkOiAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2Vy LmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXJzYWx6LTIwMjhiaXMgDQogICAgRGlmZjogICAgICAg ICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL3JmY2RpZmY/dXJsMj1kcmFmdC1yc2Fsei0yMDI4Ymlz LTA0DQoNCiAgICBBYnN0cmFjdDoNCiAgICAgICBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGRlc2NyaWJlcyB0aGUg aW5kaXZpZHVhbHMgYW5kIG9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbnMgaW52b2x2ZWQgaW4NCiAgICAgICB0aGUgSUVU RiBzdGFuZGFyZHMgcHJvY2VzcyBhcyBkZXNjcmliZWQgaW4gSUVURiBCQ1AgOS4gIEl0IGluY2x1 ZGVzDQogICAgICAgYnJpZWYgZGVzY3JpcHRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSBlbnRpdGllcyBpbnZvbHZlZCwg YW5kIHRoZSByb2xlIHRoZXkgcGxheQ0KICAgICAgIGluIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZHMgcHJvY2Vzcy4g IFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgb2Jzb2xldGVzIFJGQyAyMDI4Lg0KDQoNCg0KDQogICAgVGhlIElFVEYg U2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Jan 24 14:40:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7393A14AC for ; 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Sun, 30 Jan 2022 02:39:19 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============3727255761644703648==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: rfced-future@iab.org Message-Id: <20220130081553.7AC763A1CFB@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:15:53 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:15:58 -0000 --===============3727255761644703648== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events=20 Issues ------ * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+0/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 7 issues closed: - Consultation regarding the RSCE selection committee https://github.com/= intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/151 [In Discussion]=20 - How do we update This document? https://github.com/intarchboard/program= -rfced-future/issues/134 [Consensus]=20 - Does the RPC create and preserve records https://github.com/intarchboar= d/program-rfced-future/issues/147 [Consensus]=20 - Core RPC responsibilities https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced= -future/issues/146 [Consensus]=20 - CONCERN for unaddressed comments https://github.com/intarchboard/progra= m-rfced-future/issues/145 [Consensus]=20 - Other modes of operation https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-= future/issues/144 [Consensus]=20 - Is there a public archive for the RSAB email list? https://github.com/i= ntarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/143 [Consensus]=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future --===============3727255761644703648== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity= Summary)

Sunday January 30, 2022

Events

Issues

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+0/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

7 issues closed:

Repositories tracked by this digest:
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Dear all,

Program last call has now closed.

We received one set of editorial comments from Brian Carpenter.=C2=A0 I want to detail the proposed changes here, and their disposition for the next draft, which we are asking Peter to post now.=C2=A0 Once posted, we will forward that draft to the= IAB for further processing.

"3.1.1.2. Participation
...This includes participants in the IETF and IRTF, IAB and IESG members, individuals who use RFCs in procurement decisions, authors of RFCs and Internet-Drafts, developers of tools used to author RFCs, scholarly researchers, and so on."

I notice that implementers of code or hardware based on RFCs are not listed. That seems like a significant omission.
=

Peter has expanded the list for consultation as follows:

This includes but is not limited to participants in the IETF and
IRTF, members of the IAB and IESG, developers of software or hardware
systems that implement RFCs, authors o= f RFCs and Internet-Drafts,
developers of tools used to author or edit RFCs, individuals who
use RFCs in= procurement decisions, scholarly researchers, and
representatives of standards development organizations other than
the IETF and IRTF. The IETF LLC Board members, staff and contractors
(especially representatives of the RFC= Production Center), and the
IETF Executive Director are invited to= participate as community
members in the RSWG to the extent permitted by any relevant IETF LLC
policies. Members of the RSAB are also= expected to participate
actively.

This text represents a move of some text from later in the draft, but the normative constructs have not changed.


The explanation might or might not be actionable."

I think that sentence might or might not be actionable. In other words, it's a no-op.

This is text that we have discussed: the implication intended here is that the proposal taken as a whole may be so flawed that no textual change would correct it.=C2=A0 For example: =E2=80=9CA= ll future RFCs SHALL only be published in Klingon".

Peter has proposed the following change:

=
N= evertheless, the RSWG might not be able to
= come to consensus on modifications that will address the RSAB member's
concern.
<= /blockquote>

A missing parenthesis as noted, and a spelling error was corrected.=C2=A0 An internal reference {#} was added.=C2=A0 Some = spacing was modified.

These represent the entirety of proposed changes to the text.

