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Subject: Re: [Simple] <note> in IMDN
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Actually, IMDNs, even the SIMPLE free-form fields, are fairly  
constrained.  Any mis-match is an opportunity to filter out bad  
IMDNs.  The <note> field has three problems:

1. It cannot be filtered, as any content could be real (which  
introduces the attack vector)

2. It cannot know what language it should use, and thus is not likely  
to be useful to the recipient

3. It has no protocol value, and is of no value to the UA


So, if something has no useful protocol value and introduces a spam  
opportunity, why would we want to include it?



On May 21, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

> Its kind of late to be thinking about this now. THe problem is  
> pervasive
> in MSRP.
>
> In SIP there are lots of unconstrained fields. But they are all
> constrained by the overall size of the message, and people commonly  
> put
> limits on that.
>
> In MSRP, because of chunking, a single MSRP message can be gigabytes
> long. So using that to bound the unconstrained parts of the headers
> doesn't work very well.
>
> A robust implementation might take a similar approach - define its own
> limit on the total message size, excluding the body. Then it could
> constrain all the unconstrained fields to fit within it.
>
> But picking on one header isn't a solution to the problem. Either  
> assume
> the developers will be able to deal with it, or else do and MSRPv2  
> that
> eliminates all unconstrained fields.
>
> 	Paul
>
> Dean Willis wrote:
>> On May 13, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Hisham Khartabil wrote:
>>
>>> Can you explain how it is an attack vector?
>>
>>
>> Unconstrained rich content is one of the most easily exploited attack
>> vectors.
>>
>> Buffer overrun attacks as well as all of the typical MIME compound-
>> component attacks are likely. For example, the common JPEG
>> vulnerabilities might be exploitable:
>>
>> http://www.news.com/Image-virus-spreads-via-chat/2100-7349_3-5390463.html
>>
>>
>> Or the content-execution weakness that caused the Macintosh Safari
>> browse to be most easily exploited in recent hacking contests:
>>
>> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/safari-exploit-gives-hackers-full-control-of-your-iphone/
>>
>>
>> There have also been exploits against QuickTime, Flash, and most  
>> other
>> plugin components from time to time.
>>
>> --
>> Dean
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simple mailing list
>> Simple@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Simple mailing list
> Simple@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple

_______________________________________________
Simple mailing list
Simple@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


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Subject: Re: [Simple] <note> in IMDN
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On May 23, 2008, at 2:21 PM, Eric Burger wrote:

> Actually, IMDNs, even the SIMPLE free-form fields, are fairly
> constrained.  Any mis-match is an opportunity to filter out bad
> IMDNs.  The <note> field has three problems:
>
> 1. It cannot be filtered, as any content could be real (which
> introduces the attack vector)
>
> 2. It cannot know what language it should use, and thus is not likely
> to be useful to the recipient
>
> 3. It has no protocol value, and is of no value to the UA
>
>
> So, if something has no useful protocol value and introduces a spam
> opportunity, why would we want to include it?
>

If something has no useful protocol value, even if it _does_no_harm,  
why would we want to include it?

IMHO, there is no need to prove a vector for harm, if we are fairly  
certain there is no vector for _utility_.

(Note that I am agnostic on whether  the field is truly useless--I am  
merely commenting on the form of the argument.)


>
>
> On May 21, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>> Its kind of late to be thinking about this now. THe problem is
>> pervasive
>> in MSRP.
>>
>> In SIP there are lots of unconstrained fields. But they are all
>> constrained by the overall size of the message, and people commonly
>> put
>> limits on that.
>>
>> In MSRP, because of chunking, a single MSRP message can be gigabytes
>> long. So using that to bound the unconstrained parts of the headers
>> doesn't work very well.
>>
>> A robust implementation might take a similar approach - define its  
>> own
>> limit on the total message size, excluding the body. Then it could
>> constrain all the unconstrained fields to fit within it.
>>
>> But picking on one header isn't a solution to the problem. Either
>> assume
>> the developers will be able to deal with it, or else do and MSRPv2
>> that
>> eliminates all unconstrained fields.
>>
>> 	Paul
>>
>> Dean Willis wrote:
>>> On May 13, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Hisham Khartabil wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you explain how it is an attack vector?
>>>
>>>
>>> Unconstrained rich content is one of the most easily exploited  
>>> attack
>>> vectors.
>>>
>>> Buffer overrun attacks as well as all of the typical MIME compound-
>>> component attacks are likely. For example, the common JPEG
>>> vulnerabilities might be exploitable:
>>>
>>> http://www.news.com/Image-virus-spreads-via-chat/2100-7349_3-5390463.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Or the content-execution weakness that caused the Macintosh Safari
>>> browse to be most easily exploited in recent hacking contests:
>>>
>>> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/safari-exploit-gives-hackers-full-control-of-your-iphone/
>>>
>>>
>>> There have also been exploits against QuickTime, Flash, and most
>>> other
>>> plugin components from time to time.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dean
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Simple mailing list
>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simple mailing list
>> Simple@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>
> _______________________________________________
> Simple mailing list
> Simple@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple

_______________________________________________
Simple mailing list
Simple@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:19:06 +1000
From: "Hisham Khartabil" <hisham.khartabil@gmail.com>
To: "Ben Campbell" <ben@estacado.net>
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Cc: Eric Burger <eburger@sipforum.org>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com>,
	simple@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Simple] <note> in IMDN
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The field is not useless. It carries extra information (a reason
phrase, if you like) as to why the IM delivery resulted in an error or
still being processed, etc.