Eliot


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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sp-XeTdPSZgO for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38C33A1573 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nEcme-0008qD-RU; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:56:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:56:11 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Brian Rosen Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] A voice from the rough (was: Re: Program Last Call Results and Next Steps) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:56:25 -0000 --On Monday, January 31, 2022 12:22 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > Program last call has now closed. >=20 > We received one set of editorial comments from Brian > Carpenter.=C2=A0 I want to detail the proposed changes here, = and > their disposition for the next draft, which we are asking > Peter to post now.=C2=A0 Once posted, we will forward that = draft > to the IAB for further processing. >... Eliot, I deliberately deferred sending this note until after the Last Call closed and you wrote your note. It is clear to me that I am in the rough on several issues and will likely be even after the next stages of the process are complete and I do not have any desire to, to use your term, relitigate long-settled issues or otherwise restart the conversation. However, I think it is important to get this view on the record at this point. >From this minority point of view, I believe there are two key points from which we have walked away (or compromised our way away from)... (1) The RFC Series survived and served the community well for nearly a half-century because of some fundamental commonalities (or, if you will, "principles") that provided functional and coherent leadership and operation over those years even as things evolved. One was consistent and clear leadership and, to a significant extent, authority and accountability in the hands of a single individual at a time. Over that period, the individuals who held that role (at least on other than a temporary/interim basis) were either technical publications experts or someone who understood the limitations of his knowledge and was willing and able to reach out to such experts when needed and pay attention to that advice. While there were clearly disadvantages to that approach, it did work and one of the reasons for it is, fwiw, consistent with why the LLC has a single Executive Director with considerable authority rather than being run by a committee or multiple committees with no one person having significant authority or accountability. (2) The IETF's way of doing things, including its working groups, leadership, and management structure, works well because the vast majority of participants are experts in the subject matter to which they try to contribute. People with opinions but no clue are typically swiftly weeded out or simply ignored. However, we tend to assume that, because those mechanisms work well for Internet engineering issues, they will work at least equally well (with the same participants) for entirely unrelated topics. In the particular case of a model built around an RSWG whose participants are IETF participants with the expertise profile of IETF technical participants, I am confident that the RFC Series will evolve in the direction that the consensus of those participants determines... but, because of those expertise and perspective issues, not necessarily in directions that are best for the Internet and its users. As I said, I know I'm in the rough and I hope I'm wrong about where this may lead. But, in case things do not work as well and smoothly as the Program seems to expect, perhaps the above will be useful as both a cautionary note and part of a starting point for whatever might come next. best regards, john From nobody Mon Jan 31 12:23:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA023A1640 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:23:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XEW-ded_j2vU for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FF083A163B for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 20VKNb8G005942; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:37 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCDF4604B; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id E384646048; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([148.252.133.21]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 20VKNZRv011545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:36 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'John C Klensin'" , "'Eliot Lear'" , Cc: "'Peter Saint-Andre'" , "'Brian Rosen'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:35 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <076c01d816e0$6d4d0880$47e71980$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGyJFhSbyBatHld1atvW/Vl0ihjB6zJdRFA Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 148.252.133.21 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-8.6.0.1018-26688.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--3.608-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--3.608-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-8.6.1018-26688.