Hisham

2008/6/4 Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>:
>
> On May 23, 2008, at 2:21 PM, Eric Burger wrote:
>
>> Actually, IMDNs, even the SIMPLE free-form fields, are fairly
>> constrained.  Any mis-match is an opportunity to filter out bad
>> IMDNs.  The <note> field has three problems:
>>
>> 1. It cannot be filtered, as any content could be real (which
>> introduces the attack vector)
>>
>> 2. It cannot know what language it should use, and thus is not likely
>> to be useful to the recipient
>>
>> 3. It has no protocol value, and is of no value to the UA
>>
>>
>> So, if something has no useful protocol value and introduces a spam
>> opportunity, why would we want to include it?
>>
>
> If something has no useful protocol value, even if it _does_no_harm,
> why would we want to include it?
>
> IMHO, there is no need to prove a vector for harm, if we are fairly
> certain there is no vector for _utility_.
>
> (Note that I am agnostic on whether  the field is truly useless--I am
> merely commenting on the form of the argument.)
>
>
>>
>>
>> On May 21, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>
>>> Its kind of late to be thinking about this now. THe problem is
>>> pervasive
>>> in MSRP.
>>>
>>> In SIP there are lots of unconstrained fields. But they are all
>>> constrained by the overall size of the message, and people commonly
>>> put
>>> limits on that.
>>>
>>> In MSRP, because of chunking, a single MSRP message can be gigabytes
>>> long. So using that to bound the unconstrained parts of the headers
>>> doesn't work very well.
>>>
>>> A robust implementation might take a similar approach - define its
>>> own
>>> limit on the total message size, excluding the body. Then it could
>>> constrain all the unconstrained fields to fit within it.
>>>
>>> But picking on one header isn't a solution to the problem. Either
>>> assume
>>> the developers will be able to deal with it, or else do and MSRPv2
>>> that
>>> eliminates all unconstrained fields.
>>>
>>>      Paul
>>>
>>> Dean Willis wrote:
>>>> On May 13, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Hisham Khartabil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can you explain how it is an attack vector?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unconstrained rich content is one of the most easily exploited
>>>> attack
>>>> vectors.
>>>>
>>>> Buffer overrun attacks as well as all of the typical MIME compound-
>>>> component attacks are likely. For example, the common JPEG
>>>> vulnerabilities might be exploitable:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.com/Image-virus-spreads-via-chat/2100-7349_3-5390463.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or the content-execution weakness that caused the Macintosh Safari
>>>> browse to be most easily exploited in recent hacking contests:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/safari-exploit-gives-hackers-full-control-of-your-iphone/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There have also been exploits against QuickTime, Flash, and most
>>>> other
>>>> plugin components from time to time.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dean
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Simple mailing list
>>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Simple mailing list
>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simple mailing list
>> Simple@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>
> _______________________________________________
> Simple mailing list
> Simple@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>
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To: "Hisham Khartabil" <hisham.khartabil@gmail.com>
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Cc: simple@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Simple] <note> in IMDN
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Except:

1. I have no clue what language to use in the message, as a human will  
read it.

2. The field is free-form, so is not amenable for automaton processing.

3. The field is free-form, but could be read by the UAC, so it will  
invite vendors to put proprietary information into the field.  Then  
users expect particular behaviors when these values are present.   
I.e., who needs the IETF to review protocol element use?  Let the  
random implementor of the day build a protocol on top of IMDN!

4. The field is free-form and displayed to the user, so it will invite  
spam.

If it is useful from a protocol perspective, then create an IANA  
registry of values.


On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:19 AM, Hisham Khartabil wrote:

> The field is not useless. It carries extra information (a reason
> phrase, if you like) as to why the IM delivery resulted in an error or
> still being processed, etc.
>
> Hisham
>
> 2008/6/4 Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>:
>>
>> On May 23, 2008, at 2:21 PM, Eric Burger wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, IMDNs, even the SIMPLE free-form fields, are fairly
>>> constrained.  Any mis-match is an opportunity to filter out bad
>>> IMDNs.  The <note> field has three problems:
>>>
>>> 1. It cannot be filtered, as any content could be real (which
>>> introduces the attack vector)
>>>
>>> 2. It cannot know what language it should use, and thus is not  
>>> likely
>>> to be useful to the recipient
>>>
>>> 3. It has no protocol value, and is of no value to the UA
>>>
>>>
>>> So, if something has no useful protocol value and introduces a spam
>>> opportunity, why would we want to include it?
>>>
>>
>> If something has no useful protocol value, even if it _does_no_harm,
>> why would we want to include it?
>>
>> IMHO, there is no need to prove a vector for harm, if we are fairly
>> certain there is no vector for _utility_.
>>
>> (Note that I am agnostic on whether  the field is truly useless--I am
>> merely commenting on the form of the argument.)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 21, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its kind of late to be thinking about this now. THe problem is
>>>> pervasive
>>>> in MSRP.
>>>>
>>>> In SIP there are lots of unconstrained fields. But they are all
>>>> constrained by the overall size of the message, and people commonly
>>>> put
>>>> limits on that.
>>>>
>>>> In MSRP, because of chunking, a single MSRP message can be  
>>>> gigabytes
>>>> long. So using that to bound the unconstrained parts of the headers
>>>> doesn't work very well.
>>>>
>>>> A robust implementation might take a similar approach - define its
>>>> own
>>>> limit on the total message size, excluding the body. Then it could
>>>> constrain all the unconstrained fields to fit within it.
>>>>
>>>> But picking on one header isn't a solution to the problem. Either
>>>> assume
>>>> the developers will be able to deal with it, or else do and MSRPv2
>>>> that
>>>> eliminates all unconstrained fields.
>>>>
>>>>     Paul
>>>>
>>>> Dean Willis wrote:
>>>>> On May 13, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Hisham Khartabil wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you explain how it is an attack vector?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unconstrained rich content is one of the most easily exploited
>>>>> attack
>>>>> vectors.
>>>>>
>>>>> Buffer overrun attacks as well as all of the typical MIME  
>>>>> compound-
>>>>> component attacks are likely. For example, the common JPEG
>>>>> vulnerabilities might be exploitable:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.news.com/Image-virus-spreads-via-chat/2100-7349_3-5390463.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or the content-execution weakness that caused the Macintosh Safari
>>>>> browse to be most easily exploited in recent hacking contests:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/safari-exploit-gives-hackers-full-control-of-your-iphone/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There have also been exploits against QuickTime, Flash, and most
>>>>> other
>>>>> plugin components from time to time.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dean
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Simple mailing list
>>>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Simple mailing list
>>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Simple mailing list
>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simple mailing list
>> Simple@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>

_______________________________________________
Simple mailing list
Simple@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


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From: Aki Niemi <aki.niemi@nokia.com>
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Organization: Nokia Devices R&D
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ke, 2008-06-04 kello 05:31 -0400, ext Eric Burger kirjoitti:
> 3. The field is free-form, but could be read by the UAC, so it will  
> invite vendors to put proprietary information into the field.  Then  
> users expect particular behaviors when these values are present.   
> I.e., who needs the IETF to review protocol element use?  Let the  
> random implementor of the day build a protocol on top of IMDN!

Hold on, protocol police! One can always add an entire element:

<RemoteProcedureCall>Phone.explode()</RemoteProcedureCall>

If they really wanted to use IMDN to carry a protocol (I can't
understand why anyone in their right mind would, though).

Cheers,
Aki

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From mekb@talk21.com  Wed Jun  4 21:05:17 2008
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Proven enhancing secret! http://oiout.



From c.schroeder@nitro-software.de  Fri Jun  6 08:40:17 2008
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An IWC watch is a uniquely handcrafted time piece that combines a classical element with a timeless elegance. Its appeal comes from their traditional beauty and their superb performance. But this sophistication has always come with a high price tag. Except of course, when you buy an IWC replica. And Prestige Replicas has dozens of IWC replica watches at prices so incredibly low that you can rest assured they won't last long! So, why not head over to Prestige Replicas right now and take a look at their IWC watches? After all, isn't it time you wore a splendid wristwatch without having to spend a fortune?
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From c.jordan@aldridge-jordan.com  Fri Jun  6 23:38:30 2008
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A Breitling watch is a statement not just of wealth, but of sophistication... it's a way to show the world that you are a man in charge of your life and that you know exactly what you want. Surely, among those things you do want is a bigger budget. So, why not kill two birds with one stone? Getting a replica Breitling wristwatch and keeping your budget practically untouched!
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From c.glaeser@cglaeser.de  Sun Jun  8 10:34:28 2008
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A Breitling watch is a statement not just of wealth, but of sophistication... it's a way to show the world that you are a man in charge of your life and that you know exactly what you want. Surely, among those things you do want is a bigger budget. So, why not kill two birds with one stone? Getting a replica Breitling wristwatch and keeping your budget practically untouched!
http://vitagexamug77.blogspot.com/

Thanks to Prestige Replicas it is now possible! With an astonishing collection of replica Breitling timepieces at rock bottom prices, Selissia will make the delights of quality watches lovers. It offers excellent quality timepieces at unsurpassed prices; a privacy-assured guarantee, incomparable customer service, and what's better: 15% off when you buy two watches!
http://vitagexamug77.blogspot.com/






From ca01@51translation.com  Sun Jun  8 17:26:11 2008
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When it comes down to getting a replica Rolex watch, there is just one place that offers its visitors and customers the highest quality available: Prestige Replicas. This unparalleled online store specializes in top of the line replica watches with unsurpassed performance, and bearing every marking that the genuine timepieces have. Every replica watch that Prestige Replicas carries, is made of solid stainless steel and features a sapphire crystal glass. What's more, every Rolex in store displays the green Rolex sticker with model number and logo on it. Just because you're buying a replica, don't settle for a low quality product. There are only a handful of online stores that offer the highest quality Rolex replica watches and Prestige Replicas is among them, and with the lowest available prices!
http://xegihemawik03.blogspot.com/





From c.isopp@morgenbau.net  Mon Jun  9 04:35:46 2008
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When it comes down to getting a replica Rolex watch, there is just one place that offers its visitors and customers the highest quality available: Prestige Replicas. This unparalleled online store specializes in top of the line replica watches with unsurpassed performance, and bearing every marking that the genuine timepieces have. Every replica watch that Prestige Replicas carries, is made of solid stainless steel and features a sapphire crystal glass. What's more, every Rolex in store displays the green Rolex sticker with model number and logo on it. Just because you're buying a replica, don't settle for a low quality product. There are only a handful of online stores that offer the highest quality Rolex replica watches and Prestige Replicas is among them, and with the lowest available prices!
http://kewimovyduf65.blogspot.com/