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--3.608200-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IeZYkn8zfFrxIbpQ8BhdbHhfkWVrzox1sRSZLc6Y9S6Sa52iu6/jhmUo D5JLGXzAmxUTlTE0MMHugYf75qB+Mj4bsFilIG5UyKTEsCRIdyW0P8vH4t+8S4PLx3vY4vNiB+E vqmMuRzkJAtqLc92TgJe7bp8XEFlcT5MjSVfsjnhHcnWSrPRrNZYaT3cL9WdKbaZMa0fgRtbjLK PupB6SIyuplNNVYofYiZFyvDXEDNjGC5rzrXtPJQvBTB90+he+KZoK1F/O1EnXjO/sp3prhkZUq iaZ+o8n59roDgpclG1j//xD3qmtG3C9PQeexWpx6KjHv0nYqBAx8U5ikIj+4hnXPhnXzURh+m2Y wXqdQTEVGXGIXV4Um2wqxuUUZRhGJGRycaTaKeW253GzzSji4g5QbtEckQMlzvlYLK4togHxdW6 rT4kFIvyWos330qceI5X0xCVZsAg+D3J+ThgLRpKLzY5ZrthjoIcZ8kDSGx3kIvlD0oBsliLywW Z/CAIYyY2rJHIoKXYPYskfob7lO2MFwILfD7YgvmT2VURehloRVuFekDGWud9RlPzeVuQQSiDeF P1/+gLvt3nUS5MECSFDrWxflyZ5vkk7gmoOajYZSUX8zcPGn7zETYfYS4xZAFUQhPJ3sQ7h06w0 q6p9rMGBhC18bzlkj3vTWuLvwC5fXJAkAdwlnJzEQqkMw+XnfK4IN302ya/UiIlnxoPdGMQ5vcy Cjz1IWqMMIIXpy0kUgcBipBCF5xJdrRm5MVelikdH3EQaETXjZOj64c0Q9naMN1ilusKZLdeibs 83IX2P9mAVU4w0EGowq23ynEFc+uP+8o5xUfOeAiCmPx4NwFkMvWAuahr8i2QFaYS1v20qtq5d3 cxkNfAxRSAc0OENVVWK1k62DHIeaMStJtcelbBWPRst3E23QT3FZlEuNCNr+0tolg6JLNu6S4xW kTellExlQIQeRG0= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A voice from the rough (was: Re: Program Last Call Results and Next Steps) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:23:47 -0000 Hi John, I don=E2=80=99t know how rough rough has to be to be really rough, but I = find myself somewhere in the long grass, if not with you, then close = enough to be considered not on the fairway. (And I wish we would stop = using sporting metaphors that have no meaning to people who don't share = our cultural heritage!) Like you, John, I feel I have had my say earlier in the process and that = to bring the issues up again would be to relitigate discussions. In any = case, I lack the energy to repeat myself to an unwilling audience. Thus, = I kept quiet during this last call. I continue to regret the view of clever people who are experts in their = field that other fields about which they know little can be solved by a = committee of like-minded individuals rather than delegation to an = established expert with whom they disagree. I have seen this mode = operate to failure in other environments, and no doubt comparisons with = the Committee of Public Safety are extreme, but I continue to worry = about where this is all going. I do hope this turns out for the best, and I do admire the effort and = strength demonstrated by key participants. Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of John C = Klensin Sent: 31 January 2022 19:56 To: Eliot Lear ; rfced-future@iab.org Cc: Peter Saint-Andre ; Brian Rosen = Subject: [Rfced-future] A voice from the rough (was: Re: Program Last = Call Results and Next Steps) --On Monday, January 31, 2022 12:22 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > Program last call has now closed. >=20 > We received one set of editorial comments from Brian > Carpenter. I want to detail the proposed changes here, and > their disposition for the next draft, which we are asking > Peter to post now. Once posted, we will forward that draft > to the IAB for further processing. >... Eliot, I deliberately deferred sending this note until after the Last Call closed and you wrote your note. It is clear to me that I am in the rough on several issues and will likely be even after the next stages of the process are complete and I do not have any desire to, to use your term, relitigate long-settled issues or otherwise restart the conversation. However, I think it is important to get this view on the record at this point. >From this minority point of view, I believe there are two key points from which we have walked away (or compromised our way away from)... (1) The RFC Series survived and served the community well for nearly a half-century because of some fundamental commonalities (or, if you will, "principles") that provided functional and coherent leadership and operation over those years even as things evolved. One was consistent and clear leadership and, to a significant extent, authority and accountability in the hands of a single individual at a time. Over that period, the individuals who held that role (at least on other than a temporary/interim basis) were either technical publications experts or someone who understood the limitations of his knowledge and was willing and able to reach out to such experts when needed and pay attention to that advice. While there were clearly disadvantages to that approach, it did work and one of the reasons for it is, fwiw, consistent with why the LLC has a single Executive Director with considerable authority rather than being run by a committee or multiple committees with no one person having significant authority or accountability. (2) The IETF's way of doing things, including its working groups, leadership, and management structure, works well because the vast majority of participants are experts in the subject matter to which they try to contribute. People with opinions but no clue are typically swiftly weeded out or simply ignored. However, we tend to assume that, because those mechanisms work well for Internet engineering issues, they will work at least equally well (with the same participants) for entirely unrelated topics. In the particular case of a model built around an RSWG whose participants are IETF participants with the expertise profile of IETF technical participants, I am confident that the RFC Series will evolve in the direction that the consensus of those participants determines... but, because of those expertise and perspective issues, not necessarily in directions