From c.tippmann@seasell.com  Tue Jun 10 02:02:31 2008
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Looking for superior quality replica watches? Then welcome to the newly redesigned Prestige Replicas, home of the best reproduction Rolex Sportmodel watches on the whole web! Prestige Replicas offers a tremendous selection of Rolex replica timepieces for both men and women, all of them featuring the original manufacturer markings along with a myriad of details that make these watches look so much like the brand new Rolexes that even the experts are having a hard time differentiating them!
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So, come visit Prestige Replicas and enjoy not only the most beautiful Rolex Sportmodel replica watches at unbelievable prices, but also get an extra 15% off when you buy two!
http://zekukamexys85.blogspot.com/






From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Jun 10 06:08:53 2008
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
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Cc: simple chair <simple-chairs@tools.ietf.org>,
	Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>,
	simple mailing list <simple@ietf.org>,
	RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: [Simple] Protocol Action: 'Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)
 extension for Partial Notification of Presence Information' to Proposed
 Standard
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The IESG has approved the following documents:

- 'An Extensible Markup Language (XML) Patch Operations Framework 
   Utilizing XML Path Language (XPath) Selectors '
   <draft-ietf-simple-xml-patch-ops-04.txt> as a Proposed Standard
- 'Presence Information Data format (PIDF) Extension for Partial 
   Presence '
   <draft-ietf-simple-partial-pidf-format-10.txt> as a Proposed Standard
- 'Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) extension for Partial Notification 
   of Presence Information '
   <draft-ietf-simple-partial-notify-10.txt> as a Proposed Standard
- 'Publication of Partial Presence Information '
   <draft-ietf-simple-partial-publish-07.txt> as a Proposed Standard

These documents are products of the SIP for Instant Messaging and 
Presence Leveraging Extensions Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Jon Peterson and Cullen Jennings.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-partial-notify-10.txt

Technical Summary
 
This document set provides a new capability for SIMPLE: partial
publications and notifications. Partial publications and notifications are
updates to previous transmitted presence documents which omit redundant
information, thereby saving bandwidth and processing. Both of these rely
on a common partial presence document format, 'application/pidf-diff+xml'.
These diffs are applied to existing presence documents through the
patching technique described in the xml-patch-ops document.
 
Working Group Summary
 
The working group supports the advancement of these specifications, and in
fact much protocol work inside and outside the IETF relies on this.
 
Protocol Quality
 
These documents were reviewed for the IESG by Jon Peterson. The PROTO
shepherd is Robert Sparks. Apps Area review of the XML-patch-ops document
was provided by Dave Crocker. Gen-ART review of XMLpatch-ops was provided
by Joel Halpern.

_______________________________________________
Simple mailing list
Simple@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


From c.vicenzetto@chario.it  Tue Jun 10 11:19:52 2008
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Subject: Looking for a replica watch?
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From c.martin@gfnmbh.de  Wed Jun 11 14:45:02 2008
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From ca@moaaz.ca  Thu Jun 12 04:13:34 2008
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From bergeron@soft.fujitsu.com  Fri Jun 13 01:27:35 2008
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From: "graham septimus" <bergeron@soft.fujitsu.com>
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Subject: Your pants' key from her bedroom!
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:40:37 +0000
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From: Salvatore Loreto <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [Simple] GRUU in presence document
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Hi there,

we have noticed that currently there isn't any way to use presence to 
identify the unique device.
There was something mentioned in an earlier version of the gruu draft : 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sip-gruu-10#section-4.3
but it has been removed.

The definition of the device ID in RFC 4479 suites well with the gruu, 
however the <contact> element
in the <tuple> element is a URI and the question is how the URI 
parameters will be handled.

We have identified several possible ways to use presence to identify the 
unique device, that we would like to discuss in the wg
The possible way are the following:

1) Use the public GRUU as the value of the contact element of the 
presence document.

2) Include the sip-instance of the public GRUU as a SIP-instance 
attribute in the device element of the presence document.
The GRUU is obtained by concatenating the aor of the contact element and 
the SIP-instance attribute in the device element.

3) Define a new element in the service element to define the public GRUU.

4) Use the sip-instance as the device-id of the device element.
   The GRUU is obtained by concatenating the AoR of the contact element 
and the device-id attribute in the service element containing the sip 
instance.
   The device element does not have to be included if not needed for 
other purposes.


Here the drawbacks of the different proposal we have identified so far:

Alt. 1 will change the existing meaning (if any) of the contact element 
and does not allow concatenation of service elements in case of multiple 
devices.

Alt. 2 requires a new device attribute to be defined, but has the 
advantage that multiple devices are supported by one service element and 
if needed;
         the deviceID can be different from the sip-instance of the GRUU.

Alt. 3 requires an extension to the schema and does not really give any 
advantage to alt 4 except that sip-instance and deviceID may be different.

Alt. 4 is schema compliant and supports multiple devices using the same 
service element. Requires that the deviceID is set to the sip-instance 
of GRUU

So, our proposal is to go for alternative 4 since it has the best fit 
with current standard and is assumed to be proposed to standardize GRUU 
for presence.
The <contact> and <deviceID> of the <service> element are optional but 
are mandatory to identify the GRUU.


regards
Sal
_______________________________________________
Simple mailing list
Simple@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jun 16 01:06:59 2008
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From: Gustavo <ggb@tid.es>
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Subject: [Simple] New draft submitted: "Attention Request (POKE) for Instant
	Messaging"
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Hi,

We have submitted a new draft specifying a method to send attention 
requests in a SIP messaging system.  Any comment, suggestion or 
criticism will be more than welcomed.

Regards,
G.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action:draft-garcia-simple-poke-00.txt
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:30:04 +0200
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
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To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <i-d-announce@ietf.org>

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.

         Title           : Attention Request (POKE) for Instant Messaging
         Author(s)       : G. Garcia, J. Martin
         Filename        : draft-garcia-simple-poke-00.txt
         Pages           : 12
         Date            : 2008-06-16

This document specifies a message content type and XML format to
request attention from a targeted user.  This feature is usually
known as poke, nudge or buzz in existing messaging platforms.  Its
primary use is as an additional instant messaging capability that can
be sent in the middle of a instant messaging session or in a
standalone message at any time.  This message also allows the sender
to indicate the preferred realization of the attention request:
vibrator, light, tone, media or text.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-garcia-simple-poke-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

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Cc: 'SIMPLE mailing list' <simple@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Simple] GRUU in presence document
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inline...

Salvatore Loreto wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> we have noticed that currently there isn't any way to use presence to 
> identify the unique device.
> There was something mentioned in an earlier version of the gruu draft : 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sip-gruu-10#section-4.3
> but it has been removed.
> 
> The definition of the device ID in RFC 4479 suites well with the gruu, 
> however the <contact> element
> in the <tuple> element is a URI and the question is how the URI 
> parameters will be handled.

I don't understand the point of the above sentence. A GRUU is also a 
URI. And URI parameters are the business of the owner/constructor of the 
URI, not those that simply send requests to the URI. The client of a URI 
should be opaque to any URI parameters it may or may not contain.

> We have identified several possible ways to use presence to identify the 
> unique device, that we would like to discuss in the wg
> The possible way are the following:
> 
> 1) Use the public GRUU as the value of the contact element of the 
> presence document.

That is certainly a good option.

> 2) Include the sip-instance of the public GRUU as a SIP-instance 
> attribute in the device element of the presence document.
> The GRUU is obtained by concatenating the aor of the contact element and 
> the SIP-instance attribute in the device element.

Are you suggesting that the client of the take elements from different 
parts of the presence document and *assemble* them into a URI?

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!


That is terrible!!!

Its doubly terrible that you are suggesting that the resulting assembly 
be called a gruu.

The algorithms for constructing gruus are the sole responsibility of the 
target home proxy. Other parties should not presume to know how those 
algorithms operate.

> 3) Define a new element in the service element to define the public GRUU.

Why?

> 4) Use the sip-instance as the device-id of the device element.
>    The GRUU is obtained by concatenating the AoR of the contact element 
> and the device-id attribute in the service element containing the sip 
> instance.
>    The device element does not have to be included if not needed for 
> other purposes.

Same comment as for 2.

> Here the drawbacks of the different proposal we have identified so far:
> 
> Alt. 1 will change the existing meaning (if any) of the contact element 

In what way does it change the meaning?

> and does not allow concatenation of service elements in case of multiple 
> devices.

What? Are you talking about presence composition policies? Concatenation 
of tuples is one of many possible composition policies. This doesn't 
change that. It does result in a number of mutually exclusive 
alternative presence attributes - one per end device. If you want some 
other sort of composition policy you can do it. If you want to merge the 
presence attributes from the multiple devices into a single tuple you 
can do that too, but then you will have to replace the contact with 
something (e.g. the AOR) that represents all the incorporated UAs.

> Alt. 2 requires a new device attribute to be defined, but has the 
> advantage that multiple devices are supported by one service element and 
> if needed;
>          the deviceID can be different from the sip-instance of the GRUU.
> 
> Alt. 3 requires an extension to the schema and does not really give any 
> advantage to alt 4 except that sip-instance and deviceID may be different.
> 
> Alt. 4 is schema compliant and supports multiple devices using the same 
> service element. Requires that the deviceID is set to the sip-instance 
> of GRUU

I stated my objections to 2 and 4 above. I just don't understand 3.

> So, our proposal is to go for alternative 4 since it has the best fit 
> with current standard and is assumed to be proposed to standardize GRUU 
> for presence.
> The <contact> and <deviceID> of the <service> element are optional but 
> are mandatory to identify the GRUU.

IMO a *client* should not have to do more than pick a tuple with desired 
properties from the presence document and then send a request to the URI 
obtained from the contact of that tuple. If the client normally would 
use caller preferences when initiating the call without presence, then 
it should still do so in this case. But IMO that caller should be making 
no further assumptions about how to address the target.

Before getting into details about this, I think you must have some 
unstated assumptions about how the presence is published and composed. 
If you can explain those further maybe a solution will be clearer.

	Thanks,
	Paul
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	<simple@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Simple] [Standards] New draft submitted: "Attention Request
 (POKE) for Instant Messaging"
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On 06/16/2008 8:05 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
> On Mon Jun 16 09:07:32 2008, Gustavo wrote:
>> We have submitted a new draft specifying a method to send attention
>> requests in a SIP messaging system.  Any comment, suggestion or
>> criticism will be more than welcomed.
> 
> I note you've referenced XEP-0224. I think it'd be useful if both
> protocols actually used the same XML namespace, so I'll suggest that on
> the XMPP standards list - I think that XMPP could probably still change,
> so picking the namespace from this document may be most sensible, but
> I'm hoping people will let me know if XEP-0224 has already been widely
> implemented.

I would not say that XEP-0224 has been implemented widely yet.

> I'm not entirely sold on the neccessity to be able to play tunes with
> the attention request whilst vibrating their laptop - presumably most
> useful for added effect on the low notes - and in more general terms, I
> prefer the concepts of XEP-0224, Section 6 - quite how the recipient
> should have their attention gained should be fully under the control of
> the recipient.