that are best for the Internet and its users. As I said, I know I'm in the rough and I hope I'm wrong about where this may lead. But, in case things do not work as well and smoothly as the Program seems to expect, perhaps the above will be useful as both a cautionary note and part of a starting point for whatever might come next. best regards, john --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Mon Jan 31 17:50:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1043A03F7 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:50:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YOjGhlyFhHnb for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:50:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9F373A03AA for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92EE4096D32 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zerk38IrwRez for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 585234096D30 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Message-Id: <119A2179-3949-46F3-9B42-4F1DD7BBF98E@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:50:03 +1300 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Proposal for RSCE recruitment committee and process X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 01:50:12 -0000 In line with Peter=E2=80=99s proposed text [1], here is my proposal for = the RSCE selection committee and recruitment process, which I would like = community feedback on. I realise that things have not been fully = settled but this recruitment is going to take some time and the sooner = we can start the better. If this is too soon then please let me know. # Rationale 1. The RSCE role is very different from the previous RSE role and for = the recruitment to be a success it is critical that the committee = recruits to the new RSCE role as defined. It would be problematic if = anyone on the committee was not clear about the new role and was = inadvertently targeting the old role. The committee members therefore = need detailed knowledge of the new role, in all its subtleties. 2. The committee needs detailed knowledge of the working environment in = which the new RSCE will operate in order to assess fit and answer = questions. This environment includes the RPC, IETF community, IETF = community leadership and non-IETF RFC community (as such as it exists = and we have knowledge of it). 3. The committee needs good knowledge of the contracting options = available to ensure that these are all properly considered. # Composition I have approached all of the following and they have agreed to provide = their time and expertise to this process. They all have detailed = knowledge of the new role. - Jay Daley, IETF Executive Director (me), recruitment and contracting = expertise - Sandy Ginoza, RPC Director, detailed knowledge of the working = environment - John Levine, Temporary RFC Series PM, detailed knowledge of the = working environment - Peter Saint-Andre, RSOC chair and editor of new model, detailed = knowledge of new model and the working environment - Mike St Johns, community member, detailed knowledge of new model, = contracting expertise # Process a. Get community feedback on all of this and adjust as needed b. In lieu of the RSAB get feedback from the RSOC, IAB and IESG once = community feedback incorporated c. Committee meets to identify community members for the recruiters to = meet with as part of their research and to provide advice to recruiters = on where to look d. Recruiter meets community members and then does its stuff e. Recruitment process f. Committee presents LLC board with one or more recommended = candidates and contracting options for final decision. [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/151 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Jan 31 18:43:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1823A0CBD for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 18:43:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.815 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.815 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=E5ggALsg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VhoZc04E Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4hXZV9cF_C5o for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 18:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D93353A0CB1 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 18:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B623200EAD; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:42:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; bh=0Ck2sCGFNGjq2e Qp0YIkEWmio///uWkl/HxE9W1hJQ0=; b=E5ggALsgyhUxpSO8SG5oyb4jzp6ECa S1B0/UBLcJL6nogB/WXHg6XAYuABZejoOkWzWthgTHLIUSc06LgdXHqihNS85o9z Q25+9WNK+2rSecmnyIHqvRQtBlrm2dIT1KEVS+fLcU6LVz6HmpcN0NPlgPL7M8xj RrO4SOqGAyn06Bcp+xn2mlh06rdNHZgJpK4pCoRzaR71v2oe5/OEO7PyupPS4RJB ma4UZaWNG65EaRV47CUmjXi0K32txMVWLpgTUS8nYYKxAKIgEWBcpWum6DaWcw4C c0iX+ugLB6GFY3JQ8vr9BJ2gn1LGTtJ7307V4ov8dvISAm1fA+dEhatg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=0Ck2sCGFNGjq2eQp0YIkEWmio///uWkl/HxE9W1hJ Q0=; b=VhoZc04E22ro/O5HvsDnYnxBEL4Dn+AzjjisyQgQf6PlC1n31CDZ69Mkk LgU8d1kcCmAN+GTkU2yHiRF2pwBKyTJCEPQ7nLBswKhOptHEO8ngycHCdE435+28 rSPV7/cfKGXvVPJEO3YL5+f73PAIm9MY+rfRfTh3GujcWwTwsp6A2JcYXqLKfwRW +bLvftwPf2t7b3oc9Y1GPqZnq5r9iNq8UOzmk193+NFBd9ZUdyc0FpFNXcKcdeHx s2g88MTrBWfAlaBZyc629E8FA3ppcaDVeqW855CF2EMRiCPNfDHsjoz2qlwne1Cw