+1 to that.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
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_______________________________________________
Simple mailing list
Simple@ietf.org
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From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jun 16 09:58:15 2008
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:58:47 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Cc: jlmp@tid.es, XMPP Extension Discussion List <standards@xmpp.org>
Subject: Re: [Simple] [Standards] New draft submitted: "Attention Request
 (POKE) for Instant Messaging"
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On 06/16/2008 10:37 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 06/16/2008 8:05 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
>> On Mon Jun 16 09:07:32 2008, Gustavo wrote:
>>> We have submitted a new draft specifying a method to send attention
>>> requests in a SIP messaging system.  Any comment, suggestion or
>>> criticism will be more than welcomed.
>> I note you've referenced XEP-0224. I think it'd be useful if both
>> protocols actually used the same XML namespace, so I'll suggest that on
>> the XMPP standards list - I think that XMPP could probably still change,
>> so picking the namespace from this document may be most sensible, but
>> I'm hoping people will let me know if XEP-0224 has already been widely
>> implemented.
> 
> I would not say that XEP-0224 has been implemented widely yet.

Andreas Monitzer reports that XEP-0224 has been implemented in both
Pidgin (formerly Gaim) and Adium:

http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2008-June/019130.html

>> I'm not entirely sold on the neccessity to be able to play tunes with
>> the attention request whilst vibrating their laptop - presumably most
>> useful for added effect on the low notes - and in more general terms, I
>> prefer the concepts of XEP-0224, Section 6 - quite how the recipient
>> should have their attention gained should be fully under the control of
>> the recipient.
> 
> +1 to that.

If we go that route and don't include all the bells and whistles (and
flashing lights and vibrations and whatever all else is currently in
draft-garcia-simple-poke-00), then presumably we could all use the same
XML schema and namespace. XEP-0224 is still experimental, so the XMPP
Registrar has not yet issued a permanent namespace for that extension.
However, this spec could easily be moved forward in the XSF's standards
process since it's already implemented. Alternatively, we could defer to
the work in the SIMPLE WG. I don't have a strong preference in that
regard. However, if the SIMPLE WG proceeds with a more complex solution
then folks in the XMPP community might go with a simpler solution and we
could gateway the basic functionality without supporting lights and
tones and such in XMPP.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


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Subject: Re: [Simple] [Standards] New draft submitted: "Attention Request
 (POKE) for Instant Messaging"
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Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 06/16/2008 10:37 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 06/16/2008 8:05 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
>>> On Mon Jun 16 09:07:32 2008, Gustavo wrote:
>>>> We have submitted a new draft specifying a method to send attention
>>>> requests in a SIP messaging system.  Any comment, suggestion or
>>>> criticism will be more than welcomed.
>>> I note you've referenced XEP-0224. I think it'd be useful if both
>>> protocols actually used the same XML namespace, so I'll suggest that on
>>> the XMPP standards list - I think that XMPP could probably still change,
>>> so picking the namespace from this document may be most sensible, but
>>> I'm hoping people will let me know if XEP-0224 has already been widely
>>> implemented.
>> I would not say that XEP-0224 has been implemented widely yet.
> 
> Andreas Monitzer reports that XEP-0224 has been implemented in both
> Pidgin (formerly Gaim) and Adium:
> 
> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2008-June/019130.html
> 
>>> I'm not entirely sold on the neccessity to be able to play tunes with
>>> the attention request whilst vibrating their laptop - presumably most
>>> useful for added effect on the low notes - and in more general terms, I
>>> prefer the concepts of XEP-0224, Section 6 - quite how the recipient
>>> should have their attention gained should be fully under the control of
>>> the recipient.
>> +1 to that.

This draft allows the sender to indicate preferences for the attention 
request, but the final decision is fully under the control of the 
recipient.

> If we go that route and don't include all the bells and whistles (and
> flashing lights and vibrations and whatever all else is currently in
> draft-garcia-simple-poke-00), then presumably we could all use the same
> XML schema and namespace. XEP-0224 is still experimental, so the XMPP
> Registrar has not yet issued a permanent namespace for that extension.
> However, this spec could easily be moved forward in the XSF's standards
> process since it's already implemented. Alternatively, we could defer to
> the work in the SIMPLE WG. I don't have a strong preference in that
> regard. However, if the SIMPLE WG proceeds with a more complex solution
> then folks in the XMPP community might go with a simpler solution and we
> could gateway the basic functionality without supporting lights and
> tones and such in XMPP.

We don't know yet the opinion of the SIMPLE WG, but the opinion of the 
draft authors is that being able to indicate the preferred realization 
of the attention request (e.g. vibration + lights) can provide an added 
value and it would be useful to standardize it to avoid incompatible 
proprietary extensions.

All the bells and whistles are optional, you can send a message with a 
simple "<poke/>".

We agree that using just one namespace and format for XMPP and SIMPLE 
could be valuable.

Gustavo
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From c.kirstenpfad@navigate-online.de  Fri Jun 20 21:08:51 2008
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From c.ryan@virtualbookkeeping.ca  Sat Jun 21 23:03:03 2008
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From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jun 23 02:39:11 2008
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Subject: [Simple] Flood control in the msrp-switch
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Hi,

I just read the currently published version of the draft and I was
wondering if it would be an idea to also address the following issue:

In the case where participants with different access-speeds are joined
in a chat-room, how should the msrp-switch deal with the situation when
it is not able to write data quickly enough to the slower participants?

For example a user with a relative fast connection could start to send a
large file into the chat-room which will cause the slower participants
to be blocked out from the chat-room until they managed to consume the
queued data. Also, should the switch just queue as long as it has memory
available?

They way this is solved in IRC for example is to slow down the sending
client by starting to respond slowly for each SEND request. However,
this is not a suitable solution for msrp, since it is indented to deal
with all sorts of content (including multi-media).

Maybe there is a need for a 'chat-type' attribute to distinguish between
for example 'conversation' or 'multi-media' rooms.

I think this is a realistic issue because of the following two reasons:

- SIP is well on its way to bridge between the 'internet-world' and the
'mobile-world'; two worlds with difference access-speeds
- simply because flooding a room could lead to a denial-of-service
attack in the case where the msrp-switch is forces to queue the data
which it is not able to send downwards.


Sebastian

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From c56c@c56c.com  Mon Jun 23 06:55:23 2008
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From c.garratt@ukfelder.co.uk  Mon Jun 23 19:28:13 2008
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Folks -

I'm working on the SIMPLE agenda for Dublin. If you have a topic you  
think really needs to be covered, please let me know.

RjS
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From c.schmitt@a-n-a.de  Wed Jun 25 00:00:56 2008
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Hi,

Based on some comments I received on the draft-blau-msrp-acm-00 draft,
I've updated the draft.=20

I've changed the name of the draft, so that is the reason the new
revision also has version number -00.

The draft can be found at:

http://users.piuha.net/cholmber/drafts/draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm-00.txt

I have also requested the chairs for agenda time in Dublin to discuss
the draft.

Regards,

Christer

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Based on some comments I received on =
the draft-blau-msrp-acm-00 draft, I've updated the draft. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I've changed the name of the draft, so =
that is the reason the new revision also has version number -00.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The draft can be found at:</FONT>
</P>

<P><A =
HREF=3D"http://users.piuha.net/cholmber/drafts/draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm=
-00.txt"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://users.piuha.net/cholmber/drafts/draft-blau-simple-m=
srp-acm-00.txt</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have also requested the chairs for =
agenda time in Dublin to discuss the draft.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Christer</FONT>
</P>

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_______________________________________________
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Simple@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple

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From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Jun 25 08:24:56 2008
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YES, please can we add this to the agenda?  This is very important for some=
 of us.

-hadriel

________________________________
From: simple-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:simple-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Christer Holmberg
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:08 AM
To: simple@ietf.org
Subject: [Simple] Draft: draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm-00.txt



Hi,

Based on some comments I received on the draft-blau-msrp-acm-00 draft, I've=
 updated the draft.

I've changed the name of the draft, so that is the reason the new revision =
also has version number -00.

The draft can be found at:

http://users.piuha.net/cholmber/drafts/draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm-00.txt

I have also requested the chairs for agenda time in Dublin to discuss the d=
raft.

Regards,

Christer

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>YES, please can we add this to the age=
nda?&nbsp;
This is very important for some of us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-hadriel<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font siz=
e=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
simple-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:simple-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Christer Holmberg<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 25, 20=
08
10:08 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> simple@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Simple] Draft:
draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Hi,</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Based
on some comments I received on the draft-blau-msrp-acm-00 draft, I've updat=
ed
the draft. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>I've
changed the name of the draft, so that is the reason the new revision also =
has
version number -00.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>The
draft can be found at:</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'=
><a
href=3D"http://users.piuha.net/cholmber/drafts/draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm-0=
0.txt"><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>ht=
tp://users.piuha.net/cholmber/drafts/draft-blau-simple-msrp-acm-00.txt</spa=
n></font></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>I
have also requested the chairs for agenda time in <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st=
1:place
 w:st=3D"on">Dublin</st1:place></st1:City> to discuss the draft.</span></fo=
nt> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Regards,</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Christer</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

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From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Jun 25 13:35:03 2008
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FYI.

----- Forwarded message from Internet-Drafts@ietf.org -----

From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-chat-01.txt 

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : Interworking between the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): One-to-One Text Chat
	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre, et al.
	Filename        : draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-chat-01.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2008-06-25

This document defines a bi-directional protocol mapping for the
exchange of instant messages in the context of a one-to-one chat
session between a user of the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and a
user of the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP).
Specifically for SIP text chat, this document specifies a mapping to
the Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP).

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-chat-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.


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Subject: Re: [Simple] Flood control in the msrp-switch
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Hi,

On 23 Jun 2008, at 11:39, Sebastian Dehne wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just read the currently published version of the draft and I was
> wondering if it would be an idea to also address the following issue:
>
> In the case where participants with different access-speeds are joined
> in a chat-room, how should the msrp-switch deal with the situation  
> when
> it is not able to write data quickly enough to the slower  
> participants?
>
> For example a user with a relative fast connection could start to  
> send a
> large file into the chat-room which will cause the slower participants
> to be blocked out from the chat-room until they managed to consume the
> queued data. Also, should the switch just queue as long as it has  
> memory
> available?
>
> They way this is solved in IRC for example is to slow down the sending
> client by starting to respond slowly for each SEND request. However,
> this is not a suitable solution for msrp, since it is indented to deal
> with all sorts of content (including multi-media).
>
> Maybe there is a need for a 'chat-type' attribute to distinguish  
> between
> for example 'conversation' or 'multi-media' rooms.
>
> I think this is a realistic issue because of the following two  
> reasons:
>
> - SIP is well on its way to bridge between the 'internet-world' and  
> the
> 'mobile-world'; two worlds with difference access-speeds
> - simply because flooding a room could lead to a denial-of-service
> attack in the case where the msrp-switch is forces to queue the data
> which it is not able to send downwards.
>
>
> Sebastian

This is an issue, and in my opinion not at all unsimilar to the one  
experienced when using MSRP relays. If a connected client keeps  
sending faster than a slow client can receive, the buffer size at the  
MSRP switch will grow infinitely large.