giktP4Ru26CsGiEqquQ4z2CWn6COQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrgedvgdeglecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevfedvgeeuueehueetfefhhfduhfevheejudfhleeiudffueek leetjefgteelgeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgv thgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:42:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <44675dd7-a908-c35e-5ab0-5448599ab021@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:42:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen References: <7bfd8aa8-e28f-5596-fa66-114317b7a414@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <7bfd8aa8-e28f-5596-fa66-114317b7a414@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Program Last Call Results and Next Steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 02:43:29 -0000 Dear Chairs & all, This evening I completed an editorial review of the entire document, in the process finding a relatively small number of minor errors, infelicities, and inconsistencies. Fixes for these matters will be included in the next version. Those interested can find them here: https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/153/commits/fd05f83f69e959c7d05f77ecbd6c55c23eaa362e I'll wait to hear from the chairs before submitting version -11. Peter On 1/31/22 4:22 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear all, > > Program last call has now closed. > > We received one set of editorial comments from Brian Carpenter.  I want > to detail the proposed changes here, and their disposition for the next > draft, which we are asking Peter to post now.  Once posted, we will > forward that draft to the IAB for further processing. > >> "3.1.1.2. Participation >> ...This includes participants in the IETF and IRTF, IAB and IESG >> members, individuals who use RFCs in procurement decisions, authors of >> RFCs and Internet-Drafts, developers of tools used to author RFCs, >> scholarly researchers, and so on." >> >> I notice that implementers of code or hardware based on RFCs are not >> listed. That seems like a significant omission. > > Peter has expanded the list for consultation as follows: > >> This includes but is not limited to participants in the IETF and >> >> IRTF, members of the IAB and IESG, developers of software or hardware >> >> systems that implement RFCs, authors of RFCs and Internet-Drafts, >> >> developers of tools used to author or edit RFCs, individuals who >> >> use RFCs in procurement decisions, scholarly researchers, and >> >> representatives of standards development organizations other than >> >> the IETF and IRTF. The IETF LLC Board members, staff and contractors >> >> (especially representatives of the RFC Production Center), and the >> >> IETF Executive Director are invited to participate as community >> >> members in the RSWG to the extent permitted by any relevant IETF LLC >> >> policies. Members of the RSAB are also expected to participate >> >> actively. > > This text represents a move of some text from later in the draft, but > the normative constructs have not changed. > >> >> The explanation might or might not be actionable." >> >> I think that sentence might or might not be actionable. In other >> words, it's a no-op. > > This is text that we have discussed: the implication intended here is > that the proposal taken as a whole may be so flawed that no textual > change would correct it.  For example: “All future RFCs SHALL only be > published in Klingon". > > Peter has proposed the following change: > >> Nevertheless, the RSWG might not be able to >> >> come to consensus on modifications that will address the RSAB member's >> >> concern. >> > A missing parenthesis as noted, and a spelling error was corrected.  An > internal reference {#} was added.  Some spacing was modified. > > These represent the entirety of proposed changes to the text. > > Eliot > > From nobody Mon Jan 31 21:35:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA353A14C7 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:35:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at 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[77.58.144.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 2115ZBOL377599 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Feb 2022 06:35:11 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1643693712; bh=+lkDqcgM30GjPNZj1TN20X6HGSLqSGuKoJfpFc+KjrI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jHba3AE+hT2HFDjIXxcO1oK2j9xkARQxpLX85beYqr1qO8cWjymMkC4ma4Lr2OIPf L4lFtVLD54SG8Jw0HPtrq0XL0O4XJaaQOgtjFF8KE7ioZ6gnY6ARxCyz4LwvzoqL7R 9lBqJhy8n0L4kM3pnDyY6pQIL/brrdUQSTOyz3PU= Message-ID: <2dc88536-4d36-b8af-fc1f-0ec0cf5596d6@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 06:35:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen References: <7bfd8aa8-e28f-5596-fa66-114317b7a414@lear.ch> <44675dd7-a908-c35e-5ab0-5448599ab021@stpeter.im> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <44675dd7-a908-c35e-5ab0-5448599ab021@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------HbLrh0ndPvf0UmEpjgxs36aD" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Program Last Call Results and Next Steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 05:35:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------HbLrh0ndPvf0UmEpjgxs36aD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BPRGEmeEQIJ9H0Z0CDafkG3c"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Cc: Brian Rosen Message-ID: 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