In the end the policy for this should be decided by whomever runs the  
MSRP chat switch, but I would imagine that the primary use for having  
such a service is just that, i.e. chat. That means it should probably  
not be used as some sort of large file distribution service. To this  
end I would imagine that throttling incoming connections would not be  
a bad idea.

If this incoming throttling rate is set to a reasonable value, one can  
also consider dropping connections to clients that cannot keep up with  
the amount of data sent to them. The alternative would be to drop part  
of the data to be sent to this slow client, which personally I would  
not prefer to do.

If you don't want to do either of this things, the only other thing I  
could think of is some fancy many-to-many congestion control  
algorithm, but really I wouldn't know where to begin dreaming that up...

Any thoughts?

Ruud Klaver
AG Projects
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Subject: Re: [Simple] Flood control in the msrp-switch
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> This is an issue, and in my opinion not at all unsimilar to the one 
> experienced when using MSRP relays. If a connected client keeps sending 
> faster than a slow client can receive, the buffer size at the MSRP 
> switch will grow infinitely large.
> 
> In the end the policy for this should be decided by whomever runs the 
> MSRP chat switch, but I would imagine that the primary use for having 
> such a service is just that, i.e. chat. That means it should probably 
> not be used as some sort of large file distribution service. To this end 
> I would imagine that throttling incoming connections would not be a bad 
> idea.
> 
> If this incoming throttling rate is set to a reasonable value, one can 
> also consider dropping connections to clients that cannot keep up with 
> the amount of data sent to them. The alternative would be to drop part 
> of the data to be sent to this slow client, which personally I would not 
> prefer to do.
> 
> If you don't want to do either of this things, the only other thing I 
> could think of is some fancy many-to-many congestion control algorithm, 
> but really I wouldn't know where to begin dreaming that up...
> 
> Any thoughts?
Hi Ruud,

I agree that dropping some of the data while keeping the connection 
alive is not an option. What you are saying makes sense to me. In other 
words, you could have throttling as a parameter which is set per 
chat-room. So a typical use-case would be to enable throttling for 
public rooms with many participants (no flooding of the channel 
possible) while private rooms for example, which DO want to have to 
possibility to transfer larger amount of data (such as sending a 
large-message to a grouup; as defined in the OMA SIMPLE-IM-TS 
specifications), it is disabled.

In any case where (whether throttling is enabled or disabled) and the 
msrp-switch still doesn't manage to write data to the slow participants, 
it simply has to kick them out of the room. The kicked-client could then 
choose to re-try be re-connection to the room or close the session.


Sebastian
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From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jun 30 07:53:01 2008
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Subject: Re: [Simple] Flood control in the msrp-switch
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Hi Sebastian,

On 26 Jun 2008, at 14:21, Sebastian Dehne wrote:

>> This is an issue, and in my opinion not at all unsimilar to the one  
>> experienced when using MSRP relays. If a connected client keeps  
>> sending faster than a slow client can receive, the buffer size at  
>> the MSRP switch will grow infinitely large.
>> In the end the policy for this should be decided by whomever runs  
>> the MSRP chat switch, but I would imagine that the primary use for  
>> having such a service is just that, i.e. chat. That means it should  
>> probably not be used as some sort of large file distribution  
>> service. To this end I would imagine that throttling incoming  
>> connections would not be a bad idea.
>> If this incoming throttling rate is set to a reasonable value, one  
>> can also consider dropping connections to clients that cannot keep  
>> up with the amount of data sent to them. The alternative would be  
>> to drop part of the data to be sent to this slow client, which  
>> personally I would not prefer to do.
>> If you don't want to do either of this things, the only other thing  
>> I could think of is some fancy many-to-many congestion control  
>> algorithm, but really I wouldn't know where to begin dreaming that  
>> up...
>> Any thoughts?
> Hi Ruud,
>
> I agree that dropping some of the data while keeping the connection  
> alive is not an option. What you are saying makes sense to me. In  
> other words, you could have throttling as a parameter which is set  
> per chat-room. So a typical use-case would be to enable throttling  
> for public rooms with many participants (no flooding of the channel  
> possible) while private rooms for example, which DO want to have to  
> possibility to transfer larger amount of data (such as sending a  
> large-message to a grouup; as defined in the OMA SIMPLE-IM-TS  
> specifications), it is disabled.
>
> In any case where (whether throttling is enabled or disabled) and  
> the msrp-switch still doesn't manage to write data to the slow  
> participants, it simply has to kick them out of the room. The kicked- 
> client could then choose to re-try be re-connection to the room or  
> close the session.
>
>
> Sebastian

This indeed what I was thinking of. Glad to see we're on the same  
frequency ;)

In any case, as an implementer, this seems to be the most workable  
solution to me.

Ruud Klaver
AG Projects
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From simple-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jun 30 08:18:31 2008
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Subject: Re: [Simple] Flood control in the msrp-switch
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> This indeed what I was thinking of. Glad to see we're on the same 
> frequency ;)
> 
> In any case, as an implementer, this seems to be the most workable 
> solution to me.

It would be nice to read this back in the simple-chat draft.

Sebastian
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